Susan Blackmore: A New Approach to Consciousness from the Perspective of a Panpsychism of Models

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All those priors, all those
assumptions that we've made that

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go into our experience, that is,
I'm a model, I'm in here, I'm

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looking out.
And that's what we think of as

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that's consciousness.
All this other stuff going on in

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the brain is not conscious.
Well, I'm disputing that

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completely, saying there's
something it's like to be all of

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these, but we're deluded
because.

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Oh, how's things going, Sue?
How are you?

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I'm fine.
I mentioned in in the e-mail

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that I, I'm, I'm down in my Hut.
I have this writing Hut down in

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Salcombe, which is a little town
by the sea.

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I, I can look out there and look
at the water and the howling

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Gale and the wind and the rain
at the moment again.

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And I've just done a 10 day
online retreat here, which

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finished on Sunday night.
So I'm still a bit sort of be

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mindful, but to.
All of those who who are

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watching this are listening.
The last time we spoke, you also

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just finished a retreat, which
is pretty cool.

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That's weird.
At the right time.

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Yeah.
Good.

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I I normally only do 1A year
occasionally, but that is a

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slightly odd coincidence, yes.
Anyway, how are you?

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I'm good, I'm great.
A lot has changed since we last

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spoke.
You sent me an e-mail a few

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weeks ago saying we've got it
all wrong about consciousness

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and it's a new revelation.
I would say you you've

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experienced some sort of a new
thought within the consciousness

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community.
So I'm super eager to discuss

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and I say that.
Well, it's not that super

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brilliant at all.
It's actually only a part of

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what we talked about last time,
but I thought, well, is it

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different?
And it's very hard for me to

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remember exact.
Do you find this?

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I remember you last time telling
me you know about your

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progression of your thoughts.
And do you find it hard to

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remember what you thought two
years ago or four years ago?

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It is, it's, it's every time I
read it back, I, I feel like

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another person, you know,
continuously evolving and it,

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it's, I think the more people
you're exposed to and the

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different theories, especially
with this channel, because it's

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all I explore all the time.
It's it's becoming a blur.

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Yeah, Yeah.
Well, let me try and answer the

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question that you asked.
Given that I can't remember what

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I said last time or even what I
thought a few years ago.

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If I said something that sounded
a bit dramatic, it was only

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this, the fun, the most
fundamental.

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Look, going back a bit, you
know, we talked about

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illusionism and well, and my
delusionism that we're just

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deluded from the very beginning
in the way we think about our

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own minds.
And I, when I thought about it,

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I thought the most fundamental
assumption that people make and

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it underlies the neural
correlates of consciousness and

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all sorts of other problems, is
that it is the physical object

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that is the subject of
consciousness.

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So is it, what is it like to be
a bat?

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Well, the assumption is that
it's the bat, this physical

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object called a bat that has
this thing called consciousness.

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So already by asking the
question that way, you are

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putting yourself into on the
verges of dualism and you must.

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It's inevitable that you're
going to have the heart problem.

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It's not sort of an accidental
thing you may or may not have.

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It's intrinsic in that question.
Now we're talking about, you

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know, what we used to think.
I'd never really queried that.

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It was a good question.
What is it like to be about?

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I thought there were problems
with it and difficulties, but

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fundamentally that's what we're
asking is what is it like?

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So I've changed from thinking
that the right question is what

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is it like to be a bat to what
is it like to be the bats model

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of a bat.
It's the models, the mental

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models that we build that are
the subjects of consciousness

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now.
It's not an earth shattering

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thing, but in a way it's
shattering to me in a way

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because, because it changes what
we're asking and it and it

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brings up all these questions
which you've gone on and on in

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your own mind about the nature
of the so-called physical world.

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Yes, it's very similar to
Michael Graziano's approach if

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you think about it, because
that's exactly what he talks

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about is, is that instead of
asking what is consciousness,

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ask what is the model that is
making us ask what is

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consciousness?
And try and figure out the

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answer to that question.
Is that approximately where

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you're headed with this?
No, but I you're, you're

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absolutely right to ask that
because I really like Graziano's

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attention schema theory.
I, when I came across it, I

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thought, of course, yeah, we
have a body schema.

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Now you, you know, all my work
on out of body experiences, the

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solution, the solution.
But the, the, the kind of piece

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that fell into, into, into place
in 2001 with, with Blanke's

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experiment study was, was
realising that it's a disruption

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of the body schema in the right
temporal parietal junction that

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causes the, my body schema's out
there now, you know, it causes

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the, the possibility of an out
of body experience.

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So I'm very familiar with that
idea.

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And then realising, of course,
we'd not only have to model our

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body and what our body is doing
all the time, but we have to

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model our attentional processes.
So we're not only paying

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attention to this, that and the
other, but we're having an

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overall high level model of our
attentional processes.

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Well, now I think I'm going to
some attention is just pulled

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automatically.
Some is now I'm going to pay

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attention to this.
I want to be more mindful of

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this, pay more attention to
this.

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And all this is modelling.
So I was very excited to when he

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first published that and
thinking this is great.

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And then I got thinking, as I
often do, about Dennett, my dear

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beloved no longer with us,
Dennett.

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And indeed Keith Bankish, who I
was talking to yesterday.

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Hang on a minute.
Why is there something it's like

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to be the attention schemer?
And he doesn't say.

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He doesn't even ask as well.
Maybe I need to read read his

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his work more closely, but I
don't think he even asks that

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question.
He slithers from this brilliant

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idea that somehow the attention
schema is important for

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consciousness Two.
Well, that's the theory of

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consciousness.
Well, it's not.

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It doesn't answer the question
now.

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Well, what do you think?
That's a tough one.

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I think the last time I spoke to
Mike, he I I sort of get where

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you're saying where you're
saying that this merely saying

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that there is a model that's
discussing consciousness, always

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asking the question of what is
it like to have consciousness

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still doesn't explain the hard
problem of consciousness.

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It's almost like it's, there's
still this gap that we need to

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solve.
So I sort of get where you're

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what you're, you're talking
about it, it, it's not like he's

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bridging the explanatory gap by
saying that.

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But how would you say your
version of this model is

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different from that?
OK, Yes, I agree with you.

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And we don't need to solve the
hard problem.

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We need to change it.
I mean, so many people have said

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the hard problem, which is why
I'm saying if you think there's

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something it's like to be a bat
or a robot or anything, you know

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you, you've inevitably got it.
So how do I, I would like to say

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I avoid it or get around it or
no.

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Well, anyway, whatever.
I don't solve it because I don't

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think it's a soluble problem.
But here is the suggestion,

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right, that all active mental
models, there's something it's

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like to be them, all of them.
What is it like to be any active

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mental model?
It's like whatever the model

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says it's like, because that's
what a model is.

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So in this brain here, this
massive hierarchical predictive

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processing kind of brain, there
are models at every level in a

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huge hierarchy and some of them
are incredibly simple.

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So in visual cortex, you know,
there will be models that are

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basically saying yes or no, it
is always not a line.

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And then there'll be slightly
more complicated ones saying

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this is a square and then
slightly more complicated ones.

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And then what then going on if
the, the temporal lobe, you'll

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have models of, you know, it's a
house, it's firing in the house

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area and that's changing it
from, you know, all the other

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things that it could be making
the comparison all the way up

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and you've got higher up.
I'm not saying there's a top

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that probably isn't, it's
probably more of a tangled

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hierarchy.
But I mean, this is something

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that's an empirical question
really is a is a model of self

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is a model I'm in here, I'm
looking out.

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And that's what we think of as
that's consciousness.

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All this other stuff going on in
the brain is not conscious.

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Well, I'm disputing that
completely, saying there's

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something it's like to be all of
these, but we're deluded because

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the only ones that we have,
because we are a model as well,

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the only ones that we're
conscious of is the ones that

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are in part of this model.
So philosophically this changes,

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this almost changes of you
because does does this lead?

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I was speaking to Peter Trusted
Hughes.

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Am I pronouncing that correctly
and he?

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Trusted Hughes, Yes.
He doesn't live too far away

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from you, so he was telling.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

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He lives in Exeter.
Yeah.

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Yeah.
He says, by the way, he says

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he's meaning to come and visit
soon.

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So just a message.
I keep asking him.

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We live in a fantastic barn,
converted barn by a Little River

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with our own bridge over the
river.

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And it's been a fantastic place
for the last 16 years.

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And I keep inviting him to come
because we're moving house soon

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and we have to leave this
wonderful place.

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I think, Peter, come on.
I you said you'd come and we'll,

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we'll sit and hang out and talk
about consciousness and we could

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even swim in the freezing cold
river.

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And, you know, I'm not sure he'd
want to do that.

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But yeah, if you talk to him
again, tell him, tell him to do

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it.
Yeah, he said the same thing.

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He said you're moving soon and
he actually is meant to come and

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see you and I think that's part
of his plan.

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So hope it happens soon.
Maybe he'll watch this.

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I'll tell him to watch it, but
he needs to visit soon.

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But let's he was I told him that
it might be transitioning into a

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panpsychism.
Your view.

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So so let's discuss that.
What are the philosophical

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implications of your new, let's
say, revelation?

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I was wondering whether we were
transiting to the Bible or

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whether you're thinking that
I've had a great revelation in

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the middle of the night and it's
all come clear.

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Words.
Word choice there.

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My bad your your recent change
of view.

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You know, I think it's great to
call it a revelation because I

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suppose it's as close to a
revelation as I'm likely to

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have, right?
What is its connection with

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panpsychism you were mentioning
in particular?

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Well, it is a kind of
panpsychism, but it's a very

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weird, like, there may be
philosophers out there who've

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done this before and it's all
old hat.

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I don't know, but I've certainly
not come across it.

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What by saying that every active
mental model in a predictive

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processing system, there's
something it's like to be that

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is a panpsychism of models.
I wish there was a better name

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than model because because
models sound so kind of passive.

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That's why I say active.
And I mean while it's happening,

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the, the, the brain processes
are, are making a guess about

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what's out there in the world.
And that guess is, well, at the

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moment my visual system is
guessing.

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If I look at that fence, it's
going to carry on around the

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corner and that sort of thing.
That is what I mean by these

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models.
But I'd like to have a better

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word for it.
Construction idea.

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No word fits perfectly, but
whatever it is a panpsychism of

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models.
Yes, that's that's in that

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sense, it's panpsychism.
It's nothing like the

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panpsychism of what's sometimes
called bottom up panpsychism

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that, you know, not only are
this you me bats, that chocolate

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biscuit that I haven't eaten yet
and the cup of tea and the

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table, you know, but the atoms
and molecules and right down to

224
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,360
the lowest level of what there
might muons and whatever there's

225
00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,960
something it's like to be them.
This is nothing like that.

226
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,520
And I assume it also doesn't go
all the way up into cosmosychism

227
00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:17,920
as well.
No, no, it doesn't unless I mean

228
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,000
it could in perhaps not the way
you mean.

229
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:29,720
But let's suppose that the the
AI gets keeps going in the way

230
00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,840
that it looks as if it's going
in the way that I've talked

231
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,600
about as as Treams, as as a
third replicator, where

232
00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,920
machinery that we produced, we
thought for our own benefit is

233
00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,840
actually now doing the copying
variant and selecting on its

234
00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:45,320
own.
And all this stuff is happening.

235
00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:48,840
And maybe it would connect up
with other planets if, you know,

236
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,680
you've got it kills all us off,
but somehow it doesn't kill us

237
00:13:52,680 --> 00:13:55,440
off before it's managed to get
its own system together to dig

238
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,760
up the oil and keep going and
can survive the terrible climate

239
00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:03,600
that that we're leaving for it.
And sorry, great doomsday

240
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:05,960
scenario.
There is a revelation.

241
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,360
Yeah, yeah, this is this is good
for the end of the, you know,

242
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,320
the the the new Bible.
Sorry, I'm a stop laughing.

243
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,320
So you could imagine that kind
of thing, multiplanet, if you

244
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:23,440
like, with non biological
machinery.

245
00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,080
But but if it worked in a in a
kind of predictive processing

246
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,120
way, modelling the world around
it, modelling the cosmos,

247
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,280
whatever that really means, and
connected up in a huge way, that

248
00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,320
would be a sort of Cosmo
panpsychism.

249
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:41,360
This idea doesn't rule out the
possibility of of the same thing

250
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,520
occurring in artificial systems
or in an enormously huge

251
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,440
interconnected systems.
Yes, I must say it's not.

252
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:54,600
It's not that uncommon for for
illusionist thinkers to slowly

253
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,280
tread along a panpsychist view.
Eventually it seems to be

254
00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,160
something that I find that I
found quite, quite common and

255
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,000
it's, it's not that much of A
leap, although it sounds like it

256
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,280
is, to go from nothing is
conscious to everything is

257
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,120
conscious.
It's, it's a very, there's a

258
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,320
very fine line where that tilt
occurs and it's happened to many

259
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,920
people, I think.
That's very interesting because

260
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:19,240
I think there are other contexts
in which if you get to one end

261
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,480
to nothing, actually it you kind
of flip back to the other end of

262
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,840
everything.
But but tell me more what you

263
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,960
think Some examples of this
where where this has happened

264
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,480
because I'm, I'm very interested
in my as it were, slide into a

265
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,040
version of panczygism.
How did this happen?

266
00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,240
I.
Think one example would be when

267
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,360
I spoke to Carl Preston about
this, and I and I mentioned if

268
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,440
you think of active inference,
if you talk about the brains

269
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,080
prior information, posterior
conclusions, the free energy

270
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,640
principle, is it not possible to
then conclude that there is no

271
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,600
consciousness and, and and go
down the philosophical route of

272
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,400
illusionism with your theory?
And he agreed.

273
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,120
He said, yes, it's very easy to
take that route.

274
00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,520
But on the on the flip side,
it's also very easy to use that

275
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,440
same very neuroscientific
physicalist theory and head down

276
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,600
a pan psychist route.
And then that's why his work

277
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,000
with Mike Levin occurs and all
the other work that's being done

278
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,080
in this field occurs with this
diverse intelligence mindset.

279
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,080
So it doesn't seem to be too
difficult.

280
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,800
And I see whereabout it kind of
happens with some thinkers.

281
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:22,400
And, and then I also think about
when Philip Goff used to say he

282
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,680
thinks pancykism is the number
one theory and he thinks that if

283
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,040
he had to choose on a second
theory, it would be illusionism.

284
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:28,560
And then that also sort of makes
sense.

285
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,520
And because it's it's not that
difficult.

286
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:31,880
It's still very much
physicalist.

287
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,680
It still has a lot of the same
elements.

288
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,720
It's it's not like a big leap
we, although it seems like it

289
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:42,360
is.
I think what's going on there?

290
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,000
I that's, that's great that
you've, you've described that

291
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:50,800
and, and noted that that Philip
and others have have gone that

292
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,440
way.
To me, the problem with where

293
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:59,720
that's gone is you are still
saying that the subject of the

294
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,280
experience is of what we call a
physical object.

295
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,119
And I'm jettisoning that because
that's the only way I can make

296
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,280
this work.
So why does the world seem to

297
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,200
have physical objects in it?
So if you if you take the leap

298
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,400
I've taken from a panpsychism of
models, I'm still saying there's

299
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,920
modelling machinery that is
doing the modelling.

300
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,839
That is saying that's a fence
out there and that's a tree.

301
00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:27,079
And that goes, you know,
whatever it is, and this is a

302
00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:29,800
problem.
What is the status of the actual

303
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,840
world, if there is such a thing?
What on earth is it?

304
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:40,680
Now, if you went to Bernardo
Castrop, his analytic idealism,

305
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,360
or Deepak Chopra, with whom I've
had such interesting disputes,

306
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,640
his, his form of, of Advaita
Vedanta and that form of

307
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,960
idealism, then you do away with
any external world.

308
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,320
But then I just don't get, and
I've, you know, argued this

309
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,240
with, with, with both of them.
Why does science work?

310
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:07,360
You know, why should the world
turn out to have things that

311
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:10,760
appear to be like brains that we
can do the maths and we can do

312
00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,200
the, the the experiments?
You know, why is that the case?

313
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,120
You've got to have an
explanation of that which

314
00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:19,120
materialism kind of gives you
reasons what what things happen

315
00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:20,520
and you can make sensible
theories.

316
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,800
So what do you do with a pure
idealism?

317
00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:24,520
I I think you've still got a
problem.

318
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:29,960
So I am really struggling and
wondering about theories or sort

319
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,080
of proto theories, ideas that
people are having physicists

320
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:41,400
mostly about some underlying
nature of something that gives

321
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,480
rise to the appearance of this
particular kind of physical

322
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:49,440
world in which brains, I mean,
we model brains, we get do

323
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,480
experiments.
And you know, when I think about

324
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,080
my brain in here, I've never
seen it.

325
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,080
And even if I did see it, it's
still a model of a brain.

326
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,520
But but the theory works on how
how the brain's doing it.

327
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,200
So this is this is the way it it
goes.

328
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:09,080
And there are physicists saying
because of the, you know, the

329
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,880
fundamental problems that
quantum mechanics is

330
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,080
incompatible with with
space-time.

331
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:15,680
And you know what does kinds of
things?

332
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,200
There's wonderful struggles
going on, but there are

333
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,040
physicists who say that space
and time are not fundamental.

334
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,960
Now we're getting back to
retreats here because it's not

335
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:31,880
that unusual in deep meditation
to have the revelation.

336
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,040
Didn't you like that word?
It's kind of realisation in

337
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,520
certain states that, oh, time is
just a construct.

338
00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:43,600
It, it literally feels seems to
have disappeared.

339
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,440
There is change, there's
something happening as it were,

340
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,440
but not in time.
Space as well kind of dissolves

341
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,640
and yet there's still something.
So that side of my life

342
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,800
encourages me to try and think
this way.

343
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,280
So is there some like Don
Hoffman for example, talks about

344
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,360
some underlying mathematical
structure.

345
00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:09,120
In no way can I understand the
maths obviously, but I I am.

346
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,320
Fascinated by the idea that
underlying this all there is

347
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,560
some kind of mathematical
structure which gives rise to

348
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,440
the sort of structures that we
have.

349
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:24,240
Unlike the idealism, which seems
to me, you know, Bernardo just

350
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,240
says, Oh well, it's like ripples
on the on the water and it's a

351
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,120
dissociative something or other
that doesn't seem to help.

352
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,400
Maybe this helps, maybe it
doesn't, but that's kind of the

353
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:38,720
way I'm going.
So that then ultimately could

354
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:44,040
explain how we come to be able
to explain the way that brains

355
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,400
can build models live.
We live these models, which are

356
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,480
descriptions of what appears to
be an external world that we

357
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,600
live in.
At at what point evolutionary do

358
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,000
you think these modelling
processes within the span

359
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,640
psychist view?
First of all, I think it's where

360
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,080
I think I should mention I never
thought I would.

361
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,000
I would reach a point in my life
where I would see Susan

362
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,280
Blackmore telling me she's a
pants like stuff with.

363
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,080
Yeah, yeah.
Well, if I live long enough, I

364
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,080
expect there'll be some more
surprises.

365
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,520
You were probably one of those
people who kept thinking I was a

366
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,680
materialist, however much I told
people I wasn't.

367
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,680
Because you know, and you can
see why, because I'm saying, oh,

368
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,920
this is the way to understand
out of body experiences.

369
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:29,880
We've got to understand what's
going on in the brain.

370
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,560
And look, it's not, it's not a
spirit leaving the body.

371
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,680
It's actually a disruption of
the body schema and people.

372
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,200
There you are.
You see, you're just dismissing

373
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,200
them and you're a materialist
and you're a reductionist and

374
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,440
you say it's not true.
I'm going, of course it's true.

375
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,160
You have the experiences, but
they're not like that.

376
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,960
But they still think I'm a
materialist so good.

377
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,440
Well, I'm glad you've you've
seen me change a bit.

378
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:49,960
It's.
It's I think it's.

379
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:51,840
A good no, because I've stayed
the same in that respect.

380
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,120
But I mean you, you followed
along with this.

381
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:55,960
Thank you.
No, it's, it's been a

382
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,320
fascinating journey.
I'm I'm waiting for the day you

383
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,240
you write a book about God and
and its existence and that that

384
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,680
day is probably not going to
come to.

385
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,360
No, I think I'm not going to
write about God and its

386
00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:09,280
existence.
No, probably not.

387
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,520
I, I, I can tell that's never
going to happen.

388
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,760
But anyway, I think so there's a
few things you touched on.

389
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,320
You mentioned one thing that I
think we should really touch on

390
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,480
is since we last spoke, we lost
one of the greatest pioneers in

391
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,120
philosophy and, and that is
Daniel Dennett is a hero to me,

392
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,880
is a hero to you.
What are your thoughts on the

393
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,520
impact he's left on this field
and in society in general?

394
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:38,080
Very, very difficult.
I'll just add that for me it was

395
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:44,800
particularly poignant the day he
died. 19th of April was Charles

396
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,320
Darwin's day that he died.
And it was also much more

397
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:54,880
trivial the day that Emily and
my book, the 4th edition of

398
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,760
Consciousness and Introduction
was launched.

399
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:04,360
And we were on our way to Tucson
to, to, to the Tucson conference

400
00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:08,240
last year in April.
And we were, you know, got the

401
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,000
first copies of the book.
And we were driving in a hire

402
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,360
car from LA airport to, to
Tucson.

403
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,240
And we got the news from a
friend on our phones that he

404
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:24,600
died that day.
And so, but more serious, well,

405
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:32,640
more importantly to to think
about your question, I have very

406
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,720
complicated and mixed feelings
about it.

407
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,440
He was a great friend, a huge
supporter in many ways.

408
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,000
He really helped me with in the
beginning with the me machine.

409
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,480
I never would have written the
me machine if he hadn't

410
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,920
encouraged me right from the
start, which was great.

411
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,320
I don't think he, he liked my
thoughts on consciousness too

412
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,040
much.
But but never mind.

413
00:23:55,360 --> 00:24:00,040
I think the greatest gift that
he gave to the field and most

414
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,160
people were not listening and
they couldn't understand it was

415
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,720
to point out all the pitfalls,
to point out again and again and

416
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,400
again where we go wrong.
I mean, I, I have not reread

417
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,440
Consciousness Explained in a
long time, but I remember I read

418
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,400
it first.
Absolutely when it first came

419
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:20,800
out.
I went to a lecture of his and

420
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,280
that inspired me to do the first
ever experiment on change

421
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,080
blindness because I was so
amazed in this lecture and and

422
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,640
in the book, I reread it on a
holiday some years later.

423
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:36,960
We went on a nice sunny holiday
in Greece with a pool and I did

424
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,640
nothing on that holiday apart
from meals and walks and things,

425
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,200
but read that book and it took
me the entire week's holiday to

426
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,120
reread that book.
And again I was stunned by it

427
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:49,280
because the things that I had
forgotten and things that I

428
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,200
hadn't properly understood.
I'm saying this because I

429
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,480
understand why people don't
didn't understand.

430
00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:01,920
Now that was his greatest gift,
multiple draft theory.

431
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,480
It's really hard to get and I
have mixed feelings about that,

432
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:13,400
which is very interesting.
What I think I mean, there's no

433
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,600
question that he he made a
massive contribution to the

434
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,800
field of consciousness.
He was part of the process of

435
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,200
launching the fact that there is
a field of consciousness studies

436
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,080
at all that.
And then three years after that,

437
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,200
Chalmers comes along and finds
the term the hard problem.

438
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:29,960
And you know, it was really all
starting there.

439
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:36,160
And he went on, Dan went on all
the time pushing this, doubt

440
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,360
this, doubt this, what about
this, think this through all the

441
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:41,880
time.
But the disservice I think he

442
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:48,040
did was to the discussions about
free will because he would not

443
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,160
say that free will is an
illusion.

444
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:56,320
And the reasons why he wouldn't
say it, I've never really

445
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,280
understood.
I've argued with him so much

446
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,280
about that.
And one of the things I really

447
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,680
regret from a purely selfish
point of view is why couldn't I

448
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,760
have done a podcast discussion
with Dan ever before he died?

449
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,960
Because these kind of things
were only just beginning to

450
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,160
happen and and I didn't.
There are a couple of things

451
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,680
online of me talking with him,
but but not much.

452
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:24,360
But in various places he says,
well, first of all, there's no

453
00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:26,760
audience in the car.
In the car, he's in theatre.

454
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:29,720
And it's that audience that
would have free will, isn't it?

455
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,600
I mean, you know, and if there
isn't anyone there, and if

456
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,320
that's an illusion, if that's a
benign user illusion, I don't

457
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,240
think it's benign.
But anyway, if it's a benign

458
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,120
user illusion and it thinks it's
got free will, then free will is

459
00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:45,040
part of the benign user
illusion, isn't it, Dan?

460
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,840
And he actually says in various
places that free will is just

461
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,840
not what you think it is.
But what's the definition of, I

462
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,880
see I'm getting crossed now.
Like, Dan, what is the official

463
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,880
dictionary definition of an
illusion is something that it's

464
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,800
not what it seems to be.
So if he's actually saying that

465
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,800
free will is not what it seems
to be, Dan, it's an illusion.

466
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:16,400
So that I think was a disservice
because his whole thrust of his

467
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,040
philosophical life on
consciousness was to show people

468
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:25,480
where they're going wrong, where
the natural, biologically based,

469
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,960
natural ideas we have, which are
duellist and, you know,

470
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,600
self-centered and so on are
wrong, getting people out of

471
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,120
that.
And then he allows them to go on

472
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:38,440
believing that there's, there's
this magical process.

473
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,920
And he even says, oh, it's not
magic, but he kind of encourages

474
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,040
them to go on thinking that
it's, you know, to being

475
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,480
compatible.
It's that it's compatible with,

476
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,760
well, with science basically,
And it isn't, in my opinion.

477
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,320
It isn't in my opinion, he was
wrong.

478
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:03,920
So that leaves me sad about Dan.
He told me in as many words, I

479
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,520
hope before I die I will
persuade you that you're wrong

480
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,880
about free will.
And I hoped that before, I mean,

481
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,480
I knew I wouldn't, but I kind of
had the reciprocal hope that I

482
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,200
could possibly persuade him to
start saying it's an illusion.

483
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,680
But we both failed, and then he
died.

484
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,840
No, I, I completely agree.
When you mentioned you wish you

485
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:24,960
had a podcast with him, there
was also, he was one of those

486
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:26,920
people I had on the like the top
of the list.

487
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,680
Um, when I read, when I started
this podcast, yeah, I really

488
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,960
wanted to chat to him and we
sent a couple of emails back and

489
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,040
forth and he said one day it
will happen.

490
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:35,760
And then we obviously never got
that chance.

491
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,560
So it also really disappoints me
that I never got to pick his

492
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,840
brain and discuss it.
And I mentioned, I mean, in my

493
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,840
dissertation, you guys, both of
you and Keith and a lot of

494
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,880
people were quoted many times.
I think Dan was one of the most

495
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,480
quoted at the time when I was
writing that.

496
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,160
I really wish I got a chance to
speak to him.

497
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,760
But I agree.
I think that when when he spoke

498
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,240
about free will, it fought more
of a social theory for him.

499
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,880
It felt more close, too close to
heart.

500
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,200
Where it was difficult for him
to become the philosopher he

501
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,520
really is with that topic for
some reason.

502
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,520
Is that what you felt?
Do you feel like he held it to a

503
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,440
social subject rather than a
philosophical conversation?

504
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,960
Yes, you put that really well.
I think that's right.

505
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:16,920
Why the Why?
Did he find that?

506
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,320
I've, I've always thought that
when I read it, I felt like it's

507
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,520
very strange that he's not
applying his intuition pumps to

508
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,200
this concept because that was
because that was what he was

509
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,200
known for.
But yeah, he's a true hero.

510
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,120
This reminds me of because I
told you, I've just been on this

511
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,440
retreat.
It was a, it was a 10 day Jana's

512
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,080
retreat.
That's a training in getting

513
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,080
into these different altered
states of consciousness that you

514
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:41,720
can get into through
concentration.

515
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,800
It's very, very interesting.
There were there were lots of

516
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:49,640
discussions in the discussion
time about the Buddha very

517
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:54,160
clearly says in many ways in
different places in the suitors,

518
00:29:54,160 --> 00:30:00,320
the early suitors that there is
no reincarnation, There isn't

519
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,320
anybody to be reincarnated.
There isn't any life after

520
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,520
death.
All the stuff about, you know,

521
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,400
will you be born in a reborn in
a better life and so on is

522
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,680
clearly not true in, in very
clearly stated in many of the

523
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,760
things that he says.
And there's a lot of evidence

524
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,960
that not only do people like to
believe that, obviously, but the

525
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,720
cultures into which Buddhism
went very often had these

526
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,280
beliefs in, in reincarnation and
so on.

527
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,520
So it's not surprising that it
all get mixed up and lots of

528
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,640
people think that Buddhists have
to believe in reincarnation,

529
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,320
which they don't have to.
Well, at least I know some who

530
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:36,560
aren't.
I'm not a Buddhist myself.

531
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,480
Them I certainly don't.
But but there are also actual

532
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,320
Buddhists who, who, who, who
don't.

533
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,840
And in this, in discussions in
the retreat, I asked and

534
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,000
somebody else was asking the
sort of question, Well, why is

535
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,960
it that in some of the tutors
and, and some of the latest

536
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:59,680
sutras, he is, is talking to a
whole mass of people and people

537
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,040
ask him, well, is this person
going to be in their next life

538
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,280
in a better, you know, better
reincarnation?

539
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,240
And he answered those questions.
Well, why did he answer those

540
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,080
questions if he clearly doesn't
believe it's true?

541
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,840
And then the answers or possible
answers that were discussed

542
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,840
were, well, he was just using
skilful means because those

543
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,040
people he was talking to was so
deeply embedded in that culture.

544
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,120
If he just said, oh, that's
rubbish, you know, he'd they'd

545
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,160
have wandered off and wouldn't
have stayed there.

546
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,920
Whereas in more sophisticated
when he's talking 1 to one or

547
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,920
small groups of his followers
and who who could accept it?

548
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,040
He was, he was actually saying
the truth as he saw it, that

549
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,160
there's just this and there
isn't a continuation of somebody

550
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,000
who's experiencing this.
So I don't know if that's a very

551
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,600
good analogy, but from what
you've described of what you

552
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,240
think about Dan, it's kind of
the same thing more than 2000

553
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,200
years later.
So perhaps we ought to be more

554
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:00,760
forgiving.
I ought to be more forgiving of

555
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,200
Dan.
Look, I think it's, I think a

556
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,720
lot of people find we'll have
some sort of a situation where

557
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,200
this occurs.
It's almost like a politician

558
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,680
trying to discuss certain top
conversations with with masses

559
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,920
and then going back to their
cabinet and discussing the same

560
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,440
topic.
It's kind of like you put on a

561
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,800
certain show with certain people
and then you go back to your

562
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,080
actual views when you when you
discuss it with colleagues or

563
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,720
friends.
Maybe, but but I think it's a

564
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,760
it's yours is a better analogy
to that.

565
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:26,920
But anyway, let's go back to
Keith that.

566
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,680
Raises the whole question of
truth and what is truth And, you

567
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,640
know, probably a lot of us think
I always want to tell the truth

568
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,880
and all I want is to find the
truth and then you sort of start

569
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,080
finding out you're not entirely
sure what you mean by the truth

570
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,480
and.
Yeah, and most people, most

571
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,600
people don't even realise how
much they lie to themselves.

572
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,240
So that's the that's that's the
first thing they need to 1st

573
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,200
figure out is am I telling
myself the truth?

574
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,200
Yes.
And when you spoke?

575
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,360
About entire life doing that.
When you exactly when you spoke

576
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,760
to Keith yesterday, what's his
thoughts on these views on this

577
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:01,560
change of?
Your Oh, well, I don't yet know.

578
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,400
He wrote me the most wonderful
e-mail.

579
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:09,600
We arranged to to do a podcast
discussion and he wrote me a

580
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:16,760
most wonderful e-mail.
He actually has has read or

581
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,240
reread almost all of my books in
preparation for this.

582
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,960
And I'm like, you know, how can
somebody, you know, that was

583
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,040
just sort of amazing.
And, and, and he was saying, you

584
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,760
know, how excited he got about
some of my ideas about the

585
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,440
prescience, as he sees it, of
the me machine, which is now 25

586
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,640
years old.
That encourages me to do a

587
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,840
second edition or do something
because well, anyway, never

588
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,720
mind.
And, and other things that he

589
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,520
was commenting on.
And he laid out sort of three

590
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,200
sections of what we'd like to
talk about.

591
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,200
One was out of body experiences
and all that stuff.

592
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,240
Another one was memes and
another one was consciousness.

593
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,240
Well, we did more than an hour
and you know, I get very tired

594
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,200
and an hour is as much and him
as well.

595
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,080
He, he has a problem with
fatigue as well.

596
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,120
So after an hour and a quarter,
we stopped and we'd only done

597
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,600
the first section.
So I have not discussed and

598
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,040
we've agreed we're going to do 2
more and, and, and do the

599
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,639
others.
Meanwhile, I sent him my I've

600
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,719
written sort of 3/4 of a paper
that I want to submit for

601
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,960
publication about these ideas,
which is the first thing that

602
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,520
I've written down about them.
I've talked in a couple of

603
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:31,920
context, small context to
audiences, but and to Peter

604
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,840
Shosted Hughes and his little
group in Exeter.

605
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,800
They were really helpful, you
know, with criticisms, but they

606
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,199
seem to kind of take it worth
thinking about anyway.

607
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,400
So I began writing this paper
and then and it wasn't finished

608
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,719
when I was going on the retreat,
but he wanted to read it so I

609
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,600
sent it to him.
And when I got back and I

610
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,000
haven't been able to look at his
comments.

611
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:57,200
He's written comments all, I
mean, you look the side box, you

612
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,040
know, within word.
And it's like, but he said he's

613
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,800
really excited by the ideas.
And so I can't answer.

614
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,840
Knowing Keith a bit, I think
he'll have some very useful

615
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,240
criticisms and clearly he's not,
he's not dismissing.

616
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,520
That's the nice thing to me.
He's not dismissing it and

617
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,600
saying this is rubbish.
He is interested enough, thinks

618
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:20,480
thinks it's worth having a go
at, but I can't answer yet.

619
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,640
But I will be able to answer
when we get around to this

620
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,480
conversation.
I agree with you Keith.

621
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,400
Keith is so wonderful that when
I, this was about 20/20/21 when

622
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,640
I had emailed him, I think maybe
2019, I can't remember, but when

623
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,760
I was doing my dissertation, I'd
sent him an e-mail saying, Hey,

624
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,680
would you mind having a look at
this and just letting me know

625
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,400
what you think.
And exactly the same thing

626
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,120
happened.
He replied a few a week or so

627
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,040
later with, with a whole bunch
of comments along the side.

628
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,080
And I, and at the end I actually
wrote with special thanks to to

629
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,480
Nicholas Humphrey, Keith
Frankish, Michael Graziano,

630
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,040
because these people actually
assisted me to write this at the

631
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,640
time.
And it was really, really

632
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,880
thoughtful because he gave me
the probably the most notes and,

633
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,800
and you just, you were talking
about stamina and just staying

634
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,360
for a long podcast.
The last time when you and I

635
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,600
spoke afterwards, Keith and I
had a, a Sunday discussion and

636
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,640
we had a podcast day and he had
spoken about escaping Descartes

637
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,880
prison.
And we, we had a whole 3 hour

638
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,240
podcast.
And thereafter Keith and I

639
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:20,600
decided, let's have another
lecture where because he's now

640
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,120
growing and he's reactivity
schema theory.

641
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:24,920
I'm not sure.
Have you guys discussed that

642
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,200
yet?
No, OK, no, I'd love to.

643
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:28,480
I'll let you guys chat about
that.

644
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,920
But then we had another three
hour lecture series.

645
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,960
So we spent an entire Sunday,
literally almost around six to

646
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,640
seven hours just on a full
podcast mode.

647
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,960
It was exhausting, but one of
the best Sundays you can have.

648
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,640
Actually, even though he says
that he finds it exhausting, he

649
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,480
does he.
Does he pushed through it was

650
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,920
amazing.
So the lectures I mean I've got

651
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:48,160
it both online.
I'll send you links.

652
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,400
It's really interesting the way
he sort of fine tuning the

653
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,120
illusionist argument with a
reactivity schema theory, so

654
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,280
maybe ask him about that when
you chat to him.

655
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,960
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I will.
But that says something about

656
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,280
your thesis that those people, I
mean, I would guess they're all

657
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:10,240
the same as me, some younger.
I mean, Michael's much younger

658
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:14,560
and probably has a lot more
energy there for but, you know,

659
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,680
get sent so many things like
this.

660
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,440
And if you think for God's sake,
you person I've never heard of

661
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,160
have written a thesis.
Are you really expecting they?

662
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,800
Don't you understand how much
I've got to do that sort of, you

663
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,840
know, very natural reaction.
But then I will think it's part

664
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,400
of your job, you know, not a
job, but you know, the life is

665
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,920
at least have a look.
And so often you can look and

666
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,040
there's an abstract and it's
absolutely clear that either

667
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,680
it's beyond my I don't have a,
you know, I'm not competent, or

668
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,160
it's complete garbage.
And few I can just write back

669
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,480
and say, well, good luck with
your thesis.

670
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,920
But I'm sorry, you know, and
there will be a rare one where

671
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,120
actually it's tempting enough to
think, yeah, I can learn

672
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,720
something from this and I can
help this person and and so on.

673
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,920
So that's brilliant that they
were able to help you.

674
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,760
But Keith is exceptional in how
much effort he.

675
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:04,520
No, I agree.
He's he's wonderful.

676
00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:08,520
So you mentioned that you, you
won this retreat exploring

677
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,720
altered states of consciousness
because Peter and I just spoke

678
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:13,160
the other day and and that's
when he said he's actually going

679
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,920
to call you to come visit.
But we were discussing how he's

680
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,680
from his data, it says that most
people who have altered states

681
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,600
of consciousness, maybe if they
go on DMT, whether it's

682
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,680
psilocybin doesn't matter.
They seem to go into a more pan

683
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,360
psychist view.
But I said, and I would think

684
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,960
that people more would go more
into an idealist framework, but

685
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,400
it seems that the data heads
towards a pan psychist view.

686
00:38:37,720 --> 00:38:40,160
Do you think exploring altered
states of consciousness over

687
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:41,800
time?
I mean, I've had altered states

688
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,280
of consciousness just to make it
clear that it's, I'm not judging

689
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,120
it in any way.
But do you think exploring

690
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,520
altered states of consciousness
would open someone's mind to a

691
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:55,480
more pan psychist view?
I wish that were true.

692
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,320
As far as I know from the
evidence from psychedelics,

693
00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:08,400
people become more dualist after
classical psychedelics like LSD

694
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,840
and psilocybin.
And I was really rather

695
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,720
depressed to read that this was
some evidence that came out, I

696
00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:14,880
don't know, four or five years
ago.

697
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,720
And I was quite depressed by
that because I know people and I

698
00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:23,120
know myself being more likely to
become modest rather than

699
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,560
duelist.
And so Pancycho.

700
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,920
I mean, it's a kind of monism in
in a way.

701
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,960
And, and so I can see that.
And that's much more hopeful to

702
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:32,400
me that people would come that
way.

703
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:38,880
I think it's actually, I think
the philosophical lines that we

704
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,200
draw may not be the appropriate
ones for talking about this.

705
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,080
After all, the philosophical
concepts that we have have come

706
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,680
from 2000 or more years, and
they may not be the best way of

707
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,120
dividing up how the mind works.
So although I think it's really

708
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,720
useful and I'm really thrilled
that this work on psychedelics

709
00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:00,200
is actually happening now.
God, how awful that the war on

710
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,720
drugs prevented it for so long.
But anyway, at least it's

711
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:08,600
happening now that we need other
ways of thinking about this.

712
00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:12,920
I mean so many people with LSD
for example.

713
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:19,280
Will become animists, which is
sort of heading kind of

714
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,240
panpsychism, I suppose, because
you have this feeling when you

715
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:24,280
look out.
I mean, I'm looking at a sort

716
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,960
of, it's kind of a palm tree.
This is a little bit of the edge

717
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,560
of southwest England where palm
trees can survive.

718
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,280
And I'm looking at this waving
and this stormy wind we've got.

719
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:41,520
Now, if I were on acid tripping,
I'm pretty sure I would feel the

720
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,920
life force within that thing.
I'm looking at, you know, it's

721
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,800
alive and you know, and I would
feel there is something it's

722
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,040
like to be it.
And I would feel that I'm part

723
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:51,600
of it.
And we're all 1.

724
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,360
And that's very common.
And I'm used to that.

725
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,080
I know what that feels like.
Now, how does that fit within

726
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,400
philosophy?
I don't think it's, it's

727
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,240
terribly helpful to well, maybe
it is, but I don't think it

728
00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:07,720
neatly fits into one
philosophical view rather than

729
00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:09,680
another.
I think we've got a lot of

730
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,640
exploring to do.
Yeah, I think there's also

731
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,680
certain linguistic limitations
that we might have, and it

732
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,760
becomes very difficult to
explain these ineffable

733
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,120
experiences.
Well, that's, that's a, that's

734
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:24,040
a, an aspect of what I'm saying
really, that we use words.

735
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,560
If we're being philosophers,
we're using philosophical words.

736
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,320
But if we're not philosophers,
then we're still using words in

737
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,720
our, in our language that makes
sense to us.

738
00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:39,240
And they've evolved over time, a
lot of them not in the context

739
00:41:39,240 --> 00:41:42,920
of thinking about older states,
but Peter and I have talked

740
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:44,680
about these kinds of things a
lot.

741
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,040
But the older states I was
talking about in this retreat

742
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:53,440
last week are not like, and
there's something in common, but

743
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,200
they're not like psychedelic
states.

744
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,560
They're much more concentrated,
much less.

745
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:05,400
You know, I wouldn't be looking
at that palm tree and feeling in

746
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,840
that way.
In fact, I'd have my eyes shut

747
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,200
and be deep, deep, deep in
concentration and kind of going

748
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:15,960
down and down into a kind of
depths of simplifying the mind.

749
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:17,800
I've, I've, I've never been to a
retreat.

750
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,280
What, what did those experiences
do for you in terms of your own

751
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,400
clarity of thought, generating
new ideas, and just experiencing

752
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:32,280
and being being in general?
Depends on the type of retreat.

753
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,000
Most.
I mean, the first retreat I ever

754
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,000
went on was in 1981.
That was called a Western Zen

755
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:43,520
retreat led by John Crook, who
was my he's he was he's dead

756
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,000
now.
A Zen master also trained in

757
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,280
other traditions than as
actually Chan, the Chinese pre

758
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:58,240
predecessor to Zen and their
those retreats and I went on

759
00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:02,800
many, many others in that same
tradition are based on open,

760
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,720
open awareness meditation.
It's all about training

761
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:07,720
attention.
In the end.

762
00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:10,880
All of this is training
attention in different ways.

763
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,320
So Zen Zazen just sitting second
Taza.

764
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:22,160
It's all applying equal
attention to everything without

765
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,720
judgement.
It's one way of putting it may

766
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:29,120
not be ideal, but anyway, so
really training attention to do

767
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,520
that is a lifetime's work.
It's hard, but you know, you get

768
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,360
better at it.
Now how does that answer your

769
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,480
question?
That kind of meditation, it

770
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:45,080
changes your relationship to the
world and in odd ways that must

771
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:51,560
be explicable, I suppose.
But it, it encourages compassion

772
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,040
and openness and facing up to
your fears.

773
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,440
I mean, actually, I suppose it's
very simple one, here's a very

774
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,320
simple aspect.
If you have to sit there hour

775
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,040
after hour after hour gazing at
you, don't you have your eyes

776
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:05,480
open for that kind of
meditation?

777
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,760
And you're looking typically at
a white wall, but even the, the

778
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,200
smoothest white wall will have
you know, but often you're

779
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,880
looking at a carpet or some
piece of wood on the floor, you

780
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,360
know, and it, and it's, and then
it's all the worries that you've

781
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,680
got and all the miseries and all
the anger.

782
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,840
And for me, it's anger is is it
is usually the problem that it

783
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,520
can be regret.
And you know, you have to face

784
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:30,880
yourself and doing that leads to
to big changes.

785
00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:35,760
Philosophically, it's much
harder to say.

786
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,880
And you know, if you're a
Buddhist, you're going to get

787
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,760
tied up in, in Buddhist
philosophy and all sorts of

788
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:41,720
stuff.
But I'm not.

789
00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:46,320
And I didn't now changing over
to the kind of retreat that I'm

790
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,280
talking about now.
I mean, I still do send retreats

791
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,440
or charm retreats.
I'm going to be doing one in

792
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,680
June, which is using a Co on is
weird kind of questions that you

793
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:58,840
struggle with.
So it's not just who am I

794
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,200
staring at this wall, but some
other thing you've got to do.

795
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,960
But these Jana's ones are very
different.

796
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:11,680
So in the early suitors, the
Buddha says practice vaginas and

797
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:17,000
they are a series of eight
increasingly deep states

798
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,960
achieved through through
concentration.

799
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,720
So open awareness is not really
concentration, it's open

800
00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:25,080
attention.
You know, but this is like

801
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,520
narrow the attention down and
you get into these different

802
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,800
states.
So what they tell us, I think is

803
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,360
very different.
You could.

804
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:39,280
I don't know how much you want
to know about this and I've

805
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,520
forgotten what your question was
and I've just started rambling

806
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,120
so I'll shut up and see what you
want to know.

807
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,160
So now I was just, I was just
curious to know if it, if it

808
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,880
does actually impact your
philosophical framework in any

809
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:52,120
way.
Post yes.

810
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,960
Experience yes.
Absolutely it does.

811
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,920
OK, so cutting all the
complications of, you know, so

812
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,000
I, I can't do all of these at
all.

813
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:05,960
I think I can do some but but
the last task that we were given

814
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,920
on the last day was to go out
for a walk.

815
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,440
And this, this comes from a
particular story of what

816
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,720
happened to one of somebody that
Buddha met and so on, who had a

817
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:21,080
wrong view of some kind.
And the Buddha said to this guy,

818
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:30,800
so this man was asking in his
tradition had been seeking the,

819
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,920
the, The Who is it who sees and
who is it who hears and all of

820
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,960
this.
And the Buddha says to him in

821
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:42,960
seeing there is only seeing, in
hearing, there is only hearing,

822
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,560
in touching is only touch, and
it's on.

823
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,040
And these stories always ramble
on incredibly repetitively and

824
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,400
tediously.
But anyway, so we were sent out

825
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,640
and by this time, after this is
the 10th day of meditating many,

826
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,400
many hours a day, we're sent out
to go for a walk.

827
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:07,280
And one suggestion is, is
walking out of time.

828
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:09,320
So that's another thing that we
discussed that's slightly

829
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:15,320
different part of it, but let it
be seeing is, is just seeing and

830
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,920
hearing is just hearing.
Now it happened to be a really

831
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,880
stormy day.
There were the trees thrashing

832
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,800
around and the not a building
going on all these plastic

833
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,280
things.
And that plastic was kind of

834
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,040
crashing.
And the sound was, and then as I

835
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,400
got down towards the beach,
these big crashing waves and the

836
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,360
sights of all this and
practising this.

837
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:42,480
And what of course it's getting
at is there isn't anybody

838
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,200
seeing.
There's just seeing.

839
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:50,600
And in this way, you look at
this and then this and they're

840
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:54,960
not tied together as an order in
time, the seeing and the

841
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:56,160
hearing.
And there's this.

842
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,600
And so it's demolishing.
It's yet another way of

843
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,520
demolishing the false view that
I'm in here looking out through

844
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,360
my eyes and seeing an external
world.

845
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:11,880
So that, yes, that and, and I
would say I'm glad you asked

846
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:16,960
because that's a good example of
why I keep going, why I keep,

847
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:19,960
because it's bloody hard work.
I mean, a lot of that retreat, I

848
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,160
was like, oh God, why did I ever
sign up to this?

849
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,880
And you know, oh, I've got to do
another hour and I can't bear

850
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,600
it, you know, but in the end,
it's amazing.

851
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,080
It's amazing to actually
experience that.

852
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:38,240
And that fits with with
philosophical changes in in in

853
00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:40,520
your life.
Yeah, that's I agree.

854
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:44,040
I think that it is it is strange
that the research says people

855
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,600
become more dualistic because
the the association is often non

856
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:49,920
duality with these types of
experience.

857
00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:52,560
So yeah, fascinating.
I wonder what I'm gonna look

858
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,000
into that research to make sure.
But before, so before we go back

859
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,400
into that, you, you mentioned
that when you had dinner, when

860
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,600
dinner had passed away, you were
driving on your way to Tucson.

861
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,160
And I, I spoke to Stuart Amarov
about two weeks ago, maybe

862
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,640
three.
This year's one is in Barcelona.

863
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:12,800
And this time he's focusing the
conference solely solely on the

864
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,160
quantum and classical reality
and meeting in between.

865
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,560
And this theme for this year
seems to be directly linked to

866
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,760
this view of consciousness,
which seems to link more with

867
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:22,800
idealist views.
But he's also got a lot of

868
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,560
neuroscientific theorists coming
through.

869
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,160
What are your thoughts on this
this approach for the conference

870
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,400
this year?
Total crap.

871
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:39,360
I was expecting that.
I, I looked at the programme for

872
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,200
Barcelona and I thought, and
there's a, there's a very,

873
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:47,000
there's a few really good people
going, but oh, what are they

874
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,360
doing?
You know, Stuart and I have had

875
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:57,000
troubles together and you know,
I know Stuart pretty well and

876
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,440
there's online, there's the time
when I was supposed to be having

877
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:07,520
a conversation on stage with
Deepak Chopra and Stuart

878
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,880
actually interrupted while we
were given a few minutes

879
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,560
introduction to do and he, he
was in the, he was the

880
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,280
chairperson, right.
And he interrupted my little

881
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,800
introduction because I mentioned
that, you know, I've been

882
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:22,160
inspired to do that by having
this out of body experience to

883
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,200
investigate.
And I said it's wonderful in my

884
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,080
life that we now can understand,
you know, how they happen.

885
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,000
Come on then, give some proof.
Then he said he's the chairman,

886
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,120
you know.
So then, then Deepak gets at me

887
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:33,480
and the whole thing just
descended.

888
00:50:33,720 --> 00:50:36,400
It's all online, descended into
ridiculousness.

889
00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:40,440
And then his wife, his fifth
wife, I think he's now on the

890
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,480
6th.
But anyway, his fifth wife, I

891
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,880
didn't realize who it was at the
time, but the, the crowd was

892
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,680
sort of shouting, let her speak
and stuff.

893
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,440
After half an hour of this going
on and she, somebody came up,

894
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:55,320
but I was told later that that
was his wife and said that

895
00:50:55,320 --> 00:51:00,600
Stuart let her speak, you know.
So subsequently he apologised

896
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:02,840
and I accept his apology and
that's fine.

897
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,880
Deepak and I, I, I just decided
I'm, I'm not having any more of

898
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:10,920
this crap with Deepak.
I'm going to, I'm going to let's

899
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,960
because every time I've, I've
had dinner with Deepak on on, on

900
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,880
my own the night before that and
we get on so well and we talk

901
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:18,960
about, you know, all sorts of
interesting stuff.

902
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:20,960
And I thought we need to do that
online.

903
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:26,000
And I asked him if we could.
And to his credit, he did.

904
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,720
He agreed.
And we then did a good podcast

905
00:51:28,720 --> 00:51:32,120
and he wants to do another one.
I was going to say later this

906
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,200
month, but I anyway, very soon
he wants to do another one.

907
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,720
And we have proved now that we
can have those nice

908
00:51:38,720 --> 00:51:41,320
conversations.
So sorry.

909
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,640
Going back, going back to
Stuart, Stuart is very forceful.

910
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:49,720
He is utterly, utterly convinced
by his own quantum theory, which

911
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:52,120
is different from the original
one that he started out with.

912
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:58,080
He will get Roger Penrose online
every possible opportunity.

913
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:05,400
He started out with Penrose
with, with, with one version of

914
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:10,280
his quantum theory that the
collapse of the wave function in

915
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,800
in the microtubules and has gone
on to a different version.

916
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,160
It still depends on
microtubules.

917
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:18,080
But he keeps thinking, saying
there's kind of evidence that

918
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:20,920
puts supports his theory, which
is bits of evidence to do with

919
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,040
the possibility of quantum
computing or some kind of

920
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,400
quantum effects relevant to
cognition in the brain.

921
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,760
And, you know, he's absolutely
sure he's right, which is not a

922
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,760
good stand for a scientist.
You know, you need this balance.

923
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,600
You need to be really, I think
I'm right and oh, isn't this

924
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:42,680
exciting if I am right?
And how am I going to prove

925
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,600
myself wrong in case I am wrong?
And you know, what would happen

926
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,640
if I'm, you know, and, and is,
is just absolutely convinced

927
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:50,600
he's right?
Now, here's the point.

928
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,920
Let us suppose that there were
quantum computing in

929
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:57,760
microtubules.
It's possible.

930
00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:59,720
It seems unlikely to me.
And there's all the problem with

931
00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:01,600
the temperature.
And, you know, let's suppose

932
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,000
there were or let's suppose that
in some other way the brain is a

933
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,760
quantum computer.
How does that help solve the

934
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,400
problem?
Doesn't solve the hard problem.

935
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:15,520
I mean, why should consciousness
suddenly arise from quantum

936
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,520
computing in a way that we think
but haven't discovered that it

937
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:23,480
arises from ordinary computing?
There's no, there's nothing in

938
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:27,560
his theory that addresses the
problem of consciousness at all,

939
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,280
as far as I'm concerned.
That's why I feel it's

940
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,800
legitimate, as I wouldn't very
often to just say a rude word.

941
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:39,800
I mean, it's sad to me that it's
so popular because it sounds

942
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:41,640
great, doesn't it, quantum
stuff.

943
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,200
And it must be very clever if
you, of course, I can't

944
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:47,120
understand quantum mechanics.
I don't have the maths.

945
00:53:48,720 --> 00:53:51,320
And, you know, people are
thinking, wow, you know, it must

946
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,400
be very clever.
And I don't think Stuart

947
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,000
understands quantum mechanics
either.

948
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,240
He's not a mathematician, he's
not a physicist.

949
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,640
And yet it's hugely popular.
And now the whole of the

950
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:06,240
conference in Barcelona is going
to be devoted to that.

951
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,680
Well, I hope they have a lovely
time Despite that, but I don't

952
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:13,040
think it's going to go anywhere
helpful for us in understanding

953
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,320
the nature of mind.
Yeah, I think The funny thing is

954
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:19,760
that the ACC, what is the other
conference called the AS?

955
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,840
ASSC, The association for the
scientific study of

956
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:24,520
consciousness.
That's on the same week.

957
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:26,840
So he was really pissed about
that.

958
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,280
He was really serious, Yes,
Yeah.

959
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:30,560
So that's increased.
That's it.

960
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:32,680
That's in Crete, Yeah.
In Greece, yeah.

961
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:34,240
So that's where Keith is
actually.

962
00:54:34,240 --> 00:54:36,720
It would be a good opportunity
to visit Keith as well.

963
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,520
But the The funny thing was
today I was on Twitter and I

964
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:42,440
don't think you have Twitter
right, Sue?

965
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:46,440
No, luckily, because if you see
the wars that go down with with

966
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:49,400
Stuart, I think it was a Neil
and a Neil set and Stuart having

967
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,720
a back and forth this morning
and and it was pretty crazy.

968
00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:56,560
Yeah, it's it's not the most
polite conversation to tell.

969
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,400
Me about it because I, I mean,
I'm not even going to see it

970
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,400
probably so.
Let me see if I can.

971
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,200
Give me the gist.
Yeah, I.

972
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:06,000
Do let's, I'll find it right now
because Stuart's quite active on

973
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:07,920
Twitter and I even told him it's
like watching a show.

974
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,560
But I so, Oh yes, one thing as I
find this one thing Stuart did

975
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:18,080
say, which to his credit is that
Chalmers said that if Stuart

976
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:21,240
perhaps is not around anymore
and then the theory comes out to

977
00:55:21,240 --> 00:55:24,400
be true, then people might be OK
with it because Stuart said that

978
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:26,800
Chalmers said they just don't
like the idea of letting you

979
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,480
have the have the fun of it
being correct.

980
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,400
So he did admit to that and he
does, he does know he did.

981
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:37,200
He comes across this way.
So in his defence, so I think

982
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:43,560
here it is so, so it says wait
one second almost.

983
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:46,840
There we go.
Anil Seth, David Chalmers and

984
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:51,080
Neil deGrasse Tyson makes the
same ignorant mistake arguing

985
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,520
for conscious AI, saying
silicone is no different than

986
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:55,560
carbon.
Even if that were true life

987
00:55:55,560 --> 00:56:00,560
consciousness and are based on
organic carbon in aromatic ring

988
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,520
structures within intrinsic
quantum optical properties.

989
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,840
These guys are experts.
Question mark, question mark,

990
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:07,680
exclamation mark, exclamation
mark.

991
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,000
And he tags them.
So that's The funny thing.

992
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:13,000
He tags all three of them into
this, and then they start having

993
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,080
a conversation that Neil's like
Stewart, you're entitled to your

994
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:19,440
own opinions, but not to
consistently misrepresent mine.

995
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:23,040
I make it really that I'm
sceptical of silicon based

996
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:26,040
conscious AI, making the case
different from your case that

997
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,160
consciousness is a biological
property.

998
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:31,080
And then it just keeps going
back and forth, back and forth.

999
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:33,400
But yeah, these are the
conversations you're missing out

1000
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:36,400
on.
I wonder whether Anil thinks

1001
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:41,080
that it's a good use of his time
to do this.

1002
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:43,640
I mean, I'm just wondering, you
know, I've, I've just resisted

1003
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:47,240
getting involved with, with,
with X and all that.

1004
00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:49,680
But I think I'm, I think I'm too
old.

1005
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:52,520
I'm not going to.
But it's very interesting to

1006
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,840
hear a snippet of, of what's
going on there and all.

1007
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:57,880
It's great.
I mean, I really like his work.

1008
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:02,560
I really loved his book.
Obviously we disagree a lot,

1009
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:04,800
quite a lot.
And he doesn't he don't think

1010
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:10,560
much of my of my new ideas that
we were talking about, but we

1011
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:12,840
also have a lot in common.
And I think he's his book has

1012
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,760
really been a good contribution
to people understanding

1013
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:18,000
predictive processing.
Yeah.

1014
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,040
And Sue, do you have any
upcoming in terms of books,

1015
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,160
papers, any work that you're
working on that you'd like to

1016
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,120
share with the audience?
So we seem to have gone off on a

1017
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,880
tangent.
We have and also.

1018
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:32,120
It's been an hour and we need to
stop, don't we?

1019
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:36,280
We can always have another go,
which will be fun because it's

1020
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:39,040
always fun talking to you.
No, not really.

1021
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,840
I mean, I was so utterly
exhausted by the book.

1022
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:45,560
You know, my daughter Emily and
I did the 4th edition of the

1023
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:49,280
Consciousness Textbook and it
was an exhausting job.

1024
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:53,280
Not because of the, the, the
work of actually doing the

1025
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,600
writing and the updating.
That was worthwhile and fun and

1026
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,680
interesting.
The bloody publishers made it.

1027
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:02,560
They, the copy editors were so
bad.

1028
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:06,240
They actually changed things
we'd written, added references

1029
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:08,280
in the wrong place.
Where they why?

1030
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,720
I mean, they just, you know,
really messed things up.

1031
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,000
And guess it's putting that all
right because we're meticulous

1032
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:16,360
people who want everything
right.

1033
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:18,880
And oh, it was a nightmare.
And honestly, I was like

1034
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:23,960
drained.
But I have, I've got lots of

1035
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:28,840
ideas for, for, for books and
then I don't actually decide

1036
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,880
what to start on.
So my job now is to write this

1037
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:35,520
article about the ideas that we
were talking about earlier,

1038
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:41,280
about the, about the models and
why they're the subject of

1039
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:43,960
consciousness, not objects.
And we'll see where that takes

1040
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:45,520
me.
I mean, I keep fantasising out a

1041
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:48,360
book about that, but I, I, you
know, I haven't actually started

1042
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:49,960
that.
And then I'm thinking about a

1043
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:52,160
second edition of the Me Machine
because people keep

1044
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:55,880
interestingly now this is weird.
So Keith Frankish was saying how

1045
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:59,520
much he enjoyed rereading the
Meme Machine because he'd read

1046
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:03,000
it a long time ago.
And that he said how prescient

1047
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:06,600
it was in terms of, of what's
happening with with AI and LLMS

1048
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:08,520
and all the other things going
on there.

1049
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:15,480
And that made me think, I talked
to OUP about who published it,

1050
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:17,840
about doing a second edition.
And then they never got on to

1051
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:22,720
actually submitting a proposal.
But then on this retreat, the

1052
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:29,280
guy, Lee Bracington leading the
retreat, the Jana's expert, he

1053
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:33,800
said somebody asked in in the
chat thing, you know, oh, can

1054
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:36,760
you give a list of your books?
You know, that we'd like to read

1055
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:39,080
them.
And I and I put that, put that

1056
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:40,640
and and he said, where's the
main machine?

1057
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,800
Where's the main machine?
Because to him, but the end of

1058
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,680
the meme machine where I talk
about how the self is

1059
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:49,960
constructed, false self, the
illusion of self is constructed

1060
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:52,960
by them for the memes benefit.
It's not for us, which is why I

1061
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:54,600
say it's not a benign user
illusion.

1062
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:58,160
It's actually a malign user
illusion because it's actually

1063
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:01,960
in the service of the memes.
It's making the brain work very

1064
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:04,640
hard to take in certain memes
that are all to do with me and

1065
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:07,840
selfishly and so on and so on.
And I guess that kind of.

1066
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:11,440
With the sort of Buddhist idea
so that, you know, like coming

1067
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,280
up at least that makes me think
I really ought to get on with

1068
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,840
them with, with doing the second
edition.

1069
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:20,440
And I'm sure that's a better use
of my time than going on

1070
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:22,760
Twitter.
I completely agree.

1071
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:25,720
And look, I've read that book
twice and it's been a while

1072
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:27,960
since I've read it.
Yeah, so and I actually look

1073
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:31,120
forward now that Keith has has
given it such high praise, I

1074
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:32,640
think it's time to give it a go
again.

1075
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,480
So thank you so much, Sue.
It's always a pleasure chatting

1076
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,360
to you.
And I'm, I'm looking forward to

1077
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:39,480
reading this this your new
papers about this.

1078
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:43,480
It sounds really fascinating.
OK, well I will send it to you

1079
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,520
if I actually manage when I
managed to do it.

1080
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:49,560
Well, great, it's been lovely
again talking to you.

1081
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,880
Thanks Suz, have a great one.
And till next time, good luck

1082
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,480
with Deepak.
Thank you very much.

1083
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:56,520
Bye.