Tim Maudlin: Was Einstein Wrong? Bell's Inequality & Universal Non-Locality

1
00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,960
So talk to me about this, this
journey of philosophy.

2
00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,960
And I mean today when we think
about science, we think about

3
00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,240
the fact that it's very
pragmatic, very practical, and a

4
00:00:20,240 --> 00:00:22,920
lot of scientists tend to
disregard what philosophers have

5
00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,800
to say.
So I want to know from you, does

6
00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:32,130
science need philosophy?
As I I mean, I'll start with an

7
00:00:32,130 --> 00:00:36,210
observation that I that I always
make, which is that all those

8
00:00:36,210 --> 00:00:39,810
people in the science
departments and universities,

9
00:00:40,050 --> 00:00:42,170
they all hold doctorates of
philosophy.

10
00:00:44,770 --> 00:00:48,050
So they are, I mean officially
they are philosophers.

11
00:00:48,050 --> 00:00:51,450
Why is that?
Because philosophy is, just by

12
00:00:51,450 --> 00:00:54,530
definition the search for wisdom
or knowledge, right or

13
00:00:54,530 --> 00:00:57,730
understanding.
Which people do in all sorts of

14
00:00:57,730 --> 00:01:00,890
ways, hopefully in different
departments using different

15
00:01:00,890 --> 00:01:04,650
techniques.
So do you need philosophy?

16
00:01:04,650 --> 00:01:07,530
Well, if you if you're not
interested in knowledge, if

17
00:01:07,530 --> 00:01:11,010
you're not interested in
understanding, you're not in

18
00:01:11,010 --> 00:01:14,370
business as far as I'm
concerned, then you know what's

19
00:01:14,370 --> 00:01:16,530
left in that.
What they mean, of course, is do

20
00:01:16,530 --> 00:01:19,130
you need what people in
philosophy departments do?

21
00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,840
And and of course Newton was a
natural philosopher, right?

22
00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,480
I mean he would identify himself
as a philosopher and Descartes

23
00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,200
and Leibnitz and you know, all
of these people who were very

24
00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,040
important in history of science
would identify themselves as

25
00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,640
philosophers.
But as those different

26
00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,560
disciplines became more
self-sufficient and more

27
00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,240
specialized, they got shunted
off into different places in the

28
00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,800
Academy.
And then the people left in

29
00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,600
philosophy departments are just
the leftovers who sort of didn't

30
00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:52,920
have anywhere else to go.
But that includes lots of

31
00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,680
people.
I mean, I'll I'll just take as

32
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,080
an example.
David Albert over in Columbia is

33
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,200
in the philosophy department.
His degree is in theoretical

34
00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,520
physics from Rockefeller
University.

35
00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,120
Why is he in a philosophy
department?

36
00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:10,240
Because he was interested in
questions of physics that

37
00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,000
physics departments are no
longer very interested in.

38
00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:16,200
And he could pursue those
questions better in a philosophy

39
00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,920
department.
I mean, my own degree, highest

40
00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:21,640
degree is history and philosophy
of science.

41
00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:23,960
It's not actually a philosophy
degree, if you will.

42
00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:28,640
Is it surprising that that I am
interested in science and maybe

43
00:02:28,640 --> 00:02:30,960
have some intelligent things to
say about it?

44
00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:36,080
Not, you know, not from my
background and my training when

45
00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,320
you say that that physics today
is very practical.

46
00:02:42,170 --> 00:02:45,090
That suggests, first of all, it
suggests one thing, and second

47
00:02:45,090 --> 00:02:46,730
of all, in a certain sense, it
isn't true at all.

48
00:02:46,810 --> 00:02:49,250
Okay.
So the thing it suggests is that

49
00:02:49,730 --> 00:02:53,210
all of physics has just become a
branch of engineering, right?

50
00:02:53,210 --> 00:02:56,370
That the only reason 1 pursues
physics is because at the end of

51
00:02:56,370 --> 00:02:58,250
the day, you get toaster ovens
out of it.

52
00:02:59,050 --> 00:03:01,930
And you know, that would be
awfully sad.

53
00:03:01,970 --> 00:03:03,930
And then they should just stop
calling them physics

54
00:03:03,930 --> 00:03:05,730
departments.
As far as I'm concerned, as you

55
00:03:05,730 --> 00:03:08,210
know, say Okay, we're going to
move you over to the engineering

56
00:03:08,290 --> 00:03:10,940
school.
And the second thing is just not

57
00:03:10,940 --> 00:03:13,620
true at all.
I mean, for for 50 years, high

58
00:03:13,620 --> 00:03:16,500
energy physicists have been
trying to figure out this thing

59
00:03:16,500 --> 00:03:19,740
called string theory.
Does it have any practical

60
00:03:19,740 --> 00:03:21,180
applications?
No.

61
00:03:21,420 --> 00:03:24,540
Could it ever conceivably have
any practical applications?

62
00:03:24,740 --> 00:03:27,020
No.
Is it likely to even be correct?

63
00:03:27,020 --> 00:03:29,300
That turns out to be no, too.
That's a different issue.

64
00:03:29,300 --> 00:03:32,300
But even if it were correct,
it's not going to give you a

65
00:03:32,300 --> 00:03:36,620
better toaster of it, right?
So it's just not true that the

66
00:03:36,620 --> 00:03:41,130
the primary motive.
Of even what's done in physics

67
00:03:41,130 --> 00:03:45,850
departments is practical.
The problem is this, the

68
00:03:45,850 --> 00:03:49,650
theoretic, the purely
theoretical part, the part that

69
00:03:49,650 --> 00:03:54,730
is aimed at simply understanding
the physical world.

70
00:03:55,370 --> 00:04:03,010
That part has been neglected in
physics education for over half

71
00:04:03,010 --> 00:04:05,570
a century.
Probably more than that, for

72
00:04:05,570 --> 00:04:08,090
funny historical reasons that
have to do with quantum

73
00:04:08,090 --> 00:04:11,640
mechanics.
So the sorts of questions that

74
00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,280
Einstein would have been asking
all the time and Schrodinger was

75
00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,120
asking all the time have been
kind of kicked out of the

76
00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,880
physics curriculum.
And those of us who are

77
00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,360
interested in those questions
find that a tragedy, and we find

78
00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,480
somewhere else to ply our trade.
Because what else can we do?

79
00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,720
It's just you can't make a
living in a physics department

80
00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:38,940
caring only about understanding.
In in the in the kind of

81
00:04:39,260 --> 00:04:43,380
understanding that was standard,
the sort of thing that that

82
00:04:43,620 --> 00:04:46,820
Maxwell worried about, the sort
of thing that Boltsman worried

83
00:04:46,820 --> 00:04:53,420
about that it's just not it.
It's not considered proper in

84
00:04:53,420 --> 00:04:56,580
most physics departments.
Although I I have to finish that

85
00:04:56,580 --> 00:04:58,620
by saying my sense is it's
getting better.

86
00:04:58,940 --> 00:05:02,260
My sense is that things are
coming back after a long, dry

87
00:05:02,260 --> 00:05:06,220
period.
And and physicists are more

88
00:05:06,220 --> 00:05:11,740
interested in purely questions
of what does it mean to

89
00:05:11,740 --> 00:05:14,340
understand something?
What how should a well

90
00:05:14,340 --> 00:05:17,780
formulated theory be presented,
or how should it be formulated

91
00:05:17,780 --> 00:05:20,740
and things like that, and what
what counts as an explanation.

92
00:05:20,860 --> 00:05:26,180
All sorts of questions that get
into more philosophical

93
00:05:26,540 --> 00:05:29,660
territory, if you will.
I think you're absolutely right.

94
00:05:29,660 --> 00:05:32,450
I think that's, I mean
particularly with platforms like

95
00:05:32,450 --> 00:05:35,650
this, podcasts, I mean we have
this opportunity to dissect

96
00:05:35,650 --> 00:05:38,410
certain physical, while certain
physicists theories and talk

97
00:05:38,410 --> 00:05:42,330
about it and it opens up the
platform for the layman let's

98
00:05:42,330 --> 00:05:45,650
say to to ask questions that's
perhaps some scientists don't

99
00:05:45,650 --> 00:05:46,890
really think about in the
day-to-day.

100
00:05:46,890 --> 00:05:49,730
Because more often than not,
we're all placed in these

101
00:05:49,730 --> 00:05:52,850
normative values that we go
through life engaging with, and

102
00:05:52,850 --> 00:05:55,370
we don't really realize that we
place value judgments to

103
00:05:55,370 --> 00:05:58,060
everything we do.
Do you think?

104
00:05:58,060 --> 00:06:01,900
Yeah, I I mean, I have to say my
experience in physics and a lot

105
00:06:01,900 --> 00:06:04,820
of people's experiences, physics
isn't that it's quite as

106
00:06:05,380 --> 00:06:10,460
unnoticed, as insidious as that.
You know, there's this phrase

107
00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:14,940
that either Feynman or or David
Merman came up with shut up and

108
00:06:14,940 --> 00:06:19,740
calculate.
And I know from my own personal

109
00:06:19,740 --> 00:06:22,500
experience and from many other
people's experience and from my

110
00:06:22,500 --> 00:06:25,620
students experience that they
confront this in physics

111
00:06:25,620 --> 00:06:27,490
departments.
Exactly.

112
00:06:27,490 --> 00:06:30,450
When they want to raise the
sorts of questions that I've

113
00:06:30,450 --> 00:06:35,370
been talking about, what's
really going on, you know, what

114
00:06:35,370 --> 00:06:37,890
really is an electron?
I mean, do electrons really

115
00:06:37,890 --> 00:06:39,650
orbit?
I mean what are these these

116
00:06:39,650 --> 00:06:42,370
kinds of questions or physics
questions And they raise them in

117
00:06:42,370 --> 00:06:44,890
class and then they're told shut
up and calculate, right?

118
00:06:44,890 --> 00:06:48,290
I'm going to give you a method
for making predictions about

119
00:06:48,290 --> 00:06:52,800
outcomes of experiments and.
That method involves solving a

120
00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:54,880
bunch of equations, not learn to
solve the equations.

121
00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:56,880
And they're upset about it.
They don't like it.

122
00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,440
They come and take classes in
philosophy of physics, in the in

123
00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,200
the philosophy department
because they don't like it.

124
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,080
And they say, gosh, this is,
this is what I was interested

125
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:07,760
in.
So I don't think it's quite as

126
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,720
insidious in that I think that
it's a source of immediate

127
00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,600
frustration to many, many
students.

128
00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,100
Eventually you get worn down.
Or eventually, maybe there's a

129
00:07:19,100 --> 00:07:21,900
sorting process that if this is
really what you care about, you

130
00:07:22,020 --> 00:07:24,980
just abandoned physics because
it's not addressing the

131
00:07:24,980 --> 00:07:30,540
questions you're interested in.
But I think my sense is that

132
00:07:31,340 --> 00:07:40,820
many physicists harbor this
sense of of unease about the way

133
00:07:40,820 --> 00:07:42,980
physics has gone, and are
actually quite happy.

134
00:07:42,980 --> 00:07:45,460
When you come and talk to them
about these questions in a

135
00:07:45,540 --> 00:07:49,400
straightforward way, you would
draw in particularly to the

136
00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,040
philosophy of physics.
It is is that because of this

137
00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:57,080
innate curiosity to figure out
the fundamental nature of

138
00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,760
reality done at its core.
Yeah, I I mean, as I said, I

139
00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:02,920
think that's true.
You have to be a little careful

140
00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:07,040
when you say it because it could
be misconstrued about what you

141
00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:12,040
mean by fundamental because and
unfortunately again, they're all

142
00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:17,290
these means of the arrogant.
Physicist who says, oh, you

143
00:08:17,290 --> 00:08:20,210
know, chemistry is just applied
physics, and biology is just

144
00:08:20,210 --> 00:08:23,210
applied chemistry and neurology
is just applied biology.

145
00:08:23,210 --> 00:08:25,370
And psychology is just, you
know, and everything.

146
00:08:25,530 --> 00:08:27,970
Everything is really, really,
really, really physics.

147
00:08:29,890 --> 00:08:31,930
I think that's unfair to the
other disciplines.

148
00:08:31,930 --> 00:08:35,289
I don't think that's
appreciating the structure of

149
00:08:35,289 --> 00:08:39,090
the kind of understanding and
explanation you get out of

150
00:08:39,809 --> 00:08:42,370
something like chemistry or
something like.

151
00:08:42,929 --> 00:08:46,250
Neuroscience or no, I mean
economics.

152
00:08:46,250 --> 00:08:49,050
I mean, you know, yes, you need
a physical world to have an

153
00:08:49,050 --> 00:08:53,410
economic system, but really,
honestly, you know, figuring out

154
00:08:53,410 --> 00:08:55,930
whether the string theory is not
going to make a a Dimes worth of

155
00:08:55,930 --> 00:09:01,690
difference to to economics.
But there is a sense, right?

156
00:09:01,690 --> 00:09:08,330
There is a specific sense in
which, yes, chemical behavior

157
00:09:08,330 --> 00:09:11,610
arises out of physical behavior
and not the other way around.

158
00:09:12,580 --> 00:09:16,460
The way I often like to say this
is, is, is there's this, I I

159
00:09:16,460 --> 00:09:19,980
mean you may know this Tom
Lehrer, wonderful Tom Lehrer

160
00:09:19,980 --> 00:09:23,020
song about Werner von Braun
where he says that's not my

161
00:09:23,020 --> 00:09:25,780
department, said Werner.
Right. the Rockets go up.

162
00:09:25,900 --> 00:09:28,460
Who cares where they come down?
That's not my department, said

163
00:09:28,460 --> 00:09:32,860
Werner von Brown.
The thing that's special about

164
00:09:32,860 --> 00:09:38,020
physics among the empirical
sciences is that every.

165
00:09:38,540 --> 00:09:42,820
Phenomenon studied by any other
science is also a physical

166
00:09:42,820 --> 00:09:46,740
phenomenon right Now, you may
not be studying it as a

167
00:09:46,740 --> 00:09:49,980
physicist, but it is a physical
phenomenon, right?

168
00:09:50,380 --> 00:09:54,620
And therefore, again, you know
there's a stock market crash and

169
00:09:54,620 --> 00:09:56,260
you're an economist.
You're trying to figure out why?

170
00:09:56,260 --> 00:09:58,700
Well, that stock market crash,
which involves a bunch of people

171
00:09:58,700 --> 00:10:01,380
pushing buttons and selling
stocks, that was a physical

172
00:10:01,380 --> 00:10:04,060
event and therefore in
principle.

173
00:10:05,070 --> 00:10:08,750
It falls under physics and and
the physicists can, every other

174
00:10:08,750 --> 00:10:10,830
department can say of some
things.

175
00:10:10,830 --> 00:10:14,430
That's not my department, right?
I mean, the, you know, the

176
00:10:14,430 --> 00:10:16,870
economist says, look, there was
a big problem because of these

177
00:10:17,350 --> 00:10:18,750
droughts.
And then you say, but why did

178
00:10:18,750 --> 00:10:20,710
the drought occur?
And the economist says, I don't

179
00:10:20,710 --> 00:10:21,870
know why the drought occurred.
Right.

180
00:10:21,870 --> 00:10:24,430
Go talk to the climatologist.
That's not my department.

181
00:10:24,430 --> 00:10:27,670
That's not what I deal with.
And physicists never have that

182
00:10:27,670 --> 00:10:31,830
out because everything is a
physical phenomenon in a certain

183
00:10:31,830 --> 00:10:33,910
sense.
They have to be able to handle

184
00:10:33,910 --> 00:10:37,990
it.
Theoretically, in that sense, in

185
00:10:37,990 --> 00:10:40,830
in a very specific sense, I
think physics is the most

186
00:10:40,830 --> 00:10:43,270
fundamental of all the empirical
sciences.

187
00:10:43,630 --> 00:10:45,910
And therefore if you're
interested in that kind of

188
00:10:45,910 --> 00:10:49,990
fundamentality, you are drawn to
physics.

189
00:10:49,990 --> 00:10:52,950
And that's why I think they're
more philosophers of physics

190
00:10:52,950 --> 00:10:54,430
than there are of other
sciences.

191
00:10:54,430 --> 00:10:56,910
Even though there are a lot of
philosophers of biology and some

192
00:10:56,910 --> 00:11:00,150
fosters of chemistry and some
philosophers of economics, other

193
00:11:00,150 --> 00:11:04,370
sciences have their problems.
And their issues and need to be

194
00:11:04,370 --> 00:11:08,290
understood.
But most people I think at this

195
00:11:08,290 --> 00:11:11,810
point in a specialized field in
philosophy of science or

196
00:11:11,810 --> 00:11:15,210
philosophers of physics, I think
with that nice, with that

197
00:11:15,210 --> 00:11:17,970
background in mind, how would
you define matter?

198
00:11:19,570 --> 00:11:23,730
Well, that's a you know, so one
thing you learn real quick.

199
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:28,200
If you have a philosophy
education, is that how do you

200
00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,120
define X?
Is often just a trick question.

201
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,800
It's really hard to define
anything accurately.

202
00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,440
I mean Plato, you know, Socrates
figured that out.

203
00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,320
How do you define virtue?
How do you find right?

204
00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,000
And then it keeps poking holes
in it.

205
00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,840
I don't think definition is
quite the right right word for

206
00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,680
here we have unquestioned
examples of matter, right.

207
00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:55,080
I mean this.
Gadget I'm holding in my hand is

208
00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:56,800
matter.
And in fact my hand is matter.

209
00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,720
And and in fact anything that is
in space and time and moves

210
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,080
around in space and time is sort
of material.

211
00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,880
Now even there you're getting a
you can get on the edge.

212
00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,240
And people say, well, what about
electromagnetic waves?

213
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:10,960
They're in space and time and
they move around.

214
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,000
Are they matter or not?
Right.

215
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,200
And then you could get into a a
little kind of pointless

216
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:22,400
semantic debate over it.
But we have these examples.

217
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,720
Of what we know, absolutely.
We treat as matter.

218
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,480
And you can sort of think and
and and that involves, you know,

219
00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,280
solid objects, gases, stuff like
that.

220
00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,680
And then you're in the game of
trying to explain how they

221
00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:43,280
behave.
And then physics can postulate

222
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,440
new things in service of that
explanation.

223
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,920
That's how we got
electromagnetic waves, because

224
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,720
we started with things that are
clearly matter, like.

225
00:12:52,270 --> 00:12:55,350
Wires, right.
Voltaic cells.

226
00:12:56,710 --> 00:13:00,430
And then you you, you say, gosh,
you know, these voltaic cells

227
00:13:00,510 --> 00:13:04,150
and and so on, They're doing
interesting things, it turns

228
00:13:04,150 --> 00:13:06,750
out.
I can explain that or account

229
00:13:06,750 --> 00:13:09,430
for that much better if I
postulate these things called

230
00:13:09,430 --> 00:13:13,630
electromagnetic waves.
And that's my reason for doing

231
00:13:13,630 --> 00:13:16,830
it.
Now the question that then came

232
00:13:16,830 --> 00:13:20,350
up at the time quite honestly
and can come up is yeah, but do

233
00:13:20,350 --> 00:13:22,950
they count as matter?
I think at that point you should

234
00:13:22,950 --> 00:13:25,750
just shrug and say I don't care,
you know, call it whatever you

235
00:13:25,750 --> 00:13:28,270
want.
The theory postulates there is

236
00:13:28,270 --> 00:13:30,790
this, you know, their
electromagnetic fields are

237
00:13:30,790 --> 00:13:33,710
fields, material.
And you know, that's just as we

238
00:13:33,710 --> 00:13:37,190
say that's mere semantics.
If you believe in them, if you

239
00:13:37,190 --> 00:13:39,830
think, gosh, I have good reason
to believe there are such things

240
00:13:39,830 --> 00:13:42,150
and I have good reason to
believe they behave in such and

241
00:13:42,150 --> 00:13:46,470
such a way, then who cares
whether you call them matter or

242
00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:48,590
not?
At the end of the day, your only

243
00:13:48,590 --> 00:13:52,470
reason for believing them is the
effect they have on things that

244
00:13:52,470 --> 00:13:57,310
are unproblematically matter.
You know the vibration in a

245
00:13:57,310 --> 00:14:02,630
radio speaker?
That's clearly a material, You

246
00:14:02,630 --> 00:14:08,590
know the speaker is material and
the vibration that gives the

247
00:14:08,710 --> 00:14:12,910
music out of the thing, right?
That's a material motion if at

248
00:14:12,910 --> 00:14:15,110
the end of the day, to account
for that you have to postulate

249
00:14:15,110 --> 00:14:17,280
electromagnetic waves.
OK.

250
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,800
Then you do and further tussling
over whether the waves

251
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,600
themselves are material in some
sense you would you would have

252
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,480
to precisely define what you
mean.

253
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,280
I don't see any point in getting
that precise about it.

254
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,400
I don't see you gain anything at
that point.

255
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,360
Do you not feel at that point
then we're almost then going

256
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,840
towards a the physics
understanding of well taking

257
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,400
into account we're just
discussing philosophy versus how

258
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,520
scientific inquiry is different.
Do you not feel if we do not do

259
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,200
that, then we we almost make the
mistake of what the physicists

260
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,520
are currently doing and just
going with the flow and shutting

261
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,280
up and calculating this is no.
No, no, no.

262
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,080
I mean, let me give an even more
dramatic example.

263
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,160
Every approach to quantum
mechanics that seems to have any

264
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:09,480
chance of being correct
postulates a thing that is

265
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,640
represented by a mathematical
object called a wave function.

266
00:15:13,170 --> 00:15:17,210
Now there was a a big debate for
a long time whether there is any

267
00:15:17,210 --> 00:15:19,770
such thing, whether wave
functions, these mathematical

268
00:15:19,770 --> 00:15:24,930
things represent any physical
feature of an individual system.

269
00:15:26,170 --> 00:15:28,690
Okay.
So that's a very well defined

270
00:15:28,690 --> 00:15:31,170
question.
I have a single physical system,

271
00:15:31,330 --> 00:15:33,810
ultimately the entire universe.
That's really going to be the

272
00:15:34,170 --> 00:15:38,890
the one there is.
I ascribe to it a wave function

273
00:15:38,890 --> 00:15:40,760
which I use for calculating.
Okay.

274
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,760
Does that wave function
represent a physical feature of

275
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,200
that individual system?
Now, there are different answers

276
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,240
you could take to that.
Einstein didn't think so.

277
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,880
Einstein thought, no, really.
Wave functions are merely

278
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,200
statistical devices.
They represent statistical

279
00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,760
averages of ensembles of
systems.

280
00:16:00,290 --> 00:16:06,570
Okay these people now a day who
go under the name Qbism say no,

281
00:16:06,570 --> 00:16:10,010
wave functions don't represent
anything about the system.

282
00:16:10,010 --> 00:16:13,570
They represent your knowledge
and and so you know, people like

283
00:16:13,570 --> 00:16:16,930
Chris Books will say Psy ought
to be not put on the system, but

284
00:16:16,930 --> 00:16:21,210
pasted to your forehead because
it represents your information,

285
00:16:21,250 --> 00:16:22,930
right.
So that's not a feature of the

286
00:16:22,930 --> 00:16:25,010
physical system, it's feature of
you.

287
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,880
And then there were people who
thought all along, for kind of

288
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,840
obvious reasons.
No, that really is a physical

289
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:37,200
feature of the individual system
which is being represented one

290
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,920
way or another by this thing
which is often called psi on the

291
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,640
the psi ontological position.
So you can have a debate about

292
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:47,240
that.
Now I think there's a certain

293
00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,680
theorem, the PBR theorem.
I think there were lots of

294
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,680
phenomena which you couldn't
understand.

295
00:16:52,460 --> 00:16:55,380
In this, So the first one we
call psi statistical, right?

296
00:16:55,380 --> 00:16:59,020
Psi represents not an individual
thing but a statistical thing.

297
00:16:59,620 --> 00:17:04,180
And the other, psi, I don't
know, subjective, I don't know

298
00:17:04,180 --> 00:17:07,900
there's a word for it anyway.
And then psi ontological.

299
00:17:08,140 --> 00:17:11,220
And I think there's a theorem
that essentially shows you

300
00:17:11,220 --> 00:17:14,380
you've got to go that way, that
that that the wave function does

301
00:17:14,380 --> 00:17:17,660
represent a physical feature of
individual systems, ultimately

302
00:17:18,060 --> 00:17:20,980
of the universe.
Now we come to your question.

303
00:17:21,650 --> 00:17:26,650
Is it material?
Not by any sense of material

304
00:17:26,650 --> 00:17:29,250
that Newton would have
recognized, right?

305
00:17:29,570 --> 00:17:39,280
Not by any sense of material
that think, who cares, right?

306
00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:44,000
If you accept that it's real,
that's the big.

307
00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:47,660
Decision point the The
difference between this and shut

308
00:17:47,660 --> 00:17:49,900
up and calculate is you ask, is
it real?

309
00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:52,300
And then you say, I don't care,
shut up and calculate.

310
00:17:53,260 --> 00:17:54,980
I don't.
You know, I don't care about

311
00:17:54,980 --> 00:17:59,100
deciding between psi ontological
and psi statistical and psi

312
00:17:59,100 --> 00:18:00,980
epistemic.
I guess that's the third one,

313
00:18:00,980 --> 00:18:03,940
right?
I don't even care because you've

314
00:18:03,940 --> 00:18:05,500
given me this mathematical
gadget.

315
00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:08,260
I know how to calculate with it.
Shut up and calculate.

316
00:18:09,620 --> 00:18:11,940
So that's the thing that kills
you, right?

317
00:18:12,830 --> 00:18:16,110
That that's very different than
saying okay once you've once

318
00:18:16,110 --> 00:18:20,910
you're clear my theory
postulates this thing then

319
00:18:20,910 --> 00:18:25,390
adding qualifiers like material
immaterial non material some

320
00:18:25,390 --> 00:18:30,710
other super material.
I don't know there I don't I I

321
00:18:30,710 --> 00:18:32,870
don't see that it makes a lot of
difference I don't think our

322
00:18:32,870 --> 00:18:36,190
concept, let me put it this way.
I don't think our concept of

323
00:18:36,190 --> 00:18:41,580
materiality was born.
In a setting where we had to

324
00:18:41,580 --> 00:18:44,620
make decisions like that.
And so it's just kind of neutral

325
00:18:44,620 --> 00:18:46,220
about it.
I mean, this happens all the

326
00:18:46,220 --> 00:18:49,820
time.
Take the obvious concept,

327
00:18:49,820 --> 00:18:52,660
mother.
So we all grow up.

328
00:18:52,660 --> 00:18:54,740
We say, I know what a mother is,
We can certainly point to

329
00:18:54,740 --> 00:18:59,060
certain people and say she's a
mother, and then they're they're

330
00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:06,260
more unusual situations where
the markers we use for that come

331
00:19:06,260 --> 00:19:09,120
apart.
So the, the easiest one is just

332
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:11,080
adoption, right.
And then you say, oh, now I need

333
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,520
to make a distinction.
Biological mother, adoptive

334
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,640
mother.
If someone says, who's the real

335
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,640
mother?
You might say stop.

336
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,760
I mean, real is not, you know, I
mean, it's offensive in some

337
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,680
cases.
Or then you go even further, you

338
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,120
say, oh, I'm going to take this
fertilized egg and I'm going to

339
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:29,600
put it in this other person.
Who's she?

340
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,280
Oh, she's the surrogate mother.
Well, wait, I'm actually going

341
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,120
to take the cytoplasm from this
egg and plug in the nucleus from

342
00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:39,560
this other egg now.
Who's the And you say, Look, as

343
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:45,560
long as I've described to you
what's happening, The word

344
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:50,760
mother just didn't arise in
English or in any language, in a

345
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,880
circumstance where you had to
make these finer distinctions.

346
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:57,280
And so there's just no fact
about how it goes you.

347
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,600
The the fact is, you now have to
think about situations you

348
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,920
hadn't thought about before and
just be clear when you're

349
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,780
talking about them.
But there's no point in having a

350
00:20:05,780 --> 00:20:08,540
fight over it, right?
What does quote mother really

351
00:20:08,540 --> 00:20:11,500
mean?
It doesn't really mean any of

352
00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:14,500
those particular things because
it didn't have to, right.

353
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:16,580
We didn't have to make up our
mind what we meant.

354
00:20:17,340 --> 00:20:21,460
Yes, right.
I feel like this, this whole

355
00:20:21,460 --> 00:20:23,780
relative aspect of it all, is
quite concerning in the sense

356
00:20:23,780 --> 00:20:26,780
that when you think about us as
biological beings that evolved

357
00:20:26,780 --> 00:20:29,660
on this planet with certain
heuristic adaptations or

358
00:20:29,660 --> 00:20:33,990
whatever predispositions were.
We were confined to within this

359
00:20:34,190 --> 00:20:37,150
atmospheric filter.
Do you feel that because of that

360
00:20:37,150 --> 00:20:40,990
we are obviously limited to the
access of reality we can attain?

361
00:20:41,390 --> 00:20:43,910
There's always going to be some
sort of a limitation to what we

362
00:20:43,910 --> 00:20:46,470
can perceive and how we define
these concepts in the 1st place.

363
00:20:46,870 --> 00:20:49,510
What sort of philosophical
implications does that have for

364
00:20:49,510 --> 00:20:53,070
us in our understanding of what
matter will eventually be?

365
00:20:53,790 --> 00:20:58,190
Yeah, I don't think.
I don't think that's a

366
00:20:58,190 --> 00:21:00,470
philosophical question in the
sense of one that could be

367
00:21:00,470 --> 00:21:02,110
answered using philosophical
tools.

368
00:21:02,110 --> 00:21:04,870
It's it.
There is a question which you're

369
00:21:04,990 --> 00:21:07,950
bringing up and other people
have brought up and it's often

370
00:21:08,790 --> 00:21:12,790
under the kind of rubric of
saying, look, we are animals

371
00:21:12,790 --> 00:21:16,350
that are descendants of animals
that had to survive in the

372
00:21:16,350 --> 00:21:19,390
Savannah.
And because of that, the

373
00:21:20,510 --> 00:21:24,230
selection pressures were for a
kind of intelligence that would

374
00:21:24,230 --> 00:21:30,090
help you survive in the Savannah
and that kind of intelligence.

375
00:21:30,090 --> 00:21:34,330
Why would you think it's.
It's up to the task of

376
00:21:34,330 --> 00:21:39,610
understanding subatomic physics
or cosmology or whatever.

377
00:21:39,850 --> 00:21:42,890
Maybe.
You know, as they say, trying to

378
00:21:42,890 --> 00:21:46,250
understand the universe is like
trying to teach a German

379
00:21:46,530 --> 00:21:49,450
Shepherd calculus, right.
They're just not going to get

380
00:21:49,450 --> 00:21:51,770
it.
And.

381
00:21:51,850 --> 00:21:54,570
And and, you know, there's
nothing one can respond to that

382
00:21:54,570 --> 00:21:57,090
possibility except that, yeah,
that's possible.

383
00:21:57,730 --> 00:22:00,410
But then you have to say, all
right, now it's empirical

384
00:22:00,410 --> 00:22:06,530
inquiry do are there markers
that somehow it's just our

385
00:22:06,530 --> 00:22:09,170
intelligence or our way of
thinking about the world or

386
00:22:09,170 --> 00:22:11,210
whatever are not up to this
task?

387
00:22:11,850 --> 00:22:16,410
And there we have very, very
compelling evidence that we're

388
00:22:16,410 --> 00:22:19,250
really up to going far beyond
the Savannah, right.

389
00:22:19,250 --> 00:22:25,410
I mean whatever you think of it,
physics works really well,

390
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,200
right?
The standard model works really,

391
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,760
really well for stuff that had,
you know, at subatomic scale

392
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,560
that had nothing to do with get
surviving in the Savannah and

393
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,480
structure.
You know, theories of structure

394
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:43,200
formation in cosmology work
really, really well for issues

395
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:44,840
that didn't come up in the
Savannah.

396
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:51,380
It just we know that our
intelligence is up to tasks that

397
00:22:51,380 --> 00:22:54,940
that go far, far beyond those
limitations.

398
00:22:54,940 --> 00:22:58,340
So just that's not a proof They
go far enough, right?

399
00:22:58,340 --> 00:23:01,740
That's not a proof that we won't
hit a wall somewhere, but the

400
00:23:01,740 --> 00:23:04,860
only way to find out if we hit a
wall is to keep going and seeing

401
00:23:04,860 --> 00:23:08,620
if you hit the wall, right.
But to understand whether you've

402
00:23:08,620 --> 00:23:12,740
hit a wall of that sort, you
have to be very self aware about

403
00:23:12,740 --> 00:23:14,940
what you're doing and the kinds
of problems you're running up

404
00:23:14,940 --> 00:23:16,980
against and so on.
I mean, you sure?

405
00:23:16,980 --> 00:23:22,870
Maybe at some point physics will
just fail and we'll never

406
00:23:22,870 --> 00:23:25,830
understand why it fails, because
we're not smart enough to

407
00:23:25,830 --> 00:23:28,390
understand the problem.
Yeah, I was just going to say, I

408
00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:30,150
mean, there's so many unknown
unknowns.

409
00:23:30,950 --> 00:23:33,070
We even know if we hit them,
right?

410
00:23:33,070 --> 00:23:34,030
So what?
Yeah.

411
00:23:34,030 --> 00:23:35,550
What do you do with an unknown?
Unknown.

412
00:23:35,550 --> 00:23:37,150
Well, you can't.
You know you because it's

413
00:23:37,150 --> 00:23:38,870
unknown.
You can't do anything except

414
00:23:38,870 --> 00:23:42,310
keep going and see if you bump
up against it at some point.

415
00:23:44,350 --> 00:23:54,270
I We certainly have done
extremely well, far beyond the

416
00:23:54,270 --> 00:23:59,910
needs of evolution, right.
The human intelligence just

417
00:23:59,910 --> 00:24:05,150
demonstrably is not limited to
what evolution needed us to be

418
00:24:05,150 --> 00:24:10,710
able to do to survive.
And look, you know Andrew Wiles

419
00:24:10,710 --> 00:24:12,910
proved for Mott's last Theorem,
right?

420
00:24:13,070 --> 00:24:14,790
That's not going to help you in
the Savannah.

421
00:24:14,830 --> 00:24:17,590
It was really clever and it was
hard and he did it.

422
00:24:19,770 --> 00:24:23,650
So I'm an optimist, right?
I mean, why not be an optimist?

423
00:24:23,650 --> 00:24:26,090
If you're a pessimist and just,
you know, then just pack up your

424
00:24:26,090 --> 00:24:28,650
bags and go away.
What can you say?

425
00:24:28,650 --> 00:24:31,250
I can't prove you're wrong, but
you know but that you shouldn't

426
00:24:31,250 --> 00:24:33,970
be in this business.
I know I was just about to ask

427
00:24:33,970 --> 00:24:35,250
you.
I mean, well, what are your own

428
00:24:35,250 --> 00:24:36,690
intuitions about it?
But I mean, you've clearly

429
00:24:36,690 --> 00:24:41,290
answered it.
Do you think that's this limit

430
00:24:41,290 --> 00:24:43,610
or this wall that we might hit
would come sooner than we think?

431
00:24:43,610 --> 00:24:45,570
Or do you think it's still gonna
progress for quite some time?

432
00:24:46,300 --> 00:24:48,100
I think this is the unknown of
the unknown.

433
00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:52,660
I mean, I, I, I again, I can't.
There's no point in speculating

434
00:24:52,660 --> 00:24:55,060
about the nature of something
about which you have no

435
00:24:55,060 --> 00:24:57,180
information whether it even
exists.

436
00:24:58,100 --> 00:25:01,980
As I say, if the only way to
find out if there's if there's a

437
00:25:01,980 --> 00:25:06,380
wall is to keep going until you
seem to hit it and we're not

438
00:25:06,380 --> 00:25:10,740
there yet, right?
We have problems in physics, but

439
00:25:10,780 --> 00:25:13,940
none of them look in in, in
principle, intractable.

440
00:25:13,940 --> 00:25:16,140
And there are proposals for
dealing with them.

441
00:25:16,140 --> 00:25:19,180
Maybe none of the proposals on
offer are correct, but it's it

442
00:25:19,300 --> 00:25:22,340
it it just doesn't look like.
I mean, this is very different.

443
00:25:22,340 --> 00:25:24,540
Let me, let me maybe make a
contrast here.

444
00:25:25,100 --> 00:25:27,420
Here's something that I don't
think we do understand, and I

445
00:25:27,420 --> 00:25:28,780
don't think we ever will
understand.

446
00:25:28,980 --> 00:25:34,460
Consciousness, right?
Why should some physical systems

447
00:25:35,620 --> 00:25:40,990
have interior lives?
Why should some physical goings

448
00:25:40,990 --> 00:25:47,190
on in brains be associated with
pain, with the felt unpleasant

449
00:25:49,030 --> 00:25:52,790
feeling of pain?
How do I get from the physics

450
00:25:52,790 --> 00:25:55,150
description of that to the
subjective description?

451
00:25:55,310 --> 00:25:58,870
I don't think we have a clue.
I don't think unlike the case

452
00:25:58,870 --> 00:26:02,790
where say putting together
quantum mechanics and and

453
00:26:02,790 --> 00:26:06,350
relativity, general relativity,
There are lots of suggestions on

454
00:26:06,350 --> 00:26:10,210
offer that could work.
I don't think anybody's made any

455
00:26:10,210 --> 00:26:11,530
suggestion.
I wouldn't know what a

456
00:26:11,530 --> 00:26:14,930
suggestion would even look like
that could make sense of that

457
00:26:15,490 --> 00:26:18,290
and and there I don't work on
it, right.

458
00:26:18,290 --> 00:26:21,410
I mean I wrote one paper which
was a negative paper saying

459
00:26:21,410 --> 00:26:23,730
you're not going to understand
this using you know the theory

460
00:26:23,730 --> 00:26:27,850
of computation.
Sorry, but I don't work on it

461
00:26:27,850 --> 00:26:29,490
because I don't see any prospect
for it.

462
00:26:30,130 --> 00:26:32,810
So I work on stuff where there
certainly are prospects.

463
00:26:32,970 --> 00:26:37,810
So it's not like I necessarily
think there can't be cognitive

464
00:26:37,810 --> 00:26:41,930
limits and maybe and I I'm very
inclined to think the mind body

465
00:26:41,930 --> 00:26:48,570
problem is 1 and and then I do
the normal thing in such a case.

466
00:26:48,570 --> 00:26:51,610
I mean, I could spend all of my
days just trying to shoot down

467
00:26:51,610 --> 00:26:54,530
proposals that people come up
with, you know, which, God

468
00:26:54,530 --> 00:26:57,090
knows, they have them and pan
psychism and this and that.

469
00:26:57,620 --> 00:27:00,540
Yeah, but to me, that's not very
interesting, right?

470
00:27:00,820 --> 00:27:03,380
I'd rather spend my time in a
more what I consider to be

471
00:27:03,380 --> 00:27:05,980
productive way.
Well, then what?

472
00:27:05,980 --> 00:27:09,340
What did you say about So OK, so
there's a difficulty to try and

473
00:27:09,340 --> 00:27:11,340
define these terms.
I mean, consciousness, the mind

474
00:27:11,340 --> 00:27:13,100
body problem, It's a very
difficult concept.

475
00:27:13,300 --> 00:27:15,460
The hard problem of
consciousness, as David, David

476
00:27:15,460 --> 00:27:17,500
Thomas put it.
What about those who take

477
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:20,060
consciousness to be fundamental
in terms of what we were just

478
00:27:20,060 --> 00:27:22,540
discussing as reality, so sort
of an idealist perspective.

479
00:27:22,540 --> 00:27:24,300
Do you think they're also going
down the wrong path?

480
00:27:25,220 --> 00:27:29,380
Well, idealism, officially
idealism in the history of

481
00:27:29,460 --> 00:27:32,180
Western philosophy, is
associated with a very specific

482
00:27:32,180 --> 00:27:35,220
position which says all that
ultimately exists are minds in

483
00:27:35,220 --> 00:27:38,180
their contents.
I think that's crazy.

484
00:27:38,180 --> 00:27:40,500
I think that's insane.
I think there was a universe

485
00:27:40,540 --> 00:27:43,340
after The Big Bang that didn't
contain any minds or any

486
00:27:43,340 --> 00:27:45,940
contents, and it was there and
it was because it was there that

487
00:27:46,260 --> 00:27:49,940
eventually, for reasons I don't
understand, eventually minds

488
00:27:49,940 --> 00:27:52,020
with their contents evolved out
of it.

489
00:27:54,140 --> 00:27:58,420
So that that strikes me as just
just just, I mean, I would have

490
00:27:58,420 --> 00:28:00,660
to give up on physics to believe
that.

491
00:28:01,420 --> 00:28:06,340
And I think physics is on a much
better epistemic standing than a

492
00:28:06,340 --> 00:28:10,340
proposal like that.
I mean, look at what happened to

493
00:28:10,340 --> 00:28:14,020
the idealist like Barkley.
They it was literally Dave's Ex

494
00:28:14,020 --> 00:28:17,740
Machina right when you tried to
or or or Leibnitz and

495
00:28:17,740 --> 00:28:20,860
preestablished harmony and
Monadology, I mean literally.

496
00:28:20,860 --> 00:28:25,320
They had to appeal to God could
be doing all this stuff with the

497
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,520
minds.
Cuz they didn't go physical

498
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,120
world.
They were trying to get the

499
00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:31,560
physical world out of the minds
rather than the minds out of the

500
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:36,160
physical world appeal to God.
To me this is not interesting.

501
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,280
This is now just giving up.
Yes, I mean you mentioned

502
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:45,160
something earlier with regards
to with quantum mechanics and

503
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,420
trying to discuss physics.
And the mind?

504
00:28:49,700 --> 00:28:52,060
It often leads us to quantum
mechanics and trying to think

505
00:28:52,060 --> 00:28:53,860
about certain things like the
observer effect.

506
00:28:54,060 --> 00:28:57,740
What I've noticed quite often is
because this podcast focuses on

507
00:28:57,740 --> 00:28:59,780
the nature of reality,
consciousness, the mind body

508
00:28:59,780 --> 00:29:02,020
problem, etc.
You get a lot of experts from

509
00:29:02,020 --> 00:29:05,380
different fields who are in a
specific field and view all

510
00:29:05,380 --> 00:29:08,460
these theories very differently.
So let's say you get someone

511
00:29:08,460 --> 00:29:10,380
who's a psychiatrist watching
this episode.

512
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,960
And us talking about physics,
quantum physics, etc.

513
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:15,800
There's often these
misunderstandings regarding

514
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,360
certain concepts.
So the one big one I've noticed,

515
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,360
and a lot of people in the
comment sections tend to do

516
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,760
this, is talking about the
observer effect.

517
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,440
A lot of people tend to think
that you need some sort of a

518
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,200
conscious human observer to
discuss this concept.

519
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,840
I want to know, from your
perspective, how does this

520
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,400
observer effect get
misinterpreted by the layman or

521
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,880
by anyone who's a specialist in
another field that specifically

522
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,850
talks about minds?
From your I mean let me at least

523
00:29:42,850 --> 00:29:48,130
talk about and one thing, an
example of what some people mean

524
00:29:48,130 --> 00:29:50,650
by an observer effect.
This so-called Xeno effect in

525
00:29:50,650 --> 00:29:56,170
quantum mechanics and the Xeno
effect it has to do with.

526
00:29:56,170 --> 00:30:02,170
Suppose I have a system and I
know how it would evolve if left

527
00:30:02,170 --> 00:30:05,650
on its own.
I know it's free evolution, but

528
00:30:05,650 --> 00:30:08,280
I don't allow it to evolve on
its own.

529
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:13,240
I interact with it or I set up
some other system that's going

530
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,200
to be interacting with it and
maybe doing something that we

531
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,800
call normally doing the
measurement.

532
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,600
Will that first question, will
that have any influence on my

533
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,400
system?
Well, sure it will, right?

534
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,360
I mean, it would be the weirdest
thing in the world if you could,

535
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,660
if you could do something you
called a measurement and not

536
00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:38,420
physically interact with this
thing.

537
00:30:39,420 --> 00:30:41,820
I mean, you can kind of do that
in a way you wouldn't expect in

538
00:30:41,820 --> 00:30:43,580
quantum mechanics.
This is what surprises people.

539
00:30:43,580 --> 00:30:48,340
People always think, oh, quantum
mechanics makes in classical

540
00:30:48,340 --> 00:30:51,500
mechanics, observations just can
have no effect at all.

541
00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:53,300
And in quantum mechanics they
must actually, it's just the

542
00:30:53,300 --> 00:30:56,210
other way around.
So there's this helizer Vibeman

543
00:30:56,210 --> 00:30:58,730
bomb problem that illustrates
how you can make what are called

544
00:30:58,730 --> 00:31:01,130
interaction free measurements in
quantum mechanics that you

545
00:31:01,130 --> 00:31:02,490
couldn't do in classical
mechanics.

546
00:31:02,490 --> 00:31:04,810
But let's we can get into that
if you want to later.

547
00:31:05,210 --> 00:31:07,490
Let's leave that aside.
Just intuitively you'd think,

548
00:31:07,530 --> 00:31:10,650
wait, I'm interacting this thing
with another system, Of course

549
00:31:10,650 --> 00:31:14,930
it's going to affect it.
How is it going to affect it?

550
00:31:14,930 --> 00:31:18,290
Well, that depends upon a close
physical analysis of that

551
00:31:18,290 --> 00:31:24,310
interaction and and sometimes
the effect will be quite

552
00:31:24,310 --> 00:31:27,750
dramatic.
In the socalled Xeno effect, you

553
00:31:27,790 --> 00:31:31,070
you're, as it were, continuously
monitoring a system for

554
00:31:31,070 --> 00:31:36,230
something and because you're
continuously monitoring it, you

555
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:38,310
freeze it.
Whereas if you're if you weren't

556
00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:40,150
monitoring it, it would evolve
in a certain way.

557
00:31:40,150 --> 00:31:42,590
You could sort of think of as an
arrow that's rotating and the

558
00:31:42,590 --> 00:31:44,150
free evolution is just to do
this.

559
00:31:44,430 --> 00:31:47,350
But as you keep monitoring it,
you kind of keep kicking it back

560
00:31:47,890 --> 00:31:50,490
to to its original position so
it it freezes, right.

561
00:31:50,490 --> 00:31:52,170
This is why it's called the Xeno
effect, right?

562
00:31:52,170 --> 00:31:55,250
The most that this evolution
goes away is that

563
00:31:55,250 --> 00:31:56,770
comprehensible?
Sure.

564
00:31:57,810 --> 00:32:00,970
It's though you you understand
that by just understanding the

565
00:32:00,970 --> 00:32:03,650
nature of this interaction.
Now, does that have anything to

566
00:32:03,650 --> 00:32:05,250
do with consciousness?
Not a thing.

567
00:32:05,810 --> 00:32:09,010
Because what you're doing is
you're modeling your original

568
00:32:09,010 --> 00:32:11,170
system is a physical system,
you're monitoring your

569
00:32:11,170 --> 00:32:13,050
monitoring system is a physical
system.

570
00:32:13,050 --> 00:32:15,730
And you're and you're modeling
the interaction, the physical

571
00:32:15,730 --> 00:32:20,000
interaction between them, that
can be, that doesn't require any

572
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,120
of them be conscious.
It doesn't require that this

573
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,840
thing be a measurement.
It doesn't require that it be an

574
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,520
observation.
It's just an interaction, right,

575
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,240
Just a physical interaction,
which if you have the physics,

576
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,200
that's up to it.
The physics can, can you know,

577
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,560
account for what that
interaction and the effects that

578
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,560
it will have.
Now people often say, as I said,

579
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,500
oh, but in classical physics you
can measure things and not

580
00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:47,540
affect them at all.
And I, I I've never got an

581
00:32:47,540 --> 00:32:49,780
answer to what classical physics
they're talking about.

582
00:32:50,660 --> 00:32:51,820
I don't even know what they
mean.

583
00:32:52,300 --> 00:32:54,980
What why think that in Newtonian
mechanics you can measure

584
00:32:54,980 --> 00:32:56,860
something and not have an effect
on the system.

585
00:32:57,380 --> 00:32:59,660
I mean, you you measure
something, you interact with it.

586
00:32:59,660 --> 00:33:01,900
There are forces, there's the
action and reaction.

587
00:33:03,660 --> 00:33:06,700
Of course, if you, if you do
something as simple, let me, you

588
00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:08,540
know a simple example, everybody
will understand.

589
00:33:08,820 --> 00:33:10,460
I have a glass of water in front
of me.

590
00:33:10,460 --> 00:33:12,880
I want to know what temperature
is okay.

591
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,720
So I take a thermometer and I
stick it in and I wait for the

592
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,280
thermometer to equilibrate right
it go.

593
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,560
You know the mercury goes up and
eventually it stops and that

594
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:22,680
gives me a number.
Good.

595
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,840
Is that number the temperature
of the water when I put the

596
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,320
thermometer in?
No it isn't.

597
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,160
Why not?
Because some of because there

598
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,360
was an interaction between the
thermometer and the water.

599
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,880
Typically the thermometer is
colder than the water and

600
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,800
therefore the the temperature it
arrives at is going to be a bit

601
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,800
lower than the temperature the
water was.

602
00:33:42,140 --> 00:33:45,780
Now of course if I'm very clever
I can because the the the the

603
00:33:45,780 --> 00:33:48,300
thermometer is self measuring.
I can know what its original

604
00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:50,740
temperature was and then I can
account for that and say gosh,

605
00:33:51,020 --> 00:33:53,700
before I put the thermometer in,
this is what the temperature

606
00:33:53,700 --> 00:33:56,580
was.
I could be really clever but but

607
00:33:56,580 --> 00:33:59,300
to do the experiment, of course
there's an interaction, of

608
00:33:59,300 --> 00:34:03,100
course it affects the object and
you know, classically of course

609
00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:05,420
it does.
As I say, it's just the

610
00:34:05,420 --> 00:34:07,220
opposite.
Quantum mechanically, I can do

611
00:34:07,220 --> 00:34:11,810
really clever things that can at
least have a chance of giving

612
00:34:11,810 --> 00:34:13,010
me.
I mean, you have to be careful

613
00:34:13,010 --> 00:34:15,010
here.
They have a chance of giving me

614
00:34:15,010 --> 00:34:17,929
information about a system
without apparently interacting

615
00:34:17,929 --> 00:34:21,170
with it at all, or changing its
physical structure at all.

616
00:34:21,530 --> 00:34:24,850
Which you wouldn't expect to be
possible, but is allowable in

617
00:34:24,850 --> 00:34:28,290
quantum mechanics and very
cleverly designed situations.

618
00:34:29,530 --> 00:34:32,850
Another thing I keep saying is
this temporal aspect of it all.

619
00:34:33,090 --> 00:34:35,719
If you take.
If you take into account if

620
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,600
you're looking at a particle
they'd say by a telescope that

621
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,520
has microscopic features and
you're able to see on a quantum

622
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,320
scale or measure something
that's far away, are you

623
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,440
technically defined as some sort
of a time traveling entity?

624
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,409
This is something I often see.
I mean I would say anyone who

625
00:34:52,409 --> 00:34:54,810
says yes to that doesn't
understand what a time

626
00:34:54,850 --> 00:34:58,050
travelling is.
I mean, you know, this is the

627
00:34:58,050 --> 00:35:00,930
most trivial thing in the world.
Of course you look up in the

628
00:35:00,930 --> 00:35:04,050
sky, it takes, you know what
you're reacting to is the light

629
00:35:04,050 --> 00:35:07,570
that's hitting your retina.
And that light was traveling

630
00:35:07,570 --> 00:35:11,930
through space for quite a while
and the things you're seeing are

631
00:35:11,930 --> 00:35:16,250
not happening now you're
everybody understands that kind

632
00:35:16,250 --> 00:35:18,290
of trivially.
It's very easy.

633
00:35:18,570 --> 00:35:21,410
There's a there's a very funny.
I mean I I just have to mention

634
00:35:21,410 --> 00:35:25,650
this because it's very humorous.
There's a very funny passage in

635
00:35:27,210 --> 00:35:32,810
in a book by Glenn O'Connor, and
he's he, he has this character

636
00:35:32,810 --> 00:35:34,850
who's kind of a crackpot
physicist.

637
00:35:35,570 --> 00:35:40,410
And he says, Oh, well, you see,
if I look at myself in a mirror,

638
00:35:41,210 --> 00:35:43,050
I'm not seeing myself as I am
now.

639
00:35:43,050 --> 00:35:48,030
I'm seeing as I was a little bit
before because of the time it

640
00:35:48,030 --> 00:35:50,310
took the light to get from my
face to the mirror, bounce off

641
00:35:50,310 --> 00:35:52,230
the beer and get into my eye.
He's talking to somebody says,

642
00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:55,150
yeah, of course, but that's, you
know, a trivial amount of time,

643
00:35:55,150 --> 00:35:57,550
Why do you care?
And he said, well you see I set

644
00:35:57,550 --> 00:35:59,470
up this situation with a pair of
mirrors.

645
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:04,800
So I have this infinite corridor
might be all of the spec and and

646
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,760
and then I got a telescope and
and and I I started looking and

647
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,440
I got younger and younger and
younger and I followed this all

648
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,760
the way back to where I was a a
beardless youth and I would have

649
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,600
continued it on into into utero
but the curvature of the earth

650
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,800
got in the way.
Anyone say no, no, this is

651
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,160
really you're not understanding
what's going on here.

652
00:36:26,690 --> 00:36:29,370
I think I've heard that that is
kind of funny story what I was

653
00:36:29,370 --> 00:36:31,250
specifically trying to ask.
Sorry, I don't think I phrased

654
00:36:31,250 --> 00:36:34,130
it correctly, but what about
that measurement component I'm

655
00:36:34,130 --> 00:36:36,130
talking about?
So where you do affect the

656
00:36:36,130 --> 00:36:39,050
particle at that point, you
consider it to be someone who's

657
00:36:39,250 --> 00:36:42,250
not only traveled in time
technically, but also affected A

658
00:36:42,250 --> 00:36:44,290
particle by measuring it in a
sense.

659
00:36:44,780 --> 00:36:47,580
Is that again?
I mean, I don't know who's who,

660
00:36:47,580 --> 00:36:51,460
who would, who would say
something like this, A photon.

661
00:36:51,460 --> 00:36:53,900
I mean, just leave the details
aside.

662
00:36:53,980 --> 00:36:56,940
The photon comes into my eye.
It sets off of, you know,

663
00:36:57,060 --> 00:37:01,180
something in my retina.
Of course, that interaction with

664
00:37:01,180 --> 00:37:04,700
my retina really massively has
affected the photon.

665
00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:07,100
In fact, it's gotten absorbed.
It doesn't even exist anymore.

666
00:37:08,980 --> 00:37:11,620
That's happening now.
That's not happening a long time

667
00:37:11,620 --> 00:37:13,420
ago.
Even if the photon is carrying

668
00:37:13,420 --> 00:37:17,940
information about things that
happened a long time ago, it

669
00:37:17,940 --> 00:37:22,260
going into my eye is is not
anything happening in the past.

670
00:37:22,260 --> 00:37:24,940
It going into my eye and being
processed by my eye is something

671
00:37:24,940 --> 00:37:28,940
that's happening now.
So you know if there is anybody

672
00:37:28,940 --> 00:37:31,100
and I'm not making this
accusation because I haven't

673
00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:33,220
heard anybody say anything quite
that silly.

674
00:37:33,220 --> 00:37:37,180
But this is silly.
I mean you know this is this is

675
00:37:37,180 --> 00:37:40,420
not taken a PhD in physics
right?

676
00:37:40,860 --> 00:37:44,530
To understand that that that
line of reasoning really doesn't

677
00:37:44,570 --> 00:37:47,050
hold up to scrutiny.
The the reason why I'm bringing

678
00:37:47,050 --> 00:37:50,010
this up is because I think that
with the with the observer

679
00:37:50,010 --> 00:37:52,290
effect in mind, and I mean those
measurements, how they affect

680
00:37:52,290 --> 00:37:54,930
reality and vice versa.
I think that once quantum

681
00:37:54,930 --> 00:37:59,130
mechanics grew out of the field
of physics, it made it a lot

682
00:37:59,170 --> 00:38:03,570
easier for people to make sort
of wacky theories regarding

683
00:38:03,570 --> 00:38:05,690
reality.
And my biggest concern with that

684
00:38:05,690 --> 00:38:08,610
is that it's almost so
relativist that you can't really

685
00:38:08,610 --> 00:38:12,430
now have discussions.
In a reasonable manner, because

686
00:38:12,430 --> 00:38:14,990
so many theories can be so
outrageous to a point where you

687
00:38:14,990 --> 00:38:19,350
can't really disprove it.
Yeah, well, I mean some of them.

688
00:38:19,630 --> 00:38:22,070
I mean, I think you could just.
I think this idea.

689
00:38:23,070 --> 00:38:26,190
But anyway, I mean, how did we
get into this situation?

690
00:38:26,190 --> 00:38:29,190
Again, this is this peculiarity
of quantum mechanics that

691
00:38:32,110 --> 00:38:35,390
although it didn't have to be.
When quantum mechanics was first

692
00:38:35,390 --> 00:38:40,260
kind of formalized in the
Copenhagen spirit and and and

693
00:38:40,260 --> 00:38:48,420
especially by by von Neumann in
literally writing down the

694
00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:52,020
fundamental postulates of the
theory, the term measurement

695
00:38:52,020 --> 00:38:56,700
came and this was this was
already a big mistake.

696
00:38:56,700 --> 00:39:01,140
And this is John Bell's paper
against quote measurement is the

697
00:39:01,660 --> 00:39:06,210
locust classicus for saying why
this is a mistake.

698
00:39:07,010 --> 00:39:09,210
And it's basically because what
do you mean by a measurement?

699
00:39:09,210 --> 00:39:11,410
I mean, is every interaction A
measurement?

700
00:39:11,610 --> 00:39:16,130
If not, what does it take?
Now you don't in normal everyday

701
00:39:16,130 --> 00:39:18,570
life or normal physics.
In classical physics you never

702
00:39:18,570 --> 00:39:21,250
had to answer a question like
that because whether you

703
00:39:21,250 --> 00:39:25,290
categorized an interaction as a
measurement or not was not

704
00:39:25,290 --> 00:39:26,930
important for applying the
physics.

705
00:39:26,930 --> 00:39:31,570
The physics was just Newton's
equations and some force laws,

706
00:39:32,650 --> 00:39:35,970
and you can apply that without
deciding whether this thing

707
00:39:35,970 --> 00:39:38,570
bumping into that thing
constitutes A measurement.

708
00:39:39,650 --> 00:39:44,330
And Einstein recognizes, right?
Einstein famously said it's the

709
00:39:44,330 --> 00:39:47,010
theory that tells you what you
can observe, which means you

710
00:39:47,010 --> 00:39:49,930
don't have to 1st decide what
you can observe and then build

711
00:39:49,930 --> 00:39:51,330
the theory.
It's the other way around.

712
00:39:51,330 --> 00:39:54,930
You build the theory and use the
theory to analyze interactions,

713
00:39:54,930 --> 00:39:57,970
and then you can decide which
interactions are measurement

714
00:39:57,970 --> 00:40:01,530
like in the sense of providing
you information about about an

715
00:40:01,530 --> 00:40:05,270
object.
But what Bell complained about,

716
00:40:05,270 --> 00:40:07,830
he said the word measurement
just shouldn't appear in the

717
00:40:07,830 --> 00:40:11,750
foundational statement of any
fundamental theory.

718
00:40:11,750 --> 00:40:13,230
And I think he's absolutely
right.

719
00:40:13,950 --> 00:40:17,590
If you do that, if you make that
mistake, then of course it

720
00:40:17,590 --> 00:40:20,710
becomes a first order question.
What constitutes A measurement?

721
00:40:20,790 --> 00:40:21,910
And then you've got all this
stuff.

722
00:40:21,950 --> 00:40:23,270
Oh, you have to have an
observer.

723
00:40:23,350 --> 00:40:24,750
The observer has to be
conscious.

724
00:40:24,870 --> 00:40:27,790
That leads you into Vigner and
that kind of leads you toward

725
00:40:27,790 --> 00:40:30,750
the direction of idealism and
blah blah, blah.

726
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:32,960
But that was just, that was just
crazy.

727
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,640
I mean, you know, nobody ever
should have taken that.

728
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,680
And Einstein didn't take it
seriously.

729
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,000
I mean, that was his.
You know, can a mouse, You know,

730
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,320
can a mouse do this right?
Is this this amazing thing that

731
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,200
you're having to postulate?
Can it observe?

732
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,560
Is it an observer?
Is it amoeba, an observer?

733
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:54,080
I mean it is, you know, does a
does a piece of does a piece of

734
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:59,360
iron observe the amount of of
water in the atmosphere around

735
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,430
it?
By rusting, I mean you know,

736
00:41:01,910 --> 00:41:05,310
rusting is a physical
interaction and it provides

737
00:41:05,310 --> 00:41:07,270
information, there's no
question.

738
00:41:07,430 --> 00:41:11,510
By looking at the amount of rust
on a piece of iron, you can gain

739
00:41:11,510 --> 00:41:15,950
information about how much water
there was in the atmosphere.

740
00:41:16,950 --> 00:41:18,870
Is that a measurement?
Is that an observation?

741
00:41:18,870 --> 00:41:20,790
Is the piece of iron and
observer?

742
00:41:21,110 --> 00:41:23,510
Is it a measuring device?
I mean these are just silly

743
00:41:23,510 --> 00:41:27,600
questions.
You know, it it does sort of

744
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,240
blur the line when when people,
especially if somebody doesn't

745
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:33,080
come into the conversation with
the background in physics, I

746
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,720
mean, it becomes very easy to
assume that then consciousness

747
00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:38,320
becomes this interacting
phenomenon that.

748
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:40,160
And this takes you back.
Yeah, that directly.

749
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,480
I mean, look, this is the kind
of thing I'll just mention this

750
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:44,960
from the history of philosophy.
Yeah.

751
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,920
Descartes took very seriously
some things we were talking

752
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:51,680
about here.
He took very seriously that

753
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,160
there is a strict distinction
between the material and the

754
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:58,700
immaterial, and among the
immaterial things were souls

755
00:41:59,740 --> 00:42:04,300
that humans had.
And weirdly enough, he didn't

756
00:42:04,300 --> 00:42:06,100
think dogs have, which I
thought.

757
00:42:07,300 --> 00:42:10,340
I mean, either he was just a
very nasty person, or he didn't

758
00:42:10,340 --> 00:42:15,380
need a dog anyway and he he was
a real interaction at strike

759
00:42:15,380 --> 00:42:17,380
that somehow.
And this was again God.

760
00:42:17,380 --> 00:42:22,600
If you ask how well God decides,
certain events in your body

761
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,520
affect your soul and certain
decisions in your soul can

762
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,120
affect your body.
And then he was stuck with this

763
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:29,600
question.
It's a good question from his

764
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,200
point of view, but where does
that happen?

765
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,440
And you know, by God he came out
in the middle of the pineal

766
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,560
gland.
I mean, go if if if you had a

767
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,960
microscope and you could go and,
you know, look inside the head

768
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,760
of a living human being, you
would find the normal laws of

769
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,240
physics breakdown at a certain
place where where, you know,

770
00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:52,950
someone's mind has jumped in and
decided, no, you, you particles

771
00:42:52,950 --> 00:42:55,230
go this way rather than that way
because I've just decided to

772
00:42:55,230 --> 00:42:57,710
raise my hand, Okay, that's a
theory.

773
00:42:57,790 --> 00:43:01,350
It's kind of lunatic, right?
I mean, nobody nowadays would

774
00:43:01,350 --> 00:43:02,990
take a theory like that
seriously.

775
00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:08,550
I mean, it's just crazy, isn't?
It it's kind of like you can you

776
00:43:08,550 --> 00:43:12,230
can talk about that stuff, but
then have the courage to really,

777
00:43:12,230 --> 00:43:15,030
really seriously work out the
consequences.

778
00:43:15,030 --> 00:43:17,390
And I think when you do, you'll
find the consequences are so

779
00:43:17,390 --> 00:43:20,830
lunatic that you're gonna go
look for some other way to deal

780
00:43:20,830 --> 00:43:23,590
with these problems.
It's similar to, I think, the

781
00:43:23,590 --> 00:43:26,030
approach that Francis Crick and
Christophe Cock took with

782
00:43:26,030 --> 00:43:29,390
physics, trying to apply it to
consciousness and then taking

783
00:43:29,390 --> 00:43:32,430
the closed room as that basic
pineal gland in a sense.

784
00:43:32,430 --> 00:43:35,350
Do you do you think that
approach is just, I I mean I

785
00:43:35,350 --> 00:43:38,870
give this a bit of this comes up
in this microtubule stuff that's

786
00:43:38,910 --> 00:43:42,910
associated with with Roger
Penrose and so on I, I, I, I, I.

787
00:43:43,190 --> 00:43:48,240
Thought on that I find that has
I, I first of all like everybody

788
00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:51,680
else who knows a little physics
but not a lot of of

789
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,920
neurobiology.
I can't believe that

790
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,920
microtubules in the in the
physical circumstance they're

791
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,800
sitting in do much in the way of
keeping coherent quantum

792
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,080
superpositions going because
they're they're going to.

793
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,240
There's just too much noise and
it's not going to work even if

794
00:44:07,240 --> 00:44:12,290
it did.
The idea that somehow just

795
00:44:12,290 --> 00:44:15,450
because you've got really
fundamental quantum effects that

796
00:44:15,450 --> 00:44:17,130
that has anything to do with
consciousness.

797
00:44:17,130 --> 00:44:19,730
I mean you have fundamental
quantum effects in the two slid

798
00:44:19,730 --> 00:44:21,530
interference.
If you're going to tell me that

799
00:44:21,530 --> 00:44:23,570
tells that tells me that
electrons are conscious.

800
00:44:23,570 --> 00:44:25,690
Again, I'm going to say you've
gone way off the rails there,

801
00:44:26,570 --> 00:44:30,090
right?
I mean if I if you believe an

802
00:44:30,090 --> 00:44:32,690
individual electron is
conscious, I think you're so far

803
00:44:32,690 --> 00:44:35,530
beyond it.
Any connection to what's

804
00:44:35,530 --> 00:44:40,300
plausible that what you're doing
can't make any contact.

805
00:44:40,300 --> 00:44:43,500
Anything I would take seriously.
Of course electrons aren't

806
00:44:43,500 --> 00:44:45,220
conscious.
Single electron.

807
00:44:45,260 --> 00:44:48,140
I mean, you gotta be kidding.
The little we know about

808
00:44:48,140 --> 00:44:51,140
consciousness is it is something
to do with very complex neural

809
00:44:51,140 --> 00:44:54,300
structure.
With regards to your intuition

810
00:44:54,300 --> 00:44:56,860
regarding consciousness, I know
you said that you you're able to

811
00:44:56,860 --> 00:44:59,820
talk about the flaws of the
other theories, for example

812
00:44:59,820 --> 00:45:02,140
computing consciousness
computational models.

813
00:45:02,140 --> 00:45:05,420
Talk to me about that and and
why you believe it's so

814
00:45:05,420 --> 00:45:08,400
incorrect.
Oh well, that that that's just,

815
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,560
I mean I would say, I mean
theorem is is a hard thing to

816
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,520
throw around here but as near a
theorem as you're going to get

817
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,640
in the area.
So people ask this question,

818
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,880
it's a good question.
What distinguishes conscious

819
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:27,320
from unconscious systems And a
proposal had to do with what

820
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,520
kind of computation the system
is doing that there is it going

821
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:36,760
to be a computational definition
the systems doing this kind of

822
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:43,240
computation on this kind of data
or conscious and you know other

823
00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:46,280
ones aren't something like that.
So there's a proposal.

824
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,440
It says I'm going to get try to
get at the essence of

825
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,760
consciousness via the theory of
computation.

826
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:52,520
What do you mean the theory of
computation?

827
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,120
Well, what you mean or what
people you know it was Turing's

828
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,040
theory of computation.
This is what we have.

829
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,160
Turing machines.
Turing, you know, and and it's

830
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,960
true.
Once you have a physical item

831
00:46:04,750 --> 00:46:07,630
and you identify it or
categorize it as a Turing

832
00:46:07,630 --> 00:46:10,150
machine which means you have to
do a bunch of stuff, you have to

833
00:46:10,150 --> 00:46:11,870
say okay here, it's internal
states.

834
00:46:12,110 --> 00:46:15,510
Here's the memory.
Now by analysis this is how the,

835
00:46:15,550 --> 00:46:19,390
you know how the internal states
shift on the on on on the memory

836
00:46:19,390 --> 00:46:21,070
and what they do to the memory.
And there's all this kind of

837
00:46:21,390 --> 00:46:25,190
fancy but very precise
mathematical definition of what

838
00:46:25,190 --> 00:46:29,030
a Turing machine is, what its
program is, blah blah blah,

839
00:46:29,390 --> 00:46:32,790
Okay.
Now, if you look at what it

840
00:46:32,790 --> 00:46:39,310
takes for a physical item to
count as a Turing machine, you

841
00:46:39,310 --> 00:46:47,390
find the following curiosity,
which is that almost all of what

842
00:46:47,670 --> 00:46:52,790
determines what program a Turing
machine is running are claims

843
00:46:52,790 --> 00:46:56,030
not about what it actually does,
but about what it would do.

844
00:46:56,750 --> 00:46:58,790
They're counterfactual claims,
right?

845
00:46:58,790 --> 00:47:04,430
So in fact there was a one in
this register in the memory and

846
00:47:04,430 --> 00:47:07,110
the thing went into this state.
But in order to be running this

847
00:47:07,110 --> 00:47:11,070
Turing program, it has to be the
case that had it been a 0

848
00:47:11,070 --> 00:47:14,550
instead of A1, it would have
gone into that other state,

849
00:47:15,030 --> 00:47:17,790
right?
So this is just the way a Turing

850
00:47:17,790 --> 00:47:20,870
program is defined.
Then it turns out, and this is

851
00:47:20,870 --> 00:47:23,110
what I show, this is an old
paper called Computation and

852
00:47:23,110 --> 00:47:24,990
Consciousness, the 1st paper I
ever published.

853
00:47:24,990 --> 00:47:28,470
As a matter of fact, it turns
out that physically it's

854
00:47:28,470 --> 00:47:35,430
possible to implement a Turing
program, a Turing in a way that,

855
00:47:35,510 --> 00:47:40,070
as it were, all of the there's
what it actually does, and then

856
00:47:40,070 --> 00:47:41,950
there's all these
counterfactuals, and the

857
00:47:41,950 --> 00:47:45,590
counterfactual supporting part
of the machine can all get kind

858
00:47:45,590 --> 00:47:51,150
of shunted over to one side
where on this actual run, it

859
00:47:51,150 --> 00:47:53,630
doesn't do anything.
I mean it's just literally,

860
00:47:54,030 --> 00:47:58,880
physically completely static.
It's it's important that it's

861
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,040
there because it's it's presence
there.

862
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,200
This piece is presence there is
what makes these counterfactuals

863
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,960
true about what would have
happened if things if the tape

864
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,200
had been different, right?
But it's not actually doing

865
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,720
anything in in this particular
room.

866
00:48:15,720 --> 00:48:18,880
I see.
And then the claim is, look,

867
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:24,920
the, the, the, the, the, the.
The claim I find unescapable is

868
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:30,190
that the conscious state
supervenes on physical activity,

869
00:48:30,470 --> 00:48:35,070
on the activity that's going on.
But if that's true, then the

870
00:48:35,070 --> 00:48:38,070
presence or absence of this
other piece that's not

871
00:48:38,070 --> 00:48:43,550
physically active is irrelevant.
So I can just lop it off, but if

872
00:48:43,550 --> 00:48:46,110
I lop it off, then it's no
longer running the same touring

873
00:48:46,110 --> 00:48:48,950
program.
In fact, it's not running any

874
00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:50,430
interesting touring program at
all.

875
00:48:51,550 --> 00:48:55,420
So, you know, if you just
believe that your present

876
00:48:55,420 --> 00:48:58,780
conscious state is determined by
the present activity in your

877
00:48:58,780 --> 00:49:04,260
brain, then it seems to me this
particular way of understanding

878
00:49:04,260 --> 00:49:07,380
a computational theory of
consciousness cannot be correct.

879
00:49:07,500 --> 00:49:09,220
This is the burden of that
argument.

880
00:49:09,500 --> 00:49:12,820
I stand by it to this day.
I I whenever I go back and

881
00:49:12,820 --> 00:49:14,420
review that argument, I think,
yeah, that's right.

882
00:49:14,740 --> 00:49:18,700
Yeah, have you have you heard of
Steven Grosberg's Adapt Adaptive

883
00:49:18,700 --> 00:49:23,180
Resonance Theory?
It's very intriguing.

884
00:49:23,220 --> 00:49:27,380
He works at Boston University
and many years ago, I mean he's

885
00:49:27,380 --> 00:49:33,700
made this theory 1950s, I'm not
even sure, but talks about us

886
00:49:33,700 --> 00:49:37,780
often mistaking things,
conscious things, sorry,

887
00:49:37,780 --> 00:49:41,300
conscious activity for things.
And that's the biggest problem

888
00:49:41,300 --> 00:49:43,380
we make is that it's all dynamic
system.

889
00:49:43,380 --> 00:49:46,340
So you use dynamics within
mathematics to sort of define

890
00:49:46,340 --> 00:49:47,740
this.
And our biggest mistake is

891
00:49:47,740 --> 00:49:50,970
actually.
Reducing these activities into

892
00:49:50,970 --> 00:49:52,570
things, Cuz you can't really
think of it that way.

893
00:49:52,570 --> 00:49:55,410
Do you think that you're?
Yeah, look, I mean, if I

894
00:49:55,410 --> 00:49:59,330
understand the suggestion, that
seems right.

895
00:49:59,330 --> 00:50:03,370
I mean consciousness.
I mean, there's a Buckminster

896
00:50:03,370 --> 00:50:05,730
Fuller had a book or a poem or
something.

897
00:50:05,730 --> 00:50:07,450
The title was I seem to be a
verb.

898
00:50:08,670 --> 00:50:12,350
And, you know, his point was
just that I I use a lot of

899
00:50:12,350 --> 00:50:15,470
downish kind of language to talk
about myself.

900
00:50:15,470 --> 00:50:17,590
But what I really am is an
activity, right?

901
00:50:17,590 --> 00:50:21,270
I'm an ongoing process that that
seems right to me.

902
00:50:21,550 --> 00:50:23,310
I certainly think consciousness
is a process.

903
00:50:23,310 --> 00:50:26,590
Sure.
I don't think a dramatic thing

904
00:50:27,310 --> 00:50:30,830
that's unchanging, physically
unchanging through time, can be

905
00:50:30,830 --> 00:50:32,990
conscious.
How could it be?

906
00:50:33,850 --> 00:50:38,570
That's so sure.
And insofar as people are making

907
00:50:38,570 --> 00:50:44,490
that mistake of calling
processes by words that suggest

908
00:50:44,490 --> 00:50:47,690
they're not processes but
something else that could be

909
00:50:47,690 --> 00:50:51,450
misleading.
I don't think noticing that

910
00:50:51,450 --> 00:50:55,760
mistake is then gonna lead me to
what I would consider to be a an

911
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:57,680
acceptable theory of
consciousness for because I

912
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,120
think the the problems
confronting that are just much

913
00:51:00,240 --> 00:51:02,120
better than that.
But that would be if that would

914
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:03,640
lead people in the wrong
direction.

915
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:07,800
Sure.
Is a pain a thing, while a pain

916
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,520
is a is is an event or an
activity or process or

917
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:12,320
something.
It goes has to go on through

918
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:16,400
time and it's, you know.
So to think of it as a thing on

919
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,000
the on the model of a rock,
yeah, you're going to be awfully

920
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:21,760
confused if you think they're
like that.

921
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:23,910
No, they're not like that.
Do you think we're able to

922
00:51:23,910 --> 00:51:26,830
replicate this activity?
We can sort of create artificial

923
00:51:26,830 --> 00:51:30,790
and consciousness, of course.
I mean, again, to me this is

924
00:51:30,790 --> 00:51:33,030
trivial.
There's not nothing that would

925
00:51:33,030 --> 00:51:37,630
stand in the way of us
artificially creating a brain

926
00:51:38,870 --> 00:51:42,670
like mine or like yours.
And because it's like mine or

927
00:51:42,670 --> 00:51:45,390
like yours, because I know I'm
conscious and I sure believe

928
00:51:45,390 --> 00:51:49,650
you're conscious, I think such
an artificially created brain,

929
00:51:49,650 --> 00:51:52,490
But I mean a brain with neurons
and axons and stuff like that,

930
00:51:52,490 --> 00:51:57,530
nothing, nothing is preventing
us to artificially create that.

931
00:51:57,890 --> 00:52:00,690
Now the problem is when people
say, oh, but by an artificial

932
00:52:00,690 --> 00:52:03,450
brain, I mean, you know, a big
computer thing with a bunch of

933
00:52:03,570 --> 00:52:07,250
tape decks and this and that.
I don't know whether a thing

934
00:52:07,250 --> 00:52:10,210
made of tape decks can be
conscious, right?

935
00:52:10,210 --> 00:52:12,210
I don't know whether something
made of silicon can be

936
00:52:12,210 --> 00:52:13,090
conscious.
Why?

937
00:52:13,090 --> 00:52:15,810
Because the only things I know,
the only thing I know for

938
00:52:15,810 --> 00:52:17,570
absolute sure is conscious is
me.

939
00:52:17,570 --> 00:52:21,020
And then any normal right?
Unless you're crazy, you think

940
00:52:21,660 --> 00:52:24,780
other human beings and dog.
Again, if you've ever interacted

941
00:52:24,780 --> 00:52:26,700
with a dog and you don't think
it's conscious, I don't know

942
00:52:26,860 --> 00:52:29,420
what's wrong with you.
But there are lots of

943
00:52:29,580 --> 00:52:33,860
biosimilarities between dog
brains and human brains, right?

944
00:52:35,980 --> 00:52:38,780
You know, you get down to things
like lobsters and I don't know,

945
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:40,800
right.
I just don't know.

946
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,920
And it it it upsets me that I
don't know for reasons that, you

947
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,280
know, you don't want to torture
lobsters if you know, you get.

948
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,680
I mean, there's a hypothesis,
which is that when you throw a

949
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:53,360
lobster in a pot of boiling
water, it it, it makes a high

950
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,520
pitched sound and waves around
and you think, Oh my God, it's

951
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,600
like I dip my hand in pot of
boiling water.

952
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,520
That's really painful.
I hope I'm not doing that.

953
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:04,520
And then people say, no, no,
these are just autonomic

954
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:06,200
reactions.
They're going on without any

955
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,400
accompanying sense of pain.
Maybe.

956
00:53:09,290 --> 00:53:10,570
Maybe.
How do you tell?

957
00:53:13,610 --> 00:53:17,410
But that's as far as it goes.
And certainly if somebody makes

958
00:53:18,090 --> 00:53:23,530
a computer and their design has
been to make it so that it

959
00:53:23,530 --> 00:53:30,290
behaves outwardly like a person,
but inwardly, it looks nothing

960
00:53:30,290 --> 00:53:34,550
like a brain and doesn't work at
all in the same way, I'm not

961
00:53:34,550 --> 00:53:37,510
going to be fooled by thinking
the fact that it outwardly acts

962
00:53:37,510 --> 00:53:39,710
like a person to thinking that
it's conscious.

963
00:53:40,870 --> 00:53:43,790
You made it to act that way.
I mean, these large language,

964
00:53:43,950 --> 00:53:45,830
you know, chat bots, they're not
conscious.

965
00:53:45,830 --> 00:53:48,870
I I know they're not conscious
because I know how they work.

966
00:53:48,870 --> 00:53:50,910
I had somebody, you know,
somebody came to our department

967
00:53:50,910 --> 00:53:53,150
and explained how they work.
They're just statistical

968
00:53:53,150 --> 00:53:57,630
analyzers doing, you know, a
bunch of analysis on texts.

969
00:53:58,190 --> 00:54:03,130
And those texts were created by
actual, conscious comprehending

970
00:54:03,130 --> 00:54:06,210
human beings.
And because they were created by

971
00:54:06,210 --> 00:54:09,290
human conscious comprehending
human beings, if you do the

972
00:54:09,290 --> 00:54:11,810
right kind of statistical
analysis, you can produce

973
00:54:11,810 --> 00:54:14,610
behavior that sounds like it's
coming from a conscious human

974
00:54:14,610 --> 00:54:16,890
being, but not because The thing
is conscious.

975
00:54:16,890 --> 00:54:19,570
It isn't.
I know for sure chatbot's not

976
00:54:19,570 --> 00:54:22,330
conscious, but sure it can act
like it.

977
00:54:22,330 --> 00:54:24,810
It could fool me into, you know,
I could be fooled if I didn't

978
00:54:24,810 --> 00:54:27,570
know I was interacting with it.
So what?

979
00:54:28,170 --> 00:54:30,010
And the truth is, we can't
really even tell, I mean.

980
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,000
If we you and I are.
So that whole philosophical

981
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,360
zombie argument also doesn't
really apply technically to when

982
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,640
we talk about each other, cuz
there's no real way for me to

983
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,000
know if you it doesn't.
But if you go that far, I mean,

984
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,640
if somebody says, look, I know
I'm conscious, but if I were to

985
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,560
say right now, I know I'm
conscious cuz I'm here inside.

986
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,510
Right.
And I don't know your conscious,

987
00:54:49,510 --> 00:54:52,390
I think, oh, come on.
I mean that's not serious.

988
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:53,990
Of course, you know, other
people are conscious.

989
00:54:53,990 --> 00:54:56,510
I mean, what kind of lunatic
view is it that you're the only

990
00:54:56,510 --> 00:54:59,710
conscious being in the universe?
I can't.

991
00:54:59,910 --> 00:55:02,350
I can't, as it were, logically
refuted.

992
00:55:02,350 --> 00:55:04,590
But come on, I mean, it's just a
joke.

993
00:55:04,590 --> 00:55:06,270
Don't waste our time with this
stuff.

994
00:55:06,910 --> 00:55:09,270
Yes, people are conscious.
Yes, dogs are conscious.

995
00:55:10,390 --> 00:55:14,310
Lobsters, I'm not so sure.
Yeah, it's almost alien, like

996
00:55:14,310 --> 00:55:16,070
species.
So like, octopi octopuses.

997
00:55:16,070 --> 00:55:17,550
Yeah, yeah, octopi.
I don't know.

998
00:55:17,550 --> 00:55:21,510
We just actually found her.
We just, my wife, an octopus

999
00:55:21,510 --> 00:55:27,030
came and grabbed her ankle.
So we saw an octopus.

1000
00:55:27,030 --> 00:55:29,910
And man, I mean they're really
interesting animals and they're

1001
00:55:30,110 --> 00:55:33,950
we know that they're in a way
have a kind of control and

1002
00:55:34,270 --> 00:55:36,640
intelligence.
But what is it?

1003
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:39,800
But you know, to use to use
Nagle's phrase, what is it like

1004
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,880
to be an octopus?
I I have no idea and I don't

1005
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:49,680
know how I would you know, I I
can analyze octopus neural

1006
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:53,040
systems till the cows come home
and I'm not quite sure what I'm

1007
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,120
going to find there that would
answer that question.

1008
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:56,760
Right.
What does it feel like to be an

1009
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,320
octopus?
Or, you know, I can analyze the

1010
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:01,480
neural pathways in a in a
lobster.

1011
00:56:02,490 --> 00:56:04,970
What am I going to look for to
tell whether it feels pain?

1012
00:56:05,130 --> 00:56:08,690
I I don't know what to look for.
That's because of the hard

1013
00:56:08,690 --> 00:56:13,170
problem as far as I'm concerned.
Things like dogs, you know,

1014
00:56:13,170 --> 00:56:15,050
they're very similar in all
sorts of ways.

1015
00:56:15,210 --> 00:56:17,970
I may not know which of those
ways are relevant and which are

1016
00:56:17,970 --> 00:56:21,610
irrelevant, but there are enough
similarities and then enough

1017
00:56:21,610 --> 00:56:25,010
similarity in the behavior and
so on to say, well, of course

1018
00:56:25,010 --> 00:56:27,250
they're conscious.
Yeah.

1019
00:56:27,250 --> 00:56:28,930
Now I completely agree with you
in that regard.

1020
00:56:29,170 --> 00:56:31,940
Tell me to with with the.
With the work you're doing, and

1021
00:56:31,940 --> 00:56:35,340
when you think about metaphysics
or physics and the studying of

1022
00:56:35,340 --> 00:56:39,300
ontology and trying to stand
this this universe, what part of

1023
00:56:39,300 --> 00:56:41,900
this all excites you the most at
the moment in your life?

1024
00:56:43,420 --> 00:56:47,020
I mean, right now what I'm
spending my time doing or should

1025
00:56:47,020 --> 00:56:52,060
be spending my time doing
because I'm too lazy is, is, is,

1026
00:56:52,300 --> 00:56:59,060
is thinking about.
So the physics, there are three

1027
00:56:59,060 --> 00:57:03,920
main pillars of physics.
We used to say there were two,

1028
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,080
and we said, well, there's
theory of relativity, which is

1029
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:11,200
really a theory of space-time
structure, and there's quantum

1030
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:14,120
theory, which is, as it were, a
theory of of the stuff in

1031
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:16,640
space-time which includes
matter.

1032
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:20,720
We used to say those were the
two great pillars and we don't

1033
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:22,520
quite know how to put them
together, right.

1034
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:24,860
How to join them, which is
right.

1035
00:57:25,340 --> 00:57:28,060
And then we started to say which
is an interesting thing to say.

1036
00:57:28,060 --> 00:57:29,580
Well, there's really kind of a
third pillar.

1037
00:57:29,580 --> 00:57:33,020
It's of a different character.
It's it's statistical physics,

1038
00:57:33,020 --> 00:57:37,820
it's thermodynamics, it's it's
explanations in physics that

1039
00:57:37,820 --> 00:57:44,420
necessarily appeal to
statistical phenomena of of

1040
00:57:44,420 --> 00:57:46,220
large ensembles and things like
that.

1041
00:57:46,540 --> 00:57:50,540
And I think it's right that
their explanations and sources

1042
00:57:50,540 --> 00:57:56,210
of understanding there that you
need and you won't get just by

1043
00:57:56,210 --> 00:57:59,050
looking barely at space-time
theory and barely at.

1044
00:57:59,850 --> 00:58:02,530
But the thing about the
statistical part, the

1045
00:58:02,530 --> 00:58:06,390
thermodynamics part, is it
doesn't make any new ontological

1046
00:58:06,390 --> 00:58:08,350
postulates.
It doesn't say, oh, here's

1047
00:58:08,350 --> 00:58:11,390
something that the high energy
physicists missed.

1048
00:58:11,550 --> 00:58:14,510
No, it says, here's a way of
thinking about what the high

1049
00:58:14,510 --> 00:58:19,030
energy physicists have found and
and and producing explanations

1050
00:58:19,030 --> 00:58:20,550
out of it.
So let's shunt that aside.

1051
00:58:20,550 --> 00:58:23,150
That's not kind of that part of
it isn't really worried about

1052
00:58:23,150 --> 00:58:26,870
ontology and what what there is.
So what are we left with?

1053
00:58:26,870 --> 00:58:30,070
We left with space-time, which
is kind of the arena, as we say,

1054
00:58:30,070 --> 00:58:32,910
in which things happen.
And then there's the stuff

1055
00:58:32,910 --> 00:58:34,910
that's happening in space-time,
right?

1056
00:58:34,910 --> 00:58:38,310
That's kind of part of there at
the moment.

1057
00:58:38,310 --> 00:58:41,870
What I've been working on for
some time is a proposal on the

1058
00:58:41,870 --> 00:58:44,270
space-time part.
That's what.

1059
00:58:44,270 --> 00:58:48,190
What if space-time has a
discrete structure which is

1060
00:58:48,190 --> 00:58:51,870
quite different than Euclidian
geometry or the OR special

1061
00:58:51,870 --> 00:58:53,430
relativity or general
relativity.

1062
00:58:53,430 --> 00:58:59,000
All of these are continuum
theories where you you can

1063
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,960
always take any distance and
have it and have it and have it

1064
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:04,320
and have it right.
There's no end to that that that

1065
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:09,240
you don't ever get down to a
fundamental atomic unit of

1066
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:14,400
distance as it were or or or
area or and and and it's been

1067
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:18,760
known since antiquity since, you
know, maybe, maybe it bottoms

1068
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,560
out somewhere, maybe ultimately
space and time really are

1069
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:23,320
discrete, have a discrete
structure.

1070
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:29,000
And I actually think that hasn't
been considered enough or

1071
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,240
studied enough there.
You know, you can say that.

1072
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:33,840
But then there are a billion
ways to try and implement such

1073
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:37,120
an idea, and I'm working one of
the billion ways out.

1074
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:42,360
Do you think this quest that you
think this quest that you guys

1075
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:46,880
are on to sort of fuse these two
fields together to get them

1076
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:51,000
together to get a theory of
everything how much work has

1077
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:53,360
been done in it from your side
that you think is going to sort

1078
00:59:53,360 --> 01:00:00,460
of get bridge these this gap.
I don't know I'm the the the

1079
01:00:00,740 --> 01:00:03,820
everybody talks about a quantum
theory of gravity which is would

1080
01:00:03,820 --> 01:00:07,460
be something that brings to get
because gravity is what is

1081
01:00:07,460 --> 01:00:10,660
explained.
The best theory we have for

1082
01:00:10,660 --> 01:00:15,540
gravitational effects is general
relativity, and for matter is of

1083
01:00:15,540 --> 01:00:19,980
course the standard model of
quantum theory, and those two

1084
01:00:19,980 --> 01:00:24,220
theories don't play together
very well mathematically.

1085
01:00:25,590 --> 01:00:27,830
So then there's a question.
Well, what do I need to do?

1086
01:00:27,830 --> 01:00:31,070
Do I need to quantize gravity?
People talk about that to kind

1087
01:00:31,070 --> 01:00:35,550
of just bring the gravitational
part over into the Standard

1088
01:00:35,550 --> 01:00:38,630
Model part.
There's something curious about

1089
01:00:38,630 --> 01:00:41,030
that, which is that there's a
kind of deep intellectual

1090
01:00:41,070 --> 01:00:46,150
insight about the nature of
gravity suggested by general

1091
01:00:46,150 --> 01:00:48,230
relativity.
And as far as I can tell, if you

1092
01:00:48,230 --> 01:00:53,030
try to do that, you throw that
away, say no, Einstein was wrong

1093
01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:56,630
about that.
That insight was that what we

1094
01:00:56,630 --> 01:01:00,150
call gravitational effects that
Newton ascribed to forces aren't

1095
01:01:00,150 --> 01:01:02,070
ascribed to forces at all.
They're ascribed to the

1096
01:01:02,070 --> 01:01:06,030
curvature of space-time.
That's a really interesting

1097
01:01:06,030 --> 01:01:07,630
idea.
It works very well.

1098
01:01:08,350 --> 01:01:13,870
I personally would be very sad
that turned out not to be

1099
01:01:13,870 --> 01:01:19,730
correct.
The other idea is to say no, you

1100
01:01:19,730 --> 01:01:22,490
know, you, you, you.
It's really gravity just isn't

1101
01:01:22,490 --> 01:01:25,290
like electromagnetism really.
The inside of general relativity

1102
01:01:25,290 --> 01:01:27,170
is correct.
Gravity is a different deal.

1103
01:01:27,690 --> 01:01:29,890
Don't try to assimilate it to
these other to to

1104
01:01:29,890 --> 01:01:32,890
electromagnetism and weaken
strong nuclear forces and so on.

1105
01:01:33,690 --> 01:01:36,570
It has to do with fundamental
space-time structure.

1106
01:01:36,570 --> 01:01:38,650
And what you need to do is think
about what fundamental

1107
01:01:38,650 --> 01:01:43,530
space-time structure might be
and then how you formulate the

1108
01:01:43,530 --> 01:01:45,850
quantum mechanical part in terms
of that.

1109
01:01:48,740 --> 01:01:51,900
That's the way I'm going.
Yeah, maybe it's right, maybe

1110
01:01:51,900 --> 01:01:53,780
it's wrong.
You only find out, you know, by

1111
01:01:53,780 --> 01:01:55,740
poking along.
I mean, you can only find out

1112
01:01:55,740 --> 01:01:58,900
for one particular way of trying
to do that, and I'm kind of

1113
01:01:59,260 --> 01:02:02,140
poking along in a certain way to
see what happens.

1114
01:02:02,380 --> 01:02:04,780
With the reading your books and
your papers, I mean, it's clear

1115
01:02:04,780 --> 01:02:08,940
that now really influenced you.
How did that start for you?

1116
01:02:08,940 --> 01:02:10,860
What was?
What was what is so brilliant

1117
01:02:10,860 --> 01:02:14,740
about the work that really got
you gripped and then continued

1118
01:02:14,740 --> 01:02:17,890
with it for so many years?
Yeah, I I mean, look, the the,

1119
01:02:18,170 --> 01:02:21,330
the thing that first got me into
this wasn't reading Bell.

1120
01:02:21,330 --> 01:02:25,290
It was it was reading Bernard
Despignan's Scientific American

1121
01:02:25,290 --> 01:02:29,610
article of 1979 on Bell's
theorem.

1122
01:02:31,810 --> 01:02:35,770
I I I mean you're way too you're
you're just a little sprout.

1123
01:02:35,810 --> 01:02:38,210
You wouldn't remember.
There's many of us in this field

1124
01:02:38,210 --> 01:02:40,290
who were around then.
Do remember there's a big dung

1125
01:02:40,290 --> 01:02:42,650
beetle on the cover.
I mean, you remember that issue

1126
01:02:42,650 --> 01:02:46,680
of Scientific Americans?
Now, when I go back and look at

1127
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:52,200
that article by Des Pena now, I
would raise a certain number of

1128
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,040
objections to it.
I don't think what he says there

1129
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:59,280
is quite right, but there was
enough detail to understand what

1130
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:00,960
the theorem was.
What did he say?

1131
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:03,280
What did he say?
What would you agree with?

1132
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:06,640
What did he?
Say and what?

1133
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:10,280
Don't you agree with it?
Well, he ends up saying, well,

1134
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:12,720
they're these three assumptions
of Bell's theorem.

1135
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:15,820
And one of the assumptions is, I
don't know, induction or

1136
01:03:15,820 --> 01:03:17,820
something.
I mean some very general

1137
01:03:18,380 --> 01:03:23,060
methodological thing that, you
know, you want to say.

1138
01:03:23,060 --> 01:03:26,580
Look, one of your options is not
to give up on induction.

1139
01:03:28,660 --> 01:03:31,540
If you say, oh, I'm going to get
around Bell's theorem by denying

1140
01:03:31,540 --> 01:03:34,660
induction, I mean, it's like,
what are you talking about?

1141
01:03:34,660 --> 01:03:37,780
You can't do that.
And so there were kind of

1142
01:03:37,780 --> 01:03:42,180
suggestions that there were ways
around the theorem which I think

1143
01:03:42,180 --> 01:03:46,770
are not they're not ways you can
take and and and maintain

1144
01:03:46,770 --> 01:03:51,490
physical science at all.
I can't I mean I haven't read it

1145
01:03:51,490 --> 01:03:54,770
that recently that I can tell
you chapter and verse but but

1146
01:03:55,010 --> 01:03:58,130
you know he gave the mathematics
and he gave the example with the

1147
01:03:58,250 --> 01:04:02,050
singlet state clearly enough.
I I mean, I I won't tell the

1148
01:04:02,050 --> 01:04:06,740
story.
I I was a senior in college and

1149
01:04:06,940 --> 01:04:09,660
I lived with a couple other
people in a room and I had taken

1150
01:04:09,660 --> 01:04:13,180
the the so we all had a bedroom.
I had taken the living room that

1151
01:04:13,180 --> 01:04:19,220
was my room and we had windows
that looked out onto the onto

1152
01:04:19,220 --> 01:04:22,260
the sidewalk and they looked in
and they saw me.

1153
01:04:22,540 --> 01:04:25,740
I was holding this thing in my
hand pacing right.

1154
01:04:25,740 --> 01:04:29,580
I was just had this look on my
face like this, holding this

1155
01:04:29,580 --> 01:04:35,150
magazine, walking in circles
around the coffee table and they

1156
01:04:35,150 --> 01:04:39,230
said what's wrong?
And it was I was, I was reading

1157
01:04:39,230 --> 01:04:42,390
that article and you kind of,
you know, it was enough there to

1158
01:04:42,390 --> 01:04:47,670
say no, this is really weird.
This is an amazing, amazing

1159
01:04:47,670 --> 01:04:51,070
discovery.
I understand the people who

1160
01:04:51,070 --> 01:04:55,550
thought at the time when they go
into the lab and check, is this,

1161
01:04:55,830 --> 01:04:59,350
is this inequality violated at
space, like separation?

1162
01:04:59,350 --> 01:05:01,670
The answer will be no.
We're just going to find quantum

1163
01:05:01,670 --> 01:05:05,770
mechanical predictions break
down because it's so weird

1164
01:05:06,170 --> 01:05:07,970
right?
To to give up on locality.

1165
01:05:08,330 --> 01:05:11,410
Yes, it is.
It is the last thing in the

1166
01:05:11,410 --> 01:05:13,010
world you would expect because
why?

1167
01:05:13,010 --> 01:05:16,170
Because local physics, I mean
Maxwellian electrodynamics is

1168
01:05:16,170 --> 01:05:19,450
local physics and Newtonian
gravity, if you if you

1169
01:05:19,610 --> 01:05:21,970
implemented in the normal way is
local physics.

1170
01:05:21,970 --> 01:05:26,050
I mean local physics was just
did really well and Einstein had

1171
01:05:26,050 --> 01:05:28,210
worries about what would happen
if it wasn't local.

1172
01:05:28,210 --> 01:05:30,930
They're good words.
You know, you don't want to give

1173
01:05:30,930 --> 01:05:36,790
up on locality, but you got a
theorem and then you got some

1174
01:05:36,790 --> 01:05:39,910
experiments.
And I'm sorry, you know, that's

1175
01:05:39,910 --> 01:05:43,230
just, you know, you got to give
up on it and then you really

1176
01:05:43,230 --> 01:05:45,750
were.
So, you know, it was the result

1177
01:05:45,750 --> 01:05:49,190
that first got me interested.
Now then when you go and read

1178
01:05:49,230 --> 01:05:55,070
them, he's such a genius.
I mean, he's such an

1179
01:05:55,390 --> 01:06:00,830
unbelievable, off the scale,
beautiful thinker, beautiful

1180
01:06:00,830 --> 01:06:04,520
writer.
Clear his only flaw.

1181
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:08,160
As I say, the only flaw Bell has
as a writer, is that he's too

1182
01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:12,880
concise.
He'll, he'll, he'll say exactly

1183
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:15,880
the right thing in exactly the
right words in a sentence.

1184
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:19,000
And then he makes the mistake of
thinking that readers are

1185
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:22,550
careful enough who digest that.
And then he can rely on your

1186
01:06:22,550 --> 01:06:24,750
having understood that for
everything that comes after.

1187
01:06:25,030 --> 01:06:28,470
And the problem is as if you,
you know, are around humanity

1188
01:06:28,470 --> 01:06:30,990
much.
You realize, no, you know, you

1189
01:06:30,990 --> 01:06:33,510
can say it right and you can say
it clearly, but they're too.

1190
01:06:33,550 --> 01:06:35,790
But people are just too sloppy
when they read.

1191
01:06:35,790 --> 01:06:40,070
And you know as I say you know
he was a he was a surgeon with

1192
01:06:40,070 --> 01:06:43,280
words.
I I my technique as I say, I

1193
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:46,880
take a 2 by 4 and whack you over
the head about 100 times with

1194
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:49,880
the same thing, saying look,
look, look, look, because I know

1195
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:53,960
people it's hard to get through.
But but if you appreciate him,

1196
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:59,520
if you read him carefully, every
now and then you know, even home

1197
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:02,480
or nods every now and then Bell
said something that I wish he

1198
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:05,240
hadn't said but it's very very
rare.

1199
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:09,240
And the amount of understanding
and insight and clarity about

1200
01:07:09,810 --> 01:07:12,610
not just quantum physics but
about science, about physics,

1201
01:07:12,610 --> 01:07:15,410
about everything.
I mean he was a natural as we

1202
01:07:15,410 --> 01:07:17,810
would say a natural born
philosopher the way Einstein

1203
01:07:17,810 --> 01:07:20,050
was.
I mean Einstein knew that he

1204
01:07:20,050 --> 01:07:22,210
liked philosophy and spent time
reading philosophy.

1205
01:07:22,210 --> 01:07:26,010
I don't know if Belle did or
not, quite honestly, but he

1206
01:07:26,010 --> 01:07:30,010
would have been great
philosopher in a philosophy

1207
01:07:30,010 --> 01:07:32,610
department because he was clear
thinker.

1208
01:07:33,230 --> 01:07:35,430
Aside from his physics and from
from the work he's done, what

1209
01:07:35,430 --> 01:07:37,910
what sort of deep philosophical
insights do you feel like he's

1210
01:07:38,150 --> 01:07:41,830
given you in life in general?
Well, so let me just take

1211
01:07:41,830 --> 01:07:44,350
something that that is relevant
to what we were talking about

1212
01:07:44,350 --> 01:07:49,070
before people somehow think,
gosh, in quantum theory, the

1213
01:07:49,070 --> 01:07:52,470
observer gets injected back in,
right?

1214
01:07:52,470 --> 01:07:56,590
The observer was kind of kicked
out by Newton and and and

1215
01:07:56,590 --> 01:07:59,870
Maxwell and and Boltzmann.
But, Gee, the observer creeps

1216
01:07:59,870 --> 01:08:01,830
back into physics with quantum
theory.

1217
01:08:02,540 --> 01:08:04,500
And.
And this is one of the things

1218
01:08:04,500 --> 01:08:09,220
Bell says, no, that's not right.
Now the question is, all right,

1219
01:08:09,420 --> 01:08:11,900
why might you think that?
Here's one thing to think.

1220
01:08:11,900 --> 01:08:15,620
You say, well, the data,
ultimately, the data that we

1221
01:08:15,620 --> 01:08:18,580
have are conscious experiences,
right?

1222
01:08:18,580 --> 01:08:23,740
That's the evidence.
And so to use that as data for

1223
01:08:23,740 --> 01:08:27,100
physical theory, you somehow
have to connect consciousness to

1224
01:08:27,100 --> 01:08:30,399
physics.
But that requires solving the

1225
01:08:30,399 --> 01:08:32,000
hard problem.
I mean, you see how you go in

1226
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:34,640
that direction.
And and Bell said no, no, no,

1227
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:37,439
that's not right at all because
because we don't, first of all,

1228
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:41,000
we don't have a clue how to do
that and Newton didn't have a

1229
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:43,520
clue how to do that and so on.
So how does it really work?

1230
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:46,960
It works this way.
What what we take ourselves to

1231
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:52,359
have reliable access to is the
macroscopic positions and

1232
01:08:52,359 --> 01:08:57,279
motions of macroscopic objects.
Like a needle on a on an

1233
01:08:57,279 --> 01:09:01,100
ammeter.
We can just look and see did it

1234
01:09:01,100 --> 01:09:03,580
go this way or that way.
We can reliably tell did it

1235
01:09:03,580 --> 01:09:06,140
behave this way or that way.
If you now, does that involve

1236
01:09:06,140 --> 01:09:07,540
consciousness?
Sure it does.

1237
01:09:07,660 --> 01:09:09,340
Do we know how that works?
No, we don't.

1238
01:09:09,540 --> 01:09:14,260
But you better take for granted
that that's a reliable piece of

1239
01:09:14,260 --> 01:09:17,060
information.
Otherwise physics is dead in the

1240
01:09:17,060 --> 01:09:19,630
water.
If you can't tell whether a

1241
01:09:19,630 --> 01:09:22,510
needle went to the right or the
left, then you have no nothing

1242
01:09:22,510 --> 01:09:24,750
to to to to test your physics
against.

1243
01:09:25,109 --> 01:09:28,510
So what Bell said, and this is
in a theory he called the theory

1244
01:09:28,510 --> 01:09:30,910
of paper, he called the theory
of local vehicles.

1245
01:09:31,350 --> 01:09:33,750
And the interesting thing about
that is that the needle is a

1246
01:09:33,750 --> 01:09:35,710
local thing, right?
The needle.

1247
01:09:36,470 --> 01:09:38,950
Unlike the wave function, the
quantum state, the needle

1248
01:09:39,270 --> 01:09:42,870
occupies a certain position in
space and that position changes.

1249
01:09:42,870 --> 01:09:46,550
It goes this way or that way.
This is the local behavior of

1250
01:09:46,550 --> 01:09:50,220
local objects.
That's what our everyday

1251
01:09:50,220 --> 01:09:55,260
experience informs us of and we
think quite reliably.

1252
01:09:56,220 --> 01:10:00,140
And that is the data against
which we can then test a theory

1253
01:10:00,140 --> 01:10:03,380
of physics.
If the theory of physics has in

1254
01:10:03,380 --> 01:10:06,860
it what he calls some local
vehicles, if it postulates some

1255
01:10:06,860 --> 01:10:11,020
local stuff that this needle is
made out of, then that theory

1256
01:10:11,020 --> 01:10:13,860
can predict, oh, it'll do this
or it'll do that, Or, you know,

1257
01:10:13,940 --> 01:10:17,140
75% of the time it'll do this,
and 25% of the time it'll do

1258
01:10:17,140 --> 01:10:19,300
that or whatever.
And then we can test the theory.

1259
01:10:20,340 --> 01:10:23,260
And none of that requires
talking about consciousness or

1260
01:10:23,260 --> 01:10:25,060
whatever.
It just talks about needles and

1261
01:10:25,060 --> 01:10:26,860
what they do.
And of course, we take for

1262
01:10:26,860 --> 01:10:30,820
granted that we can see what you
know as it when, when, when

1263
01:10:30,820 --> 01:10:33,340
Galileo describes this
experiment that he supposedly

1264
01:10:33,340 --> 01:10:39,310
does dropping, you know, a large
and small ball off of, well, the

1265
01:10:39,310 --> 01:10:40,910
leaning tower of peas or some
tower.

1266
01:10:41,950 --> 01:10:45,070
And he says, oh, you let go of
them and they hit the ground

1267
01:10:45,070 --> 01:10:46,790
within a finger's breadth of
each other.

1268
01:10:46,790 --> 01:10:47,950
Right.
They hit the ground almost

1269
01:10:47,950 --> 01:10:50,150
together, which is against
Aristotle's theory.

1270
01:10:50,190 --> 01:10:52,310
Fine.
But of course, what's he's

1271
01:10:52,310 --> 01:10:55,110
assuming, he's assuming you can
tell what how close they were

1272
01:10:55,110 --> 01:10:56,270
when they hit the ground.
Right.

1273
01:10:56,590 --> 01:10:59,950
You, you, you really have
reliable access to, you know,

1274
01:10:59,950 --> 01:11:02,870
the order and how far apart they
were when they hit the ground.

1275
01:11:03,190 --> 01:11:04,950
He doesn't go into how we know
that.

1276
01:11:07,140 --> 01:11:09,300
And you better drop them during
the day, right?

1277
01:11:09,300 --> 01:11:12,060
If you drop them in the dead of
night when it's dark out, you're

1278
01:11:12,060 --> 01:11:14,340
not going to know when they hit
the ground, okay.

1279
01:11:14,380 --> 01:11:17,700
But there are circumstances
where we all agree we have good

1280
01:11:17,700 --> 01:11:19,660
access to that kind of
information.

1281
01:11:20,220 --> 01:11:23,580
That's the information you then
use to test your your physical

1282
01:11:23,580 --> 01:11:26,940
theory.
But to do that, it means you

1283
01:11:26,940 --> 01:11:29,100
have to be able to account for
things like that in your

1284
01:11:29,100 --> 01:11:31,420
physical theory.
And to do that, Bell says you

1285
01:11:31,420 --> 01:11:33,940
need some local vehicles.
I think he's absolutely right.

1286
01:11:33,940 --> 01:11:37,840
I think all of that cuts through
all of the stuff about

1287
01:11:37,840 --> 01:11:41,880
observation and measurement and
the consciousness just it's

1288
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:44,560
gone.
No, that's not the way physics

1289
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:46,200
works.
This is the way physics works.

1290
01:11:46,200 --> 01:11:50,760
He's absolutely right about.
That are there any other well

1291
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:54,360
famous philosophers, physicists
you think really sort of shaped

1292
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:57,040
your view, your worldview at
this point other than Bell?

1293
01:11:57,120 --> 01:12:00,600
Well, you know, I've said for a
long time, which is true, that

1294
01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:05,080
if you ask about who are the
greatest philosophers of physics

1295
01:12:05,670 --> 01:12:08,630
in the 20th century, the first
half it's Einstein, and in the

1296
01:12:08,630 --> 01:12:10,790
second-half it's Bell, right?
They weren't people who work in

1297
01:12:10,790 --> 01:12:12,390
philosophy departments, but who
cares?

1298
01:12:12,390 --> 01:12:14,230
They were.
They were very deep thinkers

1299
01:12:14,230 --> 01:12:17,910
about the nature of physics and
very deep thinkers about the

1300
01:12:17,910 --> 01:12:19,430
physical theories that were
around.

1301
01:12:20,510 --> 01:12:22,390
You learn a lot by reading
Einstein.

1302
01:12:22,430 --> 01:12:25,150
You read his letters, read
everything that you know.

1303
01:12:25,150 --> 01:12:28,910
You see how frustrated he was
because he couldn't communicate

1304
01:12:29,150 --> 01:12:32,350
with other physicists and get
his point across.

1305
01:12:32,350 --> 01:12:34,930
And it just drove him nuts.
And when you read the letters,

1306
01:12:34,930 --> 01:12:37,210
you see why it drove them nuts
because they're being almost

1307
01:12:37,250 --> 01:12:41,250
willfully obtuse.
You learn a lot by reading

1308
01:12:41,250 --> 01:12:42,970
Schrodinger.
Everybody talks about

1309
01:12:42,970 --> 01:12:44,930
Schrodinger's cat.
How many people have read that

1310
01:12:44,930 --> 01:12:46,290
paper?
It's a beautiful paper.

1311
01:12:46,810 --> 01:12:49,450
It's a really beautiful paper.
And it doesn't say what many

1312
01:12:49,450 --> 01:12:52,130
people think it says, but they.
But, you know, history.

1313
01:12:52,130 --> 01:12:54,210
I mean, look, my degree was in
history and philosophy of

1314
01:12:54,210 --> 01:12:55,330
science.
So I'm used to going.

1315
01:12:55,370 --> 01:12:58,290
I'm used to reading Newton.
I'm used to reading Maxwell and

1316
01:12:58,290 --> 01:13:01,050
Boltzmann and Einstein.
And these were wonderful,

1317
01:13:01,250 --> 01:13:04,810
wonderful, wonderful, clear
thinkers.

1318
01:13:05,770 --> 01:13:09,490
And I guess they shake.
I mean, I would mention them

1319
01:13:09,490 --> 01:13:13,690
before any other, you know,
philosopher, quite honestly.

1320
01:13:14,250 --> 01:13:15,930
But I think of them as
philosophers.

1321
01:13:16,210 --> 01:13:18,490
When you think, when you think
of Einstein and Bell, I mean you

1322
01:13:18,490 --> 01:13:20,650
know that Bell's theorem and
it's sort of that tension

1323
01:13:20,650 --> 01:13:24,930
between relativity and.
Do you want to elaborate on that

1324
01:13:24,930 --> 01:13:27,050
a bit?
Sure.

1325
01:13:27,090 --> 01:13:33,510
I mean Einstein theory, the
special theory of relativity,

1326
01:13:33,510 --> 01:13:36,950
introduced into our picture of
space and time something Newton

1327
01:13:36,950 --> 01:13:40,710
didn't have, which is a light
cone structure.

1328
01:13:41,550 --> 01:13:44,590
Probably anybody who reads any
even popular books about this,

1329
01:13:44,590 --> 01:13:47,390
we'll see a thing that really
looks like a double cone.

1330
01:13:47,670 --> 01:13:50,750
In the center of it is an event
like I snap my fingers.

1331
01:13:51,110 --> 01:13:54,510
There's the past light cone,
which is all the things that

1332
01:13:54,510 --> 01:13:56,990
could have happened in the past
such that light could have

1333
01:13:56,990 --> 01:13:59,950
gotten from them to this and the
future light cone.

1334
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:05,120
And this is not something that
Newton has in his picture space

1335
01:14:05,120 --> 01:14:06,640
and time.
It's not something that that

1336
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:08,880
that Maxwell had in his picture
space and time.

1337
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:13,800
It turns out that it's in the
special theory of relativity.

1338
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:16,880
Einstein didn't quite understand
that early on either.

1339
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:18,840
Was Minkowski who had to point
this out.

1340
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:23,080
But I think Feinstein came
around to it, and in a certain

1341
01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:26,680
sense what Einstein with the
special theory was pointing out

1342
01:14:27,180 --> 01:14:29,700
was that Maxwellian
electrodynamics, which everybody

1343
01:14:29,700 --> 01:14:35,860
thought to be a very serious
theory in a certain way, lives

1344
01:14:36,260 --> 01:14:40,580
naturally in this relativistic
spacetime structure with these

1345
01:14:40,580 --> 01:14:45,900
light cones.
And what Einstein and and then

1346
01:14:46,580 --> 01:14:48,260
all right, that takes care of
electrodynamics.

1347
01:14:48,260 --> 01:14:51,500
The only other developed theory
Einstein had to worry about was

1348
01:14:51,500 --> 01:14:52,660
gravity.
At that point there was

1349
01:14:52,660 --> 01:14:56,300
Newtonian gravity.
And so after 1905, he has, he

1350
01:14:56,300 --> 01:14:58,700
has electrodynamics under
control.

1351
01:14:59,220 --> 01:15:01,860
And then he spends 10 years
trying to get something like

1352
01:15:01,980 --> 01:15:06,100
theory of gravity under control.
In this setting, it takes him 10

1353
01:15:06,100 --> 01:15:08,420
years to come up with the
general theory of relativity.

1354
01:15:08,420 --> 01:15:11,220
There's this whole race with
Hilbert from the last, you know,

1355
01:15:11,220 --> 01:15:14,140
the Sprint at the end to write
down the field equations.

1356
01:15:14,140 --> 01:15:15,340
All right.
It's a very interesting

1357
01:15:15,860 --> 01:15:19,260
historical episode.
But at the end of the day, what

1358
01:15:19,260 --> 01:15:22,220
you do, as I said, is, is the
general theory then says, look,

1359
01:15:22,220 --> 01:15:23,900
Newton wasn't right about
gravity.

1360
01:15:23,900 --> 01:15:26,770
Newton thought gravity was a
force and it's not.

1361
01:15:26,770 --> 01:15:29,810
What we call gravitational
effects are are actually due to

1362
01:15:29,850 --> 01:15:32,290
curvature of space-time.
And you need to now go from

1363
01:15:33,730 --> 01:15:37,090
special theory of relativity
which has a flat space-time to a

1364
01:15:37,690 --> 01:15:40,970
theory that has space times with
variable curvature and you need

1365
01:15:40,970 --> 01:15:44,210
to couple the curvature to the
energy content blah blah blah.

1366
01:15:44,570 --> 01:15:50,730
OK, but all of that means, I
mean, and Einstein's idea was

1367
01:15:50,730 --> 01:15:57,030
that if if an event occurs, all
of the possible causes of it lie

1368
01:15:57,030 --> 01:16:00,150
in or on its past light cone,
right?

1369
01:16:01,230 --> 01:16:05,990
If for for something that affect
me right now, that thing has to

1370
01:16:05,990 --> 01:16:08,550
be has to be in my in or on my
past light cone.

1371
01:16:10,870 --> 01:16:14,270
And the only things I can
something I do now, the only

1372
01:16:14,270 --> 01:16:16,710
effects it can have are in or on
the future light cone.

1373
01:16:17,350 --> 01:16:20,030
And so this stuff that's outside
the light cones, what we call

1374
01:16:20,030 --> 01:16:23,670
space like separation, can
neither be a cause nor an effect

1375
01:16:23,670 --> 01:16:26,900
of this event.
That's locality, that's Bell

1376
01:16:26,900 --> 01:16:32,380
locality, that's the that is the
very proposition that Bell

1377
01:16:32,380 --> 01:16:35,500
investigates.
It's a very general proposition,

1378
01:16:35,500 --> 01:16:37,060
an amazingly general
proposition.

1379
01:16:37,060 --> 01:16:39,460
It's not tied to quantum theory,
it's not tried to and it's just

1380
01:16:40,380 --> 01:16:43,220
all your all your causes are in
or on your past light cone, all

1381
01:16:43,220 --> 01:16:45,860
your effects are in or on your
future light cone.

1382
01:16:46,140 --> 01:16:48,540
Therefore, there can be no
direct causal connections, no

1383
01:16:48,540 --> 01:16:51,500
direct causal connections
between 2 space like separated

1384
01:16:53,780 --> 01:17:00,310
experiments.
And what Bell shows is that very

1385
01:17:00,310 --> 01:17:05,470
very general proposition that
Einstein absolutely believes has

1386
01:17:05,590 --> 01:17:09,590
logical consequences.
Which is amazing because it's so

1387
01:17:09,950 --> 01:17:12,150
generic, right?
It's it's not getting into the

1388
01:17:12,150 --> 01:17:15,430
details of the physics at all,
just it's just if your physics

1389
01:17:15,430 --> 01:17:17,870
is local in this well defined
sense.

1390
01:17:19,150 --> 01:17:21,590
Here's some phenomena your
theory cannot predict.

1391
01:17:22,150 --> 01:17:26,560
Here's some phenomena that your
theory cannot explain, and those

1392
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:33,000
boundaries are given by what's
called Bell's inequality, which

1393
01:17:33,000 --> 01:17:35,960
also has other versions
depending on the setting, you're

1394
01:17:35,960 --> 01:17:37,840
working with two or three
systems.

1395
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:43,320
OK, but that's the idea.
What does those limits that that

1396
01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:44,920
arise immediately that come to
mind?

1397
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:46,800
Yeah.
So there there, there are limits

1398
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:53,040
about how strongly correlated
the outcomes of experiments done

1399
01:17:54,220 --> 01:17:56,900
so-called it's space like
separation that is so far apart

1400
01:17:56,900 --> 01:18:00,980
and so near in time that light
couldn't get from here to here

1401
01:18:00,980 --> 01:18:07,820
or from here to here, right.
So Alice and Bob, as we say or

1402
01:18:07,820 --> 01:18:12,220
Alice and Bob and Charlie are in
their labs and again, this

1403
01:18:12,220 --> 01:18:13,740
distance can be as far as you
like.

1404
01:18:13,740 --> 01:18:15,740
They could be hundreds of
billions of light years away

1405
01:18:15,740 --> 01:18:20,130
accordingly.
And Alice, Bob, Alice and Bob or

1406
01:18:20,130 --> 01:18:22,090
Alice and Bob and Charlie are
all going to make decisions

1407
01:18:22,090 --> 01:18:24,010
about how they're going to set
their apparatus.

1408
01:18:25,730 --> 01:18:29,690
And and we regard this is the
other piece, we regard these as

1409
01:18:30,330 --> 01:18:33,490
free in, in a, in a sense that
has nothing to do with freedom

1410
01:18:33,490 --> 01:18:35,650
of the will or anything else
like that.

1411
01:18:35,930 --> 01:18:38,930
There there's an assumption
called statistical independence,

1412
01:18:38,930 --> 01:18:42,690
and it's illustrated, as Bell
illustrated it in a wonderful

1413
01:18:42,690 --> 01:18:45,840
paper by using a pseudo random
number generator.

1414
01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:49,520
Like a generator that takes the
digits of π, it starts at the

1415
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:53,640
millionth digit of π, and if
it's even, gives you a plus, and

1416
01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:56,240
if it's minus it is odd, Gives
you a minus.

1417
01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:59,800
So you get a string of pluses
and minuses that is, in the

1418
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:02,120
technical sense, a completely
random string.

1419
01:19:03,550 --> 01:19:06,710
And Alice, Bob and Charlie are
using this to either set that

1420
01:19:06,870 --> 01:19:09,470
they each can set their
apparatus in one of two ways.

1421
01:19:09,470 --> 01:19:12,870
So they're using these strings
to kind of set them randomly,

1422
01:19:13,110 --> 01:19:16,550
and we regard that as as giving
you a random selection out of

1423
01:19:16,550 --> 01:19:19,910
these sets of particles that are
coming in.

1424
01:19:20,270 --> 01:19:26,110
OK, what what Bell shows is that
there's certain correlations

1425
01:19:26,150 --> 01:19:30,510
among the outcomes that Alice
and Bob get or Alice and Bob and

1426
01:19:30,510 --> 01:19:36,540
Charlie get that cannot be
predicted by any local theory.

1427
01:19:36,780 --> 01:19:42,180
Now this is, this is a I'm going
to give you an example that's

1428
01:19:42,180 --> 01:19:44,660
not quite right.
But I without going into, I

1429
01:19:44,660 --> 01:19:47,820
mean, I could draw the GHz thing
on the board behind me and go

1430
01:19:47,820 --> 01:19:50,460
through it in 15 minutes.
But let me just give you a kind

1431
01:19:50,460 --> 01:19:55,020
of example that is not quite
right.

1432
01:19:55,020 --> 01:19:57,660
So warning, right, but just to
get the idea across.

1433
01:19:58,020 --> 01:19:59,460
So.
So here's the kind of example

1434
01:19:59,460 --> 01:20:01,340
people sometimes get.
Suppose you have.

1435
01:20:02,070 --> 01:20:07,590
Three cards sitting on the
table, face down, and someone

1436
01:20:07,590 --> 01:20:12,030
says, here's an interesting
thing, whenever you you you can

1437
01:20:12,030 --> 01:20:14,710
randomly pick any two of those
cards any way you like.

1438
01:20:15,590 --> 01:20:19,510
And whenever you do, they'll be
of opposite colors.

1439
01:20:19,510 --> 01:20:23,510
You'll get one red and one
black, and you say, what?

1440
01:20:23,510 --> 01:20:26,310
How can you know how?
How can that be?

1441
01:20:26,310 --> 01:20:30,010
Because, look, if they're all
three the same color, then of

1442
01:20:30,010 --> 01:20:31,850
course they'll have to be the
same color.

1443
01:20:32,090 --> 01:20:34,770
Otherwise, 2 have to be the same
color and one different.

1444
01:20:34,770 --> 01:20:37,330
But then if I happen to pick the
two, then they're not going to

1445
01:20:37,330 --> 01:20:40,010
be of opposite colors, right?
What you know is that if that

1446
01:20:40,010 --> 01:20:44,050
were true, if whenever you just
randomly pick any two cards and

1447
01:20:44,050 --> 01:20:45,930
they're always a different, you
say there's something screwy

1448
01:20:45,930 --> 01:20:50,560
going on here, right?
I mean, somehow my choice must

1449
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:53,480
be having an influence on the
color of those cards, right?

1450
01:20:53,760 --> 01:20:56,800
There's some fancy device that's
saying, oh, he's he's going for

1451
01:20:56,840 --> 01:21:00,200
these two cards and they can
quickly change their colors.

1452
01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:01,640
You know that.
You can't.

1453
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:04,760
It can't be that the cards are
just sitting there with their

1454
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:07,600
colors and you're turning them
up, right?

1455
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:11,120
You, you just can't get.
So a local theory would be 1

1456
01:21:11,120 --> 01:21:14,720
where they have their colors all
along and the colors just remain

1457
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:17,000
what they are and all you're
doing is revealing them by

1458
01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:19,490
turning them up and you easily
see there.

1459
01:21:19,610 --> 01:21:23,050
Here's a phenomenon that that
kind of local theory cannot

1460
01:21:23,050 --> 01:21:26,050
predict that whenever you turn
up any two of them, they're of

1461
01:21:26,050 --> 01:21:30,010
opposite colors.
It's like that, right?

1462
01:21:31,090 --> 01:21:33,490
Something's going on there.
There's some, there's some way

1463
01:21:33,490 --> 01:21:37,650
that you're picking these two
cards is actually has to have an

1464
01:21:37,650 --> 01:21:42,850
effect on what color they are.
And that if the now you know

1465
01:21:43,090 --> 01:21:45,170
again if they're all on this
table, you could imagine a

1466
01:21:45,170 --> 01:21:50,350
clever magician who literally
can control this in real time

1467
01:21:50,350 --> 01:21:51,590
and, you know, alter their
things.

1468
01:21:51,590 --> 01:21:56,310
But then if you put the cards
100 billion billion miles away,

1469
01:21:56,710 --> 01:21:59,910
I mean, you know, now you're
just trying to insulate to say

1470
01:21:59,910 --> 01:22:02,710
I'm going to try and get rid of
the possibility of this kind of

1471
01:22:02,710 --> 01:22:06,190
funny business by isolating
these three things in the in

1472
01:22:06,190 --> 01:22:08,590
these different labs and so on.
But even that doesn't help.

1473
01:22:11,310 --> 01:22:14,710
Something nonlocal is going on
some way.

1474
01:22:16,540 --> 01:22:19,100
What goes on?
You've got these separated labs.

1475
01:22:19,100 --> 01:22:22,260
It has to be that what goes on
in one lab, the choices that are

1476
01:22:22,260 --> 01:22:25,340
made in one lab, the experiment
that's done in one lab, has a

1477
01:22:25,540 --> 01:22:27,740
physical effect on what happens
in the other lab.

1478
01:22:28,820 --> 01:22:30,300
That's what physicists don't
want to believe.

1479
01:22:30,300 --> 01:22:32,460
But you know Bell proved a
theorem.

1480
01:22:32,820 --> 01:22:36,140
Yeah, and that that non locality
of that spooky action in the

1481
01:22:36,140 --> 01:22:40,900
distances as Einstein calls it,
I mean, that's precisely what.

1482
01:22:41,700 --> 01:22:43,940
Through the world in the storm
and put everybody into this.

1483
01:22:44,060 --> 01:22:46,300
And that's what Einstein hated
about quantum theory.

1484
01:22:46,300 --> 01:22:49,140
As I say this over and people
think they always, you know,

1485
01:22:49,140 --> 01:22:52,700
repeat, oh, I don't think God
plays dice.

1486
01:22:52,700 --> 01:22:56,140
As if what Einstein was worried
about was the the indeterminism

1487
01:22:56,140 --> 01:22:58,460
of quantum mechanics.
And he says very clearly, very

1488
01:22:58,460 --> 01:23:01,020
very clearly in his letters, No,
that's not what I'm worried

1489
01:23:01,020 --> 01:23:02,180
about.
I'm worried about the spooky

1490
01:23:02,180 --> 01:23:05,100
action of distance.
I'm worried about the idea that

1491
01:23:05,100 --> 01:23:08,540
an experiment done over here can
have an instantaneous effect

1492
01:23:08,540 --> 01:23:13,200
arbitrarily far away.
That's what worried me and and

1493
01:23:13,280 --> 01:23:17,560
that's the precise thing Bell
says, Okay, if I have a theory

1494
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:21,240
the way you want Einstein, where
what I do here can't do that.

1495
01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:24,640
Here are some constraints on
what your theory can predict and

1496
01:23:24,640 --> 01:23:29,480
by the way, quantum mechanics
violates those and then by the

1497
01:23:29,480 --> 01:23:32,240
way, which is the important
thing, not what quantum

1498
01:23:32,240 --> 01:23:34,080
mechanics predicts.
The important thing is you go

1499
01:23:34,080 --> 01:23:37,000
into the lab and check and
that's violating.

1500
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:40,480
So I'm sorry, Einstein.
I understand why you wanted what

1501
01:23:40,480 --> 01:23:44,080
you wanted.
But nature has not been kind to

1502
01:23:44,080 --> 01:23:48,320
you, right?
God has been subtle or malicious

1503
01:23:48,320 --> 01:23:51,760
or something, you know, I mean,
you know things aren't working

1504
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:55,840
out you had and again I have no,
I have no problem with Einstein.

1505
01:23:55,840 --> 01:23:59,280
I think in his situation before
you have Bell's theorem.

1506
01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:03,990
His position was perfectly
reasonable, and the responses to

1507
01:24:04,030 --> 01:24:07,190
it by Bohr and so on were
incomprehensible and not

1508
01:24:07,190 --> 01:24:09,990
helpful.
He was raising serious problems

1509
01:24:09,990 --> 01:24:12,430
in a clear way, and they didn't
have good responses to it.

1510
01:24:12,950 --> 01:24:16,310
I think it turns out he was
wrong, Okay, you know, But he

1511
01:24:16,310 --> 01:24:18,510
couldn't have known that he
didn't know about Bell.

1512
01:24:19,990 --> 01:24:22,830
I think, I mean, they're talking
about Einstein, and I mean you

1513
01:24:22,910 --> 01:24:25,430
are primarily involved in the
philosophy and history of

1514
01:24:25,430 --> 01:24:28,020
science.
I just recently watched

1515
01:24:28,020 --> 01:24:29,420
Oppenheimer.
What were your thoughts on that?

1516
01:24:29,980 --> 01:24:31,660
Have you watched?
I haven't seen the movie.

1517
01:24:31,660 --> 01:24:33,860
I mean, I'm in Croatia right
now.

1518
01:24:33,860 --> 01:24:39,820
I will go and see the movie I
did watch because it was

1519
01:24:39,820 --> 01:24:43,900
available here.
There's this documentary the day

1520
01:24:43,900 --> 01:24:48,460
after Trinity that's available
until the end of August on

1521
01:24:48,540 --> 01:24:52,500
Criterion Channel for free.
And it was very interesting

1522
01:24:52,500 --> 01:24:54,300
documentary.
I mean, I didn't know all of

1523
01:24:54,300 --> 01:24:59,640
those details, but I can't
comment on the movie because I

1524
01:24:59,640 --> 01:25:01,480
haven't seen it.
I've read enough to know there's

1525
01:25:01,480 --> 01:25:03,520
some.
They took a few liberties

1526
01:25:03,520 --> 01:25:05,600
historically, especially having
to do with Einstein.

1527
01:25:05,600 --> 01:25:09,280
Yes, you know, it kind of makes
you sad when they do that.

1528
01:25:09,560 --> 01:25:11,200
It does, yeah.
Is that something?

1529
01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:13,040
Is that the type of thing, Tim,
that you'd be looking forward to

1530
01:25:13,040 --> 01:25:15,520
watch though?
Oh yeah, I'm very much, I mean

1531
01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:18,840
I'm very just because the the
reviews of the movie have been

1532
01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:22,000
very good.
I mean, things like the cinema

1533
01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:23,400
photography are supposed to be
great.

1534
01:25:23,400 --> 01:25:26,240
That has nothing to do with the
subject matter and it's

1535
01:25:26,240 --> 01:25:30,800
certainly a very interesting
historical episode and and quite

1536
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:35,480
honestly watching the
documentary it it, it also

1537
01:25:35,480 --> 01:25:39,760
shakes you up because politics
has not changed and you see how

1538
01:25:39,800 --> 01:25:42,960
powerful just politics is,
right?

1539
01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:47,520
Politics against the truth as we
have with climate change and you

1540
01:25:47,520 --> 01:25:50,920
know various other things right.
People have certain political

1541
01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:53,600
views that are usually rooted in
their self-interest.

1542
01:25:54,520 --> 01:25:56,800
I don't want to admit that
smoking causes cancer.

1543
01:25:56,800 --> 01:25:58,000
Why?
Because I'm making a pile of

1544
01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:00,800
money selling tobacco.
I don't want to admit that that

1545
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:02,440
we're in a deep climate crisis.
Why?

1546
01:26:02,440 --> 01:26:05,960
Because I'm making a pile of
money selling oil or coal or

1547
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:09,160
whatever.
I mean obvious self interested

1548
01:26:09,160 --> 01:26:12,000
motivations and then they attack
the scientists who are telling

1549
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:14,720
you, you know, we're in trouble
here.

1550
01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:16,280
I mean look at what happened in
COVID.

1551
01:26:16,280 --> 01:26:19,960
It's hard people who spend their
lives doing nothing but studying

1552
01:26:20,440 --> 01:26:25,730
immunology and and and and you
know how pandemics spread so

1553
01:26:25,730 --> 01:26:28,930
that they could help us out and
and this kind of thing.

1554
01:26:29,290 --> 01:26:31,930
There was a book called the Hot
Zone that came out.

1555
01:26:32,090 --> 01:26:35,250
It was about Ebola.
It came out in the late 90s and

1556
01:26:35,250 --> 01:26:37,050
it scared the pants off
everybody.

1557
01:26:37,050 --> 01:26:41,290
And it said look there will be
these emerging viruses and

1558
01:26:41,290 --> 01:26:42,330
eventually we're going to get
them.

1559
01:26:42,330 --> 01:26:44,490
They're going to jump to the
human population and if they

1560
01:26:44,490 --> 01:26:46,410
have certain characteristics,
they're going to kill a lot of

1561
01:26:46,410 --> 01:26:51,730
people, be worried and and then
people for political reasons

1562
01:26:52,150 --> 01:26:54,750
decide to attack the scientists.
I mean, it's just it's

1563
01:26:54,750 --> 01:26:56,110
horrifying.
It is.

1564
01:26:56,110 --> 01:26:57,830
It's quite scary to see how that
works.

1565
01:26:58,990 --> 01:27:01,790
The I mean particularly when you
watch, when you when you know

1566
01:27:01,790 --> 01:27:04,310
the story of open army, you know
that I mean until he decides to

1567
01:27:04,350 --> 01:27:05,950
ask them questions about making
the bomb.

1568
01:27:05,950 --> 01:27:07,910
I mean, using the bomb,
actually, that's when he becomes

1569
01:27:07,910 --> 01:27:11,670
a communist it immediately.
He was the guy who got the thing

1570
01:27:11,710 --> 01:27:12,590
built.
Yeah.

1571
01:27:13,990 --> 01:27:17,670
And he did it, you know, in
service of what he of the

1572
01:27:17,670 --> 01:27:21,470
country and of the cause that
the country was united behind.

1573
01:27:21,980 --> 01:27:24,860
And then you say, gosh, he's
some leftist, so I'm not gonna

1574
01:27:24,860 --> 01:27:26,300
trust him.
What are you talking about?

1575
01:27:27,540 --> 01:27:29,660
Proved himself.
Yeah.

1576
01:27:30,540 --> 01:27:35,380
Are there any other great
philosophical slash science

1577
01:27:35,380 --> 01:27:38,260
movies that you think except for
I know you love 2001?

1578
01:27:39,940 --> 01:27:41,540
Yeah.
Anything else like Interstellar?

1579
01:27:41,540 --> 01:27:42,940
Anything else that you don't
find?

1580
01:27:42,940 --> 01:27:47,620
Really.
You know, I mean people, people

1581
01:27:47,620 --> 01:27:51,540
like Interstellar because they
say, oh, it kind of accurately

1582
01:27:51,540 --> 01:27:57,700
portrays the effects of general
relativity and that Kip Thorne

1583
01:27:57,700 --> 01:27:59,060
was involved or something like
that.

1584
01:27:59,340 --> 01:28:01,740
Of course it does.
I mean it doesn't really in a

1585
01:28:01,740 --> 01:28:03,540
practical way those people would
be dead.

1586
01:28:03,620 --> 01:28:04,740
Not going to go on that, you
know.

1587
01:28:04,740 --> 01:28:06,460
I mean, they're just going to
die, you know?

1588
01:28:07,180 --> 01:28:11,340
So you know, they they they,
it's kind of, I've got my scifi,

1589
01:28:11,380 --> 01:28:15,610
you know, thing and then I dress
it up with a little bit of of of

1590
01:28:15,610 --> 01:28:17,370
stuff that looks like proper
physics.

1591
01:28:18,850 --> 01:28:21,250
I think there's even a book
called Kip Thorne's Science of

1592
01:28:21,250 --> 01:28:24,930
Interstellar.
I mean, but, you know, it's a

1593
01:28:24,930 --> 01:28:26,370
way of getting people
interested.

1594
01:28:26,370 --> 01:28:28,610
And maybe if they're interested,
they'll then find out what the

1595
01:28:28,610 --> 01:28:33,450
real story is.
I yeah, I I I'm not.

1596
01:28:33,850 --> 01:28:35,970
I'm not fond.
I mean, there are two things I'm

1597
01:28:36,090 --> 01:28:39,290
really not fond of, which I've
talked about before in in.

1598
01:28:40,080 --> 01:28:43,920
I'm not fond of of movies that
are logically incoherent, which

1599
01:28:44,400 --> 01:28:46,600
that's just logic.
And that happens in time

1600
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:49,080
travels.
Most time travel stories, right,

1601
01:28:49,080 --> 01:28:51,040
They just don't make logical
sense.

1602
01:28:52,640 --> 01:28:55,440
And then you appreciate the ones
that do, the ones where they're

1603
01:28:55,440 --> 01:28:59,280
careful about it, like 12
Monkeys, you know, they're

1604
01:28:59,280 --> 01:29:03,810
careful about it and they
understand what the what an

1605
01:29:03,810 --> 01:29:07,250
actual coherent time travel as
in you know, all you zombies,

1606
01:29:07,530 --> 01:29:10,290
the the science fiction writers,
some of them cared about, they

1607
01:29:10,290 --> 01:29:13,010
were very careful.
Here is a coherent time travel

1608
01:29:13,010 --> 01:29:15,370
story.
I happen to believe that time

1609
01:29:15,370 --> 01:29:16,850
travel is not physically
possible.

1610
01:29:16,850 --> 01:29:18,330
So I don't bring physics into
that.

1611
01:29:18,330 --> 01:29:21,050
But just violating logic really
gets my dander up.

1612
01:29:22,210 --> 01:29:25,050
I mean you, you understand why
they're doing it.

1613
01:29:25,370 --> 01:29:28,970
Often these things are are
really interested in

1614
01:29:28,970 --> 01:29:32,040
counterfactuals, right.
They're interested in what There

1615
01:29:32,040 --> 01:29:34,640
was a bunch of movies that came
out that were inspired by chaos

1616
01:29:34,720 --> 01:29:40,440
theory, Run, Roll or Run?
Where?

1617
01:29:40,440 --> 01:29:42,920
Yeah, some, you know, you tell
the story.

1618
01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:47,120
I mean, run, Roll or Run was
actually inspired by a wonderful

1619
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:50,760
movie by early movie by
Christoph Kyozlovski, which is a

1620
01:29:50,760 --> 01:29:54,360
much better movie with the same
structure called Gosh, I Can't

1621
01:29:54,360 --> 01:29:58,490
Remember the Name, sorry.
But again, it tells the same

1622
01:29:58,490 --> 01:30:03,010
Story 3 different ways with a
tiny little difference in the

1623
01:30:03,010 --> 01:30:05,650
beginning, a seemingly
irrelevant difference in the

1624
01:30:05,650 --> 01:30:08,810
beginning, having pinball
effects, ramifications that lead

1625
01:30:08,810 --> 01:30:13,050
to entirely different outcomes.
Now what?

1626
01:30:13,050 --> 01:30:16,730
What those movies are really
interested in is

1627
01:30:16,730 --> 01:30:18,570
counterfactuals.
What if?

1628
01:30:19,050 --> 01:30:21,410
What if This had been a little
different, right.

1629
01:30:22,030 --> 01:30:24,990
This is you know, for want of a
nail, the the the horseshoe was

1630
01:30:24,990 --> 01:30:27,230
lost and for want of a rider,
blah blah blah.

1631
01:30:27,270 --> 01:30:33,910
You know, can these tiny effects
amplify up and and in chaos all

1632
01:30:33,910 --> 01:30:34,790
of them do.
Right?

1633
01:30:34,950 --> 01:30:37,950
Or typically they do you you
certainly can find cases where

1634
01:30:37,950 --> 01:30:41,150
they do but then if it's chaotic
kind of any little change would

1635
01:30:41,150 --> 01:30:44,390
lead to a very different outcome
and and so that makes you think,

1636
01:30:44,390 --> 01:30:46,550
gosh what if this had been
slightly different, but people

1637
01:30:46,550 --> 01:30:48,350
think about this all the time.
What if I hadn't?

1638
01:30:48,870 --> 01:30:50,950
You know, what if I decided to
go to the movies that day?

1639
01:30:50,950 --> 01:30:53,790
I never would have met this
person who I am now.

1640
01:30:53,830 --> 01:30:56,270
You know, the rest of my life
depends upon having met this

1641
01:30:56,270 --> 01:30:58,230
person.
All of that depended on what was

1642
01:30:58,230 --> 01:31:03,030
kind of a random choice.
That's an interesting reflection

1643
01:31:03,030 --> 01:31:05,710
about life.
It's not particularly about

1644
01:31:05,710 --> 01:31:06,630
physics.
It's about life.

1645
01:31:09,590 --> 01:31:12,830
There, there's a there's one,
I'll just mention one movie that

1646
01:31:12,830 --> 01:31:17,020
I kind of was very science
fictiony, but I like it's The

1647
01:31:17,020 --> 01:31:18,980
Prestige.
I love the prestige.

1648
01:31:19,900 --> 01:31:21,740
You know, I I think that's a
wonderful move.

1649
01:31:21,980 --> 01:31:24,460
It is.
It has its science fiction E bit

1650
01:31:24,460 --> 01:31:27,700
to it, but then it has stuff
about personal identity and

1651
01:31:27,700 --> 01:31:30,140
other philosophical issues, and
it's just a beautiful, you know,

1652
01:31:30,140 --> 01:31:31,940
I find that a beautiful.
Move.

1653
01:31:31,940 --> 01:31:33,860
I mean, I think, yeah,
Christopher Knowle, when he does

1654
01:31:33,860 --> 01:31:36,300
make forms, he tries his best to
incorporate the science.

1655
01:31:36,300 --> 01:31:37,580
But obviously it's.
I mean, it's cinema.

1656
01:31:37,580 --> 01:31:39,300
You can't really.
Yeah.

1657
01:31:39,300 --> 01:31:42,740
As specific as as people, well
as we'd want them to be in terms

1658
01:31:42,740 --> 01:31:45,680
of logical coherence.
I believe you mentioned

1659
01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:47,520
something just now, but
regarding time because your work

1660
01:31:47,520 --> 01:31:48,960
focuses on space and time as
well.

1661
01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:52,640
Now talk to me about that.
Why the physics behind why

1662
01:31:52,640 --> 01:31:56,800
that's impossible?
The time traveling and well, I

1663
01:31:56,840 --> 01:32:01,040
mean the the bad time travel
stories like Back to the Future

1664
01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:03,080
are impossible for obvious
reasons.

1665
01:32:03,080 --> 01:32:07,200
Namely, of course you can't
change the past because it only

1666
01:32:07,240 --> 01:32:13,080
happens once It the past is
whatever it was.

1667
01:32:13,610 --> 01:32:17,450
Now, that doesn't mean this is a
very kind of distinction

1668
01:32:17,450 --> 01:32:19,050
philosophers are just trained to
make.

1669
01:32:19,290 --> 01:32:23,490
It doesn't mean logically you
couldn't influence the past.

1670
01:32:23,850 --> 01:32:29,330
So if I could go back in time
and do things, those things

1671
01:32:29,330 --> 01:32:32,530
would have consequences and and
some of what happened in the

1672
01:32:32,530 --> 01:32:38,810
past would would be a a a causal
consequence of what I decide to

1673
01:32:38,810 --> 01:32:40,530
do now.
I get into The Time Machine.

1674
01:32:41,500 --> 01:32:46,300
So there there's not and this is
what 12 Monkeys has and so on

1675
01:32:46,300 --> 01:32:49,380
And all you zombies.
Yeah, there's backward

1676
01:32:49,420 --> 01:32:52,620
influence, causal influence.
But that doesn't mean you can

1677
01:32:52,620 --> 01:32:56,260
change the past as if the past
happened the first time around

1678
01:32:56,260 --> 01:32:59,340
this way and then the second
time around a different way.

1679
01:32:59,340 --> 01:33:03,380
Because you know, now Marty
Mcfly's father is a big tough

1680
01:33:03,380 --> 01:33:05,100
guy and the first time around he
wasn't.

1681
01:33:05,100 --> 01:33:07,500
It doesn't make any sense.
It only happened once, right.

1682
01:33:07,660 --> 01:33:11,450
This is just a logical problem,
you know, changing.

1683
01:33:12,210 --> 01:33:14,250
For something to change, you
have to have two different

1684
01:33:14,250 --> 01:33:19,090
versions of it that both exist
and the past only happened once.

1685
01:33:19,250 --> 01:33:21,770
So in this case, you're not
really opening up another world,

1686
01:33:21,770 --> 01:33:26,090
so there's no multiple.
I mean, look, this idea in Back

1687
01:33:26,090 --> 01:33:27,810
to the Future when they're
sitting there looking at the

1688
01:33:27,810 --> 01:33:31,410
pictures and people are
disappearing out of the picture.

1689
01:33:31,690 --> 01:33:33,250
I mean, this is just stupid,
right?

1690
01:33:33,250 --> 01:33:36,080
I mean, this just doesn't make
any sense at all, right?

1691
01:33:36,320 --> 01:33:40,080
It it you can't tell any
coherent story about that.

1692
01:33:40,480 --> 01:33:44,480
It's just as if the present is
going on right now.

1693
01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:49,600
I I don't know you, you know,
it's just it it it's just loopy,

1694
01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:54,160
right.
So I I that kind of thing.

1695
01:33:54,160 --> 01:33:57,240
Because I'm trained.
I mean, my professional training

1696
01:33:57,240 --> 01:34:02,340
is to point out incoherences and
inconsistencies, and in movies

1697
01:34:02,340 --> 01:34:05,100
like that, they're just littered
all over the place and the whole

1698
01:34:05,100 --> 01:34:07,620
plot depends on them.
And after a while they grade on

1699
01:34:07,620 --> 01:34:09,340
you, right?
And then when you see something

1700
01:34:09,340 --> 01:34:12,300
where people have done it right,
you really appreciate the effort

1701
01:34:12,300 --> 01:34:15,710
they put into it.
So the whole possible world

1702
01:34:15,710 --> 01:34:18,950
hypothesis, you're not really on
board with it in terms of no.

1703
01:34:18,950 --> 01:34:23,830
But even if I were on board,
look for A no, I'm not B.

1704
01:34:24,070 --> 01:34:26,270
Even if I were.
Sometimes people say this, they

1705
01:34:26,270 --> 01:34:30,670
say, oh, it's OK that you go
into the past and as it were, do

1706
01:34:30,670 --> 01:34:33,070
something that makes a different
past because now you're in a

1707
01:34:33,070 --> 01:34:35,110
different world.
But then you didn't go into your

1708
01:34:35,110 --> 01:34:38,590
past, you went somewhere else.
You're going having an influence

1709
01:34:38,590 --> 01:34:41,630
somewhere else.
OK, you can do that.

1710
01:34:41,630 --> 01:34:43,820
Fine.
But don't think you're going

1711
01:34:43,820 --> 01:34:45,660
back and affecting your past.
You're not.

1712
01:34:46,580 --> 01:34:48,260
You're affecting somebody else's
past.

1713
01:34:48,260 --> 01:34:50,620
I don't know.
Of course we can do that.

1714
01:34:50,620 --> 01:34:53,260
Everything I do now affects the
past of all the people who are

1715
01:34:53,260 --> 01:34:55,780
going to, you know, are going to
come next year.

1716
01:34:57,180 --> 01:34:58,860
Yeah.
So, so you're not actually

1717
01:34:58,860 --> 01:35:01,020
opening up these pockets of
multiple worlds and different

1718
01:35:01,020 --> 01:35:03,980
variations of yeah, I mean all
of that like, oh, I'm going to

1719
01:35:03,980 --> 01:35:07,780
be, you know, into the spider
verse, blah, blah, blah.

1720
01:35:07,780 --> 01:35:13,450
Right.
Again, these are these, you

1721
01:35:13,450 --> 01:35:15,370
know, everything, everywhere,
all at once.

1722
01:35:15,370 --> 01:35:17,610
Everybody loves this many world
stuff.

1723
01:35:18,210 --> 01:35:20,810
Why are they interested?
Because it's physics.

1724
01:35:20,810 --> 01:35:24,410
No, they're interested.
Again, because it allows a

1725
01:35:24,490 --> 01:35:29,970
visual way or narrative way to
discuss different possibilities.

1726
01:35:29,970 --> 01:35:33,450
I believe there are lots of
different ways the world could

1727
01:35:33,450 --> 01:35:36,950
have been.
And I believe, yeah, there are

1728
01:35:36,950 --> 01:35:39,790
lots of ways that were very,
very similar, right,

1729
01:35:39,790 --> 01:35:42,870
Macroscopically, exactly similar
to my childhood.

1730
01:35:43,190 --> 01:35:46,630
That because of some tiny little
change somewhere and the thing

1731
01:35:46,630 --> 01:35:50,190
amplifying up would have gone in
an entirely different direction.

1732
01:35:51,870 --> 01:35:56,790
And and that's, I mean that's
the topic of of, you know,

1733
01:35:56,910 --> 01:35:58,750
Robert Frost, the road not
taken.

1734
01:35:58,750 --> 01:36:01,870
You're always haunted by what
could have been and you'll never

1735
01:36:01,870 --> 01:36:04,230
know.
That's why you're haunted by it.

1736
01:36:04,230 --> 01:36:09,240
You'll never know.
With that in mind, that's part

1737
01:36:09,240 --> 01:36:10,640
of human condition.
Sorry.

1738
01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:12,720
Sorry, sorry for interrupting
you.

1739
01:36:12,720 --> 01:36:14,080
They.
With that in mind, what are your

1740
01:36:14,080 --> 01:36:17,560
thoughts on, I mean on the
physical world's impact on free

1741
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:19,760
will?
Do you think they're compatible?

1742
01:36:19,760 --> 01:36:22,720
Do you think they're not?
Yeah, I'm a again, I'm a

1743
01:36:22,720 --> 01:36:26,240
compatible list about free will.
I don't think that the world,

1744
01:36:26,240 --> 01:36:29,640
the physics of the world being
deterministic, derogates from

1745
01:36:29,640 --> 01:36:34,140
the possibility of free will at
all, and in fact it's just the

1746
01:36:34,140 --> 01:36:35,700
opposite.
There's something Hume pointed

1747
01:36:35,700 --> 01:36:39,100
out, that the world has to be
pretty well deterministic.

1748
01:36:39,140 --> 01:36:41,540
Maybe not perfectly, but very
reliably.

1749
01:36:41,540 --> 01:36:45,860
Kind of close to deterministic,
even for free will to exist.

1750
01:36:45,900 --> 01:36:51,940
Because if people's actions are
not deterministically or nearly

1751
01:36:51,940 --> 01:36:56,960
deterministically connected to
their decisions, then you can't

1752
01:36:56,960 --> 01:36:58,440
blame them for their actions,
right?

1753
01:36:58,440 --> 01:37:01,840
It's only because we take their
actions to be evidence of what

1754
01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:05,520
they were thinking and the way
they deliberated and the values

1755
01:37:05,520 --> 01:37:09,360
that they had that we think we
can punish them for their

1756
01:37:09,360 --> 01:37:11,840
actions, Hume says.
If there weren't a strong

1757
01:37:11,840 --> 01:37:14,960
connection between your
motivations and your beliefs and

1758
01:37:14,960 --> 01:37:18,520
everything else in your actions,
then you'd be as innocent as a

1759
01:37:18,520 --> 01:37:21,760
newborn babe after having
committed a murder, right?

1760
01:37:23,340 --> 01:37:27,060
So in fact, the way we think
about free will, you know the

1761
01:37:27,060 --> 01:37:29,780
thing that people don't talk
about and and it's because the

1762
01:37:30,140 --> 01:37:34,060
the physics level is the wrong
level to talk about this free

1763
01:37:34,060 --> 01:37:38,420
will in the way we care about it
depends on the liberation.

1764
01:37:39,420 --> 01:37:44,820
It depends on a person believing
they have different possible

1765
01:37:44,860 --> 01:37:49,370
actions they can take and
thinking okay, if I do this,

1766
01:37:49,370 --> 01:37:51,330
then this will happen.
If I do this then this will

1767
01:37:51,330 --> 01:37:53,570
happen or might happen.
Okay.

1768
01:37:53,770 --> 01:37:58,290
And then looking at all of those
and deliberate and thinking of

1769
01:37:58,290 --> 01:38:03,570
these options that I have which
is best and then doing the thing

1770
01:38:03,570 --> 01:38:08,410
they decide is best.
That's deliberate in so far And.

1771
01:38:08,410 --> 01:38:12,010
And that's the kind of thing you
can absolutely If someone coldly

1772
01:38:12,010 --> 01:38:15,130
deliberates like that and makes
a choice on the base of that

1773
01:38:15,130 --> 01:38:18,710
deliberation, then you can
praise them to the skies if they

1774
01:38:18,710 --> 01:38:20,870
did something good and put them
in jail if they did something

1775
01:38:20,870 --> 01:38:21,310
bad.
Right.

1776
01:38:21,310 --> 01:38:23,630
If what they were doing was
considering, you know, robbing a

1777
01:38:23,630 --> 01:38:26,390
bank and shooting the bank
teller in the process and they

1778
01:38:26,430 --> 01:38:28,870
thought, yeah, I can do that and
look, then this will make it

1779
01:38:28,870 --> 01:38:31,190
more likely I get away and blah,
blah, blah, yeah, put them in

1780
01:38:31,190 --> 01:38:35,070
jail.
Right insofar as you start to

1781
01:38:35,070 --> 01:38:39,070
chip away at that.
We all, we all believe in the

1782
01:38:39,070 --> 01:38:43,510
law believes responsibility gets
chipped away too.

1783
01:38:43,510 --> 01:38:46,940
That's why if something's done
in hot blood where you're not

1784
01:38:46,940 --> 01:38:49,380
deliberating, you're not coolly
deliberating, you're just

1785
01:38:49,380 --> 01:38:53,140
reacting in some emotional way,
that's often taken to be a

1786
01:38:53,140 --> 01:38:56,540
reason not to punish the person
as strongly as someone who does

1787
01:38:56,540 --> 01:38:59,820
it in cold blood.
That's reflected in the law, I

1788
01:38:59,820 --> 01:39:00,500
think.
That's right.

1789
01:39:00,740 --> 01:39:03,300
And then you get down to things
that don't deliberate at all,

1790
01:39:03,420 --> 01:39:04,100
right?
I don't.

1791
01:39:04,100 --> 01:39:05,700
I don't think lobsters
deliberate.

1792
01:39:05,780 --> 01:39:08,500
I don't think, you know, rocks
certainly don't deliberate,

1793
01:39:08,500 --> 01:39:09,700
right.
That's why we don't blame them

1794
01:39:09,700 --> 01:39:12,620
for anything.
You would also say a rock

1795
01:39:12,620 --> 01:39:14,820
doesn't have free will because
it doesn't have a will at all.

1796
01:39:14,820 --> 01:39:18,520
It doesn't have a volition that
requires representing to

1797
01:39:18,520 --> 01:39:21,280
yourself, yourself, doing
various things.

1798
01:39:23,160 --> 01:39:27,800
So the issues about the nature
of free will are all up there.

1799
01:39:27,800 --> 01:39:30,360
They're at the level of
psychology, they're at the level

1800
01:39:30,360 --> 01:39:32,520
of what's going on in somebody's
head.

1801
01:39:32,760 --> 01:39:35,920
But what's going on in their
head can perfectly well be

1802
01:39:35,920 --> 01:39:39,480
governed by a deterministic
physics at the level of atoms.

1803
01:39:39,480 --> 01:39:43,090
Why not, you know?
Yeah, because I was going to say

1804
01:39:43,130 --> 01:39:46,210
a lot of that is touching on on
psychological aspects of it and

1805
01:39:46,210 --> 01:39:51,010
you get to like Greg Caruso, the
Pier Boom, etc, who talk about

1806
01:39:51,010 --> 01:39:53,290
hard incompatibilism and the
fact that blameworthiness or

1807
01:39:53,290 --> 01:39:56,730
praise with you is worthiness
actually is a problem.

1808
01:39:56,890 --> 01:40:00,210
I mean we're technically putting
praise and blame on to beings

1809
01:40:00,210 --> 01:40:03,050
that technically don't have free
will in this sense.

1810
01:40:03,050 --> 01:40:06,530
So is there a physical argument
for that on the atomic scale

1811
01:40:06,530 --> 01:40:07,770
that you?
I would.

1812
01:40:07,890 --> 01:40:10,450
I just wouldn't understand why
someone, if I sit here and

1813
01:40:10,450 --> 01:40:14,430
coldly deliver it and say, you
know, I'm breeding, I want some

1814
01:40:14,430 --> 01:40:17,830
money, I'm going to go rob a
bank, I'm going to shoot some

1815
01:40:17,830 --> 01:40:20,070
people in the process because I
think it's more likely for me to

1816
01:40:20,070 --> 01:40:22,590
get away.
I understand that.

1817
01:40:22,590 --> 01:40:24,310
I understand what I'm doing is
against the law.

1818
01:40:24,350 --> 01:40:27,510
I understand the people will be
killed, but Gee, to me that

1819
01:40:27,510 --> 01:40:29,310
looks like a good deal because
I'm probably going to end up

1820
01:40:29,310 --> 01:40:33,310
wealthy and then I go do it.
Why are you responsible for

1821
01:40:33,310 --> 01:40:34,350
that?
What takes away your

1822
01:40:34,350 --> 01:40:36,270
responsibility?
Physics.

1823
01:40:37,250 --> 01:40:39,370
A big argument that you know.
I mean, why?

1824
01:40:39,370 --> 01:40:41,610
Why would anybody think it does?
What?

1825
01:40:41,610 --> 01:40:43,050
What?
What's the argument there?

1826
01:40:43,130 --> 01:40:46,370
They they use, I think they use,
Thomas Nagle's paper and Moral

1827
01:40:46,370 --> 01:40:48,290
Luck as a big foundational
paper.

1828
01:40:49,050 --> 01:40:51,050
But moral luck is a different
issue.

1829
01:40:51,410 --> 01:40:55,810
Moral.
It is true that often we praise

1830
01:40:55,850 --> 01:41:00,770
people or blame them for things
that were out of their control

1831
01:41:00,850 --> 01:41:03,370
in a way that they couldn't
deliberate about them.

1832
01:41:03,970 --> 01:41:08,120
They didn't know about them.
I mean, if you the center to

1833
01:41:08,520 --> 01:41:13,160
blaming someone or praising them
is did they go through a process

1834
01:41:13,160 --> 01:41:17,840
of deliberate choice?
And in the cases, in certain

1835
01:41:17,840 --> 01:41:28,760
cases of moral luck, we more
strongly punish one person than

1836
01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:31,910
another, even though their
deliberative process were the

1837
01:41:31,910 --> 01:41:33,750
same, right.
So yeah, I mean, just take this

1838
01:41:33,750 --> 01:41:35,150
example.
I'm, I'm late.

1839
01:41:35,350 --> 01:41:39,070
It's kind of late at night.
I want to get home more quickly

1840
01:41:39,070 --> 01:41:41,790
just because I'm tired.
I'm coming up at a stop sign and

1841
01:41:41,790 --> 01:41:44,150
I say, oh, what the hell,
there's not much traffic now.

1842
01:41:44,510 --> 01:41:47,670
I'm just going to run the stop
sign so I can get home 5 seconds

1843
01:41:47,670 --> 01:41:50,790
early.
And I deliberate on that and I'd

1844
01:41:50,790 --> 01:41:52,310
say, yeah, that's the choice I'm
going to make.

1845
01:41:52,630 --> 01:41:56,100
And one person there, nobody
there, they go straight through,

1846
01:41:56,100 --> 01:41:58,620
nobody gets hurt.
Maybe the cops catch them, but

1847
01:41:58,620 --> 01:42:01,100
they get get them for running a
a stop sign.

1848
01:42:01,420 --> 01:42:03,500
The other person runs somebody
over.

1849
01:42:05,060 --> 01:42:11,220
Now, I think it's correct to say
as in as a moral evaluation of

1850
01:42:11,220 --> 01:42:13,380
their moral character, they're
identical.

1851
01:42:15,220 --> 01:42:17,580
One person gets punished much
more than the other.

1852
01:42:17,580 --> 01:42:19,180
Why?
Because the punishment is not

1853
01:42:19,180 --> 01:42:21,420
supposed to be a judgment about
their moral character, that's

1854
01:42:21,420 --> 01:42:23,060
why.
Because one person killed

1855
01:42:23,060 --> 01:42:27,730
somebody, right.
We punish people and praise them

1856
01:42:28,050 --> 01:42:30,210
in part because of the effect
they have.

1857
01:42:30,650 --> 01:42:33,730
One person killed somebody?
Yeah.

1858
01:42:35,250 --> 01:42:37,610
Put them in jail longer.
I mean, you know that that's

1859
01:42:37,730 --> 01:42:40,050
perfectly natural.
Nobody ever said that.

1860
01:42:40,050 --> 01:42:44,770
The legal system's point is to
make evaluations of moral

1861
01:42:44,770 --> 01:42:48,650
character.
It may come in, but it's not the

1862
01:42:48,650 --> 01:42:51,130
whole of it.
A lot of it is judgments of how

1863
01:42:51,130 --> 01:42:53,530
much harm you did.
So the punishment fits the crime

1864
01:42:53,530 --> 01:42:54,770
in this case.
Yeah.

1865
01:42:55,370 --> 01:42:58,290
So what does that have to do?
I mean, that's a fact.

1866
01:42:58,690 --> 01:43:02,650
And you could say the one person
when there was nobody there,

1867
01:43:02,650 --> 01:43:05,730
they ran over.
They had moral luck because

1868
01:43:05,730 --> 01:43:07,610
they're not.
Maybe they get a fine, but

1869
01:43:07,610 --> 01:43:09,490
they're not going to go to jail
for 20 years.

1870
01:43:10,090 --> 01:43:12,050
Okay, Fine.
I mean, that's an observation.

1871
01:43:12,780 --> 01:43:14,460
I don't think this shows there's
anything wrong with the legal

1872
01:43:14,460 --> 01:43:16,300
system.
I don't think that I don't know

1873
01:43:16,460 --> 01:43:20,060
what any of that has to do with
free will in the stated

1874
01:43:20,060 --> 01:43:22,980
situation.
They both made a perfectly free,

1875
01:43:22,980 --> 01:43:25,100
deliberate decision to run that
sign.

1876
01:43:25,300 --> 01:43:27,700
Yeah, I think that's
understanding that it involves

1877
01:43:27,700 --> 01:43:29,780
some danger.
I think that case is considered

1878
01:43:29,860 --> 01:43:34,020
circumstantial, like I can't
remember the exact philosophy, I

1879
01:43:34,020 --> 01:43:35,500
don't know.
But that's, I mean that's an

1880
01:43:35,500 --> 01:43:39,410
example where you say the the
amount of praise and blame we

1881
01:43:39,410 --> 01:43:43,410
give somebody is not just a
function of our moral, our

1882
01:43:43,410 --> 01:43:45,130
evaluation of their moral
character.

1883
01:43:45,290 --> 01:43:47,810
Yes, that's right.
And this is something else goes

1884
01:43:47,810 --> 01:43:48,890
into it.
What else goes into it?

1885
01:43:48,890 --> 01:43:51,210
Well, the effects go into it.
That's what goes into it.

1886
01:43:51,290 --> 01:43:53,490
Yeah.
The other one is I think

1887
01:43:53,490 --> 01:43:55,210
constitutive.
I can't remember luck, I think

1888
01:43:55,210 --> 01:43:57,130
it's constitutive like way.
So they'll take it further by

1889
01:43:57,130 --> 01:43:59,970
saying something like.
Well, one of those people

1890
01:43:59,970 --> 01:44:04,530
perhaps grew up genetically
predisposed to alcoholism, drug

1891
01:44:04,530 --> 01:44:06,530
abuse, etc.
Grew up in a rough neighborhood,

1892
01:44:06,530 --> 01:44:09,210
rough family, and then their
decisions are far less

1893
01:44:09,210 --> 01:44:14,410
deliberate because of these
preconceived factors that

1894
01:44:14,410 --> 01:44:17,650
dictate their behavior.
Well, look, I mean, you have to

1895
01:44:17,650 --> 01:44:19,850
be clear what you're arguing
there, you.

1896
01:44:20,250 --> 01:44:22,410
First of all, I don't know why
I'm not meaning you.

1897
01:44:23,090 --> 01:44:24,730
One making the argument is
arguing.

1898
01:44:26,010 --> 01:44:28,130
You could be making the argument
literally.

1899
01:44:28,130 --> 01:44:30,690
These were not deliberate
decisions, as I said, as you do,

1900
01:44:30,690 --> 01:44:33,810
when you say you do something in
hot blood, you're literally not

1901
01:44:33,810 --> 01:44:37,210
deliberating, You're not sitting
down and doing a list of pros

1902
01:44:37,210 --> 01:44:39,570
and cons, right?
You're just reacting in some

1903
01:44:39,570 --> 01:44:42,370
very emotional way.
We do tend to think of that in

1904
01:44:42,370 --> 01:44:46,570
the law as an extenuating
circumstance.

1905
01:44:46,570 --> 01:44:48,050
You're you're you're going to go
to jail.

1906
01:44:48,290 --> 01:44:54,930
Less to say, but to say someone
came from a bad background or

1907
01:44:54,930 --> 01:44:58,250
whatever, therefore it's less
deliberate.

1908
01:44:58,250 --> 01:44:59,730
No, it might be even more
deliberate.

1909
01:44:59,730 --> 01:45:01,850
I mean, who knows?
It's the background doesn't

1910
01:45:02,210 --> 01:45:05,050
doesn't speak to the question of
how deliberate was it.

1911
01:45:06,250 --> 01:45:09,250
It's rather this idea.
People say, Oh yeah, this is a

1912
01:45:09,250 --> 01:45:11,370
very bad person.
They did it completely

1913
01:45:11,370 --> 01:45:13,730
deliberately because they're
greedy and they don't care about

1914
01:45:13,730 --> 01:45:15,890
other people and they couldn't
care less if they killed

1915
01:45:15,890 --> 01:45:17,370
somebody and they thought they'd
get away with it.

1916
01:45:18,060 --> 01:45:20,820
But Gee, the only reason they're
that way is because.

1917
01:45:20,820 --> 01:45:22,980
And now you list something
because of their childhood or

1918
01:45:22,980 --> 01:45:24,900
because of their genetics, or
because it's got to be because

1919
01:45:24,900 --> 01:45:26,300
of something.
It didn't come out of nowhere.

1920
01:45:27,580 --> 01:45:29,460
Sure, it came from somewhere.
So what?

1921
01:45:30,380 --> 01:45:32,660
Why is that relevant?
The person before me is the

1922
01:45:32,660 --> 01:45:34,500
person before me.
You're telling me they're a bad

1923
01:45:34,500 --> 01:45:38,140
person because they deliberately
did this because they have

1924
01:45:38,140 --> 01:45:40,860
horrible values in their danger
to society, put them in jail.

1925
01:45:41,380 --> 01:45:43,620
Why does it matter how they got
that way do?

1926
01:45:44,420 --> 01:45:46,820
You think it's quantifiable,
that deliberate, that

1927
01:45:46,820 --> 01:45:49,770
deliberateness.
It's, well, it's quantifiable to

1928
01:45:49,770 --> 01:45:51,330
an extent.
I don't mean you can get it down

1929
01:45:51,330 --> 01:45:55,370
to a real number, but certainly
there's a question, a purely

1930
01:45:55,370 --> 01:45:59,530
factual question before somebody
does something, what options did

1931
01:45:59,530 --> 01:46:03,810
they consider themselves to have
right of actions they could

1932
01:46:03,810 --> 01:46:05,370
take?
If you're driving a car, you

1933
01:46:05,450 --> 01:46:08,250
know, you better know you could
put the brakes on and stop at

1934
01:46:08,250 --> 01:46:11,220
the stop sign, right?
Or you could just not put the

1935
01:46:11,220 --> 01:46:13,380
brakes on and just plow right
through the stop sign.

1936
01:46:14,220 --> 01:46:17,700
So how many options did they
consider and how much time did

1937
01:46:17,700 --> 01:46:20,900
they spend considering them?
And then the the a big question

1938
01:46:20,900 --> 01:46:25,260
is what what algorithm did they
use in making a judgment about

1939
01:46:25,260 --> 01:46:29,380
which was the best option?
Because if that said, look, I am

1940
01:46:29,380 --> 01:46:33,260
going to count the danger, I'm
putting other people in at zero,

1941
01:46:34,020 --> 01:46:36,300
I don't care.
I understand that by running

1942
01:46:36,300 --> 01:46:39,510
this red, this this, this stop
sign, I'm in principle

1943
01:46:39,510 --> 01:46:42,550
endangering somebody who might
be, you know, in the street.

1944
01:46:42,670 --> 01:46:44,430
I don't care.
Okay.

1945
01:46:44,430 --> 01:46:46,550
Then you're a really terrible
person, right?

1946
01:46:46,550 --> 01:46:51,110
You're just a horrible person
now, you know.

1947
01:46:51,110 --> 01:46:54,550
So certainly you can, you can
both quantify how much

1948
01:46:54,550 --> 01:46:57,790
deliberation went in and what
was deliberated about and then

1949
01:46:57,790 --> 01:47:01,030
importantly, what values were
put on the outcome of the

1950
01:47:01,030 --> 01:47:02,830
deliberation to lead you to a
decision.

1951
01:47:03,590 --> 01:47:05,230
And all those things are
quantifiable.

1952
01:47:05,230 --> 01:47:09,100
You can do more or less of it,
and it can be more or less good

1953
01:47:10,740 --> 01:47:15,620
morally blame worthy or moral or
or morally appraised worthy.

1954
01:47:15,900 --> 01:47:19,340
Do you think these morals or our
values and judgments, do you

1955
01:47:19,340 --> 01:47:22,060
think there is a sort of an
ontological framework for this?

1956
01:47:22,060 --> 01:47:23,980
So that's not just our views on
it.

1957
01:47:23,980 --> 01:47:25,660
It's not relative.
It's sort of there is an

1958
01:47:25,660 --> 01:47:27,100
ingrained ethics in the
universe.

1959
01:47:27,100 --> 01:47:31,660
So there is this.
I mean this is I'm a Platonist

1960
01:47:31,740 --> 01:47:34,300
about at least certain parts of
morality.

1961
01:47:34,300 --> 01:47:37,800
I think the good right?
I mean, I think, and let me put

1962
01:47:37,800 --> 01:47:41,280
it in a way that I hope will
resonate with people, I think

1963
01:47:42,040 --> 01:47:48,160
society has made objective moral
progress in getting rid of

1964
01:47:48,320 --> 01:47:52,640
chattel slavery, in getting rid
of discriminations in the law

1965
01:47:53,040 --> 01:47:57,360
based on race, in getting rid of
discriminations in the law based

1966
01:47:57,360 --> 01:48:03,320
on gender, right.
I think we are a juster society.

1967
01:48:03,640 --> 01:48:05,520
Because of that.
We've gotten better.

1968
01:48:05,840 --> 01:48:10,040
We've made moral progress.
That's not because we regard

1969
01:48:10,040 --> 01:48:12,440
ourselves as better or anything
that.

1970
01:48:13,040 --> 01:48:16,040
That's because those are better.
Those are juster, right?

1971
01:48:16,040 --> 01:48:19,800
Those laws are juster than the
ones that used to be.

1972
01:48:19,800 --> 01:48:22,200
It's not that we've reached
perfection and there's certainly

1973
01:48:22,200 --> 01:48:25,520
lots of flaws if somebody says
no, no, no, I don't think we've

1974
01:48:25,520 --> 01:48:27,880
made any.
And let me give you a contrast.

1975
01:48:28,360 --> 01:48:32,900
If you ask me, have the visual
arts made in progress, right?

1976
01:48:32,900 --> 01:48:38,940
Is painting now better than it
was in the 18th century?

1977
01:48:40,420 --> 01:48:42,620
Obviously, I don't even know
exactly what we mean, and I'm

1978
01:48:42,620 --> 01:48:44,660
not even sure.
I don't think music has gotten

1979
01:48:44,660 --> 01:48:46,860
better since Bach and Beethoven
to tell you the truth.

1980
01:48:48,500 --> 01:48:52,660
But you know this, this has
fashion gotten better right?

1981
01:48:52,660 --> 01:48:55,940
Does it get better when lapels
go from being fat to skinny or

1982
01:48:55,940 --> 01:48:58,740
ties or you know, whatever.
I mean no, this, these, these

1983
01:48:58,740 --> 01:49:01,540
are not the kinds of things
where objective progress is the

1984
01:49:01,540 --> 01:49:06,700
right word but in in case of
morality it is.

1985
01:49:07,460 --> 01:49:11,540
We have gotten better.
Society has become just it's.

1986
01:49:11,540 --> 01:49:14,580
Unfortunately, there are people
who want to take it backwards

1987
01:49:14,580 --> 01:49:16,660
because it's in their
self-interest to do so.

1988
01:49:18,090 --> 01:49:19,730
I.
Was going to say because I, I, I

1989
01:49:19,730 --> 01:49:21,770
mean, I firmly agree with you.
I mean I think that certain

1990
01:49:21,770 --> 01:49:25,050
things, for example, slavery,
etc, racial discrimination

1991
01:49:25,050 --> 01:49:27,730
biases.
I mean, it's clear that we've

1992
01:49:27,730 --> 01:49:29,610
gotten better with this.
But then there's also times

1993
01:49:29,610 --> 01:49:32,130
where you notice how we progress
and sometimes, let's say, the

1994
01:49:32,130 --> 01:49:36,090
left can go too far or the right
can go too far and everything

1995
01:49:36,090 --> 01:49:39,770
can go wrong.
I mean to say to say that there

1996
01:49:39,770 --> 01:49:41,210
is such a thing as moral
progress.

1997
01:49:41,250 --> 01:49:43,690
I mean, if you think objectively
there can be moral progress, you

1998
01:49:43,690 --> 01:49:46,410
also think objectively there can
be moral backsliding.

1999
01:49:47,330 --> 01:49:49,170
Things can go too far.
It can go in the wrong

2000
01:49:49,170 --> 01:49:51,450
direction.
You could implement policies

2001
01:49:51,450 --> 01:49:54,410
that, you know, maybe they were
kind of thought of in a good

2002
01:49:54,410 --> 01:49:57,250
hearted way, but their actual
consequences are bad.

2003
01:49:58,090 --> 01:50:00,970
Nobody wants to say that
everything is progress.

2004
01:50:01,330 --> 01:50:04,410
Nobody wants to say that people
don't go too far and then make

2005
01:50:04,410 --> 01:50:05,650
mistakes.
Of course they do.

2006
01:50:07,690 --> 01:50:09,570
But.
But then it's a strong argument

2007
01:50:09,570 --> 01:50:14,050
if somebody, if somehow somebody
says, gosh, here's an argument

2008
01:50:14,050 --> 01:50:17,010
against your view that there's
that there are moral absolutes,

2009
01:50:17,090 --> 01:50:19,450
that sometimes the left goes too
far.

2010
01:50:19,850 --> 01:50:22,130
Why is that?
In fact, it's more evidence.

2011
01:50:22,130 --> 01:50:24,690
It's more grist for my nil.
Because when you say the left

2012
01:50:24,690 --> 01:50:27,690
goes too far, that's supposed to
also be an objective judgment,

2013
01:50:27,730 --> 01:50:28,890
right?
It's supposed to be a judgment.

2014
01:50:29,490 --> 01:50:32,290
The left is now proposing
policies that take us morally

2015
01:50:32,290 --> 01:50:33,730
backward.
That can happen.

2016
01:50:33,730 --> 01:50:35,130
I don't think the left is
perfect.

2017
01:50:36,250 --> 01:50:38,210
Why would I?
I mean, you know, you wouldn't

2018
01:50:38,210 --> 01:50:40,730
have to be, you'd have to not be
paying attention if you thought

2019
01:50:40,730 --> 01:50:44,290
any political group was perfect
in what they proposed.

2020
01:50:45,650 --> 01:50:48,090
Well, that's Tim.
This podcast is called Mind Body

2021
01:50:48,090 --> 01:50:50,890
Solution and it explores the
nature of consciousness,

2022
01:50:50,890 --> 01:50:53,930
reality, free will, morality,
mental health, and more.

2023
01:50:53,930 --> 01:50:56,690
I feel like we've covered a lot
of those topics altogether.

2024
01:50:57,410 --> 01:51:00,090
Are there any topics in general
with regards to consciousness,

2025
01:51:00,090 --> 01:51:03,810
free will, morality that you
feel you want to just give your

2026
01:51:03,810 --> 01:51:06,410
loss bet on?
Is there anything that's been on

2027
01:51:06,410 --> 01:51:08,050
your mind that you've been
wanting to discuss and you

2028
01:51:08,050 --> 01:51:09,370
haven't?
No.

2029
01:51:09,370 --> 01:51:11,250
I I I think I hit the high
notes.

2030
01:51:11,410 --> 01:51:13,970
I mean, people will probably
think I said a bunch of things I

2031
01:51:13,970 --> 01:51:18,210
didn't back up, which another
few hours to get into the nitty

2032
01:51:18,210 --> 01:51:21,570
gritty of all the argumentation.
But I think as far as the

2033
01:51:21,570 --> 01:51:23,370
headlines go, I feel happy
about.

2034
01:51:23,490 --> 01:51:24,850
If you feel good about it,
thanks.

2035
01:51:24,970 --> 01:51:26,970
You know Tim, it's been, it's
been an absolute pleasure.

2036
01:51:26,970 --> 01:51:30,210
I mean your your work is is is
utterly fascinating and I'll

2037
01:51:30,210 --> 01:51:32,490
continue to read and and delve
deep.

2038
01:51:32,530 --> 01:51:33,850
Thank you so much for joining
me.

2039
01:51:34,410 --> 01:51:37,770
OK let me just before we sign
off because it's something I

2040
01:51:37,770 --> 01:51:41,420
need to do is make a pitch.
Yeah, go ahead.

2041
01:51:41,460 --> 01:51:44,220
I've been doing.
So I I I'm at right now sitting

2042
01:51:44,220 --> 01:51:48,100
in Croatia in the lecture room
the the debt left dur room which

2043
01:51:48,420 --> 01:51:52,140
is actually I've told people.
How is good at the moment by the

2044
01:51:52,140 --> 01:51:53,900
way?
It was great that you're there

2045
01:51:53,900 --> 01:51:57,940
because it helped with our time
zones and scheduling and those

2046
01:51:57,940 --> 01:52:01,060
are actually drawings of of the
GHC experiment on the back of

2047
01:52:01,060 --> 01:52:05,780
the wall and and and so this is
at the John Bell Institute, what

2048
01:52:05,780 --> 01:52:07,900
we hope will be the permanent
John Bell Institute.

2049
01:52:07,900 --> 01:52:12,460
But we don't own it and we're
trying very with great

2050
01:52:12,620 --> 01:52:16,580
expeditiousness to try and raise
funds and and find a way to to

2051
01:52:16,620 --> 01:52:19,860
to to make this permanent.
And so if anybody's interested

2052
01:52:19,860 --> 01:52:23,820
in this stuff, we need help.
We would appreciate any amount

2053
01:52:23,820 --> 01:52:26,300
of help.
And there's a Go Fund Me John

2054
01:52:26,300 --> 01:52:31,100
Bell Institute or you can go to
the John bellinstitute.org

2055
01:52:31,620 --> 01:52:33,820
website.
There's a link to the Go fund me

2056
01:52:33,820 --> 01:52:36,580
and so on so.
Definitely, I'll I'll put a link

2057
01:52:36,580 --> 01:52:37,900
to that in the description as
well.

2058
01:52:39,020 --> 01:52:41,140
No, no, Tim, it's been, it's
been such a pleasure.

2059
01:52:41,340 --> 01:52:42,820
Any final ones before we close
off?

2060
01:52:43,380 --> 01:52:45,100
No.
I mean, I've had fun.

2061
01:52:45,100 --> 01:52:45,940
I hope.
I hope.

2062
01:52:46,220 --> 01:52:50,020
I hope you have, I mean.
These are always so fun for me.

2063
01:52:50,020 --> 01:52:51,900
I mean, this is just such a
great exploration.

2064
01:52:52,140 --> 01:52:54,820
Your work is wonderful and I'm
glad you had fun.

2065
01:52:55,660 --> 01:52:56,660
OK.
Thanks.