Philip Goff: Is Everything Conscious? Panpsychism & The Purpose Of The Universe

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Philip, I want to frame this
conversation the same way I did

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with Keith.
I even did this with Helen,

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actually.
Her idealist view.

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Keith's Illusionism, and not
With You and Panpsychism.

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But before we get into that, the
question I asked them, which is

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what I'm about to ask you, is
can you give me a philosophical

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history of the mind body
problem, how you conceptualize

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this, how you started reading
about this topic and how you got

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to where you are today?
The reason why I asked this

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question is I believe it allows
us to understand your views and

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how it's changed over the years
and how you sort of came to the

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view you have today or the
conclusion you have today.

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So if you had to give me that
philosophical history, what

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would it be?
Thanks.

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That's that's a great first
question.

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Yeah, I mean the the mind body
problem has been wrestled with

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for centuries.
And I think it arises because

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there are two things we know
about in very different ways.

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There's the physical world
around us that we know through

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our senses and which we learn
more about through scientific

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investigation.
But.

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There's also the world of our of
our own experiences, our

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thoughts, our feelings, which we
know about in a quite different

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way, I think.
I don't.

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I can't look inside your head
and see your feelings and

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experiences.
Each of us knows about our own

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experiences just through being
directly aware of them.

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If you're if you're in pain.
You're just directly aware of

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your of your own feeling of
pain.

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So there are these two things
that we think are real, namely

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the physical world.
We know through the senses and

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our own minds we know through
our immediate awareness of our

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own conscious experience and the
challenges.

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How do these fit together?
How?

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How?
How do they, seemingly very

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different things, fit into a
single unified theory of

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reality?
I mean, suddenly nowadays people

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call it the hard problem of
consciousness, think and think

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of it as the mischief.
How do brains make

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consciousness?
I mean, that's one way into it,

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I suppose.
I think maybe that way of

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setting it up might limit our
options somewhat, but I think

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more generally that's the
question.

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How does consciousness in the
physical world?

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Fit together and it's yeah it's
a problem I've been obsessed

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with as long as I can remember
really because it all of the

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available options seem to have
such deep challenges associated

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with them.
So it's sometimes say it's a

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little bit like Churchill fame
we said about demo famously said

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about democracy.
It's the worst theory of

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government apart from all the
others.

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You know, so I sometimes think
that's what it's like trying to

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find a solution to the mind body
problem, you sort of trying to

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find the least worst option.
But yeah, that's that's the the

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core of it, I think.
So if you had to look back at

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the philosophers, the scientists
perhaps who influenced your

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views the most leading up to
this point, who stands out for

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you?
Who were those people who

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actively changed the way you
perceived this problem?

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I think Descartes has to be a
huge and.

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Influence Going back to studying
Descartes at high school, Mr.

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Foley was my philosophy teacher.
I didn't do that well actually.

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I always keep mean to go back
and visit him one day.

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But I mean what I think
Descartes got dead right is that

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the mind is better known that
than the body and the external

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world.
This is what we find in the

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first two meditations.
Descartes famous work is set up.

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As six Meditations, where the
narrator is sort of

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philosophizing to himself or
herself, I suppose himself.

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If it's Descartes and the the
method is to try and doubt

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everything that we can doubt to
to see where we end up, to see

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what, if anything, can't be
doubted.

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And the narrator, namely
Descartes, concludes that.

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The body, the brain, the
physical world, all these things

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might not exist for all we know
for sure, but the one thing we

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can't doubt is the reality of
one's own conscious mind.

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So I mean, again, just to come
to a vivid case of if you're in

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pain, it's you can't really
doubt the reality of your agony

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because you're sort of directly
in touch with it in a way that

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makes its.
Reality totally evident to you.

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So I so I think Descartes was
right about that.

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After those meditations, it goes
a bit sketchy, sort of tries to

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prove the existence of God and
then prove the existence of

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everything else on that basis.
It goes a bit awry there, I

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think.
But I mean in more recent times,

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the philosopher David Chalmers
was was a huge influence on me.

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You know, when I studied
philosophy, we were taught.

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The two traditional options
dualism.

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Descartes view that the the mind
is separate from the body or the

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brain.
At the other extreme,

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materialism, the view that all
that really exists so is the the

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physical world, bodies, brains,
physical processes in the brain.

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And I became I came to find Deep
for most of those traditional

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options, but we were just taught
that's what you got to choose

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from, like in a lumpet.
And I got really disillusioned

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and I actually left.
My first degree, just wanting to

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stop thinking about
consciousness, thinking there

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was no resolution.
That's actually what I I argued

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for in my end of degree
dissertation.

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But I later discovered the
writings of of of David Charmers

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who who really brought back to
life.

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I guess something like the
Cartesian project.

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Also Thomas Nagle his famous
paper What's it Like to be a

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Bat?
Where he argues that.

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No matter how much we learn
about the neurophysiology of a

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bat, we'll never fully
understand what it's like to be

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a bat, what it's like to adopt A
bats perspective.

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Galen Strawson actually So.
So I wasn't taught these things

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as as an undergraduate.
And then when I started my MA,

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finally at the university, there
was a professor who thought all

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the same things I did who
adopted this.

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Crazy view known as panpsychism
that that I that I adopt and so

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this was Galen Strawson and he
was a real confidence booster.

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I hadn't met another
professional philosopher who saw

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anything like the kind of views
I was attracted to in the

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philosophy of mind.
So, so he from personal

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interaction he was a very
important influence and later

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also David Chalmers has been an
important mentor as I got to

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know him.
Personally and finally, someone

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who has a very opposed view to
me, David Papineau, who was, who

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is a physicalist with a with a
total opposite view to me, but

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was very kind in guiding me and
and and help him.

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Helping me argue against him and
understand his view and argue

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against him and was really a
model for, I think really set me

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a model for how intellectual
interaction should happen

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through civilized, respectful
disagreement.

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So there's probably more than I
can mention, but that's that's a

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handful of the influences I
think.

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I mean, you mentioned so many
great names there, legends in

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the field.
But something that captures my

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attention is exactly what you
concluded with, is that having

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this discourse and disagreement
actually helps us move forward.

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And I think you and Keith are
doing that wonderfully at the

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moment.
I mean mind chat, the fact that

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you guys are two such
esoterically different views,

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opposingly different opposites
in a sense.

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I mean to keep consciousness
phenomenal.

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Consciousness is an illusion,
whereas for you consciousness is

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the fundamental basis of
reality.

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So let's go through panpsychism,
let's run through this.

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Give me your definition of
panpsychism, how you see it, how

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you interpret it, and how it's
different perhaps, from other

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views of panpsychists out there
who are perhaps popular in the

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field.
Brilliant.

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I mean just to say on your your
your last point, I, you know,

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I've just always loved to engage
with people with radically

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different views to me just try
and get into their mind and

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think how why, how are they
thinking these crazy sounding

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things.
And I really do think that's a

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really productive thing to do
and something being Keith have

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tried to have aspired to.
Don't always achieve it.

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Sometimes we get a bit annoyed
with each other but yes but

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turning Japan's psychism.
So I mean in our, in our I

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guess.
In our standard way of thinking

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about things, consciousness only
exists in the brains of it

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highly evolved organisms, and so
only exists in a tiny part of

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the universe, and only in very
recent history, at least in

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terms of the cosmic history of
the universe.

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But for the panpsychist,
consciousness pervades the

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physical universe and is a
fundamental feature of it.

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Contemporary panpsychists.
Don't necessarily think that

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literally everything is
conscious.

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Despite the meaning of the word,
pan means everything, psyche

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mind.
So the word literally means

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everything has mind.
But contemporary pan psychist

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tend to think that the the the
basic building blocks of

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reality.
Perhaps fundamental particles

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like electrons and quarks?
Or perhaps universe wide fields?

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Many theoretical physicists tend
to think that fields rather than

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particles of the things that
make up reality.

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But whichever way you go on,
that these basic constituents of

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the physical universe have very
rudimentary forms of subjective

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experience.
So not the very rich,

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complicated experience that you
and I have.

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Not just you and I or the human
beings or their animals, which

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is the result of millions of
years of.

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Evolution at this very.
So the idea will be that that

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that's what evolution does with
consciousness molds very simple

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forms over millions of years
into much more complex forms

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that you or I enjoy.
But the thought was in the

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beginning, as it were, all the
were with these very rudimentary

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forms of experience at the level
of fundamental physics and

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everything else is kind of built
up from the.

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So in essence, you're saying
that, let's say quarks, bosons,

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well, the most fundamental
particles that exist have

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experience in a sense.
It's got some sort of an

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experiential aspect to it, not
necessarily a thinking,

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cognitively engaging sort of
experience, but in an experience

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nonetheless.
This comes down to some sort of

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a qualitative phenomenon.
Absolutely.

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So yeah, it's it's hard because
people all.

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Automatically think of something
like human experience of the

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think of the electron feeling
existential angst or wondering

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if it's Tuesday or something.
But but you know think about, I

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mean as a way into this often
like to go down the spectrum of

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life from very complicated
organisms as we move to simpler

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forms of life.
Mice.

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Bed bugs.
The bed.

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If bed bugs have experience,
it's presumably much more simple

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than than we can conceive of,
and as we move to simpler and

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simpler forms of life, we find
simpler and simpler forms of

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experience.
For the pan psych is this.

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This just continues right down
to the basic building blocks of

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the physical universe.
But you said that an aspect of

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it is experiential and.
I'm not sure how you intended

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that exactly, but that can
almost suggest a sort of

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dualism, like particles have
physical properties like mass

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and charge, and also these
invisible consciousness

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properties.
But that's not actually the the

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the view as it's standardly
defended these days.

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The view is rather that all
there really is at the

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fundamental level of reality is
forms of consciousness and what

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we think of as.
Particles or fields or physical

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properties like mass, spin and
charge are just ways of

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describing these fundamental
forms of consciousness.

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So it's a radically non
dualistic picture of reality.

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It's not mind on the one hand,
matter on the other.

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In some sense all there is is
mind, and what we call matter is

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just a way of describing these.
Fundamental forms of

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consciousness.
It did not intend for for it to

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have that dualistic aspect.
But so in essence what you're

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actually saying is that the
charge, the the movement of the

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particle, these are the things
it's doing.

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It's not what it is.
Fun.

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That's that's the basic
difference here.

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These are merely the way in
which it's behaving.

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But it's not.
It doesn't explain what it

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actually is.
Yes, and this is the reason

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panpsychism, after being laughed
at for so long and so far as it

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00:14:00,150 --> 00:14:02,150
was, thought about at all, I
think for a long time there was

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00:14:02,150 --> 00:14:06,830
maybe just this guy, Timothy
Sprig in Edinburgh, who defended

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00:14:06,830 --> 00:14:10,950
panpsychism like early in my
undergraduate career.

233
00:14:10,950 --> 00:14:16,430
I went to a conference they had
just after he died to to to to

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00:14:16,430 --> 00:14:17,550
remember him.
That was my.

235
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One of my first conferences, but
it's recently again come to come

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00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,360
to attention largely through the
rediscovery of really important

237
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,160
work by Bertrand Russell from
the 1930s.

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00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:36,000
And very much as you said that
Heaven, Russell's starting point

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00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:43,400
observation was that for all its
virtues and wonders, physics is

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00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,280
confined to telling us about
what stuff does.

241
00:14:46,590 --> 00:14:49,350
Physics tells you what an
electron does, what a quark

242
00:14:49,350 --> 00:14:54,110
does, how fear.
It gives us detailed equations

243
00:14:54,110 --> 00:14:58,670
to predict how fields are going
to evolve over time, and that's

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00:14:58,990 --> 00:15:04,190
really useful information and
allows us to manipulate the

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00:15:04,190 --> 00:15:07,590
world in extraordinary ways and
build incredible technology.

246
00:15:08,270 --> 00:15:10,910
But as a you know, as a
philosopher interested in the

247
00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:16,070
ultimate nature of reality, you
might want to know, OK.

248
00:15:16,460 --> 00:15:19,380
That's interesting, very
interesting when an electron

249
00:15:19,380 --> 00:15:21,700
does.
But I'm also curious about what

250
00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:26,780
an electron is.
And about that Physics, as it

251
00:15:26,780 --> 00:15:29,300
were, isn't really interested.
It's just interested in the

252
00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:32,180
behavior.
So there's a kind of a hole in

253
00:15:32,180 --> 00:15:34,940
our scientific story of reality
there.

254
00:15:34,940 --> 00:15:37,300
And then Russell's observation
as well.

255
00:15:38,460 --> 00:15:40,100
We're looking for this.
We're looking for a place for

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00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:42,460
consciousness.
This mind body problem we

257
00:15:42,460 --> 00:15:43,860
started with.
How the hell do we fit

258
00:15:43,860 --> 00:15:47,550
consciousness?
Into our scientific story, we've

259
00:15:47,550 --> 00:15:50,790
got this big hole.
Maybe we can stick consciousness

260
00:15:50,790 --> 00:15:53,870
in the hole.
So I sometimes put it by saying,

261
00:15:54,350 --> 00:15:56,990
on this view, matter is what
consciousness does.

262
00:15:57,550 --> 00:16:01,710
So there's just conscious.
There's just very simple forms

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00:16:01,710 --> 00:16:06,390
of consciousness interacting in
simple, predictable ways.

264
00:16:07,150 --> 00:16:11,230
And what physics does is give us
equations to?

265
00:16:12,250 --> 00:16:18,010
Describe how that stuff behaves.
So in this way physics emerges

266
00:16:18,330 --> 00:16:21,130
from underlying facts about
consciousness, so typically

267
00:16:21,370 --> 00:16:23,130
people try and do it the other
way around.

268
00:16:23,130 --> 00:16:28,130
They can start with physics, or
physical science more generally

269
00:16:28,130 --> 00:16:31,090
neuroscience, and try and work
out how you get consciousness

270
00:16:31,090 --> 00:16:33,850
out of that.
I think that's impossible,

271
00:16:33,850 --> 00:16:37,410
incoherent even, for reasons we
could perhaps discuss, but

272
00:16:37,410 --> 00:16:39,450
actually it turns out to be
pretty easy to do it the other

273
00:16:39,450 --> 00:16:43,270
way around.
To to start with some facts

274
00:16:43,270 --> 00:16:46,870
about very simple forms of
consciousness and get physics

275
00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:48,870
out of that.
And that's very easy because

276
00:16:48,910 --> 00:16:51,110
physics is just purely
mathematical.

277
00:16:51,310 --> 00:16:53,590
So as long as you've got, it's
just about, you know, patterns

278
00:16:53,590 --> 00:16:55,510
really.
So as long as you've got some

279
00:16:55,510 --> 00:16:59,430
kind of stuff, whatever it is,
interacting in the right way to

280
00:16:59,430 --> 00:17:01,750
get the right patterns, you've
got physics.

281
00:17:02,270 --> 00:17:03,750
Yeah.
And I think something we often

282
00:17:03,750 --> 00:17:10,060
don't well, most physicalists
don't comprehend and think about

283
00:17:10,060 --> 00:17:14,740
more than they should is that we
even speak about the fact that

284
00:17:14,740 --> 00:17:18,460
physics claims that 95% of the
universe is inexplicable.

285
00:17:18,460 --> 00:17:20,020
It's not.
It's something we don't know

286
00:17:20,020 --> 00:17:23,260
anything about.
So physics is so thoroughly

287
00:17:23,260 --> 00:17:26,140
incomplete that it's it's you
shouldn't.

288
00:17:26,140 --> 00:17:29,260
It's like almost a clue that you
should not be a physicalist,

289
00:17:29,540 --> 00:17:32,380
because we in essence understand
almost nothing about the

290
00:17:32,380 --> 00:17:36,120
universe.
Yeah, that's a good point as

291
00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:37,800
well.
I mean, well, one thing I said,

292
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,840
I guess they could go a few
different ways if.

293
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,160
I mean, if you're talking about
dark matter, I suppose that's

294
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,520
distinct, as I understand at
least from the matter that makes

295
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,560
up our bodies and brains.
So someone like Sean Carroll,

296
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:56,160
who I've argued with a a great
deal, thinks, Oh yeah, physics

297
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,400
is far from complete, but in
terms of the matter in our

298
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:04,210
bodies and brains.
In normal terrestrial

299
00:18:04,210 --> 00:18:08,650
conditions, so not in very high
energy or the kind of high

300
00:18:08,650 --> 00:18:11,170
gravity when you're about to
step into a black hole, he

301
00:18:11,170 --> 00:18:13,850
thinks you know in those
conditions it's it's very well

302
00:18:13,850 --> 00:18:19,650
understood and he uses this as
as as an argument against the

303
00:18:19,650 --> 00:18:23,850
kind of you I adopt where
consciousness is a is a is a

304
00:18:23,850 --> 00:18:26,810
fundamental feature of reality.
But there are, I mean there are

305
00:18:26,810 --> 00:18:31,570
two problems with that.
I mean one is that although,

306
00:18:31,570 --> 00:18:35,630
although.
We, although we do have some

307
00:18:35,630 --> 00:18:42,270
kind of consensus about about
physics at those energy levels,

308
00:18:42,270 --> 00:18:46,830
the kind of experiments we use
to support our theories in that

309
00:18:46,870 --> 00:18:50,270
in that region, as as Sean
Carroll agrees, are all

310
00:18:50,430 --> 00:18:52,870
conducted with very small
numbers of particles.

311
00:18:52,870 --> 00:18:54,630
You know, for example in
particle colliders.

312
00:18:55,710 --> 00:18:59,870
We just have no idea.
I would argue whether.

313
00:19:00,270 --> 00:19:03,590
The equations would look exactly
the same in incredibly complex

314
00:19:03,590 --> 00:19:09,590
systems like like living brains,
you know, one of the most, you

315
00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:12,670
know, with 85 billion neurons,
you know, we've never done any

316
00:19:12,670 --> 00:19:15,390
experiments to test that.
I feel, I think it's a kind of

317
00:19:16,670 --> 00:19:20,310
zeitgeist at the moment that
people assume some kind of very

318
00:19:20,310 --> 00:19:24,860
reduction story, but.
Given that our physics is based

319
00:19:24,860 --> 00:19:28,060
on experiments with small
numbers of particles, I think we

320
00:19:28,060 --> 00:19:30,980
really just based on the
experiments ought to be quite

321
00:19:30,980 --> 00:19:33,140
agnostic about that.
But of course the more

322
00:19:33,140 --> 00:19:39,060
fundamental reason is okay, even
if even if Sean Caro right, for

323
00:19:39,060 --> 00:19:42,700
example, that with that we do
understand the physics of the

324
00:19:42,700 --> 00:19:46,580
matter in our bodies and brains,
that's only telling us what

325
00:19:46,580 --> 00:19:51,100
matter does, not what it is.
So so even in even in that case.

326
00:19:52,010 --> 00:19:56,930
This, that there's still the
option of the pan psychist

327
00:19:56,930 --> 00:19:59,130
hypothesis.
Of course, you'd have to look at

328
00:19:59,130 --> 00:20:00,930
what you know, what are the
reasons for accepting that

329
00:20:00,930 --> 00:20:07,690
hypothesis.
But I I don't think really what

330
00:20:07,690 --> 00:20:10,050
we currently know about the
scientific world, the physical

331
00:20:10,050 --> 00:20:14,490
world, scientifically, casts any
doubt on that story.

332
00:20:14,770 --> 00:20:17,930
Yes.
I mean when people talk about

333
00:20:17,930 --> 00:20:20,730
pan psychism, a lot of people
sort of say it as if it's some

334
00:20:21,570 --> 00:20:24,490
spiritual claim because it was
often associated with

335
00:20:24,490 --> 00:20:26,810
spirituality.
A lot of people who meditate,

336
00:20:26,810 --> 00:20:31,890
for example, people perhaps in
Eastern traditions, they they've

337
00:20:31,890 --> 00:20:33,810
made this claim before many
years ago.

338
00:20:33,810 --> 00:20:36,770
So for thousands of years many
people have been saying, I mean

339
00:20:36,770 --> 00:20:38,490
this entire universe is
conscious.

340
00:20:38,730 --> 00:20:44,410
If someone has a an LSD trip or
an acid trip that they start to

341
00:20:44,410 --> 00:20:47,530
see things in a way as if the
universe is sort of palpating or

342
00:20:48,330 --> 00:20:52,460
has a heartbeat or sort of some
sort of a living system.

343
00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:54,900
So this has always been part of
the conversation.

344
00:20:55,140 --> 00:20:57,580
But yet when people talk about
panpsychism, a lot of

345
00:20:57,580 --> 00:21:01,700
physicalist, reductionist have
this They look down upon these

346
00:21:01,700 --> 00:21:03,980
people as if they have
absolutely no idea what they're

347
00:21:03,980 --> 00:21:05,820
talking about.
What do you think they most

348
00:21:06,140 --> 00:21:10,660
misinterpret about this?
In terms so, in terms of the

349
00:21:10,660 --> 00:21:14,060
connection to spirituality, I
always say two things.

350
00:21:14,580 --> 00:21:18,660
Firstly, that there is no
necessary connection with

351
00:21:18,660 --> 00:21:20,940
panpsychism and anything
spiritual.

352
00:21:21,490 --> 00:21:26,290
Many of the contemporary
proponents, like Angela Mendo

353
00:21:26,290 --> 00:21:29,810
Levici or Luke Rolos or indeed
David Charmers, who's

354
00:21:29,810 --> 00:21:34,010
sympathetic to pan psychism,
these people are the most, you

355
00:21:34,010 --> 00:21:41,730
know, atheistic, secular,
reductionist.

356
00:21:41,730 --> 00:21:45,050
But they reject the coherence of
a materialist, that kind of

357
00:21:45,050 --> 00:21:47,410
consciousness.
And they think consciousness

358
00:21:47,450 --> 00:21:49,810
obviously exists.
So they don't believe in any

359
00:21:49,810 --> 00:21:54,460
sort of transcendent.
Realm, they just believe in pain

360
00:21:54,460 --> 00:21:56,460
and seeing red and think you
know, look, we need an

361
00:21:56,460 --> 00:22:00,140
explanation of that in.
In many ways I think this pops a

362
00:22:02,180 --> 00:22:05,980
a division in the pan psychist
contemporary community between

363
00:22:06,620 --> 00:22:10,820
people who are more secular and
people who are more open to

364
00:22:11,020 --> 00:22:13,140
spiritual ideas.
A little bit like maybe you had

365
00:22:13,140 --> 00:22:16,020
in the psychoanalytic community
between Freud and young.

366
00:22:16,020 --> 00:22:19,140
You know, Young was very open to
spiritual.

367
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,600
Convictions.
Whereas Freud is like this is

368
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,400
supposed to be science.
Get all this mumbo jumbo out of

369
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,040
my face.
But anyway, so so firstly,

370
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:34,440
there's no necessary connection,
but if for independent reasons,

371
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,040
perhaps, as you say, on the
basis of mystical experiences,

372
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,000
maybe up through meditation, or
maybe through psychedelics or

373
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,720
whatever, you independently have
certain spiritual convictions

374
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,080
then.
Probably a pun psychist

375
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,720
worldview would be more
consonant with those

376
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,840
convictions.
So you know, if you have the

377
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,920
kind of mystical experience you
just described, whether it seems

378
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,400
to you that reality is filled
with consciousness, well, if

379
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,960
you're pun psychist, you already
think so.

380
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,600
You know there's.
Whereas if you're a materialist

381
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,360
and you just think at the basic
level of reality, it's just it's

382
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:13,960
just what you get from physics
then.

383
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,240
It looks like you have to think
the mystical experience of that

384
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,160
kind is sort of delusion of some
kind.

385
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,000
You don't have to think that.
Of course, it's a further deep

386
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,560
philosophical question.
Even so whether it is rational

387
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,760
to trust mystical experiences.
I mean, on that score I I am

388
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:37,600
somewhat persuaded by the the
argument of William James in his

389
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,560
chapter on mystical experiences
in his great book The Varieties

390
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,760
of Religious Experience.
Most of this is a.

391
00:23:46,030 --> 00:23:48,870
A psychological study of
mystical experiences as I just

392
00:23:48,870 --> 00:23:51,870
as a psychological kind.
But at the end he says, you

393
00:23:51,870 --> 00:23:55,150
know, would it be rational for
the someone having that kind of

394
00:23:55,150 --> 00:23:57,950
experience to trust it?
And he says, well, look, if we

395
00:23:57,950 --> 00:24:03,390
say it's okay to trust our
ordinary empirical experiences,

396
00:24:03,390 --> 00:24:04,710
you know, there's a table in
front of me.

397
00:24:05,950 --> 00:24:10,750
But it's not okay to trust the
Mystic to trust her apparent

398
00:24:10,750 --> 00:24:14,180
mystical experiences.
Then there seems to be a double

399
00:24:14,180 --> 00:24:16,260
standard there.
You know yes a mystical

400
00:24:16,260 --> 00:24:19,020
experience could be a delusion
could be just something funny in

401
00:24:19,020 --> 00:24:23,620
the brain but our ordinary
empirical experiences could be a

402
00:24:23,620 --> 00:24:25,660
delusion.
We could be in the matrix right.

403
00:24:26,220 --> 00:24:30,260
This could be a a long dream as
as they can't made a vivid to

404
00:24:30,260 --> 00:24:34,860
us.
So you know, I think all, all

405
00:24:34,860 --> 00:24:38,980
knowledge is is rooted in
trusting experience, trusting

406
00:24:38,980 --> 00:24:43,760
how things seem to be and.
I don't see how.

407
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,480
Why you can say, you know what
the argument would be, that it's

408
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,960
OK to trust empirical
experiences but but not OK to

409
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,760
trust mystical experiences.
What's what's the relevant

410
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:55,760
difference?
Yes.

411
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:57,120
I don't think anyone's ever
answered that.

412
00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,400
Yeah.
I mean, even when you take into

413
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,280
account, I mean certain
physicalists, someone like,

414
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,960
let's say Anil Seth.
I mean the way he describes

415
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,320
reality as a controlled
hallucination.

416
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,740
And yet in a dream, it's sort of
an uncontrolled hallucination.

417
00:25:10,740 --> 00:25:14,780
So, so in a sense, when we're
awake, we're our hallucinations

418
00:25:15,260 --> 00:25:20,020
are more attuned to the reality.
So although I am hallucinating

419
00:25:20,020 --> 00:25:23,220
this experience, the fact that I
do pick up the pen and it does

420
00:25:23,220 --> 00:25:25,580
feel like I'm picking up the pen
means it's a little bit more

421
00:25:25,580 --> 00:25:27,180
control.
But that doesn't change the fact

422
00:25:27,180 --> 00:25:30,900
that I'm hallucinating.
In essence, the the fundamental

423
00:25:31,100 --> 00:25:34,300
nature hasn't changed.
Whether I'm asleep or awake,

424
00:25:34,460 --> 00:25:37,780
they're both still and a
hallucination.

425
00:25:38,170 --> 00:25:40,730
So in what you're saying and
make so much sense.

426
00:25:40,730 --> 00:25:43,570
Because the truth is, whether
it's mystical, whether it's some

427
00:25:43,570 --> 00:25:45,970
sort of a thought or whether
it's reality, they're both still

428
00:25:46,650 --> 00:25:49,050
inexplicably different.
Are they're the same?

429
00:25:50,450 --> 00:25:53,410
Yeah, I mean Anil, Seth, Anil.
Seth's works really, really,

430
00:25:53,570 --> 00:25:57,250
we've debated a lot of times.
Were due to debate again in

431
00:25:57,490 --> 00:26:02,210
November of the Royal Institute
of Philosophy annual debate.

432
00:26:03,570 --> 00:26:08,290
And I'm always saying to him.
I I totally agree with all your

433
00:26:08,290 --> 00:26:12,090
scientific work.
You know, it's but I think the

434
00:26:12,090 --> 00:26:18,170
scientific work on consciousness
just leaves open or or all the

435
00:26:18,170 --> 00:26:21,410
philosophical positions.
You could, you could be a, you

436
00:26:21,410 --> 00:26:26,450
know, Anil as a materialist, but
you could you could have a a a

437
00:26:26,450 --> 00:26:29,050
duelist version of Anil, A
Pansychis version of Anil.

438
00:26:29,050 --> 00:26:32,890
We we've got to distinguish the
the, the philosophical.

439
00:26:33,690 --> 00:26:36,770
Aspects of the problem from the,
from the, from the scientific

440
00:26:37,050 --> 00:26:40,450
aspects.
Some people think, oh, you know,

441
00:26:41,050 --> 00:26:43,890
science is proving materialism,
but but no, it's like

442
00:26:45,810 --> 00:26:49,410
materialism is a philosophical
hypothesis, as is pan psychism,

443
00:26:49,410 --> 00:26:51,570
as in dualism.
And we need to assess all these

444
00:26:51,570 --> 00:26:54,170
on philosophical grounds.
But actually I've digressed

445
00:26:54,170 --> 00:26:56,930
slightly coming back to to your
point, which was an excellent

446
00:26:56,930 --> 00:26:59,410
one, I think.
Yeah, I mean, some philosophers

447
00:26:59,410 --> 00:27:04,170
get a little bit.
Not, not annoyed by the the word

448
00:27:04,170 --> 00:27:06,890
hallucination.
There, it's it sort of seems to

449
00:27:06,890 --> 00:27:10,170
suggest that the external world
is not real in some sense.

450
00:27:10,170 --> 00:27:16,050
But if it just means that our
experiences are in, in our own

451
00:27:16,050 --> 00:27:20,810
minds, in our heads, they don't
put us in direct contact with

452
00:27:20,810 --> 00:27:25,010
the world around us.
We can't get outside of our own

453
00:27:25,010 --> 00:27:28,050
consciousness to see if it
corresponds to reality.

454
00:27:29,530 --> 00:27:30,930
So what do we do?
You just.

455
00:27:32,140 --> 00:27:35,340
All you have direct contact with
is your own conscious

456
00:27:35,340 --> 00:27:37,420
experience.
Right now, you don't.

457
00:27:37,420 --> 00:27:42,420
You don't even know whether you
existed a few seconds ago.

458
00:27:42,420 --> 00:27:45,820
You can only do that by trusting
your memory, which is itself

459
00:27:46,260 --> 00:27:52,220
another kind of seeming, another
kind of experience, you know, Of

460
00:27:52,220 --> 00:27:54,700
course we can.
You know, Then people say, well,

461
00:27:54,700 --> 00:27:56,940
we can.
We can check our memories, we

462
00:27:56,940 --> 00:27:59,740
can check our senses.
We can get precise with science.

463
00:28:00,420 --> 00:28:03,610
But.
Only once you decide to trust

464
00:28:03,610 --> 00:28:07,690
them in the 1st place.
If I don't decide to just trust

465
00:28:08,210 --> 00:28:12,850
without any reason, my senses or
my memory, I can't get out of

466
00:28:12,850 --> 00:28:14,850
the present moment.
I can't do any science.

467
00:28:15,050 --> 00:28:20,010
So although in a sense we can
verify our senses what our sense

468
00:28:20,010 --> 00:28:23,370
of telling us, only that's only
in a kind of circular way once

469
00:28:23,370 --> 00:28:27,010
we've already trusted them.
So it seems to.

470
00:28:27,610 --> 00:28:29,650
Pretty pretty much the same with
a mystical experience.

471
00:28:29,850 --> 00:28:33,970
You can't totally rule out it's
a delusion, but it's the same in

472
00:28:33,970 --> 00:28:36,810
the case of centric experiences.
And if I don't think people who

473
00:28:36,810 --> 00:28:41,330
have mystical experiences claim
that it seems more real than

474
00:28:41,650 --> 00:28:45,650
their ordinary experiences.
So I think I once, I think I

475
00:28:45,650 --> 00:28:51,370
once heard you mentioned the
fact that when someone claims to

476
00:28:51,370 --> 00:28:56,450
have some sort of experience in
whatever way they have it, what

477
00:28:56,450 --> 00:28:59,970
makes that any less true than
anything that they've

478
00:28:59,970 --> 00:29:02,650
experienced otherwise, like in
the normal realm?

479
00:29:02,650 --> 00:29:04,170
I mean, you speak about this
quite often.

480
00:29:04,730 --> 00:29:08,610
I feel that when I first started
out reading about consciousness,

481
00:29:09,610 --> 00:29:13,050
when I first entered the field
from mid school, when I thought

482
00:29:13,050 --> 00:29:14,850
about it, I mean I always wanted
to study this.

483
00:29:14,850 --> 00:29:17,210
I was materialistic all the way
through.

484
00:29:17,850 --> 00:29:19,690
I even wrote an essay, my
dissertation.

485
00:29:19,690 --> 00:29:22,670
Keith read it.
He gave me comments.

486
00:29:23,590 --> 00:29:25,750
It was.
But I defended illusionism as a

487
00:29:25,750 --> 00:29:27,950
theory of consciousness using
psychiatry.

488
00:29:28,670 --> 00:29:29,590
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.

489
00:29:30,030 --> 00:29:35,230
I'm going now.
I'm really joking, but prior to

490
00:29:35,230 --> 00:29:38,190
that I had the emergentism view
of consciousness.

491
00:29:38,550 --> 00:29:40,710
Then I somehow slipped into
illusionism.

492
00:29:41,470 --> 00:29:45,640
Sorry, had the flu last week.
I'm just, I'm slowly recovering

493
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,480
and for everyone who's watching
and every time you see Phillip

494
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,800
looking down, it's because he
screens at the bottom.

495
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,360
So don't he's he's just looking
at me, basically.

496
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,920
He gave him my secrets away.
Some context in case they're

497
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:01,280
wondering.
Is he reading something?

498
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,800
What's going on?
Well, I was turning my emails

499
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:04,200
off.
Actually.

500
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:05,680
That bleaked at one point
anyway.

501
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,760
But anyway, So yeah, as I was
saying when I started out, I

502
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:10,880
started out as someone who
believed in emergentism.

503
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,360
I mean, slowly you work your way
up.

504
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,000
Then I went into Illusionism,
and from starting this podcast

505
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,640
and listening to people's
coherent logical arguments,

506
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,520
philosophical arguments, I mean,
I don't know anymore.

507
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,960
I have absolutely no idea what.
I'm so agnostic at this point

508
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,000
that to me, if anyone approaches
me with some sort of a cogent,

509
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,800
coherent argument, I'm willing
to listen all the way.

510
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,120
And I think that a lot of
scientists per se, because of

511
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:45,090
scientism, just look down on
certain views like and psychism,

512
00:30:46,250 --> 00:30:48,450
idealism.
In fact, we should talk about

513
00:30:48,450 --> 00:30:50,930
those two and how they're
different or similar, because

514
00:30:50,930 --> 00:30:53,530
they both somehow talk about the
consciousness as being

515
00:30:53,530 --> 00:30:55,970
fundamental.
But I think that link, as we

516
00:30:55,970 --> 00:30:59,610
spoke about earlier, between
spirituality and panpsychism is

517
00:30:59,610 --> 00:31:04,850
exactly why scientists or
scientism hinders listening to

518
00:31:04,850 --> 00:31:08,450
this philosophical argument.
Do you agree with that?

519
00:31:08,850 --> 00:31:13,960
I do very much, I mean, I think.
We're going through a strange

520
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:19,960
period of history where people
are understandably totally blown

521
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,120
away by the the success of
physical science and the

522
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,360
wonderful technology it's
produced.

523
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,520
And that has such a visceral
effect on you think, Oh my God,

524
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:33,640
we can put someone on the moon.
We can have these tiny

525
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,880
mechanisms that, you know, just
such incredible technology.

526
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:47,250
But it doesn't follow from that.
That experiments and observation

527
00:31:47,250 --> 00:31:49,570
is the only way of finding out
about reality.

528
00:31:49,730 --> 00:31:52,490
Clearly, experiments and
observation are a very

529
00:31:52,490 --> 00:31:56,050
important, very successful way
of finding out about reality.

530
00:31:56,410 --> 00:31:59,370
But their success does not
entail that there are not other

531
00:31:59,370 --> 00:32:02,810
ways.
And the least controversial way

532
00:32:02,810 --> 00:32:06,650
of finding out about reality,
independently of observation and

533
00:32:06,650 --> 00:32:10,690
experiments, is the reality of
your own feelings and

534
00:32:10,690 --> 00:32:16,050
experiences.
If you if you strictly follow

535
00:32:16,850 --> 00:32:20,810
the kind of methodology of
Daniel Dennett or my good friend

536
00:32:20,810 --> 00:32:24,050
Keith Frankish, and you only
believe in what can be

537
00:32:24,050 --> 00:32:28,690
established on the basis of
observation experiment, then

538
00:32:29,050 --> 00:32:34,610
you're led to disbelief in your
own feelings and experiences.

539
00:32:34,610 --> 00:32:39,930
Or at least you're not allowed
to to believe in.

540
00:32:41,220 --> 00:32:46,500
Anything known on the basis of
introspection, that doesn't also

541
00:32:46,700 --> 00:32:50,100
come from external observation,
right?

542
00:32:50,100 --> 00:32:53,180
So Keith often says, you know, I
believe in consciousness, I

543
00:32:53,180 --> 00:32:54,700
believe in feelings and
experiences.

544
00:32:55,620 --> 00:32:59,100
But when you, you know, when you
dig into that, he totally agrees

545
00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:02,580
with Dennett.
And Dennett says the the data

546
00:33:02,580 --> 00:33:05,180
for science of consciousness, or
what he calls Petro

547
00:33:05,180 --> 00:33:12,370
phenomenology, which is.
Explicitly restricted to what

548
00:33:12,370 --> 00:33:17,010
you can know from the outside,
including reports right when you

549
00:33:17,370 --> 00:33:19,130
when you say something about
your consciousness.

550
00:33:19,130 --> 00:33:24,450
But then it isn't taking that as
testimony about an inner realm

551
00:33:24,450 --> 00:33:28,490
of your inner life.
He's just taking the report as a

552
00:33:28,490 --> 00:33:31,570
physical act that we need to
explain in terms of brain

553
00:33:31,570 --> 00:33:34,690
mechanisms or whatever.
So the only things Dennett

554
00:33:34,690 --> 00:33:38,890
believes in and Keith believes
in are what can be established.

555
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,720
From third person public
observation experiment.

556
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,880
Why I I've never my hours and
hours and hours of talking to

557
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,120
Keith.
Why can't I?

558
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,680
Yes, of course experiments and
observation are very important,

559
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,760
but what about my immediate
awareness and my pain?

560
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,200
Why isn't that another
fundamental way of knowing about

561
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,640
reality?
So I think you know someone like

562
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,010
Keith is is at least consistent.
I think I'm consistent, but I

563
00:34:09,010 --> 00:34:11,330
think most people are in this
confused middle way where they

564
00:34:11,330 --> 00:34:17,050
think that they think of course
my consciousness exists, but

565
00:34:17,050 --> 00:34:19,170
they don't follow through and
realize.

566
00:34:19,850 --> 00:34:25,290
In that case, there's a
fundamental data point here over

567
00:34:25,290 --> 00:34:27,210
and above experiments and
observations.

568
00:34:27,210 --> 00:34:30,489
So you can't just say we can
only find out about reality

569
00:34:30,489 --> 00:34:34,170
through observation experiments,
because no, there's someone else

570
00:34:34,170 --> 00:34:36,719
we need to plug in here.
And so that's the least

571
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,679
controversial example.
But I I think there are other

572
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:43,520
examples like our experience of
value.

573
00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:47,280
You know, our experience of that
human trafficking is abhorrent.

574
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,760
We think there's something
objectively bad about this.

575
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,120
And you could say, well, that's
just our subjective reaction.

576
00:34:56,639 --> 00:35:00,520
Well, it doesn't seem to be why?
Why, If it's okay, I mean,

577
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,630
that's just like saying.
My experience at the table might

578
00:35:05,630 --> 00:35:08,430
be a hallucination.
I might be in the Matrix, I

579
00:35:08,430 --> 00:35:12,350
might be.
But it's rational to trust my

580
00:35:12,350 --> 00:35:16,470
experience of the table, and it
seems to me similarly rational

581
00:35:16,470 --> 00:35:19,270
to trust my my deepest moral
experiences.

582
00:35:20,590 --> 00:35:24,110
So I think there are many
different ways of knowing about

583
00:35:24,110 --> 00:35:26,790
reality.
And the task of the philosopher,

584
00:35:26,990 --> 00:35:30,150
which we've kind of forgotten
about in recent times in my

585
00:35:30,150 --> 00:35:31,430
view, is to put them all
together.

586
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:34,770
It's the job of synthesis.
Take what we know from science,

587
00:35:34,970 --> 00:35:39,730
what we know from our careful
ethical thinking, what we know

588
00:35:39,730 --> 00:35:44,570
about mathematical reality.
Excuse me, the the world of

589
00:35:45,410 --> 00:35:48,690
numbers and logic that necessary
structure reality.

590
00:35:48,690 --> 00:35:51,850
Mathematicians and magicians
tell us about what we know about

591
00:35:51,850 --> 00:35:55,690
our own conscious experience and
synthesize it all together in a

592
00:35:55,690 --> 00:35:58,530
single unified theory of
reality.

593
00:35:58,970 --> 00:36:00,890
So that, you know that's what
I'm most passionate about, is

594
00:36:00,890 --> 00:36:05,220
moving us on from the scientism.
Where we think, no, it's just

595
00:36:05,220 --> 00:36:07,100
you just got it.
All we can really believe in is

596
00:36:07,100 --> 00:36:09,660
what we know from experiments
and everything else has to be

597
00:36:09,660 --> 00:36:12,180
squeezed into that.
And if it can't be, it doesn't

598
00:36:12,180 --> 00:36:16,260
exist because that leads to this
really impoverished picture of

599
00:36:16,260 --> 00:36:20,060
reality.
Where really does the artificial

600
00:36:20,060 --> 00:36:24,580
worldview?
Is doesn't allow for the reality

601
00:36:24,580 --> 00:36:28,700
of consciousness, doesn't allow
for the reality of moral facts

602
00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:31,060
about good and bad and human
dignity?

603
00:36:32,260 --> 00:36:36,460
And I think that's a weird,
unhealthy, difficult way to

604
00:36:36,460 --> 00:36:38,940
live.
I mean, if it was the truth,

605
00:36:38,940 --> 00:36:40,620
it'd be the truth and we'd have
to get used to it.

606
00:36:40,620 --> 00:36:46,660
But once we see that there is no
good reason, philosophically

607
00:36:46,660 --> 00:36:50,780
speaking, not to take seriously
these other these other ways of

608
00:36:50,780 --> 00:36:54,700
knowing about reality, because
all knowledge, including

609
00:36:54,700 --> 00:36:58,500
scientific knowledge, is just
rooted in trusting experience,

610
00:36:58,820 --> 00:37:01,020
then I think we can.
We can.

611
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:07,000
Come to a more expansive
conception of the world we live

612
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,800
in, and one that's a little bit
better for our mental and

613
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,240
spiritual well-being.
I think.

614
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,680
I mean, you pay.
That is a bit long winded and

615
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,680
that's fine.
The the more long winded the

616
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,320
better.
I think the listeners, they want

617
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,200
to hear your views and this is
all about, I mean see it's your

618
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,560
episode, this is about you.
But along all the lines of what

619
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,840
you were talking about, Dennet,
what how would you respond to

620
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,130
something like this?
Cuz Dennet wants said something

621
00:37:30,130 --> 00:37:34,370
about idealism and panpsychism
in in a way describing them sort

622
00:37:34,370 --> 00:37:38,210
of as a modern day version of
the Ian Vittal.

623
00:37:38,210 --> 00:37:41,210
I mean, I mean we're always
looking for something deeper.

624
00:37:41,210 --> 00:37:45,450
We always want that little extra
thing that makes us a little

625
00:37:45,450 --> 00:37:48,970
more special somehow.
And for humans from from it

626
00:37:48,970 --> 00:37:52,650
being life, being at the center
of the universe at some point.

627
00:37:52,650 --> 00:37:56,150
Copernicus ruins that.
Then Darwin takes us off the top

628
00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:57,990
of the food chain, and now we
all we have left is

629
00:37:57,990 --> 00:38:00,350
consciousness.
So we're going to find whatever

630
00:38:00,350 --> 00:38:02,990
way we can to make this the most
important thing.

631
00:38:03,230 --> 00:38:05,550
What do you think about the?
How do you respond to something

632
00:38:05,550 --> 00:38:08,070
like that?
Well, it's an ad hominem

633
00:38:08,070 --> 00:38:11,390
argument, isn't it?
Which means it's it's not in

634
00:38:11,470 --> 00:38:13,550
it's it's not engaging with the
argument.

635
00:38:13,550 --> 00:38:17,150
It's speculating,
psychoanalyzing about the

636
00:38:17,150 --> 00:38:19,630
motivations of the person
defending it.

637
00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:21,910
You know, I think, Well, I
think.

638
00:38:23,150 --> 00:38:28,750
We used to, we're very
culturally used to the idea that

639
00:38:29,350 --> 00:38:34,790
this people who have religious
or spiritual ideas, it's because

640
00:38:34,790 --> 00:38:39,710
they they they can't they can't
face the reality of science or

641
00:38:39,710 --> 00:38:41,470
something that they need to
believe in something.

642
00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:45,470
But actually, for my own case, I
mean, you know, I'm, I'm, I, I,

643
00:38:45,510 --> 00:38:52,560
I I think I'm more subject to.
The the motivations that lie

644
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,600
behind that the Dennet picture,
which are very seductive as

645
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,320
well, you know, it's it's it's
very seductive to have this

646
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,360
simple picture that you know
experiments are giving us the

647
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,680
truth like the kind of Ricky
Gervais story.

648
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,240
You know, listen to Ricky Ray.
I think Ricky Gervais, it's very

649
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:13,720
important to his identity and
his sense of who he is and his

650
00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:18,050
sense of security.
That I think he needs to believe

651
00:39:18,050 --> 00:39:20,970
in this very simple story.
The experiments give us the

652
00:39:20,970 --> 00:39:23,490
answers and we're on the right
side of it.

653
00:39:23,490 --> 00:39:27,130
And these superstitious fools
that they're on.

654
00:39:28,330 --> 00:39:32,050
And I, you know, I think that's
that, that you can psychoanalyze

655
00:39:32,050 --> 00:39:33,650
people's motivations in that
way.

656
00:39:33,650 --> 00:39:38,610
And I mean that's the I I feel
often very silly defending the

657
00:39:38,610 --> 00:39:42,930
views I do because in the kind
of, you know.

658
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,560
Culture that I was grew up in
and that I hang around in it,

659
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:55,360
these things are don't fit in
and and so you know, if I need

660
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,240
to be, I need to constantly
analyze why I'm thinking what

661
00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:03,640
I'm thinking and I'm constantly
critiquing my arguments.

662
00:40:04,010 --> 00:40:06,570
But I'm actually, I actually
think I need to be more on guard

663
00:40:06,570 --> 00:40:10,410
about the seductions of of
scientists than the seductions

664
00:40:10,410 --> 00:40:12,850
of some need to believe I'm
special or something.

665
00:40:14,330 --> 00:40:17,410
You know, look all, I mean all
the end of the day one can only

666
00:40:17,410 --> 00:40:20,810
speak for oneself that I, you
know, I'm sure I do have

667
00:40:21,250 --> 00:40:24,450
motivations but fundamental in
lots of ways.

668
00:40:24,450 --> 00:40:27,530
But fundamentally I I I've
always just really wanted to

669
00:40:27,530 --> 00:40:29,570
know what's true.
That's just been my job.

670
00:40:29,570 --> 00:40:34,000
I want to know the answers here
and and you know I've changed

671
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,800
your mind a lot.
I I I constantly sort of talking

672
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,800
to myself in my head trying to
find the best argument because I

673
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:47,470
want to know is this right?
Is this I just wanna know the

674
00:40:47,470 --> 00:40:47,990
truth?
So.

675
00:40:47,990 --> 00:40:50,910
And then if Dennett says he
doesn't believe me, then what

676
00:40:50,910 --> 00:40:52,430
can you do?
But at the end of the day, we

677
00:40:52,430 --> 00:40:54,110
should just engage with the
arguments.

678
00:40:54,150 --> 00:40:56,350
And yeah, I mean try and see
what they need.

679
00:40:57,110 --> 00:40:59,990
I mean hatred phenomenology as
you say, I mean, Keith calls it

680
00:40:59,990 --> 00:41:05,110
Quasar, phenomenal experiences.
So there's sort of.

681
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,680
Implicit that it's implicit that
it's existing, but it's just not

682
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,360
what we think it is to these, to
to these thinkers, it's it's

683
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,800
almost it is there.
It's just how we interpret it

684
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:17,840
that's different and a bit
misleading.

685
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,240
So that that doesn't sound too
radical, does it?

686
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,320
You know when you say, oh,
consciousness is just different

687
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,320
to how we think of it.
What you've got to know about

688
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,080
Keith and that it's position I
should be he's probably gonna be

689
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,240
listen you might listen to this
funny is just come back to this

690
00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:35,580
point.
The hetero phenomenology idea

691
00:41:35,580 --> 00:41:40,860
that the only data for a science
of consciousness all what you

692
00:41:40,860 --> 00:41:43,500
can know from the outside.
Right.

693
00:41:43,780 --> 00:41:46,860
That is the only things we can
take seriously.

694
00:41:47,900 --> 00:41:51,300
So again, you know that includes
what people say, but it's not

695
00:41:51,300 --> 00:41:52,860
what they say because then you
can.

696
00:41:52,860 --> 00:41:56,260
I think, I think most people
when they when they, you know,

697
00:41:56,260 --> 00:41:58,380
when they trust what someone
says that they're in pain, their

698
00:41:58,380 --> 00:42:02,770
trust, they're taking that as
testimony and evidence about

699
00:42:02,770 --> 00:42:06,490
what can't be seen.
Like I can't see your pain, but

700
00:42:06,490 --> 00:42:09,090
you tell me about it and I
thereby indirectly know.

701
00:42:09,090 --> 00:42:10,730
But that's not how Keith sees
it, right.

702
00:42:11,010 --> 00:42:16,530
He sees the report, the act of
physical act of your mouth

703
00:42:16,610 --> 00:42:21,490
moving as the datum.
It is the person, objective,

704
00:42:21,730 --> 00:42:24,610
quantitative experience.
That's everything.

705
00:42:24,610 --> 00:42:27,010
That's all that.
Exists right person, subjective,

706
00:42:27,010 --> 00:42:30,400
qualitative.
Experience, which to you is the

707
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,560
fundamental experience and to
Keith is the complete opposite.

708
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:36,720
Yeah.
I mean, well, it's both isn't.

709
00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:41,560
I mean, of course I agree with
Keith that that we, of course we

710
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,960
would deny that we do know a lot
from the outside and that's part

711
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,400
of the data.
But I've just, I've never seen a

712
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,320
good argument from Keith about
why I can't just take it as a

713
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,480
starting point.
Introspect My feeling.

714
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,320
And, you know, Dennet's.
Dennet's noticed.

715
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,600
You know, Dennet's got
fascinating arguments about how

716
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,400
introspection can lead as a
stray.

717
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,680
Eric Schwitzkable, one of my
favorite philosophers who's a

718
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,840
materialist, has got some great
stuff on that.

719
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,760
But OK, introspection makes some
mistakes.

720
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,280
Doesn't mean the whole story's
wrong.

721
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:19,120
Like, you know that.
Eric can Subjective qualities we

722
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,320
seem to experience.
They're just not real at all.

723
00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:29,430
So, so the the, yeah, the, the
challenge is I I think the more

724
00:43:29,430 --> 00:43:34,110
conventional physicalist picture
you refer to any of the

725
00:43:34,110 --> 00:43:40,070
emergentist picture that they
they wanna try and reduce or

726
00:43:40,510 --> 00:43:42,230
account for.
They say Oh yeah, we believe in

727
00:43:42,230 --> 00:43:45,150
subjective experience, we want
to account for it.

728
00:43:45,150 --> 00:43:50,110
In terms of the purely third
person quantitative science, I

729
00:43:50,110 --> 00:43:52,270
think Keith and I both agree
that just doesn't make any

730
00:43:52,270 --> 00:43:53,310
sense.
That's just think.

731
00:43:53,390 --> 00:43:57,180
You can't even, you know you
can't even articulate these

732
00:43:57,300 --> 00:44:00,500
subjective, private qualities
like the redness of a red

733
00:44:00,500 --> 00:44:02,620
experience in the language of
physical science.

734
00:44:02,620 --> 00:44:06,660
So you know your neuroscientific
theory couldn't even articulate

735
00:44:06,660 --> 00:44:09,060
the data, so it's not going to
be able to explain it if it

736
00:44:09,060 --> 00:44:12,220
can't even articulate it.
So we both agree that doesn't

737
00:44:12,220 --> 00:44:16,140
make sense.
But he thinks, well just believe

738
00:44:16,140 --> 00:44:18,300
in this stuff you know about
through the third person way and

739
00:44:18,300 --> 00:44:22,740
if you can sort of translate
your talk of consciousness into

740
00:44:24,610 --> 00:44:27,250
the stuff you know about in
third person terms and OK,

741
00:44:27,290 --> 00:44:29,850
that's fine.
But you're only allowed to do

742
00:44:29,850 --> 00:44:30,610
that.
Why?

743
00:44:30,730 --> 00:44:34,090
Why?
It's just I think it's just over

744
00:44:34,090 --> 00:44:37,450
enthusiasm with with science.
But you mentioned Eric

745
00:44:37,450 --> 00:44:38,730
Schwitzka, I think I didn't talk
to do that.

746
00:44:38,770 --> 00:44:39,610
Yeah, sorry.
No, we.

747
00:44:39,610 --> 00:44:41,410
I mean, Eric and I also chatted
about it.

748
00:44:42,290 --> 00:44:45,050
Brilliant.
He is very skeptical.

749
00:44:45,050 --> 00:44:47,730
I mean, he's got that skeptical
mindset that leads him to think

750
00:44:47,730 --> 00:44:49,810
of so many creative different
ways.

751
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,520
That you can interpret reality
and the way we live.

752
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,080
I mean, some of his philosophy
of science fiction is very

753
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,000
intriguing, very diverse
writing.

754
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,160
And I think that only happens
when you are sort of someone who

755
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,400
can think metaphysically about
things without necessarily

756
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,840
having a religious or spiritual
view on it.

757
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,840
There was almost no dogma
towards it.

758
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,800
You're just naturally skeptical.
Keith and I actually had a three

759
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,440
hour conversation about
illusionism.

760
00:45:17,860 --> 00:45:21,620
Went to The ethics of it All.
It was quite a long chat, but I

761
00:45:21,620 --> 00:45:25,180
just spoke I think about three
days ago to Helen, yet to

762
00:45:25,460 --> 00:45:27,420
Chappelle is am I saying the
surname correctly?

763
00:45:27,860 --> 00:45:31,140
But.
We spoke about idealism and your

764
00:45:31,140 --> 00:45:34,540
view panpsychist.
The panpsychist and the idealist

765
00:45:34,540 --> 00:45:38,100
view sort of overlap in certain
ways to some people, and to some

766
00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:39,980
people they believe it's
completely different.

767
00:45:40,220 --> 00:45:42,980
How would you differentiate
between these two views?

768
00:45:43,140 --> 00:45:45,180
I mean, there's a lot of new
people out there, but now the

769
00:45:45,180 --> 00:45:48,460
Castro is Donald Hoffman with
conscious realism.

770
00:45:48,460 --> 00:45:52,420
Slash idealism in a sense,
because he is taking

771
00:45:52,420 --> 00:45:55,780
consciousness to be fundamental.
How do you differentiate your

772
00:45:55,780 --> 00:45:58,430
views?
Good.

773
00:45:58,430 --> 00:46:02,950
Yeah, it's a good question
obviously to start off with.

774
00:46:02,990 --> 00:46:07,910
Obviously, I mean I think of all
of these views is very much on

775
00:46:07,910 --> 00:46:11,270
the same side of the debate and
close in all sorts of ways.

776
00:46:11,270 --> 00:46:16,870
It's just wonderful that from
both science and philosophy

777
00:46:16,990 --> 00:46:20,110
people are really exploring
these ideas that start off with

778
00:46:20,310 --> 00:46:24,390
with consciousness and build up
on on that basis instead of

779
00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:28,420
starting up with matter, getting
to consciousness, starting off

780
00:46:28,420 --> 00:46:32,340
with consciousness itself.
So you know it's great all these

781
00:46:32,340 --> 00:46:37,380
views on the table, it's people
define terms in different ways.

782
00:46:37,380 --> 00:46:43,700
The way I tend to think about it
is that the pun psychist,

783
00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:47,180
although they think
consciousness is fundamental,

784
00:46:47,580 --> 00:46:52,220
they also think the physical
world is fundamental, but

785
00:46:52,220 --> 00:46:56,070
without being duelist.
Because how do you square that

786
00:46:56,070 --> 00:46:58,110
circle?
Well, the physical world is just

787
00:46:58,110 --> 00:47:02,550
somehow made-up of consciousness
or infused with consciousness.

788
00:47:02,870 --> 00:47:08,230
Whereas the idealist, I think,
tends to think there's something

789
00:47:08,230 --> 00:47:10,430
more fundamental than the
physical world.

790
00:47:10,430 --> 00:47:14,590
Either the physical world is
some kind of illusion or there's

791
00:47:14,590 --> 00:47:18,630
some deeper reality underlying
the physical world.

792
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,120
So I think Bernardo and and
Donald Hoffman fit into that

793
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:26,360
camp.
It's a little bit difficult with

794
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:32,200
Helen actually she's But but
have you is is inspired by

795
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:40,520
George Barkley, the great 18th
century idealist who yeah,

796
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,440
thought of the the physical
world is real, but it's it's

797
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,320
it's not fundamental.
Tables and chairs and mountains

798
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,390
and so on are constructions out
of ideas at the fundamental

799
00:47:49,390 --> 00:47:50,990
level of reality.
We've just got kind of

800
00:47:51,270 --> 00:47:54,990
immaterial minds and the
physical world is constructed

801
00:47:54,990 --> 00:47:58,710
out of ideas in those minds.
And she sort of it's God from

802
00:47:58,710 --> 00:48:00,950
that picture.
So to her, it's the ideal, the

803
00:48:00,950 --> 00:48:04,270
Berkeley and idea Idealism
without God.

804
00:48:05,590 --> 00:48:10,710
Yeah, so.
So then God was central to

805
00:48:11,590 --> 00:48:13,830
Barclay's picture because it's a
question, well, what happens to

806
00:48:13,830 --> 00:48:15,430
a table when we're not looking
at it?

807
00:48:15,750 --> 00:48:18,030
And Barclay's ideas, Well, God's
looking at it.

808
00:48:18,750 --> 00:48:22,110
And then Helen's idea, building
on that was, well, why does it

809
00:48:22,110 --> 00:48:26,070
have to?
Why does this cosmic mind, or

810
00:48:26,070 --> 00:48:29,230
whatever it is, have to have all
the attributes of God?

811
00:48:29,230 --> 00:48:31,750
Why does it have to be all
powerful?

812
00:48:31,750 --> 00:48:33,310
Why?
Why does it even have to be a

813
00:48:33,310 --> 00:48:38,870
sort of thinking agent in order
to sort of experience the table

814
00:48:38,870 --> 00:48:42,240
when no one's looking at it.
So she said think of it, thinks

815
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:45,480
of it as a sort of tapestry of
experience.

816
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,200
Lots of threads of experience.
So but if we I think the problem

817
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,960
is I think she she problem in
terms of distinguishing heavy

818
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,440
pan psychism, is she?
I think she wants to maybe.

819
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,280
Does she want to identify that
tapestry with the physical

820
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,520
world?
Yeah, and then I'm not clear.

821
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:06,640
What?
Helen is idealist in the way she

822
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,400
thinks.
There's almost She's just

823
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,520
defending a sort of idea within
idealism without actively

824
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,080
calling herself an idealist,
right?

825
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,960
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good
point.

826
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:27,920
And and but why that view that
she explores should counters

827
00:49:28,720 --> 00:49:30,520
idealism rather than pan
psychism.

828
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,760
I'm not totally sure actually.
But because it's.

829
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:35,520
After having such a long
conversation.

830
00:49:36,500 --> 00:49:42,780
I'm still highly sure, yeah
because it's not it doesn't fit

831
00:49:42,780 --> 00:49:44,980
the most standard understanding
of idealism where there's

832
00:49:44,980 --> 00:49:51,020
something underlying the
physical world and and that's I

833
00:49:51,020 --> 00:49:54,380
mean that's the the the the
argument I have with Donald

834
00:49:54,380 --> 00:49:58,260
Hoffman.
I'm not sure the motivate.

835
00:49:58,260 --> 00:50:01,660
I never understand the
motivation for thinking this

836
00:50:01,660 --> 00:50:08,200
something deeper than the
physical world, you know.

837
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,320
So in a way you can think of
panpsychism as a sort of middle

838
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,480
way between materialism and
idealism.

839
00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:17,080
So this for the panpsychist, you
know in some sense it's just the

840
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,440
physical world particles and
fields.

841
00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:22,600
But that's filled out with
consciousness.

842
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,480
And I I don't see why we we want
a place for consciousness.

843
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,600
Why can't we put it as it were
inside the mathematical

844
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,360
structures of physics.
Why do we have to put it at A at

845
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,800
a deeper level than that?
I've never really understood the

846
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,800
motivation.
Sorry this is gonna digress, but

847
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,880
it's gonna go back to something
you mentioned earlier, which

848
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,880
was, I mean values, inherent
morals and ethics and how these

849
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,400
all play a role.
I would like to ask what about

850
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,480
cultural differences?
Because I mean if we have this

851
00:50:55,480 --> 00:51:00,160
objective truth about ethics and
morals, I mean, we clearly see a

852
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,840
difference in culture.
I mean until some cultures

853
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,480
perhaps?
Human trafficking might just be

854
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,040
the way.
The culture has just grown up

855
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:11,440
over time and to many people
maybe they don't see it as bad.

856
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:16,400
I obviously I'm not one of those
people, but how do we

857
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,280
differentiate then?
Cuz cuz then we have to agree

858
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:23,080
that we don't have objective
morals or values.

859
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,960
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, it's a very important

860
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,720
challenge to the moral
objectivist position.

861
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:36,770
And you know, I introduced this
by saying if you're going to be

862
00:51:36,770 --> 00:51:40,650
skeptical about moral
objectivity, you need to say,

863
00:51:40,650 --> 00:51:45,570
well, why is it okay to trust
your sensory experiences but not

864
00:51:45,570 --> 00:51:48,170
your moral experiences?
Otherwise, there's a double

865
00:51:48,170 --> 00:51:50,490
standard.
But actually you've just

866
00:51:50,490 --> 00:51:52,090
potentially answered that
question.

867
00:51:52,090 --> 00:51:54,690
But here's the difference.
You know, with our empirical

868
00:51:55,170 --> 00:51:57,610
experiences, we get a great
commonality.

869
00:51:57,610 --> 00:52:00,250
But then there's this
disagreement, and that's a very

870
00:52:00,250 --> 00:52:06,220
important challenge.
So why else have thought about

871
00:52:06,220 --> 00:52:10,260
this, trying to remember what my
view on it is?

872
00:52:10,300 --> 00:52:12,980
I mean, so one thing is I think
there's a, there's a lot more.

873
00:52:12,980 --> 00:52:16,380
I mean, I would say not so much
I'm a realist about morality,

874
00:52:16,380 --> 00:52:21,780
but a realist about value, that
there are facts about what is

875
00:52:21,780 --> 00:52:24,460
objectively valuable.
And when you think in terms of

876
00:52:24,460 --> 00:52:28,860
very, very general claims about
value, there is a hell of a lot

877
00:52:28,860 --> 00:52:33,010
of commonality in universality.
For example, pleasure is good,

878
00:52:33,130 --> 00:52:38,290
suffering is bad, Understanding
is good, ignorance is bad,

879
00:52:38,530 --> 00:52:45,890
creativity is good, apathy and
banality are bad, right?

880
00:52:46,570 --> 00:52:49,610
Does do many people disagree
with those general value claims?

881
00:52:50,170 --> 00:52:53,250
Now where you get disagreement
is, is, is, is.

882
00:52:53,250 --> 00:53:00,700
When it gets into the how it all
fits together, you know, more

883
00:53:00,700 --> 00:53:05,860
specific value claims about
justice or the ethics of

884
00:53:05,860 --> 00:53:09,180
abortion or whatever.
But then that's that's to my

885
00:53:09,180 --> 00:53:14,460
mind that that's to be expected
given that things just do get a

886
00:53:14,660 --> 00:53:19,780
things just do get very
complicated when the value

887
00:53:19,780 --> 00:53:22,660
equation gets so, so many
different factors are a play.

888
00:53:22,740 --> 00:53:25,900
So you sort of expect people to
evaluate them in different ways,

889
00:53:26,060 --> 00:53:29,420
just as you do in philosophy or
any complicated topic.

890
00:53:30,180 --> 00:53:32,980
When there's complicated
considerations and you've got to

891
00:53:32,980 --> 00:53:38,380
sort of do some highfalutin
abstract thinking, people end up

892
00:53:38,380 --> 00:53:39,940
disagreeing.
That's kind of to be expected.

893
00:53:40,140 --> 00:53:43,420
The other factor of course, is
that there's a lot of

894
00:53:44,220 --> 00:53:48,340
self-interest with morality and
people wanting to believe

895
00:53:48,340 --> 00:53:53,020
certain things.
And in our modern times, you

896
00:53:53,020 --> 00:53:58,750
know, corporations influencing
how people think and so on.

897
00:53:58,750 --> 00:54:04,710
And you know, if you don't want
to believe, you know, equality

898
00:54:04,710 --> 00:54:07,390
is an important part of economic
equality is important part of

899
00:54:07,390 --> 00:54:09,470
justice.
If you're very wealthy and you

900
00:54:09,470 --> 00:54:11,630
don't want to be taxed, you've
got a motivation not to believe

901
00:54:11,630 --> 00:54:13,230
that.
Of course there's that, you

902
00:54:13,230 --> 00:54:15,430
know, people coming out of
certain religious cultures or

903
00:54:15,430 --> 00:54:21,350
certain traditional views, so,
So for all these reasons, you

904
00:54:21,350 --> 00:54:24,630
know, you'd expect, I think
there to be diversity.

905
00:54:25,990 --> 00:54:34,070
But on these very, very general
sort of axioms of value, like

906
00:54:34,190 --> 00:54:36,270
pleasure is good, pain is bad.
I think there's actually a lot

907
00:54:36,270 --> 00:54:40,790
of agreement which is consistent
with with value realism.

908
00:54:41,910 --> 00:54:46,110
So within the Pancicus view, if
you take, I mean you mentioned

909
00:54:46,110 --> 00:54:50,790
something like abortion.
So ideally that grows a lot of

910
00:54:50,790 --> 00:54:53,110
like philosophical questions
with it because.

911
00:54:53,830 --> 00:54:59,590
In essence this this is an
experiencing system, part of

912
00:54:59,590 --> 00:55:01,990
reality.
And now we're drawing the line

913
00:55:01,990 --> 00:55:05,430
using scientific methods saying
OK, 12 weeks is the cut off line

914
00:55:05,430 --> 00:55:07,750
cuz this is what has developed
since then.

915
00:55:09,310 --> 00:55:11,270
How do we work around these
things?

916
00:55:11,270 --> 00:55:14,470
How do we work around perhaps
life after death?

917
00:55:14,470 --> 00:55:16,150
I mean there's so many aspects
to this.

918
00:55:16,150 --> 00:55:19,990
Where we What does Pan psychism
tell us about these things?

919
00:55:20,990 --> 00:55:24,680
Wow.
We're gonna he's very deep and

920
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:28,920
difficult ethical questions.
I mean in a way pun psychism

921
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:33,280
might not make that much
difference in so far as pun

922
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:37,200
psych is tend to think at the
macro level of reality not

923
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,440
everything is conscious and so
they might you know their view

924
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,080
is that the fundamental at the
level of fundamental physics

925
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:46,400
everything is conscious.
But at the at the higher level

926
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,280
they a pun psych is might hold
the same as anyone else.

927
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:51,520
It's it's a sort of open
question so they might not think

928
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,270
this.
They don't necessarily think the

929
00:55:53,270 --> 00:55:57,670
table is conscious they think
the bits it's made-up of ah but

930
00:55:57,670 --> 00:56:03,710
I suppose I suppose Pansagus
will naturally think spread

931
00:56:03,710 --> 00:56:10,670
consciousness think it's more
spread throughout the the the

932
00:56:10,670 --> 00:56:13,990
biological world than other
people may And I mean for one

933
00:56:13,990 --> 00:56:17,150
thing it makes it makes it very
difficult to we think about the

934
00:56:17,150 --> 00:56:19,630
ethics of eating.
I argue, I I argue a lot on

935
00:56:19,630 --> 00:56:24,200
Twitter with vegans about you
know, if you don't think plants

936
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:29,080
are conscious, then you've got a
nice moral cut off point because

937
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:30,680
I'm just not going to eat.
I'm going to eat things that

938
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:32,280
aren't conscious.
I'm not going to eat things that

939
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,160
are conscious.
But I think, I think plants

940
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:39,000
probably are conscious or at
least are communities of

941
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:43,440
conscious entities and so you
got to eat something.

942
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,840
It's it's hard to know what the
moral draw off comes pretty

943
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:49,080
difficult there.
I mean maybe same with with the

944
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:51,880
with a fetus.
I mean it's, I mean for anyone

945
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:58,760
it's it's very difficult to
establish where exactly

946
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:03,720
consciousness emerges in in in
in pregnancy.

947
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:08,320
But it's but a couple of things.
I mean, I suppose for that

948
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,720
reason I'm more inclined to
place a lot of moral weight on

949
00:57:14,180 --> 00:57:17,340
self-awareness, awareness of
one's own existence, the

950
00:57:17,340 --> 00:57:21,660
capacity to understand oneself
and the world around 1:00,

951
00:57:23,620 --> 00:57:28,300
which, for example, pigs have
more than newborn babies.

952
00:57:28,300 --> 00:57:30,820
So you might think in some sense
this this is great.

953
00:57:30,820 --> 00:57:37,980
I'm not saying we should kill
babies, but that there is, we've

954
00:57:37,980 --> 00:57:40,500
got a bear in mind that.
I mean I think, I think a pig is

955
00:57:40,820 --> 00:57:45,620
much more intellectually
cognitively sophisticated than a

956
00:57:45,660 --> 00:57:49,100
than than a very early fetus.
So.

957
00:57:49,180 --> 00:57:53,100
So I think those kind of things
play heavily for me.

958
00:57:53,100 --> 00:57:59,220
I was always very influenced as
well by the argument of Judith

959
00:57:59,220 --> 00:58:03,140
Jarvis, Tom Thompson that that
it's not so much didn't

960
00:58:03,140 --> 00:58:07,340
necessarily denying A fetus the
right to life, but thinking

961
00:58:07,340 --> 00:58:15,960
about the right, the right of
the pregnant woman not to be

962
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,760
forced to have her body used to
sustain that life.

963
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:24,840
So Judith Tom's had this
wonderful analogy of you wake

964
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:29,040
up, you've been kidnapped and
knocked out, and you're hooked

965
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:34,920
up to a famous violinist.
It's a bizarre story really.

966
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,720
The The Musical Society have
hooked you up to this violinist

967
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:42,590
because you're a rare donor, and
unless you stay hooked up to

968
00:58:42,590 --> 00:58:45,670
this violinist in this hospital
room for nine months, the

969
00:58:45,670 --> 00:58:48,310
violinist is going to die.
Now, everyone thinks the

970
00:58:48,310 --> 00:58:51,750
violinist has a right to life,
but that doesn't mean you're

971
00:58:51,750 --> 00:58:55,830
obliged to allow your body to be
used to sustain that life.

972
00:58:55,830 --> 00:58:59,630
So I think I for those two
reasons, that would be my

973
00:59:00,590 --> 00:59:04,870
motivation for being pro-choice
that, you know, the the the lack

974
00:59:04,870 --> 00:59:08,630
of cognitive sophistication of a
very early fetus and also that

975
00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:12,470
the right for a woman to choose
where the hair body is used in

976
00:59:12,470 --> 00:59:14,190
that way.
Now that's a great answer.

977
00:59:14,270 --> 00:59:17,350
Difficult though.
Just going back to your story

978
00:59:17,350 --> 00:59:19,110
about the vegan argument to just
today.

979
00:59:19,110 --> 00:59:23,430
I mean, I was my receptionist
told me that she she doesn't

980
00:59:23,430 --> 00:59:28,230
like vegans but but but she's
just joking around and she's

981
00:59:28,230 --> 00:59:33,020
like.
My main argument is is that if

982
00:59:33,020 --> 00:59:35,540
you're eating all the plants,
you're technically stealing all

983
00:59:35,540 --> 00:59:40,100
the animals food.
So in essence you are still

984
00:59:40,100 --> 00:59:45,820
killing the animals like this is
That is quite a ridiculous, but

985
00:59:45,820 --> 00:59:47,820
yet still quite fair.
Fair enough.

986
00:59:47,980 --> 00:59:51,380
Well, look, I mean, the position
I've come to is what I call

987
00:59:51,380 --> 00:59:56,580
humanitarianism of just.
Treating the animals, not not

988
00:59:56,580 --> 01:00:01,240
eating any animal products that
are factory farmed.

989
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:03,600
And you know, a lot of people
say, oh, you know, I don't agree

990
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:08,160
with factory farming and maybe
they'll buy meat that's not

991
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:10,120
factory farmed, although that
can be very expensive.

992
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:14,360
But very few people ask in
restaurants, is the meat factory

993
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:18,400
farmed?
You know, don't eat chocolate

994
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:22,600
unless the milk is not factory.
You know, dairy is one of often

995
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:25,600
one of the worst, most cruel
forms of factory farming.

996
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:29,020
So you know if.
It's it's strange to me in some

997
01:00:29,020 --> 01:00:31,860
ways, being vegetarian if you're
happy to eat chocolate because

998
01:00:32,060 --> 01:00:33,820
you know, milk chocolate, dairy
products.

999
01:00:34,740 --> 01:00:39,740
So my thought is if more people
did that, then that could really

1000
01:00:39,740 --> 01:00:43,540
have an impact.
But I'm gonna read, I'm gonna

1001
01:00:43,540 --> 01:00:46,380
read George Mumbio's new book,
actually trying to persuade us

1002
01:00:46,380 --> 01:00:48,820
all to be vegan for
environmental reasons.

1003
01:00:50,140 --> 01:00:51,900
Maybe I'll end up vegan.
Thought on that.

1004
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:55,360
He's.
But anyway, let's not get into

1005
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:58,280
that.
The main thing here is let's

1006
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:02,520
tell me about some of Philip,
some of the best counter

1007
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:06,120
arguments you've heard for Pants
against panpsychism.

1008
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:09,360
If you had to play devil's
advocate on yourself right now,

1009
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:12,240
what?
What has really gotten your

1010
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,840
attention where you really
thought I might not be able to

1011
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,200
argue this as well as I wish,
but perhaps one day someone

1012
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:22,080
will.
That's a good question.

1013
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:25,500
I mean, probably the most
discussed challenge is the

1014
01:01:25,500 --> 01:01:31,060
socalled combination problem,
which is okay.

1015
01:01:31,060 --> 01:01:36,060
It's all very well postulating
particles, having consciousness

1016
01:01:36,060 --> 01:01:38,820
or whatever.
But ultimately what we want to

1017
01:01:38,820 --> 01:01:43,540
explain is our consciousness and
how on earth do these little

1018
01:01:43,540 --> 01:01:49,300
conscious things come together
to make our consciousness And

1019
01:01:49,460 --> 01:01:53,000
and on the face of it, you know,
it seems to be something very

1020
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,920
hard to make sense of.
Is it even coherent for lots of

1021
01:01:55,920 --> 01:02:01,240
little minds to make one big
mind And this is something I've

1022
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:03,320
changed my mind about a lot and
thought about a lot.

1023
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:06,880
I think where I've ended up with
though is, is I think that it's

1024
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:13,680
that the challenges really is,
is that it's strongest, at least

1025
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:18,680
if you're going for a very
reductionist pan psychus story

1026
01:02:19,970 --> 01:02:25,410
where you say really all there
is is conscious particles and

1027
01:02:26,330 --> 01:02:31,090
what we think, what I think of
as my mind is just a complicated

1028
01:02:31,090 --> 01:02:32,810
collection of conscious
particles.

1029
01:02:33,370 --> 01:02:36,690
So someone like Luke Rolloff's
tries to defend this very

1030
01:02:36,690 --> 01:02:44,730
reductionist kind of panpsychism
that is hard to make sense.

1031
01:02:45,210 --> 01:02:48,640
So there seems to be a deep
unity about my own conscious

1032
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:54,640
mind that resists that kind of
very, very reductionist story.

1033
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:59,080
This it's hard to deny that my
mind is something over and above

1034
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,400
just a very complicated
collection of particles, whether

1035
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:07,440
they're conscious or not.
But actually, and this comes

1036
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:13,640
back to my dispute with with
Sean Carroll, I, I, I, I now no

1037
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:16,840
longer think there's much of
much of A motivation to go for

1038
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:20,880
that very reductionist story.
You only feel pressured to do

1039
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:25,200
that when when you, when you
start from the conviction that

1040
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:29,520
everything that happens is
ultimately explicable in terms

1041
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:35,560
of known chemistry and physics.
And I used to think that I, I,

1042
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:39,000
I, that's kind of what I got
taught as an undergraduate.

1043
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:42,040
But just from talking to
neuroscientists, really, we've

1044
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,650
got a interdisciplinary
consciousness group at my

1045
01:03:44,650 --> 01:03:49,570
university here.
And I I just, I I we really

1046
01:03:49,570 --> 01:03:52,130
don't know anywhere near enough
about the brain.

1047
01:03:52,570 --> 01:03:54,090
Do you know what we know about
the brain?

1048
01:03:54,090 --> 01:03:55,810
Really?
We know a lot about the basic

1049
01:03:55,810 --> 01:03:58,850
chemistry.
So like the bottom we know what,

1050
01:03:58,850 --> 01:04:02,970
we know a fair bit about large
scale functions, what big bits

1051
01:04:02,970 --> 01:04:05,570
do.
But what we're pretty almost

1052
01:04:05,570 --> 01:04:11,860
clueless on is how those
functions are realized at the

1053
01:04:11,860 --> 01:04:17,260
cellular level, how it works.
And we'd have to know a lot more

1054
01:04:17,260 --> 01:04:21,300
about that before we could
confidently say, you know,

1055
01:04:21,740 --> 01:04:25,300
everything that happens in my
brain is explicable in terms of

1056
01:04:25,580 --> 01:04:27,500
currently known chemistry and
physics.

1057
01:04:27,740 --> 01:04:30,620
I think we just don't know that.
So, so I'm more attracted to at

1058
01:04:30,620 --> 01:04:35,660
least not such a reduction
story.

1059
01:04:36,620 --> 01:04:39,380
You know, once you're freed from
that, then you can just think

1060
01:04:39,380 --> 01:04:43,060
that let's just stick with
particles and Zakosimplicity.

1061
01:04:43,420 --> 01:04:49,020
Just have basic capacities to,
in certain circumstances combine

1062
01:04:49,020 --> 01:04:53,980
into more complex unified forms
and we should look to

1063
01:04:53,980 --> 01:04:58,260
neuroscience to guide us in in
when that happens.

1064
01:04:58,260 --> 01:05:01,340
I'm quite attracted to the
Integrated Information Theory

1065
01:05:01,340 --> 01:05:05,820
which is 1 proposal as to when
consciousness arises in in in

1066
01:05:05,820 --> 01:05:09,250
the brain so but I.
Actually wanted to ask you about

1067
01:05:09,250 --> 01:05:12,370
that at some point your view and
integrate into information

1068
01:05:12,770 --> 01:05:15,850
theory and how do you feel it
plays a role with the sort of

1069
01:05:15,850 --> 01:05:18,370
explaining or adopting a pan
psychist view?

1070
01:05:18,370 --> 01:05:21,010
Because obviously they're
starting off with Phi and moving

1071
01:05:21,010 --> 01:05:22,970
upward.
Do you feel as that that

1072
01:05:22,970 --> 01:05:27,090
represents A panpsychist attempt
at philosophical thinking?

1073
01:05:27,810 --> 01:05:31,810
So my view is we need to
distinguish very sharp, not very

1074
01:05:31,810 --> 01:05:36,970
sharply, quite sharply
scientific bit of consciousness

1075
01:05:36,970 --> 01:05:39,450
research and the and the
philosophical bit.

1076
01:05:39,450 --> 01:05:46,290
So the scientific bit is to work
out what kinds of brain activity

1077
01:05:46,290 --> 01:05:48,530
go along with what kinds of
experience.

1078
01:05:48,530 --> 01:05:52,210
That's the scientific bit.
And integrated information

1079
01:05:52,210 --> 01:05:56,330
Theory is 1 proposal on that.
It says that you get

1080
01:05:56,330 --> 01:06:01,250
consciousness in a system when
there's more Phi as you say or

1081
01:06:01,250 --> 01:06:04,690
integrated information in the
whole system than in its parts.

1082
01:06:05,540 --> 01:06:09,260
So probably this glass of water
isn't conscious because it's

1083
01:06:09,260 --> 01:06:12,260
probably more fine in the
molecules than in the liquid as

1084
01:06:12,260 --> 01:06:15,500
a whole.
But in the brain there's huge,

1085
01:06:15,500 --> 01:06:19,260
in certain parts of the brain at
least there's huge even though

1086
01:06:19,260 --> 01:06:22,380
there's a lot of lot of fine and
you're on, there's even more in

1087
01:06:22,380 --> 01:06:24,620
in the whole system.
So that's why you get conscious.

1088
01:06:24,620 --> 01:06:26,580
So that's one interesting
proposal.

1089
01:06:26,580 --> 01:06:31,460
What I like about it is that it
gives us allows for kind of

1090
01:06:31,460 --> 01:06:37,150
sharp cutoff points between
systems that are conscious and

1091
01:06:37,150 --> 01:06:41,510
systems that aren't conscious.
And on philosophical grounds, I

1092
01:06:41,510 --> 01:06:47,070
don't think it makes sense to
have fuzzy boundaries around

1093
01:06:47,070 --> 01:06:49,870
consciousness.
Like think of a cloud there's

1094
01:06:50,030 --> 01:06:52,630
you know, there's no sharp put
off cut off point between the

1095
01:06:53,110 --> 01:06:56,870
where's the where's the edge of
the cloud, which is this?

1096
01:06:56,870 --> 01:06:59,790
Is this a little bit of water
vapor outside the cloud or is it

1097
01:06:59,790 --> 01:07:01,550
part of the cloud?
It's probably no fact of the

1098
01:07:01,550 --> 01:07:03,710
matter there.
But if we're thinking of my

1099
01:07:03,710 --> 01:07:08,670
consciousness, either something
is part of my experience or it

1100
01:07:08,670 --> 01:07:09,950
isn't.
I don't think it kind of makes

1101
01:07:09,950 --> 01:07:13,950
sense.
And for then for there to be

1102
01:07:13,950 --> 01:07:16,710
fuzzy boundaries around my mind,
I mean, that's something we

1103
01:07:16,710 --> 01:07:22,390
could debate, but I I T
integrated information theory

1104
01:07:22,710 --> 01:07:25,270
can make sense of that.
But that's just the scientific

1105
01:07:25,270 --> 01:07:27,590
bit.
And I think that like any any

1106
01:07:27,590 --> 01:07:31,140
philosophical theory, it's
sorry, like any scientific

1107
01:07:31,140 --> 01:07:34,060
theory, it's it's neutral on all
the philosophical options.

1108
01:07:34,060 --> 01:07:38,540
So you could, you could be a
materialist proponent of

1109
01:07:38,540 --> 01:07:44,060
integrated information theory
and think just just have an

1110
01:07:44,060 --> 01:07:46,580
identity between consciousness
and Phi.

1111
01:07:48,100 --> 01:07:54,580
Or you could be a duelist like
David Charmers and think Phi and

1112
01:07:54,580 --> 01:07:57,140
consciousness are different
things, but there are special

1113
01:07:57,140 --> 01:07:59,340
laws of nature that tie them
together.

1114
01:07:59,860 --> 01:08:02,060
Or you could be a panpsychist
and you could think, you know,

1115
01:08:03,140 --> 01:08:06,540
consciousness is the fundamental
level and that bubbles up when

1116
01:08:06,540 --> 01:08:11,420
you've got Phi or something.
So, so yeah, so, so Phi I think

1117
01:08:11,420 --> 01:08:15,580
I I like for certain specific
reasons to do with you can't

1118
01:08:15,580 --> 01:08:17,899
have fuzzy consciousness, fuzzy
boundaries and consciousness.

1119
01:08:18,500 --> 01:08:21,620
And I suppose it fits upon
psychism in in that it it

1120
01:08:21,620 --> 01:08:24,460
predicts that there's more
consciousness than we ordinarily

1121
01:08:24,660 --> 01:08:26,300
expect.
But.

1122
01:08:27,300 --> 01:08:29,580
Are there any other
neuroscientific theories that

1123
01:08:30,020 --> 01:08:35,020
you sort of are attracted to?
Not really for that reason,

1124
01:08:35,580 --> 01:08:38,620
because I mean, look, there's a
lot, there's a lot.

1125
01:08:39,779 --> 01:08:43,899
It's very, it's very early days.
There is no consensus in

1126
01:08:43,899 --> 01:08:48,700
neuroscience.
You know, some people thought it

1127
01:08:48,700 --> 01:08:51,779
would be all wrapped up by now,
but there's it's very hard

1128
01:08:51,779 --> 01:08:56,090
because because consciousness is
not publicly observable.

1129
01:08:56,090 --> 01:09:00,689
And so where you've got a human
being you can ask them what

1130
01:09:00,689 --> 01:09:03,010
they're experiencing, but that
that you know the more distance

1131
01:09:03,010 --> 01:09:05,890
you get from the human case.
It's very speculative.

1132
01:09:06,689 --> 01:09:11,170
Eric Schwitzkable now thinks we
will just never know whether

1133
01:09:11,210 --> 01:09:15,410
snail is conscious because it's
just too distant from the human

1134
01:09:15,410 --> 01:09:19,930
case.
But I think we can try and look

1135
01:09:19,930 --> 01:09:29,790
for philosophical signposts and
I think this important what we

1136
01:09:29,790 --> 01:09:32,390
can we can look for what we know
about consciousness from the

1137
01:09:32,390 --> 01:09:35,310
inside.
And I and one thing I think we

1138
01:09:35,310 --> 01:09:40,470
know about consciousness from
the inside is that they can't be

1139
01:09:40,750 --> 01:09:42,630
fuzzy boundaries when it comes
to consciousness.

1140
01:09:42,630 --> 01:09:45,870
And I think I'm happy to be
corrected on this, but I think

1141
01:09:45,870 --> 01:09:49,149
the Integrated Information
Theory is the only scientific

1142
01:09:49,149 --> 01:09:52,790
proposal that can accommodate
that philosophical data point.

1143
01:09:53,310 --> 01:09:58,230
So to my mind, it's, whatever
its flaws are very far from the

1144
01:09:58,230 --> 01:10:00,910
final theory of consciousness.
It's to my mind it's only

1145
01:10:00,910 --> 01:10:02,630
philosophically credible 1.
Yeah.

1146
01:10:02,630 --> 01:10:05,470
So what are your thoughts on
like let's say someone like

1147
01:10:05,470 --> 01:10:09,990
Penrose and John Leveke and
Quantum Consciousness Where do

1148
01:10:10,310 --> 01:10:17,470
you where's your head at with
that I'm Penrose thing starts

1149
01:10:17,470 --> 01:10:21,870
with a fascinating argument to
do with girdles incompleteness

1150
01:10:21,870 --> 01:10:25,700
theorem.
And it's interesting though that

1151
01:10:25,860 --> 01:10:29,220
that is really when you when you
think about it it's not so much

1152
01:10:29,220 --> 01:10:32,980
to do with consciousness it's to
do with cognition it's to do

1153
01:10:32,980 --> 01:10:35,940
with understanding.
Because what Penrose is thinking

1154
01:10:35,940 --> 01:10:41,060
is he he's wrestling with how to
make sense of mathematical

1155
01:10:41,060 --> 01:10:44,580
understanding given girdles
incompleteness theorem.

1156
01:10:44,580 --> 01:10:48,540
Girdles incompleteness theorem
seems to show Penrose thinks

1157
01:10:48,540 --> 01:10:55,000
that you know a computer
couldn't do the kind of

1158
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:57,600
mathematical and have the
mathematical understanding we

1159
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:03,320
have because you can't reduce
mathematics to a system of

1160
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:07,480
axioms where you can prove
everything with those axioms.

1161
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:09,680
So he thinks mathematical
understanding must be sort of

1162
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:13,040
non computational and that's why
he thinks there must be some

1163
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:16,720
kind of quantum non classical
physics coming in here.

1164
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:20,040
So, you know, that's
fundamentally his motivation.

1165
01:11:20,450 --> 01:11:23,370
I wouldn't, you know, I wonder
whether again this comes back to

1166
01:11:23,370 --> 01:11:29,410
the to the need to connect
everything to kind of currently

1167
01:11:29,410 --> 01:11:33,370
known physics or closely related
to currently known physics.

1168
01:11:33,370 --> 01:11:42,370
I mean, in terms of that
problem, I I think I'd be much

1169
01:11:42,370 --> 01:11:47,560
more open to to supplementing
macro level physics with the

1170
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:51,920
idea that the there are just new
causal dynamics that kick in in

1171
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:53,760
complex systems.
This is sometimes known as

1172
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:56,880
strong emergentism.
So we don't have to go down to

1173
01:11:56,880 --> 01:12:00,520
the quantum level, we can just
say, look, there's this new

1174
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:04,840
causal dynamics that emerge in
human cognition.

1175
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:07,640
And this is actually what I talk
about like my new book I'm

1176
01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:11,240
working on.
That's much more about conscious

1177
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:14,600
understanding and conceptual
meaning.

1178
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:17,560
When philosophers and scientists
talk about consciousness, they

1179
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:22,360
always talk about pain and
seeing red and itches and these

1180
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:25,960
kind of very animal sensations.
But I think consciousness is

1181
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:30,400
permeated with meaning and
understanding what things are

1182
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:34,510
and what they mean fills my
experience.

1183
01:12:34,510 --> 01:12:36,750
You know, I don't experience
colors and shapes.

1184
01:12:36,750 --> 01:12:40,470
I experience tables and chairs
and faces and stuff.

1185
01:12:41,870 --> 01:12:44,870
So.
So I I I think Penrose is one of

1186
01:12:44,870 --> 01:12:48,270
is spot on and he's one of the
few to be wrestling with these

1187
01:12:48,630 --> 01:12:53,310
deep mysteries about conscious
understanding.

1188
01:12:53,630 --> 01:12:55,670
But I think I would go a
slightly different way with that

1189
01:12:55,670 --> 01:12:59,430
and just say go for strong
emergentism rather than trying

1190
01:12:59,470 --> 01:13:03,220
to hook everything up to the
quantum level.

1191
01:13:04,020 --> 01:13:08,580
And then people like let's say
Rupert Sheldrake and what are

1192
01:13:08,580 --> 01:13:11,220
your thoughts on someone like
his view on consciousness.

1193
01:13:12,420 --> 01:13:15,620
So I'm I'm quite good friends of
Rupert Sheldrake and we're doing

1194
01:13:15,620 --> 01:13:20,140
a debate or a discussion rather
in in the near future on a

1195
01:13:20,940 --> 01:13:26,140
religion without belief because
I guess we're both kind of

1196
01:13:26,260 --> 01:13:35,340
practicing Christians who have
very unortho the views of what

1197
01:13:35,340 --> 01:13:38,980
it mean what what is involved in
being a Christian and and then

1198
01:13:38,980 --> 01:13:43,820
we're we're hooking up with oh
what's his name and mine's gone

1199
01:13:43,820 --> 01:13:46,980
blank wonderful poet and
environmental activist who

1200
01:13:48,700 --> 01:13:52,100
recently surprised everyone by
converting to quite conservative

1201
01:13:52,100 --> 01:13:54,540
Christianity and anyway we're
going to be having to chat with

1202
01:13:54,540 --> 01:13:56,820
him but anyway coming back to
yeah so Rupert's.

1203
01:13:56,900 --> 01:14:01,360
Rupert's got very interesting
views, you know, I think he can

1204
01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:06,360
defend them very he can
articulate them and defend them

1205
01:14:06,360 --> 01:14:08,920
very well.
But so I suppose Rupert is

1206
01:14:08,920 --> 01:14:13,480
defending his views as a
scientist on empirical grounds

1207
01:14:13,480 --> 01:14:16,240
rather than strictly
philosophical grounds.

1208
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:19,000
So I suppose it's kind of, this
may be a bit of a cop out, but

1209
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:22,410
it's sort of outside of my skill
set in a way.

1210
01:14:22,410 --> 01:14:27,170
I think, you know, knowledge is
very specialized now and I'm

1211
01:14:27,170 --> 01:14:29,970
jealous to people in the 16th
century when you could sort of

1212
01:14:29,970 --> 01:14:32,170
understand the cutting edge
science, the cutting edge

1213
01:14:32,210 --> 01:14:35,210
mathematics.
But you know, in a way when it

1214
01:14:35,210 --> 01:14:38,090
comes to imperial questions, I
sort of have to because it's not

1215
01:14:38,090 --> 01:14:42,970
my skill set.
I sort of have to trust the, you

1216
01:14:42,970 --> 01:14:46,610
know, the consensus and I
suppose for better or worse the

1217
01:14:46,610 --> 01:14:49,900
consensus is against Rupert.
I suppose he would say that's

1218
01:14:49,900 --> 01:14:53,980
the cultural reasons and people
aren't taking him serious for

1219
01:14:53,980 --> 01:14:55,980
cultural reasons.
And I'm open to, I'm very much

1220
01:14:55,980 --> 01:14:59,020
open to that argument.
I've I've experienced in in

1221
01:14:59,020 --> 01:15:04,020
philosophy, which is my area,
you know, how ideology stops,

1222
01:15:04,020 --> 01:15:06,700
stops certain views being taken
seriously.

1223
01:15:06,700 --> 01:15:11,820
And so I'm I I can I'm open to
that possibility but because

1224
01:15:11,820 --> 01:15:16,150
it's not my skill set I just
don't think I can assess whether

1225
01:15:16,150 --> 01:15:18,950
he whether he's right or not.
It's absolutely fascinating

1226
01:15:18,950 --> 01:15:22,190
views though and you know I
certainly, you know he's had his

1227
01:15:22,190 --> 01:15:24,430
Ted talk band and everything.
I certainly don't think he

1228
01:15:24,430 --> 01:15:26,950
should be as ostracized as he
is.

1229
01:15:26,990 --> 01:15:29,150
I think you know yeah again
there's a there is a sort of

1230
01:15:29,150 --> 01:15:33,870
fear there isn't there about I
suppose people worry about

1231
01:15:33,870 --> 01:15:38,400
losing control you know being
open to any old stuff and but

1232
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:42,440
look if someone can defend their
views with rigor and seriousness

1233
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:46,320
then you know they they they
should be given a hearing and I

1234
01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:48,680
think.
I think, but do you think as far

1235
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:51,280
as I can see some?
People are now mysterians

1236
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:55,160
regarding consciousness because
they're they are just that many

1237
01:15:55,160 --> 01:15:58,080
convincing arguments and we just
don't know.

1238
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:04,520
Yeah, Mysterianism is, is is
again a position we should take

1239
01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:08,410
seriously.
And I'm some, I'm to some extent

1240
01:16:08,410 --> 01:16:10,290
open to it myself.
I mean you're asking for

1241
01:16:10,290 --> 01:16:14,730
challenges to pan psychism.
I suppose another one would be,

1242
01:16:15,930 --> 01:16:22,490
well, just the position of
shouldn't we be agnostic?

1243
01:16:22,490 --> 01:16:26,250
You know, I can't look into an
electron to see whether it's

1244
01:16:26,250 --> 01:16:28,730
conscious or not.
Maybe we should just be

1245
01:16:28,730 --> 01:16:31,570
agnostic.
Maybe we should just say there's

1246
01:16:31,730 --> 01:16:34,250
a there's a view that's very
closely connected to mine that

1247
01:16:34,410 --> 01:16:38,400
just says so agrees with this
Bertrand Russell starting point

1248
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:44,920
that physics doesn't tell us
what matter is, only what it

1249
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:50,400
does and agrees that you know
whatever matter is, it's it's

1250
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:54,400
somehow explains consciousness.
So you might say it's proto

1251
01:16:54,400 --> 01:16:58,640
conscious that it's it's somehow
has a nature that makes

1252
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:01,480
consciousness but it's not
itself conscious.

1253
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:05,240
And you know I'm very much opens
opposition the the philosopher

1254
01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:08,560
Daniel Stoljar and his review of
my academic book, Consciousness

1255
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:11,560
and Fundamental Reality was sort
of pushing this line.

1256
01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:14,040
You know that there's something
right about this Bertrand

1257
01:17:14,040 --> 01:17:17,840
Russell position but we just
don't know enough to be able to

1258
01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:20,000
say Pansagon's case.
So I'm kind of open to that.

1259
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:28,400
But at the end of the day, my
current thinking is what Why go

1260
01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:31,840
for mystery when there's an
intelligible hypothesis as an

1261
01:17:31,840 --> 01:17:35,850
alternative and all we can ever
do is science And philosophy, I

1262
01:17:35,850 --> 01:17:40,330
think is try and work out, you
know, the most simple

1263
01:17:41,970 --> 01:17:44,650
parsimonious hypothesis
compatible with the data.

1264
01:17:45,050 --> 01:17:51,930
If we can account for not only
consciousness, but the facts of

1265
01:17:51,930 --> 01:17:54,850
physical science and natural
science more generally by

1266
01:17:54,850 --> 01:18:00,400
postulating basic simple forms
of consciousness, then that

1267
01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:03,760
seems to me by normal scientific
criteria of you know, the simp

1268
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:06,000
going for the simplest theory
that can account for the data.

1269
01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:07,120
That's the view we should go
for.

1270
01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:11,400
We don't know for sure, we'll
never know for sure, and we

1271
01:18:11,400 --> 01:18:13,200
should be open to other
possibilities.

1272
01:18:13,200 --> 01:18:18,760
But I still think pan psychism
is is just a bit more likely to

1273
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:21,400
be true than.
I think other options on the

1274
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:23,480
table.
Thank you give a great, great

1275
01:18:23,480 --> 01:18:25,880
coherent argument for it.
I mean, I've read Galileo's era

1276
01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:28,480
of read Consciousness,
Fundamental Reality, and that

1277
01:18:28,480 --> 01:18:33,050
one's a lot more.
In depth and in detail for SO,

1278
01:18:33,050 --> 01:18:36,890
like for all the people who read
Galileo's era, I think I highly

1279
01:18:36,890 --> 01:18:40,570
recommend you go read the other
one, because you go into far

1280
01:18:40,570 --> 01:18:42,890
greater detail and it's
obviously meant for a different

1281
01:18:42,890 --> 01:18:45,450
group of people.
But if people have some sort of

1282
01:18:45,450 --> 01:18:48,410
a view on your view of
panpsychism, they should

1283
01:18:48,410 --> 01:18:50,610
definitely read both before
making a conclusion.

1284
01:18:51,450 --> 01:18:55,210
On that note, who do you think?
Because obviously, I would

1285
01:18:55,210 --> 01:18:57,490
recommend your books to someone
who wants to read about

1286
01:18:57,490 --> 01:18:59,450
panpsychism.
Who are the people you'd

1287
01:18:59,450 --> 01:19:02,410
recommend people should read in
order to get a great

1288
01:19:02,410 --> 01:19:08,370
understanding of panpsychism?
Oh well, it's just, yeah,

1289
01:19:08,370 --> 01:19:10,730
there's there's so much going on
at the moment.

1290
01:19:10,770 --> 01:19:11,850
I mean, it's difficult, isn't
it?

1291
01:19:11,850 --> 01:19:15,770
Because I guess a lot of
academic philosophic philosophy

1292
01:19:15,770 --> 01:19:22,410
work now can be so inaccessible.
I think this is, you know, again

1293
01:19:22,410 --> 01:19:26,920
it's a reflection of knowledge
being so specialized and and

1294
01:19:26,920 --> 01:19:29,760
often philosophers, I think
we're trained to try and have

1295
01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:33,760
these watertight arguments.
And so you yeah, you try and

1296
01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:36,760
cover all bases and then it ends
up getting really complicated

1297
01:19:36,760 --> 01:19:39,160
and the jargon comes in.
So that's why in a way, you know

1298
01:19:39,160 --> 01:19:43,360
I wrote my academic book first
cuz it once you write a more

1299
01:19:43,360 --> 01:19:46,560
accessible version, you've gotta
be a bit looser with the

1300
01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:49,040
argument you can't cover all
objections.

1301
01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:52,660
So then philosophers read it and
say oh you haven't considered

1302
01:19:52,660 --> 01:19:53,700
this you haven't considered
this.

1303
01:19:53,740 --> 01:19:56,260
And so then I could say well
read read the academic book if

1304
01:19:56,260 --> 01:19:58,180
you want the full story, the
full argument.

1305
01:19:58,580 --> 01:20:02,540
But yeah so Luke Roloff's book
Combining Minds is is a

1306
01:20:02,540 --> 01:20:07,460
wonderful book a little bit
challenging I guess had to

1307
01:20:07,460 --> 01:20:10,260
hassel Mer great philosopher.
She's got a she's got a great

1308
01:20:10,260 --> 01:20:13,540
piece with Nautilus that I would
recommend giving the basic

1309
01:20:13,540 --> 01:20:16,540
pansychist position something on
the integrated information

1310
01:20:16,540 --> 01:20:19,420
theory for philosophy.
Now, she wrote for a special

1311
01:20:19,420 --> 01:20:25,590
issue I.
Edited and she's working on on

1312
01:20:25,630 --> 01:20:29,070
on a book on antiphysicalism,
actually, for Keith's series and

1313
01:20:29,070 --> 01:20:30,830
philosophy of mine Keith told me
about recently.

1314
01:20:31,390 --> 01:20:34,310
And another results people might
want to look to is There's this.

1315
01:20:35,430 --> 01:20:38,470
There was a special issue of the
Journal of Consciousness Studies

1316
01:20:41,070 --> 01:20:45,110
on on how many was it?
Now 19 essays.

1317
01:20:45,740 --> 01:20:49,620
My philosophers and scientists
and theologians responding to my

1318
01:20:49,620 --> 01:20:53,340
book Galileo's Era and this is
gonna be coming out as a book,

1319
01:20:53,340 --> 01:20:56,820
actually later this year called
Is Consciousness Everywhere.

1320
01:20:57,220 --> 01:21:03,370
So there's essays by Anal, Seth
and Sean Carroll and Julio

1321
01:21:03,370 --> 01:21:06,610
Tononi.
The huge of course all coming

1322
01:21:06,610 --> 01:21:09,130
out of you.
Yeah.

1323
01:21:09,130 --> 01:21:12,970
But I mean well in in a way user
suspects but I don't think

1324
01:21:12,970 --> 01:21:16,690
there's I can't think another
time these kinds of scientists

1325
01:21:16,690 --> 01:21:20,090
have responded to pun psychism.
So it's.

1326
01:21:20,290 --> 01:21:21,410
It's.
In a way it's.

1327
01:21:21,610 --> 01:21:23,610
I can't personally can't wait to
read this.

1328
01:21:23,610 --> 01:21:27,430
This is it's it's quite there is
a development.

1329
01:21:27,430 --> 01:21:30,430
I mean, these guys don't agree
with me, but, you know, I think

1330
01:21:30,430 --> 01:21:34,510
taking the view is seriously
enough to engage with it.

1331
01:21:34,510 --> 01:21:38,110
I think is is an is an
achievement.

1332
01:21:38,110 --> 01:21:41,510
So that's what is loads of
stuff.

1333
01:21:41,510 --> 01:21:44,550
What is, I suppose Miri Al
Bahari's a very good Australian

1334
01:21:44,550 --> 01:21:49,550
philosopher who defends a more
spiritual version of pan

1335
01:21:49,550 --> 01:21:54,400
psychism, inspired by Hindu
mysticism and partly based on

1336
01:21:54,680 --> 01:21:57,560
arguing that we can trust the
testimony of experienced

1337
01:21:57,560 --> 01:21:59,640
meditators.
She's been working on a book for

1338
01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:02,560
a while.
I hope to come out soon.

1339
01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:08,240
My blog?
Yeah, yeah.

1340
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:10,920
So so tell me full of stuff out.
Right.

1341
01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:12,760
That you've got prepped and
ready to go.

1342
01:22:13,160 --> 01:22:16,160
What What's the goal here?
Or what's the next mission?

1343
01:22:16,160 --> 01:22:18,480
Because, I mean, you've read,
you've written the Academic one,

1344
01:22:18,840 --> 01:22:22,640
You've written Galileo's error.
What do you hope to show us

1345
01:22:22,960 --> 01:22:25,640
next?
I hope this book actually is

1346
01:22:25,640 --> 01:22:31,320
going to be a come both academic
and accessible.

1347
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:33,560
I've wrestled for a long time
about which to do.

1348
01:22:33,560 --> 01:22:38,520
I can't let.
You crack, yeah, I'm hoping

1349
01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:42,520
maybe it's not possible, but so
each chapter at the moment is

1350
01:22:42,520 --> 01:22:45,640
divided into more accessible
bits and A and a more technical

1351
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:48,280
bits and.
But the whole thing I tried to

1352
01:22:48,280 --> 01:22:52,410
make quite accessible, but it's
it's it's a different book in

1353
01:22:52,410 --> 01:22:57,170
content as well.
But it's I guess the big idea is

1354
01:22:57,170 --> 01:23:02,090
exploring the middle ground
between God and atheism.

1355
01:23:02,090 --> 01:23:05,290
So I think in the West people
think you have to fit into one

1356
01:23:05,290 --> 01:23:08,850
of those groups.
You either believe in the Omni

1357
01:23:08,850 --> 01:23:13,210
guard or powerful knowing
perfectly good, or you think

1358
01:23:13,210 --> 01:23:18,830
we're in this meaningless
universe where you know meaning

1359
01:23:18,830 --> 01:23:21,470
only arises at the end of
evolution or whatever.

1360
01:23:23,390 --> 01:23:26,430
And I I've come to think that
both of these views are are

1361
01:23:26,430 --> 01:23:31,030
pretty implausible.
Both have data they can't

1362
01:23:31,030 --> 01:23:37,070
handle.
In terms of the Omni God, it's

1363
01:23:37,070 --> 01:23:40,150
the familiar problem of evil and
suffering.

1364
01:23:40,510 --> 01:23:45,150
Why would an all all powerful
loving God allow what create a

1365
01:23:45,150 --> 01:23:49,620
world of so much suffering in it
in terms of atheism of the

1366
01:23:49,620 --> 01:23:53,460
meaningless universe?
I think one thing I discussed

1367
01:23:53,460 --> 01:23:56,940
there is is the the the fine
tuning of physics, the discovery

1368
01:23:56,940 --> 01:24:01,100
in recent decades that for life
to be possible, many numbers in

1369
01:24:01,100 --> 01:24:05,460
physics have to fall in a quite
narrow range such that it's it's

1370
01:24:05,460 --> 01:24:08,020
incredibly improbable that that
would happen just by chance.

1371
01:24:08,380 --> 01:24:11,660
I think on the on the face of
it, if you just look at this

1372
01:24:11,660 --> 01:24:15,860
passionately, that is very
strong evidence for some kind of

1373
01:24:17,150 --> 01:24:20,590
gold directed activity, some
kind of directedness towards

1374
01:24:20,590 --> 01:24:23,430
life in in in the very early
universe.

1375
01:24:23,430 --> 01:24:26,390
And I think, I basically think
it's a cultural in denial about

1376
01:24:26,390 --> 01:24:29,950
this.
I think it's reminiscent of the

1377
01:24:29,950 --> 01:24:33,950
16th century where there was
this growing evidence for the

1378
01:24:33,950 --> 01:24:37,430
Earth not being in the center of
the universe that didn't fit

1379
01:24:37,430 --> 01:24:41,670
with the picture that people
have got used to, and people

1380
01:24:42,190 --> 01:24:45,050
couldn't accept it.
And they tried to think of these

1381
01:24:45,050 --> 01:24:47,970
ways of avoiding it.
You know, they postulated these

1382
01:24:48,730 --> 01:24:51,090
epicycles, so they thought
everything went around the

1383
01:24:51,130 --> 01:24:53,130
Earth, the sun and the planets
and the stars.

1384
01:24:53,370 --> 01:24:57,610
They postulated these extra
little orbits of the planets in

1385
01:24:57,610 --> 01:24:59,850
addition to their orbits around
the Earth, and that didn't do

1386
01:24:59,850 --> 01:25:03,050
it.
So they postulated these orbits

1387
01:25:03,050 --> 01:25:07,210
around orbits.
And and we think, oh God, they

1388
01:25:07,210 --> 01:25:09,530
were so stupid, they couldn't
just accept the evidence.

1389
01:25:09,930 --> 01:25:14,180
And we're so enlightened now But
I think every generation has got

1390
01:25:14,180 --> 01:25:18,340
used to a picture of how things
are supposed to be and you get

1391
01:25:18,340 --> 01:25:19,540
laughed at if you don't fit into
that.

1392
01:25:19,540 --> 01:25:24,900
And I I think you know I think I
think it's just culturally

1393
01:25:24,900 --> 01:25:29,060
impossible for people to take
this evidence at face value

1394
01:25:29,980 --> 01:25:33,660
which is that I think what we
might call cosmic teleology

1395
01:25:33,660 --> 01:25:36,220
there's but as so.
So I think there's strong

1396
01:25:36,220 --> 01:25:39,340
evidence for cosmic teleology
for some kind of directedness

1397
01:25:39,340 --> 01:25:43,910
towards life, but also strong
evidence against the Omni guard.

1398
01:25:43,950 --> 01:25:46,550
And so I'm exploring positions
in between.

1399
01:25:46,670 --> 01:25:49,710
So, Philip, so sorry to cut you
off there, but within this

1400
01:25:49,710 --> 01:25:52,670
cosmic teleology, where do you
think it's headed then after

1401
01:25:52,670 --> 01:25:56,510
humans and life, Do you think
artificial intelligence is sort

1402
01:25:56,510 --> 01:25:58,710
of the next step and then we're
gonna move forward from there?

1403
01:25:58,710 --> 01:26:00,030
What?
What do you think is happening?

1404
01:26:02,510 --> 01:26:07,030
God knows nobody knows.
So look it it so I as I say, I

1405
01:26:07,030 --> 01:26:11,410
think there is there is very
strong evidence in could change

1406
01:26:11,410 --> 01:26:14,370
tomorrow.
But science as we have it now is

1407
01:26:14,370 --> 01:26:16,570
very strong evidence for sort of
directedness to his life.

1408
01:26:17,850 --> 01:26:21,330
Maybe that's the end of it maybe
maybe maybe this is this is this

1409
01:26:21,330 --> 01:26:24,890
is the the end of the cosmic
purpose as it were.

1410
01:26:25,490 --> 01:26:28,130
But in a way you might think
that's kind of improbable to

1411
01:26:28,130 --> 01:26:32,450
think that you know we're the
culmination of this cosmic

1412
01:26:32,450 --> 01:26:35,790
story.
So you might you know we we

1413
01:26:35,790 --> 01:26:38,830
might speculate that this that
it's it's it's it's still

1414
01:26:38,830 --> 01:26:47,710
unfolding some kind of greater
reality is is yet to come but

1415
01:26:47,990 --> 01:26:50,470
that that that would that that
would be somewhat speculative.

1416
01:26:50,470 --> 01:26:57,110
I always like a hero of mine
growing up, the heretical

1417
01:26:57,110 --> 01:27:02,080
Catholic priest Taya de Jardin,
who had this, you know, he was,

1418
01:27:02,400 --> 01:27:06,840
you know, early days after
Darwin and parts of the church

1419
01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:09,680
were sort of worried about what
to do with Darwin.

1420
01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:12,840
But he was inspired by the idea
of evolution and the idea of an

1421
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:17,120
evolving cosmos.
And you know, he thought there

1422
01:27:17,400 --> 01:27:23,240
was these great leaps of life
and sentience and self

1423
01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:29,810
consciousness and he, he thought
the next stage would be people,

1424
01:27:29,810 --> 01:27:32,770
humans getting more
informationally connected up and

1425
01:27:32,770 --> 01:27:35,890
this bringing about a new form
of life and consciousness that

1426
01:27:35,890 --> 01:27:39,410
he called the New Sphere.
So some people think, you know,

1427
01:27:39,410 --> 01:27:41,810
if we look at the way we're all
connected up with the Internet

1428
01:27:41,810 --> 01:27:45,050
and WhatsApp and stuff, maybe
he's under something.

1429
01:27:45,050 --> 01:27:48,170
But I mean, he could have, Who
knows?

1430
01:27:48,450 --> 01:27:49,930
I think that still might be
possible.

1431
01:27:49,930 --> 01:27:51,770
We don't even know.
But I think but I you know, I

1432
01:27:51,770 --> 01:27:58,550
think it's I think it's I think
it's it's a good life to live in

1433
01:27:58,550 --> 01:28:02,710
hope that there is some point to
it all and that what we do

1434
01:28:03,630 --> 01:28:06,350
contributes in some way to some
greater purpose.

1435
01:28:06,350 --> 01:28:10,190
I find doing that helps me keep
my ego in check that I'm not

1436
01:28:10,190 --> 01:28:13,870
just thinking of my success.
I'm just thinking I'm just

1437
01:28:13,870 --> 01:28:18,030
contributing in some way to some
some some greater purpose.

1438
01:28:18,030 --> 01:28:22,310
And you know maybe there isn't a
greater purpose and you know but

1439
01:28:23,470 --> 01:28:26,110
we'll never know and I think
it's it's it's it's.

1440
01:28:26,230 --> 01:28:29,190
It's a good way to live, to live
in hope of that.

1441
01:28:29,190 --> 01:28:32,950
I think it's like happiness
conducive former life, so.

1442
01:28:33,510 --> 01:28:36,950
Would you describe your
religious of if you had to pick

1443
01:28:36,950 --> 01:28:40,270
one, would it be more of a
daistic God rather than theistic

1444
01:28:40,310 --> 01:28:44,950
sort of omniscient omnipotent,
interactive God?

1445
01:28:45,030 --> 01:28:47,070
Would yours be more daistic?
You started off.

1446
01:28:47,070 --> 01:28:51,310
Let the cosmetology just roll
and whatever happens happens.

1447
01:28:52,030 --> 01:28:58,240
So we need some kind of
explanation of why the source of

1448
01:28:58,240 --> 01:29:00,920
cosmic teleology you know, why
things aren't better.

1449
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:07,120
We need a plausible hypothesis
that explains, can explain the,

1450
01:29:07,400 --> 01:29:09,960
you know, the director of stores
Life, but can explain why things

1451
01:29:09,960 --> 01:29:14,800
aren't better, why this source
of cosmic teleology is not more

1452
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:18,280
evident.
So look, I I explore a variety

1453
01:29:18,280 --> 01:29:21,480
of options.
One is just teleological laws

1454
01:29:21,480 --> 01:29:25,400
that Thomas Nagle explored in
his 2012 Bookmind and Cosmos.

1455
01:29:25,400 --> 01:29:30,000
Just so this isn't a kind of
mind, it's just impersonal laws

1456
01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:32,680
of nature that with sort of
purposes built into them.

1457
01:29:34,960 --> 01:29:38,320
Another is is some kind of
something closer to the to the

1458
01:29:39,640 --> 01:29:43,560
the traditional God as a sort of
mind, but a nonstandard designer

1459
01:29:43,560 --> 01:29:46,800
maybe of limited power.
So maybe they really care, Maybe

1460
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:50,000
they're trying to do stuff, but
maybe they yeah, maybe all they

1461
01:29:50,000 --> 01:29:53,240
could do was kick things off.
Or maybe they've got limited

1462
01:29:53,240 --> 01:29:58,790
powers of of of intervention.
Or maybe it's it's the

1463
01:29:58,790 --> 01:30:03,790
simulation hypothesis.
Maybe they're just some you know

1464
01:30:04,070 --> 01:30:08,150
scientists in the next universe
up trying out a simulation to

1465
01:30:08,150 --> 01:30:10,990
see see what comes of it that
that would be a cosmic teleology

1466
01:30:10,990 --> 01:30:13,710
hypothesis.
One more naturalistically

1467
01:30:13,710 --> 01:30:17,390
inclined people tend to like all
cosmosychism is is the other

1468
01:30:17,390 --> 01:30:18,830
one.
I consider that the, you know,

1469
01:30:18,830 --> 01:30:23,890
if we already think the universe
is a kind of mind because of our

1470
01:30:23,890 --> 01:30:28,610
pan psychist views, then it
starts to be less mysterious

1471
01:30:28,610 --> 01:30:32,290
that there might be some kind of
limited goal directedness in it.

1472
01:30:32,290 --> 01:30:34,730
So I'm open to all those
possibilities, you know, in

1473
01:30:34,730 --> 01:30:38,610
terms of my religious practice,
I think for me it's more about

1474
01:30:40,250 --> 01:30:45,930
bringing the community together,
you know, marking that the

1475
01:30:45,930 --> 01:30:49,050
seasons and the the big moments
of life.

1476
01:30:49,530 --> 01:30:56,800
You know, giving my kids a moral
example, connecting individuals

1477
01:30:56,800 --> 01:31:02,880
in the community up to something
greater and you know, inspiring

1478
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:05,400
moral action in the community,
things like that.

1479
01:31:05,400 --> 01:31:09,080
And so I think, you know all
these things are all these

1480
01:31:09,080 --> 01:31:13,560
matters are very uncertain and
but you've got to live your life

1481
01:31:13,560 --> 01:31:18,960
and I I think people are too
folk when it comes to religion.

1482
01:31:18,960 --> 01:31:22,570
A lot of people are too focused
on is it true, is it not true

1483
01:31:22,570 --> 01:31:26,290
And I think, you know, I think
a, a, I, I personally think for

1484
01:31:26,290 --> 01:31:28,650
some people at least a
religiously engaged life with

1485
01:31:28,650 --> 01:31:32,010
the community and the spiritual
practice and is is a wonderful

1486
01:31:32,010 --> 01:31:34,730
way to live your life.
And you know if it if it turns

1487
01:31:34,730 --> 01:31:38,250
out all to be nonsense, you've.
I still think you've gained much

1488
01:31:38,250 --> 01:31:41,850
in terms of a rich life and lost
little really.

1489
01:31:41,850 --> 01:31:47,130
But you know, rather than sort
of, you know, some people have

1490
01:31:47,130 --> 01:31:49,370
no interest in religion and I'm
not, I'm not interested to

1491
01:31:49,370 --> 01:31:53,270
persuade them, but I I suspect
there are many liberal minded

1492
01:31:53,270 --> 01:31:56,550
people who would get a lot out
of it but think it's kind of

1493
01:31:57,510 --> 01:32:00,270
Richard Dawkins has told them
it's stupid or you know, how do

1494
01:32:00,270 --> 01:32:04,590
we know it's true.
And you know, whereas I think

1495
01:32:04,590 --> 01:32:08,070
you know, engaging with
community and tradition can be a

1496
01:32:08,070 --> 01:32:12,950
wonderful thing and people can.
He mentioned he's a fan of your

1497
01:32:12,950 --> 01:32:16,380
work is Raymond Tallis.
And something I like that he

1498
01:32:16,380 --> 01:32:19,620
said, well this when we spoke he
actually told me now that I

1499
01:32:19,620 --> 01:32:22,900
realized I realized if he asked
me a couple questions to ask you

1500
01:32:23,420 --> 01:32:25,980
and I forgot to take them down
before this interview.

1501
01:32:26,300 --> 01:32:29,220
But then again we were meant to
do it tomorrow.

1502
01:32:29,220 --> 01:32:30,900
So I was I was planning on doing
that.

1503
01:32:30,900 --> 01:32:33,620
But nevertheless, he's a big fan
of your work and he finds it

1504
01:32:33,620 --> 01:32:36,060
very fascinating.
And something he said that I

1505
01:32:36,060 --> 01:32:39,740
really liked was he's he's
ontologically agnostic about

1506
01:32:39,740 --> 01:32:42,980
everything but but there are
certain epistemologies that you

1507
01:32:42,980 --> 01:32:44,140
can tell.
I just.

1508
01:32:45,090 --> 01:32:49,330
Really, just incorrect.
But when you're talking about

1509
01:32:49,330 --> 01:32:51,490
religion, when you're talking
about life, all of this, you

1510
01:32:51,490 --> 01:32:53,290
have to be ontologically
agnostic.

1511
01:32:53,650 --> 01:32:57,050
We don't have the answers.
That's just the bottom line.

1512
01:32:57,770 --> 01:33:01,490
And I think that's a really cool
statement to make.

1513
01:33:02,010 --> 01:33:07,110
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And my wife's text me.

1514
01:33:07,110 --> 01:33:10,870
I think I'm going to have to
attend to some family matters in

1515
01:33:10,870 --> 01:33:14,230
in the not too distant future
but but just sorry just to throw

1516
01:33:14,230 --> 01:33:18,350
that in.
But yeah no I I I totally agree

1517
01:33:18,350 --> 01:33:19,190
with that.
I think.

1518
01:33:19,630 --> 01:33:23,430
I think people a lot of people
on both we we used again it's

1519
01:33:23,430 --> 01:33:25,990
coming back.
We're used to the the epistemic

1520
01:33:25,990 --> 01:33:28,310
vices of the religious.
We used to the idea that

1521
01:33:28,310 --> 01:33:30,710
religious people might be
clinging to certainties.

1522
01:33:31,630 --> 01:33:35,410
But I think that's very present
for a lot of people on the

1523
01:33:35,410 --> 01:33:38,010
scientist side as well.
You know, I think Daniel

1524
01:33:38,010 --> 01:33:42,290
Dennett, he needs to believe
this stuff for it.

1525
01:33:42,290 --> 01:33:43,610
You know, he believes to
believe.

1526
01:33:43,610 --> 01:33:46,730
It's obvious and it's, you know,
for a sense of identity and I

1527
01:33:46,730 --> 01:33:49,450
think.
So like Ricky G Base, he has to

1528
01:33:49,450 --> 01:33:50,850
sort of have this.
Yeah.

1529
01:33:51,410 --> 01:33:57,330
That's painted, I think, yeah, I
I I think, you know.

1530
01:33:57,330 --> 01:34:01,490
Yeah.
Just this kind of uncertainty is

1531
01:34:01,490 --> 01:34:10,460
unsettling to a lot of people.
I think, you know, I just, you

1532
01:34:10,500 --> 01:34:12,740
you'll never know.
You've got one life, you know,

1533
01:34:12,740 --> 01:34:16,900
and you have your best.
Agnostic.

1534
01:34:18,860 --> 01:34:22,220
I think that's, yeah, to put it.
Or you can have your best guess

1535
01:34:22,260 --> 01:34:28,660
and you know, it doesn't have to
be, you know, I'm certain or

1536
01:34:28,660 --> 01:34:31,020
it's a load of nonsense.
I mean, I I've never had a

1537
01:34:31,020 --> 01:34:35,120
mystical experience, but I have.
I have what I would describe as

1538
01:34:35,120 --> 01:34:38,440
spiritual experiences to the
some often with morning or

1539
01:34:38,440 --> 01:34:44,400
evening light or, you know,
watching my kids play or

1540
01:34:44,400 --> 01:34:48,080
something, you know, a sense
that there's a way things are

1541
01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:51,280
supposed to be or there's a
there's a greater reality at the

1542
01:34:51,280 --> 01:34:54,240
root of things.
And most people think you've

1543
01:34:54,240 --> 01:34:56,840
either got to think, Oh yeah,
that's definitely right, or

1544
01:34:56,840 --> 01:34:58,800
you've got to think, no, that's
nonsense.

1545
01:34:58,800 --> 01:35:04,880
But a middle ways to sort of
engage with that, Take it

1546
01:35:04,880 --> 01:35:12,240
seriously, work with it in your
spiritual practice, and you'll

1547
01:35:12,240 --> 01:35:15,840
never know one way or the other,
but you can maybe live a richer

1548
01:35:15,840 --> 01:35:22,520
life through engaging
tentatively those experiences.

1549
01:35:23,040 --> 01:35:24,880
Beautiful Philip, you're already
touching on that.

1550
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:28,400
But like concluding, this is
obviously called mind body

1551
01:35:28,400 --> 01:35:31,760
solution.
I mean, you're already touching

1552
01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:34,060
on it, but.
How would you say we should move

1553
01:35:34,060 --> 01:35:37,660
forward in order to get one step
closer to that mind body

1554
01:35:37,660 --> 01:35:44,060
solution?
We're a long way from the final

1555
01:35:44,060 --> 01:35:46,940
answer.
Humans always think they're at

1556
01:35:46,940 --> 01:35:49,420
the end of history and we're
kind of there.

1557
01:35:49,420 --> 01:35:53,780
We just need to, you know, dot a
few i's and cross a few t's, you

1558
01:35:53,780 --> 01:35:55,700
know?
So I think that that needs to be

1559
01:35:55,700 --> 01:35:59,840
the starting point.
What I'm most passionate about.

1560
01:35:59,840 --> 01:36:02,880
And he's we're going from what
we what we don't know.

1561
01:36:02,880 --> 01:36:07,400
Here's one thing I feel most
confident about is that

1562
01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:13,440
consciousness is not just
another scientific problem.

1563
01:36:13,880 --> 01:36:18,680
And the reason it's not another
scientific problem is that we're

1564
01:36:18,680 --> 01:36:23,560
not dealing with some public
observation and experiments.

1565
01:36:23,560 --> 01:36:25,920
We're not dealing.
It's a very different kind of

1566
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:28,590
data.
We're dealing with something

1567
01:36:28,990 --> 01:36:34,310
that's privately known and
trying to explain this privately

1568
01:36:34,310 --> 01:36:38,550
known reality.
You know, science is used to

1569
01:36:38,550 --> 01:36:42,310
dealing with things you can't
observe, but that's in the

1570
01:36:42,830 --> 01:36:47,030
that's we postulate things you
can't observe to explain what

1571
01:36:47,030 --> 01:36:49,150
you can observe.
In all of the cases, the task of

1572
01:36:49,150 --> 01:36:53,390
science is explaining the data
of experiments or observation.

1573
01:36:53,950 --> 01:36:56,190
This is a totally different
explanatory project.

1574
01:36:56,710 --> 01:36:58,230
We're trying, we're not trying
to do that.

1575
01:36:58,230 --> 01:37:01,550
We're trying to explain this
privately known reality.

1576
01:37:01,750 --> 01:37:04,510
So we're not even at first base.
We've got to get onto that.

1577
01:37:04,750 --> 01:37:07,230
This isn't just another
scientific problem.

1578
01:37:08,390 --> 01:37:12,310
It's a philosophical problem.
It's how we bring together what

1579
01:37:12,310 --> 01:37:17,470
we know about scientifically and
what we know about privately,

1580
01:37:18,350 --> 01:37:21,630
trying to meld them together.
And, you know, so we still got,

1581
01:37:21,630 --> 01:37:24,510
you know, debating on all Seth.
And he's saying, Oh well, what

1582
01:37:24,510 --> 01:37:26,310
are the predictions of pun
psychism?

1583
01:37:26,310 --> 01:37:28,910
What does, you know, what
scientific experiments?

1584
01:37:29,470 --> 01:37:32,710
That's that's not at first base
because that's seeing it.

1585
01:37:32,830 --> 01:37:35,230
That's seeing it as just a
scientific problem.

1586
01:37:35,230 --> 01:37:38,310
And it's not just a scientific
problem, you, you pun.

1587
01:37:38,310 --> 01:37:39,910
Psychism might be wrong.
There are lots of good

1588
01:37:39,910 --> 01:37:43,390
challenges, but treated as a
philosophical problem, not a

1589
01:37:43,390 --> 01:37:45,670
scientific.
So we've got to understand the

1590
01:37:45,670 --> 01:37:48,470
nature, the philosophical
underpinnings.

1591
01:37:49,270 --> 01:37:51,790
We've gone from pretend, you
know, in the latter half of the

1592
01:37:51,790 --> 01:37:54,910
20th century, people pretended
consciousness didn't exist to

1593
01:37:54,910 --> 01:38:00,030
avoid the problem.
Since the 90s, the 1990s, we

1594
01:38:00,030 --> 01:38:03,750
take the problem seriously.
But too many people still think,

1595
01:38:04,150 --> 01:38:05,990
just do more neuroscience and
we'll solve it.

1596
01:38:06,150 --> 01:38:08,670
We need to see the philosophical
underpinnings of the problem.

1597
01:38:08,870 --> 01:38:12,710
We need to see that it's
fundamentally a task of how we

1598
01:38:12,710 --> 01:38:16,270
bring these things together as
philosophers, ultimately

1599
01:38:16,350 --> 01:38:18,350
scientifically informed
philosophers.

1600
01:38:19,240 --> 01:38:23,800
Once we get there, I think we'll
be at least on our, at least on

1601
01:38:23,800 --> 01:38:26,000
the first stage.
And I think just that first

1602
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:31,120
stage actually will in itself
necessitate a kind of revolution

1603
01:38:31,120 --> 01:38:34,800
in in how we think about
science, how we think about the

1604
01:38:34,800 --> 01:38:36,400
way we know about the world
around us.

1605
01:38:36,400 --> 01:38:40,160
So, so yeah, exciting times
ahead.

1606
01:38:40,680 --> 01:38:42,040
I think that's a beautiful way
to end.

1607
01:38:42,040 --> 01:38:43,800
Philip, thank you so much for
your time.

1608
01:38:44,160 --> 01:38:47,080
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Thanks, Tevin.

1609
01:38:47,080 --> 01:38:48,840
It's been lovely finally
speaking with you.

1610
01:38:48,840 --> 01:38:51,520
I hope we get to chat.
Yeah, I mean, I'm looking

1611
01:38:51,520 --> 01:38:53,560
forward to it.
Hopefully after your book comes

1612
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:56,200
out, we can have another chat.
But I really appreciate your

1613
01:38:56,200 --> 01:38:58,360
time.
I mean, this is and please just

1614
01:38:58,360 --> 01:39:01,040
continue doing the work you're
doing, cuz as I said, the more

1615
01:39:01,040 --> 01:39:05,160
diverse the views, the
philosophical arguments as we

1616
01:39:05,160 --> 01:39:08,160
spoke about, not neuroscience
but philosophy.

1617
01:39:08,800 --> 01:39:11,120
The more diverse and the more
people like you come out and

1618
01:39:11,120 --> 01:39:13,280
speak about it, the more we can
engage in this topic.

1619
01:39:13,280 --> 01:39:15,400
And this podcast would not exist
without people like you.

1620
01:39:15,760 --> 01:39:19,400
So thank you so much for that.
Thank you very much.

1621
01:39:19,600 --> 01:39:20,320
We'll see you again.