Do We All Have an Inner Voice? Descriptive Experience Sampling & Myths of Mind | Russell Hurlburt

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Thank you so much for joining
me, Russ.

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It's it's an honor to chat to
someone who's spent decades

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exploring this field we both
love so passionately and dearly.

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You spent, as I said, decades in
this field exploring something

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that's deeply fascinating, Inner
experience.

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For those new to your work, I'm
I'm pretty sure this podcast

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people are quite familiar.
But for those who are not

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familiar, how do you define
inner experience and why does it

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matter?
Well, I define inner experience

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as whatever is occurring.
What I would say is before the

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Footlights of consciousness at
some particular moment.

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So I usually define almost
always in my work to find that

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moment by a beep.
So I give you a beep.

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So I'm like beep.
And I want to know what is, what

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is what you, what your bag of
neurons and bones has selected

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as being of enough interest to
to be present to you.

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What I call directly apprehended
at the at some particular

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moment, not in response to the
beep, but what I call the last

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undisturbed moment just before
the beep, which is of course not

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really undisturbed.
And it's not really the last

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moment, but it's.
But I think what I have found, I

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guess, is that most people most
of the time know what I'm

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talking about after a couple of
iterations of going through that

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kind of a conversation.
So that So what I would say is

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that there are a welter of
things in the universe in the

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immediate environment and your
past environment and whatever

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that that could that you could
be interested in at the moment.

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But out of those you have
probably chosen one or two or a

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few or none to be interested in
at some particular what I would

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usually have as randomly
selected moments and inner

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experiences.
Whatever it is that that you

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have found interesting enough to
have placed before your

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Footlights of consciousness.
So that's what inner experience.

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Why, why is it important?
I I guess because I think since

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the beginning of time, it was
probably the most interesting

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question in the in the world and
people are asking a penny for

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your thoughts.
What as soon as there were

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people, I suppose.
And if you go back and read

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Gilgamesh or the very earliest
writings, they're, they're about

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people interest, interested in
other people's consciousness.

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And that's what I'm interested
in.

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I'm, I'm, I'm no more and no
less interested in it than than

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trying to get a good answer to
the to the question of what's in

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your experience at some
particular moment.

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Russ, it's your work touches on
such deep philosophical,

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psychological, neuroscientific
topics.

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What I love to do is for the
audience, for myself, is to try

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and define concepts.
If you had to think about your

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definition of consciousness, you
mentioned that that word

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experience and mind.
How do you differentiate or

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define these concepts?
Well, that's either an easy

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question or a difficult
question, depending on how you

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ask.
I I don't know what

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consciousness is, so I don't try
to define it.

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I don't know what the mind is,
and so I don't try to define it.

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I do think that there is things
that are directly apprehended

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and that's what I call inner
experience.

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What causes that?
I presume other people presume,

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I don't really care, but other
people presume is consciousness

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or mind or something.
And and that's, I think that's

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too hard a problem for me,
probably too hard a problem,

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maybe too hard a problem for
anyone.

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And So what I, what I try to do
is to limit myself to what I

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think I can say with some
confidence, which is to say I'm

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interested in what I call inner
experience, what is directly

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apprehended.
And I think anybody who is

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interested in consciousness or
mind or whatever ought to take

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my work seriously or, or do
better than, than me.

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I don't, I don't consider myself
the pinnacle of, of this kind of

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thing.
I've, I've been working at it

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pretty hard, doing it as best I
can for quite a quite a while.

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But I think there might be other
people who come along doing it

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better.
If I, if I knew of any, I would

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be doing it their way.
But, but I think, I think

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directly apprehended inner
experience ought to be something

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like a building block or at
least item of consideration for

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someone who is interested in
consciousness or mind.

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But I don't, I I'm not being
glib when I say I don't know

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anything about consciousness or
mind.

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I just don't know anything about
consciousness or mind.

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And I'm telling you that as
straightforwardly as I can.

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I, I think that's the perfect
answer.

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It's kind of like the more you
understand the mind, the more

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you learn about it, the more
ignorant you become about the

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fundamental essence of what this
deeply fascinating experience

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is.
And that's how I feel the more I

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explore this topic.
And this this podcast is

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obviously dedicated to the mind
body problem.

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And, and while I came to this
podcast with a certain view, the

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more I explore this with, with
professors from different

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backgrounds, different thought
processes, it's very difficult

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to give a definition.
Do you find that that's been the

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case when you first started out?
I mean, in the 1970s, you put

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beepers on people.
Firstly, what was that like?

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What, what were you hoping to
uncover at the time?

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And how have your views changed
over time since you've done

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something so strange and yet so
incredible?

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Well, it's true.
I, I, I invented a beeper in

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1973, started using it in 1973
and, and I at that time was a

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first year graduate student.
Basically, I figured out how to

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build a beeper on the truck on
the way to my, my graduate

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training in clinical psychology.
And when I got to the, when I

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got there, the director of
clinical training said, what do

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you want to do, Russ?
And I said, I want to randomly

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sample people's thoughts.
And he said he didn't think that

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was possible, but I said, I
think I can do it.

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And, and, and he said, well,
then go for it.

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Much to his credit, Carl Saprell
was his name.

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Very nice guy.
But so, so basically, I, I was

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brought up, I, I grew up in the
behaviorist tradition and, and

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came of age more or less at the
same time as the behaviors

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tradition was maybe beginning to
crumble a little bit.

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There were cracks in the
behavior.

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The behaviors have been the by
far the leaders for quite some

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number of decades by that time.
But there was dissatisfaction

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because, because most people,
many people, including me,

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thought that behavior was
important.

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But it, it wasn't the only thing
it would, what people were

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thinking was, was important.
And at that time in the 70s, I

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was, well, let's put this way,
what I, in my version of the

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history, the, the behaviorist
tradition cracked in the

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direction of the cognitive
tradition.

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And so I was there at the
beginning and contributed to

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the, to those cracks, I would
say.

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And the cognitive tradition was
primarily interested in thinking

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and, and so my original work was
mostly about thinking.

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So I asked people about their
thoughts.

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I gave people a beeper.
What made me different from from

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other folks is I gave people a
beeper and a questionnaire so

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that you, if you had a pad of
paper, which was a bunch of

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Likert scales, questionnaire
scales, and you were supposed to

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respond to those about your
thoughts or thoughts about the

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past or the president, about sex
or about whatever.

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And and then I analyzed those in
the way that people analyze

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questionnaires.
So I factor analyzed and

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whatever.
And very soon I discovered that

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I didn't know what a, what it
really meant when I was so some

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subject was saying a three and
a, some Likert scale about

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whether this is about sex or
not.

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And I didn't know what that
meant.

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And so I started to ask people
all, you know, you called this a

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three wouldn't why did you do
that?

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And so we started having
conversations about that and

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they didn't know what why they
put a three on there.

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And I didn't know why they put a
three on there.

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And so I came fairly early in my
career, very early in my career

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to say science.
Science can't be built on that.

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A science that's going to last
can't start on observations that

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nobody knows what the fuck
they're talking about.

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And it just, it would so, so I
started asking people tried to

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try to tell me about something
that they knew what they were

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talking about.
And very soon within a well with

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very soon with like 5 years
maybe I'm, I, I thought, well,

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I, I so, so I abandoned
questionnaires pretty early on.

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By the, by the time the 70s had
ended, I, I was pretty sure that

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questionnaires about inner
experience couldn't do it.

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And, and I had decided that
thinking was not necessarily the

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most important thing.
Because when I started asking

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people about what was important
to them, it turned what was

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going on with them.
When the beep beeped, which is

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what my interest was, they were
telling me about things that

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were not necessarily cognitive.
So the cognitive start became

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one thing that they might be
interested in, but they were

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also interested in feelings and
sensations or whatever.

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And I was became interested in
that it's.

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So I had a beeper which I
thought was a good idea.

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I had a questionnaire which I
thought was a bad idea.

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I had interviews which I thought
were pretty good idea.

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And then the, and the question
became, well, what to do with

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that?
So I started to read the

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literature that was available
and it seemed sort of relevant

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to this stuff, which would have
been the phenomenology

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literature and the cognitive
science literature and the

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memory literature and the
eyewitness testimony literature

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and Buddhism and Christianity
and Jainism and people who were,

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who were trying to take take
consciousness or whatever

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seriously.
And out of that came the

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descriptive experience sampling
by about 1980.

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And, and it's changed a little
bit over the years since 1980.

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Not very much, but I think I've
gotten better at it over the

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years.
But the the thrust of it was

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pretty much set for me and which
which was basically it was worth

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it, I thought in 1980 and still
think to try to get somebody to

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tell me in a way that I found
believable what was occurring

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already in their consciousness,
whatever that was in which I

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prefer to call in her
experience, whatever, whatever

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they were directly apprehending
just before they were disturbed

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by the beep.
Now I've forgotten.

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I've forgotten what your
original question was, but that

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was what my what I was.
Trying to answer your answer

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perfectly lays out so many
things I want to dissect and

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discuss moving forward.
One being, you mentioned

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behaviorism as a huge
fundamental shift in philosophy

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and science.
And at some point, while it grew

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and peaked and then obviously
sank at some point, you often

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defend BF Skinner as being
misunderstood.

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You, you know exactly what he
meant when he said certain

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things within the field of
behaviorism.

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I, I know that you met him once
and you had one encounter with

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him.
What was it like?

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What was that experience like?
And just for all of those who

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are not familiar with BF
Skinner's work, maybe perhaps

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you could describe what his
thesis was, How's yours, how

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yours perhaps differs from it,
and why people interpret BF

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Skinner's work incorrectly.
That, that is a very difficult

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question.
I only, I only ever met him once

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in A and it was not an important
deal for him.

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I'm sure it was a, in a crowded,
crowded room.

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And I was one of several people
that, that he met at that time.

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I, I have spent some time with
some people who were his

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disciples and what he, what he,
what he said was that the world

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before him.
So we're, he's we're now we're

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talking about the 1950s, maybe
forties, 40s or 50s before him,

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the world was interested in
mental events and habits and

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things.
And he said, and I think

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entirely correctly.
So I'm going to, I'm what I'm

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going to say about about Skinner
right now.

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I totally agree with it.
What what he said was the the

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world, the world of philosophy
and psychology was built on what

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he would call mentalisms, which
was the people people gave

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mental existing in the mind or
conscious of something credit

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for causing behavior.
And so people would do things

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like measure habit strength or
memory strength or or whatever.

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And, and, and Skinner thought
that was a mistake because it

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turns out when you try to
measure habits or, or even even

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00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,880
things like hunger, that turns
out to be a very different, very

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00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,920
difficult thing to do.
But the world, the, the

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00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,240
philosophical and psychological
world at that time was, was

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00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,000
trying to do that.
And so it would say things like

230
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:47,680
I eat because I'm hungry.
And hunger would be a, what

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00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,560
Skinner would call a mentalism.
But then people would use that

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00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:55,440
as an explanation for why they
eat while I'm eating because I

233
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,160
got this hunger stuff.
And so people are trying to

234
00:13:58,160 --> 00:13:59,640
measure hunger.
Well, that turns out to be a

235
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,800
very difficult thing to do even
in in a rat.

236
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,120
For example, when you try to
measure hunger in a rat, you can

237
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,920
do that by the number of hours
or days or whatever since you

238
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,920
have allowed him to eat.
Or the amount of quinine that

239
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,160
you can put in his food before
he'll stop eating it.

240
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,120
Or the amount of shock that he
will endure to walk across a

241
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:22,280
grid to get to something to eat
or, or a variety of other kinds

242
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:23,720
of things.
And they don't correlate very

243
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:28,720
well with each other.
And, and even if they did, well,

244
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,120
I guess I don't have to say that
because they don't.

245
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,600
So they so, so Skinner came to
believe that you just shouldn't

246
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:41,000
credit mentalistic events.
And I think he's 100% correct

247
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,160
about that.
And so his solution was to say,

248
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,720
well, then we should just look
at directly observable behaviors

249
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,840
and we should count, we should
count them and we should observe

250
00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:54,720
them.
And then we can say, well, the

251
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,520
behaviors that occur in Skinner
said that behaviors that occur

252
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,120
at at high frequencies are ones
which have been followed by

253
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,240
things which are reinforcement.
But, and this is where Skinner

254
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,280
and I sort of part ways.
I think he was sort of partially

255
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,320
right about that.
But, but, but he said, and his,

256
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,200
his version of the world was
what he called radical

257
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,320
behaviorism.
And by radical he meant

258
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,480
radically eliminating
mentalisms.

259
00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,680
So radical is the same way as
you would say about a radical

260
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,080
surgery.
Radical mastectomy is to remove

261
00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,160
the whole thing to remove, to
remove everything.

262
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,760
That's so that's he didn't mean
radical as being like a

263
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,880
revolutionary.
He meant radical by me as being

264
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,440
complete.
So his his version of radical

265
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,280
behaviorism was to say, let's
stick with it, with what we can

266
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:50,640
observe.
That's so he is given credit.

267
00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:52,920
Skinner is given credit as
saying, well, what they didn't

268
00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,600
think that mental life existed
and that is not true.

269
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,600
That I think is not what Skinner
thought.

270
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,960
Skinner understood that that
there were things would happen.

271
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,160
You took touched a hot stone.
There was pain that that

272
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,200
occurred and that was you know,
I didn't I don't see your pain

273
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,200
when you touch a hot stove.
I don't see your pain.

274
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:17,200
I see you recoil from the stove
or whatever, but the so Skinner,

275
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,760
Skinner understood that that
that experience existed.

276
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,080
He just didn't think it was easy
to measure.

277
00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,360
And so I came along a generation
after Skinner and said, well,

278
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,040
Skinner was right about
mentalisms.

279
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,680
You can't, can't do mentalisms.
But he was overly zealous, I

280
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:40,360
would think, about eliminating
inner experience because inner

281
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:45,120
experience, as I came to define
it, I think is as directly as

282
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:50,200
apprehended as external behavior
in the sense that someone is

283
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,800
seeing it.
So when I see you recoil from

284
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:58,320
the stove that I am experiencing
your recoil and I'm counting it.

285
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,400
And I can, you know, I can say,
well, stove was a punishing

286
00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,839
event for whatever, but it but
it comes down to an observation,

287
00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:06,680
which is basically a private
event.

288
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,599
And what I call inner experience
is a private event.

289
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:17,240
But it's as is, is, I think as
directly apprehended as your

290
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,440
stove recoil.
I'm, I am directly apprehending

291
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,920
that.
So my job, as I saw it in 1980

292
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,280
and still do basically is to
say, well, Skinner was right.

293
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:33,160
We shouldn't try to credit
things that we can't directly

294
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,640
apprehend.
But he was overly zealous in

295
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,600
saying, well, we should then
just eliminate all inner

296
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,040
experience from our from our
science.

297
00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,000
And so the question is, well,
what do you do about that?

298
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,280
And my answer to that, there
might very well be better

299
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,440
answers, but my answer is, well,
we should accept that inner

300
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:50,920
experience is directly
apprehended.

301
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,040
We should try to try to make
that more public, more

302
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,880
accessible, even though it's
fundamentally private.

303
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:05,440
So I'm a, I'm, I'm 100% in
agreement with Skinner and, and,

304
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,360
and Skinner.
Skinner was quite clear, but he

305
00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:11,280
doesn't get, doesn't get enough
credit for it.

306
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,120
He was.
He was quite clear that inner

307
00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:15,640
experience existed.
But they're private.

308
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:21,280
Russ, you, you, you mentioned
descriptive experience sampling

309
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,640
and that's one of the deep
foundations of your work.

310
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,840
For for anyone not familiar with
it, could you explain how DES or

311
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,240
deep experience sampling?
Descriptive, sorry experience

312
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,680
sampling works from the beeper
signal to interview process in a

313
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,280
way that's clear for most
listeners who are either

314
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,320
familiar or not familiar with
your work.

315
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,840
And for anyone who are familiar,
anyone who is familiar, sorry,

316
00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:46,440
would you perhaps take it
further for them?

317
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,600
So I will let me grab a beeper.
Oh, this is perfect.

318
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,400
I've actually been.
I was hoping you'd do something

319
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,400
like this.
So I have a beeper.

320
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,440
This is this is this is the
beeper that I've used.

321
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,280
I've I've used, I can actually
probably still have this is the

322
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:09,280
original beeper.
This is the this is the beeper

323
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:15,960
from 1973 and this is the beeper
from 19 #2000 maybe.

324
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,680
And I've been using this, this
beeper, and this is, this is the

325
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,120
beeper that I have a patent on.
This is a beeper that uses a

326
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:25,440
little computer that this has a
little computer in inside it.

327
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,680
But basically it, it, this
beeper is nothing more than

328
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,280
basically a, a, a random
interval generator.

329
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:37,640
And you turn it on and it
delivers a beep, but you

330
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,680
probably can't hear because zoom
is zoom filters it out.

331
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:42,880
But let's see whether you can
hear a beep.

332
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,600
Did you hear anything?
No.

333
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,600
So zoom, zoom is very aggressive
about that and, and effective

334
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,360
and, and, and so, yeah, I can't,
I can't argue against against

335
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:56,720
zoom for that.
But there's a beep and it goes

336
00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:03,800
and it's a 700 Hertz signal
which which sounds like beep and

337
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,600
it go and, and, and the the
moment that I am interested in

338
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:13,120
is the moment that's right
before that beep so.

339
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:22,280
If I were to draw time going
like this, here's time going,

340
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,640
something beeps and the thing
continues to beep until you stop

341
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,360
the beep.
So you push the button on the

342
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:30,480
top of the beeper to stop the
beep and time continues to mark

343
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,080
March along like that.
So this is time going in this

344
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,120
direction.
The moment that I'm interested

345
00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:41,400
in is this one right there.
One, I sometimes say 1

346
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,120
microsecond just before the beep
occurs.

347
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:45,680
It's not really a microsecond.
Sometimes I say it's a

348
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:47,120
millisecond.
It's not really a millisecond

349
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:49,040
either.
Sometimes I say it's the last

350
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,800
undisturbed moment.
It's not really undisturbed, but

351
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,680
but that's the this is the
moment that I'm interested in.

352
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,120
I want us to focus in on what
was happening just before the

353
00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:02,680
beep interrupted your
environment.

354
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,040
So I sent, I give you a beeper,
send you out into the natural

355
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,680
environment in your natural
environment doing whatever it is

356
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,720
that you would normally do
because that is what I think is

357
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,920
interesting.
I'm not particularly interested

358
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,600
in what you do in a laboratory
when I'm setting you up to do

359
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,520
artificial stuff, but I send you
into your natural environment.

360
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,720
The thing beeps.
You write down in a notebook.

361
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,080
It's a little 3 by 5 regular
little notebook.

362
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,840
You jot down some notes about
that.

363
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,720
You can put them in your phone.
If if if you if you prefer.

364
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,080
I think the notes are better,
but different people do a

365
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:37,240
different way.
I don't really care.

366
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,880
And, and then we'll get so you
so you get a half a dozen of

367
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,320
those samples, you get a half a
half a dozen notes in your

368
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:45,480
notebook.
And then we get together and

369
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,160
talk about that.
And, and we do that in what I

370
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,440
call an expositional interview.
And the expositional interview

371
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,840
is basically I say to you, well,
what was going on Tevin in, in

372
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,240
the first beep?
What was, what was it?

373
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,440
What did you directly apprehend
at the first beep?

374
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,160
And then we have a conversation
about that in which I, if that's

375
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,680
the only question that I'm
interested in, but I'll ask

376
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,200
follow up questions to try to
get it, try to get you to tell

377
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,240
me what was in your, in your
inner experience.

378
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:15,880
And you're probably not going to
be very good at it.

379
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,880
And so you tell me about a lot
of stuff that's not at the

380
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,640
moment of the beep and that's
not in, in your experience.

381
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,800
So you'll tell me what was
happening before the beep and

382
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:26,000
what was happening after the
beep.

383
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,520
I was startled by the beep.
Well, that's obviously after the

384
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,600
moment that I'm interested in.
And you'll tell me about things

385
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,480
that you always do rather than
things that were happening right

386
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,680
then and things that you, that
you want me to hear instead of

387
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,040
what was actually going on.
And you'll tell me about all

388
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,800
kinds of stuff that's not
directly apprehended.

389
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,200
And I will point that out to
you.

390
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,320
And I, and I would say, tab,
you're not telling me about what

391
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,800
I'm what, what I'm asking about.
I'm, I'm really interested in

392
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,000
what was actually going on with
you.

393
00:22:55,280 --> 00:23:00,440
And my art is to, is to be
confrontational like that.

394
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,560
So I, I will be very
confrontational, but I say, you

395
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:07,200
know, that's not, not experience
that, but the art of it is to be

396
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,400
confrontational and have you
recognize that I'm on your side

397
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,640
in, in this regard.
I'm not being critical of you

398
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,120
because I will tell you nobody
is any good at it on the first

399
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:18,440
day.
And I'm not very good at asking

400
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,640
questions about your experience
on the first day either because

401
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,560
I've never, I don't know what
your experience is going to be

402
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,200
like.
So we have to learn together how

403
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,680
to how to do this, which I call
the iterative process that we're

404
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,560
going to, we're going to get
better at it as as we go.

405
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,120
Yeah, Russ, those and so sorry I
cut you off there.

406
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,040
This was back in the 1970s.
My one of the questions I

407
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,000
thought about many years ago
when I when I saw this work come

408
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,800
out was as a as a young, let's
say up and Comer.

409
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,240
What, what, what actually made
you think that this would work?

410
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,800
Because obviously when people
grew up in certain philosophical

411
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,720
views, particularly someone
who's a fan of BF Skinner, you

412
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,400
have a certain behaviour as
outlook on life.

413
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:06,200
At what point did you think that
these idiosyncratic detailed

414
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,320
descriptions, rather than these
broader generalizations would

415
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,680
give us these fine grained
details about someone's inner

416
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:19,360
experience?
I don't know the answer to that.

417
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:22,600
I think I'll, I'll tell you some
stories and you can, and you can

418
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,160
speculate as well as I can about
that.

419
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,760
I was, I was trained as an
engineer.

420
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,880
I have an engineering, a
master's degree in engineering.

421
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:40,000
And so I have AI have a an
appreciation for knowing,

422
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,800
knowing what I'm doing.
That's what engineers are trying

423
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:42,720
to do.
You know, they're trying to

424
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,520
build a bridge that actually
doesn't fall into the lake.

425
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,440
And so, so and, and, and I was
an aeronautical engineer.

426
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,720
So you want to, you want to
build airplanes that actually do

427
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,560
fly.
So you, you take seriously what

428
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,960
you know and what you don't know
and how much you know so that

429
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,720
you can sleep because you know
people are going to be on your

430
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:04,320
airplane and, and you want to be
able to sleep with the knowledge

431
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,400
that they're going to be able to
take off and land with an

432
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:13,080
incident.
So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm in the, I

433
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:22,160
exist clearly in the real world.
And I, I after, after I worked

434
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,480
as an engineer for a while, I
decided I wanted to really be a

435
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,280
trumpet player, a classical
trumpet player.

436
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:33,520
And so that was Vietnam time.
And I was, I was working as, as

437
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,040
an aeronautical engineer for a
company that built nuclear

438
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,040
weapons that was keeping me out
of the Army basically.

439
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,280
But if I wanted to be a trumpet
player, then I, I didn't have

440
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,360
much choice in the, in the
matter except to join the Army.

441
00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:49,760
So I joined the Army and
audition for the United States

442
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,840
Army Band, which is the
official, what they call the

443
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,440
Special band of the in in the
United States Army.

444
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,320
And it's stationed in Fort Myer,
VA, which is adjacent to

445
00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:03,800
Arlington Cemetery, which is
right across the Potomac River

446
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,560
from Washington, DC.
So basically I spent three years

447
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:11,200
in the environs of Washington
and my job, much of it became

448
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,000
playing Taps in Arlington
Cemetery for people who were

449
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,480
killed in Vietnam.
And that job involved sitting in

450
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,360
my car and the cemetery waiting
for a funeral to arrive.

451
00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:26,400
So I drive to where the funeral
was going to be, and then I'd

452
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,720
wait and the funeral would
arrive and I would get out of

453
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,080
out of my car and play taps and
get back in my car and drive to

454
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,040
the next place and wait there.
So I spent a lot of time waiting

455
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,880
in my car and I would went to
the Arlington County Library and

456
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,000
and put a arm load of books in
my car to give me something to

457
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,400
do while I waited.
And the books were everything

458
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,360
that a engineer doesn't get a
chance to read, which would have

459
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:52,480
been history and literature and
philosophy and psychology and

460
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,720
sociology and mathematician peer
peer math and whatever.

461
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:02,000
And eventually I discovered that
I had read the entire psychology

462
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,280
collection.
So I had read all the original

463
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,800
sources in psychology as curated
by the Arlington County Library

464
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,560
and, and what I my reading.
So I'm still trying to answer

465
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,960
your question, I think.
And, but the, but what I found

466
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,480
was that the, the books in
psychology started out by

467
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,360
saying, I'm going to tell you
something really interesting

468
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:25,040
about people.
And then I'd read the book and

469
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:26,960
I'd get to the end and I'd say,
well, I didn't learn anything

470
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:28,360
that was really interesting
about people.

471
00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:32,040
I learned some theory about it
that was not that was not good

472
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,320
enough for me.
So I developed in that I

473
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:40,960
developed an appreciation for
really wanting to know about

474
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,720
individual people.
I wanted to I wanted some access

475
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,440
to to something that I thought
was real.

476
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,520
That's my engineering band, I
suppose.

477
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,760
And my musical band, I suppose
is I have AI have an

478
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,360
appreciation for the way things
sound and look and whatever.

479
00:27:56,360 --> 00:28:02,760
And, and then I went back to, I
went back to Sandy where I

480
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,000
worked for a while and worked as
a computer person in there as a

481
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,320
aeronautical engineer
department.

482
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:14,320
And one of my jobs there was to
maintain the computers, which at

483
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,600
at that time were big, big
things.

484
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,800
This is the 70s.
And, and they, they gave me a, a

485
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,400
version of BASIC.
I don't know whether you know

486
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,200
anything about computers, but
BASIC was those sort of the

487
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:32,000
first language for operating
systems of, of computers.

488
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,680
And they gave me this.
And the problem, the problem was

489
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,200
that the engineers were using
these computers to turn on

490
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,720
switches and make readings and
whatever.

491
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,760
And when something got their
particular temperature, then

492
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:41,920
they were going to flip this
switch.

493
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:43,800
And when something else
happened, they're going to flip

494
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,120
that other switch.
And the computers wouldn't keep

495
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:51,920
up because BASIC was slow.
And so they said to me basically

496
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,800
make BASIC run faster.
And they gave me a, they gave me

497
00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:00,200
the source code of, of digital
equipment basic and said, and

498
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,600
said, this is not fast enough.
And So what, what do you do

499
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,800
about that?
And, and I, what, what I did

500
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,760
about that was I hooked up an
external clock to the computer

501
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,120
and I, and I put the clock in
these guys laboratories and I

502
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,320
said, run your experiments.
Do whatever it is that you do in

503
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:20,840
this clock.
Every now and then it's going to

504
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,120
emit a signal.
And when it emits a signal, it's

505
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,000
going to keep track of what
instruction your computer is

506
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,520
operating and run that for a
while.

507
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,640
And then, and then, and you
know, it's going to store it on,

508
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,120
on a floppy disk at that time
and, and bring that floppy disk

509
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:38,280
back to me.
And then I'll try to figure out

510
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,120
what's going on.
And well, it turned out that was

511
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,320
very successful because it
pointed out where the bottleneck

512
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,800
was in digital equipment BASIC.
And I could speed up BASIC by a

513
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:53,800
factor of 10 by by improving the
way, the way that little, it was

514
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,840
a just a little section of code.
It was only like, you know, 100

515
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,720
lines worth of worth of code.
But but every it, it went that

516
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,560
it went to that little section
all the time.

517
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:10,000
And so I became a a proponent of
random sampling, which, you

518
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,920
know, I, I was an engineer, I
knew about random sampling.

519
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,160
I knew, I knew about all that
stuff.

520
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,560
But but this, but, but it was
obvious to me that this was a,

521
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,480
this was a very complicated
thing that this computer was

522
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:23,800
doing.
There was no way that I was

523
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,040
going to be able to figure it
out.

524
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,320
But random sampling was the key
to that.

525
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,760
So I'm sorry, continue.
You mix, you mix all that, you

526
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,680
mix all that stuff together and
that that's and, and, and the

527
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:43,160
readings and, and philosophy and
psychology and cognitive

528
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:44,680
psychology and behaviors and
whatever.

529
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,080
And out of that comes
descriptive experience sampling.

530
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,480
The rest with with DES or
descriptive experience sampling.

531
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:01,600
Some might argue, let's say that
if you take or if you ask people

532
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:06,760
about their thoughts, isn't it
too subjective?

533
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,320
Let's say you're trying to
critically analyze someone's

534
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,600
thoughts.
Whether it's, whether it's

535
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,200
random, whether it's not.
How objective is this, or is it

536
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,000
too subjective?
How do you generally respond?

537
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,680
Well, if you ask somebody about
their thoughts, then I would, I

538
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,480
would be absolutely as critical
as you would as you might be

539
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,960
about that because that's a
mentalistic question you're

540
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,560
asking.
You're asking, you're asking

541
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,000
about, you're presuming that
there are thoughts that are

542
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,360
going on and ask somebody to
tell you about them and people

543
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,800
being nice guys and cooperative
and whatever they will tell you,

544
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,960
they will tell you about that.
And the answer that they give

545
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,120
you is mostly baloney because
you've asked about a mentalism

546
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,760
and they've given you a
mentalistic explanation, which

547
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,080
makes sense to them, but it
probably doesn't have anything

548
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,120
to do with anything really.
And I'm just parroting Skinner

549
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:58,120
there, assenting to what what
Skinner had to say.

550
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,480
So that's that, that's not the
that's not a question that that

551
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,520
is worthy of being asked the
question.

552
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:10,000
It's a different question to ask
what was going on, what, if

553
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,000
anything was going on in your
experience at some particular

554
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,800
moment that I want to.
I want to know what you are

555
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,880
directly apprehending.
I don't want to know about your

556
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,040
thoughts.
I don't know about thoughts.

557
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:22,680
You don't know about thoughts.
Nobody knows about thoughts.

558
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,280
There are a lot of people who
write a lot of crap about

559
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,440
thoughts, but nobody knows what
they're really talking about.

560
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,960
I don't think they have some
theories about them, which a lot

561
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,880
of people confuse as being about
things that were actually

562
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,600
happening in some mind
somewhere, which maybe they are.

563
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,800
I don't know anything about it.
I don't think they do either.

564
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,880
But that's I that they
criticized me for the questions

565
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,000
that they ask, which is not the
questions that I ask.

566
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,480
The question that I ask is the
same question over and over

567
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,200
again.
What do you directly apprehend

568
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,600
as being ongoing before the
Footlights of your

569
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,040
consciousness, whatever that
means, but directly apprehended,

570
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,320
that's a synonym for before the
Footlights of your consciousness

571
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:06,520
for me at a particular moment.
And that is not tell me about

572
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,720
your thoughts, that is about
whatever it is that you happen

573
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,880
to be apprehending.
If that's a thought, well then

574
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,680
tell me about a thought.
If it's a feeling, tell me about

575
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,160
a feeling.
If it's a sensation, tell me

576
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,480
about that.
Whatever it is that is directly

577
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:26,640
apprehended, then tell me.
So Russ, it's the 1970s.

578
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,680
You start, you create these
beepers, such a ground breaking

579
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,040
thought experiments and then you
apply this practically.

580
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,640
What have been the most
surprising or counterintuitive

581
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,840
findings from DES SO?
You broke up a little bit.

582
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:44,920
What was the end of that
sentence?

583
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,000
What has been surprising about?
I was saying that it's the

584
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,000
1970s.
You make this beeper, you start

585
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,320
to experiment to people, and DES
reveals certain things about

586
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,440
experience.
What have been the most

587
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,840
surprising or counterintuitive
findings of your descriptive

588
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,160
experience openly?
OK, so I think the answer to

589
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:10,760
that is almost everything.
And, and by almost everything, I

590
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,719
mean I, I mean that with not a
hint of irony.

591
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,360
The when I started out, I was
interested in thoughts.

592
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,080
I would have asked the question,
you know what?

593
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,080
Tell me about your thoughts.
And when people, when people

594
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,120
started telling me about they,
they were telling me about stuff

595
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:27,840
that weren't, that weren't
thoughts.

596
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:36,880
So that was surprising.
And, and whenever and, and I

597
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,840
would, I would say, and this is
an absolutely true, not ironic

598
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,040
statement.
Whenever I feel like I know what

599
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,400
I'm talking about, I'm generally
demonstrated to be wrong by the

600
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,760
next guy that I sample with.
And, and, and, and I've had,

601
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:58,000
I've had to cultivate that over
the, over the years that, that

602
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,400
the, when, when a feeling arises
in me, like I know what I'm

603
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,480
talking about.
I know I'm in deep trouble

604
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:04,680
because I'm not going to hear
anything.

605
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,800
I'm not going to hear what you
are going to tell me about your

606
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,760
inner experience anymore.
I'm going to hear what confirms

607
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:15,800
my, my theory.
So I, I would say a big part of

608
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:21,280
my art, if you want to call it
that, my big part of my art is

609
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:26,200
recognizing when that feeling of
I know what I'm talking about

610
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,320
arises and then working against
that.

611
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,720
I'd say that's a very big part
about what I do.

612
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,120
But but almost almost everything
is surprising.

613
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:41,320
I some some surprises are bigger
than others, but well.

614
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:48,680
One one of the things was you
found that inner experience, for

615
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,600
example, occurs less often than
many people assume.

616
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,720
Now what does that actually tell
us about how the human mind

617
00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:59,920
actually works?
So that's not true.

618
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:02,520
What you just what you just said
is not a characteristic

619
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:06,440
characterization of my work
because what I have found what

620
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,600
what I took you to say was that
inner experience occurs less

621
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,240
frequently than people think.
That's not I.

622
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,240
Meant in a speech.
That that I would agree with.

623
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:16,160
No, that, that that.
But.

624
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,000
In a speech.
That's what I thought you meant,

625
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,360
but what I want to ask, I want
to answer your first question

626
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,920
too, because it's actually an
interesting question, probably

627
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,680
more interesting than the inner
speech question, but but inner

628
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,960
experience does occur.
Most people most of the time

629
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,240
have something going on and, and
what that and what's going on is

630
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:39,400
their own creation.
It is not, it is not just simply

631
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,640
what's falling on their retina
or falling on their stirrups and

632
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,920
anvil or whatever.
Whatever is, whatever their

633
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:53,520
apparatus is, they're, they have
created something and, and it is

634
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,880
there in front of the Footlights
of and that's true for most

635
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,480
people, most of the time.
There are some exceptions about

636
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,720
that.
There are some people who have

637
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,760
basically nothing going on in
their inner experience and

638
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,720
they're totally successful
people, but they're the

639
00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:10,640
exception rather than the rule.
Most people have something going

640
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:17,600
on and that that is a, a
fundamentally interesting thing.

641
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,040
And, and, and the thing that
they have going on is, is their

642
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,120
own creation.
That's, that's also

643
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,680
fundamentally important for me.
And by their own creation, I

644
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,520
don't, I don't mean that they,
they sit down and say, well, I

645
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,520
think I'll create something and
then I'm going to review it.

646
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:41,640
What I mean is they're, they're,
they are choosing what is of

647
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,280
interest to them out of the
welter of things that are, that

648
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,200
are possibly out there.
They're, they're paying

649
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,080
attention to this and not to and
not to that other thing, which

650
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:53,360
is why I call it inner
experience.

651
00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:57,200
So but your question was about
the people don't have a lot of

652
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,200
inner speech.
The remarkable thing about that

653
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,440
is that everybody thinks they do
have inner speech.

654
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,680
And the question is, well, why
is it that everybody thinks they

655
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,680
do have inner speech?
And one possible answer to that

656
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,360
would be, well, because
everybody does have inner

657
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,760
speech, but that turns out not
to be true.

658
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:19,120
It turns out that my research I
think pretty robustly shows, but

659
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:24,280
some people, a few people do
have inner speech a lot and most

660
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,560
and a lot of people have inner
speech occasionally and some

661
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,200
people have inner speech almost
never heard.

662
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,520
And so if you take all of the
samples that I have collected in

663
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,760
my non random 500 or a
thousandish people that I've

664
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:40,840
sampled, sampled with maybe 1/4
of the samples include inner

665
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:47,720
speech.
And, and, and that is because,

666
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:52,480
well, so if your question is
why, why do people think that

667
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,880
they have inner speech a lot?
I think there's two reasons for

668
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,560
their, there are many reasons,
but two that I will tell you,

669
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:02,680
maybe I'll tell you more. 11 is
when you pose the question to

670
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,240
yourself, what I call the
armchair introspection question.

671
00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:10,680
What's going on in my experience
now that generally starts as a

672
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,600
verbal question.
What's going on?

673
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:17,040
In my experience now UN quote
which puts you into a verbal

674
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,120
whatever, it puts you into the
verbal realm.

675
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,040
So almost like a linguistic
experience sort of changes the

676
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,400
way or the part of the brain
you're kind of using.

677
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,520
That I that I don't know too
much about, but but but yes,

678
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,200
what it does, it awakens
whatever part of the brain is

679
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,160
required to do to do verbal
stuff.

680
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,160
It it, it, it does that.
I don't know what, what that

681
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:47,600
part of the brain is, but it, it
puts you into a verbal mode and

682
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,000
then you ask, well, what what's
going on in my inner experience?

683
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,240
And what you find is you're in a
verbal mode.

684
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,840
So more or less whenever you ask
that question, you're in a

685
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,240
verbal mode.
But that's the refrigerator

686
00:39:58,240 --> 00:39:59,760
light phenomenon.
You're only looking inside the

687
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,240
refrigerator when the doors open
and you're only looking inside

688
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:08,000
the inside your mind, whatever
that is when you, it occurs to

689
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,360
you to look inside your mind.
So that's why.

690
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,600
That's why the randomness of the
beeper is an important deal.

691
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,720
I don't want you to be looking
inside your mind when you think

692
00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:20,720
about looking inside your mind.
I want you to be looking inside

693
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:26,080
your mind at times that are
chosen by something other than

694
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:31,080
your mind, like the beeper.
Yeah, I think it's it's it's one

695
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:35,160
of those things where I look
back at a philosophy and

696
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:40,000
science, when we look at humans
and how I would say we use

697
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,240
heuristic adaptations.
We have very limited processing

698
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:45,480
powers.
And when we experience reality,

699
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:50,120
we often find these shortcuts
or, or ways to interact with

700
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:51,600
reality in a way that's
effective.

701
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:57,320
And, and in a sense to assume
that we all have this narrative

702
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,280
or this inner monologue that's
always ongoing, it's kind of

703
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,560
easier because everyone else
sort of does it.

704
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,800
It's one of these consensus
reality things when when you

705
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,880
figure this out or when you sort
of notice that people lack this

706
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,960
inner speech, how much of A
shock was that to you?

707
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,920
Or did you already have this
preconceived idea that this is

708
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:24,960
something that would happen?
Well, if you're talking about my

709
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:29,080
personal history, I would say as
best I can reflect on it 50

710
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,920
years later, I expected to find
a lot of inner speech.

711
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,560
I, I thought like everybody else
did, The thinking was in words

712
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,080
and I was interested in thinking
and therefore I thought I was

713
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,480
going to find words.
But what I, what I, what I found

714
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,320
for my satisfaction was there
wasn't thinking that was

715
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,960
actually going on.
And so that was I guess the

716
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,800
most, the first surprise.
It wasn't just the words weren't

717
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,680
there was that thinking in
general, wasn't there?

718
00:41:56,720 --> 00:42:01,680
I'm paying attention to the
colors or the feelings or, or

719
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,240
something else.
So the so by the time, by the

720
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:07,760
time I was actually focused on
words, which I never really

721
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,600
have, my work has never actually
been focused particularly on

722
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:12,760
words.
I've always been focused on

723
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,040
whatever it is that's a before
the Footlights of your

724
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:20,040
consciousness.
I'm, I'm known, I guess,

725
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:25,600
because, because the popular
culture thinks that words are

726
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,360
super important.
And I've and I've said fairly

727
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,880
consistently over a lot of years
that that's not the case.

728
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:36,320
And so I get credit for for
being a word inner speech guy,

729
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,960
but it's not really true.
Yeah, it's it's, it's almost

730
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:44,480
like the words do require so
many more conscious efforts post

731
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,360
production almost.
It's kind of like you want to

732
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,600
catch something in the spot
that's a lot further in.

733
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,120
Well, the, the, so the kinds of
things that are surprising if

734
00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:02,920
you're interested in words, what
I what I would say is that if,

735
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,440
if, if you start to look
carefully at words, these are

736
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,480
the, this is this is the
phenomenon that you're going to

737
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:13,720
find, you're going to find that
much most of the time words

738
00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:17,360
occur in complete sentences.
There's a theory, there are

739
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,480
theorists out there about inner
speech that following Bygotsky

740
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,160
who, who's thought that all
inner speech was going to be

741
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,400
condensed and you didn't really
need to have the whole subject

742
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,800
and the predicate because you
knew what you were talking

743
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:28,800
about.
So you didn't really need the

744
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,920
subject.
So I guess he thought that inner

745
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,400
speech was going to be
predicated just just the

746
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,240
predicate without the subject.
And that turns out not to be

747
00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:40,360
true for most people.
For some people it is.

748
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,800
But, but for most people
they're, they're, it's a

749
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:49,920
complete sentence.
And it turns out, So if you, if

750
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,760
you, if you really are going to
be interested in what, what

751
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,680
passes for inner speech, this,
these are the kinds of things

752
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:57,160
that you have to take into
consideration.

753
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,080
Is it a complete sense or not?
It could be one way or the

754
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,080
other.
Is it really the experience of

755
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,760
speaking or the experience of
hearing, which turns out to be

756
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,640
very different things, just as
different as when you speak into

757
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,160
a tape recorder and when you
hear your voice playback.

758
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,160
Those are two very different
things.

759
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,920
Experientially, you wouldn't
there, there's no way that you

760
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,800
would be in a position to say,
well, am I saying that or am I

761
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,160
hearing that coming back to me?
Then that's, those are, those

762
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,800
are very different and they're
very different in, in inner

763
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,040
experience as well.
Philosophical, philosophical

764
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,360
types often refer to inner
speech as a auditory phenomenon,

765
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,360
as if it was really inner
hearing, which most of the time

766
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,600
it's not.
Most of the time it's more like

767
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,040
speaking than it is like
hearing.

768
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:44,800
I think you can always argue
with what I think about it, But

769
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,320
but, and, and, and I wouldn't, I
would also, I want, I want to

770
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,160
give you the opinion.
I want to give you a

771
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,360
characterization of the richness
of this phenomenon.

772
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,360
Sometimes there are words
missing and they can be the most

773
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,160
important words.
So you can have, you can speak

774
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:00,240
a, a complete sentence without
one particular word in it or

775
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,400
several different words in it,
or you can speak without having

776
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,040
any words.
You can have the experience of

777
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,400
speaking with no words at all.
I'm, I'm speaking them.

778
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:11,920
Sometimes they'll be a rhythm to
it.

779
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,080
Sometimes they'll just I
experienced myself a speaking,

780
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:15,720
but I don't experience the words
that I'm speaking.

781
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:21,120
Sometimes you will people will
experience the words as having a

782
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,280
physical location.
Sometimes it's in their head,

783
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:24,720
sometimes it's in the back of
their head.

784
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,880
The expression, the I was
thinking it in the back of my

785
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:30,760
mind.
For some people, it is

786
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,840
absolutely meant literally.
For other people, it's entirely

787
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,480
metaphorical because the
metaphor, the metaphor has come

788
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,120
to be the predominant way that
that's understood.

789
00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:43,760
I'm not really interested in
that, but I'm I'm thinking about

790
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,240
it in the back of my mind.
For some people, it's actually

791
00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:49,560
there.
I've written about one woman who

792
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,640
who had sentences that divided
up.

793
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,040
Some were the first couple of
words in the sentence would be

794
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:56,120
in the back of the head and the
next word would be in the front

795
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:57,760
of the head and the next word
would be in the back of the head

796
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:04,200
and back and forth like that.
Sometimes you can speak in your

797
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,720
own voice, and sometimes you can
speak in Barbra Streisand's

798
00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:12,080
voice or.
I think, I think that's one of

799
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,400
the most fascinating things
about studying the human

800
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,360
experience.
I often say that to not consider

801
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,880
a typical phenomenon or or
pathological states of mind, you

802
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:27,640
often make a very misinformed
opinion on what reality is for

803
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,440
human beings.
So all the human experience and

804
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,600
my work in psychiatry, when I
used to work in psychiatry, I

805
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:38,240
often found that when you study
the atypical mind, you have so

806
00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:41,840
much more access to various
states of mind.

807
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,760
And I know for you, for example,
studying patients like the ones

808
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,080
you just mentioned or someone
with schizophrenia, maybe a

809
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:53,560
borderline personality when you
look at these patients.

810
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:58,400
Because for me, it makes a lot
of sense that someone would not

811
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,360
have an inner speech when in a
dialogue because I've interacted

812
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:03,840
with patients who have said that
to me.

813
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,960
Maybe they weren't as accurate
as I hoped.

814
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:11,120
But when that first happened to
you, what, what did that feel

815
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,120
like?
Was it a was it a very strange

816
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,880
moment to have this random
statistic that, OK, most people

817
00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:22,320
we expect to talk to themselves
or experience this feeling of

818
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,520
having it in his speech just
don't have it?

819
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:29,480
Was it very shocking to you or
was it just a normal walk in the

820
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:33,320
park type of thing?
So, so I want to push back on

821
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,480
the premise of your question 1st
and that is the, all of those

822
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,920
things that that I listed that
that's normal experience.

823
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,560
This is not, this is not
impatient.

824
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:45,920
This is, this is people that
you're going to walk, that

825
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:47,640
you're going to run across when
you walk from here to the

826
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,320
grocery store, you're going to,
you're going to run across

827
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,440
people who have those
characteristics that I now,

828
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:59,160
people who have, who have
disturbed inner experience have

829
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,680
a lot of other kinds of
characteristics as well.

830
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:06,720
And, and, and, and they're all
fascinating.

831
00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:11,400
They're but for me personally,
they're not that much more

832
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,880
fascinating than the everyday
non pathological they're.

833
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,960
So I, I think inner experience
is of vital importance in

834
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:28,000
understanding psychopathology.
I don't think psychological

835
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,120
science, psychiat, psychiatry
understands inner experience

836
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,840
very well.
And if they did, they'd have a

837
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,320
better idea about
psychopathology, I think.

838
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,040
And it might be very, very
different from what it is that,

839
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,440
that, that we do now, you know,
we divide people up into this is

840
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,600
the depressed camp and this is
the anxiety camp, and this is

841
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,440
the bulimia and the roast camp
or whatever we're going to.

842
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:52,520
We, we, we get into the
diagnostic categories based on

843
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,920
external, mostly externally
observable thing.

844
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,800
My guess is that there might be
more productive if we had a

845
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,880
real, a real science of inner
experience, which we don't from

846
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,680
my point of view.
But if we did that, would we

847
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:10,480
divide people up into different
categories or we would probably

848
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,280
even abandoned categories all
together and.

849
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,040
It's kind of disappointing
because we know that we use

850
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:23,560
certain classification systems
like the DSM, the ICD, We go

851
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,400
through all these processes and
yet there's so much data like

852
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:31,240
the work you've done and many
others with that, that sort of

853
00:49:31,240 --> 00:49:35,360
show that human experience is so
diverse with so much variation

854
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:39,640
and difference that to actually
box certain experiences is such

855
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,000
a flaw and and yet we always do
it.

856
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,600
Does that still surprise you?
It doesn't surprise me.

857
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,400
It disappoints me greatly, but
it doesn't surprise me.

858
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:54,240
And it is what if?
If you want to know what really

859
00:49:54,240 --> 00:49:56,960
surprised me about the whole,
the whole thing is that there

860
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,120
aren't, there aren't just a
whole lot of people doing what

861
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,440
it is that I do or better.
When I, I wrote my first book,

862
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,720
which was in 1990, my first book
about about inner experience,

863
00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:09,720
which is in 1990, I thought I
just put myself out of a job.

864
00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:12,880
I thought, you know, I'd, I'd
told people what it is that,

865
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:14,880
that you could have a beeper and
you could pay attention inner,

866
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,200
inner experience and everybody
was going to do that and nobody

867
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,720
was going to care about what I
thought anymore, which just

868
00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:22,760
turned out to be absolutely not
true.

869
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,840
Nobody has really paid much
attention to any of them and any

870
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,920
of that stuff for the largely,
largely speaking.

871
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:35,360
And and that is fundamentally
surprising to me.

872
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:42,720
I just, I, it amazes me the
drug, a drug company, for

873
00:50:42,720 --> 00:50:45,120
example, making psychotropic
medications for anxiety,

874
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:47,560
depression or whatever.
I would have thought those guys

875
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,920
would be blind up outside my
door saying I, you know, I'm

876
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:52,960
going to make Prozac here and I
want to know what happens to

877
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,440
Prozac.
You should can you can you can,

878
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:59,800
you talked to some people who
were before they took Prozac and

879
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:01,880
after they took Prozac and tell
me what happened in their inner

880
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:07,120
experience.
I just, it amazes me that I

881
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:12,200
don't get those requests.
I but I don't and, and, and so

882
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:17,560
that the explanation of why that
is either either there's only

883
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,680
two possibilities. 1 is that
Hurlburt's crazy, which is fine.

884
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,480
Take take that as a as a
possibility that he's just wrong

885
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,280
about most everything.
I think that's possible.

886
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:30,640
I don't think that's true, but
I'm the I have the care capable

887
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:32,200
of delusion as much as anybody
else does.

888
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:38,040
So but but that's possible.
Or that there are forces in the,

889
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:42,720
in the social world or the
economic world or the whatever

890
00:51:42,720 --> 00:51:45,360
other world that says, well, you
just can't do what it is just

891
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:47,520
that Earl Bird says they've got
to do.

892
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:55,800
And then, Russ, have you noticed
that certain DES or inner speech

893
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,960
monologues exist more in others
and less in other subtypes?

894
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,280
So mostly I don't know the
answer to that question.

895
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:10,400
The the one of the and it and it
exposes the the weakness of the

896
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:14,120
work that I have done.
So I have not done anywhere near

897
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:19,680
enough cross cultural stuff.
I think it would be totally

898
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,440
interesting to see whether a
person who speaks Chinese and a

899
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,080
person who speaks English has
the same same processes.

900
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,960
A person who has not been
exposed to the Western

901
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:34,880
civilization in the jungles of
wherever what, what, what their

902
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,120
inner experience would like.
I I think that would be totally

903
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,040
interesting.
Absolutely totally interesting.

904
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,280
If I had another life to live,
I'd probably start start that

905
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,640
way, but it's difficult.
In my defense, it's difficult

906
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:50,080
because the DES is not a
trivially easy thing to do.

907
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,360
You got to be paying attention
pretty carefully to what people

908
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:55,600
say and how they say it and what
they don't say.

909
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:56,960
And you.
So you got to know the culture

910
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:00,560
and you got to know the language
and you got to, you got to be

911
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,360
willing to hear and willing and
able to hear what people are

912
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:09,240
saying and not and not saying.
And so it to the thought of

913
00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:15,920
doing DES through translation is
a little bit is a little bit

914
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,320
scary to me and.
The, the reason why I ask that

915
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:21,560
question, Ross, is I'm not sure
if you're familiar with this,

916
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:26,240
but I'm, I'm a huge fan of, of
magic illusions, tricks of the

917
00:53:26,240 --> 00:53:28,520
mind.
And, and something I always

918
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,200
found fascinating was, well,
visual illusions.

919
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:35,040
For example, when you take a
psychiatric patient with

920
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,280
schizophrenia.
And I'm not, I'm not trying to

921
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:40,840
say that these experience have
to be psychiatric or mental

922
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:43,880
illness, but the human
experience is so diverse, as we

923
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:48,560
just discussed that it's quite
cool that certain patients who

924
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:52,680
have psychosis, let's say, and,
and are currently acutely

925
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:56,760
psychotic, they don't fall for
certain visual illusions, which

926
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:58,800
is quite interesting.
So if you take the checkerboard

927
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:02,200
illusion and you put put a
psychiatric patient there, they,

928
00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:06,920
they don't see the difference in
Shades of Grey that the average

929
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,800
human would see.
And so if you take that in a

930
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,880
philosophical way, you can
almost say that they have a

931
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:17,560
better understanding of the
veridical nature of reality than

932
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,880
we do.
So it's a fascinating question

933
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:25,040
in the sense that not only does
cultural diversity or

934
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,960
neurodiversity play a role in
how we perceive reality, but

935
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:33,640
reality in itself is very much
subjective.

936
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,920
And, and whenever someone thinks
they're seeing a vertical truth,

937
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,920
that's still always up for
debate because no one

938
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,480
technically does.
Is that something you ever think

939
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:47,560
about or?
Absolutely, absolutely.

940
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,360
So I, I agree with almost every
everything that you said, except

941
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:54,000
possibly that people who are
seriously disturbed see things

942
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,200
more accurately.
I'm, I don't, I don't think, I

943
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,800
think that might be true in a,
in a pretty narrow, narrow

944
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,760
sense.
So the, the, the way I

945
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:10,680
conceptualize that is I think
that most people, most, most

946
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:11,760
perception, let's put it this
way.

947
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,760
If you, if you ask a perceptual
psychologist, they would say,

948
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,640
since the Gestalt psychologist
of the 1910s or whatever and

949
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:22,960
onwards would say that people
are people have a figure in the

950
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:24,200
ground.
That the figure ground

951
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:27,120
phenomenon is the fundamental
perceptual deal.

952
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,120
And the figure is a sort of a
coherent thing that's usually in

953
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:32,240
the center of the visual field
if we're talking about vision.

954
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:36,200
And what's in the ground is
around that usually, and it's

955
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,840
not usually seen as distinct.
And if there's a border between

956
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:43,080
the visual visual figure in the
ground, the border belongs to

957
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:44,480
the figure and doesn't belong to
the ground.

958
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,640
And whatever all that stuff is
has been known since that time,

959
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:56,200
you know, and, and I have
written about people who have,

960
00:55:56,240 --> 00:55:58,080
who do not have a figure ground
phenomenon.

961
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:01,440
And they're, they're pretty
seriously disturbed.

962
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:07,000
And, and, and I think that I
think that's a fundamental

963
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:13,720
observation.
And, and, and what, what that

964
00:56:13,720 --> 00:56:17,400
allows them to do is to see like
10 or 10 or 20 different things

965
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,560
going on at the same time.
Because the bigger ground

966
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:22,480
phenomenon is basically to take
the whole welter of perception,

967
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:27,200
make one thing, figure out what
that one thing is and put

968
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:28,960
everything else back into the
background.

969
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:35,760
That and I and I think that sort
of healthy everyday people do

970
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:39,880
that kind of thing a lot.
And so the so you pay attention

971
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,080
to my voice and then you pay
attention to the book that's on

972
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,240
like over my shoulder.
And then you pay attention to

973
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:46,200
the itch that's on the neck that
you just scratched.

974
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,640
And then you pay attention to
that and your experience goes

975
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:51,000
all over the place.
And each time you're making

976
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:52,800
something in the figure and
everything else is going to the

977
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,480
ground.
So when you pay attention to

978
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:58,400
your itch, you destroy Hurlburt.
And when you when you're paying

979
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,320
attention to Hurlburt and the
itch doesn't matter.

980
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:02,720
And then when the itch 10s comes
back and then Hurlburt, then you

981
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:05,080
destroy Hurlburt.
And so all this time is I'm

982
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:06,520
creating this and destroying
that.

983
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:12,480
That's normal human perception.
But in abnormality, I think that

984
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:14,640
break or that breaks down or
doesn't happen.

985
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,520
And so I've sampled with a with
some schizophrenic individuals.

986
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:21,880
My first book is actually about
schizophrenia in a way.

987
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,160
It's about more about Sam more
more about whether you should do

988
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:27,800
sampling.
But it involves some

989
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:33,120
schizophrenia people and the
their their visual environment

990
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:37,800
is not the way I just described
it.

991
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,440
So their, their visual
environment bends around to some

992
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:46,520
degree or they splatter.
There's like their thing, their

993
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:50,800
visual experiences splattered
and things splattered on it.

994
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:56,840
So, so let me, let me merge back
away from this.

995
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:00,480
So most, most people, including
most philosophers, I think,

996
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:04,120
think, think about the visual
experiences and at least inner

997
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,360
experience and maybe external
experience as well as seeing an

998
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,760
image.
I think that's, I think that's

999
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:14,200
bad, bad way to think about the
world because I don't, because

1000
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,560
it, it's a Cartesian view and it
says that the, the, the mind,

1001
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:19,480
whatever that is, creates an
image and then some other part

1002
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:20,960
of the mind creates a viewer of
that image.

1003
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:22,360
And then you get these two
things going on there.

1004
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:24,040
And I think that's probably
baloney.

1005
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:28,560
I don't really know.
But, but I, but I think most

1006
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:32,720
people don't see an image and in
their, when they, when they see

1007
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:36,800
something in, in their inner
world that is not out there in

1008
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:38,760
the real world, they're not
seeing an image of it.

1009
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:42,040
They're just seeing it.
So if you see a castle in Spain,

1010
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:45,160
it's not like you're seeing an
image of a castle in Spain.

1011
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:48,720
You're seeing a castle in Spain,
and the castle in Spain doesn't

1012
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:51,680
happen to be there.
So I think you should talk about

1013
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:55,040
as as innerly seeing rather than
seeing an image.

1014
00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:01,880
But if you talk to a
schizophrenic individual, it

1015
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:04,920
makes sense to say that they,
they see an image because they

1016
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,560
don't see an, a castle in Spain.
They see an image of a castle in

1017
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,680
Spain which has borders to it,
and they can see the image curl

1018
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,040
around and they can see the
image float away.

1019
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:16,320
And when I was talking about the
spattering, which is what

1020
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:19,120
brought me to tell you this
story, they would say that they,

1021
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:23,040
they, they see black crap that's
on the image.

1022
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:25,680
And the image might be the
castle in Spain, but the black

1023
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:28,000
crap would be some on the castle
and some on the trees that are

1024
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,200
on the castle and some dripping
off the side of the image.

1025
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:35,240
And whatever it's it, they see
an image.

1026
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,560
And when they see you, they
don't see you.

1027
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:39,880
They don't have a perception of
seeing you.

1028
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:43,840
They have a perception of seeing
an image of you and the and, and

1029
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,120
you in the image, instead of
having a tan shirt, they it

1030
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:50,360
might have a red shirt in their
image of you because they are in

1031
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:53,760
fact seeing an image of you.
And that image might be like

1032
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:56,120
ripped in half.
And when they RIP it in half, it

1033
00:59:56,120 --> 01:00:00,480
might RIP right down the middle
of your, your, your face or, or

1034
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:04,440
whatever, which you wouldn't do
if you were seeing me, but you

1035
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:06,560
could do if you were seeing an
image of me.

1036
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:11,920
So I don't care.
I don't mostly I don't care

1037
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:14,480
about words, what I care about.
And so I don't care about the

1038
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:18,040
word image.
But what I, what I want people

1039
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:23,240
to do is to recognize that most
normalish people don't see

1040
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:25,480
images.
They innerly see things.

1041
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:29,760
I I appreciate the the
clarification about that because

1042
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:33,360
it reminds me of something that
Thomas Metziger once told me

1043
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:36,920
about when he used to say that
the self is an illusion.

1044
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:39,920
When he looks back at it, you
often regrets it.

1045
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,160
And he doesn't.
He, he, he believes he's wrong

1046
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:46,080
in certain ways, but also
doesn't like the psychological

1047
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:50,240
impact it's had on certain
people because many philosophers

1048
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:55,160
and thinkers started to believe
that certain abnormal mental

1049
01:00:55,160 --> 01:01:01,880
phenomena that justified
illusory selves almost explained

1050
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:04,640
normal selves.
If, if, if I'm explaining that

1051
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:06,480
correctly.
But he, he sort of didn't like

1052
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:09,240
that once he was at a lecture
and he, he noticed a lot of

1053
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:13,920
people from a psych ward had
entered his lecture just to

1054
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:17,160
appreciate the fact that he
would justify how many of us

1055
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:20,480
don't have a self.
But it's almost like they didn't

1056
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,640
understand the nuance of what he
was trying to say about certain

1057
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:27,440
human experiences.
And it's easy for anyone to sort

1058
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:30,840
of fit into whatever we're
talking about South the way the

1059
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:32,720
same way you're talking about an
image versus the actual

1060
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:36,440
experience of it.
Two people might not necessarily

1061
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:40,760
have that same first person
subjective experience, but it

1062
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:45,200
might sound or seem similar when
we describe it.

1063
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,040
So that's an interesting story
and I got a couple of reactions

1064
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:56,040
to that 11 is it it is the case
that whenever I describe inner

1065
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:59,920
phenomenon to somebody that took
the modal response to that is

1066
01:01:59,920 --> 01:02:01,560
oh, oh, yeah, I know exactly
what you're talking about.

1067
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:03,600
I know for a fact they don't
know what the fuck I'm talking

1068
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:07,280
about.
They're they couldn't possibly,

1069
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:09,680
but they but people believe that
they do.

1070
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:15,720
So I I'm on Mexico side, Mexican
side about that.

1071
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:21,440
I don't that well, the end.
That's one thing.

1072
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:31,560
Another thing is the self is a
mentalism and I think it's risky

1073
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:34,240
to delve into the mentalism
world.

1074
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:35,880
So I don't know anything about
selves.

1075
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:38,360
I doubt that.
If, if you ask me, if I had to

1076
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:42,680
bet, you know, like, yeah, I'm
at the gate, I'm at the, I'm at

1077
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:45,560
the pearly gates and, and, and
the question is you can come in.

1078
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:47,920
If you give me the correct
answer, whether there is a self

1079
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:50,000
or not, then if you get the
wrong answer, then you're going

1080
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:52,480
to spend the rest of your life
in nether regions.

1081
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:56,680
If I I would say there probably
is not a self, but I don't know.

1082
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:58,280
I don't know the answer to that
question.

1083
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:01,200
I would have preferred to Saint
Peter asked me if I knew the

1084
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,360
answer to that question and I
confidently say no, then I could

1085
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:08,040
probably get in, but I don't.
I don't know the answer.

1086
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:12,040
But the problem, the problem
that he's telling you about is

1087
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:15,600
that if you define the self,
then you get people who are into

1088
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:18,280
it some kind of an argument
about whether the self exists.

1089
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:20,560
And everybody's got a different
definition of what the self is.

1090
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:23,080
If you try to define the self,
you're in real trouble.

1091
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:25,960
I spent quite a number of years
early, very early on in my

1092
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:29,880
career wrestling with this
issue, trying to could it, could

1093
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:31,840
I, you know, people wanted to
tell me about themselves.

1094
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:35,440
And was that really true for
most people, what that meant?

1095
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:42,280
And I think most people, most,
most people have stories about

1096
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:46,080
themselves, but they very rarely
occur in inner experience.

1097
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:52,120
And so my work is to say, you
know, I, I, I would prefer to

1098
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:54,280
limit myself to talking about
things that I know what I'm

1099
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:56,360
talking about.
And the self is not one of them.

1100
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:00,280
And the, the reason why that
came up, that came to my mind as

1101
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:03,680
well was everything about DES or
the way everything you're

1102
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:09,160
talking about reminds me of a
certain paper that Thomas wrote

1103
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:12,280
about mind wandering.
And he was sitting with two

1104
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:18,480
people, 2 professors discussing
the fact that every time you

1105
01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:20,600
talk to them and you ask them
exactly what are you thinking

1106
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:23,760
about right now, Almost always
people are incorrect.

1107
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:29,480
People are incorrect usually
when they when they're directly

1108
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:32,120
asked about that question, which
is fascinating because that is

1109
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:35,960
the main premise of this current
talk is is this current

1110
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:38,200
subjective encounter with that
moment.

1111
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:43,080
But when people try to recollect
what they were talking about,

1112
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:45,280
more often than not, they're
wrong.

1113
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:47,400
So.
So I guess my question would be

1114
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:52,880
how is DS different and almost
more reliable?

1115
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:58,080
So I agree with the premise of
this question that people, that

1116
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:00,840
people are mostly mistaken when
they think about their own inner

1117
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:03,680
experience.
So doubling back to one of your

1118
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:05,520
earlier questions, what is
surprising about that?

1119
01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:08,000
What is surprising to me about
the work that I've done?

1120
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:10,040
That's one of them.
The people, the people for the

1121
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:11,760
most part don't know about their
inner experience.

1122
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:15,280
I wouldn't have expected that, I
don't think 50 years ago now.

1123
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:18,680
I think that's maybe the
fundamental thing that I have

1124
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:22,400
established to my satisfaction
is the people, people are

1125
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:24,400
largely mistaken about their own
inner experience.

1126
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:30,440
And so the, the question of why
is the question of armchair

1127
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:33,920
introspection?
So the, the problem, the problem

1128
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,320
with armchair introspection is
that it's, it's an impossible

1129
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:40,440
task because armchair
introspection at its heart is

1130
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:42,840
something like, I'm going to ask
myself the question, what's

1131
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:44,480
going on in my inner experience
right now.

1132
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:47,680
But I'm going to rule out the
fact that I'm asking myself the

1133
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:49,400
question, what's going on in
inner experience right now,

1134
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:52,160
because that doesn't count.
I'm looking for something beyond

1135
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:54,800
that.
But the problem is that when

1136
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:56,560
you're asking yourself that
question, there isn't anything

1137
01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:59,240
beyond it.
And so if you're really sort of

1138
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:03,440
honest about that, the answer to
your question is either nothing

1139
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:09,480
is in my experience or I'm
asking myself the question, but

1140
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:11,520
I don't know anything at all
about what's what.

1141
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:13,840
My normal everyday in your
experience is when I'm not

1142
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:17,240
asking myself that question.
So I'm very critical of armchair

1143
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:20,760
introspection, including by
philosophers who who make their

1144
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:22,400
career and I'm armchair
introspection.

1145
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:27,440
I don't think, I don't, I don't
think I, I think it's, I think

1146
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:29,560
it's very difficult to do, let's
put it that way.

1147
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:31,080
I, I do think that it's
possible.

1148
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:35,240
So I think I think the adept
meditators are armchair

1149
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:38,720
introspectors who have learned
how to do it after 10,000 hours

1150
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:44,160
of trying and and and.
And, and do you think, do you

1151
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:45,880
think they successfully cracked
that code?

1152
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:49,240
Do you think that they reach a
point where they're really good?

1153
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:52,280
But but their but their inner
experience is way different from

1154
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:57,760
the from everybody else's.
But I but I didn't get to the

1155
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:00,000
answer to the to the question is
why?

1156
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:03,040
The second part of your question
is why is DES better?

1157
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:06,120
And the answer is there's
several, several reasons.

1158
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:10,760
One is it uses a beep and people
say, oh, that's the magic beep.

1159
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:12,840
Rover thinks he's got a magic
beeper, which he doesn't.

1160
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:18,000
But what it what the beep has
characteristics which are

1161
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:22,400
entirely useful.
One is it has a fast rise time.

1162
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:30,040
The beep goes from nothing to
something in, you know, within

1163
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:34,800
within a few milliseconds.
Couple couple 7 hundredths of a

1164
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:38,920
second few few milliseconds, it
goes from something to nothing.

1165
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:45,000
And so, so it, so it, it, it
clearly defines the time.

1166
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:47,600
Now, when you hear that, when
you hear the beep, there's a lot

1167
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:50,320
of processing that goes on.
So that I'm, I'm not saying that

1168
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:51,960
you hear the beep exactly the
way the beep is.

1169
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:55,600
I don't think that's true.
Your brain, whatever has to

1170
01:07:55,600 --> 01:08:00,400
process that beep, but somewhere
within probably on the order of

1171
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:03,400
1/4 of a second or something
like that, we have gone from

1172
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:05,720
nothing to something.
And you, you said yet that

1173
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:09,160
that's the beep.
So that's one thing fast rise

1174
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:11,120
time.
The next thing is that the beep

1175
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:15,000
means one and only one thing.
It means pay attention to by

1176
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:16,920
inner experience right now
without having to ask the

1177
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:19,680
question, pay attention to what
am I thinking about right now?

1178
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:22,040
It means what am I thinking
about right now?

1179
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:26,040
And, and we're going to have
some practice because I didn't

1180
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:30,399
say when back half an hour ago
when I described the, the

1181
01:08:30,399 --> 01:08:33,240
process on, on the first thing,
you're not going to be very good

1182
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:34,640
at it.
So then we're going to do it

1183
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:36,880
again and you're still not going
to be very good at it.

1184
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:38,880
And then we're going to do it
again and on the third day of

1185
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:40,359
it, then you might be pretty
good at it.

1186
01:08:40,359 --> 01:08:43,000
That is a fundamentally
important thing, which I call

1187
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:45,720
the iterative process.
I think you need that kind of

1188
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:48,760
stuff.
You need to learn whatever that

1189
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:50,000
means.
I don't know what that means,

1190
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:53,560
but you need to acquire the
skill of paying attention to

1191
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:56,800
what that is in your experience
right then and nothing else.

1192
01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:59,160
Got to know what experience is.
You got to know when the what,

1193
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:01,800
what the what the beat means.
That takes time.

1194
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:04,479
Skill you got, you got to
acquire that skill.

1195
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:11,040
So the beep means pay attention
to my inner experience right now

1196
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:13,279
and nothing and nothing else.
And it and it happens

1197
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:17,439
immediately.
So that's two things that makes

1198
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:19,479
my method, I think, more
believable.

1199
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:23,240
And the third is then you're
going to tell me about it and

1200
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:25,359
I'm a pretty good at it.
Listen, I'm pretty good at

1201
01:09:25,359 --> 01:09:27,319
listening to what it is that
you're that you're telling me.

1202
01:09:27,319 --> 01:09:28,960
I'm not perfect at it by any
means.

1203
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:34,800
And I generally do these
expositional interviews with Co

1204
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:38,000
interviewers so that there's
somebody else and other than me

1205
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:40,200
who's listening to the same
thing, asking the same kind of

1206
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:43,680
questions.
And then we can disagree with

1207
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:46,520
each other, disagree with each
other, or you can say, well, you

1208
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:48,840
got a blind spot there, Russ.
And and I can say, well, you're

1209
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:50,840
probably right about that.
Why won't you ask that question

1210
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:56,440
or whatever?
So, so, so you, but what you got

1211
01:09:56,440 --> 01:09:58,320
to tell me about it.
And the reason that that's

1212
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:01,000
important is that you have
whatever presuppositions that

1213
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:03,360
you have about what your inner
experience is.

1214
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:06,120
And you're going to tell me
about your presuppositions,

1215
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:09,000
probably, rather than telling me
about your inner experience.

1216
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:15,440
And I, my art, if you want to
call it that, is to, is to be

1217
01:10:15,440 --> 01:10:18,160
sensitive to that and to, and to
be able to tell the difference

1218
01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:20,720
between when somebody is telling
me about their presuppositions

1219
01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:22,240
and tell them and when they're
telling me about their

1220
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:24,040
experience.
And we can spend the whole

1221
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:27,640
interview talking about how,
the, how I do that, but it's,

1222
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:30,920
there's nothing magic about it.
It is I, I know what people are

1223
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:32,520
sounding like when they're
telling me about experience.

1224
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:34,040
And I know what people sound
like when they're telling me

1225
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:36,200
about their presuppositions.
And and I try to get them to

1226
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:38,400
tell me when when it sounds to
me like they're talking about

1227
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:39,040
their.
Experience.

1228
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:40,920
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's definitely a

1229
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:44,480
skill that is nurtured and
eventually becomes something you

1230
01:10:44,480 --> 01:10:46,960
can sort of master.
And I remember writing a note

1231
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:52,320
when when reading your work, and
my note said that one second,

1232
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:54,880
let me just check.
You've done a great way of, of

1233
01:10:56,440 --> 01:10:58,920
almost countering subjective
biases.

1234
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:04,440
You've put in these safeguards
to assist to avoid things like

1235
01:11:04,440 --> 01:11:07,520
memory interpretation and
framing because of this very

1236
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:10,000
method you've just described.
And I thought that was a

1237
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:14,720
brilliant way to to bypass a lot
of these issues that human

1238
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:18,120
thought generates.
I think, I think that's exactly

1239
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:20,080
right.
I would, I would see it, I would

1240
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:22,160
see it the other way around.
What I, what I would say is all

1241
01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:25,040
those things that you mentioned,
those are total, total risks.

1242
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:28,800
And so my method from my
perspective is, well, what do

1243
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:31,040
you do to try to keep those
risks under control?

1244
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:33,000
You use a beeper.
You have interviews that

1245
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:37,760
happened when that happened very
shortly after the the, so the my

1246
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:41,160
expositional interviews have to
be the same day or the next day,

1247
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:43,920
24 hours turns out to be turns
out to be sort of OK.

1248
01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:47,840
I require that you write down
something, write immediately

1249
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:51,000
after the beep to minimize the
memory, whatever.

1250
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:54,760
So all those things which which
you see are challenges to

1251
01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:58,040
subjective reports, I see as
challenges to subjective

1252
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:01,680
reports.
And DES is nothing more than and

1253
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:06,160
nothing less than my attempt to
try to keep those under control

1254
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:09,040
as much as I can.
And I think it's a great, it's

1255
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:12,600
a, it's a great way to do that
because you, you almost remove

1256
01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:16,720
the thinking and you replace it
with acting or, or, or

1257
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:21,640
experience rather than someone
thinking about the outcome or,

1258
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:25,360
or having this major cognitive
thought process prior to it.

1259
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:29,040
It's more about that subjective
phenomenal experience in the

1260
01:12:29,040 --> 01:12:33,360
moment, which then begs the
deepest question, which is

1261
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:35,400
fundamentally what this podcast
is about.

1262
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:39,960
What?
For decades your work on DAS has

1263
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:43,080
explained so many different mind
phenomena.

1264
01:12:43,480 --> 01:12:46,080
How and what do you think this
could do?

1265
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:50,680
Sorry, what could this tell us
about the mind body problem or

1266
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:53,280
this relationship between brain
and experience?

1267
01:12:53,280 --> 01:12:57,320
Do you think there's a mind body
problem and and what do you

1268
01:12:57,320 --> 01:13:00,720
think DES could provide us
toward a solution?

1269
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:04,520
So there's two things that one,
one is I want to, I want to push

1270
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:07,280
back a little bit of on on your
summary before because I don't,

1271
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:10,360
I don't think of inner
experience as being subjective.

1272
01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:14,640
I think inner experience is
every bit as objective as

1273
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:19,560
external experience.
It's private, which makes it

1274
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:22,440
problematic, but it's not
subjective.

1275
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:26,280
I don't think we can have a long
conversation about that, but I

1276
01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:28,240
just don't want to.
Sorry, before before you move

1277
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:31,440
on, you move on from that.
A question I had prior to that

1278
01:13:31,440 --> 01:13:37,400
was the role of statistics and
capturing that exact subjective

1279
01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:39,880
experience, because I know you
wrote a textbook about that.

1280
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:42,080
Maybe you would.
Maybe it's best that you

1281
01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:45,160
actually do explore that.
I I have written a textbook

1282
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:53,720
about that and that's a sort of
the, the, the work that the work

1283
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:56,240
that I do is fundamentally non
statistical.

1284
01:13:57,400 --> 01:14:01,400
I do count things, but when I
count things, I generally

1285
01:14:01,480 --> 01:14:04,240
explicitly say I don't really
care about how many of these

1286
01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:05,720
things I get.
I'm going to count them because

1287
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:09,040
I want to be able to say, well,
Tev's got sort of a lot of this

1288
01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:12,240
and not very much of that.
And if you say things like that,

1289
01:14:12,480 --> 01:14:17,040
then you then you're obligated
to count because a lot and not

1290
01:14:17,040 --> 01:14:19,320
very much is a is a county kind
of a thing.

1291
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:24,040
And so I count, but I'm also
acutely aware that I'm when, if,

1292
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:26,640
if we sample together and we do
10 days of sampling, which is a

1293
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:29,920
lot from my point of view at six
samples a day, that's only 60

1294
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:33,720
samples.
And so by the error bars around

1295
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:36,840
any frequency that I get are
going to are going to be fairly

1296
01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:40,600
high.
And so I'm, I'm just, I'm not

1297
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:45,920
interested in statistical
significance and in the, in the

1298
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:48,320
work that we're talking about
here, I write a book, the whole

1299
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:49,880
book is about statistical
significance.

1300
01:14:49,880 --> 01:14:53,400
And I wrote that back in 1990
because I wanted to be taken

1301
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:56,120
seriously.
And I knew that if I just

1302
01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:58,760
eschewed statistics all
together, that people would

1303
01:14:58,760 --> 01:15:02,320
think I was a soft headed guy
like anybody else interested in

1304
01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:04,040
consciousness.
So I said, well, I'll write a

1305
01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:08,360
statistics book and, and be
known as a, as a statistics guy

1306
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:10,080
and then they'll take me
seriously and, and what I'm

1307
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:16,160
really interested in.
So probably not a wise decision

1308
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:18,840
that I made, but that was a, a
decision that that I made.

1309
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:22,440
So I have written a statistic.
That's it over there or over

1310
01:15:22,440 --> 01:15:23,800
there.
And.

1311
01:15:24,560 --> 01:15:27,880
I think that's. 6th edition now.
That's always a good approach

1312
01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:30,440
because you you want to be taken
serious.

1313
01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:34,480
Studying this objective is never
easy and many people tend to

1314
01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:38,200
disregarded in in various
unreasonable ways.

1315
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:44,920
But how do you think DES or, or
could you explain how DES

1316
01:15:45,440 --> 01:15:48,920
bridges that gap between first
person phenomenological

1317
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:55,120
experience versus third person
objective experience?

1318
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:04,560
So I think all experience is
fundamentally first person and

1319
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:08,040
we can we can try to abstract
away the first person, this of

1320
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:11,240
it and call it third person, but
it never really is third person.

1321
01:16:13,640 --> 01:16:16,080
So what?
So my counsel would be, well,

1322
01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:19,200
let's get good at the first
person, which I don't think very

1323
01:16:19,200 --> 01:16:22,240
many people are.
And the and the And so I think

1324
01:16:22,320 --> 01:16:24,960
that the reason that I rankle at
the term subjective, I think is

1325
01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:31,920
that is that most people, most
people think that something

1326
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:34,400
that's done badly is done is
subjective.

1327
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:36,600
And I just don't think that's
necessarily true.

1328
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:40,640
I think you can, you can help
somebody become a have a pretty

1329
01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:43,320
what I would call high fidelity
observer of their own inner

1330
01:16:43,320 --> 01:16:46,280
experience.
Or I prefer apprehender rather

1331
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:48,040
than observer because of the
Cartesian stuff.

1332
01:16:48,040 --> 01:16:53,760
But the I would, I would say I
would, I think people can become

1333
01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:57,400
people start out as not knowing
what's going on in their inner

1334
01:16:57,400 --> 01:17:00,400
experience.
And after 5 or 8 days of, of

1335
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:03,760
sampling, they can, they can
come to be able to apprehend

1336
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:05,600
their inner experience as it
actually occurs.

1337
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:09,080
And that makes it as as
objective as anything else in,

1338
01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:10,600
in the world.
It's private.

1339
01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:14,920
It's only them that is seeing it
or hearing it or whatever.

1340
01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:18,560
But but it's not just a, an
opinion.

1341
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:23,640
It's so.
Well, well, Russ, that sort of,

1342
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:27,040
it sort of gives us an idea of
where your mind's at regarding

1343
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:29,840
the mind body problem.
But I asked you about that

1344
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:32,320
earlier.
Do you mind defining?

1345
01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:35,160
Do you think there's a mind body
problem, this relationship

1346
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:38,000
between brain and and
experience?

1347
01:17:38,320 --> 01:17:44,680
And do you ever think that we
could map inner experience onto

1348
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:48,360
neural correlates?
Or will some aspects always

1349
01:17:48,360 --> 01:17:54,240
resist reduction?
Well, that's a good, that's a

1350
01:17:54,240 --> 01:18:01,480
good question.
I, I have I with some colleagues

1351
01:18:01,480 --> 01:18:06,320
and, and, and Berlin and, and
the UKI.

1352
01:18:07,440 --> 01:18:11,400
We have done a small study where
we put people into the scanner,

1353
01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:16,840
into an FMR scanner and, and let
him do whatever it is that they

1354
01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:18,360
wanted to do and beat them every
now and then.

1355
01:18:18,880 --> 01:18:21,240
And then took him out of the
scanner and interviewed them the

1356
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:23,240
way I would generally interview
him and put him back in the

1357
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:25,680
scanner and took him back out
and interviewed him and put him

1358
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:27,080
back in the scanner, took him
back in the scanner.

1359
01:18:27,160 --> 01:18:31,560
So we spent people in and out of
the scanner over several,

1360
01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:35,560
several weeks, many, many times
in the scanner to see whether we

1361
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:41,400
can find something of the
correlates of, of inner

1362
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:44,880
experience.
And I guess I before I said that

1363
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:48,400
I what I one of the things that
I didn't say when I, when I was

1364
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:50,800
talking about inner speech back
in the characteristics of inner

1365
01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:54,960
speech.
One of the findings and not

1366
01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:58,480
surprising results, not
surprising results to me of the

1367
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:02,080
of the scanner.
This scanner study which my

1368
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:07,640
colleagues I have written about
is that inner speech as it

1369
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:11,000
naturally occurs, people going
about their everyday life

1370
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:13,680
sometimes engages inner speaking
and sometimes they don't.

1371
01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:16,920
That is not the same thing as
inner speech on demand.

1372
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:21,400
So almost all studies, all
psychological studies of inner

1373
01:19:21,400 --> 01:19:25,360
speech are, are on demand.
So I say say elephant or say

1374
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:28,960
pencil or recite this sentence
or whatever.

1375
01:19:29,440 --> 01:19:31,080
All right, all right, I'm
interested in reading.

1376
01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:32,640
And I show you one word and then
another word.

1377
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:35,760
And then it went 10 milliseconds
later, another word or 100

1378
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:37,440
milliseconds later, another word
and then another word.

1379
01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:41,520
That's just not you.
You I'm, I'm highly skeptical

1380
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:43,280
about whether you're going to
learn anything about what is

1381
01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:44,960
naturally occurring inner
speaking.

1382
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:49,440
So if you want to find out about
the answer to your question, the

1383
01:19:49,440 --> 01:19:53,280
mind body question, you have to
put somebody into the scanner or

1384
01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:55,960
wait around for until they
happen to have inner speaking.

1385
01:19:56,160 --> 01:20:00,160
And then if they do, then you
might be able to look at a

1386
01:20:00,160 --> 01:20:04,480
correlate between that and, and
whatever was going on in their

1387
01:20:05,320 --> 01:20:07,440
oxygen production in their
brains or whatever.

1388
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:10,360
And I so I think that's
possible.

1389
01:20:10,360 --> 01:20:15,040
And I think we did discover some
things, one of them being inner

1390
01:20:15,040 --> 01:20:18,080
speaking on demand is not the
same thing as inner speech as

1391
01:20:18,080 --> 01:20:23,520
normal inner speaking.
So I think it I think it is

1392
01:20:23,520 --> 01:20:32,120
possible to map something about.
Inner experience into neural

1393
01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:36,040
correlates, whether I think
that's going to be useful, I

1394
01:20:36,040 --> 01:20:37,440
don't think I know the answer to
that question.

1395
01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:46,280
The, the temporal resolution of
fMRI is still pretty slow.

1396
01:20:47,400 --> 01:20:50,560
You know, we're measuring in
terms of seconds and, and in,

1397
01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:54,160
in, in the world of inner
experience, a lot of stuff can

1398
01:20:54,320 --> 01:20:56,400
go all over the place in a
couple of seconds.

1399
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:03,200
So can we speed up fMRI?
You know, maybe, maybe we can.

1400
01:21:03,200 --> 01:21:05,000
I don't, I don't have a good
prediction.

1401
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:07,080
I don't have a good prediction
about that.

1402
01:21:08,360 --> 01:21:12,840
And I'm not, I'm not a fan of
neural correlates in the sense

1403
01:21:12,840 --> 01:21:16,560
that I think speaking is going
to take place here and

1404
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:18,680
visualization is going to be
here or whatever.

1405
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:20,800
I think the whole brain is
involved all the time.

1406
01:21:21,440 --> 01:21:28,560
Sometimes some more, some some
less, but the the, but I don't

1407
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:30,040
really know.
I don't really know the answer

1408
01:21:30,040 --> 01:21:30,560
to that.
What.

1409
01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:34,560
But what I what I do think I
know about that is if you cared

1410
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:40,880
about the mind body problem,
then you should be really

1411
01:21:40,880 --> 01:21:44,320
worried about things that are
mentalisms, which is almost

1412
01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:46,640
everything in, in the way people
think about the mind body

1413
01:21:46,640 --> 01:21:47,360
problem.
I'm afraid.

1414
01:21:47,360 --> 01:21:53,600
But but you should be you should
be scared of any theory that is

1415
01:21:53,600 --> 01:21:56,280
tries to link the a mentalism to
anything.

1416
01:21:57,680 --> 01:22:01,920
And if you, if you advanced as I
would so I'll call it advanced

1417
01:22:01,920 --> 01:22:06,800
beyond a mentalism to directly
apprehended in your experience,

1418
01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:12,560
then you you got your work cut
out for you because it's hard

1419
01:22:12,560 --> 01:22:14,200
work.
The descriptive experience

1420
01:22:14,200 --> 01:22:16,400
sampling is not an easy thing to
do.

1421
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:20,120
You got to develop some skills,
which is, you know, sort of like

1422
01:22:20,120 --> 01:22:23,120
developing skills of being a
virtuoso violinist or whatever.

1423
01:22:23,160 --> 01:22:25,800
You, you, you need practice in
the, in the practice room or

1424
01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:27,560
whatever construction and
whatever.

1425
01:22:28,480 --> 01:22:35,160
And, and, and then you need
enough of those people who to,

1426
01:22:35,480 --> 01:22:39,640
to be good at it, at finding out
what's actually in, in your

1427
01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:41,560
experience, which is a
challenge.

1428
01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:44,160
And then you can start to do
some correlations.

1429
01:22:45,320 --> 01:22:48,840
So when the one of the
correlations as as Herbert would

1430
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:50,840
say in his textbook or
something, you know, you need

1431
01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:54,600
hundreds of people to have a
correlation where that you, that

1432
01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:57,600
you can start to occur because
the error there are bars around

1433
01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:01,200
the size of correlations are
really pretty big when you've

1434
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:07,000
got just a few, a few subjects.
And the problem with DES is it's

1435
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:10,800
hard to get, you know, in my
lifetime, I have sampled with

1436
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:13,480
500 or 1000 people or something
like that.

1437
01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:18,400
It's that's 10 or 100 a year,
not a Goodyear, but.

1438
01:23:19,880 --> 01:23:22,800
Russ, if you there's something I
thought about when I already

1439
01:23:22,800 --> 01:23:26,920
work was I thought about
Benjamin Libett and I thought

1440
01:23:26,920 --> 01:23:29,680
about his free will experience
and I thought what if you

1441
01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:35,520
replace the beeper with a buzzer
when a shock and and I'm talking

1442
01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:41,720
within microseconds, would this
impact someone's experience

1443
01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:45,080
firstly?
And what do you think about free

1444
01:23:45,080 --> 01:23:52,080
will?
Well, I've I have toyed with

1445
01:23:52,240 --> 01:23:59,040
with reproducing some of Libet's
experience and experience

1446
01:23:59,080 --> 01:24:01,280
experiments is what I meant to
say there.

1447
01:24:02,680 --> 01:24:06,160
And I and I think that I think
there is some some things to be

1448
01:24:06,160 --> 01:24:08,920
learned there.
So so for example, I think.

1449
01:24:14,320 --> 01:24:16,760
Is the name Maskaline mean
anything to you, though?

1450
01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:19,920
He's the astronomer's assistant
back back back in the day when

1451
01:24:20,400 --> 01:24:23,400
when we were talking about the,
the, the personal equation.

1452
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:24,880
Does a personal equation mean
anything to you?

1453
01:24:25,560 --> 01:24:28,800
The person, the, the, the
personal equation came the, the,

1454
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:31,360
the famous astronomer whose name
I forget.

1455
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:34,600
Now that's sort of weird because
I remember Maskaline's name, but

1456
01:24:34,840 --> 01:24:39,160
there's the astronomer.
The, the, the task was to mark

1457
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:42,160
transit times.
So you got a clock and the clock

1458
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:45,800
is ticking away and we want to
know when Mars passes through

1459
01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:48,720
the Meridian or whatever.
And I'm not an astronomer, but,

1460
01:24:48,760 --> 01:24:50,480
but basically you're looking
through a telescope.

1461
01:24:50,480 --> 01:24:56,200
There's a, there's a hair down,
down the crosshair and, and the

1462
01:24:56,200 --> 01:24:58,520
thing and, and you want to know
what time it is that Mars

1463
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:00,840
passes.
And so masculine is dutifully

1464
01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:02,160
written it down.
And the way you do is you look

1465
01:25:02,160 --> 01:25:06,480
at a clock and the clock is
saying, you know, ten O 6 O

1466
01:25:06,480 --> 01:25:10,240
102-0304.
And then when the, when the,

1467
01:25:10,720 --> 01:25:13,960
when the Mars passes the line,
then you have counted those,

1468
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:17,680
those things and you say that it
happened to ten O 4.3 or, or, or

1469
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:21,360
or whatever.
And it turns out that there are

1470
01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:27,400
huge individual differences on
like on, on the order of seconds

1471
01:25:27,880 --> 01:25:34,000
about the, on the accuracy of
those of those observations.

1472
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:37,200
And masculine got himself fired
because his, his aspirations

1473
01:25:37,200 --> 01:25:40,240
didn't, didn't match up with the
with the astronomer.

1474
01:25:40,240 --> 01:25:42,680
And the astronomer is really a
famous, famous guy who's I can't

1475
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:48,040
remember which one it is now,
but but, but that became known

1476
01:25:48,040 --> 01:25:49,600
as the personal, personal
equation.

1477
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:54,360
And, and it, and it has to do
with mental processing of clocks

1478
01:25:54,360 --> 01:25:56,880
and visual processing and how
you get these things together

1479
01:25:57,360 --> 01:26:02,560
and those, those things they do
not obey the laws of physics.

1480
01:26:03,440 --> 01:26:07,160
They're, you would think that
the mind was processing this and

1481
01:26:07,160 --> 01:26:09,320
the visual processing this in
the event and the same, but it,

1482
01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:13,480
but it's not true.
And and so that's one of the

1483
01:26:13,480 --> 01:26:17,480
things that the that I was
influenced by, which is sort of

1484
01:26:17,480 --> 01:26:23,360
the labet experiment, experiment
that, that I try to take that

1485
01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:26,520
stuff seriously.
So I, I understand when I said a

1486
01:26:26,520 --> 01:26:29,360
minute ago, when I, when I said
what the beep, the beep happened

1487
01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:31,760
in a couple of microseconds.
Your experience doesn't happen

1488
01:26:31,760 --> 01:26:33,760
in a couple of microseconds.
It takes a while to process

1489
01:26:33,760 --> 01:26:36,440
that.
And so it could very well be

1490
01:26:36,680 --> 01:26:40,280
that you're processing that that
you're processing of the beep

1491
01:26:40,480 --> 01:26:44,080
takes this amount of time and
processing and a schizophrenic

1492
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:46,560
individuals takes a different
amount of time and a during a

1493
01:26:46,560 --> 01:26:49,560
kind of processing.
And So what turns out to be your

1494
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:52,520
reports of inner experience are
really pretty much messed up by

1495
01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:55,040
the by the processing of the
beep.

1496
01:26:55,080 --> 01:27:00,360
I think that's possible.
I don't, I haven't one of the

1497
01:27:00,360 --> 01:27:03,920
many things that I have not
explored much in depth, but I

1498
01:27:03,960 --> 01:27:07,600
but I recognize it as a as an
absolute possibility.

1499
01:27:08,640 --> 01:27:11,080
I think it's a much smaller
possibility than most other

1500
01:27:11,080 --> 01:27:14,960
people, but it's but it's
something to be taken taken

1501
01:27:14,960 --> 01:27:17,560
seriously and in the and in the
world of schizophrenia, I think

1502
01:27:17,560 --> 01:27:22,480
it might be a big deal.
I think it might be, you know,

1503
01:27:22,680 --> 01:27:26,160
several seconds and, and, and
that that can explain things

1504
01:27:26,160 --> 01:27:29,200
like how, how is it that a
schizophrenic individual can,

1505
01:27:29,280 --> 01:27:33,200
can think that the light that,
that I, I turned on the light

1506
01:27:33,200 --> 01:27:34,960
switch because the light came
on.

1507
01:27:35,760 --> 01:27:40,520
You know, well, if, if you're,
if you've got your timing circus

1508
01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:45,040
wacky so that the lighting, so
the lighting coming on is

1509
01:27:45,040 --> 01:27:49,160
experienced as being before the
switch switching.

1510
01:27:50,080 --> 01:27:54,360
If if your time processing is
that wacky, well that that then

1511
01:27:54,360 --> 01:27:58,200
you then you're theorizing self
theorizing about cause and

1512
01:27:58,200 --> 01:28:00,880
effect.
It's wacky.

1513
01:28:02,760 --> 01:28:06,240
But all all of that is is to say
I don't I don't know most about

1514
01:28:06,240 --> 01:28:12,120
what I'm talking about other
than I think it's possible to to

1515
01:28:12,120 --> 01:28:20,400
do this attending to whatever is
apprehended carefully and it's

1516
01:28:20,680 --> 01:28:25,160
and it's worth doing.
But I but it could be that when

1517
01:28:25,160 --> 01:28:27,760
people when people do it in the
you know, and there's a lot of

1518
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:29,600
people who are doing it and they
got better equipment than I have

1519
01:28:29,600 --> 01:28:32,000
when they're younger than I am.
Whatever that they would that

1520
01:28:32,000 --> 01:28:35,720
they would discover that there
that there are some limitations

1521
01:28:35,720 --> 01:28:38,040
and those limitations might be
more important than the method

1522
01:28:38,040 --> 01:28:40,680
itself.
More or less than in the same

1523
01:28:40,680 --> 01:28:45,880
way as the you know then leaving
hook the microscope inventor

1524
01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:49,040
whatever believed in the animal
cules and whatever else he

1525
01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:51,520
believed in which weren't
weren't true in the long haul

1526
01:28:51,520 --> 01:28:55,440
long haul he he but the
microscope has turned out to be

1527
01:28:55,440 --> 01:28:59,480
a pretty important deal in the
in the philosophy of science or

1528
01:28:59,480 --> 01:29:04,840
the science of biology or even
even though he was he was wrong

1529
01:29:04,840 --> 01:29:08,360
about what he was looking at.
And I, and I think of DES as

1530
01:29:08,360 --> 01:29:10,360
sort of the same way DES is a
tool.

1531
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:17,240
I, I think, I believe that my
career has demonstrated that

1532
01:29:17,240 --> 01:29:21,000
it's possible to do it.
People don't, people don't use

1533
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:24,080
it.
Sort of disappointing to me,

1534
01:29:24,080 --> 01:29:28,320
but, but I think it's possible.
And if and if we did it, it

1535
01:29:28,320 --> 01:29:32,800
would it would revolutionize
what we thought about crazy

1536
01:29:32,800 --> 01:29:36,960
people and about mind body
issues and but.

1537
01:29:38,520 --> 01:29:42,440
Russ, before we before we touch
on those broad implications of

1538
01:29:42,440 --> 01:29:47,480
future directions, but I wanted
to find out, you briefly touched

1539
01:29:47,480 --> 01:29:50,960
on this, but in philosophy,
people often talk about whether

1540
01:29:50,960 --> 01:29:53,440
we can truly know someone else's
consciousness.

1541
01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:59,320
And, and I believe that DES has
a very intriguing approach

1542
01:29:59,320 --> 01:30:02,760
toward explaining this
phenomenon.

1543
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:06,440
Do you have a specific
philosophical view on

1544
01:30:06,440 --> 01:30:08,600
consciousness?
For example, do you consider

1545
01:30:08,600 --> 01:30:11,320
yourself to be someone who's
more inclined to a version of

1546
01:30:11,320 --> 01:30:14,880
illusionism?
A version of emergentism?

1547
01:30:15,200 --> 01:30:18,840
Do you have a certain view in
philosophy or, or for you, is

1548
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:23,600
this just sort of a spectrum of,
of experience that you're open

1549
01:30:23,600 --> 01:30:26,440
to explore and and dissect over
time?

1550
01:30:29,080 --> 01:30:34,800
I do not have a view of
consciousness.

1551
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:39,800
I don't know what people mean by
consciousness.

1552
01:30:40,880 --> 01:30:43,040
I don't try to explore
understand other people's

1553
01:30:43,040 --> 01:30:45,200
consciousness.
I don't try to understand my own

1554
01:30:45,200 --> 01:30:49,200
consciousness.
What I am interested in is what

1555
01:30:49,640 --> 01:30:53,520
people direct apprehensions of
their inner experiences.

1556
01:30:54,280 --> 01:30:58,240
And I think it is possible to
describe, to apprehend For me,

1557
01:30:58,240 --> 01:31:03,880
if, if, if we, if I offered to
do with a beeper and we took, we

1558
01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:06,280
did whatever we had to do to
figure figure it out, I could, I

1559
01:31:06,280 --> 01:31:09,400
could find out something about
with, with pretty good fidelity.

1560
01:31:09,880 --> 01:31:15,080
What is in Tevin's inner
experience as he describes them

1561
01:31:15,080 --> 01:31:16,920
at particular beeps.
And that would probably have

1562
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:20,360
quite a bit to do with what is
actually in his experience, but

1563
01:31:20,360 --> 01:31:22,640
it wouldn't be perfect, but it
would be what I call high

1564
01:31:22,640 --> 01:31:26,040
fidelity.
Probably we haven't done it.

1565
01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:27,520
So maybe, maybe it wouldn't work
with him.

1566
01:31:27,520 --> 01:31:36,400
But but that's I, I, that's as
close as I can get to knowing

1567
01:31:36,400 --> 01:31:38,600
about what's in somebody else's
mind.

1568
01:31:39,400 --> 01:31:42,480
Which is to say, I don't know
what's in Tevin's mind, but I

1569
01:31:42,480 --> 01:31:45,000
think I could know about what's
in his inner experience.

1570
01:31:49,160 --> 01:31:53,920
With that being said, Russ, how
let's move on to that deeper

1571
01:31:54,400 --> 01:31:55,920
implication and future
direction.

1572
01:31:56,120 --> 01:32:01,640
How would DES inform clinical
practice or therapy and could it

1573
01:32:01,640 --> 01:32:04,640
change how we understand or
treat mental illness?

1574
01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:12,160
Yes, I think so.
Hang on, hang on just a minute.

1575
01:32:12,880 --> 01:32:15,760
OK, I'm good.
I had another appointment, but

1576
01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:16,600
it's been cancelled.
So I'm.

1577
01:32:16,840 --> 01:32:21,400
I'm even checked the time.
Yeah.

1578
01:32:22,440 --> 01:32:24,560
So neither did I.
So tell me again what your

1579
01:32:24,560 --> 01:32:25,160
question is.
How?

1580
01:32:25,400 --> 01:32:27,520
How would?
It change, I was saying, let's

1581
01:32:27,520 --> 01:32:29,600
move on to these broader
implications and future

1582
01:32:29,600 --> 01:32:32,800
directions for DES and and for
anyone watching or listening.

1583
01:32:32,800 --> 01:32:36,160
I think it's, it's, it's a great
way for potential researchers,

1584
01:32:36,440 --> 01:32:39,320
philosophers, scientists, if
they want to jump on board and

1585
01:32:39,320 --> 01:32:42,400
maybe work on your, on your work
and take it further.

1586
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:46,640
How do you think DES informs
clinical practice or therapy and

1587
01:32:46,720 --> 01:32:49,920
and could it change how we
understand and treat mental

1588
01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:54,560
illness?
So, so I think that I think

1589
01:32:54,560 --> 01:33:03,800
there are fundamentally there
are, if you really take DES

1590
01:33:03,800 --> 01:33:08,120
seriously, there would be
fundamental shifts in almost

1591
01:33:08,120 --> 01:33:16,760
everything that you do.
So therapy, I, I, I'm a licensed

1592
01:33:16,760 --> 01:33:18,520
psychologist.
I don't, I don't practice at it,

1593
01:33:18,520 --> 01:33:20,400
but I am, I am a licensed
psychologist.

1594
01:33:20,960 --> 01:33:25,040
The therapy is, is basically if
I'm the therapist and you're the

1595
01:33:25,040 --> 01:33:29,920
client, I'm I'm supposed to set
out to change your change you in

1596
01:33:29,920 --> 01:33:35,600
some important way.
That is not DESDES is not a

1597
01:33:35,600 --> 01:33:41,000
manipulative thing.
DES is a let's discover Tevin

1598
01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:44,480
the way he is not let's try to
make Tevin better or Devin

1599
01:33:44,480 --> 01:33:48,400
different or, or whatever.
That's a that's a hugely

1600
01:33:48,400 --> 01:33:50,240
different deal from my point of
view.

1601
01:33:51,000 --> 01:33:57,640
And, and my my guess is that for
Tevin, it would be better for

1602
01:33:57,640 --> 01:33:59,880
him.
I don't really know because I'm

1603
01:33:59,920 --> 01:34:06,400
a ignorant mortal, but the my
guess is it is of more value for

1604
01:34:06,400 --> 01:34:12,040
Tevin to know what his inner
experience is than for someone

1605
01:34:12,040 --> 01:34:13,840
to try to change his inner
experience.

1606
01:34:14,920 --> 01:34:19,240
That is, know thyself is
probably a better maxim than

1607
01:34:19,600 --> 01:34:23,480
change thyself.
And that of course is

1608
01:34:23,960 --> 01:34:28,200
fundamentally different from the
whole psychotherapy mindset,

1609
01:34:30,920 --> 01:34:35,000
hugely different.
And then I think I touched as

1610
01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:39,320
far as psychopathology is
concerned, I think it probably,

1611
01:34:42,120 --> 01:34:49,000
if you, I think, I think it's a
psychopathology science based on

1612
01:34:49,800 --> 01:34:52,320
what, what on on the
characteristics of inner

1613
01:34:52,320 --> 01:34:56,640
experience would but probably be
different from the science that

1614
01:34:56,640 --> 01:34:58,440
we've got.
Now, how that how that would be

1615
01:34:58,440 --> 01:35:03,120
different, I don't know exactly,
but I think, I think people with

1616
01:35:03,120 --> 01:35:06,120
psychological disturbances have
messy inner experiences.

1617
01:35:06,120 --> 01:35:11,880
And by messy, there's some
people who just, they, they

1618
01:35:11,880 --> 01:35:14,600
don't have their, their figure.
The figure never gets to be

1619
01:35:14,600 --> 01:35:16,040
clear for them for whatever
reason.

1620
01:35:16,080 --> 01:35:18,880
Either there's no figure at all
or they've got a sort of a

1621
01:35:18,880 --> 01:35:21,600
cloudy figure and it's not, it's
not really clear.

1622
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:23,960
And, and I think those things
are difficult for people.

1623
01:35:24,360 --> 01:35:29,160
I think it's people are, it's
generally easier for people to

1624
01:35:29,160 --> 01:35:32,360
be able to see clearly what
they're looking at and to hear

1625
01:35:32,360 --> 01:35:34,720
clearly what they're hearing.
And it's an environment,

1626
01:35:34,760 --> 01:35:38,360
whatever.
And for people, for people to

1627
01:35:38,360 --> 01:35:42,320
recognize their own inner
experience with skills so that

1628
01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:46,200
they don't find their anger
coming at them like by surprise

1629
01:35:46,200 --> 01:35:49,600
out of the blue.
They see the anger as it arises.

1630
01:35:50,000 --> 01:35:52,400
They feel the anger as it arises
when they're just a little bit

1631
01:35:52,400 --> 01:35:55,000
angry, when they're still
capable of doing something about

1632
01:35:55,000 --> 01:35:57,440
it.
But if they don't, if they

1633
01:35:57,440 --> 01:36:02,600
can't, can't apprehend that,
then by the time their anger

1634
01:36:02,680 --> 01:36:04,480
really shows up, that's too late
for them.

1635
01:36:05,680 --> 01:36:11,640
Do do you see AI or machine
learning helping us analyze DES

1636
01:36:11,680 --> 01:36:15,520
data or even simulate in
experiences?

1637
01:36:18,200 --> 01:36:22,280
I don't know the answer to that.
I am and right now actively

1638
01:36:22,280 --> 01:36:26,840
involved in an AI simulated
learning project that is trying

1639
01:36:26,840 --> 01:36:29,840
to answer that question for DES.
That's basically can we use the,

1640
01:36:29,840 --> 01:36:34,600
the can we use AI to make a, a
computer version of Hurlburt

1641
01:36:34,680 --> 01:36:39,360
and, and we're trying to figure
out the answer to that, for

1642
01:36:39,360 --> 01:36:40,840
better or for worse.
I don't, I don't know whether

1643
01:36:40,840 --> 01:36:43,880
that was a it's a good thing to
be doing that or a bad thing to

1644
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:45,800
be doing that.
It's, it seems like an

1645
01:36:45,800 --> 01:36:49,040
inevitable thing to be doing.
So I'm doing it and.

1646
01:36:49,280 --> 01:36:53,760
How does one work?
But one finds people who know

1647
01:36:53,760 --> 01:36:57,360
how to do it and then gives them
all, all of your stuff and then

1648
01:36:57,360 --> 01:36:59,360
and then they, they, they report
back.

1649
01:36:59,840 --> 01:37:01,520
And so that's basically where we
are.

1650
01:37:01,880 --> 01:37:05,360
There is a group of people who
have I've given them.

1651
01:37:05,840 --> 01:37:07,560
So I've, I've got out on the
web.

1652
01:37:08,360 --> 01:37:10,640
Your, your readers probably
ought to know about this or your

1653
01:37:10,640 --> 01:37:12,040
listeners probably.
I don't know about this, but I

1654
01:37:12,040 --> 01:37:16,880
have on the web a whole series.
I think there's eleven of them

1655
01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:22,120
out now that are in DES
investigations from beginning to

1656
01:37:22,120 --> 01:37:25,840
end, from the first time I met
the guy to all the all the

1657
01:37:25,840 --> 01:37:27,920
interviews that I've had to what
I've written about him.

1658
01:37:28,040 --> 01:37:31,720
All that stuff is, is the videos
are out on YouTube.

1659
01:37:31,720 --> 01:37:35,480
And so I have a YouTube channel
basically that that puts all

1660
01:37:35,480 --> 01:37:38,840
these things out there,
including transcripts and

1661
01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:40,880
commentary that I've written
about the transcripts that I

1662
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:42,960
think people like you would be
might be interested in reading

1663
01:37:42,960 --> 01:37:44,800
about.
All that stuff is there.

1664
01:37:47,440 --> 01:37:50,320
And so in answer to your AI
question, I said, well, I've,

1665
01:37:50,440 --> 01:37:53,400
I've given all this stuff to the
AI people, people who know

1666
01:37:53,400 --> 01:37:56,000
something about AI and and they
say, you know, you want to know

1667
01:37:56,000 --> 01:37:57,120
something about what Herbert
does.

1668
01:37:57,120 --> 01:37:59,120
Well, this is what Herbert does.
You got 100 hours of it.

1669
01:37:59,880 --> 01:38:02,920
This is, you know, figured out
and get back to me.

1670
01:38:03,520 --> 01:38:05,840
Yeah, I think, I think that's
such a that's such a great way

1671
01:38:06,480 --> 01:38:12,920
to get to get stuff done because
that amount of content is so

1672
01:38:12,920 --> 01:38:14,840
useful for any sort of
algorithm.

1673
01:38:14,840 --> 01:38:20,760
They can put this together into
a much more solid summary or

1674
01:38:20,760 --> 01:38:23,680
synopsis.
Because with all that, by the

1675
01:38:23,680 --> 01:38:26,840
way, I'll put a link to that,
Russ, to your channel and to all

1676
01:38:26,840 --> 01:38:29,760
this all to, to all these
investigations and your papers.

1677
01:38:30,120 --> 01:38:35,080
But if you could design the next
generation of studies in this

1678
01:38:35,080 --> 01:38:40,560
area, what questions about inner
experience are you personally

1679
01:38:40,560 --> 01:38:44,640
most eager to answer?
My guess is that the answer to

1680
01:38:44,640 --> 01:38:46,720
that question is that it's the
wrong question.

1681
01:38:49,520 --> 01:38:53,000
And I don't, I, I don't presume
to have a crystal ball that's

1682
01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:56,160
that's any good.
And I, I have personal examples

1683
01:38:56,160 --> 01:38:58,880
of where my old crystal balls
are terribly, terribly bad.

1684
01:38:58,880 --> 01:39:01,240
So I shouldn't take this
anything more than Russ's

1685
01:39:02,760 --> 01:39:05,600
meanderings on whatever today
is.

1686
01:39:05,600 --> 01:39:16,120
And but I, I think, I think
science has to get over the, the

1687
01:39:16,120 --> 01:39:19,520
asking the answering questions
model.

1688
01:39:20,360 --> 01:39:21,560
I don't think that's the right
model.

1689
01:39:22,680 --> 01:39:25,080
I, I, I think there's
limitations of that.

1690
01:39:27,720 --> 01:39:32,720
I think exploring phenomena is
probably more useful than

1691
01:39:32,720 --> 01:39:41,720
answering questions.
That is, that is a fundamentally

1692
01:39:41,720 --> 01:39:43,920
different way of almost science.
Every everybody thinks of

1693
01:39:43,920 --> 01:39:46,800
science as you ask a question
and then try to answer the

1694
01:39:46,800 --> 01:39:49,880
question.
That is what I for for myself, I

1695
01:39:49,880 --> 01:39:54,160
call validity based thing.
You have a theory and you try to

1696
01:39:54,160 --> 01:39:58,960
validate the theory or whatever.
And I think validity based

1697
01:39:58,960 --> 01:40:02,800
science is doomed.
I don't know whether I'm right

1698
01:40:02,800 --> 01:40:06,360
about that, but that's what I
think and I think.

1699
01:40:06,960 --> 01:40:11,440
The alternative that is what I
call fidelity based science,

1700
01:40:11,440 --> 01:40:16,520
where we're trying to find out
about phenomena as they are.

1701
01:40:19,480 --> 01:40:22,800
And it could very well be that
if if you had a mature fidelity

1702
01:40:22,800 --> 01:40:26,440
based science, then validity
based science would be a really

1703
01:40:26,440 --> 01:40:29,840
good thing to do.
But as it is, I think validity

1704
01:40:29,840 --> 01:40:36,600
based science is out over its
skis and it's, it needs the, the

1705
01:40:36,600 --> 01:40:41,240
corrective it needs is to
recognize that it's possibly,

1706
01:40:41,240 --> 01:40:44,680
quite possibly substantially
misguided.

1707
01:40:45,040 --> 01:40:51,600
And so we, we just need to, we
need to roll back the of the

1708
01:40:51,600 --> 01:40:57,320
interest in answering particular
questions and to try to just

1709
01:40:57,320 --> 01:41:01,320
describe phenomena and discover
phenomena the way they are.

1710
01:41:02,040 --> 01:41:04,320
The problem is, the problem is
the, the questions are always

1711
01:41:04,320 --> 01:41:05,960
backwards looking.
You know, you got a question,

1712
01:41:05,960 --> 01:41:08,120
you're trying to validate
something you that's a rear view

1713
01:41:08,120 --> 01:41:12,280
mirror question.
Validating questions is always

1714
01:41:12,280 --> 01:41:16,520
looking in the rear view mirror.
And until you got a really good

1715
01:41:16,520 --> 01:41:18,440
view of what's back there, until
you really know what's back

1716
01:41:18,440 --> 01:41:21,280
there, then probably a good idea
to look out the windshield.

1717
01:41:24,840 --> 01:41:30,000
Russ, when after all you years
of research, what do you think

1718
01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:34,440
is the most common misconception
people have about their own

1719
01:41:34,440 --> 01:41:37,720
experience?
That they know what it is.

1720
01:41:41,360 --> 01:41:45,360
Could you elaborate on that even
though you already have, but

1721
01:41:46,000 --> 01:41:49,280
just to round this up for people
just so they get a clear picture

1722
01:41:49,280 --> 01:41:50,720
of exactly what your work has
done.

1723
01:41:52,680 --> 01:41:56,640
The, the Maybe this is my first
answer was a little glib or

1724
01:41:56,640 --> 01:42:03,320
whatever, but the I think people
have presuppositions about their

1725
01:42:03,320 --> 01:42:06,360
own inner experience.
And when you ask them about

1726
01:42:06,360 --> 01:42:08,840
their inner inner experience,
they tell you what they

1727
01:42:08,840 --> 01:42:11,160
presuppositionally know about
their inner experience.

1728
01:42:12,640 --> 01:42:15,520
And I think people's
presuppositions are delusions.

1729
01:42:18,240 --> 01:42:21,120
And so they tell you about the
results of their delusions.

1730
01:42:21,680 --> 01:42:24,000
And like all delusions, they
believe they're telling you

1731
01:42:24,000 --> 01:42:27,920
about the truth.
But it's not the case.

1732
01:42:32,640 --> 01:42:34,400
Do you think there's a way?
That, that is, that's the,

1733
01:42:34,400 --> 01:42:37,440
that's the fundamental thing.
The, the, the fundamental deal

1734
01:42:37,440 --> 01:42:39,680
is if, if, if everybody
recognized that they were, they

1735
01:42:39,680 --> 01:42:43,360
were really delusional,
sometimes big delusions,

1736
01:42:43,360 --> 01:42:46,360
sometimes little illusion.
But, but the fundamental part of

1737
01:42:46,360 --> 01:42:48,760
the human condition is, is
basically delusional.

1738
01:42:50,520 --> 01:42:51,680
The world would be a different
place.

1739
01:42:53,240 --> 01:42:55,800
Republicans wouldn't be arguing
with the Democrats.

1740
01:42:55,800 --> 01:42:59,880
And if they all recognize that
they were really, both of them

1741
01:42:59,920 --> 01:43:06,760
fucked up and delusional, and as
at the core, they pretend that

1742
01:43:06,760 --> 01:43:09,440
they know what they're talking
about and they're the good guy

1743
01:43:09,440 --> 01:43:11,600
and that they know the right
thing and everybody else does

1744
01:43:11,600 --> 01:43:15,320
the wrong thing, when it's
probably true that they're both

1745
01:43:16,120 --> 01:43:20,720
delusional.
Russ, it's such a pleasure and

1746
01:43:20,720 --> 01:43:24,080
honor for me to chat to you.
Such a big fan of your work,

1747
01:43:24,480 --> 01:43:28,240
been following it for many years
and hope you continue to succeed

1748
01:43:28,240 --> 01:43:30,640
and produce such quality work
and research.

1749
01:43:31,320 --> 01:43:33,440
Is there anything about your
work that you feel I haven't

1750
01:43:33,440 --> 01:43:37,600
touched on or that you would
like to reiterate to make sure

1751
01:43:37,600 --> 01:43:42,360
people really take home?
Yes, I would say one more thing

1752
01:43:42,360 --> 01:43:46,600
about it, and that is that it's,
it's genuinely interesting.

1753
01:43:46,640 --> 01:43:49,600
I've been doing the same work
for 50 years and it's at least

1754
01:43:49,600 --> 01:43:51,560
as interesting to me now as it
was 50 years ago.

1755
01:43:52,680 --> 01:43:57,920
Everybody is different.
Getting people to be able to

1756
01:43:57,920 --> 01:44:00,960
tell you about their own inner
experience because you have to,

1757
01:44:01,240 --> 01:44:03,560
you have to wade through their
own presuppositions and

1758
01:44:03,960 --> 01:44:10,640
distortions and, and whatever.
It's totally challenging and

1759
01:44:10,640 --> 01:44:15,560
it's, it's a totally interesting
and challenging thing for me

1760
01:44:15,560 --> 01:44:22,280
personally to do.
It's and it's not a, it's not

1761
01:44:22,280 --> 01:44:25,120
going to work for me.
It's it's the privilege of

1762
01:44:25,760 --> 01:44:30,120
trying to have somebody tell me
about what's actually their

1763
01:44:31,000 --> 01:44:34,880
fundamental private experience,
which is pretty cool.

1764
01:44:35,880 --> 01:44:37,360
I mean, that's, that's beautiful
for us.

1765
01:44:37,360 --> 01:44:40,760
The, the fact that you still
enjoy it after all these years

1766
01:44:40,760 --> 01:44:42,280
and still so passionate about
it.

1767
01:44:42,280 --> 01:44:43,840
You can see it by the way you
talk about it.

1768
01:44:43,840 --> 01:44:47,720
And if, if anyone wants to reach
out, I'll put links to your

1769
01:44:47,720 --> 01:44:51,040
website, put links to all the
work you've done from my side.

1770
01:44:51,040 --> 01:44:52,800
Thank you so much for all the
incredible work.

1771
01:44:53,400 --> 01:44:55,720
I appreciate it very much.
Well, you're welcome.

1772
01:44:56,480 --> 01:44:59,520
And and I would say just in one,
one last thing is that the

1773
01:44:59,520 --> 01:45:04,320
website that I put out there
that is my version of, of, of,

1774
01:45:04,760 --> 01:45:09,960
of phenomenon oriented.
I'm, I'm not trying to answer

1775
01:45:09,960 --> 01:45:12,560
any questions in that.
I'm trying to tell you this is

1776
01:45:12,560 --> 01:45:16,200
what Ryan's inner experience was
and this is what Lena's

1777
01:45:16,200 --> 01:45:17,520
experience was.
And this is what Mel's

1778
01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:20,400
experience was.
And this is what Kerry's inner

1779
01:45:20,400 --> 01:45:22,280
experience was.
And this is how I got there.

1780
01:45:22,280 --> 01:45:26,920
And this is the, you know, most
of the time I've had I've had Co

1781
01:45:27,240 --> 01:45:30,080
investigators with me and this
is what I thought about the Co

1782
01:45:30,080 --> 01:45:32,200
investigators questions and this
is what they thought about my

1783
01:45:32,200 --> 01:45:35,280
questions.
And this is the it's the nuts

1784
01:45:35,280 --> 01:45:40,800
and bolts of it.
Russ, before before we close,

1785
01:45:41,160 --> 01:45:46,040
something else I thought about
when we before we chat was I

1786
01:45:46,040 --> 01:45:48,480
remember your book with Eric
Schweitzkebel, the two of you,

1787
01:45:48,480 --> 01:45:49,720
because I've had Eric on the
show.

1788
01:45:50,560 --> 01:45:54,480
I know you guys did that sort of
a back and forth discussion when

1789
01:45:54,480 --> 01:45:57,200
people look at your work, read
through it, discuss a dissect

1790
01:45:57,200 --> 01:45:58,640
it.
When viewers listen to this or

1791
01:45:58,640 --> 01:46:02,240
watch this, what do you think of
the questions they will ask you

1792
01:46:02,240 --> 01:46:09,680
or or sort of debate with you
and retaliate in terms of things

1793
01:46:09,680 --> 01:46:12,520
that you most commonly encounter
when discussing these views?

1794
01:46:12,920 --> 01:46:17,360
So if you're to almost pre
emptively defend yourself, what

1795
01:46:17,360 --> 01:46:20,960
did you say?
Well, I, I would say I, I did a

1796
01:46:20,960 --> 01:46:23,360
pretty good job of answering
that question in this interview.

1797
01:46:23,360 --> 01:46:25,920
So the questions that you asked
are the pretty much the same

1798
01:46:25,920 --> 01:46:28,920
kind of questions that I get.
And I answered them the way that

1799
01:46:28,920 --> 01:46:34,720
I would generally ask them.
And my, and, and So what I

1800
01:46:34,720 --> 01:46:38,240
would, what I, the, the general
thing is, I agree with all the,

1801
01:46:38,440 --> 01:46:41,920
all the criticisms, everybody's
criticism from Eric Signup, all

1802
01:46:41,920 --> 01:46:43,720
those, all those criticisms are
valid.

1803
01:46:44,640 --> 01:46:49,280
I have done my, I can, I can
sleep easily at night saying

1804
01:46:49,280 --> 01:46:53,600
I've done the best that, that I
can do to, to live in a world

1805
01:46:53,600 --> 01:46:56,120
where those, where I take those
criticisms seriously.

1806
01:46:56,880 --> 01:47:00,960
That doesn't mean that I am good
at it even, or that I'm right

1807
01:47:00,960 --> 01:47:05,040
about it or anything.
And I'm, I'm pretty comfortable

1808
01:47:05,040 --> 01:47:08,680
with that.
But I've, but I have taken them,

1809
01:47:09,880 --> 01:47:12,720
I've taken them seriously.
And I would say if you're going

1810
01:47:12,720 --> 01:47:17,120
to mention Schvitz Cable's book,
I've got that.

1811
01:47:17,200 --> 01:47:21,200
That book, I think is sort of a
model of good communication,

1812
01:47:22,800 --> 01:47:28,160
that of, of people taking each
other, taking each other

1813
01:47:28,160 --> 01:47:31,480
seriously and not trying to talk
past each other, which I think

1814
01:47:31,480 --> 01:47:34,600
is sort of the fundamentaliest,
interestingest thing to do.

1815
01:47:34,600 --> 01:47:42,520
That that I think that's just
that's a that's that's a good

1816
01:47:42,520 --> 01:47:45,320
book from from the from the
standpoint of modeling that I

1817
01:47:45,320 --> 01:47:47,920
think Eric and I I did a good
book.

1818
01:47:48,520 --> 01:47:51,040
Yeah, I think that's that's
something that's very incredible

1819
01:47:51,040 --> 01:47:53,520
to watch is 2 people actually
discuss something very

1820
01:47:54,440 --> 01:47:59,240
engagingly intellectually and
with so much respect, Russ, if

1821
01:47:59,240 --> 01:48:03,360
there's any, if there's a
postdoc student, professor,

1822
01:48:03,360 --> 01:48:07,240
anyone, a scholar watching this,
trying to enter this field,

1823
01:48:07,240 --> 01:48:11,640
assist with DS, propagate it,
move it forward, What advice

1824
01:48:11,640 --> 01:48:14,120
would you give them?
Is there any sort of direction

1825
01:48:14,120 --> 01:48:15,520
you'd like this to go in the
future?

1826
01:48:17,920 --> 01:48:19,720
I don't, I don't know that I got
a good answer to that.

1827
01:48:19,720 --> 01:48:24,160
What I what I would say is my
book with Eric, I think is is

1828
01:48:24,960 --> 01:48:30,120
something about engagement.
My book with Marco Caracciolo

1829
01:48:31,360 --> 01:48:35,320
is, is an extension of that, but
in in some ways better than the

1830
01:48:35,880 --> 01:48:38,400
Eric book.
The book, the book with Eric

1831
01:48:38,400 --> 01:48:43,040
basically is we had, we had
conversations back and forth and

1832
01:48:43,040 --> 01:48:46,360
then as as a result of the
conversations, we, we refined

1833
01:48:46,360 --> 01:48:48,120
for each other what it was we're
we're trying to do.

1834
01:48:48,120 --> 01:48:51,080
And then eventually put those,
put those out there about, about

1835
01:48:51,080 --> 01:48:54,720
each one.
That was the book with Eric,

1836
01:48:54,720 --> 01:48:57,560
which I thought was a, a good, a
good book.

1837
01:48:57,640 --> 01:49:00,480
The book with Marco is basically
it's the whole conversation.

1838
01:49:00,480 --> 01:49:02,160
So there's no distillation
involved.

1839
01:49:02,160 --> 01:49:05,720
It's the whole, it's the whole
deal out there that so you can,

1840
01:49:05,720 --> 01:49:09,160
you can, it's basically he wrote
me an e-mail some he's a guy

1841
01:49:09,160 --> 01:49:10,640
that I'd never met.
He wrote me an e-mail, I

1842
01:49:10,640 --> 01:49:13,480
responded, he wrote me back
another e-mail and I responded

1843
01:49:13,480 --> 01:49:15,800
and then we went back and forth.
And so it's basically a

1844
01:49:15,800 --> 01:49:20,320
collection of, of emails between
him and me about, about these,

1845
01:49:20,520 --> 01:49:24,800
these topics with no, no
filtering hard hardly at all.

1846
01:49:24,800 --> 01:49:27,360
So it's sort of like an
epistolary novel, except it's in

1847
01:49:27,520 --> 01:49:29,160
a real life, the right life
review.

1848
01:49:30,000 --> 01:49:34,960
And then the, the interviews
that I've put out are sort of

1849
01:49:34,960 --> 01:49:37,480
the next step in, in that the,
the, the interviews are just

1850
01:49:37,480 --> 01:49:42,040
the, the basic thing, the whole
deal.

1851
01:49:43,280 --> 01:49:46,120
So the, so the Eric, the, the
Eric is sort of the homogenized

1852
01:49:46,120 --> 01:49:48,240
whole deal.
And the, and the Marco thing is

1853
01:49:48,240 --> 01:49:52,480
the, is the whole old deal from
one perspective.

1854
01:49:52,480 --> 01:49:56,200
And, and then the, the, the
interviews are the whole deal

1855
01:49:57,160 --> 01:50:00,880
really from the very, from, from
everything with the video and

1856
01:50:00,880 --> 01:50:03,320
the word for word and all the
whole deal.

1857
01:50:03,320 --> 01:50:05,680
So if you really want to know
what I think about things,

1858
01:50:06,560 --> 01:50:08,360
that's, that's the transition of
it.

1859
01:50:09,720 --> 01:50:14,120
Well, and I, and, and I think
rightly or wrongly, I think we

1860
01:50:14,120 --> 01:50:19,600
need to do more of the kinds of
science that is in the, the kind

1861
01:50:19,600 --> 01:50:23,360
of interviews where we're just
trying to discover phenomena,

1862
01:50:23,360 --> 01:50:27,920
trying to discover the, the
difficulties and limitations and

1863
01:50:27,920 --> 01:50:32,960
blind spots and whatever you
know, there, there are.

1864
01:50:33,200 --> 01:50:35,960
So for your, for your Philip,
for your philosophical friends,

1865
01:50:36,200 --> 01:50:39,120
the people who might be watching
this in the, in those

1866
01:50:39,120 --> 01:50:44,120
interviews, there are
philosophical questions raised,

1867
01:50:48,360 --> 01:50:59,200
particularly in the last in the,
in the, in the, yeah, I take it

1868
01:50:59,200 --> 01:51:00,080
back.
I think they're all the way

1869
01:51:00,080 --> 01:51:01,880
through.
But there are, there are, there

1870
01:51:01,880 --> 01:51:06,720
are philosophical debates in, I
don't know, I'd have to look and

1871
01:51:06,720 --> 01:51:09,360
see what my chapters are here.
I don't actually remember what,

1872
01:51:12,880 --> 01:51:15,280
but let me your readers might
want to know.

1873
01:51:15,280 --> 01:51:16,680
Or you can filter this out or
whatever.

1874
01:51:16,680 --> 01:51:19,480
Yeah, I think, I think they'll
be excited to hear this.

1875
01:51:19,640 --> 01:51:23,040
So I think they'll want to know
exactly which aspects they'd

1876
01:51:23,040 --> 01:51:25,560
found most intriguing.
This is very much a

1877
01:51:25,600 --> 01:51:29,440
philosophical scientific
podcast, so the audience are

1878
01:51:29,440 --> 01:51:30,920
probably waiting for something
like this.

1879
01:51:34,320 --> 01:51:37,720
So let me so I'll give you a
little bit of a guided thing.

1880
01:51:38,080 --> 01:51:44,320
Part 8X VI I8 Gabriel.
Gabriel was a college senior

1881
01:51:44,320 --> 01:51:47,720
interested in philosophy and so
there are discussions of

1882
01:51:47,760 --> 01:51:54,760
philosophical issues that go
along with his his interest in

1883
01:51:54,760 --> 01:51:56,840
philosophical questions that are
but that, but that.

1884
01:51:57,560 --> 01:52:00,440
But the the advantage of that is
that they're asked in the

1885
01:52:00,440 --> 01:52:05,000
context of a particular sample.
This is we this is a sample and

1886
01:52:05,000 --> 01:52:07,360
you know, what is this?
What how should I take this?

1887
01:52:07,360 --> 01:52:10,720
How should I understand that or
whatever That's part eight, part

1888
01:52:10,920 --> 01:52:18,160
X, part 10.
IA guy came to me and said, I

1889
01:52:18,200 --> 01:52:22,120
think I know how to do DES, but
then you can and better than you

1890
01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:24,360
do.
And and so let me teach you some

1891
01:52:24,360 --> 01:52:26,040
stuff about that.
And I said, OK.

1892
01:52:26,040 --> 01:52:33,800
And so we we enlisted a woman,
Mel Mel May and we and we

1893
01:52:33,800 --> 01:52:37,040
interviewed, we Co inter Co
interviewed her.

1894
01:52:38,200 --> 01:52:43,280
And in the context of that,
there are decided backs and

1895
01:52:43,280 --> 01:52:47,280
forth between the, the person
whose name is Julian Bass

1896
01:52:47,280 --> 01:52:49,920
Krueger.
Julian and I debated each other

1897
01:52:49,920 --> 01:52:53,120
about what you really could and
couldn't do and ask about inner

1898
01:52:53,120 --> 01:52:57,440
experience and whatever.
So those, those debates are raw

1899
01:52:57,440 --> 01:53:03,920
and, and opinionated.
And I guess you could, I guess

1900
01:53:03,920 --> 01:53:08,560
you could say but there but but,
but all based on what we could

1901
01:53:08,560 --> 01:53:12,320
say about about Mel's
experience.

1902
01:53:13,560 --> 01:53:25,000
So they're they're the, you
know, the the 11 notch more or

1903
01:53:25,440 --> 01:53:29,840
rawer, I guess so.
So the markup book is a little

1904
01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:32,320
bit raw.
The Caricello book is pretty raw

1905
01:53:32,320 --> 01:53:35,680
and the Mel Melodeel is very
raw.

1906
01:53:36,720 --> 01:53:40,400
And, and then and then the the
next one I think they might find

1907
01:53:40,400 --> 01:53:43,680
interesting if they got that far
is part 11, which is Carrie.

1908
01:53:44,200 --> 01:53:46,160
And Carrie turns out to be Mel's
friend.

1909
01:53:46,160 --> 01:53:49,440
And the the back story there is
Mel turns out to have almost no

1910
01:53:49,440 --> 01:53:53,000
inner experience by by chance
note, nobody knew this going and

1911
01:53:53,000 --> 01:53:55,360
going in, but she ended up
having relatively little inner

1912
01:53:55,360 --> 01:53:57,520
experience and thought that's
the way everybody else was

1913
01:53:57,520 --> 01:53:59,760
because everybody thinks that
everybody else is just like

1914
01:53:59,760 --> 01:54:02,760
them.
But in the course of the

1915
01:54:02,760 --> 01:54:05,400
interviewing, she became
convinced that maybe she's not

1916
01:54:05,640 --> 01:54:08,360
that similar because I would
say, you know, well this isn't

1917
01:54:08,360 --> 01:54:10,440
what I usually see, but let's
see.

1918
01:54:10,800 --> 01:54:14,360
So she recruited a friend of
hers to be a subject.

1919
01:54:15,400 --> 01:54:20,320
And, and then the three of us,
which would be Julian and me and

1920
01:54:20,320 --> 01:54:24,000
Mel were Co interviews with
Carrie.

1921
01:54:24,440 --> 01:54:27,240
And Carrie, it turns out, was
quite a bit different from Mel,

1922
01:54:27,240 --> 01:54:29,200
which isn't too surprising
because everybody's different

1923
01:54:29,200 --> 01:54:31,800
from everybody and Mel is pretty
unusual in the 1st place.

1924
01:54:31,800 --> 01:54:34,920
So Mel and Kerry are very, very
different.

1925
01:54:34,920 --> 01:54:38,360
But then, but then you get a
chance to see how that plays

1926
01:54:38,360 --> 01:54:42,240
out.
And Russ, is that malleable?

1927
01:54:42,440 --> 01:54:47,160
Do you, do you find that once
the realization is there that

1928
01:54:47,880 --> 01:54:50,920
let's say Mel doesn't have this
experience, is this something

1929
01:54:50,920 --> 01:54:55,320
that is trainable or is that
permanent?

1930
01:54:56,360 --> 01:55:00,280
Inner experience can change and,
and can change dramatically and,

1931
01:55:00,320 --> 01:55:03,720
and I would say miraculously,
I've, I've seen a few miracles

1932
01:55:03,720 --> 01:55:06,240
along the way.
One of which I've told in a the

1933
01:55:06,240 --> 01:55:10,240
story of Fran, I've told fairly
frequently is a inner experience

1934
01:55:10,240 --> 01:55:13,600
that I think changes
dramatically over the course of,

1935
01:55:14,640 --> 01:55:22,280
of, of her sampling with me.
And I, I don't have time, we

1936
01:55:22,280 --> 01:55:25,000
don't have time to tell that
story again, but I've told it

1937
01:55:25,000 --> 01:55:27,000
recently on a podcast.
I can give you the link to that

1938
01:55:27,000 --> 01:55:30,200
podcast.
It's also in my several of my,

1939
01:55:30,680 --> 01:55:33,960
my books.
My, I think my second book, my

1940
01:55:33,960 --> 01:55:37,720
1993 book, tells the story of
Fran and I've told it in in

1941
01:55:37,720 --> 01:55:41,360
journal articles.
Ross, Ross, it's it's such a

1942
01:55:41,360 --> 01:55:44,040
pleasure.
Thank you so much for joining

1943
01:55:44,040 --> 01:55:45,720
me.
Any final words, anything from

1944
01:55:45,720 --> 01:55:47,440
your side that you feel you
haven't touched on?

1945
01:55:47,920 --> 01:55:51,080
You good?
I think I'm good, I've enjoyed

1946
01:55:51,080 --> 01:55:53,080
the conversation, I've thought
the questions were good, and

1947
01:55:53,800 --> 01:55:54,200
good luck.