Stuart Hameroff: Is Consciousness a Quantum Orchestra? Microtubules, Objective Reduction, & Orch OR

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I first talked about anesthesia,
a way to understand

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consciousness with Kristoff.
It was actually, I said we got

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to figure out how anesthesia
works.

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And he said it's too non
specific.

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It binds all over the body to
everywhere.

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It's in fat stores, it's in
proteins, it's in membranes,

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it's in lipid, it's everywhere.
I said yeah, but it's highly

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selective.
It only effects consciousness

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and nothing else.
He said yeah, but it's too non

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specific.
But it was a valid objection.

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How do you that's the paradox.
And about a few months ago I

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think I figured it out.
The anesthesia binds for these

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non specific quantum forces.
They go and they bind to

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everything, and yet the only
thing they're affecting is

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consciousness.
Why?

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The answer is.
So let's let's dive straight

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into the deep end.
I think that orchestrated

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objective reduction theory of
consciousness is one of the most

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intriguing ones out there.
And it's it's great that I have

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this opportunity to pick your
brain.

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So let's start with some of the
foundational aspects.

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How do you define consciousness?
And let's perhaps do a brief

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summary of what Orko our theory
is.

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OK, well, defining consciousness
is not that easy.

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A a brief apocryphal story is
that there once was a

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consciousness conference or
decided to find it on the first

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day and then explain it the rest
of the week.

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And by the end of the week they
were still squabbling about the

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definition.
So there are a lot of words, you

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know, experience, qualia,
phenomenal subjectivity, first

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person feelings, emotions,
they're all part of it.

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You can have self consciousness,
but some kind of awareness, some

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kind of experience as opposed to
just having behavior.

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But from a scientific
standpoint, I like to define it

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as what goes away with
anesthesia and comes back when

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the patient wakes up.
And I borrowed that from John

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Searle, who, who defined
consciousness as what goes away

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with sleep, dreamless sleep and
comes back and when you wake up.

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And fair enough.
Anesthesia is different because

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we can study it to see exactly
what goes away with anesthesia

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to find the neural correlate of
consciousness.

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So that's basically one of the
one of the approaches for

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consciousness.
And you asked to, you know, a

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brief overview of ORKO are.
So it starts with the you know,

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most people would say that the
brain is a complex computer of

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simple neurons, simple meaning
some kind of integrated logic

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threshold logic device integrate
and fire.

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Hodgkin, Huxley, McCullough,
Pitts worked out the Physiology,

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but it's all it's a membrane.
It's all membrane channel

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receptors and channels opening
and closing and and ions

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traveling across and getting a
propagating electrical signals

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to move either analog or or and
the dendrites are are digital

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and the axons.
And that gives you a nice device

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for computer, make a gazillion
of those, hook them up with

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variable connections and you
have a self self organizing

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neural network type computer,
which is what everybody assumes

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the brain is.
And maybe it is, but that's not

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necessarily all it is.
And that also doesn't explain

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consciousness because a computer
has an output and then somebody

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has to look at the at the
monitor to see the output.

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And so who's looking?
That's that's the problem.

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So is consciousness just
computation or is there

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something else?
And several ways to look at

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this.
Dave Chalmers when he defined

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the hard problem, was suggesting
that it's something other than

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computation.
Now he seems to have backtracked

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on that.
Rodger Penrose, of course, in

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his book The Emperor's New Mind
said that using Girdle's theorem

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that that consciousness is more
that, and conscious

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understanding is more than is,
is more than just computation.

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Because you need an outside like
in girdle searing, you need some

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outside system to validate or to
judge the, the proof of a, of a

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theorem.
And in this case to, to have the

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understanding of the meaning of
something.

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So that was a different way of
approaching it.

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And so anyway, I was, I got
interested in microtubules when

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I was in medical school, in
medical school, I was interested

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in the brain, mind, neurology,
psychiatry, neurosurgery, but

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none of those lifestyles appeal
to me.

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And my advisor who was a Hemant
guy suggested I, I just do

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research like he says, you know,
he says you might like it.

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And I'd never done anything like
that.

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But it was a cancer lab and they
were studying mitosis, how the,

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the chromosomes divide and the
daughter cells form.

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And everybody else got
interested in the chromosomes

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because, you know, genetics,
genetic engineering was just

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starting.
And but I, for some reason, I

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got interested in how these
these mitotic spindles made of

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microtubules seem to know where
to go, where to go, which

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chromosome to grab and pull them
apart perfectly.

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Because if they weren't
perfectly paired sets, you'd

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have malignancy or some kind of
metal development.

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And I still think that mitosis
may be a cause of cancer

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actually.
And a lot of people think that

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too.
Aneuploidy or but anyway, so I

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at that time, the early 70s, it
was also discovered that the

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same structures, microtubules
were in all cells because prior

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to that the fixative agent for
electron microscopy was

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dissolving them for 30 years.
So for 30 years that people

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thought the inside of cells was
like a, a minestrone soup of

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stuff floating around.
And then when they switched, the

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guy at Harvard, Keith Porter,
switched from osmium tetroxide

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to glutaraldehyde, and all of a
sudden they saw all the

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structure.
And then they thought that was

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an artifact.
So another couple years they

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argued back and forth and
finally, no, it's real.

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These are microtubules and other
cytoskeletal structures.

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The cells, particularly
asymmetrical cells like neurons,

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have to have something
structurally supporting them.

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And their structure looked like
a computer matrix.

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I was just learning about
computers in a very rough way

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and Boolean switching matrices
and logic and all that.

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And the neural Nets were just
beginning.

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And so I thought, well, maybe
there's some kind of computer or

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molecular automata was actually
the most correct term because I

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work with some physicists who
model them in cellular automata

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of the cell being the individual
state of the tubulin.

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So we developed all these models
for information processing in,

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in, in microtubules.
But I, I skipped over a step

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because I in my on my way to
describe the Oracle Arthur in

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that after medical school, I, I
moved out to Tucson, AZ where I

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still live and went into
anesthesiology because the chair

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of the very brand new anesthesia
department at the brand new

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medical school said you, you
want to understand

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consciousness, figure out
anesthesia and you like

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microtubules.
Here's a paper by a friend of

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mine in England that show that
anis, that halothane, an

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anesthetic, depolymerizes
microtubules.

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And it's published in The
Lancet, the number one journal

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over there, although it turned
out it's five times as much as

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you need to go to sleep with.
So deep polymerization is not

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the answer, but it showed some
kind of interaction.

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So I went into anesthesia
because he said that, you know,

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it's right up your alley
research wise.

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And it's it's a lot of fun.
It's good money.

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So here I am.
I did 49 years of clinical

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anesthesia and just retired six
months ago.

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And now I'm just doing a
research purely in a slightly

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different area, but so I was
going around in neural network

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meetings being a real pain in
the butt saying or AI meetings

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that they they were saying, OK,
the singularity, you know, for

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brain equivalents for
consciousness, you needed 100

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billion neurons at maybe 1000
synapses. 100 Hertz gives you 10

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to the 16th operations per
second for the whole brain.

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And there's about a billion
tubulins per neuron switching at

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say 10 megahertz, that gives you
10 to the 16th operations per

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second per neuron per single
neuron.

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So I was going around being a
real thrown in their side and

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saying, no, your, your target's
way, way downstream.

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You're not even close.
And you got to consider what's

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going on inside.
And they said, no, you don't get

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out of here.
You bother us, kid.

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I was sort of a kid then anyway,
but one day somebody said, OK,

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Mr. Wise asks, let's say you're
right.

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And how does that explain
consciousness?

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How does that explain feelings,
Lovejoy emotion?

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And I, you know, and I was kind
of stunned by the by the

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question, which is basically the
hard problem before it was

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actually characterized by Dave,
although other people had Searle

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for 1:00 and had described it in
other ways.

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And but I said I don't know.
And he said you should read this

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book Rodger by Rodger Penrose,
Sam prisoner mine.

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And that was really a life
turning moment for me because I

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did.
And I didn't really understand

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the book totally cause but I got
that it was he was onto

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something about consciousness.
And you know, as I said, I used

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Girdle's theorem to prove that
you need something else and that

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depressive elimination had to be
a quantum physics and collapse

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of the wave function and a
particular type of class that he

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invented or discovered, which
was the solution to the

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measurement problem.
So he was solving killing two

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birds with one stone, as they
say, or, And of course, Dave

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criticized us for that when we
teamed up saying these guys are

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invoking a mythical law of
minimization of mysteries.

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He got one mystery here, one
mystery here.

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They must be the same mystery.
And my answer is, well, why the

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hell not?
And you know, Occam's razor

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would suggest if you have one
solution to two grand mysteries,

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I'd throw in a third, actually,
the origin of the life, but

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maybe we'll come to that later.
But anyway, so I wrote, I wrote

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to Roger, I read I read the book
and he needed a some kind of

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quantum device in the brain and
he didn't know what it was.

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He just flat out said, I have no
idea.

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And, and so I wrote him a letter
and said, hey, it's

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microtubules.
I mean, I was more polite than

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that.
I said, I told him about

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microtubules, a book book.
I've written several articles.

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And I said, by the way, I'm
going to be in England in the

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fall, I'd be happy to come visit
you.

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And he said, great.
So I met him in his off.

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Well, he met me at the train
station.

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We walked back to his the
Mathematical Institute and we

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sat there for about four hours,
during which I did 99% of the

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talking because he just said,
well, tell me about microtubules

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then.
As you can tell, I like to talk

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about him and I haven't even
gotten there yet, but he, he was

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very inquisitive.
Well, he started off by saying

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that he was going to this
conference at Cambridge

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Unconsciousness with
philosophers Dan Dennett and Pat

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Churchland 2 eliminative
materialist philosophers who

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really were very, they didn't,
they didn't want to hear, hear

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anything about quantum or
microtubules or anything.

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I so, but anyway, but he said
he's going there.

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I said, why?
That sounds like fun, but I got

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to go to this other meeting.
So we, he shook my hand and said

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goodbye.
I said, well, thank you, It was

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great to meet you.
And I walked away thinking,

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well, gosh, I got to meet Rodger
Penrose.

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That was cool.
And two weeks later I was back

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in, in, in London and my friend
said, hey, I went to this

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conference in Cambridge and
Rodger Penrose was talking about

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you and your microtubule thing.
I said, wow.

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And that was that was another
thrill.

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So soon after that I got invited
to a meeting that he was at in

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Sweden and, and we started team
up and I invited him to the

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first Tucson consciousness
conference and we cooked up this

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theory orchestrated objective
reduction.

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So as you may know, or probably
know, objective reduction is

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Roger's solution to the
measurement problem in quantum

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mechanics.
And, and one, one of the things

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he did that that is truly
amazing is that unlike anybody

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else in this field, he, he dealt
with the issue of how can we

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understand what a superposition
is?

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How can something be in two
places at once at the same time?

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What, what could that possibly
mean?

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You know, how do we, how do we
grok that?

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00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:20,520
And he used general relativity.
And, you know, Einstein said

228
00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:26,360
that, you know, gravity or mass
and cause space-time curvature

229
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:27,920
was the same as space-time
curvature.

230
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,720
And that light behind the sun
would bend around the sun and be

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00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,400
visible on Earth during during
an eclipse.

232
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,400
So you wouldn't be blinded.
So the light was actually bent.

233
00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,480
So Eddington did the experiment,
proved him right.

234
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:42,600
Eddington won his own Nobel
Prize.

235
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,360
And space-time is curved and
everybody knows that.

236
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,160
But what about that's for big
things?

237
00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,440
What about tiny things?
And Rodger applied that to

238
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:57,000
quantum particles, protons,
electrons, and they could be in

239
00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,040
two states.
What does it mean for them to be

240
00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,840
in two places at the same time?
And he said well if each is a

241
00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,200
curvature in space-time, so a
particle here is a curvature

242
00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:11,320
going this way and the same same
particle over here is the

243
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,320
curvature going this way.
So that the superposition

244
00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:19,640
whether the same particles here
and here is 22 curvatures, which

245
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,320
is a separation in space-time
geometry.

246
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,960
And so it forces you to think
that, you know, space-time, some

247
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,480
kind of, it's easy to conceive
of it as A2 dimensional sheet

248
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,760
and use these cartoons to do
that, which were very helpful.

249
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:35,920
And you had a curvature here
curvature and you could see them

250
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,480
separating.
And I've always thought that,

251
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,280
well, you know, many people
think there is no collapse and,

252
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,240
and each possibility continues
in many worlds.

253
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:46,800
And these separations were there
to continue.

254
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,520
Each would have its own universe
and you'd have many worlds and

255
00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,000
do it again and again.
And and a lot of people believe

256
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,720
that's what happens.
But Rodger said the separations

257
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,600
are unstable and after time T
will collapse to one or the

258
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,120
other.
And and here was the big kicker.

259
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,800
There would be a moment of of
conscious experience or proto

260
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,600
conscious experience.
And that was because this

261
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,640
collapse was the only thing that
could give you a non computable,

262
00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:15,560
you know, non classical
computational answer or

263
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,000
implication or effect on the
collapse.

264
00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:21,920
It could influence it one way or
the other.

265
00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,360
And and that's what you needed
for consciousness and therefore

266
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:31,000
qualia and all experience must
go along with it, which was a

267
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,160
bit of a leap, but I think a
logical 1 because I think you

268
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,560
want all that, all of that, you
know, you want non computable

269
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,440
selection, you want experience,
you know, choice, free will and

270
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:47,440
so forth.
So anyway, he but he didn't have

271
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:54,440
a so the, the collapse occurred
at time at time t = H bar over E

272
00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,360
sub G, which is the only
equation in our theory.

273
00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,720
So where was I?
So we, we teamed up and he came

274
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,320
to the first Tucson conference
and we started developing the

275
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,160
theory.
But before we'd even had a

276
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,800
manuscript, we were attacked by
Pat Churchland undergrad student

277
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,720
Rick Rush, who was making fun of
it.

278
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,600
And yeah, because of it.
Will, you know, basically

279
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,680
argument was everybody knows
it's ridiculous.

280
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:22,720
And that's their argument.
Everybody knows it.

281
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:28,880
So but, but so they wrote, they
wrote this attack piece.

282
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:33,560
And the first part of the of
their article was about Godel's

283
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:35,040
theorem.
It was very philosophical.

284
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,160
I I really couldn't follow it.
The second part was about the

285
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,560
biology of microtubules.
And I think Pat must have

286
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,840
assigned this to the poor
graduate students.

287
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,080
His main argument was that
there's a drug called colchicine

288
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,120
that is used for gout.
And you know, gout is an

289
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,280
inflammation of usually the,
the, the big toe or some other

290
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,880
joint because of uric, uric
acid, crystal urate.

291
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,160
And they cause an irritation,
inflammation and the immune

292
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,760
cells migrate into the joint and
once they're in, they release

293
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,200
all these bradykinins and
cytokines and all this stuff and

294
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,440
it causes an inflammatory
response cause of swelling.

295
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,080
The thing swells and hurts like
hell.

296
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:20,400
This is in an enclosed space.
And so the drug culture scene

297
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,440
prevents microtubules from
disassembling to then re

298
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,360
polymerized.
So an immune cell to go in this

299
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,520
direction that's pointing over
here, the, the microtubules

300
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,400
disassemble and reassemble and
go in that direction and it

301
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,800
prevents them from doing that.
Therefore the, the immune cells

302
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,360
can't move.
Therefore there's no

303
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,240
inflammation, cytokine release,
Therefore the pain goes away and

304
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:45,440
everybody's happy.
But they said Rick, Rick and Pat

305
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:50,680
said, well, all the microtubules
in the brain in, in the body

306
00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,520
would be polymerized.
And we, you stay conscious.

307
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,960
People aren't with taking
colchicine don't lose

308
00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:01,320
consciousness and therefore
microtubes cannot be the seat of

309
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,880
consciousness.
So I said, Roger, I got this one

310
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,079
is easy.
So I my point was number one,

311
00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:09,920
colchicine doesn't cross the
blood brain barrier, so it's not

312
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,760
even going to get there.
Number two, it only effects

313
00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,760
microtubules that are actively
disassembling and reassembling.

314
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,920
And neuronal microtubules don't
do that because at least in

315
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:21,480
dendrites are capped at both
ends.

316
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,839
So they're perfect memory sticks
because each tubulin state in

317
00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:28,520
the lattice is going to stick,
keep that relationship to its

318
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,120
surrounding.
If they disassembled and then

319
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:33,400
reformed to something else and
came back together, you'd lose

320
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,040
all that.
So they're capped.

321
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,840
And I think that's, that's
critical for memory because we,

322
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:38,240
we don't really know where
memory is.

323
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:43,000
I mean, neuroscience, synaptic
proteins, but those synaptic

324
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,840
proteins last hours to days and
memories last lifetime.

325
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,320
So it can't be microtubes, the
perfect place, particularly in

326
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:53,440
dendrites and soma anyway.
So getting back to this attack

327
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,040
piece so that it's not going to
be affected because they don't

328
00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,520
disassemble.
And the third, I found a paper

329
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,480
where somebody injected culture
seen right into the the brain of

330
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,520
a rat and wiped out the brain,
wiped out the rat.

331
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,080
So loss of cognition and
consciousness.

332
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,240
So that part was easy and some
other silly things.

333
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:18,000
And we wrote this rebuttal.
And one funny thing is that Pat,

334
00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:19,680
I don't know if you know her,
but.

335
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,400
And I'm, I'm speaking, I've
spoken to Pat before on the on

336
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,560
the show.
You can be pretty.

337
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,840
Yeah, pretty snide.
And at least at least when it

338
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:32,400
comes to me.
And she said that at the

339
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,800
beginning of the article.
I I'm attributing this to, to

340
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,240
her, but it goes eagerly to
Grush.

341
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,520
But she said they're referring
to our theory, which we hadn't

342
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:45,280
even formulated.
They said the theory is, what

343
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:50,120
did they say?
No better than a one in a

344
00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:55,320
gazillion Caterpillar with
hookah hypotheses, one in a

345
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,840
gazillion Caterpillar with
hookah hypothesis referring to

346
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,440
Alice in Wonderland.
And so anyway, at the end of all

347
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:08,320
this, Roger and I, we had to
respond and we said, well, it's

348
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,680
not that we're in Wonderland.
Perhaps their heads are in the

349
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,600
sand.
And Roger on the Shakespearean,

350
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,200
perhaps P apostrophe.
RAPSI said, I went along with

351
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:22,720
that and, and then at the very
end, the, the editor, publisher

352
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,760
of the Journal of Consciousness
Studies, Roger and I were at a

353
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,200
meeting at the Fetzer Institute
and, and we get a fax and said

354
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,160
the publisher wants to include
this cartoon that he, he

355
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:38,160
commissioned for the occasion of
your fight with Pat and, and,

356
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,120
and, and Rick Rush.
And do you approve?

357
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,560
And they faxed it over and it's
this.

358
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,600
So it's Alice in Wonderland.
So I'm, I'm the on the left is,

359
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,440
is a, is a giant mushroom
toadstool and with a, a

360
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,840
Caterpillar sitting on top of it
smoking a hookah.

361
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,440
And the Caterpillar.
Caterpillar looks shockingly

362
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,720
like me.
In fact, it did look like me.

363
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,880
And and then on the far side is
Rodger dressed as the White

364
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,800
Rabbit, holding the keys to the
Platonic realm and the door

365
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,880
which is behind him.
And in between us are two rather

366
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:18,200
large ostriches with their heads
buried in the sand and their

367
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:23,000
butts facing the viewer with G&C
for Russian Churchland and the

368
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,880
Caterpillar.
Is blowing the hookah smoke

369
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,560
right up their butts.
So it was kind of a slap at all

370
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:35,720
of us.
You know, as far as the article

371
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:42,200
goes, that that article came out
before our first exposition of

372
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,800
the Orca war theory, which came
came out about six months later.

373
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,320
So anyway, that that came out
and you know, we were

374
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,040
criticizing ridicule right from
the start.

375
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,520
Everybody knows the brain's too
warm, wet and noisy for quantum

376
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:57,440
effects BLOB, but you don't need
microtubules.

377
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,200
Silly, silly arguments.
And I mean, you know, the

378
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,240
decoherence the warm temperature
was was a valid 1 because if you

379
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:10,640
want a quantum computer in the
technology, you have to do it at

380
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:15,000
absolute 0 temperature.
But you know, our attitude at

381
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,400
that point, we didn't have any
evidence either way was that

382
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,040
biology had had billions of
years to evolve a mechanism.

383
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:22,880
And this would certainly be
beneficial.

384
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:28,840
So, and I also knew about that
the anesthesia acts by quantum

385
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,360
forces and that's all they, they
don't form chemical bonds at

386
00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:38,960
all.
So let me switch to anesthesia a

387
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,240
second, because as I said, it's
the best way to to figure out

388
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,880
anesthesia to figure out if you
figure out what goes away.

389
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,800
So the the first thing, it's a
bit paradoxical because the

390
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,640
anaesthetics don't form chemical
bonds.

391
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,720
They have these very weak van
der Waals forces that are

392
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,360
quantum interactions because
they have filled electron outer

393
00:21:56,360 --> 00:22:02,240
shells or for example, xenon.
Xenon is an, an element, a noble

394
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,560
gas.
It's one atom and the electron

395
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,440
outer electrons are are are are
filled and so it doesn't form

396
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,920
any chemical bonds.
But if if you have two two of

397
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:18,080
them together, the electron
cloud in this one repels the

398
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,440
electron cloud in this one.
So you get a dipole like a

399
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,040
little magnet.
So you have a dipole here and

400
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,440
dipole here and then they
attract and couple and they

401
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,840
oscillate.
And anything at that level will

402
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,480
oscillate with these van der
Waals force will oscillate in

403
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,680
terahertz, which is infrared.
And that includes aromatic rings

404
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,400
like benzene ring and, and, and
phenyl phenyl rings and, and

405
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,240
indole rings and like tryptophan
and all the psychedelics, they

406
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:48,080
all have the, the indole ring.
And in fact, also almost all

407
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,120
segoactive molecules are
aromatics.

408
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:53,400
So they have this, this benzene,
which has the Pi π electron

409
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,040
resonance and has quantum
optical effects.

410
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,560
So they're fluorescent.
And I knew about fluorescence

411
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,480
because I had, I had done a
project on actually in when I

412
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:07,440
was a, a resident on
fluorescence anesthetic effects

413
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,760
on fluorescence of proteins from
rat brain.

414
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,120
And I showed an effect, but I'm
not sure it ever got published.

415
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:17,920
It was kind of an amateurish
thing.

416
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,040
But that basic idea of
anesthetics affecting quantum

417
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,440
optical states is actually it
was, it was spot on.

418
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:28,000
But anyway, because, well, we've
done much, much, much more since

419
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,680
then.
But anyway, the aromatic rings

420
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,040
are all inside the protein and
inside the microtubules and they

421
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,080
form these quantum channels that
can go not only within the,

422
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,040
within the tubulin, but to the
next tubulin, to the next, to

423
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,600
the next.
So you get a misoscopic or

424
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,800
macroscopic length quantum
state, which I think it's the

425
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,600
only, only I, I don't know of
any others.

426
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,360
Well, I'm sure there are, but I
mean, technologically that'd be

427
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:56,040
hard to do to make a quantum
state that would go a

428
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,920
millimeter, for example, in
length.

429
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,000
But I don't know, maybe, maybe
it's easier.

430
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,440
I mean, lasers do it, but you're
always pumping energy, and in

431
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,320
biology we're pumping anabolic
energy anyway, so we got

432
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,160
criticized.
Tegmark had this famous stupid

433
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,080
argument that microtubules deco
here in 10 to the -13 seconds,

434
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,080
but he made it a mistake of
seven orders of magnitude in his

435
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,640
calculations, which brought it
down to 10 to the minus 6th.

436
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:20,840
We found another mistake
bringing around 10 to the minus

437
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,880
fourth, but 10 to the minus 6th
is fine because that's all we

438
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:32,120
need for, for the to avoid
decoherence and a bunch of to be

439
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:33,760
honest, in my opinion, I'm
biased.

440
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,360
Of course, nobody, none of these
attacks and there been a lot of

441
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:42,440
them have have laid a glove on
us in, in boxing terms or MMA or

442
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,360
whatever it is.
Now I, I, you know, and we've,

443
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,240
we have a fair amount of
supportive data from anesthesia

444
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,880
effects on quantum optical
States and microtubules.

445
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:58,280
And there's more stuff coming
that I'm, I'm, I'm not, I can't

446
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,800
discuss at this point because I
promised my good friend not to

447
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,360
say anything.
But I'm pretty happy about what

448
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:06,600
the future is going to bring in
this in, in terms of

449
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,760
microtubules as the, as the
origin of consciousness due to

450
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,000
some due to quantum mechanism.
You, you touched on quite a few

451
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,040
things that I've already made
notes about, but you've, you've

452
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:18,840
slowly touched each one.
The quantum coherence.

453
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,520
I, I made a note about that.
I mean, obviously, how do you

454
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,480
make, how do you do this within
a warm, noisy environment?

455
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:27,600
And you've briefly touched on
that.

456
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,440
But let's start off by
explaining the concept of

457
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,440
objective reduction in ORKO R
and how it's unique a bit to

458
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,120
other interpretations of quantum
mechanics.

459
00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:39,280
And then from there, we can
slowly move into microtubule

460
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,360
structure, the terahertz that
you eventually go into with

461
00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:49,120
regards to tubulin, etcetera.
OK, objective reduction is

462
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:51,680
Rodger's solution to the
measurement problem in quantum

463
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,200
mechanics.
It it unifies or connects

464
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,560
quantum quantum physics and
general relativity, which is

465
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,920
another one of those mysteries
that he seems to have solved.

466
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:08,960
And it's, he bases it on and 1st
formulating a, a picture, a

467
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,400
conceptualization of what
superposition is.

468
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,040
It'd be nice to understand what
we're trying to explain.

469
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:18,280
And he's, his theory is the only
one that does that by the

470
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,200
space-time separations, as I, I
explained before.

471
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,200
So I mean, he uses these
two-dimensional space-time

472
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,000
sheets as a imagery and
illustration.

473
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,200
And it was, it was useful to me.
I mean, so it takes 3 dimensions

474
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,040
of space and converts it to one
and then one dimension of time.

475
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,960
So you have evolution of, of
time and then any a particle

476
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,800
would be a curvature and its
movement would be the curvature

477
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,800
kind of changing directions,
that sort of thing.

478
00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:47,720
So and then you can picture a
superposition, as I said before,

479
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,840
of two separate, of separated
curvatures.

480
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:53,280
And were they to separate, they
would continue when each would

481
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,760
have its own universe or evolve
in its own universe.

482
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,280
But he said, no, the the
separations are and as they

483
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:00,840
evolve in time, they're
unstable.

484
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,880
As they evolve, they reach a
time T equals H bar over E sub

485
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,120
G.
So H bar is the plank Dirac

486
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,680
constant, the plank constant
over 2π and E sub G is the

487
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,840
gravitational self energy.
And this is something I had to

488
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,760
try to understand when we first
started working on it because he

489
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,040
handed me an equation and he
said please let it go homework

490
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:23,840
for a student which was really
kind of cool.

491
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:30,480
And but E sub G is the energy
required to pull mass apart from

492
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,120
itself.
So whether it's, you know, my

493
00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:39,880
fist or a, or a, an atom or a
protein like a tubulin, you got

494
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:41,800
to pull it apart in a
superposition.

495
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,600
And the amount and, and other
properties of that superposition

496
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,360
give you E sub G.
So the more the superposition,

497
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,560
the, the smaller the T and the
faster it'll collapse.

498
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,800
So if you can get something very
large in superposition, it'll,

499
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,440
it'll reach threshold
essentially almost immediately.

500
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,760
Something small if you had an
electron or, or a proton in

501
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,600
superposition and superposition
would take a long time, you

502
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,760
know, 1000 years, maybe.
I, I can't remember the, the

503
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:14,640
number, but so, and, and the
larger the superposition, the

504
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,040
faster the collapse, the greater
we, we kind of put this as a

505
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,480
supposition, the, the more
intense the experience when the

506
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,560
experience occurs.
And I should say that when the

507
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:32,160
experience occurs in in a random
micro environment, which is most

508
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:37,680
of the time, the experience
would be disconnected, random,

509
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,880
lacking in context meaning and
and what we call what Rodger

510
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,280
coined as proto conscious.
And this could be happening

511
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,920
everywhere all the time as kind
of a background proto conscious

512
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,120
noise.
And it would have to be if the

513
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,920
theory is correct.
And this sounds kind of weird,

514
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,560
but on the other hand, people
resort to pan psychism, which

515
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,360
basically says the same thing
that there's consciousness

516
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,440
everywhere attached to matter.
But if you attach it to matter,

517
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,600
then you have the problem how
you how you combine it into

518
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:10,680
unified conscious thoughts and
and how do you go from proto

519
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,040
conscious to conscious?
And with quantum it's it's easy

520
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,960
because you have entanglement.
So if you can figure out how

521
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,840
they entangle, then you have a
unified conscious content,

522
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,000
that's all.
So for example, spatial temporal

523
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,600
binding, you see something
moving to the the sky and it's

524
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,720
it's shape, color, motion,
meaning roughly are are

525
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,920
processed different parts of the
visual cortex moving forward

526
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:38,560
from V1 to the front and, and at
different times and at different

527
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,360
places and different times.
And yet you see one object, you

528
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,560
see a a blue kite or a, a yellow
bird or airplane or whatever

529
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,720
instantaneously.
The, the color, the shape, the

530
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,520
and that's because of binding.
And there's, and that's easy if

531
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,160
you've got entanglement, which
is non local in both space and

532
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,160
time.
And neuroscience, cognitive

533
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,200
science still doesn't have a
good mechanism for that.

534
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,600
And they invoke coherent gamma
synchrony over the whole brain.

535
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,880
And, and yet it's hard to
explain how you can have zero

536
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,600
phase lag gamma synchrony over
the whole brain with, even with

537
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,920
the phaptic transmission.
I mean, certainly not with

538
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,720
membrane transmission, with a
particular, with synapses, but

539
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,000
even with it, you know,
electrical stenipsis or

540
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,760
refractive transmission because
that that dies off over quickly

541
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,000
from with with length efaptic
does.

542
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,880
And so it's, it's hard to
explain zero phase like gamma

543
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,400
synchrony.
Even if that could explain

544
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,520
binding, you'd still have the
fact that they're all different

545
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,560
all over the place and OK,
they're synchronized, but So

546
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:35,960
what?
But if they're entangled,

547
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,560
they're they become part of 11
conscious entity, 1 experienced

548
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,640
entity.
So that's one.

549
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:45,920
Yeah.
So you, but you want to know

550
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,560
about OR per SE.
And I let me just add by saying

551
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,400
that the other possibilities.
So, you know, going back 100

552
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,840
years to Niels Bohr and all
those guys, they knew the things

553
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,040
would be in superposition.
They knew when they measured

554
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,840
them, they were not in
superposition.

555
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,720
They were definite states.
Some people said, well, the wave

556
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,960
function collapses.
And then later Everett said,

557
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,200
well, everyone has a its own
possibility.

558
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,880
And Bora basically says, I don't
want to know about it.

559
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,320
Just make the measurement and
we'll use the results.

560
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,240
And so he didn't care about the
reality.

561
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,440
And of course Einstein differed
with that and want to know about

562
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,000
the reality.
And that would that that kind of

563
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,800
discussion debate between
Einstein and Bora was played out

564
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,360
between Rodger and Anton
Zeiliger.

565
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,640
And Zeiger won the they both won
the Nobel Prize since that time.

566
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,560
And I, I was in a meeting in
Lucerne.

567
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:49,280
The Swiss Biennial is run by
Renee Stedler and a good friend

568
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,720
of mine.
And he he had Zeinlinger and

569
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,280
Roger and they had this
fantastic debate about this and

570
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,280
it spilled over to the dinner
and I, it was just so enjoyable

571
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,360
and they're both such great
guys.

572
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:08,520
But anyway, so this he was kind
of in the camp.

573
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,080
Well, let's just do the
entanglement.

574
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,240
Of course, he won a Nobel Prize,
so he can't argue with that.

575
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,720
But Rodgers interested in what
really goes on.

576
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,560
And the other explanation was
consciousness per SE caused the

577
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,240
collapse or reduction.
And well, first it was

578
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,840
measurement like a machine and
then vigner had this idea.

579
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,600
Well, no, it has to be
conscious.

580
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,200
It has to be consciousness
because even in the machine the

581
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,000
results can be superposition.
We don't really know.

582
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,720
So that came along with the idea
that led the the consciousness

583
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,560
causes collapse of the wave
function that even Chalmers has

584
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,480
embraced.
Now, it's hard to understand

585
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,920
why, but for one thing, it
doesn't explain consciousness.

586
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,240
It leaves it as a complete
mystery #2 it doesn't explain

587
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,000
how if you observe the conscious
observer is it's basically

588
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,560
telepathy because you're
observing a, a, a system that's

589
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,440
it's not attached to directly.
And it's not like the photons

590
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,640
going this way.
Or maybe unless they're coming

591
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,600
out or something's, there's some
action at a distance of

592
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,680
consciousness.
And we know that that actually

593
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,040
this does appear to happen in
the double slit experiment.

594
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,360
So it can't be totally wrong.
So anyway, so there's the the

595
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,520
conscious observers, then
there's decoherence that any

596
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,720
interaction with the
environment, but the

597
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,680
environment, the micro
environment's also going to be

598
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,160
quantum.
And so I, so I think, you know,

599
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,000
environmental interactions could
actually be a form of objective

600
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,040
reduction because you have the E
sub G of the system and you have

601
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,760
the E sub G of the environment
and they add up and they reach

602
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,960
threshold and you have a
collapse, except it's random

603
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,560
because it's in a random micro
environment.

604
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,200
So decoherence might, you know,
might be a different form of

605
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,800
actually the same form of, of
objection reduction.

606
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,320
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure businesses agree

607
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,280
with you, but seems to me that
objective reduction could

608
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:59,200
explain all of it.
And so we had that that's

609
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:04,440
decoherence and multiple worlds
we'd say doesn't happen because

610
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,880
there's a collapse before.
And you know, one interesting

611
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,880
thing was that these actually
Hartman Nevin and David Deutsch

612
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,040
has been saying this for a long
time that that the quantum

613
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,760
computers proved that there must
be many worlds because they say

614
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,560
the number of calculations that
needs to be done in one of these

615
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,760
quantum supremacy experiments is
so vast that it would require an

616
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,239
infinite number of universes.
And you know, I, I find that

617
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,199
difficult to believe, but, and I
can't, but I can't disprove it

618
00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:39,080
except to say that in, in
Roger's view, you have these

619
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,960
localized superpositions with it
could be more than could many,

620
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,000
many possibilities, but here and
there and everywhere doing more,

621
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,520
more local without being
integrated.

622
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,560
So it's kind of like localized
versions of many worlds take

623
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,400
advantage of that without saying
about a reality in in this

624
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,800
world.
So I, I think it to me, a non

625
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,680
physicist and one who's
definitely biased because I'm

626
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,480
rather fond of Roger and, and
found also that he's always been

627
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,360
right.
I I can't think of anything he's

628
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,320
really been wrong about and.
Do you feel that the that

629
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,920
dichotomy between the many walls
or, or the Copenhagen

630
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,840
interpretation, this sort of
dichotomy sort of adds to this,

631
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,240
let's say, critique from others?
Because there's a chance that if

632
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:29,400
this goes down the other path,
then you guys are completely

633
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,600
wrong.
Completely wrong if it goes.

634
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,960
Yeah.
Yeah, actually.

635
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,080
And that that's really relevant
right now because Hartman, Nevin

636
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,440
and Christophe Koch, I've come
out with this idea that

637
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:50,120
consciousness occurs due to
quantum effect of of, but it, it

638
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,360
occurs when the superposition
forms at the beginning of the

639
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,240
superposition before it reaches
any threshold, because according

640
00:35:57,240 --> 00:36:03,200
to them, there is no threshold.
So Hartman's a good friend of

641
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,400
mine, but I have to, you know,
really disagree with this

642
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,720
because as I told him, they say
if you put it in the

643
00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:14,280
superposition, you haven't come
to any conclusion but it.

644
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,400
But let's say, OK, he said.
Well, that's at the very

645
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,840
beginning of the superposition,
which is kind of cheating, but

646
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:22,680
it's kind.
Of like you're.

647
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,240
Looking at the possibilities,
it's kind of like if you go to

648
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:27,280
restaurant and you decide what
to have for lunch and you look

649
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,200
at the menu and you're going to
have ABCD or E and I'm going to

650
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,200
have CA hamburger.
But he's going to have all of

651
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,040
them because he's saying
consciousness is in a

652
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:37,840
superposition.
So it doesn't make any sense

653
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,520
unless you, you know, I guess
his answer would be, well,

654
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,200
you're, you choose the hamburger
in the universe that you go off

655
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,720
to.
So anyway, it, it doesn't make a

656
00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:50,280
lot of sense to me.
I think it's it's a way of maybe

657
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,040
just to find the quantum
computation, but I don't think

658
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,000
we need to do that.
Human consciousness student,

659
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,080
what are your thoughts on some
of the.

660
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,120
Other quantum theories of
consciousness.

661
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,680
I know you, if you think about
Robert Lawrence Kuhn's landscape

662
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,080
of consciousness, he's got you
there.

663
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,600
He's got your theory.
And then there are there's there

664
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,720
are other people like let's say
John Joe McFadden with the semi

665
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:13,440
field theory.
You've got other quantum

666
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,800
biologists, let's say, working
on this, but from a different

667
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,520
perspective.
Do any of them, do any of their

668
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,240
theories of consciousness
intrigue you or do you find that

669
00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:25,080
objective reduction OK?
R It's just got it going and

670
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,000
that's the one they all intrigue
me and I check.

671
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,680
Them all out.
And I think we're, we're, we're

672
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,240
better than than than.
Of course, I'm, I'm biased, but

673
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:36,040
I'm, I'm also, you know, I've
also run the the science of

674
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,160
consciousness conference for
3031 years.

675
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:43,000
So I've seen them all and I've
known almost all of but you

676
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,360
mentioned John Joe and he is a
quantum biologist.

677
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,960
But the semi theory I don't
think is particularly quantum.

678
00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:51,280
It's electromagnetic field
theory.

679
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:59,720
And there are are a lot of those
now and but and electric fields

680
00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:01,720
can shape the cytoskeleton
actually.

681
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,720
But when they say that, my
question would be what's the

682
00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:06,280
frequency of the field you're
looking at?

683
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,080
Because I think these the fields
they're talking about are, are

684
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,560
oscillating or they, some fields
in there are oscillating.

685
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,320
And we know from Honor Bond's
work that they're oscillating in

686
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,360
multiple scales.
And so for example, you may have

687
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,400
a oscillation at the gamma, you
know, 40 Hertz oscillation.

688
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,200
OK, that's a field.
So that's one.

689
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,160
But if you look at smaller,
faster inside which Honor Bond

690
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:35,800
has done so, you see activity in
Hertz like an EEG 40 Hertz, but

691
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,640
you see also see activity in
kilohertz, megahertz, gigahertz

692
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,920
and terahertz every three orders
of magnitude.

693
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,720
And he's found traces to the
microtubules or we found it in

694
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:51,160
microtubules.
So basically the initial

695
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,600
experiments were if you take a
microtubule and you, well, he

696
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,720
actually looked at it in three
different scales, but starting

697
00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:00,000
at the middle scale and you
attach electrodes to it at

698
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:05,200
either end, and then and then
four, four more, you use two to

699
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,960
stimulate and two to record.
Now, if you just put a voltage

700
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,480
across the microtubule, it's an
insulator.

701
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,000
But if you put an alternating
voltage, an alternating current,

702
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,960
and you will find certain
frequencies when it becomes

703
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,120
highly conductive, like almost a
superconductor.

704
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,640
And, and when it does that and
plot the resonance it, you get a

705
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,240
particular pattern.
So which is the same every three

706
00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:30,000
orders of magnitude.
It's a triplet pattern and each

707
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,480
triplet peak has 3.
So it's a triplet of triplets

708
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,800
and you see that in, in in
kilohertz, megahertz, gigahertz

709
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,720
and terahertz and in
microtubules and also in

710
00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:43,160
tubulence, even in the
individual tubulence and even

711
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,280
coming from cells.
So it's, it's all kind of

712
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,280
coupling together.
And now you can measure it from

713
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,960
the scalp and EEG or what he
calls DDG for dodechthenography

714
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,920
for 12 orders of magnitude.
So and we've done some

715
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,520
preliminary experiments with
with megahertz and some more of

716
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,000
that is coming out hopefully
soon.

717
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:02,240
And I think it's been pretty
exciting.

718
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:08,760
Looking at effects, well, I'm
not going to say I promise just

719
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,120
that, but you and Roger made an
agreement.

720
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,320
You have to.
Wait, do we have to wait for it?

721
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,320
What's that?
You and Roger, you've made a

722
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:18,920
made.
A pact let's keep this a secret

723
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,800
until the Oh, wasn't Roger no
Otterban.

724
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:27,480
OK I see Stuart.
So the when I think about

725
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,000
theories of consciousness,
something I like to explore on

726
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,080
this channel is what are the
philosophical implications of

727
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,200
this theory?
So there's many ways we can go

728
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,440
into this with Orca R.
What would you say are some of

729
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,840
the philosophical implications
on, let's say, the hard problem

730
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,240
itself and the concept of free
will?

731
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,560
Well, hard the hard problem.
Itself, you know, we we fall

732
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,800
back on consciousness experience
being fundamental and so we're

733
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,040
dealing at the level of
space-time geometry, the Planck

734
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,880
scale and you know a lot of
people are trying to scribe it

735
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,280
to something in physics to make
a connection between the brain

736
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,240
and consciousness and the
universe in some way.

737
00:41:08,240 --> 00:41:13,520
In fact, that's a major theme of
our conference in, in Spain, in

738
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,280
Barcelona in July, the science
of consciousness and basically

739
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,040
this connection between the
quantum effects of the brain

740
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,040
and, and fundamental space-time.
And we have not only Rodger who

741
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,560
started this all off, but
Federico Fajine and Nassim

742
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,480
Harriman and a bunch of other
Don Hoffman and a bunch of other

743
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,160
people.
So it's going to be pretty,

744
00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:35,480
pretty cool because we're
actually going to take this

745
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,720
seriously and say, OK, how is
there a connection?

746
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,360
You know, Rogers objective
reduction was the first, but

747
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:46,840
Nassim, he and his, he and his
team are looking seem to be

748
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,520
finding triplets in space-time.
So that would be an amazing

749
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,600
connection And and honor Bond
will be there too.

750
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,640
Of course I didn't mention him,
but he's also, by the way.

751
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,920
Can I talk about I think.
I yeah, he's, he's building self

752
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:06,360
organizing quantum computer in
India and other people are doing

753
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,920
that too, but I think he started
it and warm temperature self

754
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,280
organizing organic quantum
computer.

755
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,120
So we'll be hearing about that
at the conference and also about

756
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:23,440
his other amazing stuff.
They checking megahertz.

757
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,680
So yeah.
So things are good in

758
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,280
microtubule Orko, our land, I
think, even though the rest of

759
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,360
the world hasn't figured it out
yet, you know, I think there's a

760
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,280
little suppression and and, and
and politics.

761
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,880
I think, you know, AI is again,
OK, the multiple worlds people

762
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,000
are against us because that
would invalidate then because

763
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,000
you can't have multiple worlds
in in Orko.

764
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:54,600
Our AI is against us because we
we're kind of undermining the

765
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,600
idea that the brain is a complex
computer of simple neurons and

766
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,880
therefore an AI can be conscious
because it's the same thing.

767
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,720
It's complex arrangement of
simple on all switches and

768
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,720
ignoring the fact that it's
biology and we and we don't know

769
00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:11,840
what life is.
I mean that's we still have

770
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:16,160
don't know what life is And I'd
like to come back to that 'cause

771
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,640
that's what I'm doing now in
astrobiology, searching for the

772
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:23,240
origin of life.
But as far as Orco, are you

773
00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:24,720
asked about the philosophical
implication?

774
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:27,680
So the hard problem by by
connecting this to the

775
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,640
fundamental level of the
universe, which is also

776
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,840
spiritual.
And it kind of says addresses,

777
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,480
you know, our place in the
universe and who we are, which I

778
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,240
think would be good to know.
And you know, if if you're a

779
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,680
computationalist, you pretty
much accept the fact that

780
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,640
consciousness is epiphenomenal
and merely along for the ride

781
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,280
and comes too late to do
anything anyway, at least for

782
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,960
real time stuff.
But there's a trick to that and

783
00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:56,360
the backward time effects which
we can come back to.

784
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:03,280
But the other thing is that I've
been embroiled in lately is one

785
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,880
potential implication is in near
death and out of out of body

786
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,840
experiences and even afterlife
and and.

787
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,760
Reincarnation, which is.
I've been fighting about online

788
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:21,120
lately and because, so I, I
think that consciousness is,

789
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,320
occurs in this, in this scale
invariant hierarchy.

790
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,320
And, and a lot of people have
brain models of a hierarchical

791
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,360
system starting with the neuron
as a fundamental, yes, on and

792
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,560
off switch and then going upward
in skate in size, you know, to,

793
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,080
to slower and slower, larger and
larger.

794
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,160
And then, you know, in EEG and
then maybe the Schumann

795
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:44,640
resonance or something like
that.

796
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,160
But I think the real hierarchy
is going the other way, going

797
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,920
smaller, deeper, faster inward.
And because you have

798
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,840
microtubules in every cell and
they have the same resonance

799
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,880
triplet patterns and you see
these at the scalp or actually

800
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:02,360
all over the body, 'cause
there's microtubules everywhere.

801
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:08,880
You, you see them best over the
brain and also a joints where

802
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,320
there's a lot of osteoclast and
osteoblast activities in the

803
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:21,520
microtubules in the bone.
But the, the, so it can happen

804
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,080
at, at these various
frequencies, including as you go

805
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:28,840
faster and faster with the
triplets, you can actually get

806
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:33,680
faster and smaller than, than
than biology and then even

807
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:37,760
matter even mass.
Because in, if Rodger's right,

808
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:39,600
this has to go all the way down
to the Planck scale.

809
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:45,000
And so in biologically, we, we
go to 10 to the -10 to the 15

810
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,440
thirds and the Planck scale is
10 to the 43.

811
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,800
So that's a big step.
But I, you know, this is where

812
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,040
Nassim Harmon and, and, and his
group come in because they're

813
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,760
looking at the structure or the
geometry of space-time.

814
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,800
And if they see, they're hinting
that they may be seeing these

815
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,960
triplets all the way down, which
should be pretty, pretty

816
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,400
amazing.
And that so the microtubules

817
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:14,400
resonate to some frequency
pattern that goes all the way

818
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,560
the universe.
And this self repeating

819
00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:22,360
frequency pattern is we've honor
Bond calls it a time crystal.

820
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:27,000
And time crystals I've been
learning about recently and

821
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:31,480
trying to learn about and they
were actually so time a time

822
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,120
crystal is something that
repeats in a time domain with a

823
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:39,440
frequency.
So a spatial crystal, salt or

824
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,040
diamond, anything, it just
repeats periodically in space.

825
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,840
And so you have a crystal
lattice in space spatially.

826
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,800
In a time crystal.
You have a system that may

827
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:55,400
extend its space, but it has
frequencies that repeat at

828
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,280
different, at different scale.
Sorry, the same patterns repeat

829
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,760
at different scales and, and so
like in a microtubule in

830
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,920
kilohertz, megahertz, gigahertz,
terahertz, and maybe all the way

831
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:10,720
down.
Now actually technically a time

832
00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:13,520
crystal is only at one
frequency, but there's something

833
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,200
called a polyatomic time crystal
that can be a multiple

834
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,360
frequencies.
And so that's what Honor Brown's

835
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,760
talking about.
And polyatomic time crystals and

836
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,680
microtubules, which could be a
key feature of life because one

837
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,960
thing life needs.
So why, why would we want this?

838
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:32,760
Well, one thing we, we transcend
scale.

839
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,920
So things that have information
at the molecular level can be

840
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,080
instantly transmitted to the
macro level.

841
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,320
So for consciousness, that's
exactly what you need.

842
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,480
It may have something to do with
the hologram too, but I can't

843
00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:48,920
can't quite figure that out yet.
But we're getting there because

844
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:50,960
I think the hologram is actually
a pretty good model too.

845
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,280
But the, the polyatomic time
crystal may turn out to be an

846
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,520
important discovery that honor
bond made in, in, in biology.

847
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,640
So it was first proposed for
biology in a, in a general way,

848
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,040
but not in a quantum way by Art
Winfrey in 1960s.

849
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:09,960
And then Frank Wilchek, who won
a Nobel Prize for something

850
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,760
else, proposed them in physics,
but you have to pump them for,

851
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,680
and he proposed that in 2012.
And I think somebody just did

852
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:19,280
that.
It had like 40 minutes of

853
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,560
activity after you pump it in a
technological device.

854
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,160
But we're saying it's a quantum
system that starts in the ground

855
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,320
state, the way the oscillators
in the ground state.

856
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:35,280
And so it's kind of a a, as I
was criticized by Lee Cronin

857
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,720
because he said, well, it's it's
a perpetual motion machine.

858
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,960
And I said, yeah, but so is
life, you know?

859
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,200
And so that's where we're at
right now.

860
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,480
Time crystals may turn, probably
time by time crystals may, may

861
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,600
turn out to be quite important.
So how would we?

862
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,560
Sorry, continue to us.
I just want to finish that point

863
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,000
which is.
That if you get fast enough with

864
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,520
these oscillations,
consciousness can still occur by

865
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:05,120
time T = H bar over E sub G, But
as if you if the E gets bigger

866
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,960
and bigger as you go faster and
faster, T gets smaller.

867
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,480
Well, the T gets smaller, so you
get more entanglement.

868
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:16,880
And you could in principle, your
consciousness could be non local

869
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,840
and quite literally leave the
body and exist in space-time

870
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,040
geometry.
And so I think, you know, I'm, I

871
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:27,840
don't claim any evidence for out
of body or, you know, life after

872
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:32,480
death or consciousness after
death or out of body or

873
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:34,680
reincarnation, but I don't think
they're impossible.

874
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,720
I think they're plausible.
If consciousness isn't non local

875
00:49:37,720 --> 00:49:39,720
in space-time, then any of this
is possible.

876
00:49:39,720 --> 00:49:44,360
And as you know, it's been in
most cultures and religions

877
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,240
forever, these these kinds of
phenomena.

878
00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:49,280
And they're pretty good
descriptions for reincarnation.

879
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:53,000
Even these these kids who get
interviewed have birthmarks at

880
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,600
the site of their, the trauma
that that killed their, the

881
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,320
person there, they appear to be
reincarnating.

882
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:03,680
So I think all of that is now it
is potentially on the table,

883
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,800
although, you know, whoever
leads that charge is going to

884
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:12,440
get slapped back.
And I think, I think it's

885
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:14,800
anyway, it's it's something that
that can be discussed now.

886
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:16,400
Yeah, it's like it's, it's sort
of.

887
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,280
Opens the door to new research
in the future because one of the

888
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,720
questions I was going to
eventually touch on was as an

889
00:50:22,720 --> 00:50:25,280
anesthesiologist, you're
obviously you've been exposed

890
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:28,720
throughout your life with cases
where someone's in a coma

891
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,080
someone's under anesthesiology
or someone's to getting

892
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,760
operation done because how would
this affect our view on someone

893
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,640
who's alive, let's say in a coma
dead.

894
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:42,160
So this this definitely has
certain practical implications

895
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:46,080
now as well.
Yeah, yeah, I, I.

896
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,120
I've had a, a slight
disagreement with with Honorban

897
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:54,240
and many of my Eastern friends
because they think that, you

898
00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:55,720
know, I said, well,
consciousness goes away under

899
00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:57,360
anesthesia.
They no, you can't, You said you

900
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,640
can't go away.
And then I say, well, OK, well,

901
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,280
you know, proto conscious
experience is, is everywhere.

902
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,720
It doesn't go away.
So no, no, they, they wouldn't

903
00:51:05,720 --> 00:51:09,640
accept that.
And let's just say we'll have

904
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,880
data on that soon.
What exactly what happened to

905
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:16,120
the raesthesia?
But I'm I'm not allowed to I

906
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:20,160
can't.
That's a bit of a story, but but

907
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,960
the point is the Orca war gives
the a plausibility argument for

908
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,920
reincarnation and even
afterlife.

909
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,880
I was as when you were.
Practicing anesthesiology or

910
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,120
full time, how was that approach
during your clinical practices

911
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:38,640
and did it did it affect the way
you worked and how other

912
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,160
anesthesiologists perceived you?
Because you're you're not

913
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:42,840
talking about things that
obviously I know a lot of

914
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,040
doctors don't tend to enjoy
engaging I.

915
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:48,960
Mean.
I mean philosophical.

916
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,960
Discussions about some did and
some didn't, and some of them

917
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,680
were really into it, you know,
they, they, they, they knew me

918
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:57,320
and something.
But actually I was better known

919
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,400
for other things in the OR like
the same jokes every case and

920
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,040
stuff like that.
That had nothing to do with my

921
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,840
my research.
So so it.

922
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,120
Really impacted the way.
Well, obviously, I know because

923
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,080
this is my, this is my favorite.
I'll be talking about the mind

924
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,880
body problem, consciousness, but
it doesn't really, I would say

925
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:16,880
filter too much into the
clinical practice.

926
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,880
So, so I can understand you
being in theatre completely

927
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:21,480
zoning in on the case.
Not really.

928
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:24,400
Right.
I mean basically.

929
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,160
You know, avoid hypoxia,
hypertension, dysrhythmias, keep

930
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:31,000
them warm and you know, the same
as you as you got them.

931
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:35,160
You know, that's, and there's a,
it's, it's a big job And you

932
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,680
know, I did it for 49 years.
I mean, I was supervising

933
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,800
residents and CR and as most of
the time, but I did a lot of my

934
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,440
own cases.
And I'll tell you, looking back,

935
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,040
I, I loved it.
I I, it was, you know, grueling,

936
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,200
intense and stressful, a lot of
time, but very rewarding because

937
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:53,600
you know, you, you take care of
patients.

938
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,080
It's different from your kind of
general practice, family

939
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,440
practice, where you build a
relationship with people over

940
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:00,680
time.
And some people say, well, how

941
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:02,360
you know, you miss yeah, you
don't get that.

942
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:04,600
But you know, when somebody
comes in for surgery, they're,

943
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:10,200
they're usually scared, anxious.
And as my, my first chairman

944
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:14,080
says, you, you, you make your
first eye contact is more

945
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,120
important than than 10
milligrams of Versailles.

946
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:21,920
Let me know that you're
empathetic but confident.

947
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:23,760
You know, you're, you're not
scared.

948
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,160
You may be concerned or anyway.
So stuff like that.

949
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:35,080
But I, I didn't have any near
death or autobiotic experiences

950
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,720
in my patients.
That awareness under anesthesia

951
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:39,680
that that was the point I'm
going to, I mean, that's

952
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:43,320
something that, you know, you,
you want to avoid also, because

953
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,120
there have been these cases of,
of awareness under anesthesia

954
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:52,520
and you know, my so I, I, I was
pretty, I was good at, at

955
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,560
leaning a little bit heavily on
the anaesthesia as long as it

956
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,320
was safe.
I mean, it's pretty good safety.

957
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:00,480
But anyway, yeah, I was, I had a
good career.

958
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,120
Let's just leave it at that.
And and I enjoyed it very much.

959
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:05,240
On that note, though, scales of.
Consciousness.

960
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:10,320
How does oak OR account with a
spectrum of consciousness from

961
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:12,960
the basic sensory awareness just
like what you're talking about

962
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,240
now in terms of awareness under
anaesthesia, how would this

963
00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:19,760
differ?
Well, as I was saying.

964
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:23,280
We have this scale invariant
hierarchy and consciousness can

965
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,040
occur anywhere along it.
It's kind of like a musical

966
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,160
scale, you know, like sheet
music even, which I don't

967
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:30,400
understand but well, a little
bit.

968
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,760
But.
And so in fact, I think

969
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:38,320
consciousness is a lot like
music and it can occur at

970
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:42,880
different frequencies.
The Orca war events themselves

971
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,960
are like notes or chords
occurring across multiple scales

972
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,680
or one scale that may be
bouncing back and forth, kind of

973
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,600
like music resonating.
It can be harmonic or anharmonic

974
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,160
and and it's a, it's a time
progression.

975
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:01,360
So you have chords and it just
moves along and that except it's

976
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,120
not just sound, it's everything
else also.

977
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:12,000
So, so it quite literally is a
spectrum given by T = H bar over

978
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,200
E sub G And so the time can
vary.

979
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:19,320
And so it's a lot like photons.
So that's why we, we figured

980
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:23,520
that the high intensity, high
frequency, large superposition

981
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:27,840
mass must have the most
experiential intensity and, but

982
00:55:28,240 --> 00:55:32,160
regardless of the content.
And it also relates to, you

983
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,960
know, other organisms, including
animals and plants, because

984
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:38,440
plants have microtubules.
So I have a, I have a graph

985
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:44,000
somewhere of the plotting the
number of tubulins versus the

986
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:47,280
intensity in different,
different species.

987
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,680
Starting with I had, I don't
know, I still don't know whether

988
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,280
whales and, and elephants have
more microtubules or not.

989
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:58,480
But starting with, with us and
going down to a plant which

990
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:02,680
might have 100 microtubules,
whereas we have, well, I should

991
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,000
put it in tubulins because we
can count the tubulins might

992
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:07,920
have like 1000 tubulins per
cell.

993
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,760
And whereas we have a billion
per cell.

994
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:16,040
And depending on and, and we
have 10 to the, if you want to

995
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:19,760
count glia, we have 10 to the
20th tubulins in the brain.

996
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:24,120
And that which by the way, is
the, the most abundant protein

997
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:26,640
in the brain.
So if you want to, if somebody

998
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,400
asks you, well, what's the brain
made of?

999
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,680
And you say, well, neurons, but,
but, but structurally or by or

1000
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,000
molecularly, tubulin would be
the answer.

1001
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:35,200
Microtubules would be the
answer.

1002
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,840
The brain is more is more made
of tubulin than anything else.

1003
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:40,560
And yet microtubules are
particularly ignored.

1004
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:42,080
Are are completely ignored
generally.

1005
00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:44,880
You know, I once asked a famous
neuroscientist, Rodolfo, you

1006
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:50,760
know, sees old timer at some
dinner and I said yeah, about

1007
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:52,640
microtubules.
I said, I said, don't.

1008
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:54,840
He said, you know, I see them
all the time.

1009
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:56,560
They're just laying there.
They're just sitting there.

1010
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:57,920
I said, you want him to wave at
you?

1011
00:56:57,920 --> 00:56:58,880
What?
What do you want him to do?

1012
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:01,840
I mean, you know, if you look at
a computer, is it like doing

1013
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,200
anything unless you turn it off?
So anyway, they get they get

1014
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:08,440
ignored, but they need to be be
kind of quiet and left alone and

1015
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:10,160
do their quantum, their quantum
things.

1016
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:11,640
One of the things I appreciate
is the.

1017
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,800
Way you look at the complexity
of a cell in itself because when

1018
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:18,280
you think of every cell a single
neuron is so complicated and you

1019
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:20,840
and you tend to highlight this
point that you can't just take

1020
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,280
all that information that
complexity and just put it into

1021
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:27,240
a bit and and and then you refer
to them as cartoon neurons,

1022
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,320
which I find very funny,
especially when I watch your ex

1023
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:33,840
having your debates what how did
you come to that idea the

1024
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:43,080
cartoon neuron well.
There it it goes back to OK at

1025
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,920
the first Tucson consciousness
conference, the science

1026
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:50,760
consciousness in 1994 in Tucson
that I organized Christophe, I

1027
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:53,000
invited Christophe Koch.
He's he's well known even then

1028
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:56,240
he'd work with Francis Crick and
Francis Crick had written this

1029
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:58,720
book, the astonishing
hypothesis, which basically said

1030
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:03,200
that the brain is, is basically
a bunch of computer of neurons.

1031
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:06,920
And it's kind of amazing because
Crick had, you know, worked on

1032
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:11,920
the very refined DNA problem of
looking at information at the,

1033
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:15,400
at the molecular level, some,
some molecular level.

1034
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:18,440
And when it came to neurons, it
was like, you know, it's A1 or

1035
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,840
A0I.
I was like kind of surprised by

1036
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:22,960
that.
And then he teamed up with, with

1037
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:25,120
Christophe.
I don't know who influenced 2

1038
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:29,760
into that.
But by the way, at this first

1039
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:31,640
first, I'll come back to
Christophe in a second, But the

1040
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:34,520
same conference where Dave
Chalmers gave the same as hard

1041
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:37,400
problem talk, which, which kind
of which was great, actually.

1042
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:39,520
And the first two philosophers
were boring as hell.

1043
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:42,680
And he got up and out of the
room and all the heart.

1044
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:45,000
Now that's why we're here.
Now we get in kind of brought

1045
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:47,920
all the interdisciplinary
aspects together.

1046
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:52,400
But at at Christoff's talk, he
showed a picture of a neuron

1047
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:56,800
that was just a membrane, the
synapse, you know, inputs on the

1048
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:01,680
dendrite integrate to a firing
at the threshold at the AIS they

1049
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:05,680
call it now and a firing or not
and one or zero and firings

1050
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,760
mediate consciousness.
He just made-up that flat out

1051
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:11,720
statement.
And but so I was chairing a

1052
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:15,200
session and I said, Christophe,
let me ask you something.

1053
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:17,960
Your neuron is still in the
picture of it's empty.

1054
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:21,320
There's nothing inside of it.
And I said, why don't you look

1055
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:23,760
at the microtubules and all
their information processing?

1056
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:29,440
And he said, Stew tells me Stew.
He says, Stew, I'm going to

1057
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:33,520
answer as my favorite cowboy
Western actor, Clint Eastwood.

1058
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,880
And that is to say, a man's got
to know his limitations.

1059
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,520
And I finally, this is a line
from Magnum Force or something

1060
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:43,480
like that.
And it was a good comeback

1061
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,280
because it, it kind of got me
back on my heels and everybody

1062
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,640
laughed.
And I'm not, you know, what were

1063
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:50,400
we laughing at?
He completely avoided the

1064
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,640
question.
And I said, so all you can

1065
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:55,440
handle is a membrane.
He goes, yeah, that's right.

1066
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:58,880
So that had persisted for 30
frickin years.

1067
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,320
And because it it plays
perfectly into the AI.

1068
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:08,080
Story that AI can be conscious
because the neuron's just an on

1069
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:12,040
off switch, an integrated fire
threshold logic device, which

1070
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:14,000
that was his position still his
position.

1071
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,200
So then he had to bring in
panpsychism and this and that

1072
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:23,280
and the way I think but anyway,
the whole neuron.

1073
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:29,880
Yeah, so recently and then OK,
so jump ahead and 20 years or 25

1074
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,720
years, I can't remember.
So we had the temple had this

1075
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:36,080
big project on adversarial
collaboration and consciousness

1076
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:38,520
studies with different the
different theories and they had

1077
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:41,800
five original theories, 5
theories to start with.

1078
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:45,120
So IIT integrated information
theory that Christophe had

1079
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:47,360
glommed onto with Giulio Tononi
and Chalmers.

1080
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:52,240
The three of them pushed it and
made it the, according to them,

1081
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:55,400
the leading theory.
And despite no evidence, no

1082
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:57,440
biology.
I'm, I'm digressing here because

1083
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:02,480
you give me the opportunity.
And I I said, Dave, this is

1084
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,080
about 10 years.
And I said, Dave, why is IIT the

1085
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:08,320
leading theory?
He goes because leading people

1086
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:13,960
say, so I'm going thank you.
And Christophe and Julio, he

1087
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:18,080
goes, yeah, I said, oh, OK, the
the legion of charming accents.

1088
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:23,040
I got it.
So when the so we we tried to

1089
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:25,720
have an adversary collaboration.
So anyway, we were invited into

1090
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:28,560
the let me back up.
I'm getting ahead of myself.

1091
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:32,560
So Templeton invited 55
theories, IIT, global

1092
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:37,880
enrollment, workspace, recursive
predictive coding, recursive

1093
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:42,120
processing, higher order thought
and US Orko are and all the

1094
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:45,720
others are based on neurons as
simple, simple neurons.

1095
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:53,480
And we had a meeting with with
I, with Julio and Christophe and

1096
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:54,520
we couldn't come to an
agreement.

1097
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:58,400
You know, I said what we want to
do is we want to demonstrate a

1098
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:00,640
quantum effect in a microtubule
and show it goes away with

1099
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:02,120
anesthesia.
That's our experiment.

1100
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:06,040
And they go, OK, fine, well,
let's do it in the in the, in

1101
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,280
the, the brain of a of a live
awake monkey and then we'll put

1102
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:11,360
the monkey to sleep.
I'm going, you know, you don't

1103
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:12,560
understand.
It's never been done before.

1104
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:16,320
It needs to be got an optical
table with no vibration, lasers

1105
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:19,760
lined up perfectly.
You can't do it in a monkey.

1106
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,920
It's moving around and then put
the damn monkeys.

1107
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:25,000
No, and besides it, it's totally
cruel.

1108
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:28,600
And so it, it broke down.
But so we, we never did the

1109
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:33,320
experiment and, but, and those,
and those experiments like cost

1110
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:35,480
$5,000,000 when they actually
did it because they had all

1111
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,120
these patients and the
experiments did get done for

1112
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:40,400
them.
But tumbling gave us money just

1113
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:42,920
to do our experiment.
They gave us $100,000 to do the

1114
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:45,880
experiment.
Did a Princeton in Greg Skoles

1115
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:50,160
lab with Aura Kalra
Injectorsinski and basically we

1116
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:52,800
demonstrated quantum effect,
ambient temperature and a

1117
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:57,680
microtubule with fluorescence.
Hit it with UV light and an

1118
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:02,280
excitation propagates along the
microtubule but farther than it

1119
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:05,440
should have by classical.
So it was there for quantum and

1120
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:08,520
then we gave it two types of
anesthetic, etomidate, which is

1121
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:11,720
a liquid anesthetic and then and
a gas isofluoride and both of

1122
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:15,000
them took it away and inhibited
the, the propagation both the

1123
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:17,640
time and the distance.
So our experiment worked.

1124
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:21,320
None of the other experiments
that they spent $30 million on

1125
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:22,880
have produced anything that I
can tell.

1126
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:26,880
It's just been a big, this came
up at, at, at the, the last

1127
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:31,360
Tucson conference in, in Tucson,
we had a 30 year, the, the

1128
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:35,080
closing session was a 30 year
reminiscence with Christophe.

1129
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:39,080
Me, Dave and Sue Blackmore got
in there somehow even there.

1130
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:40,520
I'm chatting to.
I'm chatting to you.

1131
01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:44,400
Soon, in about a week's time.
Was this the same?

1132
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:49,000
One where Christophe gave Dave
his bottle of wine or his

1133
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:51,200
creative wine.
No, no, no, no.

1134
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:53,760
No, no, no, no.
That was the ASSC conference.

1135
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:56,600
I see.
That really pissed me.

1136
01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:02,400
Off I got to admit OK because as
I just said, our experiment

1137
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:04,880
worked.
None of the other experiments

1138
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:08,480
showed anything the, the, the
big global neuronal workspace

1139
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:14,080
IIT thing was, was inconclusive,
completely inconclusive.

1140
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:15,960
And none of the others have
shown anything.

1141
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,640
And that cost $5,000,000 for
100,000.

1142
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:20,920
They got a beautiful experiment
that nobody knows about.

1143
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:24,200
And the reason that nobody knows
about it because at the ASSC

1144
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:26,480
conference, which did in New
York, which they've rent.

1145
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:28,560
So there, there are two
conferences, ASSC and the

1146
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:30,040
science of consciousness.
I run the science of

1147
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:33,560
consciousness ASSC and we're not
on good terms.

1148
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:38,280
Let's just be honest about it.
And that's because of of honor

1149
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:42,600
ban and have honor ban.
And I have I have submitted work

1150
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:46,760
the last three ASC on megahertz
EEG and they've been rejected.

1151
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:48,280
They don't want it.
They don't want to know about

1152
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:52,320
it.
And, and I, I, and so at, at the

1153
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:57,960
including the one in New York
that they've ran and, and they

1154
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:02,960
had made a bet 25 years ago that
Christopher said by 25 years we

1155
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:05,000
would know the neurocortial
consciousness.

1156
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:09,640
And Dave said, no, we won't.
And Chris Love had admit, no, we

1157
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:12,360
don't, we don't gave him a case
of wine or whatever.

1158
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:15,640
And Chris Love told me privately
later, she says, you know, I

1159
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:18,680
could have said that your, your
experiment did show

1160
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:20,520
neurocorrelated kind of, but I
didn't think it's quite there

1161
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:21,640
yet.
I'm going.

1162
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:27,520
And then so they made this big
deal about it.

1163
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:31,120
It was all over, as you know.
And then what's the name?

1164
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:33,360
John Horgan wrote an article
about it in Scientific American

1165
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:38,200
and he asked Dave, he said,
well, why didn't you consider

1166
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:40,960
the quantum theories, quantum
approaches?

1167
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:43,640
And he said they're too fringy
for this conference.

1168
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:47,320
So he said we're despite him
saying that to, to solve

1169
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:49,280
conscious, you need something,
you need something really,

1170
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:52,520
really bizarre and nothing is
strange enough yet.

1171
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:56,040
And but we're too strange.
So and then, you know, then he

1172
01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:59,240
came out in favor of AI being
inevitably conscious.

1173
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:02,160
So I probably, I probably said
too much already.

1174
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:05,720
Tell me.
Do you think it's just purely

1175
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:09,000
because of this, this mystery
behind quantum mechanics at this

1176
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:10,400
point?
Because at this point, I would

1177
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,760
say that people are a lot more
receptive to different theories.

1178
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:15,760
There's a lot more panpsychist
theories out there.

1179
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:18,040
There are a lot more idealist
theories out there.

1180
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:22,120
I've spoken to Federico and Don
Hoffman and, and when and, and

1181
01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:24,360
initially when you see how they
started out, how many people

1182
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:27,360
were against it, you can slowly
see people slowly becoming more

1183
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:30,320
receptive towards it.
Have you felt that this is at

1184
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:32,080
least happening towards you
guys?

1185
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:34,680
Yeah, but it's.
It's still divisive.

1186
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:38,920
I mean, like I said, you know,
maybe I'm paranoid or maybe I

1187
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:42,680
just like to fight with you.
But but I think AIIAI is is

1188
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:45,240
suppressing.
I mean not maybe intentionally

1189
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:49,360
directly, but by they fund seem
to fund a lot of cartoon neuron

1190
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:52,680
labs and you know, places that
would never ever in a million

1191
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:55,200
years consider looking at
microtreatables or higher

1192
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:56,640
frequency.
I think they're all going to be,

1193
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:00,200
you know, I'm not worried about
it because I think I keep

1194
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:03,720
hinting it results that we'll
have within the next year.

1195
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:06,600
So I'll I'll.
Definitely once those.

1196
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:09,080
Come out, I'm going to put links
to those in this video, but I'm

1197
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:10,880
looking forward to that.
What would you say are some of

1198
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:15,240
the ethical implications that
Oco R might raise, especially

1199
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:18,400
concerning potential altering of
consciousness, maybe through

1200
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:22,000
pharmaceuticals or technology
because that's rapidly evolving?

1201
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:25,280
Well, if we understand
consciousness.

1202
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:27,920
We ought to be able to treat its
its problems.

1203
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:33,800
I mean, for example, let's
Alzheimer's is is is an

1204
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:35,960
important it's not it's not
quite the same.

1205
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:38,520
I'll come back to your question
about altering consciousness

1206
01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:41,840
because obviously Alzheimer's is
more about memory, but it also

1207
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:45,640
does affect consciousness.
Eventually there are two.

1208
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:48,680
Lesions in.
Alzheimer's and the amyloid

1209
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:53,680
plaques that everybody the drug
companies spend billions if not

1210
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:56,200
trillions on to develop these
drugs, none of which work.

1211
01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:57,800
They're toxic.
They cause bleeding.

1212
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:00,520
They cost 40,000 a patient per
year.

1213
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:03,240
They don't do shit, pardon my
French.

1214
01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:09,640
The other lesion are the
neurofibrillary tangles inside

1215
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:12,440
neurons that are caught that are
from Tau protein.

1216
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:14,360
Tau is a microtubule associated
protein.

1217
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:18,880
So normal healthy conditions
it's a, it's, it's attached on

1218
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:22,000
the microtubule lattice at
particular lattice points and in

1219
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:26,359
fact is a signal for where the
motor proteins which walk along

1220
01:08:26,359 --> 01:08:29,319
the microtubules deliver
synaptic cargo, synaptic

1221
01:08:29,319 --> 01:08:33,680
plasticity jump off and deliver
their cargo because you know

1222
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:35,640
otherwise how they can know
which synapse needs what.

1223
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:39,720
So that has to be so there it's
encoding of the of the of the

1224
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:45,479
Tau on the microtubule is the is
the memory code and that that 11

1225
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:49,200
aspect of it and that tells the
motor proteins where to boost

1226
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:55,240
that that particular synapse.
So if the microtubules

1227
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:58,279
disassemble.
The Tau.

1228
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:01,640
Has, you know, falls off, it's
got nowhere to go.

1229
01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:06,439
Or if the Tau fall, the Tau also
stabilizes the microtubules, so

1230
01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:10,040
it might get hyper
hyperphosphorylated and then

1231
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:12,960
fall and fall off and that
destabilizes the microtubules.

1232
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:18,120
Which of those scenarios is not,
is not clear, but in I in both

1233
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:21,640
cases and what we in either
case, what we see is that the

1234
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:27,200
Tau is, forms these clumps,
neurofibrillary tangles and

1235
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:32,240
there are pathogen mnemonic of,
of Alzheimer's disease more so

1236
01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:35,920
than the amyloid plaques.
And more importantly, or equally

1237
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:38,319
importantly, the microtubules
disassemble, they fall apart.

1238
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:42,560
So if you're, God forbid bones
were to fall apart, dissolve,

1239
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:44,880
you'd, you know, shrivel up and
you know, you'd be on the floor,

1240
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:47,399
right, nothing holding you up.
That's what happens on the

1241
01:09:47,399 --> 01:09:49,520
neurons.
The you lose the synapses

1242
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:52,319
because you know, they're not
connected to the neuron anymore

1243
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:55,920
and the Axon retracts, the
dendrites retract.

1244
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:58,800
They the neuron shrinks and the
brain shrinks.

1245
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:01,960
Yes, it's cerebral atrophy and
you lose memory, you lose

1246
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:03,880
cognition.
Eventually, you know, you lose

1247
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:06,760
consciousness.
So the amyloid plaques probably

1248
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:08,920
have very little to do with it
in, in the real time.

1249
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:14,640
They may cause something that
but in 19, a paper came out in

1250
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:21,160
1989 from UCLA, Matsuyama and
Jarvik microtubules are

1251
01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:23,760
hypothesis microtubules, the key
to Alzheimer's disease.

1252
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:27,800
And they pointed out everything
I just said and I thought great,

1253
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:32,840
but yet everybody kept, you
know, beating the dead horse of

1254
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:36,280
these stupid amyloid plaques and
including some good friends of

1255
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:38,160
mine who are, you know, in, in
that field.

1256
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:41,560
So, OK, well, what do we do
about the if it's the

1257
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:43,200
microtubules, what do we do
about it?

1258
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:50,400
Well, when I read about the Ana
Bond's work in I first met him

1259
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:53,800
in 2010, I think, and learned
about all this.

1260
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:57,520
I, I said, OK, so microtubules
have kilohertz, megahertz,

1261
01:10:57,520 --> 01:10:59,600
gigahertz, terahertz, resonance
vibrations.

1262
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:03,440
Maybe we can use those
frequencies to boost their

1263
01:11:03,440 --> 01:11:06,480
activity, to treat them, maybe
to improve mood, maybe to make

1264
01:11:06,480 --> 01:11:08,680
you feel good.
So I went through it.

1265
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:11,080
So kilohertz is not too much
like electricity.

1266
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:15,400
Megahertz is radio waves,
gigahertz is microwaves,

1267
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:18,760
terahertz is photons.
So I said, well, none of the, I,

1268
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:22,000
I wasn't eager to do any of that
into a person.

1269
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:25,440
But then I, I realized that
megahertz is also ultrasound and

1270
01:11:25,440 --> 01:11:27,160
I looked over, I was at the
hospital and there's an

1271
01:11:27,160 --> 01:11:28,320
ultrasound machine sitting
there.

1272
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:31,160
I said, I wonder if anybody's
ever put ultrasound in the

1273
01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:33,440
brain.
And so I looked it up and I

1274
01:11:33,440 --> 01:11:38,520
found that a guy in at ASU, our,
our kind of Archer of the

1275
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:42,120
university right up the road
here, a really good guy named

1276
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:46,040
Jamie Tyler had been doing it in
animals and finding

1277
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:48,280
physiological effects.
He had implanted electrodes and

1278
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:52,160
then ultrasounded from the
outside and see see electrical

1279
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:55,440
activity or you could stimulate
the motor cortex and they this

1280
01:11:55,440 --> 01:11:58,680
paw would move and so forth.
So here's the physiological

1281
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:04,200
effects and I also discovered
that it was approved for imaging

1282
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:09,760
of the brain but wasn't but
before CT and MRI came along.

1283
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:11,960
So what you know which are much
better but was still you.

1284
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:16,640
It was used and still used on
newborns through the Fontanelle

1285
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:19,040
where there's no there's no
skull bone to look for bleeds.

1286
01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:22,960
So if a baby's not right,
neurologic think they might have

1287
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:25,480
had a bleed you, they looked
through the, the font nail and

1288
01:12:25,480 --> 01:12:29,200
look the, you can see the whole
top of the cortex for like 30

1289
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:31,480
minutes at a time.
So I figured it can't be that

1290
01:12:31,480 --> 01:12:33,240
harmful and might be helpful,
who knows?

1291
01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:41,680
So anyway, I, I used to run the
chronic pain clinic And, and so

1292
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:45,360
I, I knew a little bit about
chronic pain and the patients

1293
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:47,760
are all depressed, you know, not
all, but most of them.

1294
01:12:48,480 --> 01:12:51,920
And so I said to my anesthesia
colleagues, including the ones

1295
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:54,960
around the pink, like I said, we
should try giving ultrasound to

1296
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:57,360
our pain patients and see if
they get better from their

1297
01:12:57,360 --> 01:12:59,960
depression.
And they go, yeah, right.

1298
01:12:59,960 --> 01:13:01,000
Hammer.
That was my name.

1299
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:03,560
And, and anesthesia hammer.
As if I put him to sleep with a

1300
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:06,640
hammer.
Yeah, great.

1301
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:08,200
Your idea.
You go first.

1302
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:10,240
You got a nice shaved head.
Just we'll watch.

1303
01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:13,960
And so they call my bluff.
And, and so the end of at the

1304
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:15,920
end of a long day, I was sitting
around the conference room,

1305
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:18,200
wheeled in an ultrasound
machine, and they're all sitting

1306
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:21,400
around watching me.
And so I put the put the goop on

1307
01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:24,560
here and I turned the thing on
and I put it hold it in my head

1308
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:27,400
like this for about 15 seconds.
I had no idea how I wanted to

1309
01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:31,840
keep it there.
And I didn't feel a damn thing.

1310
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:33,480
And I put it down.
I said, well, that's too bad.

1311
01:13:33,480 --> 01:13:36,400
I was hoping that would, you
know, give me some kind of buzz

1312
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:38,640
or something.
But about a minute later, sure

1313
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:42,360
enough, I got a buzz.
And I was kind of buzzed for

1314
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:45,120
about an hour, two hours.
I was like very creative,

1315
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:48,080
energetic.
I felt really good and so I

1316
01:13:48,080 --> 01:13:50,720
said, OK, wait.
So anyway, we did the study and

1317
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:56,840
it came out in early 2013, the
first, the first study of, of

1318
01:13:56,840 --> 01:13:59,400
ultrasound on human mental
States and we called it

1319
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:03,960
transcranial ultrasound TUS,
which is also the airport code

1320
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:06,280
for Tucson.
Now other people have tried to,

1321
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:09,040
there's been a, a ton of work
since then.

1322
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:13,400
Neuroscientists love, love it
because you can focus the

1323
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:15,160
ultrasound on a particular brain
part.

1324
01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:18,880
So if you want to stimulate
posterior cingulate cortex or

1325
01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:23,000
this or that, you can do it.
The study I did was unfocused.

1326
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:25,680
It was scanning actually get the
whole brain and there's an

1327
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:30,960
advantage to that too.
So I then, and then in 2015,

1328
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:33,440
these people in Australia found
that it improved.

1329
01:14:33,480 --> 01:14:38,280
They had a model of Alzheimer's
in rats and they were trying to

1330
01:14:38,280 --> 01:14:40,880
test to get a drug, but it
didn't cross the blood brain

1331
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:43,320
barrier.
They want ultrasound at medium

1332
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:46,480
dose opens the blood brain
barrier and get drugs going to

1333
01:14:46,480 --> 01:14:49,800
cross.
And they, they had a control

1334
01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:51,960
group where they got the
ultrasound, but not the drugs.

1335
01:14:51,960 --> 01:14:54,840
And they got better from the
their Alzheimer's got better.

1336
01:14:55,360 --> 01:14:58,800
So they published this and said,
wow, that's, that's we should do

1337
01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:00,560
that.
And we actually did a pilot

1338
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:03,320
study and I'm trying to get a
study going and looks like we're

1339
01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:04,920
trying we're finally got going
to get it.

1340
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:07,800
But in the meantime, I just did
a literature amazing number of

1341
01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:10,280
studies have shown beneficial
effects of all.

1342
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:14,120
Well, it's not an over.
It's like maybe 5:00 to 10:00,

1343
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:15,960
but all of them are, are
beneficial.

1344
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:19,040
And one of them just, it's all
in the last couple years.

1345
01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:23,240
And one of them actually showed
reversal of cerebral atrophy

1346
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:24,840
that the brain actually grew
back.

1347
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:28,040
And the only way I can explain
that is that you're stimulating

1348
01:15:28,040 --> 01:15:30,320
the microtubules to re
polymerize and that would do it.

1349
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:36,240
So we're trying to, you know, I
think and why, why isn't

1350
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:38,120
everybody doing this?
Well, nobody's going to,

1351
01:15:38,160 --> 01:15:40,760
nobody's going to get rich with
this because you can use a

1352
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:45,800
handheld ultrasound device.
It costs 150 bucks as opposed to

1353
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:49,680
a drug company 40,000 a year.
So, you know, that's it.

1354
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:51,800
So we live in a town.
Where you can literally connect

1355
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:53,080
your cell phone to an
ultrasound.

1356
01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:56,000
Ultrasound literally from your
phone to the brand.

1357
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:57,600
So it would, it would be too
cost effective.

1358
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:03,560
Yeah, well, actually.
The butterfly device is a used

1359
01:16:03,560 --> 01:16:07,800
in like ambulances or emergency
room to quick ultrasound.

1360
01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:10,920
And it's just the probe and you,
you use your phone to, to read

1361
01:16:10,920 --> 01:16:12,880
it out.
So yeah, but you need the probe.

1362
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:15,680
So anyway, we're trying, we're
trying to get that study done

1363
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:19,640
because I, because my dream is
kind of like, you know, these

1364
01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:22,440
memory care centers where they
have like hundreds of room

1365
01:16:22,640 --> 01:16:25,840
patients in rooms would be to go
from room to room with, with

1366
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:28,600
their informed consent and the
cooperation of everybody, go

1367
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:31,720
from room to room and give
everybody ultrasound and maybe a

1368
01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:34,800
couple times they could come
back, you know, a couple times a

1369
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:36,040
day.
Try it.

1370
01:16:36,040 --> 01:16:39,800
And you know, from the anecdotal
report, Well, they're actually,

1371
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:41,920
they're more than anecdotal.
The reports I've seen so far,

1372
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:44,720
they do.
They do get better considering

1373
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:47,400
the.
Historical context of ORC or and

1374
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:50,800
the way people have perceived
it, critiqued it and the

1375
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:54,520
receptionist received.
I can tell how passionate you

1376
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:57,560
are about it at the moment.
What is the legacy you wish that

1377
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:01,720
this theory will leave in the
field of consciousness, and what

1378
01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:04,040
areas of research, except for
what you're currently doing and

1379
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:06,760
you can't tell us about, do you
feel people should branch out

1380
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:12,640
into and explore more?
Well, quantum.

1381
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:14,760
Biology in general, I think
there's going to be a lot more

1382
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:16,520
things having to do with quantum
biology.

1383
01:17:18,120 --> 01:17:21,320
I wanted to like, you know, I
guess my main legacy would be

1384
01:17:21,440 --> 01:17:25,160
anaesthesia because I went into
this because of my first

1385
01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:27,480
chairman, Bernal Brown.
I told you that I, I was kind of

1386
01:17:27,480 --> 01:17:29,080
lost.
I didn't know what, what I

1387
01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:30,680
wanted to do.
But I moved to Tucson and I was

1388
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:33,520
going to do be a neurologist and
I, I went over to the pain

1389
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:36,360
clinic.
Somebody I, I, I was doing an

1390
01:17:36,360 --> 01:17:38,760
internship and I'm
anesthesiologist.

1391
01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:41,640
I talked to you about this.
He said you, you go talk, don't

1392
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:43,600
talk to me since I have no idea
what you're talking about.

1393
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:45,920
Go, go talk to Bernal.
He's the chair of anesthesia,

1394
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:49,160
the brand new medical school.
I said, OK, he said go, go to

1395
01:17:49,160 --> 01:17:51,160
his pain clinic, you know, a
chance to talk to you.

1396
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:53,960
So I did and I hung out with him
and we talked about pain and

1397
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:55,040
stuff 'cause I didn't
understand.

1398
01:17:55,360 --> 01:17:57,840
And, and I told him about
consciousness and microtubules.

1399
01:17:57,840 --> 01:17:59,600
And he was, he was really
interested.

1400
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:02,680
So he got me into it.
He handed me this paper about I,

1401
01:18:02,920 --> 01:18:04,720
I told you about anesthesia,
microtubules.

1402
01:18:05,440 --> 01:18:09,960
And he said figure out how
anesthesia works.

1403
01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:13,520
You know that, you know, that
would come from this department

1404
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:15,320
that would be great and the
field of anesthesiology.

1405
01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:20,320
So, but it's, it's caused me to
think about it because when I, I

1406
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:22,400
first talked about anesthesia,
the way to understand

1407
01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:25,360
consciousness with Christophe,
it was actually, I said,

1408
01:18:25,360 --> 01:18:28,560
Christophe, we should try to
figure out how despite our

1409
01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:30,080
arguments, we're actually
friends.

1410
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:32,400
Same with Jade.
I love Dave, I love both those

1411
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:34,120
guys, although I'm kind of
pissed at both of them at the

1412
01:18:34,160 --> 01:18:39,000
moment.
But he's I said we got to figure

1413
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:43,720
out how anesthesia works and he
said it's.

1414
01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:46,280
Too nonspecific.
It binds all over the body to

1415
01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:48,320
everywhere.
It's in fat stores, it's in

1416
01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:50,400
proteins, it's in membranes,
it's in lipid.

1417
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:51,880
It's everywhere.
How's that going?

1418
01:18:52,280 --> 01:18:53,720
I said, yeah, but it's highly
selective.

1419
01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:56,160
It only effects consciousness
and nothing else.

1420
01:18:56,840 --> 01:18:59,320
And he said, yeah, but it's too
nonspecific.

1421
01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:00,600
So that's, that's where it
ended.

1422
01:19:01,080 --> 01:19:03,720
But it was a valid objection.
How do you that's the paradox.

1423
01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:06,480
And about a few months ago,
actually, it was.

1424
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:09,320
Well, no, it's anyway not long
ago.

1425
01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:12,680
I think I figured it out.
The anesthesia binds for these

1426
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:14,960
non specific quantum forces.
They go and they bind to

1427
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:16,920
everything and yet the only
thing they're affecting is

1428
01:19:16,920 --> 01:19:18,160
consciousness.
Why?

1429
01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:22,040
The answer is only consciousness
has highly organized or

1430
01:19:22,040 --> 01:19:25,680
orchestrated quantum processes.
They're totally they're totally

1431
01:19:25,680 --> 01:19:27,720
In Sync.
All the other ones are all

1432
01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:29,800
random.
So the anesthesia comes in and

1433
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:33,840
randomizes and turns and and and
only effects consciousness,

1434
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:37,280
which has this highly organized,
orchestrated quantum processes.

1435
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:39,400
Everything else is already
randomized.

1436
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:41,920
So you can't nothing happens.
It's already random.

1437
01:19:42,280 --> 01:19:44,600
So I think that's the answer.
And I told Christophe that he

1438
01:19:44,600 --> 01:19:48,040
goes, oh, OK, you, you.
Didn't mention how you got to

1439
01:19:48,040 --> 01:19:49,880
that cartoon you're on, by the
way.

1440
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:53,440
Well, it was based.
It was based.

1441
01:19:53,440 --> 01:19:58,320
On It was based on Christophe's
slide at the 1994 conference.

1442
01:19:58,520 --> 01:20:01,280
It didn't come to me until after
the.

1443
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:05,640
This stupid thing.
And when he goes, yeah, we don't

1444
01:20:05,640 --> 01:20:07,720
have a, we don't have a neural
Carlo conscious when he could,

1445
01:20:08,080 --> 01:20:11,560
he could have said that our, our
experiment worked, you know, and

1446
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:15,040
he didn't.
And, and Dave said that we were

1447
01:20:15,040 --> 01:20:20,600
too fringy for the ASC meeting
and, and I said, you know, I

1448
01:20:20,600 --> 01:20:21,640
think it was in a tweet or
something.

1449
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:22,880
He just came to me.
I said, well, you're just

1450
01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:27,240
pushing these empty, you know,
monotonic, you know, one

1451
01:20:27,240 --> 01:20:33,280
frequency, empty, inanimate
cartoon neurons, and it's stuck.

1452
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:36,240
Yeah.
I love it when you when you

1453
01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:38,400
interact with people on X and
you just refer to it.

1454
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:40,280
Tell me more about your cartoon
neurons.

1455
01:20:40,600 --> 01:20:41,960
It's it's the best thing to
watch.

1456
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:46,400
Well, I do have to explain what.
I mean by it.

1457
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:47,960
And I appreciate that.
Yeah.

1458
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:51,960
I think I'm pretty.
Do you follow me on Twitter?

1459
01:20:52,000 --> 01:20:53,440
Yeah.
Love it.

1460
01:20:53,440 --> 01:20:54,240
I love it.
I enjoy.

1461
01:20:54,240 --> 01:20:58,760
Your I enjoy your our defenses,
yeah.

1462
01:20:58,760 --> 01:21:01,160
I can get pretty.
Pretty defensive actually.

1463
01:21:01,680 --> 01:21:04,880
If I I try to offensive about
it, I try to be open and and try

1464
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:08,760
to be good humored and and and
not too sarcastic.

1465
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:10,240
Yeah.
No, no, it's and.

1466
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:12,360
And I think look, when, when
you're that passionate about

1467
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:15,440
something, I, it, it makes sense
that you would do this.

1468
01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:19,000
I, I often think when I started
this podcast, when I, I had a

1469
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:21,040
list of names of all the people
I wanted to have on the show

1470
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:23,600
when I first started.
And I've been fortunate enough

1471
01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:26,520
to take them off 1 by 1.
And the list has grown over

1472
01:21:26,520 --> 01:21:28,400
time.
But there was an initial group

1473
01:21:28,400 --> 01:21:30,080
of names and you were one of
those names.

1474
01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:33,240
Because I see you and the way
you've contributed to this field

1475
01:21:33,240 --> 01:21:35,760
with the signs of consciousness
conference and, and all the

1476
01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:38,120
things that have happened
because of that conference and

1477
01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:39,640
because of all the things you've
done in the field.

1478
01:21:39,800 --> 01:21:42,440
And then obviously with yourself
and Roger and all the work

1479
01:21:42,440 --> 01:21:45,320
you've done, it's pretty cool
that I get to take these names

1480
01:21:45,320 --> 01:21:47,480
off this list.
So it, it, for me, it's pretty

1481
01:21:47,480 --> 01:21:49,120
much a privilege to even chat to
you guys.

1482
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:53,360
So it it's it's like watching
these in my favorite celebrities

1483
01:21:53,720 --> 01:21:56,880
battle it out in the theories of
consciousness world.

1484
01:21:57,920 --> 01:21:59,120
Well, thank you, Dave.
Yeah.

1485
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:02,440
No, it's it's wonderful.
Tell me, Stuart, for this next

1486
01:22:02,440 --> 01:22:05,360
conference you, you mentioned
Federico, Donald, all these guys

1487
01:22:05,360 --> 01:22:07,440
coming together.
Tell tell me more about that.

1488
01:22:09,320 --> 01:22:10,640
Well, I thought it was, I
thought.

1489
01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:13,680
It was, well, first of all, the
conference in Barcelona.

1490
01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:17,360
And as luck would have it, bad
luck actually the the ASC

1491
01:22:17,360 --> 01:22:21,400
conference at the same time in
in Greece, which is unfair.

1492
01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:23,320
If they've been a week or two
apart, you could have gone to

1493
01:22:23,320 --> 01:22:25,400
both.
And even if I'm unwelcome there,

1494
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:28,040
I still might have gone because
I've been to Crete actually love

1495
01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:30,520
the place.
But anyway.

1496
01:22:30,960 --> 01:22:36,280
But I decided that cartoon
neurons have had their chance,

1497
01:22:37,080 --> 01:22:40,920
you know?
Let's do you.

1498
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:44,120
Know, let's let's embrace the,
the connection to the universe,

1499
01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:49,080
the people I'm talking about,
Federico talks about it, Don and

1500
01:22:49,080 --> 01:22:53,000
people you mentioned, but also
others and in different ways.

1501
01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:54,840
So that's the main theme of the
conference.

1502
01:22:55,840 --> 01:22:58,080
And we also have some really
good neuroscience.

1503
01:22:58,080 --> 01:23:02,200
We have Earl Miller and Matthew
Larkin and Sabine Castner and

1504
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:07,520
then others talking about
anesthesia and psychedelics and

1505
01:23:08,240 --> 01:23:12,200
and ultrasound and Jay Sangwani
is going to talk about

1506
01:23:12,200 --> 01:23:13,840
ultrasound and and Julio
Ruffini.

1507
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:15,240
So we have a pretty good
neuroscience too.

1508
01:23:15,240 --> 01:23:18,960
And I think the nurse we go into
neuroscience more so than ASSE

1509
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:22,800
'cause they don't, I don't know
if it's because they dislike me

1510
01:23:22,800 --> 01:23:24,800
so much, but they'll they'll
stick to the cartoon neurons.

1511
01:23:24,800 --> 01:23:27,920
I wouldn't even go there,
although actually I think

1512
01:23:27,920 --> 01:23:29,640
there's well, I better not say
anything.

1513
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:32,960
I don't want to jinx it, never
mind, but any anyway.

1514
01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:39,160
So the the connection between
quantum, quantum brain biology

1515
01:23:39,160 --> 01:23:42,760
and and fundamental physics
cosmology.

1516
01:23:44,400 --> 01:23:51,280
So that that's a major theme.
And also from local interest

1517
01:23:51,960 --> 01:23:55,840
parapsychology when I was there
for the so we're combining with

1518
01:23:55,840 --> 01:23:59,800
this festival of consciousness
and they had this these kids who

1519
01:23:59,800 --> 01:24:02,600
do The Who, who have apparently
this telepathy.

1520
01:24:02,800 --> 01:24:04,920
They're on the telepathy tapes
and all that.

1521
01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:07,280
And I saw them in a different
conference I was at.

1522
01:24:07,280 --> 01:24:11,240
And anyway, we're going to so we
we're having a session on that

1523
01:24:11,600 --> 01:24:16,880
because if Orko R is correct,
then non locality is possible

1524
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:20,680
and ESP is, is possible.
And I think, you know, the

1525
01:24:20,720 --> 01:24:24,680
evidence for parapsychology is
actually pretty damn good.

1526
01:24:24,760 --> 01:24:27,240
I mean, it's ridiculed.
Well, it's impossible.

1527
01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:28,800
It can't be right.
You know, you can't believe that

1528
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:31,200
it's impossible.
It's not impossible if it's if

1529
01:24:31,200 --> 01:24:32,640
it's the same thing with
afterlife.

1530
01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:35,240
It's not impossible if you have
quantum nonlocality.

1531
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:42,360
So there's that.
And then the other kind of

1532
01:24:43,480 --> 01:24:48,520
somewhat risky area, I don't
think it's that risky is, is

1533
01:24:48,520 --> 01:24:53,520
these UUAPS and UFOs and what
the hell they are and whether

1534
01:24:53,520 --> 01:24:58,080
they're conscious or not.
And so I, I, you know, these,

1535
01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:01,400
the ones that I found the most
interesting are these plasmoids.

1536
01:25:01,400 --> 01:25:03,640
They're, they're kind of like a
ball ball lightning.

1537
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:08,200
And they do purposeful things.
And we're gonna, we're gonna

1538
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:12,400
have some talks about that.
And the, I actually did an

1539
01:25:12,400 --> 01:25:15,560
experiment in the 80s on, on
Curlian photography and showed

1540
01:25:15,560 --> 01:25:19,520
that anesthesia inhibits plasma
directly, whether you have

1541
01:25:19,520 --> 01:25:22,440
biology in the picture or not,
just the actual plasma cone.

1542
01:25:22,960 --> 01:25:26,000
And so I don't know if that
tells us that they could, they

1543
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:29,040
could be conscious.
So anyway, and we have some,

1544
01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:32,680
some other experts on that.
And, and I think it's a really

1545
01:25:32,680 --> 01:25:36,040
hot area.
And then, you know, Federico, as

1546
01:25:36,040 --> 01:25:37,840
you say, and who am I
forgetting?

1547
01:25:39,160 --> 01:25:40,680
You said Don.
Was one of them.

1548
01:25:43,120 --> 01:25:44,160
Who else?
Shalom.

1549
01:25:45,200 --> 01:25:50,000
Let's.
On this channel, I've chatted to

1550
01:25:50,000 --> 01:25:51,800
Don.
I think over over three times

1551
01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:55,160
I've chatted to Federico once
they their idealist theory of

1552
01:25:55,160 --> 01:25:57,360
consciousness.
Do you feel that now that you're

1553
01:25:57,360 --> 01:26:00,440
more open to your well, now that
you've explored your quantum

1554
01:26:00,440 --> 01:26:02,840
theory of consciousness for so
long, that you're more open to

1555
01:26:02,840 --> 01:26:07,480
idealist philosophies?
Not really.

1556
01:26:07,480 --> 01:26:10,480
I mean I.
I, I debate this with Deepak all

1557
01:26:10,480 --> 01:26:13,200
the time.
And because I, I believe in, I

1558
01:26:13,200 --> 01:26:18,360
believe in reality, I believe
in, in matter, you know, and I

1559
01:26:18,360 --> 01:26:21,560
think there's a classical world
and then there's a quantum world

1560
01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:24,800
and consciousness is on the edge
between them.

1561
01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:27,520
And I kind of use, sometimes use
the yin Yang with the quantum

1562
01:26:27,520 --> 01:26:29,560
and the classical and Constance
on the edge.

1563
01:26:29,600 --> 01:26:34,320
And actually I got that idea
from somebody years ago who told

1564
01:26:34,320 --> 01:26:36,720
me about a lot.
It's from the Kabbalah actually,

1565
01:26:36,720 --> 01:26:39,960
that there's 2 worlds and
consciousness dances on the edge

1566
01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:42,240
between the two.
I always like that.

1567
01:26:42,240 --> 01:26:45,240
So it, it's kind of a, it's on
the boundary between and that's

1568
01:26:45,240 --> 01:26:48,160
what collapsed the wave function
is it's a, it's on the boundary

1569
01:26:48,160 --> 01:26:51,000
between quantum and classical.
Yeah, I actually spoke to Hyman.

1570
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:55,520
Shipper about the Kabbalah and
consciousness and then there was

1571
01:26:55,520 --> 01:26:58,600
some fascinating insights that
come from that I was I was very

1572
01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:01,600
surprised that someone not very
familiar with the concept at all

1573
01:27:01,960 --> 01:27:05,160
it's very intriguing how many
ancient cultures had quite a lot

1574
01:27:05,160 --> 01:27:07,880
to say about these concepts yeah
and a lot of.

1575
01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:11,040
Them are very, very similar,
very, very common and

1576
01:27:11,560 --> 01:27:13,640
particularly when you know,
describes the near death and how

1577
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:15,760
about experiences and and that
sort of stuff.

1578
01:27:16,360 --> 01:27:19,440
Astral projection remote.
It could be remote viewing.

1579
01:27:20,720 --> 01:27:22,840
Yeah, I think.
Sorry, continue.

1580
01:27:23,920 --> 01:27:26,920
No, I think, I think.
All of this will turn out to be

1581
01:27:27,280 --> 01:27:29,400
potentially true.
It's it's it's it's quite.

1582
01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:31,880
Fascinating territory at this
point because a lot of people

1583
01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:35,280
who were hard materialists, very
much scientific atheists, non

1584
01:27:35,280 --> 01:27:40,520
believers are slowly coming into
this quantum understanding and,

1585
01:27:41,320 --> 01:27:44,080
and, and then everything sort of
just starts afresh.

1586
01:27:44,080 --> 01:27:46,040
It's almost like you have to
clean the slate and start

1587
01:27:46,320 --> 01:27:49,840
readjusting your world views in
a way that becomes a little bit

1588
01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:51,880
more agnostic because you
realize that you actually don't

1589
01:27:51,880 --> 01:27:53,440
really know as much as you
thought you did.

1590
01:27:56,280 --> 01:27:57,920
Yeah.
And then there's the the advent

1591
01:27:57,920 --> 01:27:59,880
of quantum computer.
So if you're if you're a

1592
01:28:00,080 --> 01:28:03,040
computationalist and believe
that you know the brain's just a

1593
01:28:03,040 --> 01:28:05,280
classical computer, and now you
find out now the quantum

1594
01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:07,080
computers are much better in
classic computers, then you're

1595
01:28:07,080 --> 01:28:08,640
going to want the brain to be a
quantum computer.

1596
01:28:08,640 --> 01:28:11,240
And then you have to deal with
the same crap you've given us,

1597
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:14,360
so we'll see what happens.
Yeah, it's like a recursive

1598
01:28:14,360 --> 01:28:14,960
cycle.
It's an.

1599
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:17,040
Infinite loop and it's just
going to keep going and going.

1600
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:19,840
It will never stop.
In a sense, yeah.

1601
01:28:20,200 --> 01:28:23,440
Well, we'll see that.
You know, that brings up when

1602
01:28:23,440 --> 01:28:25,600
did it start?
And you know, Roger's other

1603
01:28:25,600 --> 01:28:29,640
great idea is CCC, that The Big
Bang was preceded by another

1604
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:31,560
eon, which had another eon
before that.

1605
01:28:32,320 --> 01:28:35,320
So I was at AI was at this
festival in in England.

1606
01:28:35,320 --> 01:28:39,200
And Scott Aronson, you know,
Scott Aronson, you know who he

1607
01:28:39,200 --> 01:28:42,880
is?
Oh, OK, he's he's a big shot in

1608
01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:47,440
quantum computing.
Anyway, what were we talking

1609
01:28:47,440 --> 01:28:49,840
about?
Oh I, I mentioned this going.

1610
01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:55,120
Back and back in time is the.
Solution to the the big Big Bang

1611
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:58,240
problem of like everything all
at once from nothing, which is

1612
01:28:58,240 --> 01:29:02,680
kind of hard to explain and
realizing that you still have to

1613
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:05,000
explain where it where it all.
He said, yeah, but then you have

1614
01:29:05,000 --> 01:29:07,080
you have to go all the way back
and you have to deal with that.

1615
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:11,440
And I said just totally spur of
the moment, I never thought this

1616
01:29:11,440 --> 01:29:13,360
slop in my life.
I said, maybe.

1617
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:15,880
I said maybe if you go back far
enough, you, you wind up in the

1618
01:29:15,880 --> 01:29:18,960
future.
And he said, well, then you have

1619
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:20,080
to do.
And then he realized he was

1620
01:29:20,080 --> 01:29:23,520
playing into my narrative.
So I don't know I that just I,

1621
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:26,120
I, I have no idea where that
idea came from, but maybe it's

1622
01:29:26,120 --> 01:29:29,320
true at this point, as a, as an.
Astrobiologist as well, trying

1623
01:29:29,320 --> 01:29:32,200
to figure out this concept of
life not on earth.

1624
01:29:33,240 --> 01:29:38,200
How does OOOR play into this and
how are you going through this

1625
01:29:38,440 --> 01:29:41,400
new part of your career?
I would say, well, relatively,

1626
01:29:41,400 --> 01:29:43,520
yeah, it's fantastic.
I'm really enjoying.

1627
01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:47,240
Myself, it keeps me going, you
know, I'm retired now and well,

1628
01:29:47,240 --> 01:29:49,120
other than doing doing this, I
mean, I don't go to the hospital

1629
01:29:49,120 --> 01:29:51,760
anymore.
And so I got to stay.

1630
01:29:51,760 --> 01:29:54,960
I got to keep my mind active and
this does it and I enjoy it.

1631
01:29:54,960 --> 01:29:57,600
I, you know, I'd be doing it,
I'd be, I'd be doing it for

1632
01:29:57,600 --> 01:29:58,960
free.
I mean, I just love it.

1633
01:29:59,560 --> 01:30:00,920
It's the most interesting thing
in the world.

1634
01:30:00,920 --> 01:30:05,480
So yeah, keep going.
You've contributed so much.

1635
01:30:05,480 --> 01:30:09,400
Already and now you're obviously
doing more the science of

1636
01:30:09,400 --> 01:30:11,080
consciousness conference.
I'm assuming that's going to

1637
01:30:11,080 --> 01:30:14,480
keep going at what do you see
happening in the next 10 years,

1638
01:30:14,480 --> 01:30:15,680
Stuart?
What do you think is going to be

1639
01:30:15,680 --> 01:30:18,200
happening in the, in the in the
science of consciousness in the

1640
01:30:18,200 --> 01:30:21,800
future?
Good question.

1641
01:30:21,800 --> 01:30:23,680
I I.
Hope it keeps going in our way.

1642
01:30:23,680 --> 01:30:27,520
I I'm, I'm personally, you know,
have to think about passing it

1643
01:30:27,520 --> 01:30:30,400
on and, and who's going to take
over what I've been doing.

1644
01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:34,440
And so I'm making plans for that
with, with some good friends and

1645
01:30:34,440 --> 01:30:39,840
colleagues, Dante Jay, Jay
Sanguinetti, Tom Bever, people

1646
01:30:39,840 --> 01:30:41,920
at the university, people
elsewhere.

1647
01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:44,920
So we have some some possible
contingency plans about the

1648
01:30:44,920 --> 01:30:48,440
center.
And but we hope the conference

1649
01:30:48,440 --> 01:30:54,520
continues and, you know, we hope
to put her put it on some firm

1650
01:30:54,520 --> 01:30:56,280
standing.
So it'll just keep going,

1651
01:30:56,560 --> 01:31:00,120
becoming it somewhat recent,
because I think we're going to

1652
01:31:00,120 --> 01:31:01,480
keep learning, learning more and
more.

1653
01:31:01,480 --> 01:31:04,480
And it's not going to fall into
the, you know, the brain is a

1654
01:31:04,720 --> 01:31:06,000
complex computer, simple
neurons.

1655
01:31:06,040 --> 01:31:09,160
I I don't think that's, I mean,
otherwise, how do you explain a

1656
01:31:09,160 --> 01:31:11,840
paramecium that swims around,
finds food, finds a maid, has

1657
01:31:11,840 --> 01:31:15,040
sex and an amoeba, which is 1
cell that can solve the

1658
01:31:15,040 --> 01:31:19,680
traveling salesman problem with
its microtubules reaching out in

1659
01:31:19,680 --> 01:31:23,640
all these different directions.
So I'm, I, I think and I hope

1660
01:31:23,640 --> 01:31:26,120
that microtubules will be
rediscovered.

1661
01:31:26,320 --> 01:31:29,360
Maybe actually when I'm gone,
it'll be a good thing for

1662
01:31:29,360 --> 01:31:33,680
microtubules because I think I
probably annoyed so many people

1663
01:31:34,280 --> 01:31:37,480
and and actually Dave Chalmers
kind of revealed this in

1664
01:31:38,000 --> 01:31:42,720
unintentionally that they don't,
they couldn't stomach it if I

1665
01:31:42,720 --> 01:31:45,920
was right because of me
personally, because I, I, I tend

1666
01:31:45,960 --> 01:31:49,880
to, you know, well, you know how
yeah, you're like the

1667
01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:51,040
microtubule.
Mascot.

1668
01:31:53,200 --> 01:31:58,640
OK, but I mean that in the.
Best and the most in a with high

1669
01:31:58,640 --> 01:32:01,080
praise I because I appreciate
the work and I love it.

1670
01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:04,280
How about?
Microtubular Maestro.

1671
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:05,840
OK, that's much better.
I think that.

1672
01:32:05,840 --> 01:32:09,160
That's more that that could be a
thumbnail for the for a clip I

1673
01:32:09,160 --> 01:32:10,640
make for this clip for this
video.

1674
01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:16,560
Microtubular maestro in motion.
Tell me, Stuart, with one thing

1675
01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:20,280
I wanted to ask that I forgot to
ask you earlier was when, when

1676
01:32:20,440 --> 01:32:23,520
when you got to work with Sir
Roger Penrose and when he

1677
01:32:23,520 --> 01:32:25,360
appreciated the work you
contributed to the field.

1678
01:32:25,360 --> 01:32:26,840
How was that for you?
Because that must be super

1679
01:32:26,840 --> 01:32:29,480
exciting as as someone who
probably looked up to him

1680
01:32:29,480 --> 01:32:32,520
growing up.
Well, I didn't really know about

1681
01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:37,040
him.
Growing up until, until, you

1682
01:32:37,040 --> 01:32:39,360
know, I started, I read his
book.

1683
01:32:39,440 --> 01:32:42,120
I, I, I recognized his name, but
I didn't really know about him.

1684
01:32:42,120 --> 01:32:45,040
I mean, I'm not a physicist,
although I love physics.

1685
01:32:45,040 --> 01:32:47,040
And if I hadn't gotten to
medical school, I would have

1686
01:32:47,040 --> 01:32:53,120
gone to physics grad school.
I had a but he, he, he's a total

1687
01:32:53,120 --> 01:32:55,880
gentleman.
He's very, he's very kind.

1688
01:32:55,880 --> 01:32:59,000
He's very gentle and he's very
soft spoken.

1689
01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:01,760
He can be, you know, if you
corner him, he'll, he'll bite

1690
01:33:01,760 --> 01:33:06,680
back, but in a, in a kind of a
stiff upper lip, British type of

1691
01:33:06,680 --> 01:33:09,680
way.
I wish I was more like him in

1692
01:33:09,680 --> 01:33:11,960
that way, the way he handles
himself, handles himself with

1693
01:33:11,960 --> 01:33:14,520
people.
I, I tend to, you know, lose my

1694
01:33:14,520 --> 01:33:16,960
temper Sometime I, I'm kind of,
I kind of react.

1695
01:33:16,960 --> 01:33:19,920
I, I kind of blame it Sometime
I, I'm spending my life in the

1696
01:33:19,920 --> 01:33:21,880
operating room where, you know,
something happens.

1697
01:33:21,880 --> 01:33:23,640
You, you can't mess around.
You got to take care of it like

1698
01:33:23,640 --> 01:33:27,520
now and you can't put up with
bullshit and let's just get this

1699
01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:30,480
job done.
And and so that's kind of my

1700
01:33:30,480 --> 01:33:34,120
yes, kind of how I I don't know
if that's that explains it, but

1701
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:35,480
I think it does, especially as
an.

1702
01:33:35,480 --> 01:33:37,800
Anesthesiologist.
If you in the operating theater,

1703
01:33:37,800 --> 01:33:41,840
you often take that first lead
commander role and and you have

1704
01:33:41,840 --> 01:33:43,920
to be quite strict.
So it makes sense from my

1705
01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:45,280
perspective, at least as a
doctor.

1706
01:33:45,280 --> 01:33:47,360
So I I can see where that comes
from.

1707
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:50,360
Yeah, but but.
But overall?

1708
01:33:50,360 --> 01:33:53,560
I think that the work you guys
are doing is it's fantastic and,

1709
01:33:53,920 --> 01:33:56,000
and more So what you've done in
the past.

1710
01:33:56,000 --> 01:33:58,520
I mean the hard problem of
consciousness, that infamous

1711
01:33:58,520 --> 01:34:00,480
line comes from your, your
conference.

1712
01:34:00,480 --> 01:34:03,400
This is you've laid out a legacy
that I think will will never be

1713
01:34:03,400 --> 01:34:05,360
forgotten.
If there's anything I can do

1714
01:34:05,360 --> 01:34:07,360
with regards to the conference
and by the way, am I, am I

1715
01:34:07,360 --> 01:34:12,120
invited to, do I get a special
invitation for for the

1716
01:34:12,120 --> 01:34:14,600
conference all the time?
Yeah, OK.

1717
01:34:15,480 --> 01:34:19,320
You can plug it on your on your
podcast.

1718
01:34:19,760 --> 01:34:22,160
I definitely will.
Dates.

1719
01:34:22,200 --> 01:34:24,480
Everything I'll put a.
Link, I'll try and get get

1720
01:34:24,480 --> 01:34:26,960
everyone to to come through.
I mean, this podcast is pretty

1721
01:34:26,960 --> 01:34:28,960
much dedicated to the type of
work you're doing.

1722
01:34:28,960 --> 01:34:31,680
So this is this is in that niche
for you.

1723
01:34:32,920 --> 01:34:33,760
Yeah.
Well, thank you.

1724
01:34:33,920 --> 01:34:34,360
Thank you.
Yeah.

1725
01:34:34,360 --> 01:34:36,360
Thanks for doing, Stuart.
When is the conference?

1726
01:34:36,360 --> 01:34:38,600
Exactly.
Date OK.

1727
01:34:38,920 --> 01:34:44,440
July. 6th through 11th and it's
immediately followed by the

1728
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:46,160
that.
That's the science of

1729
01:34:46,160 --> 01:34:49,760
consciousness in Barcelona.
It's immediately followed by

1730
01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:52,960
11th through 13th, the festival,
Festival of Consciousness, which

1731
01:34:52,960 --> 01:34:57,880
is run by our colleague Javi
Ganesta, basically next door.

1732
01:34:57,880 --> 01:35:01,400
So the same hotel.
And so you could come for both

1733
01:35:01,440 --> 01:35:04,320
and I think the registration
covers covers both.

1734
01:35:04,720 --> 01:35:06,720
The festival is more
experiential.

1735
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:10,360
It's, it's in more of a, it's in
a big bigger area with a lot of,

1736
01:35:10,960 --> 01:35:14,200
you know, dancing and, and yoga
and all that kind of stuff.

1737
01:35:14,200 --> 01:35:16,920
We're, we're more, more more
scientific, although we do have

1738
01:35:16,920 --> 01:35:21,320
experiential sessions.
And like I said, we have, you

1739
01:35:21,320 --> 01:35:23,000
know, a lot of physicists, We
have a lot of people talking

1740
01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:28,120
about the idealist spiritual
approach like Deepak, Federico,

1741
01:35:28,440 --> 01:35:33,240
Regine and we got the guys
talking about monitoring.

1742
01:35:33,320 --> 01:35:36,560
We have a, a special, a workshop
on the varieties of brain

1743
01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:40,440
computer interface of different
ways to interact between the

1744
01:35:40,440 --> 01:35:43,800
brain, you know, electrical, you
know, both in and out.

1745
01:35:43,800 --> 01:35:49,440
So TMS but also ultrasound and
megahertz EEG and which I think

1746
01:35:49,440 --> 01:35:53,200
will will will be more and more
important we have.

1747
01:35:53,560 --> 01:35:58,480
So all the workshops are on
Sunday the 6th and then the

1748
01:35:58,920 --> 01:36:04,360
plenary start Monday through
through Friday morning and then

1749
01:36:04,360 --> 01:36:09,400
Friday afternoon the festival
starts and we go next door and

1750
01:36:09,400 --> 01:36:11,640
the parties.
Thursday night we're going to do

1751
01:36:11,640 --> 01:36:14,040
the the same kind of party they
had, which is outdoors.

1752
01:36:14,040 --> 01:36:16,600
It's the whole, everything's
right on the beach, just a

1753
01:36:16,600 --> 01:36:18,760
little bit away from the beach.
So you got a nice breeze and

1754
01:36:18,760 --> 01:36:22,560
there's beautiful outdoor areas
and food trucks and dancing and

1755
01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:27,160
bars and that'll be the party
and the poetry slam and zombie

1756
01:36:27,160 --> 01:36:29,800
Blues that we always do.
That sounds absolutely awesome.

1757
01:36:29,840 --> 01:36:32,480
Stuart, thank you so much for
your time and once again, it's

1758
01:36:32,480 --> 01:36:34,440
been a privilege and honest to
chat to.

1759
01:36:34,440 --> 01:36:37,040
You've look been looking up to
your work and following your

1760
01:36:37,040 --> 01:36:38,960
journey for quite some time.
So it's been an absolute honor

1761
01:36:38,960 --> 01:36:40,000
for me.
Thank you so much.

1762
01:36:40,800 --> 01:36:42,000
Thank you, Dev.
I appreciate it very.

1763
01:36:42,000 --> 01:36:43,360
Much hey to be on.