What is Fear? Memory, Emotion & the Malleability of the Mind | Daniela Schiller

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Daniella, thanks so much for
joining me.

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I am a huge fan of your work,
been following it for years, and

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it's a pleasure and privilege to
host you today.

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So yeah, thanks for joining me.
Yeah, thanks for having me.

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My pleasure.
I thought I'd break this episode

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into five parts, the first part
being Foundations, and within

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this I labeled it the Science of
Emotion and Memory.

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So I think let's get started
with that.

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And thereafter we'll move on to
things like from circuits to

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consciousness and and beyond.
So the first question I have is

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you've devoted your life to and
your career to studying the

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neural mechanisms of emotional
learning and memory.

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Could you share perhaps how your
journey from animal models of

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schizophrenia symptoms to human
studies of fear have shaped the

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questions that you asked today?
Yeah, it's been a long journey.

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It started really from interest
in the philosophy of mind and

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philosophy of science and
psychobiology.

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I don't know the brain basis of
behaviour.

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That's where I that's what I
studied in my undergrad and

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that's kind of naturally led to
cognitive neuroscience.

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So I did start with animal
models of schizophrenia, but

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that was an animal model of
emotional learning.

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So it already incorporated the
fear learning component.

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And then I switched to humans
and I can't say it was really

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planned it it just the way it it
went about.

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I guess I just persisted with
the the topics that seemed

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interesting to me.
And it always revolved around

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emotion, in particularly fear.
OK.

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And when when you think about a
fear memory and when it's first

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formed in the brain, what what
would you say is actually

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happening when this occurs,
let's say at a neural level and

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thereafter will slowly branch
out into what it's repercussions

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have on a social level?
Yeah.

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So the, I think the most
fundamental thing is the

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Organism identifying something
that is important and relevant

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in the environment to the
Organism and that can be in many

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domains.
So in this sense, you can put

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all sorts of emotions.
In the case of fear, it's a

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threat to the survival of the
Organism, something threatening.

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So the Organism is identifying
that and then the brain gets

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into a mode.
It can be a predictive mode

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because it's preparatory, so it
prepares the brain to or the

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Organism to address that
concern.

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One of your central findings is
that emotional responses are

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flexible.
So when somebody encounters

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something fear driven, let's say
something that leads to a post

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traumatic stress type of
disorder.

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I know you're not a
psychiatrist, so just a

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disclaimer of everyone out
there.

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How do you think that plasticity
of the brain and reducing this,

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let's say emotional non hard
wired feeling that's it just

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doesn't make sense.
But let's say the fact that it's

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not hard wired.
How does someone then apply this

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from a behavioral standpoint?
So because in your work you

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focus primarily on fear and the
fact that it's such a formative

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experience, but thereafter you
also work on memory and how we

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can change this, how malleable
we are.

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So it's a perfect blend, I think
of these two different

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components and how it can change
our experience of reality.

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You perhaps unpack that.
Sorry, it's a bit of a long

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winded question.
Yeah, no, it's something that's

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really fascinating that we see
in the course of evolution.

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So it starts from reflexive
responses.

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These are hardwired.
There's a just like a very in

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our refer to our responses.
There is, let's say, you know,

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threat or kind of predator.
And then the Organism is a set

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of responses, sometimes just
like one particular response to

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to that situation.
And with evolution, we kind of

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evolved to 1st learn that and
but to build on that additional,

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for example, stimuli that are,
as I mentioned, predictive.

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So now you can prepare ahead of
time.

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No, you don't need to wait for
the encounter itself.

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So you have these preparatory
responses and then environment

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is changing.
So you do need to update.

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You move from one environment to
another.

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Conditions change.
And so that's a very important

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capacity to flexibly modulate.
What is it that you learned?

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Because otherwise every bad
experience that you have will

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kind of change your life
forever.

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And we don't want to have that.
So we need that flexibility.

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So we have this rapporteur
responses that we can modify

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flexibly, you know, with time
and with condition and with

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additional information.
When I was doing my

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dissertation, I wrote a lot
about computational psychiatry,

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a lot of work from Cole Preston,
working on prior information,

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Bayesian brains, inference.
When when you look at those

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models is, is that something you
incorporate quite a bit in your

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work when you're working with
emotional effective science,

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neuroscience or are you
approaching this from a

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different angle?
Yeah, it's actually very close.

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So I myself in training, I'm not
a computational neuroscientist,

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but I do incorporate
computational models and

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computational thinking and I
consider emotional behaviour as

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algorithm, algorithmic
processes.

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So it's all about what the brain
is computing and how we execute

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it.
And we could use computational

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models to make prediction or to
define very accurately what are

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the components of of the
learning and what the brain is

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processing.
When, when I was going through

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your work, something that I had
the urge to ask you at some

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point was within this from
circuits to consciousness.

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As I said, Part 2 would be that,
that in neuroscience we're

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uncovering so much over the past
few decades.

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We've we've figured out so many
things.

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There are a few people trying to
figure out the connector and

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there are a few people trying to
figure out what consciousness

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is.
How close do you think that we

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are to connecting these
mechanisms, neurosciences

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understanding of emotional
control and mechanisms of what

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we call subjective experience?
Do you think we're able to

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encapsulate that within a
neuroscientific approach?

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Wow, you know, biggest question
of of the field, but.

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This podcast, at some point we
have to touch on it.

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The mind body problem is the.
Yeah.

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So I do have kind of an
optimistic response, but it it's

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very, very early on.
But what I can say is that we

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have made an effort to construct
what we call the human affectum.

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And this is an algorithmic,
actually algorithmic collection

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of all the component of
affective phenomena in humans.

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So this it's not a model or you
know, a theory, it's actually a

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framework that is a just
provides kind of a skeleton to

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incorporate all the theories or
actually a platform to create

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new theories.
But it gives this fundamental

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description of what is an
Organism, what is the purpose of

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the Organism?
And in this way what is the

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purpose of affect or emotion.
And by answering this, we can

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incorporate many, many theories
and explanations from the

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neurobiological level to
consciousness.

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So it does include feelings and
how feelings are incorporated

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into it.
And considering feelings,

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feelings are the content of
consciousness.

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So what we do is, is investigate
the content of consciousness and

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the structure of of that
information.

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And from this we can learn
something about consciousness,

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you know, why it exists and how
it is organized.

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So I think actually by
incorporating affect into

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consciousness can lead us step
further to understanding the

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link between the body, the brain
and and the mind.

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Daniela, are you familiar with
the work done by Professor Mark

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Solms here in Cape Town at UCT
University of Cape Town?

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Just by by name, but what
exactly?

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So it's interesting because what
you're talking about with

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effective science combining with
a consciousness research, he's

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he's theory of consciousness, he
calls it the felt uncertainty

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principle.
He works closely with, with

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people like Karpis and etcetera.
But he wrote, he wrote a book

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called The Hidden Spring, and
it's pretty cool because

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basically what he tries to say
is that feeling or affect is

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fundamentally what needs to be
within consciousness, trying to

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understand what consciousness
is.

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So he tries to take it back to
the brainstem as the fundamental

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source of this feeling because
everything that we experience

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has to be felt.
And so affect forms a

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fundamental basis of what
consciousness is, according to

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his theory of consciousness.
I just thought I'd bring that

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up.
Sorry, it's just a sidetrack.

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But with that being said, if
someone asks you, Daniela, what

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is consciousness or how do you
respond to that?

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Yeah, I think it's felt
experience.

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It's, you know, subjectively
felt, it's felt, right.

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It's felt experience.
That's kind of I think the the

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main way to to incorporate it.
And I completely agree with that

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approach because in a way, every
felt experience has valence.

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And in in this sense, affect is
incorporated because there's no,

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I mean, we tend to separate
cognition and affect as if, you

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know, perception is affect free,
but it's not.

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It's like every, every moment,
every thought, every felt

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experience is valenced, even if
it's, you know, close to 0 or,

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you know, neutral or something.
It's kind of, you know, so

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that's a level, that's a level
of valence.

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I think these, you know, these
domains are very, very

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interconnected and I think a
great deal of what slowed us

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down is this like a division of
fields and domains and then

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being studied separately.
It's it's the cortical

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fallacies, what some people
refer to it as just the this

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obsession with the fact that
this visual system has dominated

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us for so long.
We must somehow incorporate this

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into every theory of
consciousness.

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But you're right, I think, I
think that that feeling, that

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fault experience, that
subjective experience has to be

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incorporated into any theory of
consciousness within these

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systems.
I mean us as feeling individuals

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or beings.
It places us in an intriguing

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world.
We're social species.

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We have to interact, we have to
engage.

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The social navigation becomes so
important.

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And your lab has worked quite a
bit on the social space.

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What you call Can you see
exactly what social navigation

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means for most people and how we
can understand these complex

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human relationships within the
social space?

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So I think the easiest way to
begin to understand it is think

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about spatial navigation, right?
We walk in space and we do have

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the machinery in the brain to
map the physical environment

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where we are in a particular
place.

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So there are neurons place
cells, you know, that fire in a

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particular location or grid
cells that fire regularly in a

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pattern that creates kind of a
grid of the environment.

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And one idea is that it's not a
machinery dedicated only to the

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physical space, but to organise
information more generally.

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And in this sense it can be also
abstract information can be

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other sensory modalities.
For example, you can navigate in

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auditory space or olfactory
space whenever you have

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dimensions and social space also
has dimensions.

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So it's actually an excellent
case of navigation because if we

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take fundamental dimensions like
power and affiliation, which is

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you know, how much we get close
to each other and dominance,

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power relationships.
These two components are are

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fundamental for you see it
across species and in many

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psychological theories that
describe relationships.

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So whenever we interact, first
of all interaction is is

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required.
It's not a snapshot of your

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network or you know Facebook
friends or something.

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When we interact, we establish
that relationship or location of

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you relative to me, for example,
on these two dimensions.

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And as the interactions
continue, then there is a path

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created because people move in
relative power and affiliation.

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So if you model it like that,
you can now have coordinates

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like real coordinates and you
can have a geometric structures

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and vectors and angles to the
social space.

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And we theorized that, but then
we found that the brand is

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indeed tracking that we could
see changes in the brand that

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track with the coordinates.
And that I think also relates to

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to survival and well-being
because social others are part

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of the of the environment and
the organisms and work is

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existing in an environment and
interacting with the environment

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to make sense of the environment
and to survive.

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Well, you briefly touched on
this, but I mean the fact that

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this is a 2 dimensional
experience you and I

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experiencing right now with each
other, we're moving closer and

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closer to that being a permanent
version of reality.

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With the way social media works
today, how people are constantly

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stuck behind a screen, engaging
online, how do you think this is

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changing or perhaps causing
malfunctioning responses because

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of these new environments?
How is this impacting our

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brains?
Obviously I'm not talking from a

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mental health perspective
because you're not a

237
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,320
psychiatrist, but actually from
the neuroscientific research,

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what's happening?
Yeah, I think there's a

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00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,520
misconception of what our
relationship is.

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00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:26,200
So if you let's say just read
posts and post them yourselves

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00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,600
and you feel, let's say your
status is changing, that's a

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00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,480
whole different thing.
That these are not social

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00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,320
interactions and there's no
movement there.

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00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,800
There's movement of maybe
something else like, you know, 1

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dimensional liking status or or
something like that.

246
00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:51,880
But for a social space to to be
represented and for navigation

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in social space to occur, there
has to be actual interactions,

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like one-on-one interactions
that are not a one time

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interaction.
So in this sense, for example,

250
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let's say I know that someone is
really powerful.

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I don't know the president so
that that president is is not in

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my social space at the moment
because we didn't interact.

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And actually when we interact
that person, although I expected

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to that person to have a lot of
power, wouldn't necessarily, you

255
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,040
know, have it maybe like bodies
and all that.

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00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:33,080
So the interaction itself
defines the location in the

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00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,960
dimensions.
So I think there's a lot of in

258
00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:42,000
with social media, there's a
illusion of interaction and it

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00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,400
it doesn't have the benefits and
it's not encoded in the same

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way.
So I don't have direct empirical

261
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,080
evidence, but from what I see
from my experiments the the

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00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:55,760
tracking by the brain machinery
of of navigation, which is the

263
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,760
hippocampus and related regions
only occurs when you actually

264
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,880
interact, not when you hear
social information and or or

265
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,160
being passively engaged.
I think that's one of the things

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00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,720
that surprise people most is
when when you show them the

267
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,640
neuroscience beyond what's
different from an interaction in

268
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,560
person versus what we
experience.

269
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I think there were a few studies
done years ago that show how we

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even perceive people
differently.

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If someone puts on an outfit
that let's say they put in a

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00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,840
costume of a big on the street,
how much, how much less certain

273
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,840
parts of their brain react in
response to even seeing them.

274
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,600
So just a mere change of an
outfit can dehumanize a person.

275
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So.
So there's so many small things

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00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:38,600
about reality that we don't
really understand.

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00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,560
And because of our heuristics,
certain adaptations, processing

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00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,680
power very limited.
It's quite scary to consider the

279
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fact that as a social species,
we're becoming far less social,

280
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,320
and yet we think we're more
social than ever.

281
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:56,240
Does that concern you?
Yes, it's very concerning

282
00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:01,080
because the the illusion is very
convincing.

283
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,720
It's like, if you think about
it, we have relationship with

284
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:11,440
ourselves, right?
And we can quite easily create

285
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,240
mental representations of others
in our brain and have

286
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,800
interactions with that mental
representation.

287
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,240
So we do have it in real life
because I do represent you in

288
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,839
certain ways, like you said,
depending on your outfit and how

289
00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:27,040
you behave and my prior
knowledge.

290
00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:31,040
But I constantly update this
based on the interaction.

291
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,000
And ideally, you know, I'm not
captive in stereotypes and so

292
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,840
forth.
But this is all augmented in

293
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,000
online interactions because of
the limited information that you

294
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,480
have.
So you complemented a lot with

295
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,920
your own mental model and this
is what you have interaction

296
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,920
with, you know, just like a
whole bunch of fictional

297
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,480
characters that you created in
your mind and you you have

298
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,160
interactions with them and you
also, you don't have a lot of

299
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,920
information of how they perceive
you, which is very, also very

300
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,840
important input that you need to
understand a relationship.

301
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,920
Daniela When it comes to species
interacting, we know that a lot

302
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,640
of interactions can lead to
permanent outcomes.

303
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,360
So some if someone gives you a
traumatic childhood experience

304
00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:18,680
growing up, you'll always
remember that experience is a

305
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,760
fundamental life changing one.
We briefly touched on the fact

306
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,360
that memory and malleability are
very much interlinked.

307
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,280
Do you think that someone risks,
let's say you change a very

308
00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:34,360
traumatic memory and we sort of
use some sort of a strategy

309
00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:36,960
within psychiatry, whether
whether it's myself as a doctor

310
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,640
trying to work on someone with
CBT, dialectical behavioral

311
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,120
therapy, whatever.
Does that risk the person almost

312
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:47,240
losing out on a core memory that
perhaps would have otherwise LED

313
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,080
them down a different
philosophical part?

314
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,200
How do you how do you see these
people changing memories?

315
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,360
Or that's that's a pretty deep
question.

316
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,960
It's a very complicated ethical
issue.

317
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:06,040
So we, yeah, we, we kind of, I
think we all agree that that

318
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,840
memories shape us and, and make
us who we are.

319
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:14,840
And there is the concept of
growth from trauma, that people

320
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,600
become something they never
imagined they would be.

321
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:24,440
So that's a positive value kind
of that arises from it.

322
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,280
But but then you wouldn't want
to have trauma just because of

323
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,640
that, right?
So the, the thing about changing

324
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:37,600
memories is bringing them to the
adaptive range.

325
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,360
The the talk about modifying
memories in the context of

326
00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:46,120
trauma is only when the memory
makes you function less.

327
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:48,480
Well, it's like some people,
right?

328
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,200
They suffer and they can't work
and it it ruins their social

329
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,520
relationships.
It's a has a very serious price.

330
00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,120
And in this sense, you want to
modify that memory such that you

331
00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:04,160
could function with the memory.
So it's not about erasing, it's

332
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:09,120
about living with it in a way
that wouldn't you know,

333
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,600
interrupt with your, with your
daily function.

334
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,600
And in many cases, you could
remember the content.

335
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,840
So it's not about erasing the
content of the of the event.

336
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,240
It's actually making sense of
the content and then having the

337
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:28,120
emotion a bit.
Not, I would say, disconnected,

338
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:32,160
but tolerable when you remember,
because all of these processes

339
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,120
are are the ones that interfere
with with the experience.

340
00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:39,560
Of course, one can take it into
let's shape people, people's

341
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:46,200
memories and, and modify and it
could go to these, you know,

342
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,240
terrible scenarios.
But I think this can happen with

343
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,240
with every science And I also, I
don't think we're there yet

344
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,880
because it it's very subtle what
we managed to understand and to

345
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,800
modify.
Yeah, I think we thought, I

346
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,160
think that's more for Black
Maria episode at this point.

347
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,800
It's it's, it's very science
fictiony to a point where

348
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,360
people, people can postulate as
much as they want, but the tech

349
00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:11,920
isn't, isn't there.
But I mean, in if we think about

350
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,160
that differently, we can think
of certain medications that do

351
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,960
that within our, within my
field, let's say, and and yet we

352
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,480
still don't understand the basis
of how these things work.

353
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,320
So, so it is one of those fields
where there's it's very touch

354
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,360
and go.
Daniela, when you look at

355
00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:28,480
someone experiencing something,
whether it's a felt experience,

356
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,800
a subjective core experience, do
you find yourself seeing that

357
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,960
more of a more as a brain event
or bodily event?

358
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,000
Or do you find that to be more
of a psychological or a non

359
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:45,920
physical event?
All of the above, like I, I

360
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,360
don't separate it at all.
And also I think it's incredibly

361
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:54,280
important not to break it down
because as I mentioned early on,

362
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,240
it's always important to
remember that who is

363
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:03,000
experiencing the, the entity
that he's experiencing is an

364
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,760
Organism.
So the Organism is not just a

365
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:10,480
neural pathways or nervous
system, it's the the body,

366
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:11,960
right?
It's the entire thing.

367
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,680
You have the sensory information
coming to input to the body.

368
00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:21,000
And in addition to that, the
Organism is embedded in the

369
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,560
environment.
So it really matters where the

370
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:28,600
Organism is because it changes,
you know, the relative survival

371
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,520
ratio or whatever.
The Organism will even compute.

372
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,120
Also, the senses are important.
Different animals have different

373
00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:40,800
senses, so even if they're in
the same environment, they will

374
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,080
each have a different
environment depending on what

375
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,160
they sense.
And in addition to that, to have

376
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,520
an environment, the Organism has
to operate, it has to interact

377
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,920
with the environment, has to
perceive it, which is an action

378
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:58,960
in itself, and create the
environment such that the

379
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,160
Organism could interact with it.
So you see it's a very

380
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,200
iterative, convoluted process
that incorporates all of these.

381
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,320
There's the Organism in it's
entirety and it's and it's

382
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:11,840
interaction with the
environment.

383
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,120
All of these are the experience.
Yes, it's very similar to the

384
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:18,120
approach taken by the four East
Cogsai.

385
00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:20,280
Yes, exactly.
Yes.

386
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:21,840
Embedded.
Embodied.

387
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,040
Yes.
And the enacted and extended the

388
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:25,440
mere fact that we've got a cell
phone.

389
00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:28,160
So it forms part of who we are
at this point.

390
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,280
And without our cell phones,
we're actually a lot Dumber than

391
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,000
we think we are.
And we just everyday.

392
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,840
Are there any parts, Daniel,
when you when you guys are

393
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,880
working in the lab, when you
guys are doing your research,

394
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,720
how often do you guys ponder the
philosophical questions?

395
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,240
I mean like the what is
consciousness?

396
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,560
What is free world?
Do you guys ever sit down and

397
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,760
discuss this?
Is it something that comes up or

398
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,320
is that just for the couch
philosophers at home?

399
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,960
And so surprisingly, we, we do
it quite a lot.

400
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,400
And so because we did write the
human Affectum.

401
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:03,280
So human Affectum is an exercise
in incorporating philosophy into

402
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,040
science.
And it's also a really nice

403
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,240
example of how philosophy really
helps you organize.

404
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,840
What is it that you learn, even
organize the field and

405
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,920
especially putting all the
researchers on the same

406
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,440
platforms such that they and
also give them joint language

407
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,080
such that they will be able to
communicate.

408
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:35,400
And because that experience we
in our paper is that we had a

409
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,040
table that expands kind of all
the like components of

410
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,800
assumptions that go into
scientific research like

411
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,480
metaphysical assumptions,
pragmatic considerations, also

412
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,320
theoretical virtues.
What is it that you yourself

413
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,920
perceive as a good theory so
that all these like, you know,

414
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,680
something like 7 rows and we put
the affected field into that.

415
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,040
So the exercise we started doing
with the graduate students is

416
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,720
have them fill out this table,
basically identify their

417
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,880
different assumptions,
philosophical assumptions, you

418
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,360
know, mechanistic
operationalization, construct

419
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,560
pragmatic and, and do that in
their own field, in their own

420
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,760
thesis topic.
And that was a really wonderful

421
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,280
experience because it's a simple
exercise, but it kind of

422
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,600
fundamentally change how you
think of your research.

423
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,440
It really helps you organize.
It also helps you communicate

424
00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:35,480
and also makes you aware of many
things you took for granted or

425
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,280
either didn't think about or
once you think about it really

426
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,560
enlightens your understanding of
what you do.

427
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:46,040
So I'm, I'm like, I'm a really
big fan of incorporating

428
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,000
philosophy into science.
And this year we're going to do

429
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,920
the course again and maybe we'll
write something to share, you

430
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,760
know, the, the syllabus with,
with other people if they're

431
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,840
interested.
I think that's a brilliant

432
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,880
approach.
It's, I think it's very

433
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,000
underrated within science when
well, when you do do that, you

434
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,920
realize the normativity and the,
and the amount of biases and

435
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,560
fallacies we have when we think
about our own field.

436
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,280
And it's, and you're right, it
gives us that common language to

437
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,080
sort of dissect what we're
talking about, how we're

438
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,000
discussing it, why we have the
similar bias that we might have

439
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,400
and, and, and then move beyond
it.

440
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,160
So I, I do think it's almost
like a tool for science and and

441
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,240
it can only augment it.
Yes, like once you do it, you

442
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,040
can't believe you didn't do it
before.

443
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,560
And it's like, how did we even
survive without it?

444
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,560
So I, I do hope we will do it
more and more and we'll be more

445
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,520
aware of it.
Another nice benefit is that

446
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,000
sometimes when you think they're
competing theories, or I don't

447
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,680
know, maybe you have like a
nemesis theory, you actually

448
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,440
don't argue at all because you
really study different things.

449
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,520
So there's no competition
whatsoever.

450
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,120
You're actually really
complementing each other.

451
00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:58,520
So that really changes also the
kind of social dynamics in the

452
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,720
field.
Speaking of those social

453
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,120
dynamics, when you look at the
field of neuroscience right now

454
00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:06,240
and your work and the work
people like you are doing in the

455
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,920
field, is there anything in
particular that excites you

456
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,280
right now?
It's it's 2025, there's so much

457
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,560
going on.
We're exponential growths in

458
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,000
neuroscience research.
What excites you the most?

459
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:27,200
Wow, there's a a lot so well,
one thing is that from my

460
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,760
experience, we that we started
doing, but people have been

461
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:35,960
doing for quite a while now is
studying the human brain with

462
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,120
inter cerebral recordings
because we have access with

463
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:44,480
epilepsy patients that while
they're being just, you know,

464
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,560
waiting to for it.
So epilepsy patients, they will

465
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,120
come to the hospital and kind of
stay there for about a week.

466
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:54,080
They will have electrodes
implemented and wait for a

467
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,520
seizure to happen.
And this helps the neurosurgeon

468
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:01,000
identify the source of the
seizure and then map it and

469
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,200
target it in an invasive
procedure later on.

470
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,600
But for a few days, they're just
there with electrodes in their

471
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,600
brain.
And so they, they volunteered to

472
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,800
do some studies.
And that gives us really

473
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,280
unparalleled access to the human
brain, something that we could

474
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:22,480
just do with animals.
But the added value of doing it

475
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,760
in humans is that now you can do
things like the social

476
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,920
navigation and you can look at
just them talking, you know,

477
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,000
natural language, even
interacting.

478
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,160
So this, this is just kind of,
you don't see a lot of that.

479
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,760
It's the beginning, but this is
very exciting and you can

480
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:44,320
combine that or do it separately
with virtual reality and

481
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,400
augmented reality.
So experiments become more and

482
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,240
more naturalistic and closer to
the real life experiment, real

483
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,240
life experience, which is very
important, especially in

484
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,200
relation to trauma.
For example, we had a study

485
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,240
where we asked people with PTSD
to listen to our recording that

486
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,920
describes their own personal
trauma versus a regular memory.

487
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,880
So you can imagine someone is in
the fMRI scanner and we can look

488
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,600
at the room when they while they
listen to something like that,

489
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,640
you know, someone just talking,
but describing a personal

490
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,000
experience, then we can compare
it to non personal experience

491
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,840
and also, but it's, it's very,
very naturalistic and it's their

492
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,800
own personal memory.
And this is something you

493
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,480
couldn't study before because
what we do, usually we bring

494
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,040
everybody to the lab and they
all have the same experience,

495
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,280
which is very controlled, like
looking at the stimulus on a

496
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,200
computer, making that stimulus
scary.

497
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,120
But it's all very controlled and
organized.

498
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,840
But really what you're
interested in is the personal

499
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,840
trauma.
So now we can begin to see how

500
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,640
it gives us access to that.
And because we have this

501
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,000
sophisticated also analytical
methods and machine learning and

502
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,880
we have ways now to manage
complicated data and massive

503
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,280
data and we just begin kind of
to see the, the use of it in

504
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,840
science.
So I think that's, that's really

505
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,960
exciting.
That's why I said like, you

506
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,560
know, I said like because I was
just imagine, you know, like

507
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,960
many, many studies now for the,
the next 10 years.

508
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,640
Back when you started, did you
did you ever think that AI would

509
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,760
begin to assist neuroscience in
the way it has in the last few

510
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,240
years?
No, not at all.

511
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:36,160
It's like a I didn't, I didn't
even imagine that it was really

512
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:41,320
just the the plain old science
with control conditions and

513
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:46,160
simple conditions and clean, you
know, out of any you.

514
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,440
It's kind of interesting because
there's a phenomenon of interest

515
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,920
and what you do in one approach
is kind of strip, strip

516
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,640
everything out of it such that
you can isolate it and look at

517
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,120
it.
And now what we do is, is really

518
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,080
tuck it in the, the mass of
life.

519
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:09,480
But if we do manage to track it
or we believe it exists, like

520
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,760
for example, that computation
that I mentioned, like geometric

521
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,080
structure of social navigation,
we should be able to track it

522
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,680
out of all the mess.
So it actually, if it exists, it

523
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,120
should arise with, with all of
this noise because it's ordering

524
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,240
the noise.
So I find it very, very

525
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,080
compelling.
And I still think that there's

526
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,840
room for both, right?
There's like the classic way and

527
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,480
kind of the new way.
I also see many students, which

528
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:41,160
is very nice to see that they
combine advisors.

529
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,760
So they have like advisors that
do like more naturalistic stuff.

530
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,360
And then the, the more kind of
conservative advisors that do

531
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,920
the more organized stuff because
they themselves see that you do

532
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,880
need both kind of, you don't
need the, the very clear and

533
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:01,880
organized analytical thinking of
an experimental design, but also

534
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,120
the, the flexibility and I guess
somewhat creativity of

535
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,200
incorporating the, the
experience.

536
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,480
Another thing that is important
is that we used to think that

537
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,000
you translate animal work to
human work.

538
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,520
It has to be exactly the same.
And that had a lot of problems

539
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,040
because it's very hard for it to
be exactly the same.

540
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,040
So even with fear conditioning
or you have a stimulus paired

541
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,400
with, let's say, an electric
shock, and you do it in animals

542
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,720
and in humans, still humans, you
know, they have expectations.

543
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,720
They are really influenced by
the context.

544
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,800
They kind of overthink.
They're really influenced by the

545
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,440
instructions that you give them.
So it will never be identical.

546
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,320
But I think if there's a
principle of, let's say,

547
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:53,000
navigation, you could find it in
humans in a whole different way,

548
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,480
but it will still be exactly the
same computation.

549
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,400
You just arrive at it from the
human experience.

550
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,080
So it doesn't have to be exactly
identical, as long as the what

551
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,480
you really isolate is the
computation itself or the

552
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,360
representation that you're
trying to capture.

553
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,560
When we think of these, I mean
it's these soft skills that sort

554
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,200
of separate us from from
machines at this point.

555
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,640
When you think about how far
it's come and where it's going,

556
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,320
do you think we'll ever reach a
point where some sort of an

557
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,200
electrical or silicon system can
reach the complexity of a brain?

558
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,760
I mean, it's 20, it's 2% of our
body's mass, and yet 20% of our

559
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,720
body's energy is consumed.
And at what point will a system

560
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,080
be able to do that at a more
efficient rate and sort of

561
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,880
produce these experiences
similar to us?

562
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,080
Do you think that's possible
firstly, and and what are your

563
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:44,960
thoughts on when that might
happen if so?

564
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,840
Yeah.
Well, there, there the technical

565
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:54,000
aspects of it that, you know,
the current systems, they just

566
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,960
get heated and that's it's a big
problem.

567
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,080
I know that there's, you know,
nanophotonics, it's supposed to

568
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:07,080
be much more effective in terms
of, you know, saving this like

569
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,960
temperature problem.
So maybe maybe something will be

570
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,400
there.
But in terms of, I don't know,

571
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,840
if you're asking about something
that is more similar to the

572
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:22,080
brain, it might have to be, you
know, with organic matter.

573
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,600
Or if we want, if you want to
talk about conscious machines,

574
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:31,760
as long as they're not embedded
in the environment and have to

575
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,159
produce their own material like
an Organism.

576
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,080
And there will always be kind of
this fundamental barrier between

577
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,280
considering what is conscious
and what not.

578
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,840
Yeah, I think that's some people
call it mortal computation.

579
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,080
That's sort of the fact that we
will die and we have to sort of

580
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,960
live to we have to do things
within this universe to survive

581
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,080
and keep ourselves alive and
thrive is a fundamental part of

582
00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:00,480
being the conscious being at
this point and and most systems

583
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,160
don't have that or most
mechanistic ones.

584
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:05,760
Yeah.
I mean you, you could say that

585
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,200
this is the like the perfect
question of purpose that that I

586
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,680
mentioned early on.
This is what the Organism is

587
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:18,640
doing and this is where you find
kind of consciousness and, and

588
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,640
affect and the content of
consciousness.

589
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:25,080
It's exactly for that, you know,
to, to exist, to reproduce your

590
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,120
own material, to be independent,
a separate unit from the

591
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,600
environment, but interacting
with the environment and

592
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:35,520
whatever you do is for the sake
of continuing to be right.

593
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,080
And for this, you have
representations of the

594
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:43,200
environment and you can, you can
have abstraction, which is this

595
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,040
added ability that we can find,
you know, more confidently in

596
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:52,240
humans, maybe in other animals
as well, which really expands

597
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:55,360
your, your field of relevance of
what you can interact with in

598
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,920
the environment.
These are kind of all levels of,

599
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:03,680
of evolution.
But so, so these are, this is

600
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,600
where you find consciousness.
It's like for, for that purpose,

601
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,760
you know, you could say.
So if we don't have it in

602
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:16,880
machine, then I think it will be
difficult to to conclude that

603
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,120
it's similar to conscious
Organism.

604
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:22,720
But I don't know it's, it's a
really complicated debate.

605
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:24,520
So.
Yeah, no, it's it's one of those

606
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,920
things that keep me up at night.
What are one of the other things

607
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,280
would be free will.
What The channel explores that

608
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,840
quite thoroughly.
What are your thoughts on that

609
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,640
from a neuroscience perspective,
do you believe?

610
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:36,560
I mean, I know it's a
complicated question and even

611
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,400
asking if do we have free will
is quite simplistic.

612
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,480
But when you think about will
freedom of choice and just

613
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,720
having this, what do you think
about free will?

614
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,400
It's funny, it's like everybody,
you know, come with their own

615
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,960
like real solution to like the
most complicated.

616
00:36:57,240 --> 00:36:59,560
The problem is that if if you
think you have a solution, you

617
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,480
probably don't understand the
problem, right?

618
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,440
So you're always risking it.
But I think there's like

619
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:13,600
something to do with
probabilities.

620
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:18,840
I guess it's, I guess it's weird
thing to say, but there's a

621
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,400
problem with determinism, right?
That there's one thing leads to

622
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,600
another and there therefore we
don't have free will.

623
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,000
It's kind of it's all
determined.

624
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:31,600
But we do find situations in the
world where they call it like

625
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:36,360
the land of equal probabilities
where equal, you know, it's

626
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,320
like, but you still need to make
a choice.

627
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:44,280
So yeah, I'm just like, I'm
wondering if the fact that we

628
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:50,240
make a choice from equal land of
landscape of probabilities is

629
00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:56,240
the sense of free will or.
So it's a sort of, yeah.

630
00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:59,120
But it's, it's really just like
my, my science fiction theory,

631
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,560
right?
That's where I stand.

632
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,920
But I, I think I would be
curious to see where it goes in

633
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,880
terms of choosing from that.
That's the kind of the, the

634
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,720
essence of free will, right?
The fact that you have a choice.

635
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,680
But growing up in Israel, did
you find that you always wanted

636
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,360
to be a neuroscientist?
Was that something that was

637
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,200
always on your mind, or was that
something that just happened

638
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,040
while delving into the
philosophy of mind over time?

639
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,280
I think, I mean, I don't know
who is the person that really

640
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,960
plans their future.
I don't think it exists really.

641
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,760
It's just in retrospect and it's
sometimes it seems like

642
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,600
everything was planned because
one thing builds on another.

643
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,360
It's like just so nicely
crafted, but it's like

644
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,280
absolutely not.
It's like you really take it day

645
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,920
by day.
I had in each stage I had no

646
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,760
idea if even and how I Will
Survive the next and whether it

647
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:59,920
would lead to anything else.
Also it it, it's not like I had

648
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:03,600
like a world view of I want to
study this and that just like

649
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,880
every moment I was interested in
something.

650
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,600
And and I think because you
follow your passion, then you're

651
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,200
consistent.
You see, you're not first

652
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,360
consistent.
It's like you just do whatever

653
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,160
at the moment is the most
important to you.

654
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,680
And because it's you and you,
you do have some, some passions

655
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,080
and interests, then then one
thing leads to another and

656
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,880
become a very coherent actually
path.

657
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,240
But yeah, no, I mean, I was
really interested in, in

658
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:36,040
astronomy and astrophysics.
That that was my passion as a

659
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,560
child.
And I always thought I would go

660
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,920
in that direction.
There's there was no science

661
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,760
like space program or something
when I grew up.

662
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,280
So I just, you know, I ended up,
I found myself sort of in the,

663
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,040
the field of neuroscience, which
was like the next best thing,

664
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,040
you know, in terms of being
complicated.

665
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:58,240
Yeah.
In retrospect, it does reflect

666
00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:00,200
what what I was always curious
about.

667
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:05,560
But it just you, if you just
follow your passion, you'll find

668
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,400
your path as opposed to plan
your path ahead of time.

669
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,320
We're exactly the same in that,
because when I was younger,

670
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:12,520
that's the same thing that
happened to me.

671
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:13,960
I wanted to be an
astrophysicist.

672
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,560
And then eventually he found
myself going down the route of

673
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,160
mental health and medicine.
And then because I felt like the

674
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,800
mind was studying, the brain
would be the closest thing to

675
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,360
that, which is strange because
it's, but yet it is.

676
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,440
It's fundamentally a universe in
itself.

677
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:28,520
Yeah.
I mean, I can.

678
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,280
I can.
I think I did have one, at least

679
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:36,680
one philosophical approach that
that I was aware of early on,

680
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:41,840
which is how I treated fear
because my interest in fear was

681
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:49,120
about related to freedom because
I just felt it's very limiting.

682
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,040
You're trapped in your fear and
also trapped in memories.

683
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,240
So I found or thought that
overcoming fear is really about

684
00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:04,320
liberating liberation, kind of
just removing obstacles.

685
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,360
That that's how I I treated
fear, you know, Speaking of free

686
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,880
will, you know, you don't want
something to dictate.

687
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,160
It's like something external
that dictates whatever you do.

688
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,520
So it's really about freedom.
And, and has that changed over

689
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,160
the years or do you still find
that sort of liberation when you

690
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,960
talk about breaking away from
fear and like helping people

691
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:26,520
with that with your work and
research?

692
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,760
Yes, it even expanded because
now it it goes to everything.

693
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,560
It's about our emotions and
about our memories.

694
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,120
So I did have a fundamental
change in how I think about

695
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:43,600
memories because, you know, you
grew up thinking that memories

696
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,600
are who you are and you don't
even doubt them.

697
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,200
It's just like a story that
you're stuck with.

698
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:51,960
And it's just like repeating,
you know, you always have this

699
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,400
like memory in mind and, and
it's who you are and it's your

700
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,720
life experience.
And now it's like it's nothing,

701
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,880
nothing at all because first of
all, it's just it's a choice.

702
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,400
You know, whatever you remember
is a choice and how you remember

703
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,400
it is a choice.
And, and also it's a

704
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,520
possibility.
It's not, you're not entirely

705
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,760
sure that this is what happened.
So in a way, just like you

706
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,800
predicted the future, you
always, you almost like predict

707
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:20,720
the past.
You can have an hypothesis about

708
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:24,080
the past.
So it's an option now.

709
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,800
And so it's not, it's not self
defining anymore.

710
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:37,720
And also the fact that emotions
are are information in a way and

711
00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:41,000
also they could be flexible.
Then you also started having a

712
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,360
relationship with your memory
and with your emotion as opposed

713
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,200
to just operating at every given
moment.

714
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,360
If you have a memory, then it
gives you information.

715
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:51,760
It's like, why do I remember it
now?

716
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,680
It actually tells you a lot
about your situation now as

717
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,280
opposed to what actually
happened before.

718
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,600
That's the most important
information that it it gives you

719
00:43:01,240 --> 00:43:03,520
and emotions.
It's like if you're afraid, it's

720
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,120
like, because people can say,
yeah, but I can't do it because

721
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:07,680
I'm afraid.
And that's it.

722
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,960
You know, it's like, no, but
it's not.

723
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,120
You can still have a
relationship with that fear,

724
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,400
right?
You can, you don't necessarily

725
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,400
have to feel like that or you
can do something despite of that

726
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:23,480
or so all of these like self
defining aspects of your life

727
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,840
are not defining anymore.
And in a way, you become this

728
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:35,000
first spirit, that kind of
liberated creature that you kind

729
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:39,320
of create yourself every moment
in a way by interacting with

730
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,000
these entities.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's

731
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,040
crazy because when you think
about when people talk about

732
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,080
prior information dictating the
posterior outcomes or

733
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,160
conclusions, yeah, what you're
saying is almost like it's it's

734
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,440
actually, we have these
posterior conclusions that we

735
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,920
keep making that actually
dictate the posterior

736
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:57,640
conclusions.
So this choice is all the way

737
00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:59,320
down.
I'd never stop.

738
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:02,200
And every, at every point we
want to stop and actually ask

739
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,400
another question.
We can fundamentally change the

740
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,680
conclusion in an instant,
actually.

741
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,080
Or maybe not in an instance of
the time at least.

742
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,760
Yeah.
And, and also another thought I

743
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:19,480
had that is also a more recent
insight of sorts is that so

744
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,240
first you, you have the story of
your life, right?

745
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,400
And then the next stage is like,
well, maybe it's not the story

746
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,600
of my life, right?
You can start to doubt the story

747
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,920
and you kind of see that it's
modifiable and it's flexible.

748
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,080
It's not the absolute truth.
And you really learn about the

749
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,640
moment and who you are now and
what, what you need.

750
00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:43,000
And then the next stage is, is
not committing to any story.

751
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,280
It's actually living with
multiple stories.

752
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:51,240
And I have kind of a, you know,
pet theory like like with the

753
00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:55,720
consciousness and the free that
it's actually very adaptive to

754
00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:59,120
have a wide range of options.
So the more stories you have

755
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,960
about yourself or the
possibilities, the better.

756
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,600
Because if you just, you know,
commit to 1 storyline, it's very

757
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,400
restrictive.
If like two or three, it's fine.

758
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,920
But if you it's like at any
given moment, it's like you

759
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:18,200
treat everything as like
possibilities and, and one is

760
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:23,240
like more probable or more
coherent or makes sense or

761
00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:26,080
something.
But you're kind of very flexible

762
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:27,680
with that too.
Yeah.

763
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,080
So, and that makes sense because
when you think of certain

764
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,800
theories that were told back in
the day, when you think about

765
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,120
certain narcissists or
pathological liars and you see

766
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,040
how prior to the invention of
proof or like photography,

767
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,280
videography, you could get away
with so much.

768
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,240
And, and it was often a trait
that helped them evolutionary to

769
00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:47,240
get through lots of things.
You could lie your way through

770
00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:48,800
anything.
There was no form of evidence

771
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:50,480
out there.
People weren't keeping track.

772
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,800
And then over time, as the as
digital media progressed, as

773
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:58,240
this proof, as we have notes and
and prior information, now it's

774
00:45:58,240 --> 00:45:59,880
not actually not working as
much.

775
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:03,360
But you can tell how having that
ability to almost lie on demand,

776
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,280
being able to be malleable as a
character, be a chameleon, do

777
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,280
whatever you need to do, would
actually benefit you in so many

778
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,680
ways.
Because you can literally drop

779
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:13,840
into a different country,
pretend like you're from there.

780
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,200
Yeah, yeah.
But but there's a there's a

781
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,520
caveat.
So I'm glad you you gave that

782
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:24,280
example because it's, it's not
what I meant to so, so I'm glad

783
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,840
you you went there so that now I
can clarify.

784
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:33,200
So it's not about inventing your
life as you go.

785
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:38,000
It's it's actually, I believe
that this is how you become the

786
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:42,360
most authentic and true to
yourself.

787
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:46,760
You see, I mean, there's still a
you there that because there's

788
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,040
still the end, the you that have
the interaction with the memory.

789
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,720
It's just what the only thing
I'm saying is that it, it

790
00:46:54,720 --> 00:47:01,080
doesn't, it's not forced upon
you anymore or it becomes

791
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,840
information rather than a ready
made or because you, you never

792
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,040
chose it in a way if you just
have your storylines like my

793
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,800
childhood was like this and this
one did this to me.

794
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:17,400
And then that's what I am now.
Now it's like, you know, well,

795
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,400
maybe not, or maybe I can look
at it differently, or maybe now

796
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:25,640
I have more information or maybe
I can find a way not to be

797
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:27,760
afraid.
But you, you see, you just like

798
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,080
become more like an, an artist
with a lot of material.

799
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:33,720
Yeah, it's kind of like a
refresh.

800
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,720
It's kind of like reframing
because it's almost like

801
00:47:36,720 --> 00:47:40,440
uncaging yourself and
remembering a lot more as has

802
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:42,600
actually happened to you.
Let's say the day that you had a

803
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,120
traumatic experience, they might
have been the most beautiful

804
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:46,640
sunset that occurred the same
night.

805
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,720
And you could always rewire that
into a different thought, like,

806
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:54,520
OK, that day was more about this
beautiful sunset or I am I close

807
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:56,000
to but what you're talking
about.

808
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,760
Or yeah, because what I want to
say is that it's not less true.

809
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,520
Yeah, so, so unlike the the
confabulating person, I mean,

810
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,360
that person is doesn't have even
a stable self, right?

811
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:08,920
It's like you don't know who
that person is.

812
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:10,480
They're just like moment by
moment.

813
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:16,840
Actually they they are, they're
like changing by the moment

814
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,680
depending on the moment.
And and I'm talking about

815
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:26,760
actually resisting that.
You see, because it's like you,

816
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,840
you're not your emotions in your
emotions are not something that

817
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,280
are just there.
It's like I have this emotion.

818
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,600
You see, you sort of free
yourself and now you have like a

819
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,600
lot of choice, or at least you
interact with it as opposed to

820
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,880
it's like floating it's.
Almost like you're detaching

821
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,720
from yourself, but you're
detaching from that moment

822
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,440
rather so, so unlike the
confabulator, the psychopath,

823
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,040
you know, you're not becoming
new people each time, but

824
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,480
you're, you're aligning your
stories to parts that you kind

825
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,320
of want to go on and that have
actually happened.

826
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,880
And you're just navigating
through that territory rather

827
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:02,480
than the one that brought you
down.

828
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,040
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think I like to think about

829
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,240
it.
I like the artist example

830
00:49:09,240 --> 00:49:13,200
because it's like you just have
more material to work with to

831
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:17,840
shape your life.
Is it is it ever been a concern

832
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,480
that you get so caught up in the
artwork you forget what the

833
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,120
canvas look like when it
started?

834
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:34,560
I think not, because I think
this process actually makes your

835
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:41,640
core stronger because you, you
access the core, which is the

836
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,480
the thing, you know, that it
interacts with all the things

837
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:50,320
and consider them, you know,
and, and also it's, it's not a

838
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:55,360
lot of it sounds very cerebral,
but it's, it's not, it's not

839
00:49:55,360 --> 00:50:05,720
entirely like that.
It's really about, you know,

840
00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:09,960
like like music when you sort of
improvise and, and you, you have

841
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,520
like a way to kind of so you
listen and then you go in a

842
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,360
certain way, but but you keep
listening and then you go in

843
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,720
another way.
So.

844
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,800
Like jazz in that.
Result.

845
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,040
Yeah, yeah.
It's more like that.

846
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,400
Tell me, Daniella, with within
this field, such a diverse

847
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,400
neuroscience is such a diverse
field, a lot of people don't

848
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,080
realize it.
I mean, it forms bases of so

849
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:33,920
many different things.
It can be economics, it can go

850
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,240
down to the subatomic level.
It can go into chemistry,

851
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:39,440
whatever.
Which parts about neuroscience

852
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:45,320
or the brain are you most
passionate about right now and

853
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,120
and what are you most looking
forward to in the future of

854
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:56,160
neuroscience?
I'm kind of, I'm excited about,

855
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,640
well, the mind.
So I would say mental actions

856
00:50:59,960 --> 00:51:05,760
because I'm kind of leaning
toward a view that really merges

857
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,600
cognition and affect.
So I wouldn't say I'm interested

858
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:10,480
in affect.
It's, it's really about this

859
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:14,400
subjective experience or felt
experience and you have these

860
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,680
different components.
So the, it's really all of the

861
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:19,800
above.
So there's the neurobiological,

862
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:24,760
they're literally, even before
that, the very physical, you

863
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:29,240
know, network of an Organism,
which is like how units interact

864
00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:32,840
and produce materials so that
it's like the, the very, these

865
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,560
very basic systems.
And then on top of that, you

866
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,320
start to have the mental
actions, which is perception,

867
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:43,960
attention, sensory information.
It's like the components and

868
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:49,200
layered on it is is affect which
is the experience of the entire

869
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:52,840
Organism.
So in a way the cognitive

870
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,080
processes that we studied them
separately now are the

871
00:51:56,080 --> 00:52:01,480
components that comprise the the
agent as a whole.

872
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:05,040
And the agent as a whole has
this like global computation

873
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,800
that can then constrain the the
cognitive aspect.

874
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:12,960
So for example, if you have the
concern of, of threat, if you go

875
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,640
back to fear as an Organism, it
will constrain your, all of your

876
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:18,360
processes.
So you will perceive things

877
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,520
differently.
You will be attuned to different

878
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,280
types of information in a
different way.

879
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,000
All of your, your body and
processes are adjusted.

880
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,400
So you can think about it as
like these global computations

881
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,400
versus local computations.
And they're, they're all

882
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:37,240
interacting.
So I would say I'm looking

883
00:52:37,240 --> 00:52:43,640
forward to to working in that
more global interactive space

884
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,960
where the different researchers
are communicating because

885
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,480
they're all in the same context,
you know, of the Organism in

886
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:54,720
this particular affective States
and the affective states are,

887
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:57,920
are inseparable.
They're not like this additional

888
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,480
process, you know, sparkled on a
on a cognitive process.

889
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:05,400
It's it's just considering the
entire Organism A computation

890
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:09,880
that has the agent as the the
carrier of the computation.

891
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,240
Yeah, it's and, and when you
think about this fault

892
00:53:13,240 --> 00:53:15,600
experience, I mean this feeling
of reality.

893
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,640
And I mean, because it's easy to
think of someone thinking or

894
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,360
having a thought, but feeling, I
mean, we're always doing it.

895
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:24,640
We feel, we feel our way through
everything.

896
00:53:24,720 --> 00:53:28,200
Which other species do you think
if if it was not a human brain

897
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,800
that you were studying now, what
would be the next best brain

898
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,000
you'd love to to sort of get
your hands on?

899
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:38,080
You could possibly want to study
that that you find intrigues

900
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:42,920
your most except for a human.
Yeah, I think there's actually

901
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:46,960
more that we don't know.
I I read this book like, you

902
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:51,680
know, many people read it from
Ed Young, this immense world.

903
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:57,880
It's a mind boggling and it's a
it's a little bit even scary

904
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:05,880
what you what you kind of find
in these like different other

905
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,760
options of consciousness.
Even I read like this, this

906
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,280
little actually title that like
some people really like

907
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:14,240
cockroaches and they think
they're like way more

908
00:54:14,240 --> 00:54:17,120
intelligent and they can like
even look at you, you know.

909
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:25,880
So I think we don't know a lot,
but it's like from what we know,

910
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,040
I'm really curious about
actually the very social

911
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:35,040
species, like elephants I think
are just like amazing and

912
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:41,720
dolphins and, well, octopuses
now we also know a lot more.

913
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,720
So, yeah, all the things that
you can have like a relationship

914
00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:51,280
with and you feel there's
someone there with dogs,

915
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:57,000
obviously.
So yeah, this would be my first

916
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:58,640
chance.
Will be an elephant, I think.

917
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:03,280
And I think that's, that's one
of the nice things about having

918
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:07,240
feeling or affect as this as a
more core principle within this

919
00:55:07,240 --> 00:55:09,960
framework you're talking about
is because it's sort of allows

920
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,240
us to have more species on our,
on the hierarchy, let's say

921
00:55:13,240 --> 00:55:16,480
evolutionary, because we often
just anything without a cortex,

922
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:18,480
we sort of we're done with it.
But actually, when you think

923
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,360
about it, a lot of species can
feel their way through reality

924
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:23,880
without this, without a
prefrontal cortex, without any

925
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,040
cortical aspects as well.
So even though we might not

926
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:29,240
understand the way an octopus
works or anything without a

927
00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:33,440
cortex is a is still feeling
it's way through reality.

928
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:36,760
So we're giving more things
consciousness with that approach

929
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:39,440
in essence.
Yeah.

930
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:43,720
And I wouldn't necessarily
separate thoughts and feelings,

931
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,160
everything.
When you have a thought, it's a

932
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:51,520
felt state.
So it's a felt experience.

933
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:58,320
So yeah, I think in this way,
the more I dived into affect,

934
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:03,840
the more it seems like actually
encompassing actually all of

935
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,000
cognition.
So it, it become, become less,

936
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,760
you know, more and more kind of
inclusive of, of everything and,

937
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:15,880
and became something else, not
another process, but that global

938
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:19,680
process that I, I mentioned.
If you, Danielle, if you had to

939
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:23,320
have a sort of a Mount Rushmore
favorite neuroscientist, who

940
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:24,840
would they be?
Who inspired you most?

941
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:27,200
Or who do you recommend people
check out?

942
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:34,200
Except for yourself, of course.
Oh, I had.

943
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:39,320
Jeez, you caught me there.
I have to think about it.

944
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:42,400
Oh, no pressure Does anyone who
inspires you, people you think

945
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:44,280
about, people who maybe got you
into it.

946
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:47,000
I know one of mine is Oliver
Sacks.

947
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:49,320
He's someone I really love and
actually like.

948
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:51,840
Probably one of the reasons why
I do this podcast.

949
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:53,440
I don't know if you're familiar
with Oliver.

950
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:58,560
I'm assuming you are.
Yeah, I mean, he's amazing.

951
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:03,480
He like is a person that sees
the humanity in people.

952
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:10,880
It's just like I feel like I'm
inspired on a daily basis from,

953
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:15,080
from many, many also, you know,
from physicists and

954
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,120
mathematicians, so.
Brought in that let's make it

955
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:21,720
like who are the scientists who
or philosophers who've inspired

956
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:25,200
you or shaped your worldview to
a point where they they really

957
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:26,760
shaped your career and who you
are?

958
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:34,960
I I have to think about it.
It's fine.

959
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:43,160
It is like a great many and kind
of it's hard to choose, but it's

960
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:46,600
like I feel I have I have an
answer for that, but but I want

961
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:48,280
to think about it like more
deeply.

962
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:52,160
That that's completely fine.
If if any recommended reading,

963
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:54,440
though, Daniella, do you think
that if someone's looking at to

964
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:56,760
get into this field, do you
think that you can think of any

965
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,600
books that you'd recommend
people who want to fall in love

966
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,400
with neuroscience or and and
just falling in love with the

967
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,480
mind in general.
Is that something you also need?

968
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:09,080
Some thoughts?
Well, I think Oliver Sacks

969
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,080
definitely will be top of the
list.

970
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:21,720
And well, I, I really look up to
my a postdoc commenter, Joseph

971
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,480
Ledoux is like the fun of the
founding fathers of the

972
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:29,560
emotional brain.
And yeah, I think, well, he

973
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:33,720
would definitely be a person
that inspired me a lot because

974
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:42,640
he's very poetic about how he
views the the brain and emotion.

975
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:46,360
He keeps evolving.
He has an amazing way of

976
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,280
expressing himself himself.
He's also a musician.

977
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:54,880
So you it's very pleasant to
read what he writes, almost like

978
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,080
listening to music.
There's some this like

979
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:02,360
lightness, but but extreme depth
and I think he did a lot.

980
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:06,840
He pretty much one of the, you
know, first few that that

981
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:11,800
started shaping the field of the
emotional brain and emotional

982
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:16,360
neuroscience and brought us
where we are now.

983
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:19,960
So yeah, I would say I would
recommend him.

984
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:23,040
He's he has several books, very
recent ones.

985
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:29,640
He's also working on a memoir.
So I think there's more to read.

986
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:32,000
And now he's, he's really
dealing with consciousness.

987
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:35,200
So for him also emotion led him
to to consciousness.

988
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,960
So I would start with him and I
would say he's he's definitely

989
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,160
one of the scientists that
inspired me most.

990
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:44,120
Yes.
And Danielle, just a round off

991
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:48,400
if, what work should we look out
for in your from your lab in the

992
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:50,840
future that's really exciting
you at the moment.

993
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:53,720
And and then from there, we'll
slowly round off.

994
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:59,080
I'm excited about where the
social space will take us in

995
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:03,240
terms of the neural mechanisms,
if you can dig more and more to

996
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,880
find neurons and how they encode
this navigation in abstract

997
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:08,720
space.
So we're heading there.

998
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:14,920
And also more into naturalistic
experiences of of threat and

999
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:19,440
fear and trauma.
And to use that, I'm going to

1000
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:24,120
use language models and more
sophisticated machine learning

1001
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:28,840
based analysis to analyse
naturalistic behaviour,

1002
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:33,720
especially related to fear.
Daniles, was there anything

1003
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:37,640
about your work in general that
you feel you've you've always

1004
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:40,280
wanted to talk about it never
got the chance really express

1005
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,240
and tell people of the
excitement that perhaps you'd

1006
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:45,840
like to or or do you feel that I
might have not asked about

1007
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:47,760
that's really cool and people
should know about.

1008
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:58,760
Yeah, I think the, the
reconsolidation aspect, we, we

1009
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:01,760
didn't mention the, the word,
but you know, modifying memories

1010
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:04,720
and, and navigating social
space.

1011
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:08,480
I think now I'm also merging
them, starting to merge them to

1012
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:12,920
see how the affect is
incorporated into the social

1013
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:16,880
space or social behaviour is a
form of affective experience

1014
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:18,960
that needs to be modified and
updated.

1015
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:24,200
So it's, it's about identifying
these like core, core memories

1016
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:28,680
and then finding a way to modify
them and then track the change.

1017
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:33,520
And I think the human effect,
which we we published just

1018
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:37,680
recently, I'm very excited about
that and want to see how where

1019
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:41,360
it will lead us and I hope it
will be useful for the field.

1020
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:44,160
I'll definitely put a link to
that below as well.

1021
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,280
Thank you so much, Danielle.
I really appreciate your time.

1022
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:50,800
Before we end, is there anything
about the brain you ping?

1023
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:53,800
If you if you were to conclude
this, what is the one thing

1024
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:56,720
you'd like to tell people about
the brain that they should know

1025
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:01,600
and remember at the end of this
conversation, or the human

1026
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:03,680
experience with your knowledge
in mind?

1027
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:09,800
Yeah, I would say the the most
interesting aspect that people

1028
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:14,520
should be aware of is the
malleability of it, the the

1029
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:20,000
flexibility of it and the degree
of choice that we have.

1030
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:26,640
So like breaking free from the
self defining memories and

1031
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:32,800
emotional patterns and starting
to interact with them to find

1032
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:36,240
who you are underneath.
Beautiful.

1033
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:38,440
Thanks so much, Daniela.
I really appreciate your time.

1034
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:41,240
This was an absolute pleasure
and you keep up the great work.

1035
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:43,840
You guys are incredible and it's
always a pleasure to watch you

1036
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:46,720
guys from the outside and see
the incredible work that's being

1037
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:48,840
put out.
So keep it up and thank you for

1038
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:50,720
my side.
Yeah, Thank you.

1039
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:52,280
Thank you.
It was a great conversation.