Tevin Naidu: What is Consciousness? Theories of Consciousness & The Mind-Body Solution

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Doctor Tevin Naidu, what a
wonderful time to be with you.

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You're a great medical doctor,
philosopher, and ethicist.

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You host a wonderful podcast
with great thinkers,

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philosophers, and scientists.
And so I feel like you've been

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through so much and so deeply
into the field of consciousness.

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I was thinking, you know, like
you go into this YouTube and you

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want to buy a camera and you
just ask what is the best camera

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available.
And they'll tell you, you know

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#4 #5 number six, number one,
and pros and cons and the price

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and all of that, that maybe we
can have fun together doing

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this.
But rather than for cameras and

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printers, for what theories
there are around about

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consciousness, let's start with,
if I may suggest, with the most

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physical one, which means we
start that rather than having

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the physical and the mental as
dualism tries to suggest.

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There are scientists,
philosophers, thinkers that

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think that actually there is
only the physical.

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The other side of the spectrum
we have, there is only the

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mental or only consciousness.
But if we start with only the

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physical, so we have that
physical reality.

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And what about consciousness?
Then that's the hard problem of

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consciousness.
So what are the pros and cons of

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total physicalist?
Consciousness is actually

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nothing.
It's an illusion.

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And from time to time, if we
remember, we'll mention those

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scientists or thinkers that
support such ideas.

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Well, Tony, first of all, thank
you for that wonderful

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introduction.
I mean, I started Mind Body

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Solution for primarily the same
reason.

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I mean, I'm trying to figure
this out.

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It's been something that's on my
mind since I've been a child.

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I was around 9 when I first
started questioning the nature

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of reality.
Why am I thinking similar to

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Descartes?
I mean, you're putting yourself

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in this position where you, you,
you try and exclude everything

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else and try to understand what
is the fundamental nature of my

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mind or reality.
And I think that's a great

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question.
And you're right.

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I mean, the fact is we're both
doing something so similar.

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We're exploring this this, this
field, dissecting it very

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philosophically.
And I think it's best to do that

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because when you dissect things
philosophically, you tend to

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notice a lot of flaws in your
own logic and reasoning.

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I grew up fundamentally
physicalist.

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For me, there was it was all
physical to me.

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From when you start off at
quarks, bosons, you go from

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physics into chemistry, into
biology, anatomy, Physiology,

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psychology.
For me, it was very much an

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emergentism sort of approach.
And that's one of the physical

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theories out there.
I mean, emergentism is one of

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them.
If you think about water, for

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example, how does, how does
separate H2O molecules sort of

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come together to form this
liquid that we all see?

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And that's what I thought
consciousness was.

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I thought at some point, perhaps
you put enough neurons together,

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bundle them up, and you get this
amazing feature that is water,

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let's say, and that's
consciousness.

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And and then along the way, it
started to change.

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I mean, I remember reading a lot
of Daniel Dennett and a lot of

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other philosophers, and there's
so many different theories.

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For example, Dennett has the
multiple drafts theory.

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You've got someone like Joshua
Bach who's got this cortical

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conductor theory, You've got
global workspace theory, I mean,

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Stan de Haine, you've got
Christophe KOK and integrated

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information theory.
There's so many neuroscientific

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theories that are physicalist
and you are talking about

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physicalism and what they tend
to do is what people call a

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materialistic reductionism.
They, they, I don't really like

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the word reductionism also
because back when I was doing

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it, I felt like I was actually
trying to give more or to this

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experience.
I mean, you reduce them to

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layers, yes, but you bring them
all back together somehow to

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create this wonderful experience
that we all have, which is

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consciousness.
Often say we are a conscious

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conglomerate of cells organized
by organelles, designed by DNA,

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manufactured by molecules,
assembled by atoms, forged by

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fusion via Stella supernovae.
I mean, this wonderful process,

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I mean, from a star exploding,
creating all of these atoms that

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sort of come together at some
point and make this mind, this

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person that's talking to you
right now.

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And even that started to change
over time.

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I mean, I, I wrote in my
dissertation and essay on

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illusionism as a theory of
consciousness because I found it

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very persuasive.
I mean, for us, when you look at

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the way we perceive reality, all
animals on the planet, to me,

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are limited by our sensory
adaptations to this planet.

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I'll give you one example.
The optical window, for example,

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you're only allowed to see
between ultraviolet and infrared

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if you were on Earth because
that's all the radiation that

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the atmosphere allows through.
And that's why it's called the

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optical window.
It's all we can see.

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And the humans can only see Roy
jibuv, so red, orange, yellow,

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green violets.
But there are certain species

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like birds or snakes that can
see infrared and ultraviolet,

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and none of us see anything
else, which has to make us

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question the fact that we don't
see reality for what it really

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is.
You've got to ask yourself, are

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we really seeing the truth, the
radicality, what's out there?

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So that got me really daunting.
Human intuition.

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We have biases, we have
heuristic adaptations to our

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environments, and we have to
survive.

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It's to me, it's not about
survival of the fittest.

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I don't like using that term
because I think it's the

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survival of whatever has the
best genes to accommodate the

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environment.
So for example, people say

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humans around the world.
I don't think so.

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To me, bacteria run this planet.
I mean, the typical human body,

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I think it's about 30 trillion
human cells and 39 trillion

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bacterial cells.
So at what point are we going to

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ask ourselves, am I human or am
I bacteria or, or when do when

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do all these bacteria consider
themselves human?

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So these started to if.
It's a question of cells, just

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numbers.
Exactly.

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Yeah, I mean, it does.
It does make you think about

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this fact that you're not purely
yourself.

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I mean, if you're hungry, the
brain got access.

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This brain gut relationship so
important and you know, the

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amount of neurotransmitters that
go through your gut and how it

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affects your mood.
If you're hungry, you're really

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irritable, angry, it changes the
mind.

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So there is definitely some sort
of a connection between this

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physical apparently so according
to this sort of relationship

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between the physical and the
mental.

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So it started a very illusionist
for me.

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I started to think that perhaps
we're not really prepared for

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the outcome.
I know there's this one quote by

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Elvis Dumbledore and Harry
Potter in the books and he says

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Harry, just because it was a
dream or something like that

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doesn't mean it wasn't real, or
just because it's all in your

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mind doesn't mean it wasn't
real.

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Yeah, that Chalmers, Chalmers
reality.

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Plus now with the idea that even
even you know the 3D that we see

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through Oculus or through
whatever is a real also in some

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sense very interesting.
How much work on virtual reality

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at this point is becoming
amazing.

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I mean, he's bringing up so many
new topics that showcase how

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this is a real world.
You put it on and you enter a

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new domain of reality.
So so yeah, we started off

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physicalist.
I started very much physicalist.

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And this podcast Mind Body
Solution is really what's slowly

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making me not mysterianism.
I'm not a mysterious at this

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point, but I am very
ontologically unsure about

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what's out there at this point.
I've, I've heard theories that

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are so amazing, so well thought
out, and I've heard such

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coherent logical arguments that
I cannot make.

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AI cannot make an assumption of
what consciousness is and what

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it's not.
So yeah, that's for me.

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Physicalism was my beginning
though, and I I fundamentally

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based my beliefs on it for a
long time.

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Wonderful.
And the range though I just for

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those who are listening and the
range of the big, you know,

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divisions, categories, let's say
physicalism, dualism and then

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mentalism or not mentalism,
idealism and pan psychism.

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There are also gradations of
what, you know, scientists and

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philosophers think.
And Tevin, Dr. Naidu mentioned,

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you know already 2 aspects.
One is illusionism and the other

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emergentism.
And there are different layers

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of how much it's an illusion.
There is strong illusionism or

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weak illusionism.
So we want to really dissect it.

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Like, OK, we're starting with
physicalists.

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And now there are those who say
that consciousness is just an

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illusion.
Forget about it being an

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emergent real quality.
They just say it's really an

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illusion.
We are fooling ourselves that we

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have consciousness.
So when we are just looking at

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our different quality cameras or
printers, you know, we're

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looking at now physicalists who
say it's an illusion.

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What are the pros and cons of
this?

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Then we'll go to physicalists
that say, well, consciousness

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actually is real, but it emerges
from the physical.

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So what are the pros and cons of
this and what from your side,

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how you have felt, what was
impressive in those, you know,

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Frankish or Dennett that are
more on the on the illusion side

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or the emergentists like that?
So we're just on these two

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categories to start with.
Yeah, I mean, something that

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really pops up is immediately, I
think Dennett has a quote,

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Consciousness is an illusion of
the brain for the brain.

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By the brain, I mean, that's as
physicalist as you can get.

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You are purely making the brain
this object that is responsible

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for this phenomenal subjective
qualitative experience, the

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qualia that we experience, the
redness of red.

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I mean, that's the most popular
philosophical color.

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People love the color red.
My own dissertation I used a red

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sunset to describe.
Which is a 700 nanometer

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wavelength, by the way.
Yes, just like that.

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But we think it's red and fine.
We live it as red, we experience

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it.
I mean, a quote, this quote

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wasn't meant to refer to
illusionism, but Frederick

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Nietzsche, he said, he said
something along the lines of

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truths are illusions, which we
have forgotten are illusions.

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All right.
And, and I think that's true.

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I think we, we're often, we
often think of things as they

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are when they're not in reality,
they're not what we think they

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are.
And just, I think the best place

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to start is definitions.
I mean, the word illusion comes

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from a Latin word.
It's called illudera and it

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means to mock or to, to play
against basically.

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And then it was translated
thereafter in Middle English, I

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think it was translated to
deception or deceiving.

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So I think the word illusion
already comes with a lot of

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backlash for Frankish and
Dennett because they have to do

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a lot of backtracking.
What they're trying to say is

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this is my interpretation.
What they're trying to say is,

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is that it consciousness is not
an illusion per SE in the sense

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that it does not exist.
That the definition of an

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illusion.
I mean, you should you know

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this.
In psychiatry, we refer to this

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as an illusion, as a
misinterpretation of sensory

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stimuli that do exist.
So it's not misinterpreting non

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existence stimuli, it's more
you're just misinterpreting real

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stimuli.
So when they refer to

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consciousness as an illusion,
they're actually trying to refer

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to this ethereal entity we
believe we have.

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So more people believe we have
this sort of soul or

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consciousness entity that is
ethereal, past metaphysical,

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something we just cannot come to
grasp with.

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And that's a misinterpretation.
The truth is we're, we're just

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this empty skull with, with a
lot of neurons and blood vessels

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and nerves.
And that's what really makes us

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who we are.
Paul Brocks, he's the writer.

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I mean, there's this wonderful
quote, I can't remember it word

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for I'll paraphrase it, but he
says when you're in surgery, a

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neurosurgeon, you cut open that
brain, you look inside, you see

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this pulsating organ, blood
gushing everywhere.

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You cut and probe, you pick you,
you notice at that point that

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there's nothing else in there.
There's just the blood vessels,

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nerves.
There is no essence.

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There is no ethereal entity and
I found that very compelling at

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the time because that's what
Dennett and Frankish are talking

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about.
They're not specifically saying

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that this experience we're
having the the seeing red, this

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qualitative phenomenon of red
does not exist.

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They're saying that this is not
an ethereal essence like

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quality.
So it does in fact occur.

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It's a it's a real experience
that we're having.

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Frankish calls it quasi
phenomenal features.

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So so it's not that they're not
happening, it's that they are.

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Except when we introspect on
this experience, we tend to give

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it an ethereal entity and that's
where their problem lies.

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They don't like the fact.
It's almost like, I mean,

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Dennett calls it bringing up the
Ian Vittal once again, we're

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looking for this extra thing,
layer of, of existence that

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makes humans more important.
And we've done this.

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I mean, the theory of
heliocentrism took us out of the

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center of the universe.
The theory of evolution by

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natural selection took us off
the top of the food chain.

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And for for them, illusionism
takes us off this pedestal that

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that we think as humans, we
possess this fundamental quality

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that perhaps other animals
don't.

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So it's interesting to see that
the dynamic play out because

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then you have, as you said,
theories like panpsychism or

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idealism, where this could apply
to any, any sort of Organism

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doesn't have to be a human
being.

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And and that's where the topic
analyst goes into very different

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directions.
Yeah, wonderful.

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00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:31,160
So just to to highlight a few
points, you have molecules of

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00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:36,120
water and they are H2O and then
they come together as you

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mentioned and they create
fluidity or wetness.

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And we can say that fluidity and
wetness are emergent qualities

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from basic elements.
So the if if we say that

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00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:59,080
fluidity actually doesn't exist
as an essence, which means there

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is nothing a priori before the
water molecules coming together

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00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,800
that is fluidity or that is
wetness.

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There is nothing like that.
But as they come together they

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emerge.
So the there is a slight

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difference between illusionism
fully like and higher level

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where actually you think that
there is fluidity, you think

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that there is wetness, but it's
not really there.

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It's just your way of
interpreting these things.

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And that is the full emergent
level, which means no wetness

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00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:45,440
actually emerges and fluidity
actually are real.

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They're not an illusion.
They are real on their own as

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something independent of, you
know, how you judge them or not.

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They become actually real
values.

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So can you say we have a little
difference there between

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illusionism and emergentism,
even though illusionism says

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00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:09,240
that it's an emergent illusion
that emerges from somewhere, but

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00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,320
it doesn't want to recognize
that something real actually

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00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,560
emerges?
Yeah, I mean, this goes back to

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00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,320
sort of a lot of philosophers
back in the day.

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00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,840
If you think of people like
Locke, Berkeley, etcetera.

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00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,720
I mean when you think of naive
realism, for example, I mean

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00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:27,840
this is where a lot of
illusionists will come at you

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00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,000
because the fact is we don't see
reality for what it is.

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00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,720
We have to put on infrared
goggles to see in the dark.

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00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,920
We have to do these things,
which means fundamentally we are

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00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,640
not seeing reality for what it
is.

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00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,480
Let let's take a few examples.
If you think of something like

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00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,160
inattentional blindness, I mean,
you see a, you've seen that

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00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,280
video, everyone's seen it where
a gorilla runs past.

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00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,960
I mean, you don't notice this
until you actually are aware of

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00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,720
it.
Another thing is, is when you

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00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,360
see a patient with perhaps split
brain, he's got a corpus

294
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,280
cholecystomy done.
And now when you ask them

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00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,359
questions, they sort of
confabulate answers to justify

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00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,880
reasons, but they fundamentally
believe this is the truth.

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00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,480
And this is where someone like
Susan Blackmore, Professor

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00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,720
Blackmore, she talks about
what's called delusionism.

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00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,119
This delusion that we think
we're constantly consciously

300
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,920
aware of things Marvin Minsky
once said, like we'll, we'll

301
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,040
never make a computer that is
aware of itself.

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00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,920
But then again, humans are
barely aware of themselves most

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00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,320
of the time anyway.
I'm paraphrasing that as well,

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00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,640
which which is true.
I mean, the only time we really

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00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,520
ask ourselves or or acknowledge
the fact that we're conscious,

306
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,360
it is when we ask ourselves, am
I conscious now?

307
00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:46,800
Am IA conscious being?
Other than that, you're an

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00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,760
autopilot just driving home
during the days.

309
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:54,200
Very robotic, very, very
mechanistic in a sense.

310
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,120
But it's also clear that we work
under frameworks.

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00:17:57,120 --> 00:17:59,800
I mean, there was a time when we
looked at pumps and thought

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00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:01,560
that, OK, the brain functions as
a pump.

313
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,120
Consciousness must be the sort
of pump like system.

314
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,120
Then we move on to like
computers today and now we've

315
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:11,120
got Bayesian frameworks, people
like Carl Friston, Anil, Seth,

316
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,240
much more intricate
neuroscientific theories trying

317
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,000
to explain consciousness.
Very convincing as well.

318
00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:19,720
I know I've seen your talk with
Anil.

319
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:21,760
I'm going to probably chat to
him soon.

320
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,160
And I mean, Anil's doing some
amazing work in neuroscience,

321
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,840
but it doesn't change the fact
that it's difficult to find

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00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:30,520
neural correlates of
consciousness.

323
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,520
I mean, we can barely find
neural correlates of, of, of

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00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,200
love of, of, of seeing red
because our brains are so

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00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,600
fundamentally different.
So to me, it's, it's just, it's

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00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,480
difficult because the
emergentist and the illusionist

327
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,520
both agree fundamentally that
the nature of reality is

328
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,680
ontologically real.
And, and all this physical, this

329
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,760
physicality of the universe is
real, which is an assumption.

330
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,000
Because the truth is once this
switches off, we don't know what

331
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,800
happens next.
We're we're not yet aware of

332
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,800
what's going to happen, what
happened prior to that, what

333
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,600
happens after that.
So you can't make that

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00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,640
conclusion knowing that we
barely see reality for what it

335
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,120
is.
I mean, physicalism itself and

336
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:18,320
95% of the universe we call dark
matter.

337
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,160
And that's just the one way of
saying we don't know.

338
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,440
So can't claim to know things
and to all claim that reality is

339
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,960
physical if you can barely
explain what reality is.

340
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,480
Well, this, you know, they're
ironically, in fact, it brings

341
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,440
the question that even in its
own search for its own ultimate

342
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:42,360
reality, the physical approach
has taken us from different

343
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:47,240
levels and layers of what we
call real into the atom as the

344
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,480
constituent.
Because if we're looking at an

345
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,440
essence, then the atom is
elementary particles.

346
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,440
The elementary particles,
whether quarks or whatever, are

347
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,720
themselves fluctuations in
fields.

348
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,680
The fields are being unified
more and more into more unified

349
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,600
fields.
And then you have quantum

350
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,920
reality and quantum field theory
and non locality and

351
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,600
superposition and entanglement
and all of that.

352
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,920
And so as if the physical
approach itself is seeing with

353
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,160
in front of its eyes the
disintegration.

354
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:28,440
Of the so-called hard localized
classical ultimate reality that

355
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,840
we know is completely
disintegrated.

356
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:35,560
But even then going into the
fields we have non locality, we

357
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,920
have action at a distance,
whatever spooky or not,

358
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:44,200
entanglement and all of that.
And so we're coming to fields

359
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,000
of, you know, greatest
scientists talking about

360
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,160
mathematical nature of reality,
even mental nature of reality

361
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,920
and all of that.
So when we say there is a

362
00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:00,040
hallucination or a collective
hallucination, we wonder what is

363
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,800
the hallucination?
Is it the hallucinator, the the

364
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:08,480
subject, the consciousness unit
that is hallucinating that it is

365
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,760
conscious?
Or is it the object that is

366
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,120
actually whatever we call the
object that is being

367
00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:18,640
hallucinated?
And that leads us to also

368
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,680
another thing which we have to,
I feel, broaden our

369
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,280
understanding and inclusion of
what consciousness is.

370
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,960
That consciousness is not just
the anthropomorphic.

371
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,480
I am conscious and metal
consciousness.

372
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,600
You know, when you mentioned the
example of the gorilla moving

373
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:41,040
while people are playing the
basketball or whatever, and you

374
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,960
ask people to count how many
times they put it there and so

375
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,840
they don't actually see the
gorilla there.

376
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,800
But there are other studies
where you can present different

377
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,840
pictures.
I'm sure you're aware of this

378
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,720
also, of course.
And then you you create a

379
00:21:54,720 --> 00:22:01,600
certain the, the diversion or
quality of things and people

380
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,480
don't see the picture at all
because it's not in that

381
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,120
particular view.
However, when you analyze what's

382
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:11,800
happening in their emotions and
their brain, they get a

383
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,960
different reaction.
If the picture was a smiling

384
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:20,880
face versus a frowning face, and
therefore there has been some

385
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,480
kind of awareness which is
subliminal.

386
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,720
And that leads us to think,
well, maybe consciousness is not

387
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:32,000
just being conscious on that
surface level, but there is also

388
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,080
a different layer of
consciousness.

389
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,520
We try to tend to call it
subconscious or unconscious.

390
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:42,280
But the the Physiology detected
that, your cells detected that,

391
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,000
your nervous system detected
that and reacted to it.

392
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,280
You don't know that has
happened.

393
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,040
Well, that's a higher level of
consciousness.

394
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,320
What do you think about that?
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's

395
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,520
completely correct.
If you think about Benjamin

396
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,200
Libett studies, I mean, back in
the day when he was talking

397
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,560
about free will, it's it, it's
it aligns well, there's Yuri

398
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,200
Miles who does more studies on
that.

399
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:13,280
We we know that let's say for
example, seeing or even even

400
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,880
introceptive things takes time
to occur.

401
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,080
I mean, there has to be some
sort of a delay.

402
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,400
So this temporality that we
experience also must be some

403
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,800
sort of an illusion to many
people because in order to see

404
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,800
something, photos of, to travel
to your eyes, then get

405
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,320
transduced, processed and then
interpreted, and then you have

406
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,360
to have that emotional response
that you're talking about.

407
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:36,200
Now the question is, how can
this happen in sort of a

408
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,880
nanosecond?
How is this possible?

409
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,040
That temporality, it does change
the game.

410
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,840
It makes you wonder, are things
happening unconsciously most of

411
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:49,000
the time, which a lot of people
do, think unconscious inference.

412
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,800
Helmholtz, he is one of the
first people to talk about this

413
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,680
and that's we call Friston and
Anil Sethin will come into this

414
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,320
state.
That's why they think this is

415
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,960
just a shared hallucination.
I mean, the, the one thing they

416
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,320
talk about that's fundamental is
our the fact that we have

417
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,640
identical DNA structures.
And because of that, it makes it

418
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,360
easier for us to hallucinate a
similar reality.

419
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,440
Whereas if you and I were
separated, let's say by 1 gene

420
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,600
and one of us were a chimp, we
see completely different

421
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,440
realities at that point because
of the fact that there's a

422
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,560
slight difference in DNA
structures.

423
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:27,120
But I completely agree, I think
that this, this, the fact that

424
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:31,320
we cannot interpret reality the
same way due to all of our

425
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,200
different and diverse
unconscious inferences means

426
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,120
that something must be going on
that we just don't understand.

427
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:42,120
I mean, a, a great example would
be psychotic patients, patients

428
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:44,760
with schizophrenia.
Something very fascinating about

429
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:49,760
these patients are when you show
them a, an illusion, an optical

430
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,280
illusion.
Let's say someone is psychotic

431
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,440
at the moment, schizophrenic
patient having acute psychosis

432
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,040
and you show them, let's say the
checkered board illusion, the

433
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,800
famous one with the Gray one
block screen, the other one's

434
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,920
white.
And you ask them what colour is

435
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,680
the block and they'll actually
tell you it's it's not Gray,

436
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,520
it's white.
They don't see the illusion,

437
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,760
which makes you wonder, are they
seeing reality for.

438
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,480
What it really?
In their psychosis and am I

439
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,600
seeing a false reality?
So you have to ask.

440
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,000
These philosophical questions,
particularly when I was the

441
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,000
doctor treating this patient and
that's why I sort of entered the

442
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,840
philosophical sphere in any
case, because I mean, you can't

443
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,840
not ask these questions.
Is this experience that this

444
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,000
patient is having where the
solipsism has got to him, where

445
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,600
every voice is sort of
resonating with him.

446
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,680
This could be a fundamental
experience he's having that I

447
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:45,240
just don't have access to.
And it's not my place to sort of

448
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,360
judge.
I mean, I'm, we're there to help

449
00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:49,760
as doctors, obviously, as if
you're a physician, you're there

450
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,040
to help.
But I'm not there to really tell

451
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:56,320
him that this is not real,
because to him, this is a real

452
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,480
experience.
Yeah.

453
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,040
So there's a lot of blurry lines
there.

454
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,520
So reality is really different
in different states of

455
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,920
consciousness.
What we can call states of

456
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,880
consciousness, because even what
we call the unconscious, it's

457
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,720
unconscious in certain level of
appreciation of things.

458
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:21,280
But if our cells and our body
and our nervous system has

459
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,840
reacted to that, but we don't
know it on the meta

460
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,680
consciousness level, it still
can be consciousness.

461
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:34,640
And that's why I was in favor of
broadening the concept of

462
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:40,200
consciousness and taking it to
whatever is being sensed or

463
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:45,640
experienced or felt as also
being a piece of consciousness.

464
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,640
And when I build my idealistic
theory, I am obliged in a sense,

465
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:56,600
and happily so, to say, that any
sensing is a part of

466
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,960
consciousness.
Any experience, which means even

467
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:06,680
a stone sensing gravity is a
meager, minor, very little level

468
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,120
of consciousness and therefore
consciousness is on the range

469
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:16,480
from zero to, who knows, even
higher than human consciousness.

470
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,680
And if we change the definition
a little bit, then we can start

471
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,680
to accept the pan psychist and
ultimately the idealist

472
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,160
perception.
Now, let's having discussed this

473
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,280
aspect of physicalism,
illusionism, emergentism, what

474
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,400
are the pros and cons and what
are things that you intuitively

475
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,200
feel?
Well, I like to believe in this,

476
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,040
but there are these, you know,
minor things that are not

477
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,120
answered, that are lacking in
the theory or the understanding.

478
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,320
So how, how how we put pros and
cons to this?

479
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,160
That's a that's a great
question.

480
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,320
I think it's it's an important
question as well because how we

481
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,400
frame our understanding of
consciousness and how we frame

482
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,120
how we perceive what the mind is
versus the body dictates how we

483
00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:09,440
treat people.
It also effects ethics, morals,

484
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,840
values, particularly, let's say
in psychiatry.

485
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,080
If we are going to make the
brain the fundamental element of

486
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,040
where consciousness comes from,
we're going to constantly look

487
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,240
at neuro correlates as evidence
for experience.

488
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,200
And therefore we will treat
patients a certain way because

489
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,800
of something we've seen on a
scan, perhaps a functional

490
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,240
MRIACT scan, whatever it is.
And and that's a dangerous that

491
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,400
you, you're treading on sort of
dangerous territories there

492
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,920
because you'll medicalize a lot
of normal experiences that are

493
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,080
human experiences.
So if someone's having perhaps a

494
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,600
manic episode and they scan this
person's brain and they notice,

495
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,520
OK, just above, maybe perhaps
just below the prefrontal

496
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,120
cortex, we can see a lot of
light activity there.

497
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,120
And perhaps we should do
something about that area.

498
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,000
Maybe we should touch that and
effect that.

499
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,600
And that might be a problem
because of the diversity of

500
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,680
experiences we all have.
Doing that to another patient

501
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,760
might not help.
And so this medicalization of a

502
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,120
normal human experience is one
of the cons perhaps of this

503
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,120
physicalist, reductive approach
to it.

504
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,520
But this is from a from a
utilitarian kind of perspective,

505
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,400
which means are we better off
taking that theory?

506
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,800
It helps us better socially and
functionally in society.

507
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,800
That's from that kind of
utilitarian side.

508
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,760
But let's also think about it
from a kind of it as an

509
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,040
explanatory theory.
Does it explain everything?

510
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,840
I mean, you can say, oh, OK, it
emerges, but how does it emerge?

511
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:45,360
It's like, explain to me, is it
some quantum mechanical thing in

512
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,800
the tubules?
But then there is so many

513
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,600
arguments against this because
you know, on quantum mechanics

514
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,000
and interaction will collapse
the wave function or will create

515
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,600
the coherence and all that.
So that falls apart.

516
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,040
So we're just throwing an idea
that consciousness emerges,

517
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,320
somehow emerges, but how does it
emerge?

518
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,920
There is still a big explanatory
gap, I think, in that, in that

519
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,920
area also as part of the cons on
the explanatory level.

520
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,440
Yeah, I think, I think it was
Michael Levin who called it for

521
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,240
the first.
No, no, it was, I think it was

522
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,000
Levin, not Michael though, who
coined this term.

523
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,800
The explanatory gap similar to
like the distinction between

524
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,560
this hard problem of
consciousness versus the easy

525
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:34,000
problem or access consciousness.
Yeah, that's phenomenal

526
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,760
Consciousness.
You're right.

527
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,200
I mean, there's no way for them
to really explain this.

528
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,080
I mean, you've got people like
Penrose, John Vivecki with with

529
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,840
quantum consciousness theories,
and they're trying to talk about

530
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,560
the microtubules and how this
might affect it.

531
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,000
But yeah, as you said, the more
you go into the quantum

532
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,560
mechanics of it all, the more
you realize that this is so

533
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,280
difficult to explain.
There, there we know.

534
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,200
We barely know what we're
talking about.

535
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:01,240
And I mean every.
Let's give it every 100 years

536
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,880
physics changes completely.
I mean, Newtonian physics was

537
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,920
completely obliterated once
Einstein came along.

538
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,360
And then you've got quantum
mechanics that comes along while

539
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,960
Einstein's there.
And now he calls the spooky

540
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,440
action at a distance and he's
freaked out about it.

541
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:20,280
So physics doesn't really help
us to explain the fundamental

542
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,680
nature of reality because the
assumption that's already made

543
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,480
is that physics, physical
objects are the fundamental

544
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,400
nature of reality.
So that's The thing is, is

545
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,000
that's what all philosophers or
scientists have to do in order

546
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,800
to make a theory.
You've got to make a, a

547
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,760
presumption, an assumption.
Something has to be assumed.

548
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,160
And then you work from there.
I think someone who's very

549
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,560
convincing to change that around
is someone like Donald Hoffman.

550
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,880
I mean, if you think of
conscious realism, which is in

551
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,960
fact an idealist theory of
consciousness, he, he, he really

552
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,160
looks at the mathematics and the
physics of it all.

553
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,120
He's kind of combining these two
areas in a very creative way,

554
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,840
this physicalist view and then
now form for forming it together

555
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,360
with this idealist view.
And I remember, I'll never

556
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,200
forget when he spoke about how
he, he did the compute

557
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,040
computations, did the
mathematics.

558
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,600
And when he asked, well, well,
when he tried to figure out

559
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,400
what's the likelihood that we
see reality for what it is, he

560
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,360
got a probability of 0.
And this is a lot.

561
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,520
He, he apparently had to sit
down and just take a breather

562
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,120
because at that point he, he was
physicalist, fundamentally a

563
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,680
materialist, reductive man who
wanted to search for

564
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,160
consciousness in this physical
world.

565
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,400
And that can scare someone.
I mean, you're, it can actually

566
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,720
affect your mental health.
If you get a mathematical

567
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,520
equation that you know is very
rigorously done and effective

568
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:46,080
and it tells you reality is just
not what it is, it will shift

569
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,240
your thinking.
And when I've read books like

570
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,440
that, I mean, when when you
listen to your theory, anyone

571
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,560
else's theory, I spoke to Philip
Goff the other day and you

572
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,320
listen to some of the logical
arguments they have against

573
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,320
physicalism specifically.
Many of them are very

574
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,720
convincing.
So I think in terms of

575
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,240
explanatory gaps, both, all
these theories have an issue

576
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:07,960
there.
It's not just physicalism.

577
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,120
I think idealists have this
explanatory.

578
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:11,720
Gap.
We haven't gone to idealists.

579
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,000
We will defend that in a minute.
Yeah, yeah, OK.

580
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,440
No, no, for sure.
But I I think that they all do

581
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,400
at some point there is this
explanatory gap.

582
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,280
And it's not because one of the
theories are wrong or the other

583
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,440
is wrong.
I think it's because I don't

584
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,960
think that humans have the
linguistic capabilities to

585
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,640
explore these phenomena the way
we could.

586
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,240
And I think it comes down to
language per Southeast.

587
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,560
I think that particularly the
fact that we're using English, I

588
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,640
think that certain languages
portray a lot more information.

589
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,560
Let's take for example, ancient
cultures like Sanskrit.

590
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,360
I mean the amount of
punctuation's thousands, the way

591
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,320
you could express the way you're
talking about consciousness

592
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,800
could possibly be expressed in
like 10 different ways, whereas

593
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,320
we have this one word,
consciousness or soul, maybe

594
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,400
like three to four words.
I think the fact that we have

595
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,880
this limitation linguistically,
that we will struggle to explain

596
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,920
such a complex phenomenon, and
that's the way I think the

597
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,840
problem really lies.
I am optimistic because I like

598
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,560
my theory.
When we when we get to it, I

599
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,239
think.
I think let's let's talk about

600
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,639
it.
I mean, tell me your optimism

601
00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:21,199
this.
I mean, Tony, I'd love to hear

602
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:22,840
about it.
I mean, I've heard, I've heard

603
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,920
enough.
But yeah, I mean, talking to you

604
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,679
directly, I would be, I'm, I'm
keen to hear more about how do

605
00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:31,960
you think at the moment you're
able to defend your view against

606
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:36,400
these?
I developed my theory since 10s

607
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,800
of years with working with
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and

608
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,920
starting with an assumption.
Always.

609
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,440
You know the Vedantic assumption
that consciousness is all there

610
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,080
is and everything else is an
appearance in consciousness.

611
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,679
Here the explanatory gap
changes.

612
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:56,840
It's no more the hard problem of
consciousness, it becomes the

613
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:01,200
hard problem of physicalness.
Because if everything is

614
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,880
consciousness, how do you
explain the physical phenomena

615
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,800
that we, we encounter?
So this is where I started in a

616
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:15,360
sense with almost a prejudice or
almost a, you know, preconceived

617
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,240
idea.
But it's the explanatory power

618
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:26,280
that led me to be more or less
and more and more as delved into

619
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:31,720
the possibilities of that, that
being more convincing

620
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,600
intellectually and answering
more questions than the

621
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:40,880
physicalist approach answers.
Not only in terms of the

622
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,120
appearance of the physical from
the non physical.

623
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,480
And we have to of course say how
does it work, what happens, but

624
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,880
also in terms of freedom and
determinism and law and order

625
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,920
and sin and good and bad and
meaning of life and and the why

626
00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,600
of things.
Why does it happen?

627
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,000
How does it happen?
Most of these are metaphysical

628
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:08,400
questions that in modern times
mostly, or until recently have

629
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:13,160
been rejected by by scientists
and thinkers because we decide,

630
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,920
OK, we have no answer to them.
And so let's deal with what we

631
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:22,160
can analyze and scientifically
investigate and come to a logic

632
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,120
rather than stay in the world of
opinions.

633
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,760
So, you know, we needed
something that can unify

634
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:33,400
ontology, epistemology, epics
and even science.

635
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:39,240
And I feel that approach does
the does the trick.

636
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,120
And so, you know, going back to
the physicalist, there is one

637
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:49,640
major aspect of the physicalism,
which will always be, I think, a

638
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,520
mystery.
Where does energy come from?

639
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,840
It's like where does this
physical come from?

640
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,600
Even if we take it from the
molecule to the atom to the

641
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,440
elementary particle, we say OK,
everything is fields.

642
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:07,000
Fine, everything is 1 field.
We can also say that scientists

643
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,480
haven't fully discovered that
there is the Super string theory

644
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,480
and M theory that that are
coming very close to explaining

645
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,360
that, you know, and strings
vibrating and sound becoming

646
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,560
important as if sound because
it's vibration.

647
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,720
But then you ask where is the
energy coming from?

648
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,240
What is when did it start?
When did it end?

649
00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:31,080
The same questions that we asked
when we were, you know, growing

650
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,640
up and young is like, what's the
beginning?

651
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,840
What's the end?
What's beyond the universe

652
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,920
emptiness or what, or what's
there?

653
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,720
It's at A at a certain point, it
has to end.

654
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,000
But what is Infinity?
So I think these are fundamental

655
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,640
questions that the physicalists
cannot answer and will probably

656
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,880
never answer.
And the reason I think they

657
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,600
cannot is because their starting
point is the wrong one.

658
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,520
Yeah, it's, I mean, but like, so
how would, how would an idealist

659
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,000
answer that question?
So let's move then.

660
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,120
We've moved from the physicalist
illusionism, emergentism, and

661
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,000
now we have, let's say, dualism.
Dualism.

662
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,680
We're not going to try to defend
it very much because it's hard

663
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,520
to believe how two different
things talk to each other and

664
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,560
why should there be two things
or why should there be a third

665
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,640
element that creates these two
things?

666
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,080
So this has been, you know, kind
of neglected by philosophers and

667
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,960
thinkers.
So now the question is OK, if

668
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,280
it's not the physical that is
primary, it is then

669
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,440
consciousness or something like
conscious something non physical

670
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:48,560
that is primary.
Now in this camp we have two two

671
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:55,720
aspects broadly, we have the pan
psychists and we have the full

672
00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:59,800
idealist.
So I want it's your, your time,

673
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,600
your it's a joy to be with you.
Tell us about the difference

674
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,120
between pan psychists and pure
idealist.

675
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,000
Yeah.
So, I mean, they are very, very

676
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,280
different versions of all of
them.

677
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,360
I've heard so many different
versions of panpsychism at this

678
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,520
point and so many different
versions of idealism that it can

679
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,280
get quite tricky to keep up with
a lot of them.

680
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,520
But in a nutshell, I mean, for
for the average listener or

681
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:31,480
viewer, panpsychism is, is
considering possible entities

682
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:37,080
that exist to be mined,
fundamentally mined and each of

683
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:42,440
them, so let's say for example,
this microphone has elementary

684
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,120
particles, each element within
them have sort of a layer of

685
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:46,840
consciousness.
If you sort of think of

686
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,280
integrated information theory,
they're almost taking a, a pan

687
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,760
psychist approach to trying to
figure out consciousness, except

688
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,280
they are fundamentally
physicalist moving upward, but

689
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,800
they are giving A level of fight
to everything moving down.

690
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,480
So so it's almost a pan psychist
approach in that sense.

691
00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:06,280
And I think that's the most
basic way to try and explain

692
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,640
panpsychism.
When speaking to Philip, I asked

693
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,160
him, I mean, I asked him how at
what point does a panpsychist

694
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,120
separate from an idealist?
And I think we're an idealist

695
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,360
changes the views is that
everything fundamentally comes

696
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,320
from within.
It's not necessarily a

697
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,240
solipsistic.
I I thought it's not a lot of

698
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:26,960
people misinterpret that as
solipsism.

699
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,840
I mean, everything comes from my
mind specifically.

700
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,320
It's more that all it's mind
over matter.

701
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,920
Basically it's mind there.
There's no need to invoke a

702
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,960
physical reality in this case
because everything is mental.

703
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:43,280
When?
Sorry, do you?

704
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:44,120
Did you?
Understand.

705
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,200
No, just to mention just quickly
to the listeners that there are

706
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,880
pan psychists who are dualists,
which means they think there is

707
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,400
something.
We don't know what it is, but it

708
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,920
has consciousness, the term
having consciousness.

709
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:02,360
And that is where also the the
the difference is does it have

710
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,080
consciousness or is it
consciousness?

711
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,560
So if it has consciousness, it
means it's kind of a dualist.

712
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,840
And many pan psychics were
dualists saying OK, everything

713
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:18,240
has consciousness including the
most elementary particles.

714
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,760
I find it fascinating that I
still think dualism is the most

715
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,280
common view people have the the
non philosopher slash non

716
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,840
scientist.
It's it's fascinating because

717
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,120
you, you don't want to let go of
the fact that there must be

718
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,480
something extra to you.
There is a body and there is a

719
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,360
mind, so there must be mind and
matter.

720
00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:42,760
So a lot, most people growing up
start off as as duelists.

721
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,320
And I think when Descartes
thought that at the time, I mean

722
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,360
very profound.
But today, if you ask the

723
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,200
average person on the streets, I
mean, what do you think?

724
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,480
Most people are duelists.
So when when a panpsychist,

725
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,000
you're right, you're absolutely
correct.

726
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,400
A lot of panpsychists are
duelists.

727
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,960
They're almost hidden duelists.
They're just, it's it's almost a

728
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,520
a disguise.
But but there are some very

729
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,960
coherent.
I mean, I mean, Philip says that

730
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,160
if panpsychism was not his
choice, I remember him one

731
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,200
saying he'd then go for
illusionism because of the fact

732
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,880
that the the, the way the
arguments are set out and laid

733
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,760
out, he thinks that it makes the
most sense coherently.

734
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,000
So it's fascinating how a pan
psychist, I mean, him and

735
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:27,840
Frankish have their own podcast
together.

736
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,880
Yeah, these two guys have
completely different views.

737
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,720
One's calling consciousness,
phenomenal consciousness

738
00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:39,280
specifically an illusion.
And the other one is saying, no,

739
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,680
everything we experience is
fundamentally mind, but in a

740
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,480
different way from an idealist.
But yeah, I think these two, pan

741
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,600
psychism and idealism are
growing though these are

742
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,080
definitely views that are are
reaching higher numbers.

743
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,520
More people are starting to join
this this group of thinkers.

744
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,680
And it's great because the more
we challenge each view and the

745
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,520
more people we have doing it,
the more what we're doing as

746
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,920
podcasters trying to figure out
this mind body problem, it'll

747
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:08,680
help.
I think it can.

748
00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:11,240
It can only do good for us.
Wonderful.

749
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,240
I had a great time with Philip
Goff and I asked him in it, you

750
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:21,320
know, how does this aspect of
individual consciousness emerge?

751
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:26,000
Is it like a fairy dust suddenly
with infinite number of

752
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:30,640
individual conscious units?
And then we have the combination

753
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,520
problem.
How does individual units come

754
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,360
together to create a palette of
consciousness which is much more

755
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,520
sophisticated and the higher
consciousness which suddenly can

756
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:46,560
see itself, experience itself,
know that it is conscious as we

757
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,880
have in the humans?
He, he responded that he thinks

758
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,200
it's fields mostly, you know,
mostly kind of fields.

759
00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:59,240
And this is where we have the
difference between pan psychist

760
00:43:59,240 --> 00:44:02,920
and idealist.
True idealist would say it's not

761
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:09,000
fields, it's one field.
So it's one consciousness and

762
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,280
that one consciousness.
Then you have to have all the

763
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,440
problems of decombination.
And I had, I had also a

764
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,120
discussion with Castrope.
You know, you've I don't know if

765
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:27,520
you you had and you know, I
asked him, OK, this is the one I

766
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,720
1 field and how does it become
many?

767
00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:37,400
And he said practically, he said
it's a brute fact because we see

768
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:42,800
it as many, but there is an
explanatory gap there which is

769
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:47,880
still not answered that comes
into the cons of such kind of

770
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:53,800
explanation.
And So what our task will be is

771
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,600
whether we take this or that, we
have to explain the other

772
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,680
because we know we have
consciousness and we see the

773
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,560
physical as real.
So if we start with

774
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:09,080
consciousness, then we have to
explain how the physical

775
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,600
emerges.
And if we can, why does it

776
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,520
emerge?
And if we can, is there a

777
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:21,360
meaning to it that takes us to a
little bit of teleology and

778
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:28,040
telos and meaning, which is, you
know, a different layer of

779
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,720
investigation.
But we ultimately have to get to

780
00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:35,680
that because all we're doing is
trying to make sense of where we

781
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,520
are, where we're going.
That's why you do your podcast.

782
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,200
It's like, hey, guys, why are we
here?

783
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,520
What are we doing?
You know, is it my

784
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,600
consciousness, my body?
What do, how do they talk to

785
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,800
each other?
What's the meaning of it all?

786
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,160
And so that's why I wrote my
book One Unbounded Ocean of

787
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:59,680
Consciousness in order to kind
of find this this kind of

788
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:06,720
building reality from 1 ultimate
reality, which is the most

789
00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:11,120
simple, the most parsimonious
possible, which is consciousness

790
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,800
in a sense and consciousness as
a non physical reality.

791
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,320
Yes.
I mean, it's to me, it's

792
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,600
getting, there's so many
different versions of this that

793
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,680
I think it's Galen Strauss.
And I know I was speaking to

794
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,040
Noam Chomsky again because we
did it around 2:00 and and where

795
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,320
he where he was talking about
how this young philosopher,

796
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,200
Galen Strossen.
And then I started realizing I'm

797
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,920
I'm very young because if no one
is talking about Galen is a

798
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:42,040
young, I'm way too young to be
having this conversation.

799
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,120
But you're amazing.
Thanks so much, Tony.

800
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:46,320
I appreciate that.
Yeah.

801
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,880
So Galen's a mysterious at this
point.

802
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,640
I mean, I'm, I'm slowly moving
towards that.

803
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:56,120
I must say, the more I mean you,
you have such logical arguments

804
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,560
Bernardo has such, with his
analytical idealism, such

805
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:01,360
intriguing, fascinating
thoughts.

806
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,280
You've got someone like Donald,
you've got people like Anil,

807
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,800
Christophe, all of these people
working on so many different

808
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:08,760
theories.
To me.

809
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,920
I, I doubt the fact that humans
are capable of doing this at

810
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,160
this point.
I'm starting to wonder that, I

811
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,680
mean, all my physicalist
intuitions have completely been

812
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,880
obliterated at this point.
The more I read about quantum

813
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:23,720
mechanics.
I mean, if you take it down to a

814
00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:29,560
Max Planck length of we don't
know what's below that, we don't

815
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:31,800
know what's beyond what we can't
see at this point.

816
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,320
If we think the universe is 13.8
billion light years, why don't

817
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:36,720
we don't know what's beyond
that?

818
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,840
We're hoping something like
James Webb will explain things

819
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:41,200
like this.
It's not going to happen.

820
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,480
Multiverses, you know, take
marks, different universes and.

821
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:48,360
Maybe we're going to see
something new.

822
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,760
And to me, I think we'll
definitely find something new.

823
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,040
The only problem is every time
we put a plank on this bridge,

824
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,560
there's just more ocean
continuing.

825
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,480
I mean, an ocean of unknown
consciousness.

826
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,600
We're just going to continue to
put planks slowly trying to walk

827
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,280
over that bridge, trying to
figure out what's going on.

828
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,280
And I'm worried that even though
my podcast is primarily it's

829
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,560
called mind body solution
because the goal is to find a

830
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:15,400
solution to the mind body
problem.

831
00:48:15,720 --> 00:48:19,040
That's, that's my goal.
However, I did not think

832
00:48:19,240 --> 00:48:21,240
personally we are going to find
it.

833
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:24,360
What I do want though, and what
I've made very explicit in my

834
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:29,120
podcast is I, I want to take one
step closer to the mind body

835
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,400
solution because that's as far
as I think we're going to get.

836
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,760
I think that we're not going to
find this something that I do

837
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,000
think about often, though.
You're speaking about teleology

838
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,800
and telos, and for me, I'm more,
I'm more curious to see what

839
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,600
happens when artificial
intelligence does sort of reach

840
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,240
a point where we're no longer
able to differentiate between

841
00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:54,480
our consciousness and theirs.
Are we similar?

842
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,480
Are we not?
Do we switch this off?

843
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,600
Do we not?
The question then arises is were

844
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:05,440
we meant to have consciousness
or were we meant to be here to

845
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,800
invoke consciousness into
another species which is now

846
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,880
mechanistic in silicone, and is
that the way forward?

847
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,720
To me, that's a very fascinating
thought, very science fiction

848
00:49:15,720 --> 00:49:17,920
vibes.
But I do think that's a

849
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:22,400
possibility at this point.
At the rate we are exploring

850
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,600
technology, it's exponential.
I mean, I do think in in the

851
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,800
next 100 years, we're going to
have a sort of singularity with

852
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,800
technology and it's going to
cause a lot of chaos.

853
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,880
I think amid all the beauty,
we'll find out because that's

854
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,120
what we're searching for.
Obviously this this beautiful

855
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,320
experience.
And how do we explain it?

856
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:44,520
But yeah, I'm, I'm very
fascinated by that thought.

857
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:46,880
That's wonderful.
I think you asked this question

858
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:52,080
to Fresh in one of your podcast,
whether the next level of

859
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:56,520
evolution is actually the
artificial intelligence.

860
00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:00,640
Very, very sharp to ask, you
know, because they might be

861
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,120
higher.
And when we think of potential

862
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:08,520
extraterrestrials who have to
cross, you know, lifetimes, I

863
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:12,200
mean, light, light thousands and
millions of light years, if they

864
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,640
are to come to us, they might
probably be artificial

865
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,160
intelligence machines, but they
are conscious, probably, and

866
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,840
more conscious.
And they have bodies that are

867
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:27,760
not, you know, deteriorating or
that can rebuild themselves and

868
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:32,920
have almost immortal situations
and have greater intelligence.

869
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,880
So these are all, you know,
today part of science fiction.

870
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,480
But it's.
Potentially plausible.

871
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,680
It's a lot of science fiction
stories have become science of

872
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,000
today, so it's very plausible.
I'm not sure if you've watched

873
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:49,840
Tony.
Have you watched the movie Her?

874
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,680
I didn't, no SO.
It's basically the, I think it's

875
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,600
Joaquin Phoenix and Scarlett
Johansson is this artificial

876
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,440
intelligence partner that he
starts forming a relationship

877
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:02,400
with, but it's just a computer
program.

878
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,440
And slowly this artificial
intelligence continues to grow.

879
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,920
Learn more about the universe,
learn more about humans, learn

880
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:10,760
more about other artificial
intelligence.

881
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:14,000
Eventually all of them just kind
of connect to each other and

882
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,360
leave humanity completely, and
none of the humans know where

883
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,200
all of it's gone.
And it's just a phenomenon that

884
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,520
says because we won't be able to
understand.

885
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:24,120
You wonder?
Yeah.

886
00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:27,680
Intended us that's the problem.
Very interesting.

887
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:33,760
Well, I want to add potential
optimism and the sense of the

888
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:40,240
ultimate discovery.
I'd like to put my, my vision,

889
00:51:40,240 --> 00:51:44,920
my, let's call it paradigm to
the test with you because you're

890
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:51,000
so deep and acute in things.
And I've put it to the test with

891
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,480
a number of these great
thinkers.

892
00:51:53,920 --> 00:52:01,000
And I think I was so far
satisfied that it holds its own

893
00:52:01,720 --> 00:52:05,280
and maybe can be the actual
solution.

894
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:10,560
Now you can never prove, you
know that consciousness for, for

895
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,960
example, is all there is or
consciousness is primary.

896
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:20,560
But you can see it's explanatory
power, it's logic, if it makes

897
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:25,960
sense, if it is cogent and
coherent within itself.

898
00:52:26,720 --> 00:52:31,880
And then you can get what Cohn
likes to, to call closer to

899
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,760
truth.
He has this, this also this

900
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,360
podcast.
I, I had a discussion with him

901
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,120
and he said we can never get to
the ultimate truth.

902
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,200
That's why I call it closer to
truth.

903
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,160
One step closer to the mind.
As you exactly said and

904
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:53,360
beautifully said, time is
passing, so we're moving to the

905
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:58,920
idealist level of understanding.
The pan cycles also has to

906
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:03,760
explain what are these conscious
units, where do they come from?

907
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:08,280
How do they emerge, why they are
different and there is

908
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,560
multiplicity and they have to
face the combination problem

909
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,640
also.
And so there are these cons.

910
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:20,440
But one thing that is could be
considered is that if we have

911
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:26,600
consciousness and as Descartes
almost says in a nice way, that

912
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:30,240
actually it's the one thing we
can be 100% sure about.

913
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:35,520
Because if you get the Descartes
demon that is making giving you

914
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:39,520
all these illusions, one thing
that they cannot give you as an

915
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:43,160
illusion is that you think.
And that's where we have, I

916
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:48,560
think therefore I am.
And so if we have that, why can

917
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:52,000
we?
Why do we have to deny it to

918
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,800
other entities?
Because if that's the one thing

919
00:53:55,800 --> 00:54:00,400
we are sure about, why suddenly
we decide that we are the only

920
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,960
one who have it?
We might say we have it to a

921
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:08,480
large extent, maybe not to the
largest possible extent, but

922
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:10,960
others might have it to a lesser
extent.

923
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:16,320
And how do we, why should we so
pretentious as to deny it to

924
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,160
other things?
And that's where maybe pan

925
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:24,480
psychism comes into the picture.
However, it has its cons, it has

926
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,520
its limitations.
I feel like if we start with the

927
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,400
simplest possible starting
point, which is something that

928
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,720
is non physical, which means
it's already beyond time and

929
00:54:35,720 --> 00:54:40,120
space, which means almost, you
cannot say where does it start,

930
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:43,600
where does it end?
Because it's not a bound bound

931
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,200
within space and time.
Because space and time don't

932
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:50,400
even exist and it doesn't
require some energy that comes

933
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:54,160
from somewhere.
It's just consciousness, which

934
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:58,840
is outside the framework of our
understanding of the physical,

935
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,680
the temporal, the arrow of time,
and all of that.

936
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:05,760
Then we're starting with the
most simple idealist.

937
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,240
That is the extreme idealist
level.

938
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,720
Now the question is, how does
this become multiplicity from

939
00:55:12,720 --> 00:55:15,960
oneness?
So, and how does the universe

940
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:19,960
actually emerge and why?
And yeah.

941
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,400
It, it, it becomes, it becomes
very difficult to answer at that

942
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:25,560
point.
And I think a lot of the

943
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,640
difficult aspects of that is, is
that we've grown up so

944
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,960
fundamentally physicalist in
general.

945
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,400
It's so hard to step out of this
physical world and try and

946
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:41,080
explain a universe that has no
quarks, no bosons, there's no

947
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,480
fermions, there's nothing around
to talk about.

948
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:45,920
I mean, if you are a pan
psychist and you're talking

949
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:50,920
about sort of waves and
vibrations and or if you're an

950
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:55,440
idealist talking about one
single vibration, it, it becomes

951
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:59,600
very difficult to make theories
that we can test that's

952
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:01,720
replicable.
And I think that's where a lot

953
00:56:01,720 --> 00:56:03,720
of physicalists come with this
problem.

954
00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:06,360
Because as you're talking about
this explanatory gap, if a

955
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:10,920
theory can predict things in
science, that becomes the most

956
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,360
plausible scientific theory we
go with.

957
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:18,400
But the problem then comes in is
scientism is also in itself a

958
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,200
philosophy.
It's a philosophical outlook.

959
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:24,560
You can't, you can't justify
most of your opinions on that.

960
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:30,160
But for me, the idealist view is
very convincing in the sense

961
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:35,840
that when you look at reality,
it is all you experience.

962
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:39,000
I mean, you don't have access to
another person's consciousness.

963
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:43,040
The only red I know is the red
I've seen and, and I'll never

964
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:46,480
know anyone else's red.
I'll never be able to experience

965
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:48,440
it.
I'll never be able to talk about

966
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:52,080
it as a neurocorrelate because
no two people ever experienced

967
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:55,600
the same kind of red.
So to me, that's a very

968
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:59,840
plausible way to talk about this
if you want to go with the all

969
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:03,040
mind approach.
And the the only problem then

970
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:06,920
comes in is when two people who
used to see something similarly

971
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,600
as red, suddenly one of them
changed because of a brain

972
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:11,680
injury.
Then you're now stuck with this

973
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:13,680
dilemma, OK, how did this
happen?

974
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,280
Why did it affect it?
And now you have to ask the

975
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,280
question, is there a physical
aspect to this?

976
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:22,040
Dualism to me is the least
convincing.

977
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,640
I mean, they, I don't see this
separation.

978
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:28,440
I see them as fundamentally
bound somehow, whether it's

979
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:32,240
ideally bound as an idealist or
pan psychist sort of all built

980
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:35,360
up or whether it is just all
material, I don't know.

981
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:40,280
But for me, I think dualism is
just not, not not on the, on the

982
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:42,440
playing cards.
I'm no longer looking at that as

983
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,160
a, as a, as a reference source
anymore.

984
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:47,440
But yeah, I for me it's, it's,
it's tough.

985
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,640
They're all fascinating views
and I'm, I'm on the fence with

986
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:55,400
all of them at this point.
I'm, I'm hoping one of them are

987
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:57,440
right.
Just like you.

988
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,800
I'm very optimistic and I'm
hoping we're one day going to

989
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:02,680
find this and hopefully we're
alive to see it.

990
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,680
Tony, I don't know.
I mean, you could be right and

991
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:08,240
this could all be just this
unbound ocean of consciousness

992
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:12,360
we're experiencing.
And years will come, and at some

993
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:15,240
point we're all going to
realize, I mean, he was right.

994
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:20,520
The time will tell.
Yes, I haven't of course

995
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,320
explained it yet and we're just
starting point I've.

996
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:27,080
Watched and read some of it, so
I I get the some of it, but

997
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,520
there's a lot that I'm sure if
we had a deeper discussion you'd

998
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:32,320
be able to convince me even
more.

999
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:35,840
I mean very beautiful work.
I think we have some some

1000
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:40,160
planned discussion in a couple
of days, then maybe we can take

1001
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:42,600
that if you like and challenge
it.

1002
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:45,680
When I have you on my show, I
mean, that's obviously going to

1003
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:49,320
be my goal is to dissect your
theory of consciousness because

1004
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:52,160
that that's fundamentally what
what my podcast is about.

1005
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:56,040
It's trying to get you to have a
platform where you're allowed to

1006
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:58,480
talk about your theory without
me debating.

1007
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:00,480
So it's, it's never a debate for
me.

1008
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:02,440
It's I've always told the
guests, this is you an

1009
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:06,680
opportunity for you to display
and portray this theory as

1010
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:09,040
openly as possible.
And I try and do my best to ask

1011
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:13,880
questions that are direct and as
well researched as possible so

1012
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:17,120
that they don't have to have the
trouble of explaining basic

1013
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:19,520
concepts to the viewer or the
listener.

1014
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:22,840
The assumption is always that
the listener, viewer is coming

1015
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:26,000
to this podcast with some
knowledge of philosophy or

1016
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:27,720
neuroscience, psychology,
whatever.

1017
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,600
So yeah, so when you're on my
show, it's definitely just going

1018
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:34,040
to be about me trying to
understand your view a lot more.

1019
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,440
You do a great job.
It's really a delight to to

1020
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:42,040
watch your podcast and that's
why you've attracted great

1021
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:46,720
thinkers and scientists, I mean.
I think your, your open mind,

1022
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:50,200
even though you do have your
view of consciousness and what

1023
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:53,520
you believe in and it hasn't
changed, I still think that the

1024
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:55,680
fact that you're able to
communicate with these people

1025
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,520
openly have amazing discourse.
I mean, it's, it's an incredible

1026
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:00,760
thing.
And I think that's what we need

1027
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:05,160
more of and why it's it's
important for us to have these

1028
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:08,560
podcasts because the the more
people have access to it, the

1029
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:11,640
more this discussion will
continue to grow and flourish.

1030
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:16,600
Wonderful.
And if physicalism is reality or

1031
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:20,080
consciousness is reality, they
have a different outcomes on a

1032
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:24,680
utilitarian level, you know and
that is, you know, are we here

1033
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:28,360
to accumulate from the physical
level or there is something more

1034
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:30,360
on the consciousness level to
develop?

1035
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:35,280
Are we going to use more the
physical means of resolving

1036
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:39,040
issues or we have to resort to
conscious means?

1037
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:43,320
Our consciousness means, you
know, you know, and, and, and

1038
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:46,920
when the First World War came,
then the League of Nation came

1039
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:50,800
out to say that this is the war
that will end all wars.

1040
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,720
And it didn't.
And then when, you know, it

1041
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:59,400
again happened, World War 2,
then it came the the UNESCO and

1042
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:03,400
United Nations and then the
charter, they said that wars are

1043
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:07,440
happening in the mind of men,
which means humans, of course,

1044
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:11,320
gender indiscriminate.
Yeah, exactly.

1045
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:17,480
And and that is the recognition
that actually something happens

1046
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,680
in the mind.
But some will tell you the mind

1047
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:23,880
is a product of
neurotransmitters, etcetera, and

1048
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,280
the physical of your food, of
your thinking.

1049
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:30,040
But we know from technologies of
the mind, you know, in

1050
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:33,320
particular Transcendental
Meditation, for example, which I

1051
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:38,520
practice and I teach and other
techniques of yoga and like

1052
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:42,160
that, that's through the mind
and integration between mind and

1053
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:44,400
body.
We can change also the

1054
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:48,120
Physiology through the mind
through through diving into

1055
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:52,200
consciousness.
So if people's awareness opens

1056
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,600
is people's work on
consciousness and accept

1057
01:01:55,600 --> 01:02:01,600
consciousness and are able to
relate with each other as

1058
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:06,040
conscious beings, we might have
different approach to solving

1059
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:13,520
problems than resorting to war
and strife and killing and

1060
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:15,200
destruction.
I agree with that.

1061
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:19,000
I think that a lot of the
physicalist theories come from a

1062
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:21,560
very much westernized version of
thinking.

1063
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:24,880
Whereas when you look at the
East, most of the theories are

1064
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:28,040
very much come from an almost
idealist, pan psychic sort of

1065
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:31,280
view.
And it does affect the practices

1066
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:33,600
'cause you can notice the big
difference between the West

1067
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:36,360
colonizing the rest versus the
East.

1068
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:40,680
Even though they, they had their
own wars and were fighting, they

1069
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:43,000
were practicing a lot of
meditation, a lot of

1070
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:46,840
Transcendental Meditation, a lot
of thinking cognitively,

1071
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:49,280
engaging with themselves, not
with others.

1072
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:52,240
And, and I think it does show
that there's a difference in the

1073
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:54,480
way they approach life.
You can tell that there's a

1074
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,000
fundamental difference in the
way they approach war, the way

1075
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:01,080
they approach many things.
So I do think it does have

1076
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:05,360
practical implications because
if we're all preparing for war,

1077
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:08,800
perhaps a physicalist
westernized version will start

1078
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:12,320
prepping the guns, prepping all
of the firepower, whereas they

1079
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:13,880
meditate this.
And the thinkers who are

1080
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,080
panpsychist ideas might sit
down, try and cognitively engage

1081
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:19,720
with this issue, try and figure
out a solution in a different

1082
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:21,960
way.
So I, I completely agree in that

1083
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:24,880
sense that they are very much
practical outcomes here and it

1084
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:28,160
will affect ethics, it will
affect morals, values.

1085
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:30,520
So it's important that we figure
out this problem.

1086
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:33,040
Yeah, absolutely.
What you're doing is great

1087
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:37,800
responsibility, reasons why we
do things, why there is sin, why

1088
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:41,280
there is fighting, why there is
suffering, why there is

1089
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:44,000
happiness.
We have to put it all together.

1090
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:47,440
It's wonderful to be with you.
One hour has passed.

1091
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:49,840
I don't know if you would like
to say something.

1092
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:52,240
You expected me to cover some
point.

1093
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:55,360
We're happy to go in any
direction.

1094
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,280
I think no.
Well, most of well, thanks.

1095
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:02,120
First of all, I mean, it's been
really amazing chatting to you.

1096
01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:06,240
It's great to speak to someone
who has similar interests and

1097
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:08,560
even in the medical field.
I mean, you've gone through,

1098
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:12,040
you've done a lot of things that
I'm going through currently and

1099
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:15,000
similar parts medicine and then
philosophy.

1100
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:18,720
It's great to to have people out
there doing the same thing.

1101
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:25,240
For me, it's all about asking
questions, having a curious

1102
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:28,240
mindset, just constantly this
passionate curiosity.

1103
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:31,600
Try and figure out the deeper
layer, the deeper meaning of

1104
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:33,120
reality.
And I've been doing this since I

1105
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:37,400
was a child.
I tried my best not to allow

1106
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,400
dogma to affect me, even though
I'm not immune.

1107
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:44,080
Whether it's religion, whether
it's spirituality, certain

1108
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:47,720
thoughts from science school,
you can get indoctrinated by

1109
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,200
anything.
And for me, it's all about

1110
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:51,960
trying to keep that open
mindset.

1111
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:55,560
And even while interviewing a
guest who I fundamentally

1112
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:58,960
disagree with, let's say perhaps
we're talking free will.

1113
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:03,000
And if someone is a
libertarianist and I'm, for

1114
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:05,720
example, a compatibilist, I'm
not.

1115
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:07,480
But I'm just giving you an
example.

1116
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:10,200
Even with you will, I'm I'm very
agnostic at this point.

1117
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:13,960
I often say I'm ontologically
agnostic about the nature of

1118
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:18,120
reality, but epistemologically I
don't believe most of the

1119
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:22,400
stories.
So yeah, it's, it's it's a, it's

1120
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:27,080
a curiosity slash skepticism.
I try and keep that skepticism

1121
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:30,040
so I can try to ask better
questions.

1122
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:34,040
And I think that's the goal with
Mind Body Solution is for me to

1123
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:37,560
try and ask better questions by
being skeptical while still

1124
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:41,240
respecting the guests and
allowing them to to portray

1125
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:44,720
their view as openly as possible
without feeling as if this is a

1126
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:47,200
debate.
And yeah, I'm enjoying it so

1127
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:48,600
much.
It's changed my views.

1128
01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:51,560
It's changed the way I think
about consciousness, free will,

1129
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:55,400
morality, spirituality.
It's it's been an amazing

1130
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:57,440
journey.
And I think you will also

1131
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,200
experience it.
I mean, you have probably

1132
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:01,760
experienced so much growth from
this.

1133
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:04,200
It's wonderful having these
Jets.

1134
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:06,680
And I thank you so much for
having one with me as well.

1135
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:08,880
And you're doing absolutely
great.

1136
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:12,080
Of course, if we come with
yellow glasses, how can we see

1137
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:15,200
the other colors?
So we have to know how to clean

1138
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:19,960
up our glasses, remove them, sit
back and be open to all

1139
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:23,960
possibilities.
And the dogma is often an

1140
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:27,960
obstacle to progress.
Although people have their

1141
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:31,720
rules, their ways of living,
their habits, their traditions,

1142
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:37,320
their even belief systems, that
comes from for them a power that

1143
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:41,440
is all knowing.
And that's fine even that maybe

1144
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:44,720
they are right.
And for those who want to ask

1145
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:48,200
questions, they just sit and
discuss and see from this

1146
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:50,120
perspective, from that
perspective.

1147
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:54,880
And that's how we can get closer
to the ultimate reality and its

1148
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:58,480
implications on our life.
Thank you so much, Tony.

1149
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:01,800
It was an absolute pleasure.
I really really enjoyed this

1150
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:04,120
conversation.
Thank you for your time.

1151
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:05,560
Thanks, Tony.