Roy Baumeister: Do Humans Have Free Will? The Self, Ego Depletion Theory, Self Control & Willpower

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Roy, what is the self?
All right, well, it's a a mental

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system, a structure that
coordinates.

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It's it's how the brain uses
systems to coordinate action, to

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organize the body and then to
participate in the social

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system.
For the human, the the self is

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the interface between the
physical animal body and the

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social system.
When when you wrote the self

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explained, you spoke about how
and why we become who we are.

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And I know you're currently
writing a book on free will.

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So I'm curious to know how did
we get this system going?

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What are the origins of the
system that we call the self?

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And do you differentiate this
self from the concept of

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consciousness, let's say?
Well.

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Yeah, yes.
I mean, there, there's some

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overlap, but consciousness would
be the the way that the brain

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creates a subjective experience,
creates a simulation of the of

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the environment or past and
future.

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The self, the property is the
self.

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Foundation of my thinking is
that the human mind is created

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by nature for culture, so that
the human traits are the result

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of of, of biological adaptations
to enable us to participate in a

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complex social system with
sharing information and all the

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other features of culture.
So the self comes to be as the

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brain learns to operate the role
in the social system and the the

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properties of the self are are
partly defined by the

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requirements of the social
system.

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If you lived alone as a solitary
being, you wouldn't need much of

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A self.
You wouldn't even need a name.

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If you had possessions, they
wouldn't be your possessions

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'cause you only need that stuff
in, in social environments.

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Now simpler brains earlier in
evolution used systems to

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control the body to some degree.
I think I used the example of

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walking.
So they're four legs.

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You know, it learns to
coordinate so that they move in,

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in a coordinated system.
So the, you know, they're,

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they're the four legs say that
an animal has which are all

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independent structures, but the
brain imposes a system to maybe

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move them so they can help the
animal move in a in a systematic

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way.
It's usually the the left front

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and the right rear move and then
they plant and then the right

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front and the left rear move and
then they plant.

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So it has to understand front
and back, left and right and

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then the diagonal alternating
systems.

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So I mean, when you think of it
that way, it's a kind of a

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complicated system.
Obviously a lot of animals do it

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without being all that smart.
But you know, that's, that's the

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self.
The animal is moving as a whole,

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which the self is really the
creation of unity.

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And in in human beings, we have
unity across time, which is not

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nearly as pronounced, if it's
there at all, among other

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animals.
They mostly live in the present.

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But we are continuous with past
and future.

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And part of that is because,
again, of the requirements of

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the social system, society work
better if people are moral, if

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they obey the moral rules.
That's what moral rules are

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mostly to set aside selfish and
destructive impulses to do what?

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If everybody acted that way,
then society would would work

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better.
And I was going with it.

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Oh, so past and future morality
needs the continuity over time

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so that you cannot do something
immoral now and then There are

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no consequences.
You're a big part of what makes

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people behave in a morally
positive fashion is, is knowing

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that in the future, no one will
trust them or or or work with

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them if they, if they behave
immorally.

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So the, the time perspective
helps the brain, which again,

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doesn't need it in the present.
If you did, if you were alone,

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morality would would not be a a
concern at all.

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It, it regulates how people
relate to each other and get

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along with each other.
And it works.

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I mean, the, the, the human
population is expanding and

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you're up to 8 billion people,
whereas in most of the other

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mammal populations have been
declining for a long time.

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There are our closest relatives,
the chimpanzees.

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They estimate there's something
like 300,000 left in the in the

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wild.
So that's not their system is

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not working nearly as well as
ours.

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That's gotten us up to 8
billion.

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So it's an effective system, but
again, unity across time,

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morality is just one part of it.
Of course, you have education

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and you get credentials or you
get training for a job and then

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you perform the same job, the
same role in the system.

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And as we divide labor, so
different people do different

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jobs, it creates enough
resources that can be shared

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around.
I'm a professor.

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If I had to get my own food from
nature and build my own shelter,

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I would be in trouble.
I don't have have skills like

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that, but I can do what I do is,
you know, do psychology research

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and teaching and contribute to
the society and then then they

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give me money and I can use that
to get very nice food and

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shelter.
So, so tell me, Roy, I mean,

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you're such a prolific and
influential social psychologist,

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highly cited, I don't know how
many hundreds of thousands with

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with so much influence and so
much in depth analysis in this

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field over the time, over the
years, let's say.

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What have you noticed regarding
the shifting in in society's

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perception of the self?
Because there's this influx of

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philosophers coming in today to
say that the self is an

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illusion, which was something
people did in the past,

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particularly in the East.
How do you think of these new

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philosophies that Western
philosophers are now

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approaching?
Someone like Sam Harris, let's

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say, who's his free world of the
self is an illusion.

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Yes, yes, yes.
I'm not sure they really believe

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it, or maybe they do.
I I read there's the other

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neuroscientist who wrote a book,
Bruce Hood, the self illusion,

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which I said, OK, I really got
to take this seriously.

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I know it's a different point,
but I don't think he really

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believes it.
For one thing, he puts his name

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on the book Mr. Self illusion.
I I said in the book too, I

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think if you came home and, or
if he came home and found you in

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bed with his, his wife, he'd be
mad And you know, you'd say,

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well, selves are illusions.
All it means is somebody's

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having sex with someone else.
Certainly you can't object to

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sex in the abstract.
It's just one person.

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The the only oh, that this is my
wife would be, you know,

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postulating the self.
So I'm not sure they really

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believe it.
I I read his book.

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It was actually charming.
I was thinking it would be

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annoying and there were a lot of
cool things, but he didn't

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really try very hard to convince
me that the the self doesn't

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exist.
He sort of retreated and says,

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well, it's not exactly what it
seems.

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Well, that's very old news.
People have mistaken ideas about

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the about themselves and they
overestimate their good points

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and things like that.
And he didn't say you know what

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it was, or he says it's a useful
illusion.

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It's sort of Daniel Dennett and
consciousness, the way he

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approaches it, consciousness
being an illusion, but it's,

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it's a useful one.
It's, it's something that

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evolved to do that.
To play devil's advocate, let's

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say, what about the fact that we
perceive flowers, but we know

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it's just electromagnetic
radiation.

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We're sort of seeing photons of
light, but we still behave as if

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it's a flower.
You could flip that around to

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say, I mean, although the self
is an illusion, it's still

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useful to sort of go about life
pretending like it is.

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Is that not what he's trying to
do?

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I would say sure.
I haven't read the book so I

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can't speak for him.
OK, I don't know what Tenet said

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about it.
I've read a number of his books,

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but you know, having
philosophical arguments and I, I

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don't really understand nobody's
against or whatever.

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He had that book freedom
evolved, right?

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I was sort of making the same
point in, in the cultural

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animal.
So I was very interested to see,

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but he didn't really talk about
how it evolved or why it evolved

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or anything like that.
So in my new free will book, I,

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I, I talk about that and it's
beneficial again, it, it enables

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the social system to work, that
people had to make choices and,

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and recognize them and that they
have to have enough self-control

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to overcome some selfish
impulses to do what's best for

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others.
You can ask, why don't

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chimpanzees have restaurants?
Well, you know, 'cause

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restaurants are nice.
I just had lunch with my friend

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in one.
But they couldn't do it first.

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They would if they saw somebody
else had food on their plate

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that they wanted, they would
just take it if they were

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bigger.
And they don't understand money,

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so they wouldn't pay for it, so
they they couldn't make a

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restaurant work, so they have to
do without.

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All these things that make our
life so much better come from

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being able to participate in the
system.

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As when I give talks on this, I
put up a slide saying free will

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is for following rules.
And that's to sort of shock

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people a little bit 'cause, you
know, they think intuitively

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that freedom means being able to
do whatever I want with no

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rules.
But, but you don't need any

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advanced psychological powers to
do that or any animal out in the

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woods can do that, to do
whatever it feels like with no

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rules.
What you need advanced mental

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agency for is to operate in a
system where there are a lot of

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rules and still take care of
yourself and get what you want

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there.
And, and so that's the challenge

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of culture.
It, it needs a lot of rules and

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it needs, I thought about this,
you know, it, it doesn't need

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people to follow all of them all
the time because clearly that

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doesn't happen.
But if most of the people follow

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most of the rules most of the
time, then the culture works,

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which means it produces more
resources and shares them so

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that the, the, the population
can thrive, that people can live

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and raise children.
And then there's the next

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generation.
And that's what counts as

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success in a culture.
But all the things you have to

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do to participate in that
require advanced mental powers

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that are really beyond the
capability of most other other

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animals in the in the free will
book, which is going to be out

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September of this 2024 to try to
give more concrete examples.

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So so the moral agent is one
that you use these abstract

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ideas based on shared
understandings of what's right

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and wrong to guide your behavior
and you develop intuitions based

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on that.
Another would be economic agent

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that we participate in in
markets and we go to stores and

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buy things and we earn money and
all that stuff.

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Again, that really makes the
system work.

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No other animals have that.
None of them even have money.

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It's not clear they even have
trade, but trade increases

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wealth.
Matt Ridley in his last book

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said trade is 10 times older
than farming, which is kind of a

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shocking thing to realize.
But if our, you know, we think

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of the word agriculture is the
origin of the word culture, and

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that's farming.
And we associate it with that.

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But that's about 10 or 12,000
years ago.

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And if, if, if Ridley's right,
then trade is well over 100,000

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years old.
So that's something our species

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figured out how to do earlier.
And I, it took me a long time to

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realize this, but a marketplace
is basically a, a system of

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cooperation.
You know, we think of it as

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antagonistic and so on.
But the buyer wants to buy and

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the seller wants to sell.
And then yes, a higher price

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favors the seller and a lower
price favors the buyer.

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But if they can find a, a price
that's acceptable to both, then

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they are both better off.
That's the definition of

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cooperation, to have an
interaction that benefits both

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parties.
So a marketplace.

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All human societies have trade,
as far as we know, and again, no

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animal society.
So it's really one of the

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essential human traits, but it
takes advanced mental powers.

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You got to understand, you got
to negotiate, you need some

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degree of quantification even
before money.

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You have to understand, you
know, how many furs or how many

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wheat plants for how many fish
if, if that's what you're

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trading.
So you need some sense of value

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that can be transferred across
the different items.

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But still being able to do that
again, makes, makes both both

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parties better off.
So it it, it's hugely adaptive.

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00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,040
So, so you've got the the moral
and the economic.

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00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,520
Are there any other aspects to
this or is that too?

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00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,320
Much the third agent, the third
agent you know there there are

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00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,000
probably plenty more, but these
are three big ones.

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The third is the information
agent that humans spend a lot of

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time what they call trafficking
and information includes what

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we're doing right now, I guess.
But but I'm I'm Sudendorf in his

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00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,040
book about the difference
between humans.

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00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,480
It's called the gap between
humans and all others.

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00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,520
And one of the big conclusions
was that he doesn't see any

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00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,840
other animals that have this.
But humans, we have the urge to

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00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,160
tell others what the contents of
our mind are.

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00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,000
Our minds are, you know, we find
something, we see something

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00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,040
cool.
Oh, I want to tell someone.

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00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:55,960
I mean, it's even true on
e-mail.

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00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:57,960
You know, something funny or
something interesting will come

242
00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:59,720
around and say, oh, I got to
share this.

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00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,800
I got to send it on to, to
someone else.

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00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,880
So, and that's, that's not the
only thing that's just like,

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00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,520
well, the first step I suppose
is curiosity, wanting to get

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00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:13,400
information.
And then a lot of animals have

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00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,600
that, but that's as far as they
go.

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The 2nd is sharing it with
others.

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00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,760
Then there's criticizing it,
there's passing it along that

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00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,600
you hear from one person and you
tell to someone else.

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00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,440
It's not just what you discover
on your own, various other

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00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,520
things using information to, to
trick people or whatever.

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00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,520
They're more advanced that sorts
of things.

254
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:38,120
But I yes, the human being is an
information agent.

255
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,160
And again, this requires
advanced mental powers.

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00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,560
So I think the free will is a is
an appropriate term.

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00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,360
It's if, if this were all
discovered today, we probably

258
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:50,840
wouldn't choose the term free
will.

259
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,160
But since we've been using it
for 1000 years, I think we're

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00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:55,880
kind of stuck with it and it's
close enough.

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00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,480
What would you call that, Troy?
Pardon me.

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00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,160
What would you call it if not
Troy?

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00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,840
I, I don't know if they
discovered it today and like

264
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:14,200
the, I don't know, executive
function or some kind of thing

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00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,320
that people do talk about
executive function in a somewhat

266
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:24,440
related sense.
But I, I'm OK with the term free

267
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,160
will.
I mean, for me, the, the, the

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00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,160
free part is less of a problem
than the will part because we

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00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:36,320
don't we don't have a psychology
of will psychology textbooks

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00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:37,880
don't have a chapter on the
will.

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00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,240
But the free, some actions are
clearly freer than others.

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00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,080
And everybody's had that
experience.

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00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:47,160
Where do you have the freedom to
do what you want or no?

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00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,800
Are you constrained?
And the different processes that

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00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,920
go into recognizing the freedom
and capitalizing and making the

276
00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:00,720
freer choice as opposed to just
accommodating to not having

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00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,600
freedom.
Roy, what is the book called?

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00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,200
Your new book Are you?
Have you given the title

279
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:07,359
already?
Yeah, yeah.

280
00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:08,920
It's the the science of free
will.

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00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,880
The science of free will they
When you prepare for a book like

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00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,760
this, I'm always curious to know
how do authors prep?

283
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,119
Whose books do they read?
Which books do they find most

284
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,200
confirming for their biases?
Or perhaps which ones are the

285
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,119
best arguments against it in
preparation?

286
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,960
Have you read Sapolsky's
Determined by any chance in

287
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:29,640
preparation?
Oh yes.

288
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,800
Well, I read a, a lot of it.
I have an online debate with him

289
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,960
that's available, open to
debate.

290
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,920
We also both contributed to a
special issue of a journal where

291
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,960
we kind of wrote.
I wanted more of a debate from

292
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,920
him.
I he, he claims he's supporting

293
00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:50,880
determinism, but he's really
not.

294
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,440
When I you press him the, the
classic determinism that there's

295
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,400
only one possible future, He
doesn't, he doesn't believe that

296
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,840
all he means is that things are
caused, which the philosophical

297
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,000
term is causalism.
And I have no problem with that.

298
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,280
To me, free will would be just
another kind of cause or another

299
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:14,040
set of causes, probably.
So I don't have any, any, any

300
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,320
trouble with that.
So I think we're, we're, we're

301
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,080
closer than than he thinks.
He, he thought free will meant

302
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,160
that you're exempt from
causality, that the you act

303
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,560
independently of everything else
that ever happened or the rest

304
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,840
of the world.
And I don't believe in that.

305
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:30,680
I don't see why that would
evolve.

306
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,680
When I say that the human mind
evolved to participate in

307
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,240
culture, that means you have to
be highly responsive to a very

308
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:43,080
complex environment.
It, it, it makes no sense to, to

309
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,600
be immune to the environment, to
to be to shut it out, to act

310
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,200
independently of it.
No, it's to act to your

311
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,360
advantage within an environment
that's defined by multiple

312
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:57,920
possibilities.
I just, I had a conversation and

313
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,760
I just got an e-mail just now
from Professor Kevin Mitchell.

314
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:02,160
I don't know if you're familiar
with his work.

315
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:03,920
He wrote a book called Free
Agents.

316
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,600
I don't know that one.
It's it's, it's very good.

317
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,960
I think you should give it a
read if you ever get a chance.

318
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,400
Talks about the evolution of
free will over time.

319
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,360
And he gives you this wonderful
story of how we become sort of

320
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:20,120
free agents.
Professor Kevin Mitchell.

321
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,680
But yeah, he sent me an e-mail
today about, well, the similar

322
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:26,600
thing.
I mean, this causation versus

323
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,320
the difference in the way people
look at determinism, I mean,

324
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,160
there is a sort of a slight
difference between determinism

325
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,160
and and the causalism you're
talking about.

326
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,480
Who?
Whose arguments have you found

327
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,880
the most compelling against free
will?

328
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,040
Against free will.
Well, I agree with a lot of the

329
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,520
people who are against it
because they're defining free

330
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:55,840
will as a being independent of
all causes or as like having a

331
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,720
soul that causes behavior
independent of physical

332
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,480
processes.
I can quote some biologists who

333
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:06,200
say that that's what that means.
So if you define free will that

334
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,120
way, then I I totally agree with
him.

335
00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:10,040
I don't, I don't, I don't
believe in that.

336
00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:14,520
I mean, on souls, I try to be
agnostic.

337
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,720
I'm not religious, but I respect
religion.

338
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,040
But it's clearly not a
scientific theory.

339
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:25,520
There's no scientific work on on
souls, and so incorporating them

340
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:31,360
into the causal sequence seems
seems a stretch that certainly

341
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:39,360
I'm not willing to make.
So sorry I don't know this this

342
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:41,440
Mitchell one.
I've, I've read lots of the

343
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:46,600
other books and I've had plenty
of my own laboratory work.

344
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,520
And while you're doing that, of
course you have to know

345
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,040
everybody else's laboratory work
in the same area.

346
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:59,400
So I know lots of that stuff.
And that's that's what I'm what

347
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,960
I'm basing that on.
I'm I'm pretty sure you've read

348
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,040
Just Desserts by with the.
Yes, yeah.

349
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,960
So I mean, I found that argument
with Dirk Pierboom and Greg

350
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,600
Russo a little bit more at least
founded upon the moral argument,

351
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,280
which is quite fascinating to
see how hard incompatibilism can

352
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,760
can discuss blameworthiness,
praiseworthiness and how they're

353
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,440
giving sort of positive aspects
to that.

354
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,800
I'm we don't necessarily agree
with it, but I think those

355
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,160
arguments are actually a little
bit more along the lines of what

356
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,480
you're trying to talk about.
There is this moral

357
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,720
significance, there is a a very
valuable economic significance

358
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,720
and information transmission
significance.

359
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,400
So would would you say that
those arguments are a little

360
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,640
better because we're almost
talking about the same thing at

361
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:52,160
that point?
Yes, OK, I I read that book

362
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,000
about two or three years ago
and.

363
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,040
I also can't remember it as much
as I would say.

364
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,920
I have quotations from it and
alluded to in the book, but I

365
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:03,320
don't remember all this
particular things they said.

366
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,280
You're certainly right.
I remember the the high emphasis

367
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,640
on morality.
And, and that gets to one of the

368
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,520
points, why do people care about
free will at all?

369
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,120
And probably the biggest reason
is, is morality.

370
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,840
And Nietzsche said that
theologians invented the idea of

371
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,600
free will so they could punish
their neighbors for doing things

372
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,480
that are wrong.
And Nietzsche was given to sort

373
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,240
of cynical, sarcastic ways of
saying things.

374
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,800
But the point is is basically,
basically correct and profound.

375
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,640
In fact, we even had lab studies
that showed that if people read

376
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,360
about someone else doing
something morally bad, their own

377
00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:44,600
belief in free will moves up a
little bit.

378
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,360
They're more insistent that, you
know, the person should not have

379
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,760
have done that.
I mean, what's become obvious to

380
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:57,040
me is most moral judgments or
should the person have acted

381
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,000
differently in that situation?
And that assumes that the person

382
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,720
could have acted differently.
So the assumption of free will

383
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:11,720
really underlies a great deal,
if not all moral judgement and

384
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,000
and society works that way.
And, and again, it's the

385
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,600
extension over time that makes
it much more powerful.

386
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:22,040
You could in in theory have a
morality among animals who just

387
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:27,240
lived in the present.
Although if you read like

388
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,880
Tomasello's Natural History of
Morality, he doesn't think even

389
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,280
the the smartest, the
chimpanzees, really get there

390
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,920
all the way to to morality.
There are a few transitional

391
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,400
steps, but again, this is
something that that humans and

392
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,880
all societies have morals as far
as we know, and no animal

393
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:50,640
societies have them anyway.
You could in principle have them

394
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,760
understand morality as, but
living in the present, it would

395
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,560
lose its force 'cause if you did
something immoral, well, So

396
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,040
what?
There'd be no, no consequences.

397
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,040
But in a small group, which is
how we evolved.

398
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,880
And living in a small group, you
lied to someone a few times.

399
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,800
Everyone else will know that and
they will remember that.

400
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,200
And so it's going to be a long
time before people will trust

401
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,080
you again.
And that's going to hamper your

402
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,960
abilities to function and even
to to, to get food and shelter

403
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:29,640
and, and mate, it's like.
You you're reminding me of when

404
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,280
I spoke to Noam Chomsky and he
said everybody who's who says

405
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,560
free will does not exist always
acts as if it does so they're.

406
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,440
Always.
Yeah, yeah, it's like the no

407
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,840
self people.
It's sort of a a intellectual

408
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,880
thing.
I I used to be a a determinist

409
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,680
myself for a while.
I was remember being smitten by

410
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,720
the elegance of the thing that
everything is inevitable and

411
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,440
science determines it all and
the laws of physics with are are

412
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,200
unchangeable and therefore
everything in the future is

413
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:07,720
already predetermined.
And I don't mean to disrespect

414
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,800
the serious scientists who
believe in it, but I look back

415
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,920
on that as as intellectual
masturbation.

416
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,280
It's not the world we live, we
live in.

417
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:20,800
It's, you know, you have to make
decisions and you have to

418
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,200
confront multiple possibilities
and and you'll be judged on

419
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,440
whether you should have done
something else or not that

420
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,600
situation.
When did the that view change?

421
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,360
Was there?
Was there a particular moment

422
00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:36,080
where you realized it, or was it
just a gradual change in your

423
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:41,800
view?
I think it was somewhat gradual.

424
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,920
I, I remember some conversations
when I was insisting on

425
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:50,520
everything because there was a,
an older man who I, I, when I

426
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,400
was a boy, I stayed with his
family and then I grew up.

427
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,400
I went back and visited him
again and then he was talking

428
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:57,920
about it.
He was a very wise man.

429
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,040
And he said, well, like, I'm not
sure why, but the, the human

430
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,680
does have some degree of
freedom.

431
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,240
And so I thought, well, if
somebody that's smart and wise,

432
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,280
I should continue that view.
And then over the years I

433
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,480
started looking at things more
from both sides.

434
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,880
And yeah, the determinism is
really useless.

435
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,160
I just have a paper accepted
arguing that it's, it's really

436
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,520
useless for psychology to assume
determinism because almost

437
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,480
everything psychology is
explaining is people in

438
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,800
environments with multiple
possibilities.

439
00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:32,960
How do they make their choices?
How do they react to threats and

440
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,880
opportunities?
And dangers and pursue success

441
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,920
rather than failure.
And for the determinist to come

442
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,440
along and say, well, it was
really inevitable that that

443
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,880
would happen anyway, it's
completely unhelpful.

444
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,280
It adds nothing.
In fact, it just blinds you to

445
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,720
the important thing, which is
the person sees that there is a

446
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,280
threat, which means something
bad might happen, but might not.

447
00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:03,160
And and so you change your
behavior so you make it not

448
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:08,200
happen if possible or again,
opportunity or success, failure,

449
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:14,280
anything else like that.
That's what we need to explain.

450
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,400
And the idea that it's
inevitable and all laid out in

451
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,880
advance.
And it isn't really, it's really

452
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,880
intellectual view from a couple
centuries ago.

453
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,440
I understand Spinoza was was
sort of criticized for being

454
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,000
that sort of material
determinist.

455
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,560
He was criticized because they
thought it didn't it.

456
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,320
It went against Christianity and
contradicted the notion of free

457
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,320
will as our back and forth.
The most famous statement of

458
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:47,080
determinism was by Laplace in
the early 1800s who said, you

459
00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:51,440
know, if you knew all the the
distance of every particle and

460
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,880
all the laws of nature, you
could calculate the future with

461
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,960
100% accuracy.
But in the 20th century, both

462
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,280
science and philosophy moved
seriously beyond that.

463
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:09,240
The the relativity said that
there's no simultaneous moment

464
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:14,560
of the universe, so you couldn't
have the the preconditions for

465
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,600
Laplace's thought experiment.
And modern physics suggests that

466
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,400
some randomness or indeterminacy
is there in nature at the

467
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,280
subatomic level.
Now some philosophers try to

468
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,560
link that to free will, but must
think that that won't really

469
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,200
won't really work, that the the
tiny little subatomic particles

470
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,800
bounce this way or that way even
in identical situations.

471
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:45,120
That doesn't doesn't help
explain human freedom at all.

472
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,840
But meanwhile in philosophy we
had phenomenology, which

473
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,120
privileges conscious experience,
and then existentialism, which

474
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,840
sort of emphasizes the conscious
experience of choice.

475
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,520
It, it's noteworthy, of course,
that there are no theories as

476
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,560
far as I can find of unconscious
free will.

477
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,680
It, it, it's always associated
with the conscious choice and

478
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,120
being aware of the alternatives
and finding a way to decide that

479
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,240
I want to do this one rather
than that one.

480
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,960
So that's, that's a crucial
aspect of that.

481
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,520
And, and that really moves us
beyond this deterministic

482
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,320
worldview, the clockwork
universe.

483
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,720
It's just obsolete.
It was an inspiring vision at a

484
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,680
time.
And like I said, I was, I was

485
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,960
taken in and I was inspired by
it for a while.

486
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,200
But it it really, it's really
helping.

487
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,880
When I look at your years,
decades of work, it, I feel like

488
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,320
it was almost inevitable that
you had to at some point write a

489
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,280
book on free world because I
mean, you start off with like

490
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:56,160
self esteem, the self,
self-control, There's so many

491
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,360
aspects, ego depletion.
I mean, it's almost like you had

492
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:05,040
no choice but.
I actually got into it when it

493
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,000
was, it was the research on ego
depletion, which is the idea

494
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,640
that self-control depends on a
limited energy supply.

495
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,680
And so this energy supply is an
important part of the self.

496
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,920
And when we discovered that the
same is used for making

497
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,640
decisions and choices, then we
had a link there.

498
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,720
And then I pay it's, it's more
than self-control.

499
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,440
And I saw that, you know, I'd
read philosophy for a long time

500
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,600
off and on.
The philosophers, when they talk

501
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,320
about free will, they have
examples of self-control and

502
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,800
they have examples of rational
choice, but they don't really

503
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,800
have any way of saying that
those are linked, that those are

504
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,120
the same thing.
But but then we did

505
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,560
psychologically, because we can
make people make a bunch of

506
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,240
choices and then show that their
self-control is impaired or the

507
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,400
other way around, have them use
up their willpower on

508
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,760
self-control and then their
decision making gets much more

509
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:05,440
simple minded.
So there's an underlying,

510
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,200
probably physiological structure
that attends both.

511
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,680
So that's what made me think I
needed a bigger, a bigger

512
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,320
concept.
And well, I said this.

513
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,520
This must be what free will is
about.

514
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,400
It's hard to believe that
there's that there's something

515
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,600
called free will that doesn't
involve self-control and

516
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,680
rational choice.
As I said, if there's no free

517
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,120
will, this is at least what's
commonly mistaken for it.

518
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,080
And just, well, just, and just
to clarify for any of the

519
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,400
listeners of viewers who are not
familiar with some of your work

520
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,360
on ego depletion at the time, I
think the main understanding was

521
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,440
that it's a, it must be sort of
a computer like system.

522
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,640
I mean, if we, if we gain
information prior, we should

523
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,520
have more priors and then
therefore be able to like a

524
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,120
computer, be able to answer
questions better and have be

525
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:55,720
more effective with whatever
we're doing.

526
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,000
But your work sort of proved the
reverse, no?

527
00:31:58,440 --> 00:31:59,760
The opposite.
Yeah, That's, that's good.

528
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,680
You saw that, that connection.
Yeah, back when we first came up

529
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,240
with these findings in the 90s,
psychology was all smitten with

530
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,240
me.
The mind is like a computer and

531
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,080
information processing was
everything.

532
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,760
I used to joke that energy
models were so out of fashion

533
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,480
that we weren't even against
them anymore.

534
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:23,040
But it really looked like energy
gets depleted and to.

535
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,280
And we found it.
So you have to pursue your

536
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:30,000
analogy, if if you have your
computer working on one task

537
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,720
and, you know, doing word
processing or whatever, and then

538
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,960
you give it another one, it's
faster 'cause it's already doing

539
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,400
that.
So by analogy, if it's already

540
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,400
engaged in self-control, it
should do better on another

541
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,120
self-control test that comes
along.

542
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,640
But we consistently found they
did worse, almost never found

543
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,520
the the other, the other kind of
effect.

544
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:56,200
So yeah, it was really way out
there at the time.

545
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:01,480
In the 90s, as luck would have
it, psychology got a lot more

546
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,280
interested in biological
processes around then.

547
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,480
It was the decade of the brain
was how they called the 90s.

548
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,800
And there were also genetic
studies and stuff.

549
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:14,360
And life is an energy process.
So suddenly energy became more

550
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,560
respectable again.
And so without having to change

551
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:22,080
my ideas, I, I came from the
fringe into more of the centre

552
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,760
in the mainstream.
But that was just the luck of

553
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,200
what was happening there.
But but absolutely, you're right

554
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,320
that the the computer models
would have predicted the

555
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,720
opposite.
Because I think today the most

556
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,800
prominent view in terms of
course of computational models

557
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,320
would be the Bayesian brain sort
of models.

558
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,760
Does does your view align with
that in in any ways?

559
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,960
Or do you find that they still
don't seem to align with those

560
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,440
views with those computational
models at least?

561
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,720
OK, well I have to preface here.
My last statistics class was in

562
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,360
1976, so it's been a while.
My recollection of the Bayesian

563
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,760
thing is a is a bit fuzzy.
I know you have prior

564
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,120
assumptions so you have to
explain where they came from.

565
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,239
But yes, you update them and
revise them in the light of new

566
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:09,960
things.
And you revise your

567
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,880
probabilities for projecting in
the future, which itself is not

568
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,920
a very deterministic process.
It's assuming there are multiple

569
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:20,400
probabilities, at least
subjectively.

570
00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:23,000
And determinist can allow
subjective you.

571
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:28,159
You might think something just
has a chance, but you know, to

572
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:31,560
the strict determinist, there's
no such thing as a mere chance.

573
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,719
It's either absolutely
guaranteed since The Big Bang

574
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,560
that it's going to happen or
it's not going to happen.

575
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:40,239
But that's not how people
operate.

576
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:45,080
And they operate more in this
sense of, yeah, oh, I guess, you

577
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,159
know, I'm not as good at tennis
as I thought.

578
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,480
So you revise your, your initial
assumption in there and that

579
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:56,000
that, yeah, I think we all have
to be consistent with that.

580
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,320
It's hard to to get around that.
So there's a a profound insight

581
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,400
there.
Now there may be more subtleties

582
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,200
to the whole Bayesian stuff,
which as I said, I'm not not yet

583
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,400
to at.
The time Roy did when?

584
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,880
When you did this, I mean, I'm
assuming it was very

585
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,000
controversial at the time, The
ego depletion theory

586
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,920
specifically, do you feel at
this very moment currently it

587
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,800
still holds up or cause 'cause I
think I see some studies online

588
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,080
where they say that they they
don't, so they're they're unable

589
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:28,400
to replicate this phenomenon.
Is that true, or is the study

590
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:33,280
just flawed somehow?
There's something like 700 or

591
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,000
800 published studies with
finding the effect, so it's

592
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,240
definitely true.
I've looked.

593
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:42,960
I know there was a famous
failure, they, they called it a

594
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,640
failure to replicate, but it
wasn't actually a replication.

595
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,560
They sort of did a watered down
version of a, of a rather weird

596
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,000
experiment.
But it looks like what they're

597
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,880
doing when they fail to get it
is they fail to, to provide a

598
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,200
test of it.
See, you have to do 2 things.

599
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,840
You have to, I mean, it's a form
of fatigue, right?

600
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,520
Mental fatigue, ego depletion.
You've used up some of your

601
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,880
willpower.
So you have to get people to use

602
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:12,240
enough use it up first in the
depleted condition and not in a

603
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:15,800
control condition, and then you
measure something else.

604
00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:19,000
But if they just go through the
motions in the 1st and people

605
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,920
don't really exert self-control,
then they don't use their

606
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:23,720
willpower.
So it's not a test.

607
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,560
This is a big problem throughout
social psychology.

608
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,320
A year or two ago we reviewed
all the multi lab.

609
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,880
This is when they get 20
different laboratories to run

610
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,120
the same experiment.
It seemed initially like a great

611
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,400
idea, but to do that big an
operation, you want to get it

612
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,280
all streamlined and be as simple
as possible and fast.

613
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,280
And that means they'll they'll
do a A5 or six minute

614
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:53,160
manipulation of of of fatigue.
You know my, my colleagues in

615
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,800
France who are really studying
the effect on on ego depletion

616
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,760
on sports, they have people do
these metal tasks for 20 or 30

617
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,160
minutes and then then much more
reliable effects.

618
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:12,320
So if, as I said, this is a,
this is an issue throughout

619
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:17,360
social psychology, we, we found
36 of these projects that have

620
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,600
been published and there were
only four that had worked,

621
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:24,280
including one on ego depletion.
So that puts it in very select

622
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,760
company in terms of quality of
replication.

623
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,480
I think that's a good case to be
considered the best replicated

624
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:35,120
finding in in social psychology.
But again, it has to assume you

625
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,160
have to manipulate the
independent variable and there

626
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,560
are lots of the others that
failed on other topics of these

627
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,520
these multi lab manipulations,
we have what's called a

628
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,520
manipulation check.
So if you're trying to study,

629
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,560
say the effects of anxiety on
test taking, you manipulate.

630
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,680
So half the people, you put them
in a state of high anxiety and

631
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,640
half in low anxiety.
And then you have them take a

632
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,680
test and usually what you'll do
it after the anxiety

633
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,760
manipulation.
You have them, right?

634
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,640
How do you feel?
Do you feel?

635
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,640
And so then they can compute the
average.

636
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,360
And if the high anxiety group
isn't reporting that they're

637
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,440
more anxious than the low
anxiety group, then you're not

638
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,040
learning anything about anxiety
from the experiment.

639
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,000
You can't test the difference.
You might do do the study and

640
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,040
nothing comes out and you say,
OK, we didn't replicate the

641
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,760
finding anxiety has no effect on
test performance.

642
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:33,760
But, and draw that conclusion
because you you didn't whatever

643
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,560
you did to create anxiety didn't
work.

644
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,520
Or there's also the possibility
that what you did in the control

645
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,920
condition created anxiety too.
Yeah, my, my colleagues, they

646
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,160
said when they, they were
starting to develop this longer

647
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,760
manipulation, so they would make
sure people really depleted.

648
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,840
They had the control condition,
just do a test that was really

649
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:57,360
easy for 30 minutes, but it was
so boring that it really

650
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,960
bothered them and they had to
push themselves to keep doing

651
00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:03,440
this really boring task.
So they ended up depleted too.

652
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,560
So if if you want, you know, a
high quality reliable failure to

653
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,320
replicate something, you need a
manipulation, you need to show

654
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,640
that the manipulation check
worked, that again, that the

655
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,680
high anxiety condition was more
anxious than the low anxiety

656
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,320
condition and then no result on
the dependent variable.

657
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,280
I don't find that level of
failure on pretty much anywhere

658
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,920
on ego depletion.
I mean, in hundreds of studies,

659
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:33,840
there must be one or two just by
chance.

660
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,800
But it's a, it's a very reliable
effect.

661
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,400
Somebody counted up already six
or seven years ago that there

662
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:48,120
were over 600 published studies.
Most of them has significant

663
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,440
results and none in the opposite
direction.

664
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,600
So sometime you say that, well,
maybe you just got lucky and

665
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,920
things turned out based on
chance, which can happen when

666
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,760
you, you know, just do one
experiment and you maybe measure

667
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:04,480
a lot of things and try out.
So especially with a small

668
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:09,840
sample, occasionally you will
get a random random result, but

669
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,200
random results should go in both
directions.

670
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,600
So if if your anxiety experiment
is producing a random result,

671
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:24,280
you know, half the time it'll be
the low anxious people who, who

672
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:29,880
do worse on the on the test.
And, and there's none of that

673
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,120
with ego depletion either, you
know, findings in the opposite

674
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:35,880
direction.
Well, actually there are two,

675
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,640
but they're highly set up to be
in the opposite direction.

676
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:43,760
One of them is mine and it, it's
highly meaningful.

677
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,160
The the other one is cooler.
Actually.

678
00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:52,160
They, they showed that when they
have interracial interactions in

679
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,200
the US, you know, the white and
black thing is very, very tense

680
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,160
right now.
So that white people are nervous

681
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,800
as well where they'll say the
wrong thing and be accused of

682
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,440
racism.
So the black people actually

683
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,840
like the white people better
when the white people are

684
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,840
depleted, if they put them
through depletion manipulation

685
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,560
first.
So that in a sense the opposite

686
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,960
finding that you actually do
better, but it's because you

687
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,800
quit worrying about, oh, I've
got to be careful not to say

688
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,280
this word or that word or, or
apply this, or they'll take

689
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,040
offense at the slightest thing
and they just sort of relax and

690
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,200
be themselves.
And so people like them better.

691
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,040
So that's, that's one of the
opposite ones.

692
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,480
The other has to do with the
leaders deciding what to do.

693
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,080
But essentially, you know, in
terms of pure ego depletion

694
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,640
studies, they're not in the
opposite, no findings the

695
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,200
opposite direction.
There's some null ones, which as

696
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,400
I said, are mostly failure to,
to manipulate the variable

697
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,960
properly.
You gotta get people to put in

698
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:54,480
the effort so, so that they get
mentally fatigued in, in, in

699
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,080
this way.
And then it works very reliably.

700
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,600
This so many different topics we
could talk about with with you

701
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,240
because you've written on so
many different things.

702
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:06,400
I mean, yourself esteem work and
positive psychology.

703
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,760
I mean, right now, positive
psychology is one of the biggest

704
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,200
things.
If you go online, it's, it's all

705
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:15,640
about re affirming your positive
biases, talking about positive

706
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,520
things, looking in the mirror,
telling yourself how great you

707
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,080
are.
And I mean, you've shown in

708
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,360
various different ways how it
doesn't always work.

709
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,640
I mean, it's it, it's, it
actually does not work for the

710
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:27,680
most part.
Do you want to talk about that?

711
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,600
A.
Little bit.

712
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,720
Well, at the moment I'm
president of the International

713
00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:36,720
Positive Psychology Association.
I, I'm not going to speak

714
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:38,960
negative about it.
I mean, I think we should be

715
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:43,120
critical.
And yes, there have been times

716
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,720
when people were overly positive
about about things.

717
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,200
I'm I'm friends with Martin
Seligman who started it, and

718
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,120
that's why he insisted all along
we have to be very rigorous with

719
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,680
research.
There was a earlier movement of

720
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,920
humanistic psychology which had
a lot of the same ideas that

721
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,800
health is not just the absence
of disease and we got to look at

722
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,160
ways to help people flourish and
all that.

723
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:11,280
And so in some ways, positive
psychology took over the same

724
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,320
space, which some of the older
folks resent a little bit.

725
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,920
Well, I think it's a continuum,
but, but like obviously people

726
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,440
are taking it a little too far.
I mean, it is obviously a great

727
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,240
thing to have, but.
Yes, yeah, yeah.

728
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:27,760
And that's inevitable.
The thing will some people will

729
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,640
carry it too far and so on.
But I think it's a a positive

730
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,040
trend in psychology.
It's something and obviously we

731
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,520
had the first priority to curing
sickness.

732
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,680
So getting people from being
miserable to being nothing to

733
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,720
being zero, that that took
precedence.

734
00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:49,720
But it doesn't stop there.
If you can take people from zero

735
00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:53,360
to +5, that's that's even
better.

736
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,760
Probably harder to do because
one of my most cited papers is

737
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,360
called Bad is Stronger than
Good.

738
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:07,400
That it was just a a pattern we
found everywhere that negative

739
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,720
stimuli have more impact on the
mind than positive ones.

740
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,160
And your negativity, negativity
bias works also vary.

741
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:15,960
That's another thing.
I mean, there's so many things

742
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:17,640
you can chat about.
Yeah.

743
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:25,360
Could you continue?
Just I was, I was just saying

744
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,200
the positive psychologists
actually like this.

745
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,840
The bad is stronger than good.
One thing it explains the need

746
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:36,360
for positive psychology, because
we need, we need a lot of

747
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,040
positive things.
It's, you know, a few big bad

748
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:43,080
things can have a lot more
impact than than there are a few

749
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,960
things that are that good.
I recall once one of my

750
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,920
colleagues was running a study
where he asked married couples

751
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:54,240
to remember something really bad
that their partner did.

752
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,520
And then she didn't want them to
leave the lab, you know,

753
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,120
thinking badly their partners.
So at the end she had them,

754
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,240
well, think of something good
that the partner did.

755
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,680
And, you know, the bad things
were often really bad and the

756
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,280
good things were, Oh, well, you
know, she brought me soup when I

757
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,440
was sick or whatever.
You know, they're not nearly at

758
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,480
the same level.
So, so she said still wasn't

759
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,080
working.
So what they they finally did is

760
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,640
they have the partner name 10
different things that the good

761
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,120
things that the partner did and
that seemed to enable them to

762
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:31,720
leave in a more positive mood.
So we need a lot of sort of

763
00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:33,600
small positive things to
encourage.

764
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,360
And I think positive psychology
has done really well finding a

765
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,560
variety of these things to
cultivate and promote and, and

766
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:46,040
how people can do them.
I think it also explains again

767
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:51,680
why psychology started out on
the negative side because, well,

768
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,320
you find a focus on people's
problems and plus the effects

769
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:59,400
are bigger with the new science,
with the new methods, you want

770
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,640
to get a significant result.
It's easier to get a bad effect

771
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,880
than a good effect.
That paper bad is stronger than

772
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,320
good.
It's been cited, which means

773
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,160
it's been listed in the
reference section of over 10,000

774
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:16,240
other scientific publications.
And it's mostly because people

775
00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:18,880
are saying, there it is again.
You know, they'll do something

776
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,360
like there'll be a positive
condition and a negative

777
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,840
condition, which are roughly the
same, and then a neutral

778
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,720
control.
But when they get the data, the

779
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:29,600
neutral control is a lot closer
to the positive than the

780
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,320
negative.
And so the reviewers will say,

781
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,080
well, why is that?
You know, you've got a condition

782
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,520
where you gain $5, another
condition where you lose $5.

783
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,280
And the, the, the, the neutral
one in the middle, people are

784
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,720
more upset about losing $5, then
they're happy about the gaining

785
00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:49,440
$5.
And so this, this pattern comes

786
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,120
up over and over again.
And so it helps people respond

787
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,120
to the reviewers by saying,
well, that's, that's a very

788
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,960
typical pattern.
From a social psychology

789
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:05,600
perspective, do you think that
the bias will slowly wouldn't

790
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,200
say evolve out or like change
over time?

791
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,680
So let's say if this movement
continues for the next 50 years,

792
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,480
do you think that the flip side
will start to occur or do you

793
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,920
think it will continuously be
ingrained into our sort of DNA

794
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,880
structural thinking and the way
we always will perceive things?

795
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,480
You mean the greater power of
negativity?

796
00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:30,760
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's
going to persist.

797
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,400
It is so widespread.
We already set out to to review

798
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,400
the literature.
I'd only seen it in a couple

799
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:38,880
different places.
And so I said, well, let's see

800
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:40,320
where it's true and where it's
not true.

801
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,560
And then that'll enable us to
say why it happens and when it

802
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:48,320
happens, and to, you know, make
a very interesting theory.

803
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,200
It was a good approach, but the
problem was it was always true.

804
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:57,440
We couldn't really find
exceptions so well, that was

805
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,040
disappointing because all our
pet theories didn't come true

806
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,640
and it wasn't going to be a
complicated, interesting idea.

807
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,120
It was going to be fairly simple
minded.

808
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,280
But on the other hand it had the
excitement that this must be one

809
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,280
of the basic principles of how
the mind works, which also

810
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,960
suggests that it's deeply
ingrained, probably from

811
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:17,920
evolution.
In fact, I think we did find

812
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:22,760
some studies with the rats and
so on where they showed the the

813
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,040
same effect.
It's, it's, it's trickier to do

814
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:30,520
that with rats since they can't
talk and tell you things, but

815
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,880
you can look at how hard they
pull toward or away from

816
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:42,200
something and, well, it, it
looks like it's probably going

817
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:47,160
back fire in evolution, probably
for basic reasons that if you

818
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:50,600
miss an opportunity for
something good, well, that's too

819
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,240
bad.
But it's at the end of your

820
00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:55,080
life.
If you miss a predator who's

821
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,360
coming to eat you, you know,
that's it and life is over.

822
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:02,960
So it's more important to see
the dangers and threats first

823
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,320
and give priority to them.
The same with food.

824
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,360
Something makes you sick once,
you just won't won't eat it

825
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:13,640
again.
And it's a Professor Randolph

826
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,960
Nessie calls it the smoke
detector principle, I mean.

827
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:18,560
We have.
Yeah, I know him.

828
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,520
Yeah, he's he's very smart.
I don't collect his work.

829
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,240
Yeah, yeah, you have to.
If, if, if your smoke detector

830
00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:25,960
goes off, you should assume
there's a fire and then just get

831
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,080
out of the building.
So because the one that it is,

832
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:34,120
you will probably die.
Yes, yes, yes, yeah.

833
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:38,400
I remember when I went to
college, they'd put in smoke

834
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,440
detectors and they were much
overreacting.

835
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,040
So they would go on fairly
often.

836
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,040
And we, you know, at first it's
alarming, but we gradually

837
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:54,160
learned just to slam the door
and wait till it got shut off,

838
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,320
that if there had been a fair
fire, it would have been a

839
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,400
problem.
Nessie would have had a a great

840
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,880
point there.
And so a a fire detector that a

841
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,560
smoke detector that goes off too
much is not really useful.

842
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,480
Yeah, the, it's also, what's
also intriguing to me is, I

843
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,680
mean, we've got these negativity
biases and, and we focus on

844
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:17,760
these things because obviously
it helps to keep us alive for

845
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,120
the most part.
And today, obviously

846
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,920
psychologically on the Internet,
it's not a good trait to have.

847
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,560
But I mean, we never see it.
We, we, we could not see this

848
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:27,120
coming.
But then you also have the flip

849
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:28,160
side.
You've got this also this

850
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,640
positivity recollection sort of
bias.

851
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,160
So I remember once when we were
in Med school, we were, we were

852
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:37,080
reading these papers on how when
you're finished with Med school,

853
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,840
after all those years of trauma,
you look back and the only thing

854
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:42,440
you focus on is getting the
degree.

855
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,480
You know, those that main that
main?

856
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:47,560
OK.
Fine, but I've got this degree

857
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,480
and it makes me, it makes me a
doctor.

858
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:51,880
It's quite cool.
So we also have these ingrained

859
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,280
positivity biases that which is
quite fascinating as well.

860
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:59,000
It's mainly with with memory
that there is the the editing.

861
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,960
There's an early paper by Shelly
Taylor who said, well, when

862
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,360
there's something bad happens,
the the mind mobilizes and

863
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,520
minimizes.
It mobilizes its resources to

864
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:14,360
cope in the present, and then it
gradually tries to minimize it

865
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,360
in the past.
It's still there in your memory,

866
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:24,080
but you try not to dwell on it.
And some people are more

867
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,920
successful than others at doing
that.

868
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:33,400
Now, there's a personality style
called the repressor, who, you

869
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,160
know, reports that everything
is, is good and they're every

870
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,520
positive and upbeat.
Someone said, well, they do.

871
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,000
They just not have bad memories.
And somebody probed them and,

872
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,840
and they have as many bad
memories as other people.

873
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:46,800
They just never think about
them.

874
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,560
They're sort of walled off.
You know, Freud talked about

875
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:52,640
isolation as a defense
mechanism.

876
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:56,320
If you don't make a lot of
associations to something, then

877
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,240
it doesn't come up very often.
The opposite would be depressed

878
00:51:59,240 --> 00:52:03,760
people for whom everything bad
is sort of tied in to everything

879
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:06,960
else that's bad.
And so as soon as something goes

880
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,440
wrong, it reminds them of this
and reminds them of this and

881
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:11,960
reminds them of this.
And they can go on and on to

882
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:17,200
this long chain of of doomed
thoughts, which is why they're

883
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:18,560
not that much fun to hang out
with.

884
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,680
Tell me, Roy, when, when you
wrote Willpower, because that's,

885
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,360
I mean, that's a New York Times
seller that that book really did

886
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:32,400
well.
I mean, you used a, a folk word,

887
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,360
normal word that everybody uses
day-to-day ordinary language.

888
00:52:35,720 --> 00:52:38,480
And you did that purposefully.
You just want to do, you just

889
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:40,680
want to run through that a
little bit as to why you chose

890
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:42,520
that word, because now we can
talk about all.

891
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,520
Right.
I I wrote it with John Tierney.

892
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,960
He was New York Times science
writer and very gifted writer,

893
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:50,280
such a pleasure to deal with
him.

894
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,000
So he suggested going to
Willpower.

895
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,640
I had resisted using the term up
to that point.

896
00:52:55,640 --> 00:53:00,880
The scientists in general, when
there's a folk term bringing in

897
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:04,240
a lot of baggage and
connotations and other ideas

898
00:53:04,240 --> 00:53:08,240
people have.
So we prefer to use jargon to

899
00:53:08,240 --> 00:53:11,000
develop our own term, not
because we want to confuse

900
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:19,120
people, just be just simply
because it's just because it's

901
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:30,200
more precise.
And so I hadn't wanted to say

902
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:34,320
willpower, but by after about 10
years, it was becoming clear to

903
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:38,000
me that this really was kind of
the same, the same thing.

904
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:42,760
So I started using it.
And then when John said, well,

905
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:44,600
is it, do you have a reason not
to use it for the book?

906
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,360
Because that's what people will
be be interested in and will

907
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:53,160
help it help it sell.
So I said, OK, let's, let's,

908
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,320
let's use it.
And so I've used it ever since,

909
00:53:55,320 --> 00:54:01,960
including my scientific
writings, but it was it, it was

910
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:06,520
so slow to do it for the first
ideas came out in sort of the

911
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:08,880
early 90s when it started
thinking along these lines.

912
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:12,680
And willpower was something like
2011.

913
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:19,000
So it had been at least a good
15 years before I said, well,

914
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,720
it's all right, let's, let's use
the will.

915
00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:24,920
Let's use the ordinary term to
connect with that.

916
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,960
I assuming the science of free
will you you expand on this on

917
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:31,600
this?
What are you fan of this?

918
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,400
Quote, by the way, that that
wasn't my term either.

919
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,320
I wanted to call it the case for
free will or the scientific case

920
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,920
for free will, but the
publishers were very insistent

921
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:42,440
about.
Always wishing for the for the

922
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:45,400
better, for the more captioning
title.

923
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:50,440
I, I, I guess, and sorry, I hope
they're right and it sells well.

924
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:53,480
It does.
And I I sort of look at the

925
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:57,080
title of a book as really more
of a marketing things.

926
00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:01,400
So in a sense, as an author,
I'll I've let them assuming they

927
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,240
know what they're doing, which
is a strong assumption, but I'll

928
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:08,800
let them make the title.
But anyway, yeah, that's the.

929
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,360
So what about that?
No, I was going to.

930
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,920
Say in, in in the science of
free world, do you do you use

931
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,360
and explore a lot of your ideas
from world power to to defend

932
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:20,160
your argument for freedom of the
world?

933
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,960
Well.
Directly sort of an indirect

934
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,560
approach.
The the book has a lot of short

935
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,600
chapters because I think with
the modern reader, they don't

936
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,280
have the attention span for the
long chapters the way we used

937
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:38,440
to.
That's what people are saying.

938
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:42,800
And so there's one short chapter
on the ego depletion because

939
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,160
it's a key part of it.
And then there's one that sort

940
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:47,760
of was a follow up to relate it
to other things.

941
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,000
So it's there.
It's not a big part of that

942
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:56,120
book, but but you know, again,
for me, the scientific challenge

943
00:55:56,120 --> 00:56:00,800
is to understand how this human
mental system works 'cause

944
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:02,280
there's nothing like it in
nature.

945
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,160
It's, it's radically different
even from how the the

946
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:09,240
chimpanzees are and gorillas and
orangutans, our closest

947
00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:15,280
relatives, how they behave.
So, and even even the skeptics

948
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,440
of free will agree that the
human system for controlling

949
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:22,440
action, the human mental system,
is, is, is radically different

950
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:25,440
from everything else.
So to me that's the scientific

951
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,280
challenge.
And and certainly the ego

952
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:33,000
depletion is, is, is part of
that, the limited energy aspect.

953
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,520
But there are plenty of others.
So I've tried to cover the whole

954
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,240
topic.
So yeah, as I said.

955
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:44,480
Certain animals, for example,
orcas, dolphins, those, I mean,

956
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:47,840
those, these, these aquatic
mammals that say that have these

957
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,280
complex relationships and seem
to have some sort of speech

958
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:52,800
that's quite intriguing and we
just don't understand it yet.

959
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:57,200
I find that those are the
closest we'd get in terms of

960
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:01,880
looking at some sort of societal
moral relationship occurring,

961
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:03,360
but we just don't understand
enough.

962
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,200
But I think they are the closest
to us.

963
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:08,440
Yeah, that's, that's
interesting.

964
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:13,360
And it's I, I confess I don't
really know that much about

965
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,360
dolphins, but I have heard
people say that.

966
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:17,080
And so it is.
It is a plausible case.

967
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:18,720
Yeah, it.
Was a recent.

968
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:22,800
It's still not that posed to us.
Have a sorry, sorry to, to

969
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:23,800
interrupt you there.
Alright.

970
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,600
There was a recent study done
about orcas and their language

971
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:29,520
system and, and the more they're
slowly decoding some of their

972
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:31,840
their patterns, they're starting
to realize that it's very

973
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:33,600
systemic.
It's very systematic.

974
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,840
Sorry, and and and purposeful in
a sense.

975
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:40,280
And that could be quite game
changing if we do sort of figure

976
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,520
out that they have a complex
language system.

977
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:47,800
Right, yes.
I mean, the conventional wisdom

978
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:51,320
is that linguistics don't really
think there's certainly

979
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:56,360
communication among a lot of
species, but it's it's doesn't

980
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:58,120
rise to the level of what
linguists say.

981
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:05,640
This is really a language and if
they resemble us that that is

982
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:07,800
not provoking interesting in a
different way.

983
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:10,800
I mean, why aren't I borrow our
biological relatives more

984
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:15,640
similar to us, has us in a
completely different environment

985
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:20,760
from the the orcas, the giant
whales who live in the ocean and

986
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:22,480
have a completely different
lifestyle.

987
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,960
Why would they come around to
having the same sort of mind

988
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:31,720
that we do when we live in
cities, buildings that we've

989
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:38,280
made with industrial processes
and building codes and

990
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:45,040
everything else?
So, you know, understanding

991
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:47,400
what's unique and essential
about human beings.

992
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:52,120
The main comparisons are our
closest relatives because we

993
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:56,080
evolved from a common ancestor
within our common ancestor with

994
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:01,000
with giant whales is is way
farther back.

995
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,440
Yeah, it is.
It is quite a leap.

996
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:04,840
What, what?
What are your thoughts on the

997
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:09,040
role of language in terms of our
understanding of the mind, free

998
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,720
will, consciousness and all
these concepts we discuss well?

999
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:19,920
That continues to be something I
I reflect on and learn new

1000
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:22,200
things.
Language Again, all human

1001
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:26,440
societies, as far as we know,
have language and know animal

1002
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:28,560
societies have a full-fledged
language.

1003
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:33,040
Maybe a couple really different
ones are getting close in some

1004
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:41,720
respect, but there are many
potential links.

1005
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,840
Obviously enables us first to
share information and have

1006
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:51,120
common understandings.
Second, it enables us to think

1007
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:55,200
more effectively because you can
organize information better with

1008
00:59:55,200 --> 01:00:04,840
language. 3rd, it's, it's
possible this is getting into

1009
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,880
some difficult ideas that I'm,
I'm just grappling with now.

1010
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:12,760
But you see, meaning always
postulates the opposite.

1011
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:16,600
You know, there can't be wet
unless there's dry.

1012
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:20,560
You know the concept of wet
requires dry and high and low

1013
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:24,480
and good and bad and.
All these different ones, they

1014
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:27,920
sort of imply the opposite.
And so when you put a label on

1015
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:31,960
it, you imply the existence of
the opposite.

1016
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:33,800
It's this why?
Well, it could have been that

1017
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:35,480
it's wet, but it could have been
dry.

1018
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,320
Or it's it's wet, but it was dry
earlier.

1019
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:45,800
It changed.
And that then applying meaning

1020
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:51,280
to reality brings in more of, of
what Sarge called non being in

1021
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:56,680
his theory of consciousness,
which again, I read some time

1022
01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:00,440
ago, but still continues to to
affect me.

1023
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:03,760
You know, you can put it this
way, A computer sees what's

1024
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,080
there and it compare.
You can compare it with another

1025
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:11,080
idea, but it it doesn't have a
direct experience of something

1026
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,880
not being there the way we do.
If you're looking for your keys

1027
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:17,880
and you look on the desk and you
look in your pocket and you know

1028
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,000
your experiences, it's not
there.

1029
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:22,360
It's not like you're, oh, here's
my pocket.

1030
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:25,080
Now let me compare it with an
idea of what my pocket would

1031
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:31,920
feel like if my keys were in it.
So, so he thought a key part to

1032
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:36,280
understand consciousness was
this, this being a non being.

1033
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:40,320
I think other people call it
transparency that you, you hear

1034
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:46,040
a high pitched tone as high
pitched, but it, that's only

1035
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:48,480
meaningful if there could have
been a low pitched tone.

1036
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:55,360
So you're aware of the one
without the other.

1037
01:01:55,600 --> 01:02:01,920
Anyway, I, I, I, I think to some
degree language contributes to,

1038
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:08,160
to the power of consciousness
through this, this feature of

1039
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:10,920
meaning.
But I'm not completely convinced

1040
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:12,920
of that.
It's just an idea I've been I've

1041
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:15,640
been exploring and thinking
about.

1042
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:19,800
Is there anything else that
you're currently exploring

1043
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:22,440
except for Free World that you
just find utterly fascinating?

1044
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:30,560
Oh well, there are a bunch.
Yes, I have a big review article

1045
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:38,040
coming out on uncertainty that
some follow up papers in in

1046
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:45,240
there uncertainty is topic
that's, you know, of practical

1047
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:47,640
relevance.
It's something people face in

1048
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:49,720
their daily lives.
In fact, I think the United

1049
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:55,440
Nations a year or two ago said
global uncertainty is going up

1050
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:59,960
and it's one of the biggest
causes of problems in the world.

1051
01:02:59,960 --> 01:03:03,200
So uncertainty itself is is
inherently bad.

1052
01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:11,200
I'd had a APHD student who so
back when I was really getting

1053
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:15,960
high geared with the depletion
research, she said I think being

1054
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:18,440
exposed to uncertainty make is
depleting.

1055
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:22,400
And she read a whole bunch of
experiments which worked very

1056
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:24,440
consistently.
It put people through an

1057
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:28,000
uncertain experience and then
they would they would act like

1058
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:30,480
depleted people did.
It was a hard time getting them

1059
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:33,720
published because they wanted to
know exactly how or why.

1060
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:36,280
You know, this is the usual
psychological science.

1061
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:40,400
What are the inner processes?
So we thought, well, maybe if

1062
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:44,680
you're uncertain, you're trying
to keep several different lines

1063
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:46,920
of interpretation at the same
time.

1064
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:52,520
So like one of the manipulations
was we told people, oh, there's

1065
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:54,920
an experiment.
People are going to give a, give

1066
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:57,800
a little speech and, and, and
other people will listen to it

1067
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:00,400
and form an impression.
And mostly people, especially

1068
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:02,080
students are scared of giving
speeches.

1069
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:05,480
So this is a very negative idea.
And so some are told they're

1070
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:07,280
going to give a speech, some are
told they're not going to give a

1071
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:09,880
speech.
And some were told, oh, I don't

1072
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:12,400
have your assignment.
I'm going to have to go look it

1073
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:14,640
up.
So I'll get back and let you

1074
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:16,480
know in a minute.
And then we give them the

1075
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:19,960
measure while they're uncertain.
And it turned out uncertainty

1076
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:25,320
was worse than being sure of the
bad thing in terms of how badly

1077
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:27,800
they performed.
The uncertain people did worse.

1078
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:31,440
So we thought, well, are they at
the same time trying to think, I

1079
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:33,640
am going to give a speech, I'm
not going to give a speech.

1080
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:36,120
What is it like for this or that
one?

1081
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:39,120
Well, we couldn't find any
evidence that that that was

1082
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:43,920
true.
Anyway, we finally did get some

1083
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:46,040
of those studies published.
I think that the idea we came

1084
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:50,160
around with is uncertainty is a
cue to conserve resources.

1085
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:53,160
And so it mimics depletion,
cause depletion.

1086
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:55,440
It turns out we initially
thought, well, the brain is out

1087
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:58,800
of fuel so it can't do
self-control anymore.

1088
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:02,080
But that's, that's not right.
That's very soon overcame that.

1089
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:06,320
So after you exerted
self-control, then you start to

1090
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:09,960
conserve your, your resources,
which would be adaptive.

1091
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:14,720
So that could have easily
evolved and probably means we

1092
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:17,040
all have more self-control than
we think because we start

1093
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:20,280
conserving energy.
And, and that's the same with

1094
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:22,400
physical muscles.
You start to feel tired.

1095
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:25,240
Your brain sends out a tired
signal when the muscle's still

1096
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:28,040
perfectly capable of, of
performing at full level.

1097
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:30,800
There is a point at which the
muscle can't perform anymore,

1098
01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:33,160
but long before that you feel
tired.

1099
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:38,240
But I, I've read some of the
recent Physiology studies and so

1100
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:40,920
on, they'll have someone in and
have them do stuff and get to be

1101
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:44,080
tired and say, all right, we
need you to, to press as hard as

1102
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:46,960
you can one more time.
You know, we'll give you $5 or

1103
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:49,160
whatever.
And they can press just as hard

1104
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:51,720
as they did when they walked in,
even even after it.

1105
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:56,360
So, so tiredness and and ego
depletion are, are signals to

1106
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:59,600
conserve resources.
Now we think uncertainty is kind

1107
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:01,480
of the same signal, which would
make sense if you don't know

1108
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:04,720
what's happening in the future.
I just want to conserve your

1109
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:07,240
resources so you'll be better
able to to cope with it.

1110
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:10,160
What got me thinking this way?
Are there some studies with

1111
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:13,040
animals and when there's
uncertainty in the environment,

1112
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:18,120
they start saving food, they'll
start to squirrel it away and

1113
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:21,360
hide it or some of them even
just get fatter in an uncertain

1114
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:23,840
environment, which is storing
the food inside yourself.

1115
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:29,120
So, so and that again, that
would be adaptive, right 'cause

1116
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:32,560
if you know, maybe tomorrow
there's not going to be any

1117
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:36,560
food, it'd be better to have
some stored or have already

1118
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:41,040
eaten in it.
So, so you can have that anyway.

1119
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:44,400
That aspect of uncertainty was
interesting, we saw.

1120
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:46,080
That directly with COVID as
well.

1121
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:49,520
When, when, when people were
were told that you have to stay

1122
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:52,480
home, people rushed to the
stores, bought all the toilet

1123
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:54,400
paper during COVID they bought.
All the.

1124
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:57,480
Food they they could.
So we've seen this directly.

1125
01:06:57,520 --> 01:06:59,960
I mean, this is what we do.
Yes, yes, that's a good analogy.

1126
01:06:59,960 --> 01:07:03,600
Yeah.
The so the hoarding toilet paper

1127
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:10,120
for hence uncertainty.
Yes, so there's that.

1128
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:12,400
The uncertainty has positive
effects too.

1129
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:17,000
I'm thinking maybe the opposite
of uncertainty is boredom, and

1130
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:19,280
so you really want to sort of be
in the middle.

1131
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:23,160
I'll certainly have some space
of life aspect.

1132
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:26,160
Yeah.
And about.

1133
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:28,080
Like too much, too little is too
boring.

1134
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:29,520
Yeah, I get, I get where you're
coming from.

1135
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:31,960
So you kind of you need, you
need a little, but just to keep

1136
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:32,960
you going.
The.

1137
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:39,520
Roy, you went from so South self
esteem to self-control

1138
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:42,040
willpower, neither science or
free will.

1139
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:43,800
Where do you think you're going
to head off to this?

1140
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:48,520
I mean, if after certainty, I
mean, there's general artificial

1141
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:49,920
intelligence that people are
talking about.

1142
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:53,560
Do you think at some point that
that would be an approach, a

1143
01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:55,280
topic you would address in the
future?

1144
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:58,840
Because it's it's clearly become
the biggest thing people talk

1145
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:03,360
about today.
Yes, I, I, I don't know.

1146
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:05,480
I, I, so far I haven't really
made use of it.

1147
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:07,760
I think I got to start playing
around with it and learning

1148
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:09,560
about it.
And I was just talking to

1149
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:14,680
someone who's doing research on
sort of social robots and

1150
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:20,000
forming relationships with them.
And what do they need to do to

1151
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:23,399
make people feel like, you know,
they're having a relationship

1152
01:08:23,399 --> 01:08:25,720
with this artificial intelligent
person?

1153
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:30,560
It's related to two, sometimes
people when their spouse dies,

1154
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:35,479
they could have a, a hologram or
a artificial version that would

1155
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:38,520
talk to you.
Would that be creepy or would

1156
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:40,800
that be reassuring?
So there are a lot of

1157
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:46,720
interesting questions there.
I, I mostly review when there's

1158
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:49,279
a lot of research already been
done and try to put it together

1159
01:08:49,279 --> 01:08:52,560
for the big picture.
I don't think we'll be at that

1160
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:55,279
place for a while.
And I am with, with artificial

1161
01:08:55,279 --> 01:08:57,880
intelligence where there's a, a
lot to go on.

1162
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:07,279
So I have, you know, more books
I want to write, but that in

1163
01:09:07,279 --> 01:09:11,479
terms of coming up with no idea
about artificial intelligence

1164
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:16,080
and how it works that I, I could
write a book about I'm, I'm not

1165
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:19,279
confident of that happening
certainly in the next few years.

1166
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:23,960
How do you get the world power
to write hundreds of journals

1167
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:25,840
and over 40 books?
I mean, where do you get it

1168
01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:27,600
from?
It's pretty, it's pretty

1169
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:32,680
incredible.
Well, I, I'd say it's been a

1170
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:37,399
very nice job, but most people
when they start writing, at

1171
01:09:37,399 --> 01:09:40,439
first it's a real struggle to
make do it.

1172
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:43,800
But after a while, if you write
a lot, it becomes more and more

1173
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:47,319
automatic and you can
concentrate on interesting

1174
01:09:47,319 --> 01:09:50,840
parts.
So, I mean, officially I've

1175
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:53,680
retired twice, although I'm I'm
working all day every day.

1176
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:57,120
But I retired from two other
universities because it was a

1177
01:09:57,120 --> 01:09:59,080
way of staying connected after I
left them.

1178
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:05,560
But, you know, some of my
friends retire and then they're

1179
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:08,040
just done with working and done
with psychology.

1180
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:11,480
But I can't imagine what I would
do with my time.

1181
01:10:11,480 --> 01:10:15,320
Doing crossword puzzles is not
nearly as interesting as, you

1182
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:18,040
know, reading and thinking about
human beings.

1183
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:21,760
My matter called our basic
curiosity about people.

1184
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:26,240
So there's always more
interesting stuff to learn.

1185
01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:33,320
So I haven't, I mean I have good
self-discipline I guess and and

1186
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:38,440
so on, but I haven't suffered to
produce that much.

1187
01:10:38,440 --> 01:10:42,800
It was some of them were labours
of love and some of them were

1188
01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:45,800
chores.
But All in all, and I liked

1189
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:49,120
working with the young people.
I had a lot of fortunate to have

1190
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:55,920
a lot of talented PhD students,
and it's always fun to see them

1191
01:10:57,280 --> 01:10:58,960
start off.
They're beginning Graduate

1192
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:02,040
School and they don't know
what's what or how to do things.

1193
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:05,280
And then I like to go see them
after they've got a job and

1194
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:09,040
they're an assistant professor
and people are respecting them.

1195
01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:13,280
It's such a nice satisfying
feeling to, you know, maybe I

1196
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:17,400
helped a little bit or at least
didn't hurt them to reach their

1197
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:20,440
goal and become a, a successful
person.

1198
01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:23,760
So there have been a lot of
positives in there and I've

1199
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:27,600
I've, I've really enjoyed my
career.

1200
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:31,520
I think it it would have been,
it would have been a complete

1201
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:35,040
oxymoron if if you came out
writing all these books like

1202
01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:38,680
Willpower, self-control,
etcetera, and having not been

1203
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:40,920
the successful.
So it would be quite weird if

1204
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:43,800
you weren't able to actually
prove it by publishing over 40

1205
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:48,120
books being sighted at all these
times with because you are the

1206
01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:51,000
person who talks about habits
and self-control, self aware.

1207
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:54,400
So I think it fits perfectly and
beautifully.

1208
01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:57,200
So I thank you for your
contributions to the field.

1209
01:11:57,880 --> 01:11:59,000
Oh, well, thank you very much.
Yeah.

1210
01:11:59,440 --> 01:12:01,960
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's been
a pleasure to like to read your

1211
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:05,800
work, explore it and, and and I
can't wait to read the book when

1212
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:07,480
it comes out.
Anything about the book, Roy,

1213
01:12:07,480 --> 01:12:11,560
that you want to mention to the
audience to look forward to, to

1214
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:15,160
expect?
Oh, all on the free will book.

1215
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:19,600
I mean, there are several books
by by various things people

1216
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:22,080
saying, oh, there's no free
will, it's an illusion, blah,

1217
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:24,040
blah, blah.
So somebody should make the

1218
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:31,600
positive case which which I did.
And I think it's it's quite

1219
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:37,320
reasonable that certainly the
the humans, we have a an

1220
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:41,360
advanced form of by which the
mind controls actions.

1221
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:46,160
And I explain how it works.
And I think the term free will

1222
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:50,040
is is close enough.
Like I said, the free is less of

1223
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:56,600
a problem than the will part.
The will is a metaphor, but but

1224
01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:58,960
we do this.
It's highly useful and adaptive.

1225
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:01,400
It's something we all do every
day.

1226
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:04,960
I forget who you quoted who said
to the people who say they don't

1227
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:08,080
believe in free will.
I think it was Chomsky maybe.

1228
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:09,840
They still act like they have
it.

1229
01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:15,160
Yeah, I remember somebody was
somebody was was telling me in

1230
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:19,760
Germany, they had a a fellow
come who was really a starch

1231
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:23,080
determinist and everything.
And they asked them, was this

1232
01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:27,320
how you're raising your sons?
He said Oh no, they have to be

1233
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:29,120
held responsible for their
actions.

1234
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:33,320
It's, it's, it's, it's, it's,
it's very difficult to just

1235
01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:36,760
break away and just completely
believe, to fall into that

1236
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:40,640
belief to, to act that way.
I I think it's completely

1237
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:42,720
impossible for most humans.
Right, yes.

1238
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:46,640
So the world we live in has
multiple possibilities and and

1239
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:50,840
the choices have to be made.
If if someone if someone's

1240
01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:53,040
getting ready prepped and you
know they want to get your book,

1241
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:56,640
they want to read it, are there
any primers or or further

1242
01:13:56,640 --> 01:13:59,520
recommendation for reading that
they should that you'd recommend

1243
01:13:59,840 --> 01:14:02,200
they should check out in order
in order to prepare themselves

1244
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:04,160
to what for what you have to
say?

1245
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:11,440
Oh, mine is.
Is is written in a real, fairly

1246
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:15,520
layperson language.
It's, it's not that.

1247
01:14:17,120 --> 01:14:18,760
It's not that they need to read
other things.

1248
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:20,360
There are other interesting
books.

1249
01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:23,560
My friend Al Mele has written is
a philosopher.

1250
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:27,600
He's written a number of books
about free will for ordinary

1251
01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:30,640
people.
He's written others for

1252
01:14:31,360 --> 01:14:34,120
technical sophisticated
philosophers.

1253
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:39,560
But I think it's a recent one is
opinionated Guide.

1254
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:41,080
So that that's a pretty good
book.

1255
01:14:44,120 --> 01:14:47,080
Ken Sheldon had a nice, nice one
a year or two ago.

1256
01:14:48,080 --> 01:14:50,880
So there's some other good works
as well.

1257
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:54,120
But you don't need anything else
to understand, mind, it'll make

1258
01:14:54,120 --> 01:14:56,440
sense.
Roy, throughout your career with

1259
01:14:56,480 --> 01:15:01,000
growing up to now the are there
any philosophers or

1260
01:15:01,400 --> 01:15:04,280
psychologists, social
neuroscientists, etcetera, who

1261
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:08,160
inspired you, you, you think are
up there in that Mount Rushmore

1262
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:10,920
of yours for people to check
out?

1263
01:15:11,440 --> 01:15:15,080
I'm most curious to know if it's
not the best question because

1264
01:15:15,080 --> 01:15:18,040
obviously we're just
highlighting the best, but it's

1265
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:19,960
cute.
It's nice to know who you think

1266
01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:26,960
are some of the greatest.
All right, well, in training to

1267
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:31,440
think I did philosophy for a
while and I'm not sure other

1268
01:15:31,440 --> 01:15:34,160
people want to read this, but
reading Kant, I was really

1269
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:38,840
impressed with how disciplined
his his mind worked and he

1270
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:41,560
wasn't just looking to make the
best case for his side.

1271
01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:46,640
He was sort of ruthlessly
critical of arguments on both

1272
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:48,440
sides.
So that was an early one.

1273
01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:54,960
I think Freud got me into into
psychology.

1274
01:15:54,960 --> 01:16:00,120
He was reading some of probably
I'd been reading moral

1275
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:05,720
philosophy who who try to
understand what's right and

1276
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:07,840
wrong and very conceptual
analysis.

1277
01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:09,400
And then I read some of Freud's
stuff.

1278
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:12,320
He said, well, let's look at how
people actually get their

1279
01:16:12,320 --> 01:16:14,560
morals.
How did children learn what's

1280
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:17,000
right and wrong?
He also went to the

1281
01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:22,200
anthropological evidence of his
day, which was rather primitive

1282
01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:25,440
by today's standards.
But still look, how did the

1283
01:16:25,440 --> 01:16:31,960
earliest societies, what are the
forms of of morality that they

1284
01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:34,200
have first?
And so I thought, well, that

1285
01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:36,280
could be interesting.
You could tackle these

1286
01:16:36,280 --> 01:16:39,840
philosophical questions as as
scientific questions with social

1287
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:42,960
science data.
So that kind of inspired me.

1288
01:16:44,760 --> 01:16:53,440
In terms of more current authors
in psychology, David Buss, the

1289
01:16:53,440 --> 01:16:56,240
evolutionary psychologist,
really had a huge effect on me

1290
01:16:56,240 --> 01:16:59,760
because I was taught everything
is socialization and everything

1291
01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:04,400
is learned.
And so Buss was an early leader

1292
01:17:04,400 --> 01:17:07,320
in in pointing out a lot of
behaviors have evolutionary

1293
01:17:07,320 --> 01:17:11,240
bases, a pattern.
So he's had a huge effect on my

1294
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:14,240
thinking.
Some of my other favourites,

1295
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:21,400
Michael Tomasello and there are
a lot of writers who say, oh,

1296
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:24,440
humans are just like the apes.
You know, we're all, we're all

1297
01:17:24,440 --> 01:17:26,640
very similar.
And others say, oh, no, no,

1298
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:29,200
we're totally different.
And he's really disciplined to

1299
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:33,160
say, well, the apes do this the
same we do, but they don't do

1300
01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:36,960
that.
And so his books like Natural

1301
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:40,640
History of cognition, Natural
History of morality, Cultural

1302
01:17:40,640 --> 01:17:44,000
origins of human cognition,
those I've really found

1303
01:17:44,120 --> 01:17:48,560
brilliant and, and, and helpful
in terms of the bigger picture,

1304
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:53,080
social science, Francis
Fukuyama, I think is a

1305
01:17:53,200 --> 01:17:56,800
extraordinary genius and a, a
number of his books Origins of

1306
01:17:56,800 --> 01:18:00,080
political order.
I think is, is a is a huge

1307
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:04,400
influence on my thinking.
It's it's two volumes, but you

1308
01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:06,560
don't have to read them both,
but read the earlier one.

1309
01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:10,280
It goes from, you know, starts
from the Stone Age.

1310
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:15,480
He starts with the Hobbes was
the philosopher who said, you

1311
01:18:15,480 --> 01:18:19,280
know, the the state of nature is
the war of all against all, you

1312
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:22,840
know, And at some point people
agreed to make a social contract

1313
01:18:23,560 --> 01:18:25,480
to work together.
And Fukuyama said, no, that's

1314
01:18:25,480 --> 01:18:29,720
not the starting point.
We evolved from apes and so they

1315
01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:33,400
have a hierarchy.
And so how did we move from

1316
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:36,200
their hierarchical society to
the hunter gatherers who were

1317
01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:39,560
very egalitarian?
And then how did the hierarchy

1318
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:44,240
come back?
And really, again, careful

1319
01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:51,400
thinker, lots of information.
So another one that I find

1320
01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:53,800
inspiring.
Do you do you read fiction?

1321
01:18:53,840 --> 01:18:56,040
Fiction, Roy, Do you?
Do you enjoy fiction?

1322
01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:02,160
I do off and on.
I I'm reading some more more

1323
01:19:02,160 --> 01:19:03,640
recently.
For many years I didn't.

1324
01:19:03,640 --> 01:19:07,680
I only read non fiction.
The fiction wasn't true.

1325
01:19:07,680 --> 01:19:10,400
But you know, a beautifully
written novel, especially at

1326
01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:13,080
bedtime.
It's nice to take your mind off

1327
01:19:13,080 --> 01:19:17,240
things and read novels.
So I'm reading some of the

1328
01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:21,200
Bernard Cornwell, the ones I
like fiction that just gives me

1329
01:19:21,200 --> 01:19:24,680
a glimpse of a completely
different life of my own.

1330
01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:29,880
So these carnival ones are about
Great Britain before it was

1331
01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:36,120
Great Britain, you know, back in
the 900 and the, the Vikings are

1332
01:19:36,120 --> 01:19:40,160
taking over half the country and
the Saxons and the the different

1333
01:19:40,160 --> 01:19:43,480
tribes are having their
different countries and just

1334
01:19:44,680 --> 01:19:47,520
very well, very well resourced.
So it's a glimpse of what it

1335
01:19:47,680 --> 01:19:51,840
felt like to live back then.
I at least I assume.

1336
01:19:52,600 --> 01:19:55,600
Now, Roy, thank this has been
such a pleasurable conversation

1337
01:19:55,600 --> 01:19:57,840
and I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for joining

1338
01:19:57,840 --> 01:19:58,520
me.
Anything.

1339
01:19:58,520 --> 01:19:59,920
Any final words from your side,
Roy?

1340
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:03,120
No, I think that's good.
I've enjoyed the conversation

1341
01:20:03,120 --> 01:20:03,720
too.
Thank you.

1342
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:08,200
Thanks very much for including
me and I hope you get a good a

1343
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:10,560
good audience.
Yeah, I think they'll love it.

1344
01:20:10,560 --> 01:20:12,640
I think.
I think you've given so much for

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them to think about.
And obviously a great book

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coming soon as well.
And I'll put a link to that once

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it's out as well.
And I really am grateful for

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your time, Roy.
Thank you so much.

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Thanks for that, Terence.
Hold on.