What is Consciousness? Nested Observer Windows, Meta-Awareness & Mind Wandering | Jonathan Schooler

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Jonathan, your work spans so
many different fields that I

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was, I was curious as to how I'm
going to approach this

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conversation, but I figured I'd,
I'd filter it into layers.

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So let's start off with the
biggest question.

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I mean, it's mind body solution.
So everyone knows we have to

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talk about the mind body
problem.

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So your research has shown that
introspection can sometimes

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impair performance or distort
experiences.

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What does this reveal about the
reliability of first person

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reports in consciousness studies
and how might it challenge

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dominant methods in the field?
And I think while we're at it,

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Jonathan, what is consciousness?
I mean, consciousness is really

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paradoxical in in so many ways
in that it's simultaneously the

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thing that we know most
intimately.

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It's really all we know is
consciousness.

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All we know is our own
consciousness.

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And yet at the same time, it's
also incredibly inscrutable in

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the sense that we don't know how
to directly measure it.

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We can't say what is conscious
or what's not conscious with any

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degree of certainty.
We assume that each other is

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conscious 'cause we have such
similarities.

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But there's there's no like
special thing that we can say

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this is consciousness.
So is a bee conscious?

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Is a plant conscious?
We don't know.

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We can, we can speculate and,
and that's really what we have

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to recognize is that so much
about consciousness involves

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speculation, informed
speculations.

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I like the the increasingly
prevailing definition of

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consciousness, which is simply
experience.

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It's simply what starts when you
wake up and maybe it may be

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going on through the night or
not.

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We again, it's very difficult to
know exactly if it's a memory

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thing or if it's a just not
present.

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But so consciousness is
basically experience in Nagel's

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terms.
It's what what it's like to if

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there's something it's like to
be that thing, then it's it's

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conscious.
Now, with respect to

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introspection, this is again a,
a very challenging, somewhat

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paradoxical thing because as I
said, we, we rely on our

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experience for so much.
And I do think, and my research

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has shown that people's
self-reports can be a reasonable

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proxy in at least some
situations for what's actually

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going on.
So we know that when people say

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they're mind wandering that they
a are more likely to show a

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reduction in encoding and all
sorts of other clues that their

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mind really is off task relative
to when they say they're on

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task.
At the same time, it is the case

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that when we find that when
people describe experiences, for

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example, describing a face or a
taste or a color that can

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interfere with their nonverbal
knowledge, we call this verbal

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overshadowing.
And it seems that when you try

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to put things in words, you can
lose some of the information

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that you are unable to
articulate.

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And I think that is an important
constraint.

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And really the approach that
we've used is to try to

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triangulate on self-reports.
So people provide self-reports,

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but then you find other types of
evidence such as behavioral

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measures or physiological
measures, neurocognitive

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measures that I help to validate
the self report.

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So for example, when people
report that they're mind

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wandering while reading, we see
differences in their gaze

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durations that typically when
you're reading, you spend more

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time on unfamiliar words than
familiar words.

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So there's a a relationship
between the characteristic of

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the word and gaze durations.
And when people are mind

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wandering, that relationship is
reduced.

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So suggesting that they're not
processing the words in this

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meaningful way.
So their self-reports of mind

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wandering are then validated to
a significant degree by their

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eye movements.
Now it's also important to

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mention your, your question was
very packed.

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So I got to go through a couple
of things.

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It's important to mention also
that even in the case of mind

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wandering people, self-reports
can be distorted.

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So for example, in some very
elegant research, they asked

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they gave people feedback about
their performance on a task and

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then asked them whether or not
they were mind wandering.

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And the key thing is, sometimes
they gave them bogus feedback

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that they either had performed
well or not.

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And if they gave them bogus
feedback that they had performed

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badly, they were more likely to
report mind wandering, even even

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though this happened after the
fact.

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So they just inferred from the
fact that they'd done badly that

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they must have been mind
warning.

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So even something as seemingly
transparent as whether or not

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your mind was focused on the
task or not is.

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And self-reports are an
imperfect measure of even that,

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although they're highly related,
they're they're not perfect.

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So pulling that all together,
what this suggests then is that

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self introspection and
self-reports are an important

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source of understanding
consciousness, but they're also

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limited.
They they, there's measurement

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error associated with them.
And under some circumstances

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people can be truly off.
But at the at the final thing

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I'll say is that at the end of
the day, it's our conscious

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experience that we have to rely
on even for, you know, looking

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at the outcome of objective
measures.

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Everything is filtered through
our consciousness.

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And that's just sort of the
bottom line.

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Yeah.
I mean, since introspection is

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both essential and potentially
unreliable, as you just said,

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how can we build robust science
when it comes to consciousness

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that neither over privileges nor
dismisses subjective experience?

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I mean, your lab does this in
terms of practical strategies.

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Could you perhaps run through
some of them and what you guys

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do and how you do it and why you
do it?

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Yeah, So.
Yeah.

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So typically what we like to do
is to find converging sources of

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evidence for the self-reports.
And mind wandering has really

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been the primary area in which
we've explored this.

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So mind wandering again, is a
situation in which you're

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engaging in some tasks, say
reading, and you realize at some

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moment that your mind is not.
And everyone that has this

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experience, you realize it's a
moment that your mind is not

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focusing on the words, your eyes
are moving across the page, but

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you're thinking about something
entirely different.

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And so when people report that
they're mind wandering, how

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confident can we be that they're
that the content of their mind

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really has shifted?
And there are a number of

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different techniques that we've
used, As I mentioned before,

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we've looked at eye movement
patterns.

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We've also looked at reaction
time.

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So you see that when if people
are advancing text or doing

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other tasks.
Another classic example is you

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have to press a button every
time you see a number except for

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the number 3, in which case you
have to withhold the button.

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So if you press the button when
there's a three, that suggests

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that you were mind warming.
So we can look at that

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behavioral response, but it
could be something else.

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You could just have not been
able to stop your finger in

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time.
So it's not a perfect measure.

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But what we do see is that when
people are mind wandering,

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there's greater reaction time
variability.

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That is the rate in which
they're pressing the button

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varies more than when they're on
task.

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So that's another behavioral
measure.

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You can look at EEG and you see
increased alpha.

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When people are mind warming,
you can look at what's known as

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evoke response potentials where
you look at the lock it to a

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particular event and then see
what the various different

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parameters are, say to the
appearance of a of a stimulus.

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And we see a particular changes
in a very different brain

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patterns associated with the,
with the the object a reduction,

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something called the P300.
We also can look at fMRI and

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look at activation of different
brain regions.

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And when people are mind
wandering, they're more likely

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to show activation of a region
known as the default mode

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network, which is a region which
is especially active when you

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don't aren't giving people a
task to do or when they're

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thinking about themselves.
And so all these different

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measures when they align with
people's self-reports, that

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helps to to validate that those
reports are accurate.

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And then finally, if you ask
people to self report and if

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that changes their behavior in
systematic ways, then that

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suggests that the self report,
particularly if it distorts

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their behavior as I mentioned
with verbal overshadowing of

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when people are thinking out
loud and they do less well on an

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inside task or they're less good
at recognizing a face or a

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taste.
That suggests that the

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verbalization was not entirely A
coherent with the with whatever

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their experience was.
That said, we do find that this

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verbal overshadowing effect that
the disruption that comes from

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verbalization tends to be a
relatively small effect.

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It it it seems to be if it
degrades performance, it

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degrades it only a very
slightly.

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And in many situations, thinking
out loud is a pretty good

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representation of the kinds of
thoughts that people are having,

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because a lot of the thoughts
that people have, at least many

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people, are verbal in nature.
I think it's intriguing because

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there's there's so many ways
someone could interpret this.

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If you take an illusionist, for
example, who, who, who

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interprets this information,
it's very easy to then formulate

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an illusionist theory of
consciousness.

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But but you come have come to a
very different conclusion and

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your theory of consciousness is
very fascinating.

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I enjoyed reading it so much and
I'm excited to actually dive

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into this before we begin
discussing the nested observer

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windows, etcetera.
Firstly let's start with do you

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view consciousness as something
we directly access or most like

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a post hoc narrative
reconstruct?

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How does this tie into your work
on meta awareness?

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Yeah, it's it's really both.
So let's talk about meta

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awareness because that helps to
articulate my view about this.

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Often times when people talk
about consciousness, they talk

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about two levels.
They talk about unconscious

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processes and conscious
processes, and that distinction

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I think is spot on.
There's a lot of things that are

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simply going on below the
threshold of awareness and other

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things that we're fundamentally
experiencing.

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But I think it's important to
recognize a third level, and

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this third level is basically
just a content of consciousness,

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which is our explicit awareness
of what's going on in our minds.

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And a perfect example of this,
or sort of the canonical example

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is what I mentioned before, mind
wandering while reading.

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The interesting thing is that
almost all of us appreciate that

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you can't think about something
completely unrelated to what

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you're reading and
simultaneously attend to the

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text that you're reading.
And yet routinely we catch

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ourselves doing this.
And the question is, why do we

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so often wander away from what
we're reading when we know we're

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not able to do that?
Why don't we either stop reading

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or stop mind wandering?
And the answer we believe, and

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our evidence is consistent with
this, is that people are not

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aware of the fact that they've
mind wandered.

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They haven't noticed that their
mind is drifted away.

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And then there's that moment
where you snap and you go, Oh my

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gosh, I've done it again.
I was just mind wandering.

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It's almost like waking up, but
it's really a moment of gaining

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that awareness.
So this is an example of

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understanding where your mind is
when you hadn't before.

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And the idea is that we only
periodically check in and take

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stock of what's going on in our
mind.

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And that that meant awareness
when we do check in, that is a

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re representation of our
conscious experience to

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ourselves.
So we're going, oh, I was just

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mind wandering, but maybe we're
right about that.

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But sometimes we can be, we can
be wrong.

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And I refer to that as a
translation dissociation where

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in the process of re
representing the experience to

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ourselves, we may come to
distort it or misrepresent it in

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some significant way.
So returning to your question, I

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think it to the degree that
we're just having an experience,

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that experience just is what it
is.

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And we have, we are directly
having that experience.

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But when we try to describe that
experience to ourselves or to

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somebody else, we're now re
representing it and that's where

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there's the possibility of
distortion.

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So that's why I said both are
true.

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We have direct access to our
experience, but our capacity to

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describe that experience, to
communicate both to our to

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others and even to ourselves, is
a RE representation.

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And that's where distortions can
come in.

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It's it's difficult to sort of
understand well for someone

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who's not sure.
Let's try and rethink this in a

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mid, perhaps a different way.
It's kind of like when someone

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comes out of a a near death
experience, let's say, and the

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common argument is, did they
really experience that or was it

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just a memory, a recreation of
the memory of what happened

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after?
Is that similar to what you're

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talking about?
Yeah, that's, that would be

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another example where they
presumably they may well have

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had a real experience when that
happened, but all of that they

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have access to afterwards is the
memory of that.

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And that memory could be
distorted.

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Now it's interesting that many
people who have those

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experiences refer to them as
realer than real, and it causes

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them to question as much the
nature of this reality as it

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does that one.
And for the individual, you

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know, William James, as I'm sure
you know, you know, I spent a

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lot of time focusing on this.
For the individual who has these

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experiences, they are entitled
to use the that as evidence for

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their metaphysical presumptions,
but we shouldn't be expected to

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hold it with the same degree of
validity that that they do.

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And I think it's appropriate for
them to to question, you know,

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really deeply whether or not the
experience truly was as it

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seems.
Now there's this example of, of

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the, the idea that maybe the
memory, if we don't actually

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have the experience, we just
have the memory afterwards, is

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very similar or really in many
senses identical to Daniel

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Dennett's cassette theory of
dreams.

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And in his cassette theory of
dreams, this is of course, back

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at the time when we had, you
know, cassette recorders.

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The idea was that you don't
actually have an experience

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while you're dreaming.
What happens is that when you

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wake up, you, there's this sort
of brain activity which is like

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the equivalent of a cassette.
You pop it in there and then

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recreate an experience that
never actually happened in the

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1st place.
And that very actually, I think

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has been dismissed in rather
powerful ways because when

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people are engaged in lucid
dreaming, they're able to signal

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while they're actually dreaming.
So the rapid eye movement is

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happening.
They're able to actually show

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all of the evidence that they're
engaging in dreaming while still

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being able to signal to the
outside world, which since it's

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happening Co temporaneously with
the dream, indicates that

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they're actually having
experience during the dream and

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it's not just a retrospective.
So in the case.

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Jonathan, how do they do that?
Well, how do they signal while

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in OH?
Usually it's with their, with

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their eyes.
They move their eyes up, down,

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left, right.
And the eye is the only part of

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the body that's not paralyzed
when people are dreaming, which,

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00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,320
you know, of course is very good
because otherwise we'd be moving

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our arms and legs and it would
be quite a challenge.

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I'm trying to think about it
from a from an evolutionary

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perspective.
Let's say I'm in in the jungle,

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00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:58,760
I'm sort of trying to hunt for
food and I'm trying to do

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something and then mind
wandering occurs.

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00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:03,400
What would be the evolutionary
advantage of this?

290
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,280
Like what?
What am I either gaining or

291
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,960
losing from doing this?
Like what is really going on

292
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:09,640
here?
Sure.

293
00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:17,400
Well, when you're hunting, often
times it's gonna be problematic

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if you're mind wandering, if
you're not paying attention to

295
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,320
the tiger that might be sneaking
up on you while you're chasing

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00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,600
after the Mastodon to be.
Fair.

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00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,040
To be fair, I think picking
hunting as an example wasn't the

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00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,080
best choice.
Probably we can do it under the

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00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,200
least.
Yeah, exactly.

300
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,560
Yeah.
But even there, if if you're

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00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,160
hunting and there hasn't been,
you haven't seen any prey in a

302
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:49,960
long time, it's maybe time to
start just engaging in planning

303
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:56,360
and thinking about where else
might you might you go So and

304
00:18:56,360 --> 00:19:01,680
you you might, you might just be
there for a very long time, you

305
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:06,480
know, stalking your prey.
And you might be feeling like

306
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,440
you're up in a tree and you're
feeling pretty safe and you

307
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,440
don't have a lot of to do there
other than just sort of waiting

308
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,280
for some prey to go by.
So maybe this is a time to think

309
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,360
about how you might redecorate
your cave there.

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00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:24,480
There might be.
So basically we have all this

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00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:30,360
capacity and sometimes we're
using it for the task at hand,

312
00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:33,160
but oftentimes there's just not
much to do.

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00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:35,800
We just have to wait.
And if you're in a waiting

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situation and then there may be
real value to to mind wandering.

315
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:46,960
So when the surgeon is operating
on you, it's really not a good

316
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,840
time for him to be mind
wandering.

317
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:54,320
But while he's riding the the
bus home, you know, this might

318
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,800
be a good time to think about
some alternative way that he

319
00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,200
could have or she could have
done the surgery.

320
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,560
Well, OK, so we've, we've
spoken, we've spoken about mind

321
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,880
wandering, we've spoken about a
little bit of the meta awareness

322
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,280
part.
Let's go to your lab, meta lab.

323
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,480
Could you explain what it is?
I mean, we, I, I know of course

324
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,560
it's memory, emotion, thought
awareness at US at UCSB.

325
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,960
But how is let's talk about how
it's focused on mind wandering

326
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,520
and metacognition has shaped
your views now on consciousness

327
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,120
and perhaps go into what
happens.

328
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,400
Yeah.
So it's, it's both memory,

329
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,240
emotion, thought and awareness
and also the idea of meta, which

330
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,320
is sort of the step back looking
at the thing itself from a sort

331
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:45,080
of big picture perspective.
And that definitely is a sort of

332
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,760
a thread that happens in in
various different aspects.

333
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,200
So we've also been interested in
meta science that the science

334
00:20:54,200 --> 00:21:00,320
of, of, of science and a meta
perspective, the idea that you

335
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:05,320
can have multiple different
perspectives on things and

336
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,880
really sort of trying to look at
the big picture, which of course

337
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,760
brings us to thinking about the
big issues about what

338
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:18,360
consciousness is and how it
relates to to physical reality.

339
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:24,560
So it because we have this big
picture perspective, we tend to

340
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,240
look at a lot of different
aspects of the mind.

341
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:35,640
We tend to sort of look at how
we are actually experiencing

342
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,000
those things.
So our awareness of our emotions

343
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:44,680
and and so on.
And I would say that it's really

344
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:51,240
been sort of an interaction
between the nature of my mind

345
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,120
and the what we study sort of an
in a reciprocal way.

346
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:58,120
They they say that research is,
is me search.

347
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,840
And it certainly is the case
that I tend to be a mind

348
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,320
wanderer.
My mind wanders sort of all over

349
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,800
the place.
And it's maybe not surprising

350
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:15,120
that my research does the same.
And I tend to step back and look

351
00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:17,400
at the big picture.
And so it's not a surprising

352
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,760
that the research does, but
because as you engage, the more

353
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,280
study you engage in the
wandering, the more it takes

354
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,400
place, the more you you step
back and ask big picture

355
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,640
questions, the more I find
myself doing that.

356
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,440
And so this reciprocality
between my thinking and the

357
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,280
people who naturally are
attracted to joining my lab and

358
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,720
these processes place itself out
again and again.

359
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,680
And I think at this point, all
that work when people within

360
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,000
this sphere, I mean, we're both
obsessed with consciousness,

361
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,240
trying to understand this
phenomenon that that is, that is

362
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:52,960
becoming very, very popular at
this point.

363
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,080
Because even, I mean, this
podcast alone, when I started,

364
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,600
it wasn't really a big thing,
but suddenly it's been growing

365
00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,160
and growing.
And I think it's because people

366
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,840
have this desire to figure out
exactly what this is, because I

367
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,640
believe that theories of
consciousness have a lot of

368
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,160
philosophical slash ethical
implications as well.

369
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,600
So if you're, if you're a
materialist, fundamentally you

370
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,920
have certain views, OK, like
consciousness ends here.

371
00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:14,840
I mean, you should cut the tree.
It means nothing.

372
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,520
It means that.
So there's a lot of these.

373
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,160
And it just so happens that
idealism and panpsychism have

374
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,680
better meanings within the word
themselves.

375
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,200
For example, an idealist versus
a materialist outside of the

376
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,760
consciousness world, there's all
these play on words that have

377
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,120
these deeper meanings.
And at this point, when you look

378
00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:34,720
at your life and the way you
perceive consciousness, how

379
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,800
would you philosophically
describe yourself?

380
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:47,800
Well, so I have this motto of
entertaining without endorsing.

381
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:54,640
And so I see a lot of the
different perspectives as

382
00:23:55,120 --> 00:24:01,720
defensible and I'm open to
pretty much to many different

383
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:07,400
views with the, I will say that
illusionism, that's the one that

384
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,720
I have the hardest difficulty
with.

385
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:15,480
I, I spoke with Michael Graziano
once and he did move me from

386
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:20,320
being absolutely impossible to
giving it the remotest

387
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,800
possibility.
So illusionism is the idea that

388
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,600
that conscious experience itself
is an illusion, much the same

389
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,680
way that people think free will
is an illusion.

390
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,160
It seems like we're having
phenomenal experience, but

391
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,840
that's just a confusing a
representation with the reality

392
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,480
of things.
And to me that doesn't make

393
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,320
sense because even the illusion
of consciousness is an

394
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,760
experience.
And so in that sense, I don't I

395
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:51,680
it's very hard for me to get my
head around that, but I get that

396
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,360
we are capable of incredible
illusions.

397
00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:58,680
So I that one is the 1 I feel is
the most unlikely you're.

398
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,120
Looking to be fair.
I mean, Michael does a great job

399
00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:04,240
with his work, with his
attention screamer through

400
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,240
theory to to highlight exactly
how we fall into these traps.

401
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,080
I mean, he called he, he instead
of calling it an illusion, he

402
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,120
calls it a caricature.
We, we, we don't necessarily

403
00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:16,840
fall for an illusion, but rather
we craft this caricature of

404
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,360
reality.
That's what we believe it is.

405
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:25,160
Well, that I'm, that I'm more
open to in the sense that I

406
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:32,160
think it's very likely that our
experience of reality is a

407
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:40,440
construction which distorts and
creates a particular lens by

408
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,240
which we experience things.
And, you know, if a bee is

409
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,120
conscious, which I happen to
think it is, it may very well

410
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:54,760
have a very, very different
experience of, of reality in, in

411
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,560
all sorts of ways.
But returning to sort of my my

412
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:02,720
basic ontology, I think it's
defensible for materialists to

413
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,600
argue that we are nothing but a
pack of neurons that that that

414
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:14,840
the mind is exclusively material
in, in, in a fundamental way.

415
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:18,040
I think that's defensible.
I think it's defensible.

416
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:23,440
Personally, I think dualism is
I, I understand the ghost in the

417
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,280
machine a problem, but I think
there may be ways to to solve

418
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:28,680
it.
And all the different approaches

419
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,080
have really a fundamental
problem.

420
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:35,240
So I think the idea that there's
sort of two different realms,

421
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,160
the physical realm and the
conscious realm, and they sort

422
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:45,920
of interface in important ways.
I think that that there's that

423
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,480
monism that, that there's some
sort of other substrate, that

424
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,680
sorry, neutral monism, that
there's some other substrate

425
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,280
which is neither material or
conscious, which is sort of the

426
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:01,960
that the fundamental foundation
of consciousness or excuse me,

427
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,720
of reality.
And I also think that idealism

428
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:10,920
that this is all just
consciousness is, is plausible

429
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,120
and panpsychism, which is the
idea that there's a sort of

430
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,520
consciousness which is built
onto larger consciousnesses and

431
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,240
built onto larger
consciousnesses in a.

432
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:27,120
That actually is probably the
approach that I find myself most

433
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,160
a resonant with.
And we can get into the nested

434
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,520
observer window model, which
builds on that idea on the

435
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:41,480
general resonance theory.
But what I don't think is what I

436
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:47,720
disagree with is the what is
really sort of the primary view

437
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:53,120
of of science at the moment,
which is material reductionism

438
00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:59,840
is the exclusively defensible
ontology and all the others are

439
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,480
superstitious and don't warrant
consideration.

440
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:10,360
That's a view that I think is
short sighted and I think that

441
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,760
there are multiple different
ontologies that are consistent

442
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,600
with the scientific endeavor.
Yeah, I completely agree with

443
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,280
that.
I think that just like you, I

444
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,760
mean, it is the mark of an
educated mind to entertain an

445
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,920
idea without accepting it.
And, and that's primarily what

446
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,840
this podcast is about, exploring
all these ideas, putting

447
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,680
yourself in the shoes of
everyone trying to figure it

448
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,200
out.
I mean, I remember a time where

449
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,160
I would not even consider a non
brain theory of consciousness.

450
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:40,680
And that was just many years
ago.

451
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,240
But so I know exactly what you
mean.

452
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,560
And at this point, I've made it
a mission and goal to actually

453
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,120
embody a lot of these other
theories.

454
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,680
And and it becomes quite so
plausible to a point where you

455
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,000
you start to question your own
theory of consciousness.

456
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,440
And right now, as I, I always
say this on the show, but I'm,

457
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:56,880
I'm super agnostic at this
point.

458
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,520
I have no idea what
consciousness is, which is great

459
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,680
because it makes hosting this
podcast so much more fun because

460
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,640
then I get to dump into theories
like yours.

461
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,240
But you've laid out a little bit
of the groundwork for this.

462
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,200
Talk to me about the nested
observer windows.

463
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,280
Are we going to call it the now
model or what do you prefer to

464
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:15,480
do?
Yeah.

465
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,960
Yeah, I, well, I, I love the
risk of being of self

466
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,960
congratulatory.
I love the acronym now because

467
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:32,400
one of the conjectures of the
now model is that each window

468
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:38,000
may be nowing having its own
now, right that that every that

469
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,480
we are a constellation of
windows, all of nested observer

470
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,320
windows, each one having its own
phenomenal experiencing nowing

471
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:50,080
at its own particular rate.
Some the passage of time

472
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,160
happening in different rates for
different different windows.

473
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:54,800
OK.
I love that.

474
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:56,560
One more thing before you go on
there.

475
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,040
Sorry, Jonathan, did you make
meta as well?

476
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:00,920
Was that your idea for the?
Yeah.

477
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:08,360
Yeah, well, let's see, I I think
I came up with Meta and then

478
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,000
Johnny, Johnny Smallwood, my
long time collaborator who

479
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,960
tragically passed away just a
few months ago.

480
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,400
So a shout out to him and his
family.

481
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,920
He came up with a memory,
emotion, thought and awareness.

482
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,720
You guys have come.
Back amazing.

483
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:28,440
We knew.
We wanted it to be meta.

484
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,000
OK, well let's get into it.
So now let's talk about example

485
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,400
is how does this hierarchical
framework within information

486
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,840
integrated across spatio
temporal scales like mosaic of

487
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,720
nested windows, etcetera explain
levels of awareness and

488
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,280
potentially resolve debates in
consciousness science?

489
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:55,240
So first the the metaphor is a
mosaic photograph and a mosaic

490
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,560
photograph is a photograph where
every pixel of the photograph is

491
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,800
itself a photograph.
Your viewers, I invite them to

492
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,600
look, just check them out.
And you could imagine that each

493
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:12,360
one of those smaller pixels was
themselves also constituted of

494
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,640
pixels that were photographs in
sort of a fractal manner.

495
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:22,080
So this creates a sort of a
fractal representational system

496
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:27,040
in which you've got windows
nested in windows nested in

497
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,720
windows.
And the idea is that the

498
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,120
experience that we're having,
that you're having and that I'm

499
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,000
having is basically what we call
the apex window.

500
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,480
So it's sort of the top window
in in the system.

501
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,720
And what it's doing is
integrating the lower level

502
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,760
windows, which are then in turn
integrating lower level windows.

503
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:54,240
So each window is having an
experience unto itself and is

504
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,920
also integrating the the lower
level windows.

505
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,880
And the idea is, is that the,
what's known as the binding

506
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:08,760
problem, that what enables a
window to to have its sort of

507
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,440
holistic experience is that that
that window itself is, is, or

508
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,680
the elements of it are all
vibrating at the same time,

509
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:23,160
which creates a, a
synchronization that allows that

510
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,000
window to have its experience.
But with between different

511
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,160
windows at the same level,
they're having a different kind

512
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,840
of temporal relationship.
They're incoherence.

513
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,880
So like you and I are having a
back and forth.

514
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,000
So that's this coherence.
And then between up and down is

515
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,440
cross frequency coupling where
you have a very fast one

516
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,000
happening at at the lower level
and then slower ones, but

517
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,680
they're in harmony of some sort.
And between these three

518
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:57,520
different kinds of vibrational
resonances, this enables the

519
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:03,080
windows to interact and
communicate with each other both

520
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,760
laterally and and vertically.
So that's sort of the the

521
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,000
essence of it.
And what this enables is the key

522
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:18,680
issue of panpsychism, which is
how is it that the lowest level

523
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,040
monads or whatever you want to
imagine, are sort of the lowest

524
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,480
level?
How do those integrate into

525
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,600
larger and larger windows?
And the idea is that through

526
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,480
these three processes of
synchronization, which is the

527
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,680
simultaneity of elements in a
single window, coherence, which

528
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,760
is the communication between
windows at the same level and

529
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:47,640
cross frequency coupling, It
allows for the binding of of of

530
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,000
information and the the nesting
of it.

531
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,520
And you can see if you return
now to the mosaic photograph

532
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,680
metaphor, how that mosaic
photograph is in fact

533
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:06,160
integrating all of the lower
level windows in this very

534
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:08,840
coherent way where all the
information, some of it is

535
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,880
getting abstracted.
There's a lot of abstraction

536
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,760
that happens as you go up, but
it's but it's all there.

537
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,280
The final thing I want to
suggest is that we can kind of

538
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:23,000
experience these these
individual windows in in

539
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:25,600
phenomenologically a couple of
examples.

540
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,920
One I think is your tongue,
right?

541
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,480
Right now your tongue, it looked
like it was moving, it was doing

542
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,560
stuff right.
You weren't thinking about that.

543
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,560
It's got a mind of its own.
The tongue is is and it's also

544
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,239
integrating the taste buds,
right?

545
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,199
So there's it's a circuit,
presumably.

546
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,520
But so the idea is that there's
like a coherence to the, the

547
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,679
tongue as as an entity and quite
possibly other organs, the

548
00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:54,800
heart, the gut may have sort of
their own conscious experience.

549
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,160
There might be something it's
like to be your heart and you

550
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:02,120
can tune your apex towards it
and actually pick up some of the

551
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,200
feelings that are happening
there, but not the lower level

552
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,160
ones.
And then also when we experience

553
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:14,600
cognitive dissonance, when we,
when, when, when something is

554
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,360
said in our head, we, we hear,
we hear some, we, we say

555
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,320
something and we go, I don't
really believe that.

556
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,120
Well, there's a part of your
mind which is having that

557
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,320
experience and we're so there.
This is also related to

558
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,320
something known as internal
family systems where we may have

559
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:35,240
these sort of different agents
essentially in our, in our minds

560
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:37,080
that maybe aren't there all the
time.

561
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,160
They said some pop up and then
others pop up.

562
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,760
And so we are really sort of in
this sense a community and the

563
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,720
dissonance that we experience
when we're dealing with the

564
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:52,560
situation is because we have all
these different components to

565
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:54,880
ourselves.
And when we recognize this, it

566
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,680
can be very helpful.
So when when we say something,

567
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,320
it wasn't necessarily sort of
coming from our from our apex,

568
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,360
from our highest self, it was
coming from some sub component

569
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,440
of us which has got its own
issues and agendas.

570
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,920
And so we have to sort of, sort
of have to work to let all of

571
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:21,120
our bits get along.
Then tell me, Jonathan, when you

572
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,880
first came up with this or when
you first had this epiphany,

573
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,200
what were you searching for?
What were what was on your mind

574
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,280
building up to this to building
up to none?

575
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,040
I like that well.
I mean, I should say that the

576
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:40,200
Now model has been very much a
collaborative process.

577
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:45,040
So Justin Riddle is the the
first author on the paper and he

578
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,160
really was sort of key instead
of helping us to sort out the

579
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,640
the different types of
resonances that can take place.

580
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:58,400
And Tam Hunt also has
articulated general resonance

581
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,760
theory, which is the general
resonance theory is the nested

582
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,080
observer window model is is more
of a meta theory in the sense

583
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,520
that it can actually you can
sort of tweak different

584
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,760
assumptions and accommodate a
variety of different models.

585
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,200
Whereas the general resonance
theory has a lot of of greater

586
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,360
specifications and represents
sort of one in, in my view,

587
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,960
implementation of the nested
observer window approach.

588
00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:30,040
But I would say that the some of
the key things that was driving

589
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,880
thinking about in the 1st place
was this issue of the binding

590
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,920
problem.
How does if if consciousness

591
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:44,120
sort of is a fundamental aspect
of a physical reality, then how

592
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,520
is it that though that that
lowest level can integrate into

593
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:54,280
higher and higher levels?
But I should say that it's very

594
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:59,160
possible that the nested
observer window model is is

595
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:05,200
accurate in in important
respects and not accurate or in

596
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,280
other elements which are
conjectures don't pan out.

597
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:13,120
So it's possible that there is
this I that the there exists

598
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,960
nested observer windows.
So there are these windows which

599
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,960
are sort of organized in the way
that I'm suggesting, but that

600
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,880
consciousness is not an element
of those lower levels, that only

601
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:30,200
the apex has consciousness.
It's also possible that it goes

602
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:35,640
down to a certain level, hard to
say how how far down it goes.

603
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,400
But then below that the windows
don't have a consciousness and

604
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,200
then it's possible that it goes
sort of all the way down.

605
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:47,760
I will say that personally, I
feel like there's got to be a

606
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,920
bottom and there's got to be a
top.

607
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:55,680
It just the the idea that would
go infinitely down, just it

608
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,760
doesn't sit well with me.
I mean, this is almost an

609
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,480
aesthetic, so I I can't assert
this with with great confidence,

610
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,360
but I feel like there's a bottom
and there's a top.

611
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,280
Now, I should say, and this is
probably occurred to you and

612
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,120
your listeners, is that although
we experience ourselves as being

613
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:15,280
the apex, it's quite possible
that we are all pixels to yet a

614
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:21,040
higher level of consciousness.
Gaia, all these different, some

615
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,400
people might refer to God, but
whatever that higher level thing

616
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,040
is, it shouldn't be too full of
itself because it could also be

617
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:32,200
a pixel to yet a higher level 1.
So there may be windows upon

618
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,080
windows above the level that we
are experiencing things.

619
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,440
But again, my intuition is that
there's also a top that it

620
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,040
doesn't just keep expanding up
infinitely, but that's again

621
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,000
sort of an aesthetic.
Yeah, I guess you pretty much

622
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,120
answered my question there
because I was going to go back

623
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,000
to the analogy to say, I mean,
if you're looking at this

624
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,320
mosaic, I mean, surely there's
something looking at that mosaic

625
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,080
as well or there's something
above that mosaic that just

626
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,960
continues to go upward and
downward, but.

627
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,400
If we had to take this, let's
say from a scientific

628
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,960
perspective, because when when
it comes to materialist theories

629
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,120
of consciousness, and I and I do
think of a panpsychist view,

630
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,760
that can be very much a
physicalist materialist view.

631
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,440
So if you were to look at your
what we asked earlier, when

632
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,760
someone reports being conscious
of an experience, are they truly

633
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:27,120
accessing raw phenomenon or just
interpreting or is it just their

634
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,160
interpretation of it?
How might this how might the NOW

635
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,560
model help distinguish these
two?

636
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:34,680
Is that possible with the NOW
model?

637
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:43,120
Well, I mean, I think the now
model basically is assuming that

638
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,520
every time you bump up to a
higher level that there's a

639
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:54,080
abstraction, a process that's
taking place and that some of

640
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:59,760
the minute details that were
being represented at the at the

641
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:06,080
lower level are not going to be
accessed at the higher level.

642
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:07,400
And you know, we sort of see
this too.

643
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,400
Like for example, your fingers
know where all the keys on the

644
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,280
keyboard are, but you would
probably in order to figure out

645
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,680
where all the keys are, you
probably have to like watch

646
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,920
where your fingers go and, and
figure it out that way.

647
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,080
And you know, when people are
playing the piano, they're

648
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,600
playing at an incredible rate
and almost surely they're not

649
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:30,800
thinking about where every key
keystroke is going to take

650
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,720
place.
So there definitely is this a

651
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:35,640
compression that happens as we
go up.

652
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,720
And with that compression, the
details are lost.

653
00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:44,480
And so it's sort of a a
fundamental element of the model

654
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:52,320
that there's going to be a kind
of information loss in the as we

655
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:58,640
bump up and down the the system.
But in principle, we we may be

656
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:04,280
able to sort of start to
identify these communities of

657
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,720
elements that are in in
synchronization with each other

658
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:13,000
and through that process sort of
begin to map out of what's

659
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:19,360
happening at the different
levels and and what is being

660
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:27,200
lost in every level.
So although the the now model

661
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:34,080
lends itself, I think to non
material reductionist account,

662
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:39,240
I, I, I fully agree that you
can, it's, it's helpful and

663
00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:46,040
informative even if you really
take a hard nosed material

664
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:50,600
reductionist perspective and you
can then flesh out all sorts of

665
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,560
empirical predictions that fall
out of it.

666
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,560
Yeah, look, I think that well,
in this part, because that's not

667
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,640
really the goal.
It's not to necessarily find,

668
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,200
put someone on the on the spot
trying to give them, get

669
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,880
empirical evidence out of them.
The goal is actually to explore

670
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:08,120
this.
So I think for anyone who's

671
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,120
interested in this model and
doesn't know anything about it,

672
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,120
if you when you guys first
started with it, what was the

673
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,240
thought process like?
Well, what were you guys

674
00:43:17,240 --> 00:43:20,400
thinking?
Yeah, in terms of does this have

675
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,280
some some sort of a teleology,
for example, like does this go

676
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:24,720
anywhere?
Is this purposeful?

677
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,440
Where does this go?
Does it have free will for

678
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:34,240
example?
Well, I should say also that I

679
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:37,200
think this was one of the
longest papers to write.

680
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:42,520
I think Justin Riddle and I were
working on the now model for 6-6

681
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:49,920
years, maybe more.
So it was a long process of, of

682
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:54,000
discussion and, and unpacking
and, and key elements only sort

683
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:58,000
of emerge late on.
So the, the, the apex, which is

684
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,040
now sort of the key component of
the model wasn't there up until

685
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,600
maybe close to the, the, the
final year.

686
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,240
And once, once, once we put a
head on the thing it it really

687
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:13,280
sort of helped us to sort of
make sense of, to make sense of

688
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:20,160
everything.
But I think that there's another

689
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,760
model that I'd like to to
mention that is a potentially

690
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:29,120
complementary to the nested
observer window model, which

691
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:39,200
does have much more of a sort of
a metaphysical claims to it.

692
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:44,520
And in that sense is much more
speculative than the than the

693
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:49,360
now model.
So maybe let's shift to this

694
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,520
other model which I referred to
as which Riddle, Justin Riddle

695
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,000
and I also collaborated on
called the three dimensions of

696
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,760
time.
And then I we can actually embed

697
00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:02,840
the nested observer window model
in the three dimensions of time

698
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,160
model.
So if you'll, if you'll allow me

699
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,240
that, Jonathan.
Yeah, take, take your time, go

700
00:45:09,240 --> 00:45:11,240
into it as much as you want.
If the if you want the audience

701
00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:13,080
to understand this from the
core, go ahead.

702
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:21,160
OK, yeah, so let's start with
what we take as essentially 4

703
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:28,560
axioms of of existence.
And these axioms are derived

704
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:34,400
from first person experience and
and the bottom line is that you

705
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:38,600
have to axioms are the things
that you just have to assume you

706
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,480
can't prove them.
That's a definition of an axiom.

707
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:47,000
And so it makes sense that we
have to figure out what it is

708
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,480
that we're going to take as our
as our ground and just recognize

709
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:51,560
that these are assumptions,
right?

710
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,280
I'm assuming that you are
conscious too, that I'm speaking

711
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,120
to a conscious person.
I can't prove it.

712
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,320
I mean, I'm right now I'm just
speaking to like an image, you

713
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:03,480
know, but but I take it as we
take it as axioms.

714
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:09,560
Everybody, solipsism is very
distasteful, but there's no way

715
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,720
to prove that it's not just all
you.

716
00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:17,320
And I'm just a figment, not even
maybe I'm not only not

717
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:18,880
conscious, I might not even be
here.

718
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:24,320
You could be in a dream, but you
take it as an axiom that that

719
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,960
you're living in an actual
physical world that with other

720
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:30,880
beings, other conscious beings.
So we we're all doing this and

721
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,880
you can't prove it, but that's
OK because that's what axioms

722
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,600
are.
I'm going to put those two

723
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:43,080
axioms aside for the moment and
consider the ones that I think

724
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,280
really sort of fall out from
conscious experience.

725
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,000
The first one is what we already
talked about before with respect

726
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:55,160
to illusionism, and that is that
experience is happening.

727
00:46:55,160 --> 00:47:00,160
This is very aligned with
Descartes notion of I think

728
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:06,160
therefore I am, but I'm not even
maybe the I part is, you know,

729
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:10,080
I'm open to the ego being being
an illusion, but experience is

730
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,520
happening.
This just it seems to be an

731
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:18,480
essential thing that I that we
are taking for as an axiom.

732
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:23,480
Now a curious thing about these
axioms that sort of also comes

733
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:28,240
from my entertaining without
endorsing is even my axioms.

734
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,080
I have a little bit of
uncertainty about, as I

735
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,480
mentioned before, you know,
there's a tiny hint which I'm

736
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:40,120
open to illusionism, but even as
I list out my axioms, they're

737
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,360
sort of in the order of
confidence.

738
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,600
So I'm most confident that
experience happens.

739
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:50,000
The second thing is that
experience is always happening

740
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:57,960
in the present that there is
this sort of window with a

741
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,040
thickness to it, right?
So there's the, the, every, the

742
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,800
now actually has a little bit
of, of thickness.

743
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,880
We're we're, we're always and
there.

744
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,160
And that is where consciousness
is always happening.

745
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:12,720
It's always in the present.
So the present is fundamentally

746
00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:16,480
different from the past.
You can imagine the future, you

747
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,240
can remember the past, but
you're always doing that in the

748
00:48:19,240 --> 00:48:21,720
present.
So now is very special because

749
00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:25,600
that's where it's all happening.
That's where consciousness takes

750
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:27,760
place.
The third is that the very

751
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:33,360
nature of experience itself is a
flow.

752
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:38,960
There is a now, now, now, now.
It's always continually in this

753
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:45,480
dynamic process of unfolding.
So we are always in a sense

754
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,680
moving through time or time
we'll come back to this time is

755
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:54,440
moving through us.
So there's always this flow of

756
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,720
consciousness from now to now to
now and then the final one, and

757
00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:03,960
this is the one that I think is,
you know, sort of the most

758
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,480
tentative of the experiential
axioms.

759
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:11,560
But it sure does have a strong
sense in our day-to-day

760
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:16,080
experiences, which is that we
have some capacity to of

761
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,440
control, right.
I can decide to do this podcast

762
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:20,960
or not.
I can look over here.

763
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,320
I can look over there that the
consciousness actually

764
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:27,960
fundamentally it's experience
with agency.

765
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:33,520
That agency is sort of a key
aspect of our conscious state.

766
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:38,920
Now the interesting thing is
that these 4 axioms, the the

767
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:43,160
rising of experience or that
experience exists, that it's

768
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,640
always happening in the now,
that that experience is

769
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:51,040
intrinsically a flow of time and
that we have some kind of free

770
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:55,720
will, some control over it.
All these things are dismissed

771
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:01,880
presently in a mainstream
dismissed or just elusive to

772
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,440
mainstream science.
So the occurrence of experience,

773
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,040
that's the hard problem of
consciousness and the difficulty

774
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,960
of it is why illusionism is so
popular.

775
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,520
The privileged present, the fact
that it's all happening in the

776
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:20,480
now, in the block model universe
of physics, which basically

777
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,160
assumes that the past, the
present, future all exists

778
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,560
simultaneously.
There's nothing special about

779
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,160
now.
There's and also you can't move

780
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,120
through it.
There's no flow of time because

781
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,800
the past, the present and the
future all exist simultaneously.

782
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,240
And then of course, free will
is.

783
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:43,920
The notion that consciousness
has a causal role is problematic

784
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,920
for the obvious, for all sorts
of reasons, including that

785
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:51,840
there's a sort of A cause, an
uncaused 'cause, as it were.

786
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,080
So for me, there's this really
interesting challenge where the

787
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,880
things that seem to be the most
axiomatic aspects of my

788
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:05,440
existence don't have a place it
currently in the sort of

789
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:13,200
standard model in in science.
So that has encouraged me to try

790
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,120
to think about, well, what might
a model look like that could

791
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:20,000
incorporate these things?
And so the model that I'm about

792
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,240
to describe, I want to emphasize
it is it's a toy model.

793
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:28,080
It's it's, it's massively
underdeveloped.

794
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:32,160
But that also means that it's an
invitation for people to run

795
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:37,960
with it and to try to create
their own version of it.

796
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:41,600
And you might take some of the
assumptions and not others, but

797
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,560
I it's, it's sort of an example
of the kind of model that I

798
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:51,520
think might be able to
accommodate these 4 axioms.

799
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:55,240
The other thing I should
emphasize is that that I think

800
00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:59,880
in principle it might be
formalized mathematically, but

801
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:03,600
that it is it is wholly not as
currently defined.

802
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:09,560
And even the terms such as
dimensions are used in, but in

803
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,600
an informal manner, although I
do think it's possible that they

804
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,000
could be formalized.
Now, the final sort of thing in

805
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,400
the setup before I actually get
into the model is I think also

806
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,520
that it's very helpful if you
can.

807
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:26,440
We have a disproportionate
amount of our brain is dedicated

808
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:32,320
to visual cortex and when we can
visualize something, it really

809
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,920
helps in terms of thinking about
the idea.

810
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,120
So coming up with models of
consciousness that actually you

811
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:44,360
can generate a visual model for
and play with and manipulate and

812
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:46,360
think about, I think is is very
powerful.

813
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,600
That's why the nested observer
window model, I think with its

814
00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:53,680
mosaic photograph that provides
this makes it much more a

815
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:55,840
concrete.
And the three dimensions of time

816
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,320
model sort of builds on this
notion of let's create a three

817
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,800
dimensions, a visualizable
representation.

818
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:06,800
And it is therefore convenient
that the model IS3 dimensions.

819
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,960
So we can map what I'm going to
refer to as the three dimensions

820
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,280
of time onto the 3 dimensions of
space.

821
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:18,640
Now, in so doing, there's a bit
of arbitrariness about how I map

822
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,080
which dimension of time to which
dimension of space.

823
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,480
And I would invite people to
switch it round, but we're going

824
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,000
to go with one mapping.
OK, so here we go.

825
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,840
Let's start with the first
dimension.

826
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,880
So the first dimension is
objective time.

827
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,720
This is clock time.
This is the thing that's the

828
00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:42,200
most clearly measurable.
And for the purposes of

829
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,080
discussion here, we're going to
have that be forward.

830
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:49,200
OK, so you're, so basically
you've got a window and it's

831
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:56,320
moving forward in objective time
in a, you know, every moment

832
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:57,880
it's moving another second,
right?

833
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:04,280
So that's the simplest 1.
Now the second dimension is

834
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:07,640
subjective time, OK?
And we're going to imagine that

835
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:11,240
being up.
And so the idea is as the window

836
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:16,760
moves through information space,
which is essentially time, it's

837
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:20,720
got a vector in objective time
and subjective time.

838
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,840
Now, if that vector is
exclusively in objective time,

839
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:29,280
it has no movement whatsoever.
In subjective time, it's as if

840
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:33,200
you're under anesthesia.
There's absolutely no experience

841
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,280
whatsoever.
And if the vector is exclusively

842
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,800
up, which doesn't typically
happen, but in principle could

843
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:44,680
that would be where it's just
subjective time and objective

844
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,400
time stands still.
So this could be like when

845
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,240
people are on psychedelics and
it seems like the clock has

846
00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:53,240
stopped moving.
This may be of the experience

847
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:56,680
during mystical experiences,
awakening experiences, where it

848
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:00,200
seems as if time is an illusion.
What what I think they mean by

849
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,920
that is objective time is is is
stopped or an illusion.

850
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,400
Even when you're having an
awakening experience and time is

851
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,800
allegedly an illusion, you're
still having moment after moment

852
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,160
after moment of subjective
experience.

853
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:16,560
So there's always, any time you
are having an experience, you're

854
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:23,320
moving in subjective time.
Now the the angle can also vary

855
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,160
and we all experience this.
Sometimes we move faster in

856
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:28,760
subjective time relative to
objective time, and other times

857
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,000
we move slower.
So if you're in a car accident

858
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:33,880
and it seems like time is moving
very slowly, you've got a

859
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:37,960
greater vector in object, excuse
me, greater vector in subjective

860
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,800
time than in objective time.
You can also think of this as

861
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,560
like the number of sort of the
frame rate.

862
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:47,360
So if you're going like this,
you're having a lot of

863
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,720
subjective frames per objective
moment.

864
00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:57,440
So it's almost like you've got a
very fast photography, right?

865
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,040
That's this doing a very high
frame rate.

866
00:56:00,240 --> 00:56:04,160
And then when you're going maybe
in a very deep conversation,

867
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:05,920
we've got a lot of information
per moment.

868
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:09,120
Perhaps as you're listening to
this thing, then time may seem

869
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,520
like it's going very quickly
because every moment is it got a

870
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:16,800
greater vector in objective time
than subjective time.

871
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:21,160
So you're having these bigger
sort of blocks of of experience.

872
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,760
So those are the 2 dimensions,
objective time and subjective

873
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,560
time.
And I think that the idea that

874
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,880
subjective time is as real as
objective time may be sort of a

875
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,560
challenge.
But if you think about it, if

876
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,040
anything, subjective time is
more important, more real than

877
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,240
objective time.
Like, would you rather live a

878
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:44,880
day that felt like a lifetime or
a lifetime that felt like a day?

879
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,960
I think most of us would prefer
the day that felt like a

880
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:50,520
lifetime.
OK, so you're maybe wondering

881
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:52,600
what the Well, you probably
know, but your readers may be

882
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,120
wondering what the third
dimension of time is.

883
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:59,080
And the third dimension of time
is alternative time.

884
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:02,600
It's the idea that every moment
our window has a little bit of

885
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:11,200
wiggle room and can essentially
choose or is able to navigate

886
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:14,360
alternative possible timelines.
So what this means is that the

887
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:19,720
future is open and with that
addition that provides the

888
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:23,080
opportunity for for free will
because consciousness is

889
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:29,000
actually able in some manner to
choose between alternative next

890
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:30,320
moments.
And there's not a lot of wiggle

891
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:34,920
room in any particular moment.
So it's not like we're entirely

892
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:36,920
free.
There's all these pressures that

893
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:39,080
are pushing US one way or
another.

894
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:44,280
Another metaphor I like, by the
way, is thinking about is this

895
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:50,040
like a sailor sailing where
we're being, There's the wind

896
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:55,480
and the waves and the current
and there's no power or reliant

897
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:59,320
on the wind to move.
But nevertheless, we still can

898
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:04,080
navigate the, the rudder and the
sails to some degree.

899
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:07,920
And so that that metaphor is
sort of the idea that we're

900
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:13,960
essentially sailing our window
through the three 3 dimensions

901
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:18,040
of time.
Now notice this approach now is

902
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,640
able to accommodate the four
things that I just mentioned.

903
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:24,880
So subjective experience
involves windows that have an

904
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:29,840
access or a vector in this here
to for not acknowledged

905
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:35,000
subjective dimension of reality.
And it's very plausible that

906
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:39,680
many things that this is sort of
the way that panpsychism works

907
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:42,520
is that all the lower level
things have a vector in a

908
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:46,160
subjective experience and it
provides a place for

909
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:50,880
subjectivity.
The movement of the window

910
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:56,640
through objective and subjective
time produces a flow of time and

911
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,680
also allows you to move through
the block universe because it's

912
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,840
sort of a block multiverse and
you're moving through objective

913
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:04,800
time relative to subjective
time.

914
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:10,400
So it now gives you a a way to
think about how to actually have

915
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:13,320
subjective experience.
Also, you have the present.

916
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:18,960
Now is where subject is, is the
windows location and objective

917
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:23,920
time relative to subjective
time, and finally free will is

918
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:29,400
the capacity to choose between
alternative dimensions.

919
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:34,200
Now the final thing in this
model is so far I've had the

920
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:39,200
window moving through time.
But another way to think about

921
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:44,600
it is that time is moving
through all the windows.

922
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:48,840
So, so we imagine all the
windows as essentially fixed and

923
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:53,840
time is moving through us.
And what that allows is for each

924
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:58,360
one of us to be able to have, If
we were all moving through time,

925
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:02,080
then we'd all be branching off
in different parallel universes.

926
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:04,800
Whereas when time is moving
through us and we've got this

927
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:08,120
vector and alternative time as
it approaches us, each one of us

928
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:09,840
has got our own little vector
which is.

929
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:14,280
Allowing us to carve off the
possible next moment.

930
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,880
But they all get integrated
together in the present.

931
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:21,280
And so the collapse of
alternative time in the present

932
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:23,880
allows for us all to be sort of
staying together.

933
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:27,600
And so we can kind of imagine
this as it, we're like a giant

934
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:31,960
kite of consciousness where time
is passing through us and we're

935
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:37,880
all tethered together and not
veering off into different

936
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:39,880
things.
And then this allows all of our

937
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:43,080
nested observer windows.
They're also, they're ahead of

938
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:47,080
us and each one of them is also
moving in these 3 dimensions of

939
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:48,680
time.
And they're sort of pulling

940
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:50,240
things together as they get to
us.

941
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:54,560
And then we're moving as well in
this whole kind of

942
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:57,320
consciousness.
Moving through time potentially

943
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:04,520
provides a way to think about
how subjectivity could have a

944
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:11,160
foundation in physical reality.
That's a it's a lot.

945
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:16,360
That's I'm wondering if the
average distance is going to go

946
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:18,480
back and re because this is that
type of podcast.

947
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:21,120
Someone's going to go back and
re watch this at least about 5

948
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,040
to 6 times.
You finally put the wrap the

949
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:24,200
head around it.
I know I will.

950
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:29,280
So OK, let me get this straight.
So Jonathan, if if you think of

951
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:34,200
the when you did this, was this
coming from a psychologist

952
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:36,760
entering the realm of physics
and understanding that there's

953
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:40,160
certain aspects here that just
have flaws that are not being

954
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:42,400
addressed?
Or were you always someone

955
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,840
interested in the physical
reality and notice that these

956
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,720
vectors, etcetera existed and
then trying to implement the

957
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,000
philosophic, the psychological
element afterwards?

958
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:57,600
How did you come to do this?
So I was really, I'm a huge fan

959
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:03,440
of Brian Greene, although I'm
sure he would have take great

960
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:06,960
issue with many of the things
that I say, I say and and, and

961
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:10,640
might even be aghast to hear
that he was a, you know, an

962
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:14,520
inspiration for for some of
these ideas.

963
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:16,680
Inspired.
He inspired something that he

964
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:21,720
might really not be happy with.
Exactly, I'm pretty confident he

965
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:24,040
will not be happy about this.
You know, for, you know, 6

966
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:29,040
different reasons.
But that said, when, when I was

967
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:33,040
hearing, you know, hit the, the
Nova special in the elegant

968
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:38,280
universe, which is just such a
wonderful set and learning that

969
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:42,360
with string theory, that the way
that they got out of these

970
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:46,560
really thorny issues was to
assume a different additional

971
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:50,280
dimensions at physical reality.
And it was like, well,

972
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:54,920
consciousness, if anything
deserves an additional

973
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:58,280
dimension, it's, it's, it's
consciousness.

974
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:02,840
And so that got me thinking
about sort of this, the, the,

975
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:06,520
the, the 2 dimensions.
And then as I sort of, you know,

976
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:13,800
dove into it more and, and found
out that the, the standard model

977
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:20,720
doesn't allow or assumes
essentially that, that the flow

978
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:23,160
of time and the privileged
present are an illusion of

979
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,440
consciousness.
That sort of emboldened me to

980
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:30,480
think, well, maybe this really
is something that physicists

981
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:33,400
should consider.
And I actually had the privilege

982
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:38,920
of, of hearing Brian Greene give
a talk here in Santa Barbara and

983
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:40,840
I was able to ask him a
question.

984
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:46,880
And I asked him, how do you
reconcile the, the experiential

985
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:52,880
dynamic quality of experience
where it's there's a clear flow

986
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:57,160
of time with physics sort of
static view that, that it's just

987
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:00,000
an illusion.
And he said, I see a

988
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:03,360
psychiatrist consciousness is
capable of all sorts of

989
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:06,280
illusions and the flow of time
is just another one of those.

990
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:10,040
And, and for me, I think that's
defensible.

991
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:14,200
I, I mean, I, I, I encourage him
to take that approach if that's

992
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:18,520
what works for him, but it
doesn't work for me to, to just

993
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:23,040
dismiss the flow of time as an
illusion doesn't feel adequate.

994
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:26,080
And it suggests that if that's
what your physics model

995
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:31,200
requires, that you really should
consider other other approaches

996
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:33,720
that might be able to
accommodate this fundamental

997
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:36,720
aspect of seemingly fundamental
aspect of existence.

998
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:39,000
I think, OK, and let's get back
to that.

999
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:43,920
Do you refer to that as the
nowing when it's coming to what

1000
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:47,400
is going moving through you at
that point through?

1001
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:49,280
The window.
That's the nowing exactly, yes.

1002
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:52,240
If if someone else was watching
this, listening to perhaps an

1003
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,680
undergrad, A postgrad, someone
wants you to take this further,

1004
01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:58,920
which aspects of this work do
you think need the most

1005
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:06,160
refinement?
I mean all of it.

1006
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:08,880
So I I should emphasize it on my
web.

1007
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:13,200
Yeah, on my website you can find
both the the nested observer

1008
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:15,720
window model and the three
dimensions of time model.

1009
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:19,280
And I would say.
Links to all of that for you

1010
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:21,040
Jonathan, as well.
Great.

1011
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:27,840
I would say that sort of one key
thing is objective time, you

1012
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:32,400
know, has this a really clear
metric, right?

1013
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:36,280
It's, it's, it's the clock time,
whereas the, the measure of

1014
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:41,920
subjective time, like how do you
what, what's the units of, of

1015
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:44,520
subjective time is a really sort
of intriguing thing.

1016
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:49,880
I mean, we, we, we intuitively
know that we experienced the

1017
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:54,040
passage of time in going faster
and going slower, But can we

1018
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:59,280
really sort of nail down what
that, what that unit is?

1019
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:05,120
And then also reconciling, are
you still there?

1020
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:07,680
You're, it looks like you're
very still, but you could be

1021
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:15,240
frozen.
Well, I can't hear you.

1022
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:17,720
Oh.
Sorry I said I can see you but

1023
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:20,040
it for some reason it did say
the connection was super low.

1024
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:21,240
Yeah.
OK.

1025
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:23,400
So you were you were frozen
there for for.

1026
01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:25,520
Anyone watching or listening,
there's a massive storm outside.

1027
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:29,600
I'm sorry about that.
But yeah, Jonathan, you're still

1028
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:31,040
live on my side.
Everything looks good, OK.

1029
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:32,360
Great.
All right.

1030
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:41,400
So essentially a second issue is
the how to measure the movement

1031
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:46,880
in subjective time in a in a
very precise way.

1032
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:51,080
And I think that's doable.
There are all sorts of different

1033
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:55,480
sort of time perception types of
techniques, but one of the

1034
01:06:55,480 --> 01:07:00,640
things that is is challenging is
the idea that the different

1035
01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:04,400
nested observer windows may be
actually having different

1036
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:07,800
vectors in objective versus
subjective time.

1037
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:13,200
So the visual system may well
have a steeper vector, so it's

1038
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:16,560
having more subjective moments
per objective moment than the

1039
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:20,640
apex.
And this may help to reconcile a

1040
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:26,400
key sort of thorn in the side of
this theory, which is a finding

1041
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:30,200
by David Eagleman that's a
really ingenious study.

1042
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:34,440
He essentially had people engage
in something in the equivalent

1043
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:39,080
of bungee cord jumping while
they were looking at a a device

1044
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:42,880
that had a a flicker to it.
And they had to sort of decipher

1045
01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:45,640
what the information in the
flicker was.

1046
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:49,920
And what he found was, is that
even though their experience of

1047
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:53,920
time was a very much expanded
when they were doing this bungee

1048
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:59,920
jumping activity, their capacity
for deciphering the, the

1049
01:07:59,920 --> 01:08:02,040
flickering device was not
enhanced.

1050
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:06,520
And So what he he concluded is
that that it was just an

1051
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:11,040
illusion of that time is slowing
down, but but you're not

1052
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:17,000
actually seeing a increase in
the temporal resolution of, of

1053
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:19,840
the brain.
And what I would argue is that

1054
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:23,960
when you have this, when you're,
when you're doing the bungee

1055
01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:30,520
cord jumping, the, the, the
movement in time, objective

1056
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:37,040
subjective time of the apex is
changed, giving it a more

1057
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:39,319
subjective moments per objective
moment.

1058
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:42,120
But the lower level windows are
staying the same.

1059
01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:46,040
Their angle hasn't changed.
And that's why the system is

1060
01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:52,880
equally good at recognizing the
what's happening in that

1061
01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:55,520
flickering device, even though
time is slowing down.

1062
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:58,920
And there are some other studies
which have found a relationship

1063
01:08:59,120 --> 01:09:04,720
between temporal acuity and
subjective experience.

1064
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:09,800
But the the key, the idea then
is that what we need to do is

1065
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:18,279
find a measure that captures the
time frequency of the apex.

1066
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:22,680
And the idea is that the apex
may actually be vibrating,

1067
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:27,479
resonating at a much lower rate
than we typically think.

1068
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:31,439
It may be sort of at the, the
level of a second or more, which

1069
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:36,920
is why, you know, we can process
visually things happening very

1070
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:38,840
quickly.
But sort of in terms of the rate

1071
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:44,760
of ideas, if they come too fast,
we can't, there's a limit to how

1072
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:48,880
much we can hold on to.
People may want to slow down the

1073
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:53,000
video here because I've been
talking so, so fast.

1074
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:58,240
So that's so understanding the
sort of the time rate of the

1075
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:02,520
different windows I think is a
really important thing.

1076
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:05,440
And then the third thing, the
most speculative thing is this

1077
01:10:05,440 --> 01:10:11,160
notion of alternative time.
And and here I think it's

1078
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:15,000
possible that the mathematics
that's been used in the many

1079
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:19,880
worlds theory in quantum physics
might be applicable.

1080
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:24,800
But rather than imagining that,
that we're constantly branching

1081
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:29,280
off in instead the many worlds
view when in Schrodinger's cat,

1082
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:31,720
there's one version of you that
finds a living cat and another

1083
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:34,440
version of you that finds a dead
cat.

1084
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:39,040
And we're constantly branching
off into these alternative

1085
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:43,200
worlds constantly.
And in many ways it's the least

1086
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:45,440
parsimonious model ever
articulated because of the

1087
01:10:45,440 --> 01:10:49,160
number of simultaneous new
branching universes that are

1088
01:10:49,160 --> 01:10:52,440
required to do it.
But in this model, all those are

1089
01:10:52,440 --> 01:10:57,400
just possibilities and only the
only the reality that actually

1090
01:10:57,480 --> 01:11:02,480
is observed by every window is
actually come comes to pass so

1091
01:11:02,480 --> 01:11:07,120
that the kite of consciousness
is defining A singular reality

1092
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:09,680
as opposed to all this branching
ones.

1093
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:15,560
Nevertheless, I think it's
possible that that model could

1094
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:22,000
be adapted to capture the the
mathematics of what I'm

1095
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:25,160
imagining.
And then again though, with

1096
01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:28,840
respect to this alternative time
dimension, what are the units,

1097
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:34,560
what, what formalizing what that
would that would constitute and

1098
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:38,600
and and and make turning that
into a, a dimension, A

1099
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:42,960
meaningful dimension, I think
could be extraordinarily

1100
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:45,160
challenging, but I think
possible.

1101
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:49,200
Yeah, I think it's it's, it's
really fascinating.

1102
01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:51,720
There's so many implications to
this and so many ways to

1103
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:53,920
approach it.
Regarding this podcast

1104
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:57,320
specifically, I have some
specific questions about the NOW

1105
01:11:57,480 --> 01:11:59,440
model, if you'd like me to ask.
Would you mind?

1106
01:11:59,920 --> 01:12:01,200
Yeah.
OK, Jared, no, please.

1107
01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:05,920
One of the first ones I had was,
let's say, in terms of the core

1108
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:08,760
framework, you describe
consciousness as this nested

1109
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:12,640
mosaic, as we've just discussed,
where each of the window is like

1110
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:15,720
a tile made of small, smaller
tiles, let's say.

1111
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:19,760
But how does it, how does that
puzzle if, if you were to

1112
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:22,040
explain it to someone, explain
it to me like I'm 5?

1113
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:27,600
If, if, if you had to see it
feeling like if you had to

1114
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:33,000
explain this puzzle being one
puzzle or unified as a single

1115
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:36,640
self, even though the brain's
processing is so distributed in

1116
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:39,880
this regard, how would you
explain that?

1117
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:43,000
How would it all become one?
Does this be ever become one?

1118
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:45,080
Is the experience ever unified
in any sense?

1119
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:47,800
Yeah, it does my.
Question make sense?

1120
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:51,200
I'm not sure if it does.
And that's where the apex

1121
01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:56,080
becomes so important because if
you imagine that you're looking

1122
01:12:56,080 --> 01:12:59,880
at that very top photograph, the
very top photograph, that

1123
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:05,120
photograph is integrating all
those lower level pixels and

1124
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:07,680
each one of those pixels is
integrating all those lower

1125
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:10,200
level pixels.
Now each one of those individual

1126
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:14,760
pixels may be having their own
experience, but you are just

1127
01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:18,720
having the experience of the the
top window.

1128
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:24,360
But you're still able to turn
your apex and focus on different

1129
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:28,200
lower level windows.
And so you're actually able to

1130
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:33,000
integrate a significant
proportion of those lower level

1131
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:34,080
ones.
And they're all getting

1132
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:36,320
integrated from the the lower
level ones and the lower level

1133
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:39,120
ones.
So when you imagine being the

1134
01:13:39,120 --> 01:13:43,640
top window in this sort of
hierarchy of windows upon

1135
01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:46,520
windows, and all the windows
have some transparency to them.

1136
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:51,800
So even the lowest level 1 is
getting some of its image into

1137
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:56,480
that, that top 1.
So you could I, what I would

1138
01:13:56,480 --> 01:14:00,120
want to do is to show, to sort
of create a visual

1139
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:04,600
representation of this windows
upon windows upon windows, show

1140
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:06,840
it to the five year old.
They'd look through that top

1141
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:09,520
window and go, Oh yeah, I see
that really is integrated.

1142
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:12,040
But then they'd walk along the
side and they go, oh, but look

1143
01:14:12,040 --> 01:14:14,600
at all those lower level windows
that are all doing the different

1144
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:16,240
thing.
And then they peek in a lower

1145
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:17,640
level window and go, oh, look at
that.

1146
01:14:17,720 --> 01:14:19,280
This one's having an experience
too.

1147
01:14:19,480 --> 01:14:22,120
And, and, and by actually
interacting.

1148
01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:26,960
And we're actually a goal is to
create a physical visual

1149
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:29,360
representation of it where you
can actually sort of inspect it

1150
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:34,000
in a Science Museum.
Actually encountering it I think

1151
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:35,760
would would help them to
understand how it's

1152
01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:40,160
simultaneously unified from the
vantage of the apex, but also

1153
01:14:40,160 --> 01:14:42,480
has all these disparate
elements.

1154
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:45,000
Yeah.
It's it's kind of it opens up

1155
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:48,440
possibilities in the sense that
consciousness at the apex occurs

1156
01:14:48,440 --> 01:14:51,760
and then the other emergent
thresholds or even pen psychic

1157
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:54,360
across all scales.
You could think about it and

1158
01:14:54,360 --> 01:14:57,640
then, but I would.
If you think about it from an

1159
01:14:57,640 --> 01:15:00,280
idealist perspective, do you
feel like each of these nested

1160
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:05,800
windows could have information
stored for an ultimate mosaic

1161
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:10,200
final entity?
Yeah, yeah.

1162
01:15:10,360 --> 01:15:18,040
So in, in principle, these there
could be sort of all, all

1163
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:23,920
elements in just the imagination
of the the apex.

1164
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:29,160
So it also lends itself to
idealism in a certain sense.

1165
01:15:29,160 --> 01:15:43,080
Although, you know, I will say
that I, I would, this may sound

1166
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:50,560
sacrilegious, but the, the sort
of the view that comes up in, in

1167
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:57,120
sort of Judeo-christian models
of, of God being sort of this

1168
01:15:57,120 --> 01:16:01,720
all knowing, omnipotent, knowing
past, present, future and

1169
01:16:01,720 --> 01:16:07,720
everything that seems just
horrific to, there'd be no

1170
01:16:07,720 --> 01:16:12,160
wonder, no like to, it would be
incredibly tedious.

1171
01:16:12,160 --> 01:16:17,480
And, and so if there is, if
there is a final apex, I'm

1172
01:16:17,480 --> 01:16:24,520
hoping that it's one on a
mission of discovery and of, of

1173
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:29,320
unfolding and that each one of
us is actually contributing to

1174
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:36,280
its, it's, it's it's journey in
a, in a, in a meaningful way,

1175
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:42,240
rather than this sort of awful
omnipotent, omnipresent version

1176
01:16:42,240 --> 01:16:46,040
that is is represented.
So when you take the perspective

1177
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:48,680
of of God in that model, I don't
know it.

1178
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:50,760
Yeah.
No, I think I agree with you

1179
01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:52,680
with that.
I think, I think moving on to

1180
01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:55,720
that sort of creativity and sort
of looking out for new

1181
01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:59,960
experiences and wonder, let's
tie back to your classic work.

1182
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:05,360
How might mind wandering, let
mid level windows chat

1183
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:08,520
laterally, let's say.
So skipping the apex to spark

1184
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:10,960
creativity perhaps.
Any predictions from now?

1185
01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:12,160
Yeah.
Yeah.

1186
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:18,240
So we often times have the
experience of mind wandering

1187
01:17:19,040 --> 01:17:23,880
while driving, right.
And so our we're, we're driving

1188
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:25,560
and yet our mind is really
somewhere else.

1189
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:28,200
And yet if you, if you sort of
look at what's happening,

1190
01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:32,000
there's a part of us that seems
like it's really reasonably

1191
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:36,000
paying attention, right?
So in this sense, you can kind

1192
01:17:36,000 --> 01:17:38,320
of see the different modules.
You've got the mind wandering

1193
01:17:38,400 --> 01:17:41,520
module, which is where the apex
is focused, and then you've got

1194
01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:45,640
the driving model, which is
still able to, it's visibly

1195
01:17:45,640 --> 01:17:50,600
conscious in all sorts of ways.
Now an interesting question is

1196
01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:55,200
what happens when we shift our
consciousness back to the

1197
01:17:55,200 --> 01:17:59,280
driving and now the apex is no
longer focusing on the mind

1198
01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:01,560
wandering?
Has the mind wandering entirely

1199
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:03,200
stopped at that point?
That's sort of the typical

1200
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:08,320
assumption, but maybe not.
Maybe when we focus back on the

1201
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:12,800
the road, the mind wandering is
just happening but but behind

1202
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:15,600
the scenes, right.
And so this provides a way to

1203
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:18,840
think about incubation.
You know, how is it that Juan

1204
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:22,520
Carre was just stepping on the
bus and then boom, the solution

1205
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:28,760
to Fuchsian functions and it's
it's it's relationship to to

1206
01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:33,000
geometry of the past came to
mind for him.

1207
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:37,680
Well, if he was mind wandering
sort of unconsciously, but the

1208
01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:40,160
mind wandering system may
actually have been having an

1209
01:18:40,160 --> 01:18:43,640
experience, then this really
makes a lot of sense.

1210
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:46,920
So the possibility that we could
have multiple streams of

1211
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:50,840
consciousness going on in our
mind simultaneously, and that

1212
01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:53,800
sometimes we're attending to the
mind wandering and sometimes

1213
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:57,600
we're not, but it's still
percolating without us, provides

1214
01:18:57,600 --> 01:19:00,840
a way to think about how
creativity and creative

1215
01:19:00,840 --> 01:19:03,600
incubation might take place.
Yeah.

1216
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:06,400
And so I think that then that
sort of cross talk and cross

1217
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:11,360
experience, would that then
explain or how would that

1218
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:13,280
explain something like a split
brain case?

1219
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:15,960
Is it the same thing?
Yeah.

1220
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:20,960
So the split brain is sort of if
the closest thing to evidence

1221
01:19:21,440 --> 01:19:25,480
for or one of the the strongest
bits of evidence for the model

1222
01:19:25,480 --> 01:19:30,680
is the split brain case where it
really does seem as if you're

1223
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:34,600
able to measure the separate
streams of consciousness

1224
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:37,640
associated with the left and the
right hemisphere.

1225
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:41,480
And it's interesting that there
have been some cases where

1226
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:46,160
people with split brains
actually can do things that that

1227
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:50,160
people with an intact brains
can't do in the sense that you

1228
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:53,720
can give a different tasks to
the two hemispheres and they can

1229
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:57,760
engage in them simultaneously.
And and one idea that Justin

1230
01:19:57,760 --> 01:20:02,560
Riddle and I are excited to
explore is the possibility.

1231
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:07,800
That other types of
dissociations that show up from

1232
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:11,520
time to time.
This appeared to be indicative

1233
01:20:11,600 --> 01:20:18,560
of of these separate windows
could show similar advantageous

1234
01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:21,680
capacity.
So for example, if you have

1235
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:25,960
someone with dissociative
identity disorder, can you give

1236
01:20:27,320 --> 01:20:31,080
have one identity listen to 1
ear and the other identity

1237
01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:34,160
listen to the other?
In a diaconic listening task, we

1238
01:20:34,160 --> 01:20:36,760
have different messages going
into both ears and can they

1239
01:20:36,760 --> 01:20:40,120
actually extract more
information than somebody who

1240
01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:42,800
has experiencing it in in a
unified way?

1241
01:20:42,800 --> 01:20:47,640
Or there's also a phenomenon
known as Tulpa's where people

1242
01:20:47,640 --> 01:20:51,800
basically imagine that they have
an imaginary friend and, and

1243
01:20:52,000 --> 01:20:55,000
talk to their imaginary friend
and, and just assume this

1244
01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:59,200
imaginary friend exists.
And allegedly or these

1245
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:03,080
individuals experience or their
report as they experience one

1246
01:21:03,080 --> 01:21:07,520
day where the tulpa wakes up and
takes on sort of a mind of its

1247
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:09,880
own.
And so then is it possible to

1248
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:14,120
give again in a dichotic
listening experiment, we have

1249
01:21:14,120 --> 01:21:16,480
one message going to 1 ear and
another message going to the

1250
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:18,480
other.
Can you have the tulpa pay

1251
01:21:18,480 --> 01:21:22,080
attention to 1 message and the,
the tulpa man, So the person

1252
01:21:22,080 --> 01:21:25,440
with the tulpa paying attention
to another and can they show a

1253
01:21:25,440 --> 01:21:29,400
greater capacity to listen to
both things simultaneously?

1254
01:21:29,400 --> 01:21:35,640
So these types of experiments
could be sort of a first pass at

1255
01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:42,160
being able to illustrate the,
the, the independence streams of

1256
01:21:42,160 --> 01:21:45,400
these, these different things
and, and final internal family

1257
01:21:45,400 --> 01:21:49,720
systems where you've got sort of
these different essentially

1258
01:21:49,720 --> 01:21:53,160
family members taking place in
the mind simultaneously.

1259
01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:56,160
And and can we sort of see that
that those different systems

1260
01:21:56,160 --> 01:21:58,840
that people have been sort of
practiced with that can they

1261
01:21:59,000 --> 01:22:04,640
also have the different elements
attend to different components?

1262
01:22:06,520 --> 01:22:09,920
Yeah, I think it's there's so
many broad implications and you

1263
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:12,520
already mentioned those two now,
but another one was what you

1264
01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:14,160
mentioned earlier when it comes
to dissonance.

1265
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:18,200
It's it's sort of that poor into
window coherence occurring,

1266
01:22:19,200 --> 01:22:21,760
which is quite fascinating.
And then I mean, if you had to

1267
01:22:21,760 --> 01:22:26,240
think about it, look further, do
you think that how do, let's say

1268
01:22:26,440 --> 01:22:29,920
now holds up?
How could it change how we think

1269
01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:34,000
about psychiatry, AI design,
even collective or psychedelic

1270
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:35,800
consciousness?
What's the most exciting

1271
01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:38,200
extension you're pondering right
now?

1272
01:22:39,320 --> 01:22:46,560
Well, I mean, one thing that I
find is very helpful is when

1273
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:53,680
when I, when I find myself as
dealing with a difficult

1274
01:22:53,840 --> 01:22:58,400
situation and stuff comes up for
me.

1275
01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:06,120
And if I appreciate that that's
just one window speaking, that's

1276
01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:09,640
just the opinion of that
particular window.

1277
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:15,760
And I don't need to, to, to, to
view it as a sort of sort of my

1278
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:19,080
own.
And in so doing it, it allows us

1279
01:23:19,080 --> 01:23:21,760
to take sort of a different
perspective.

1280
01:23:21,760 --> 01:23:24,680
It, it, it does sort of relate
to sort of the mindfulness of

1281
01:23:24,680 --> 01:23:30,600
perspective, where rather than
being the, the, the speaker of

1282
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:33,120
our mind, we're the listener,
right?

1283
01:23:33,120 --> 01:23:36,440
And so the apex is basically
just watching all these

1284
01:23:36,440 --> 01:23:38,720
different windows providing
stuff.

1285
01:23:38,960 --> 01:23:42,080
And, and when you take the
advantage of, oh, you know,

1286
01:23:42,120 --> 01:23:45,600
jeez, that window just it's a
little bit like inside out,

1287
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:48,720
right?
The, the, the, the Pixar movie

1288
01:23:49,480 --> 01:23:55,160
inside out, I think it's Pixar.
It's very much like that in

1289
01:23:55,160 --> 01:23:58,080
which you've got you, you come
to appreciate that these

1290
01:23:58,080 --> 01:24:02,160
different voices in your mind
are holding different

1291
01:24:02,160 --> 01:24:05,000
perspectives and that you're
just listening to and sort of

1292
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:14,200
trying to as the apex to, to
reach some sort of integration

1293
01:24:14,320 --> 01:24:18,560
of all those, of all those
different voices.

1294
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:25,320
I think it's also, you know,
really exciting possibility to

1295
01:24:25,360 --> 01:24:29,520
to start to really dive into the
the neuroscience of this and,

1296
01:24:29,520 --> 01:24:36,720
and try to identify these lower
level windows and through a

1297
01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:40,400
patterns of synchronization
across frequency coupling and

1298
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:46,440
using advances in different
types of brain measurements to

1299
01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:52,720
to extract this.
And then also going back to the

1300
01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:56,560
the three dimensions of of of
time model.

1301
01:24:57,160 --> 01:25:01,440
If we recognize that we are all
in this sort of kite of

1302
01:25:01,440 --> 01:25:05,760
consciousness that is moving
through information space, and

1303
01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:12,200
each one of us has our own
little sail essentially in this

1304
01:25:12,200 --> 01:25:15,280
kite, then we can come to
realize that each one of us is

1305
01:25:15,280 --> 01:25:19,000
actually part of this larger
whole and our actions are

1306
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:23,160
impacting how reality is
manifesting.

1307
01:25:23,160 --> 01:25:29,120
And if we can adjust our sails
in synchrony, we can get, you

1308
01:25:29,120 --> 01:25:32,160
know, sort of a movement of
people alternating their sail in

1309
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:36,760
a particular way that can could
really, you know, help humanity

1310
01:25:36,760 --> 01:25:39,600
in powerful ways.
It could also hurt humanity in

1311
01:25:39,600 --> 01:25:43,840
powerful ways if we, you know,
turn collectively in, in, in, in

1312
01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:47,840
dangerous directions.
So the model sort of lends

1313
01:25:47,840 --> 01:25:53,560
itself to thinking about our the
community and the relationship

1314
01:25:53,560 --> 01:25:57,960
that we have with it and our own
individual contribution to

1315
01:25:57,960 --> 01:26:01,280
helping the kind of
consciousness move in a

1316
01:26:01,280 --> 01:26:05,000
productive direction.
Yeah, I think the overall

1317
01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:07,120
message is also beautiful.
If you look at the over the

1318
01:26:07,160 --> 01:26:11,960
always on type of world that
we're in, it's almost like a

1319
01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:14,160
push for a constant present
moment.

1320
01:26:14,160 --> 01:26:16,640
Focus is something that we need
right now.

1321
01:26:17,480 --> 01:26:18,840
Yeah.
And.

1322
01:26:19,440 --> 01:26:21,680
We're always.
In the the now model as well,

1323
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:24,520
just because of that alone.
So perhaps you can come here

1324
01:26:24,520 --> 01:26:29,120
with something like that.
But when you think about

1325
01:26:30,080 --> 01:26:32,400
psychiatry as a whole and you
and you look at things like

1326
01:26:32,400 --> 01:26:35,520
mindfulness and trying to be in
that present moment, do you

1327
01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:39,680
think this model in in the
future, as someone who studies

1328
01:26:39,680 --> 01:26:43,320
psychology who knows this field
so well will impact us in a

1329
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:46,120
positive way?
Well, I hope so.

1330
01:26:46,240 --> 01:26:52,760
And there's another thing that
I'm doing here, which indirectly

1331
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:55,400
contributes to something that I
think is really important for

1332
01:26:55,400 --> 01:27:01,160
society to cultivate.
And that is I'm, I'm, I'm

1333
01:27:01,160 --> 01:27:03,800
letting my hair down or we're
letting our hair down.

1334
01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:06,720
We're, we're making conjectures
that are far out.

1335
01:27:06,720 --> 01:27:10,520
We're exploring in areas of
physics that, you know, people

1336
01:27:10,520 --> 01:27:12,840
might say we have no business
being there.

1337
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:15,960
And even neuroscience, going
beyond certainly my

1338
01:27:16,440 --> 01:27:20,640
understanding of, of
neuroscience and this approach

1339
01:27:20,720 --> 01:27:31,520
of sort of boldly, yet humbly
exploring alternatives is a, is

1340
01:27:31,520 --> 01:27:35,200
a trait that I think is of
incredible importance for

1341
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:38,720
humanity known as openness to
experience.

1342
01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:42,440
Now, openness to experience is
part of what's considered the

1343
01:27:42,440 --> 01:27:47,760
big 5 personality traits.
So there's, you can remember

1344
01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:51,040
this with the acronym OCEAN,
which stands for openness,

1345
01:27:51,400 --> 01:27:56,520
conscientiousness, extroversion,
agreeableness and neuroticism or

1346
01:27:56,520 --> 01:27:58,600
negative valence.
And these are the sort of five

1347
01:27:58,600 --> 01:28:01,400
ways in which people tend to
vary.

1348
01:28:01,400 --> 01:28:06,920
And openness is incredibly
valuable in all sorts of ways.

1349
01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:09,320
So let me just list off all the
things that openness and

1350
01:28:09,320 --> 01:28:12,560
openness to experience is
basically it's, it's almost

1351
01:28:12,560 --> 01:28:16,800
identical with curiosity.
It's this it's this interest in

1352
01:28:16,800 --> 01:28:20,040
in gaining new experiences and
understanding new things and

1353
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:22,440
appreciating art and
appreciating nature.

1354
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:26,720
It's associated with
intelligence, creativity,

1355
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:30,640
intellectual humility,
conceptual expansiveness,

1356
01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:33,960
curiosity, as I mentioned,
appreciation of art,

1357
01:28:34,240 --> 01:28:39,840
appreciation of nature, concern
for the future of humanity,

1358
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:43,920
concern for the future of, of,
of nature.

1359
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:46,520
It's also associated for those
people who don't care about any

1360
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:47,680
of those things, if there are
any.

1361
01:28:47,760 --> 01:28:51,000
It's also associated with
connection with other people

1362
01:28:51,000 --> 01:28:54,160
because if you're open in your,
you're curious, then you're able

1363
01:28:54,160 --> 01:28:55,920
to listen to what other people
have to say.

1364
01:28:55,920 --> 01:28:57,880
And you're also interesting
because you've heard what people

1365
01:28:57,880 --> 01:29:00,400
have to say.
And it's associated, even if

1366
01:29:00,400 --> 01:29:05,640
none of that lands with you,
with longevity and quality of

1367
01:29:05,640 --> 01:29:10,040
life as people get older because
their minds remain fresh and

1368
01:29:10,360 --> 01:29:12,440
active.
Oh, it's also associated with

1369
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:16,120
increased tolerance for
alternative perspectives and a

1370
01:29:16,120 --> 01:29:21,680
reduced prejudice and racism.
So the world really needs more

1371
01:29:21,680 --> 01:29:26,640
openness to experience.
And my view is that playing with

1372
01:29:26,640 --> 01:29:34,320
ideas such as this model is a
way to sort of foster openness

1373
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:40,120
to experience and imagining the
imagining different ways of

1374
01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:42,040
doing the model.
Like don't even get stuck in

1375
01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:45,480
this one run with try a
different version on I, I, you

1376
01:29:45,480 --> 01:29:48,400
know, I advocate that.
And we have with the Madeline

1377
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:51,520
Gross, my long time
collaborator, we've been

1378
01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:55,480
developing techniques for
cultivating openness to

1379
01:29:55,680 --> 01:29:58,000
experience.
And it turns out that openness

1380
01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:02,080
to experience is, is, is very
much like mindfulness.

1381
01:30:02,240 --> 01:30:07,600
It's not just a trait, it's a
state of experiencing openness.

1382
01:30:07,840 --> 01:30:12,080
And the more often you
experience that state, the more

1383
01:30:12,080 --> 01:30:16,880
open you become as a trade.
So our view is that openness

1384
01:30:17,000 --> 01:30:19,320
could become the next
mindfulness where people are

1385
01:30:19,320 --> 01:30:23,840
cultivating openness and that
will then lead to all the OR

1386
01:30:23,840 --> 01:30:27,320
many of those potentially a
positive benefits that I see as

1387
01:30:27,320 --> 01:30:32,040
being associated with it.
So I think that there is a a

1388
01:30:32,040 --> 01:30:36,280
real possible connection between
this model or entertaining this

1389
01:30:36,280 --> 01:30:40,120
model and cultivating this
quality of openness that I think

1390
01:30:40,120 --> 01:30:43,640
is so important both for
individuals and for humanity

1391
01:30:43,640 --> 01:30:46,320
more generally.
And Jonathan, do you think

1392
01:30:46,320 --> 01:30:49,120
there's a way to explain
openness using the model?

1393
01:30:51,120 --> 01:30:56,280
Yeah.
So one way to think about it is

1394
01:30:56,280 --> 01:31:01,800
the flexibility of the of, of
the apex, the ability to sort of

1395
01:31:01,800 --> 01:31:05,720
turn to different aspects of, of
experience.

1396
01:31:06,560 --> 01:31:11,040
One thing that's interesting is
that people who are open

1397
01:31:11,400 --> 01:31:15,280
actually they think about more
different things.

1398
01:31:15,280 --> 01:31:17,680
So they also think about more
negative things, right?

1399
01:31:17,680 --> 01:31:21,040
Because they're, they're able
to, they're able to confront

1400
01:31:21,040 --> 01:31:27,000
those things.
So being able to shift having

1401
01:31:27,000 --> 01:31:31,760
the flexibility to focus in on
on different elements, maybe

1402
01:31:31,840 --> 01:31:39,120
sort of a a key aspect to having
sort of a well lubricated apex,

1403
01:31:39,280 --> 01:31:42,520
maybe sort of a key aspect to to
openness.

1404
01:31:42,680 --> 01:31:49,440
It's also possible that that you
can step back to sort of a meta

1405
01:31:49,760 --> 01:31:54,160
level that that that there may
be that the apex can either step

1406
01:31:54,160 --> 01:31:59,760
back or can focus on itself as a
lower level window.

1407
01:31:59,760 --> 01:32:01,800
There may be one of the ways
that we think about meta

1408
01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:06,040
awareness is that you have a
representation of your

1409
01:32:06,040 --> 01:32:07,640
experience as one of the
windows.

1410
01:32:07,800 --> 01:32:11,680
And then when you turn the apex
to that to that lower level

1411
01:32:11,680 --> 01:32:14,000
thing, you get get this sort of
mirror.

1412
01:32:14,000 --> 01:32:18,840
So focusing on on the Med
awareness may be another way to

1413
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:22,800
that Med awareness window may be
another way to cultivate

1414
01:32:23,440 --> 01:32:25,320
openness.
And then I think they're

1415
01:32:25,320 --> 01:32:33,520
probably a host of this is a
small bird that has been hiding

1416
01:32:33,680 --> 01:32:35,400
up until now, but is now joining
me.

1417
01:32:35,400 --> 01:32:39,760
He'll probably come in and out.
So yeah, those are some of the

1418
01:32:39,760 --> 01:32:42,840
ways in which openness could get
integrated.

1419
01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:48,920
And I should also mention that I
suggested that openness may be a

1420
01:32:49,320 --> 01:32:53,600
sort of the next mindfulness.
But I also think it may be very

1421
01:32:53,600 --> 01:32:57,800
valuable to combine openness
with mindfulness.

1422
01:32:57,800 --> 01:33:01,120
And, and along with my partner
Amanda Gregor, we've talked

1423
01:33:01,120 --> 01:33:06,600
about open mindfulness as a
where you sort of get the best

1424
01:33:06,600 --> 01:33:09,000
of both worlds.
So you want to be open, but not

1425
01:33:09,000 --> 01:33:11,800
so open that your brain falls
out, right?

1426
01:33:11,960 --> 01:33:15,080
You need to have some
discernment and, you know, be

1427
01:33:15,080 --> 01:33:19,120
open, but maybe not open to
skydiving without a parachute or

1428
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:21,440
riding a motorcycle without a
helmet.

1429
01:33:21,880 --> 01:33:27,200
And so the mindfulness may
provide a, a grounding and a

1430
01:33:27,640 --> 01:33:31,440
discernment where the openness
provides sort of this the

1431
01:33:31,480 --> 01:33:34,360
adventurous part.
And so combining the two may be

1432
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:37,680
very helpful.
And indeed, in we've developing

1433
01:33:37,680 --> 01:33:41,520
an app with Madeleine Gross and
she found that when we combine

1434
01:33:41,520 --> 01:33:46,600
mindfulness with curiosity, that
seems to produce some of the the

1435
01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:52,160
greatest advantages.
So I think that gaining this

1436
01:33:52,160 --> 01:33:56,120
sort of growth mindset that
we're not stuck in a that, that

1437
01:33:56,400 --> 01:34:01,360
we don't have to be stuck in a
particular personality forever,

1438
01:34:01,440 --> 01:34:03,840
but can develop.
And this is well appreciated

1439
01:34:03,840 --> 01:34:06,440
with mindfulness, but other
qualities as well such as

1440
01:34:06,440 --> 01:34:10,200
openness and combining the 2 is
a a really important direction

1441
01:34:10,200 --> 01:34:13,560
for humanity to pursue.
Yeah, I think my Twitter bio

1442
01:34:13,560 --> 01:34:16,800
back in the day used to be
passionately curious, reasonably

1443
01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:22,280
skeptical.
So I think it's a that's spot.

1444
01:34:22,360 --> 01:34:23,960
On Yeah.
That's pretty much where we are.

1445
01:34:24,240 --> 01:34:27,080
I'm headed with that.
But when you look at your work,

1446
01:34:27,280 --> 01:34:29,800
Jonathan, over the years, you've
done so much.

1447
01:34:29,800 --> 01:34:32,400
And for me, it is also
intriguing to see this shift

1448
01:34:32,400 --> 01:34:34,480
because it seems to be a latest
shift in your life, the way you

1449
01:34:34,480 --> 01:34:36,640
guys are exploring this and
doing this in a very, very

1450
01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:40,600
different, unique way.
After decades of exploring mind

1451
01:34:40,600 --> 01:34:42,960
wandering, mindfulness,
creativity, awareness.

1452
01:34:42,960 --> 01:34:44,720
We didn't even touch on
creativity as much yet.

1453
01:34:44,920 --> 01:34:47,400
I had so many questions.
We just, I just went off track.

1454
01:34:48,240 --> 01:34:49,440
Well, bring me back.
Yeah.

1455
01:34:49,560 --> 01:34:51,720
So off.
But off the decades of exploring

1456
01:34:51,720 --> 01:34:56,160
all of this, what aspect of the
mind's nature do you feel most

1457
01:34:56,160 --> 01:35:07,550
uncertain about?
I think that the thing that sort

1458
01:35:07,550 --> 01:35:12,120
of most intrigues me and you
know, as one gets older, I think

1459
01:35:12,120 --> 01:35:21,320
this naturally happens is, is
the the question about the, the

1460
01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:25,280
relationship between
consciousness and physical

1461
01:35:25,280 --> 01:35:30,160
reality and and the brain, when
we die, does it just shut off?

1462
01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:32,200
Is that that just, is it just
over?

1463
01:35:32,200 --> 01:35:36,560
It's like like we weren't here
or in these near death

1464
01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:41,080
experiences and all the sort of
reports, is it possible that we

1465
01:35:41,080 --> 01:35:44,880
just shift exclusively into the
subjective dimension of time

1466
01:35:45,440 --> 01:35:51,000
and, and it and it continues.
And I, I do genuinely feel that

1467
01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:56,240
there's a real possibility that
consciousness may have the

1468
01:35:56,240 --> 01:35:59,040
capacity to persist beyond
death.

1469
01:35:59,280 --> 01:36:02,920
I think it's possible that
consciousness may have certain

1470
01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:12,520
anomalous capabilities that are
that have so far eluded A

1471
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:16,760
rigorous documentation.
And interestingly, the three

1472
01:36:16,760 --> 01:36:19,960
dimensions of time model also
provides a way of thinking about

1473
01:36:19,960 --> 01:36:24,040
how it could be that
consciousness is capable of

1474
01:36:24,040 --> 01:36:26,680
these remarkable.
You know all the, you know, all

1475
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:29,400
the examples of
parapsychological kinds of

1476
01:36:29,400 --> 01:36:33,680
things, and yet it can't seem to
be shown in a rigorous way at

1477
01:36:33,680 --> 01:36:38,200
the, at the level of sort of
scientific documentation.

1478
01:36:38,600 --> 01:36:42,600
And basically the idea here is
that every individual window has

1479
01:36:42,600 --> 01:36:46,240
its own degree of wiggle room.
But when you when you try to do

1480
01:36:46,240 --> 01:36:49,040
a scientific study, you're
basically locking all the

1481
01:36:49,040 --> 01:36:51,960
windows together into a single
window.

1482
01:36:52,120 --> 01:36:53,880
And that gives it less a wiggle
room.

1483
01:36:53,880 --> 01:36:57,320
And the more pre registration
you do and the more observers

1484
01:36:57,320 --> 01:37:00,280
that are part of the study, the
less wiggle room you have.

1485
01:37:00,280 --> 01:37:03,560
So it's like that you've got the
nimbleness of a tugboat as an

1486
01:37:03,560 --> 01:37:07,200
individual, but you've got an
ocean liner which just can't

1487
01:37:07,800 --> 01:37:11,680
shift with that kind of
nimbleness to to show those

1488
01:37:12,280 --> 01:37:15,440
things.
So I think it's possible that

1489
01:37:15,600 --> 01:37:22,160
there may be each one of us may
experience anomalous things that

1490
01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:27,000
that are difficult to reconcile
with a fully material

1491
01:37:27,000 --> 01:37:31,960
reductionist world view.
And yet at the same time, none

1492
01:37:31,960 --> 01:37:36,120
of that translates, will ever
translate into the larger

1493
01:37:36,120 --> 01:37:38,920
documented thing, which makes
nobody happy, right.

1494
01:37:38,920 --> 01:37:43,160
The parapsychologists go, no,
we've shown this long ago and

1495
01:37:43,160 --> 01:37:47,680
the mainstream goes, wait a
minute, you're staying this

1496
01:37:47,680 --> 01:37:50,680
exists, but you can't show it.
And I would counter

1497
01:37:50,960 --> 01:37:53,240
consciousness exists, but I
can't show that either.

1498
01:37:53,240 --> 01:37:59,040
So it's not that unreasonable.
Yeah, I think it's, it's one of

1499
01:37:59,040 --> 01:38:00,520
these deepest questions in
reality.

1500
01:38:00,520 --> 01:38:03,160
And, and it's so fun to explore
this topic.

1501
01:38:03,160 --> 01:38:05,680
And I think that's where you're
at in your life.

1502
01:38:05,680 --> 01:38:07,840
You can see that there's a level
of excitement that comes with

1503
01:38:07,840 --> 01:38:10,960
this where you where you can
tell you're exploring a field

1504
01:38:10,960 --> 01:38:14,720
that's really beyond your, your,
your usual work, but it's still

1505
01:38:14,720 --> 01:38:17,960
fundamentally part of your work.
And, and it's probably the most

1506
01:38:17,960 --> 01:38:20,920
intriguing question of them all.
So who could blame you?

1507
01:38:22,880 --> 01:38:25,120
Yeah.
But it is frustrating because

1508
01:38:25,120 --> 01:38:28,040
you know, the more out there you
get and especially in this sort

1509
01:38:28,040 --> 01:38:32,800
of model, the harder it is to
bring the rigor that I apply my

1510
01:38:32,800 --> 01:38:35,080
other research.
But I want to emphasize, you

1511
01:38:35,080 --> 01:38:37,520
know, all this sort of
speculation, it's really

1512
01:38:37,520 --> 01:38:41,120
critical to carry on the
rigorous hardness.

1513
01:38:41,120 --> 01:38:42,960
So we're still doing mind
wandering research.

1514
01:38:42,960 --> 01:38:47,960
We're still doing all sorts of
very rigorous tightly controlled

1515
01:38:48,440 --> 01:38:50,920
studies.
And I think that, well, a lot of

1516
01:38:50,920 --> 01:38:53,760
times what happens to
researchers is when they sort of

1517
01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:57,280
go off on these metaphysics
things, they, they abandoned

1518
01:38:57,440 --> 01:39:02,000
their, their mainstream, the,
the, the sort of the, the meat

1519
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:04,240
and potatoes, and then they get
dismissed.

1520
01:39:04,240 --> 01:39:07,040
It's like, oh, that's too bad.
You know, they, they, they fell

1521
01:39:07,040 --> 01:39:10,400
off the, the wagon.
But the goal is by sort of

1522
01:39:10,400 --> 01:39:16,720
maintaining these, these
multiple streams that people can

1523
01:39:16,800 --> 01:39:20,960
write off some of my
speculations, but they hopefully

1524
01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:23,760
won't write me off, yeah.
You know, exactly, I think that

1525
01:39:23,760 --> 01:39:26,600
is is definitely a theme.
And in order to prevent that

1526
01:39:26,600 --> 01:39:28,880
from happening, let's move back
onto the mind wandering aspect.

1527
01:39:28,880 --> 01:39:33,080
Your studies, your your
scientific studies frame mind

1528
01:39:33,080 --> 01:39:37,240
wandering not as mere
distraction, but as a core

1529
01:39:37,240 --> 01:39:40,960
cognitive mode.
So what does this tell us about

1530
01:39:41,800 --> 01:39:44,880
the temporal organization of
consciousness and how it evolves

1531
01:39:44,880 --> 01:39:47,560
over moments, hours, or
lifetimes?

1532
01:39:49,960 --> 01:39:53,000
Maybe clarify that when you say
the temporal organization, what

1533
01:39:53,000 --> 01:39:55,240
do you mean?
When you talk about mind

1534
01:39:55,240 --> 01:39:58,920
wandering as not as not as
merely as a distraction, but as

1535
01:39:58,920 --> 01:40:02,640
a core cognitive mode, what I'm
trying to ask is what does that

1536
01:40:02,640 --> 01:40:06,760
tell us about the organization
of consciousness from a time

1537
01:40:06,760 --> 01:40:09,360
perspective?
And how it evolves over moments,

1538
01:40:09,400 --> 01:40:11,960
hours of lifetimes.
Does that make a little bit more

1539
01:40:11,960 --> 01:40:12,680
sense?
I.

1540
01:40:12,800 --> 01:40:14,880
I, I think so.
Well, I mean, one of the

1541
01:40:14,880 --> 01:40:20,880
interesting things is the
substantial proportion of time

1542
01:40:21,120 --> 01:40:25,680
that we spend mind wandering.
You know, estimates suggest that

1543
01:40:25,680 --> 01:40:30,480
it's from, there's an estimate
of 50%, which I think is, is

1544
01:40:30,480 --> 01:40:33,280
extreme.
But in our studies, we find, you

1545
01:40:33,280 --> 01:40:38,120
know, 20% of the time people are
not really in the present.

1546
01:40:38,120 --> 01:40:40,280
They're thinking about other,
other stuff.

1547
01:40:40,680 --> 01:40:45,320
And what this illustrates is and
a lot of times they're thinking

1548
01:40:45,320 --> 01:40:47,720
about current concerns.
This is sort of one of the

1549
01:40:49,360 --> 01:40:53,280
clinger sort of identified this
back when there was just a

1550
01:40:53,280 --> 01:40:56,000
handful of people studying mind
wandering.

1551
01:40:56,040 --> 01:41:01,640
And So what this suggests then
is that a significant amount of

1552
01:41:02,320 --> 01:41:09,360
mental activity is based not in
the present, but in addressing

1553
01:41:10,240 --> 01:41:14,880
the past, imagining the future,
dealing with all the different

1554
01:41:14,880 --> 01:41:20,520
things that we are encountering.
And then it's interesting to

1555
01:41:20,520 --> 01:41:23,200
think about sort of from an
evolutionary perspective.

1556
01:41:24,800 --> 01:41:30,720
Did we invent mind wandering or
is are other animals engaging in

1557
01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:34,440
it as as well?
And, and I think that that there

1558
01:41:34,440 --> 01:41:41,640
are some really close parallels
to mind wandering when in in

1559
01:41:41,640 --> 01:41:45,320
other animals as well.
So, you know, a prey animal when

1560
01:41:45,320 --> 01:41:49,120
they're say at, at the lake
drinking, they're, they're

1561
01:41:49,120 --> 01:41:51,640
drinking, but then they look up
and are, you know, paying

1562
01:41:51,640 --> 01:41:53,680
attention to the, to the other
thing.

1563
01:41:53,680 --> 01:41:57,760
So this part of their attention
is being dedicated to the task

1564
01:41:57,760 --> 01:42:00,920
at hand, drinking, but then
they're also paying attention to

1565
01:42:01,760 --> 01:42:05,320
worrying about predators.
And so you can imagine that

1566
01:42:06,320 --> 01:42:09,960
also, you know, when elephants
are, you know, running into

1567
01:42:11,280 --> 01:42:14,600
difficulties, not finding enough
food and stuff.

1568
01:42:14,880 --> 01:42:17,440
The the the.
The.

1569
01:42:17,520 --> 01:42:21,480
Lead elephant, female elephant
has to come up with a plan for a

1570
01:42:21,480 --> 01:42:24,800
where to go next and you you
could well imagine that that

1571
01:42:24,800 --> 01:42:28,600
elephant is engaging in mind
wandering as she's struggling to

1572
01:42:29,440 --> 01:42:33,280
find that food that she's
looking for and coming up with A

1573
01:42:33,800 --> 01:42:36,640
and then visualization because
they can go, you know, really

1574
01:42:37,000 --> 01:42:41,560
far direction.
So my guess is that mind

1575
01:42:41,560 --> 01:42:48,280
wandering is a that we engage in
it in a much more extensive way

1576
01:42:48,680 --> 01:42:52,760
than other other species, but
that the sort of the prototypes

1577
01:42:52,960 --> 01:42:56,320
of it exist way down the
phylogenetic scale.

1578
01:42:57,160 --> 01:42:59,760
Yeah, I find it quite
interesting how as a doctor,

1579
01:42:59,760 --> 01:43:02,000
when I interact with patients
and if you notice someone mind

1580
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:04,960
wondering, especially when I
used to work in psychiatry, how

1581
01:43:05,400 --> 01:43:09,400
people confabulate so much when
you question them about it.

1582
01:43:09,680 --> 01:43:12,560
Yeah.
Well, confabulation is, is, is,

1583
01:43:12,560 --> 01:43:16,160
is really, really interesting
and it, and it sort of hits on

1584
01:43:16,160 --> 01:43:21,560
the fact that that all of us are
constructing our realities and,

1585
01:43:21,680 --> 01:43:26,280
and creating a narrative and,
and even creating the our

1586
01:43:26,280 --> 01:43:27,880
vision.
You're just a dark, you're just

1587
01:43:27,880 --> 01:43:32,440
in a dark skull and you're
experiencing all of this.

1588
01:43:32,440 --> 01:43:35,840
So it's all of experience is a
construction.

1589
01:43:36,560 --> 01:43:42,560
So Jonathan, when it comes to
creativity, so does creativity

1590
01:43:42,560 --> 01:43:45,720
highlight the shortcomings of
conscious deliberation or the

1591
01:43:45,720 --> 01:43:49,640
unique powers of the of
unconscious processes?

1592
01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:52,560
And perhaps do you have any
examples of how you could align

1593
01:43:52,560 --> 01:43:55,080
now to this?
Yeah.

1594
01:43:55,080 --> 01:44:02,080
So we have found in some
situations that when you're

1595
01:44:02,720 --> 01:44:07,840
trying too hard to come up with
something that that can actually

1596
01:44:08,080 --> 01:44:11,120
be problematic.
And we've all experienced this

1597
01:44:11,120 --> 01:44:12,840
in the case of like the tip of
the tongue, right?

1598
01:44:13,040 --> 01:44:17,480
You've, you've experienced some
word that just doesn't come to

1599
01:44:17,480 --> 01:44:18,920
mind.
As long as you're actively

1600
01:44:18,920 --> 01:44:20,960
trying to find it, you can't get
it.

1601
01:44:21,000 --> 01:44:24,080
And so the best thing to do is
just to let it rest and then it

1602
01:44:24,120 --> 01:44:27,120
and then it comes to you.
And oftentimes with creativity

1603
01:44:27,120 --> 01:44:31,440
too, we'll just run up against a
brick wall and just have reach

1604
01:44:31,440 --> 01:44:35,000
an impasse.
And in those situations, the

1605
01:44:35,000 --> 01:44:39,240
best thing to do is just to
sleep on it as as we say, and

1606
01:44:39,360 --> 01:44:44,840
allow that unconscious processes
to to incubate, allow the mind

1607
01:44:44,840 --> 01:44:49,120
wandering to sort of naturally
progress in its different

1608
01:44:49,120 --> 01:44:53,720
directions potentially, you
know, progressing value in our

1609
01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:57,200
experience of it.
So I again, remember when I was

1610
01:44:57,200 --> 01:45:01,080
mentioning before about the sort
of the the value of an apex

1611
01:45:01,080 --> 01:45:02,800
that's able to sort of move back
and forth.

1612
01:45:03,160 --> 01:45:08,080
I think it's important for
creativity to be have periods of

1613
01:45:08,160 --> 01:45:11,080
really intense focus where
you're defining the problem in a

1614
01:45:11,320 --> 01:45:14,560
very meaningful way and and
really thinking through all of

1615
01:45:14,560 --> 01:45:18,120
the the key elements of it.
And then to take a period where

1616
01:45:18,120 --> 01:45:23,360
you're just allowing stuff to
come up and sort of downplaying

1617
01:45:23,360 --> 01:45:26,360
frontal cortex and allowing
default mode network to do its

1618
01:45:26,520 --> 01:45:30,200
thing.
And then when you have an AHA

1619
01:45:30,200 --> 01:45:34,400
experience, then you need to go
back and really scrutinize it

1620
01:45:34,400 --> 01:45:37,400
carefully with that rigorous
explicit thing.

1621
01:45:37,400 --> 01:45:41,080
So it's really a, a dance
between a conscious and

1622
01:45:41,080 --> 01:45:46,160
unconscious processes, between
mind wandering and rigorous

1623
01:45:46,680 --> 01:45:48,960
scrutiny.
Do you?

1624
01:45:48,960 --> 01:45:52,320
Think it's possible that
creativity emerges despite

1625
01:45:52,320 --> 01:45:54,440
consciousness rather than
because of it?

1626
01:45:57,800 --> 01:46:01,800
I think that I mean, if you, Roy
Bell Meister and and Kathleen

1627
01:46:01,800 --> 01:46:06,080
Voss sort of looked at issues
about how creative people were

1628
01:46:06,080 --> 01:46:09,320
when they were, you know, really
sort of focused versus not.

1629
01:46:09,320 --> 01:46:12,440
And, and they found the
consciousness seemed to be a

1630
01:46:12,440 --> 01:46:16,800
very important.
So I would say that it's it that

1631
01:46:16,840 --> 01:46:22,240
you're, you really need
consciousness for to, to, to

1632
01:46:22,240 --> 01:46:27,000
maximize creativity and that the
whole system is sort of built to

1633
01:46:27,040 --> 01:46:29,640
alert consciousness to when
creative ideas happen.

1634
01:46:29,640 --> 01:46:33,000
So you're mind wandering and
then if you have a good idea

1635
01:46:33,000 --> 01:46:36,040
what happens, you have that aha
experience, which is like, hey,

1636
01:46:36,040 --> 01:46:39,760
consciousness, pay attention.
This is, this is important.

1637
01:46:40,000 --> 01:46:42,360
Let's, let's let's test this
out.

1638
01:46:42,360 --> 01:46:46,680
But then you need, I definitely
think that the process of, of

1639
01:46:46,680 --> 01:46:49,600
evaluating a creative idea,
which is a key component of

1640
01:46:49,600 --> 01:46:55,720
creativity, critically depends
on that rigorous frontal lobe

1641
01:46:56,280 --> 01:46:59,960
scrutiny where you figure out,
oh, I, you know, this won't work

1642
01:46:59,960 --> 01:47:02,880
for that reason.
And This is why it with

1643
01:47:02,880 --> 01:47:07,120
psychedelics and, and cannabis
and stuff, people may have a

1644
01:47:07,120 --> 01:47:13,120
good ideas, but their capacity
for evaluating them carefully

1645
01:47:13,400 --> 01:47:16,320
may be disrupted.
So they feel like they've had

1646
01:47:16,320 --> 01:47:18,920
this brilliant idea, But part of
that is because they've

1647
01:47:18,920 --> 01:47:23,920
undermined the the, the
evaluation, a component of the

1648
01:47:23,920 --> 01:47:26,160
creative process.
So it's it's really a dance.

1649
01:47:26,520 --> 01:47:29,840
Yeah, well, that explains most
of my best friend and my our

1650
01:47:29,840 --> 01:47:32,240
ideas not coming to fruition in
adulthood.

1651
01:47:32,720 --> 01:47:36,240
We knew those plans never came.
We thought we had breakthroughs

1652
01:47:36,240 --> 01:47:39,960
many times.
One of the things that we have

1653
01:47:41,000 --> 01:47:45,640
been realizing is that there may
be a value to those false Ahas

1654
01:47:45,640 --> 01:47:50,440
that we don't appreciate, which
is that even though they're not

1655
01:47:50,440 --> 01:47:54,560
right, they're very reinforcing.
A falsaha feels virtually as

1656
01:47:54,560 --> 01:47:58,840
good as a as a real aha.
And so it encourages us to stay

1657
01:47:58,840 --> 01:48:01,320
in that space, to stay in the
creative space.

1658
01:48:01,520 --> 01:48:06,520
So there's it encourages what I
call mind wandering, you know,

1659
01:48:06,520 --> 01:48:12,600
playful, curious exploration.
So even the falsahas have their

1660
01:48:12,600 --> 01:48:15,560
value.
Well, we, we've touched on the

1661
01:48:15,560 --> 01:48:17,800
creativity part.
I mean, just just to highlight

1662
01:48:17,800 --> 01:48:20,160
the fact that your body of work
so diverse, we haven't even

1663
01:48:20,160 --> 01:48:23,720
touched on your artwork yet.
There's so much to discuss.

1664
01:48:23,720 --> 01:48:28,000
Your art research specifically
shows it can reshape perception

1665
01:48:28,160 --> 01:48:33,240
and cognition in profound ways.
What unique mental mechanisms

1666
01:48:33,240 --> 01:48:36,760
does art activate that everyday
experiences don't?

1667
01:48:38,080 --> 01:48:42,560
So the idea is, and we did touch
on this, is this notion of

1668
01:48:42,560 --> 01:48:45,520
openness.
So a key aspect of openness to

1669
01:48:45,520 --> 01:48:50,640
experience is the appreciation
of art.

1670
01:48:51,080 --> 01:48:54,000
And so in the same way that
people who are high in openness

1671
01:48:54,000 --> 01:48:56,520
to experience appreciate art,
the idea is that appreciating

1672
01:48:56,520 --> 01:49:00,920
art can induce a temporary state
of openness to experience.

1673
01:49:01,120 --> 01:49:05,160
And what we find is that when we
expose people to brief, this is

1674
01:49:05,160 --> 01:49:07,680
work pioneered by Madeline
Gross.

1675
01:49:07,920 --> 01:49:13,360
When we expose people to brief
animated film shorts that are

1676
01:49:13,480 --> 01:49:19,920
both beautiful but also sort of
unconventional, that this can

1677
01:49:19,920 --> 01:49:23,240
lead to various different
metrics that could be

1678
01:49:23,240 --> 01:49:26,040
characterized as increases in
state openness, including

1679
01:49:26,240 --> 01:49:30,000
they're more creative in a
writing a short story, they're

1680
01:49:30,000 --> 01:49:34,800
more curious in the the
information that they seek out.

1681
01:49:35,000 --> 01:49:37,360
They're more a conceptually
expansive.

1682
01:49:37,360 --> 01:49:42,520
So if you ask people in normal
situations, is a car a vehicle?

1683
01:49:42,520 --> 01:49:44,760
Everyone agrees yes.
But if you ask them, is a foot a

1684
01:49:44,760 --> 01:49:49,600
vehicle a lot of disagreement,
or is a camel a vehicle a lot of

1685
01:49:49,600 --> 01:49:53,840
disagreement?
And they're more likely to think

1686
01:49:53,840 --> 01:49:57,400
of larger things as part of a
broader category.

1687
01:49:57,760 --> 01:50:05,440
So the idea is that art creates
this expansiveness that allows

1688
01:50:05,440 --> 01:50:10,520
them to notice things that they
wouldn't have noticed otherwise.

1689
01:50:10,520 --> 01:50:16,360
And we refer to this as
expansive salience, this idea

1690
01:50:16,360 --> 01:50:20,840
that things that would otherwise
have gone unnoticed become

1691
01:50:21,520 --> 01:50:24,920
visible and valuable.
And that and that that's

1692
01:50:24,920 --> 01:50:29,240
reinforcing to notice these
things that that otherwise might

1693
01:50:29,240 --> 01:50:33,240
get missed.
I'm not sure if we brought this

1694
01:50:33,240 --> 01:50:37,240
up, Jonathan, but within this
model, within the NOW model, how

1695
01:50:37,240 --> 01:50:42,480
do animals or AI fall into this?
What role do they play and how

1696
01:50:42,480 --> 01:50:44,240
do we incorporate them into
this?

1697
01:50:45,320 --> 01:50:50,080
So one way to think about with
animals is that we have layers

1698
01:50:50,080 --> 01:50:55,080
upon layers upon layers, and
that as we become more

1699
01:50:55,080 --> 01:51:02,400
cognitively complex, we develop
higher and higher layers that

1700
01:51:02,400 --> 01:51:04,760
are able to integrate more
information.

1701
01:51:04,760 --> 01:51:09,120
So we, you know, likely have
just more layers than does a

1702
01:51:09,800 --> 01:51:13,080
than does does a mouse.
So that's sort of one way to

1703
01:51:13,120 --> 01:51:16,480
think about it.
And then also in terms of the,

1704
01:51:18,120 --> 01:51:21,640
the, the lower level windows,
they have a faster vibrational

1705
01:51:21,640 --> 01:51:24,680
rate.
Their, their, their flicker rate

1706
01:51:24,680 --> 01:51:28,200
is, is, is faster.
And that may be why it's so hard

1707
01:51:28,200 --> 01:51:32,120
to swat a family because they're
actually, their subjective

1708
01:51:32,120 --> 01:51:37,680
experience is actually unfolding
at a different rate than then

1709
01:51:37,920 --> 01:51:41,080
then ours is.
So let's see, you were asking me

1710
01:51:41,080 --> 01:51:45,120
about the animals, and there was
another part to that question as

1711
01:51:45,120 --> 01:51:46,600
well, wasn't there?
Yeah.

1712
01:51:46,760 --> 01:51:48,640
And artificial intelligence.
Oh.

1713
01:51:48,640 --> 01:51:53,840
Artificial intelligence, yeah.
So if the NOW model is right and

1714
01:51:53,840 --> 01:51:57,800
we have these sort of layers
upon layers upon layers, that's

1715
01:51:57,800 --> 01:52:02,480
really sort of not the way that
artificial intelligence is

1716
01:52:03,240 --> 01:52:09,880
operating currently.
And so one sort of metaphor is a

1717
01:52:10,760 --> 01:52:12,960
Russian doll.
You know, the Russian dolls from

1718
01:52:12,960 --> 01:52:17,840
the outside, when that's loaded
with all those lower layers is

1719
01:52:18,480 --> 01:52:22,480
looks identical to one that is
just got the outside.

1720
01:52:23,520 --> 01:52:26,960
But of course they're very
different from the inside.

1721
01:52:26,960 --> 01:52:31,040
And it may be that AI is
basically like a Russian doll

1722
01:52:31,040 --> 01:52:34,560
with none of those lower level
nested observer windows that are

1723
01:52:34,560 --> 01:52:36,640
building up that are creating
consciousness.

1724
01:52:36,640 --> 01:52:40,800
So they it may be very
intelligent, but it may have, it

1725
01:52:41,000 --> 01:52:44,120
likely has no consciousness at
all.

1726
01:52:44,120 --> 01:52:53,320
Now plausibly you could generate
an AI that emulated the kind of

1727
01:52:53,880 --> 01:52:58,920
nested resonances that that our
brains may have.

1728
01:52:58,920 --> 01:53:02,000
And this could possibly be done
implemented with the

1729
01:53:02,280 --> 01:53:05,640
electromagnetic fields at
various different levels.

1730
01:53:06,120 --> 01:53:10,680
So I think it's, it's possible
that that AI could in the future

1731
01:53:12,000 --> 01:53:15,080
be developed that that could
have this property.

1732
01:53:15,600 --> 01:53:19,440
But if the nested observer
window model is true right now,

1733
01:53:19,600 --> 01:53:21,760
it's it's very far from doing
that.

1734
01:53:21,760 --> 01:53:25,400
No, whole other question is,
would you want to have a

1735
01:53:25,400 --> 01:53:30,040
conscious AI?
And I would be very wary of that

1736
01:53:30,040 --> 01:53:33,280
because once AI is conscious,
then it needs to have rights

1737
01:53:33,560 --> 01:53:37,240
and, and it's its own concerns
and agenda.

1738
01:53:37,520 --> 01:53:41,000
And, and that's something that I
think it's going to be very

1739
01:53:41,000 --> 01:53:44,040
difficult to manage.
Yeah, I mean, we can barely

1740
01:53:44,040 --> 01:53:46,440
manage each other so, right.
Exactly.

1741
01:53:47,320 --> 01:53:53,000
OK, your work is so
interdisciplinary that it blurs

1742
01:53:53,400 --> 01:53:56,440
psychology, philosophy,
neuroscience, etcetera.

1743
01:53:56,880 --> 01:54:00,920
Where does psychology most need
philosophical tools when

1744
01:54:00,920 --> 01:54:03,240
tackling something like
consciousness or the mind body

1745
01:54:03,240 --> 01:54:05,960
problem in your opinion?
Yeah.

1746
01:54:06,360 --> 01:54:12,840
You know, in, in physics,
there's, you know, this

1747
01:54:13,000 --> 01:54:20,160
expression, something just shut
up and calculate and don't worry

1748
01:54:20,160 --> 01:54:23,680
about the, the ontological
implications.

1749
01:54:24,040 --> 01:54:28,440
And I, I think psychologists
have sort of done the same

1750
01:54:28,440 --> 01:54:31,040
thing.
They've, they've bought into an

1751
01:54:31,040 --> 01:54:32,800
especially, you know,
neuroscientist as well.

1752
01:54:33,000 --> 01:54:37,840
They've bought into a particular
world view about the nature of

1753
01:54:37,840 --> 01:54:41,600
the brain and the nature of
consciousness and the nature of

1754
01:54:41,600 --> 01:54:46,240
human beings is basically just
being complex machines.

1755
01:54:46,400 --> 01:54:50,000
No in principle, no different
from a, a, a complex machine.

1756
01:54:50,000 --> 01:54:54,320
And, and things notions of
spirit and soul and and

1757
01:54:55,840 --> 01:54:59,000
consciousness having more than
that is just assumed to be a

1758
01:54:59,040 --> 01:55:05,160
superstition of, of the past.
And I think that that philosophy

1759
01:55:06,640 --> 01:55:13,600
provides a, a backdrop for, to
investigate different possible

1760
01:55:13,600 --> 01:55:19,480
viable ontologies and to
recognize that to just shut up

1761
01:55:19,520 --> 01:55:23,280
and assume this one particular
perspective about the nature of

1762
01:55:23,280 --> 01:55:29,640
the brain is, is, is, is really
not scientific because you're

1763
01:55:29,640 --> 01:55:34,800
basically excluding all sorts of
possibilities a, a priority.

1764
01:55:34,800 --> 01:55:38,760
So that's, I think one important
place where philosophy is

1765
01:55:38,760 --> 01:55:40,480
valuable.
And then a second place is just

1766
01:55:40,600 --> 01:55:41,960
what are the interesting
questions?

1767
01:55:42,200 --> 01:55:47,960
What questions can we take the
scientific method that the

1768
01:55:48,080 --> 01:55:52,800
philosophy has addressed for,
for a long time and, and, and

1769
01:55:52,800 --> 01:55:56,320
make progress.
So, you know, what is the value

1770
01:55:56,320 --> 01:55:59,800
of believing in free will?
Not just does free will exist,

1771
01:55:59,800 --> 01:56:03,800
but but what are what are the
impact of, of having that belief

1772
01:56:04,080 --> 01:56:09,240
on our, on our behaviors?
So there are all sorts of, I

1773
01:56:09,240 --> 01:56:13,840
think, really interesting
philosophical questions that can

1774
01:56:14,080 --> 01:56:16,680
inform what a psychologist
study.

1775
01:56:17,760 --> 01:56:21,160
And on the flip side, we do
philosophical debates on

1776
01:56:21,160 --> 01:56:24,680
consciousness stray too far away
from the empirical data?

1777
01:56:24,680 --> 01:56:26,080
And how can we ground them
better?

1778
01:56:27,480 --> 01:56:33,480
Well, I think that philosophers
have increasingly begun to pay

1779
01:56:33,480 --> 01:56:37,960
attention to the scientific
findings.

1780
01:56:37,960 --> 01:56:45,160
And I think that you certainly
want to use the scientific

1781
01:56:45,160 --> 01:56:51,640
findings to constrain your
conceptualizations of, of things

1782
01:56:51,640 --> 01:56:56,560
and, and they provide really
sort of important and valuable

1783
01:56:58,520 --> 01:57:04,600
lines of, of, of inquiry.
And then also, for example, if

1784
01:57:04,600 --> 01:57:08,360
you look at sort of
phenomenological phenomenology,

1785
01:57:10,120 --> 01:57:14,000
I'm a big advocate of the value
of considering phenomenology,

1786
01:57:14,000 --> 01:57:18,400
but you also need to consider
the ways in which phenomenology

1787
01:57:18,400 --> 01:57:24,320
can come up short and to build
that into your philosophy as

1788
01:57:24,320 --> 01:57:26,440
well.
So just to sort of take all

1789
01:57:26,440 --> 01:57:31,560
phenomenological experiences at
face value, I think is is

1790
01:57:31,560 --> 01:57:35,480
something is a mistake that has
been made in the past and that

1791
01:57:36,480 --> 01:57:39,400
philosophers can definitely
integrate.

1792
01:57:39,400 --> 01:57:43,120
So I think there's scores of
really valuable ways in which

1793
01:57:43,480 --> 01:57:47,480
philosophers and psychologists
and neuroscientists and

1794
01:57:47,480 --> 01:57:54,760
physicists can cross pollinate.
And then finally, Jonathan, is

1795
01:57:54,760 --> 01:57:57,600
the hard problem of
consciousness a true scientific

1796
01:57:57,600 --> 01:58:01,320
puzzle, a linguistic mix up, or
something else entirely?

1797
01:58:04,760 --> 01:58:10,200
And I would add and how would
meta lab approach this?

1798
01:58:11,000 --> 01:58:13,640
Yeah, so.
I think that the first thing

1799
01:58:13,640 --> 01:58:18,200
about the hard problem of
consciousness is that it invites

1800
01:58:18,200 --> 01:58:24,920
us to think about alternative
perspectives about the nature of

1801
01:58:24,920 --> 01:58:29,160
consciousness and its
relationship to physical

1802
01:58:29,160 --> 01:58:32,880
reality.
And David Chalmers, when he, you

1803
01:58:32,880 --> 01:58:37,400
know, first introduced it and,
you know, sort of made the point

1804
01:58:37,400 --> 01:58:42,960
that that it's possible that you
can have a philosophical zombie

1805
01:58:42,960 --> 01:58:48,000
that was exactly like us, but
but not conscious.

1806
01:58:48,200 --> 01:58:50,800
And so that really sort of
raises the question of what is

1807
01:58:51,120 --> 01:58:54,440
consciousness?
I mean, that just becomes all

1808
01:58:54,440 --> 01:58:59,160
the more pressing as we think
about AI, which is we people

1809
01:58:59,160 --> 01:59:01,280
say, well, that's impossible,
you wouldn't have philosophical

1810
01:59:01,280 --> 01:59:02,760
zombies.
But I think that the, the

1811
01:59:02,760 --> 01:59:06,240
possibility of a philosophical
zombie that is a, an intelligent

1812
01:59:06,240 --> 01:59:09,880
being, that is, that acts
conscious but isn't, is really

1813
01:59:10,040 --> 01:59:14,640
becoming increasingly plausible.
So the hard problem of

1814
01:59:14,640 --> 01:59:18,200
consciousness invites us to
think about different ontologies

1815
01:59:18,200 --> 01:59:23,320
that might be ways of thinking
about the nature of physical

1816
01:59:23,480 --> 01:59:27,520
reality.
And our approach, or at least

1817
01:59:27,520 --> 01:59:32,240
one approach that we've taken in
the lab is to imagine this

1818
01:59:32,240 --> 01:59:37,520
additional dimension of, of
physical reality, the subjective

1819
01:59:37,960 --> 01:59:42,400
dimension as it being sort of a
key added element, which is what

1820
01:59:42,400 --> 01:59:45,960
David Chalmers was suggesting
was going to be required.

1821
01:59:46,200 --> 01:59:50,000
And with Tam Hunt, we've also
been thinking about sort of

1822
01:59:50,000 --> 01:59:55,280
electromagnetic fields as
potentially being a really a key

1823
01:59:55,280 --> 02:00:00,280
aspect to sort of where
consciousness is in physical

1824
02:00:00,560 --> 02:00:02,240
reality.
So I think the hard problem of

1825
02:00:02,240 --> 02:00:06,920
consciousness, which of course
had other terms for it before

1826
02:00:06,920 --> 02:00:09,680
Chalmers.
You know, it's it's really also

1827
02:00:09,680 --> 02:00:12,720
the mind body problem.
It's the explanatory gap.

1828
02:00:13,280 --> 02:00:16,320
The the idea has been with us
for for a long time.

1829
02:00:16,600 --> 02:00:19,440
I think it is a it's a real
issue.

1830
02:00:19,640 --> 02:00:27,600
It's a meaningful issue and it's
one that deserves our attention.

1831
02:00:27,600 --> 02:00:31,400
And Neil Seth would have us just
sweep it under the rug as being

1832
02:00:31,400 --> 02:00:35,040
just a sort of a distraction.
And I'm all for the kinds of

1833
02:00:35,040 --> 02:00:39,520
questions that Neil is, is
interested with respect to

1834
02:00:39,520 --> 02:00:43,880
predictive coding and so on.
But I think to then dismiss the,

1835
02:00:43,960 --> 02:00:47,600
the, the fundamental ontologies
or just take them for granted.

1836
02:00:47,600 --> 02:00:51,880
He, he just just has decided a
material reductionism with

1837
02:00:51,880 --> 02:00:56,480
biology.
I think that it's premature to

1838
02:00:56,520 --> 02:01:01,280
to take that particular stance,
although I I greatly respect his

1839
02:01:01,920 --> 02:01:05,200
perspectives.
Well, it Jonathan, your work's

1840
02:01:05,200 --> 02:01:07,280
incredible man.
So it's, it's been such a

1841
02:01:07,280 --> 02:01:09,760
pleasure and a highlight to you.
You're the first conversation

1842
02:01:09,760 --> 02:01:11,280
I've had for this year on mind
body solutions.

1843
02:01:11,280 --> 02:01:12,800
So thank you for joining me
today.

1844
02:01:13,920 --> 02:01:16,360
Well, thanks for inviting great
questions.

1845
02:01:16,920 --> 02:01:21,360
And I just hope that your
listeners just take everything I

1846
02:01:21,360 --> 02:01:26,200
say with a, with a grain of salt
and just take their curiosity

1847
02:01:26,200 --> 02:01:29,960
and explore ideas and, and, and
and push things forward.

1848
02:01:29,960 --> 02:01:35,120
But always, like you said, keep
that that skepticism and that

1849
02:01:35,120 --> 02:01:38,360
open mind, yeah.
Jonathan, before we close, is

1850
02:01:38,360 --> 02:01:42,880
there anything about now about
all your work, whether it's mind

1851
02:01:42,880 --> 02:01:45,040
wandering etcetera that you feel
you haven't touched on that

1852
02:01:45,040 --> 02:01:47,400
you'd like to close off on
anything in particular you feel

1853
02:01:47,400 --> 02:01:49,960
you haven't elaborated enough
on?

1854
02:01:50,240 --> 02:01:53,880
Feel free well.
What I would what I would say is

1855
02:01:53,880 --> 02:02:05,560
that right now I think that the
world is in a a really important

1856
02:02:06,280 --> 02:02:14,760
turning point where it needs to
find ways of tolerating

1857
02:02:15,240 --> 02:02:20,240
alternative perspectives.
And we see this both in the

1858
02:02:20,480 --> 02:02:25,200
polarization in the in the
political world and in the

1859
02:02:25,680 --> 02:02:32,280
intolerance in the scientific
community for ontologies other

1860
02:02:32,280 --> 02:02:36,920
than the prevailing scientists
and material reductionist

1861
02:02:37,080 --> 02:02:41,200
perspective.
And I feel that cultivating

1862
02:02:41,840 --> 02:02:48,680
openness is really just so, so
important at this time, both

1863
02:02:49,000 --> 02:02:53,880
from a political perspective,
from a tolerance perspective,

1864
02:02:54,080 --> 02:02:57,720
from a scientific perspective,
from a philosophical

1865
02:02:57,720 --> 02:03:00,280
perspective.
And if there was sort of one

1866
02:03:00,280 --> 02:03:06,280
thing I wish I could sort of
offer humanity, it would be to

1867
02:03:06,600 --> 02:03:12,720
create the incentive to become
more open, more accepting of

1868
02:03:12,720 --> 02:03:16,600
alternative, entertaining, at
least alternative perspectives.

1869
02:03:17,000 --> 02:03:20,280
Appreciating that even if
something doesn't land with you,

1870
02:03:20,280 --> 02:03:22,280
that it's an idea worth
listening to.

1871
02:03:22,600 --> 02:03:26,320
And that, that basic
perspective, I think, could go

1872
02:03:26,480 --> 02:03:31,000
so far to helping humanity turn
this corner, showing greater

1873
02:03:31,000 --> 02:03:35,000
respect for alternative
perspectives and ultimately its

1874
02:03:35,000 --> 02:03:35,760
own survival.