Rebecca Goldstein: What's The Matter with Matter & Why Does It Matter? The Mind-Body Problem

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Rebecca, I want to ask you, you
have written a book, it's called

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The Mind Body Problem and this,
this was written many years ago

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and it is a novel and I know
it's not a philosophical

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argument.
It's nothing.

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It's not necessarily about the
mind Body problem in the sense

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that this podcast has been
dedicated to.

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But I still believe that you
have a lot of information that

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you can share with us with
regards to the mind body

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problem.
So my first question to you is

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how do you define this problem
and what is the mind body

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problem to you?
The philosophical one, of

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course.
Yes, so I ought to little

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preamble is that I did my PhD
dissertation.

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On my body problem, and it was
with my dissertation advisor,

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was Tom Nagle of what is like to
be a bat fan.

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And so when I came, much to my
surprise, not to, not to speak

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of the surprise of my
philosophical colleagues.

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To write a novel, the last thing
I ever expected to do.

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I kind of cheekily called it the
Mind body problem, having

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knowing full well, having been
completely immersed in the

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philosophical discussion of this
problem.

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But it wasn't just cheeky.
I I was up to something that I

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believed him.
Okay.

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So I I got my doctorate many
decades ago.

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I came in from physics.
I came in supported by National

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Science Foundation Fellowship
because, you know, the poor, the

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United States government fully
believed I was going to do

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philosophy of physics.
But I had become at a very early

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age.
Well, not at a very early age in

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college, obsessed with the
problem of how does matter do

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it.
I was complete, completely

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convinced that we are matter.
And that seemed to me

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unquestioning about I had a
certain experience.

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It was actually on the New York
subway.

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That that it it it the problem
what came years later to be

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called the hard problem of
consciousness just came crashing

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and how does matter accomplish
this thing How does it wake up

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to the world.
How is it they were this

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intervene It was it was just
really was a funny sort of

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situation on a New York subway
that caused and.

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You know, and I didn't at the
time, You know, I started

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reading what philosophers had to
say about it and nobody was

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taking consciousness seriously.
I mean, it was a hokey term in

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those days, right?
It really was.

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And and then you know I when I
got to Graduate School and and

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it went to to Princeton and.
I tended to do philosophical

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implications of special
relativity.

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Time was also also a huge
problem, and it is a problem of

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consciousness to the
consciousness of time, which so

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constitutes our inner life.
But how do you get it out of

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physics?
But there was there was nobody I

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wanted to work with on that
problem.

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But here was Tom Nagle, and he
had, you know, people were kind

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of making fun of him for having
published what is it like to be

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a bat?
And then I read it.

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It was like, oh, yes, perfectly
stated.

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This is it.
So I worked with him.

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Yeah.
So what is?

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Well, maybe in that long, you
know, slightly autobiographical

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vignette, there's a little bit
of, you know, what I take.

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The problem to be, which is,
yeah, we are, we are composed of

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matter, I have no doubt of that.
But how do we do this?

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You know, there's such a huge
gap between a physical

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description and the subjective
description that I am extremely

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interested in as a novelist.
So when I called it the mind

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body problem, that was part of
it.

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You know that there is a way
that one can get at all of these

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properties of us, of our brains.
Not through scientific language,

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but through, you know this inner
kind of description which we try

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to extend to other people and
all quite awkwardly and and

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incompletely.
But you know this to me is this

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get the gap between the
objective and the subjective.

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You know this is this is the my
body problem and I came to the

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conclusion that the real.
Unknown is matter.

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Matter is what we don't know we
know with it.

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You know it's such a second hand
and I could go and you know

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great lengths about that.
But that more or less is was my

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entree into the mind body
problem.

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When you think about the history
of it all and you think about

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Descartes when he when he sat
down and he sort of looked

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around and realized that all
that he has his mind, what comes

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to your mind?
I mean, I mean Thomas Nickel

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obviously is very influential.
We all read his paper.

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We've all read his paper.
What is it like to be a bet?

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How do you define that
experience?

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The What is it like?
The qualitative phenomenal

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experience?
Let's say certain people like

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Daniel Dennett who consider that
to be an illusion, or certain

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people like maybe Philip of
considered consciously.

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Excuse the kick off, but yes, so
there's so many people who have

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different and differing views on
this.

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Do you think you have a monist
view that this is all

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fundamentally matter and yet we
still don't understand matter

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or?
We don't understand.

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Yeah, Matter is.
Well, you mentioned a card, so

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why don't I start with that?
It's not an accident.

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That the problem is the modern
problem emerged in the 17th

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century because that's when
modern physics emerged right.

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You know Galileo who's a
contemporary of of of FDA card,

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but you know pre Sir Isaac
Newton and so you know this we

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we start getting.
A handle a matter.

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Our notion of matter completely
changes.

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Why?
Because alaleo married.

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Empirical observation to
mathematical description.

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We are so used to this, we take
it for granted.

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What an extraordinary leap.
This was, you know, we had

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Aristotle, you know, with his
teleological explanations, which

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was a very natural first attempt
at explaining the nature of

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reality.
Because that's how we explain

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ourselves, right?
That we have aims, we have

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goals, we're trying to get to
it.

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Why not assume that the same you
know the same matrix of

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explanation characterizes?
All of explanation.

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So, you know, matter is trying
to get to its rightful place.

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There are four different types
of matter and, you know, four

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different kinds of souls.
And so you've used that notion

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and, you know, and we've got,
you know, a very long time from

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the ancient Aristotle to
Galileo, thinking not very much

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progress, and then this amazing
thing, we can isolate certain

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aspects of experience.
And give them mathematical

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expression, most importantly the
notion of motion.

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Change of position over change
of time, Right.

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Delta T over delta T.
What a leap.

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This one's right.
And we find, you know, in

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Galvani, we find them the
distinction between the real

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properties of matter, primary
properties meaning real.

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And the secondary ones that we
dump into the mind, you know,

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those just are caused by the
interaction between the real

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properties of matter and the
mind and what are the real

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properties, the mathematically
expressible ones.

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And we've gotten incredibly far.
I'm talking into this, you're

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where are you in Australia?
Yes.

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And here I am, tip of US and
Cape Cod we're talking because

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of this incredible progress
we've made of.

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Of finding the laws that can be
mathematically expressed and

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what do they describe Matter in
motion that's what that is what

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we're describing the behavior of
of matter.

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Matter in motion gone incredibly
far.

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But what's the matter, right?
You know So this is.

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Wait now I completely lost your.
I forgot the original question,

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but So what was the question?
I mean, we were trying to figure

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out what consciousness is.
I mean this podcast is called

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the Mind Body Solution.
So that like, how do we figure

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this out?
What is?

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Consciousness, yes.
Consciousness is that which

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can't be expressed in purely
mathematical language.

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I mean, that's a.
It is the.

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What is it like to Venus, as
Nagle had put it.

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It's the feeling.
It's the memories.

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It's the.
It's the stuff of our inner

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lives.
It's what is it like to be a a

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thing of there are certain
things for which there are these

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facts.
We certainly all the most

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interesting facts about us or of
this type, and it's very, very

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hard to grasp in other people,
much less members of other

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species.
It's that it's that stuff of

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experience, right?
That is the thing that we that

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Descartes said we know most
intimately.

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When you think about the
greatest philosophers that have

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come and gone talking about
philosophy of mind, who do you

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think have provided us with the
most insight when it comes to

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the mind and understanding it
for today?

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Amid this neuroscientific
revolution, I mean, we're

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obviously looking at the brain
as a fundamental core to the

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mind at this point.
There's this geistic view of the

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mind, and the body being
separate slowly seems to be

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changing.
And now we're having new

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theories coming in that just
seem to be bringing up

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consciousness as fundamental.
You've got other theories where

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people are saying there's
something like quantum

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consciousness.
Do you think all of these have a

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lot of validity?
And do you think it's reasonable

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to draw these conclusions based
on what neuroscience has proven

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thus far?
I mean, I think neuroscience

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makes it more and more probable
that we are nothing but her

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brains.
I mean it it it doesn't entail

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that conclusion.
I mean, it's even dualism.

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It's still an, you know, it's
open, there's a science and then

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there's philosophy, right?
How you interpret and the

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science has not yet entailed the
philosophical.

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Conclusion.
I think almost all of them

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except for illusionism are
compatible with all of the you

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know, the evidence that we have.
There could be a 1 to 1

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correspondence between you know,
the organization and the brain

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and the quality of experience.
You know very, but it becomes

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you know less and less likely.
Theory of natural selection

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makes it ever so much.
Unlikely.

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I think it's really pretty
probable.

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But the the finer grades that we
get down to in neuroscience, to

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me, does it make it any more
probable, you know, but it's

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it's it's interesting.
The complexity of the brain is

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infinitely interesting, but it
it doesn't, I don't think it

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makes the conclusion that we
are.

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Right.
You know, nothing but matter.

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But that matter is inherently
mysterious.

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Where to me, it's quite amazing
that we have managed to know as

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much as we have, you know, And
it's really thanks to to the

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17th century this, this, this
attempt is to say this, this

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great leap, metaphysical leap of
saying that you know.

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Math can get us to to do
something, but it can't get us

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to everything.
Why should math be able to get

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us to everything?
Yeah.

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And I know that the 17th century
is not here.

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I mean, when you think about
Descartes, Spinoza, a lot of the

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think is that you really admire
and appreciate.

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What do you think he would say
to a question like, what is

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consciousness?
Oh, how do we solve them?

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Dick.
Dick Spinoza, Let's go with

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Spinoza.
Doesn't have, yeah.

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I'm a great admirer of Spinoza.
But it doesn't have as robust A

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notion of consciousness as does.
Descartes was just surprising,

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You know, I mean, he, I I think
that he is all about trying to

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dissolve the dualities of every
sort.

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He is.
He is a Master Monister and the

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ultimate Monist.
And so you know the distinction

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between God and nature, no.
You know that's dissolved.

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The distinction between the
between knowing and feeling is

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dissolved, right?
Between yes, between the

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emotions and and knowledge is
dissolved.

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All you know it's always it's
really tries to blow up duality

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and it sometimes you know the
duality between mind.

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Matter as a result that there is
a sort of you know, perhaps I'm

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reading into this, but it as I
say, you know, and he doesn't

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concentrate on consciousness in
the way that the Descartes

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really does in the second year.
It's really the first time when

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somebody is really concentrating
on the what is it like to be

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miss, you know?
And all of the different

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modalities that this, you know
we uses the word thinking oh,

229
00:15:20,070 --> 00:15:25,590
just a slight deviation.
Consciousness meant something

230
00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:28,950
entirely different in the 17th
century.

231
00:15:28,950 --> 00:15:31,670
It meant thinking together, men
thinking together.

232
00:15:31,670 --> 00:15:34,670
By which I think they meant to
include women as well perhaps.

233
00:15:35,070 --> 00:15:41,830
And you know it was luck I
believe.

234
00:15:41,870 --> 00:15:42,950
Who, Who?
Who?

235
00:15:43,860 --> 00:15:47,500
Usurped the word consciousness
and used it to cover all of

236
00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:52,300
those things that Descartes had
enumerated with the with the

237
00:15:52,340 --> 00:15:57,140
verb of to think and say or
cogitare cogitare.

238
00:15:58,260 --> 00:16:02,700
So what would he have said?
I don't know.

239
00:16:02,700 --> 00:16:10,540
I think what was Spinoza?
I think Spinoza would keep his.

240
00:16:11,450 --> 00:16:17,450
View, which is that there is an
ultimate reality which we don't

241
00:16:17,450 --> 00:16:20,530
know.
You know it, we know it

242
00:16:20,530 --> 00:16:24,690
incomplete incompletely, we
can't possibly know it.

243
00:16:24,690 --> 00:16:27,530
We would need to have infinite
minds to be able to know it

244
00:16:27,530 --> 00:16:30,850
completely.
So you know Spinos has his own

245
00:16:30,850 --> 00:16:35,970
incompleteness theorem and but
where we need to know it.

246
00:16:36,090 --> 00:16:39,290
I would absorb all of these
polarities.

247
00:16:40,690 --> 00:16:43,530
Would contain all explanations.
We don't.

248
00:16:43,650 --> 00:16:47,610
Being finite, we don't have the
capacity, we don't have the

249
00:16:47,610 --> 00:16:50,570
concepts for it.
We have the concepts of thinking

250
00:16:50,890 --> 00:16:56,730
and we have the concepts of, you
know, the going to physicality

251
00:16:57,890 --> 00:17:01,930
and they don't see one can't
seem to include the other, but

252
00:17:01,930 --> 00:17:06,680
that's because.
These are just two modalities of

253
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,800
trying to think this infinite
one substance for which we are

254
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:15,720
inadequate.
Yeah, I I, I, I think that's

255
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:21,480
true, which you say when you
think about mind versus matter

256
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,440
or mind or matter, are you a
monist in that sense that you

257
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,320
firmly believe that this is all
a matter or mind or do you have

258
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,800
some sort of a preservation or
reservation regarding this

259
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:39,270
distinction?
I'm not sure I understand the

260
00:17:39,590 --> 00:17:43,790
question because as we've seen
over time, certain scientists,

261
00:17:43,790 --> 00:17:47,510
let's say for example, someone
like Donald Hoffman who is a

262
00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:50,390
physicist.
He works with evolutionary

263
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:52,950
biology.
He's firmly within the

264
00:17:53,630 --> 00:17:57,930
neuroscience and physical
fields, and yet after he does

265
00:17:57,930 --> 00:18:00,770
his calculations, he does all he
runs the mathematics.

266
00:18:01,130 --> 00:18:04,050
He draws this conclusion that we
don't see reality for what it is

267
00:18:04,450 --> 00:18:07,610
at A at a 0% like probability
rate.

268
00:18:07,610 --> 00:18:10,410
So he even remembers.
He says he sat down the day he

269
00:18:10,410 --> 00:18:13,570
did the calculation and he says
this will never figure it out.

270
00:18:14,010 --> 00:18:17,410
But then he goes on further to
make the theory that perhaps

271
00:18:17,410 --> 00:18:19,570
it's because consciousness is
fundamental.

272
00:18:19,730 --> 00:18:22,690
And that's where the leap takes
place, where someone jumps from

273
00:18:22,690 --> 00:18:26,660
one different conclusion and
then has to make a new do you

274
00:18:26,660 --> 00:18:30,780
think that is a probable outcome
or do you think that firmly this

275
00:18:30,780 --> 00:18:34,860
this creations mind is within
the material world and it is

276
00:18:34,860 --> 00:18:41,940
matter that makes mind?
You know, for whatever we mean

277
00:18:41,980 --> 00:18:50,940
by matter, the stuff out there,
the stuff about which we have a

278
00:18:50,940 --> 00:18:57,160
very incomplete grasp.
Yes, I am a materialist, right.

279
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:05,120
I don't think the consciousness
is the ultimate, you know, we're

280
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:10,080
able to access.
One, some properties of the

281
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,840
matter that we are through
introspection, who are knowing

282
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,920
what it's like to be us, but
there's way more to our minds

283
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,360
than what's consciously
accessible.

284
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,800
I don't mean to be a Freudian
here, although, you know, we

285
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,440
don't move this out or any of
that stuff, but but even

286
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:34,880
language, you know, I mean that
I'm putting my thoughts in into

287
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,290
language.
I'm not thinking of all the

288
00:19:38,290 --> 00:19:43,290
rules that have to go into, you
know, syntax and vocabulary

289
00:19:43,290 --> 00:19:47,890
towards all of this.
It comes, it's all unconscious,

290
00:19:47,930 --> 00:19:49,530
right?
It's, it's, it's, you know, if I

291
00:19:49,530 --> 00:19:53,890
had to consciously think out all
of the rules, I would be even

292
00:19:53,890 --> 00:19:58,610
more inarticulate than I am.
So you know.

293
00:19:59,660 --> 00:20:04,100
I don't have any access to to
what my mind is all that my mind

294
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:09,820
is doing.
I it's a film it's it's a it's

295
00:20:09,940 --> 00:20:17,500
the gauzy foam that's that's
thrown up you know I I but so I

296
00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:22,140
don't you know I don't think
consciousness so the thing that

297
00:20:22,140 --> 00:20:25,720
we can access.
I think it's extremely important

298
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:30,800
obviously, but and it certainly
is extremely important in in

299
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,040
giving us insight into the mind
body problem because we know

300
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,080
that there are things that
matter could do that we can't

301
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,240
explain.
This thing that we know it can

302
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,880
do because we do it.
We are in it.

303
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,080
We know what it's like
consciousness in a way that we

304
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,280
don't know what matters like.
So it's extremely important, but

305
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:51,680
I don't think it gives us the
ultimate.

306
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,610
So I'm not a you know, pan
psychists in that way that I

307
00:20:55,610 --> 00:20:59,170
think that we've got a whole of
what this ultimate thing is.

308
00:21:00,010 --> 00:21:03,010
I don't know if that's an answer
to the question you were.

309
00:21:04,180 --> 00:21:06,100
Asking us Well, let's go, Let's
move back a little.

310
00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:08,220
I mean, you giggled when I
mentioned in it and then you

311
00:21:08,220 --> 00:21:12,540
obviously said Illusionism is
not something you you believe

312
00:21:12,540 --> 00:21:14,820
in.
But let's touch on why.

313
00:21:14,820 --> 00:21:17,260
Because if you think about some
of the arguments that they

314
00:21:17,260 --> 00:21:20,380
present, they follow a very
similar path.

315
00:21:20,380 --> 00:21:24,060
They talk about the fact that we
don't introspect on everything

316
00:21:24,060 --> 00:21:25,700
we experience.
There's a lot of flaws.

317
00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:28,580
We to use heuristics.
We have all these limited

318
00:21:28,580 --> 00:21:32,340
biological adaptations to the
universe, and to our environment

319
00:21:32,340 --> 00:21:35,180
in particular.
So perhaps everything we do

320
00:21:35,180 --> 00:21:39,500
experience does not take place
the way we think it does.

321
00:21:39,740 --> 00:21:42,140
I mean, there must be some sort
of a temporality issue because

322
00:21:42,140 --> 00:21:44,740
obviously light takes certain
time to reach our retina and

323
00:21:44,740 --> 00:21:49,180
then we have to convert that and
then sort of experience like to

324
00:21:49,180 --> 00:21:52,580
see red for example.
Why do you think that

325
00:21:52,620 --> 00:21:55,140
illusionism is such a flawed
theory?

326
00:21:56,650 --> 00:21:58,770
So Descartes said it.
He said perfectly.

327
00:21:58,770 --> 00:22:03,050
In the second Meditation,
perhaps the demon is is is you

328
00:22:03,050 --> 00:22:05,850
know the it's a possibility.
I can't rule it out.

329
00:22:05,850 --> 00:22:09,010
Perhaps he's a deceiving me
about everything but that it

330
00:22:09,010 --> 00:22:12,810
seems to me that these things to
be true, that I can't deny.

331
00:22:13,250 --> 00:22:15,490
That is what I mean by
consciousness.

332
00:22:15,850 --> 00:22:21,690
That's all you know and and it's
so even if it's an illusion,

333
00:22:21,690 --> 00:22:27,080
it's a it's a seeming to be and
if since those phenomenal

334
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:34,240
logical descriptions are limited
to first person present tense,

335
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,720
seeming, if you limit those you
know.

336
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,240
But where I I draw the line is I
don't think that that's all that

337
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,120
there is to the mind.
There's so much more.

338
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,920
And I don't think that
consciousness and introspection

339
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:59,650
gives us absolute or rigorous or
reliable information about our

340
00:22:59,650 --> 00:23:01,770
own minds.
You know, I'm completely, I'm a

341
00:23:01,890 --> 00:23:04,170
complete mystery to myself.
You know, I do things.

342
00:23:04,210 --> 00:23:07,170
I don't know why I do them.
I all these things.

343
00:23:07,170 --> 00:23:10,490
You know, perhaps a
psychoanalyst could help me.

344
00:23:10,490 --> 00:23:11,690
Perhaps not.
I don't know.

345
00:23:11,690 --> 00:23:13,810
But I don't think I have
complete access.

346
00:23:14,050 --> 00:23:16,810
But to my consciousness, no,
even that.

347
00:23:17,250 --> 00:23:19,930
No, even that.
I can interrogate and you know,

348
00:23:19,930 --> 00:23:23,350
it's infinitely rich.
You know, this is something that

349
00:23:23,350 --> 00:23:26,550
literature tells us.
You know, it's poetry tells us.

350
00:23:26,550 --> 00:23:31,950
You know, a poet can explain to
me things about my own mind that

351
00:23:31,950 --> 00:23:35,870
I hadn't noticed.
So yeah, I don't think we have

352
00:23:35,990 --> 00:23:40,790
this perspicacious, absolute
knowledge about our own minds

353
00:23:40,790 --> 00:23:43,190
either.
So.

354
00:23:44,210 --> 00:23:46,370
When you think about cuz I know
certain people like Keith

355
00:23:46,370 --> 00:23:49,130
Frankish, when he followed
Dennis Work and he sort of added

356
00:23:49,130 --> 00:23:52,410
to it, what they tried to say
was eventually that there is no

357
00:23:52,450 --> 00:23:55,130
essence.
I mean, it's as if we're trying

358
00:23:55,130 --> 00:23:58,690
to make this Ian vittal
consciousness, this new sort of

359
00:24:00,010 --> 00:24:03,050
substance that separates us from
every other species.

360
00:24:04,770 --> 00:24:06,450
Do you feel, do you agree with
that?

361
00:24:07,010 --> 00:24:09,370
Oh gosh, no.
I mean, you know, animals have

362
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,800
and of eyes that constantly.
Oh, if I had my life to move

363
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,240
over again, I would, I would be
perhaps an animal behaviorist.

364
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,280
I've spent a lot of time in
Africa watching the elephants.

365
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,960
Yeah.
Oh my God, what a rich life they

366
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,120
have.
Uganda, right?

367
00:24:24,430 --> 00:24:27,390
You were in Uganda at the time.
In Uganda, yes, yes, yes.

368
00:24:27,430 --> 00:24:33,830
And and then we back again to
Tanzania and and South Africa.

369
00:24:34,070 --> 00:24:36,550
So I love Africa and I love
animals.

370
00:24:37,670 --> 00:24:43,310
So I I so, Oh gosh, no, no.
I mean no doubt at all that

371
00:24:43,310 --> 00:24:46,990
there was, there was something
that you see such behavior, such

372
00:24:46,990 --> 00:24:52,750
complicated psychological
behavior and of course, I mean

373
00:24:52,750 --> 00:24:54,510
we're all part of the tree of
life.

374
00:24:54,510 --> 00:24:59,790
I mean we evolved.
And out of these, you know I

375
00:24:59,790 --> 00:25:06,030
spent some time with there was a
friend of ours Richard Rangham

376
00:25:06,030 --> 00:25:10,910
who just he's a anthropologist
and evolutionary anthropologist

377
00:25:10,910 --> 00:25:16,430
and he's been following the same
troop of of chimpanzees in

378
00:25:16,430 --> 00:25:19,170
Uganda.
For our whole.

379
00:25:19,170 --> 00:25:25,170
We've passed the 80 million year
I mean for 40 years by now and

380
00:25:25,250 --> 00:25:29,290
we were privileged enough to go
along with him and and he is so

381
00:25:29,290 --> 00:25:33,690
acclimated then he was a student
of Jane Goodall's So so

382
00:25:33,690 --> 00:25:39,330
acclimated them that you know I
up very up close and Oh my we we

383
00:25:39,330 --> 00:25:44,010
couldn't the the male chimps
were always off running or you

384
00:25:44,010 --> 00:25:48,780
know getting the best food and
the female chimps you know were

385
00:25:48,780 --> 00:25:51,300
carrying their babies and I
would get their last.

386
00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:57,220
And I came back from that first
trip thinking I finally

387
00:25:57,260 --> 00:25:59,220
understand my species a little
better.

388
00:26:00,300 --> 00:26:04,300
I don't understand.
Can I tell you, oh God this is

389
00:26:04,300 --> 00:26:10,060
very So I I the first thing I
did when I came back was I went

390
00:26:10,060 --> 00:26:13,780
to the consciousness conference
that that David Chalmers was

391
00:26:13,780 --> 00:26:19,780
running in Arizona and and I was
on a panel I didn't know.

392
00:26:19,780 --> 00:26:22,420
I thought I'd just give my talk
and then I'm done.

393
00:26:23,180 --> 00:26:29,780
But no there's the panel and I'm
sitting between 2A males let's

394
00:26:29,780 --> 00:26:34,450
say and and they just agreed
very much with each other and I

395
00:26:34,450 --> 00:26:38,370
was in between and they're just
sort of like talking over me and

396
00:26:38,530 --> 00:26:45,690
shaking their this city each
other and and and people said I

397
00:26:45,690 --> 00:26:49,290
just sort of sat there with this
sort of smile on my face and and

398
00:26:49,290 --> 00:26:53,570
what I was thinking was I just
saw this in Uganda with

399
00:26:53,570 --> 00:26:55,890
Richard's.
But Uganda all over again?

400
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,920
Exactly.
And it was, yeah, it completely

401
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,520
changed my view.
It's made me much more patient

402
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,240
with my skis.
It's like, well, we can't help.

403
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,280
But this is where we come from.
Yeah, I mean, yes.

404
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,720
That's very, that's a
fascinating thought because, I

405
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,080
mean, when we look at
chimpanzees, I mean even bonobos

406
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,880
in in Congo, the way they
behave, it's so human.

407
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,000
When you watch a Bonobo, it's a
myth.

408
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,740
Have you seen them?
Have you?

409
00:27:23,740 --> 00:27:24,220
You.
Actually I'm.

410
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:27,620
In South Africa, and I know a
lot of the chimpanzees that that

411
00:27:27,620 --> 00:27:31,140
I see and you watch them,
they're very human, like the

412
00:27:31,940 --> 00:27:34,900
expressions on their face.
Yeah, they express their kids,

413
00:27:35,380 --> 00:27:38,780
they, they hug.
It's amazing to watch because

414
00:27:38,780 --> 00:27:41,980
you you can actually see that
this is our cousin.

415
00:27:42,220 --> 00:27:44,660
This is legitimately an
ancestral.

416
00:27:45,260 --> 00:27:48,180
We came down some sort of a
similar part and you can see at

417
00:27:48,380 --> 00:27:51,420
some point you've diverged.
So it's so difficult for someone

418
00:27:51,420 --> 00:27:52,940
to actually say that humans
have.

419
00:27:53,460 --> 00:27:57,220
This sort of Indian vital
essence consciousness that they

420
00:27:57,220 --> 00:27:59,260
don't have.
No, of course they do.

421
00:27:59,660 --> 00:28:02,260
My God, you know, that's what
makes.

422
00:28:02,860 --> 00:28:14,950
But between them, you know, and
this, you know, I can do any

423
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:18,110
damn thing I want with this.
There's nothing that it's like

424
00:28:18,110 --> 00:28:19,790
to be.
There's a lot of information

425
00:28:19,790 --> 00:28:24,070
contained in those pages, right?
So there's information there,

426
00:28:24,070 --> 00:28:28,030
but there is not the what is it
like to be next?

427
00:28:28,590 --> 00:28:32,470
And if there is, then we're all
guilty of terrible exploitation

428
00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:35,870
of various objects.
In our world, Michael mentioned

429
00:28:35,870 --> 00:28:38,510
the What is it like?
I mean, I mean, I'm a big fan of

430
00:28:38,510 --> 00:28:41,350
Nagle and one of my in my
dissertation, one of my topics I

431
00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:44,140
discussed was moral luck.
And I want to bring that at some

432
00:28:44,140 --> 00:28:48,900
point with you because of course
mattering and the moral

433
00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:50,860
philosophy is a big part of your
work at this point.

434
00:28:51,100 --> 00:28:54,820
But before we get there, when
Nagle spoke about this, what is

435
00:28:54,820 --> 00:28:56,380
it like feeling?
I mean, it's obviously

436
00:28:56,380 --> 00:29:00,660
subjective, it's qualitative and
it's first person phenomenon and

437
00:29:00,780 --> 00:29:04,210
so neuroscience and.
And I'm a doctor.

438
00:29:04,210 --> 00:29:06,610
And when we look at
neuroscientific work, when we

439
00:29:06,610 --> 00:29:10,170
look at psychiatry, neurology,
we're obviously looking at neuro

440
00:29:10,170 --> 00:29:12,930
correlates of consciousness or
experiences.

441
00:29:13,490 --> 00:29:17,090
Do you think this is a problem
because technically we're never

442
00:29:17,090 --> 00:29:20,170
going to be able to subjectively
experience any of these things.

443
00:29:20,450 --> 00:29:24,090
So when we objectify these, do
you think we might cause more

444
00:29:24,090 --> 00:29:27,290
harm at some point though?
I mean it's information.

445
00:29:27,330 --> 00:29:31,090
It's incredibly interesting
right, that there are these fine

446
00:29:31,090 --> 00:29:36,200
grade correlations.
You know, it makes it more and

447
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,720
more undeniable or more and more
probable you know that you're

448
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,120
nothing but our brain as if we
needed more of that.

449
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,680
But we.
Yes, OK And you know and it's

450
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,000
fascinating and and and I
suppose also we can get us to

451
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,200
certain cures hopefully.
Right.

452
00:29:53,640 --> 00:30:03,070
But, but if, if one thinks, I
mean conceivably it could get

453
00:30:03,070 --> 00:30:08,310
us, you know, we could close the
gap between the objective and

454
00:30:08,310 --> 00:30:10,870
the subjective.
I mean it's it's I think the

455
00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:14,630
subjective is objectively true.
It's objectively true that I,

456
00:30:15,230 --> 00:30:20,390
you know, I have a little itch
on this cheek because my hair

457
00:30:20,390 --> 00:30:23,070
keeps brushing it.
This is objectively true.

458
00:30:24,610 --> 00:30:28,810
You could have inferred it by my
keep swiping it away, but you

459
00:30:28,810 --> 00:30:32,050
don't know quite the quality,
the qualities of this anyway.

460
00:30:32,690 --> 00:30:36,250
But that's that's an objective
fact about me, that I am a

461
00:30:36,250 --> 00:30:40,970
subject of experience and
therefore subject to to, to, to

462
00:30:41,090 --> 00:30:46,490
to this level of description.
Maybe someday you know I'll I'll

463
00:30:46,490 --> 00:30:49,930
go into a brain machine and FM
RI very.

464
00:30:50,170 --> 00:30:54,910
You know and and and you know
when the neuroscientist will,

465
00:30:55,350 --> 00:31:00,870
you know, look at me, aha, she
claims to believe this, but she

466
00:31:00,870 --> 00:31:04,470
really believes the opposite.
You know, when this is all

467
00:31:04,470 --> 00:31:06,190
opposed, she's a phony, you
know.

468
00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:08,590
And then he'll be able to read
that out.

469
00:31:09,790 --> 00:31:14,110
Perhaps aspects of my mind, you
know, that I am not even aware

470
00:31:14,110 --> 00:31:17,230
of.
And then yes, they will have

471
00:31:17,230 --> 00:31:19,470
done it.
But we are so far from that, as

472
00:31:19,470 --> 00:31:23,280
you say, we just got this, these
correlates we're mapping, it's a

473
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:31,240
kind of mapping, it's matter,
emotion, science can do and we

474
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,800
get very far with it.
Do you think once we are able to

475
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,320
do that?
Because of course, once we're

476
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,920
able to figure out exactly how
someone thinks, how the brain

477
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,960
works, how creates this
experience, we're obviously

478
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,760
going to then reach a point
where we can do this

479
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:51,810
artificially and create this.
I mean, we may be able to do it

480
00:31:52,610 --> 00:31:56,450
without knowing how it's.
Not even trying, and we might be

481
00:31:56,450 --> 00:31:58,290
able to.
This might have been ready for.

482
00:31:58,290 --> 00:32:02,650
I mean, if in fact this is only
matter working according to the

483
00:32:02,650 --> 00:32:07,730
laws by which matter works about
which we know a few.

484
00:32:08,010 --> 00:32:13,750
But you know, yeah, we may
create a machine that there's

485
00:32:13,750 --> 00:32:16,670
nothing special about this wet
stuff.

486
00:32:17,230 --> 00:32:23,590
It can be something siliconic
and chips indeed.

487
00:32:23,590 --> 00:32:27,390
Yeah, it can be complicated
enough so that yes, and then we

488
00:32:27,390 --> 00:32:30,950
will have an ethical problem.
Yes, raise so many ethical

489
00:32:30,950 --> 00:32:33,150
dilemmas, do you think?
I often think about this

490
00:32:33,150 --> 00:32:36,330
because.
Do you think this could be

491
00:32:36,330 --> 00:32:39,250
technologically the way moving
forward like maybe we were

492
00:32:39,730 --> 00:32:44,130
somehow I don't think obviously
humans were created to be the

493
00:32:44,450 --> 00:32:47,130
the be all end all of species.
But do you think perhaps this

494
00:32:47,130 --> 00:32:50,690
type of consciousness was
destined to make that type of

495
00:32:50,690 --> 00:32:53,450
consciousness so that it could
go further without us?

496
00:32:53,450 --> 00:33:00,790
Well, perhaps, perhaps.
I mean if I'm.

497
00:33:01,270 --> 00:33:03,710
It might survive a lot more
harsh territories.

498
00:33:04,030 --> 00:33:06,630
I mean, it's.
Yeah, it could go, yeah.

499
00:33:06,950 --> 00:33:09,510
I don't think.
I don't think we're destined to

500
00:33:10,270 --> 00:33:11,310
do it.
I don't think.

501
00:33:11,310 --> 00:33:13,790
I don't believe in that.
We're destined for anything.

502
00:33:13,790 --> 00:33:16,190
I don't believe.
In The Meaning of Life.

503
00:33:16,270 --> 00:33:19,590
I know you don't like that word.
The meaning of life or what are

504
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:22,990
we destined to do?
Yeah, I think it's, you know,

505
00:33:22,990 --> 00:33:30,000
part of our our hubris.
But, but I think there's

506
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:36,640
something truly fantastic about
the fact that we are matter who

507
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,680
are discovering the laws of
matter.

508
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,960
That because we're here or some
of the laws of matter, right,

509
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:49,680
because we're here.
You know, we're not here because

510
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,840
God created us or chose us and
he had a purpose or anything

511
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,960
teleological or.
But it happened.

512
00:33:58,930 --> 00:34:05,330
It happened and and and what
this means is that because we're

513
00:34:05,330 --> 00:34:09,090
here for as long as we're here,
and I hope it's for a while, but

514
00:34:10,050 --> 00:34:14,969
who knows that I mean not as.
Optimistic as you are our

515
00:34:14,969 --> 00:34:18,090
species, no, I'm not terribly
optimistic either and I get, I

516
00:34:18,090 --> 00:34:21,010
get less by the day.
Frankly, yes.

517
00:34:21,449 --> 00:34:26,830
But you know that that the
universe is waking up to itself.

518
00:34:26,830 --> 00:34:28,870
It's the universe to know
itself.

519
00:34:28,870 --> 00:34:31,670
That's sort of fantastic, you
know?

520
00:34:31,670 --> 00:34:35,550
And so there's something we're
doing that actually matters.

521
00:34:35,550 --> 00:34:37,070
We're doing something for the
universe.

522
00:34:37,070 --> 00:34:41,429
We're giving itself knowledge.
That's kind of amazing.

523
00:34:41,630 --> 00:34:45,030
It is that sort of that.
It's not spiritual, but that

524
00:34:45,030 --> 00:34:48,429
sort of the thought of knowing
we are the sensory organs of

525
00:34:48,429 --> 00:34:50,750
this universe.
In a sense, we are taking in

526
00:34:50,750 --> 00:34:53,739
information we are.
Were able to explain phenomena

527
00:34:53,739 --> 00:34:58,220
that that we are part of and we
are fundamentally we grew out of

528
00:34:58,220 --> 00:35:00,140
it.
I mean often in my I remember my

529
00:35:00,140 --> 00:35:01,540
dissertation with my
consciousness.

530
00:35:01,540 --> 00:35:05,700
I said we are a conscious
conglomerate of cells organized

531
00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:09,620
by organelles designed by DNA,
manufactured by molecules

532
00:35:09,620 --> 00:35:13,540
assembled by forged by fusion
via Stella supernova.

533
00:35:13,540 --> 00:35:15,780
It's an amazing story when you
think.

534
00:35:17,330 --> 00:35:20,650
That this is how we got you.
I mean, it's far better than any

535
00:35:20,650 --> 00:35:24,490
sort of a religious text or book
that someone's written.

536
00:35:24,610 --> 00:35:26,690
It's an amazing story in its own
right.

537
00:35:28,170 --> 00:35:32,530
I couldn't agree with you more.
It is, in the old sense of the

538
00:35:32,530 --> 00:35:35,500
word, awesome.
It's just surely.

539
00:35:35,980 --> 00:35:38,500
Exactly.
It's just awe inspiring.

540
00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:41,820
It's it's it's it's such an
amazing story.

541
00:35:41,820 --> 00:35:44,860
And yet we don't.
Do you think that we as

542
00:35:44,860 --> 00:35:48,140
scientists or philosophers just
struggle to tell the story as

543
00:35:48,140 --> 00:35:52,540
beautiful as it is, or that
people are just listening to it

544
00:35:52,540 --> 00:35:55,300
in a way that's not the same way
that we see it?

545
00:35:56,980 --> 00:36:00,780
That's such a good question.
And, you know, it is, you know,

546
00:36:01,500 --> 00:36:06,110
perhaps a little of both.
I mean, it doesn't give the

547
00:36:06,590 --> 00:36:12,790
solace comfort that the
religious story does, you know,

548
00:36:12,790 --> 00:36:16,750
that, you know, and I mean we're
animals.

549
00:36:18,150 --> 00:36:21,030
We're animals who know we're
going to die that we are.

550
00:36:21,030 --> 00:36:24,630
You know we have the animal
terror of death.

551
00:36:25,620 --> 00:36:27,700
And here is this.
You know there's a story that

552
00:36:27,700 --> 00:36:33,140
can that can calm us down.
And I always wondered, you know,

553
00:36:33,140 --> 00:36:36,860
I was brought up very religious
and I always wondered, you know

554
00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:38,900
why?
Well, people just kill

555
00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:40,420
themselves.
Heaven sounds so marvelous.

556
00:36:40,420 --> 00:36:42,820
Why are we all just committing
suicide right.

557
00:36:43,140 --> 00:36:44,420
Sounds so much better than this
life.

558
00:36:44,740 --> 00:36:52,200
But but anyway you know so so
it's not it's A and it's not a

559
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,000
story that favors any one of us.
Oh you know we're being seen.

560
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,480
But we're we are being seen by
the universe.

561
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:03,480
We are here for something.
If we exist then then so it

562
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,920
doesn't get us on the emotional
level.

563
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,720
You have to be you have to get
this sort of out of yourself.

564
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:17,440
Grand objective, awesome,
spinosistic view to have your

565
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:25,530
heart race about this.
I don't need to disparage my

566
00:37:25,530 --> 00:37:29,810
species, and I think maybe we
ought to tell the story better.

567
00:37:30,690 --> 00:37:32,530
So yes.
I think so, yeah.

568
00:37:32,530 --> 00:37:34,330
I agree.
I think it's the way we tell the

569
00:37:34,330 --> 00:37:37,090
story that matters more.
I mean, nobody wants to just sit

570
00:37:37,090 --> 00:37:40,250
down and learn about DNA.
People need to actually see what

571
00:37:40,530 --> 00:37:43,060
DNA does.
Is when you actually observe

572
00:37:43,060 --> 00:37:46,220
this.
It's literally it will change

573
00:37:46,220 --> 00:37:50,580
someone's mind when they watch
how we get manufactured and made

574
00:37:50,580 --> 00:37:52,460
and assembled.
It's not an intricately

575
00:37:52,460 --> 00:37:56,420
beautiful thing to watch, and
today we have the technology to

576
00:37:56,420 --> 00:37:58,700
do that.
And yet, most people still don't

577
00:37:58,700 --> 00:38:01,740
believe DNA even exists or
exists.

578
00:38:03,270 --> 00:38:04,830
It's bizarre.
To what Americans?

579
00:38:05,150 --> 00:38:06,950
I don't know.
I don't remember what the

580
00:38:06,950 --> 00:38:11,150
percentage of Americans who
doubt the theory of natural

581
00:38:11,150 --> 00:38:14,270
selection is, but it's
phenomenally high.

582
00:38:14,350 --> 00:38:21,070
I know it's.
Yeah, it's It's all.

583
00:38:21,830 --> 00:38:23,630
Like in South Africa, it's no
different, I think.

584
00:38:23,630 --> 00:38:25,790
I'm pretty sure the majority of
the population feel the same

585
00:38:25,790 --> 00:38:30,430
way, but it's still fascinating
to see how people doubt things

586
00:38:30,430 --> 00:38:34,190
we can actively show them.
I mean, you know, you've got

587
00:38:34,390 --> 00:38:35,670
we're living in such strange
times.

588
00:38:35,670 --> 00:38:39,350
People thought Flat Earth,
people talk about ridiculous

589
00:38:39,350 --> 00:38:43,350
things that that that they seem
to rationalize very well.

590
00:38:43,350 --> 00:38:45,230
And I think this is somewhere
where you keep them in.

591
00:38:45,750 --> 00:38:49,110
And why do you think we're able
to rationalize such bizarre

592
00:38:49,110 --> 00:38:52,230
theories?
Look, I don't want to offend any

593
00:38:52,230 --> 00:38:55,070
flat earthers out there because
obviously this is not touching

594
00:38:55,070 --> 00:38:56,790
on certain political issues,
but.

595
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,000
When you when we when we talk
about consciousness we've got

596
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,080
idealism where consciousness is
everything that there is.

597
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,160
We've got panpsychism where all
matter is mind.

598
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,600
You've got quantum consciousness
where there's these elements of

599
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,760
consciousness we will never
understand because we don't

600
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,800
understand quantum physics.
Do you think that we have these

601
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,560
theories because of this longing
to matter and and that sort of

602
00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:26,840
adds to this?
Because that goes completely

603
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,240
against what we seem to get from
the data.

604
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:36,560
Well, there's one hidden premise
that we haven't touched on yet,

605
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:46,000
and it is that whatever our
current science is, it's kind of

606
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:56,960
complete.
I think both both illusionists

607
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,080
and is that the word 1 user
proponents of Illusionism or you

608
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,440
just call it a yes.
We used to call them eliminative

609
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,640
materialists.
Yeah, I mean and Paul

610
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,680
Churchland, if you think about
that, cuz they do a very similar

611
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,080
thing with.
Eliminative materialism, yes.

612
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:19,920
Yeah, yeah.
And and reductive materialists,

613
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,700
you know.
I would say Cartesian dualists,

614
00:40:25,700 --> 00:40:27,260
if there are any still around, I
don't know.

615
00:40:27,260 --> 00:40:30,660
There's also the emergentists.
So those who believe that as

616
00:40:30,660 --> 00:40:34,060
phenomena gets sort of higher
sort of like water molecules

617
00:40:34,260 --> 00:40:37,580
separately sort of combined to
form water H2O.

618
00:40:38,220 --> 00:40:43,660
That's sort of an option.
Yeah, that somehow we've got the

619
00:40:43,980 --> 00:40:49,620
basic concepts that explain
external reality, all of

620
00:40:49,620 --> 00:40:51,100
external reality, and we know
that.

621
00:40:51,860 --> 00:40:55,980
And that's you know so whatever
we have you know let's let's

622
00:40:55,980 --> 00:41:01,180
generalize it to a theory and I
mean Cartesian do less

623
00:41:02,580 --> 00:41:07,420
incredibly so because I mean to
draw the conclusion that we are

624
00:41:07,420 --> 00:41:11,420
not matter to be in a position
to do that we'd have to know

625
00:41:12,060 --> 00:41:14,580
have a complete description of
matter otherwise it's you know

626
00:41:14,580 --> 00:41:18,860
we can be lurking down there and
you know how how can we.

627
00:41:20,050 --> 00:41:24,570
Ever draw that conclusion?
And because there is that that

628
00:41:24,570 --> 00:41:29,610
we can't explain the emergence
of of matter would be an enough

629
00:41:29,610 --> 00:41:33,170
reason to doubt that we have a
complete description of matter.

630
00:41:33,170 --> 00:41:35,210
So you can't do it
noncircularly.

631
00:41:35,330 --> 00:41:38,530
You couldn't draw the the, the
dualist conclusion.

632
00:41:38,530 --> 00:41:41,290
I mean, there could be other
reasons for drawing the dualist

633
00:41:42,330 --> 00:41:45,050
conclusion like you you've seen,
you know, you've had an

634
00:41:45,050 --> 00:41:47,880
experience of.
Someone coming back from the

635
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:53,240
dead or you know something like
that or you know and yeah you

636
00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:57,760
were you've seen a ghost or
something but you know that

637
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:03,360
would be some empirical evidence
that for it you know but but not

638
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,560
from the fact that we can't
derive these properties from our

639
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,720
current description of matter
and all of these things.

640
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:13,080
I think you know that's like
we're we're jumping the gun

641
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:14,760
here.
You know we've.

642
00:42:16,290 --> 00:42:18,610
I suppose you know.
And why do we do that?

643
00:42:19,130 --> 00:42:21,730
We're arrogant, I think.
You know.

644
00:42:21,730 --> 00:42:26,930
And our science is so extremely
powerful and you know it, it's

645
00:42:26,930 --> 00:42:30,810
awesome too, you know.
But we, you know, we don't

646
00:42:30,850 --> 00:42:36,290
really even know how to
reconcile relativity theory with

647
00:42:36,290 --> 00:42:40,050
quantum mechanics, you know, So
with, you know, and these are

648
00:42:40,050 --> 00:42:43,770
our two most powerful theories,
and they have deep.

649
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,960
Their reconcile abilities.
We know this is not the end of

650
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,440
the physics story.
There is so much we don't have

651
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,520
the major concepts that can
absorb everything.

652
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,800
Maybe we never will.
We're just we're just slightly

653
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,520
smarter apes.
It's amazing that we've done

654
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,440
what we've done.
We forget this.

655
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,240
I think everybody should spend
time in front.

656
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:12,790
Forgive this one percentage of a
DNA that changes us from being

657
00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:15,910
sort of a chimp or a different
great ape.

658
00:43:17,430 --> 00:43:20,190
And it is something amazing we
can do because we have self

659
00:43:20,190 --> 00:43:24,430
reflection, you know, this thing
we can step outside of ourselves

660
00:43:24,430 --> 00:43:29,230
and analyze ourselves and this.
And that's really different from

661
00:43:29,230 --> 00:43:31,550
chimpanzees, I think, you know,
I mean, they've shown that

662
00:43:31,550 --> 00:43:35,660
chimpanzees have some kind of.
Theory of mind you know and

663
00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:41,260
they're not so far from us as we
had thought right And then there

664
00:43:41,260 --> 00:43:48,980
the with Deval those experiences
where the I guess it's a monkey.

665
00:43:49,630 --> 00:43:53,430
Gets for learns a trick and and
and and one of them gets

666
00:43:53,430 --> 00:43:56,390
cucumbers and one of them gets
something much more tasty.

667
00:43:56,390 --> 00:43:59,230
And then the one who gets the
cucumbers starts like throwing

668
00:43:59,230 --> 00:44:00,950
it.
You know, it's like a goes on

669
00:44:00,950 --> 00:44:02,630
strike.
It's unfair, you know.

670
00:44:02,630 --> 00:44:05,670
So there's some sort of sense of
self fair, right.

671
00:44:06,070 --> 00:44:09,350
But what we have, you know, in
our self reflection and in our

672
00:44:09,350 --> 00:44:12,390
ability for self transcendence,
you know, just really get

673
00:44:12,390 --> 00:44:15,230
outside of ourselves and think
what is it all mean?

674
00:44:15,230 --> 00:44:17,270
Do I matter?
All you know, all of this stuff

675
00:44:17,270 --> 00:44:19,510
that I'm very into at this
point.

676
00:44:20,390 --> 00:44:25,230
Is this I think you know this is
kind of unique to us but it's

677
00:44:25,230 --> 00:44:28,910
just you know this is our niche
that we've filled.

678
00:44:29,070 --> 00:44:32,670
I don't know if we evolved for
self reflection or if it was

679
00:44:32,670 --> 00:44:40,510
just a what do they call it,
what was oh, Steven J, Google's

680
00:44:40,510 --> 00:44:43,430
word word for it, the thing that
we it's it's, you know, it's a

681
00:44:43,870 --> 00:44:50,620
epiphenomenon of epiphenomenon.
But the self reflection, oh God,

682
00:44:50,900 --> 00:44:53,100
it's what was that word?
It's it's from an from

683
00:44:53,100 --> 00:44:56,260
architecture.
The the, the parts of the arch

684
00:44:57,180 --> 00:44:59,500
that was just there and then
they used it.

685
00:44:59,940 --> 00:45:01,060
I can't think of the word right
now.

686
00:45:01,300 --> 00:45:04,700
But anyway, you know, so it's
just but that self reflection is

687
00:45:04,700 --> 00:45:09,780
really has a lot to do with what
is it like to be, you know, to

688
00:45:09,780 --> 00:45:12,450
be us.
You know, trying to justify our

689
00:45:12,450 --> 00:45:14,530
lives and all of this stuff that
we do.

690
00:45:14,850 --> 00:45:17,810
I don't think gyms do this, you
know, so we're we there is

691
00:45:17,810 --> 00:45:20,610
something a little that we've
evolved that's made us very,

692
00:45:20,770 --> 00:45:24,760
very much more complicated.
Look, I think because the main,

693
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,040
one of the main reasons why I
started this podcast was to show

694
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,680
how difficult the problem, the
mind body problem is.

695
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,160
Not just theoretically though,
but practically because it has

696
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,280
so many other philosophical
implications.

697
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,600
Let's say we'll leave psychiatry
at the throw out for now.

698
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,400
But the question of free will, I
know, I know this fascinates you

699
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,640
and it definitely fascinates me.
I mean, what do we do about

700
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,000
this?
I mean, we know that certain

701
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,620
things take place and different
times.

702
00:45:50,820 --> 00:45:52,860
I mean the sun.
If the sun had to disappear, we

703
00:45:52,860 --> 00:45:54,980
don't notice 8 minutes later
that it's gone.

704
00:45:56,020 --> 00:45:58,860
So there's naive realism that we
think reality occurs the way it

705
00:45:58,860 --> 00:46:01,380
does.
What are your thoughts on free

706
00:46:01,380 --> 00:46:04,180
will and should we approach this
question?

707
00:46:05,620 --> 00:46:09,100
Some writer, I think it was
Isaac Bishop, a singer and said.

708
00:46:11,230 --> 00:46:16,630
I I believe in pretty well.
I have no choice and it's very

709
00:46:16,630 --> 00:46:19,350
witty, right.
But it is very true, right.

710
00:46:19,350 --> 00:46:25,750
I mean I I it's extremely
difficult to reconcile with what

711
00:46:25,750 --> 00:46:31,470
we know, you know that you know
there is, there is an

712
00:46:31,470 --> 00:46:33,550
explanation for everything we
do.

713
00:46:35,140 --> 00:46:38,020
Then how are we free?
And if there's not an

714
00:46:38,020 --> 00:46:40,740
explanation for everything we
do, if it's just sort of this

715
00:46:40,860 --> 00:46:43,020
arbitrary thing, it just hits
us.

716
00:46:43,020 --> 00:46:45,900
You know, there's there's
nothing in our former history

717
00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:48,900
that would explain this.
Well, where's our agency and how

718
00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:51,100
can we be free?
So whether there is an

719
00:46:51,100 --> 00:46:55,260
explanation for everything we do
or there isn't, how can how can

720
00:46:55,260 --> 00:46:57,540
we be free agents?
You know, this seems to be a

721
00:46:57,540 --> 00:47:01,600
paradox, and I don't.
No my way out of that.

722
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,200
No.
That's why it's a very good

723
00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:08,760
philosophical problem.
But there can be no human life

724
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,880
without our taking
responsibility for our actions

725
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,680
being accountable to ourselves
and to one another.

726
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:22,120
There can be no there can be we
if we we can't account for it

727
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:27,200
but we this accountability but
it has to be part of our.

728
00:47:28,010 --> 00:47:30,850
Lives are there is no human
life.

729
00:47:31,170 --> 00:47:33,210
But there are so many things
like that.

730
00:47:33,810 --> 00:47:39,490
I mean, David Hume showed us we
can't account for the uniformity

731
00:47:39,490 --> 00:47:42,170
of nature that just because
things have all, you know, so

732
00:47:42,170 --> 00:47:48,050
the are the the fairy
presumption that grounds all of

733
00:47:48,050 --> 00:47:51,860
our empirical knowledge.
We can't account for that.

734
00:47:51,860 --> 00:47:53,500
There is no way to account for
that.

735
00:47:53,780 --> 00:47:56,060
But there's no science.
There's nothing.

736
00:47:56,060 --> 00:47:59,820
There's no common sense or
science or anything if you don't

737
00:47:59,820 --> 00:48:02,460
presume it.
Logic too.

738
00:48:02,460 --> 00:48:05,500
We can, you know.
Pour Descartes tried to go on

739
00:48:05,500 --> 00:48:08,860
and and and and and justify.
Logic should approve the

740
00:48:08,860 --> 00:48:13,420
validity of logic, of course,
circularly, because how can you

741
00:48:14,060 --> 00:48:17,660
not presume logic in the proof
of logic?

742
00:48:18,060 --> 00:48:20,180
We are caught.
Right.

743
00:48:20,220 --> 00:48:25,060
There are a lot of things we
have to presume being humans

744
00:48:25,100 --> 00:48:27,500
without being able to account
for them.

745
00:48:27,940 --> 00:48:31,660
And I kind of think, you know,
free will is one of them.

746
00:48:32,460 --> 00:48:37,500
No consciousness is another.
No our limits.

747
00:48:38,620 --> 00:48:42,540
Maybe the mere fact that human
life can't.

748
00:48:43,370 --> 00:48:46,330
Be pursued without presuming
these things.

749
00:48:46,410 --> 00:48:51,370
You know, deductive logic,
inductive logic, some sorts of

750
00:48:51,770 --> 00:48:57,770
some kind of agency for which
we're responsible is itself a

751
00:48:57,770 --> 00:49:05,330
kind of justification.
It's, you know, it's you label

752
00:49:05,330 --> 00:49:06,730
yourself into any sort of
category.

753
00:49:06,730 --> 00:49:09,530
When it comes to free will.
Are you compatible list?

754
00:49:09,970 --> 00:49:12,050
Are you?
Do you actually find yourself in

755
00:49:12,050 --> 00:49:14,130
any sort of a label in that
sense?

756
00:49:15,290 --> 00:49:19,010
No, I'm committed to it without
being able to account for it as

757
00:49:19,010 --> 00:49:20,530
I am.
For so many things.

758
00:49:21,570 --> 00:49:24,250
I find the same things for me.
I often say I'm ontologically

759
00:49:24,250 --> 00:49:25,930
agnostic.
I just have no idea.

760
00:49:27,370 --> 00:49:30,170
Yeah, but epistemologically I
can tell you what a lot of

761
00:49:30,170 --> 00:49:32,410
things I think are not true, is
what I often say.

762
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:34,600
I think that's I'm with you.
Yeah.

763
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:36,480
I must be there.
Yes.

764
00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:39,240
Yes, it comes to free will.
I mean the the reason why I

765
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:41,680
brought this up was also because
I mean of course you worked at

766
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,960
Nagle and you know he wrote
about moral luck.

767
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,440
And I mean and that comes into a
very important aspect.

768
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,480
I mean, a lot of people are not
put into this, into this planet

769
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,200
the same way.
And therefore their existence is

770
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,000
determined by pre-existing
factors that are far beyond

771
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,760
their control.
And and what does that mean and

772
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:02,680
how does it affect him?
And he spoke about different

773
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:04,960
types of luck.
And then you've got new people

774
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:09,640
like Dirk Peer Boom, Greg
Caruso, who also discussed this

775
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,760
accountability, this.
There's longing for punishment

776
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,640
and and blameworthiness and
praiseworthiness.

777
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,360
Should we be doing this?
Is this how we should be living

778
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:23,950
life or should we eliminate this
sort of view and and view things

779
00:50:24,270 --> 00:50:28,430
as we just shouldn't be held
accountable technically because

780
00:50:28,750 --> 00:50:32,910
of the fact that there are these
factors like luck that that

781
00:50:32,910 --> 00:50:36,310
predispose us to let's say being
more likely to murder someone

782
00:50:36,310 --> 00:50:40,670
one day or or to commit a crime.
We're that.

783
00:50:40,670 --> 00:50:42,630
I know that's a lot.
Can we be?

784
00:50:42,630 --> 00:50:46,310
Can I don't know.
Can we believe in accountability

785
00:50:46,310 --> 00:50:53,590
without being?
Also a tiny blame.

786
00:50:58,350 --> 00:51:04,750
That's the view I like.
And and that actually is a kind

787
00:51:04,750 --> 00:51:08,630
of spinosist view.
It was a very, very strict

788
00:51:08,630 --> 00:51:17,150
determinist, but it's yeah, that
is, you know that it's a tough

789
00:51:17,150 --> 00:51:19,710
one.
Like, yes, it is.

790
00:51:19,750 --> 00:51:25,590
It is a tough one.
I don't know if I want, you

791
00:51:25,590 --> 00:51:30,350
know, Holding ourselves
accountable is very important to

792
00:51:30,350 --> 00:51:34,190
the moral life.
You know, moral realism is

793
00:51:34,190 --> 00:51:37,350
something important.
I know you take this to be

794
00:51:37,350 --> 00:51:40,310
something very important to.
Yeah, it's not that I think that

795
00:51:40,310 --> 00:51:43,670
there are these extra facts,
moral facts.

796
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,040
Coming down from from Plato's
Heaven.

797
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,520
No it's not that kind of, but
that.

798
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:53,960
Well, I mean I think again I go
back.

799
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:58,040
I think that for for complicated
reasons really going back to

800
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:05,320
physics I would say an entropy
we are we, we are creatures of

801
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,000
matter who take our own
Mannering very seriously.

802
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:13,360
We, we, we, it's possible to
pursue a life without thinking.

803
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:17,400
That you matter and I mean in
fact what clinical depression

804
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:21,040
is, are people who you know
don't.

805
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:23,360
They don't matter.
Nothing they can do.

806
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,080
Others matter, but they don't,
you know.

807
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:28,320
So it's just part of mental
health, well-being, all of these

808
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,760
things to have some sense of
Mannering, which should quickly

809
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:36,720
get us to, well, if we're going
to embrace this for ourselves,

810
00:52:36,720 --> 00:52:38,520
we have to embrace it, certainly
for.

811
00:52:39,060 --> 00:52:42,940
All members of ours, at least of
our species if not other species

812
00:52:42,940 --> 00:52:45,020
as well, which I would also
extend it to.

813
00:52:45,540 --> 00:52:51,140
But you know that this is if we
can't get along without this

814
00:52:51,140 --> 00:52:54,780
presumption and neither
certainly can any other Homo

815
00:52:54,900 --> 00:53:00,100
homo sapiens.
So it's that sense of, I mean

816
00:53:00,140 --> 00:53:05,340
that's the kind of moral realism
and I, you know that just to

817
00:53:05,340 --> 00:53:08,180
acknowledge the equal Mannering
of everybody.

818
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:13,520
In our in our species would get
us very far to a better world.

819
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,600
If we really believe that, you
know, we would get rid of

820
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:23,120
classes and racism and sexism,
you know, just all sorts of

821
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:26,400
those isms that say some people
matter more than others.

822
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:30,680
You know, we would get very,
very far, you know, we get rid

823
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:34,000
of all of them.
The more noxious forms of

824
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:38,370
tribalism and such, you know.
That's a good enough morality

825
00:53:38,370 --> 00:53:42,370
for me, Yeah.
A lot of people think that.

826
00:53:42,370 --> 00:53:45,890
Obviously, if you have to, in
order to have a strong sense of

827
00:53:45,890 --> 00:53:50,250
a moral grounding, you need some
sort of a spirituality or a

828
00:53:50,410 --> 00:53:53,050
religious belief.
And of course, I mean as a

829
00:53:53,050 --> 00:53:54,930
secular humanist, you disagree
with that.

830
00:53:54,930 --> 00:53:57,250
And firmly, I mean, I disagree
with that personally, because

831
00:53:57,250 --> 00:54:02,740
I'm very similar in that sense.
How do you ground your views and

832
00:54:02,740 --> 00:54:06,380
your moral realism?
Where do you find that longing

833
00:54:06,380 --> 00:54:09,460
to matter?
When I, you know, I think it's

834
00:54:09,460 --> 00:54:15,420
just a fact that we do long to
matter and I think we can trace

835
00:54:15,420 --> 00:54:21,820
it back to natural selection and
you know, everything struggles

836
00:54:21,820 --> 00:54:24,300
to actually spin.
I was like and he had this

837
00:54:24,300 --> 00:54:29,190
notion of Konatas, the drive.
Persist and to flourish in one's

838
00:54:29,190 --> 00:54:32,790
own being that we got every
everything had.

839
00:54:33,030 --> 00:54:36,230
Well, certainly every living
thing has this right?

840
00:54:36,910 --> 00:54:39,630
And you know when it goes back
to entropy, I mean we're all

841
00:54:39,630 --> 00:54:42,670
going towards dissolution,
death, decay, all of that.

842
00:54:43,390 --> 00:54:46,990
That's what physical systems do.
And we have to devote an

843
00:54:47,430 --> 00:54:51,950
incredible amount of energy we
have to be devoted to, to really

844
00:54:52,710 --> 00:54:56,670
chlorine in the energy to for a
while.

845
00:54:57,110 --> 00:55:02,830
Delay the inevitable, right?
And so to be a living thing is

846
00:55:03,230 --> 00:55:09,790
to be hiding constantly against
entropy by gathering the energy

847
00:55:09,870 --> 00:55:12,630
that we can, right?
And so and that's how natural

848
00:55:12,630 --> 00:55:16,910
selection works, you know,
that's how ultimately.

849
00:55:17,810 --> 00:55:20,930
You know, some people from the
religious right, you know, think

850
00:55:20,930 --> 00:55:24,090
that there is in fact an
incompatibility between their

851
00:55:24,090 --> 00:55:26,530
natural selection and the theory
of entropy.

852
00:55:26,530 --> 00:55:29,490
And no, no, exactly, You can
actually drive, as Schrodinger,

853
00:55:29,490 --> 00:55:33,370
the great physicist, showed.
And what it's like that.

854
00:55:33,410 --> 00:55:37,410
No, it really it's entailed by
entropy.

855
00:55:37,810 --> 00:55:41,850
Anyway, so yeah, so we have to
be devoted to of all the things

856
00:55:41,850 --> 00:55:45,370
in the universe, the one thing
that we happen to be, that's the

857
00:55:45,370 --> 00:55:49,730
one who we we, you know,
fighting and getting the energy

858
00:55:49,730 --> 00:55:54,410
to delay the inevitable.
You know, the everything, the

859
00:55:54,570 --> 00:55:57,650
the, the grass struggling up
through the sidewalk.

860
00:55:57,650 --> 00:56:04,810
You know the the to us.
You know we are struggling for

861
00:56:04,810 --> 00:56:10,170
the energy to to, to.
Offset entropy.

862
00:56:10,810 --> 00:56:15,570
But we with this incredible
complicated brain that has self

863
00:56:15,570 --> 00:56:18,770
reflection and self
transcendence, can step outside

864
00:56:18,770 --> 00:56:23,090
of ourselves and say, you know,
who am I that why am I so

865
00:56:23,130 --> 00:56:26,570
devoted to the flourishing of
this?

866
00:56:26,690 --> 00:56:30,130
Of all the things in the
universe, why should I care so

867
00:56:30,130 --> 00:56:31,530
much about this?
And then?

868
00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:35,400
We turn from Homo sapiens into
what I call Homo justificas.

869
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:39,440
We we are the ones who want to
justify our existence in all

870
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:41,240
sorts of ways.
You know, we have their

871
00:56:41,240 --> 00:56:48,520
activities to do it, but, you
know, and and and but to.

872
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:53,520
We're never going to as long as
we're going to persist in our

873
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,560
lives and to pursue it.
And as Natal says in his article

874
00:56:56,560 --> 00:57:00,160
and the absurd, well, who else's
life am I going to pursue, if

875
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,510
not my own?
A very deep joke, right?

876
00:57:05,630 --> 00:57:07,390
Then.
As long as you know we're going

877
00:57:07,390 --> 00:57:12,070
to to do this, and we could
terribly outrage when people

878
00:57:12,070 --> 00:57:15,830
don't recognize our right to
pursue our lives to flourish.

879
00:57:17,630 --> 00:57:21,670
Well, any justification I'm
going to be able to offer to for

880
00:57:21,670 --> 00:57:24,630
why others should recognize my
right to do this?

881
00:57:25,070 --> 00:57:30,270
It's got to be generalized to at
least every other member of my

882
00:57:30,270 --> 00:57:32,770
species.
It's not other species as well.

883
00:57:32,770 --> 00:57:38,010
I mean I think that true, yes,
that is that's how I ground it.

884
00:57:38,010 --> 00:57:43,690
That's how I ground it using
nothing but ultimately entropy.

885
00:57:43,690 --> 00:57:46,530
Do you ever get entropy?
What that means for living

886
00:57:46,530 --> 00:57:48,770
system?
Do you ever get this nihilistic

887
00:57:48,770 --> 00:57:51,330
feeling?
It's almost as if this universe

888
00:57:51,330 --> 00:57:56,790
went through 13.8 billion years
of developing, 4.8 billion years

889
00:57:56,790 --> 00:58:00,390
of this planet and then after a
couple billion years we evolve.

890
00:58:00,390 --> 00:58:02,430
I mean, we get the
self-awareness and we know in a

891
00:58:02,430 --> 00:58:04,830
few years it's gonna all go
away.

892
00:58:05,550 --> 00:58:07,510
It's almost like a huge joke's
been played on us.

893
00:58:07,510 --> 00:58:11,110
I mean, we were made self aware
and now suddenly everything is

894
00:58:11,110 --> 00:58:13,910
gonna go away.
Does that nihilistic thought

895
00:58:13,910 --> 00:58:15,710
ever come to you?
Do you ever have this thought

896
00:58:15,710 --> 00:58:18,150
like?
And it's a bit bleak.

897
00:58:19,270 --> 00:58:23,360
Yeah.
Yeah, life is but a passing

898
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:27,600
shadow, a poor player, and we're
upon the stage and then we're

899
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:29,400
not even the main characters in
this game.

900
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:31,280
We're just a part of this play.
That's.

901
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:35,560
Yeah.
And, you know, yeah, yeah.

902
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:41,280
I mean, I think it occurs to
every member of our species.

903
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:45,360
You know, it certainly occurred
to Shakespeare and and and to

904
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:50,200
the Greeks as well.
Yeah, that is what it is to have

905
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:53,610
this complicated brain.
That can step outside itself.

906
00:58:54,930 --> 00:59:01,570
And yes, I think that's good and
I think I think it's good for

907
00:59:01,570 --> 00:59:05,690
the soul, you know, to do this
kind of thing.

908
00:59:06,650 --> 00:59:09,410
And but then I, you know, the
other thing that we spoke about

909
00:59:09,810 --> 00:59:12,090
wow.
But while we're here.

910
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,160
What a story, right?
Maybe.

911
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:18,240
And for me, I mean we all have
our own ways.

912
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:20,800
We homo justice.
We all have our own ways of

913
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:25,920
trying to justify.
But to me, oh, maybe I can add a

914
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:29,440
little letter to the story.
One little thing, participate in

915
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,960
it, you know?
Cool.

916
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:37,160
You know, that's that's cool.
And you get a chance to sort of,

917
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:40,800
like, imprint yourself into this
story somehow.

918
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:45,240
That will go out.
We'll, we'll go out with our

919
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:47,440
son.
We will go out or maybe much,

920
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:52,360
much sooner given, you know, the
way we're behaving.

921
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:56,920
But yeah, I don't know.
Is it bleak?

922
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,840
It's both bleak.
It's both bleak and wonderful.

923
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:02,040
It is.
It's almost this dichotomy.

924
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:06,520
It's like it's it's both.
It's awesome or inspiring and

925
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:13,300
yet still very very concerning
and and and and confusing like

926
01:00:13,300 --> 01:00:14,860
1.
Exactly.

927
01:00:15,540 --> 01:00:20,020
I think that's a thoughtful
place to be.

928
01:00:22,060 --> 01:00:26,500
You know exactly what you Yeah,
just, like, confused.

929
01:00:26,980 --> 01:00:30,540
Baffled.
And you grew up very obviously

930
01:00:30,860 --> 01:00:34,860
Orthodox Jewish background.
And I mean, at some point you

931
01:00:34,860 --> 01:00:37,020
obviously you spent a lot of
time in the library, you were

932
01:00:37,020 --> 01:00:39,100
reading a lot of books, and they
obviously allowed you to read

933
01:00:39,100 --> 01:00:40,980
them.
When you became an atheist and

934
01:00:40,980 --> 01:00:45,460
you came out, do you still label
yourself as an atheist, or do

935
01:00:45,460 --> 01:00:47,380
you have some sort of a
different way of describing your

936
01:00:47,380 --> 01:00:50,140
beliefs, your personal?
I like secular humanists because

937
01:00:50,140 --> 01:00:53,420
it's much more positive.
It tells right.

938
01:00:53,420 --> 01:00:58,500
I believe.
I believe we humans are worth

939
01:00:58,500 --> 01:01:03,380
preserving and that there are
ways that we want to treat one

940
01:01:03,380 --> 01:01:07,260
another and that it's not
founded on anything

941
01:01:07,340 --> 01:01:11,990
supernatural.
And that we can reason our way

942
01:01:11,990 --> 01:01:15,550
there and and it would be a good
thing to do.

943
01:01:17,350 --> 01:01:20,270
Yeah, I find even the question
isn't a great thing.

944
01:01:20,270 --> 01:01:24,190
I think that I like to say I'm
agnostic regarding the origins

945
01:01:24,190 --> 01:01:27,710
of the universe, but I'm very
much atheist to the stories

946
01:01:27,710 --> 01:01:30,270
human beings have told over
time, you know.

947
01:01:31,790 --> 01:01:34,630
I like that very much, Yes.
Yes.

948
01:01:34,630 --> 01:01:38,190
I mean it's again you know as if
we're never can say.

949
01:01:38,870 --> 01:01:41,150
I don't know.
I've got no idea.

950
01:01:43,070 --> 01:01:44,910
Classifications and these
groupings.

951
01:01:44,910 --> 01:01:47,590
And you wanna you wanna have
this tribal group of people who

952
01:01:47,950 --> 01:01:50,190
who've called themselves
atheists as well, and you want

953
01:01:50,190 --> 01:01:52,710
these people who say, I also
don't really like that.

954
01:01:53,790 --> 01:01:56,390
I don't.
I mean, at first I embraced it

955
01:01:56,390 --> 01:02:03,030
because I very enthusiastically
because it was I had to live a

956
01:02:03,030 --> 01:02:04,790
difficult, you know, I was sort
of.

957
01:02:07,100 --> 01:02:13,140
For for family reasons, I, I, I
people thought I was Orthodox

958
01:02:13,140 --> 01:02:16,740
and and and I was completely not
in my head.

959
01:02:17,380 --> 01:02:21,460
But out of respect for my
family, especially for my

960
01:02:21,460 --> 01:02:24,060
parents when they were still
alive, I lived that way.

961
01:02:24,060 --> 01:02:28,620
It meant so much to them and it
didn't meant so much that they

962
01:02:28,620 --> 01:02:30,940
could eat at the house and you
know, all these things that

963
01:02:31,740 --> 01:02:35,660
anyway, but when I could
finally.

964
01:02:36,020 --> 01:02:38,860
You know, say no, no, no, no.
I don't believe in any of this

965
01:02:39,940 --> 01:02:45,580
was so.
It was so, yeah, liberating.

966
01:02:45,580 --> 01:02:50,020
And it felt like integrity, you
know, because there was so many

967
01:02:50,020 --> 01:02:53,740
times when I just couldn't
answer what I really thought

968
01:02:54,180 --> 01:02:57,380
because it would discomfort
people that I loved.

969
01:02:59,580 --> 01:03:02,900
So, yes, so I was like and I got
like every atheist award, the

970
01:03:02,900 --> 01:03:06,260
Richard Dawkins award, that this
award, I think they were also

971
01:03:07,460 --> 01:03:11,460
eager for a woman because it's
it's a very male dominated

972
01:03:11,460 --> 01:03:15,220
group, like most of the groups
that I've been associated with

973
01:03:15,980 --> 01:03:22,390
including Orthodox Judaism.
But I mean it must have been,

974
01:03:22,470 --> 01:03:24,870
must have been an intriguing and
fascinating journey.

975
01:03:24,870 --> 01:03:27,430
I mean, because you obviously
didn't know coming up Orthodox

976
01:03:28,110 --> 01:03:29,590
that you'd even be able to
study.

977
01:03:29,590 --> 01:03:32,710
You wouldn't be able to do the
things you wanted to do because

978
01:03:32,710 --> 01:03:34,910
this affects your life directly
in so many ways.

979
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:37,320
Yes.
No, I mean, the Public Library

980
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:41,880
was just my savior.
And my parents were very liberal

981
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:43,160
about, you know what I could
read.

982
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:48,400
I mean, as long as, for example,
when I was 13, I brought home a

983
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,840
book from the library by
Bertrand Russell, a very

984
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,720
important figure and my
development.

985
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:57,800
And.
But it was called Why I'm Not a

986
01:03:57,800 --> 01:03:59,400
Christian.
My parents looked at it.

987
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:01,320
It's like, yeah, fine, We don't
want you to be Christian.

988
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:05,230
You're Jewish, right?
I've had a very similar

989
01:04:05,230 --> 01:04:08,150
experience because when in my
from my family comes from

990
01:04:08,190 --> 01:04:11,350
Islamic background, the other
half from Hinduist, A Hindu

991
01:04:11,350 --> 01:04:13,710
background.
And I've got a lot of Christian

992
01:04:13,710 --> 01:04:16,150
family as well.
And and wherever I went with,

993
01:04:16,150 --> 01:04:19,670
there was a temple, a mosque, a
a church.

994
01:04:19,670 --> 01:04:22,950
Whenever I ask questions, I've
always shunned and felt like the

995
01:04:22,950 --> 01:04:25,150
outsider.
So, So for me as well, coming

996
01:04:25,150 --> 01:04:28,510
out as that kid who just firmly
just disagreed with all of this,

997
01:04:28,790 --> 01:04:31,810
it is that liberating, that
experience.

998
01:04:31,810 --> 01:04:34,370
It's almost like it's like
coming out of the closet sort of

999
01:04:34,370 --> 01:04:37,170
thing.
You're like, I want to be proud

1000
01:04:37,170 --> 01:04:40,090
of it and you come out as the
strong atheist, you know you

1001
01:04:40,090 --> 01:04:42,930
want to.
So I completely get why you're

1002
01:04:42,930 --> 01:04:45,850
winning these atheist awards at
the time.

1003
01:04:46,130 --> 01:04:49,330
But over time, it tends to fade
and you tend to slowly become a

1004
01:04:49,330 --> 01:04:52,370
little more tolerant of other
people's views.

1005
01:04:52,370 --> 01:04:55,290
But at the time, I remember the
anger and the and the feeling I

1006
01:04:55,290 --> 01:04:56,290
had.
I mean, it was this.

1007
01:04:57,610 --> 01:05:01,010
Yes, and I I had put it off for.
So many decades.

1008
01:05:02,370 --> 01:05:04,250
And so it's like, really
interesting.

1009
01:05:04,330 --> 01:05:11,370
Yes, unfortunately my husband
just signaled me and I'm using

1010
01:05:11,370 --> 01:05:17,370
his Cam camera and now he needs
it Steven for.

1011
01:05:19,250 --> 01:05:23,330
We fight over the camera for
Yes.

1012
01:05:24,290 --> 01:05:27,810
Do you want to conclude?
And then we can perhaps one day

1013
01:05:27,810 --> 01:05:30,770
schedule around 2:00.
Yes, because we're really

1014
01:05:30,770 --> 01:05:32,050
getting to the really good
stuff.

1015
01:05:32,130 --> 01:05:34,370
Yeah, because there's still so
much I have to ask and there's

1016
01:05:34,370 --> 01:05:37,370
so much we need to get into.
And Steven, you invited as well

1017
01:05:37,370 --> 01:05:41,490
at some point to to give us your
views in the mind body problem

1018
01:05:41,490 --> 01:05:44,250
just because I.
Yes, yes, yeah.

1019
01:05:44,290 --> 01:05:47,090
Well, his views are very good.
You know when I read, when I

1020
01:05:47,090 --> 01:05:50,690
read how the how the mind works,
I was waiting when he, waiting

1021
01:05:50,690 --> 01:05:56,330
to see how he would deal with
this problem and I I I tell you.

1022
01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:00,800
In all honesty, as much as I
know my own mind, which maybe as

1023
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:08,000
I say it's not completely we
would not be married and I not

1024
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:11,560
loved the one paragraph in which
she addressed this.

1025
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:14,040
I know there was you guys have a
really nerdy love story.

1026
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:17,120
There was the he mentioned you
in one of his footnotes.

1027
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:18,920
Was that, I think, anyone in one
of his books?

1028
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:25,320
OK, it was actually in the text
he quoted my use of.

1029
01:06:27,390 --> 01:06:33,230
Irregular I had written, I had
written, had strident rather

1030
01:06:33,230 --> 01:06:35,790
than had strided.
And one of my most obscure books

1031
01:06:35,790 --> 01:06:39,270
that nobody other than my editor
read, and I'm not even sure

1032
01:06:39,270 --> 01:06:43,070
about my editor.
And then I see including this in

1033
01:06:43,150 --> 01:06:46,710
in one of his books and I first
thought, I thought, because I

1034
01:06:46,710 --> 01:06:50,110
saw my name he was he was he was
actually arguing in the pages of

1035
01:06:50,110 --> 01:06:53,990
the New York A review of Yes,
with Steven J Gould.

1036
01:06:53,990 --> 01:06:55,480
So I looked up.
And the index?

1037
01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:56,680
Gould.
And there's not Gould.

1038
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:59,280
There's Goldstein, Rebecca.
But it's a terribly common name,

1039
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:01,280
and I thought it's another one.
I have nothing to do with the

1040
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:04,600
regular verbs.
Sure enough, yes.

1041
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:10,120
And so yes, we are held together
by this irregular verb because

1042
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:13,040
it's an amazing, I mean, both of
you are truly inspiring or I

1043
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:16,360
have like a whole shelf with
both your books side by side in

1044
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:19,960
my book.
So I look forward to us chatting

1045
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:22,080
again.
And Steven you can use this.

1046
01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:24,440
You can use the camera for now
but next time.

1047
01:07:25,140 --> 01:07:27,140
Next time, no.
I would love to talk to you

1048
01:07:27,140 --> 01:07:29,660
again.
This is this has been for me a

1049
01:07:29,660 --> 01:07:31,180
very enjoyable conversation.