Tevin Naidu: What is Mind-Body Solution? A Quest to Conquer the Mind-Body Problem

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So it's a weird world we live
in.

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It's a strange universe.
I call ourselves a conscious

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conglomerate of cells assembled
by atoms, and you fractured by

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molecules, designed by DNA,
orged by fusion via Stella

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supernovae.
I mean, this is a crazy story.

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And every night you have to go
to a tribal council to sacrifice

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and legitimately think about who
you would kill, who you would

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you be willing to actively kill
Tribal council?

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It's like basically sitting in
heaven looking at all the people

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you killed and then telling
asking them for forgiveness and

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then to still give you
$1,000,000 or a million rent.

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It did spark a memory for me
though.

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I've only actually shared this
with two other people in my

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life, so this is opening up a
bit.

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If you think that there's
somebody else or something else

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controlling, it is very eye
opening.

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I remember feeling so free that
day when I left the temple.

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I remember just thinking this is
the most free I've ever felt

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among just pure ecstasy of
freedom.

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Any decision I make from here or
not is my own decision and I

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will bear the responsibility.
Whether it's praise or blame, I

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take it.
It's it's ultimately my fault.

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There's no one to blame for
this.

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There's no one to praise for
this except, and I think it's

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part of freeing and yet
terrifying possibly.

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But I can't call it 1/4 life
crisis or whatever, but it's a

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very young life crisis.
Doctor Tevin I Do is a medical

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doctor, philosopher and
ethicist.

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Born in South Africa of Indian
descent, he attained his

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Bachelor of Medicine and
Bachelor of Surgery degree from

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Stellenbosch University as
Master of Philosophy degree Coom

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Laud from the University of
Pretoria.

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His academic work focuses on
theories of consciousness,

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computational psychiatry,
phenomenological

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psychopathology, values based
practice, moral luck, addiction,

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and the philosophy and ethics of
science, mind and mental health.

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He has a television background
as the host of two popular South

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African shows.
As a castaway on Survivor South

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Africa, he's currently the host
of the Mind Body Solution

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podcast.
Tevin, thank you so much for

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coming on.
Thank you so much for having me.

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It's an absolute honor to be.
Thanks for that wonderful

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introduction.
I mean, you did it yourself, my

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friend.
Yeah, that's your background.

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They got it together quite well.
They make me sound better than I

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think I.
I did a I've done a lot of

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research.
I'm a big fan of your channel.

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Yeah.
I mean, I've loved it.

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I discovered it a little over a
month ago, I think.

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And I've.
I mean over half of your of your

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episodes I've listened to and I
can plan to just absorb the

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whole library soon.
I'd love to start off kind of

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early because one of the one of
the really core pieces of

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content was actually someone
else's interview of you, Doctor

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Tony Nader's interview with you,
which I loved.

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And one piece that really piqued
my interest was when you're

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talking about how early you
started questioning things.

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Asking the big questions,
metaphysics, etc.

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And you said it was around the
age of nine or so I believe you

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said.
And I love if you could just

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give us some context around that
and what that was like.

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Yeah.
No, I mean, it's such a strange

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world we live in.
I think it's.

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I mean, I was just discussing
this with my girlfriend and one

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of my friends today.
The universe is such an

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intriguing place.
There's so much going on.

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I mean, someone always comes to
mind is Charles Darwin.

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I think about the years he spent
on the Calapcos Islands, just

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traveling, inflicting views with
his own theory and his religious

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beliefs.
And how he spent so many years

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trying to convince himself, not
others but himself, that what he

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believed religiously just did
not correspond to the data.

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And for me, when I was a kid
growing up in South Africa, it's

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very, very multicultural.
It's very diverse.

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We've got 11 official languages.
There are so many different

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cultures and backgrounds and I
mean people often say Cape Town.

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When you're in Cape Town, you
feel like you're in the rest of

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the world.
There's just so many different

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people all coming together.
And me personally, part of my

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family, very much Muslim
traditional Indians, the other

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half Hindu traditional Indians.
And then you've I've also got

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Christian traditional Indians,
but still South African at

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heart.
So I consider myself more South

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African than I do India because
we've been here for around 7-8

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generations, that's what as
indentured laborers by grits and

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then at some point obviously of
post apartheid sort of all their

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way up and made their way into
society.

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But so the cultural dynamic is
very intriguing at that point

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because I have my Muslim best
friends and cousins on the one

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side.
I've got my Christians, best

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friends and cousins of the one
side of my Tamil Hindu everybody

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is all just integrating so well
and and none of the ideas

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corresponded.
And I found that very

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frustrating.
I I felt that when I went to

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school, when I when I read
books, when I went to science,

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for example, chance, it was
always some sort of a

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consistency with the story.
And if something did change,

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which it often does, science
consistently replaces the older

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science with new data sciences.
These stories were sort of set

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in stone and I didn't like that.
I didn't like the fact that

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whatever the person said was the
gospel of the truth.

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I felt that I mean channel's
called the truth.

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I felt like if I had to look for
radicality and truth, this is

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probably not where I'm going to
look because I had this bad

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tendency of asking questions and
I would often get kicked out of

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temple or I'd get kicked out of
the mosque.

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And so when that happens you
start to question.

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I mean is this really the story
you want to be told.

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Are you being told the story or
taught the story?

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What's the difference?
And and at that point I stopped.

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I became completely atheist.
I was nine.

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I remember wow wow I left the
temple.

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I remember being so frustrated.
At that point I actually became

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quite antitheist.
I became very much anti

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religion.
Remember being so irritated by

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this whole story fact that
people are so convinced by these

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ideas.
And as the time went by I became

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a lot more conservative with
that view.

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No longer anti religion, anti
antitheist.

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I I think everyone's entitled to
their own views.

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I respect them all and I think
that at the time it was more my

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own hatred towards the person
who spoke to down to me at the

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time that caused this, this
almost neo atheistic view.

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You know, the the sort of the
Richard Dawkins, Christopher

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Hitchens type of Sam Harris
annual dinner type of hatred,

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random.
And that slowly changed.

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I mean I have a huge respect.
Christian scholars, Delogians

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and gurus priests alike.
Of course.

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I mean it is to me, it's changed
over time.

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It's an interesting dynamic.
Yeah, it started when I was 9,

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which is very young cuz many of
my friends thought I was.

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Yeah.
That's so young to be

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questioning.
You must have been a curious,

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curious kid.
Do you remember?

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Was it a gradual thing?
Did was there a moment in time

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or something snapped?
Like I think it was always

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brewing.
I think my dad and always told

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me to watch Discovery Channel.
National Geographic.

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I mean, he forced me to sort of
watch this when I'm watching

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Cartoon Network change the
channel.

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That's good in hindsight.
I mean, at the time I obviously

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didn't like it.
But when I look back, I think, I

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mean those are the stepping
stones, sort of those curiosity

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builders that started asking the
deeper questions within.

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Because often, I mean, growing
up I wanted to be an

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astrophysicist and I've always
wanted to be an astrophysicist.

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I remember just getting 100% for
mathematics every year, all the

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time just thinking it's gonna
happen and then and then as you

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get older you make the more
conservative choice.

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And at the time for me it was to
look after my family my my peers

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and and I mean Indian cultures
are becoming a doctor's or

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assist sort of pretty much an
expectation and I think I sort

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of fell into the trap.
But no regrets.

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I enjoy it.
I love it very much.

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But I went for the conservative
choice but astrophysics in

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space, just trying to understand
the nature of this universe,

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this incredibly complex, complex
system.

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How does it all function?
What is the purpose of all of

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us?
What is the meaning behind all

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of us?
I think it intrigues a lot of

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people, and I think religion
does provide people with those.

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It provides us with those
answers.

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But for me, it wasn't enough.
I wanted to find out for myself,

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and that's what sort of stirred
me towards that way.

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My parents were never that
religious anywhere.

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They were very cultural.
We often celebrated Diwali or

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these the Hindus festivals.
We went to prayers.

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I still go to many of them.
But yeah, they never really

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ingrained the religious doctrine
within.

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So they they often allowed me to
do whatever I wanted when I when

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I was nine, I told them I'm
done.

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They were fine.
It's like, wow, that is just

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like.
My goodness.

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Yeah, that's so cool.
That would well, it did spark a

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memory for me though.
If I if I may, I know I'm

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interviewing you, but if I may
share something, I've only

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actually shared this with two
other people in my life.

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So this is opening up a bit.
It's not it's not like crazy

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big.
But I remember because you said

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around 9:00 and I was around
8:00 or nine years old, I

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remember I was definitely in the
third grade.

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So whenever that's around then,
and I remember the moment when.

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I was in my childhood bedroom, a
lit bedroom, and I was looking

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through the doorway into the
hallway that was dark and all of

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a sudden it was like something
changed.

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Like it's like the top down
control became apparent, if that

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makes any sense.
Like I was like I didn't know

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the word agency at the time, but
it was like, oh, I have control

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over this.
Like, it wasn't solely the ether

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of my childhood, let's say.
And it but it was like a moment.

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And like from that on, I
remember going to school the

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next day and being like, Oh my
goodness, like everything just

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clicked at like a critical time.
And I it sort of gives you that

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power, that sort of autonomy.
You've been looking.

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Yes, waiting for the autonomy.
I mean, everybody just craves

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it.
Everybody wants it but really

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gets it.
If you think that there's

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somebody else or something else
controlling it.

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It is very eye opening.
I remember feeling so free that

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day when I left the temple.
I remember just thinking this is

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the most free I've ever felt
among just pure ecstasy of

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freedom.
Any decision I make from here or

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not, is my own decision, and I
will bear the responsibility.

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Whether it's praise or blame, I
take it.

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It's it's ultimately my fault.
There's no one to blame for

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this.
There's no one to praise for

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this except, and I think it's
part of freeing and yet

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terrifying.
Possibly can't call it 1/4 life

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crisis or whatever, but it's a
very young life crisis.

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A 110th life.
A 120th life crisis.

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Hope you lived a long time, huh?
That's so interesting.

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So what then?
From there, the progression.

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You said astrophysics was a big
passion of yours.

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You go through high school, You,
obviously.

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I'm assuming you were a great
student, you know, Never caused

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any trouble in the classroom.
It's on top.

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And then I had archaeology as
one of the others.

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Interesting.
He's one of the others.

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I mean those and teaching.
Just general teaching.

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Most likely mathematics or
physics.

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Wow.
Very cool, Those three with my I

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mean archaeology.
I mean, I loved it so much.

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I speak very highly.
I mean, Darwin's one of my

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favorite scientists of all time.
And just going back, I mean

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Stephen Jay Gould.
When I think about the work they

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did back in the day, I mean it's
some of the best things I've

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seen.
Absolutely.

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00:11:39,820 --> 00:11:43,560
It's incredible cool.
So I was very much in the

229
00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:45,560
sciences, very, very science
oriented.

230
00:11:45,560 --> 00:11:48,280
And then as you get older, you
start becoming more

231
00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,200
philosophical, you're scientific
start to question those as well.

232
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,840
So at 9 year old, then she had
to change when you turned 19,

233
00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:00,880
now 29, I'm currently 29.
But over time, things have

234
00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:02,880
changed every sort of decade or
so.

235
00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:05,640
Sure.
And what made when did you

236
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:07,520
decide you wanted to become a
doctor?

237
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,360
So I was.
It was always one of the

238
00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:11,560
choices.
It was something I've always

239
00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:13,160
loved.
But the main reason a lot of

240
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:17,120
people find this completely
absurd and ridiculous is I was

241
00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,560
watching House and I love House.
Yeah, great show.

242
00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:21,000
I remember I watched it as a kid
too.

243
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,120
Yeah, sure.
Probably my favorite series of

244
00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,760
all time because we've watched
it so many times.

245
00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,360
There's eight seasons.
I've watched all of them back to

246
00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:31,440
front.
Wow.

247
00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:37,450
Possibly like around 8 times.
And I know there's a lot of holy

248
00:12:37,450 --> 00:12:38,890
shit.
It was before Med school days,

249
00:12:39,010 --> 00:12:39,930
so.
Yeah, yeah.

250
00:12:39,930 --> 00:12:42,370
You had a lot of time, a lot
more time back then, Yeah.

251
00:12:43,530 --> 00:12:46,570
I sort of made the excuse Med
school that this is me studying

252
00:12:46,570 --> 00:12:51,770
whenever somebody asks me.
As if always, whenever someone

253
00:12:51,770 --> 00:12:56,250
asks, it's always lupus.
It's always the 1st lupus, lupus

254
00:12:56,570 --> 00:12:59,730
or sacoidosis, the other one.
I forgot that.

255
00:12:59,730 --> 00:13:02,170
Yeah, OK, so I was watching
House.

256
00:13:02,170 --> 00:13:05,250
I remember my mom running down
the stairs when I was at home

257
00:13:05,370 --> 00:13:08,830
and he got in for mid school and
at the time I'm watching House,

258
00:13:08,830 --> 00:13:12,910
I look at the TV and I look at
it and I just think and I just

259
00:13:12,910 --> 00:13:16,990
say let's go, let's just do it.
It was one of those this perf

260
00:13:16,990 --> 00:13:18,830
the moment thoughts where I just
didn't even think about

261
00:13:18,830 --> 00:13:20,550
astrophysics.
I didn't think about anything

262
00:13:20,550 --> 00:13:21,870
else.
I just let's just do it.

263
00:13:22,510 --> 00:13:25,270
And when I got to mid school, I
realized it's nothing like

264
00:13:25,390 --> 00:13:29,910
House.
Very different, yes.

265
00:13:30,510 --> 00:13:33,390
And how would you describe your
experience in Med school?

266
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:40,720
Super difficult school was very
well I got to Med school and I

267
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,800
think this is where cultural
dynamics in South Africa play a

268
00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,320
big role because went from a
school way.

269
00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,680
School had majority 800 black
students.

270
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,000
In South Africa we refer to
mixed race people as colored and

271
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,240
this is not politically
incorrect within this country.

272
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,880
So we refer to mixed race people
as colored.

273
00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,640
So there were about 800 blacks,
200 coloreds, about 200 Indian

274
00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,550
people, no white people at all.
And then I went from that school

275
00:14:05,550 --> 00:14:08,590
to Stellamos University, which
is a majority Afrikaans White

276
00:14:08,950 --> 00:14:12,390
University.
And it was a complete cultural

277
00:14:12,390 --> 00:14:14,870
shocker, something I never
anticipated.

278
00:14:14,870 --> 00:14:17,870
I mean, I did Afrikaans as a
language in high school and

279
00:14:17,870 --> 00:14:20,710
primary school, but always sort
of learned it with a pitch of

280
00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:22,910
salt, like thinking I'd never
use this, It's not going to be

281
00:14:22,910 --> 00:14:25,710
something I'm going to be using.
And I get to Stellamos, where

282
00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:28,830
Cape Town, 75% of the population
speak Afrikaans.

283
00:14:28,830 --> 00:14:31,630
And I was completely shocked,
Couldn't believe it.

284
00:14:32,020 --> 00:14:34,340
And this is the first language.
So it was very surprising.

285
00:14:34,700 --> 00:14:38,700
Immediately felt homesick, just
come, went into sort of a

286
00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:40,340
depression.
I would say very dark.

287
00:14:41,140 --> 00:14:43,940
I would go to lectures, to fall
asleep and go home and self

288
00:14:43,940 --> 00:14:47,300
study because I just couldn't.
They were speaking Afrikaans.

289
00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:49,900
I couldn't understand what I was
saying, what they were saying.

290
00:14:49,900 --> 00:14:51,020
I couldn't understand the
lecture.

291
00:14:51,020 --> 00:14:52,580
So I just, it was very, very
difficult.

292
00:14:53,380 --> 00:14:55,220
But over time you get used to
it.

293
00:14:55,220 --> 00:14:57,180
It's not that bad.
You start to fall in love with

294
00:14:57,180 --> 00:14:59,260
it.
Slowly, trauma starts to become

295
00:14:59,260 --> 00:15:01,500
like a it's almost like a toxic
relationship.

296
00:15:02,590 --> 00:15:04,710
You hate it, but you love it.
You keep going back.

297
00:15:04,910 --> 00:15:08,110
So I kept going back.
He's got better and started.

298
00:15:08,110 --> 00:15:11,270
He fell in love with.
Cool, but it's difficult, I'm

299
00:15:11,270 --> 00:15:14,910
sure.
And then you, I mean you can

300
00:15:14,910 --> 00:15:18,910
imagine yourself being in a ward
round and guys just talking to

301
00:15:18,910 --> 00:15:21,390
you in a different language,
sort of talking down to you as

302
00:15:21,390 --> 00:15:24,230
well because he sort of assumes
I don't understand the language.

303
00:15:24,990 --> 00:15:28,630
And then you don't realize he's
asking you the question he's

304
00:15:28,670 --> 00:15:33,960
asking because he just, and this
is you in a ward round, academic

305
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,040
ward round for marks.
You're getting graded on this

306
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,760
and then you get poor mark
because you just don't really

307
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,240
know that.
It's very, very frustrating.

308
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,400
It would have built up a little
bit of anger within me.

309
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:49,920
I remember not wanting to learn
Afrikaans just despite, but I

310
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:51,920
learned it eventually anyway.
Yeah, you had to.

311
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,560
You had to had to pass.
I had to figure this word thing

312
00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:01,070
out, but I was Africa's so
politically complex.

313
00:16:01,070 --> 00:16:03,950
Can you imagine?
I mean, you live in official

314
00:16:03,950 --> 00:16:05,390
languages.
Afrikaans is one of them.

315
00:16:05,430 --> 00:16:08,110
English is one of them.
That means there's I and other

316
00:16:08,110 --> 00:16:12,390
official languages left.
I used to speak Zulu quite a lot

317
00:16:12,390 --> 00:16:15,910
back when I was a kid.
And then in Cape Town we have

318
00:16:15,910 --> 00:16:20,470
what's known as Isik Posa.
So there's so many different

319
00:16:20,470 --> 00:16:23,830
languages, difficult to learn
them all.

320
00:16:24,350 --> 00:16:25,150
Sure.
Yeah.

321
00:16:25,150 --> 00:16:29,110
You have to just cover what you
can and move forward from there.

322
00:16:29,740 --> 00:16:31,420
So take it.
Take it with some of them.

323
00:16:31,580 --> 00:16:35,100
Yeah, right.
Yeah, gesture and get by that

324
00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:37,180
way.
You get sort of the vernacular,

325
00:16:37,180 --> 00:16:39,940
you get the gist of it and you
can get through a conversation.

326
00:16:40,260 --> 00:16:44,500
Sure, sure.
So you're in that school and how

327
00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:48,500
did you get into this television
media space?

328
00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:50,980
Like what was what was that
path?

329
00:16:51,540 --> 00:16:53,180
People.
This is my first time actually

330
00:16:53,180 --> 00:16:55,660
just by the way, I was just
doing an interview where I'm

331
00:16:55,660 --> 00:16:58,060
integrating all these lives
together because I've either

332
00:16:58,060 --> 00:17:01,620
done specifically television
stuff and then I can make

333
00:17:01,740 --> 00:17:03,980
medical mind body solution
content.

334
00:17:04,300 --> 00:17:06,060
It's kind of intriguing to have
this discussion.

335
00:17:06,060 --> 00:17:09,900
It's my first time.
So me it was.

336
00:17:10,579 --> 00:17:13,700
I was in high school, I remember
I think I was about 6 foot one

337
00:17:13,700 --> 00:17:19,579
at a time height and I've met
this model agent to tell me I

338
00:17:19,579 --> 00:17:21,780
should try and just do some
modeling just earn some extra

339
00:17:21,780 --> 00:17:23,300
cash.
And obviously I didn't grow up

340
00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:26,260
in a very rich area.
I wasn't very wealthy.

341
00:17:26,260 --> 00:17:27,980
And I thought this is a great
way to be honey.

342
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:30,560
And it was.
It was.

343
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:34,080
Awesome.
Great, did it.

344
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,920
And then at some point I entered
this.

345
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:40,560
I entered Mr. India, South
Africa.

346
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,040
I was, I think about 17 at the
time.

347
00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:47,400
The agent said enter the
competition, do this, you might

348
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,040
win it, you do go on to bigger
things.

349
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,360
And I did.
And then I ended up winning it.

350
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,400
And I went on to then host a
television show in South Africa,

351
00:17:56,900 --> 00:17:59,140
and it's one of South Africa's
most popular Asian lifestyle

352
00:17:59,140 --> 00:18:01,100
television shows, so millions of
views every week.

353
00:18:01,740 --> 00:18:03,820
And I was fortunate enough.
It's called Easter Mosaic.

354
00:18:04,220 --> 00:18:07,420
They can't take me because they
saw me when they saw the

355
00:18:07,420 --> 00:18:11,180
competition, which is pretty
cool, and asked me to join team

356
00:18:11,180 --> 00:18:13,900
when I did.
And at that point, I think was

357
00:18:15,180 --> 00:18:18,860
17 when I won the competition,
18 so when I won and when I won

358
00:18:18,860 --> 00:18:22,580
it and then afterwards I went on
to TV show and I was in my first

359
00:18:22,580 --> 00:18:25,470
or second year of Med school.
So around then I've been living,

360
00:18:25,470 --> 00:18:26,830
I've started living this double
life.

361
00:18:26,830 --> 00:18:29,630
It was like entering two
different realms.

362
00:18:29,670 --> 00:18:33,590
And I mean you mentioned in your
emails, Joseph Campbell, the, I

363
00:18:34,670 --> 00:18:36,830
mean a hero's journey type of
thing, you know, that call to

364
00:18:36,830 --> 00:18:38,990
adventure.
And this was it cuz I already

365
00:18:38,990 --> 00:18:43,070
started this medical journey and
then I got approached by this

366
00:18:43,070 --> 00:18:44,750
other world that was completely
different.

367
00:18:46,350 --> 00:18:49,150
For a guy who's homesick, really
irritated with the way things

368
00:18:49,150 --> 00:18:52,190
are going and not really happy
with where he is, this was like

369
00:18:52,190 --> 00:18:55,870
a blessing.
This was completely, it was fun

370
00:18:56,110 --> 00:18:58,670
to travel.
I got to teach because I wanted

371
00:18:58,670 --> 00:18:59,670
to be a teacher this all the
time.

372
00:18:59,670 --> 00:19:02,470
So presenting to me became this
platform where I could teach

373
00:19:02,470 --> 00:19:05,270
people, speak to an audience.
And I think I really enjoyed

374
00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:08,510
that and I loved lecturing.
I loved giving talks.

375
00:19:08,790 --> 00:19:11,710
So it was it was pretty cool
because I got to then use a lot

376
00:19:11,710 --> 00:19:13,990
of these hobbies together to
sort of something that made

377
00:19:14,030 --> 00:19:17,990
money and help pay Med school
fees and help do a lot of things

378
00:19:18,670 --> 00:19:22,360
on my own lifestyle in general.
And and then at that point the

379
00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:24,680
show was doing very well.
We ended up getting another show

380
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:26,280
and it all just rippled from
there.

381
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,760
I mean it kept doing TV shows,
but then I was sort of living

382
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:33,080
this double life and it started
becoming a little difficult.

383
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,960
I mean, I'd go from a 36 hour
shift at the hospital and then

384
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,800
have to film an entire event the
next day, the television show.

385
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:45,920
And so I'd be exhausted.
I'd remember like dark and like

386
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:47,760
sunk and I'd look tired all the
time.

387
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,280
So it was like a chronic
fatigue, but I loved it.

388
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,560
It was too exciting to stop.
It was almost like being on

389
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:57,280
drugs.
I by this energy that you just

390
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:02,000
keep wanting get addicted to
that dope like and and then back

391
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,280
then I had a lot of social media
I was using.

392
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,120
I was actively engaging with the
community.

393
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,640
So that constant feedback
started really feeding the ego.

394
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,840
I would say and I mean I enjoyed
it at the time, but then at some

395
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:16,880
point I decided there's got to
be a limit.

396
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,320
I have to either continue with
one.

397
00:20:20,030 --> 00:20:24,590
Or continue with the other and I
chose you see the medical and

398
00:20:24,990 --> 00:20:28,590
the science background.
How'd you make that choice It

399
00:20:28,590 --> 00:20:31,110
was difficult.
I mean I've I I always would

400
00:20:31,110 --> 00:20:34,830
have It was it was never and it
was never me actually thinking

401
00:20:34,830 --> 00:20:39,390
of leaving that for but it was
more that you get tired of the.

402
00:20:39,390 --> 00:20:45,830
I don't want to sound you get
tired of it's it's almost like a

403
00:20:45,830 --> 00:20:48,130
fake world.
It's kind of like a curated

404
00:20:48,130 --> 00:20:50,890
world that you start getting
frustrated.

405
00:20:51,370 --> 00:20:53,770
Get tired of the fact that
everybody has this facade.

406
00:20:53,770 --> 00:20:56,210
They're not showing the true
colors.

407
00:20:56,210 --> 00:20:58,210
They're not being themselves.
Whereas in medicine people are

408
00:20:58,210 --> 00:21:01,690
being led.
Lack of better terms.

409
00:21:01,690 --> 00:21:06,450
I mean, assholes to you.
She was nailing you, just

410
00:21:06,450 --> 00:21:08,250
telling you how bad you are at
this thing.

411
00:21:08,690 --> 00:21:11,930
No filter.
Absolutely no concern whether he

412
00:21:11,930 --> 00:21:14,450
hurts me or not.
And and I found that a little

413
00:21:14,450 --> 00:21:16,810
bit better.
For some reason, I felt like I'd

414
00:21:16,810 --> 00:21:20,970
rather know exactly where I
stand with you versus going into

415
00:21:20,970 --> 00:21:24,090
this big event with everyone
just being faked the whole time.

416
00:21:24,650 --> 00:21:27,250
Pretending like they love you.
Pretending like they can

417
00:21:27,330 --> 00:21:30,090
constantly in this environment
you don't really know how to

418
00:21:30,090 --> 00:21:32,650
read people.
You for someone who loves

419
00:21:32,650 --> 00:21:35,410
psychology you philosophy.
I mean you want to know how

420
00:21:35,410 --> 00:21:38,410
people are thinking.
You want to know why they think

421
00:21:38,410 --> 00:21:40,010
a certain way.
I mean, in this act it's sort of

422
00:21:40,010 --> 00:21:44,050
like it's constantly acting and
I didn't really like it.

423
00:21:44,050 --> 00:21:47,280
And in the politically correct
started growing over time.

424
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,720
I had my own views on that and
it started becoming too much.

425
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,280
I felt that being online, not
being able to speak your mind,

426
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,640
not being able to talk and
openly and have a discourse,

427
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,120
which is the main reason why I
started Mind Body Solution was

428
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,160
having a platform to provide.
A lot of these people have

429
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,600
theories they're afraid to
actually share sometimes because

430
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,640
of the repercussions.
So I was always a fan of, of

431
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,920
having that freedom of speech,
trying to be able to say what

432
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,120
you want to say and say without
offending people with intent.

433
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:17,840
I mean, context is always
important.

434
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:23,560
Content is not relevant without
considering the context it's in.

435
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,600
If you if you just take content
for what it is, that's that just

436
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,560
doesn't work.
Someone can say something, you

437
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,240
mean a completely different
thing in a different contextual

438
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,680
situation.
So I found that very, very

439
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:41,020
frustrating about the television
slash online world where context

440
00:22:41,020 --> 00:22:45,980
is completely eliminated and
possibly eradicate scenario.

441
00:22:46,940 --> 00:22:49,260
And yeah, it became easier at
that point.

442
00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:51,820
Had it not become that way, I
think I might have stayed

443
00:22:51,820 --> 00:22:55,820
longer, but the more I watched
the way it started to go that

444
00:22:55,820 --> 00:22:58,620
route, I decided to take a step
back.

445
00:22:58,620 --> 00:23:00,660
I put my foot in my mouth too
much.

446
00:23:00,660 --> 00:23:03,100
So I think for me context is
very important.

447
00:23:03,580 --> 00:23:06,020
Sure.
And it's funny because this is.

448
00:23:06,670 --> 00:23:08,990
Part of the reason why these
long form discussions I think

449
00:23:08,990 --> 00:23:11,390
are so popular and has become
have become popular in the last

450
00:23:11,870 --> 00:23:16,670
10 years or so is that we get
the time to have the whole.

451
00:23:16,670 --> 00:23:22,070
The context is, you know, it's
built in there and on TV it's

452
00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:25,670
like give me your sound bite,
give me 30 seconds, make it

453
00:23:25,670 --> 00:23:29,590
quick cuz we got a mistake.
What's that I miss?

454
00:23:29,590 --> 00:23:32,230
It's like a 10 second clip of
making a mistake and just.

455
00:23:32,750 --> 00:23:35,840
Wait, A lot more to say there.
You stopped it.

456
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,120
Just mm.
HM not a fan of that.

457
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,480
These podcasts play amazing.
Yeah, I think so.

458
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,520
Yeah, I agree.
I think it is and I'm

459
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:46,800
personally, I'm just getting
into it.

460
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:52,000
This is sort of beginning of the
new chapter for my channel.

461
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,760
I wanna do some more long form
stuff like this and cuz I think

462
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,040
it's fascinating.
It's a.

463
00:23:58,360 --> 00:24:00,240
Great job.
I mean, thank you.

464
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,550
Geez, stop.
Glad I really get you very far.

465
00:24:04,070 --> 00:24:08,310
So I appreciate that.
I mean you are, but I mean I can

466
00:24:08,310 --> 00:24:10,710
tell one of the things that
comes through on your channel,

467
00:24:11,390 --> 00:24:14,070
which I will we'll get to in a
little bit because I bet think

468
00:24:14,070 --> 00:24:18,870
I'll be the main focus of
discussion is how polished you

469
00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:20,870
are.
I mean how clearly, how clearly

470
00:24:20,870 --> 00:24:24,070
you have your what, 5-6 years of
TV experience.

471
00:24:24,070 --> 00:24:27,310
I mean, yeah, but more important
than that I think like yeah,

472
00:24:27,470 --> 00:24:35,760
about I started in 2012 so and I
entering around 1819 and but I

473
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,080
did, but then I did obviously, I
mean as you know Survivor and

474
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,480
the other shows.
Oh yeah, very different reasons

475
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,680
and different circumstances
around that.

476
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:48,240
Well, since you brought it up,
let's talk some Survivor.

477
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,680
Survivor, one of my favorites.
If not House, it's gonna be

478
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,920
Survivor.
Yeah, if you have to choose,

479
00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:58,880
you're on a deserted island.
Which one do you go with?

480
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:04,000
So difficult.
I think I'll go with if I'm on a

481
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,680
deserted island.
I think I'll go with Survivor at

482
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,040
that point.
So I would say the same thing,

483
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,920
but then you're also, you're in
this vicious loop where you're

484
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:12,680
on an island watching a show
about an island.

485
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,280
You might want to escape from
that, actually, if I'm watching

486
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,920
a season where I'm on, because
then it's gonna feel very much

487
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,200
like Inception.
Absolutely.

488
00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:21,920
Were you on two seasons or one
season?

489
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,020
Two.
So we recently, just this year,

490
00:25:26,020 --> 00:25:28,940
I had our returnee, first South
African returnee season, so it

491
00:25:29,340 --> 00:25:32,300
was pretty much an All Star
season and that was very, very

492
00:25:32,340 --> 00:25:34,740
cool.
When I'm too soon again, yeah.

493
00:25:37,580 --> 00:25:40,580
That is so cool.
And what made you apply for

494
00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:41,860
Survivor?
Or did they reach out to you?

495
00:25:41,860 --> 00:25:43,460
Did they see you?
Like, how did that work?

496
00:25:44,620 --> 00:25:46,660
So, no, no, no.
So I love Survivor.

497
00:25:46,900 --> 00:25:50,180
I've been a fan since I was
probably around 9:00 as well.

498
00:25:50,460 --> 00:25:52,900
I mean, I think this one came
out in 2000 and.

499
00:25:54,370 --> 00:25:56,650
Oh yes, the original 1.
Richard Richard Hatch that

500
00:25:56,650 --> 00:25:59,330
season, Yes.
I think it was 2000 or 2001,

501
00:26:00,450 --> 00:26:03,610
which meant I was around 7,
actually seven or seven or

502
00:26:03,610 --> 00:26:06,570
eight.
I started watching from then and

503
00:26:06,570 --> 00:26:08,130
it's a family show.
My mom loves it.

504
00:26:08,130 --> 00:26:10,890
My sister loves it.
We've been watching it as a

505
00:26:10,890 --> 00:26:13,330
family since then and I often
save.

506
00:26:13,490 --> 00:26:16,810
I used to save seasons from in a
different city to watch it with

507
00:26:17,010 --> 00:26:19,610
me.
When I get back, I'm done and

508
00:26:19,610 --> 00:26:21,330
get back to the other city to
watch it with him.

509
00:26:21,810 --> 00:26:24,330
And I've been a fan for such a
long time.

510
00:26:24,890 --> 00:26:28,170
I love the psychosocial
behavioral dynamics of it all.

511
00:26:28,170 --> 00:26:32,290
For me, it's very much a
biopsychosocial game, medicine,

512
00:26:32,490 --> 00:26:34,210
focus on the biopsychosocial
model.

513
00:26:34,690 --> 00:26:37,450
It's extended itself to
biopsychosocial spiritual,

514
00:26:37,810 --> 00:26:41,210
biopsychosocial cultural.
But when you think of Survivor,

515
00:26:41,210 --> 00:26:44,370
it's not just a television show
to me.

516
00:26:44,370 --> 00:26:47,090
To me, it's more for pretty much
what Jeff Probst says.

517
00:26:47,090 --> 00:26:50,650
It's it's a social experiment,
except I think it's a lot more

518
00:26:50,650 --> 00:26:53,190
complex than I think.
I think there's a lot of

519
00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:56,230
dynamics behind the game that
they can dictate how people

520
00:26:56,230 --> 00:27:00,070
behave in real life and how
people perceive their themselves

521
00:27:00,070 --> 00:27:04,110
within the game dictates a lot
about what they don't know they

522
00:27:04,110 --> 00:27:07,830
do in real life.
Because people have this, this

523
00:27:07,870 --> 00:27:11,870
image of almost when you enter
this game, it's not reality.

524
00:27:12,190 --> 00:27:14,670
You're almost taken away from
reality because they build this

525
00:27:14,670 --> 00:27:18,630
box where you can behave a
certain way based on the rules

526
00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:21,870
that they've set out.
But this box just so happens to

527
00:27:21,870 --> 00:27:25,490
be within the real world that
you've always been a part of so

528
00:27:25,490 --> 00:27:27,610
you can never really escape
reality.

529
00:27:28,250 --> 00:27:30,850
So a lot of people who have this
perception that when you leave

530
00:27:31,410 --> 00:27:33,610
the real world and enter
Survivor you can be an asshole.

531
00:27:33,610 --> 00:27:35,930
You can be a you can be this
people you know.

532
00:27:35,930 --> 00:27:37,490
I think no no I don't think
that's true.

533
00:27:37,490 --> 00:27:40,290
I think the way you behave yes.
If you want to play a character

534
00:27:40,970 --> 00:27:42,890
entertainment purposes, fair
enough.

535
00:27:42,890 --> 00:27:44,610
I'm all about that.
I did that my first season.

536
00:27:45,130 --> 00:27:49,450
Very mischievous.
Very much the the naughty guy

537
00:27:49,450 --> 00:27:51,280
trying to put people against
each other.

538
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,440
The second time I played I was a
lot more mature.

539
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,080
I was a bit, I was four years
older and but then I didn't.

540
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,040
I wanted to play more like the
doctor that I am and he comes

541
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,440
across on the show.
You see myself in person, very

542
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,200
naughty.
She was lying, making up stories

543
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,760
and now and I went through with
this intention.

544
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,160
I told him that listen, I come
from a television background.

545
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,880
I'm here because I love the show
and I want to make the show

546
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,920
better.
Main goal here is not just about

547
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,160
me, it's about let's make South
African Survivor as as cool as

548
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,520
it can be.
But at this point, Survivor had

549
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,400
just finished season 5 and
season six got taken over by a

550
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,000
new production company called
Afro Khans.

551
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,640
And this production company is
filled with massive fans, just

552
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,080
huge, like big Survivor fans.
One of the producers, he's like

553
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,640
one of the he's got a tattoo of
the Survivor staff on his arm.

554
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,120
His name is LB, one of the
biggest fans out there.

555
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,760
So I got it onto the show at the
right time because this group of

556
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,500
people decided to make it just
like the US version and it

557
00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:50,420
became one of the best seasons
internationally.

558
00:28:50,420 --> 00:28:53,660
I mean, at some point people did
an open international ranking

559
00:28:53,660 --> 00:28:56,700
and it comes out second season
six of South Africa.

560
00:28:56,700 --> 00:28:59,260
So it's Philippine.
I think one of the US seasons

561
00:28:59,260 --> 00:29:02,380
was first and second was
Survivor South Africa,

562
00:29:02,380 --> 00:29:04,940
Philippines and then thereafter
is an Australian season.

563
00:29:05,660 --> 00:29:07,700
I can't remember which US season
it was.

564
00:29:08,260 --> 00:29:09,940
Yeah.
At the time it was because of

565
00:29:09,940 --> 00:29:13,830
how good the production crew
managed to edit the show and

566
00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:17,710
make it so realistic.
It stayed true to everyone's

567
00:29:17,710 --> 00:29:20,190
characters.
It gave enough content of

568
00:29:20,190 --> 00:29:24,230
context, which is also quite
cool, not just those snippets,

569
00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:26,310
to create characters.
We sort of had the freedom to

570
00:29:26,310 --> 00:29:30,630
make our own characters and
nobody comes there to act.

571
00:29:30,710 --> 00:29:33,310
Nobody's there.
It's not scripted, it's not an

572
00:29:33,310 --> 00:29:35,470
act, it's not a play we do.
Everything's legit.

573
00:29:35,470 --> 00:29:39,550
So the big thing is, is though,
if you want to play a character

574
00:29:39,550 --> 00:29:44,140
as a fan, we'll do it.
So if I loved Richard Hatch, for

575
00:29:44,140 --> 00:29:47,860
example, I'm more likely to then
play a little bit villainous and

576
00:29:47,860 --> 00:29:50,700
be a little bit more someone
else.

577
00:29:52,060 --> 00:29:53,740
It's quite a fascinating
scenario.

578
00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:56,140
Absolutely.
What was it?

579
00:29:56,220 --> 00:29:59,100
I mean, what was the most
surprising thing about it?

580
00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:03,620
What didn't you expect or what
was when you actually got there?

581
00:30:04,420 --> 00:30:08,380
Day one, everyone must just be
You're like on the moon or it's

582
00:30:08,380 --> 00:30:11,920
just a panoply of emotions, but.
What was different about the

583
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,480
experience?
What surprised you?

584
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,120
I guess.
I mean just for some context, I

585
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,040
mean I don't think I answered
your question when I saw that

586
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,600
Survivor South Africa season
six, cuz this has been years and

587
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,040
us since season five.
We haven't heard about it for a

588
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:25,280
while.
So then they announced that

589
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,120
season six is happening and the
day before the auditions were

590
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,080
finished, one of my best friends
at the time, she sent me a

591
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,880
message to say that survivor's
happening again.

592
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,880
I know how much you love it.
Don't you want to enter?

593
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,920
I just finished a 26 hour shift
at the hospital and I sent a

594
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,560
video of myself and scrubs.
I think I quickly got home, made

595
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,800
a quick recording on my cell
phone, just saying, listen, I

596
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,040
love this game.
I'm going to be a villain.

597
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,360
Just point blank.
I'm going to be a villain.

598
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,440
Tell the background I'm going to
entertain and just light sheet

599
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:56,840
steal.
Do whatever it takes to make

600
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,800
sure the audience and tribemates
are eating out of the palm of my

601
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,000
hands.
I had this whole thing prepped,

602
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,950
entered through.
It worked.

603
00:31:05,190 --> 00:31:08,870
They called me back and they
said they knew that I was from

604
00:31:09,070 --> 00:31:11,550
television, obviously.
But they actually asked me, am I

605
00:31:11,550 --> 00:31:13,870
going to come as the television
presenter or am I going to come

606
00:31:14,630 --> 00:31:17,470
as Dr. Naidu?
And I said I'm coming as Dr.

607
00:31:17,470 --> 00:31:19,150
Naidu.
So let's forget about the fact

608
00:31:19,150 --> 00:31:20,510
that I've ever done anything on
television.

609
00:31:20,510 --> 00:31:24,070
I'm coming as someone who has a
background in psychology,

610
00:31:24,070 --> 00:31:28,310
neuroscience, Edison, and I'm
gonna play mind games.

611
00:31:28,430 --> 00:31:30,750
This was my character.
I was already curated in this

612
00:31:30,750 --> 00:31:33,460
character and so you get to
Philippines.

613
00:31:33,460 --> 00:31:36,620
Fast forward a couple months
later and if to isolate in a

614
00:31:36,620 --> 00:31:40,180
room for about 10 days, it's so
crazy.

615
00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:43,300
So you start losing it of
yourself during that period.

616
00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:45,580
Why do you isolate?
What do you mean like before the

617
00:31:45,580 --> 00:31:48,180
game starts or?
Yeah yeah and this is pre

618
00:31:48,180 --> 00:31:51,340
covered as well.
So it's a good way to get

619
00:31:51,340 --> 00:31:54,140
everyone onto the into the same
country without seeing each

620
00:31:54,140 --> 00:31:56,220
other.
So you get one contention at a

621
00:31:56,220 --> 00:31:58,980
time, as you might cuz
especially in a place like South

622
00:31:58,980 --> 00:32:01,400
Africa, Let's say you're in
Durban or Cape Town, you might

623
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,200
know the person who comes across
at the airport.

624
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,520
So if you rather avoid that
scenario, let's let them go

625
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:11,320
through one and not allow them
to actually leave the hotel

626
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,080
room.
So you have to stay inside,

627
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:14,720
yeah?
Yeah, yeah, it's horrible.

628
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,600
It's probably one of the worst
reasons.

629
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,360
Have you ever watched Minefield
with his name?

630
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,640
The YouTuber?
He's got this show called

631
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,170
Vsource Michael.
Yes, it's been a while, but

632
00:32:29,170 --> 00:32:32,130
yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
But he's got this YouTube show

633
00:32:32,130 --> 00:32:35,410
called Minefield where he sits
in a room for about in a black

634
00:32:35,410 --> 00:32:37,490
room with nothing to do for
about 10 days as I can't

635
00:32:37,490 --> 00:32:40,090
remember exactly what.
So but that's what it felt like.

636
00:32:40,490 --> 00:32:43,930
You're stuck in this room.
No clocks, no watches, no cell

637
00:32:43,930 --> 00:32:47,850
phones, nothing.
So in my room specifically had

638
00:32:47,850 --> 00:32:50,490
no window as well, cuz it was
covered by some sort of a dark

639
00:32:50,490 --> 00:32:53,850
alley that had a roof over it.
So I couldn't tell whether it

640
00:32:53,850 --> 00:32:58,130
was night or day.
I had no inkling of what time it

641
00:32:58,130 --> 00:33:00,370
was ever.
The only thing that kept me sort

642
00:33:00,370 --> 00:33:05,850
of on track was each time a meal
came to and and it messed me up.

643
00:33:05,970 --> 00:33:08,370
I remember getting off because I
had had all these notes for all

644
00:33:08,370 --> 00:33:10,370
the cool things I was going to
do on the island, and day one I

645
00:33:10,370 --> 00:33:12,810
got, I completely forgot about
it all.

646
00:33:13,250 --> 00:33:17,650
So I went there, just I hadn't
slept for like 3 days before

647
00:33:17,650 --> 00:33:21,570
that before coming onto the
game, and I think it was seven

648
00:33:21,570 --> 00:33:23,970
days.
I spent seven days in the hotel,

649
00:33:23,970 --> 00:33:27,350
not ten, but seven days of just
not knowing what time it is, not

650
00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:28,590
knowing what's going on.
It's quite rough.

651
00:33:29,070 --> 00:33:30,350
Weird.
Yeah.

652
00:33:30,350 --> 00:33:33,550
Weird setup for Yeah, it gets to
you.

653
00:33:33,590 --> 00:33:35,430
And I think.
And the second time cuz of COVID

654
00:33:35,430 --> 00:33:36,750
it was another, it was just the
same.

655
00:33:36,750 --> 00:33:39,270
You had to stay in the hotel
room at least it was light,

656
00:33:39,270 --> 00:33:40,710
there was sunlight in this hotel
room.

657
00:33:41,390 --> 00:33:44,670
So much better experience.
But still it gets to you cuz you

658
00:33:44,670 --> 00:33:46,510
then play the game within your
head.

659
00:33:46,510 --> 00:33:50,550
Too much and it could be your
own worst enemy.

660
00:33:50,550 --> 00:33:52,870
Especially in a game like
survival where you're completely

661
00:33:52,870 --> 00:33:55,770
paranoid all the time.
Yeah, trust anyone.

662
00:33:55,770 --> 00:33:58,290
You really don't know what to
expect.

663
00:33:58,650 --> 00:34:01,370
You get out there and you
realize that they're all doing

664
00:34:01,370 --> 00:34:05,410
the same thing you're trying to
do, which is lie cheap, and you

665
00:34:05,410 --> 00:34:06,730
realize you're not that good at
it.

666
00:34:06,770 --> 00:34:08,570
You think you?
Are you think you are?

667
00:34:08,570 --> 00:34:11,570
Yeah, right.
But you're not that good at it,

668
00:34:11,570 --> 00:34:14,090
cuz you're a good guy.
You're not doing that in the

669
00:34:14,090 --> 00:34:15,969
real.
You're not getting practice in

670
00:34:15,969 --> 00:34:18,770
your real life.
I'm going there trying to put on

671
00:34:18,770 --> 00:34:21,370
a show, and that's for the
second time.

672
00:34:21,370 --> 00:34:24,600
I tried to be a bit more like
myself, which then became a bad

673
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,560
thing anyway, because then I got
this guy who's in charge of the

674
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,520
drug will look up to me.
People are constantly asking

675
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,560
advice who wanna know what to do
and then you get labeled with a

676
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,679
different label, which is he's
winning material, he's someone

677
00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:39,120
who's gonna possibly win.
Right.

678
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,800
It's a crazy.
It's a wonderful.

679
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,480
I agree.
It's a wonderful game.

680
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,000
I think I mentioned to you in
our correspondence before that.

681
00:34:51,469 --> 00:34:54,429
It's funny cuz I might not be
here, we might not be having

682
00:34:54,429 --> 00:34:58,070
this conversation unless I
applied for Survivor like five

683
00:34:58,070 --> 00:35:00,910
years ago and I got, I got to
the final stages.

684
00:35:00,910 --> 00:35:02,430
I did the whole thing.
You know, you're in the hotel

685
00:35:02,430 --> 00:35:03,350
room.
You can't talk to the other

686
00:35:03,350 --> 00:35:06,590
contestants there, but, you
know, everyone else is around.

687
00:35:06,590 --> 00:35:07,990
You know, you know who the
people are.

688
00:35:07,990 --> 00:35:12,750
And I mean, it's a wild and it's
for a week, you know, it's yeah,

689
00:35:12,750 --> 00:35:14,150
it's kind of messing with your
head.

690
00:35:14,550 --> 00:35:16,030
And I did a bunch of crazy
stuff.

691
00:35:16,030 --> 00:35:18,990
I would show up.
To breakfast and a robe and a

692
00:35:19,070 --> 00:35:21,310
crazy outfit and stuff like
that.

693
00:35:21,310 --> 00:35:24,950
And just like trying to create
attention for my, you know, try

694
00:35:24,950 --> 00:35:28,470
to create like some intrigue
around me.

695
00:35:29,070 --> 00:35:33,070
And I get to the interviews with
like the casting person and Jeff

696
00:35:33,070 --> 00:35:36,030
Probst, you know, that which is
like, whoa, holy shit, it's

697
00:35:36,030 --> 00:35:38,590
Jeff.
And they'd be like, hey,

698
00:35:38,670 --> 00:35:41,430
everyone's talking about you,
you know, you're causing a stir

699
00:35:41,430 --> 00:35:42,470
like.
And I was like, yeah.

700
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,040
I was like that's what I will do
on the show.

701
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,400
Put me on and I will do, I will
do stuff that would be

702
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,040
interesting.
But yeah, it didn't.

703
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,280
And I had, Oh my God, I was so
into it.

704
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,800
I like had.
I have an 80 page Google doc of

705
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,040
like survivor strategies.
You know, all this stuff to do.

706
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,080
I completely agree.
I did the same thing.

707
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,720
I had this huge with a whole
bunch of notes ready.

708
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:11,960
I also put on like cuz I was
thinking I went into it and.

709
00:36:13,750 --> 00:36:17,550
At the end of the whole process,
I thought to myself, that's the

710
00:36:17,550 --> 00:36:20,110
best I could possibly do.
I was like that I have no, I

711
00:36:20,110 --> 00:36:22,630
left it all in the field.
You know, I think that's all I

712
00:36:22,630 --> 00:36:25,110
got.
And I thought I did as good as I

713
00:36:25,110 --> 00:36:28,110
could.
And so I was like the turn

714
00:36:28,110 --> 00:36:30,110
around between when they tell
you you're going to go on and

715
00:36:30,110 --> 00:36:32,910
when you go is a month.
I don't know, it's quick.

716
00:36:33,190 --> 00:36:35,910
So I my thought process was
like, OK, you're going to lose a

717
00:36:35,910 --> 00:36:39,670
lot of weight when you're on the
island, but you don't want it.

718
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:42,320
You don't want to like.
Eat a ton.

719
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,160
You don't want to put on like
£10 right before you go because

720
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,800
your body is used to that.
So when you're fasting it's

721
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,960
going to be way worse.
So I thought what I'll do is

722
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,680
I'll put on like 20 pounds a few
months before, get my body

723
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,040
accustomed to that weight, and
then fast as I approach the

724
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,840
date.
But I didn't get it.

725
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,280
So I just put on a bunch of
weight.

726
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,160
That's that's almost exactly
what happened to me.

727
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,150
Because when I and at first I
remember for the second time, I

728
00:37:10,150 --> 00:37:15,350
got so ripped, I exercised and
trained every then got COVID,

729
00:37:15,830 --> 00:37:18,270
then I got the flu, then I got
COVID again.

730
00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:23,230
So I ended up eating and just
laying in bed for the next two

731
00:37:23,230 --> 00:37:24,710
months before I got into
Survivor.

732
00:37:24,710 --> 00:37:28,230
And all I remember seeing on TV
was me just with this huge

733
00:37:28,230 --> 00:37:33,670
tummy, just all unfit and and I
thought like I was hoping I'd be

734
00:37:33,670 --> 00:37:37,230
a bit more fit for this tribe.
But luckily I was still

735
00:37:37,230 --> 00:37:38,780
manageable.
Whatever.

736
00:37:38,780 --> 00:37:43,380
I mean, you can always frame it.
What's funny is if you are the

737
00:37:43,380 --> 00:37:46,540
ripped guy, then you have like a
target, sort of, you know,

738
00:37:46,540 --> 00:37:48,500
survivor, challenge, threat or
whatever.

739
00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:51,500
So you can always kind of work
it in a way.

740
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:54,100
That's exactly what I did.
I used it to my advantage.

741
00:37:54,100 --> 00:37:57,420
I was like, there are more
ripped guys, actually, let's go.

742
00:37:59,500 --> 00:38:00,740
And it's so interesting too,
like the.

743
00:38:03,030 --> 00:38:06,230
I, I, I love it for like the
game, the game theory behind it.

744
00:38:06,230 --> 00:38:09,110
You know all this kind of stuff.
But what it always what it ends

745
00:38:09,110 --> 00:38:13,670
up coming down to it's you know
the emotional you know you're at

746
00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:17,150
the you're at the mercy of the
jury at the end and their

747
00:38:17,150 --> 00:38:19,630
decisions are in my opinion from
what I've seen.

748
00:38:19,630 --> 00:38:23,070
It's like 95% emotional.
You know, do they like you or

749
00:38:23,070 --> 00:38:26,190
not?
You know is what it always comes

750
00:38:26,190 --> 00:38:28,150
down to.
So difficult to remove your

751
00:38:28,150 --> 00:38:31,070
emotions from the game.
In fact, that plays the biggest

752
00:38:31,070 --> 00:38:31,630
role.
You're correct.

753
00:38:31,630 --> 00:38:34,390
You're 100% right.
Because I remember when I got

754
00:38:34,390 --> 00:38:37,430
voted out, when I got home, I
thought to myself, the person,

755
00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:39,710
like one of the people who voted
me out, I thought I'd never vote

756
00:38:39,710 --> 00:38:42,670
for that person to me, even
though I knew that person was

757
00:38:42,670 --> 00:38:44,270
playing the best game.
Wow.

758
00:38:45,310 --> 00:38:47,710
And when I thought about it, I
was that person.

759
00:38:47,750 --> 00:38:50,630
I was that guy who always said
I'd never do that.

760
00:38:50,750 --> 00:38:55,180
I would never allow an emotional
judgment to just hurt the

761
00:38:55,420 --> 00:38:57,740
rational thinking behind my my
mind.

762
00:38:57,740 --> 00:39:00,900
And and it happened.
That's how strong the game gets

763
00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:03,580
you.
You're broken down, literally

764
00:39:03,580 --> 00:39:08,620
just dirty, hungry, tired,
burnt, scarred, bruised,

765
00:39:08,620 --> 00:39:12,860
bleeding, starving like there's
no food.

766
00:39:12,860 --> 00:39:14,180
You're losing weight at a rapid
pace.

767
00:39:14,180 --> 00:39:18,420
The first time I lost 8
kilograms in 18 days, and that's

768
00:39:18,420 --> 00:39:23,980
too much weight to do so fast.
It's not healthy, absurd, but I

769
00:39:23,980 --> 00:39:27,020
still remember thinking when I
often one of the things I said

770
00:39:27,020 --> 00:39:29,620
when I interviewed for when I
tried to audition for the for

771
00:39:29,820 --> 00:39:33,460
the game was think of Survivor
as real life and actually think

772
00:39:33,460 --> 00:39:36,740
about it philosophically.
You are placed in the scenario

773
00:39:36,740 --> 00:39:40,580
where you're forced to lie,
sheet, steel, whatever, make an

774
00:39:40,580 --> 00:39:44,260
environment, create a social
structure, try and create

775
00:39:44,260 --> 00:39:48,380
society, and thereafter think of
it as a tribe, because we are a

776
00:39:48,380 --> 00:39:51,130
tribe and every night you have
to go to a tribal council to

777
00:39:51,130 --> 00:39:55,090
sacrifice because.
So think of it that way and

778
00:39:55,090 --> 00:39:58,730
legitimately think about who you
would kill, who you would you be

779
00:39:58,730 --> 00:40:03,410
willing to actively kill Tribal
council that really give that

780
00:40:03,410 --> 00:40:07,090
some thought because that's
primarily what's happening every

781
00:40:07,090 --> 00:40:08,490
night.
We're actively going to kill

782
00:40:08,490 --> 00:40:09,290
someone.
So you have to.

783
00:40:09,490 --> 00:40:12,130
So I even approached a lot of
the people that next, the second

784
00:40:12,130 --> 00:40:14,890
time I played with this
argument, I was like, if you are

785
00:40:14,890 --> 00:40:17,730
willing to kill me versus this
person, really.

786
00:40:18,190 --> 00:40:21,430
That's what you're doing at this
point, really.

787
00:40:21,430 --> 00:40:24,030
Give it some thought philosophy.
You take the game for its core

788
00:40:24,030 --> 00:40:25,670
meaning.
Cuz I know when I think it's

789
00:40:25,670 --> 00:40:29,950
Mark Burnett who took over from
Charlie Parsons authorizes.

790
00:40:30,630 --> 00:40:35,270
Charlie Parsons was a Brit.
I think he's Brit and he started

791
00:40:35,270 --> 00:40:36,670
off with a show.
I think it was in Sweden or

792
00:40:36,670 --> 00:40:39,270
Switzerland where he got this
bunch of guys together and he

793
00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:41,070
put them on this island.
And he sort of realized that

794
00:40:41,070 --> 00:40:42,830
this has potential to be
something intriguing.

795
00:40:43,270 --> 00:40:47,020
Because fundamentally that's the
core of the game is, is this is

796
00:40:47,020 --> 00:40:50,340
this whole psychosocial element
where you have to get people to

797
00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:53,700
forgive you at the end, putting
them on the other side.

798
00:40:54,140 --> 00:40:57,500
And that's so difficult.
Unless you're a really, really

799
00:40:57,500 --> 00:40:59,740
nice person, you're never going
to forget.

800
00:40:59,740 --> 00:41:01,500
For the others, it's going to be
age.

801
00:41:03,340 --> 00:41:06,860
Wow, you've I haven't heard
these kinds of framings before.

802
00:41:06,860 --> 00:41:09,660
Around.
Or maybe it's been a while, but

803
00:41:09,660 --> 00:41:13,900
around your sacrifice, a human
sacrifice, And then at the end

804
00:41:13,900 --> 00:41:16,170
you're.
Asking for forgiveness from the

805
00:41:16,170 --> 00:41:19,090
tribe.
It's like basically sitting in

806
00:41:19,090 --> 00:41:23,210
heaven looking at all the people
you killed and then telling

807
00:41:23,290 --> 00:41:26,370
asking them for forgiveness and
then to still give you

808
00:41:26,410 --> 00:41:30,890
$1,000,000 or a million rent.
Sure, pretty.

809
00:41:30,890 --> 00:41:36,810
It's amazing, crazy stuff.
I mean, I what's I was crazy

810
00:41:36,810 --> 00:41:38,530
talking about this.
I just seem like the psycho

811
00:41:38,530 --> 00:41:41,570
philosopher.
That's cool.

812
00:41:41,930 --> 00:41:43,970
Way too hard.
And it was too much for someone.

813
00:41:44,940 --> 00:41:48,940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's so interesting dance

814
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:51,620
overthinking it.
Yeah, it can happen.

815
00:41:51,620 --> 00:41:53,540
Yeah, pretty easily.
I feel like we've been talking

816
00:41:53,540 --> 00:41:57,100
about Survivor for a long time.
But let's.

817
00:41:58,020 --> 00:42:00,060
I mean, there's a lot that we
could talk about there, but I'm

818
00:42:00,060 --> 00:42:01,860
sure that we have lots of, like,
little stories and stuff like

819
00:42:01,860 --> 00:42:05,260
that.
But we'll let you get about

820
00:42:05,380 --> 00:42:06,700
another time.
Yeah, yeah.

821
00:42:06,700 --> 00:42:08,460
No, no, I'd be very interested
for sure.

822
00:42:10,020 --> 00:42:12,700
So Survivor happens.
You're coming out of that.

823
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,600
You decide and I think you may
mention even on an interview

824
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,960
that it's like turned down a
position to do survive or even

825
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,920
you have to like yeah, I mean it
was that is my second time on.

826
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,920
I got accepted to do a
specialist program or

827
00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:33,800
microbiology at the time.
Cuz this was a cover that is

828
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:35,520
right.
It was super ripe.

829
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:38,320
Everybody was talking about
microorganisms.

830
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,640
I was like, this is fascinating,
let me read more about it.

831
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,160
I was doing lectures.
I was in the military at the

832
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,320
time, working for the military,
and I remember just going out,

833
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,720
giving public lectures on
orology, microbiology, just

834
00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:54,360
discussing how organisms work.
However, it's nothing more than

835
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,160
just a virus, just like every
other virus.

836
00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:01,160
In fact, I just read a Lancet
paper just today that shows that

837
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:05,320
September 2022, which is now,
well we're in October, but last

838
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,940
month the most common variable
respiratory viruses in South

839
00:43:09,940 --> 00:43:13,980
Africa have been rhinovirus,
adenovirus and influenza virus

840
00:43:13,980 --> 00:43:16,140
was third.
The covid's not even in the top

841
00:43:16,140 --> 00:43:19,140
ten at the moment.
I was trying to give this

842
00:43:19,140 --> 00:43:21,540
lecture to put some context into
the situation because a lot of

843
00:43:21,540 --> 00:43:24,620
people get very, very hyped when
they hear something new.

844
00:43:25,140 --> 00:43:28,300
Novelty really creates chaos and
that's exactly what happened

845
00:43:28,300 --> 00:43:32,500
with COVID.
You really lost the idea that

846
00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:33,980
there are other viruses out
there.

847
00:43:34,020 --> 00:43:37,510
All high blood pressure and
diabetes still exists.

848
00:43:37,990 --> 00:43:40,110
You can't sit at home and hide
from the world and then eat a

849
00:43:40,110 --> 00:43:41,750
bunch of cakes for the rest of
your life.

850
00:43:43,430 --> 00:43:44,790
There are other killers out
there.

851
00:43:45,030 --> 00:43:47,870
So lectures were focused on
that.

852
00:43:47,910 --> 00:43:50,230
And then I wanted to do
microbiology, but then got this

853
00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:53,310
second opportunity and I'll take
survival.

854
00:43:53,950 --> 00:43:57,910
Sure, yeah.
When you're that big a fan, it's

855
00:43:57,910 --> 00:44:00,990
an easy choice.
A lot of doctors literally spies

856
00:44:00,990 --> 00:44:03,270
me.
So not OK.

857
00:44:03,870 --> 00:44:05,710
Yeah.
Who cares about that?

858
00:44:08,710 --> 00:44:09,390
But I.
Came back.

859
00:44:10,230 --> 00:44:12,750
Yeah, right, right.
Survivor's only got, I mean, but

860
00:44:12,750 --> 00:44:14,550
if they came back to you now,
would you do it again?

861
00:44:15,390 --> 00:44:17,790
Yeah, you.
Just always did.

862
00:44:19,350 --> 00:44:22,390
That time's the charm.
I think that time, that time's

863
00:44:22,390 --> 00:44:26,390
the one.
I have to just play my card a

864
00:44:26,830 --> 00:44:28,070
bit wiser.
I need some wisdom.

865
00:44:28,990 --> 00:44:31,000
Wisdom helps.
Always used to.

866
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,520
And then at that point I came
back and well, it was after my

867
00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:37,000
first time on Survivor where I
started to think about maybe

868
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,520
starting a podcast.
And I think that's where the

869
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,520
journey started to take.
Okay.

870
00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:44,960
How'd that start?
Yeah, I mean, I was in Otsun,

871
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,760
which is a small town outside of
Cape Town.

872
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,280
So it's about 5 hours away from
Cape Town in South Africa.

873
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,860
And I was doing my master's
degree at the time, and I

874
00:44:54,860 --> 00:44:56,820
started doing it in the
philosophy and ethics of mental

875
00:44:56,820 --> 00:44:58,500
health.
And this, this took me into a

876
00:44:58,500 --> 00:45:03,020
hugely different domain.
As a Doctor Who's focused

877
00:45:03,020 --> 00:45:06,340
primarily on physical sciences,
biology, chemistry.

878
00:45:07,380 --> 00:45:09,540
When you do a philosophical
degree and you write

879
00:45:09,540 --> 00:45:12,420
dissertations and you try and
actively argue certain points,

880
00:45:12,420 --> 00:45:15,060
you start to really realize how
flawed a lot of your thinking

881
00:45:15,060 --> 00:45:18,420
was while studying the topic you
were studying.

882
00:45:18,620 --> 00:45:20,900
And that's exactly what happened
to me, because I wanted to be a

883
00:45:20,900 --> 00:45:23,500
neuroscientist.
I wanted to be perhaps a

884
00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:27,380
neurologist or psychiatrist and
when I started this degree I

885
00:45:27,380 --> 00:45:29,540
started to listen to the
arguments or the counter

886
00:45:29,540 --> 00:45:33,460
arguments of physicalist
theories or how we just make the

887
00:45:33,460 --> 00:45:36,980
assumption that the brain is
merely A correlation of this.

888
00:45:37,140 --> 00:45:39,380
I mean the mind story is merely
A correlation of this part of

889
00:45:39,380 --> 00:45:41,820
the brain and I started to
really dissect this

890
00:45:41,940 --> 00:45:43,500
philosophically within the
degree.

891
00:45:44,260 --> 00:45:47,100
Still very much physicalist at
heart, even currently.

892
00:45:48,260 --> 00:45:52,430
But I remember really thinking
about it, thinking right.

893
00:45:52,470 --> 00:45:56,190
I mean, we can't just make these
assumptions and and assume it's

894
00:45:56,190 --> 00:45:57,270
correct.
We can't.

895
00:45:57,430 --> 00:45:58,910
We barely know anything about
physics.

896
00:45:58,910 --> 00:46:01,670
I mean, we'll discuss
metaphysical things that I'm

897
00:46:01,670 --> 00:46:03,430
sure, I'm sure we're going to
discuss at this point.

898
00:46:03,430 --> 00:46:06,110
But when you think about the
metaphysical reality and the

899
00:46:06,110 --> 00:46:09,510
fact that 99 point whatever
percent of the universe is dark

900
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:12,750
matter and we can't really even
tell you what that is, we have

901
00:46:12,750 --> 00:46:14,790
to really question your
physicalist view.

902
00:46:15,350 --> 00:46:17,990
You can't make the assumption
that the physical reality is

903
00:46:18,030 --> 00:46:21,910
radicality of radical truth.
I mean you're asking yourself

904
00:46:21,910 --> 00:46:24,950
what is the truth of your
podcast and your YouTube

905
00:46:24,950 --> 00:46:26,390
channel.
I mean what is the truth When

906
00:46:26,390 --> 00:46:28,790
you when you look, I mean when I
look at you right now I'm seeing

907
00:46:28,790 --> 00:46:32,110
photons of light hit in my
retina trying to getting

908
00:46:32,110 --> 00:46:34,670
transduced.
I mean converting processing

909
00:46:34,670 --> 00:46:36,390
information and then I'm getting
that back.

910
00:46:36,390 --> 00:46:38,910
That's not even happening right
now.

911
00:46:39,230 --> 00:46:42,190
So when we think of temporality,
we think this is right now,

912
00:46:42,190 --> 00:46:44,390
that's not.
It's time that takes for the

913
00:46:44,390 --> 00:46:49,340
light to it takes time to go
cortex come back get processed.

914
00:46:49,660 --> 00:46:52,140
Emery's come back in flood.
And the last time I chatted to

915
00:46:52,140 --> 00:46:57,540
you and then I bring up this
sort of this this vision of you

916
00:46:57,540 --> 00:47:01,860
and that takes a long time.
Joshua Bach talks about that

917
00:47:02,060 --> 00:47:09,420
temporality and his the ontology
of reality is very blurry I

918
00:47:09,420 --> 00:47:11,620
find.
I call myself epistemologically.

919
00:47:13,540 --> 00:47:18,710
I call myself ontologically
agnostic, but systemologically I

920
00:47:18,710 --> 00:47:21,230
can tell you that certain things
I know to not be true.

921
00:47:23,590 --> 00:47:27,230
So if I had to say, one of the
things would be when it comes to

922
00:47:27,230 --> 00:47:30,710
my views on religion or God, I'm
ontologically gnostic.

923
00:47:30,870 --> 00:47:33,910
Regarding the origins of the
universe, what's out there and

924
00:47:34,430 --> 00:47:38,030
what could be, I don't know.
Fundamentally, I can tell you

925
00:47:38,030 --> 00:47:40,670
what I don't think is there.
I don't think that there's a man

926
00:47:40,670 --> 00:47:43,950
in the sky.
I don't think that somebody can

927
00:47:44,310 --> 00:47:46,710
tell you what to do, tweak it
here or there.

928
00:47:46,990 --> 00:47:50,670
I actually don't even think that
Deistic views are possibly true.

929
00:47:52,230 --> 00:47:55,990
You're always going to fall into
that infinite regress of who

930
00:47:55,990 --> 00:48:01,390
made who made the deist, who
made that just keep going and

931
00:48:01,390 --> 00:48:02,910
going.
I think it's so much more

932
00:48:02,910 --> 00:48:05,070
complicated.
I think that whatever the truth

933
00:48:05,070 --> 00:48:08,150
actually is, is not something
we're ever going to be able to

934
00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:11,230
understand.
I don't think we have.

935
00:48:11,470 --> 00:48:16,900
I mean, and I find it very,
very, very good that a lot of us

936
00:48:16,900 --> 00:48:20,300
think that we will gain access
to this knowledge.

937
00:48:22,220 --> 00:48:26,580
I think that the truth is not
something that you ever see you.

938
00:48:28,500 --> 00:48:30,380
Think the truth is something
we'll never see, we'll never

939
00:48:30,380 --> 00:48:31,260
experience?
You think?

940
00:48:31,260 --> 00:48:34,020
Yeah, we'll never really.
I mean, we barely experience

941
00:48:34,020 --> 00:48:36,020
reality.
If you think of the optical

942
00:48:36,020 --> 00:48:39,300
window on Earth, it's called the
optical window because it's all

943
00:48:39,300 --> 00:48:41,980
we can actually see.
It's all that electromagnetic

944
00:48:41,980 --> 00:48:44,960
radiation that the light passes
through, and it's all from

945
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,880
ultraviolet to infrared.
We don't get anything more than

946
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:49,920
that.
Anything less than that.

947
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,600
And then some species can see
the ultraviolet rays, for

948
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,920
example, birds, and some can see
infrared like snakes.

949
00:48:56,240 --> 00:48:58,720
And we see everything in between
red, right?

950
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,720
We'll never see gamma rays.
Well, we never ever see radio

951
00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:07,560
waves.
I mean, they're always here, but

952
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:12,790
we don't see it.
So we see almost nothing, but we

953
00:49:12,790 --> 00:49:16,670
do experience something.
So why is that?

954
00:49:16,710 --> 00:49:20,510
And what is the case, And that's
primarily the reason for my

955
00:49:20,510 --> 00:49:24,670
podcast, is my views changed so
much over the last, I would say

956
00:49:24,670 --> 00:49:28,550
5 to 10 years.
Regarding my own beliefs.

957
00:49:28,550 --> 00:49:33,510
I was very much a physicalist,
hardcore materialist.

958
00:49:33,990 --> 00:49:36,510
Not materialist in the sense
that I like to buy fancy things

959
00:49:36,550 --> 00:49:40,390
in case anyone's watching this.
The philosophical sphere.

960
00:49:40,390 --> 00:49:43,060
I mean, I'm not materialist in
the sense that I don't think

961
00:49:43,060 --> 00:49:45,980
everything's material.
I mean, I thought everything was

962
00:49:45,980 --> 00:49:49,060
material, sorry.
And that the physical world was

963
00:49:49,060 --> 00:49:51,780
the objective reality and the
objective truth.

964
00:49:52,660 --> 00:49:55,580
But that changed completely.
It slowly became very much

965
00:49:55,580 --> 00:49:57,540
emergentist.
I thought Okay consciousness

966
00:49:57,540 --> 00:50:01,860
probably emerges over time and
with Mind Body Solution, the

967
00:50:01,860 --> 00:50:05,420
podcast that I have, the goal
was to see if that's true.

968
00:50:05,820 --> 00:50:09,530
At the time.
And during that period, while

969
00:50:09,530 --> 00:50:12,890
doing my mental my masters in
philosophy and ethics of mental

970
00:50:12,890 --> 00:50:14,730
health, I slowly became an
illusionist.

971
00:50:15,210 --> 00:50:19,210
I started to really question
whether we really see reality of

972
00:50:19,210 --> 00:50:21,490
what it is, and illusionism
became very convincing.

973
00:50:21,490 --> 00:50:25,810
And that's Daniel Dennett, Keith
Frankish, Michael Graziano,

974
00:50:26,370 --> 00:50:29,090
Dosha Bach.
They're very much illusionists

975
00:50:29,170 --> 00:50:33,570
at heart, and I found myself
very convinced on the argument

976
00:50:33,570 --> 00:50:36,580
to be very convincing.
Galen Strosen calls it one of

977
00:50:36,620 --> 00:50:40,100
the most idiotic of stupid
theories he's ever heard in his

978
00:50:40,100 --> 00:50:41,900
life.
You know, paraphrasing.

979
00:50:41,900 --> 00:50:45,780
But but Galen, I mean, I'm
scheduled to chat to Galen at

980
00:50:45,780 --> 00:50:47,060
some point.
I mean, he's very, very

981
00:50:47,060 --> 00:50:48,780
prominent in the philosophy of
my sphere.

982
00:50:49,300 --> 00:50:52,420
And I mean he he's a
Mysterianist.

983
00:50:52,420 --> 00:50:55,620
I mean, and I think at this
point I'm closer to that.

984
00:50:55,620 --> 00:50:58,820
I just don't know.
And I don't claim to know.

985
00:51:00,940 --> 00:51:03,580
It's it's too complex.
It's too complicated.

986
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,240
But you still wanna get close.
That's the goal Podcast is Yeah,

987
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,080
let's explore this.
And I often close the podcast.

988
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,280
I'm not sure if you noticed, but
I often say thanks for taking us

989
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:17,920
one step closer to the solution.
I never say thank to providing

990
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,840
me with a mind body solution.
Yes, cuz I don't think we're

991
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,600
gonna get.
I think that this podcast is

992
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:26,920
merely A stepping stone to what
could have been.

993
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,360
That's interesting.
But you still, I mean, we still

994
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,080
enjoy the investigation.
We enjoy it.

995
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,350
I love it so much.
I mean, yeah, the knowing isn't

996
00:51:36,430 --> 00:51:38,870
disheartening to be.
It makes it even more

997
00:51:38,870 --> 00:51:40,630
intriguing.
I mean, what I would love for

998
00:51:40,630 --> 00:51:45,030
someone to give me a theory that
I cannot refute, or that other

999
00:51:45,030 --> 00:51:49,390
philosophers or scientists
cannot refute, just completely

1000
00:51:49,390 --> 00:51:53,270
construct information.
I mean, it's concrete info that

1001
00:51:53,270 --> 00:51:56,550
I cannot dispute, and I think
that's impossible.

1002
00:51:56,550 --> 00:51:59,030
I don't think not me personally,
but I think it's possible for

1003
00:51:59,030 --> 00:52:01,830
someone to give that information
where someone else is not going

1004
00:52:01,830 --> 00:52:03,070
to counter it with something
else.

1005
00:52:03,910 --> 00:52:05,480
Sure, yeah.
And I agree.

1006
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:09,440
I mean, theories are.
Yeah, I'm with you.

1007
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:10,720
Yeah.
There's so many interesting

1008
00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:12,120
theories, interesting people
talk to.

1009
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:19,400
And even sometimes I feel like
even if the theory is wrong, the

1010
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,240
process of going through and
thinking through it can lead you

1011
00:52:22,240 --> 00:52:24,520
to some insights that you'll
apply somewhere else.

1012
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:26,120
You know, it's not like all or
nothing.

1013
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:32,600
And just thinking back, my
channel is called the Truth, I

1014
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,270
think.
But closer to the truth is

1015
00:52:35,270 --> 00:52:37,230
already taken.
I don't know if you've ever seen

1016
00:52:37,430 --> 00:52:39,630
that.
So I was like, shit, I can't.

1017
00:52:39,630 --> 00:52:41,510
I can't.
Lawrence Kuhn took that from

1018
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:42,910
you.
Yeah, he's great and he's

1019
00:52:42,910 --> 00:52:44,310
lovely.
I mean, his interviews are

1020
00:52:44,310 --> 00:52:46,270
awesome.
You're one of the people that I

1021
00:52:46,270 --> 00:52:51,750
wanted to curate my content and
sort of align it with his size,

1022
00:52:52,110 --> 00:52:54,630
he sort of show.
That was why he got into

1023
00:52:54,630 --> 00:52:57,550
television was I try.
I wanted to actually host

1024
00:52:57,550 --> 00:53:00,310
something like that.
That was the pain when I went

1025
00:53:00,310 --> 00:53:03,380
down down that route.
OK, now I'm pulling.

1026
00:53:03,380 --> 00:53:06,180
We're pulling stuff out here.
We're like figuring out, OK, so

1027
00:53:06,180 --> 00:53:09,540
when I started out I was
thinking, OK, if I start here I

1028
00:53:09,540 --> 00:53:11,580
could end up doing a closer to
the truth type.

1029
00:53:13,860 --> 00:53:16,660
One day I might be able to do
this, and it never happened,

1030
00:53:16,660 --> 00:53:12,940
unfortunately.
So.

1031
00:53:17,300 --> 00:53:19,940
I tried to approach the South
African Broadcasting Commission

1032
00:53:21,500 --> 00:53:24,180
with many ideas about this, but
they felt that the niche

1033
00:53:24,180 --> 00:53:29,540
audience weren't enough of us.
Yeah, it's a real the audience

1034
00:53:29,540 --> 00:53:32,200
size.
I don't know.

1035
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,560
I feel like there's a hunger for
it as well.

1036
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:40,360
I mean, clearly, you know, but
it is tough, you know, it's like

1037
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:42,680
how accessible can you make it
to people?

1038
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:46,760
Like some folks have an interest
in it and they don't.

1039
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:48,680
Maybe perhaps they don't have
the educational background to

1040
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:53,080
sort of like get there, you
know, there's one of the things

1041
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:56,640
I try to do with some of my
explainer videos is provide a

1042
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:59,940
lot of visualizations.
To the point where like if

1043
00:53:59,940 --> 00:54:04,140
someone is interested but can't
quite get there, the visuals can

1044
00:54:04,140 --> 00:54:06,940
kind of get them closer.
You know, it can kind of be like

1045
00:54:07,580 --> 00:54:10,820
okay, it's kind of building.
And maybe, you know, they return

1046
00:54:10,820 --> 00:54:14,100
to the video a year later or the
topic a year later and their

1047
00:54:14,100 --> 00:54:17,140
mind has had time to think it.
You know, I think it threw in

1048
00:54:17,140 --> 00:54:19,700
the back of their head and they
return it and go, oh, I kind of

1049
00:54:19,700 --> 00:54:21,220
get that a little bit closer,
right.

1050
00:54:21,940 --> 00:54:23,700
So there's like a lot of
different ways that we can.

1051
00:54:25,020 --> 00:54:27,780
Help teach people and get them.
No, I was watching your videos

1052
00:54:27,780 --> 00:54:31,740
and I think that you do a great
job of doing that because you

1053
00:54:31,740 --> 00:54:34,900
say you're starting out.
But the way you're able to edit

1054
00:54:34,900 --> 00:54:37,460
your videos and get them all
into such a succinct and

1055
00:54:38,420 --> 00:54:40,300
detailed manner, it's pretty
epical.

1056
00:54:40,300 --> 00:54:42,580
I find it quite enjoyable to
watch.

1057
00:54:43,180 --> 00:54:44,820
Thanks man.
I will never tire hearing that.

1058
00:54:44,820 --> 00:54:47,700
Thank you so much.
That's really nice.

1059
00:54:48,340 --> 00:54:50,660
I had quite a nice binge.
Nice.

1060
00:54:50,660 --> 00:54:52,380
That's why I want that session
time, baby.

1061
00:54:53,950 --> 00:54:55,670
Get it up there.
I will say too, though.

1062
00:54:55,670 --> 00:55:00,550
I mean, I haven't considering a
rebrand and maybe like true

1063
00:55:00,550 --> 00:55:03,590
enough instead of the truth, you
know?

1064
00:55:04,030 --> 00:55:08,190
But then I feel like the
association might be that it's

1065
00:55:08,190 --> 00:55:10,670
not good.
That people are like, it's

1066
00:55:10,670 --> 00:55:13,950
close, not really good really.
Yeah.

1067
00:55:14,070 --> 00:55:17,150
But I do think, well, that's
something that we can talk

1068
00:55:17,150 --> 00:55:20,190
about, maybe jump into Hoffman a
little bit, which is your most

1069
00:55:20,750 --> 00:55:24,140
popular video.
So far, and I've covered him

1070
00:55:25,260 --> 00:55:28,060
well, just to spin a speech
truth theorem on my channel,

1071
00:55:29,060 --> 00:55:33,300
this idea of like, satisficing
this idea of like, good enough,

1072
00:55:33,300 --> 00:55:36,180
true enough, right?
I can't remember which

1073
00:55:36,180 --> 00:55:37,740
philosopher it was that
Schopenhauer maybe.

1074
00:55:38,820 --> 00:55:41,220
Who said, like the truth is just
what's true enough, you know,

1075
00:55:41,220 --> 00:55:45,900
you have to just accept the
limits and move on with your

1076
00:55:45,900 --> 00:55:48,620
life.
And you know you can't, because

1077
00:55:48,620 --> 00:55:50,620
otherwise, I mean you can really
easily.

1078
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,920
And I know I've been there in my
in my life at times where you

1079
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:59,200
get into this, like existential
nihilism about it, where the

1080
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:04,880
weight of it, the fact that you
can't get there, weighs you down

1081
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,000
so much.
And I've even I've had friends

1082
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,040
over the years who have been in
that situation as well.

1083
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:14,920
And it's a tough spot to be in.
Like, yeah, it sounds like,

1084
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:19,160
yeah, I've been as well.
I think that when you question

1085
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:23,730
too much can take you down the
rabbit hole right down there to

1086
00:56:23,730 --> 00:56:25,890
a point where you just think
there's nowhere out.

1087
00:56:27,250 --> 00:56:29,650
What is the purpose of this?
Why am I here?

1088
00:56:30,290 --> 00:56:33,810
It's like you're this, you're
not even a speck of dust on a

1089
00:56:33,810 --> 00:56:36,170
stage.
This play is just not about you,

1090
00:56:36,170 --> 00:56:39,450
but that's that's what it can
take you towards.

1091
00:56:39,450 --> 00:56:41,890
When you really start digging
deep, what is this universe?

1092
00:56:41,890 --> 00:56:45,370
Where are you?
Is it that existential nihilism

1093
00:56:45,370 --> 00:56:51,140
is very, very easy to fall into?
And I've been, But then you find

1094
00:56:51,140 --> 00:56:53,140
things that can bring you back
up.

1095
00:56:53,380 --> 00:56:54,860
I don't know how you managed to
do it.

1096
00:56:55,620 --> 00:56:56,740
Do you want to share that with
me?

1097
00:56:57,340 --> 00:56:59,980
I would, yeah, if you'd like to
hear, and I want to hear.

1098
00:57:00,220 --> 00:57:02,140
Well, you kind of touched on it.
I think it quite a bit at the

1099
00:57:02,140 --> 00:57:05,180
beginning.
I had that kind of period during

1100
00:57:05,180 --> 00:57:09,220
college between my junior and
senior years for about a year

1101
00:57:09,220 --> 00:57:12,820
where in hindsight, I didn't
realize it was like my first

1102
00:57:12,820 --> 00:57:17,060
oppressive period where every
day I woke up and all I could

1103
00:57:17,060 --> 00:57:20,600
think about was.
Does God exist?

1104
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:22,920
Like, what is going on here?
Metaphysical questions, right?

1105
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,160
Like what do I do?
Like, you know, and I was a very

1106
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:33,000
religious person growing up and
it was, you know, partly due to

1107
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:37,080
my, my, my, my, my folks and my
family Catholic goat Mass every

1108
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:38,440
Sunday.
So I was like, kind of

1109
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:41,600
instituted.
But I took the ball in high

1110
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:44,280
school and went running on my
own, too.

1111
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,160
I'd like really.
It was something I was.

1112
00:57:48,340 --> 00:57:50,340
Very significant to my life and
my identity.

1113
00:57:50,780 --> 00:57:52,340
And I believed in it
wholeheartedly.

1114
00:57:52,340 --> 00:57:55,820
I mean, you know, all the way
through and I led retreats and I

1115
00:57:55,820 --> 00:58:00,780
was this very, yeah, it's very
religious.

1116
00:58:00,780 --> 00:58:04,820
And then I got to college and I
went to Brown University, which

1117
00:58:04,820 --> 00:58:08,980
is, you know very liberal place,
super different than what I was

1118
00:58:08,980 --> 00:58:11,460
used to going Catholic school my
whole life growing up.

1119
00:58:12,020 --> 00:58:15,580
And that just, you know that the
religious tendency, that

1120
00:58:15,580 --> 00:58:20,230
conservative tendency.
Crashed into that world and it

1121
00:58:20,230 --> 00:58:21,750
was very difficult, especially
at the beginning.

1122
00:58:21,750 --> 00:58:24,430
But then slowly I started to
open my mind to other ways of

1123
00:58:24,430 --> 00:58:28,790
thinking.
And then, yes, at some point I

1124
00:58:28,790 --> 00:58:33,750
thought, how can I ration my way
to the.

1125
00:58:33,950 --> 00:58:35,670
Yeah, to the core, right to the
truth.

1126
00:58:36,790 --> 00:58:39,350
And I wrestled with it for like
a year.

1127
00:58:39,350 --> 00:58:41,630
I mean, every day it was like
really weighing me down.

1128
00:58:41,630 --> 00:58:45,070
And at the end of that period or
so, it was like between my.

1129
00:58:46,050 --> 00:58:50,050
Fall and spring semesters at
college, I just threw my hands

1130
00:58:50,050 --> 00:58:52,250
up and I was like, I don't know,
I can't.

1131
00:58:52,490 --> 00:58:55,650
I have to be agnostic.
I can't choose because what I

1132
00:58:55,650 --> 00:59:00,210
was also finding was I was I was
like getting to my I was, I was

1133
00:59:00,210 --> 00:59:02,410
kind of like logically trying to
get to where I already was.

1134
00:59:02,690 --> 00:59:05,730
You know, I was like, let me
because it's comfortable.

1135
00:59:05,730 --> 00:59:07,250
I mean there's a lot of and
there's a lot of good reasons

1136
00:59:07,250 --> 00:59:09,050
to.
I'm not anti religious, by the

1137
00:59:09,050 --> 00:59:12,570
way.
I'm I'm very, you know, whatever

1138
00:59:12,570 --> 00:59:15,580
works for people, you know?
Very open to it.

1139
00:59:15,580 --> 00:59:19,540
But I just have to let that go.
And you hinted at it before too.

1140
00:59:19,540 --> 00:59:24,180
It's scary to be like you
thought you had you you you had

1141
00:59:24,180 --> 00:59:28,500
this, this feeling like you had
the support that everything was

1142
00:59:28,500 --> 00:59:31,180
going to work out that you know,
a guiding principle.

1143
00:59:31,180 --> 00:59:34,500
And then you're you're in the
void, you know you're by

1144
00:59:34,500 --> 00:59:36,660
yourself.
You're you have only yourself to

1145
00:59:36,660 --> 00:59:39,740
rely on and your relationships,
other people of course in the

1146
00:59:39,740 --> 00:59:42,860
world.
But yeah, that was.

1147
00:59:43,570 --> 00:59:45,410
That was the period of, yeah,
the darkness.

1148
00:59:45,410 --> 00:59:49,410
And then I just a certain amount
of acceptance that just wasn't

1149
00:59:49,410 --> 00:59:51,930
gonna get there by rationality
alone.

1150
00:59:53,730 --> 00:59:56,130
Yeah, it's one of those strange
feelings you feel like.

1151
00:59:56,130 --> 00:59:58,010
I said, I felt super free at the
time.

1152
00:59:58,610 --> 01:00:00,610
And I mean, that didn't last
very long.

1153
01:00:00,850 --> 01:00:06,170
It was, it quickly deteriorated
into this downward spiral of

1154
01:00:06,170 --> 01:00:08,250
trying to search.
I mean, what is the point of

1155
01:00:08,250 --> 01:00:09,170
this?
Yeah.

1156
01:00:09,250 --> 01:00:10,770
Why we're doing this.
Yeah.

1157
01:00:10,810 --> 01:00:13,250
I mean, you start asking
yourself some dark questions.

1158
01:00:14,020 --> 01:00:16,820
But then you slowly fall in love
with certain things again and

1159
01:00:16,820 --> 01:00:19,620
you start to and you start
enjoying the chase.

1160
01:00:19,660 --> 01:00:22,340
I mean, that's what you're doing
now with the truth.

1161
01:00:22,340 --> 01:00:25,860
You're trying to find it.
And you might not think you

1162
01:00:25,860 --> 01:00:28,460
will, might think you get close
enough, true enough.

1163
01:00:29,220 --> 01:00:32,900
But same goes for me.
I mean, I I'm, I'm all about the

1164
01:00:32,900 --> 01:00:36,740
journey at this point.
It's not about finding the mind

1165
01:00:36,740 --> 01:00:39,060
body solution.
I mean, the mind body problem is

1166
01:00:39,420 --> 01:00:42,460
to me, my favorite problem
philosophically.

1167
01:00:42,820 --> 01:00:45,940
It is what I live for at this
point, obviously.

1168
01:00:45,940 --> 01:00:49,340
I mean, it's become pretty much
my identity at this point.

1169
01:00:49,340 --> 01:00:53,180
But yeah, mind body solution is
something I don't think we will

1170
01:00:53,180 --> 01:00:54,820
find, and not at least in my
lifetime.

1171
01:00:54,820 --> 01:00:58,580
But I think that trying to find
the solution or getting people

1172
01:00:58,580 --> 01:01:01,620
to discuss it and have this
discourse and communicate, I

1173
01:01:01,620 --> 01:01:03,660
mean the fact that we're
discussing it right now, I mean,

1174
01:01:03,660 --> 01:01:06,380
it's pretty cool.
So it's so cool to know that

1175
01:01:06,380 --> 01:01:08,820
there's so many people out there
want to talk about this.

1176
01:01:09,610 --> 01:01:12,170
And when I started the podcast,
I was so surprised because I

1177
01:01:12,170 --> 01:01:16,210
initially intended on not doing
any sort of active marketing or

1178
01:01:17,450 --> 01:01:18,970
to promote the podcast to doing
anything.

1179
01:01:18,970 --> 01:01:21,770
And I haven't.
It's just grown very, very

1180
01:01:21,770 --> 01:01:24,010
naturally.
A lot of people have been coming

1181
01:01:24,010 --> 01:01:27,930
to messaging me, emailing me,
making contact very naturally.

1182
01:01:27,930 --> 01:01:31,970
And it's pretty cool because
it's it's it seems like people

1183
01:01:31,970 --> 01:01:33,290
are longing for this
information.

1184
01:01:33,490 --> 01:01:35,930
They want to see this or listen
to this discourse.

1185
01:01:36,490 --> 01:01:39,730
And I think that time has come
and podcasting has given us this

1186
01:01:39,730 --> 01:01:43,770
opportunity where finally the
deeper questions can be spoken

1187
01:01:43,770 --> 01:01:45,730
about without sounding like
you're having a psychotic

1188
01:01:45,730 --> 01:01:49,130
episode.
Sure, absolutely.

1189
01:01:49,410 --> 01:01:52,010
And I want to touch on one thing
that interests me, and it brings

1190
01:01:52,010 --> 01:01:58,570
me to your interview with
Chomsky, is because you asked

1191
01:01:58,570 --> 01:02:01,130
him about, I think, the mind
body problem or something, or

1192
01:02:01,130 --> 01:02:04,330
consciousness in general.
And he said something to the

1193
01:02:04,330 --> 01:02:06,530
degree that it didn't really
interest him that much.

1194
01:02:06,530 --> 01:02:08,530
He wasn't that interested in
consciousness.

1195
01:02:08,810 --> 01:02:11,250
And you say actually, well,
sorry, go ahead Redhead, when I

1196
01:02:11,250 --> 01:02:13,170
continued, I'll, I'll try and
touch on that.

1197
01:02:13,290 --> 01:02:17,730
I was gonna say when he said
that, I don't want to say I

1198
01:02:17,730 --> 01:02:21,090
agree with him, but it interests
me.

1199
01:02:21,090 --> 01:02:22,530
It's like an interest of mine.
Of course.

1200
01:02:22,530 --> 01:02:24,490
I mean, it's like a core
question, right?

1201
01:02:24,490 --> 01:02:27,130
Like what we have access to is
this experience.

1202
01:02:27,370 --> 01:02:29,810
That's what we have.
That's the big problem.

1203
01:02:30,450 --> 01:02:32,490
But I do think it's interesting
that like.

1204
01:02:34,190 --> 01:02:35,870
To me, the question is like,
what is reality?

1205
01:02:36,070 --> 01:02:38,910
You know, what is every, you
know, everything and included,

1206
01:02:38,910 --> 01:02:43,150
including consciousness, right.
And so I want to hear, I only

1207
01:02:43,150 --> 01:02:45,950
hear why, why It's the most
interesting problem to you.

1208
01:02:45,950 --> 01:02:49,710
Like, like, yeah, if you could.
I think so.

1209
01:02:49,710 --> 01:02:52,110
I agree with you.
I think that fundamentally I

1210
01:02:52,110 --> 01:02:54,630
actually care more about what
reality is than consciousness.

1211
01:02:55,190 --> 01:03:01,950
So the essence, I'm on the same
page, but for me the issue comes

1212
01:03:01,950 --> 01:03:06,590
with the fact that you can have
a theory of consciousness that

1213
01:03:06,590 --> 01:03:10,070
does incorporate reality within
it.

1214
01:03:10,510 --> 01:03:14,470
So Donald Hoffman, for example,
a lot of Pansycus theories and

1215
01:03:15,190 --> 01:03:18,590
certain idealist theories,
reality can become part of

1216
01:03:18,590 --> 01:03:22,110
consciousness.
So because it's the only thing,

1217
01:03:22,110 --> 01:03:25,310
except for reality that you can
sort of bring into the topic.

1218
01:03:25,740 --> 01:03:27,620
And the fact that I studied
medicine and did a Master's in

1219
01:03:27,620 --> 01:03:30,580
mental health and in psychiatry,
obviously I came towards it with

1220
01:03:30,580 --> 01:03:35,340
a bias towards the mind.
But overall I still care more

1221
01:03:35,340 --> 01:03:38,020
about what reality is.
And I agree with Om Chomsky

1222
01:03:38,020 --> 01:03:42,020
because what he said was that
the more important question is

1223
01:03:42,020 --> 01:03:45,980
what is reality.
And I agree because the issue is

1224
01:03:45,980 --> 01:03:47,620
that we don't know what reality
is.

1225
01:03:47,980 --> 01:03:52,300
So physicalist views don't
really hold much weight,

1226
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:55,560
particularly today when people
are showing that we don't know

1227
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:58,720
what physics really is.
I mean, quantum physics says one

1228
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,960
thing, general relativity says
another thing.

1229
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:05,920
Well, we're struggling to
coincide these two theories.

1230
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:08,760
And then they have there are
physicists out there that are

1231
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:11,400
showing that space-time.
I mean, Donald Hoffman says this

1232
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:13,080
all the time and his FaceTime is
doomed.

1233
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:15,080
And then you have to start
wondering, why are they saying

1234
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:21,800
it's such a weird statement to
hear a physicist say space-time?

1235
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:24,640
That would freak someone out who
doesn't take.

1236
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:28,040
I mean, if you take physics
seriously, you take predictions

1237
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:31,360
and mathematical calculations
seriously, you have to start

1238
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:34,880
pondering, why would someone
with such a vast intellect and

1239
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:37,800
knowledge base say something so
absurd?

1240
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:41,080
Maybe because it's true.
Maybe because it's the truth.

1241
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:46,440
So for me, that was a big part
of this whole thing.

1242
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:49,080
I started to wonder Okay if
we're not seeing reality for

1243
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:51,230
what it is.
That's why I went down this

1244
01:04:51,230 --> 01:04:54,110
illusionist route.
I was like, okay, why are we so

1245
01:04:54,110 --> 01:04:56,190
obsessed with this question in
the 1st place?

1246
01:04:57,950 --> 01:05:00,790
Why?
Cuz I know David Chalmers calls

1247
01:05:00,790 --> 01:05:04,750
it the calls it the meta problem
of consciousness.

1248
01:05:05,110 --> 01:05:07,150
The fact that we're so obsessed
with this problem of

1249
01:05:07,150 --> 01:05:09,870
understanding consciousness in
the 1st place is the hard

1250
01:05:09,870 --> 01:05:11,190
problem.
He first labels it the hard

1251
01:05:11,190 --> 01:05:13,030
problem and then he labels it
the meta problem.

1252
01:05:13,830 --> 01:05:16,110
Why do you want to know this?
What's the problem here?

1253
01:05:16,780 --> 01:05:19,060
And And I started to realize
it's because human have.

1254
01:05:19,300 --> 01:05:23,100
Human beings have the tendency
to put themselves in a slightly

1255
01:05:23,100 --> 01:05:25,420
higher pedestal than every other
species.

1256
01:05:26,220 --> 01:05:29,300
We've done so for many years.
In my dissertation, I have one

1257
01:05:29,300 --> 01:05:32,700
line where I said the same way
that Copernicus took us out of

1258
01:05:32,700 --> 01:05:36,420
the center of the solar system,
same way that Darwin took us out

1259
01:05:36,420 --> 01:05:39,500
of the top of the food chain,
Illusionism will do the same for

1260
01:05:39,500 --> 01:05:41,580
consciousness.
It'll take us out of this idea

1261
01:05:41,580 --> 01:05:46,180
where we think we have this
essence or this Ian vital like

1262
01:05:47,310 --> 01:05:52,470
soul for example, that only we
have only human beings tend to

1263
01:05:52,470 --> 01:05:54,510
possess.
For some reason we have to put

1264
01:05:54,510 --> 01:05:58,550
ourselves up there.
And then over time I did the

1265
01:05:58,550 --> 01:06:00,670
podcast and I started to
question illusionism.

1266
01:06:00,670 --> 01:06:04,630
So how that happened.
It all just keeps changing.

1267
01:06:04,750 --> 01:06:07,510
I'm so agnostic at this point.
I have absolutely no idea what I

1268
01:06:07,510 --> 01:06:10,670
think.
It actually can cause mental

1269
01:06:10,670 --> 01:06:14,050
distress, to be honest.
Still, yeah.

1270
01:06:14,050 --> 01:06:16,650
And I I spoke to, I mean Kurt J
Mangle from Theories of

1271
01:06:16,650 --> 01:06:18,610
Everything.
We were discussing how, I mean,

1272
01:06:18,730 --> 01:06:22,370
our podcasts are very similar.
And we were talking about how

1273
01:06:23,490 --> 01:06:26,370
the more we investigate these
topics and these phenomena, the

1274
01:06:26,770 --> 01:06:28,850
more you start questioning your
own mind.

1275
01:06:29,370 --> 01:06:32,490
Reality, and it really can get
to you.

1276
01:06:32,490 --> 01:06:35,570
It can drain you.
It can, it can almost put you

1277
01:06:35,570 --> 01:06:39,170
into it can either make someone
very schizophrenic, so psychotic

1278
01:06:39,730 --> 01:06:41,970
in the sense that they start to
lose touch with reality,

1279
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:45,800
schizophrenia for example.
It's not really split mind, it's

1280
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:51,800
more of a split reality.
You start to misinterpret

1281
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:55,760
information a lot more.
So let's say give you an

1282
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:58,800
example.
If if Donald Hoffman comes to me

1283
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:02,640
and tells me that space-time is
doomed and he shows me the

1284
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:06,240
physics teaches me why, I mean,
I could at some point just lose

1285
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:08,760
touch and reality altogether.
I could at some point just not

1286
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:11,400
care anymore.
And what's the point in waking

1287
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:15,320
up and going to work anymore if
this is not now?

1288
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:17,720
That's a poor example.
I feel like I could have given

1289
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:20,440
you a better one.
But the fact is, if someone

1290
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:22,240
gives you something like that,
if someone tells you like, look,

1291
01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:26,400
the sun doesn't really exist,
and what if the sun was my

1292
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:31,520
favorite thing to wake up to, it
can affect your mind.

1293
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:34,440
So we were talking about how
these theories of everything and

1294
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:38,000
these theories of consciousness,
in my case, the more you dig

1295
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:42,970
deep, the more you delve into it
and the more confused you get or

1296
01:07:42,970 --> 01:07:46,210
you lose touch with reality.
And that's what it's like to be

1297
01:07:46,210 --> 01:07:50,010
schizophrenic in sense, is
losing touch with reality, the

1298
01:07:50,010 --> 01:07:52,810
sensory stimulation versus your
interpretation of what's going

1299
01:07:52,810 --> 01:07:56,010
on start to change.
And I know Kurt spoke to Karl

1300
01:07:56,010 --> 01:07:58,610
Friston about this.
And I wanna ask Karl Friston

1301
01:07:58,610 --> 01:08:00,850
about this as well.
This is one of the most cited

1302
01:08:00,850 --> 01:08:04,090
neuroscientists on the planet,
if not the most cited scientists

1303
01:08:04,090 --> 01:08:06,730
on the planet.
And he often talks about it as

1304
01:08:06,730 --> 01:08:08,830
well.
I mean, we take in prior

1305
01:08:08,830 --> 01:08:11,590
information and make posterior
conclusions regarding what's

1306
01:08:11,590 --> 01:08:14,230
going to happen.
So for example, if you're you're

1307
01:08:14,230 --> 01:08:18,350
a musician and I'm a painter,
you and I both enter lecture at

1308
01:08:18,350 --> 01:08:21,590
Brown one day, the first thing
you might notice in the lecture

1309
01:08:21,590 --> 01:08:24,750
theater is lecture is guitar,
whereas I might notice the

1310
01:08:24,750 --> 01:08:28,109
artwork on the walls.
So the fact that we both enter

1311
01:08:28,109 --> 01:08:30,790
the same room discussing the
same thing while heading there

1312
01:08:30,790 --> 01:08:34,109
with the same intention, the
moment we enter sensory

1313
01:08:34,109 --> 01:08:37,790
stimulation, enters our
reasoners, completely changes

1314
01:08:37,790 --> 01:08:40,710
the way we'll experience this
lecture from the beginning to

1315
01:08:40,710 --> 01:08:43,790
the end, because the prior
information is dictates the

1316
01:08:43,790 --> 01:08:46,830
posterior conclusions.
Sure, a lot of neuroscience is

1317
01:08:46,830 --> 01:08:49,990
very intriguing in that regard
and starting to show a lot about

1318
01:08:49,990 --> 01:08:53,910
how we really think, and we have
heuristic adaptations to the

1319
01:08:53,910 --> 01:08:55,830
world.
So we take shortcuts a lot of

1320
01:08:55,870 --> 01:08:59,189
the time.
We don't really see anything for

1321
01:08:59,189 --> 01:09:01,430
what it really is.
And the brain has to make

1322
01:09:01,910 --> 01:09:06,990
assumptions, so we have to guess
estimates, basically, of what's

1323
01:09:06,990 --> 01:09:10,390
really happening out there,
caricatures of the reality.

1324
01:09:10,910 --> 01:09:13,830
And to me that's a big problem
because that means trying to

1325
01:09:13,830 --> 01:09:18,189
find the truth in a world that
is a caricature or a cartoonish

1326
01:09:18,189 --> 01:09:19,950
version of what reality might
be.

1327
01:09:20,630 --> 01:09:22,270
It's going to be a very
difficult task.

1328
01:09:25,790 --> 01:09:28,750
Yes, absolutely true.
That's so much to unpack.

1329
01:09:29,149 --> 01:09:34,550
I want to HM, let's talk.
You wanna talk about Donald

1330
01:09:34,550 --> 01:09:35,390
Hoffman a little bit.
Could you?

1331
01:09:35,390 --> 01:09:39,490
Maybe you spoke with him?
Yeah, we actually just chatted

1332
01:09:39,490 --> 01:09:42,689
the other day and we're
scheduling around too.

1333
01:09:43,649 --> 01:09:47,569
We're discussing one of his new
papers as well, and he's here to

1334
01:09:47,569 --> 01:09:49,010
publish it.
So I can't chat about the paper,

1335
01:09:49,010 --> 01:09:55,050
but ideally, Don is such a great
guy, such a kind.

1336
01:09:55,410 --> 01:09:57,290
Yeah.
I mean, he's so, so

1337
01:09:57,290 --> 01:09:59,890
misinterpreted.
And that's something I love

1338
01:09:59,890 --> 01:10:03,490
about this podcast that I'm
doing, is that I get a guy whose

1339
01:10:03,490 --> 01:10:07,890
theory is so perhaps outrageous
to so many other people and then

1340
01:10:07,890 --> 01:10:11,770
try to incorporate that theory
into and make it understandable

1341
01:10:11,770 --> 01:10:14,890
to an audience that might have
misinterpreted it from the get

1342
01:10:14,890 --> 01:10:17,570
go.
And so my goal is never to

1343
01:10:17,570 --> 01:10:21,290
actually debate.
The goal is to always try and

1344
01:10:21,290 --> 01:10:24,850
understand their point of view
and even if I disagree with it,

1345
01:10:25,210 --> 01:10:28,970
try my best to actually defend
their view during the podcast.

1346
01:10:29,930 --> 01:10:32,890
Play the devil's advocate every
now and then, but then slowly

1347
01:10:32,890 --> 01:10:36,470
try and portray their view in a
way I think I would have liked

1348
01:10:36,470 --> 01:10:40,710
them to have articulated it to
me and the way I can tell that

1349
01:10:40,710 --> 01:10:44,230
the viewers from their comments
want to hear it cuz obviously

1350
01:10:44,230 --> 01:10:46,150
read the comments and try and
determine okay, what are people

1351
01:10:46,150 --> 01:10:48,790
saying when they do an interview
with someone else, what are they

1352
01:10:48,790 --> 01:10:50,070
asking?
And I try and incorporate those

1353
01:10:50,070 --> 01:10:52,550
questions as well.
So it's very well researched and

1354
01:10:52,550 --> 01:10:56,710
refined and I try and ask very
informed questions not always

1355
01:10:56,710 --> 01:10:59,270
the best since I mean we we're
all we're all learning we're all

1356
01:10:59,270 --> 01:11:02,900
trying our best.
But Don it was so easy.

1357
01:11:02,900 --> 01:11:06,980
I mean he's so courteous he's so
kind he he really liked the fact

1358
01:11:06,980 --> 01:11:09,220
that I did do that though.
But I took the time to try and

1359
01:11:09,220 --> 01:11:11,380
understand his theory cuz he
told me after the interview was

1360
01:11:11,380 --> 01:11:13,940
done that he'll be willing to
come on the show whenever he

1361
01:11:13,940 --> 01:11:17,140
won, whenever I ask him, I mean
which really great thing to

1362
01:11:17,140 --> 01:11:21,140
know.
So his theory is so incredible

1363
01:11:21,140 --> 01:11:23,980
when you.
So he speaks about how he was

1364
01:11:23,980 --> 01:11:27,660
doing the calculations and he
decided to calculate what are

1365
01:11:27,660 --> 01:11:33,220
the odds that fitness payoffs or
trying to determine how we would

1366
01:11:33,220 --> 01:11:35,780
have to survive within the
reality we live in.

1367
01:11:35,780 --> 01:11:38,780
Based on the information we
receive by the retina, by the

1368
01:11:38,780 --> 01:11:42,300
auditory system, proprioception,
lowing where we are, etc.

1369
01:11:43,180 --> 01:11:46,140
What are the odds that we would
see reality for what it is And

1370
01:11:46,140 --> 01:11:49,380
he did the calculation.
He sat down with a bunch of

1371
01:11:49,380 --> 01:11:51,380
other physicists and
mathematicians, and they came up

1372
01:11:51,380 --> 01:11:54,620
to the to the amazing,
astonishing number of 0

1373
01:11:55,500 --> 01:11:58,340
Probability of seeing reality
for what it is would be 0.

1374
01:11:58,340 --> 01:12:02,390
And he said, and I quote, he had
to sit down, paraphrasing, but

1375
01:12:02,430 --> 01:12:05,310
he had to sit down and just take
a breather.

1376
01:12:11,990 --> 01:12:06,190
Not even.
And when he told me that, I

1377
01:12:06,190 --> 01:12:10,190
remember also, this is crazy.
It's zero.

1378
01:12:10,590 --> 01:12:14,030
Not even.
Yeah, not even .01.

1379
01:12:14,030 --> 01:12:16,110
Yeah well, I think it's the IT
approaches.

1380
01:12:16,150 --> 01:12:18,950
It approaches 0 at the limit or
something.

1381
01:12:18,950 --> 01:12:20,750
It's like if it goes to
Infinity, if you have like an

1382
01:12:20,750 --> 01:12:23,430
infinite number, it's like 0
point one.

1383
01:12:23,630 --> 01:12:28,910
It's just a 0.00 something.
Yeah, really, really concerning.

1384
01:12:28,910 --> 01:12:31,510
I was like wow, he's not the
only one.

1385
01:12:31,510 --> 01:12:35,510
Firstly, I asked one of my
friends, he's a physicist here

1386
01:12:35,510 --> 01:12:37,190
in South Africa.
I asked him what are your

1387
01:12:37,190 --> 01:12:42,190
thoughts on space-time and do
you think universe is real?

1388
01:12:42,190 --> 01:12:46,630
I remember him just saying no
and he said it so blase he was

1389
01:12:46,630 --> 01:12:49,750
just kind of like, Nah, what do
you mean?

1390
01:12:49,750 --> 01:12:51,710
He said now if you do the
calculations, you sit down, you

1391
01:12:51,710 --> 01:12:53,790
actually think about it.
Reality is nothing like what we

1392
01:12:53,790 --> 01:12:56,110
think it is.
Then you have to really ask

1393
01:12:56,110 --> 01:12:58,430
yourself, OK, physicists are
really starting to take this

1394
01:12:58,470 --> 01:13:01,390
idea seriously.
And here comes a guy who's doing

1395
01:13:01,390 --> 01:13:03,670
that and then adding another
theory to it.

1396
01:13:05,150 --> 01:13:08,710
So he's done two things.
One is he's he's sort of shown

1397
01:13:08,710 --> 01:13:12,350
us that space-time is not
fundamental the way we see it,

1398
01:13:13,150 --> 01:13:15,830
but he takes it further, which
is where?

1399
01:13:15,830 --> 01:13:17,910
Which is where.
A lot of people then disagree

1400
01:13:17,910 --> 01:13:21,470
with Don and a lot of other
neuroscientists and philosophers

1401
01:13:21,470 --> 01:13:23,270
of consciousness disagree with
Don his way.

1402
01:13:24,120 --> 01:13:26,600
You don't decide to make
conscious agents a fundamental

1403
01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:29,280
aspect of consciousness and this
is the issue.

1404
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:32,480
He has to now fight a battle.
The introduction of conscious

1405
01:13:32,480 --> 01:13:34,640
agents is always an assumption
that we have to make.

1406
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:37,200
I mean anyone makes a theory has
to start off with a basic

1407
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:41,120
assumption and if you introduce
conscious agents as the basic

1408
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:44,280
assumption, one problem is you
introduce conscious agents which

1409
01:13:44,280 --> 01:13:46,720
is not necessary.
But the second problem is you

1410
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:49,990
always need 2 conscious agents
according to Don's theory.

1411
01:13:50,630 --> 01:13:52,830
And that makes it a lot more
difficult because now you've

1412
01:13:52,830 --> 01:13:58,870
basically doubled the problem
and a lot of even idealists cuz

1413
01:13:58,870 --> 01:14:01,470
Don fundamental conscious
realism, which is the name of

1414
01:14:01,470 --> 01:14:03,790
his theory, is a form of
idealism.

1415
01:14:04,390 --> 01:14:07,070
And a lot of idealists disagree
fundamentally with the fact that

1416
01:14:07,070 --> 01:14:10,710
he introduces conscious agents.
Yeah, I mean Don's theory.

1417
01:14:10,710 --> 01:14:13,950
I mean I'm never going to do
justice to it by discussing it.

1418
01:14:13,950 --> 01:14:17,630
But I can tell you one thing,
it's far more complicated than

1419
01:14:17,630 --> 01:14:20,310
what I just said.
Oh yeah, absolutely.

1420
01:14:20,310 --> 01:14:23,230
I've gone down the rabbit hole.
I've read most of, I mean, most

1421
01:14:23,230 --> 01:14:25,710
of his paper.
Like, yeah, a lot of his papers.

1422
01:14:25,750 --> 01:14:28,470
I've read his book and I think
about 20 different papers of him

1423
01:14:28,470 --> 01:14:34,150
and his colleagues sing but the
others, but she's so it's very

1424
01:14:34,150 --> 01:14:36,150
intricate.
These guys have spent time,

1425
01:14:36,350 --> 01:14:40,390
years effort producing the
wonderful mathematics there.

1426
01:14:40,950 --> 01:14:43,030
Yeah, and I did.
I mean, I've done a three-part

1427
01:14:43,030 --> 01:14:45,790
series on just fitness, speech,
truth.

1428
01:14:46,650 --> 01:14:48,970
So not even getting yet to.
I mean interface theory

1429
01:14:48,970 --> 01:14:53,770
perception builds out of that
pretty I think intuitively but

1430
01:14:53,770 --> 01:14:56,890
the conscious agents, what I how
I describe it to people

1431
01:14:56,890 --> 01:15:00,210
sometimes is like and I'm not
sure if Don would say it this

1432
01:15:00,210 --> 01:15:06,850
way but most people assume that
consciousness is like a bottom

1433
01:15:06,850 --> 01:15:12,690
up process that like it forms
from the neuronal activity in

1434
01:15:12,690 --> 01:15:15,890
the brain right?
Don's is like top down.

1435
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:18,400
Like, it starts with
consciousness and works its way,

1436
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:21,040
you know, that way.
That's that's how I think about

1437
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:22,720
it.
And I'm like, OK, maybe, yeah,

1438
01:15:22,840 --> 01:15:26,360
I'm.
I think I'm super interested in

1439
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:31,000
that idea.
I'm most, I think I'm most

1440
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:34,400
convinced by fitness beats truth
because there's a layer.

1441
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:37,520
There's something intuitive
about it that just when I first

1442
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:41,040
heard that his Ted talk about
six years, however long ago it

1443
01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:44,640
was, I was.
Blown away all I could think

1444
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:47,960
about for weeks.
Telling people about telling my

1445
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:49,720
friends, telling my family, My
God, this is crazy.

1446
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:52,200
You gotta get this.
No one was interested.

1447
01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:56,240
One of the reasons why I started
this channel was that I couldn't

1448
01:15:56,240 --> 01:15:59,640
find anyone in my social circles
that cared about this stuff.

1449
01:15:59,640 --> 01:16:01,560
Same same.
You too okay?

1450
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:03,080
Cool.
We have a related thing.

1451
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:05,840
It's like, how do you not think
this is interesting?

1452
01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:09,920
Come on, wake up.
But watch that Ted talk.

1453
01:16:09,920 --> 01:16:11,640
You're talking about the one
with the blue shirt, eh?

1454
01:16:12,430 --> 01:16:15,030
Yeah, absolutely.
I've cut that one up quite a bit

1455
01:16:15,030 --> 01:16:17,030
for my videos.
I've thrown in a lot of hero

1456
01:16:17,030 --> 01:16:21,750
shots of him from below, where
it's him in the background and I

1457
01:16:21,750 --> 01:16:26,430
think it's incredible.
Man was Israeli really first, I

1458
01:16:26,430 --> 01:16:31,470
think it was.
What was he called again, I

1459
01:16:31,470 --> 01:16:32,910
guess.
I think he has two books, I

1460
01:16:32,910 --> 01:16:36,030
think.
Case against reality, yes.

1461
01:16:36,030 --> 01:16:37,350
Case against reality was the
one.

1462
01:16:37,950 --> 01:16:40,090
Yes, I had the hard cover
version.

1463
01:16:40,090 --> 01:16:43,610
I think it's got a white cover
instead of the colorful flower

1464
01:16:43,610 --> 01:16:46,490
on the paperback version.
But I remember reading that and

1465
01:16:46,490 --> 01:16:47,690
then I went straight into the
rapid hole.

1466
01:16:47,690 --> 01:16:49,970
We're done.
I watched the Ted talk.

1467
01:16:49,970 --> 01:16:52,010
I started reading all his
publications.

1468
01:16:52,010 --> 01:16:56,130
I just went in depth, so I was
super excited to chat today.

1469
01:16:57,010 --> 01:16:59,730
Yeah, I gotta reach out to.
I mean, I will at some point

1470
01:16:59,730 --> 01:17:02,610
reach out to him and see if he
wouldn't mind doing maybe.

1471
01:17:03,970 --> 01:17:07,880
Yeah, no, I'll actually direct
him to your the three-part

1472
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:09,200
series.
I'm sure I'll enjoy that.

1473
01:17:09,440 --> 01:17:11,120
Oh yes, please do.
I would.

1474
01:17:11,280 --> 01:17:14,760
I mean, dude, that would be,
that would be like a dream.

1475
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:20,320
I mean, I'll chat with him and
let him know that I had a chat

1476
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:21,760
yesterday and I want you to
watch something.

1477
01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:24,560
Tev Oh my goodness.
Thank you so much.

1478
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:28,360
That's it's your kind.
I appreciate that a lot.

1479
01:17:28,360 --> 01:17:29,680
I really do.
I really, really do.

1480
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:33,120
Cuz I also, it's so clear.
I've listened to so many hours

1481
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:34,840
of his interviews.
So clear.

1482
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:36,360
He's a nice guy.
You can tell.

1483
01:17:36,360 --> 01:17:39,430
Like.
Kind so like, yeah.

1484
01:17:39,830 --> 01:17:42,430
So he emailed me.
Yes, I think it was two days

1485
01:17:42,430 --> 01:17:44,590
ago.
He, I mean this is like months

1486
01:17:44,590 --> 01:17:47,510
after we last spoke.
Well a couple probably weeks.

1487
01:17:47,870 --> 01:17:49,990
It was just out of nowhere
e-mail where he just said, hey

1488
01:17:49,990 --> 01:17:53,670
Tev, I've got a guest that I'd
like for you to possibly speak

1489
01:17:53,670 --> 01:17:54,790
to you.
I mean and he introduced me,

1490
01:17:54,790 --> 01:17:58,790
someone so amazing and I'm super
keen to introduce to the

1491
01:17:58,950 --> 01:18:01,150
audience of mind Body Solution.
But I mean it's one of those

1492
01:18:01,150 --> 01:18:03,630
small things that he does.
I mean, just randomly thinking

1493
01:18:03,630 --> 01:18:06,680
of me sends me an e-mail and
says I think you'd do a great

1494
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:09,280
job at getting a views out.
And I was like, yeah, thanks.

1495
01:18:09,280 --> 01:18:10,400
Thanks Don.
This is amazing.

1496
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:12,600
That's awesome.
That's great.

1497
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:14,320
Yeah.
So he's really, he's really

1498
01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:15,760
cool.
Yeah, yeah, it's great.

1499
01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:18,920
What was that?
You're very smart.

1500
01:18:19,880 --> 01:18:23,320
Very intelligent, absolutely
super kind.

1501
01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:24,480
Yeah, super kind.
Yeah.

1502
01:18:24,840 --> 01:18:27,360
It's understood as well.
Very misunderstood.

1503
01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:30,600
That's interesting.
I guess whenever I've listened

1504
01:18:30,600 --> 01:18:34,810
to him, he's in the context of.
An interviewer who's open to the

1505
01:18:34,810 --> 01:18:37,210
idea.
So I haven't heard, I guess I

1506
01:18:37,250 --> 01:18:40,330
haven't like come up against a
lot of the criticisms.

1507
01:18:40,330 --> 01:18:43,210
But I'm sure there are.
I mean it's an it's, you know

1508
01:18:43,210 --> 01:18:47,210
counter to what I also find kind
of meta interesting about that

1509
01:18:47,290 --> 01:18:51,650
about him to his career is like
he kind of found the most

1510
01:18:52,250 --> 01:18:55,330
potentially the most fit option
for his career in terms of like

1511
01:18:55,330 --> 01:18:58,650
going against the grain, you
know broadly that like everyone

1512
01:18:58,650 --> 01:19:00,570
was approaching the idea of the
concept this way.

1513
01:19:00,570 --> 01:19:03,620
The question this way.
Why not go over here where

1514
01:19:03,620 --> 01:19:06,940
there's a lot of space to, like,
grapple with these things and

1515
01:19:06,940 --> 01:19:10,180
maybe there's there's like some
something, something really

1516
01:19:10,180 --> 01:19:11,940
substantial here.
I think that there is, yeah.

1517
01:19:12,580 --> 01:19:15,940
I mean he has that way of
thinking because he he never

1518
01:19:15,940 --> 01:19:19,700
really wanted, he never really
took serious the idea that we

1519
01:19:19,700 --> 01:19:22,700
could understand everything with
the perception we currently

1520
01:19:22,700 --> 01:19:23,420
have.
Yeah.

1521
01:19:23,580 --> 01:19:25,940
And I think it's it's stuck with
him throughout life and I think

1522
01:19:25,940 --> 01:19:29,310
he wanted to figure out why he
would think but I don't think he

1523
01:19:29,310 --> 01:19:30,670
was ever prepared for the
outcome.

1524
01:19:30,670 --> 01:19:36,350
When his maths told him it's
zero, well goes to 0 apparently

1525
01:19:36,750 --> 01:19:40,590
he sat down and felt faint.
He felt he felt ill like it's

1526
01:19:40,590 --> 01:19:42,990
one of those feelings when you
know that gut trenching feeling

1527
01:19:42,990 --> 01:19:46,190
when you know someone's in
danger or someone's about to

1528
01:19:46,190 --> 01:19:48,870
break up with you.
It's sort of that deep sensation

1529
01:19:48,870 --> 01:19:51,750
that he felt.
He describes it very vividly and

1530
01:19:51,750 --> 01:19:54,910
I think just, I can imagine if
you are someone who understands

1531
01:19:54,910 --> 01:19:58,140
the maths and physics and you
get and you literally figure out

1532
01:19:58,140 --> 01:20:02,540
for yourself space-time is not
what you think it is, it's gotta

1533
01:20:02,540 --> 01:20:06,100
be pretty horrific.
Absolutely.

1534
01:20:06,180 --> 01:20:09,340
Have you gone down the rabbit
hole of Cuz usually when he

1535
01:20:09,340 --> 01:20:12,020
refers to space-time as Zoom, he
talks about Neema Arkani,

1536
01:20:12,020 --> 01:20:16,260
Hamed's amplitudehedron.
Yeah, that's something I have

1537
01:20:16,260 --> 01:20:19,780
to.
It's very confusing.

1538
01:20:19,820 --> 01:20:22,420
I mean it seems like a mapping.
It's Harvard lectures.

1539
01:20:22,420 --> 01:20:25,060
I think it's Harvard lectures
that ears out.

1540
01:20:25,620 --> 01:20:28,540
Online it's super difficult to
understand.

1541
01:20:28,540 --> 01:20:33,100
I've tried, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think you gotta give it a go

1542
01:20:33,180 --> 01:20:36,540
every few months.
Space repetition, and then

1543
01:20:36,540 --> 01:20:38,660
slowly figure it.
Yeah, I think that's good.

1544
01:20:38,780 --> 01:20:40,100
I agree.
It's sort of like you take what

1545
01:20:40,100 --> 01:20:43,500
you can handle, go to the edge
of your understanding, and when

1546
01:20:43,500 --> 01:20:48,020
it's just too incomprehensible,
you just kind of like, I return

1547
01:20:48,020 --> 01:20:50,580
back to it.
And that's the great thing about

1548
01:20:50,580 --> 01:20:52,380
doing that.
I love to hear, too.

1549
01:20:53,340 --> 01:20:56,760
Just to touch on one of my
favorite interviews that you did

1550
01:20:56,760 --> 01:20:58,160
with Lisa Feldman.
Barrett.

1551
01:20:59,040 --> 01:21:02,640
Yeah, fantastic.
I never, I had not come across

1552
01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:05,920
her before.
And lovely.

1553
01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:08,000
I mean, fantastic interview.
Everybody loved it.

1554
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:08,920
Yeah.
It's really cool.

1555
01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:12,680
She's so fun.
We actually, I'm scheduling a

1556
01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:16,240
lot around twos at some point
and because there's so many

1557
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:18,080
things we could discuss and we
just don't have the time a lot

1558
01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:21,880
of the times and she's.
I remember reading her book as

1559
01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:24,120
well, and I thought this woman
is so.

1560
01:21:24,730 --> 01:21:26,970
Intelligent.
It's this is such a great book

1561
01:21:27,530 --> 01:21:29,610
and I couldn't.
I had to have her and she was

1562
01:21:29,610 --> 01:21:31,370
one of the first people I
thought of putting onto the

1563
01:21:31,370 --> 01:21:35,170
show.
She might have been #1, but

1564
01:21:35,170 --> 01:21:38,690
Michael Graziano helped me out
during my dissertation.

1565
01:21:39,050 --> 01:21:43,090
So kind and he came to me.
I mean he replied instantly and

1566
01:21:43,090 --> 01:21:46,690
helped me out to formulate my
theory of consciousness and what

1567
01:21:46,690 --> 01:21:48,610
I was defending in my
dissertation and all the things

1568
01:21:48,610 --> 01:21:50,250
I was doing.
So I wanted my first guest to be

1569
01:21:50,250 --> 01:21:53,850
someone familiar to me and but
she was the 2nd.

1570
01:21:54,330 --> 01:21:56,890
She was my next option and right
there, I mean we had such a cool

1571
01:21:56,890 --> 01:21:58,290
chat.
She knows so much about

1572
01:21:58,610 --> 01:22:02,210
particularly the emotional brain
and hierarchical Bayesian

1573
01:22:02,210 --> 01:22:04,490
brains.
She knows the same thing Friston

1574
01:22:04,490 --> 01:22:07,330
works on, where you look at the
brain as sort of this Bayesian

1575
01:22:07,330 --> 01:22:10,450
like organ, functioning like a
statistical organ.

1576
01:22:11,130 --> 01:22:13,890
It's taking in prior information
and constantly reducing

1577
01:22:13,890 --> 01:22:16,770
posterior outcomes.
It's very much like that.

1578
01:22:18,290 --> 01:22:20,450
Then we also have to take into
account that we've always

1579
01:22:20,450 --> 01:22:22,610
thought that the brain is
similar to the current

1580
01:22:22,610 --> 01:22:25,880
zeitgeist.
So pumps back in the day, you

1581
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:28,800
think the pump like system, you
think that brain is sort of a

1582
01:22:28,800 --> 01:22:30,360
hydraulic system at some point,
right.

1583
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:34,120
And every time the science
changed or the industrial

1584
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:36,800
revolutions changed or the
electrical revolution changed,

1585
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:41,960
we slowly changed our theories.
So very difficult to claim you

1586
01:22:42,000 --> 01:22:45,720
think that.
So that's interesting, cuz we

1587
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:48,730
do.
And you can't blame people for

1588
01:22:48,730 --> 01:22:52,130
using like the most advanced
technology to explain the thing,

1589
01:22:52,130 --> 01:22:54,050
right?
And now of course it's

1590
01:22:54,370 --> 01:22:58,610
algorithmic, simulation,
computational.

1591
01:22:58,970 --> 01:23:02,250
So it makes me think, oh, well,
we're not even close because

1592
01:23:02,490 --> 01:23:04,650
we're just going to with the
next thing will be the next

1593
01:23:04,650 --> 01:23:06,410
thing and we're just going to
keep using that.

1594
01:23:07,530 --> 01:23:09,770
But what else can you do?
I mean, you can only do the best

1595
01:23:09,770 --> 01:23:11,330
you can with the tools at your
disposable.

1596
01:23:11,330 --> 01:23:15,050
So I don't blame people for
thinking that way either.

1597
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:20,200
That's the same reason why I say
that it's closer to the mind

1598
01:23:20,200 --> 01:23:23,000
body solution.
Never going to get there, but

1599
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:25,200
too wordy, that's too wordy.
Closer to yeah.

1600
01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:29,320
And who knows, maybe sometimes
we're taking a step further

1601
01:23:29,320 --> 01:23:32,720
away.
So difficult to tell.

1602
01:23:33,360 --> 01:23:35,600
Sure, sometimes we're going to.
Go.

1603
01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:38,520
We've had like, spirals of
revolutions where we thought

1604
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:40,200
something and then we've come
back to it and then we've

1605
01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:42,000
thought it again and we've come
back to it.

1606
01:23:43,590 --> 01:23:45,390
I mean, there was a time where
people considered consciousness

1607
01:23:45,390 --> 01:23:49,190
to be fundamental, and over time
it lost its edge.

1608
01:23:49,550 --> 01:23:52,990
Now it's back.
But panpsychists idealists who

1609
01:23:52,990 --> 01:23:56,030
think consciousness is the
primary reality.

1610
01:23:57,430 --> 01:23:59,750
So we're going to go through
these cycles quite a lot, I

1611
01:23:59,750 --> 01:24:01,910
think.
And I think it's cool.

1612
01:24:01,910 --> 01:24:04,870
I think it keeps the
conversation flowing, keeps it

1613
01:24:04,870 --> 01:24:07,110
going.
Hopefully we're alive long

1614
01:24:07,110 --> 01:24:10,230
enough to see some progress
being made, but neuroscience is

1615
01:24:10,230 --> 01:24:13,140
doing a lot.
But it still doesn't help us

1616
01:24:13,140 --> 01:24:16,260
figure out what reality is,
right?

1617
01:24:16,780 --> 01:24:19,580
Do you have a?
I know you're agnostic about

1618
01:24:19,580 --> 01:24:21,820
this stuff, but do you have?
I know you're at least open to

1619
01:24:21,820 --> 01:24:24,700
the idea, but panpsychism are
you?

1620
01:24:26,220 --> 01:24:28,740
You're open to more open than
perhaps most doctors, I would

1621
01:24:28,740 --> 01:24:31,100
assume.
But yeah, Do you think it's

1622
01:24:31,100 --> 01:24:32,500
wrong, do you think?
It's certainly people's

1623
01:24:32,500 --> 01:24:34,620
arguments, very convincing.
You've got someone like Philip

1624
01:24:34,620 --> 01:24:37,980
Cough who can can articulate an
argument very well and.

1625
01:24:39,460 --> 01:24:42,660
Very difficult to can't argue.
It was several points, but I do

1626
01:24:42,660 --> 01:24:45,020
have certain points where I
don't agree.

1627
01:24:45,620 --> 01:24:48,700
I don't.
I would be less likely to call

1628
01:24:48,700 --> 01:24:51,700
myself a panpsychist even though
I'm not.

1629
01:24:51,940 --> 01:24:55,620
Even though I say I'm agnostic.
I'm very much still firmly more

1630
01:24:55,620 --> 01:25:00,460
materialist slash physicalist
than I am idealist slash

1631
01:25:00,900 --> 01:25:06,380
panpsychist.
But I'm also not convinced by

1632
01:25:06,380 --> 01:25:10,130
the physicalist.
Materialist out argument either

1633
01:25:10,650 --> 01:25:12,770
yes.
Like that's this is this is

1634
01:25:12,770 --> 01:25:15,250
where I was talking about you
start losing your mind a little

1635
01:25:15,250 --> 01:25:18,250
bit because I mean I believe
this and I think this.

1636
01:25:18,250 --> 01:25:21,090
I think my phone is real and I
and I know it's real.

1637
01:25:21,090 --> 01:25:24,210
I see it all the time.
I feel then you think about what

1638
01:25:24,210 --> 01:25:29,730
is an atom in 99.9% empty space
And then I'm like, how is this

1639
01:25:29,730 --> 01:25:32,730
even possible right.
It's not really touching the

1640
01:25:32,730 --> 01:25:35,690
phone, but I am touching the
phone, yeah.

1641
01:25:36,620 --> 01:25:37,780
So it's a weird world we live
in.

1642
01:25:38,340 --> 01:25:42,500
It's a strange universe.
And I mean, I said this, I mean,

1643
01:25:42,500 --> 01:25:44,620
you spoke about Tony.
There's talk.

1644
01:25:44,620 --> 01:25:48,540
And I mean, I call ourselves a
conscious conglomerate of cells

1645
01:25:49,620 --> 01:25:53,260
assembled by atoms, and you
factored by molecules designed

1646
01:25:53,260 --> 01:25:57,860
by DNA, orged by fusion via
Stella supernovae.

1647
01:25:58,260 --> 01:26:01,380
I mean, this is a crazy story.
I've got a couple lines there as

1648
01:26:01,380 --> 01:26:02,220
well.
I mean, this was part of my

1649
01:26:02,220 --> 01:26:04,220
dissertation organized by
organelles.

1650
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:06,560
We've had this cool alliteration
of lines.

1651
01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:12,120
Story of how we were made is so
much more complicated than any

1652
01:26:12,120 --> 01:26:16,520
story we've ever told so far.
I mean when you think about

1653
01:26:16,520 --> 01:26:18,680
every religious text and the
story of how we were made, I

1654
01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:24,480
mean 6000 years or boomba people
in Congo, I mean we boomba

1655
01:26:24,480 --> 01:26:27,160
splits out the earth.
I mean we've got so many

1656
01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:29,480
different stories.
I mean Krishna.

1657
01:26:30,040 --> 01:26:32,680
My own cultural stories, my
religious stories.

1658
01:26:33,160 --> 01:26:36,040
Then you think about the actual
one that science has told us.

1659
01:26:36,800 --> 01:26:41,360
I mean stars are to die in order
for us in order for atoms to

1660
01:26:41,360 --> 01:26:45,040
forge into our anti hydrogen,
hydrogen atoms that polite to

1661
01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:48,440
form helium, brillium, carbon,
oxygen, everything nitrogen and

1662
01:26:48,440 --> 01:26:51,480
it just goes on and slowly they
all come back together at some

1663
01:26:51,480 --> 01:26:55,240
point and then you find these
single celled organisms.

1664
01:26:55,240 --> 01:27:00,480
I mean 4.8 billion years earth.
13.8 billion year light years

1665
01:27:00,560 --> 01:27:02,920
across universe.
I mean, it's quite crazy.

1666
01:27:03,680 --> 01:27:06,360
It's an incredible story.
It is, yeah.

1667
01:27:06,760 --> 01:27:10,360
And it's so convincing.
And yet we don't know what dark

1668
01:27:10,360 --> 01:27:12,840
matter is.
We don't know what 99% off this

1669
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:16,560
amazing story is.
So it's amazing and still so

1670
01:27:16,560 --> 01:27:20,240
incomplete.
In fact, it's just incomplete.

1671
01:27:20,240 --> 01:27:23,320
It's not even the story is so,
probably so untrue.

1672
01:27:24,430 --> 01:27:26,710
And but yet, to me, it is the
story I go with.

1673
01:27:26,950 --> 01:27:28,710
It is the story I'm most
convinced by.

1674
01:27:29,230 --> 01:27:32,510
And if I give a lecture on what
is reality, it's the story I

1675
01:27:32,510 --> 01:27:36,070
will tell, yeah.
So yeah, if you had to give put

1676
01:27:36,070 --> 01:27:38,750
me in a box, I would still be
very much physicalist.

1677
01:27:39,510 --> 01:27:44,150
It was very counterintuitive
intuitions about my own

1678
01:27:44,510 --> 01:27:47,910
intuition, sure, always open to
everybody.

1679
01:27:49,070 --> 01:27:52,030
It's very, very agnostic.
I have absolutely.

1680
01:27:52,030 --> 01:27:54,160
No.
I think that's the way to be.

1681
01:27:54,160 --> 01:27:59,200
Why be stuck with one model when
you, you know, you have to, you

1682
01:27:59,200 --> 01:28:03,040
have to accept things at a
certain point to live your life,

1683
01:28:03,040 --> 01:28:05,680
you know, to get by and do the
things you want to do.

1684
01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:09,240
But then, yeah, just keep your
mind open and keep exploring

1685
01:28:09,240 --> 01:28:12,880
while we can.
Can I ask which which guest of

1686
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:14,720
yours has been the most
surprising?

1687
01:28:16,360 --> 01:28:21,440
That's a very good question.
Well, I've had some guests to.

1688
01:28:22,280 --> 01:28:26,040
I mean, I've been idols of mine.
I mean, I've loved neuroscience

1689
01:28:26,040 --> 01:28:29,480
for such a long time, like
astrophysics, archaeology.

1690
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:31,760
I mean medicine.
Mostly because I wanted to

1691
01:28:31,760 --> 01:28:37,000
somehow go into some sort of a
neuro psychological route.

1692
01:28:37,440 --> 01:28:40,600
And when I was doing that, I
mean, I had all these idols.

1693
01:28:40,600 --> 01:28:45,880
Lisa was one of them.
Noam Chomsky, I've been such a

1694
01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:50,040
huge fan.
Of course it was me that was.

1695
01:28:51,770 --> 01:28:54,130
It's fast.
Like I'm interviewing our God,

1696
01:28:55,170 --> 01:28:55,770
Yeah.
It's a legend.

1697
01:28:55,770 --> 01:28:57,610
I mean, yeah.
This is a living legend.

1698
01:28:57,610 --> 01:29:00,770
He's 93 when I spoke to him, I
have another interview I've just

1699
01:29:00,770 --> 01:29:02,170
done with him that's gonna come
out soon.

1700
01:29:02,170 --> 01:29:04,050
He'll probably be 94 when it's
out.

1701
01:29:04,250 --> 01:29:06,970
I don't know.
It's it's surreal to know this

1702
01:29:06,970 --> 01:29:13,210
guy is 93 and still cognitively
engages with me as an equal.

1703
01:29:13,610 --> 01:29:16,410
I mean, it's phenomenal.
It's, it's.

1704
01:29:17,450 --> 01:29:20,090
As someone who's treats
geriatric patients all the time,

1705
01:29:20,130 --> 01:29:23,970
he has such a sharp mind.
It's incredible because it shows

1706
01:29:23,970 --> 01:29:26,930
how well he's done over the
years to consistently keep his

1707
01:29:26,930 --> 01:29:31,370
mind up to date and act.
And that's what happens when you

1708
01:29:31,370 --> 01:29:34,930
read and learn as much as you do
as he's done over the years.

1709
01:29:35,570 --> 01:29:36,930
I mean, it's so easy to talk to
him.

1710
01:29:36,930 --> 01:29:40,130
Sure.
So I think he surprised me the

1711
01:29:40,130 --> 01:29:43,530
most, for sure.
I think it would be difficult,

1712
01:29:44,090 --> 01:29:45,770
but it wasn't.
This flowed.

1713
01:29:45,770 --> 01:29:48,650
It was I would say the only
thing that was was obviously, I

1714
01:29:48,650 --> 01:29:51,770
mean now I'm getting a little
older so hearing you have to

1715
01:29:51,770 --> 01:29:54,890
sort of you have to speak a
little louder into the mic.

1716
01:29:55,250 --> 01:29:57,290
That makes sense.
Yeah.

1717
01:29:58,450 --> 01:30:00,850
Yeah, yeah.
But I mean if I thought more.

1718
01:30:00,850 --> 01:30:03,210
Patricia Churchill was someone I
really enjoyed interviewing as

1719
01:30:03,210 --> 01:30:07,650
well, because when I was doing
my dissertation, I came across

1720
01:30:07,650 --> 01:30:12,340
eliminative materialism and.
Her husband, Paul Churchill, is

1721
01:30:12,340 --> 01:30:15,100
someone also really admire, so
the two of them are very cool

1722
01:30:15,940 --> 01:30:18,180
people who I've also looked up
to for a while.

1723
01:30:19,460 --> 01:30:25,140
There's also Rebecca Goldstein.
I mean, she's really cool.

1724
01:30:25,740 --> 01:30:28,580
Steven Pinker's wife.
I mean, the two of them are

1725
01:30:28,580 --> 01:30:30,980
living legends.
Both of them.

1726
01:30:30,980 --> 01:30:33,420
I mean, I'm going to chat to
Pinker at some point as well,

1727
01:30:33,860 --> 01:30:36,460
but it was so cool to have her
as well because I'm a huge fan

1728
01:30:36,460 --> 01:30:39,220
of the both of them, separately
and together as a couple.

1729
01:30:39,220 --> 01:30:42,920
I think they're pretty awesome.
And a dynamic duo.

1730
01:30:43,840 --> 01:30:45,040
Yeah, I mean, there's been so
many.

1731
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:46,960
There's just been too many of
them.

1732
01:30:48,000 --> 01:30:49,600
And it's growing.
I mean, I've got a lot lined up

1733
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:51,480
as well, so more's gonna come
out.

1734
01:30:52,800 --> 01:30:54,920
But I've taken a break up.
It's just on vacation.

1735
01:30:54,920 --> 01:30:57,720
So if anyone's wondering why
I've been taking a little bit of

1736
01:30:57,720 --> 01:30:59,760
a Yeah, you deserve it, man.
Where'd you go?

1737
01:31:00,800 --> 01:31:02,960
Now I just went on holiday back
home to the city of Durban,

1738
01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:06,600
where my family's from, and
yeah, just relaxed for a bit.

1739
01:31:07,510 --> 01:31:09,990
It wasn't like a full on trip
overseas or anything.

1740
01:31:09,990 --> 01:31:11,830
It was just, you know, to see
the family.

1741
01:31:12,310 --> 01:31:15,230
Yeah, that's that's great.
That's lovely.

1742
01:31:15,630 --> 01:31:17,990
And what do you have?
I mean what do you have in store

1743
01:31:17,990 --> 01:31:20,390
for the next few months next
year for the channel?

1744
01:31:20,390 --> 01:31:22,350
Like what kind of how often do
you come out?

1745
01:31:22,630 --> 01:31:25,670
Like what's your plan for?
It used to be around 2 weeks

1746
01:31:25,670 --> 01:31:30,470
every two weeks, but because of
I mentioned to you while we

1747
01:31:30,470 --> 01:31:32,510
chatted before coming on the
show, I mean, there's so much

1748
01:31:32,510 --> 01:31:35,710
political race in South Africa
at the moment.

1749
01:31:37,400 --> 01:31:41,080
They randomly cut the power.
You cannot prepare yourself.

1750
01:31:41,480 --> 01:31:44,320
So we could be chatting right
now and they could change the

1751
01:31:44,320 --> 01:31:45,760
stage of what's called low
chatting.

1752
01:31:46,280 --> 01:31:48,560
That means they'll switch off
the electricity in the entire

1753
01:31:48,560 --> 01:31:51,520
country at a random moment at
any point of the day.

1754
01:31:52,120 --> 01:31:54,720
And that's making it very
difficult for me to to schedule

1755
01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:56,920
any interviews with guests
overseas because obviously I

1756
01:31:56,920 --> 01:31:59,960
don't want to waste their time.
And when the day comes, because

1757
01:31:59,960 --> 01:32:02,320
this has happened about five
times already, we've had to

1758
01:32:02,320 --> 01:32:04,920
cancel an interview.
It's very embarrassing because.

1759
01:32:05,840 --> 01:32:08,240
You, you, you've got this, this
guest you've been looking up to

1760
01:32:08,240 --> 01:32:11,360
your entire life and you finally
have them and then they they

1761
01:32:11,360 --> 01:32:14,360
just leave the fingertips of
your part of your hand and

1762
01:32:14,360 --> 01:32:17,480
you're like, no, I almost
interviewed.

1763
01:32:17,480 --> 01:32:21,400
So and so I can't believe.
I mean that happened to no man

1764
01:32:21,400 --> 01:32:22,760
the first time.
So no man.

1765
01:32:22,760 --> 01:32:24,880
I scheduled an interview.
No shitting hit.

1766
01:32:25,080 --> 01:32:27,520
No man is so generous because he
obviously knows a lot about

1767
01:32:27,520 --> 01:32:29,640
South African politics.
He said don't worry, I

1768
01:32:29,640 --> 01:32:31,600
completely understand.
I know exactly what's going on.

1769
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:35,820
And then we just rescheduled so.
I mean, we've had our #2, so I

1770
01:32:35,820 --> 01:32:37,940
mean Noam, you can expect Noam
Chomsky one more time.

1771
01:32:37,980 --> 01:32:39,540
You can expect Donald Hoffman
again.

1772
01:32:40,820 --> 01:32:43,380
All the guests I've had on you
can possibly expect back.

1773
01:32:44,060 --> 01:32:45,700
I'm gonna try and change the
format a little.

1774
01:32:45,700 --> 01:32:49,340
At some point I'm gonna try and
just update it perhaps.

1775
01:32:49,340 --> 01:32:50,820
I mean, I've been doing
everything on my own at this

1776
01:32:50,820 --> 01:32:52,580
point.
It's my hobby host, something

1777
01:32:52,580 --> 01:32:56,700
I've been riding and I think I
need to get teamed together

1778
01:32:56,700 --> 01:32:58,540
because it is a bit
overwhelming.

1779
01:32:59,260 --> 01:33:01,060
It does.
It does get a bit hard.

1780
01:33:01,580 --> 01:33:03,620
I think I need to at some point
invest more.

1781
01:33:03,990 --> 01:33:07,150
Energy and time into building
this because I can tell that

1782
01:33:07,150 --> 01:33:11,750
there is an audience that wants
to engage and want this content,

1783
01:33:11,750 --> 01:33:13,590
and I think I'm going to do my
best to provide it.

1784
01:33:13,710 --> 01:33:17,270
I love it.
I live for it at this point.

1785
01:33:17,670 --> 01:33:21,750
It is my favorite thing to do.
When I talk to some of these

1786
01:33:21,750 --> 01:33:23,950
years, I feel like I'm talking
to childhood heroes.

1787
01:33:23,950 --> 01:33:27,510
Some of them are current active
heroes and it's real.

1788
01:33:27,510 --> 01:33:31,790
It's actually pretty cool to
speak to them as a peer.

1789
01:33:33,510 --> 01:33:35,590
But I remember watching Noam
Chomsky as a child, like,

1790
01:33:35,590 --> 01:33:38,390
legitimately a baby.
I feel like I was a year old

1791
01:33:39,470 --> 01:33:43,510
watching an old, like huge, you
know, the box TV sets, just

1792
01:33:43,510 --> 01:33:47,430
watching him before it starts to
cut to that black and what fuzz.

1793
01:33:47,430 --> 01:33:54,670
I remember he had this one chat
with Michelle Foucault, just was

1794
01:33:54,670 --> 01:33:57,790
a sort of debate.
He had one that it was televised

1795
01:33:57,790 --> 01:33:59,990
here in South Africa.
This was the coolest thing I've

1796
01:33:59,990 --> 01:34:02,560
ever seen.
Luko versus Chomsky.

1797
01:34:02,560 --> 01:34:06,760
Just having a long debate, yeah.
And they both understand each

1798
01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:09,400
other, one speaking French, the
other one speaking English.

1799
01:34:09,400 --> 01:34:10,920
And there's no need for a
translator.

1800
01:34:10,920 --> 01:34:13,280
They're just.
I'm watching the subtitles, just

1801
01:34:13,280 --> 01:34:14,960
thinking, how are these guys so
intelligent?

1802
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:17,760
This is Yeah, that's like an
upper.

1803
01:34:17,800 --> 01:34:19,320
Upper.
That's 23.

1804
01:34:19,720 --> 01:34:22,600
It's crazy.
It's so cool and you get to talk

1805
01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:25,560
to them and engage with them in
this modern world.

1806
01:34:25,560 --> 01:34:27,280
It's amazing.
Yeah.

1807
01:34:27,280 --> 01:34:28,680
No, it is.
It fits.

1808
01:34:29,510 --> 01:34:31,950
It's so epic, I can only
describe it as awesome.

1809
01:34:31,950 --> 01:34:34,190
It's just epic.
Yeah.

1810
01:34:34,230 --> 01:34:36,510
Very fortunate, Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, even chatting to

1811
01:34:36,510 --> 01:34:39,030
you right now, I mean, this is,
look, the content that you've

1812
01:34:39,030 --> 01:34:40,910
curated and created at this
point.

1813
01:34:40,910 --> 01:34:43,190
I mean, one of your videos has
over 300,000 views.

1814
01:34:43,190 --> 01:34:45,310
That's pretty cool.
Yeah.

1815
01:34:45,350 --> 01:34:49,030
The 4th dimension.
Yeah, that's thank you.

1816
01:34:49,030 --> 01:34:52,750
Yeah, it does feel good that
something kind of clicked.

1817
01:34:52,790 --> 01:34:55,590
I guess you can never know what
it's a funny thing is, you don't

1818
01:34:55,590 --> 01:34:59,530
know what's gonna work.
That's the nice thing we're

1819
01:34:59,610 --> 01:35:02,410
having such a diverse and
different type of podcast is

1820
01:35:02,410 --> 01:35:04,970
that you can experiment, I mean,
your YouTube channel to actually

1821
01:35:04,970 --> 01:35:06,890
do that, which is pretty cool,
yeah.

1822
01:35:07,410 --> 01:35:10,690
Topic and go with it, give some
what they want.

1823
01:35:10,690 --> 01:35:13,690
And I mean, I mean, that's the
beauty behind this, these

1824
01:35:13,690 --> 01:35:18,330
platforms is we get to showcase
content that we love and that

1825
01:35:18,330 --> 01:35:20,930
hopefully other people love
because clearly 300,000 views

1826
01:35:20,930 --> 01:35:24,090
later, thousands of people have
to have loved it too.

1827
01:35:24,490 --> 01:35:26,330
Yeah, let's feel good.
That's cool.

1828
01:35:26,450 --> 01:35:29,670
Yeah, it's it's hard to wrap
your head around, just like

1829
01:35:29,670 --> 01:35:31,910
reality.
That is a lot.

1830
01:35:33,150 --> 01:35:37,870
It is a lot if you could.
I mean talking about tesseracts

1831
01:35:37,870 --> 01:35:40,070
in 1/4 dimension, I mean it is
something people want.

1832
01:35:40,070 --> 01:35:42,910
I mean, I mean it's it's such a
cool topic.

1833
01:35:42,910 --> 01:35:44,750
I mean, it's one of those things
you want to hear about.

1834
01:35:44,750 --> 01:35:46,150
I mean it is.
A cool try.

1835
01:35:46,150 --> 01:35:47,710
So many people are into it
nowadays.

1836
01:35:48,150 --> 01:35:50,390
Yeah, me too.
I mean, I did that one because I

1837
01:35:50,390 --> 01:35:51,950
wanted to figure it out for
myself.

1838
01:35:51,990 --> 01:35:56,190
I didn't get it.
And I just kept on going back to

1839
01:35:56,190 --> 01:35:59,320
it.
And I think it only took me 3 or

1840
01:35:59,320 --> 01:36:02,160
4 days to put that together from
Super Nuts.

1841
01:36:02,520 --> 01:36:05,600
Yeah, it wasn't too long.
I mean, I was like early on, I

1842
01:36:05,600 --> 01:36:09,560
was like, you know, really
hitting it hard and trying to

1843
01:36:09,560 --> 01:36:13,520
pump those out quickly.
But so that was cool that it,

1844
01:36:13,600 --> 01:36:17,160
you know, just kind of resonated
with some folks.

1845
01:36:17,200 --> 01:36:21,440
If you could talk to yourself at
the beginning of you making the

1846
01:36:21,440 --> 01:36:24,680
podcast, you know, go back.
What a year or so.

1847
01:36:24,680 --> 01:36:28,310
I mean, if you give yourself one
piece of advice, what would it

1848
01:36:28,710 --> 01:36:30,830
be?
Take your time.

1849
01:36:31,110 --> 01:36:34,710
Don't edit it too much, which at
the beginning I did and then I

1850
01:36:34,710 --> 01:36:37,030
stopped.
Now it's very much unfiltered.

1851
01:36:37,030 --> 01:36:40,870
It's almost just raw.
I just cut the beginning, cut

1852
01:36:40,870 --> 01:36:43,750
the end, and upload it.
As it is, I've learned to be

1853
01:36:43,750 --> 01:36:46,590
less harsh on myself, just if I
don't like the way I've

1854
01:36:46,590 --> 01:36:48,990
responded.
If I got too much, I don't care.

1855
01:36:51,030 --> 01:36:52,710
It's more about getting their
views out there.

1856
01:36:52,870 --> 01:36:55,590
It's more about the guests at
this point, but my.

1857
01:36:56,000 --> 01:37:01,200
Best advice would be take your
time, don't be too greedy for

1858
01:37:01,200 --> 01:37:05,600
views or likes.
It'll grow, start low, go slow

1859
01:37:06,360 --> 01:37:09,080
and it'll flow.
I guess I wanna keep the RAM and

1860
01:37:09,080 --> 01:37:10,920
going.
Love it.

1861
01:37:11,000 --> 01:37:14,280
Yeah.
But I mean, you're talking about

1862
01:37:14,280 --> 01:37:16,240
a year ago.
So what had happened was I

1863
01:37:16,280 --> 01:37:19,960
uploaded 4 within I think a
month or two, sure.

1864
01:37:20,280 --> 01:37:24,130
And then I completely quit.
And the first four were, I think

1865
01:37:24,130 --> 01:37:29,610
it was Michael Graziano, Lisa
Beltman and Nicholas Humphrey

1866
01:37:29,610 --> 01:37:33,490
and Keith Frankish.
And then I stopped for months.

1867
01:37:33,490 --> 01:37:36,250
So I think I stopped for about 6
to 8 months.

1868
01:37:36,850 --> 01:37:38,450
I gave up on the broadcast.
What?

1869
01:37:38,450 --> 01:37:40,770
Because of that impatience, I
thought, is this actually gonna

1870
01:37:40,810 --> 01:37:43,490
go, God, what am I gonna do?
I wanna do this.

1871
01:37:43,610 --> 01:37:47,290
And then I came across.
I actually sent Kurt a message

1872
01:37:47,290 --> 01:37:50,000
about this.
I came across Kurt's channel and

1873
01:37:50,000 --> 01:37:52,240
I remember thinking, this is
exactly what I want to talk

1874
01:37:52,240 --> 01:37:55,800
about and do, and he seems to be
growing this very well.

1875
01:37:56,440 --> 01:38:00,840
I might as well just continue.
And then so he actually inspired

1876
01:38:00,840 --> 01:38:02,720
me to continue doing it.
And then we've chatted since

1877
01:38:02,760 --> 01:38:04,560
then.
And he even made a video,

1878
01:38:04,560 --> 01:38:06,400
remember where he mentioned me
in his podcast?

1879
01:38:07,760 --> 01:38:10,200
He said that this is a very.
So he made a video about

1880
01:38:10,240 --> 01:38:12,600
underrated podcasts and
retention.

1881
01:38:12,600 --> 01:38:13,680
Yeah, I think that's how I found
it.

1882
01:38:14,420 --> 01:38:15,820
OK, great.
I'm pretty sure.

1883
01:38:15,820 --> 01:38:17,900
Yeah, I'm pretty sure.
That's how I came out.

1884
01:38:17,940 --> 01:38:19,740
I remember.
The day you posted that, I got a

1885
01:38:19,740 --> 01:38:22,060
lot of new subscribers and a lot
of engaging subscribers.

1886
01:38:22,060 --> 01:38:24,740
It wasn't just subscribers.
If they subscribe and don't

1887
01:38:24,740 --> 01:38:27,340
interact, I was getting
engagement.

1888
01:38:27,340 --> 01:38:31,100
You know those real comments
that people arguing, having full

1889
01:38:31,100 --> 01:38:34,140
on debates in the commentation.
I started loving that I was like

1890
01:38:34,140 --> 01:38:36,540
this is great.
So glad I continued, because

1891
01:38:36,540 --> 01:38:40,260
this is exactly what I wanted to
tell the people not talk about

1892
01:38:40,260 --> 01:38:43,020
me, but rather talk about the
theories.

1893
01:38:43,440 --> 01:38:46,200
I'm just that I'm allowing these
people to portray and discuss.

1894
01:38:46,760 --> 01:38:48,840
So the goal is for them to
portray the.

1895
01:38:49,640 --> 01:38:54,320
So, yeah, by the way, Nicholas
Humphrey is one of the guests

1896
01:38:54,320 --> 01:38:56,720
I've had on the show.
He's someone I've read a lot of

1897
01:38:56,720 --> 01:38:58,480
his books.
I mean, one of his heroes were,

1898
01:38:58,520 --> 01:39:03,120
I mean, Richard Dawkins, he
really loved these people that I

1899
01:39:03,120 --> 01:39:05,920
loved growing up.
And he was one of those people

1900
01:39:05,920 --> 01:39:09,560
because he was part of that,
this group of biologists who

1901
01:39:09,960 --> 01:39:12,080
sort of combined biology with
psychology.

1902
01:39:12,820 --> 01:39:15,300
And so he was also someone who I
really considered an idol.

1903
01:39:15,300 --> 01:39:17,060
I have so many of his books on
my shelf.

1904
01:39:17,060 --> 01:39:18,460
Like, I would say, I swear about
10.

1905
01:39:18,980 --> 01:39:20,940
Just ten different titles, 10
different books.

1906
01:39:21,620 --> 01:39:24,380
And no, I've got about 15 to 20
books, I think.

1907
01:39:24,380 --> 01:39:27,460
Wow.
Yeah, I mean, I'm chatting to

1908
01:39:27,460 --> 01:39:28,980
these people.
I mean Pinker, Steven Pinker, if

1909
01:39:28,980 --> 01:39:31,300
we will, when we have our chat,
it'll be like me chatting to

1910
01:39:31,300 --> 01:39:33,860
another hero.
I've got about also about 10

1911
01:39:33,860 --> 01:39:37,100
plus that picker's.
Amazing too.

1912
01:39:37,100 --> 01:39:41,500
So yeah, I mean advice.
Just take your time and enjoy

1913
01:39:41,500 --> 01:39:43,550
the process.
And I am at this point.

1914
01:39:43,550 --> 01:39:46,550
I mean, I don't.
I don't rush if I don't post in

1915
01:39:46,550 --> 01:39:47,710
a month.
I mean, I haven't posted this

1916
01:39:47,710 --> 01:39:50,350
entire month and I'm okay.
I'm not really that stressed.

1917
01:39:50,430 --> 01:39:52,550
I've got videos waiting,
uploaded.

1918
01:39:52,750 --> 01:39:55,630
I'm not really panicking, sure.
That's a great.

1919
01:39:55,630 --> 01:39:58,870
I think I am worried about the
viewers and the fact that they

1920
01:39:58,870 --> 01:40:01,990
might be waiting for the next
video and I take that into

1921
01:40:01,990 --> 01:40:04,230
consideration.
So I will post it based on that.

1922
01:40:04,910 --> 01:40:07,270
But pressure to post is no
longer there.

1923
01:40:07,390 --> 01:40:10,550
But I think if you can afford
getting a team to you.

1924
01:40:12,150 --> 01:40:16,110
That you probably should take
off some of that stress, cuz

1925
01:40:16,110 --> 01:40:19,710
it's a lot of work.
Editing, post production, pre

1926
01:40:19,710 --> 01:40:23,430
production preparation, getting
a logo, getting the podcast

1927
01:40:23,430 --> 01:40:25,950
together, trying to find a song,
a theme, everything.

1928
01:40:25,950 --> 01:40:27,590
It's such a.
It's so much.

1929
01:40:27,990 --> 01:40:30,110
Yeah, I get it.
Yeah, you're talking to Pitcher

1930
01:40:30,110 --> 01:40:33,830
Little Choir over here.
I mean, what would you give me?

1931
01:40:34,110 --> 01:40:36,350
What's that you had to give me?
Advice?

1932
01:40:36,350 --> 01:40:38,190
What would you give me?
Make my pod.

1933
01:40:39,070 --> 01:40:43,260
You advice now?
Yeah, My goodness, you're a

1934
01:40:43,260 --> 01:40:45,340
content creator, Carlos.
I mean, at this point, you've

1935
01:40:45,340 --> 01:40:48,580
done extraordinary work.
You can give me advice.

1936
01:40:48,580 --> 01:40:50,900
That's.
What's so kind to you to say I

1937
01:40:50,900 --> 01:40:54,460
think very highly of your work
too, huh?

1938
01:40:54,660 --> 01:40:56,220
I have to think about.
I don't have anything off the

1939
01:40:56,220 --> 01:41:02,020
top of my head, honestly.
I mean if I had HM.

1940
01:41:03,810 --> 01:41:07,210
No, I have nothing.
If I think, I promise if I think

1941
01:41:07,210 --> 01:41:09,010
of anything, I will e-mail you.
I promise.

1942
01:41:09,290 --> 01:41:11,850
I promise.
If anything comes to mind, yeah

1943
01:41:12,010 --> 01:41:14,170
please do.
The main goal is to grow.

1944
01:41:14,610 --> 01:41:17,410
We can't.
I love when people give me

1945
01:41:17,410 --> 01:41:19,690
constructive feedback, cuz I
mean there are times we have

1946
01:41:19,690 --> 01:41:23,290
noticed things that you notice,
things you do, you sort of you

1947
01:41:23,290 --> 01:41:28,410
might out loud go mm mm mm.
That's fine.

1948
01:41:28,530 --> 01:41:31,450
I think that's okay fine until
you find like 5 comments in the

1949
01:41:31,450 --> 01:41:33,170
video where they're like, why
does this?

1950
01:41:33,670 --> 01:41:36,470
Why does the host keep hooming?
And then I'm like just you need

1951
01:41:36,470 --> 01:41:37,870
to relax.
It's the conversation.

1952
01:41:38,510 --> 01:41:41,590
Yeah, calm down.
Yeah, yeah, it's totally fine.

1953
01:41:41,590 --> 01:41:44,230
It's totally calm down and just
enjoy the content.

1954
01:41:44,750 --> 01:41:48,990
Not perfect, neither are my
guests and they don't aim to be

1955
01:41:48,990 --> 01:41:51,670
either.
So a lot of my effort actually

1956
01:41:51,670 --> 01:41:55,630
goes into making sure that the
guest is taken care of, cuz the

1957
01:41:55,630 --> 01:41:57,910
last thing I want is for them to
say something politically

1958
01:41:57,910 --> 01:42:01,510
incorrect that might get them
into trouble, which I think a

1959
01:42:01,510 --> 01:42:03,670
lot of people try to get for
clickbait.

1960
01:42:03,750 --> 01:42:06,630
And I think that's something my
guests have noticed and that's

1961
01:42:06,630 --> 01:42:09,470
why they want to come back cuz
you make them feel comfortable,

1962
01:42:09,470 --> 01:42:13,390
which you've done so very, very
well so far and I'm sure you'll

1963
01:42:13,390 --> 01:42:16,190
continue to.
We're going off the rails, baby.

1964
01:42:16,750 --> 01:42:20,750
We're taking this to Crazy town.
Not a guest note, but I think

1965
01:42:20,750 --> 01:42:23,230
one of the things he told me at
the end was, I mean where he

1966
01:42:23,230 --> 01:42:25,470
comes from.
It's good to actually go in

1967
01:42:25,470 --> 01:42:27,670
detail and dissect me.
He wants me to.

1968
01:42:28,150 --> 01:42:30,680
So for round two, he actually
wants me to play devil's

1969
01:42:30,680 --> 01:42:32,000
advocate as much as I possibly
can.

1970
01:42:32,000 --> 01:42:36,640
And I said OK, I can do that.
Yeah, I choose the peaceful art.

1971
01:42:37,040 --> 01:42:39,320
Yeah, yeah.
If you want the devil, we can,

1972
01:42:39,320 --> 01:42:40,280
we can bring him out.
Yeah.

1973
01:42:41,560 --> 01:42:44,160
I mean, it's always good to make
sure the guest feels

1974
01:42:44,160 --> 01:42:46,560
comfortable.
So my advice would be take your

1975
01:42:46,560 --> 01:42:49,560
time, go slow and make sure the
guest is always comfortable.

1976
01:42:50,480 --> 01:42:52,280
I mean in this type of podcast
setting.

1977
01:42:52,680 --> 01:42:54,080
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, absolutely.

1978
01:42:54,200 --> 01:42:56,480
And I think that's I was trying
to do.

1979
01:42:56,480 --> 01:42:58,640
So I'm glad that it came
through.

1980
01:42:59,070 --> 01:43:02,910
So if we can and also just to
like just reminded me something

1981
01:43:02,910 --> 01:43:06,310
about I'm so glad you didn't you
came back and that you didn't

1982
01:43:06,310 --> 01:43:09,550
abandon the channel.
I mean, yeah, because I get it.

1983
01:43:09,550 --> 01:43:12,910
I mean it's probably so many
creators go through the same

1984
01:43:12,910 --> 01:43:15,950
thing where you try and you put
all of yourself into the work

1985
01:43:16,350 --> 01:43:20,350
and you see nobody watching it
and you're like, what is this?

1986
01:43:20,350 --> 01:43:24,790
But it was I, Joseph Campbell
said something to the degree of

1987
01:43:24,790 --> 01:43:27,410
like.
When you found your passion, you

1988
01:43:27,410 --> 01:43:29,450
find the thing that you want to
do.

1989
01:43:30,930 --> 01:43:35,930
He's like be willing to suffer
for about a decade at least in

1990
01:43:35,930 --> 01:43:37,810
pursuit of it.
Like if you're not willing to

1991
01:43:37,810 --> 01:43:41,170
give yourself over, that's a lot
of time.

1992
01:43:41,250 --> 01:43:43,450
I mean, obviously not everyone
has the resources, the time.

1993
01:43:43,490 --> 01:43:47,090
You know, you have to make these
trade-offs for your passion

1994
01:43:47,090 --> 01:43:49,730
sometimes with the demands of
life and the things that come at

1995
01:43:49,730 --> 01:43:50,330
you.
But.

1996
01:43:51,510 --> 01:43:55,990
On the side, if you just keep on
going and you love the process,

1997
01:43:55,990 --> 01:43:59,230
you know, like you were
mentioning before all the things

1998
01:43:59,230 --> 01:44:03,470
that it takes to do this well.
And I was talking to somebody

1999
01:44:03,510 --> 01:44:05,750
last night about this like a
content creator.

2000
01:44:05,750 --> 01:44:10,190
And he said too, like you know,
as soon as you can is you can

2001
01:44:10,190 --> 01:44:13,310
offload this stuff.
Certain parts of this you have

2002
01:44:13,310 --> 01:44:16,630
to because you know you need to
be able to focus your time and

2003
01:44:16,630 --> 01:44:19,860
attention on other stuff.
But I I mean, I'm so curious.

2004
01:44:19,900 --> 01:44:25,500
I like learning all these things
like and I I would like, I think

2005
01:44:25,500 --> 01:44:27,100
it's interesting.
It's like, let's go into it,

2006
01:44:27,100 --> 01:44:31,780
right.
Maybe not now editing stuff as

2007
01:44:31,780 --> 01:44:34,020
precisely after a while you're
kind of like, God, I wish this

2008
01:44:34,020 --> 01:44:36,460
was over.
But initially getting in there

2009
01:44:36,460 --> 01:44:39,660
in the project, like I get into
final cut and I'm moving stuff

2010
01:44:39,660 --> 01:44:43,900
around, I get into flow.
I lose hours of time flow right

2011
01:44:43,900 --> 01:44:45,830
by.
And it's like, that's why.

2012
01:44:45,950 --> 01:44:49,550
That's one of the reasons why I
got into this is to lose

2013
01:44:49,550 --> 01:44:52,590
yourself in the process.
So, and I completely agree.

2014
01:44:52,590 --> 01:44:55,430
I mean, I also came back because
that is something I missed

2015
01:44:55,430 --> 01:44:57,070
actually at the point I was
thinking about it.

2016
01:44:57,070 --> 01:45:00,270
I mean, I loved doing it.
And why am I letting the fact

2017
01:45:00,270 --> 01:45:02,750
that people aren't enjoying it
as much as I thought they would

2018
01:45:03,470 --> 01:45:05,150
affect the fact that I love
doing it.

2019
01:45:05,150 --> 01:45:08,190
So I just came back because I
enjoyed it so much.

2020
01:45:08,190 --> 01:45:11,790
I mean, even just having the
conversations, even editing it.

2021
01:45:11,790 --> 01:45:14,230
I love listening to it because
I'm obviously relearning it.

2022
01:45:15,050 --> 01:45:17,930
Yeah, reabsorbing the answers
the person has given me.

2023
01:45:18,570 --> 01:45:21,170
And you're right.
You get into that flow state and

2024
01:45:21,170 --> 01:45:23,330
you start editing.
You can quickly put chop paste.

2025
01:45:23,730 --> 01:45:27,010
I've made my life so much easier
by just starting it, cutting the

2026
01:45:27,010 --> 01:45:28,850
beginning, cutting the end and
just uploading it raw.

2027
01:45:28,850 --> 01:45:32,690
So I've taken a lot of hassles.
Yeah.

2028
01:45:32,690 --> 01:45:34,850
Is there something the guest has
said that they really didn't

2029
01:45:34,850 --> 01:45:37,290
like?
Perhaps want it to be cut out?

2030
01:45:37,290 --> 01:45:39,170
I will go through and cut it
out.

2031
01:45:39,170 --> 01:45:41,460
Other than that, it's very much
raw, uncut.

2032
01:45:41,580 --> 01:45:43,420
Footage.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2033
01:45:43,420 --> 01:45:44,860
I'll probably do something
simple.

2034
01:45:44,860 --> 01:45:47,940
I mean after this I'll probably
do something similar in terms of

2035
01:45:47,940 --> 01:45:50,700
because this is such an
enjoyable conversation for Maya

2036
01:45:50,700 --> 01:45:52,340
and I hope you hope you enjoyed
it as well.

2037
01:45:52,860 --> 01:45:57,820
And you and I mean your story
too, it's just so perfect

2038
01:45:57,820 --> 01:46:01,060
because you really and you're
you're a young guy.

2039
01:46:01,060 --> 01:46:03,940
You're 29 years old, right.
I think you mentioned so.

2040
01:46:04,260 --> 01:46:07,300
And you've come around already.
You had this call to adventure

2041
01:46:07,300 --> 01:46:09,220
you.
You know this interest, this

2042
01:46:09,220 --> 01:46:10,900
passion that's always been
there.

2043
01:46:11,180 --> 01:46:18,980
And then you went into the chaos
of, you know, Med school and 30

2044
01:46:18,980 --> 01:46:24,100
hour shifts to then doing the TV
media hosting stuff, Survivor.

2045
01:46:24,100 --> 01:46:28,340
You've got and now you're
integrating so much of your

2046
01:46:28,340 --> 01:46:31,420
different experiences.
You know, it's like two or three

2047
01:46:31,420 --> 01:46:36,300
dimensions of of things that
you're bringing together with

2048
01:46:36,300 --> 01:46:39,450
this podcast.
On top of you're, you're still

2049
01:46:39,450 --> 01:46:40,850
practicing medical doctor,
right?

2050
01:46:40,970 --> 01:46:44,850
I mean on top of that, you know
you have and that's I think I

2051
01:46:44,850 --> 01:46:46,570
think something beautiful too.
Is that your day-to-day

2052
01:46:46,570 --> 01:46:49,570
practice?
You know that work that you do

2053
01:46:50,130 --> 01:46:55,650
informs the podcast in an angle
that you don't really get that

2054
01:46:55,650 --> 01:47:01,050
perspective from so many people.
So it's just you made it so

2055
01:47:01,050 --> 01:47:04,400
easy.
For me, cuz it's a perfect

2056
01:47:04,400 --> 01:47:05,680
journey.
You know, it's coming through

2057
01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:08,400
and and yet there's still more
to come, you know, I mean,

2058
01:47:08,720 --> 01:47:11,200
you're gonna go through that
process again and again in terms

2059
01:47:11,240 --> 01:47:14,800
of that call, you know, to do
even more and integrate even

2060
01:47:14,800 --> 01:47:17,400
more of your experiences, you
know?

2061
01:47:17,400 --> 01:47:19,560
Thanks so much.
I really appreciate it.

2062
01:47:19,560 --> 01:47:22,680
It's you're right.
It's it's this podcast is pretty

2063
01:47:22,680 --> 01:47:25,480
much me putting them all
together into one partner.

2064
01:47:25,480 --> 01:47:28,920
Finally being able to put
everything into one thing that I

2065
01:47:28,920 --> 01:47:32,680
love so much and and it truly is
that one, that place I go to

2066
01:47:32,680 --> 01:47:34,040
zone on.
This is my hobby.

2067
01:47:34,040 --> 01:47:38,960
This is something I love to do
and it it feels like I'm reading

2068
01:47:38,960 --> 01:47:40,680
because my favorite thing to do
is reading books.

2069
01:47:40,680 --> 01:47:44,280
So when I'm doing a podcast with
the guest, I know I've read all

2070
01:47:44,280 --> 01:47:46,080
their books.
It feels like I'm reading a book

2071
01:47:46,080 --> 01:47:49,200
again and that's pretty it's
pretty cool.

2072
01:47:49,600 --> 01:47:52,000
It's the best feeling I can I
can't even explain it.

2073
01:47:52,000 --> 01:47:57,240
It's just sure it's surreal.
I'm sure it is, cuz yeah, you

2074
01:47:57,240 --> 01:48:02,260
take that written experience.
Which is like in their psyche.

2075
01:48:02,260 --> 01:48:04,300
It's like a part of them.
It's the patterns that you're

2076
01:48:04,420 --> 01:48:08,540
getting through and then you can
actually engage, mind meld, have

2077
01:48:08,540 --> 01:48:13,700
the discussion.
It's pretty surreal, I must say.

2078
01:48:14,580 --> 01:48:16,580
Yeah, it's phenomenal.
What a time.

2079
01:48:16,780 --> 01:48:19,560
What a time to be alive.
Is there anything else you wanna

2080
01:48:19,560 --> 01:48:22,160
say to the audience?
Anything else you wanna ask me?

2081
01:48:22,160 --> 01:48:23,360
I'm gonna say good luck to you
man.

2082
01:48:23,360 --> 01:48:24,840
This is going to be a crazy
adventure.

2083
01:48:24,840 --> 01:48:27,320
This is gonna be something
you're going to look back and

2084
01:48:27,320 --> 01:48:30,200
think, I'm so glad I continued.
I'm so glad I changed the format

2085
01:48:30,200 --> 01:48:33,520
now and then cuz you said you're
planning to do that.

2086
01:48:34,360 --> 01:48:36,480
The more you engage and
experiment, the better it's

2087
01:48:36,480 --> 01:48:39,000
going to get.
So I just wanna say thank you

2088
01:48:39,000 --> 01:48:40,320
for continuing what you're
doing.

2089
01:48:40,480 --> 01:48:44,000
Thanks for the opportunity for
chatting to me and finding my

2090
01:48:44,000 --> 01:48:46,720
story so compelling enough for
you to interview me.

2091
01:48:47,470 --> 01:48:49,350
I appreciate it.
I had such a great time.

2092
01:48:49,390 --> 01:48:52,430
Firstly, but more importantly, I
think you're gonna do a great

2093
01:48:52,430 --> 01:48:55,630
job.
This is gonna be, this is gonna

2094
01:48:55,630 --> 01:48:56,830
be something I'm gonna keep my
eye on.

2095
01:48:56,830 --> 01:48:59,950
And if you're gonna probably
have me on the show at some

2096
01:48:59,950 --> 01:49:03,190
point, yeah.
Yes, yes, I need time.

2097
01:49:03,190 --> 01:49:06,110
Absolutely.
I think we need to have a nice

2098
01:49:06,110 --> 01:49:09,710
discussion on the mind and why
you think reality, why you think

2099
01:49:09,710 --> 01:49:15,110
we're going to find the truth.
I didn't say that, did I?

2100
01:49:15,150 --> 01:49:20,110
I think we might get close.
But true enough, at least.

2101
01:49:20,110 --> 01:49:21,990
Yeah, just like a.
Are you going to change the

2102
01:49:22,030 --> 01:49:23,350
name?
Are you actually going to do it?

2103
01:49:23,630 --> 01:49:26,790
You know what I've done like a
little bit of a the last few

2104
01:49:26,790 --> 01:49:29,350
weeks kind of a restructure it
figuring out the future of the

2105
01:49:29,350 --> 01:49:31,430
channel.
Like obviously this is one step

2106
01:49:31,430 --> 01:49:33,990
in that direction doing.
I want to do like one interview

2107
01:49:33,990 --> 01:49:35,750
a week.
It's kind of something I'd like

2108
01:49:35,750 --> 01:49:39,270
to do it going into 2023,
possibly like one live stream

2109
01:49:39,270 --> 01:49:40,990
per week while I'm doing like a
lecture.

2110
01:49:41,430 --> 01:49:44,550
Educational stuff on the fly,
but be prepared, obviously to a

2111
01:49:44,550 --> 01:49:47,000
degree.
So I'm going to be like a nice,

2112
01:49:47,720 --> 01:49:49,640
you know, because you got to get
the stuff out, You know, you

2113
01:49:49,640 --> 01:49:51,560
have to create a lot of stuff
and put it out there and see

2114
01:49:51,560 --> 01:49:53,880
what happens.
So that's kind of vaguely what

2115
01:49:53,880 --> 01:49:57,520
I'm thinking about.
And I had a lot of ideas for,

2116
01:49:57,680 --> 01:50:00,320
yeah, a new, a rebrand new
structless sort of a new title,

2117
01:50:00,320 --> 01:50:01,640
sort of.
But it's up in the air.

2118
01:50:01,640 --> 01:50:03,360
I don't know.
One of the cool things about

2119
01:50:04,440 --> 01:50:07,080
YouTube in particular, but also
all the social media platforms

2120
01:50:07,080 --> 01:50:09,400
really, is that you can rebrand
on the fly, on the fly, You

2121
01:50:09,400 --> 01:50:11,000
know, you can, like, really
change stuff.

2122
01:50:11,000 --> 01:50:12,080
You don't want to do it too
often.

2123
01:50:12,080 --> 01:50:14,840
Obviously you confuse your
audience, but I've done that.

2124
01:50:14,840 --> 01:50:18,640
So I when I first started this
podcast, it was before the four

2125
01:50:18,920 --> 01:50:23,480
episodes uploaded right to that.
I started the podcast, I think

2126
01:50:23,520 --> 01:50:25,960
almost four months or so before
that.

2127
01:50:25,960 --> 01:50:30,240
But it was a mental health
podcast, and I started it where

2128
01:50:30,240 --> 01:50:32,800
I just did episodes talking
about mental health in general,

2129
01:50:32,960 --> 01:50:37,160
just me speaking, no guests.
And I found myself slowly not

2130
01:50:37,160 --> 01:50:40,040
really enjoying it.
I didn't like it like what I was

2131
01:50:40,040 --> 01:50:42,120
doing.
I was not enjoying the content.

2132
01:50:42,120 --> 01:50:45,320
I stopped it, completely
revamped it, brought on guests

2133
01:50:45,320 --> 01:50:48,560
and decided to make this A2 Way
St. and have a look back.

2134
01:50:48,840 --> 01:50:52,080
So I think if you're feeling
that urge to change it up,

2135
01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:55,200
change it up.
And I assume yeah, this and this

2136
01:50:55,200 --> 01:50:59,360
I think is good because very, I
mean I think it's honest

2137
01:50:59,360 --> 01:51:03,560
criticism of my own stuff.
I saw myself in front of the

2138
01:51:03,560 --> 01:51:07,040
camera like I had like a
teleprompter pre scripted every

2139
01:51:07,040 --> 01:51:10,940
word exactly how I wanted which.
I wanted for quality control,

2140
01:51:10,940 --> 01:51:14,660
but obviously scale wise it just
really reduces your output.

2141
01:51:14,980 --> 01:51:18,900
And then I watch myself now and
I'm so stilted and stiff on

2142
01:51:18,900 --> 01:51:21,140
camera.
And I mean, I do think it's

2143
01:51:21,140 --> 01:51:26,300
tough to read off a teleport to
do that with fun energy.

2144
01:51:26,300 --> 01:51:28,860
You have years and years of
experience doing stuff like

2145
01:51:28,860 --> 01:51:31,980
that.
We got some training in that.

2146
01:51:32,670 --> 01:51:34,190
Yeah, yeah, you got some
training.

2147
01:51:34,190 --> 01:51:36,990
I didn't that.
So I look back and I'm like, Oh

2148
01:51:36,990 --> 01:51:39,910
no, I look terrible, but
whatever, you know, you got to

2149
01:51:39,910 --> 01:51:45,510
just accept it and say you need
to make stuff and if mess up and

2150
01:51:45,510 --> 01:51:48,270
then you kind of, as you said,
it's Joseph Campbell says it

2151
01:51:48,270 --> 01:51:49,270
all.
It's the hero's journey.

2152
01:51:49,270 --> 01:51:53,670
You were just starting out.
Yeah, you just still still it's

2153
01:51:53,670 --> 01:51:55,310
still happening.
It's still you still figuring it

2154
01:51:55,310 --> 01:51:56,710
all out.
Yeah, we all are.

2155
01:51:56,750 --> 01:51:58,390
Yeah, absolutely.
We all are.

2156
01:51:58,390 --> 01:52:01,070
We're all on this journey and
it's I'm gonna take us all to

2157
01:52:01,070 --> 01:52:04,230
very unique places and I'm
looking forward to see where

2158
01:52:04,230 --> 01:52:06,550
yours is going.
Likewise.

2159
01:52:06,550 --> 01:52:08,510
Yeah, absolutely.
And just for anyone watching,

2160
01:52:09,070 --> 01:52:11,790
you can find all a link to all
your stuff to have in the

2161
01:52:11,790 --> 01:52:13,710
description.
So please go to his channel,

2162
01:52:13,710 --> 01:52:18,030
subscribe, engage.
It's a great audience as well

2163
01:52:18,030 --> 01:52:21,910
that you have built up and just
from the bottom of my heart I

2164
01:52:21,910 --> 01:52:24,470
love it when you guys I'm saying
engage to the all the people who

2165
01:52:24,750 --> 01:52:27,750
have watched this.
I love it when you have your

2166
01:52:27,750 --> 01:52:30,070
debate in the comments section.
I read it also.

2167
01:52:30,790 --> 01:52:31,630
You'll see.
Me too.

2168
01:52:32,030 --> 01:52:33,630
Yes.
Need to show us love.

2169
01:52:33,630 --> 01:52:35,230
I mean whatever you want.
Sure.

2170
01:52:35,230 --> 01:52:36,830
Yeah.
Especially in our size.

2171
01:52:36,830 --> 01:52:39,470
I read every comment.
I look through them all and I

2172
01:52:39,470 --> 01:52:42,630
think sometimes, yeah, one time
some guy posted like, you gotta

2173
01:52:42,630 --> 01:52:45,910
read this, like to everyone
else, read the short story about

2174
01:52:45,910 --> 01:52:47,870
the 4th dimension.
And I read it and it was

2175
01:52:47,870 --> 01:52:50,350
awesome.
He's like, I can't believe you

2176
01:52:50,350 --> 01:52:51,790
read it.
I was like, yeah, I'm a person.

2177
01:52:51,790 --> 01:52:54,910
I'm interested in this stuff.
Like you want to see what you

2178
01:52:54,910 --> 01:52:56,670
guys have to say?
Yeah, we really.

2179
01:52:56,830 --> 01:52:59,860
Yeah, we really care.
And we wanna know what you wanna

2180
01:52:59,860 --> 01:53:03,620
hear going forward.
Constructive critiques from the

2181
01:53:03,620 --> 01:53:05,900
comment section.
I mean, you'll have some loyal

2182
01:53:05,900 --> 01:53:07,940
supporters who will give you
good feedback.

2183
01:53:08,420 --> 01:53:11,860
And as your channel grows, I
mean, we're both still growing.

2184
01:53:11,860 --> 01:53:13,780
I mean, as it grows, we're gonna
find people who are going to

2185
01:53:13,780 --> 01:53:17,940
support the channel, eventually
grow into people who will become

2186
01:53:17,940 --> 01:53:19,860
a part of the channel.
Because that's what happens with

2187
01:53:19,860 --> 01:53:21,740
these channels.
They eventually get patrons,

2188
01:53:22,300 --> 01:53:26,340
they get supporters, loyal
customers who come here for a

2189
01:53:26,380 --> 01:53:29,990
service.
And if you do them a disservice,

2190
01:53:29,990 --> 01:53:32,870
they will let you know.
Yeah, absolutely.

2191
01:53:33,030 --> 01:53:35,350
But I can tell that you're gonna
give them a good service.

2192
01:53:35,350 --> 01:53:38,750
So keep up the content.
And I'm looking.

2193
01:53:40,670 --> 01:53:42,470
For you too.
I can't wait to continue

2194
01:53:42,470 --> 01:53:44,230
following your journey.
Absolutely.

2195
01:53:44,830 --> 01:53:48,270
I'm gonna look forward to
watching yours very attentively.

2196
01:53:48,870 --> 01:53:50,510
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate your time.

2197
01:53:50,910 --> 01:53:52,510
I had such a great time.
Thanks so much for the

2198
01:53:52,510 --> 01:53:55,190
opportunity and I can't wait to
see how this comes out.

2199
01:53:55,710 --> 01:53:57,070
See me too.
Thanks.

2200
01:53:57,960 --> 01:53:58,080
And.