Thomas Metzinger: Is The Self An Illusion? Minimal Phenomenal Selfhood & Epistemic Agent Model

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Thomas, I've been looking
forward to interviewing you for

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such a long time.
I mean, it's an absolute honor

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and privilege first of all, and
I think the best way to start a

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podcast with you would be to
just go straight into the deep

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end.
Let's start with two

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definitions, and maybe we can
differentiate between these two

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concepts.
Talk about the similarities, but

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let's define what consciousness
is to you and what the self is.

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Right, So consciousness is a
folk psychological umbrella

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term.
Nobody knows what it means.

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You can always tell when
neuroscientists start their

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papers and they want to make
some bold claims and they don't

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know what to say in the opening
paragraph, they always mumble

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something about what it is like
and Tom Nagle, and nobody knows

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what that actually means, what
it is like, what that is, what

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is to be explained there, and a
lot of people.

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I'd like to talk about qualia
and 95 of 95% of them wouldn't

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be able to say what that is.
Where it comes from, I I think

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qualia don't exist.
So one part, as you know, I've

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been in that consciousness
community for 3-4 decades of my

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academic life.
I'm one of the people who

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founded the Association for the
Scientific Study of

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Consciousness.
And there's a persisting

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problem.
There are naturalist

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philosophers like myself who
think that naturalism is not an

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ideology but a research program.
And that research program

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consists in reformulating
classical philosophical

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questions about consciousness in
a way so that they become

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tractable for the empirical
sciences.

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So there's a continuity.
It's not an ideology because

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naturalist philosophers would be
completely open if exactly

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empirical research shows there
is something that cannot be

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explained.
So if you're an anti

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reductionist, if you believe
there is something that is

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mysterious about consciousness
and unexplainable and principle,

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then you will have.
To become a naturalist because

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it's your goal to describe that
what can't be explained as

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precisely as possible and you
want to make progress.

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You want to describe that what
is unexplainable more precisely

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than it has ever been described
in the history before.

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So if you're an anti
reductionist, you have to become

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a neurocomputational modeler, a
neuroscientist and you have to

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follow the naturalist program.
The persisting problem is we

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don't know what the explan on
them is.

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If you think about it more
carefully, nobody can really say

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what it is that needs to be
explained.

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Here's an example from our own
life.

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So, like 20-4 years ago, I spent
a wonderful year at UC San Diego

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with the Churchlands and.
On a few occasions I went to

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lunch in the faculty club with
Francis Crick, one of the most

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famous Noble laureates we ever
had, and he wants to crack the

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problem of consciousness after
having cracked the problem of

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life.
And I still remember one

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conversation which got out of
hand where I basically said yes,

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but.
Francis, what is it that you

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want to explain?
And then he said in the

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forthcoming book I've described
that conversation.

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You know, you philosophers,
you've had more than 2000 years

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time.
And I'll tell you what, if you

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want to make a contribution, the
best thing would be you just

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shut up.
We're going to kill this thing

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in neuroscience in the next two
decades.

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And I said, yeah, that's great,
I'm all for it.

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I'm a naturalist.
Founded the Association for the

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Scientific Study of
Consciousness.

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What is it that you're trying to
explain?

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Then he mumbled something about
that.

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For strategic reasons in the
early phases of a research

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program, it's not advisable to
have two narrow definitions of

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your explanandum.
I said yeah, of course I

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understand you don't want to
have over fitting philosophical

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models of consciousness.
And all that nonsense, but it

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just tell me what is it that you
want to explain And then you got

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really angry at me.
You have this true this very day

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whole people, whole groups of
neuroscientists have made a

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career in the neuroscience of
consciousness and there has been

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great progress, but nobody can
say what exactly it is they're

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trying to explain.
And so that's.

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We have an illdefined folk
psychological term,

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consciousness, which has a long
history.

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For instance, it has a Latin
history over centuries,

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concientia.
It has Greek precursors, the

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natives.
There are a lot of connotations

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in different cultures and
contexts, and it's not quite

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clear what we mean.
So there's a job for

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philosophers in this research
community still laying

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conceptual foundations.
Now you asked about the self.

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That was your second question.
No such thing.

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You know me.
So I just had you have to cut

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this out.
No problem.

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I got 2 messages telling me I
have.

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Recording with you in 10
minutes.

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I also got the same let.
Me let me just.

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I was wondering what that sound
was.

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Actually, there was a frog.
But everything down OK, so

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what's the self?
You don't have one.

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You couldn't have one.
The most naive way of

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approaching it is that people
talk about their self.

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But this couldn't be the case,
because then it would be

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something that you own.
You have an ownership

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relationship to that self.
This couldn't be the case, and

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that already shows how confused
things get.

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If there is a self in a certain
way, you are it.

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There must be an identity and
I'm all OK.

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With people saying for instance,
OK then let's call what you call

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the phenomenal self model and
the brain itself in future, in

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the future.
And if you want to, you know,

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change our rules for speaking
about the self in that way, in a

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scientifically grounded way, you
can do this.

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But then it means that is
something that is highly

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intermittent.
That is super unstable during

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ram sleep, dreaming phases that
doesn't exist during non ram

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sleep.
It is something that has

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multiple layers, is highly
incoherent over time, and most

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of all not something that, as
German philosophers would say,

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hold itself in existence by
itself.

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I think the proper English term
would be ontological self

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subsistence.
So cells are not elementary

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building blocks.
I think of the universe or

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substances in the classical
metaphysical sense of a

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substance or some intrinsic
essence or something.

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They are high level phenomena if
you want to treat whole

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biological organisms as cells.
Then they are pretty impermanent

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high level phenomena.
If you want to just speak of the

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experience of self
consciousness, which as I think

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locally supervenes on on brain
properties at one and the same,

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then it is an even more abstract
a high level features some

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computational property of a
biological nervous system.

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If we want to talk like that,
that's fine with me.

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But that's of course never what
we meant by self.

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Yeah, when when I read Ego
Tunnel and being No One, I

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remember just thinking that this
is, this is pretty much where my

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work was aligning to it.
At that point, I remember

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thinking this is perfect for my
dissertation.

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I remember thinking there's so
many chunks I could possibly

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quote out of this out of these
books.

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And I and I did.
I remember referencing you and

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taking a lot of your work in.
I mean you specifically.

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You delved right in there.
You went into the psychiatric

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phenomenon.
You spoke about every aspect of

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consciousness, the unity,
transparency, self

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perspectivalness, temporality,
first person and third person

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experience.
Yes, yes.

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When you think about these
concepts and how philosophers

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have debated this over time, the
the story of the mind body

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problem, what would be your
story if you had to tell someone

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the story of the mind body
problem, what story would you

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tell people?
The reason why I'm asking this,

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Thomas, is because I find that
it's interesting to see how

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somebody has come to understand
this problem over the years and

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how it evolved their own view of
what consciousness is today.

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Well, first of all I think, and
that is something that is

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frequently overlooked.
Is that there is a pre

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theoretical mind body problem
and a pre philosophical mind

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body problem in which which all
of us can feel which people have

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felt over the centuries in
different cultures.

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Usually, one would say the
modern history of the mind body

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debate starts 350 years ago with
Descartes and substance dualism.

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But of course there are deep
historical roots also in other

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cultures.
But what makes Descartes view so

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very appealing to beings like us
is actually, I think, a feature

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of our naturally evolved self
model in the brain.

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And I'll tell you an anecdote to
illustrate this The history of

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the Mind body Problem in my own
life.

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I thought in about the 5th
semester.

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I thought philosophy was absurd.
I thought these professors

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should be different than
professors of chemistry, so they

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should be wise and impressive.
And I found them very

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narcissistic and pretentious as
a young guy.

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And I thought this was a very
absurd academic enterprise.

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And then?
I participated in a seminar

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which where we looked at 2
lesser known works by Descartes,

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The Treaties on Men Long and the
Passions of the Soul.

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And there was a young lecturer
at the time who made me see

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something for the first time.
So we looked very carefully at

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the passages where, Descartes
says.

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In what's in the pineal gland?
That's where the soul interacts

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with the brain.
And then he pointed something

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out said if mental entities have
no spatial properties as

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Descartes says, and only bodies
corporeal entities are divisible

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in space and have spatial
properties, then it follows.

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That there cannot be a place in
the brain where the soul

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interacts with the physical
body.

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That is a completely wrong
question, a wrong research

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program.
Where is the locus of

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interaction between mind and
matter?

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It cannot be like this if one of
the two principles only has

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properties in time.
The mind unfolds in time, but no

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special properties and that's
when I got home.

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That's when I had the feeling as
a young man that is a

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theoretical problem that is
worth of my attention.

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Because at the same time, 1977,
there was popper and actress the

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self and its brain.
And they did do exactly the same

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thing, you know, with.
Their theory of three worlds and

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they have this speculative noble
laureate, John Ecklers, the

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speculative model of the liaison
brain.

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Today this would be the
minimally sufficient neural

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correlate of consciousness, and
the idea is that is where it is.

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Now if it's really non spatial,
this couldn't be the case, but

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then I started thinking about
the human self.

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And I realize that for all of
us, there are some parts in my

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phenomenology.
My robust, robust sense of

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selfhood which are spatial.
My limb movements, my gut

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feelings, my visor spatial
perspective and everything, and

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other things are really not
located in the body image.

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My thoughts.
The emotions are very

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interesting.
Moods are very interesting.

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I'll just start.
If one takes one's own conscious

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experience seriously, I make the
following claim.

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If one really doesn't talk like
one has learned to talk.

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If you see, say a top down
psychophysical interaction, I

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decide to lift my hand and I
lift my hand.

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I can observe.
Something I could call the

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decision and I feel my arm
moving, but what I do not

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observe is the actual causal
link.

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We talk like this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know my

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decision, my intentions cause my
behavior.

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We have grown up in this
language game, but is our

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phenomenology really like this?
Or if somebody pinches my arm

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and I feel a pain.
Is there a phenomenology of

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upward causation?
Really, I think there's a gap,

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and I have, as you know, a long
story to tell, that the human

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self model evolved because we
had to jump from branch to

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branch and run away from
predators.

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And in the beginning, it was
important to navigate and

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control a body as a whole to
integrate our sensory

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perceptions.
All spatial things.

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Then we evolved social
properties, language, abstract

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representations which were not
really grounded in that body

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image anymore.
And that is why what I mean by

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the pre philosophical mind body
problem, before we start even to

232
00:16:27,140 --> 00:16:32,020
think about it, we can feel it.
Beings like us.

233
00:16:32,860 --> 00:16:36,060
Beings on another planet with
another evolutionary history

234
00:16:36,220 --> 00:16:41,260
might not have that kind of
intuitive dissonance, that

235
00:16:41,260 --> 00:16:45,100
intuitive mind body problem.
But what is happening?

236
00:16:46,060 --> 00:16:53,940
Other beings might not be able
to imagine their mind as

237
00:16:53,940 --> 00:16:58,580
independently flying away,
floating in somewhere after

238
00:16:58,580 --> 00:17:05,410
their body has died, but for us?
We have, these philosophers also

239
00:17:05,410 --> 00:17:08,810
say, modal intuitions,
intuitions about what is

240
00:17:08,810 --> 00:17:12,609
possible and what is necessary.
And for us?

241
00:17:12,609 --> 00:17:16,290
For us, it seems to come
necessary that my mental

242
00:17:16,290 --> 00:17:22,569
processes could somehow go on
without body perception of any

243
00:17:22,569 --> 00:17:26,010
kind, a space, spatial or
sensory perception.

244
00:17:27,369 --> 00:17:31,330
And these.
These intuitions are grounded, I

245
00:17:31,330 --> 00:17:35,130
say, in our biological
evolution, in computational

246
00:17:35,130 --> 00:17:40,450
properties in our brain, and
they make Cartesian intuitions.

247
00:17:40,730 --> 00:17:45,050
There is something that doesn't
belong to that animal machine

248
00:17:45,050 --> 00:17:48,410
body.
They're so plausible.

249
00:17:48,850 --> 00:17:53,650
And if I read the card now, I
mean, I don't believe it, but

250
00:17:53,650 --> 00:17:56,930
the card still has a strong
appeal to me.

251
00:17:58,530 --> 00:18:03,330
And that is because it directly
plays to a representational

252
00:18:03,330 --> 00:18:05,570
divide.
In my phenomenal self model,

253
00:18:05,570 --> 00:18:08,410
that would be my terminology to
explain it.

254
00:18:09,410 --> 00:18:13,850
If that is true, many
philosophical problems might

255
00:18:13,850 --> 00:18:19,450
actually have phenomenological
anchors might actually look like

256
00:18:19,450 --> 00:18:25,610
a deep and important problem to
beings like us because they are

257
00:18:25,610 --> 00:18:28,620
anchored.
In the model of reality that we

258
00:18:28,620 --> 00:18:31,820
have evolved on the history of
this, on the surface of this

259
00:18:31,820 --> 00:18:36,820
planet with these brains, so
that's the pre philosophical

260
00:18:36,820 --> 00:18:40,260
mind body problem.
And then we have of course a

261
00:18:40,260 --> 00:18:47,380
century long history, as you
know too well and I think one

262
00:18:47,380 --> 00:18:54,230
important thing to understand.
The problem of consciousness is

263
00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:58,790
not one problem, it's a bundle
of theoretical issues and a

264
00:18:58,790 --> 00:19:04,070
bundle of more empirical issues.
The mind body problem equally is

265
00:19:04,070 --> 00:19:07,590
not one.
OK, you can say what is the

266
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:11,550
causal and interaction, or what
is the metaphysical

267
00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:14,750
interpretation of correlation
data between brain and mind or

268
00:19:14,750 --> 00:19:19,310
something like that.
But there's a whole how to say a

269
00:19:19,310 --> 00:19:26,780
spectrum of theoretical issues.
Some are very old, like what is

270
00:19:26,780 --> 00:19:30,260
the mechanism of interaction.
Some are very young.

271
00:19:30,260 --> 00:19:35,340
For instance, Daniel Dennett I
think has done us all a great

272
00:19:35,340 --> 00:19:40,860
service in his today brother
Unknown 1969 book content and

273
00:19:40,860 --> 00:19:45,540
consciousness to introduce this
distinction between sub personal

274
00:19:45,540 --> 00:19:49,820
properties and personal
properties beings like us.

275
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,600
And have.
And then there's this whole

276
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:58,960
Donald Davidson story and so on
in the old debate that personal

277
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,120
level properties like the having
of beliefs, the having of

278
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:07,680
intentions and desires can in
principally in principle for

279
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:13,120
conceptual reasons never be
translated down reduced to sub

280
00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:16,960
personal theoretical entities in
the brain or so.

281
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,760
So.
You have multiple distinctions

282
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:26,840
sub personal, personal, what
are, what is causal, what is the

283
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,200
most rational metaphysical
interpretation of the empirical

284
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:35,760
data we have.
And now to come back to you and

285
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,840
psychiatry and being no one, as
you know, I mean, for me it's a

286
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,720
strange experience that you ask
about this because this was

287
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,530
another guy, this was 1/4
century ago.

288
00:20:46,570 --> 00:20:48,050
Right.
And that at some point the

289
00:20:48,050 --> 00:20:49,890
difference in how it's changed
over time.

290
00:20:51,050 --> 00:20:54,610
Yeah.
And you know now I it is a very

291
00:20:55,290 --> 00:20:59,370
many authors know this.
You know, now I will get a very

292
00:20:59,370 --> 00:21:03,010
substantial and angry e-mail
from some Chinese PhD student.

293
00:21:04,890 --> 00:21:12,220
But it was 25 years ago when I
said in the eighth floor of the

294
00:21:12,220 --> 00:21:17,340
Humanities building in at UC San
Diego, opposite to the office of

295
00:21:17,340 --> 00:21:20,860
Paul Churchland, and wrote this.
And now I get all the heat

296
00:21:24,140 --> 00:21:29,860
because people actually can work
with it.

297
00:21:30,020 --> 00:21:35,820
And one of my goals was, I think
philosophers should do that, is

298
00:21:35,820 --> 00:21:39,530
to develop conceptual
instruments and tools that

299
00:21:39,530 --> 00:21:43,250
people in other disciplines can
use.

300
00:21:44,010 --> 00:21:47,970
So if a psychiatrist, and just
like you I have interacted with

301
00:21:48,010 --> 00:21:51,330
psychiatrists a lot during
certain phases of my career,

302
00:21:51,930 --> 00:21:56,930
comes and says that is really
useful, I can use that in my own

303
00:21:56,930 --> 00:21:59,090
research that I don't
understand.

304
00:21:59,410 --> 00:22:03,730
That's nonsensical.
But this idea is really helpful.

305
00:22:04,990 --> 00:22:08,630
Then I've made a contribution,
you know, in interdisciplinary

306
00:22:08,990 --> 00:22:14,110
research and the psychiatric
case studies in being no one,

307
00:22:14,150 --> 00:22:18,350
which I used, which are not of
course not outdated, and one

308
00:22:18,350 --> 00:22:23,630
could do many much more precise
stuff there than I did 25 years

309
00:22:23,630 --> 00:22:26,270
ago.
There's also no computational

310
00:22:26,270 --> 00:22:34,880
psychiatry for instance.
So I wanted just to show what is

311
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:42,120
not necessary, so you know, to
have the more fine grained

312
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:45,080
representational architecture of
the conscious self.

313
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:50,200
Because I realized many
philosophers, at that time

314
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:56,600
excellent analytical armchair
philosophers, just didn't know

315
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,560
what is possible for a human
mind.

316
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,160
Like, I don't know, cotar
syndrome or something like that.

317
00:23:04,940 --> 00:23:07,580
So how does it play a role in
your own work?

318
00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:14,300
So you're are you a psychiatric,
fairly informed philosopher or a

319
00:23:14,300 --> 00:23:20,780
philosophically informed Dr. So
I was There was a time where I

320
00:23:20,780 --> 00:23:23,180
was I thought of being a
psychiatrist.

321
00:23:23,180 --> 00:23:25,460
So I'm currently just a medical
doctor with the masters in

322
00:23:25,460 --> 00:23:29,100
philosophy, but the focus of the
masters was in the philosophy

323
00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:32,520
and ethics of mental health.
So it was primarily while I was

324
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,960
working in psychiatry and doing
this masters.

325
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,600
And it was interesting because
the textbook was the Oxford

326
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:45,200
Textbook and Handbook of
Philosophy of Psychiatry, and

327
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,760
that's a very important thing.
So it was philosophers of mind

328
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,520
should be uniquely intrigued by
psychiatry the same way

329
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,360
psychiatrists should be uniquely
intrigued.

330
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,360
Or what philosophers of mind
have to say.

331
00:23:55,790 --> 00:23:58,790
And and I think that's what drew
me to your work in the 1st place

332
00:23:58,790 --> 00:24:01,590
was because you you were not
just taking philosophical

333
00:24:01,590 --> 00:24:04,070
arguments and discussing these
concepts but you were trying to

334
00:24:04,390 --> 00:24:08,870
practically apply these to the
real world and and and I think

335
00:24:08,870 --> 00:24:10,630
that's what you're currently
doing with your latest book as

336
00:24:10,630 --> 00:24:13,430
well you're trying to find ways
to apply these which we'll

337
00:24:13,430 --> 00:24:16,230
definitely touch on.
But for for me personally I

338
00:24:16,230 --> 00:24:19,190
think I love both.
I love the, I love the search

339
00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:21,630
for these answers.
The philosophical journey, I

340
00:24:21,630 --> 00:24:23,850
would say.
As well as the way this would

341
00:24:23,850 --> 00:24:27,730
impact my own clinical decision
making because yeah, cuz all

342
00:24:27,730 --> 00:24:30,650
these first person subjective
experiences matter when it comes

343
00:24:30,650 --> 00:24:33,730
to treating patients who are
telling me third person

344
00:24:33,810 --> 00:24:37,490
objective stories.
Yes, I think that's very

345
00:24:37,490 --> 00:24:39,290
fundamental and you touch on
that beautifully.

346
00:24:39,290 --> 00:24:42,970
I mean, just by the way, Thomas,
I just wanted to ask cuz you

347
00:24:42,970 --> 00:24:46,610
spoke about Francis Creek.
Before I forget about this and

348
00:24:46,610 --> 00:24:49,170
the big discussion you guys had,
what did you think of David

349
00:24:49,170 --> 00:24:53,900
Chalmers and Christophe Cox?
A final end to the to the whole

350
00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:58,900
debate.
So I didn't go there this year

351
00:24:59,860 --> 00:25:03,900
because I sense this might be
turning to a big self marketing

352
00:25:03,900 --> 00:25:09,340
show there.
But I was of course the guy who

353
00:25:09,380 --> 00:25:15,580
organized ASSC 2.
This was ASSC 26 and firmly put

354
00:25:15,580 --> 00:25:19,460
the society on a map with a huge
conference in Bremen and that

355
00:25:19,460 --> 00:25:22,190
is.
Well, Christopher and Dave

356
00:25:22,390 --> 00:25:27,910
actually created that wager that
that bet they made over a beer

357
00:25:28,470 --> 00:25:30,630
and that was where it was
actually made.

358
00:25:30,630 --> 00:25:33,190
I still remember it was a
horrible experience.

359
00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:38,110
I I worked practically a whole
year of my life on that

360
00:25:38,110 --> 00:25:42,630
conference with 400 people.
And then the computer science

361
00:25:42,630 --> 00:25:48,390
department had the famous Easter
crash and everything was down

362
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,840
for three weeks.
And we had lost all registration

363
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,960
data.
So we didn't know who had paid.

364
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,640
We didn't know who had reserved
a room for what time.

365
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,440
So there were large groups of
students standing when people

366
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,000
were streaming into town and
faking it and say, what's your

367
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:13,480
name, Dr. Naidu.
You had tell me again, you know

368
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:18,180
because we just didn't know how
many bookings we had and and

369
00:26:18,620 --> 00:26:23,420
payments and everything.
And I also know that I had

370
00:26:23,420 --> 00:26:28,620
60,000 marks at the time to
organize the conference and it

371
00:26:28,620 --> 00:26:35,180
cost me 110,000.
And if if that did not, was not

372
00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:39,880
a famous, now deceased, all
neuroscientists who came to my

373
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:44,080
rescue afterwards, I would have
been in big trouble.

374
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,240
So this were when Dave and
Christophe were still young guys

375
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:55,760
and I'm making this and yeah, so
I haven't been there.

376
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:05,090
Many people think you know I
have edited this 2000 a book

377
00:27:05,090 --> 00:27:09,290
with the MIT press Neuro
Correlates of Consciousness and

378
00:27:09,690 --> 00:27:12,130
which reflects some
contributions to that

379
00:27:12,130 --> 00:27:14,970
conference.
And many people today think,

380
00:27:15,290 --> 00:27:20,050
I've heard Julio Tononi tell me
this the last time, that the NCC

381
00:27:20,050 --> 00:27:25,690
approach is basically failed now
and that we have an enormous

382
00:27:25,690 --> 00:27:30,370
amount of data, of course about
neuro correlates, but it hasn't

383
00:27:30,370 --> 00:27:32,450
generated the theoretical
breakthrough.

384
00:27:33,090 --> 00:27:37,920
And now of course, a lot of the
smartest young people are giving

385
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:44,720
a lot of work and effort into
computational modeling using car

386
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,760
for instance, mathematical
instruments.

387
00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:55,360
And I think this is where we
might go in the future, which by

388
00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:59,600
the way changes things for young
philosophers.

389
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,980
When I grew up, I got a lot of
trouble with the philosophical

390
00:28:05,980 --> 00:28:10,980
establishment because I said and
I created young people like

391
00:28:10,980 --> 00:28:13,180
this.
You have to be good in one area

392
00:28:13,180 --> 00:28:17,620
in philosophy, and you need an
interdisciplinary foothold just

393
00:28:17,620 --> 00:28:21,340
as you have psychiatry.
There must be 1 area in

394
00:28:21,340 --> 00:28:24,100
neuroscience, like color vision
or dreaming.

395
00:28:24,780 --> 00:28:28,060
That's your second hobby and
where you're absolutely up to

396
00:28:28,060 --> 00:28:30,930
speed in the empirical
literature.

397
00:28:31,210 --> 00:28:35,890
Then it gets interesting.
Or you go have something in AI

398
00:28:36,170 --> 00:28:39,970
or in evolutionary biology, or
in animal consciousness.

399
00:28:40,690 --> 00:28:44,690
And a large part of the
philosophical establishment

400
00:28:45,050 --> 00:28:47,370
didn't want this.
And I could have made a much

401
00:28:47,370 --> 00:28:49,290
better career if I hadn't said
this.

402
00:28:50,450 --> 00:28:56,730
So now things have changed.
If you today, say, a young

403
00:28:56,730 --> 00:29:02,370
philosopher who wants to do
philosophy of mind should have

404
00:29:02,370 --> 00:29:07,290
one foot in neuroscience, it's
almost a bit outdated.

405
00:29:07,650 --> 00:29:12,250
They should have a diploma in
mathematics, you know.

406
00:29:12,570 --> 00:29:18,210
If the journey goes on as I
predict it does, using the free

407
00:29:18,210 --> 00:29:22,370
energy principle and the
conceptual tools involved, then

408
00:29:22,370 --> 00:29:27,340
it simply excludes a lot of the
best young philosophers who

409
00:29:27,340 --> 00:29:31,100
don't have this math, just as I
don't have it at their

410
00:29:31,100 --> 00:29:35,820
fingertips from the debate.
If that's where the edge of

411
00:29:35,820 --> 00:29:41,900
research moves to, this is also
a sociological event.

412
00:29:42,460 --> 00:29:46,580
Because then, you know, when I
was young, many German

413
00:29:46,580 --> 00:29:50,140
philosophers were trying to hide
the fact that they could not

414
00:29:50,500 --> 00:29:54,020
participate in international
debates because their English

415
00:29:54,020 --> 00:29:58,100
wasn't good enough.
But now it could be that you

416
00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:00,660
can't participate because your
math isn't good enough.

417
00:30:01,780 --> 00:30:04,860
And this might also apply to
many psychiatrists.

418
00:30:05,180 --> 00:30:13,500
If this project of computational
psychiatry goes through, I'm not

419
00:30:14,580 --> 00:30:16,940
going to say anything about
psych analysis now.

420
00:30:16,940 --> 00:30:22,970
I'm going to be polite, but a
lot of this stuff is going to

421
00:30:22,970 --> 00:30:28,250
look like some outdated New Age
fantasies or something like

422
00:30:28,250 --> 00:30:33,770
this, some esotericism.
And I must say, in philosophy of

423
00:30:33,770 --> 00:30:36,770
psychiatry.
Tell me what your experience is.

424
00:30:37,610 --> 00:30:42,050
But I've had conflicts with
German psychiatrists who are

425
00:30:42,050 --> 00:30:48,090
very well meaning to, because
there is this branch of

426
00:30:48,090 --> 00:30:54,510
phenomenological psychiatry
where people actually are on the

427
00:30:54,510 --> 00:31:00,990
theory level of 1940, Ludwig
Bins, Wagner, that kind of

428
00:31:00,990 --> 00:31:03,350
thing.
That's where they stopped

429
00:31:03,550 --> 00:31:07,990
thinking about philosophy and
theory, and then they practice a

430
00:31:08,030 --> 00:31:12,590
whole life and they have a
certain subgroup.

431
00:31:12,750 --> 00:31:17,710
You tell me if this is the same
in South Africa psychiatrists

432
00:31:18,790 --> 00:31:24,070
have an anti reductionist
ideology and that's very strong

433
00:31:24,070 --> 00:31:27,190
for them.
It goes together with pop

434
00:31:27,190 --> 00:31:31,990
phenomenology and I think that's
all fine if you believe that.

435
00:31:32,390 --> 00:31:36,670
But what I don't like if
somebody acts out their own

436
00:31:36,670 --> 00:31:40,830
ideology on suffering people, on
people who have a real serious

437
00:31:40,830 --> 00:31:44,830
problem.
In these cases we need just the

438
00:31:44,830 --> 00:31:49,420
best evidence based theories we
have and we have to be super

439
00:31:49,420 --> 00:31:53,180
rational.
But I found in my research

440
00:31:53,180 --> 00:31:57,620
career in interacting with
psychiatrists then many of them

441
00:31:57,620 --> 00:32:06,740
are a little ideology driven and
neither well informed about

442
00:32:07,100 --> 00:32:10,660
empirical facts in
neuropsychology or neuroscience,

443
00:32:11,420 --> 00:32:15,460
nor do they know anything about
current debates in philosophy.

444
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,600
Would something like this be
true in the South Africa?

445
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,400
I think yes, very much so.
I think especially because we're

446
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,840
so culturally diverse here in
South Africa that you tend to

447
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,520
notice when someone from a
different, completely different

448
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,000
background is treating a patient
who completely does not

449
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:31,800
understand what this person's
talking about.

450
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,760
And you see this culture clashes
sort of playing a big role in

451
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,120
how there's complete it's a it's
a very miscommunicated

452
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,120
constantly, and the person who
comes from their own different

453
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,440
culture sort of indoctrinates
the other person.

454
00:32:44,900 --> 00:32:48,220
Or almost talks down to them.
If, if if it's let's say a

455
00:32:48,220 --> 00:32:51,700
Doctor Who's well educated, a
psychiatrist who feels superior

456
00:32:51,700 --> 00:32:54,620
and talks to someone who may
let's say grew up on a farm in

457
00:32:54,620 --> 00:32:59,340
the middle of a region of South
Africa that's very rural and and

458
00:32:59,340 --> 00:33:01,060
and non educated.
And you can't.

459
00:33:01,060 --> 00:33:04,180
And you can tell this the sort
of ideologies that this person

460
00:33:04,180 --> 00:33:06,980
has and is placing on this
person, Perhaps someone of

461
00:33:06,980 --> 00:33:10,100
African culture and descent who
believes in completely different

462
00:33:10,100 --> 00:33:13,060
gods, completely different ways
of living.

463
00:33:13,370 --> 00:33:17,210
Values clash completely and it's
opening up certain spheres of

464
00:33:17,690 --> 00:33:20,690
philosophical debates, something
that there's one known as

465
00:33:21,930 --> 00:33:25,970
African values based practice
where you have to sort of

466
00:33:25,970 --> 00:33:28,050
incorporate values and
understand that even when we

467
00:33:28,050 --> 00:33:32,290
treat patients, we're always
implicitly there's no mativity

468
00:33:32,290 --> 00:33:34,450
applied to everything we do on a
day-to-day basis.

469
00:33:34,450 --> 00:33:36,810
Of course, yeah.
And we can never forget this and

470
00:33:36,810 --> 00:33:39,650
psychiatrists often forget this.
And it was a part of that.

471
00:33:40,010 --> 00:33:42,290
When I learned about this, I
realized the blurry lines

472
00:33:42,290 --> 00:33:44,570
between.
When you dissect psychiatry

473
00:33:44,570 --> 00:33:47,370
philosophically, it really does
change the way you perceive the

474
00:33:47,370 --> 00:33:51,810
field altogether and not you can
actually trust neural correlates

475
00:33:51,810 --> 00:33:54,570
of consciousness, the way we
talk about it or not, and how we

476
00:33:54,570 --> 00:33:57,530
should actually apply this
knowledge that we have.

477
00:33:57,850 --> 00:33:59,810
Because most of the time we
don't really even know the

478
00:33:59,810 --> 00:34:02,970
difference between physical
illness, bodily illness and

479
00:34:02,970 --> 00:34:07,010
mental illness and the direct or
indirect links they really have.

480
00:34:08,130 --> 00:34:10,170
And that makes it very tough on
this side as well.

481
00:34:10,949 --> 00:34:17,350
Yes, you know, at first, when I
first saw something, when I

482
00:34:17,350 --> 00:34:24,830
studied philosophy, it was even
if you wanted to get women, it

483
00:34:24,830 --> 00:34:28,550
was a very important to do
something with psychoanalysis

484
00:34:28,550 --> 00:34:31,510
and Marxism that was the
hottest.

485
00:34:31,510 --> 00:34:34,949
And the cool stuff is where all
the good looking women were.

486
00:34:35,870 --> 00:34:41,739
And I realized that it's a bit
like poetry but the

487
00:34:42,219 --> 00:34:45,659
psychoanalysis but I don't know
what is wrong with it.

488
00:34:45,659 --> 00:34:50,340
And then then then it once in
passing just said this.

489
00:34:50,340 --> 00:34:53,500
We talked about personal level
properties and sub personal

490
00:34:53,500 --> 00:35:00,180
level properties and he said if
you introduce little persons in

491
00:35:00,180 --> 00:35:04,860
the brain or somewhere to
explain personal level

492
00:35:04,860 --> 00:35:08,540
properties you explain nothing.
You've just explained Homunculi

493
00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:13,040
and then he said, and he said,
well, the Super ego and the IT,

494
00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:16,840
these are actually they don't
explain anything because they

495
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,320
are themselves described as
personal level properties.

496
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,080
And that's was some sometimes in
your life somebody just says

497
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:29,920
that in passing and it really
opens a perspective to you.

498
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,720
Now that's when I understood
that this is is really also not

499
00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:38,280
open to improvement, to
empirical improvement.

500
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,640
But to this day, I don't know
about South Africa, but in

501
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,680
Germany and Europe, I mean, it's
firmly established

502
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:52,440
psychoanalysis as a completely
false theory of the human mind

503
00:35:52,800 --> 00:36:00,320
guides therapeutic action.
And I've heard psychiatrists,

504
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,320
friends of mine say, well, as
long as you can make a living

505
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:09,350
and earn money with it, that
long you will have that you

506
00:36:09,350 --> 00:36:13,270
know.
And so psychiatry is actually an

507
00:36:13,270 --> 00:36:18,910
interesting case where people
have, they must have theories of

508
00:36:18,910 --> 00:36:22,590
mind, a theory of what the
conscious mind is, and they try

509
00:36:22,590 --> 00:36:25,630
to heal, they try to alleviate
suffering.

510
00:36:26,510 --> 00:36:31,150
And then there are other people
in philosophy of also theories

511
00:36:31,150 --> 00:36:34,110
of mind who are absolutely
clueless.

512
00:36:34,790 --> 00:36:38,040
You know, if you tell them,
yeah, but you know, you can

513
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,920
consciously experience thoughts
without ownership.

514
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,800
It's not necessary that there is
a thinking self.

515
00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:50,680
I mean, I know times where
colleagues said this is

516
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,600
conceptually excluded.
This cannot be the case in this

517
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,560
world.
So many old fashioned

518
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,880
philosophers have these apriori
assumptions about what is

519
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:09,570
necessary in the human mind and
then nobody listens anymore

520
00:37:09,570 --> 00:37:13,530
because now we have so many
empirical data which shows that

521
00:37:13,530 --> 00:37:17,890
it can be otherwise.
But then again, psychiatrists,

522
00:37:19,570 --> 00:37:24,650
this has to be said, who also
have a very high workload in

523
00:37:24,650 --> 00:37:29,520
their everyday life and are
under pressure and you cannot

524
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,720
really demand from them to read
peer reviewed papers from

525
00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:38,560
analytical philosophy of mind.
It's a difficult situation.

526
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,400
It needs these conceptual
instruments, but they are in

527
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:48,640
this everyday, you know, they
have to make decisions under

528
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,760
time pressure and with great
suffering.

529
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,960
At the time when I was writing
also in German and speaking

530
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,010
about the self model, I often
had patients contacting me,

531
00:38:01,890 --> 00:38:05,370
which was often a harrowing
experience.

532
00:38:05,410 --> 00:38:13,650
So something that's a time back
I had schizophrenics find me out

533
00:38:14,890 --> 00:38:19,650
privately, all their relatives,
and they were seriously

534
00:38:19,650 --> 00:38:21,810
convinced they had a
philosophical problem.

535
00:38:22,530 --> 00:38:27,210
You know, they read The Ego
Tunnel and then I said no,

536
00:38:27,750 --> 00:38:33,150
please listen to me, you have to
go into treatment. 1% of the

537
00:38:33,150 --> 00:38:36,430
world population have this.
And then they said no, no, no,

538
00:38:36,430 --> 00:38:38,990
you don't understand.
I just, I just want to

539
00:38:38,990 --> 00:38:44,590
understand the self model.
I said no, please, it's her

540
00:38:44,590 --> 00:38:51,230
relative in the room and I've
had a lot of moving experience.

541
00:38:51,230 --> 00:38:57,510
For instance, one time I was
invited to the psychiatric

542
00:38:57,510 --> 00:39:00,070
department at the university
clinic of Frankfurt, my

543
00:39:00,070 --> 00:39:02,350
hometown, gave a big talk about
the self model.

544
00:39:04,550 --> 00:39:09,470
And in the course, you know, a
lecture hall of explaining that

545
00:39:09,470 --> 00:39:15,750
there's no such thing as a self.
I realized that a considerable

546
00:39:15,750 --> 00:39:19,750
number of bored patients, and
how do you say in English

547
00:39:19,750 --> 00:39:22,710
they're nightgowns?
Yes.

548
00:39:22,710 --> 00:39:25,640
And they're, you know, they're
comfortable.

549
00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:30,600
House shoes had walked in from
the ward that there were

550
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,760
actually patients sitting in
there and not only psychiatry

551
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:41,640
professors and watching the
faces during my talk, I realized

552
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:47,480
this is not good what I'm doing.
There are some people in this

553
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,040
audience who shouldn't be here,
that they shouldn't.

554
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:55,650
They shouldn't hear that it's
shocking for them and somebody

555
00:39:55,690 --> 00:39:58,690
let them in.
I don't know.

556
00:39:58,690 --> 00:40:01,130
Do you let your patients go to
lectures?

557
00:40:02,530 --> 00:40:06,050
That's what I'm saying.
It's quite it's such a difficult

558
00:40:06,490 --> 00:40:10,010
bridge to sort of tip toe on
because you never know even with

559
00:40:10,170 --> 00:40:12,730
philosophy in general you never
know what type of philosophical

560
00:40:12,730 --> 00:40:14,930
insights might trigger a
psychotic episode.

561
00:40:16,860 --> 00:40:19,020
And I mean there's there's so
many different that's and that's

562
00:40:19,020 --> 00:40:21,860
what my masters focused on and
it really that's what actually

563
00:40:21,860 --> 00:40:24,420
almost swayed me away from
psychiatry because I didn't go

564
00:40:24,420 --> 00:40:26,780
through with it.
Now I just practice as a regular

565
00:40:26,780 --> 00:40:30,420
medical Doctor Who just happens
to have a masters event out that

566
00:40:30,420 --> 00:40:33,660
I'm not really technically I'm
not applying it but I think I'm

567
00:40:33,660 --> 00:40:37,140
always applying it.
But because there's so many

568
00:40:37,140 --> 00:40:39,340
different facets behind this,
how do you approach it

569
00:40:39,340 --> 00:40:40,740
philosophically?
How do you approach it

570
00:40:40,740 --> 00:40:43,540
psychiatrically without ignoring
the philosophy?

571
00:40:43,540 --> 00:40:46,240
Because these two fields are
completely intertwined and we

572
00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:50,360
can never really separate these
two and I think it's to do that.

573
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,960
I think you cannot approach both
of these topics without

574
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,200
including the other.
I often say that when you try

575
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,040
and make a conclusion regarding
the mind body problem to not

576
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:03,160
incorporate the atypical or the
illness side of mind, then

577
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,560
you've complete made a
completely uninformed decision.

578
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,240
And I think that's why it's
great that at the moment you're

579
00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:13,720
applying this all the time and
you mentioned Dennis and this

580
00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:15,920
passing moment and how he did
that to you.

581
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,400
I want when you think about
Thomas your your view on

582
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,800
consciousness altogether because
I know you consider the self to

583
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,480
be an illusion.
I mean we're obviously it's a

584
00:41:25,720 --> 00:41:27,360
phenomenal self model that we've
created.

585
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,600
When you take it far as
consciousness, do you sort of

586
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,520
head towards Dennis definition
of consciousness?

587
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,800
Do you take it to an Illusionism
view of consciousness as well?

588
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:44,420
Well.
I have to confess I'm getting

589
00:41:44,420 --> 00:41:49,700
sidetracked again because
listening to you, I have to make

590
00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:57,860
a footnote first.
My psychology professor friends

591
00:41:58,580 --> 00:42:03,100
all know that they have a large
population of students who come

592
00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:06,460
actually come to university with
a self healing project.

593
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:12,040
In philosophy you do have office
hours too, you know.

594
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:18,680
And the truth is, there is a
small but considerable subset of

595
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:23,720
philosophy students who take the
subjects because they want to

596
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:26,040
find a reason not to commit
suicide.

597
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:32,720
And I have seen this.
Just what you mentioned to study

598
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:40,490
philosophy properly can cause.
Psychological crisis in some

599
00:42:40,490 --> 00:42:46,970
serious young people, some, you
know, for instance, when they

600
00:42:46,970 --> 00:42:52,250
come from Muslim backgrounds or
Catholic households and they are

601
00:42:52,250 --> 00:42:56,770
for the first time confronted
with arguments for atheism or

602
00:42:56,770 --> 00:43:00,370
something like this, and they go
into it with a for a whole

603
00:43:00,370 --> 00:43:03,410
semester.
Seriously, it can create big

604
00:43:03,410 --> 00:43:04,690
problems.
But then.

605
00:43:05,970 --> 00:43:09,610
Of course there are also people
who say it's people from South

606
00:43:09,610 --> 00:43:13,890
Africa who have good arguments
to say that non existence is to

607
00:43:13,890 --> 00:43:21,210
be preferred over existence.
And you will have some young

608
00:43:21,210 --> 00:43:24,730
people with whom this reason
resonates very strongly.

609
00:43:25,810 --> 00:43:30,050
So philosophers know this in
another way.

610
00:43:30,810 --> 00:43:34,170
Now before I get to Illusionism,
I have to say I think the way

611
00:43:34,170 --> 00:43:36,780
out is.
To change the incentive

612
00:43:36,780 --> 00:43:40,420
structure in the educational
system and in universities, we

613
00:43:40,420 --> 00:43:44,660
need something that I have
called died in the rule

614
00:43:44,660 --> 00:43:48,780
interdisciplinarity.
So we need a whole generation of

615
00:43:48,780 --> 00:43:52,820
students who do, for instance,
psychiatry and philosophy in

616
00:43:52,820 --> 00:43:58,060
parallel, but who get rewarded
because it's extra work to be

617
00:43:58,060 --> 00:44:01,500
good in two disciplines at the
same time, who have an incentive

618
00:44:01,500 --> 00:44:04,890
structure to do that.
What we do have is this fake

619
00:44:04,890 --> 00:44:09,130
interdisciplinarity in writing
grants together and we're trying

620
00:44:09,130 --> 00:44:12,130
to get money and then we all
just want as soon as we have the

621
00:44:12,130 --> 00:44:16,130
money, we pursue our own
hobbies, you know, and not that.

622
00:44:16,450 --> 00:44:18,930
So it has.
You actually have to create a

623
00:44:18,930 --> 00:44:21,810
new generation of young people
and if the political system

624
00:44:21,810 --> 00:44:27,730
doesn't manage it, to make it
attractive for them to, you

625
00:44:27,730 --> 00:44:30,730
know.
Be to track research,

626
00:44:30,730 --> 00:44:34,250
personalities, psychiatry and
philosophy and invest the extra

627
00:44:34,250 --> 00:44:39,010
work.
Then they will take other

628
00:44:39,010 --> 00:44:43,570
trajectories in the academic
career universe and you will not

629
00:44:43,570 --> 00:44:47,450
have the psychiatrist you are
asking for Illusionism.

630
00:44:48,210 --> 00:44:56,650
My confession not with Dennet,
but I have perceived this as.

631
00:44:56,990 --> 00:45:00,750
And I may be absolutely wrong.
As one of these constructed

632
00:45:00,750 --> 00:45:06,550
debates, some people organize to
get traction and eventually get

633
00:45:06,550 --> 00:45:08,870
tenure and create a little
debate.

634
00:45:09,910 --> 00:45:13,470
So you can tell me a little bit
about what you lose it because I

635
00:45:13,470 --> 00:45:17,110
really haven't followed the
research like literature.

636
00:45:17,110 --> 00:45:24,920
So where I start is I have.
Sometimes in my popular writings

637
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:29,080
said something that was false
that one shouldn't say.

638
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:34,480
Namely, the self is an illusion.
This is false for at least two

639
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,840
reasons.
One, illusions are somebody's

640
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:43,160
illusions.
Second, if you define your terms

641
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,610
properly, a hallucination.
Would be a sensory

642
00:45:47,610 --> 00:45:52,250
misrepresentation where the
object actually does not exist.

643
00:45:52,290 --> 00:45:57,250
Whatever the voices, whatever
you see, an illusion would be a

644
00:45:57,250 --> 00:46:02,530
sensory misrepresentation, a
distortion where a perceptual

645
00:46:02,530 --> 00:46:04,650
object actually does exist in
the output.

646
00:46:04,650 --> 00:46:08,810
These are the proper definitions
in that sense.

647
00:46:09,290 --> 00:46:13,290
Consciousness cannot be an
illusion in that sense.

648
00:46:13,710 --> 00:46:15,350
So I always had the feeling at
the beginning.

649
00:46:15,350 --> 00:46:19,190
This is a bit flaky, vague right
at the beginning.

650
00:46:19,510 --> 00:46:22,790
I get what they're saying, what
they're trying to get at.

651
00:46:23,750 --> 00:46:33,150
But of course, if you know my
own theory about the PM IR about

652
00:46:33,150 --> 00:46:37,230
the phenomenal model of the
intentionality relationship, I

653
00:46:37,230 --> 00:46:40,790
have said that the self model is
not just.

654
00:46:42,730 --> 00:46:47,850
The body, the emotions, the
thoughts the Organism has, but

655
00:46:47,850 --> 00:46:52,450
that there's actually, in the
human conscious model of

656
00:46:52,450 --> 00:46:56,610
reality, a representation of
what philosophers like Franz

657
00:46:56,610 --> 00:47:00,330
Pantano or Edmund Hussa has
called the error of

658
00:47:00,330 --> 00:47:04,570
intentionality, the
intentionality relationship so

659
00:47:05,130 --> 00:47:08,290
being directed at a perceptual
object.

660
00:47:09,220 --> 00:47:14,500
Or being directed as
satisfaction conditions at an

661
00:47:14,500 --> 00:47:20,300
action goal is actually that is
something that is represented in

662
00:47:20,300 --> 00:47:24,380
us and that is also what a first
person perspective is.

663
00:47:25,180 --> 00:47:33,740
It's very dynamic.
Now of course it is part of most

664
00:47:33,740 --> 00:47:38,780
of our self models that we are
conscious.

665
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:46,320
Right now, and in the
forthcoming book, I will say and

666
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,600
provide empirical evidence that
exactly this is false.

667
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:55,760
It's not you that has the
property of being conscious, but

668
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:00,600
the epistemic space as a whole.
It's just normally I call this

669
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,160
the contraction principle, and
it's maybe a bit too much to go

670
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:08,100
into details here.
It's contracted in normal, non

671
00:48:08,100 --> 00:48:11,100
altered states of consciousness.
It's contracted in the

672
00:48:11,100 --> 00:48:16,940
experience of a knowing self.
I call this an epistemic agent

673
00:48:16,940 --> 00:48:21,340
model.
So the model of an entity that

674
00:48:21,340 --> 00:48:27,900
wants to know, selects goals of
knowing forms concept, directs

675
00:48:27,900 --> 00:48:32,780
its attention that is an agent
that an epistemic agent an

676
00:48:32,820 --> 00:48:36,170
active.
Information hungry system that

677
00:48:36,170 --> 00:48:39,610
tries to know, learn more about
the world than itself.

678
00:48:39,690 --> 00:48:46,170
That's an epistemic agent and an
absolutely central part of our

679
00:48:46,170 --> 00:48:48,650
self model is that epistemic
agent model.

680
00:48:50,650 --> 00:48:56,730
Now you see where this goes, cuz
you also spoke about, when I

681
00:48:57,130 --> 00:49:00,210
think that I was watching one of
your lectures on, you were

682
00:49:00,210 --> 00:49:02,490
talking about M autonomy, the
mental self-control, the veto

683
00:49:02,490 --> 00:49:04,290
control.
And then you did bring this up

684
00:49:04,290 --> 00:49:06,810
at some point.
I remember you did bring up the

685
00:49:06,810 --> 00:49:09,490
fact that we have these
epistemic agent model as well.

686
00:49:10,970 --> 00:49:13,250
Yes.
And was this the lecture you

687
00:49:13,250 --> 00:49:15,810
gave on where you spoke about
wandering minds at that point?

688
00:49:15,810 --> 00:49:19,570
I think so.
Yes, I'm not working in this

689
00:49:19,570 --> 00:49:22,890
field anymore, but I have
published 4 philosophical papers

690
00:49:22,890 --> 00:49:27,180
on mind wandering.
And I'm kind of proud that the

691
00:49:27,220 --> 00:49:32,380
first one is basically the first
one for a century, because I

692
00:49:32,500 --> 00:49:39,140
thought for, especially for
philosophers, it is very

693
00:49:39,140 --> 00:49:44,140
important to take note of the
new empirical research on as

694
00:49:44,140 --> 00:49:47,860
they call a task, unrelated
spontaneous thought, mind

695
00:49:47,860 --> 00:49:53,950
wandering, daydreaming, because.
The very simple fact there are a

696
00:49:53,950 --> 00:49:59,430
lot of details is that we are
not in control of our own

697
00:49:59,430 --> 00:50:03,470
cognitive processes for more
than 50% of our conscious

698
00:50:03,470 --> 00:50:06,590
lifetime.
That's that's a safe

699
00:50:06,590 --> 00:50:12,830
conservative estimate.
And I still remember when a

700
00:50:12,830 --> 00:50:16,350
truly I talked to some eminent
philosophers about mind

701
00:50:16,350 --> 00:50:20,390
wandering and the repeated
collapse of the epistemic agent

702
00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:21,110
model.
So.

703
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,560
I think when you have control
over your focus of attention and

704
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,880
listen to me, you have a stable
epistemic agent model.

705
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,040
But then you very often have a
brief attentional lapse and

706
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,600
think about what you have to do
tomorrow or what your next

707
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,880
question should be.
And then that epistemic agent

708
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,800
model collapses and has to be
reconstructed.

709
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:47,640
So in my view, mind wandering
episodes.

710
00:50:48,790 --> 00:50:52,590
Always begin with a collapse of
the epistemic Asian model.

711
00:50:53,390 --> 00:50:56,310
That doesn't mean that the
Daydream cannot be about a

712
00:50:56,310 --> 00:51:00,110
future epistemic Asian model
that complicates things.

713
00:51:00,630 --> 00:51:04,630
But then you come back to in the
present moment after a certain

714
00:51:04,630 --> 00:51:08,270
time, right?
And I still remember some years

715
00:51:08,270 --> 00:51:11,990
ago I talked to these really
excellent philosophers.

716
00:51:13,030 --> 00:51:16,990
And somebody I really like,
William Seger from Toronto, said

717
00:51:16,990 --> 00:51:20,390
now after the talk, come on now,
this is, I have been listening

718
00:51:20,430 --> 00:51:25,590
to you for 60 minutes.
Are you saying I have not been

719
00:51:25,590 --> 00:51:33,310
listening that that there were
interruptions And I said yes,

720
00:51:33,310 --> 00:51:37,350
maybe a few 100, maybe a couple
of dozen.

721
00:51:38,790 --> 00:51:40,750
And he said.
But you're not.

722
00:51:40,750 --> 00:51:44,230
This is not.
Phenomenologically realistic.

723
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:46,710
You don't say while I'm
listening, have been listening

724
00:51:46,710 --> 00:51:50,430
for one hour to you.
I've had constant interruptions

725
00:51:50,630 --> 00:51:54,070
and lapses in listening to you
say yes, that's what the data

726
00:51:54,070 --> 00:51:58,190
show.
And the interesting thing was

727
00:51:58,390 --> 00:52:03,270
Bill and some others just didn't
believe it, just didn't believe

728
00:52:03,270 --> 00:52:07,670
it and say this is not true.
This is not my own experience.

729
00:52:07,670 --> 00:52:11,470
I'm a stable knowing self and
I've listened to you for many

730
00:52:11,470 --> 00:52:15,570
minutes.
And that's an interesting

731
00:52:15,810 --> 00:52:19,770
discussion.
You know I feel sorry.

732
00:52:19,770 --> 00:52:22,410
I think my mind wandered off a
bit there because I accidentally

733
00:52:22,410 --> 00:52:24,570
took you off track there.
You when you when you were

734
00:52:24,570 --> 00:52:27,410
talking about these epistemic,
these, these agents and these

735
00:52:27,410 --> 00:52:30,690
minds and trying to understand
your theory of consciousness a

736
00:52:30,690 --> 00:52:33,330
little bit more.
Do you feel that it's it's more

737
00:52:33,330 --> 00:52:35,890
of a linguistic problem that we
are linguistics are playing a

738
00:52:35,890 --> 00:52:38,730
big role in us and our
limitations in describing these

739
00:52:39,220 --> 00:52:41,340
phenomenological experiences.
Do you believe that that's a

740
00:52:41,340 --> 00:52:44,220
major factor that hinders us
from solving this problem?

741
00:52:44,780 --> 00:52:49,140
Well, that's the deep classical
insight of analytical philosophy

742
00:52:49,140 --> 00:52:54,940
of mind.
It of course does, but now I

743
00:52:54,940 --> 00:52:58,420
think we have a much better and
fine grained way to describe

744
00:52:58,420 --> 00:53:03,220
what is actually happening.
There's a hyper prior landscape

745
00:53:03,220 --> 00:53:08,060
in our brain, a landscape of
very abstract assumptions, for

746
00:53:08,060 --> 00:53:12,620
example, about what a thought
is, who the thinker is

747
00:53:12,620 --> 00:53:17,220
currently, and what the
epistemic agent is.

748
00:53:18,180 --> 00:53:23,380
And you can have, if you have,
through cultural embedding and

749
00:53:23,380 --> 00:53:27,180
through language games you've
played, you have a strong

750
00:53:27,700 --> 00:53:31,540
assumption.
That you actually a continuous

751
00:53:31,540 --> 00:53:33,980
entity, a continuous epistemic
agent.

752
00:53:34,980 --> 00:53:38,500
You need very careful.
You need meditation retreats,

753
00:53:38,500 --> 00:53:43,020
you need a meditation practice.
You need very carefully trained

754
00:53:43,020 --> 00:53:47,900
introspection to discover that
that's actually not true, as you

755
00:53:47,900 --> 00:53:53,660
will like top down, shape your
own experience of your own

756
00:53:53,660 --> 00:53:58,260
thought flow like this.
And you will of course, speak

757
00:53:58,260 --> 00:54:00,340
like this.
This will reinforce the whole

758
00:54:00,340 --> 00:54:04,420
process socially.
And you may not discover

759
00:54:04,420 --> 00:54:07,940
subtleties in your own
experience unless

760
00:54:08,220 --> 00:54:13,300
neuroscientists come and do
experiments, you know, with mind

761
00:54:13,300 --> 00:54:17,180
wandering and say, yeah, but
people, if you test it, they

762
00:54:17,180 --> 00:54:22,820
have so many labs and labses,
it's and they don't realize

763
00:54:22,820 --> 00:54:24,860
them.
So the interesting thing about

764
00:54:24,860 --> 00:54:28,890
it is that.
Just as most people walk through

765
00:54:28,890 --> 00:54:32,930
their everyday life
automatically thinking

766
00:54:32,930 --> 00:54:36,810
neurotically, planning being
haunted by unbidden memories

767
00:54:37,170 --> 00:54:43,850
without even noticing that they
are thinking, the same of course

768
00:54:45,170 --> 00:54:49,370
happens with these lapses and
the mind wandering.

769
00:54:49,370 --> 00:54:53,370
Most people do not even realize
that they're absentminded.

770
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,600
Unless you do something like
experience sampling and fix a

771
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:02,960
buzzer, A buzzer to your arm and
whenever it buzzes, you ask

772
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:09,160
yourself, have I been on task
and there is no.

773
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:15,640
I was planning the holiday, but
if the buzzer hadn't been there,

774
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,840
you would think I was just
washing dishes and I was paying

775
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:26,210
attention all the time and.
So I think if one refines

776
00:55:26,570 --> 00:55:31,810
introspection with the help of
empirical research, one may

777
00:55:31,810 --> 00:55:35,130
discover that many philosophical
assumptions about the human

778
00:55:35,130 --> 00:55:39,130
mind, for instance, the
stability of the epistemic agent

779
00:55:39,130 --> 00:55:44,770
model, actually forced.
And you're talking like this all

780
00:55:44,770 --> 00:55:51,810
the time, reinforcing it maybe
some psychiatric patients?

781
00:55:52,570 --> 00:55:57,930
Are very sensitive people who
have a better than average

782
00:55:57,930 --> 00:56:03,810
introspection and discover these
discontinue discontinuities in

783
00:56:03,810 --> 00:56:05,810
themselves and get buried by
them.

784
00:56:05,890 --> 00:56:09,530
Could be, you know, I was on
that note.

785
00:56:09,530 --> 00:56:11,210
I was speaking to when I spoke
to call Preston.

786
00:56:11,210 --> 00:56:16,090
We spoke about this phenomenon
in psychiatry where someone

787
00:56:16,090 --> 00:56:20,050
who's acutely psychotic,
schizophrenic patient, acute

788
00:56:20,050 --> 00:56:23,850
psychosis, and you, you know,
the visual illusions, the

789
00:56:23,850 --> 00:56:27,770
checkerboard illusion, all those
famous ones, the the blue dress,

790
00:56:28,010 --> 00:56:30,130
those types of famous visual
illusions.

791
00:56:30,370 --> 00:56:32,890
A lot of the times when these
acute, acutely psychotic

792
00:56:32,890 --> 00:56:36,210
patients are having this
episode, they don't tend to fall

793
00:56:36,210 --> 00:56:38,490
for it as much as the average
human does.

794
00:56:39,930 --> 00:56:45,410
And that's a very fascinating
set of research done, because it

795
00:56:45,410 --> 00:56:48,130
begs the question of how the
psychosis has completely

796
00:56:48,130 --> 00:56:51,820
revamped the way they perceive
reality to.

797
00:56:52,060 --> 00:56:55,020
So while we might consider them
to be acutely psychotic and

798
00:56:55,340 --> 00:56:58,620
quote UN quote not seeing
reality for what it is, they're

799
00:56:58,620 --> 00:57:02,300
actually seeing reality for a
little bit more of radicality

800
00:57:02,300 --> 00:57:05,540
than we're actually seen.
So there's something like hyper

801
00:57:05,540 --> 00:57:09,100
acuity, Yes, exactly.
And that hyper acuity might of

802
00:57:09,100 --> 00:57:14,860
course spill over into higher
levels and then cause problems

803
00:57:14,860 --> 00:57:17,300
there.
Yes, I've had.

804
00:57:17,300 --> 00:57:22,590
Interesting.
Conversations with people in a

805
00:57:22,590 --> 00:57:28,790
closed ward, unfortunately both
close friends who both are dead.

806
00:57:28,790 --> 00:57:35,430
Now the most interesting thing
for me is if you have a very

807
00:57:35,590 --> 00:57:39,910
careful conversation and you go
along and you can, you can say

808
00:57:39,910 --> 00:57:45,270
you know that this step, this is
not consensus reality anymore.

809
00:57:46,110 --> 00:57:48,910
This is what nobody believes.
This isn't there.

810
00:57:48,910 --> 00:57:52,300
The towers.
The towers where they're

811
00:57:52,300 --> 00:57:56,940
watching you and they are
absolutely aware of it, they can

812
00:57:56,940 --> 00:58:03,260
even say, I know this is not
your reality, but it is my and I

813
00:58:03,260 --> 00:58:09,780
cannot help it, you know, and
that is very interesting.

814
00:58:09,780 --> 00:58:14,060
It also has to do with the
transparency of reality models.

815
00:58:14,620 --> 00:58:18,980
I mean, I don't know what the
solution will be.

816
00:58:19,490 --> 00:58:24,010
But a very interesting question
is of course how to become

817
00:58:24,010 --> 00:58:26,970
representations of the world
that the brain generates.

818
00:58:27,810 --> 00:58:30,890
Real.
Like irrevocably real.

819
00:58:31,970 --> 00:58:37,010
And how do they become opaque
and just like, say, in

820
00:58:37,010 --> 00:58:41,810
derealization syndrome or
something become unreal.

821
00:58:42,570 --> 00:58:47,340
What are these mechanisms?
I've also been fascinated by

822
00:58:47,340 --> 00:58:48,940
this.
Most philosophers just think,

823
00:58:48,940 --> 00:58:51,740
well, it's just reality,
perceptual reality out there in

824
00:58:51,740 --> 00:58:58,420
a healthful person.
But in epileptic seizures under

825
00:58:58,420 --> 00:59:02,780
the influence of hallucinogens,
there is phenomenological

826
00:59:02,780 --> 00:59:07,380
hyperrealism things.
It's just like the volume

827
00:59:07,380 --> 00:59:12,140
control for realness can be
turned up and down in

828
00:59:12,140 --> 00:59:16,200
depression.
In depersonalization, as you

829
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:20,920
know much better than I do, the
realness can go down even the

830
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:24,160
realness of one's own body.
What is that?

831
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:29,600
You know?
And I have great hope that

832
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:36,800
computational psychiatry will be
able to describe this.

833
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:42,730
What makes it real?
One thing I'm already only

834
00:59:42,730 --> 00:59:48,090
recently beginning to understand
is it may be that we have a

835
00:59:48,090 --> 00:59:55,370
better theory about how
psychosis happens, how complex

836
00:59:55,370 --> 01:00:00,530
hallucinations occur.
But this might still not mean

837
01:00:00,530 --> 01:00:06,650
that we can help people or cure
people, because the human brain,

838
01:00:06,650 --> 01:00:09,010
the human mind, is such a
complex thing.

839
01:00:10,070 --> 01:00:17,750
And I mean do you have any any
view on how this might be

840
01:00:17,750 --> 01:00:21,070
brought into therapeutical
efficacy?

841
01:00:21,430 --> 01:00:25,190
Yeah, I think I think there's
there's certain ways that I know

842
01:00:25,190 --> 01:00:26,870
would call for instance, we
spoke about so when you think

843
01:00:26,870 --> 01:00:29,390
about free energy principle and
and actually when I wrote that

844
01:00:29,390 --> 01:00:33,110
paper where I quoted you a
couple times, I spoke about how

845
01:00:33,990 --> 01:00:36,630
when you when you use that
principle or if you use

846
01:00:36,950 --> 01:00:40,670
hierarchical.
Hierarchical Bayesian brains and

847
01:00:41,430 --> 01:00:44,270
active inference as a theory to
approach psychiatry.

848
01:00:44,270 --> 01:00:46,230
And then you go into
computational psychiatry.

849
01:00:46,510 --> 01:00:48,670
You can then talk about the
prior information that you take

850
01:00:48,670 --> 01:00:50,750
in and the posterior conclusions
that you make.

851
01:00:51,150 --> 01:00:54,830
So let's say you use virtual
reality for an example, or you

852
01:00:54,910 --> 01:00:57,390
take a bunch of virtual reality
headset and place it on a

853
01:00:57,390 --> 01:00:59,990
patient.
You can almost try and shift the

854
01:01:00,030 --> 01:01:02,670
prior information they
constantly get on a day-to-day

855
01:01:02,670 --> 01:01:05,350
basis.
Tailor their reality to

856
01:01:05,350 --> 01:01:07,910
something that.
We have to 1st prove obviously

857
01:01:07,910 --> 01:01:12,590
with evidence seems to lower the
episodic rate of psychosis.

858
01:01:12,790 --> 01:01:16,910
So if if if we almost put them
into a new reality that that

859
01:01:16,910 --> 01:01:21,310
slightly aligns with their
physical reality a bit more and

860
01:01:21,310 --> 01:01:24,190
almost remove some of the
deluded thoughts or the

861
01:01:24,190 --> 01:01:27,430
perceptual hallucinations that
it that they experience you can

862
01:01:27,430 --> 01:01:29,270
almost assist them in that
regard.

863
01:01:29,630 --> 01:01:33,150
But then we we we end up falling
into the trap of possibly

864
01:01:33,310 --> 01:01:35,750
inducing psychotic.
So it's because we've altered.

865
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:38,840
The perception of reality and
This is why I find it so

866
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:43,080
difficult to apply many of these
yeah, I mean the the tools are

867
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:46,240
coming.
There are some very interesting

868
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:52,880
results are vaguely remember
with anorexia and body

869
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:59,520
distortion perception disorders.
A very interesting but also

870
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:05,250
sobering thing I saw many years
in Milan in in Italy is they

871
01:02:05,250 --> 01:02:08,530
took a number of, you know,
psychotic patients without

872
01:02:08,530 --> 01:02:14,250
insight and professional actors
from the theatre and the actors

873
01:02:14,450 --> 01:02:20,290
played the patients exactly what
the patient says and what it he

874
01:02:20,290 --> 01:02:23,290
or she does.
And the interesting thing was

875
01:02:23,370 --> 01:02:28,170
that caused insight.
So while they're watching

876
01:02:28,330 --> 01:02:32,770
somebody playing themselves,
they suddenly realized they're

877
01:02:32,770 --> 01:02:35,130
ill and there's a reason that
they're here.

878
01:02:35,290 --> 01:02:41,250
But the curtain closes again
after the intervention, You

879
01:02:41,290 --> 01:02:46,770
know, it's not a lasting inside.
And that's of course an

880
01:02:46,770 --> 01:02:51,050
interesting question like how do
you get, I mean you are ill, you

881
01:02:51,050 --> 01:02:55,890
think you're someone, how do you
get lasting insight into the non

882
01:02:55,890 --> 01:02:59,570
existence of self?
A question Buddhists have asked,

883
01:03:00,130 --> 01:03:02,790
of course.
And and the big part of a mental

884
01:03:02,790 --> 01:03:07,230
state examination is well often
psychiatrists will use a a MSE

885
01:03:07,230 --> 01:03:11,350
is what they call it and and and
MSE, so mental state

886
01:03:11,350 --> 01:03:13,990
examination.
So one of the main factors is

887
01:03:13,990 --> 01:03:17,270
the is insight in judgment.
So when they're when they're

888
01:03:17,270 --> 01:03:19,990
assessing you, one of the key
things they'll write down is are

889
01:03:19,990 --> 01:03:23,030
the poor insight in judgment.
Or maybe fair insight, poor

890
01:03:23,030 --> 01:03:25,670
judgment.
Because sometimes, even if they

891
01:03:25,670 --> 01:03:28,390
have all the insight, they need
the judgment.

892
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,440
Regarding the inside, they have
still doesn't correlate and

893
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:35,600
correspond, so it's so difficult
to actually get down to what

894
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:39,040
they really want or need.
Another thing you could use

895
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:42,240
let's say virtual reality for
would be exposure therapies.

896
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:47,360
If someone has a serious fear of
heights, maybe just to slowly

897
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:51,240
bring them while knowing they're
in a safe environment to utilize

898
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:54,640
it in that regard.
But that's just technology,

899
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:55,920
though.
That's not necessarily an

900
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:59,080
application of a.
A theoretical model I would say.

901
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:05,720
So an ordinary, so-called
neurotypical and healthy

902
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:09,520
citizen.
How do you rate them on?

903
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:11,480
Insight.
Exactly.

904
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:16,320
That's exactly what the focus
was on.

905
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:18,800
I'm both Fulford from Oxford.
I mean, that's what he takes

906
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:21,800
books about is that we just
cannot draw lines like that.

907
01:04:22,310 --> 01:04:26,070
It's it's it's such a blurry
spectrum in general, which is

908
01:04:26,070 --> 01:04:27,510
how I see consciousness at this
point.

909
01:04:27,510 --> 01:04:30,590
You can, we don't really know.
There's so many different ways

910
01:04:30,590 --> 01:04:32,790
to define it.
How do you actually draw lines

911
01:04:32,790 --> 01:04:35,470
with anything?
But does that relative and we

912
01:04:35,470 --> 01:04:38,430
come back to your question of
illusionism that Oh yes, yes.

913
01:04:38,510 --> 01:04:45,710
Like imagine an extreme case,
rare case of Qatar syndrome,

914
01:04:47,590 --> 01:04:55,210
where a patient will claim that
he is dead and asks for the body

915
01:04:55,210 --> 01:05:02,170
to be disposed of and will claim
that he's not conscious.

916
01:05:05,450 --> 01:05:10,450
I mean that is something we know
it can happen, that human beings

917
01:05:10,530 --> 01:05:16,370
are firmly convinced that they
are dead and also have no mind.

918
01:05:17,970 --> 01:05:22,800
Does this tell us anything about
illusionism or is this just rare

919
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:28,000
and act out of material and?
I think it it, it actually could

920
01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:30,440
tell people that the phenomenon
is possible.

921
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:33,680
So that's where I think someone
like the, I don't know if you're

922
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:36,400
familiar with the new defenders
of these types of theories like

923
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:41,600
Keith Frankish who who firmly
what he describes is more of a

924
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:45,120
quasi phenomenal experience.
So he he says that these these

925
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:48,160
experiences are existing.
It's the way we're defining them

926
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:50,440
to be more real than they
actually are.

927
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:54,400
So we're giving them this almost
essence like quality and I think

928
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:56,960
that's where he specifically
says no, this is not actually

929
01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:58,760
correct.
It's quasi phenomenal.

930
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:00,520
It is something that's
happening.

931
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:02,840
It's more the phenomenal nature
of it.

932
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:06,280
The the that intentionality or
the apartments that that a lot

933
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:08,920
of philosophers talk about is
what he's referring to.

934
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:12,720
That's not necessarily there.
And so I and I think that's

935
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:14,480
where Dennett also goes with it
as well.

936
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:16,000
But honestly, I can't speak for
them.

937
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:22,380
I I don't really.
Well, I think there is a

938
01:06:22,620 --> 01:06:32,340
completely underrated paper
which appeared in 1988 by Kathy

939
01:06:32,340 --> 01:06:36,540
Wilkes.
Also the late Kathy Workers, an

940
01:06:36,540 --> 01:06:40,820
Oxford philosopher who has a
very simple point.

941
01:06:40,820 --> 01:06:46,420
She went through our languages
and said that way over 90% of

942
01:06:46,420 --> 01:06:49,870
the languages that have evolved
on this planet do not have a

943
01:06:49,870 --> 01:06:54,510
word for consciousness.
I don't know if this would

944
01:06:54,830 --> 01:06:59,590
still, you know, stand to test
by today's linguistics, but I

945
01:06:59,630 --> 01:07:02,990
believe, I believe it's probably
true.

946
01:07:03,870 --> 01:07:07,990
So she makes this very funny
move that she says, yeah, that

947
01:07:07,990 --> 01:07:10,230
happened after the Cartesian
catastrophe.

948
01:07:10,590 --> 01:07:15,550
That's a problem that emerged in
certain small circles in Europe

949
01:07:16,230 --> 01:07:19,980
350 years ago.
Rest of human time never had a

950
01:07:19,980 --> 01:07:23,860
problem of consciousness, You
know, they have to be infected

951
01:07:23,860 --> 01:07:30,420
with it.
To the debate and that is also

952
01:07:33,180 --> 01:07:35,820
interesting.
Why you have so human human

953
01:07:35,820 --> 01:07:40,140
being, human beings or cultures
not evolved.

954
01:07:41,140 --> 01:07:45,540
The concept of consciousness
that puzzles us so much now.

955
01:07:46,970 --> 01:07:52,290
It's like they never saw the
need to describe something

956
01:07:52,330 --> 01:07:55,770
there.
I think they will understand

957
01:07:55,770 --> 01:08:00,610
what wakefulness is.
I think most human beings will

958
01:08:00,610 --> 01:08:04,250
understand that what it means to
be awake.

959
01:08:05,810 --> 01:08:13,490
You can also possess I'm, I'm so
I haven't read Frankish or I

960
01:08:13,490 --> 01:08:17,350
don't know this debate, but
would it tell us something to

961
01:08:17,350 --> 01:08:24,470
know that there are certain
kinds of coma where you have all

962
01:08:25,229 --> 01:08:29,270
the physiological signs of being
awake.

963
01:08:29,270 --> 01:08:34,670
You have a sleep wake rhythm,
you even have gaze following

964
01:08:34,670 --> 01:08:38,390
movements sometimes which make
it very hard for the relatives.

965
01:08:39,550 --> 01:08:42,950
But definitely also
retrospective reports.

966
01:08:42,950 --> 01:08:46,930
No conscious experience.
The patient doesn't know they

967
01:08:46,930 --> 01:08:51,529
exist.
And at the same time, in

968
01:08:51,529 --> 01:08:56,490
ordinary folks we have
wakefulness plus a conscious

969
01:08:56,490 --> 01:09:00,050
experience of wakefulness, We
can feel wakefulness.

970
01:09:00,649 --> 01:09:04,290
I say a lot about this in the
forthcoming book, where I have

971
01:09:05,330 --> 01:09:09,689
500 reports where meditators
from 57 countries in the world

972
01:09:09,689 --> 01:09:12,410
describe the experience of pure
awareness itself.

973
01:09:13,310 --> 01:09:18,029
And of course it has a lot to do
with just clarity and the

974
01:09:18,029 --> 01:09:23,430
experience awake for us.
So you can be awake and not know

975
01:09:23,430 --> 01:09:29,109
it, and you can be awake and
know it like hopefully the two

976
01:09:29,109 --> 01:09:33,670
of us right now is doing.
Does this tell us something

977
01:09:33,670 --> 01:09:37,670
about illusionism?
That's a tough.

978
01:09:37,990 --> 01:09:40,430
It's a tough.
But look, I don't.

979
01:09:40,430 --> 01:09:43,330
I remember when I wrote my.
Essay back, this was years ago

980
01:09:43,330 --> 01:09:46,609
as well.
I at the time believed in it

981
01:09:46,609 --> 01:09:50,850
quite firmly and not anymore.
I mean, I think that I think

982
01:09:50,850 --> 01:09:53,170
this podcast specifically has
completely changed the way I

983
01:09:53,170 --> 01:09:55,730
perceive consciousness in
general.

984
01:09:55,730 --> 01:09:58,330
And I've spoken to so many
different philosophers,

985
01:09:58,330 --> 01:10:04,490
neuroscientists, psychiatrists,
psychologists, that I'm at this

986
01:10:04,490 --> 01:10:09,070
point I find myself does not.
Knowing where I stand, I or I

987
01:10:09,070 --> 01:10:11,670
often say it's I'm ontologically
agnostic regarding this concept.

988
01:10:11,670 --> 01:10:15,390
At this point I'm very, very
intrigued by all the

989
01:10:15,390 --> 01:10:17,710
epistemology, everything we can
talk about.

990
01:10:18,070 --> 01:10:22,430
But I'm almost unconvinced by
all of them and very convinced

991
01:10:22,430 --> 01:10:24,030
by most of them at the same
time.

992
01:10:24,550 --> 01:10:26,630
So OK, let me add to your
confusion.

993
01:10:28,670 --> 01:10:31,510
I think consciousness is not a
subjective phenomenon.

994
01:10:31,710 --> 01:10:39,580
Yes, because we have empirical
evidence for conscious

995
01:10:39,580 --> 01:10:42,140
experience without a first
person perspective.

996
01:10:43,820 --> 01:10:48,740
So I'm not gonna go into
details, but say empirical data

997
01:10:49,140 --> 01:10:53,300
on ego dissolution under
psychedelics or the

998
01:10:53,300 --> 01:10:56,660
phenomenology of advanced
practitioners of meditation

999
01:10:57,300 --> 01:10:59,860
where there is just awareness
without anybody.

1000
01:10:59,860 --> 01:11:05,920
We see that all the stronger
philosophical notions of

1001
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:10,480
subjectivity, like
epistemological notions, or even

1002
01:11:10,480 --> 01:11:16,760
metaphysical notions I would
claim, are grounded in our

1003
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:21,000
conscious experience of being a
knowing self-directed at the

1004
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:25,360
world.
That's where this issue comes

1005
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:27,560
from.
Consciousness is an

1006
01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:30,480
intrinsically subjective
phenomenon, and that's why it

1007
01:11:30,480 --> 01:11:36,320
cannot be explained.
But now we do have mounting

1008
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:41,160
empirical data that conscious
experience can actually exist

1009
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:46,000
without an experiential
perspective.

1010
01:11:46,480 --> 01:11:52,120
Somebody directed at it.
So couldn't it in these cases be

1011
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:58,240
something that not a person has,
but that an Organism has?

1012
01:11:59,960 --> 01:12:04,730
Even Thomas Nagle said that in
an unknown paper called The

1013
01:12:04,730 --> 01:12:07,410
Boundaries of Inner Space in
1969.

1014
01:12:07,410 --> 01:12:11,570
He says if we he said we may
have to fall back onto the

1015
01:12:11,570 --> 01:12:16,370
notion of an Organism if we
cannot describe it as a personal

1016
01:12:16,370 --> 01:12:21,410
level property so that the the
brute awareness or the

1017
01:12:21,410 --> 01:12:29,410
consciousness of it all.
So could it actually be that we

1018
01:12:29,410 --> 01:12:33,770
are blinded by the fact that in
almost all cases where we

1019
01:12:33,770 --> 01:12:37,850
actually enjoy conscious
experience, there is always a

1020
01:12:37,850 --> 01:12:42,690
knowing self?
Yes, and a perspective.

1021
01:12:43,290 --> 01:12:45,570
I agree.
I think it's a it's one of those

1022
01:12:45,570 --> 01:12:47,290
things.
There's some great work being

1023
01:12:47,290 --> 01:12:49,570
done at the moment by Michael
Levin.

1024
01:12:51,090 --> 01:12:53,810
Tell me.
And that so he well, he works

1025
01:12:53,810 --> 01:12:57,900
with bi electrical networks and.
What he's slowly trying to also

1026
01:12:57,940 --> 01:13:00,020
the one I'm just going to
paraphrase because honestly, his

1027
01:13:00,020 --> 01:13:02,660
work is so complex that I even
barely understand some of the

1028
01:13:02,660 --> 01:13:05,220
concepts myself.
But for the most part, he's

1029
01:13:05,220 --> 01:13:08,260
trying to blur this line
completely of what intelligence

1030
01:13:08,260 --> 01:13:12,020
is and what a big role this
plays for our own understanding

1031
01:13:12,020 --> 01:13:15,620
of what consciousness is.
And to show that even cells,

1032
01:13:15,660 --> 01:13:17,500
even and I'm not talking about
neurons, I'm talking about

1033
01:13:17,500 --> 01:13:21,660
general cells, have electrical
communication that occurs.

1034
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:25,920
That if you disrupt or disturb
it or even reprogram some of the

1035
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:29,200
electrical communication, you
can fundamentally change the way

1036
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:32,840
the cell will proliferate and
and develop general.

1037
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:35,160
So that means there's
communication between cells that

1038
01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:40,040
go beyond just chemical and and
rather this is neurochemical

1039
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:44,320
communication and intelligence
nonetheless and hit the goal.

1040
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:46,400
I think I mean he's working.
There's other people like Chris

1041
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:49,840
Fields, Mark Solms, Call
Friston, They're they're sort of

1042
01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:54,480
combining all these different.
Fields together and coming up

1043
01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:57,920
drawing slowly conclusions using
mark of blankets and just

1044
01:13:58,040 --> 01:14:02,160
various different as yeah, just
to sort of show us and blur this

1045
01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:05,280
line even more what we really
consider to be intelligent

1046
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:09,760
conscious and in general.
And I think it's sort of

1047
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:11,560
fantastic program and great
work.

1048
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:17,200
Yes, it's exciting times.
And from my point of view, the

1049
01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:23,630
real question is if you can
finds scale invariant abstract

1050
01:14:23,630 --> 01:14:31,630
principles that go through from
physics to biology to the

1051
01:14:31,630 --> 01:14:34,990
expression in our own brains
with conscious experience.

1052
01:14:34,990 --> 01:14:36,790
And I think they're basically
there.

1053
01:14:36,870 --> 01:14:43,310
I mean, Carl's story is
basically anchored in

1054
01:14:43,310 --> 01:14:50,640
statistical physics, and we can
see how this can be nested on

1055
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:57,000
different time scales, but
still, I think there's no such

1056
01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:00,280
thing as pan psychism.
Of course these abstract

1057
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:05,840
computational properties that go
through the levels, they will

1058
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:11,270
have different strengths also.
But if you would say that cells

1059
01:15:11,270 --> 01:15:15,030
or even protons have proto
phenomenal properties, that's

1060
01:15:15,350 --> 01:15:22,030
one of the sexy stuff, you know,
people like to hear, then you

1061
01:15:22,030 --> 01:15:24,750
get, then you get just another
question.

1062
01:15:24,750 --> 01:15:30,950
So why is our expression of this
form of being conscious so very

1063
01:15:30,950 --> 01:15:33,430
different and so, so much
richer?

1064
01:15:33,710 --> 01:15:40,820
You You just kick the you.
How do you say you reconfront

1065
01:15:40,820 --> 01:15:45,300
the problem on a higher level?
If you say there are similar

1066
01:15:45,780 --> 01:15:50,660
principles at work through all
scales, but it is of course

1067
01:15:50,660 --> 01:15:56,220
something unique in waking up
from dreamless deep sleep there.

1068
01:15:56,580 --> 01:15:59,740
There is something very dramatic
happening there.

1069
01:16:00,420 --> 01:16:05,500
And the question is, of course,
it's also a bit unsettling.

1070
01:16:07,220 --> 01:16:14,010
You know, I think the motive,
the unadmitted motive for many

1071
01:16:14,010 --> 01:16:18,010
people who are interested in the
metaphysical side of

1072
01:16:18,010 --> 01:16:23,810
consciousness and all that is
that they look for a clever way

1073
01:16:24,010 --> 01:16:29,210
to satisfy one of the deepest
emotional needs all of us have,

1074
01:16:29,530 --> 01:16:34,130
which is mortality denial.
So if you want to make a career

1075
01:16:34,130 --> 01:16:37,560
in the philosophy of
consciousness, you have to find

1076
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:40,640
some.
You can't say anything crazy or

1077
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:44,600
wrong, but you have to offer
people a sexy backdoor.

1078
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:51,440
Something like proto
phenomenalism or or or something

1079
01:16:51,440 --> 01:16:54,440
like panpsychism.
Then you get a lot of intention

1080
01:16:54,960 --> 01:16:59,040
and that is because of often
unethic.

1081
01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:03,880
Basic motive is but could it
exist after death?

1082
01:17:04,500 --> 01:17:09,700
Could it exist after the
biological brain has died And

1083
01:17:09,780 --> 01:17:15,780
this deep need, which also is
something computational, you

1084
01:17:15,780 --> 01:17:21,940
know, and we there's a there's a
I have introduced a term that's

1085
01:17:21,940 --> 01:17:27,820
called existence bias and David
Bennett, how would immediately

1086
01:17:27,820 --> 01:17:32,140
understand it?
We are beings who will always

1087
01:17:32,140 --> 01:17:37,090
opt to continue their own
existence, even if it's not in

1088
01:17:37,090 --> 01:17:42,010
their own best interest, even if
it's obvious even to them that

1089
01:17:42,010 --> 01:17:46,090
this will just increase the
overall negative balance of

1090
01:17:46,090 --> 01:17:49,130
suffering.
And there's a reason for this.

1091
01:17:49,370 --> 01:17:55,490
I think Carl's story helps us to
understand why we suffer from

1092
01:17:55,490 --> 01:18:01,460
existence bias, because we have
to stay in a very, very narrow

1093
01:18:01,460 --> 01:18:06,380
window of certain parameters to
stay alive.

1094
01:18:07,460 --> 01:18:12,620
The process can be described as
finding evidence for one's own

1095
01:18:12,620 --> 01:18:15,180
existence.
You know, as predicting,

1096
01:18:15,500 --> 01:18:19,100
continuously predicting our own
evident existence.

1097
01:18:20,020 --> 01:18:23,780
To put it falsely and very in a
very primitive way, we were

1098
01:18:23,780 --> 01:18:29,130
never meant to simulate future
worlds in which we didn't have a

1099
01:18:29,130 --> 01:18:32,770
lot of healthy offspring or in
which we were dead.

1100
01:18:34,170 --> 01:18:38,090
Of course, for short term risk
management we have to recognize

1101
01:18:38,090 --> 01:18:40,890
I might be dead if I do that.
That's a separate thing.

1102
01:18:41,370 --> 01:18:46,970
But in principle also, I say in
the new book, is we are an

1103
01:18:47,010 --> 01:18:53,570
embodied existence bias.
We are resistant resistance.

1104
01:18:53,650 --> 01:19:00,540
We resist thermodynamics in an
amazing, highly improbable way,

1105
01:19:00,540 --> 01:19:03,540
as you know.
You know how improbable it was

1106
01:19:03,540 --> 01:19:06,540
that you and I haven't dropped
dead of our chairs during this

1107
01:19:06,540 --> 01:19:09,980
conversation?
Physically, it's a bizarre

1108
01:19:09,980 --> 01:19:12,220
event.
You know that systems like that

1109
01:19:13,460 --> 01:19:18,540
should evolve that far away from
thermodynamic equilibrium

1110
01:19:19,140 --> 01:19:21,940
somehow create a stable state.
But we do it.

1111
01:19:23,030 --> 01:19:26,230
And this is one of my favorite
philosophers.

1112
01:19:26,870 --> 01:19:32,470
Jacob Howey at Monash University
has described it in a recent

1113
01:19:32,470 --> 01:19:34,950
paper.
Because we follow an inner norm.

1114
01:19:35,950 --> 01:19:40,390
And that norm, you know, is this
existence bias.

1115
01:19:40,430 --> 01:19:45,470
Now my point is the existence
bias on a psychological and

1116
01:19:45,470 --> 01:19:51,490
psychiatric level leads to
mortality denial and to what the

1117
01:19:51,730 --> 01:19:56,450
Buddha, the Buddhists, have
called Baba Tana, the thirst for

1118
01:19:56,450 --> 01:19:59,410
existence.
We have this thirst for

1119
01:19:59,410 --> 01:20:04,650
continuing existence.
Non existence somehow almost is

1120
01:20:04,650 --> 01:20:10,730
no option for us and as long as
we're healthy, as long as we're

1121
01:20:11,850 --> 01:20:15,410
mentally healthy.
But my point is, this also

1122
01:20:15,730 --> 01:20:20,130
spills over in our theoretical
treatment of consciousness.

1123
01:20:21,090 --> 01:20:26,570
Most of us normal human beings
who are not monks, who have

1124
01:20:26,570 --> 01:20:30,930
nuns, who have renunciated the
world and are ready to go into

1125
01:20:30,930 --> 01:20:34,370
nonexistence.
Most of us that read these books

1126
01:20:34,370 --> 01:20:39,130
about consciousness have this
deep and this is not something

1127
01:20:39,130 --> 01:20:43,010
intellectual.
My existence bias, it's a

1128
01:20:43,010 --> 01:20:50,450
computational principle I embody
in my cells existence bias and

1129
01:20:50,930 --> 01:20:55,690
we want to find out can this
help me proving my own

1130
01:20:55,690 --> 01:20:59,450
existence?
You know can this help me

1131
01:21:00,570 --> 01:21:06,450
developing A delusion?
Because now Part 2 is we have a

1132
01:21:06,450 --> 01:21:09,970
problem that probably no other
animal on this planet has.

1133
01:21:10,930 --> 01:21:17,720
We know, I'll express it in free
energy terms again, that our

1134
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:21,160
predictive horizon will
eventually shrink to zero.

1135
01:21:21,720 --> 01:21:24,600
We know that we will die
cognitively.

1136
01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:31,240
That is what I call in the new
book a toxic form of self

1137
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:35,080
knowledge.
It's a major danger to our self,

1138
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:39,000
self model.
Evolution didn't want this.

1139
01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:44,400
And if we want to stay
functional in, you know, seeing

1140
01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:48,550
our own mortality, so clearly we
need to tweak our model of

1141
01:21:48,550 --> 01:21:52,310
reality, states of
consciousness, our phenomenal

1142
01:21:52,310 --> 01:21:56,350
models of reality.
And that is where religious

1143
01:21:56,350 --> 01:22:00,790
illusion starts.
You know, this is where we have

1144
01:22:00,790 --> 01:22:06,790
to find a way to come to terms
with this, to deal with our

1145
01:22:06,790 --> 01:22:11,670
mortality, because we are an
embodied existence bias and that

1146
01:22:13,290 --> 01:22:15,730
it's a big problem most people
don't see.

1147
01:22:15,730 --> 01:22:19,410
If you want to make a theory of
consciousness because nobody

1148
01:22:19,410 --> 01:22:24,210
wants to hear eliminative
materialism and everybody wants

1149
01:22:24,210 --> 01:22:29,770
to have something as a little
mystery, you know, you know what

1150
01:22:29,770 --> 01:22:31,490
I.
Mean I get, I get completely

1151
01:22:31,490 --> 01:22:32,930
what you're saying.
I mean, there's this, it's

1152
01:22:32,930 --> 01:22:35,450
almost that, that little bit of
an Ian Vittel something that

1153
01:22:35,450 --> 01:22:37,970
makes you special, something
that almost, yes.

1154
01:22:38,610 --> 01:22:40,930
You going?
Yes, of course.

1155
01:22:41,090 --> 01:22:49,750
And you want any solution that
doesn't leave a door open for

1156
01:22:49,750 --> 01:22:57,270
that prediction simulation of
future selves and might go on

1157
01:22:57,270 --> 01:23:02,150
after physical death.
Everything that says no, no,

1158
01:23:02,190 --> 01:23:04,910
you're predictive horizon will
shrink to 0.

1159
01:23:05,310 --> 01:23:08,750
Doesn't feel right to being
staring us.

1160
01:23:09,430 --> 01:23:15,850
It feels unhealthy.
It feels not good for the

1161
01:23:15,850 --> 01:23:19,730
integrity of our self model.
And that's the problem.

1162
01:23:19,730 --> 01:23:23,890
Materialists are really ruthless
scientists or philosophers have.

1163
01:23:24,290 --> 01:23:28,490
Because there's a crowd out
there and the crowd says yeah,

1164
01:23:29,450 --> 01:23:33,570
but this is a disenchantment of
the world.

1165
01:23:33,570 --> 01:23:39,800
And on a God level this doesn't
feel like I like the hard

1166
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:42,680
problem of consciousness.
I like that better.

1167
01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:49,840
And isn't it hand psychism that
you know that has an appeal and

1168
01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:53,200
that's a major barrier in making
a theory of consciousness?

1169
01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:56,360
For sure.
Thomas, the name, the name of

1170
01:23:56,360 --> 01:23:57,720
your book, It's very German
word.

1171
01:23:57,720 --> 01:23:59,600
Do you wanna just say it for me
Quickly and just for the

1172
01:23:59,600 --> 01:24:02,440
listeners and the viewers, What
name of the book?

1173
01:24:02,440 --> 01:24:07,660
The The forthcoming book or the
forthcoming book is will be This

1174
01:24:07,700 --> 01:24:11,140
MIT Press in English, The
Elephant and the Blind.

1175
01:24:11,940 --> 01:24:14,420
And of course, there's a German
version of it too.

1176
01:24:15,140 --> 01:24:16,700
Yes.
How do you say the German word?

1177
01:24:16,700 --> 01:24:18,620
Because I've been, I've been
trying to pronounce this for a

1178
01:24:18,620 --> 01:24:19,300
while.
But is it?

1179
01:24:19,300 --> 01:24:23,060
Yeah, elephant on Deeplyn.
OK, elephant on Deeplyn.

1180
01:24:23,380 --> 01:24:27,500
OK, so is that a good?
OK and someone, and it is, of

1181
01:24:27,500 --> 01:24:32,340
course that metaphor is
describes exactly our situation

1182
01:24:32,340 --> 01:24:34,860
in trying to understand what
consciousness is.

1183
01:24:34,860 --> 01:24:38,060
You know, some people have a
flank, some people have the

1184
01:24:38,060 --> 01:24:41,100
trunk, some people, some blind
people have the tail.

1185
01:24:41,580 --> 01:24:45,020
They're all right then.
Complete disagreement with each

1186
01:24:45,020 --> 01:24:48,860
other and.
The word I was actually talking

1187
01:24:48,860 --> 01:24:51,620
about is is pervert stands
culture.

1188
01:24:51,620 --> 01:24:52,620
Is that?
Is that the word?

1189
01:24:52,740 --> 01:24:55,580
Oh, that is the latest book
which hasn't found an English

1190
01:24:55,580 --> 01:24:59,180
publisher yet that is out since
6th of January.

1191
01:24:59,260 --> 01:25:06,030
Yes, yes, that is a different.
Do you want to know what the

1192
01:25:06,030 --> 01:25:09,750
worst signs go to or now?
And I had to pronounce that one

1193
01:25:09,750 --> 01:25:13,390
that that was that, Yeah.
It's about creating a cultural

1194
01:25:13,390 --> 01:25:18,510
context where we also ask
normative questions like what is

1195
01:25:18,510 --> 01:25:20,470
a good state of consciousness?
Yes, yes.

1196
01:25:20,790 --> 01:25:24,030
Will of course apply to
psychiatry as well.

1197
01:25:24,350 --> 01:25:25,430
Sure.
I mean, you spoke.

1198
01:25:25,430 --> 01:25:28,310
I think there was a point where
I heard you discussing the fact

1199
01:25:28,310 --> 01:25:32,150
that you look for what is it a
negative utilitarian approach

1200
01:25:32,150 --> 01:25:35,560
to?
Yes to life and I was very

1201
01:25:35,560 --> 01:25:38,040
curious to know about more, a
bit more about that work on your

1202
01:25:38,040 --> 01:25:43,120
view on that and how it touches
on your the mind in general.

1203
01:25:43,280 --> 01:25:49,640
Well, I'm a bit hesitant.
To go into that for two reasons.

1204
01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:55,520
One is I'm not up to speed on
the technical literature on

1205
01:25:55,520 --> 01:25:57,800
negative utilitarianism.
I have to say that.

1206
01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:00,240
I just.
I mean, I've peeped into it a

1207
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:05,460
bit and I have certain
intuitions which I can explain

1208
01:26:05,460 --> 01:26:09,220
in second.
I have found that it is one of

1209
01:26:09,460 --> 01:26:14,420
the question you have to just
ask is one of the philosophical

1210
01:26:14,500 --> 01:26:18,220
issues that are hard to discuss
in the public.

1211
01:26:18,740 --> 01:26:22,060
Yes, because they hurt some
people too much.

1212
01:26:22,340 --> 01:26:23,980
I think that some people don't
want to go.

1213
01:26:24,060 --> 01:26:25,540
That question, let's just we'll
scratch that.

1214
01:26:25,540 --> 01:26:27,180
I'm going to edit No, no, no,
no, no, no.

1215
01:26:27,540 --> 01:26:30,960
I'm going to.
I think it's a very tenable

1216
01:26:30,960 --> 01:26:35,880
position I don't know about.
Bernard has special specific

1217
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:40,880
exposition and the argument, but
it's a very tenable position

1218
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:44,080
that life is not worth living
and existence is not in our own

1219
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:47,600
best interest.
I even have put a thought

1220
01:26:48,400 --> 01:26:53,000
experiment out on the web which
is called the bond scenario,

1221
01:26:53,280 --> 01:26:59,790
which is called benevolent
artificial antenatism, which

1222
01:27:00,030 --> 01:27:04,390
makes the assumption that a
super intelligence emerges and

1223
01:27:04,470 --> 01:27:09,430
it is not in any way misaligned
with our interests or unethical.

1224
01:27:10,390 --> 01:27:13,550
Quite the opposite.
It is of course much better in

1225
01:27:13,550 --> 01:27:17,590
moral cognition than ourselves.
It's fully on our side.

1226
01:27:17,710 --> 01:27:22,350
It's not an an event, it's a
benevolent super intelligent and

1227
01:27:22,350 --> 01:27:28,310
it discovers that non existence
is in our own best interest and

1228
01:27:28,310 --> 01:27:31,830
that for reasons of self
deception mechanisms that

1229
01:27:31,870 --> 01:27:35,790
evolution has put into our
brains we are not able to see

1230
01:27:35,790 --> 01:27:38,870
this fact that non existence is
better.

1231
01:27:38,870 --> 01:27:42,870
And for me, it's completely
obvious that we just state this,

1232
01:27:42,870 --> 01:27:48,670
that if you see humankind as a
whole, it is an ocean of

1233
01:27:48,670 --> 01:27:55,160
suffering and confusion.
I would even expand this to

1234
01:27:55,160 --> 01:28:00,200
sentient life on this planet.
I think evolution is nothing to

1235
01:28:00,200 --> 01:28:03,080
be glorified.
It had on this planet.

1236
01:28:03,080 --> 01:28:08,200
It has created an ocean, an
absolutely unfathomable ocean of

1237
01:28:08,200 --> 01:28:10,680
suffering.
The pair this fair and death

1238
01:28:10,680 --> 01:28:17,040
anxiety in an enormous number of
conscious individuals that

1239
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:21,250
didn't exist at this place in
the physical universe before.

1240
01:28:21,250 --> 01:28:26,490
So actually we are in a highly
problematic situation or highly

1241
01:28:26,490 --> 01:28:30,250
problematic here.
And there's I mean of course

1242
01:28:30,250 --> 01:28:34,250
evolution is also something
fantastic that has created all

1243
01:28:34,250 --> 01:28:39,490
these beauties and forms.
But I think for me it is highly

1244
01:28:39,490 --> 01:28:47,810
intuitive that an ordinary human
life contains more suffering and

1245
01:28:47,810 --> 01:28:56,130
joy, and I call this NP, a
negative phenomenology, very

1246
01:28:56,130 --> 01:29:01,410
simply defined as all states
which the system, if it had a

1247
01:29:01,410 --> 01:29:03,770
choice, would rather not live
through.

1248
01:29:04,890 --> 01:29:08,010
And I can if you want to.
Do you want two more minutes

1249
01:29:08,010 --> 01:29:09,930
about this topic?
We can, yeah.

1250
01:29:09,970 --> 01:29:11,290
We can go, yeah.
Yeah.

1251
01:29:11,490 --> 01:29:19,050
So I wanted to do an experience
sampling study but never got to

1252
01:29:19,050 --> 01:29:23,450
it.
But I did a pilot study with I

1253
01:29:23,450 --> 01:29:30,890
think 12 or 17 of my PhD
students in my group.

1254
01:29:32,410 --> 01:29:38,090
So it was.
So the question was this.

1255
01:29:39,450 --> 01:29:42,970
You're going to get for one
week, you're going to get random

1256
01:29:42,970 --> 01:29:49,970
SMS messages at different times,
and whenever your phone buzzes,

1257
01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:56,520
you check Is this a moment I
would take with me into the

1258
01:29:56,520 --> 01:29:59,160
afterlife?
So the thought experiment is

1259
01:29:59,160 --> 01:30:04,320
like that.
There is an afterlife, but it's

1260
01:30:04,320 --> 01:30:07,200
called the eternal playlist
thought experiment.

1261
01:30:07,640 --> 01:30:10,960
But you will not have any new
experiences after death.

1262
01:30:12,120 --> 01:30:16,160
You can make a selection from
those experiences you have

1263
01:30:16,160 --> 01:30:20,940
created before you died and they
will buy a random randomized

1264
01:30:20,940 --> 01:30:25,300
algorithm that will be played
back to you in eternity after

1265
01:30:25,300 --> 01:30:29,740
death.
So the question is how many

1266
01:30:29,740 --> 01:30:32,700
moments in your life you
actually have, if you look there

1267
01:30:33,020 --> 01:30:36,260
where you say, oh, I would take
this with me into life after

1268
01:30:36,260 --> 01:30:44,460
death.
So I think we did.

1269
01:30:44,580 --> 01:30:46,940
I have to.
I think we did 100 samples.

1270
01:30:48,200 --> 01:30:52,800
Then you lose about 30 people
don't hear the phone buzzing.

1271
01:30:52,800 --> 01:30:58,040
You get 7070 data points from
every student.

1272
01:30:58,800 --> 01:31:06,400
And the two arguably 2 smart
ones were embarrassed to say

1273
01:31:07,840 --> 01:31:12,120
that they had no In the course
of a whole week, they had no

1274
01:31:12,120 --> 01:31:16,120
moment that was so good that
they would take it into the

1275
01:31:16,120 --> 01:31:21,690
after 9 other people made other
ugly discoveries.

1276
01:31:21,730 --> 01:31:24,170
For instance, they got into
trouble with their girlfriend

1277
01:31:24,170 --> 01:31:27,610
because the girlfriend realized
when they're hanging out of the

1278
01:31:27,610 --> 01:31:29,650
court couch with her and the
phone buzzes.

1279
01:31:29,650 --> 01:31:32,250
He never says this was a good
moment.

1280
01:31:33,650 --> 01:31:35,570
He never does anything on his
phone.

1281
01:31:36,850 --> 01:31:43,500
So I think the average was
something like 7 to 8 good

1282
01:31:43,500 --> 01:31:48,060
moments or less per week.
And then philosophical

1283
01:31:48,060 --> 01:31:50,620
discussion exploded that was
even more interesting.

1284
01:31:50,620 --> 01:31:54,100
So all these brilliant young PhD
students said yeah, but this

1285
01:31:54,100 --> 01:31:57,820
doesn't show anything.
And if I'm writing a PhD thesis

1286
01:31:57,820 --> 01:32:01,340
and I'm making a contribution to
mankind and it absolutely

1287
01:32:01,340 --> 01:32:05,740
doesn't matter if I'm lonely or
if I'm unhappy, if this doesn't

1288
01:32:05,740 --> 01:32:09,540
say anything about the value of
life or and boom, I couldn't say

1289
01:32:09,540 --> 01:32:12,540
anything anymore.
The defense mechanisms were up.

1290
01:32:13,410 --> 01:32:18,170
But what I would really like to
do is a large Hurlburt style

1291
01:32:18,370 --> 01:32:23,410
experience sampling studies,
just asking people, a large

1292
01:32:23,410 --> 01:32:26,290
number of people, this last
moment before the buzzer rang,

1293
01:32:27,130 --> 01:32:32,490
Would you want to take it into
the afterlife or not as a

1294
01:32:32,490 --> 01:32:37,330
criterion for a moment that
where life was worth living?

1295
01:32:38,770 --> 01:32:43,150
And my working hypothesis is
these moments are rare, much

1296
01:32:43,150 --> 01:32:49,630
rarer than we think.
We all confabulate like patients

1297
01:32:49,630 --> 01:32:52,870
confabulating.
No, I'm having a great life.

1298
01:32:53,070 --> 01:32:55,910
Is we've got that positivity
bias built in?

1299
01:32:55,910 --> 01:32:58,870
Just remembering all the good
times, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1300
01:32:59,230 --> 01:33:05,910
So I think there is a point to
be made that phenomenologically

1301
01:33:08,550 --> 01:33:13,960
and I find it so interesting
that the free energy principle

1302
01:33:13,960 --> 01:33:19,640
try actually tells the same
story, that a human life is 1

1303
01:33:19,680 --> 01:33:25,600
big uphill battle in my view if
we are honest to ourselves.

1304
01:33:26,080 --> 01:33:33,000
It's a strenuous affair to stay
sane in a world like this.

1305
01:33:33,560 --> 01:33:37,520
I mean to protect your mental
health or your dignity.

1306
01:33:37,600 --> 01:33:44,180
Another topic, in a world like
this, it's difficult, it's it

1307
01:33:44,180 --> 01:33:50,500
costs a lot of energy and it
would probably be much better

1308
01:33:50,500 --> 01:33:56,660
for all of this if we could at
least partly admit this to each

1309
01:33:56,660 --> 01:34:00,500
other.
Maybe also doctors to patients,

1310
01:34:01,340 --> 01:34:09,300
that life is very often not easy
for us and that we frequently,

1311
01:34:09,300 --> 01:34:12,420
all of us have experiences of
losing control.

1312
01:34:14,740 --> 01:34:17,340
The philosophical problem, of
course, is, you know, there's

1313
01:34:17,340 --> 01:34:20,380
all this in the consciousness
community, all this talk about

1314
01:34:20,380 --> 01:34:24,100
color vision and, you know,
selfhood.

1315
01:34:25,140 --> 01:34:27,900
But we don't have a good theory
of what suffering is.

1316
01:34:27,900 --> 01:34:30,980
I mean, what is psychological
suffering?

1317
01:34:31,540 --> 01:34:33,700
What is that?
The nastiness of it?

1318
01:34:34,710 --> 01:34:36,950
Can there be a common
computational principle?

1319
01:34:36,950 --> 01:34:42,270
I think they came.
You know, maybe it's if the rate

1320
01:34:42,270 --> 01:34:46,270
of prediction error minimization
goes down unexpectedly.

1321
01:34:46,950 --> 01:34:52,430
You know, if if you unexpectedly
see that you're not doing well,

1322
01:34:54,070 --> 01:34:58,590
that that gets existential and
psychologically unsettling.

1323
01:34:58,910 --> 01:35:03,150
I think it would be a major
achievement to have an abstract

1324
01:35:03,150 --> 01:35:09,080
theory of suffering and then ask
the question, how can this be

1325
01:35:09,080 --> 01:35:14,200
alleviated?
Because I think if there's any

1326
01:35:14,200 --> 01:35:16,200
norm.
So you asked about negative

1327
01:35:16,200 --> 01:35:21,520
utilitarianism.
I think because for two reasons

1328
01:35:21,800 --> 01:35:25,200
I make it very simple.
There's more suffering in the

1329
01:35:25,200 --> 01:35:29,000
world than joy.
And second, there is a shared

1330
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:34,240
moral intuition in almost all
cultures that we can draw on,

1331
01:35:34,650 --> 01:35:38,810
not get into deep philosophical
debates that it is more

1332
01:35:38,810 --> 01:35:44,330
important to help a suffering
person suffer less than to make

1333
01:35:44,370 --> 01:35:47,090
a neutral or happy person more
happy.

1334
01:35:47,930 --> 01:35:53,210
Almost all people can agree on
this, and I think a practical

1335
01:35:53,210 --> 01:35:58,970
ethics can be developed from
this that one, say, admit to

1336
01:35:58,970 --> 01:36:02,250
each other that we're suffering
beings and focus on the

1337
01:36:02,250 --> 01:36:06,500
alleviation of suffering.
The important point, of course,

1338
01:36:06,500 --> 01:36:10,500
is that this also applies to
those people who are not yet

1339
01:36:10,500 --> 01:36:14,700
born to future persons.
They are suffering matters too.

1340
01:36:15,780 --> 01:36:18,980
And you know, climate
catastrophe and everything.

1341
01:36:19,940 --> 01:36:22,460
They have no party in
parliament.

1342
01:36:23,060 --> 01:36:25,380
They have no lawyers who fight
for them.

1343
01:36:27,700 --> 01:36:29,890
The unborn, yeah.
Yeah, I did.

1344
01:36:29,890 --> 01:36:31,410
It does work.
Sorry, sorry.

1345
01:36:31,690 --> 01:36:33,890
That's where that huge chunk of
David Benatar's work.

1346
01:36:33,890 --> 01:36:37,570
I mean, he's probably lives not
too far from here already

1347
01:36:37,890 --> 01:36:41,050
because UCT, he's a UCT
professor in Cape Town.

1348
01:36:41,450 --> 01:36:43,930
Well, I think he was don't
anymore.

1349
01:36:44,170 --> 01:36:46,290
But yeah, I mean, when I read
that work, I find it very

1350
01:36:46,290 --> 01:36:49,770
intriguing.
But in your own work, I mean,

1351
01:36:49,770 --> 01:36:52,810
how do you deal with it as a
medical doctor?

1352
01:36:54,210 --> 01:36:56,970
Does it not sometimes creep up
on you that there's so much

1353
01:36:56,970 --> 01:36:58,480
suffering?
That all the time.

1354
01:36:58,520 --> 01:37:02,200
I mean every time you see it and
it does make you question.

1355
01:37:02,200 --> 01:37:06,160
I've questioned it many times
myself like whether do I want to

1356
01:37:06,160 --> 01:37:10,400
have kids is this I think I
don't know.

1357
01:37:11,720 --> 01:37:14,360
I don't have kids yet but really
not sure.

1358
01:37:14,720 --> 01:37:17,040
And it's and it's mostly because
of what you're talking about.

1359
01:37:17,040 --> 01:37:20,920
I think factoring all the
problems that we've got so far

1360
01:37:20,920 --> 01:37:24,160
and and what they can expect.
I mean, it doesn't look too

1361
01:37:24,160 --> 01:37:28,450
bright, doesn't look too great.
You know, I know of course in

1362
01:37:28,450 --> 01:37:32,130
Germany there's now an
increasing number of young

1363
01:37:32,130 --> 01:37:37,570
people who have themselves
sterilized or do not have

1364
01:37:37,570 --> 01:37:41,770
children, not because of grand
philosophical arguments, but

1365
01:37:41,770 --> 01:37:43,570
because of the climate
catastrophe.

1366
01:37:43,610 --> 01:37:46,730
Because I just think it's
reckless.

1367
01:37:48,170 --> 01:37:52,530
I was there 40 years ago.
It has always been quite obvious

1368
01:37:53,090 --> 01:37:59,400
to me.
But I also find, I mean, if you

1369
01:37:59,400 --> 01:38:04,960
start discussing these issues,
it's in a way it's it's as you

1370
01:38:04,960 --> 01:38:08,640
be as if you begin to confront
the power of evolution itself.

1371
01:38:09,160 --> 01:38:12,000
The resistance in people will be
so strong.

1372
01:38:12,320 --> 01:38:16,440
You know, if you say have you
ever thought about the

1373
01:38:16,440 --> 01:38:20,840
possibility that you may have
inbuilt mechanisms of

1374
01:38:20,840 --> 01:38:27,450
selfdecision, selfdeception, but
that for most people and I also

1375
01:38:27,450 --> 01:38:32,530
think one shouldn't force
discussions or things like that

1376
01:38:32,530 --> 01:38:36,690
on people who just do not want
to hear about this.

1377
01:38:37,250 --> 01:38:40,570
But of course there is a
classical philosophical issues

1378
01:38:40,570 --> 01:38:42,610
and that I mean there are
classical answers.

1379
01:38:43,970 --> 01:38:48,010
Christians have said this is a
serious place.

1380
01:38:48,370 --> 01:38:56,050
Buddhists have said all life is
suffering, and I have one paper

1381
01:38:56,050 --> 01:39:00,370
in this in this edited volume,
The Return of Consciousness,

1382
01:39:01,090 --> 01:39:04,730
which is called Suffering.
I think this speaks also a bit

1383
01:39:04,730 --> 01:39:08,930
to the shallowness of the
current debate, because there

1384
01:39:08,930 --> 01:39:11,170
are a lot of people who are
trying to make a brilliant

1385
01:39:11,170 --> 01:39:15,770
academic career in neuroscience
or philosophy with very smart

1386
01:39:15,770 --> 01:39:20,850
ideas.
But there's this elephant in the

1387
01:39:20,850 --> 01:39:26,170
room that conscious experience
not only involves out of body

1388
01:39:26,170 --> 01:39:30,850
experiences and color vision and
stuff we're all interested in,

1389
01:39:33,330 --> 01:39:39,010
but that it is maybe a mechanism
to drive a gene copying device

1390
01:39:39,010 --> 01:39:42,210
forward.
You know in in this.

1391
01:39:44,330 --> 01:39:51,740
I mean, I have no final verdict
on this, and I'm not sure if I

1392
01:39:51,740 --> 01:39:55,300
were to read up on the technical
literature on negative

1393
01:39:55,340 --> 01:40:00,860
utilitarianism, if it is at all
tenable, what the situation on

1394
01:40:00,860 --> 01:40:03,740
the analytical research frontier
here is.

1395
01:40:05,500 --> 01:40:08,860
But I see we share an intuition
there, yeah?

1396
01:40:09,820 --> 01:40:11,180
I think so.
I think we definitely do,

1397
01:40:12,300 --> 01:40:13,900
Thomas.
Yeah, sorry about that break

1398
01:40:13,900 --> 01:40:16,140
because South Africa, we have
load shedding.

1399
01:40:16,140 --> 01:40:20,390
It's called So it's called low
chilling, literally.

1400
01:40:20,390 --> 01:40:23,590
This is a thing in South Africa
where the country's so corrupt

1401
01:40:23,590 --> 01:40:26,150
and we've got so much going on
where they cannot generate

1402
01:40:26,150 --> 01:40:28,910
enough power.
And because of this, they have

1403
01:40:28,910 --> 01:40:32,070
rolling blackouts in the country
and sometimes up to four hours,

1404
01:40:32,470 --> 01:40:35,310
four times a day.
So you get stuck with almost

1405
01:40:35,310 --> 01:40:36,630
half the day with no
electricity.

1406
01:40:36,630 --> 01:40:40,110
So right now I've got no power.
I'm using a generator and

1407
01:40:40,110 --> 01:40:43,630
inverter to sort of kick
everything in but I.

1408
01:40:43,870 --> 01:40:47,560
Hope one time in my life.
I make it.

1409
01:40:48,320 --> 01:40:52,480
I'm the Asia guy.
I've traveled a lot in, in

1410
01:40:52,560 --> 01:40:54,680
India, Southeast Asia in my
life.

1411
01:40:55,720 --> 01:41:00,080
We never made it South of
Morocco or Egypt.

1412
01:41:01,480 --> 01:41:03,920
I think if you do come to South
Africa, come straight to my city

1413
01:41:03,920 --> 01:41:06,640
Cape Time.
Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful.

1414
01:41:06,640 --> 01:41:08,280
You'd love it.
Yeah, I think, and you'd also

1415
01:41:08,280 --> 01:41:09,640
love it.
I mean, the lot of the academic

1416
01:41:09,640 --> 01:41:13,240
work that's being done on the
side is quite, quite amazing as

1417
01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:16,240
well.
So I think we we've touched on

1418
01:41:16,760 --> 01:41:20,080
certain ethics applications of
how we can understand

1419
01:41:20,080 --> 01:41:23,600
consciousness on from the mind
body problem to the practical

1420
01:41:23,600 --> 01:41:27,600
implications of psychiatry.
Let's your forthcoming book, The

1421
01:41:27,600 --> 01:41:32,200
Elephant and the Blind, Can you
give us a synopsis of what we

1422
01:41:32,200 --> 01:41:35,320
can expect from it?
Yes, I can.

1423
01:41:35,840 --> 01:41:40,720
So there's an Open Access paper
out there.

1424
01:41:41,700 --> 01:41:46,980
Which you can look at, which is
a psychometric study with

1425
01:41:46,980 --> 01:41:50,660
meditators.
It's in Public Library of

1426
01:41:50,660 --> 01:41:57,540
science and it's called the MPE
92 M study.

1427
01:41:57,980 --> 01:42:01,180
You'll find it.
My coauthor's name is Alex

1428
01:42:01,180 --> 01:42:05,460
Gamma, so over the last three
years.

1429
01:42:06,450 --> 01:42:09,130
I've tried to develop a
completely different approach to

1430
01:42:09,130 --> 01:42:12,570
consciousness.
There is a kind of explanation

1431
01:42:12,570 --> 01:42:16,970
moans people don't know about.
It's called a minimal model

1432
01:42:16,970 --> 01:42:22,850
explanation and it means that
you subtract everything from

1433
01:42:22,850 --> 01:42:27,490
your target phenomenon that is
superfluous and not necessary

1434
01:42:27,530 --> 01:42:30,290
for the causal emergence of the
phenomenon.

1435
01:42:31,540 --> 01:42:35,140
So I've asked myself, So what is
the simplest form of conscious

1436
01:42:35,140 --> 01:42:38,900
experience human beings have?
What can you subtract?

1437
01:42:38,900 --> 01:42:42,860
You can subtract color vision,
and you can subtract conscious

1438
01:42:42,860 --> 01:42:47,980
thought.
And I have a candidate Now.

1439
01:42:48,220 --> 01:42:52,860
The candidate It's completely
hypothetical is the experience

1440
01:42:52,860 --> 01:42:56,820
of pure awareness and
meditation, or the simplest

1441
01:42:56,820 --> 01:43:00,820
state of conscious experience.
I'm you must know I'm also a

1442
01:43:00,820 --> 01:43:04,420
long term practitioner.
I've meditated twice a day for

1443
01:43:04,460 --> 01:43:09,260
more than 46 years and done a
lot in my private life about

1444
01:43:09,260 --> 01:43:13,580
which I've never talked so far.
Now after we've done that first

1445
01:43:13,580 --> 01:43:16,540
psychometric study, there's a
much bigger one coming.

1446
01:43:16,540 --> 01:43:22,420
Now we're also non meditators
can describe if let me just ask

1447
01:43:22,420 --> 01:43:25,950
you right now.
And if you look at all the

1448
01:43:25,950 --> 01:43:29,310
conscious experience you have,
the colors, the sounds, my

1449
01:43:29,310 --> 01:43:32,470
voice, your interceptive
sensations.

1450
01:43:34,230 --> 01:43:40,710
Can you attend to the quality of
consciousness as such?

1451
01:43:42,070 --> 01:43:44,310
Honestly, I don't think so.
Right.

1452
01:43:44,390 --> 01:43:46,550
OK.
See, that is the question.

1453
01:43:47,030 --> 01:43:51,870
And the idea is that there's
actually a phenomenal character

1454
01:43:52,590 --> 01:43:56,650
to.
Awareness as such, which is

1455
01:43:56,650 --> 01:44:00,650
completely transparent to almost
every normal human being, You

1456
01:44:00,650 --> 01:44:04,770
never feel it.
But meditators could be a

1457
01:44:04,770 --> 01:44:10,170
population that cultivates this
awareness of awareness.

1458
01:44:10,290 --> 01:44:14,050
Meta attention, attention to
attention.

1459
01:44:14,930 --> 01:44:19,290
OK, so we did the psychometric
studies and we had some results

1460
01:44:19,330 --> 01:44:31,370
and we had about. 3624 surveys
of which we could use 1403 And

1461
01:44:31,370 --> 01:44:34,730
then we said, if you you don't
have to do this, but if you want

1462
01:44:34,730 --> 01:44:39,250
to describe in words a
paradigmatic experience you've

1463
01:44:39,370 --> 01:44:44,730
had in which you experienced
consciousness as such, please

1464
01:44:44,730 --> 01:44:51,100
give us a written description.
And that led to 841 reports from

1465
01:44:51,180 --> 01:44:56,300
57 different countries where
people described what they

1466
01:44:56,300 --> 01:44:58,220
think.
Is that what you think is

1467
01:44:58,220 --> 01:45:00,700
unknown to you?
And of course they may be

1468
01:45:00,700 --> 01:45:04,020
confabulating, they may
misinterpreting, they have their

1469
01:45:04,020 --> 01:45:06,980
own philosophical ideas, and so
on.

1470
01:45:08,100 --> 01:45:12,340
But in that book I've tried to
make a step forward.

1471
01:45:13,540 --> 01:45:17,740
Before going into any grandiose
philosophical theorizing about

1472
01:45:17,740 --> 01:45:22,260
pure awareness or demanding
research programs before one

1473
01:45:22,260 --> 01:45:26,180
knows what we're talking about,
I've just made an attempt to

1474
01:45:26,180 --> 01:45:31,300
take the phenomenology very
seriously, and I've presented

1475
01:45:31,660 --> 01:45:36,540
excerpts from about 500 reports
by meditators how they describe

1476
01:45:36,540 --> 01:45:41,040
the Pure Awareness experience.
And it's for a wider audience,

1477
01:45:41,040 --> 01:45:44,320
so that every chapter has a
first part where you can just

1478
01:45:44,320 --> 01:45:47,880
read the descriptions.
And then there are some ideas,

1479
01:45:47,880 --> 01:45:51,240
some from neuroscience or
philosophy.

1480
01:45:52,320 --> 01:45:55,360
And then you find common
denominators.

1481
01:45:55,840 --> 01:45:57,800
Very simple.
So I have it here.

1482
01:45:57,800 --> 01:46:01,760
So the first chapter is just
called relaxation.

1483
01:46:02,080 --> 01:46:07,200
That's trivial for most people.
There is a phenomenology of

1484
01:46:07,200 --> 01:46:10,460
being deeply relaxed.
The second most frequent thing

1485
01:46:10,460 --> 01:46:15,820
is people describe it as peace,
no thoughts absent of mental

1486
01:46:15,820 --> 01:46:20,900
conflict.
Then you have silence, mental

1487
01:46:20,900 --> 01:46:23,540
silence.
Then you have wake.

1488
01:46:23,540 --> 01:46:26,820
For us, there's some people
describe a distinct

1489
01:46:26,820 --> 01:46:32,700
phenomenology of being awake.
And now let me ask you a

1490
01:46:32,700 --> 01:46:34,580
question.
Has it ever happened to you?

1491
01:46:35,980 --> 01:46:41,140
Sometimes one wakes up maybe two
or three times in a year, a

1492
01:46:41,140 --> 01:46:44,980
little too early, even, and one
has had a particularly good

1493
01:46:44,980 --> 01:46:47,220
night's sleep.
A particularly good rest.

1494
01:46:47,220 --> 01:46:49,740
Yeah, that actually one feels
last night.

1495
01:46:50,500 --> 01:46:54,340
Yeah, you had.
Now, if you don't make the

1496
01:46:54,340 --> 01:47:00,980
mistake, imagine you haven't
made the mistake to look into

1497
01:47:00,980 --> 01:47:03,740
your phone or connect to the
Internet.

1498
01:47:04,140 --> 01:47:07,860
And you haven't made a mistake
to talk to anybody.

1499
01:47:09,460 --> 01:47:13,380
You just got up a little early,
super fresh, and maybe with your

1500
01:47:13,380 --> 01:47:18,220
first cup of tea or coffee, you
just sat out on the terrace on

1501
01:47:18,220 --> 01:47:23,580
the balcony and just sat there
and you were just wide awake and

1502
01:47:23,580 --> 01:47:25,700
super well rested, nothing
dramatic.

1503
01:47:26,580 --> 01:47:29,180
And you listened to the birds
and you sipped your tea.

1504
01:47:30,820 --> 01:47:34,430
There was maybe a time.
Where there was a gap between

1505
01:47:34,430 --> 01:47:39,710
two thoughts, maybe a two second
gap.

1506
01:47:40,870 --> 01:47:44,750
That is it.
It's so simple, every human

1507
01:47:44,750 --> 01:47:46,230
being knows it that you
overlook.

1508
01:47:46,230 --> 01:47:49,230
Yes, I can say fancy things
about it.

1509
01:47:49,230 --> 01:47:53,270
For instance, I can also say the
phenomenal character of tonic,

1510
01:47:53,270 --> 01:47:59,560
alertness, and if one.
Describe it.

1511
01:47:59,560 --> 01:48:02,680
It has interesting other
phenomenal phenomenological

1512
01:48:02,680 --> 01:48:08,520
characteristics, for instance
density or soundness, and then

1513
01:48:08,520 --> 01:48:12,360
you get into deeper aspects of
it like non rule, awareness,

1514
01:48:12,360 --> 01:48:16,560
absence of itself.
It can take different forms, but

1515
01:48:16,560 --> 01:48:21,640
I think one possibility is, and
by the way, I'm not going to go

1516
01:48:21,640 --> 01:48:24,800
into this book.
So you have 500 reports and I'm

1517
01:48:24,800 --> 01:48:29,170
trying to offer the community.
A careful phenomenological

1518
01:48:29,170 --> 01:48:34,810
description of pure awareness.
I'm creating appetizers and

1519
01:48:34,850 --> 01:48:37,050
people should cook their own
main courses.

1520
01:48:37,050 --> 01:48:40,650
That's the idea, right?
I'm just preparing for a minimum

1521
01:48:40,650 --> 01:48:47,490
model explanation of
consciousness, but there are

1522
01:48:47,490 --> 01:48:52,850
interesting things in there.
For instance, I would say in

1523
01:48:52,850 --> 01:48:56,610
Carl Frisson's term, what
everybody has overlooked.

1524
01:48:57,320 --> 01:49:00,160
Is that the strongest source of
perturbation?

1525
01:49:00,720 --> 01:49:04,680
That's my theory.
The strongest external stimulus

1526
01:49:04,680 --> 01:49:08,840
that has to be explained away is
not something that comes in

1527
01:49:08,840 --> 01:49:11,680
through sensory modules or
through interception in the

1528
01:49:11,680 --> 01:49:14,640
talamos.
But is the activity of the

1529
01:49:14,640 --> 01:49:18,560
formatioreticularis the
ascending activation system in

1530
01:49:18,560 --> 01:49:24,160
the brainstem that is actually
biophysically the most massive?

1531
01:49:24,920 --> 01:49:30,640
Completely unexplained signal
source within the body, yes, and

1532
01:49:31,720 --> 01:49:34,200
this happens when you wake up in
the morning.

1533
01:49:35,640 --> 01:49:39,600
And what we need to control our
own level of tonic alertness.

1534
01:49:39,600 --> 01:49:45,840
So my highly speculative theory
goes is a predictive model of

1535
01:49:45,840 --> 01:49:49,080
the level of cortical arousal,
the level of tonic alertness,

1536
01:49:49,120 --> 01:49:54,040
different aspects to there that
allows the Organism to.

1537
01:49:54,610 --> 01:49:59,370
You know, control its own long
term wakefulness and I think

1538
01:49:59,370 --> 01:50:03,530
that might be the simplest form
of conscious experience shared

1539
01:50:03,530 --> 01:50:09,330
by all human beings.
And if you listen to that, I

1540
01:50:09,330 --> 01:50:13,010
found that in Mark Songs latest
book Yes, The Hidden Spring.

1541
01:50:13,690 --> 01:50:15,090
I was.
It's exactly what I was thinking

1542
01:50:15,090 --> 01:50:18,050
about, yeah.
Yeah, there's this tradition,

1543
01:50:18,050 --> 01:50:21,570
there's this tradition that
Marsio Panz said.

1544
01:50:21,650 --> 01:50:25,980
Mark songs where they have.
More the idea that this is

1545
01:50:25,980 --> 01:50:30,620
actually a homostatic
autoregulation or it's then I've

1546
01:50:30,620 --> 01:50:35,380
said that I said that in being
no one that it is elementary

1547
01:50:35,380 --> 01:50:40,540
bioregulation that you so to
speak, you feel the sheer fact

1548
01:50:40,540 --> 01:50:46,140
of aliveness itself, the
Organism trying to stabilize

1549
01:50:46,140 --> 01:50:49,820
itself almost attically.
I think there's one step below

1550
01:50:49,820 --> 01:50:54,370
this I.
My thinking is very parallel in

1551
01:50:54,370 --> 01:51:00,290
that respect to Mark, Sorm says
there is this very low, this

1552
01:51:00,290 --> 01:51:04,850
very fundamental subcortical
signal source, which I think has

1553
01:51:04,850 --> 01:51:08,610
to be predictively modeled by
the brain, and that creates the

1554
01:51:08,610 --> 01:51:14,210
experience of wakefulness.
But I think in my terminology

1555
01:51:15,130 --> 01:51:20,130
it's not aliveness but sheer
epistemic openness, as I call

1556
01:51:20,130 --> 01:51:21,050
it.
It is.

1557
01:51:22,530 --> 01:51:27,250
As neuroscientists would say,
stimulus readiness, the

1558
01:51:27,250 --> 01:51:33,690
experience of stimulus
readiness, the availability of

1559
01:51:33,690 --> 01:51:40,370
executive control without having
to exert it, and I think there

1560
01:51:40,370 --> 01:51:48,650
is an overlooked, very subtle,
very simple phenomenology of

1561
01:51:48,650 --> 01:51:56,130
just being awake and aware.
And I think that could lead to a

1562
01:51:56,130 --> 01:52:00,890
minimal model explanation of
consciousness, because that is

1563
01:52:00,890 --> 01:52:04,530
what I'm very much interested in
research right now.

1564
01:52:06,170 --> 01:52:10,450
There are rare advanced
practitioners of meditation who

1565
01:52:10,450 --> 01:52:13,770
report about something that is
sometimes called clear light

1566
01:52:13,770 --> 01:52:19,050
sleep or witnessing sleep, an
experience of being awake during

1567
01:52:19,050 --> 01:52:22,810
non REM sleep.
No dreams, no content, don't

1568
01:52:22,810 --> 01:52:25,490
feel the body, don't hear the
environment in the bedroom.

1569
01:52:26,770 --> 01:52:29,610
If that could be proven, it's
not proven.

1570
01:52:29,970 --> 01:52:35,170
But if that could be empirically
shown that this phenomenon

1571
01:52:35,170 --> 01:52:40,370
exists, pure wakefulness in a
completely paralyzed body in the

1572
01:52:40,370 --> 01:52:47,010
non REM state, I think that
would be a major pro progress in

1573
01:52:47,010 --> 01:52:49,450
the consciousness community,
because then we have.

1574
01:52:50,310 --> 01:52:54,550
Subtracted all perceptual
content we have subtracted the

1575
01:52:54,550 --> 01:52:59,910
self, we have subtracted the
first person perspective, but we

1576
01:52:59,910 --> 01:53:04,870
have some phenomenal experience.
He's embodied even although it's

1577
01:53:04,870 --> 01:53:06,590
it's of course neurologically
speaking.

1578
01:53:06,590 --> 01:53:11,270
So if you experience a part of
your brain, right, which is of

1579
01:53:11,270 --> 01:53:13,350
course then politically
incorrect, and all the

1580
01:53:13,350 --> 01:53:17,750
meditators don't like it, they
hate it because it interferes

1581
01:53:17,750 --> 01:53:21,400
with their mortality denial.
So this gives you an idea where

1582
01:53:21,400 --> 01:53:25,600
I go.
I think we should try to aim at

1583
01:53:25,600 --> 01:53:31,240
a minimal model explanation and
actually say what is that which

1584
01:53:31,240 --> 01:53:34,920
cannot be subtracted from
conscious experience.

1585
01:53:36,200 --> 01:53:40,960
And I think it is the silent
clarity involved in wakefulness

1586
01:53:40,960 --> 01:53:44,850
somehow and.
That's the elephant, And there

1587
01:53:44,850 --> 01:53:48,410
are many blind who touch it from
very, very many different

1588
01:53:49,050 --> 01:53:53,730
directions over the centuries.
So that's a bit where I'm going.

1589
01:53:53,730 --> 01:53:58,970
Of course I have more to say.
You can't spill all the bees and

1590
01:53:58,970 --> 01:53:59,730
see it.
It's.

1591
01:54:00,250 --> 01:54:01,930
Yeah, yeah.
We'll have to wait to read it.

1592
01:54:03,370 --> 01:54:06,650
No, Thomas, I mean I'm super
eager to read this book.

1593
01:54:07,330 --> 01:54:10,810
I've got two of your books on my
on my bookshelf, being no one

1594
01:54:10,810 --> 01:54:15,400
ego tunnel, setting up the, I've
actually got them very close to

1595
01:54:15,400 --> 01:54:18,880
Dennis's books.
Like I theme my books in a

1596
01:54:18,880 --> 01:54:22,760
certain way and I sort of put
certain things like who've had

1597
01:54:22,760 --> 01:54:25,920
similar views, maybe not the
same, but I tend to put them in

1598
01:54:25,920 --> 01:54:28,320
similar places.
Yeah, no, I think I've learned a

1599
01:54:28,320 --> 01:54:32,000
lot of It's very fashionable to
criticize Dan.

1600
01:54:32,000 --> 01:54:36,000
I still know when, as a PhD
student, I was allowed to peep

1601
01:54:36,000 --> 01:54:40,760
in at the big guys at the Center
for Interdisciplinary Research

1602
01:54:40,760 --> 01:54:45,110
in Bielefeld, Germany.
And there were all these heroes,

1603
01:54:45,110 --> 01:54:50,270
you know, Jake one, Kim and
Robert von Goulik.

1604
01:54:50,310 --> 01:54:53,110
And and I met David in a
swimming pool.

1605
01:54:53,110 --> 01:54:57,630
I still remember.
And you know, many people have

1606
01:54:57,710 --> 01:55:00,830
this and that criticism.
One never knows what he really

1607
01:55:00,830 --> 01:55:04,070
says and what is actually is the
thesis and what is the argument.

1608
01:55:04,990 --> 01:55:09,510
But I think what we all
underestimate is how much we

1609
01:55:09,510 --> 01:55:12,070
have learned from him, from his
books.

1610
01:55:13,100 --> 01:55:16,460
You know how important
Consciousness Explained was in

1611
01:55:16,460 --> 01:55:18,220
1991?
For many people?

1612
01:55:18,540 --> 01:55:21,900
People forget that, yes.
But he has been a real trail

1613
01:55:21,900 --> 01:55:25,500
brazer and I think a lot of
people have learned a lot from

1614
01:55:25,500 --> 01:55:27,220
him.
Yeah, I think.

1615
01:55:27,460 --> 01:55:30,460
I think that's that's a perfect
note because well, something I

1616
01:55:30,460 --> 01:55:34,580
often ask my guests as we
conclude is if you had to think

1617
01:55:34,580 --> 01:55:41,140
of around your perfect to call
your perfect dinner with guests

1618
01:55:41,760 --> 01:55:44,800
or or or your Mount Rushmore or
favorite scientist slash

1619
01:55:44,800 --> 01:55:47,800
philosophers, who would those
people be?

1620
01:55:47,800 --> 01:55:53,240
You're they're like a top four.
If you had to really think best

1621
01:55:53,240 --> 01:55:56,320
philosophers in history or
greatest or most influential to

1622
01:55:56,320 --> 01:56:02,960
you at least.
Well, of course in the modern

1623
01:56:02,960 --> 01:56:10,560
debate of the mind body problem
since say, O&T plays after.

1624
01:56:11,730 --> 01:56:17,650
The concept of mind people who
stand out to me are Hilary

1625
01:56:17,650 --> 01:56:22,130
Putnam and Jeguan Kim.
I've greatly profited from them.

1626
01:56:23,010 --> 01:56:27,610
But actually much more
interesting is the completely

1627
01:56:27,610 --> 01:56:34,010
unknown young people there are.
Brilliant young people who are

1628
01:56:34,010 --> 01:56:37,890
not going to name because they
will be embarrassed and probably

1629
01:56:37,890 --> 01:56:41,610
would find a dinner with me
boring and had to be polite.

1630
01:56:42,050 --> 01:56:47,410
But there are, you know, there
are what fascinates me on a

1631
01:56:47,410 --> 01:56:51,210
planet with 8 billion people.
There are some people where

1632
01:56:51,210 --> 01:56:55,130
everything went right.
They have been smart.

1633
01:56:55,690 --> 01:57:00,810
They had a normal, you know,
childhood experience with

1634
01:57:00,810 --> 01:57:03,760
parents.
They were in a rich country.

1635
01:57:04,120 --> 01:57:06,320
They could go to a good
university.

1636
01:57:06,320 --> 01:57:11,120
For some people it works out.
They found mentors and there's a

1637
01:57:11,120 --> 01:57:15,280
breathtaking new generation in
the consciousness community.

1638
01:57:15,280 --> 01:57:20,720
You will only know their names
in 15 to 20 years, but the

1639
01:57:20,720 --> 01:57:24,480
standard has really risen since
my time.

1640
01:57:24,480 --> 01:57:31,040
And if if if I look at this they
know math.

1641
01:57:32,570 --> 01:57:34,730
English is like a second
language for them.

1642
01:57:34,730 --> 01:57:40,210
They swim in the Internet like
fish, you know, and they will

1643
01:57:40,210 --> 01:57:45,490
take this thing further.
And I'm I'm all I'm not

1644
01:57:45,490 --> 01:57:50,050
criticizing you, but I always
find it stupid how journalists

1645
01:57:50,050 --> 01:57:54,810
or television people only want
their prominent old people, you

1646
01:57:54,810 --> 01:57:59,570
know, while there are so many
good people in their N 20s

1647
01:57:59,730 --> 01:58:04,100
around.
Which breathtaking ideas?

1648
01:58:04,620 --> 01:58:12,260
But it will take 15 years until
anybody takes notice, and so I

1649
01:58:12,260 --> 01:58:17,900
would probably prefer if I could
just quietly sit with these

1650
01:58:19,140 --> 01:58:27,660
young people who impress me by
having a meditation practice.

1651
01:58:28,130 --> 01:58:33,810
Smoking 5 methoxy DMT and being
good academically at the same

1652
01:58:33,810 --> 01:58:40,290
time.
There are some and sounds like

1653
01:58:40,290 --> 01:58:41,570
my friends that I had Med
school.

1654
01:58:44,890 --> 01:58:47,450
How did they turn it out?
Very.

1655
01:58:47,450 --> 01:58:49,530
Some people did a lot of crazy
stuff.

1656
01:58:49,530 --> 01:58:51,690
Some people quit, quit smoking
completely.

1657
01:58:51,690 --> 01:58:54,490
Some people stopped drinking
completely, life changing

1658
01:58:54,490 --> 01:58:56,930
things.
Some people, some failed.

1659
01:58:59,590 --> 01:59:04,910
So what I really appreciate is
people who do their homework

1660
01:59:04,910 --> 01:59:10,990
academically, but for whom this
is also something existential,

1661
01:59:10,990 --> 01:59:16,350
not just careerism, and who in
their own life do something, you

1662
01:59:16,350 --> 01:59:19,750
know, to explore this.
I've been this guy for all my

1663
01:59:19,750 --> 01:59:23,630
life to explore this from
different angles and not just by

1664
01:59:23,630 --> 01:59:29,250
reading books and.
You know, consciousness is not

1665
01:59:29,250 --> 01:59:32,090
like any other theoretical
problem.

1666
01:59:32,730 --> 01:59:37,330
In the end, it has something to
do with your own life and you

1667
01:59:37,330 --> 01:59:41,690
can't just just be a nerd.
It doesn't work.

1668
01:59:41,850 --> 01:59:45,210
But yeah, exactly.
No, I think I completely agree

1669
01:59:45,210 --> 01:59:47,410
with you.
I think it takes that

1670
01:59:47,410 --> 01:59:48,730
exploration has to be part of
it.

1671
01:59:48,730 --> 01:59:51,210
You can't just sit idly and read
books the whole time.

1672
01:59:51,210 --> 01:59:55,250
You have to actually get engage
with this and it's the mind body

1673
01:59:55,250 --> 01:59:58,570
problem is often say it's
something that's difficult both

1674
01:59:58,570 --> 02:00:02,410
intellectually and practically.
You have to sort of engage with

1675
02:00:02,410 --> 02:00:05,850
this within both spheres, and I
think you do that wonderfully.

1676
02:00:06,810 --> 02:00:10,450
I think that is also what this
idea of a babusta and scouture

1677
02:00:10,810 --> 02:00:12,330
alludes to.
There's a risk.

1678
02:00:12,570 --> 02:00:14,690
I've seen this in training young
people.

1679
02:00:14,690 --> 02:00:20,650
You can be in the top 2% and be
a little bit on the autistic

1680
02:00:20,650 --> 02:00:24,810
spectrum and study perfectly
well.

1681
02:00:24,810 --> 02:00:30,810
Write a PhD thesis, be superb
and then have no good ideas.

1682
02:00:31,530 --> 02:00:37,170
At 32 just have no good ideas
because you were only always

1683
02:00:37,170 --> 02:00:40,330
good at passing all tests and
knowing everything.

1684
02:00:41,170 --> 02:00:46,090
And this also has to do
something with the, you know,

1685
02:00:46,090 --> 02:00:50,370
the educational idea or idea,
what academia is.

1686
02:00:50,370 --> 02:00:55,490
In an ideal world, it should be
possible to also live an

1687
02:00:55,490 --> 02:01:00,130
examined life and experiment
with your own mind and your own

1688
02:01:00,130 --> 02:01:04,010
consciousness.
But I see the chances.

1689
02:01:04,010 --> 02:01:07,450
I don't know about South Africa,
but they're becoming slimmer and

1690
02:01:07,450 --> 02:01:12,490
slimmer because everything is so
competitive and there's this

1691
02:01:12,490 --> 02:01:17,930
fierce competition and scars
resources, and it breeds a

1692
02:01:17,930 --> 02:01:20,970
certain kind of researcher
personality.

1693
02:01:22,090 --> 02:01:30,210
And that may be very effective
in some fields, but somehow I

1694
02:01:30,210 --> 02:01:33,330
think in consciousness research
we need people with a wider

1695
02:01:33,330 --> 02:01:36,290
perspective somehow.
Yes, you can't have.

1696
02:01:36,290 --> 02:01:38,490
You can't have that one.
You can't have those students

1697
02:01:38,490 --> 02:01:42,650
who are purely committed to
trying to grow their career,

1698
02:01:42,650 --> 02:01:45,290
whereas they're not really
trying to actively engage with

1699
02:01:45,290 --> 02:01:50,070
the topic in that.
If it incorporates meditation

1700
02:01:50,070 --> 02:01:51,950
for example.
I mean not many of them are

1701
02:01:51,950 --> 02:01:54,830
going to actively do the
daytoday meditation.

1702
02:01:54,830 --> 02:01:57,230
If they know that, they could
just read one more book and pass

1703
02:01:57,230 --> 02:02:01,990
the exam.
Yeah, it's in the time I have.

1704
02:02:02,070 --> 02:02:06,070
You know, I've taught in eight
German universities until I

1705
02:02:06,070 --> 02:02:09,910
retired.
They are under stress.

1706
02:02:10,310 --> 02:02:14,590
When I studied philosophy, it,
it was a much more interesting

1707
02:02:15,110 --> 02:02:18,760
time.
I mean, I also had time to go to

1708
02:02:18,760 --> 02:02:22,640
demonstrations and have myself
beaten up by cops and go go to

1709
02:02:22,640 --> 02:02:25,160
India.
They don't have this time

1710
02:02:25,160 --> 02:02:30,040
anymore and they are nervous
about their CV and they have

1711
02:02:30,040 --> 02:02:32,560
these modular.
I don't know if you have this in

1712
02:02:32,560 --> 02:02:37,240
South Africa, this fully
modularized B AM a system where

1713
02:02:37,240 --> 02:02:41,720
they really have to plan how
they study and what examinations

1714
02:02:41,720 --> 02:02:47,030
are coming up.
They can't waste a year on get

1715
02:02:47,030 --> 02:02:50,110
falling in love with Nietzsche
or some strange philosopher and

1716
02:02:50,110 --> 02:02:52,750
nothing comes of it, you know?
Yeah, especially with an

1717
02:02:52,750 --> 02:02:56,430
overpopulation crisis.
I mean, it's pretty much do or

1718
02:02:56,430 --> 02:02:59,150
die at this point.
You gotta it's either you get up

1719
02:02:59,150 --> 02:03:01,190
and do it or you're just gonna
fall behind.

1720
02:03:01,390 --> 02:03:03,350
So it gets quite competitive,
yes.

1721
02:03:03,390 --> 02:03:10,940
And somehow we need protected
spaces which are not an excuse

1722
02:03:10,940 --> 02:03:13,300
for just hanging around and
doing nothing.

1723
02:03:15,340 --> 02:03:21,340
There's nothing really a problem
to be dissolved there because

1724
02:03:21,340 --> 02:03:24,380
because we know the other
extreme of course exists too.

1725
02:03:24,580 --> 02:03:26,180
Yeah, exactly.
It's always about finding that

1726
02:03:26,180 --> 02:03:28,460
perfect balance when you're
looking for that perfect amount

1727
02:03:28,460 --> 02:03:30,460
of book smart and street smart
at the same time.

1728
02:03:30,460 --> 02:03:33,940
Just bringing them together and
isn't it true?

1729
02:03:34,060 --> 02:03:38,660
I mean to study leave alone
psychiatry, but to study

1730
02:03:38,660 --> 02:03:43,300
psychiatry, to study medicine is
a very demanding path.

1731
02:03:43,700 --> 02:03:47,460
It is right, but it doesn't
leave much space.

1732
02:03:47,660 --> 02:03:51,260
How did you do that, that you
could still read philosophy

1733
02:03:51,260 --> 02:03:52,460
books?
How could you do that?

1734
02:03:52,620 --> 02:03:55,660
I mean it was very difficult,
but I think it was, I think when

1735
02:03:55,660 --> 02:03:57,220
you question things
philosophically, there was a

1736
02:03:57,220 --> 02:03:59,340
period in Med school where I
went through its.

1737
02:03:59,830 --> 02:04:02,870
Deeply, deeply depressed mood
for a long while.

1738
02:04:03,310 --> 02:04:05,710
But it was during that time
where I mean, as you brought up

1739
02:04:05,710 --> 02:04:08,990
earlier, I read a lot more
philosophy journals.

1740
02:04:08,990 --> 02:04:11,550
I mean I read so many more
philosophical books.

1741
02:04:12,830 --> 02:04:17,230
And I mean it was tough.
You often feel guilty cuz you

1742
02:04:17,230 --> 02:04:19,470
have to read the textbooks, you
have to constantly study all the

1743
02:04:19,470 --> 02:04:22,030
time.
But I just made a plan because I

1744
02:04:22,030 --> 02:04:24,990
felt like this is just too
intriguing to not do.

1745
02:04:25,970 --> 02:04:27,930
You reached at one point where
you just got to sacrifice

1746
02:04:27,930 --> 02:04:30,530
something else, perhaps, Maybe
not God with your friends once

1747
02:04:30,530 --> 02:04:33,170
in a while, and read a
philosophy book every now and

1748
02:04:33,170 --> 02:04:36,770
then, oh God, with your friends
as well, and then get some sort

1749
02:04:36,770 --> 02:04:39,890
of a philosophical view out of
that experience as well.

1750
02:04:40,210 --> 02:04:44,250
So you're a bad doctor now, A
bad but philosophically informed

1751
02:04:44,250 --> 02:04:50,290
Dr. Hopefully not.
I'll let my patients do that

1752
02:04:50,290 --> 02:04:51,810
now.
I think it's it's all about

1753
02:04:51,810 --> 02:04:53,490
finding that balance and I think
I did that well.

1754
02:04:53,490 --> 02:04:57,940
I often used music as that.
As that guides to to sort of

1755
02:04:57,940 --> 02:05:00,620
that meditative practice for me,
I think is music and like

1756
02:05:00,620 --> 02:05:04,340
playing an instrument, I think,
yeah, so I think that's and

1757
02:05:04,340 --> 02:05:07,100
yeah, meditating as well.
It's something that deeply

1758
02:05:07,100 --> 02:05:09,940
enjoyed.
I mean another area that is very

1759
02:05:09,940 --> 02:05:15,060
relevant we haven't talked about
is in philosophy is applied

1760
02:05:15,060 --> 02:05:18,180
ethics.
I once founded a research unit

1761
02:05:18,180 --> 02:05:23,020
for ethics of neurotechnology
like new interventions in the

1762
02:05:23,020 --> 02:05:26,820
brain becoming better.
And of course in medical

1763
02:05:26,820 --> 02:05:31,580
practice you are really
confronted with ethical issues.

1764
02:05:31,940 --> 02:05:37,860
I mean I once had to go, I had a
very sad time in my life and had

1765
02:05:37,860 --> 02:05:42,580
to go to a bone marrow
transplant ward and see 40

1766
02:05:42,580 --> 02:05:47,140
people die and not a single
person survive there of of

1767
02:05:47,140 --> 02:05:50,780
leukemia.
And afterwards, I always said as

1768
02:05:50,780 --> 02:05:55,790
a philosopher, the patients have
been to be protected from the

1769
02:05:55,790 --> 02:05:58,190
interests of the medical
industry.

1770
02:05:59,110 --> 02:06:04,430
And after I had seen the
fantastic job these gay

1771
02:06:04,430 --> 02:06:10,470
intensive care nurses do at 2:45
at night, get paid a really bad

1772
02:06:10,470 --> 02:06:15,210
salary for it, I thought.
Two things, I thought, no, it's

1773
02:06:15,210 --> 02:06:18,650
all wrong from what I really saw
at bedside.

1774
02:06:18,890 --> 02:06:23,490
The patient has to be protected
from its their relatives and the

1775
02:06:23,490 --> 02:06:27,730
emotional needs of their
relatives in that dying process.

1776
02:06:28,210 --> 02:06:32,050
And second, all the lazy people
in my philosophy department

1777
02:06:32,050 --> 02:06:35,250
should be fired, and these
people should be paid a better

1778
02:06:35,250 --> 02:06:38,250
salary.
You know these intensive care

1779
02:06:38,250 --> 02:06:42,020
nurses, I I agree.
I drastically changed my views

1780
02:06:42,020 --> 02:06:46,980
from seeing what is really
happening on on such a ward and

1781
02:06:46,980 --> 02:06:51,580
of course they confront these
issues never.

1782
02:06:52,460 --> 02:06:57,380
I mean about, say, how you call
this assisted suicide, I think

1783
02:06:57,380 --> 02:07:05,070
is the I mean, they have to make
these decisions, and nobody ever

1784
02:07:05,070 --> 02:07:08,550
technically discusses that.
They could use little philosophy

1785
02:07:08,550 --> 02:07:12,710
seminars.
And of course, many of the

1786
02:07:12,710 --> 02:07:14,950
solutions they find are even
illegal.

1787
02:07:14,950 --> 02:07:18,150
They have to do them undercover
at their own risk.

1788
02:07:19,030 --> 02:07:21,510
They have to deal with angry
relatives.

1789
02:07:22,190 --> 02:07:27,710
I've seen the situations where
the patient is ready to die and

1790
02:07:27,710 --> 02:07:31,190
the doctor is ready and
everything's clear, but the

1791
02:07:31,190 --> 02:07:36,500
relatives aren't, you know, And
Speaking of alleviation of

1792
02:07:36,500 --> 02:07:40,860
suffering, it would be good, I
think, if there were specialized

1793
02:07:40,860 --> 02:07:45,340
applied ethic courses for
intensive care nurses and

1794
02:07:45,340 --> 02:07:49,780
doctors so that they can think
about these things in a more

1795
02:07:49,780 --> 02:07:57,180
structured way when people ask
them for help and people ask for

1796
02:07:57,180 --> 02:08:01,420
help, and then they basically
try to do the right thing.

1797
02:08:01,890 --> 02:08:04,850
I don't know if that appears in
your practice.

1798
02:08:05,570 --> 02:08:08,610
I know in South Africa it's very
much the same.

1799
02:08:08,610 --> 02:08:12,290
I think the amount of philosophy
that doctors are taught or even

1800
02:08:12,370 --> 02:08:13,930
I mean I think patients in
general.

1801
02:08:13,930 --> 02:08:16,530
That's why I think once I've
heard you say that you think it

1802
02:08:16,530 --> 02:08:20,730
should be important that in
schools they have certain

1803
02:08:20,730 --> 02:08:25,010
practices that are fundamental
to us growing into sort of, I

1804
02:08:25,010 --> 02:08:28,140
wouldn't say better adults, but.
I mean certain things like being

1805
02:08:28,180 --> 02:08:30,900
taught about meditative
practices, being taught more

1806
02:08:30,900 --> 02:08:35,060
philosophical ideas at a young
age, because I mean this sort of

1807
02:08:35,060 --> 02:08:39,660
grooms, this would this would in
practice groom a relative from a

1808
02:08:39,660 --> 02:08:42,300
young age to actually be
supportive for that person,

1809
02:08:43,420 --> 02:08:46,180
these sort of human skills that
we tend to lack or tend to focus

1810
02:08:46,180 --> 02:08:48,660
on ourselves.
So I completely agree with you.

1811
02:08:48,660 --> 02:08:50,980
I think that's a field that
needs so much work.

1812
02:08:54,150 --> 02:08:59,190
Have you ever been exposed, like
to medical ethics or applied

1813
02:08:59,190 --> 02:09:01,550
ethics as part of your study?
Yeah, we do.

1814
02:09:01,550 --> 02:09:03,150
We do.
We don't do enough, I can tell

1815
02:09:03,150 --> 02:09:05,190
you that.
I get.

1816
02:09:05,190 --> 02:09:10,350
So they generally fall into
very, very superficial topics.

1817
02:09:10,830 --> 02:09:15,430
They they focus very much on
principalism and certain ethical

1818
02:09:16,310 --> 02:09:18,070
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so you get into those.

1819
02:09:18,070 --> 02:09:20,230
Just beneficent non maleficence,
yeah yeah.

1820
02:09:20,840 --> 02:09:22,760
And then you just get stuck into
that and then you go into

1821
02:09:22,760 --> 02:09:26,000
Kasuistry where you focus on
just case based ethics.

1822
02:09:26,160 --> 02:09:28,920
Then we go into everything else,
utilitarianism and every other

1823
02:09:28,920 --> 02:09:31,000
form of it.
But it tends to majority,

1824
02:09:31,000 --> 02:09:35,000
majority of the focus is on that
principalism and and then as

1825
02:09:35,000 --> 02:09:36,880
long as you're not doing harm,
you're doing good.

1826
02:09:37,080 --> 02:09:41,160
It's kind of like you don't, and
this is actually a way of

1827
02:09:41,160 --> 02:09:44,160
defending yourself from the
messiness of real life

1828
02:09:44,160 --> 02:09:48,240
situations, isn't it?
Exactly in your practice?

1829
02:09:48,240 --> 02:09:52,870
Do you ever encounter a
situation where you think, God,

1830
02:09:52,910 --> 02:09:58,030
I would really like to be able
to call somebody now a

1831
02:09:58,030 --> 02:10:00,990
professional ethicist and ask
for advice.

1832
02:10:01,590 --> 02:10:04,470
Yeah, lots should be something
like an information clearance

1833
02:10:04,470 --> 02:10:06,470
house or something like that.
No, definitely.

1834
02:10:06,470 --> 02:10:09,030
So if you work in a hospital in
South Africa, and if you have

1835
02:10:09,030 --> 02:10:11,990
these ethical dilemmas yourself,
you actually do.

1836
02:10:11,990 --> 02:10:14,910
You call an ethics board, You
get that is 1.

1837
02:10:14,990 --> 02:10:17,870
Yes, yeah, you get the team
together and you actually have

1838
02:10:17,870 --> 02:10:20,590
ethical discussions regarding.
What is the best plan for the

1839
02:10:20,590 --> 02:10:22,630
patient?
So it is a fundamental feature

1840
02:10:22,630 --> 02:10:24,790
of the healthcare system in
South Africa.

1841
02:10:25,110 --> 02:10:27,950
The unfortunate reality of our
South African healthcare system

1842
02:10:27,950 --> 02:10:32,230
is that it's overburdened under
resourced, corrupt government.

1843
02:10:32,230 --> 02:10:34,150
So there's just so many other
factors.

1844
02:10:34,470 --> 02:10:36,830
So we never really get the
chance to actively implement

1845
02:10:36,830 --> 02:10:40,350
these in the best way they
possibly could, but but for the

1846
02:10:40,350 --> 02:10:43,150
most part we do, yeah.
Yeah.

1847
02:10:43,510 --> 02:10:46,950
But yeah, that's Thomas, this
has been, this has been a very.

1848
02:10:47,520 --> 02:10:48,720
This has been a great
conversation.

1849
02:10:48,720 --> 02:10:51,400
We've gone through so many
different topics, sorry about

1850
02:10:51,400 --> 02:10:54,560
this I've.
Actually, like what this the

1851
02:10:54,560 --> 02:10:56,040
reason I think it's partly my
fault.

1852
02:10:56,040 --> 02:10:58,480
I mean I had a structure planned
and then I just let it go.

1853
02:10:59,720 --> 02:11:01,960
But it's been great.
I mean, I've enjoyed it so much.

1854
02:11:02,000 --> 02:11:03,800
Anything from you?
Any final words?

1855
02:11:03,800 --> 02:11:06,320
Anything you want to say?
No, no.

1856
02:11:06,920 --> 02:11:08,480
I thought this was a great
experience.

1857
02:11:08,480 --> 02:11:10,400
We've lost the red thread
completely.

1858
02:11:11,720 --> 02:11:16,520
I hope it is good to for some of
your readers, some of you, some

1859
02:11:16,520 --> 02:11:18,400
of your audience.
Definitely.

1860
02:11:18,400 --> 02:11:20,920
I can tell you one thing they
they will love the episode.

1861
02:11:20,920 --> 02:11:23,480
If there's one thing I've
realized, the mind body solution

1862
02:11:23,480 --> 02:11:26,440
listeners they come for, the
philosophy, for the applied

1863
02:11:26,440 --> 02:11:29,680
ethics, for everything we spoke
about pretty much within the

1864
02:11:29,680 --> 02:11:31,280
niche of the stop of this
podcast.

1865
02:11:31,280 --> 02:11:36,110
So and nothing swayed out of.
The podcast niche, so I'm happy

1866
02:11:36,110 --> 02:11:38,910
with this conversation.
Even though it's called Mind

1867
02:11:38,910 --> 02:11:41,550
Body Solution, it doesn't mean
we focus solely on the mind Body

1868
02:11:41,550 --> 02:11:44,310
problem.
It's an exploration of morality,

1869
02:11:44,310 --> 02:11:46,870
ethics, mental health, all of
it.

1870
02:11:46,870 --> 02:11:52,150
So it fits perfectly.
Maybe just point to one general

1871
02:11:52,150 --> 02:11:57,430
problem I see that will also
occur, for instance, in medical

1872
02:11:57,430 --> 02:12:01,030
practice.
I think in the consciousness

1873
02:12:01,030 --> 02:12:03,670
community.
Of course there is a lot of

1874
02:12:03,670 --> 02:12:07,390
discussion and they're competing
models, but we are getting

1875
02:12:07,390 --> 02:12:11,870
somewhere.
A lot has happened since 1994

1876
02:12:12,310 --> 02:12:15,350
and there is progress and of
course many people would

1877
02:12:15,350 --> 02:12:17,910
disagree.
But there is a general picture

1878
02:12:17,910 --> 02:12:23,510
appearing on the horizon, and
one thing I'm quite concerned

1879
02:12:24,030 --> 02:12:31,670
about is that 80% of humankind
on this planet still live firmly

1880
02:12:31,670 --> 02:12:35,950
in religious images of what a
human being is in a religious

1881
02:12:35,950 --> 02:12:41,190
worldview, and are also quite
immune to rational criticism.

1882
02:12:42,270 --> 02:12:47,110
And they will not like what
science and philosophy

1883
02:12:47,110 --> 02:12:52,590
eventually tell them about
computational structures,

1884
02:12:52,590 --> 02:12:55,550
consciousness, evolution, the
nature of the self.

1885
02:12:56,270 --> 02:13:00,510
They will not like it that I
think the general world public

1886
02:13:01,550 --> 02:13:05,590
is not ready.
And there are, I mean other

1887
02:13:05,590 --> 02:13:09,430
things coming to them.
The climate catastrophe, a I and

1888
02:13:09,430 --> 02:13:13,350
so forth.
And what I have called the

1889
02:13:13,350 --> 02:13:18,430
naturalist turn in the image of
humankind, you know, in the

1890
02:13:18,430 --> 02:13:23,580
image of man.
Large parts of the population

1891
02:13:23,580 --> 02:13:29,140
are not ready for this.
And this also includes you as a

1892
02:13:29,140 --> 02:13:35,500
philosophically informed Dr. may
work under an image of man that

1893
02:13:35,500 --> 02:13:37,900
many of your patients do not
share.

1894
02:13:38,940 --> 02:13:46,180
And a big problem is how one can
still firmly defend science or

1895
02:13:46,180 --> 02:13:51,700
rational evidence based approach
but keep respecting each other,

1896
02:13:53,260 --> 02:13:57,180
respecting each other's
vulnerabilities, belief systems

1897
02:13:57,820 --> 02:14:00,700
and solutions people have found
for themselves in their own

1898
02:14:00,700 --> 02:14:05,140
life.
That's a major task, to stand

1899
02:14:05,140 --> 02:14:11,340
the ground of science and
rational philosophy, but still

1900
02:14:12,110 --> 02:14:16,070
respecting, yeah, all those
others on the planet who are

1901
02:14:16,070 --> 02:14:19,430
completely somewhere else with
their belief systems.

1902
02:14:19,910 --> 02:14:22,670
Yeah.
And maybe we should also give

1903
02:14:22,670 --> 02:14:26,270
some thoughts to that.
I think that's a, that's a

1904
02:14:26,270 --> 02:14:28,470
beautiful thought to leave, to
leave the listers with.

1905
02:14:28,470 --> 02:14:30,790
I think that's something that
we're all thinking.

1906
02:14:30,790 --> 02:14:33,510
Everybody's trying to figure out
how to balance that fine line.

1907
02:14:33,870 --> 02:14:35,030
And I think you said it
perfectly.

1908
02:14:35,550 --> 02:14:36,950
Thank you, Thomas.
Thank you so much.

1909
02:14:37,070 --> 02:14:39,550
Thank you for the invitation.
It's been and it's been an

1910
02:14:39,550 --> 02:14:41,390
absolute pleasure.
I hope one day we can have a

1911
02:14:41,390 --> 02:14:43,630
round two.
Perhaps in our round two I will

1912
02:14:43,630 --> 02:14:46,390
set a nice structure.
OK, OK.

1913
02:14:46,470 --> 02:14:49,710
OK.
But I I enjoyed this immensely.

1914
02:14:49,710 --> 02:14:51,710
This was wonderful.
Thank you so much and I've been

1915
02:14:51,710 --> 02:14:53,710
looking forward to chatting to
you for such a long time.

1916
02:14:53,990 --> 02:14:56,550
Your work has deeply impacted my
own work.

1917
02:14:56,550 --> 02:14:59,750
And and I thank you for all your
contributions to the field.

1918
02:15:00,510 --> 02:15:02,350
Yeah.
And for being such a thank you

1919
02:15:02,350 --> 02:15:06,870
for being such a philosophically
informed, you know as medical

1920
02:15:06,870 --> 02:15:12,160
doctors we need, we can't have
more enough of people like you.

1921
02:15:12,680 --> 02:15:17,240
One detail you might want to
mention, I don't know it but

1922
02:15:18,120 --> 02:15:23,240
that book we have been talked
about talking about will go in

1923
02:15:23,240 --> 02:15:27,520
the brand new direct to open
program of the MIT press.

1924
02:15:27,960 --> 02:15:31,320
That means it is freely
available to every of your

1925
02:15:31,320 --> 02:15:35,200
listen everyone.
It could be end of October.

1926
02:15:35,200 --> 02:15:38,200
I don't know when they get the
act together, but you don't have

1927
02:15:38,200 --> 02:15:39,960
to pay for it.
You can just download.

1928
02:15:40,240 --> 02:15:42,040
It fantastic.
Once the book's out, I'll

1929
02:15:42,040 --> 02:15:44,240
definitely be putting a link to
it in the description.

1930
02:15:44,240 --> 02:15:46,440
So as soon as the book's out,
I'll have a link there ready for

1931
02:15:46,440 --> 02:15:46,840
you.
Okay.

1932
02:15:46,840 --> 02:15:48,400
Good.
Yeah, definitely.

1933
02:15:48,520 --> 02:15:50,960
Enjoy our evening then.
Thank you so much, man.

1934
02:15:51,560 --> 02:15:53,880
I really appreciate it, Thomas.
Thank you and have a great

1935
02:15:53,880 --> 02:15:55,640
evening.
Yeah, have a great weekend.

1936
02:15:55,680 --> 02:15:56,040
Bye, bye.