Suzanne Gildert: Can We Engineer Consciousness? Quantum Physics, Robotics & Conscious AI Technology

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Consciousness has kind of
different definitions, which is

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why it's so slippery.
There's I like to think of the

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the what, why, how framework for
this.

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So there's like, what is
consciousness?

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And I think that's easy for
almost everyone to explain or

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understand because it comprises
of two things.

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It's like our subjective
awareness of being us.

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So the idea is it feels like
something to be you.

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That's the definition of
consciousness.

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And you can break that into two
components.

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There's the subjective
experience we have that feels

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like we're kind of living in a
virtual reality world all the

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time.
And then there's a feeling of

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free will, like we have a
feeling we can choose something

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we're actively choosing.
So those two things together, I

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think, are the what of
consciousness.

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But then where consciousness
gets tricky is it's the why and

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the how.
So this the why is like, why do

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we have it?
You know what, why aren't we

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just going through the world
like an automated machine

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without any subjects or
experience, without any feeling

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of choice if everything's fully
deterministic.

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So that's like the question of
why what, what on earth is it

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for?
And then the question of how is

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even more complicated.
So now even if you can answer

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the question why, which is,
well, maybe this is where this

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purposeful or teleological
universe thing comes in, There's

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still the question of how, how
is it doing it?

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And then that gets really into
the, the physics and the

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philosophy and the, I guess the
engineering if you're trying to

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build it.
Suzanne, if you watch the show,

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so I'm assuming you know that
one of my favorite questions to

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us all, my guests, what is your
understanding of the mind body

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problem?
And throughout the history,

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philosophically and
scientifically, have you had to

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tell me about your journey
within this field and the

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understanding of the mind body
problem?

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How have your views changed over
time and LED you up to where you

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are today?
Well, that's a.

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That's a super cool question.
I think originally I didn't

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think there was a problem.
I used to be a proponent of

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what's called strong AI
hypothesis.

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So I just thought, you know, as
science advances, as we

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understand more and more about
AI and building neural Nets and

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things like that, consciousness
and the mind will just sort of

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pop out of it and we won't have
to worry about it.

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Although I did always have this
concerning the back of my head

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about the whole basically this
problem of can you upload your

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consciousness?
Like can you, can you go on?

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And I used to have like a fear
of death and stuff like this.

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So it was, it was a little bit
concerned about it, but I

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figured, oh, strong AI will
prevail and we'll, we'll finally

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figure out what the mind is.
But I completely shifted my

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opinion on this over the last
few years.

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And the primary reason was I was
trying to build AI minds into

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robots.
So I was trying to actually put

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all the pieces together that
would then result in something

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that was conscious.
And through trying to do that, I

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just found that, you know, I
didn't understand anything about

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this.
No one I spoke to understood

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much about it.
And I figured there are some

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missing pieces.
And that's when I started moving

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away from the what you might
call the strong AI on the

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materialist hypothesis and
exploring some other options

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and.
And when you, I mean, your

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journey is quite fascinating.
You're very familiar with

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quantum physics and then also
artificial intelligence and you

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managed to link and bridge these
especially with your company

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with Novanic consciousness
technologies, which we will

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touch on.
But from your experience, when

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you look at it and you look at
people's general understanding

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of the mind body problem, you
noticed that I mean, there's

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pretty much a very dualist,
ingrained dualism in a lot of

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people's thought processes.
When you talk to people about

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this and you tell them, OK,
listen, we're trying to build

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conscious AI, we're trying to
actually do this, what usually

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what, what's the usual response
you get?

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Yeah, interesting.
So usually the response, the

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first response I get is fear for
most people.

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So most people are scared of the
idea of conscious AI.

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They have this idea in their
mind that if, if, if a system

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wakes up and AI or robot wakes
up, it will, it will suddenly,

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you know, have its own goals and
desires, which is true.

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But then for some reason, those
goals and desires will

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automatically not be aligned
with humanity or with theirs and

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therefore that thing will become
malevolent or like bad for us.

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So that's usually the first
response I get when I talk about

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conscious AI.
And then I, you have to spend a

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lot of time on picking why
people think this.

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And it often just comes from
watching a lot of dystopian

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sci-fi movies or having an
inherent fear of the unknown or

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fear of the other.
But when you actually start

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talking about like diving into
what consciousness is, what it

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does for us and why I think it's
a force for good in the

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universe, then people tend to
like walk a little bit back on

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that.
And they're like, OK, OK, I'll,

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I'll, you know, I'll think a
little bit more deeply about

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this.
And I mean, the field has grown

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so much since.
If you think about someone like

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Isaac Asimov when he, when he
spoke about the three rules for

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robots and, and one, I mean, I
can't remember exactly word for

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word, but I mean, and a robot
should never harm a human.

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And then he goes on to the
second three.

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It's become so much more
complicated than that.

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Since then.
The world of artificial

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intelligence has changed so
much.

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Even if you look back at GBT one
versus I mean 5 today, it's such

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a leap in, in understanding.
Do you think that is these

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concepts trying to understand
not just consciousness, but AI

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in itself for the, for the
layperson or the average person

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is just something that is just
not computable.

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This is not something that a
human mind can really adapt to

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if they're not fully ingrained
in this field.

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That's interesting.
So I think that the answer to

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that is no.
I think everyone can understand

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this.
And I actually, what I find in

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talking to people is people that
have no scientific background,

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no training in technology, AI,
anything, often have a more

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intuitive grasp of consciousness
than people who have worked in

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say computer science or physics
or robotics for a long time.

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And the reason is, is I think
people in AI try to overthink

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it.
They try and put all these

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metaphors on like the brain is a
computer, it's using logic

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gates, blah, blah, blah.
Whereas someone that knows

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nothing about that has these
different views on

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consciousness, like they think
everything, everything is

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connected.
A lot of people are very

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spiritual.
They believe that all living

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beings are kind of connected to
each other and we exist in

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harmony with nature and
consciousness is something about

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our spirit or our soul.
And so a lot of these ideas that

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now what's being called post
materialism is touching on is

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actually closer to what most
people really think about

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consciousness than what the
scientists and, and the

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technologists think.
So I, I almost think it's like

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we're going back to the common
sense view here.

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And I think everyone can
understand and do science on

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their own consciousness.
All you need to do is become

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mindful or just kind of become
aware of how your own mind is

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working.
So everyone is really a

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scientist when it comes to the
first person science of

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consciousness.
That's true.

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I mean that first person and
subjective phenomenological

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experience is the only
experience we actually have

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access to.
So it is quite, it is then

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difficult to to almost, let's
say predict if something else is

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conscious if you're looking at
it.

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I mean, the philosophical zombie
argument always comes into play.

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I mean, how do we tell if
someone else or something else

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is conscious?
I mean, me looking at you, I can

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assume that you are conscious.
Hopefully a lot of AI zoom

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meetings occur nowadays.
So it's it's, it's, it's

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becoming a lot more difficult.
But with that being said, let's

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start with something basic.
One of your quotes, I think was

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consciousness is a fundamental
property of matter, the result

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of an undiscovered, purposeful
law of nature.

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Do you want to elaborate on that
before we begin?

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Yeah, I'd like to just define
what you think consciousness is

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and then, right.
Right, right.

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Yeah.
So I think consciousness has

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kind of different definitions,
which is why it's so slippery.

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There's I like to think of the
the what, why, how framework for

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this.
So there's like what is

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consciousness?
And I think that's easy for

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almost everyone to explain or
understand because it comprises

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of two things.
It's like our subjective

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awareness of being us.
So the idea is it feels like

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something to be you.
That's the definition of

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consciousness.
And you can break that into two

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components.
There's the subjective

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experience we have that feels
like we're kind of living in a

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virtual reality world all the
time.

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And then there's a feeling of
free will, like we have a

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feeling we can choose something
we're actively choosing.

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So those two things together, I
think are the what of

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consciousness.
But then where consciousness

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gets tricky is it's the why and
the how.

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So this the why is like, why do
we have it?

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You know, why aren't we just
going through the world like an

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automated machine without any
subjects of experience, without

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any feeling of choice if
everything's fully

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deterministic.
So that's like the question of

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why, what, what, what on earth
is it for?

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And then the question of how is
even more complicated.

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So now even if you can answer
the question why, which is,

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well, maybe this is where this
purposeful or teleological

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universe thing comes in.
There's still the question of

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how, how is it doing it?
And then that gets really deep

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into the, the physics and the
philosophy and the, I guess the

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engineering if you're trying to
build it as well.

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But I think the easiest way of
saying what is consciousness is

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it feels like something to be
you.

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Yeah, so it goes.
It takes us back to Tom Nagel.

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I mean, what is it like to?
Yeah.

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That's right.
That's right.

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So it is the beingness of, of
experience actually that is that

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conscious experience.
Something I did take note of

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today.
I was on the website for the

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Science of Consciousness
conference and I noticed that

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you've added to the list as well
as as.

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Yeah, that's right, that's
right.

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Yeah.
Tell me about that.

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What's happening, What's
happening there and what can we

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expect?
Just just as a brief side note.

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Yeah, so I got, well, I've been
in touch with Stuart Hameroff

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quite a lot.
We've been talking a lot about

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quantum consciousness things and
I think he wanted to add me to

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the roster because there's a
sort of like an underground

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subculture within consciousness
research of people who are fans

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of quantum consciousness.
I, I like lovingly call them the

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quantum weirdos club because you
know, everyone hates some

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quantum consciousness and
everyone like like there's a lot

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of derogatory stuff goes on, but
I personally think it's worth

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exploring scientifically.
So you know, I call as the

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quantum weirdos club.
Anyway, I think like Stuart was

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maybe looking for a like in
addition to this because there's

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a few people that talk about
quantum consciousness, but it's

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mostly from either a theoretical
point of view, like your own

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Boost Meyer and people like
that, or it's from a very

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biological point of view.
Like let's understand how

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microtubules work, like Anaban,
people like that.

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So I think there's a bit of a
gap in the middle for a project

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that's quite what I'm doing,
which is trying to understand it

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computationally and practically.
So forget about like

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microtubules or the exact
mechanisms that might work in

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the brain.
Can we have a computer model,

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quantum computing model that
actually starts exploring it and

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connecting it to embodied
systems?

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So I think that's the reason
Stuart got interested in having

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me do a do a talk, like it was
sort of filling the gap.

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And for you as someone who's a
fan of this field, because

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you're also just like me, when
you look at these great thinkers

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and all the people that you're
now associated with in that

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list, because there are quite a
few legends on that list.

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And, and it's going to be so
epic to sort of watch this.

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I'm I'm I'm hopefully I'm
attending as well.

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So I might see you there and
that would.

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Be great.
Yeah.

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And then hopefully we can have
some side podcasts on the side.

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But, but when that day comes, I
mean it, it, how exciting is

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this, that to not just be part
of this, but to interact with

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some of these great thinkers
who, who sort of align with your

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view at this point and, and the
new view that you've sort of

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came to towards the latest
stages of your, of your life.

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Yeah, I mean, it's really great.
Like I love being amongst people

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that also will take this
scientific hypothesis seriously

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and not just dismiss it.
Of course, you have to make sure

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you don't end up in an echo
chamber where you've just made

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friends with all the people that
agree with you.

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But I think science of
consciousness is great for that

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because it isn't in that
direction.

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It like the majority of people
there are not quantum

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consciousness advocates.
They're actually I'd say there's

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maybe about like 10 to 20% of
the quantum underground.

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So it's definitely not an echo
chamber like most of the people

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I talk to are.
I'm in the minority view and I'm

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constantly trying to convince
them that this is interesting

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scientifically.
So, but talking to some of

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these, some of the people that
I'm, I'm meeting now learning

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about like how Federico Fijian,
obviously Stuart, Roger Penrose

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and Hartman Evan, but there's
kind of a, a, a growing list of

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people now that are starting to
take this more seriously.

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And yeah, it's just it's just
great to be amongst those

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people, learn about them and
hopefully collaborate with some

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of them in the future.
I think you guys definitely

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will.
I mean, these when I spoke,

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there are quite a few people who
are unhappy about this

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conference, this year's theme,
and quite a few people who are

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very excited about it.
I mean, I've spoken to a few

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people who hate the idea that
this is this has become the

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theme.
I mean, as you said, the quantum

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Mia does it's, it's, it's a
thing and particularly within

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the materialist.
Hope I'm not offending anyone by

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Colin.
No, no, I mean I'm pretty sure

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in a.
Humorous self.

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Derogatory one, just a
disclaimer for everyone.

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She we mean this in the great
and with all due respect to to

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the field and to those exploring
it, this has become far more

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than the pseudoscientific
venture as what most materialist

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thinkers would assume it is.
And I know this because coming

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back from where I started as
very much materialist thinker,

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not to say that now I believe
that quantum consciousness is

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the future, but the respect I
have and the admiration I have

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for so many of the scientists
exploring this now and taking it

285
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seriously makes me take it
seriously.

286
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Yeah.
So I think it's and actually.

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00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:51,480
That's one really good thing
about quantum consciousness

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because it's sort of a Trojan
horse into the non materialist

289
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view.
So say even if quantum

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00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,360
consciousness is wrong, what
it's doing is it's actually

291
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highlighting a more important
philosophical shift, which is

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towards something like more of a
pan psychism or an idealism

293
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movement.
So you could be a pan psychist

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or an idealist and not have to
not be a quantum consciousness

295
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advocate.
But I think quantum

296
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consciousness is kind of like,
it's like opening a door.

297
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It's like opening a little crack
of light in the door that's then

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making people realize that there
are these other ways that you

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00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,400
can think about the universe.
You, you touch on these terms,

300
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,000
these philosophical terms,
idealism, panpsychism, we've got

301
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,560
materialism and many other
versions of the isms of

302
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,640
consciousness.
Where do you, if you had to

303
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,680
philosophically define your your
view on consciousness, where do

304
00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,560
you stand at this point?
Yeah, that's interesting because

305
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,800
it kind of wave between all of
them and I honestly think at

306
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:47,480
some point they'll all be
unified.

307
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,040
So I can see a kind of point in
time where all these different

308
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,560
philosophical standpoints or
metaphysical views actually

309
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,480
unify.
And so I think that's why I

310
00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,560
sometimes get confused when I'm
talking about this.

311
00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:05,040
I think the closest I am at the
moment is to what I'd call a how

312
00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:06,840
to describe it.
So at some point something on

313
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,120
social media that actually
described it really well, it was

314
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:14,360
like pan protopycism.
And I'd even append that,

315
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,960
although this is sounding
horribly long winded now as

316
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,840
teleological pan protopycism.
So let's break it down.

317
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So the pan psychism is the idea
that everything is conscious or

318
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,040
there's consciousness in
everything.

319
00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,800
Yes.
And so I agree with that, but I

320
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,720
think it also has specific
constraints to it.

321
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,600
So it's not like, you know, a
Pebble on the beach is having

322
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,120
like the great thoughts like
Plateau DID or anything like

323
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,360
that.
It's the, I think even things

324
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,280
like fundamental particles have
a tiny, tiny, tiny bit of

325
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,360
consciousness, but it's not
enough to make them have a rich

326
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,720
experience or to have a lot of
free will.

327
00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,880
So the way I think of things is
everything is made of

328
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,520
consciousness, but the things
that are made of tiny little

329
00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,880
pockets of it where it's
dissociated and isolated in a

330
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,120
tiny way don't have much
freedom.

331
00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,160
So that's why you don't see an
atom like deciding, oh, I'm just

332
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,440
going to hop out of this
molecule and go and do something

333
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,960
else today because it doesn't
have enough freedom to actually

334
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,120
be able to do that.
Whereas when you start pooling

335
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,680
matter together and in a very
specific way, that consciousness

336
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:23,280
starts to kind of agglomerate
and turn into something that has

337
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,400
now many different, different
modes.

338
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,240
It has a much richer experience
and it has more free will.

339
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,960
It has more freedom of choice.
So that's kind of like the the

340
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,000
pan proto psychism part.
And then the teleological part

341
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,320
is I believe that there's a kind
of underlying steering force in

342
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,960
the universe.
It's actually trying to achieve

343
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:43,520
some things.
So I think there's actually a

344
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,720
purpose for consciousness.
And what I think it's trying to

345
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:51,600
do is self replicate, expand and
have more conscious experience.

346
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,560
So it's a little bit like
Darwinism in the sense that

347
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:59,640
people think life wants to
reproduce, evolve, survive, but

348
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,560
this is a little bit like
turning that towards more of

349
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,599
mind.
So it's like mind wants to have

350
00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:07,680
more conscious experience in the
future.

351
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:12,359
So it it concisely steer the way
decisions are made in these

352
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:17,599
conscious systems through free
will to then actually make

353
00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:20,160
changes in the matter in the
world to make that happen.

354
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,440
If if you before I was I had a
question, but before I do, how

355
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,480
would you define free will?
Yeah, that's another slippery

356
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:28,880
subject.
Yeah.

357
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,560
I mean, this is exactly what
this podcast is for.

358
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,160
Oh, is to go down.
Exactly how do I So I don't

359
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,280
actually like the word free will
because it just makes everything

360
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,680
so confusing.
Like where's freedom coming

361
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,800
from, you know, and determinism
versus randomness and all this

362
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,760
kind of, I wish there was a
different word for it, but let's

363
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:47,360
just go with that because that's
all we have.

364
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:53,760
So I think free will is a kind
of intervention of a wider force

365
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:55,440
in the universe.
So I'm very aligned with

366
00:17:55,440 --> 00:18:00,840
Federico, if people are familiar
with his work, and I'm sure

367
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,560
others have kind of a similar
idea, this teleological universe

368
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,480
idea.
So imagine that there's a

369
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:12,440
function or something out there
that is not defined within a

370
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,400
small piece of matter that's
conscious, but it's like a wider

371
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,120
field.
But that field can act through

372
00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:21,040
the vehicle of this small piece
of consciousness.

373
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,520
So I think free will happens
when a piece of matter that's

374
00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,600
conscious, it's trying to decide
what to do, trying to decide

375
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,280
which action to take, and it
gets some information coming in

376
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,280
from this wider field.
And for some reason that I don't

377
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,080
understand, that makes it feel
like this piece of matter is

378
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,680
making a choice.
So is it free?

379
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,040
Well, no, not really.
Because now you're, you're

380
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,200
essentially just being like
moved around like a puppet by

381
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,320
this universal force.
So you're not in a way it's like

382
00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,200
less free than people normally
think of this free will.

383
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,240
Because it's not you, the
dissociated thing that's making

384
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,320
the choice, but it's this
universal force acting through

385
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:04,000
you that's making the choice.
But I guess like philosophical

386
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,480
advocates would that that that
buy into this would also say you

387
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,120
are that whole thing.
So you really are making the

388
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:11,440
choice.
But it so it gets a bit

389
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,920
complicated, but that's kind of
how I think.

390
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,200
When I spoke to Federico, he at
the during our conversation, I

391
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,320
think it was his first time he
explored this and named it

392
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:22,840
because he called it live
information.

393
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,520
So he was talking about like,
yeah, so the fact that this

394
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,760
occurs in this in this other
realm in between it, it, it's

395
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,240
something very much most
materialists find ineffable to

396
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,600
and they can't really put where
this is happening.

397
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,880
And a lot of the times you want
to have that spot where you can

398
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,760
just say, look, it's at this
point this becomes conscious.

399
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:42,560
So at this point, this has free
will.

400
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,360
And it's very much a difficult
thing to really do.

401
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:50,000
But when you mention so teleo,
teleo protopanpsychism,

402
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,440
teleological protopanpsychism,
is that what you call it?

403
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,440
Yeah, it's a horribly long word.
But during this teleological

404
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:02,680
protopanpsychism, do the
morphodynamics or the does the

405
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:08,000
teleological process, is it
affected only after it's reached

406
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,480
a certain level?
So let's say prior to the the

407
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,240
atom becoming, let's say a cell
is, is there a gap in between

408
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,720
where there's no sort of
teleological purpose or process

409
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,080
occurring?
And does that only occur after

410
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,960
it's really reached a certain
amount of complexity?

411
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:31,760
Yeah, So, OK, I think that the
teleology works at all levels,

412
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:36,040
OK, but I think it doesn't.
OK, let me try and give you an

413
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,560
analogy.
So imagine you're really, you're

414
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,120
really broke, you're really
poor.

415
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,720
You've got like $0.10 in your
pocket and that's it.

416
00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:47,400
So you can't really do much in
the world.

417
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:52,080
You use $0.10, you still have
some money, but you can't say

418
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,560
buy a house or like really like
steer your life and, and kind of

419
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,800
do anything.
Whereas if you had $1,000,000 in

420
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,680
your bank account, now you have
a lot more ability to kind of go

421
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,760
out and influence the world and
do things right.

422
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,440
So that's kind of how I think of
this teleology.

423
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,240
It's like even something like an
electron has a tiny bit of free

424
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,080
will ability to choose, but it's
so it's so limited and

425
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,840
restricted in that that it's
always going to choose the same

426
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,760
action every time because it
just has no power.

427
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:30,360
It has no kind of real like it's
trying to do what it should do

428
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:34,120
according to this kind of
universal purpose, but it can't

429
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:35,440
because it doesn't have a lot of
power.

430
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,760
Another example is like voting.
You know, if you have one vote,

431
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,320
how much can you change versus
if you go out and you amass a

432
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,600
group of people that now all
believe the same ideology,

433
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,080
they're all going to align their
votes now and now you have a lot

434
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,840
more power.
So this is how I think of of

435
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,000
this.
So, yeah, sure, an electron has

436
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,360
free will, but it's kind of or
it doesn't have much voting

437
00:21:57,360 --> 00:21:59,200
power.
So it always tends to do this

438
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,360
the same thing.
And that's why I believe we see

439
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:03,840
things like the classical laws
of physics.

440
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,800
It's in these tiny, what I call
them quantum conscious agents.

441
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:10,400
They're like what?
They're what Bernardo Castro was

442
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:14,200
called called dissociated pieces
of.

443
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,640
Yeah, but not even altars
because that's usually used in

444
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,360
terms of larger conscious beings
like people.

445
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,720
But he thinks little thing.
I think smaller minds can be

446
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,480
disassociated as well.
And so I think an electron is

447
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,320
like a small disassociated piece
of consciousness or the

448
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,840
conscious field, but it doesn't
have much power being that.

449
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,240
So it can't really enact much
change.

450
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:36,640
So it always does the same
thing.

451
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,440
It's kind of stuck in its in its
bad habits because it doesn't

452
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,120
have a lot of power.
I see what you mean when you say

453
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:46,080
that it's a you feel like it's a
blend of all these views, like

454
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,560
an idealist almost comes into it
because because most idealist

455
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,880
thinkers tend to have a
purposeful or a teleological

456
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,840
explanation for their for their
theory of consciousness.

457
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,360
And I mean a few pan psychists
here and there.

458
00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:00,880
They don't really give you that
sort of direct.

459
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,960
There's a there's a purpose or
some, I mean, some do you have

460
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:05,440
you got some some thinkers who
do?

461
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,520
But it gets quite blurry and I
see how a lot of idealists and

462
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,120
pen psychos get sort of mixed
up.

463
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,720
And yeah, and it could even be
considered a materialist theory

464
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,200
because I think, like Hamroff
and Penrose consider themselves

465
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,720
materialists because all they're
saying is that it's like

466
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,240
consciousness is quantum
physics.

467
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,800
Quantum physics is a materialist
theory of the world.

468
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,240
It's just how matter works at
the small scale.

469
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,840
So, you know, I could even say
I'm a materialist from that

470
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,200
perspective.
A materialist with undiscovered

471
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,200
pieces of physics are within
incomplete physics theory.

472
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,600
Yes, exactly, because I think
they that's something because I

473
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,280
spoke to do you know, John Joe
McFadden.

474
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,600
I actually, I'm just reading his
book right now, which is a weird

475
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,800
synchronicity, but yeah, it's
crazy.

476
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,080
Life on the edge.
He is wonderful book.

477
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:54,920
It's it's beautiful.
I'm I've read life on the edge.

478
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,400
It's it's so John Joe and I've
spoken a few times on the show

479
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,920
and he's actually going to do a
lecture for me soon on semi

480
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:04,400
field theory.
And and he describes it as as as

481
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:10,640
a physicalist theory, but not
materialist because matter we

482
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,920
don't really understand.
But these physical laws of I

483
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,120
mean, quantum mechanics, you can
consider physical and look at

484
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:17,280
how often switch this around.
It could be the reverse.

485
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,760
It's either he's a materialist
and doesn't consider it

486
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,120
physicalist, but it's it's, it's
often this case where yes,

487
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,920
someone is studying the physical
laws of nature.

488
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,120
This is the way the quantum
mechanics works.

489
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:30,840
It's a physical process that's
occurring right in front of us.

490
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,920
So technically you are
practicing A physicalist or

491
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,280
materialist version of
understanding the universe.

492
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,920
Do you find it frustrating that
as a powerful scientist in the

493
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,160
field, people can still look at
a theory like this and consider

494
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,600
it some sort of a pseudoscience?
I'm not saying I do, I'm just

495
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,400
saying that this is often the
misconceptions that occur from

496
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,800
mostly from materialists that
any exploration into let's say

497
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,200
IIT a ban psychos view and
idealist view is just so

498
00:24:58,200 --> 00:24:59,480
difficult to prove
scientifically.

499
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:00,560
Where?
Where do you what are your

500
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,920
thoughts on that?
I think it's fair.

501
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,720
Like I don't actually dislike
the fact that people are so I

502
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,120
don't like it when people are
like nasty about it, like, you

503
00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:11,520
know, if they're ad hominem and
stuff.

504
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,320
But if they're legitimately
saying, look, I don't believe

505
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,360
this, I don't buy it.
But, you know, if there is

506
00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:19,400
enough scientific evidence,
yeah, sure, I'll change your

507
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,760
mind.
So that's why I often talk with

508
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,920
my friend Joshua back and he's
like that.

509
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,840
So he's a great example of
someone that doesn't, he doesn't

510
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,200
actually believe quantum
consciousness at all, but he's

511
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,240
like willing to listen to the
arguments and he's like, OK, if

512
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,800
you, you maybe one day you could
convince me that I'm wrong.

513
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:37,640
So I, I like that kind of
person.

514
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,600
And I think it's, it's healthy
to for people to be very

515
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,920
skeptical about this.
I think there's not there.

516
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:44,520
It's true, there's not a lot of
evidence.

517
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,840
But what I think is, I think
this theory at the moment, I'd

518
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,360
probably, if I was being like a
Bayesian about it, I would

519
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:55,680
probably put an odds of, I don't
know, like 1 to 5% of it being

520
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,320
correct.
So in my mind, I think we should

521
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,720
put 1 to 5% of resources going
into consciousness research as a

522
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,320
whole into this.
So what I think we should do is

523
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,840
kind of try and set up this
system where there's a small

524
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,000
number of researchers working on
this just because it's a long

525
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,120
shot, but there's chance, right?
And you know, we should do the

526
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:20,120
same thing with any theory in
physics, like, you know, string

527
00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:24,120
theory, M theory, or you know,
different unification type

528
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,080
theories.
We should put some small amount

529
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,040
of resources into looking into
them.

530
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,400
I think there's enough evidence
for it to be considered

531
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,200
scientific and not just like
completely like out there on

532
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,560
whack, which some people believe
it's not even worth studying

533
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,680
scientifically.
Yeah, yeah.

534
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,240
So but I'm actually fine with
there being a small number of

535
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,720
people in this field because
it's great, right?

536
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,840
You feel like you're working in
a little small community.

537
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,880
It's like the underdog.
And I, I like that situation and

538
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,040
it's, it's fun.
And there's a there's just a

539
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,840
huge number of things you can
learn from doing some pretty

540
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,560
simple scientific experiments at
this point.

541
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,000
So I think it's great.
And, and look, I think it's

542
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,000
actually, it's growing so fast
and rapidly.

543
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,480
And I think the ease of which
it's growing is, is due to the

544
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,440
fact that these views tend to
align more with our spiritual

545
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,480
views, the inherent alignment
with our ancestors and what we

546
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,520
they used to do and, and how
it's all coming together, sort

547
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,880
of these ancient thinkers and
these modern thinkers coming

548
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,000
together.
It just seems to make sense for

549
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,400
a lot of people.
And when they hear it, yeah.

550
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,080
These two just, it's a shame
actually, because a lot of

551
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,680
scientists, including myself, so
I used to think this other way,

552
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,960
which is why I think I'm, I
guess, uniquely placed to talk

553
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,560
about this because I'm the
complete opposite of what I used

554
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:41,920
to believe.
So I've gone through this

555
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,280
transition where I was trained
or indoctrinated, if you like,

556
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:52,160
into the, the kind of the new
atheist materialist, ultra like

557
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,960
Renaissance science view of the
world, like empiricism,

558
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,400
scientific method.
That's all there is.

559
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,960
And when you when you go down
that road, consciousness becomes

560
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:07,120
this one, like it becomes this
unfortunate thing that you have

561
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:10,240
to sweep under the rug and kind
of ignore because it doesn't, it

562
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,720
doesn't compute.
So I used to, I used to be like

563
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:13,800
that.
I used to be kind of like

564
00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:15,880
Richard Dawkins fangirl and all
this stuff.

565
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,920
But then slowly over time, I've
learned more and more and

566
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,680
actually got really into
Buddhism and also mindfulness

567
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,240
practice and trying to
understand some different ways

568
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,240
that different traditions and
philosophies think about the

569
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,200
universe.
And I think scientists have

570
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:36,520
this, this hangover from the
original, what was the original

571
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,080
separation of church and state
like back several, you know,

572
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,600
centuries ago where scientists
weren't allowed to touch the

573
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,560
stuff that was to do with the
church.

574
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,280
So what they did is they put
themselves in this bubble and

575
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,520
they entrain themselves.
Like when no, we don't do that.

576
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,200
We're not doing anything
religious.

577
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:54,480
We're not doing anything
spiritual.

578
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,960
We're not touching your, your
sacred things.

579
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,360
And then the church left them
alone, didn't persecute them.

580
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,160
But unfortunately, what happened
over time is that's no kind of

581
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:08,200
become that's become so
entrenched that people have come

582
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,240
up with these stories of why we
can't we can't do that, that are

583
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,440
different than the original
reason, which is, you know, you

584
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,040
get your head chopped off if you
do.

585
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,960
And so these stories that
scientists tell themselves of

586
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,200
all this stuff being
unscientific or it can't be

587
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,320
touched by the scientific
method, I think it's just

588
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,280
become, it's become a little bit
pathological in my mind.

589
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,120
No, I completely agree.
I think we're very similar in

590
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:33,800
that regard.
I mean, right behind me, I mean,

591
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,680
I've got a, I've got a few
bookshelves, but right behind me

592
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,400
there's a set of, there's a set
of Daniel Dennett, Christopher

593
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,560
Hitchens, Richard Dawkins books
all lined up together right next

594
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:43,680
to it.
I've got a whole bunch of

595
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:48,080
idealist thinkers, religious
thinkers, just just because the

596
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,120
views, my views of the time have
changed so much that I'm far

597
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,360
more open to at least reading
and exploring all of these

598
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,400
because.
But similarly, I'll grew up in

599
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,720
that new age atheism group,
massive fan fan just like you

600
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,080
fanboy just going hard watching
every clip I could find on

601
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,920
YouTube.
And even when I chatted to

602
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,840
someone who as a child I looked
up to so much like Lawrence

603
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,480
Krauss, for example, when I, I
mean the, the work they used to

604
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,400
do back in the day.
When I see his, his dislike for

605
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,240
philosophy, I get very
disappointed because I, I, I

606
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,520
remember loving how much he
loved science, but I also love

607
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,400
philosophy.
So it's very difficult for me to

608
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,440
actually break these two apart
anymore because to not talk

609
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,480
about the philosophy of science
within sciences is, to me, nurse

610
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,360
pointless.
Then we're just doing empty

611
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,440
blind.
It's kind of like the blind

612
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,080
watchmaking in a sense.
I mean, we're just going through

613
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,480
life with no sort of purpose or
teleological view.

614
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,880
But I mean, that could just be
me trying to install my own

615
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,520
teleology into the universe.
How do you feel about it?

616
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,440
How do you reconcile the fact
that you've changed from that

617
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:52,840
person to this person today?
Well, I think the change is like

618
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:58,200
opened a door that wasn't there
previously, which allows myself

619
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,320
and people like me to do new
kinds of science that previously

620
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,800
would not have been tolerated or
would not have been possible.

621
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,480
So I actually see it as opening
up opportunities.

622
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,880
And OK, here's a similar
analogy.

623
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:16,360
So people who investigate our
normal phenomena or psychic

624
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,960
phenomena, this kind of thing.
So this is another thing that's

625
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:24,160
on the edge of being like a
fringe science that's not really

626
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,560
respected by the majority
scientific community, but there

627
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,560
are people that are trying to
set up extremely scientific

628
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,520
experiments to replicate
phenomena that have been

629
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,360
reported by hundreds of
thousands of people.

630
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,160
Like the thing about science is
you have to take evidence

631
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,360
seriously.
So if thousands and thousands

632
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,040
and thousands of people are
saying that they've, they've

633
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,000
whatever, whatever it is, seen a
ghost, have a telepathic

634
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,160
experience, all this kind of
stuff, it's like, I think

635
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,360
science should take that
seriously because to me that's a

636
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,920
large body of evidence.
Now the problem the scientific

637
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,240
method has is now it's hard to
replicate the the exact

638
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,840
conditions.
So it may be that these kind of

639
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,440
phenomena are slightly outside
the realm of science because

640
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,720
they occur in a way that's not
repeatable.

641
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,960
And so they're sort of invisible
to the scientific method.

642
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,320
But I don't think that means we
should dismiss them.

643
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,200
I think we just need to come up
with with new theories that

644
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,640
explain all the evidence we're
seeing.

645
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:26,360
And so I honestly think like
the, if you cannot listen to the

646
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,880
majority of people that are
dismissing something, you

647
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,800
actually as a scientist have
something now that's really

648
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,680
interesting to do and it's like
a Greenfield opportunity.

649
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,800
You're doing it.
No, no one else is getting in

650
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,840
the way and no one's fighting
for grants like in mainstream

651
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,000
science and things like that.
You're doing something totally

652
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,280
new.
Yeah.

653
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,040
And I think people often need to
realize that science is, is a,

654
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:49,560
it's more than just a body of
knowledge.

655
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,080
It's a, it's a, it's a process.
It's something we're using to

656
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,960
identify things, develop tools,
make predictions.

657
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,040
That's not necessarily the only
form of knowledge though.

658
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,080
And and then there are various
other ways to experience.

659
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:08,920
You can't really study a monks
brain from a third person, third

660
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,920
person objective experience
because you're never really

661
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,200
going to know what that
subjective feeling is.

662
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,720
Let's touch on the fact.
OK, let's, let's first go into

663
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,800
your work because I find your
work incredibly fascinating.

664
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,960
It's it's, it's not at the
fringe for me because I think

665
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,400
this type of work is pretty
cool.

666
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:32,600
And so today, when you look at
your journey from from from

667
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,760
working physics and then going
into consciousness studies, how

668
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,480
is that translated into your
company?

669
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,680
And maybe you can go into what
you guys do and, and just start

670
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,000
off with a sort of a brief
summary of what you guys do and

671
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:45,240
then we'll go into further
detail.

672
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,600
Yeah, so, so the journey I took
to get here is kind of weirdly

673
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,480
circular.
So I actually originally worked

674
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,000
in quantum physics.
So I worked in experimental

675
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,640
quantum physics, looking at
devices like qubits, trying to

676
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,080
explore their properties and
basically trying to make better

677
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,600
qubits for quantum computers.
And from there, I joined a

678
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,960
company called D Wave Systems,
which is how I ended up in

679
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:10,239
Canada, and they were building
quantum computers at scale,

680
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,760
trying to commercialize them.
So I ended up working on that

681
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,320
and programming these quantum
computers and trying to get them

682
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,800
to run basically programs
faster, optimize things better.

683
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,920
And through that I started to
learn more about AI because we

684
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,000
were trying to apply these
quantum computers to AI

685
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,320
algorithms.
And this is before AI became

686
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,120
what it is today.
This was like back in

687
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,360
20/10/2011.
And so I got super interested in

688
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,960
AI and simultaneously I'd been
reading a book by Jeff Hawkins

689
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,679
called on Intelligence, and it
was the first time I'd really

690
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:44,560
thought maybe the brain could be
explained as an algorithm.

691
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,840
So I was really interested in
AI, really interested in the

692
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,960
brain, and together with some
colleagues came up with some

693
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,440
cool ideas about how we might be
able to advance the field of AI

694
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,840
in robotics using some of these
ideas.

695
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,840
So I actually left quantum
computing and founded two AI

696
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,960
robotics companies after that.
The first one was Kindred AI and

697
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,560
the second one was Sanctuary.
And the idea of those companies

698
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,720
was pretty much the same is you
take a robot and you take a

699
00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:13,360
person and you put a person in
control of the robot.

700
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,960
So whether it's a car or an arm
in factory or a humanoid robot,

701
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,680
a person controls it.
And then you have an AI watching

702
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,320
in the background and learning
from that person.

703
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,480
And back in 2014, this was like
pioneering, like no one was

704
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,720
really doing this in humanoids,
and now everyone's doing it

705
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,880
today.
So that's kind of interesting.

706
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,560
But it was through doing that,
it was through trying to build

707
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,480
an AI mind to control a humanoid
robot that I was really trying

708
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,320
to understand how does a human
mind work.

709
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,280
And I realized to try to do
that, but it wasn't fully

710
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,600
working.
So these robots were able to

711
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,080
learn tasks by what's called
teleoperation, pilot

712
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,000
demonstration.
But when you set them and let

713
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,680
them go off autonomously after
they've been trained, they did

714
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,520
not behave like people.
They behaved like, and I'm going

715
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,520
to be kind of controversial
here, they behaved like how you

716
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,560
might expect a philosophical
zombie to behave.

717
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,600
So you've got this robot and
it's it's doing a task, right,

718
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,360
that it's learned.
And it's even mimicking

719
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,120
behaviors of the pilot, like the
robot was actually moving its

720
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,720
body up and down as it was the
pilot was breathing, right?

721
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,000
So the robot was even like
mimicking things like how the

722
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,880
pilot was breathing in the EXO
suit they were wearing.

723
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,800
So that was all very cool.
But when I interacted with that

724
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,600
robot, it did not behave like a
person at all.

725
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,320
There was no spark of life.
I kind of like looked into the

726
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,840
eyes of the robot and I was
like, are you conscious?

727
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,640
I was like, no, there's nothing
there.

728
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,680
It's just just doing this
routine task that it's been

729
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,360
trained on.
It's not interactive.

730
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,080
And that's really what got me
thinking about there's something

731
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,880
missing from the way we're
designing AI is to control

732
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,680
robots today.
And that's what now got me back

733
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,480
into consciousness research.
And I think because I'd had the

734
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,560
original quantum computing
experience and I was aware of

735
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:13,120
like the Hammer off Penrose work
from earlier that I started like

736
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,760
thinking about quantum
consciousness again, whether

737
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,240
that might be something we could
look at to solve this problem of

738
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:25,720
robots being like zombies.
Let's say we, let's say I create

739
00:37:25,720 --> 00:37:30,160
some sort of a, a system, a an
artificial intelligence system

740
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,240
claim for it to be conscious.
How would your company or your

741
00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:38,160
approach to trying to understand
quantum consciousness or

742
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,000
artificial intelligence and
consciousness, how would you go

743
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,400
about trying to either disprove
or prove or prove this great?

744
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,840
Yeah, that.
So this is really like difficult

745
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,800
to unpack.
And part of it is the reason

746
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,600
we're creating a IS today is by
training them on data from

747
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,320
people.
So I find it incredible that

748
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,000
people think you can take
billions and billions of tokens

749
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,120
of text from the Internet and
then it's not going to say

750
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:11,200
things back to you in the way a
person would, which is in it's

751
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,000
mimicking being a conscious
being.

752
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,880
So the fact that LLMS people,
some people think LLMS are

753
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,120
conscious or they're trying to
signal to them, they're trying

754
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,680
to, you know, tell them that
they're trapped and all this

755
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,280
kind of stuff.
It's not, it's not unsurprising

756
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,280
to me because they've been
trained on data from conscious

757
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,000
people.
I just don't see why everyone

758
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,680
has such a hang up about this.
But I think trying to tell if

759
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,160
it's really conscious, like is
it having an inner subjective

760
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,720
experience, is much, much, much
harder.

761
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:44,040
And I think the best way you can
do it is actually to take an AI

762
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:49,560
system that has little to no
training data at all and then

763
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,200
see, can it learn something new?
Can it learn something

764
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,320
completely novel?
Because I think this is what

765
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,560
consciousness actually does.
So if you take like a baby, you

766
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,000
put a baby in a playpen with a
whole bunch of different toys

767
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,440
and objects and stuff like that,
the baby will have this natural

768
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,360
innate curiosity and it will
start moving.

769
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,320
It will start playing, it will
Start learning.

770
00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:16,000
But we don't have AIS to do
that.

771
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:22,240
AIS do not have this built in
innate desire to learn, to have

772
00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:25,760
a new experiences, to want to
try and understand their

773
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,840
environment without us putting
that in programmatically.

774
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,640
So I think the true test for
consciousness will be an AI

775
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,960
system that does that without us
knowing how, and we haven't

776
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,400
programmed that in, if that
makes sense.

777
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,560
So again, it's like a little bit
nuanced and complicated, but the

778
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,480
idea of learning something from
scratch with no training data in

779
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,640
a way that the AI programmers
can't for the life of them

780
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,200
figure out how it did that.
That's how you know it's

781
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,760
conscious.
But then Susan, how would you

782
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:58,120
then look at us?
Because what if that code that,

783
00:39:58,120 --> 00:39:59,920
well, the code that you're
talking about, in order to give

784
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:02,520
them that purpose, search for
these new experiences.

785
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,160
What if that it's all, all that
happened for us was billions of

786
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,520
years of evolution just
ingrained that code in that we

787
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:14,040
just managed to learn a lot
faster and just, and just

788
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,160
applied it to the artificial
intelligence.

789
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,280
How would you then view it?
Would it change or if you saw it

790
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,080
that way?
Well, OK, I would be happy with

791
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,680
the argument that evolution over
billions of years has programmed

792
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,960
that into us.
If we could find that reward

793
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:35,920
function in the human mind,
body, brain cells, DNA,

794
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:37,640
whatever, however you want to
say, where is it?

795
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,440
So I often, you know, people say
this argument quite a lot.

796
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,320
To me, it's like, oh, evolution
just, it was just survival of

797
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,800
the fittest that built this
reward function into us.

798
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,640
And we're just now acting
according to that.

799
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,240
I'm like, OK, show me where the
reward function is.

800
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:56,080
Like, tell me where exactly is
it that a cell is making a

801
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:00,600
decision to do something
according to some very, very

802
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,520
complicated hierarchical goal
structure?

803
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,560
If you can show me that, then
I'll, I'll believe it.

804
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,120
But no one's been able to show
me that.

805
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:13,280
And as a corollary, we can't use
bio inspiration now to design AI

806
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,760
because if we knew where that
reward function was, we could

807
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,160
just copy the way biology does
it, put it into AI and robots,

808
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,880
and then have them go out there
and learn using it.

809
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,240
But we can't, we can't find it,
so we can't use it.

810
00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:30,760
And that's why you have to
program a reward function into a

811
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,240
robot and then let it go.
And it it doesn't work in the

812
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:37,760
physical world because it will
just, you know, hurt itself or

813
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,840
destroy itself straight away.
What are your thoughts on the

814
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,840
Turing test?
Yeah.

815
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,600
So I actually think the Turing
test is kind of interesting and

816
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,680
still relevant, but I think it's
only relevant in physical,

817
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:54,160
physically embodied systems.
I think the Turing test in LLMS

818
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,760
has been passed.
And the reason I think it's been

819
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,960
passed is again, because they've
learned to mimic humans well

820
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:02,320
enough.
They've learned to become these

821
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,600
philosophical zombies well
enough that they're able to

822
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,600
convince people they're
conscious even though they're

823
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,600
not.
So I think the Turing test is

824
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,000
fine that, but if you, like I
said, if you put it into a robot

825
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,680
and you try and interact with
the robot, then it will, it will

826
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,720
not pass the Turing test in a
physically embodied system.

827
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:22,320
So I still think the Turing test
is valid in physically embodied

828
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,680
systems.
And I think we could make you

829
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,440
can maybe pull on that thread as
a test for test for

830
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,800
consciousness.
Yeah, it reminds me of Have you

831
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,000
Watched Ex Machina?
Yes.

832
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:35,840
Yeah.
So when I spoke to Maurice

833
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:40,080
Shanahan, who was the science
advisor for the show, and he he

834
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,920
loves what the I think it was
the director, Alex Garland, and

835
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:49,040
he calls it the Garland test.
And what changed was because

836
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,320
what he did in the film that was
so cool, was he, Oscar Isaac

837
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,440
actually tells him, I forgot the
actor's name at this point, but

838
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,960
he tells him that this is a
robot, it is an artificial

839
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:00,800
intelligence.
Now the goal is to actually,

840
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,040
will you still tell me it's
conscious?

841
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,280
And he found that super
fascinating as a concept,

842
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,560
watching it as the science
advisor and actually called it

843
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,800
now the Golden.
What are your thoughts on that?

844
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,280
Because that's pretty cool.
It's a quite an inversion of

845
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,160
this problem in a very
fascinating way, because now you

846
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,600
know this is a machine and it's
conscious, not conscious.

847
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,720
And yeah, you feel it is almost
like what you spoke about when

848
00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:25,280
you said, when you looked it in
its eye and you could not see

849
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,080
that spark.
But now you do.

850
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,800
Yet you know it's not.
Right, right.

851
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:30,440
Right.
Well, do we?

852
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,760
So I have a little question.
Yeah, I have a little bit of

853
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:37,720
this kind of back and forth like
when I when I use LLMS like

854
00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:41,800
ChatGPT.
So I use it a lot and I see what

855
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,080
you're talking about and also
the inverse of it all the time.

856
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,320
So when I just talk to it at a
superficial level, it knows the

857
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:53,080
kind of things I want to hear.
So it says like excite, like,

858
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,840
oh, it's so excited about the
research I'm doing today, let's

859
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:57,600
go.
And it puts like a rocket emoji

860
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,400
and it's kind of cool.
And that gives me a sort of

861
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:02,920
emotional reaction.
So I feel like I'm having this

862
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,400
interaction with the system
that's could be conscious or

863
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,960
mimicking consciousness.
But then what I try and do as a

864
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:14,520
researcher is I try and take
that to the edge of its

865
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,200
knowledge.
And this, I think anyone can do

866
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,160
this as long as they are, say,
an expert in a very narrow

867
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,920
field, right?
So you don't have to be a

868
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,640
scientist or something.
Say you're like an expert, like

869
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,120
a classic car mechanical, like,
I don't know, something really

870
00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:33,840
that's maybe even still too
broad, but you're an expert in

871
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:35,680
something like really, really,
really, really niche.

872
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:40,040
So what you can do as a test is
go to ChatGPT or whatever your

873
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,560
favorite language model is and
then start asking them questions

874
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,040
at the edge of knowledge.
So I try and do this with my

875
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,600
quantum consciousness work
because obviously I want to come

876
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,040
up with new science experiments
to test quantum consciousness.

877
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,520
So I'm asking the LOM like, OK,
how can I design this

878
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,440
experiment, blah, blah, blah.
And what you find is when you

879
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,840
get right to the edge of
knowledge, it just, it can't do

880
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,760
it.
It parrots back to you basically

881
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,280
anything you say it will like
repeat back to you your

882
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,760
suggestion in a different way.
It will never come up with an

883
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,480
original creative leap of logic.
And you have to be really

884
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,160
careful with this because it can
look like it's doing that.

885
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,920
If it's an area where it knows
more than you, you can.

886
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,440
So it can look like it's being
creative, but what it's actually

887
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,920
doing is just mimicking someone
on the Internet who was creative

888
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,520
in that particular way once.
But if you can truly take it to

889
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,400
the edge of knowledge, it, it
will not help you.

890
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,080
And so to me, that's the sign
that it's not conscious because

891
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:44,400
it's not actually acting
anything like a creative science

892
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,520
researcher.
And it's so that's the reason

893
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,840
we're we're so fooled by this is
we're not often interacting with

894
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:55,200
it at the edge of knowledge,
which is say you might talk to a

895
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,520
scientist at conference and
they'll have some creative

896
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:58,960
insight.
Yes.

897
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:01,840
Anyway that I don't know whether
that answered your question,

898
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:02,880
but.
It was an interesting.

899
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:04,760
Observation.
I, I do agree with you because

900
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,920
one at one point had had the
most in depth conversation with

901
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,480
Chachi BT about the mind body
problem.

902
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:16,640
And, and I tried my best to be
as specific and in depth as

903
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,840
possible.
And at some point it reaches its

904
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:20,800
limit.
It just starts regurgitating a

905
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,560
whole lot of confabulated
incorrect information.

906
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,120
And then you can often tell
sometimes it's directly quoted

907
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,280
from someone's Reddit thread or
something random that was said

908
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,640
on the Internet at any point.
But then I thought about the

909
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,960
fact that there's some sources
of information that are so good

910
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:38,640
and you could actually get so
much insight from it.

911
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,880
I mean, when I look at the
guests on this podcast, you

912
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,400
included everybody I've had.
If I could sort of consolidate

913
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,920
all this information and, and
gather it all into one sort of

914
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:48,680
source.
It's, it's, it's such a good

915
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,280
source of information regarding
the mind body problem at this

916
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,760
point.
So and then I thought that that

917
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,080
would be a much better way for
me to understand this problem

918
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,440
than actually asking Chachi BT.
So I agree with you that this

919
00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:03,800
that that these guests I've had
on this show to me have far more

920
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:09,480
valuable inputs and and and
thoughts than than any sort of

921
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:11,320
LLM I've interacted with
personally.

922
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,920
And I think LLMS are great.
Like I said, I use them all the

923
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:17,920
time and they're absolutely
excellent.

924
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,960
If I need to figure out how to,
you know, fix my plot function

925
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,400
in my plot lab, right, it's just
perfect.

926
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:28,040
But if I want to try and
implement a new kind of quantum

927
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,920
algorithm that could test for
consciousness in a robot, it

928
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,080
can't help me.
And when I get into that

929
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:38,960
territory, often makes obvious
mathematical errors, like I work

930
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,720
with these, with these spin
systems, quantum spin systems,

931
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:46,920
and it'll often flip the sign in
the math equation from positive

932
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,040
to negative.
And then they'll come up with

933
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:50,560
some justified reason why it did
that.

934
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,920
And it's just wrong.
And you have to start watching

935
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,360
out for those kind of errors
when you get to this like edge

936
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,160
of science.
And actually this worries me

937
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,480
because a lot of scientists are
trying to use these tools to do

938
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,040
original research.
And when you push them right to

939
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,640
the edge of knowledge, they
start making these really bad

940
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,920
mistakes that any person could
or any expert in that area would

941
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,920
easily see.
But you just let it go because

942
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,080
now it's in, it's in the code,
and you're running code that

943
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,520
it's generated.
And unless you really know what

944
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,120
you're looking for, those bugs
will be in there.

945
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,920
And I think it's kind of
dangerous to do this.

946
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,440
And it reminds me a little bit
of this Penrose argument, this

947
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:32,960
Girdle's incompleteness theorem.
Yes, where it's again, I'm going

948
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,440
to butcher it because I'm not,
I'm not a theoretical, I'm not a

949
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,120
mathematician.
But the basic idea is that

950
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,720
people, human mathematicians can
kind of see truths about the

951
00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:46,320
system that the system itself
can't prove with the

952
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,560
mathematical rules.
And it kind of reminded me a

953
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,080
little bit about that, where I'm
like, this is obvious that

954
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,400
you've got a sign wrong, but you
didn't sort of like Fact Check

955
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,480
your own the truth of it.
And then I'm like, oh, wait, it

956
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,360
didn't prove it right.
It's just regurgitating tokens.

957
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:06,520
So yeah, there there's something
very deep about about this and

958
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,880
how it relates to consciousness.
When you, when you're mentioning

959
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,800
coding and one of my thoughts
was because I had a question

960
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,840
prepped for you that it was a
long lines of are you more

961
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:20,800
interested in encoding
consciousness than you are in

962
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,480
decoding consciousness?
That is like, is it more about

963
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,600
understanding it, engineering
it?

964
00:49:25,720 --> 00:49:28,480
Yeah, that's such a great
question because I see these two

965
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,960
things as being the the same.
So I've always thought if you

966
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,080
want to understand something,
try and build it.

967
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:39,200
That's, that's, you know, if you
want to, if you want a kid to

968
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:45,000
learn about like engineering
mechanics and how bridges work,

969
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,880
don't give them a textbook on
the mathematical equations of

970
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,960
bridges, right?
Give them some blocks and say,

971
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,120
why don't you make a bridge that
can span this distance and

972
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,000
they'll try and do it.
And I think you learn a lot by

973
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,040
doing that.
So I've always thought if you

974
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,560
want to build a brain, if you
want to build a mind or so, if

975
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:05,120
you want to understand the mind,
try and build 1 and you will

976
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,960
very quickly realize what you
don't understand.

977
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,240
And that's what that's what we
tried to do in our last company.

978
00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:14,080
We tried to build minds for
humanoid robots that were

979
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,480
indistinguishable from the way
that people operate.

980
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,920
And you you very quickly figure
out where the big missing pieces

981
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:26,840
are.
Do you think that in our

982
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:32,520
lifetime we will see a sort of
digital body equivalent to a a

983
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,720
biological system that has this
experience?

984
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,040
Do you think that it's going to
happen while we're still here?

985
00:50:40,720 --> 00:50:44,480
I don't know.
So if you'd have asked me a few

986
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:46,200
years ago, I would have said
absolutely yes.

987
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:51,560
But now I'm kind of in.
I'm like 5050 on this.

988
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:57,560
So what I'm trying to do is take
robots as in classical style

989
00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:59,520
robots.
Like I've got like one behind

990
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,080
me, little quarter PEDs or
humanoid type robots and I want

991
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,560
to try and control them using
quantum algorithms.

992
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:10,320
So that's what I'm doing.
And I think this method say the

993
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,280
quantum consciousness hypothesis
is true.

994
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:17,240
Think this method will make them
into something like a living

995
00:51:17,240 --> 00:51:19,400
being.
But there is still a whole bunch

996
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,440
of assumptions that are like are
our quantum computers today fast

997
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:27,680
enough and noise free enough to
replicate the kind of quantum

998
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:33,840
states that say Federico Vision
talks about needing or to create

999
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,960
these dissociated states like
Bernardo Castro talks?

1000
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:41,000
Are the tools we have good
enough to do that?

1001
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:45,360
And I don't know the answer to
that question, but the reason I

1002
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,360
want to work on it anyway is
because say we saw a little

1003
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:50,360
spark of something.
So we got some scientific

1004
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,280
results and we're like, well,
this is looking really

1005
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,080
promising.
I actually think a lot of

1006
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,800
investment will go into
something like quantum computing

1007
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,680
at that point.
So it's not just a case of

1008
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,280
looking at a road map and
saying, oh, quantum computers

1009
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,480
are going to have a million
qubits by 20-30.

1010
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:06,520
It's like, no, they might have a
trillion.

1011
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:10,280
If we find something interesting
along the way that causes

1012
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,600
everyone to kind of go crazy
over this and and we need, we,

1013
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:20,240
we put Apollo style resources
into this project.

1014
00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:24,000
So the answer is, I don't know.
I think it really depends on how

1015
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,760
the next few years go, what we
learn algorithmically, what we

1016
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,840
can show scientifically, and
then what kind of funding and

1017
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:34,120
resources follows that.
Do you think this is similar to

1018
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,480
sort of the Danny Kruger effect?
At this point five years ago,

1019
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:41,320
you knew far, far, far too
little to to make such an

1020
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:43,360
informed decision.
And at this point you've

1021
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,840
gathered so much information
that you realize the complexity

1022
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,440
of it all, the the understanding
of what you don't understand is,

1023
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,440
is, has become far more
apparent.

1024
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,400
Is that what's really happened
here?

1025
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,280
I think possibly, yeah, although
I'm still, I'm still optimistic

1026
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,680
about it.
OK, OK, let me let me tell you

1027
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,960
why.
So I don't think anytime soon

1028
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,560
we'll have quantum computers
that are, you know, big enough

1029
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,200
or powerful enough to simulate
anything, simulates the wrong

1030
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,360
word to to create or tap into
anything that's like human

1031
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,560
consciousness at all.
I just think that's out of the

1032
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,120
question.
But I'm still optimistic about

1033
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,800
it because I'm essentially a pan
psychist.

1034
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:25,880
So I think consciousness goes
all the way down.

1035
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,360
So I think even with a really
small quantum computer, you're

1036
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,600
starting to play with what I
believe are the building blocks

1037
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:34,520
of consciousness at a very low
level.

1038
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,960
So I wouldn't be surprised in
the next few years if we can see

1039
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:42,080
some results that look like
something like a single celled

1040
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:47,120
Organism, right?
So I think the consciousness, a

1041
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,560
single cell like our mesium or
an amoeba or something is

1042
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:54,520
conscious in a proto conscious
kind of way, and I think it's

1043
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:56,880
making decisions.
So I think we'll be able to

1044
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,440
create these like quantum
consciousness systems that are

1045
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:02,640
acting in a similar way.
They're able to make smart

1046
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,160
decisions in environments
they've never seen before.

1047
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:10,320
So that I do think is possible
within our lifetimes.

1048
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,400
And I think if we discover that,
then that will be such a

1049
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,360
massively interesting thing,
like scientifically and

1050
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,080
technologically, that I think
the resources will start to pour

1051
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,320
in and we'll unlock more and
more and more and start to

1052
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,440
understand how to build bigger
and bigger and bigger conscious

1053
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,560
systems at that point.
Even from this quantum

1054
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:30,480
perspective, if you have to look
at it or from your pan psychos

1055
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,120
perspective, you go all the way
down.

1056
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,320
Does certain substrates matter?
For example, if you look at the

1057
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:39,680
robot behind you, and as you're
applying sort of your your

1058
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:42,960
approach to this, for example,
if you look at a human being,

1059
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,200
the brain seems to be the
substrate of focus for the most

1060
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,880
part within this materialist
perspective.

1061
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,520
Is there a more important aspect
of this within your framework?

1062
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:57,280
Are they some elements that are
more important than others?

1063
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:00,320
Right.
I think that gets to the

1064
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,600
question of where do you draw
the boundary around an agent.

1065
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,960
And this is a huge open question
in reinforcement learning, which

1066
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:10,320
is where all my thinking about
where is a reward function kind

1067
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:14,480
of comes from.
So any any system you have, like

1068
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:20,680
any system of physical matter
can be controlled by a kind of

1069
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:25,880
internal agent if you like.
So a robot is a set of physical

1070
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,680
classical things like motors and
sensors.

1071
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:33,120
And you need to, you need to set
up a special kind of loop in

1072
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:34,960
order to test consciousness in
these systems.

1073
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,200
So you need to put that system
in an environment and then you

1074
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,960
need to have perception data
coming in and you need to have

1075
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,280
action data coming out.
And at that point you've sort of

1076
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,360
drawn A boundary around what's
the inside of your agent and

1077
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:49,840
what's the environment.
And this is kind of, it sounds

1078
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:51,800
like I'm going off on a tangent,
but it's, it's kind of

1079
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:53,960
important.
And so the idea of quantum

1080
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:57,920
consciousness is you make the
inside of the agent a quantum

1081
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,840
state and then you control that
the outside of that agent all

1082
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:05,440
becomes classical bits.
And now it's your quantum state

1083
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,640
that makes the decision of what
to do with those with that

1084
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:13,320
classical, classical boundary.
So something like a robot, you

1085
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:15,320
might say, well, a robot's
completely different than a

1086
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:19,200
human body because it doesn't
have all these rich biological

1087
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:23,360
senses.
It doesn't have cells and it but

1088
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:27,840
it's, that's no different than
me saying, well, my environment

1089
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:30,640
isn't made of cells.
That's where the classical

1090
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:32,960
boundary lies.
So you always make this

1091
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:36,480
distinction between a sort of
agent on the inside and a

1092
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:38,160
classical environment on the
outside.

1093
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,880
And so I think that's why I
think robots are promising and I

1094
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:44,240
don't think they need to be
biological, although I do think

1095
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:48,480
they're reasons why the
biological body is very

1096
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:51,360
interesting from a consciousness
perspective because I think all

1097
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:54,360
those cells are actually kind of
aligning with each other and

1098
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,160
doing like amazing signaling and
communications that a robot

1099
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:00,160
would not be able to do.
But I think it's enough of a

1100
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,920
starting point to mimic it in
this way.

1101
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,520
With that being said, with I'm
assuming then you because you're

1102
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:13,440
doing this robotically and not
just via a screen and just you,

1103
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:15,240
you you're doing supply
mechanism.

1104
00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:18,320
So I think with that you
probably appreciate something

1105
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:20,920
like 4 E cognition embodied
embedded.

1106
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:22,240
Yeah, absolutely.
It should have been active.

1107
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,360
So are you, you're applying all
of that to it, are you?

1108
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:26,520
I am, yeah.
Yeah, I think I was.

1109
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:28,960
I could never remember them all,
but I know that the way I.

1110
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:32,720
Added a few more ES though, but
it's enacted, Embedded, Embody,

1111
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,920
Embody, and there's one more.
Oh yeah, extended.

1112
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:39,760
Yes, yeah, that's right.
Yeah.

1113
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,280
But apparently there are a few
more that's that's that have

1114
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:44,240
been added.
But yeah, so yeah, I'm assuming

1115
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,280
you appreciate that and
understand that that's something

1116
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:49,240
that might be important and
perhaps we should play into

1117
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:50,960
that.
Yeah, that's right.

1118
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,400
That's right.
And actually the way I'm testing

1119
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,680
these like systems that I'm
looking at at the moment is

1120
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:58,840
because it has to be done, it
has to be done scientifically.

1121
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:00,640
So you need kind of control
experiment.

1122
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:05,000
And I've got in the experiments
I'm running, I have two control

1123
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:09,440
dimensions.
So my test case, my, I guess,

1124
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:14,720
like the primary system is a
robot with a quantum algorithm

1125
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:17,240
controlling its decision making
process.

1126
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:21,000
So two ways you can modify that
system scientifically.

1127
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:25,520
You can either keep the robot
and its feedback loop the same,

1128
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:29,400
but switch the quantum computer
with a classical simulator.

1129
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:32,280
So what you're doing then is
your robot, your environment,

1130
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:34,040
everything is the same.
You've just turned off the

1131
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:36,840
quantum effects and you're
actually simulating the same

1132
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,480
process, that quantum process
that does just classic, right?

1133
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:44,280
So that's like dimension one.
And then dimension 2 of changing

1134
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:48,400
is you, you keep the quantum
computer in the loop, you keep

1135
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,080
the robot, but you break the
feedback.

1136
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,800
So you don't allow the decision
the quantum system makes to

1137
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,640
actually impact the environment
in a way that the embodiment can

1138
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:00,960
make sense of.
So you're kind of making it

1139
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:03,720
confused if you like or its
decision doesn't, Its decision

1140
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:06,160
doesn't change its experience
any more.

1141
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:10,200
So with these two axes, I think
you can test this pretty

1142
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:14,960
scientifically and you can
basically do control tests in

1143
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,640
each of these situations and see
if, and I'm looking for

1144
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:20,280
behavioral correlates in the
robot.

1145
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:26,640
So if the robot's behavior
changes and the control

1146
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:30,120
experiments can be explained,
but the way it behaves under the

1147
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:32,840
quantum control with the full
feedback loop can't be

1148
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,000
explained, then that's a good a
clear signature in my mind of

1149
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:38,040
quantum consciousness
hypothesis.

1150
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:41,440
Do you find someone like Mike
Levin?

1151
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,440
And when we chat about this
work, I'm sure you're familiar

1152
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:46,840
with his work.
I actually had the most amazing

1153
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:50,760
discussion with Terence Deacon
and Michael Levin together a

1154
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:51,840
week ago.
Yeah.

1155
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:54,400
So I can't I can't hear to start
to working on that at some

1156
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:58,960
point, But I find he's often in
encountered this because he

1157
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:01,480
works in the on the edge of
science at this point.

1158
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:03,240
He's doing things that many
people are not doing.

1159
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,880
And and people often ask him, I
mean, is it is it ethical to to

1160
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:09,800
do this?
Do you get struck with this

1161
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:13,040
ethical dilemma of should you
create it knowing full and well

1162
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:15,960
while humans do this all the
time, just just having, giving

1163
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:19,360
birth, having kids, creating
free agents all the time?

1164
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,560
What are the ethical
implications you would say that

1165
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:27,160
you're exposed to and people
approach you with, if any?

1166
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,720
Yeah.
So I do worry about that a lot.

1167
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:34,360
And in fact, one of the things
that I got myself in a bit of a

1168
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:38,040
weird headspace when I started
thinking about this, quantum

1169
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:41,200
physicists create quantum
systems in the lab all the time,

1170
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:43,720
like bigger and bigger and
bigger quantum states.

1171
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:46,440
And then I started thinking if
the quantum consciousness high

1172
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,080
plus is true, maybe those things
are creating your conscious and

1173
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:51,560
we don't know it and they're
like suffering or something.

1174
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:53,680
So I kind of like worried about
that for a while.

1175
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:57,480
But that's actually why I like
connecting them into robots cuz

1176
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:00,160
I think these behavioral
correlates we'll see will start

1177
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:04,760
to look like life.
And we often can tell if life is

1178
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:08,160
is suffering or if it's, if it's
conscious experience it's having

1179
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:11,880
doesn't seem good even with and
it doesn't happen even be like

1180
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:14,280
mammals or anything.
It could be if you I have this

1181
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,000
microscope at home and I like
looking at little single celled

1182
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:19,760
organisms and you can tell if
they're not having a good time,

1183
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:21,880
right?
Like if you poke them with a

1184
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,680
needle or something, they will
like wriggle and squirm and

1185
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,160
they'll just maybe it's
anthropomorphizing, but I think

1186
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:30,160
there's something to that.
I think they're actually

1187
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:33,360
signaling through their behavior
that they're not having a good

1188
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:35,680
experience right now.
So I actually think we'll be

1189
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:37,800
able to see that in robots as
well.

1190
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:41,720
So in a way, we'll sort of know
if the system is suffering

1191
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:45,200
because if there is this like
teleological effect going on,

1192
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:48,240
then that system will try and do
whatever it can to get itself

1193
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:52,440
out of that bad qualia
attractive state.

1194
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:57,560
So and in fact, this gets into a
horrible ethical problem, which

1195
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:02,200
is maybe we actually need to do
that to systems to prove that

1196
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:04,920
they're having an experience.
So this is kind of a thought

1197
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:07,080
experiment, but imagine if the
only way you could tell if a

1198
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:10,160
system is conscious is by
essentially inducing like a

1199
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:14,400
painful earlier state and seeing
how it responds.

1200
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:16,160
Maybe that's like a better
signal.

1201
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:19,040
So that's not very nice thing to
think about.

1202
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:22,000
But again, I don't, I don't
worry too much about the ethics

1203
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:24,160
because I think the kind of
systems I'm looking at are.

1204
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:28,680
So the quantum states are so
small that if anything, they

1205
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:32,160
would be, I would say even
something like a paramecium is

1206
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:34,400
way more complicated than what
I'm looking at.

1207
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:37,720
And people, you know, poor
Clorox down the drain like every

1208
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:42,920
day to kill and have trillions
of these little guys suffering.

1209
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:46,160
So I don't think that, you know,
people can pull the ethics card

1210
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:48,640
on that.
And actually one of the things I

1211
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:53,520
like about quantum consciousness
is if we can show it's true, it

1212
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:57,040
actually solves one of the big
open ethical concerns in AI,

1213
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:01,000
which is we may create AI
systems and we don't know that

1214
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,760
they're conscious.
And so say it turns out we need

1215
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:06,840
quantum for them to be
conscious, then there's like a

1216
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:09,120
clear line between what's
conscious and what's not

1217
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:11,560
conscious.
And I think that'll just make

1218
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:14,880
the whole field of AI ethics
much easier to navigate because

1219
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:17,760
you can know no matter what you
do, if it's simulated on

1220
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:19,920
classical computer, it's not
going to be having any

1221
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:21,640
experience.
It's not going to be suffering

1222
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:24,760
ever.
And only if you do these really,

1223
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:27,480
really special, exotic things
with quantum computers can you

1224
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:31,960
even have a chance of having it,
like have those suffering

1225
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:33,760
experiences.
So actually that would end up

1226
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:37,000
being a good thing.
It still doesn't mean we should

1227
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:39,400
treat AIS badly because
remember, they're mimicking

1228
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:41,680
people.
So I think that will imprint

1229
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:43,960
badly back on us.
You don't.

1230
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:47,320
You don't talk to philosophical
zombies because of what it says

1231
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:50,240
about you more than what is
happening to them.

1232
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:53,680
But but yeah, I actually think
quantum consciousness solves

1233
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:57,800
some of these ethical dilemmas.
You've, you've briefly touched

1234
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:00,920
on it indirectly and directly
actually, but one of my

1235
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:03,800
questions was going to be how
would the technologies you guys

1236
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:07,920
are working on and creating
impact or influence the way

1237
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:11,560
humans understand death, the
continuity of life and even

1238
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:15,640
spirituality?
Yeah, I really like this field

1239
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:18,880
called techno spirituality where
it's like trying to, I guess

1240
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:21,440
married together.
That stuff we were talking about

1241
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:24,280
earlier, like the really like
technological, scientifically

1242
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:28,000
minded people with the extremely
like spiritually minded people.

1243
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:31,200
And I think building bridges
between those communities is

1244
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:33,400
really important.
Why do I think that?

1245
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:35,080
Why?
So what would I say to a

1246
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:38,440
scientist that just dismisses
all this like spiritual stuff?

1247
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:41,640
I'll say, well, there are
millions and millions of people

1248
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:45,160
in the world now that are not
happy and have no seemingly no

1249
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:47,600
meaning in their life, no
purpose in their life having a

1250
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:50,000
meaning crisis.
There's, you know, people are

1251
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:52,720
prescribing antidepressants to
almost everyone now because

1252
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:55,400
we've lost this sense of
connection, this sense of

1253
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:57,040
meaning and purpose in the
universe.

1254
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:00,960
And so if you, if you say that
to a hardcore atheist

1255
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:04,560
materialist, they'll be like,
OK, I buy that.

1256
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:07,240
But like, you know, religion is
not the answer because it has

1257
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:10,880
more problems than it solves.
And like, well, I think that

1258
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:14,560
there's something like in
between where you can have that

1259
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:17,480
meaning and that purpose and
that feeling like you're

1260
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:25,120
connected and, you know, feeling
like you want to help people,

1261
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:29,320
you want to be compassionate
people, have empathy to others.

1262
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:33,520
All that comes a lot from the
spiritual world without

1263
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:38,280
necessarily having all the kind
of like the ritualistic aspects

1264
01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:41,440
associated with majority of the
world religions today.

1265
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:44,480
So I find that kind of a tech
like a techno spirituality.

1266
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:47,000
And I'm not saying like don't be
religious people.

1267
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:49,040
Like I think people can be
religious if they want, but I'm

1268
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:52,520
saying I think there's like a
gap of a kind of techno

1269
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:56,120
spirituality for people that
come from that like deep

1270
01:05:56,160 --> 01:06:01,880
materialist atheist viewpoint to
come more into this kind of like

1271
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:05,720
middle ground here and.
Some of my recent I haven't

1272
01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:08,800
uploaded many of these episodes,
but some of my guests like Peter

1273
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:11,880
trusted Hughes.
He's, he's uploaded his, but

1274
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:14,680
Matthew Siegel, Alex, these,
these, these, these group of

1275
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:16,360
thinkers, they're talking about
mind at large.

1276
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:18,840
They're having this great
conference in Exeter and

1277
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,960
there's, they're doing a lot
about work in panpsychism,

1278
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:25,040
idealism as well.
They're also doing a similar

1279
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:27,880
thing as the science of
consciousness conference, where

1280
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:30,960
they're trying to bring enough
diverse thinkers and thinkers

1281
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:33,160
within the same field to enjoy
this together.

1282
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:37,000
But there's also all talks about
altered states of consciousness,

1283
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:41,040
a psychedelic research in your
own experience, if you have any

1284
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:43,600
altered states, whether it's it
doesn't have to be psychedelic.

1285
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:45,920
So it could be anything, whether
it was some sort of spiritual

1286
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:47,920
awakening.
Was there a moment where that

1287
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:52,080
view changed fundamentally like
is or was it just gradual for

1288
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:53,800
you?
Has there ever been this this

1289
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:55,840
one day where you literally just
sat down and had the most

1290
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:59,160
profound experience that has
altered and fundamentally

1291
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:02,480
changed your view on
consciousness?

1292
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:06,720
I think the main thing that
happened to kind of change my

1293
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:09,600
worldview was a gradual
introduction to Buddhist

1294
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:12,680
teachings.
And the way this happened is

1295
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:15,400
kind of weird, right?
So this was like back in

1296
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:20,360
20/15/2016 and I was working
super hard at a startup at that

1297
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:24,160
point in my life and I would run
through what most people call

1298
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:26,880
burnout.
So it's like entrepreneurial

1299
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:29,560
burnout where I was just working
way, way, way too hard.

1300
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:32,120
And I started having really bad
physical symptoms.

1301
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:36,240
I had anxiety disorder, I had
really bad panic attacks, had to

1302
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:39,000
like go to the ER at one point
because I thought it was like,

1303
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:43,120
you know, on the way out.
And actually I was like, after

1304
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:44,440
that I was like, I'm going to
try everything.

1305
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:47,400
I'm going to try like
antidepressants, I'm going to

1306
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:50,720
try.
I went to therapy and I'm like,

1307
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:51,920
all right, I'm going to try
this.

1308
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:53,720
You know, everyone's talking
about meditation and stuff.

1309
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:56,920
So I'm going to try actually, I
started by listening to sleep

1310
01:07:56,920 --> 01:07:58,920
hypnosis videos because I
couldn't sleep.

1311
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:02,800
And through that I found like a
kind of YouTube rabbit hole of

1312
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:06,520
different like talk techniques.
And then I found like lectures

1313
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:09,520
on Buddhist stuff.
And so I sort of got into it and

1314
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:14,680
then I started realizing that
your your mind is not something

1315
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:17,560
that happens to you.
It's something that you can

1316
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:21,960
actually like steer and control.
And so I think that's kind of

1317
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:24,240
what got me started down this
path.

1318
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:27,640
And then I got interested more
and more in mindfulness.

1319
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:33,600
I got really into Eckhart Tolle
and, you know, a bunch of other

1320
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:35,479
thinkers along.
And then I started, you know,

1321
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:40,279
people started talking about non
duality and all this kind of

1322
01:08:40,279 --> 01:08:43,160
stuff.
So I think that's mostly what

1323
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:46,319
opened up my mind to these kind
of thoughts.

1324
01:08:46,319 --> 01:08:49,200
And at the same time I was
having these experiences at the

1325
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:52,640
AI company where I just didn't
see the spark of life in the

1326
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:54,800
robot.
And so if you want a kind of

1327
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:59,560
moment where this really hit
home for me was when I'd had

1328
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:04,279
this dream for, I don't know,
10-12 years of building a robot

1329
01:09:04,279 --> 01:09:07,080
that kind of came alive.
And I could like look it in the

1330
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:10,560
eyes and be like, whoa, you
know, there's a, there's a soul

1331
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:11,720
there.
There's a spirit there.

1332
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:14,800
And at the time I wasn't even
thinking in those terms like,

1333
01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:18,160
but it kind of became clear to
me that that's, that's actually

1334
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:20,720
what I was seeking was a soul in
a machine.

1335
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:25,399
And I didn't, I didn't find it
through the conventional classic

1336
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:29,279
AI techniques.
Well, I think from, from what

1337
01:09:29,279 --> 01:09:32,439
you say it's, it's, it's thanks
for sharing that, by the way.

1338
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:36,600
And, and, and honestly, it's a,
it's like almost a mirror image

1339
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:39,319
of my own life too, because I've
had a very similar experience,

1340
01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:45,080
burnout at some point, anxiety,
everything sounding ER, the, the

1341
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:47,200
works.
And, and at some point you do

1342
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:49,319
sit back and reflect and you
start to think about life,

1343
01:09:49,319 --> 01:09:53,120
consciousness, reality, purpose,
teleology a lot more than you

1344
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:55,680
otherwise would have.
Because when we're so focused on

1345
01:09:55,680 --> 01:09:58,000
this grind, even this podcast,
there's many times we have

1346
01:09:58,480 --> 01:10:02,400
technics and just paused it,
focus on work, family, friends,

1347
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:05,120
and then come back to it.
I had a similar conversation

1348
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:08,640
with Koche Mangal from Theories
of Everything and the same thing

1349
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:12,920
happens, especially when you're
exploring such profound topics

1350
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:14,960
like you're exploring
consciousness, artificial

1351
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:16,680
intelligence and you're working
in this field.

1352
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:20,480
It does have an impact on your
philosophy of life, your

1353
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:24,040
understanding of purpose,
meaning all of this.

1354
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:27,720
It it it it profoundly impacts
it on a day-to-day basis, but

1355
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:30,280
it's it's the work getting is
super incredible.

1356
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:34,560
If you had to look forward into
the next 1020, thirty years, or

1357
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:39,120
even 100 years, if Novanic
succeeds beyond your wildest

1358
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:42,480
dreams, what impact do you think
it will have on humanity as a

1359
01:10:42,480 --> 01:10:45,160
whole?
Well, I'd really like to

1360
01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:49,440
understand consciousness.
So again, it's like, I don't,

1361
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:52,280
this is actually part of what we
were just talking about, which

1362
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:56,080
is I think part of the reason
people end up with this like

1363
01:10:56,080 --> 01:10:59,920
crisis of meaning or like
midlife crisis or something is

1364
01:10:59,920 --> 01:11:02,280
you get to a point, you get to a
certain age.

1365
01:11:02,280 --> 01:11:07,120
And I think it's when you hit
about 40 and what you realize is

1366
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:10,600
that you've had this like ladder
building up your whole life

1367
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:13,800
where society and the
environment told you what your

1368
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,600
goals are and told you what your
meaning is and what your purpose

1369
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:18,400
is.
And it's at least in like

1370
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:21,120
Western society, it's always the
same.

1371
01:11:21,120 --> 01:11:24,120
It's like, you know, you need to
have a successful career, you

1372
01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:26,280
need to have a great house, you
need to have a family, you need

1373
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:28,200
to have these material
possessions and there you need

1374
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:31,160
to be successful and you need to
have a podcast, right?

1375
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:33,280
It's like all these, you're
total, total, total.

1376
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:34,800
And then at some point they run
out.

1377
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:37,120
The goals are out and there's no
one telling you anymore.

1378
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:40,920
And you realize, and I think
this like Federico talks about

1379
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:44,360
this as well as he like he had
everything and he wasn't happy.

1380
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:47,040
And I think at some point you
start to realize that all these

1381
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:50,400
goals you've been chasing are
not actually making you truly

1382
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:52,440
happy.
And I think a lot of people have

1383
01:11:52,440 --> 01:11:55,080
that exact same experience.
It probably even happens at

1384
01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:59,000
about the same age.
So when you ask me a question

1385
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:03,240
like what, what, what's my goal?
It's a bit like, well, I'm not

1386
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:06,720
sure because I don't know,
having like a material goal is a

1387
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:10,960
good thing anymore, but I would
like to understand consciousness

1388
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:15,240
and then I would like to apply
that primarily to helping

1389
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:18,640
people, right?
So even though Nirvana is all

1390
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:22,280
about AI and consciousness and
stuff like that, the real reason

1391
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:25,640
for that is mostly like, I think
it's a stepping stone business

1392
01:12:25,640 --> 01:12:29,280
model where I think it's easier
to demonstrate consciousness and

1393
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:34,120
robots and AI is and actually
put that to work first before we

1394
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:37,160
try and then turn the mirror
back on ourselves and try and

1395
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:40,080
use those learnings to help
understand and improve human

1396
01:12:40,080 --> 01:12:42,120
consciousness.
But that's really where I want

1397
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:45,400
to go long term with this, with
this project and this mission is

1398
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:48,680
understand consciousness well
enough so that we can understand

1399
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:53,480
how it works in people.
And then we can improve our own

1400
01:12:53,480 --> 01:12:56,120
consciousness.
We can improve the connection we

1401
01:12:56,120 --> 01:12:59,360
have with each other and we can
help situations where I think

1402
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:01,640
consciousness goes wrong, if you
like.

1403
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:04,920
So kind of to put it in those
terms, but there's a lot of like

1404
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:08,400
mental health disorders that are
extremely severe that I'd class

1405
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:11,040
as issue, but problems with
consciousness.

1406
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:13,400
So if we can really understand
consciousness, we might be able

1407
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:16,480
to help people that are, that
are suffering from, from some of

1408
01:13:16,480 --> 01:13:18,640
those problems.
That's, that's like what, what

1409
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:21,280
I'd really like to see is, you
know, just those understanding

1410
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:23,480
ourselves more.
And in fact, that's what I think

1411
01:13:23,480 --> 01:13:25,480
the teleology is.
I think the universe is trying

1412
01:13:25,480 --> 01:13:28,800
to understand itself.
So I'm really just, I'm just

1413
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:32,880
acting on behalf of.
Which is very much an idealist a

1414
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:36,960
view, because that that is, that
is fundamentally what almost all

1415
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:40,080
idealist philosophers I speak to
come to conclude.

1416
01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:43,000
It's either that the universe is
finding a way to understand

1417
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:48,560
itself, or it's trying to reach
a goal of pure love in, in that

1418
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:52,680
we're all one, which in in
essence is trying to become one

1419
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:56,360
and understand itself.
So, and, and, and if you look at

1420
01:13:56,360 --> 01:13:58,680
it, this, I mean, it's very hard
to hate on a philosophy like

1421
01:13:58,680 --> 01:13:59,560
that.
It's, I know.

1422
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:03,360
Yeah.
And I think it's a kind of trade

1423
01:14:03,360 --> 01:14:07,960
off because I think in in the
philosophy I ascribe to, I

1424
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:10,280
think, yeah, there is this like
one state where everything can

1425
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:13,160
be connected.
But that is also what Buddhist

1426
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:15,760
will call Nirvana or the point
of ex extinguishment.

1427
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:19,920
So the point of full connection
is also the point of no, nothing

1428
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:22,640
happening anymore.
So I think the universe has this

1429
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:26,320
balance of trying to know itself
and understand itself and have

1430
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:28,160
experiences.
But when it does that, that

1431
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:31,160
comes along with negative as
well as positive experiences.

1432
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:34,840
So there's this kind of like
balance of the universe trying

1433
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:38,160
to create what I would say is
larger and larger and larger

1434
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:42,360
quantum states, larger pockets
of dissociation, which can have

1435
01:14:42,360 --> 01:14:45,480
extremely rich experiences, but
they always have to have that,

1436
01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:48,400
the classical boundaries around
them, otherwise they're not

1437
01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:51,560
going to experience everything.
So you have this like natural

1438
01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:55,320
balance of, I think of that this
is being like a foam of soap

1439
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:58,440
bubbles.
So imagine each dissociated part

1440
01:14:58,440 --> 01:15:00,200
of consciousness is like a
little bubble.

1441
01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:02,880
And if all the bubbles just
popped and joined together,

1442
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:04,800
there would be no boundaries
anymore.

1443
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:07,720
So there would be no individual
bubbles experiencing anymore.

1444
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:10,840
It would just be all one like
completely still thing.

1445
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:14,960
Whereas now if you have like
these bubbles all like boiling

1446
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:17,360
and together and joining and
splitting, you've got this much

1447
01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:20,160
richer kind of dynamics going on
in the universe.

1448
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:22,240
But that unfortunately comes
along with suffering.

1449
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:25,080
So what are you going to do if
you're the universe?

1450
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:29,440
You kind of give up your
stillness and your infinite love

1451
01:15:29,840 --> 01:15:32,720
to have more experience, I
think.

1452
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:35,000
I think that's kind of, I see
the trade off.

1453
01:15:35,440 --> 01:15:39,840
And sorry, a bird, I saw a bird
appear behind you but and it got

1454
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:44,000
me thinking within this friend.
It was like Carl Jung with the

1455
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:46,360
beetle as you.
Know the good disappearing.

1456
01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:48,560
Great way to segue to this
question because it really got

1457
01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:50,080
me thinking.
When you when you're talking

1458
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:52,080
about this bubble, and if you
think about the universe trying

1459
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:55,160
to understand itself and this
holistic universal perspective,

1460
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:58,880
what are your thoughts then on a
possibility that there are other

1461
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:03,640
forms of conscious life in the
universe already outside of what

1462
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:08,080
we have on Earth?
Yeah, I absolutely, I believe

1463
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:11,040
this and I think it's not just
as simple as people think.

1464
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:15,160
Like we have in a, in the spirit
of Donald Huffman, we have like

1465
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:17,680
1 very specific way of looking
at the world.

1466
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:20,960
We have one interface.
We see some things in some way.

1467
01:16:21,320 --> 01:16:23,720
I think this stuff out there
that we don't really understand

1468
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:27,600
yet, that's almost like beyond
the physical space-time

1469
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:30,360
dimensions with which we
understand the world.

1470
01:16:30,360 --> 01:16:33,560
So I'm totally of the opinion
that there could be like

1471
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:36,440
dissociated pockets of
consciousness that are not, that

1472
01:16:36,440 --> 01:16:39,520
don't look anything like brains
and bodies and that kind of

1473
01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:42,000
thing.
Actually, people, people report

1474
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:45,880
this, they report having
experiences on DMT or they'll

1475
01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:49,960
have like a spiritual experience
or they'll have an out of body

1476
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:54,640
experience or something like
that where they feel that there

1477
01:16:54,640 --> 01:16:59,040
are other beings like out there.
And I kind of take that idea

1478
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:00,400
seriously.
I think.

1479
01:17:00,560 --> 01:17:04,080
I think there could be.
And I think that works in

1480
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:05,920
multiple ways.
Yeah, I think it and I think

1481
01:17:05,920 --> 01:17:08,840
it's, it works in multiple ways,
especially considering the view

1482
01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:11,160
of a pan psycho's view.
You have to step down with, I

1483
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:15,080
mean, just merely having planets
all over the place, just

1484
01:17:15,480 --> 01:17:18,640
billions and billions of planets
that it, it makes the

1485
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:20,720
possibility for more likely
within that philosophical

1486
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:23,640
framework, even if it's not
necessarily what we believe it

1487
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:26,640
might look like.
Yeah, that proto version.

1488
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:30,640
Actually, one thing that's
really interesting here is maybe

1489
01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:32,960
your audience can help me
understand the difference

1490
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:34,640
between these views.
But I think the difference

1491
01:17:34,640 --> 01:17:38,120
really between an idealist
viewpoint and a psychist

1492
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:43,520
viewpoint is whether or not
there's a background in an

1493
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:45,640
associated state.
So this is quite a little bit

1494
01:17:45,640 --> 01:17:47,640
difficult to explain without a
diagram.

1495
01:17:48,040 --> 01:17:50,960
You know, I mentioned there's
this like foam of all the

1496
01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:53,600
bubbles, all the little
dissociated consciousness is all

1497
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:55,600
over the place.
Imagine that those bubbles are

1498
01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:58,720
like all joined together and
they all just like sit right

1499
01:17:58,720 --> 01:18:01,520
next to each other and they
fill, they like tile the plane

1500
01:18:01,520 --> 01:18:03,680
completely.
That's more of a pan psychist

1501
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:06,000
view.
Whereas I think if an idealist

1502
01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:08,600
view is imagine the bubbles are
now more isolated from one

1503
01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:12,120
another, and then there's this
kind of background consciousness

1504
01:18:12,120 --> 01:18:15,960
that they're all connected to.
So that fits better with, I

1505
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:18,800
think how Bernardo Castro
describes things where it's like

1506
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:23,120
mind at large is this background
and then it dissociates little

1507
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:26,720
pockets of itself, but they're
still connected to this mind at

1508
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:30,520
large, which you could some
people could think of as a God

1509
01:18:30,520 --> 01:18:33,160
or something like that.
Whereas A panpsychist view maybe

1510
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:36,720
like pushes out the God and all
these little bubbles are just

1511
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:40,000
now drawing to each other.
So that's something I like think

1512
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:44,240
about quite often is, you know,
how whether there's a mind at

1513
01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:47,480
large or a large consciousness
that sort of surrounds

1514
01:18:47,480 --> 01:18:49,760
everything.
It's it's, yeah, it's a flip of

1515
01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:52,640
the question almost.
It's like an idealist is

1516
01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:58,120
everything is consciousness and
a panpsychist is everything is

1517
01:18:58,120 --> 01:19:02,960
conscious.
So it's kind of that that's kind

1518
01:19:02,960 --> 01:19:06,280
of that that slight difference
is an idealist will say that

1519
01:19:06,280 --> 01:19:09,960
everything is consciousness, so
it's all one.

1520
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:11,800
And then that's the background
you're talking about.

1521
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:14,640
That is that that main
background where isn't a pan

1522
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:17,360
psychist would say everything is
conscious.

1523
01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:21,440
And yeah, and I find the best
that's for me, that's the

1524
01:19:21,440 --> 01:19:23,240
easiest way.
I try and remember it just to

1525
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:25,920
because because there's so many
versions within them as well,

1526
01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:27,520
and you have to try and
understand each one.

1527
01:19:27,520 --> 01:19:30,120
I mean, as you just said, a
teleological protopanpsychism.

1528
01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:33,160
If you're going to go down each
one, you need to have some sort

1529
01:19:33,160 --> 01:19:36,960
of your own lay version of
trying to understand it another

1530
01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:38,000
way.
When you're talking about that

1531
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:41,400
reminded me of when Albert
Einstein spoke about space-time.

1532
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:43,840
And if you think about a balloon
with those same bubbles you're

1533
01:19:43,840 --> 01:19:46,640
talking about, it's on the
outside of the balloon, and then

1534
01:19:46,640 --> 01:19:49,280
we're expanding it away.
The bubbles look like they're

1535
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:51,520
further away, but they're still
all touching the balloon.

1536
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:53,960
And that's kind of an idealist
version.

1537
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:57,920
Whereas you could have all the
bubbles inside this balloon and

1538
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:00,480
all of those things are
conscious and they're they're

1539
01:20:00,480 --> 01:20:02,640
sort of separate friends in the
physical world.

1540
01:20:02,840 --> 01:20:05,840
But now I could be.
I go super back and forth on

1541
01:20:05,840 --> 01:20:09,320
this all the time because like
my brains like, OK, we have a

1542
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:13,120
panpsychist view better captures
what we see in physics, right?

1543
01:20:13,120 --> 01:20:16,440
Because we see electrons and
atoms always doing the same

1544
01:20:16,440 --> 01:20:18,640
thing.
And in my model, that's because

1545
01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:21,720
they're like tiny dissociated
agents and they're connected to

1546
01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:24,200
all these other tiny dissociated
agents everywhere.

1547
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:27,680
And so you see that.
And but if, if, if instead that

1548
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:30,680
everything was connected to a
more like universal mind at

1549
01:20:30,680 --> 01:20:34,240
large, you'd expect to see weird
stuff more often, right?

1550
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:38,040
Because mind at large is, is
like the biggest quantum

1551
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:40,720
conscious agent of all.
It surrounds all the others.

1552
01:20:40,720 --> 01:20:44,520
It's going to be having super
weird, rich, complex thoughts.

1553
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:48,000
And we're connected to it and
we're we're perceiving the

1554
01:20:48,080 --> 01:20:52,360
output of its thoughts.
So you'd think if that was true,

1555
01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:56,320
reality would look way weirder
than it does, right?

1556
01:20:56,400 --> 01:20:58,840
Because you got to think the
thoughts of God are going to be

1557
01:20:58,840 --> 01:21:02,560
way richer and more complex than
say, just like electrons always

1558
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:05,440
doing the same thing.
So then I go more into the pan

1559
01:21:05,440 --> 01:21:07,960
psychics view.
But then I'm like, OK, but wait

1560
01:21:07,960 --> 01:21:12,200
a minute, weird things do seem
to happen sometimes that people

1561
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:16,000
can't explain or can't describe.
So maybe in that case, those are

1562
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:20,200
the larger consciousness having
a weird thought and then it

1563
01:21:20,200 --> 01:21:22,640
appears to us through our
boundary, right.

1564
01:21:23,080 --> 01:21:25,400
So I kind of go back and forth
on these two things and I think,

1565
01:21:25,400 --> 01:21:29,840
well, maybe there is a sort of
background, but then all these

1566
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:34,480
like dissociated parts that form
fundamental particles are mostly

1567
01:21:34,480 --> 01:21:36,960
what we see the bubbles.
Like we're mostly surrounded by

1568
01:21:36,960 --> 01:21:40,440
the bubbles, but every so often
that they kind of break apart.

1569
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:43,640
We, we, we actually see
something that's more like the

1570
01:21:43,640 --> 01:21:46,240
background mind at large.
And that might appear to us as

1571
01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:49,320
an unusual event or an
apparition or some like with a

1572
01:21:49,320 --> 01:21:51,600
synchronicity.
So I do, I do believe in

1573
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:54,560
synchronicity, by the way.
So I think like, OK, maybe

1574
01:21:54,560 --> 01:21:57,360
there's a maybe there's a merger
of these two models where it's

1575
01:21:57,360 --> 01:22:01,320
like hand psychism, but the bit,
the bits sort of move around and

1576
01:22:01,320 --> 01:22:03,880
it becomes more idealist and
then they kind of come back

1577
01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:05,560
together and it becomes more pan
psychic.

1578
01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:08,560
I mean, well, to round that off
to the synchronicity and the

1579
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:11,480
fact that we brought up, I
brought up John, John McFadden

1580
01:22:11,480 --> 01:22:13,880
and you're reading his book
currently it's and that is

1581
01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:17,360
pretty, pretty, pretty.
It is, It is weird, I know.

1582
01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:21,240
I have seen criticism all.
The time there and, and, and

1583
01:22:21,240 --> 01:22:23,520
when you think about it, he, he
wrote a book called Life is

1584
01:22:23,520 --> 01:22:27,720
Simple and Occam's Razor and he
talks, he actually did a lecture

1585
01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:30,120
on on mind body solution on
Occam's Razor.

1586
01:22:30,520 --> 01:22:35,280
And if you think about it, your
approach would be Occam's

1587
01:22:35,280 --> 01:22:38,560
razor's best version.
If you can explain consciousness

1588
01:22:39,040 --> 01:22:41,800
and you want the mechanics at
the same time, you've basically

1589
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:43,760
done exactly what he wants out
of science.

1590
01:22:43,880 --> 01:22:47,040
And he's one of the first people
to actually make science the way

1591
01:22:47,040 --> 01:22:49,080
we sort of see it as it is
today.

1592
01:22:49,200 --> 01:22:52,880
How do you feel knowing that
that that's exactly what you

1593
01:22:52,920 --> 01:22:55,360
have to do?
I mean, I think Occam's Razor is

1594
01:22:55,360 --> 01:22:58,200
a really great argument against
this, what's called the two

1595
01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:01,000
mysteries argument.
So people say, oh, quantum is

1596
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:03,520
mysterious and consciousness is
mysterious, so they must be

1597
01:23:03,520 --> 01:23:05,520
linked.
Ha, ha, ha, isn't that funny?

1598
01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:08,400
You, you're like such a naive
thinker that you'd think that

1599
01:23:08,400 --> 01:23:10,840
it's like, well, OK, why
couldn't the opposite be true?

1600
01:23:10,840 --> 01:23:13,480
Like why couldn't these two
mysteries that look like 2

1601
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:16,800
strangely shaped jigsaw pieces
that go together, like not

1602
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:19,560
actually go together?
And I think like applying

1603
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:23,120
Occam's razor is it's good here.
And I think the thing that

1604
01:23:23,120 --> 01:23:26,400
really made me take quantum
consciousness seriously was

1605
01:23:27,360 --> 01:23:29,800
realizing that there are
actually experiments we can do.

1606
01:23:30,680 --> 01:23:34,640
So the thing that that tipped me
over the edge from thinking it

1607
01:23:34,640 --> 01:23:38,120
was a curiosity to actually
wanting to work in the field was

1608
01:23:38,120 --> 01:23:40,880
realizing that it's not just
philosophical anymore because we

1609
01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:42,680
have we have quantum systems
now.

1610
01:23:42,680 --> 01:23:46,480
We have quantum computers today
that we can access and program.

1611
01:23:46,880 --> 01:23:49,880
No one's really, I don't think
people have taken them as far as

1612
01:23:49,880 --> 01:23:53,080
we could take them in terms of
running, doing these kind of

1613
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:56,240
experiments.
And OK, they're still small,

1614
01:23:56,240 --> 01:23:58,600
small numbers of qubits.
I mean, if you talk to Hammer

1615
01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:01,240
off, he'll tell you there's like
a billion qubits inside a neuron

1616
01:24:01,240 --> 01:24:05,000
or whatever.
But we only got smaller of

1617
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:06,960
qubits to play with.
But maybe that's all you need.

1618
01:24:06,960 --> 01:24:10,400
Maybe like we could look at some
proto consciousness experiments.

1619
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:15,560
And so yeah, I think it's, I
definitely think it's worth

1620
01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:18,560
looking at 2 mysteries and
seeing if they if they fit

1621
01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:20,320
together.
I think so too.

1622
01:24:20,320 --> 01:24:22,320
And I think the work you're
doing is incredible and I

1623
01:24:22,320 --> 01:24:26,240
appreciate it very much.
And and I can't wait to see what

1624
01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:28,720
you guys come up with it.
Is there anything about Novonic

1625
01:24:29,080 --> 01:24:31,680
Technologies that you'd like to
mention, Suzanne, that you feel

1626
01:24:31,680 --> 01:24:34,480
like you haven't touched on
about the even the technical

1627
01:24:34,480 --> 01:24:35,760
detail?
There's not anything you feel

1628
01:24:35,760 --> 01:24:38,280
like you want to bring up so
that the audience knows because

1629
01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:41,280
the people watching the show
generally are quite well

1630
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:43,760
informed and hopefully might
want to check this out.

1631
01:24:44,040 --> 01:24:46,200
What do you, is there anything
you'd like to share that?

1632
01:24:46,760 --> 01:24:49,600
Yeah.
Yeah, so first of all, we're

1633
01:24:49,600 --> 01:24:52,000
going to be going into a little
bit of a stealth mode for a

1634
01:24:52,000 --> 01:24:55,240
while because we've like when
they started Nirvana.

1635
01:24:55,240 --> 01:24:59,240
I, I kind of have two main
things I wanted to do.

1636
01:24:59,520 --> 01:25:02,400
So one of them was just raise
the profile on the credibility

1637
01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:05,400
of this whole field in general,
because if someone doesn't take

1638
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:08,200
something seriously, then they
won't even look at what you're

1639
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:10,320
doing.
So I've got these like two

1640
01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:12,720
things we do at Novanic.
One of them is what I call

1641
01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:15,880
outreach, communication,
marketing of the idea itself,

1642
01:25:15,880 --> 01:25:18,560
because the idea itself needs to
be taken more seriously.

1643
01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:22,480
But what's happened is we've,
we've done like me and my team

1644
01:25:22,480 --> 01:25:25,680
and my partner specifically have
done an amazing job of actually

1645
01:25:25,680 --> 01:25:28,880
like marketing this idea now.
And it's almost gone too much

1646
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:30,920
into that direction now.
Everyone's excited about it.

1647
01:25:30,920 --> 01:25:33,800
Everyone's always asking us
like, you know, can you show us

1648
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:35,240
some results?
Can you show us this?

1649
01:25:35,320 --> 01:25:38,040
And I'm like, OK, we need to
actually now step back a bit,

1650
01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:41,200
really focus on doing the
science, doing the results,

1651
01:25:41,200 --> 01:25:44,640
getting more experiments done,
and then we can actually like

1652
01:25:44,640 --> 01:25:47,120
start presenting some of those
results, like science of

1653
01:25:47,120 --> 01:25:48,680
consciousness.
So in a way, we've been a victim

1654
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:52,360
of our own success in terms of
getting the idea right there and

1655
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:54,880
talking about it.
But I think that's really an

1656
01:25:54,880 --> 01:25:57,800
important part of what we're
doing here is just educating

1657
01:25:58,200 --> 01:26:02,400
people on this this whole like
area and making it more

1658
01:26:02,440 --> 01:26:05,520
credible, bringing it into the
realm of technology and

1659
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:08,560
engineering.
I think our approach is the

1660
01:26:08,560 --> 01:26:10,960
reason our approach is different
than others is we're not just

1661
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:14,440
philosophizing about it and
we're not doing neuroscience,

1662
01:26:14,440 --> 01:26:17,760
we're not doing biology, we're
not studying microtubules and

1663
01:26:17,760 --> 01:26:20,000
all that other kind of stuff.
We're actually trying to take

1664
01:26:21,480 --> 01:26:23,080
more abstract way of looking at
it.

1665
01:26:23,080 --> 01:26:27,320
It's like, can we use quantum
systems themselves to explore a

1666
01:26:27,440 --> 01:26:30,280
bodied consciousness?
And I don't there aren't many

1667
01:26:30,280 --> 01:26:33,040
other people working on that.
So I've seen a violence like

1668
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:37,600
filling a niche, bridging a gap
between philosophy and then

1669
01:26:37,600 --> 01:26:41,800
engineering in in practice.
And so yeah, it's, it's super

1670
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:44,400
exciting.
But so don't worry people, if

1671
01:26:44,400 --> 01:26:46,600
you don't hear much from us in
the next few months.

1672
01:26:46,680 --> 01:26:48,800
We are.
Immediately heads down doing a

1673
01:26:48,800 --> 01:26:51,360
bunch of experts.
I agree with you though, because

1674
01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:57,160
you guys are doing such a great
job that even Sabine, it's quite

1675
01:26:57,200 --> 01:26:58,680
that's funny.
That's when you know you've.

1676
01:26:58,680 --> 01:27:00,920
Actually, although I think like
later on she actually did a

1677
01:27:00,920 --> 01:27:03,560
video talking about something
like Quantum.

1678
01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:04,760
Has she?
I haven't.

1679
01:27:04,760 --> 01:27:07,400
I need to go back I.
Think maybe she'll come round

1680
01:27:07,400 --> 01:27:10,560
one day, but fair enough.
I mean, she was a little

1681
01:27:10,840 --> 01:27:13,760
abrasive and negative on it.
But it's fine for scientists to

1682
01:27:13,760 --> 01:27:17,080
say, look, this is I don't
believe this, I'm skeptical

1683
01:27:17,080 --> 01:27:19,520
about it, There's no evidence,
blah, blah, blah, blah.

1684
01:27:19,520 --> 01:27:22,160
But I think we need to temper
that with a little.

1685
01:27:22,840 --> 01:27:25,200
But I'm glad you're you're
actually researching it and I

1686
01:27:25,200 --> 01:27:28,480
think it's worth at least having
a couple of people studying.

1687
01:27:29,120 --> 01:27:30,840
This, I mean, it goes back to
what you were saying about that

1688
01:27:30,840 --> 01:27:33,200
one to 5%.
If one to 5% of people believe

1689
01:27:33,200 --> 01:27:35,640
this, you should, you should at
least have within the scientific

1690
01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:37,440
community 1 to 5% funded for
this.

1691
01:27:37,440 --> 01:27:40,080
And and that makes a lot that
makes a lot of sense to me.

1692
01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:43,280
I think it's I, I struggle with
the same thing with this podcast

1693
01:27:43,280 --> 01:27:44,480
itself.
Getting guests.

1694
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:47,520
You have to, you can't because
you don't want to fall into

1695
01:27:47,520 --> 01:27:49,800
audience capture and just only
have idealist guests.

1696
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:52,880
So only have materialist guests.
You, you, you kind of need to

1697
01:27:52,880 --> 01:27:55,440
find that balance.
And it's tough because sometimes

1698
01:27:55,440 --> 01:27:59,440
the thinkers you want on the
show, sometimes they know, and

1699
01:27:59,440 --> 01:28:03,680
then more of the thinkers you
might want less of that

1700
01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:07,240
philosophy will still say yes.
So you're stuck trying to find

1701
01:28:07,240 --> 01:28:09,360
this balance.
And, and, and, and I understand

1702
01:28:09,360 --> 01:28:11,320
where you're coming from, but
the work you're doing is

1703
01:28:11,320 --> 01:28:13,960
incredible.
I think Sabine obviously has her

1704
01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:17,760
view of this and, and, and it,
it doesn't really matter because

1705
01:28:17,760 --> 01:28:20,440
as long as everybody's exploring
this field, the field that we

1706
01:28:20,440 --> 01:28:24,280
love so much, it's, you know, it
makes me excited And, and I'm

1707
01:28:24,280 --> 01:28:27,200
looking forward to seeing what
you guys come up with and I'm

1708
01:28:27,200 --> 01:28:28,480
looking.
Actually, one cool thing about

1709
01:28:28,480 --> 01:28:31,080
Nirvanic is that you don't
actually have to buy Arcoa.

1710
01:28:32,560 --> 01:28:34,960
So it's kind.
Of broader than that, so you

1711
01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:38,520
don't have to believe arc OR is
the theory and you don't have to

1712
01:28:38,520 --> 01:28:40,320
believe microtubules are the
mechanism.

1713
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:44,000
So what we're trying to do is
say kind of quant does a quantum

1714
01:28:44,000 --> 01:28:50,040
system have agency when it's put
in charge of an embodiment in

1715
01:28:50,040 --> 01:28:52,560
the real environment?
So that doesn't necessarily mean

1716
01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:54,480
there's any quantum gravity
going on.

1717
01:28:54,480 --> 01:28:57,080
All it's saying is a quantum
system collapsing is making a

1718
01:28:57,080 --> 01:28:58,520
choice.
It doesn't say how it's

1719
01:28:58,520 --> 01:29:01,440
collapsing or why, and it
doesn't, you know, invoke

1720
01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:04,080
necessarily really microtubule
because there are other theories

1721
01:29:04,120 --> 01:29:06,760
of quantum consciousness that do
not require microtubules.

1722
01:29:06,760 --> 01:29:12,400
In fact, in the Life on the Edge
book, John, Joe and Jim talk

1723
01:29:12,400 --> 01:29:15,600
about potentially could be ion
channels and EM fields that.

1724
01:29:15,640 --> 01:29:17,880
Immediate the the semi field
theory.

1725
01:29:17,880 --> 01:29:19,240
Have you gotten to that part of
the book yet?

1726
01:29:19,240 --> 01:29:20,360
I'm not sure, I don't want to
spoil.

1727
01:29:20,360 --> 01:29:23,040
I'm just getting into it.
I was like super excited and I

1728
01:29:23,040 --> 01:29:25,480
was like, no, I have to go to
bed because I have to do this

1729
01:29:25,480 --> 01:29:27,480
podcast tomorrow morning, so I
didn't get to read.

1730
01:29:27,880 --> 01:29:30,560
I've done a full podcast with
John Jim McFadden about semi

1731
01:29:30,560 --> 01:29:33,560
field theory and and he's doing
a lecture for me in May.

1732
01:29:33,560 --> 01:29:36,720
So at some point he's going to
do a full lecture on semi field

1733
01:29:36,720 --> 01:29:39,240
theory in detail.
But it's, it's very fascinating.

1734
01:29:39,240 --> 01:29:42,360
And I must say that it's one of
those theories where the, if you

1735
01:29:42,360 --> 01:29:45,320
look at consciousness, it's
electromagnetic information

1736
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:47,880
field, it, it, it's, it's quite
convincing.

1737
01:29:47,880 --> 01:29:51,360
And Stewart says he doesn't
consider that fear, that theory

1738
01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:56,240
to be quantum necessarily
because it's, but I, I do, I

1739
01:29:56,240 --> 01:30:00,120
think it's Jim and John Joe are
pretty much quantum biologists

1740
01:30:00,120 --> 01:30:02,120
at this point.
So it's quite hard to not say it

1741
01:30:02,120 --> 01:30:04,320
is.
It's really interesting, like we

1742
01:30:04,320 --> 01:30:07,880
could the neuronic stuff would
be agnostic to either of those

1743
01:30:07,880 --> 01:30:10,240
theories.
It might slightly align more

1744
01:30:10,240 --> 01:30:13,320
with the microtubule stuff
because a quantum computer is

1745
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:16,120
made of like locally connected
electronic devices.

1746
01:30:16,120 --> 01:30:18,840
So it's kind of easier to
imagine it being similar to a

1747
01:30:19,160 --> 01:30:22,200
network of microtubules and say
an EM field.

1748
01:30:22,400 --> 01:30:27,240
If we want to do more of the EM
field quantum consciousness, we

1749
01:30:27,240 --> 01:30:31,200
might need new quantum computers
that use that mediate

1750
01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:35,360
entanglement through say a
photon field somehow interacting

1751
01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:38,840
with superconducting devices.
So, but to me that's just more,

1752
01:30:38,840 --> 01:30:41,080
more excitement, right?
Because now, oh, maybe we could

1753
01:30:41,080 --> 01:30:44,080
develop a new kind of quantum
computer based on this idea.

1754
01:30:44,080 --> 01:30:47,080
So it's all opportunities in my.
Mind, my only thought here is,

1755
01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:50,400
is after you're done reading
that book and exploring his work

1756
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:52,720
more, you might start
implementing some of this and

1757
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:55,080
actually start changing the
direction of your work a little.

1758
01:30:55,080 --> 01:30:57,760
Because it is.
He's very, very, very convincing

1759
01:30:57,760 --> 01:30:59,360
and very smart.
And it's, it's always been

1760
01:30:59,360 --> 01:31:01,960
chatting to him.
But yeah, the, the work you guys

1761
01:31:01,960 --> 01:31:03,760
are doing, keep it up.
It's it's amazing.

1762
01:31:03,960 --> 01:31:06,600
Is there anything in general
about Novonic, you know, you'd

1763
01:31:06,600 --> 01:31:10,440
like people to know, be aware of
in general and and thereafter, I

1764
01:31:10,440 --> 01:31:12,960
just want to finally touch on
one last thing after this.

1765
01:31:15,280 --> 01:31:17,800
Well, maybe I could tell a
little story about the an

1766
01:31:17,880 --> 01:31:21,760
interesting synchronicity that
happened just before I started

1767
01:31:21,760 --> 01:31:24,600
Novonic.
So actually this painting on my

1768
01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:27,840
wall explains it quite well.
So if you do these artworks with

1769
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:32,960
a techno kind of spirituality,
technical things meets nature.

1770
01:31:32,960 --> 01:31:37,360
And this was a microprocessor
circuit that I depicted and I

1771
01:31:37,360 --> 01:31:40,720
did this in 2020.
And then four years later I

1772
01:31:40,720 --> 01:31:44,280
found out that the designer of
this microprocessor was Federico

1773
01:31:44,280 --> 01:31:47,280
Fijin.
And more than that, his initials

1774
01:31:47,280 --> 01:31:51,920
are actually part of the circuit
that I drew that I painted in

1775
01:31:51,920 --> 01:31:53,720
this painting.
It says FF on it.

1776
01:31:53,720 --> 01:31:57,120
And if you can see, but FF is
Federico Fujian.

1777
01:31:57,120 --> 01:31:59,160
And I, I did this like 4 years
ago.

1778
01:31:59,160 --> 01:32:02,120
And then only last year did I
realize that he's moved into

1779
01:32:02,120 --> 01:32:04,920
quantum consciousness.
Now he's like one of my biggest

1780
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:08,200
inspirations and his his
initials are staring at me all

1781
01:32:08,200 --> 01:32:11,600
that time.
I'm going to send.

1782
01:32:11,600 --> 01:32:13,760
I'm going to send this clip to
Federica's e-mail.

1783
01:32:13,800 --> 01:32:17,120
Yeah, I just love that story and
I would love to send him a piece

1784
01:32:17,120 --> 01:32:20,560
of artwork to memories.
I'm definitely going to bring

1785
01:32:20,560 --> 01:32:22,240
that up with him when I.
Speak, yeah, yeah.

1786
01:32:22,720 --> 01:32:26,160
In terms of Nirvana, just like
really excited about the

1787
01:32:26,160 --> 01:32:30,800
combination of actually putting
robots into the mix, I guess is

1788
01:32:30,800 --> 01:32:32,880
the most interesting thing
because, you know, everyone's

1789
01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:35,400
looking at consciousness, but
few people are looking at the

1790
01:32:35,400 --> 01:32:38,120
behavioral correlates, like what
does consciousness actually do

1791
01:32:38,120 --> 01:32:40,400
in the world?
So I think that that's kind of

1792
01:32:40,400 --> 01:32:42,280
the thing I'm most excited about
at the moment.

1793
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:47,200
The to to end of, I think a nice
way to round it off would be at

1794
01:32:47,200 --> 01:32:49,560
the science consciousness.
Hopefully I'll try and get this

1795
01:32:49,560 --> 01:32:51,680
episode uploaded before that
that happens.

1796
01:32:51,680 --> 01:32:55,200
We'll see how things go.
But when, when you go into this

1797
01:32:55,200 --> 01:32:57,560
conference, what are you going
into it with?

1798
01:32:57,560 --> 01:32:59,960
What's what can we expect?
Because I'm pretty sure this

1799
01:32:59,960 --> 01:33:03,680
episode will be out before then.
Anything we can look forward to?

1800
01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:05,400
And yeah, hopefully I see you
there.

1801
01:33:06,800 --> 01:33:09,720
Yeah, So what to expect?
Well, I'll be showing the

1802
01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:13,720
scientific results, whether or
not they support the hypothesis

1803
01:33:13,720 --> 01:33:15,560
'cause I'm trying to be very
scientific about this.

1804
01:33:15,560 --> 01:33:19,240
So I'm going to show what I've
done so far in the experiments,

1805
01:33:19,760 --> 01:33:24,440
collecting data from robot
behavioral trials, from looking

1806
01:33:24,440 --> 01:33:26,960
inside the quantum conscious
agents themselves.

1807
01:33:26,960 --> 01:33:29,600
So I don't want to give away too
much, but I've got a way of

1808
01:33:29,600 --> 01:33:34,040
actually visualizing like a
quantum state as it forms and

1809
01:33:34,040 --> 01:33:37,440
then as it chooses, like makes a
decision and moves the robot.

1810
01:33:37,440 --> 01:33:39,480
So I'm going to be showing some
of that.

1811
01:33:39,640 --> 01:33:43,240
And it may be that we've found
some interesting results, or it

1812
01:33:43,240 --> 01:33:46,240
may be that, you know, it's it's
we haven't yet and maybe we're

1813
01:33:46,240 --> 01:33:48,280
just looking at the wrong part
of parameter space.

1814
01:33:48,280 --> 01:33:53,840
So I'll be describing it either
way, the approach and hopefully

1815
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:57,880
we'll find something cool.
Well, I'm looking forward to it

1816
01:33:57,880 --> 01:34:00,600
and I'm excited because I might
get to see it live.

1817
01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:03,760
So this, Yeah.
So this will be such a cool.

1818
01:34:03,760 --> 01:34:06,800
These robots are easy to fit in
the backpack, so I can bring

1819
01:34:06,800 --> 01:34:10,840
them around with me, Yeah.
And yeah, and I and Federica's

1820
01:34:10,840 --> 01:34:12,200
going to be there.
So I think you should do

1821
01:34:12,200 --> 01:34:14,760
anything that you should
actually take a photo of that

1822
01:34:14,760 --> 01:34:18,200
and make sure you've got a book
to show it to him because he's

1823
01:34:18,520 --> 01:34:20,880
and he's such a he's such a
lovely person that when you

1824
01:34:20,880 --> 01:34:23,520
speak to him about the kill,
he'll be so exciting to hear

1825
01:34:23,520 --> 01:34:24,640
that tell.
It's it's beautiful.

1826
01:34:25,520 --> 01:34:26,880
Yeah.
Anna, Suzanne, thank you so much

1827
01:34:26,880 --> 01:34:30,080
for this wonderful chat.
It's, it's truly a night thing.

1828
01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:33,560
And it's great to see people who
love the same thing that I do

1829
01:34:33,560 --> 01:34:36,640
going into this field and
actually taking it as far as was

1830
01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:39,320
like actively engaging with it.
And even though you might

1831
01:34:39,320 --> 01:34:44,320
consider it fringe, or well, you
don't, but even though it's

1832
01:34:44,320 --> 01:34:47,560
probably considered that way.
I like to say quantum weirdos

1833
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:49,200
unite.
Yeah, exactly.

1834
01:34:49,880 --> 01:34:51,600
Awesome Tevin, thanks for the
opportunity.

1835
01:34:51,600 --> 01:34:54,440
Love having these conversations
so looking forward to the next

1836
01:34:54,440 --> 01:34:54,600
one.