Stephen Law: Could God be Evil? Belief in the Supernatural & The Evil God Challenge

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Stephen My my first question to
you is what is your

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understanding of the mind body
problem?

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You've spent so many years in
the philosophy field.

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I think that you'll have a lot
to say on this topic.

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What are your thoughts on that?
Well, I I don't claim to be a

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sort of authority, particularly
on that on that particular

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problem, but I have spent some
time thinking about it and

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looking at certain arguments
concerning relationship between

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mind and body, and I've
published some papers on those.

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Well, I, I, I, I, I think this
is probably how many

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philosophers would go about
explaining the problem.

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We know that between our ears
there's a physical, highly

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complex object, your brain, and
we know that that is somehow

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causally involved with
mentality.

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We know that if we do certain
things to your brain that will

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affect what's going on in your
mind, and that things happening

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in your mind clearly are
accompanied by activity going on

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in your brain.
But are they actually one and

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the same thing?
And on the one hand, there's a

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pretty persuasive argument, I
think, for saying that the mind

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must be physical if everything
that happens physically can be

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accounted for physically.
Say, for example, this movement

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of my hand has a physical
'cause, even my muscles, which

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has a physical cause, movement
of my in my nervous system, and

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so on.
We we always seem to find

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another physical 'cause we don't
seem to run out at any point.

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So it seems that what's going on
physically can be accounted for

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just by reference to the
physical.

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And then the question is, well,
how?

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If minds are not themselves
physical, could they have any

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effect?
They're effectively locked out.

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So that's a consideration for
thinking that minds, given that

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minds do have physical effects,
but they just have to be somehow

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incorporated into the physical
story.

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But then, on the other hand,
there are reasons, according to

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some philosophers, reasons, to
think that the mind can't

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possibly be fully accommodated
within a purely physicalistic

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picture of what's going on.
And at that point they will

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often point to the sort of
private, subjective character of

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consciousness.
When I as a conscious being, I'm

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aware of, I'm introspectively
aware directly of various

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phenomena.
Sometimes they're called qualia,

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for example, the subjective
appearance, phenomenal

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appearance of colours, for
example, subjective pains, and

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so on.
And the suggestion is that no

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one else, necessarily no one
else, can access this private

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world.
People can access your brain by

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drilling a little hole in taking
a peek that that physical space

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is not, in principle, private.
Whereas it seems that minds have

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a kind of metaphysical privacy.
They are necessarily

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inaccessible to others.
And it doesn't matter how much

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you find out about what's going
on physically, you're never

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going to know what it's like to
experience red, or experience

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the world as the Bat does, or
whatever it might happen to be

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if you haven't had that
experience yourself.

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And certainly you can't access
another subject's experience to

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find out what it's like for
them.

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So it's a it's a strange and
magical Kingdom, metaphysically

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hidden.
Not physically hidden, but

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metaphysically hidden, to which
you have a kind of privileged

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access.
In fact, you're infallible, it

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seems, about what quality are
you're experiencing, perhaps,

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but it's necessarily unavailable
to others.

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And now that that strange secret
garden, it does begin to look

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problematic, how exactly do you
incorporate one of those within

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a purely sort of physicalistic
conception of of reality?

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It just doesn't seem to fit.
It doesn't seem to be the the

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sort of thing that you're ever
going to be able to build out of

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the flesh or whatever it might
happen to be.

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No matter how complicated you
make a system, it's not this

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magical Kingdom is suddenly or
even gradually going to somehow

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appear.
It's just not that sort of

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thing.
Also it seems too many

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philosophers and indeed non
philosophers.

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I think a lot of non
philosophers think about the

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mind in this kind of way.
And so I think that's really the

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problem.
On the face of it, armchair

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reflection seems to reveal this
magical Kingdom to which we have

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direct and immediate access.
In fact, nothing could be more

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obvious than that this Kingdom
exists.

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So I can doubt whether the
external world exists.

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Perhaps that I'm living in the
matrix, but I can't be mistaken

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about Qualia and what's going on
inside the subject of Kingdom.

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But now the problem is, well,
how do we incorporate one of

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those within a purely physical
framework?

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And that is, that is very
puzzling and perhaps it cannot

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be done.
Yeah, lots of then.

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How can minds have?
But then how can minds have any

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physical effects?
And you end up with

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epiphenomenalism or position
like that.

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So I think I I I think that's
probably a reasonable

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characterisation of the problem
that probably quite a few

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philosophers would agree with.
Maybe they would nitpick about

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bits and pieces, but the?
Reason why it's such an

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important question, I think, is
that our understanding of the

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mind body problem plays a huge
role when it comes to

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understanding, OK, what is
consciousness?

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Do we have free will?
I mean all these mechanistical

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physical mechanisms determining
our future outcomes and actions.

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Where where do you stand
regarding the free will debate?

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Well, you can, you know, you
could, you could admit that we

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are actually actually physical
beings who are physically

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determined or near as dammit you
know, as setting aside a bit of

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quantum indeterminacy, but
maintain that once you fully

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understand what free will really
involves, that's actually

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compatible with free will, that
kind of determinism.

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So there are compatibilists.
And then there are people who

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think that the truth of that
kind of determinism is

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incompatible with free will.
And then there are people who

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think that we should reject the
determinism in order to

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accommodate free will.
I tend to lean.

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I'm not.
I don't have a very strong view

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here.
I'm not like super, super

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committed to any particular
view.

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But I do lean towards the view
that we don't have free will in

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any substantive sense that would
make us morally responsible.

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You can water down what you mean
by free will in such a way that

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I will.
Then we can have it.

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But free will with a capital F
and a capital WI really have my

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doubts about whether you can
square that.

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What?
What?

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Why do you think so, Steve?
Well, yeah, I mean, on the face

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of it, there's a very good
argument for why you can't have

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free will if you are a
physically determined system

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such that everything that you do
could be predicted well in

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advance if you're doing it.
Indeed, centuries.

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Or hundreds of years, or
thousands of years, depending on

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just how much indeterminacy
we're going to suppose exists

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within the system.
It seems to me that if we are

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determined beings in that way,
then we don't get to freely

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choose how we behave, We don't
get to choose what choices we

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make, Even everything is fixed
in advance.

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But then I don't see how we can
be held morally responsible for

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anything that we do.
I I find it very difficult to

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see how we could be if if if
that's true.

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Now it may be that actually
these things can be squared.

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But currently I'm not.
I don't really, I don't really

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see how to do it.
It seems to me that we do lose

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moral responsibility if we
ultimately are nature's puppets,

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if you like.
There's a new book, Art by

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Forgotten, his name.
It's called Determined.

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Oh, Sapolsky.
Robert Sapolsky called

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Determined.
And I think he lays out a very

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good, strong argument against
free will in it and trying to

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bring out the moral
responsibility aspect, how we

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shouldn't be held morally
responsible, rejecting

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retributivism.
So there's a lot, there's a lot

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of people who are trying to work
on this now and they seem to be

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making some way.
Your work focused a lot during

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the years.
I remember there was a time

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where I watched you in
conversation with Richard

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Dawkins.
It was a while back.

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I can't remember, and I remember
how linked you became to

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religion and you had a lot of
debates online and I used to

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enjoy watching them for a for a
long time.

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So I think let's head into that
territory for a little bit.

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OK, yes, because I I'm certainly
no expert on, but I I asked.

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Questions just in general for
people.

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Yeah, as I say, I kind of lean
in the direction of, yeah, we

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probably don't have it, but
actually I think I might well be

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in a minority amongst
professional philosophers

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actually on on that one.
But yeah, yeah, don't I don't

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have sufficient expertise really
to pontiff on that fuel.

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No, it's fine.
I mean, in general, I'm just

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curious to know my guests
depending on those topics and

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then thereafter we move on to
the ones you do know or do work

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in quite a bit.
Let's start with the

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supernatural.
Why do people believe in the

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supernatural even within the
21st century 2023, Why?

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Why are we still having these
beliefs?

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Yeah, that's a great question,
really.

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It's not a philosophical
question.

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It's a psychological question,
isn't it?

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And I'm an armchair theorist,
not a psychologist.

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But there are psychological
theories about why people are

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drawn to certainly certain sorts
of supernatural belief, belief

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in invisible agency,
extraordinary agency that is at

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least partly hidden from us.
So agents have beliefs and

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desires on which they can more
or less rationally act.

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We are agents, obviously.
Cats and dogs and tigers.

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They're agents, we suppose.
But we also, around the world

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believe in other kinds of
agencies, such as fairies or

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kremlins or dead ancestors or
spirit beings, nature, spirits.

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It really is in the corner of
the globe where you won't find

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people believing in that kind of
extraordinary hidden agency.

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And that is that is a
fantastically fascinating fact

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about human beings that we are
so prone to.

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Those kind of beliefs are so
fascinating.

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Is it so, so noteworthy is it
that scientists are now

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attempting to explain why it is
that we are so prone to these

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kind of beliefs.
And of course one of the

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explanations which is offered in
particular by Professor Justin

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Barrett, the psychologist who is
a theist by the way.

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He he he's one of those who
evolutionary psychologist who is

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quite keen on the idea that
these kind of beliefs are a

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product of the way we have
evolved within our natural

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environment.
We needed to be super sensitive

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to other agents because they
would potentially take us out of

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the gene pool if they were
tigers, for example, or could be

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rivals, thieves, if there are
other human beings or could be a

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potential mate if there are
other human beings, and so on.

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So you want to really be super
sensitive to agency because

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that's going to help you survive
and reproduce.

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So the more sensitive you are to
agency, for the most part,

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that's going to be very much to
your advantage in terms of your

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ability to survive and
reproduce.

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So evolution will select for
that kind of sensitivity over

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sensitivity, in fact, because if
you're oversensitive to agency,

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that doesn't cost you very much.
If you think there's an agent

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there and there isn't, well
that's not so bad.

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But if you don't think there's
an agent there and there is,

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that could be a tiger.
Your your history at that point

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you're taken out of the gene
pool, you don't get to pass your

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genetic material on.
So we have arguably evolved to

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over detect agencies.
So there's that kind of

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explanation which is offered for
over detecting agency and then

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you can see it's quite a short
hop from there too.

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And that's why we tend to see
agency where there isn't any and

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in particular supernatural
agency.

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You know, you hear a rustle in
the bushes on the way home in

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the dark and your first thought
is there's someone there, it's

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involuntary, you can't turn it
off.

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That is your hyperactive agency
detecting device, as Justin

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Barrett calls it your HADD
switching on.

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It's involuntary, and even if
you can't see someone there, you

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might still be convinced that
there is someone there.

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And so you can see now how we
could end up believing in

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invisible agency quite easily as
a result of our evolutionary

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00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:06,680
history.
Now I don't.

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I don't endorse that
explanation.

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00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,440
But why is the explanation being
offered?

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00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:15,040
Because pretty much everyone
agrees that we are horribly

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prone to false positive beliefs
in invisible agents of an

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00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,160
extraordinary nature.
There's no doubt about that.

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00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,120
It's because we will agree about
that, that people are starting

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00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,080
to look for explanations for it,
yeah.

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Do you think so?
Because this, the argument could

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00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,480
go further to say that if you do
have these beliefs, at some

239
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,400
point they can become bad for
your evolutionary status.

240
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,880
I mean, at what point does this
belief tell you to do something

241
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,400
that is incorrect and will harm
you?

242
00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:44,120
So.
So where do we sort of draw the

243
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,240
line with that?
Well, there certainly.

244
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:48,240
Could be, yeah, that.
I mean, there could potentially

245
00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,480
be downsides to religious
beliefs, supernatural beliefs.

246
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:54,920
There are some very obvious
downsides.

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00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,800
If you think there's an agency
that's looking after you, or

248
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,880
guardian Angel perhaps, or
something like that, then you

249
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,240
may be prepared to take risks
that you really shouldn't be

250
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,360
taking and that could take you
out of gene.

251
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,600
On the other hand, it might it
might help boost your confidence

252
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,280
to make that leap that you
really need to make in order to

253
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,000
survive, and so increase the
probability that you'll make the

254
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,520
leap successfully.
So you can see how these kind of

255
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,600
beliefs could be to your
advantage, could be to your

256
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:25,560
disadvantage.
Barrett and psychologists like

257
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,680
him pointed a very obvious
advantages of being overly

258
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,880
sensitive to agency rather than
under sensitive to agency.

259
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,720
So he thinks he has an
explanation there for why we are

260
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,640
prone to this kind of mistake
Systematically.

261
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,280
We are prone to overdetect
agency.

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00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:45,760
We see agency where there is
none.

263
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,480
Over the years, what what have
you found to be some of the most

264
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:54,680
convincing arguments for God,
For the existence of a deity or

265
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,760
some sort?
Of a Well, I suppose, yeah.

266
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:07,120
I suppose that I think the kind
of fine tuning design arguments

267
00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:13,360
would probably be the ones where
I would focus my attention on if

268
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,160
I wanted to make a case for
gold.

269
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:18,680
Because, you know, there's some
interesting stuff in there.

270
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,480
I mean, admittedly, you know the
old fashioned Paley type

271
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:30,760
argument, which if you're not
familiar with it, So Paley would

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00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:36,120
would point to the eye and say
that's evidence for some kind of

273
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:40,600
designer.
Same way that you would find a

274
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,400
watch on a beach, you wouldn't
assume that the beach that the

275
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,520
watch had just appeared
spontaneously as a result of the

276
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,040
activity of the the waves and
the wind and so on.

277
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,280
You would quite reasonably
conclude that there was some

278
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,200
intelligence behind it.
Why?

279
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,560
Well, because it has a function
telling the time, and it's so

280
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,960
exquisitely engineered to
perform that function.

281
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,920
So similarly then the eye has a
function to allow the creature

282
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,640
attached to it to sea, and it's
exquisitely engineered to

283
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,640
fulfill that function.
And so by analogy, then, if it's

284
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,760
reasonable to suppose the watch
has a designer, then it's

285
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,960
reasonable to suppose that the
OA has a designer too, was the

286
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,079
sort of old style design
argument.

287
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,520
But then, of course, we've along
came Darwin and the theory of

288
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,560
natural selection, Evolution by
natural selection.

289
00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,320
And now we have a pure, you
know, now we have a naturalistic

290
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,680
account of how something like
the eye could appear without the

291
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,440
intervention of any kind of
cosmic designer.

292
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,520
So I don't think that that
particular style of argument is

293
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,240
very convincing.
Another kind of argument that

294
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,680
people sometimes run is but look
at the look at the planet it's

295
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,320
got, it's just the right
temperature, it's got just the

296
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,240
right amount of water, just the
right kind of food for us to

297
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,360
eat.
Clearly, it's been designed for

298
00:17:58,360 --> 00:18:03,640
us to have us in it.
And a very, there was a very

299
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:08,760
nice analogy created by the
author, Douglas Adams.

300
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,040
Again, you know, you may not be
familiar with it, but he he,

301
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,040
he's got this analogy which I
think reveals what's wrong with

302
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,000
that kind of reasoning also.
So his analogy is, you know,

303
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,000
there's a puddle sitting in a
hole on the ground and the sun

304
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,520
is beating down and the puddle
is beginning to evaporate, but

305
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,600
the puddle is completely
convinced that it's it.

306
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,120
It will never disappear.
It's meant to be there.

307
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,480
And how does it know that?
Because it fits so perfectly

308
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,520
into the hole.
There's not a single gap

309
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,680
anywhere.
Clearly it was meant to be

310
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,840
there.
The the hole was created for it.

311
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,560
Now you can see, you know,
Eventually the sun beats down

312
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,720
and the puddle disappears.
What was the puddle's mistake?

313
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,160
Well, there is a there is a
fantastic fit.

314
00:18:57,120 --> 00:18:59,680
But what the puddle is
overlooking is the fact that the

315
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,160
the puddle is a product of the
hole, right?

316
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,040
Not the other way round.
It wasn't that the hole was

317
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,280
created to fit the puddle.
No, the the, the environment in

318
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,920
which the puddle is sitting
created for the puddle.

319
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:13,840
And that's why the the the
puddle and the environment fit

320
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,960
so perfectly.
So similarly, we are a product

321
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,480
of our environment.
Of course it's a good fit

322
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,720
because we've evolved to fit
into it.

323
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:26,080
So that kind of argument also
terrible, terrible argument.

324
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:32,320
But then a more plausible
argument would be, you know to

325
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,120
look at something like fine
tuning.

326
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,720
So arguably the universe is
fine-tuned.

327
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,240
Actually, what all that means?
It's a slightly misleading

328
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,000
expression.
What that what that means is

329
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:50,760
that in order to produce
conscious beings like ourselves,

330
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:55,160
you really have to have a very
specific set of parameters in

331
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,480
place.
The the, the, the, the the

332
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,440
initial conditions of the
universe need to be really

333
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,400
specific.
And if you were to change the

334
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,720
actual conditions, even very
slightly, just a tiny little

335
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,240
bit.
It's not going to work.

336
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,840
So you know, if if there were
somebody tinkering with the

337
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,560
leaders of the universe, they
would have to like really fine

338
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:21,120
tune the universe to to produce
conscious beings like ourselves.

339
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:27,360
Now you could try and get out of
the thought that there is some

340
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:30,440
intelligence behind the universe
that fine-tuned the universe to

341
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,600
have conscious beings like
ourselves in it by suggesting

342
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,240
that there's a multiverse.
It's an infinite number of

343
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,040
universes, and if they all vary
very slightly one from another,

344
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,360
then of course every possible
permutation is going to be

345
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:45,880
covered and you're going to end
up inevitably with the universe.

346
00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:50,680
That's fine-tuned for life, but
if there isn't a multiverse then

347
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:57,840
then it is deeply baffling.
Why is the universe fine for

348
00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,840
life?
And so that that, that that

349
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,840
might point perhaps towards some
kind of intelligence behind the

350
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:08,240
universe.
The problem with that kind of

351
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:13,160
argument is that even if it were
cogent, I'm rather doubt that it

352
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,320
is.
But even if it were, it's only

353
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,120
an argument for some kind of
intelligence behind the

354
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:22,560
universe.
It's not an argument even for a

355
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:28,600
God, let alone the very specific
judeo-christian God that

356
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,360
mainstream monotheists believe
in.

357
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:38,120
In particular, there's no clue
at all provided by this evidence

358
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:41,320
as to the moral character of the
fine tuner.

359
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,960
It doesn't even have to be a
God, though it could be.

360
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,120
I mean, if we're in the Matrix,
well yeah, the universe is going

361
00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:54,440
to be fine-tuned.
If the universe was created by

362
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:59,320
beings that inhabited some
previous universe, yeah, that

363
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:00,360
would that would explain it to
you.

364
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:03,080
You don't need gods necessarily.
But even if you're introducing

365
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:08,880
gods, why that very, very
specific God or omnipotent,

366
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,920
omniscient and Omni benevolent.
All good.

367
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,120
Why, Why that one?
There's we've got no reason at

368
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:17,800
all to to to to to to jump onto
that particular belief and say

369
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,280
Oh yeah, this is the one, this
is the this is the being that's

370
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,800
responsible.
So far, no, no reason to make

371
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,120
that leap at all.
So even if it was a good

372
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:27,320
argument for some kind of
intelligence behind the

373
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,400
universe, it's not an argument.
It's not a really good argument

374
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,800
for the for the for the
existence of the judeo-christian

375
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,160
God.
Particularly when, when you also

376
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,200
look at the universe, it's
filled with pain and suffering

377
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,760
on such a cataclysmic scale that
that constitutes excellent

378
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,520
evidence that even if there is
some kind of intelligence behind

379
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,760
the universe, it's not supremely
powerful and supremely

380
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:49,720
benevolent.
Yeah, I was just about to, at

381
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:52,720
this point, I was just about to
ask you to bring up the Evil God

382
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,600
challenge.
And I mean, that's not very well

383
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,520
known.
And yeah, let's talk, talk about

384
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,640
that and then run through it.
Yeah, sure, sure.

385
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,320
So, So yeah, So what I just
alluded to there was the problem

386
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,800
of evil.
Of course there are two problems

387
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,280
of evil.
There's the logical problem, the

388
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,640
evidential problem.
The way I like to distinguish

389
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,200
them is is my my preference is
like this.

390
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,720
The logical problem says if
there's a God, then there's not

391
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,000
going to be any evil.
Full stop.

392
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,120
Why would you think that's true?
Well, if there's a God, the

393
00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:30,200
judeo-christian God, conceived
of as omnipotent, omniscient and

394
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,240
Omni benevolent, then being
omniscient he's going to know

395
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,160
about any evil.
Being omnipotent, he can prevent

396
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,760
any evil.
And being omnipotent, he's not

397
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,200
going to want there to be any
evil.

398
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,480
Therefore they just shouldn't be
any evil.

399
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,080
Evil here comes in two flavours.
There's natural evil, natural

400
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,440
diseases and disasters that
cause great suffering and moral

401
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:58,880
evils.
The terrible moral, morally bad

402
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,040
things that we do as free moral
agents, start balls, kill,

403
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,440
steal, and so on.
So if there's any evil at all,

404
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,040
then there is no God.
But there is evil.

405
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:09,960
Look out the window.
Therefore there is no God.

406
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,760
That's the that's the logical
problem of evil.

407
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,280
That's widely considered to be
not a terrifically good

408
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,360
argument, in fact, pretty poor
argument.

409
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,960
It's the first premise that
looks dodgy.

410
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,800
Why should we think that if
there is a God that he won't

411
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,880
allow at least some evils?
Surely he would, if that would

412
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,840
be the price that he has to pay
for certain greater goods.

413
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:33,720
I don't know.
Maybe he's going to want, I

414
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,920
don't know, for example, moral
agents who can freely choose to

415
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,960
do good of their own volition,
right?

416
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,600
He might want that.
You can.

417
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,840
You can only have moral goodness
if you create such agents.

418
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,240
But that involves cutting the
strings so they're not puppet

419
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,720
beings, that they can freely
choose to do good of their own

420
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,240
free will.
But if they're puppet beings,

421
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:56,960
then they have the option of
doing evil.

422
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,800
So some evil will exist, but
that's the price that God

423
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:05,080
inevitably has to pay for the
very great good, the outweighing

424
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,240
good, if you like, of our being
able to do good of our own free

425
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,960
will.
So that first premise just

426
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,560
doesn't look plausible.
So now we move on to the other

427
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,760
problem with evil, which, well,
the way I like to set it up,

428
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,520
it's basically basically it's
the same argument with the

429
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,440
addition of the word.
So we move from if there is a

430
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,680
God, then there won't be any
evil to if there is a God, there

431
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:33,040
won't be any gratuitous evil.
And by gratuitous we now mean

432
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,000
evil for which there is no God
justifying adequate God

433
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,440
justifying reason.
Yeah, God may allow some evils,

434
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,960
but it's not going to allow
pointless pain and suffering.

435
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,680
It'll allow it if there's a good
reason for it, but not

436
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,280
otherwise.
So there's going to have to be

437
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,120
an adequate reason for every
last bit of evil, every last

438
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:57,400
ounce of pain and suffering.
If we look at the world now, we

439
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,800
see not just that there is evil,
but that there is, on the face

440
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,040
of it, an awful lot of
gratuitous as evil.

441
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,080
Take for example, childhood
mortality rates human beings

442
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,760
have been on this planet for.
Or the latest estimate is there

443
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:14,920
I think around 350,000 years.
For Homo sapiens as a species,

444
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,480
your chances of making it past
what, 2.

445
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,880
Adulthood?
In almost any generation up to

446
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,320
the last handful, not much
better than 5050.

447
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,800
So enormous amounts of pain and
suffering.

448
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,560
Those children would have died
horribly.

449
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,160
Typically their parents would
have had to watch their children

450
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,960
die horribly, unable to do
anything about it.

451
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,600
Ask any parent that's lost a
child what's the worst thing

452
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,240
they've ever experienced, and
they'll say, that is

453
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,800
unbelievable quantities of pain
and suffering, physical,

454
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,080
psychological, and so on.
Now, if there is a God, every

455
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:57,160
vast teaspoon full of that has
to be justified.

456
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:02,040
There has to be a more than
adequate, no adequate reason for

457
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,240
it.
And to to to many people like

458
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,840
me, that just seems completely
implausible.

459
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,760
It just seems highly unlikely
that all of this evil really can

460
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,040
be accounted for in that kind of
of a way.

461
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:22,640
And so it seems to us that the
evils that we observe are pretty

462
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,200
good evidence against the
existence of such a deity, or

463
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:28,720
powerful, or knowing and all
good.

464
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:34,960
But of course, you know, this is
a very controversial topic and

465
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,840
plenty of theists, of course
know about this objection.

466
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,320
And they have come up with all
sorts of responses, which is,

467
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,720
which is where we start to get
into sort of my evil God

468
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:47,640
challenge.
So how do they respond?

469
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:52,400
Well, they they, they they've
had, you know, a thousands of

470
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:59,520
years, literally to cook up some
explanations, Say for example,

471
00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:04,040
free will again, can you can say
at least some of this pain and

472
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,040
suffering is a product of our
acting freely.

473
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,960
God could have made us puppet
beings that always did the good

474
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,520
thing.
But if you're a puppet being,

475
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:14,800
you're not responsible for what
you do.

476
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,440
So he cuts off strings, sets us
free.

477
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,320
Oh dear.
Some of us do bad stuff, some

478
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,280
I'll, some evil.
The trouble is that, doesn't it?

479
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,120
That's.
I mean, you're just scratching

480
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:26,520
the surface there really.
You know how do you explain

481
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:31,040
350,000 years of very high
childhood mortality rates by by

482
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,000
means of acting freely.
You you can't.

483
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:35,520
It's it's obvious that you
can't.

484
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,960
Or or hundreds of millions of
years of animal suffering.

485
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,680
How's that our fault?
Well, it clearly isn't is it?

486
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,560
So immense amounts of evil still
unaccounted for.

487
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,960
You can then switch to some
other theodicies character

488
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:54,080
building.
We are here to grow and develop

489
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,360
morally and spiritually and we
need to go through a certain

490
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,240
path, pain and suffering in
order for that to happen.

491
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,640
You know, no pain, no gain.
Ask somebody that's experienced

492
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,640
a horrible disease and then got
better.

493
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,840
They'll probably say, you know
what I don't regret or they

494
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,920
might say this, they I don't
regret the pain and the

495
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:12,800
suffering.
I've learned I've grown as a

496
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,880
result.
A parent may be watching their

497
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,560
child riding along on their
scooter with the safety wheels

498
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,920
attached, and then they take the
safety wheels off, knowing that

499
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,000
the child is going to fall on
the floor and grace her knees.

500
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,840
Why would they do that?
Because they know that unless

501
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,800
they take the safety wheels off,
the child will never learn to

502
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,400
ride the bike, will never have
the sense of achievement that

503
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,720
goes with having learnt to ride
a bike and so on.

504
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:39,640
So yeah, God took the wheels
off, training wheels off, right?

505
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:45,920
So that we can grow and develop.
There is some grazing of knees

506
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:51,600
as a result.
So yeah, character building,

507
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,280
that's a possibility.
Again, why Hundreds of millions

508
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,200
of years of animal sufferings.
God trying to do their build

509
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,160
their characters.
Not really plausible is it?

510
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:08,040
And also, killing children on an
industrial scale over 350,000

511
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,480
years is that character
building?

512
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,000
I mean, the way in which pain
and suffering is distributed

513
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,080
seems often as not, probably
more often than not, to destroy

514
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,040
the characters of the people
that are on the receiving end of

515
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,200
it.
People bow out of this life, you

516
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,560
know, they kill themselves
because it's just so awful.

517
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,960
They don't become better people
as the resulting pain and

518
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,160
suffering.
Some do, but very often it's

519
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,920
just implausible that this is
somehow all for the best and

520
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,000
making them better people.
It's not making them better

521
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,120
people.
If anything, it's making them

522
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:44,600
twisted and distorted and awful.
And you know it's not.

523
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,880
It's not a good recipe.
You would.

524
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,520
You would.
What we observe is not what you

525
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,000
would expect to observe if we
were dealing with a supremely

526
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,120
powerful and benevolent creator.
It's just not intuitively, just

527
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,520
doesn't feel right.
No, not plausible.

528
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,440
And then another theodicy,
another explanation.

529
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,840
Laws of nature.
You need certain laws of nature

530
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:09,520
in place to have certain goods.
So for example, this is my

531
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:15,320
example.
In order to interact with other

532
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:21,280
people and help them, which God
will want, we need to know that

533
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,040
we live in a stable law governed
universe in which there are

534
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,480
regularities.
So if I if I want to help,

535
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,600
you're you're cold and hungry, I
want to help you so I want to

536
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,480
warm you up, cook you some food
and so on.

537
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,400
So I need to know that when I
light a match it will produce a

538
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,680
flame, the flame will produce
heat, the heat will cook the

539
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,200
food, the food will warm you up
and so on.

540
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,400
I need to know that these kind
of patterns are woven into the

541
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,280
fabric of reality, otherwise I
can't do anything.

542
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,200
I'm helpless.
So you need laws built into the

543
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,400
world in order to allow for very
important goods.

544
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,120
Unfortunately, those same laws
involve or result in tectonic

545
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,800
plate plate movements that
result in earthquakes and

546
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,760
tsunamis.
That's just the price God has to

547
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,840
pay for the very great goods.
So there's that sort of thing.

548
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,160
And then, if you don't like any
of these explanations or you

549
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,360
think that they're somehow
inadequate and there's a whole

550
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,240
draw full of them, I've only
given you 3, right?

551
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,640
You can also appeal to something
called skeptical theism, which

552
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,440
is quite fashionable at the
moment.

553
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,960
Not all theists sign up to it,
some of them reject it, but

554
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,920
quite a few theists go for
skeptical theism.

555
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,960
So skeptical theism is is a kind
of way of playing the mystery

556
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,680
card, but it's a fairly
sophisticated way of doing that.

557
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,320
What they will say is that if
you look at the 2nd premise of

558
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,600
our little evidential argument
against the existence of God,

559
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,880
it's gratuitous Evils exist,
right?

560
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,720
That was the 2nd premise.
Now we know evils exist, but how

561
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,440
do you know that there are any
gratuitous evils, right?

562
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,440
Basically, you're engaging in an
inference.

563
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,760
You're going, you're thinking, I
can't think of any reasons.

564
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,440
So there probably aren't any
reasons there, right?

565
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,600
But that's a very suspect
inference.

566
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,960
Just because you can't think of
the reasons doesn't mean the

567
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,360
reasons aren't back there
somewhere.

568
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,320
You're very limited in your
abilities.

569
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,240
An analogy is often used
involving a garage.

570
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,880
You look into a garage from
outside, the door is open.

571
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,120
You can't see any elephants.
Is it reasonable to believe that

572
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,960
there that there are no
elephants in there?

573
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:22,840
Yes, certainly is, because if
there was an elephant there,

574
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,880
you'd probably see it.
But that that's a that's a no

575
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,560
seeum inference if you like, and
it's a good one.

576
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,600
But it doesn't work for insects.
Just because you can't see any

577
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,000
insects in the garage looking
from the outside doesn't mean

578
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,320
that there are no insects in
there.

579
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,720
They could easily be insects and
you just can't spot them given

580
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,640
your very limited perceptual
abilities.

581
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,560
So similarly then, given your
very limited cognitive

582
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,840
abilities, it's entirely
possible that there are reasons

583
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,720
back there that justify God in
allowing evils.

584
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:51,760
Just because you can't think of
them doesn't mean that they're

585
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,880
not there.
So you lose the 2nd premise of

586
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,680
the evidential argument, and
then the argument collapses.

587
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,160
So this this is an interesting
move because rather than cooking

588
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,800
up the explanations, you say,
well, I can, maybe I can't cook

589
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,400
up these explanations, but I
don't need to.

590
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,480
Because even if I can't, it's
not reasonable to conclude that

591
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,719
just because I we can't think of
such explanations that they're

592
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,600
not there.
And then the argument collapses.

593
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,719
So that's an ingenious strategy
employed by some theists.

594
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:22,800
And then the the evil God
challenge really is just the way

595
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:31,360
of bringing home, I think,
what's what's inadequate really

596
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,840
about these explanations and
manoeuvres?

597
00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:41,560
Because if you think about an
alternative God hypothesis that

598
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,719
there's an all powerful, all
knowing, supremely malevolent

599
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,280
deity who's cruelty knows no
bounds and whose malice is

600
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:54,600
beyond our comprehension, just
the one God and he created us.

601
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,840
Most people would dismiss that
belief out of hand.

602
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,480
And very often if you ask them
why they dismiss it, they'll

603
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,720
look, they'll say, well look out
the window too much good.

604
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,320
There's love and laughter and
rainbows and puppies and

605
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,600
happiness, and this is clearly
not the kind of world that a

606
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,560
supremely powerful and
malevolent deity would create.

607
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,560
Sure, he might put in some good
in order to maximize evil, but

608
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,480
you know, some of these goods
are gratuitous.

609
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,880
You know, some some of the some
of the joy and some of the, you

610
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,400
know, some of these wonderful
things are clearly not justified

611
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:36,440
from his perspective in terms of
some evil reason.

612
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,280
You know, there's no evil reason
for for love, laughter and

613
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,240
rainbows.
So given that that's true, then

614
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:47,240
given that there are gratuitous
goods, then there ain't no evil

615
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:49,960
God.
And a lot of people I think

616
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,440
would say yeah that's a
fantastically good argument.

617
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,880
But then the question is, well,
hang on a minute.

618
00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:00,720
You said the you said the other
argument about a good God being

619
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:03,080
ruled out by gratuitous evils
that that wasn't a good

620
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:04,920
argument.
Whereas now I'm supposed to

621
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:06,320
believe that this is a good
argument.

622
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,240
So, so what's going on here?
Why is one of these beliefs

623
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,400
ridiculous?
And the other one, Oh no, no,

624
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,200
that that's not been ruled out
at all.

625
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,800
They could easily be a supremely
powerful and benevolent deity.

626
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,280
The malevolent deity.
You know, that's absurd.

627
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:20,560
Look out the window.
Ridiculous.

628
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:26,720
So, so the evil good challenge
is really a way of bringing out

629
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:30,440
that asymmetry, differing
attitudes that we have.

630
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,520
And then it goes on to look at
the specific ways in which

631
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,000
belief in a good God is
developed is is defended.

632
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:44,160
It turns out that you can flip
many of the theodicies and

633
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,840
indeed also sceptical theism.
Let's start with sceptical

634
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,760
theism Works just as well in
defensive belief in an evil God

635
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,680
as a good God.
True are we can't think of the

636
00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:00,000
evil reasons for ice cream and
rainbows and love and puppies

637
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,720
and but that doesn't mean that
there isn't an evil reason.

638
00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:04,120
You know, show a little
humility.

639
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:05,920
Remember the garage and the
insects.

640
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,120
Just because you can't think of
these reasons doesn't mean the

641
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,440
reason's not there.
There could easily be evil

642
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:15,800
reasons for these these goods.
So now if if the original

643
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,280
application of sceptical theism
was good, then this application

644
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,440
of sceptical theism is good and
we cannot reasonably rule out an

645
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,720
evil God on the basis of
observed evils, despite the fact

646
00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:31,520
that almost everyone to begin
with thinks that you can.

647
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,720
That's my impression.
And then the other theodicies

648
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:37,960
too, the ones I mentioned, at
least not all of them.

649
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:39,720
The ones I mentioned, they can
all be flipped.

650
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,880
Yeah, laws of nature, Evil.
God created us within a universe

651
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,880
that contains regularities.
Why?

652
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,640
Well, unless we live in a
stable, law governed universe, I

653
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,480
can't engage in the most morally
depraved activity.

654
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,320
For example, I want to burn your
house down with you in it.

655
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,400
I need to know that when I
strike the match, it'll produce

656
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,520
a flame and the flame will
ignite the petrol that I pull

657
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,160
through the letterbox and so on.
I need to know that these

658
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,080
regular arteries are in place
before I can engage in these

659
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,600
moral.
So that's just the same

660
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,720
explanation flipped.
Works just as well.

661
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,040
Or free will.
Why does an evil God allow some

662
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,160
people to go around helping
other people, reducing

663
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,360
suffering?
Well, he gave us free will.

664
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,040
Why did he give us free will?
So that we can do evil of our

665
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,800
own free choice.
Because if we're if we're just

666
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,200
puppet beings, no one is ever
morally evil.

667
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,800
You're not responsible for the
evil that you do.

668
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,600
So he has to cut our strings,
set us free.

669
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,000
Some of us choose to do good.
That's the price he pays for

670
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,720
moral evils.
It's just the same explanation

671
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,120
but flipped or character
building.

672
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,160
No character destroying.
That's what he's in the business

673
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,000
of.
He'll give us some good things

674
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,160
in order to maximise pain and
happiness.

675
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,320
So he'll give a few people great
stuff.

676
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,360
David Beckham gets a new Bentley
and another multi $1,000,000

677
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,560
contract.
Beautiful wife, lovely children.

678
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,960
Why is an evil God doing that?
To make us feel resentful?

679
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:13,040
Jealous psychological forms of
torment that are only possible

680
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,480
if a few people get great
stuffs, particularly tormenting.

681
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,920
If they don't deserve it, and we
know that we don't, they don't

682
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,800
deserve it.
And we know that we no matter

683
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,520
how hard we will, we will never
get it.

684
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,080
And so on.
It's a way of endlessly rubbing

685
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,840
your nose in the injustice.
Hello magazine is all part of

686
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,560
evil.
Gods Magazine plan to make this

687
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,040
a living hell.
Why does he give us children to

688
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,200
love who love us unconditionally
in return?

689
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,560
Because it's only if you really
love your children that you'll

690
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,080
really suffer when he kills them
on an industrial scale over

691
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,040
350,000 years.
If you don't care about your

692
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,680
children that much, well, it's
not much of a loss, is it?

693
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,960
So he, an evil God, will create
love for sure, because it allows

694
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,800
for the most appalling forms of
psychological torment.

695
00:39:57,840 --> 00:39:59,840
So you can see that you can, you
know.

696
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:06,000
You can have fun cooking up
these ludicrous explanations for

697
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,000
why it's not so ridiculous to
believe in an evil God after

698
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:10,480
all.
But everyone knows.

699
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:13,760
Everyone can see that they're
ridiculous.

700
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,640
Everyone can see that actually,
observation of the world around

701
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,520
us is more than enough to rule
out evil God.

702
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,920
And if that's true, If that's
true, I maintain it is.

703
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,200
You could.
You can question that, but I

704
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,880
would suggest that it is true.
If there, then it's why isn't it

705
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,200
enough to look at the world
around us and conclude, yeah,

706
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,360
there's a lot of lot of a lot of
good in the world, but a lot of

707
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:43,000
evil, An awful lot of evil, More
than enough of both to rule out

708
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,480
both an all powerful or good God
and an all powerful and all evil

709
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:47,680
God.
I mean, maybe there's a bit more

710
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,280
of one than the other, but it
doesn't really matter.

711
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,400
There's more than enough evil
and good to rule out those two

712
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:53,960
deities.
So we've got a lot of deities

713
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,760
left on the table, you know,
team of gods, some good, some

714
00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:59,560
evil.
That was what the Manichaeans

715
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:01,680
believed. 2 gods, one good, one
evil.

716
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,120
Augustine before he became a
Christian.

717
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,240
That's what he believed.
No problem of evil.

718
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:10,440
I mean why was Augustine so
bothered by the problem of evil?

719
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,720
Because he didn't have it until
he became a Christian.

720
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,680
So yeah, later day at his left.
I haven't ruled out every God,

721
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,720
but I've ruled out too, One of
which is God with a capital G,

722
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,400
the all powerful, all knowing
and all good God of traditional

723
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:33,320
monotheism, or so it seems to me
at least.

724
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,400
So really this is a challenge
because the challenge I'm

725
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,240
setting is to is to get those
two to think that these two

726
00:41:39,240 --> 00:41:42,200
beliefs are very different and
belief in God.

727
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,320
OK, maybe not proved, but not
unreasonable.

728
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,000
Not like belief in Santa or
fairies for goodness sake,

729
00:41:48,240 --> 00:41:50,520
whereas belief in an evil God.
No, no, that's ridiculous.

730
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:55,360
OK, if you're going to have such
a big gap between these two gods

731
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,880
in terms of reasonableness,
well, the onus is very much on

732
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,080
you to explain why you're
placing these two deities in in

733
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,600
such a very different positions
on the scale of reasonableness.

734
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:11,480
And I the challenge is to, is
to, is to justify that I can't

735
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,720
do it, which is why I'm sticking
them both right down the bottom,

736
00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:14,920
Yeah.
It's almost like you can't have

737
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,160
your cake and eat it at the same
time, yeah?

738
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,280
So I'm putting them down both
down near the fairies and Santa

739
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:21,960
and so on.
I mean, you know, maybe one's a

740
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:23,320
bit more reasonable than the
other.

741
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,120
Who cares?
It doesn't really matter if even

742
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,640
if belief in a good God is
slightly more reasonable than an

743
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,200
evil or or the other way round,
it doesn't matter.

744
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,800
They're both really low down on
the scale of reasons, even what

745
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,360
we can observe of the world.
And tell me as an As an academic

746
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,440
working on this, as someone
who's spent a lot, a huge chunk

747
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,000
of their life working on these
topics, how do you feel that's

748
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,520
viewed by the laymen, by the
public?

749
00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:49,520
How do they perceive your work?
How's the reaction and response

750
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:54,520
been?
Well luckily I mean it.

751
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,080
It's a nice analogy and and
people love an analogy little

752
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,440
full experiment.
They, I mean it's quite, it's

753
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,920
quite entertaining and for that
reason it might have a little

754
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,560
bit more traction than some
other rather more abstract

755
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,240
arguments.
You know, I can turn this

756
00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:14,440
challenge, but I kind of just
have been really into turn it

757
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,800
into a sort of a little
narrative that draws people in

758
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,680
and they can begin to see that
Oh no, that actually there is a

759
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,880
bit of a problem there and there
are a few laughs involved.

760
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:26,680
So.
So you can kind of sell it.

761
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:33,560
And in fact, one of the reasons
I think that it's particularly

762
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,400
effective and one of the reasons
I particularly like these kind

763
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:44,960
of analogies is that it if you
come at somebody that believes

764
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,800
something head on, particularly
if it's a belief that is

765
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,240
extremely well entrenched and a
lot of very people have spent a

766
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:55,440
lot of time building up defences
around it.

767
00:43:55,440 --> 00:44:00,440
If you come at them straight on,
they're ready for you and any

768
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,840
evidence that you point to,
they've already cooked up an

769
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:05,760
explanation.
You know, why?

770
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:07,400
Why is there animal suffering?
Why is that?

771
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,640
You know, whatever it might
happen to be, they've already

772
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:17,680
got how, how drawful of moves
that they can deploy and get you

773
00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:19,680
very rapidly, get you bogged
down.

774
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,960
So you're not really making any
progress anymore if you come at

775
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,120
them head on.
The same is true of something

776
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:29,040
like Young Earth Creationism,
the view that the entire

777
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:33,440
universe is just a few thousand
years old.

778
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:40,400
Polls indicate you can question
how reliably, but they indicate

779
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,920
that around about 1/3 of
Americans believe the entire

780
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,320
universe is less than 6000 years
old, and that this is good

781
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,040
science even.
And the reason they believe that

782
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,120
is because they're Bible
literalists and they are really

783
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:57,200
good at cooking up explanations
for all of the evidence that you

784
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,480
might use to try and show that
they're mistaken.

785
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,000
The fossil record Light from
distant stars.

786
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,880
All of those craters on the
moon.

787
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,400
Ice cores in the Antarctic.
Lots of lots of seasons that for

788
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,520
rather rather more years there
than 6000.

789
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,440
The white cliffs of Dover, The
sheer depth of material there,

790
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,240
how long it would take to
accumulate that you can point to

791
00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:22,920
all of this stuff.
But if you go to their website

792
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,160
or a website of youngest
creationists, Answers in

793
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:30,880
Genesis, you'll find that PhD
qualified true believers have

794
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:35,120
cooked up an explanation for
every last one of them.

795
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,240
And even if they haven't cooked
up an explanation, they're going

796
00:45:37,240 --> 00:45:39,240
to play the mystery card and
say, well, maybe there is some

797
00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:41,160
reason back there, we just
haven't thought of it yet.

798
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,920
So they think that what they
believe is not unreasonable and

799
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:50,480
in fact is good science.
Now it's really hard to take

800
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,320
them on if you come up straight
ahead.

801
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,320
Even qualified scientists, when
they engage young Earth

802
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,320
creationists, will often come
unstuck.

803
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,360
Seriously, I'm stuck because
these people have adept at

804
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:09,360
debate and they know how to win
a debate and they know how to

805
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,400
create a smokescreen, and it's
sometimes called the Gish

806
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,000
Gallop.
It was a theologian called Gish.

807
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,960
I think it was that used to just
fire off objections and so many

808
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,160
that your opponent couldn't
possibly deal with them all.

809
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:29,000
And so you end up struggling.
And so they boy, are they ready

810
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,720
for you if you come at them.
So it seems to me that what you

811
00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:33,520
really want to do is creep round
the back.

812
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,960
Using an analogy, you point out
that those people over there,

813
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,040
they believe something absurd,
don't they?

814
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,880
And they go, yeah, that's nuts.
Why would anyone believe that?

815
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,760
And then you point out that the
strategies that they're

816
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,480
employing are the exact same
strategies that they're

817
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,040
employing Now.
You can get more traction now.

818
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,120
They have some explaining to do.
If you if you just come at them

819
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,440
with the counter arguments,
they're ready and they have a

820
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:01,800
fortress erected by some of, you
know, by incredibly intelligent

821
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:06,480
people more intelligent than me,
some of them certainly a very,

822
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,960
very well defended position when
it comes to a frontal attack.

823
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:12,760
How do you feel people perceive
it sometimes?

824
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,800
Do you feel like they're you're
attacking them at their core?

825
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,480
Because this is very personal
for some of them.

826
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,560
Do you feel like some of them
misinterpret your intention?

827
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,760
Yes.
I mean, what's you're.

828
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:27,640
You're up against what is
sometimes called cognitive

829
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,360
dissonance, isn't it?
It's, you know, what Festinga

830
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,720
used to talk about the
psychologist.

831
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:40,400
If, if, if, if I believe that
Chamonix is near the Matterhorn

832
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,720
and then somebody points out
that no, you're thinking of

833
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:46,880
Montblanc, I'll just change my
belief.

834
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,880
It's easy.
But if I've invested a great

835
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:55,120
deal in my belief, then I might
not find it quite so easy.

836
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:59,240
So for example, if I've spent my
entire career advertising

837
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:01,840
cigarettes and then it's
discovered that cigarettes cause

838
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,920
cancer, oh, that's a horrible
thing to discover.

839
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,680
And it can be easier
psychologically to just retain

840
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,560
my belief that I've had a
worthwhile career and start

841
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,760
batting away and explaining away
the evidence that seems to

842
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,360
challenge.
Or if I have very strong

843
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,000
political beliefs, you know, I'm
very right wing or very left

844
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,960
wing and then suddenly somebody
starts pointing out evidence

845
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,840
that seems to undermine my
position.

846
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,200
I've invested a lot.
You know, I, I, I have certain

847
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:36,680
friends and family and I've
devoted myself to money and time

848
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,200
and so on to a particular
political cause and and now it's

849
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,680
coming under attack, very
uncomfortable.

850
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,960
So I'm going to start batting,
explaining away the evidence.

851
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:50,400
Or if somebody told me why wife
is a serial killer and gives me

852
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,400
very good evidence that, you
know, she is, am I going to

853
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,600
believe them?
Well, I've got a lot invested in

854
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,320
this relationship.
I'm going to find it's going to

855
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,880
be very, very hard to convince
me I'm, you know, even if the

856
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,160
evidence is completely
compelling, I'm going to sit

857
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:08,440
there going, no, sorry, I like,
you know, I'm going to find ways

858
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:13,240
to explain it away.
So if you've invested a lot

859
00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:17,480
emotionally in a belief system,
you're going to want to find

860
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,120
ways of retaining it when the
evidence starts to mount up

861
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,440
against it.
And that's true of, you know,

862
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,720
conspiracy theories or whatever,
But it's also true of religions.

863
00:49:25,720 --> 00:49:30,840
I mean people, some people have
a very sort of flimsy attachment

864
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,960
to their religion, but other
people have an incredibly

865
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,600
powerful connection to their
religion.

866
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:41,000
Their sense of identity is is
bound up with their religious

867
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:42,560
beliefs.
You know, who they are

868
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:47,560
essentially is linked to their
religious beliefs, their

869
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,280
families, their friends.
They could lose their entire

870
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,080
social universe.
It could we could disappear in a

871
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,280
pop if they stopped believing or
say that they've stopped

872
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,000
believing.
They've spent a lifetime

873
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,160
devoting themselves to certain
beliefs, promoting certain

874
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:07,080
beliefs, defending certain
beliefs to to to to to suddenly

875
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,880
be presented with what looks
like conclusive evidence or very

876
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,000
powerful evidence that what you
believe is not true.

877
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,640
Boy, it's going to be hard for
you to give up your belief.

878
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,680
You're probably not going to
give it up, frankly.

879
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,080
You're probably going to retain
it come what may at that point,

880
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:25,000
such as the investment,
particularly if you're also a

881
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:29,840
bit hard wired by natural
selection to have those kind of

882
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,800
beliefs anyway.
Beliefs in invisible agency.

883
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,600
So.
So, yeah.

884
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:39,280
So am I expecting people to just
go, oh, what a fool I've been.

885
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,680
I'm just going to drop my
religious beliefs now.

886
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:44,400
Stephen, thank you for setting
me straight.

887
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:46,800
Do I expect that to happen?
No, I don't think that will

888
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:50,000
ever.
But that's not to say that you

889
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:51,480
can't have a little bit of an
effect.

890
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:56,320
And in fact, people, I have
talked to people about religion

891
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,000
specifically using this
argument.

892
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:03,640
And people have come back years
later and said, you know what?

893
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,880
That got me thinking?
And in fact, that was like the

894
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:10,440
first thing.
That was the first crack in the

895
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:11,600
dam.
You don't have an instant

896
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:13,720
effect.
You've never going to really

897
00:51:13,720 --> 00:51:16,680
have an instant effect.
But you certainly do see, see

898
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,800
people suddenly you watch the
expressions on their face and

899
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,840
they start to change and you can
see them there.

900
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,400
It's becoming very uncomfortable
for them.

901
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:28,840
But are they going to change
their minds at that point?

902
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:33,160
No.
And in fact, to be fair, they

903
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,520
probably shouldn't.
Not, at least not immediately.

904
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,560
I mean, just because somebody
gives you gives me a really good

905
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,120
bit of evidence that water
doesn't boil at 100°C.

906
00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:45,080
One atmosphere, you know, look,
look, here's the thermometer and

907
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,280
I'm sticking it in.
It says 130, not 100.

908
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,600
You know, look, you can't you
see this?

909
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,680
Believe I, I'm going to dismiss
that.

910
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,600
Rightly so because of all of the
other evidence that I've got at.

911
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,080
What point did you change your
mind, Stephen?

912
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:00,720
Were you ever religious at any
point?

913
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:02,240
What?
What caused you to change your

914
00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:04,560
mind?
Yeah, I think, well, I was

915
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,800
raised in a religious family.
There is a recording of me

916
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,360
singing on with Christian
soldiers age 2.

917
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:14,880
I believe my father has a degree
in theology trying to be a

918
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,480
minister, but then started to
drift away from that.

919
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,240
I was never really, I would
never have described myself as a

920
00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:23,840
Christian.
I remember sitting in church,

921
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,560
even as a young kid thinking,
this is all just ridiculous.

922
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:29,680
Why does anyone believe in you
this stuff?

923
00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:34,520
So I've always been quite
sceptical, but on the other hand

924
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:36,680
I've always been well, for a
long period of time.

925
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:41,160
I was quite sort of mystically
inclined, quite drawn towards

926
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:43,800
when I remember.
I remember reading Plato, The

927
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,200
Theory of Forms, and thinking
this is fantastic.

928
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:50,480
I I love the idea that there's
this hidden universe back there.

929
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,280
I can't peek around and get a
glimpse of it directly, but it's

930
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,280
there and it's somehow
explorable.

931
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,840
That's very exciting.
He wouldn't be interested in

932
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,040
something like that.
And then especially if you've

933
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:08,080
read CS Lewis and the Narnia
books, which are really an an

934
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,240
articulation of that whole
philosophy.

935
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:17,320
So yeah, so I was definitely
drawn towards, I was not

936
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:19,800
dismissive of religious beliefs,
metaphysical beliefs,

937
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:23,840
supernatural beliefs.
I have become more sceptical

938
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,600
over time, but I've never really
given much credence to the

939
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:29,680
thought that there's a supremely
powerful and benevolent

940
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,080
benevolent creator in charge of
the universe that's always

941
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:33,880
strongly is quite.
Ridiculous.

942
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,520
What are your thoughts on those
who who claim that there is a

943
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,160
higher power but we just in a
non religious context?

944
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,880
You know the the agnostic
atheists.

945
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:48,720
A higher power?
Well, I mean, what does that

946
00:53:48,720 --> 00:53:53,560
mean to me?
Aliens or something, I mean, or

947
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:59,600
the CIAI don't.
I mean some sort of spiritual

948
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:03,680
reality.
Yeah, maybe I don't rule it out.

949
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:05,400
I mean, I just don't.
I don't rule it out from the

950
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,760
comfort of my armchair
completely.

951
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,000
But I'd like to see some
evidence for it.

952
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:15,480
I don't really see much, but
that's not enough for me to say.

953
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:19,000
Definitely, it's not there.
On the other hand, many of the

954
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,240
claims made about this unseen
reality are empirically

955
00:54:22,240 --> 00:54:24,400
testable, you might think.
How could that be, Stephen?

956
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,560
How could a claim about the
unobserved be empirically

957
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:27,920
testable?
Well, quite easily.

958
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,480
I mean, electrons are not
empirically observable, but you

959
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,720
can test it.
Test the hypothesis that they

960
00:54:33,720 --> 00:54:37,160
exist.
The Higgs basin, the the distant

961
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,240
past of this planet.
You know, no one's going to get

962
00:54:39,240 --> 00:54:42,480
to take a peek at that, but we
can still hold beliefs

963
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,280
reasonably about it.
You can say this is true.

964
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:47,520
That is false.
It is false that the entire

965
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:51,480
universe is 6000 years old, for
example, or that this planet is.

966
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:55,280
So why?
Why can you do that?

967
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:57,360
Because these claims have
empirically observable

968
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:02,360
consequences, and and many of
them have been tested.

969
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,600
The claim that some people have
a supernatural ability to detect

970
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,560
water using bent coat hangers?
Tested.

971
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:14,920
They don't.
The claim that prayer works for

972
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:16,680
petitionary.
You know petitionary prayer

973
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,920
works for heart patients.
Tested it doesn't.

974
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:25,400
The claim that holding crystals
has some kind of magical power.

975
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,480
Suppose your psychology is
concerned.

976
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,600
Tested proper double-blind test.
It doesn't.

977
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,160
So you can you can do the
experiments.

978
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:40,480
Generally speaking, it turns out
that the claimed thing isn't

979
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:44,120
there, but of course we are
naturally disposed to believe in

980
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:46,560
hidden agents operating behind
the scenes.

981
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:50,240
Even if you falsify one, you'll
probably just switch to another

982
00:55:50,240 --> 00:55:51,040
one.
Anyway.

983
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,320
Yeah.
If if someone, let's say there's

984
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:57,600
someone listening to this
podcast or watching and they're

985
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,320
they're on this edge, they're
kind of, they're religious, but

986
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,760
they step in questioning enough
and they're sort of tipping

987
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:06,120
over, what books would you tell
them to read or what sort of

988
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:09,160
points or advice would you give
them in order to almost convert

989
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,680
them?
Oh.

990
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,440
Or would you even recommend any
reading material?

991
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,240
No, no, not necessarily.
I mean mine, obviously.

992
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:24,840
Yeah.
I mean, so I wrote a very short

993
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:29,400
book called A Very Short
Introduction to Humanism that

994
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:31,960
contains a lot of the thoughts,
not all of them, but quite a few

995
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:33,800
of the thoughts that I'm
explaining now, which is about

996
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:35,600
that fix.
So you could go and have a a

997
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:39,120
read of that if you want a nice
sort of neat introduction to

998
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:41,320
some of my thinking on these
topics.

999
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:45,840
But I I there are there's plenty
of, there are plenty of books

1000
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:47,800
written.
There are plenty of good.

1001
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:50,040
I mean, the thing about
philosophy of religion is it's

1002
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,880
dominated by religious people
for the most part, especially

1003
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:56,480
Christians.
So there aren't that many

1004
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:59,320
atheist blossoms of religion.
And then amongst those, those

1005
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,040
that can write accessibly for a
lay audience that are even less

1006
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:03,880
of, there are even fewer of
those.

1007
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:12,320
So it's quite hard to pick out
people that I could recommend

1008
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:15,680
that would be like high power
philosophers.

1009
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:20,960
There's a book by Mackie called
The Miracle of Theism, which is

1010
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,240
a classic.
I don't agree with everything in

1011
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:24,680
it.
It's kind of it's kind of an

1012
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,560
interesting book and he writes
reasonably excessively.

1013
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:35,080
There are books by humanists.
I count myself as a humanist.

1014
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:37,000
So a humanist is basically
atheist.

1015
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,640
Plus you're a non believer who
also is committed to certain

1016
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:42,960
other things as well, so they're
they will often give you an

1017
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:44,360
argument against the existence
of God.

1018
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,360
So it might be worth having a
look at some of those.

1019
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,320
You could have a look at Richard
Dawkins, if you like The God

1020
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:53,680
Delusion, but he's not.
He's not a particularly

1021
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:59,520
philosophically rigorous critic
of religion, and religious

1022
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:01,520
people often dismiss him as
somebody that doesn't know what

1023
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:04,000
the hell he's talking about.
I think that's a bit unfair, to

1024
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:07,920
be honest.
The argument he presents in The

1025
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:12,040
Good Delusion, I think there is,
it's not completely ludicrous

1026
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,640
argument, actually.
It's often, it's often dismissed

1027
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:16,200
as what an idiot.
Thank you.

1028
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:18,760
Actually Dawkins saying
something like that, but

1029
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,560
actually there's something
interesting in there.

1030
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,440
Yeah, it's not bad.
And I think Dawkins is just so

1031
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:27,520
good at writing The Selfish.
Yeah, other work, yeah.

1032
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:29,960
That people often compare them
and that's the problem because

1033
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,400
he's so good at one side and.
Yeah, yeah.

1034
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,320
Now, he's a fantastic
communicator and he's highly

1035
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:39,200
persuasive.
So the the problem for me is I

1036
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:40,520
do.
I want people to believe what's

1037
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:42,960
true by giving them a really
good book that's highly

1038
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:44,680
persuasive, but the arguments
are a bit dodgy.

1039
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:46,920
But who cares?
Because it, you know, or do I

1040
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:50,840
want to do a book that's sort
of, like really cogent and well

1041
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:55,520
argued but, you know, not
terribly readable and maybe the

1042
00:58:55,520 --> 00:59:00,240
rhetoric isn't nearly as
charming and persuasive?

1043
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:04,160
That's the problem I've got here
because I mean, I'm a

1044
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:07,160
philosopher, so I want people to
believe things that are true,

1045
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,600
but I also want them to believe
things that are true because

1046
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:14,080
they're right, not because
they've been suckered by some

1047
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,680
second hand car salesman.
So, which I'm not suggesting,

1048
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,600
that's what we should talk the
fact that you know, somebody

1049
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:23,760
could get you to reach a true
conclusion by means of the

1050
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:26,880
seductive phalluses, for
example.

1051
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:30,360
I don't want anyone to do that.
So does Mr. Dawkins have some

1052
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:32,240
good arguments?
I think actually he has some

1053
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:35,000
things well worth considering
and they're not nearly as silly

1054
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,120
as people make out.
So I would recommend actually

1055
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,400
that people read his book.
But to be fair, on the other

1056
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:45,040
hand, they certainly are more
more sophisticated philosophical

1057
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,520
thinkers who are a bit more
knowledgeable about all the

1058
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:50,320
philosophical insurance and outs
of the issue.

1059
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:53,640
That that I would also
recommend.

1060
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:56,520
So you.
Put me on.

1061
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,400
The spot and.
I can't remember what they hear

1062
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:00,960
they.
Are no no no stress.

1063
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:03,440
I I spoke to Susan Blackmore
recently and I remember she's

1064
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:07,400
she told me she's writing a book
called God's Memes how religions

1065
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:11,000
Evolve to exploit us.
So this and there's something to

1066
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:12,960
look for for for the future.
Just yes.

1067
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,240
Yeah, the leaders people are
often very highly dismissive of

1068
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:20,040
all that meme stuff as well.
Possibly with some.

1069
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:22,920
You know, it's it's it's not
like they don't have a point.

1070
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:24,760
Actually.
There are some legitimate

1071
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:26,600
worries that you can raise.
On the other hand, I think

1072
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:31,320
there's probably more to it than
they give credit.

1073
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,720
So yeah, well worth reading.
I mean, we're all fallible.

1074
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:36,680
We're all going to make
mistakes.

1075
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:38,240
We're all going to say stupid
things occasionally.

1076
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:39,760
I know what I do on a regular
basis.

1077
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:43,120
So yeah, just because I don't
agree entirely with what's in

1078
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:44,920
the book doesn't mean you
shouldn't go and read it.

1079
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:48,000
Yes, but people, I guessed.
Yeah and tell me Stephen, this

1080
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,720
this relationship between
philosophy and science because

1081
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:54,160
this this podcast is primarily
philosophical but I love science

1082
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:57,000
and I as a medical doctor I'm
obviously ingrained in science

1083
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:00,560
and I and I live with it.
But I have a lot of philosophers

1084
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:03,800
who come on board who don't, who
don't enjoy scientism and don't

1085
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,680
like it, or who critiques
science, And I'm I'm curious,

1086
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:08,840
you tier your thoughts on that.
What what are your views on

1087
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:13,920
science role on in reality?
Well, so I'm not.

1088
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:18,200
I don't like that term scientism
at all.

1089
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:21,880
It seems to me that it's a bit
like the word communism and the

1090
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:23,480
way that that used to be used
it's.

1091
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:26,440
Very negative.
Though in the in the Mccarthyite

1092
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:30,400
period when people would just
shout Communist at you, if you

1093
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:34,400
were even like just a little bit
on the left or liberal, and that

1094
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:37,120
was enough to just shut you down
and people would just stop

1095
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,600
listening to what you had to say
at that point because you were a

1096
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:43,440
communist and say something.
Similar goes on with scientism.

1097
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,080
That's just scientism, they say,
and they point the finger at

1098
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:47,920
Richard Dawkins or whoever it
may happen to be.

1099
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:51,600
And very often, it's the point.
Thing about that, Stephen, is

1100
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:53,800
that seems to be what's
happening nowadays.

1101
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:57,520
It does happen more and a lot of
religious a lot of religious

1102
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:03,240
people do unfortunately do that.
And it unfortunately the people

1103
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:05,880
that they point a finger at when
you look more closely, they're

1104
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:08,520
not committed to scientism as
they understand it.

1105
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:12,040
So if if by scientism, for
example, you mean the view

1106
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:14,840
that's that science can answer
every legitimate question.

1107
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:17,560
He believes that.
I think I've only even met one

1108
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:22,800
person that does EDBA that it
was.

1109
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:27,680
That is Professor Peter Atkins,
professor of Chemistry Emeritus

1110
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:33,200
at Lincoln College, Oxford.
There are maybe, maybe one or

1111
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:36,520
two more people, but they're
they're they're very rare.

1112
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:40,840
You don't find many people like
that to to claim that science

1113
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:44,360
can potentially threaten
religious beliefs and indeed

1114
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:47,280
threaten the claim that God
exists.

1115
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:52,880
That's not scientism, but people
just use that accusation to shut

1116
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:55,520
down the discussion.
The same thing with Darwinism.

1117
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:57,840
They just love saying it.
Yeah.

1118
01:02:57,840 --> 01:02:58,960
Oh, yeah.
That's Darwinism.

1119
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:01,000
Yeah.
I mean, it's, you know, you're

1120
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,800
probably a eugenicist then
That's what we were.

1121
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:04,840
Yeah.
Yeah.

1122
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:06,480
It's a kind of it's a kind of
something.

1123
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:09,200
It's almost like I agree that I
am, but it's very insulting when

1124
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:12,160
you say.
Yeah, yeah, maybe you should

1125
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:13,960
just embrace it.
But the fact is, I'm not.

1126
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:16,400
I'm not ready to scientism.
I mean, here's the thing.

1127
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:17,720
I mean, I'm a philosopher,
obviously.

1128
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:20,040
So I'm, I, I'm.
And my understanding of

1129
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:22,640
philosophy is it's an armchair
discipline for the most part.

1130
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:24,880
You don't need to go down the
lab.

1131
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:26,800
You don't need to get your
telescope or your microscope

1132
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:27,680
out.
You just need to have a good

1133
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:31,040
think.
Now, you might think, how could

1134
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:33,680
you ever find anything about
reality by just sitting in your

1135
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:36,760
armchair with your eyes closed
and your fingers in your ears

1136
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:40,000
and having a good think?
And the answer is you couldn't.

1137
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:46,600
Now that is really what Peter
Atkins, for example, is getting

1138
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:49,200
at when he criticises
philosophy.

1139
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,440
And so when I say it's all a
waste of time, you just want to

1140
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:57,120
do science.
So I'm on board with him Up to

1141
01:03:57,120 --> 01:03:59,360
that point.
You won't find out anything

1142
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:03,040
about how reality actually is by
sitting in your arm, sure, and

1143
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:05,360
having a good thing, but you can
find out an awful lot in

1144
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:07,880
particular.
You can find out how it isn't

1145
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:11,040
because the claim involves the
logical contradiction.

1146
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:17,040
Galileo famously did that with
his two ball thought experiment.

1147
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:20,560
Big ball, small ball, one
heavier, one lighter.

1148
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:24,360
Drop them off the top of the
Leaning tower of Pisa to test

1149
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,080
Aristotle's theory that the
heavier ball will fall more

1150
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:29,840
quickly than the lighter ball.
Did he actually do that?

1151
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:32,040
Probably not.
Did he need to do it?

1152
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:35,760
He says no.
I can do a thought experiment to

1153
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:37,960
show that the theory must be
wrong.

1154
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:41,560
If you chain the two balls
together and now drop them, how

1155
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:44,560
quickly will they fall?
Aristotle's theory predicts that

1156
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:46,520
they will now fall more quickly
because you've made an even

1157
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:49,880
heavier object.
But also it predicts that the

1158
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:52,960
smaller ball will fall more
slowly than the faster ball, and

1159
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:55,280
so it should move behind the
heavier ball and act as a break

1160
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:57,040
on it.
So the two balls combined should

1161
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:00,560
fall less quickly than the
heavier ball on its own.

1162
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,920
That's a logical contradiction.
Aristotle's theory generates

1163
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:05,720
logical contradictions.
It can't possibly be true.

1164
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:09,320
So you can establish what's
possible and impossible, and if

1165
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:11,240
you can establish that
something's impossible, then you

1166
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:13,720
know that ain't how reality is,
right?

1167
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:18,040
Aristotle's theory is not true,
but as to how as to what will

1168
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:20,600
actually happen when you drop
the balls off the top of the

1169
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:24,800
Leaning Tower of Pisa, you'd
have to go and drop them top of

1170
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:26,960
the Pisa.
Now you have to do the

1171
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:30,040
experiment so you know.
You can establish a lot from the

1172
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:33,560
comfort of your armchair.
You can establish that certain

1173
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:35,680
things follow from things that
you've already committed

1174
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:38,320
yourself to.
That could be a significant

1175
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:44,120
moral discovery.
You can discover that what looks

1176
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:47,680
like a cogent argument isn't you
can discover that what looks

1177
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:51,600
like a conceptual obstacle isn't
really an obstacle after all.

1178
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:55,120
You can solve Sudoku puzzles
from the comfort of your

1179
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:56,880
armchair.
You can figure out chess moves

1180
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:57,840
from the comfort of your
armchair.

1181
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:00,080
There are all, there's all sorts
of stuff you can do.

1182
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:01,920
There's knowledge you can
acquire.

1183
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,360
It is important in many cases
from the of your armchair.

1184
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:09,160
But I am an empiricist I think
probably.

1185
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:11,440
Which means I don't think you
can find out anything about how

1186
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:14,440
things stand outside your own
mind by engaging in

1187
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:16,400
philosophical inquiry.
But I never thought of that in

1188
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:19,200
the 1st place, so.
Someone once commented on one of

1189
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:23,080
the videos on the podcast saying
science without philosophy is

1190
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:28,360
religion.
No, I don't agree with that, he

1191
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:31,160
said.
Why not someone who commented in

1192
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:33,680
one of the?
Videos Oh, OK, Science without

1193
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:36,600
philosophy is religion.
No.

1194
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:39,480
Well, it depends what you mean.
It's one of those annoying.

1195
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:40,480
It becomes one of those
annoying.

1196
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:44,280
Argument around in any way
without science is religion.

1197
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:45,800
You could say the same.
Yeah.

1198
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:50,200
That continuously.
That's just an annoying slogan

1199
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:51,960
that I can't even be bothered to
engage with.

1200
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:54,080
On the face of it, it's not
true.

1201
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:58,880
Yeah, you just have to be clear
about what you meant by

1202
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:02,160
religion.
Then most of the tick boxes for

1203
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:04,360
religion are not being ticked by
science.

1204
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:07,640
Yes.
Tell me, Steven, at this point

1205
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:10,280
in your career, what's what's
fascinating you the most right

1206
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:12,960
now?
Well, for a long time I haven't

1207
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,120
thought about the mind and Body
Issue.

1208
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:18,040
And now I'm starting to think
about that again quite a lot.

1209
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:21,520
And I'm thinking, oh, maybe I'll
published on that.

1210
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:23,960
And I'm particularly interested
in the work of the later

1211
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:27,640
Wittgenstein and the idea it's
sometimes called Illusionism,

1212
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:32,720
the idea that that this private
magical Kingdom that we were

1213
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:35,720
started off with, that actually
it doesn't exist.

1214
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:41,960
Wittgenstein in his latest
philosophy maintains it's it's

1215
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:47,120
just it's just a a model.
It's not a false theory.

1216
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:50,560
It's just it's just confused to
think about minds in that way.

1217
01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:54,080
And I'm the more I've thought
about it, the more I've moved in

1218
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:59,960
that direction, actually, for
really Viconstinian reasons.

1219
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:02,680
But you could also be an
illusionist for other reasons.

1220
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:07,680
So there's some Heath Frankish
is a great example.

1221
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:08,840
He's online.
Look him up.

1222
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:11,840
He's fantastic communicator with
philosophical ideas.

1223
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:15,520
He's on Twitter, produced great
podcast with Philip Goff.

1224
01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:19,040
He's an illusionist, but not for
Wikensteinian reasons.

1225
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:23,319
He's got other psychological.
Yes, his is more about

1226
01:08:23,319 --> 01:08:27,439
introspection.
Yeah, I mean, I let's not go

1227
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:29,319
into it, but it's kind of more
empirically based.

1228
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:33,080
Whereas how would a
Wittgensteinian one be?

1229
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:37,760
How would you elaborate on that?
Vicarstinian illusionism

1230
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:42,399
suggests that what's generating
this picture of the mind is a

1231
01:08:42,399 --> 01:08:47,399
linguistic confusion and so you
need to get clear about how

1232
01:08:47,399 --> 01:08:49,920
language is being used.
And if you do that then you will

1233
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:53,560
realise how the illusion has
been created.

1234
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:59,640
I'm quite sympathetic to that
view, but there aren't many of

1235
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:03,960
us to be honest.
But I, I, I, I, I keep, I keep

1236
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:06,040
moving more and more in that
direction over time.

1237
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:15,439
I mean, I can give you a quick
quick outline if you like so

1238
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:18,200
well.
I mean, a lot of people are

1239
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:23,840
drawn to the idea that a
necessity of the 2 + 2 = 4, all

1240
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:26,720
bachelors are unmarried variety,
you know, the strongest kind of

1241
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:31,240
necessity.
That kind of necessity is

1242
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:35,160
ultimately a product of our
linguist linguistic practices or

1243
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:39,279
somehow a reflection of that.
So it's it's essentially it's an

1244
01:09:39,279 --> 01:09:42,560
artefact.
Or maybe that's maybe that's not

1245
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:46,880
quite the right way to put it,
but somehow it's not in the

1246
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:50,399
world, it's in our conceptual
system, right?

1247
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:54,200
That kind of strong necessity.
And you can see that that's very

1248
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:58,120
plausible for the necessity that
all bachelors are unmarried.

1249
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:01,280
Why can you know that from the
comfort of your armchair?

1250
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:04,360
Because it's not out there in
the world.

1251
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:06,200
The necessities in our
conceptual system.

1252
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:08,560
I mean bachelor just means
unmarried male.

1253
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:11,400
So you know, it's you can figure
that out from the comfort of

1254
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:16,280
your armchair.
So if it's true that these

1255
01:10:16,280 --> 01:10:20,360
strong necessities are
ultimately a product or a

1256
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:32,120
reflection of our conceptual
system, then that entails that

1257
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:39,160
the impossibility of my feeling
your pain is really a product of

1258
01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:42,120
our conceptual system and all
linguistic practices.

1259
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:47,360
And if somebody were to say,
well look, what prevents me from

1260
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:50,400
finding a married bachelor,
there's got to be some weird

1261
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:53,120
force in the world that some
stops that from happening.

1262
01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:57,400
Or another example, what
prevents me from drawing A4

1263
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:00,040
sided triangle?
I mean, it's as if some weird

1264
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:02,720
metaphysical constraint is
operating on me that prevents me

1265
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:06,920
from ever doing it, or moving
the king more than one more than

1266
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:10,240
one place in the game of chess.
You can't still be playing chess

1267
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:11,720
if you do that.
Whoops.

1268
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:13,840
So what stops me from doing it?
It's bizarre.

1269
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:15,800
There's this weird.
It's not a.

1270
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:17,480
It's not a.
It's not a force of nature.

1271
01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:20,080
It's not like somebody's
actually preventing my hand from

1272
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:23,760
moving, but I'm metaphysically
prevented from moving the the

1273
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:28,320
chest piece in that way.
Or me painting your picture.

1274
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:31,160
I mean, I can paint a picture
just like your painting picture,

1275
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:32,920
but it won't be your picture
because I didn't paint.

1276
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:36,520
What prevents me from painting
your pitch?

1277
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:41,680
All of these weird constraints
and barriers and super rigid

1278
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:46,960
rails and impenetrable walls.
They're all illusory.

1279
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:49,840
They're all products of all not
paying enough attention to how

1280
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:53,520
language is being used.
But if that is true, then the

1281
01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:57,000
barrier that prevents me
accessing your pain, which is

1282
01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:59,480
also a metaphysical barrier, not
a physical one.

1283
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:01,920
It's got to be illusory, I.
See.

1284
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:06,680
OK, I I once spoke about this.
I touched on it very briefly

1285
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:09,200
with Noam Chomsky.
I asked him about this, the

1286
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:12,520
linguistic limitations that we
have and whether this plays a

1287
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:16,640
huge role in how we understand
the word consciousness, what

1288
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:20,120
phenomenal consciousness means
and how we interact and

1289
01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:22,480
integrate information.
Because if you think about

1290
01:12:22,480 --> 01:12:26,640
Sanskrit as an ancient writings,
let's say, had thousands of

1291
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:28,560
vocabulary, punctuations,
etcetera.

1292
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:32,280
Did it transmit more information
per sentence than us with

1293
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:36,560
English right now And would that
be one of the hindering factors

1294
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:39,240
that we have right now that
limits us from expressing what

1295
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:41,640
consciousness is.
Do you get where I'm going with

1296
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:43,920
that or am I?
Yeah, I just, I just came out of

1297
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:45,080
the.
By the way, Stephen I if.

1298
01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:49,800
You thought that there was
something sort of magical, at

1299
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:55,800
least metaphysical, about
consciousness, something

1300
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:59,160
essentially private, which is
necessarily incommunicable to

1301
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:04,600
others perhaps, or could only be
communicated by some quasi

1302
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:09,040
magical language.
This is not beyond our ability

1303
01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:12,720
to grasp or something like that,
if that's how you think about

1304
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:17,920
minds.
My view that I'm leaning towards

1305
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:22,600
at least, is that that picture
of mines is just wrong, and we

1306
01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:27,960
know it's wrong.
It's if it has to be wrong, if

1307
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:31,720
what I said about metaphysical
necessities and constraints more

1308
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:34,480
generally is true.
And I think it is true that

1309
01:13:34,480 --> 01:13:37,120
whenever you come up against
such a metaphysical barrier,

1310
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:41,000
barrier is not really out there.
It's not really preventing you

1311
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:44,080
from doing anything.
I mean, the truth is that what

1312
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:47,120
prevents me from drawing A4
sided triangle is not isn't.

1313
01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:49,640
There is no constraint.
It just doesn't make sense to

1314
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:52,280
talk about four sided triangles.
It doesn't make sense to talk

1315
01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:55,960
about moving the king two places
and still being playing chess.

1316
01:13:55,960 --> 01:13:59,400
That's just nonsense.
You drifted into an area where

1317
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:03,080
you're not even using language
meaningfully anymore.

1318
01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:04,760
It's not moved into the realm of
norms.

1319
01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:08,240
So the barrier is between sense
and nonsense is the truth, is

1320
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:12,240
the truth, but it gets projected
into the world as a sort of

1321
01:14:12,240 --> 01:14:14,640
constraint that stops people
from doing things.

1322
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:19,320
And so in the Brown and Blue
books that the Wittgenstein's,

1323
01:14:20,120 --> 01:14:24,200
he didn't publish them himself
but there are writings of his

1324
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:27,920
that got solo tapes together
into the back, though actually

1325
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:29,400
not that's not quite that that
would be yet.

1326
01:14:29,400 --> 01:14:32,120
Well, brown and blue books were
notebooks that he made available

1327
01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:39,480
to his students.
In there he says, supposing that

1328
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:45,800
I can't feel your pain, if
that's what you want to say,

1329
01:14:47,240 --> 01:14:50,960
that it's somehow absolutely if
you like that, is it possible

1330
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:53,760
for me to for me to do that?
So there's some, it looks like

1331
01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:58,120
there's some domain that I am
prohibited access to right by

1332
01:14:58,120 --> 01:15:03,440
this wall.
If if what's really going on

1333
01:15:03,440 --> 01:15:06,200
there is that you've decided to
use language in a particular

1334
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:10,520
way, you have decided to say
that we're not going to allow

1335
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:12,600
people to say that they feel the
same pain.

1336
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:14,360
We're going to.
We're going to make it a

1337
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:19,000
condition of it being the same
pain that it belong, you know,

1338
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:21,800
numerically identical pain, that
it has to belong to the same

1339
01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:23,680
subject, that it can't belong to
two other studies.

1340
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:25,680
This is just stipulative.
This is just something that

1341
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:28,920
we've decided to introduce now,
linguistically, but it gets

1342
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:35,240
transformed into a metaphysical
obstacle, a barrier, and then

1343
01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:38,920
the the area that the barrier
circumscribes, which is not a

1344
01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:41,760
physical space, because any
physical space will be

1345
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:43,840
penetrable.
Others will be able to get in

1346
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:47,280
there in principle, but this is
necessarily an impenetrable

1347
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:49,520
barrier.
The space behind it, which is

1348
01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:54,000
not a physical space, is itself
an illusion, A linguistic

1349
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:58,400
illusion.
I I'm I find that quite

1350
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:02,360
plausible personally.
Do you think a, let's say

1351
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:08,760
Germans would be able to sort of
see clear more clearly with

1352
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:10,800
regards to that?
Do you think a language system

1353
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:14,920
that's better would allow us to
see better?

1354
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:15,600
I.
Don't know.

1355
01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:18,720
Explaining that to me.
Yeah, I don't know.

1356
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:21,720
I mean, it's a good, it's a good
question in experimental

1357
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:24,040
philosophy, as it's known, you
know, to what extent are these

1358
01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:27,840
problems a product of our own
particular linguistic practices

1359
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:30,160
or conceptual biases or whatever
it may happen to be?

1360
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:31,760
Maybe.
Maybe you go to China.

1361
01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:34,320
This was claimed at one time.
I think people have backed off

1362
01:16:34,320 --> 01:16:37,520
now, but it was claimed that the
Chinese people don't respond to

1363
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:42,240
Gettier Gettier's style thought
experiments concerning knowledge

1364
01:16:42,240 --> 01:16:44,000
in the same way that Westerners
do.

1365
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:46,720
That would be that would be that
would be kind of interesting.

1366
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:49,280
Yeah.
It might be that people, beings

1367
01:16:49,280 --> 01:16:52,120
with very different kinds of
linguistic practice, would have

1368
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:54,520
quite different kind of
philosophical puzzles.

1369
01:16:58,440 --> 01:17:00,600
I think that's probably that
that that might well be true,

1370
01:17:00,920 --> 01:17:03,960
yeah.
It reminds me of the IT was

1371
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:08,280
this, I think someone did an
experiment on blind patients who

1372
01:17:08,280 --> 01:17:12,560
don't have hallucination.
I can't remember exactly what it

1373
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:17,480
was, but it it it does sort of
show that certain experiences in

1374
01:17:17,480 --> 01:17:21,120
life and certain limitations do
change your complete experience

1375
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:24,320
of nature in itself.
I can't remember.

1376
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:27,120
I don't remember the experiment
well enough to talk about it.

1377
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:30,160
Sorry, Steve, by the way, I just
came out of hospital yesterday,

1378
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:33,840
so I'm very congested.
Oh, I love this cognitive ace.

1379
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:34,800
Yeah.
Yeah.

1380
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:36,880
You all right.
So I've got a bit of a cognitive

1381
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:38,120
ace.
I had COVID last week, you know,

1382
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:40,440
Oh, don't.
You you OK?

1383
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:41,520
No, I'm good.
I'm good.

1384
01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:46,000
It's just I just got out this
morning so I took a cancel a a

1385
01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:47,760
few interviews this past week
because of that.

1386
01:17:48,280 --> 01:17:50,440
But yeah, so if I'm if I'm not
expressing myself properly,

1387
01:17:50,440 --> 01:17:51,880
that's probably the reason I'm
just.

1388
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:54,520
Well, this is philosophy.
So we all, we all, we all

1389
01:17:54,520 --> 01:17:55,640
struggle.
I mean, I've.

1390
01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:57,280
I've been tripping over my
words.

1391
01:17:59,520 --> 01:18:00,720
Stephen, anything you want to
mention?

1392
01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:02,760
Any final words from your side?
Anything you feel we didn't

1393
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:04,080
cover that you'd like to touch
on?

1394
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:07,160
No, no.
I mean, well, of course there's

1395
01:18:07,160 --> 01:18:10,080
a big, big, big subtle area and,
you know, I'm interested in all

1396
01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:12,680
sorts of issues.
But yeah, no, the the things

1397
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:16,440
that I'm been thinking about a
lot at lately are are the things

1398
01:18:16,440 --> 01:18:20,240
we covered actually, yeah.
No, this is this was an absolute

1399
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:21,480
pleasure.
Thank you so much.

1400
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:23,200
No, it was a pleasure talking to
you.

1401
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:26,200
No, you were extremely you're an
extremely good interviewer.

1402
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:30,160
You gave me lots of space to
ramble on, but you also kept me

1403
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:32,640
reasonably focused on.
That, yeah.

1404
01:18:33,040 --> 01:18:35,560
What I plan for our next tour
around 2 is, is to take a

1405
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:37,440
specific paper and then go into
great detail.

1406
01:18:37,440 --> 01:18:39,120
And I I've noticed the audience
loved it.

1407
01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:40,280
So it's something they really
enjoy.

1408
01:18:41,200 --> 01:18:42,960
Yeah.
Now that would that that would

1409
01:18:42,960 --> 01:18:45,440
be good.
Yeah.

1410
01:18:45,440 --> 01:18:47,320
Close analysis of an actual
paper.

1411
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:48,880
Yeah.
So we do that and and it it

1412
01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:50,480
seems to get great engagement as
well.

1413
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:53,240
So I think that's something we
can do in the future.

1414
01:18:54,120 --> 01:18:55,920
Yeah.
Well, look forward to that then.

1415
01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:56,400
Yeah, great.