Peter Sjöstedt-Hughes: What is Exogenous Mind Theory? Metaphysics, Psychedelics, & Mind At Large

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If you're interesting
consciousness, if you're

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interesting flossing minds, why
not explore that whole amazing

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cosmos of different forms of
experience, forms of experience

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which you know you can't really
explain?

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If certain psychedelic induced
mystical experiences are

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ineffable, if you can't put them
into words and you can't report

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them, then you can't get a
neural correlate to them either.

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Let's say that you did further
tests to determine whether

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certain psychedelics decreased
brain activity.

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Whilst the report was of intense
rich experience ordered to

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experience.
That would be a fascinating

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finding, wouldn't it?
That would actually be a way of

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empirically getting into
metaphysics, and it's

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psychedelics that would allow
for such tests because it

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temporarily changes functioning
of normal prosaic brain

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functioning.
So yeah, there's a lot of

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interesting things yet to
discover.

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Peter, if you had to give me a
philosophical history of the

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mind body problem, what would
you tell me?

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What story would you craft and
which historical figures come to

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mind when you think of the
story?

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Well, I suppose a traditional
story that shopping hotels is

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from Descartes.
I mean, Descartes seems to think

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that, you know, with him the
whole problem about essentially

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upward causation, downward
causation begins when their

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interaction.
But of course, you know, in the

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West we see, we see notions of
the mind, of course, in the

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classic philosophers, Plato,
Aristotle, of course, you know,

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with regard to, you know, the
soul, the forms, teleology, what

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not, What story would I tell?
I still like to tell the

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Cartesian story, to be honest,
because I think that because I

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quite, I take quite radical
views of the mind.

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I would maybe less radical these
days, but I like to always go

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into the the sort of modern
history as to why people think

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that's radical, why they think
it's strange and whatever.

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So I like to go, yeah, take that
Cartesian root of the classic

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Cartesian dualism.
But then I also like the history

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of idealism, you know, which is
kind of lost, I think to certain

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extent, especially British
idealism or absolute idealism.

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I was just reading a text on it
the other day and it said that

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for many reasons, but partly
because of the war, the Great

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War, there was a big antagonism
towards against Germany and

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against nationalism.
And as a result that kind of

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German based idealism which
became heavily prominent in

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Britain was kind of was kind of
left alone.

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So you get this history of
philosophy from Mil to Russell

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and you skip like 50 years in
the late sort of 19, thirty 20th

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century.
So I always like to go through

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that.
British idealism basically came

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out of Hegel mostly, you know,
starting with with Green, ending

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with FH Bradley.
And then, you know, from FH

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Bradley's appearance in reality
1893 as a kind of advance of

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that, I, you get Whitehead's
philosophy for North Whitehead's

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philosophy.
I mean, he called his main book

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Process in reality because it
came out of, you know, based on

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Bradley's appearance in reality.
It was seen as a sort of realist

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advance on that idealism,
although Bradley himself didn't

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know whether he was a realist or
idealist.

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But anyway, so to understand
Whitehead, it's good to look at,

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you know, to understand Bradley
really.

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And to understand Bradley, you
know, you go through the British

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idealist, absolute idealists,
and then you realize, well, you

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really got to know Hegel a bit.
And then if you, to understand

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Hegel can't, can't live in its
wolf and so on, then you go back

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to where it all began,
essentially with the ancient

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Greeks.
So, yeah, but my own particular

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interests, I would say at the
moment at least lie around that

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kind of lost history of absolute
idealism, which kind of

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predominant philosophy in the
English speaking world for 50

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years.
I'm glad you brought up idealism

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because when I read your work
and when I explore it, a big

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part of me thought about why
you're not an idealist instead

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of a pan psychist.
So do you want to touch on that?

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Sure.
Funnily enough, I'm I'm

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currently writing a review of
Bernardo Kastrup's Analytic

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Idealism, his latest book.
Can I say we can get into that

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if you want later.
But why?

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First of all, I wouldn't say, I
would say that panpsychism and

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idealism are not mutually
exclusive.

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You say you get, for example, in
live Nets, both I would say, you

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know, and perhaps in Whitehead
he's, you know, it depends how

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you define idealism.
And I should say that I was, I

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did count myself amongst the
idealists years ago.

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So first of all, getting
introduced to Kant, to manual

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Kant first Critique University
and sort of blew my mind.

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And, and you know, because
there's something quite

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rational, quite reasonable.
It's still influential today.

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Of course, even the modern
theories of predictive

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processing, whatever, you can
sort of press that back to count

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to some extent.
But but then shock now took hold

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of me because it's sort of an
advance upon count in a way that

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will was actually something that
was, it was the thing in itself

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that you could know within
yourself at least that seemed an

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advance.
And and a Nietzsche coming out.

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Schopenhauer kind of changed my
ethical views quite radically.

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Yeah.
But but then I also studied

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books on at Warwick University
with Keith Ansell Pearson.

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I did Hegel with Stephen
Holgate.

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So I got into all of that.
I had a good mix really.

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And Barth University, you know,
I especially went into Alfred N

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Whitehead's thought, as I said,
because it seems like the kind

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of culmination of a lot of this
idealism.

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I mean, I could go into it.
I mean, the the great thing

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about Whitehead is, you know,
that can't tell copernical

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Copernicus revolution was due to
partly due to Hume on causation

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saying we can never directly
perceive causation.

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Whiteheads, Whitehead argued
that actually you can directly

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perceive causation and that's
the same thing as perception

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prehension for him and same
thing as memory.

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And he put it all together in
this very parsimonious way.

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But as a result it made can't,
can't critical philosophy

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superfluous, you know, because
it was it was sort of reaction

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to something that Hume got
wrong.

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Anyway, you know, 1 keeps
reading and I'm sure my views

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will change as time goes on.
Well.

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I guess I might have jumped the
gun a bit.

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Let's let's let's start off by
defining consciousness before.

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So before we continue into your
actual views and how it differs

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from your typical pancycis of
your idealist view, how would

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you define consciousness?
Well, I I was a precious

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question in a tripartite
fashion.

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You can see I've been asked this
before.

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I teach philosophy mind today.
So I, I, my, my general answer

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is the approach to take which I
find the most useful is to

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divide it into three parts.
The first part is to ask what

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the contents of consciousness
are.

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So that would include, you know,
colours, sound sense, emotions,

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feelings, will time rates, time
flows, stuff like that.

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Qualia, controversial words, but
I think as a generic term it's

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fine.
So that's the first thing, you

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know, it's sort of, one can talk
about these different types of

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consciousness.
Absolutely.

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Second part of the answer is to
talk about the differentiators

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of consciousness from non
consciousness generally matter,

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but that's what is matters just
as difficult, right.

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So that would be things like but
these are all like, you know,

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like more purported
differentiators.

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So like privacy, for example, or
non spatiality with Descartes or

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non inferentiality or or you
know, and so on and so forth.

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All these sort of, you know,
like purported things that make

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mind teleology, you know, things
that make mind different from

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matter.
But all of those are

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questionable, right?
So in answering the question,

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what is consciousness?
You, you, you have to put

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forward all these questionable
theories, right?

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Some of them probably right,
some probably wrong.

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And then the third part of the
answer to the question what is

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consciousness is the relations
of consciousness to non

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consciousness.
So then you get into the isms,

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you know, so then, you know,
dualism, different times of

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physicalism, emergentism,
epiphenomenalism, idealism,

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absolute monism, you know, the
transcendent even and so on and

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so forth, all of which, as you
know, in fact the purpose of

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this podcast highly debatable.
So, you know, yeah, so I think

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basically to answer the question
was consciousness, you just have

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to go through a whole array of
questionable theories to even

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begin.
So I don't think there's any

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sort of absolute answer to that.
I was speaking to Stuart

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Hameroff about this, about I
think it was a week ago, and he

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was talking about how in 1994
when David Chalmers mentioned

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the hard problem that their
intention was to spend the

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entire weekend, the first day
was to define consciousness, but

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they spent the entire week and
then stuck on the definition.

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So it seems like this is really
a problematic aspect of trying

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to discuss consciousness.
What are your thoughts?

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Well, I mean, you know, it's, I
think plus we mind really is

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concerned with that question and
the third part of the answer,

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you know, the different,
different sort of relationships.

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Although of course, it's been
focused really on physicalism

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and dualism in the 20th century.
I think that's changing a bit

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now.
But yeah, no, it's no easy

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option.
And if you're an idealist, of

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course, or a certain type of
idealist, Hey Gillian, maybe

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then consciousness is the same
thing as reality anyway.

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So you know, and to us what is
reality?

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It's, you know, deepest, most
fundamental of all questions.

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So I don't know the answer to
this.

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You've.
Got a nice grasp of the history

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of philosophy of mind.
I noticed when you talk about

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it, when you write about it,
you, you really have studied

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this very well and you
articulate your answers very

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well as well and it's enjoyable
to listen to it.

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What do you think is the reason
for this current shift from most

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materialist, physicalist
theories of consciousness slowly

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transitioning into this pen
psychist or idealist framework?

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Why do you think this is
happening?

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I mean, it's I, I think
multifaceted reasonings as

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always, you know, there's no.
There is no, there is no yes or

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no questions here.
It's just.

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Yeah.
Well, yes.

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Well, I think, I think, you
know, on the surface level,

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David Chalmers and yeah, talking
about, you know, renaming an old

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problem, mind, body, body
problem, hard problem,

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consciousness just brought to
light the fact that nothing was

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really satisfactory.
None of this sort of general

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answers are satisfactory of the
20th century at least.

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So because of that, you know,
sort of cul-de-sac with a hard

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problem, people went back to the
drawing board as well and looked

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to the past for possible ways of
approaching this question.

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And that's I think why, for
example, panpsychism came back

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into onto the book table
because, you know, this has got

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a great pedigree.
RG Collingwood, you know, in The

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idea of Nature, he writes that,
you know, the ancient Greeks

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thought that the whole of nature
was alive.

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That was their metaphor for
reality, you know, an Organism.

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And then we sort of moved into
the metaphor of the machine.

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And then he said we're now
moving into the metaphor of

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history with evolution and so
on.

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But, but I think that.
Yeah, no.

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So.
So we've got, there's a great

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pedigree in panpsychism with the
Greeks, with Renaissance

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thinkers.
I mean, it was Patricia, the

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Renaissance thinker who coined
the panpsychism.

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Interestingly, if you read that,
though, it means what we today

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probably define more as
pantheism.

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So the meanings changed and you
know, as a as a kind of semi

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Whiteheadian, we prefer the word
pan experientialism, but I just

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see that as a type of
panpsychism really.

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Yeah.
So that's so so, yeah.

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And then there's great thinkers
who are panpsychists, you know,

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like I mentioned a few already,
Leibniz, Spinoza, Russell,

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arguably Whitehead then, and
many others in contemporary

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world, Galen Strawson, you know,
and so on.

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Yeah, go on.
No, no, no.

225
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,680
So that's one reason.
I mean, so, so yeah, like, you

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00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:40,200
know, we've come to cul-de-sac
this great pedigree of pan

227
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,560
psychist thinkers.
So people are approaching pan

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00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:47,680
psychism again, that's on the
sort of logical surface level.

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00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,280
I think there are deeper, not
deeper, but other socio

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00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,120
economic, political factors as
well.

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00:12:55,120 --> 00:13:01,120
So, you know, relating to the
church and the, you know, the

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00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:06,480
sort of battle between the sort
of the middle classes, the

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00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:11,280
bourgeois and the clergy and so
on and sort of, yeah, this and

234
00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,800
that.
I mean, yeah, multifaceted.

235
00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,000
And it's it's pretty impossible
to prove anything, you know?

236
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,600
Yeah, it's so multifactorial.
It's very hard to pin down

237
00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,440
certain reasons because I do
believe if if Nixon hadn't with

238
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,760
Timothy Leary, if all of that
hadn't happened, I believe that

239
00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,360
pan psychosole idealists would
be, I think it would be more of

240
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:32,840
a thriving philosophy at this
point.

241
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,240
Well, yeah.
Well, it's interesting.

242
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,000
In factorial so I do know that
it's not a single entity.

243
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,440
No, no, absolutely.
Yeah.

244
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,840
I I mean, I think if the war
didn't happen, things would be

245
00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,440
extremely different for sure.
Timothy Leary and the hell sort

246
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,040
of psychedelic 60s outburst.
I mean, you know, like the pit.

247
00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,920
The the great pity about that
was that there were

248
00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,280
intellectuals looking at
psychedelic consciousness, you

249
00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,480
know, like Humphrey Osmond did
coined psychedelic and

250
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,400
hallucinogen and Aldous Haxley.
And you know, they, they they

251
00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,440
organized this this great
gathering in the 50s, in the

252
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,440
1950s called Outsight where they
were they invited Einstein and

253
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,800
Jung and AJ and you know, and so
on.

254
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,560
Was that AJ Anyway some great
thinkers together to take

255
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:21,160
mescaline and then write about
it.

256
00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,320
You know, that was 1950s.
They almost got it all together.

257
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:25,560
All the fun, you know, promised
funding from the Ford

258
00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,800
Foundation.
But in the end Ford Foundation

259
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:29,680
pulled the plug and didn't go
ahead.

260
00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,240
You know, some 10 years later
then Timothy Leary messes it all

261
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,720
up.
So yeah, I think, you know,

262
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,480
psychedelic research would have
steamed ahead had there not been

263
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,560
for that.
I don't just blame Leary, of

264
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,000
course.
I mean, it was the IT was the

265
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,640
political situation that also
suppressed it.

266
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,320
I mean again, interesting
histories there, but.

267
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,280
This.
Goes back, I should say just

268
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,680
quickly, it also relates to the,
you know, colonization of the

269
00:14:55,680 --> 00:15:01,440
Americas when the sort of
Iberians prohibited psychedelic

270
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,600
drugs, you know, when they came
across them in South America,

271
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:09,440
middle America, and also related
to the American temperance

272
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,800
movement against alcohol, you
know, so that interrelates to

273
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,080
the church especially, you know,
it's, you know, that

274
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,560
fascinating.
Before we get into the

275
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,640
philosophy of psychedelics, I
think to touch on the

276
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,000
consciousness aspect here.
You mentioned you're going to

277
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,040
write a piece on Bernardo
Kastrup's analytic idealism.

278
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,880
What is this going to be about?
And and if you could, how would

279
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,400
you really define your view of
consciousness?

280
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,120
Or do you consider yourself a
panpsychosist?

281
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,400
Because I know you wrote your
your PhD on panpsychism, but

282
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,160
what is your actual view if you
don't mind me asking?

283
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,880
Yeah, good question.
I think it's a fusion.

284
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,120
I mean, first of all, I, I, I
always say that I don't believe

285
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:50,960
really anything.
I entertain ideas, right?

286
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:55,680
So I'm not absolutely dogmatic
about my view because I know

287
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,200
problems, you know, when you
really get into something, you

288
00:15:58,200 --> 00:15:59,400
know the problem is better than
anyone.

289
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:01,680
So it's hard.
I'm not.

290
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,320
But at the moment my preference
is for a fusion really between

291
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:13,480
Spinoza and Whitehead.
And so it's a kind of, it is a

292
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:14,920
pan psychism.
So I do believe that

293
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:19,240
consciousness or sentience or
mentality runs throughout the

294
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:20,600
whole of nature.
Absolutely.

295
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,880
I believe.
I mean, I'm honest, I think that

296
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,200
might and matter are essentially
the same thing.

297
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,200
So this is a spinootism, you
know, like that it might have

298
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,600
might have been different
attributes or expressions of the

299
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,040
same substance.
But unlike Spinoza with

300
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,920
Whitehead, I'm a process
philosopher as well.

301
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,680
So I believe that, you know
that.

302
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,800
So for Spinoza, you know, the
laws of nature were constant

303
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,200
because of, because essentially
nature was God and it had to be

304
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,560
perfect, right?
So, and that didn't allow for

305
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,280
freedom, mental causation, you
know, effective mental

306
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,720
causation.
Whereas with Whitehead, you've

307
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,920
got this creative universe, this
creative impulse.

308
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:08,200
And so I, I sort of, I always
say, you know, Spinoza plus

309
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,880
Darwin equals Whitehead.
So that's the kind.

310
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,520
So I'm going, so I would, I
would, I would classify myself

311
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,240
as a Whiteheadian, but with
certain caveats.

312
00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:18,319
You know, some of the details in
Whitehead I don't think are

313
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:21,880
necessary, for example, But you
know, like one thing that I

314
00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:25,440
especially think is important
and Whitehead you can also get

315
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,720
on Bergson and Bradley to some
extent, is this amazing concept

316
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:37,400
of prehension, which is means
that it's it's in a way the the

317
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,240
opposite of representation.
It's a form of perception, but

318
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,840
it's not representation.
It's the kind of absorption of

319
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,400
the outside to the object into
the inside as well into the

320
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,320
subjects.
So part of the object becomes

321
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,240
part of the subject.
So the relationship between

322
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,880
appearance and reality is really
the relationship between part

323
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,800
and the whole.
That's a very, you know, so

324
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,720
that's sort of some symbiosis of
bugs and a Whitehead.

325
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,640
They admire each other's work.
I think that's extremely

326
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,760
important.
So there's a type of realism as

327
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,400
against idealism.
You know, that you actually do

328
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,760
perceive the outside world.
Now you of course you color it

329
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,520
to a certain extent due to
evolution or whatever, but

330
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,720
there's a certain influx of
reality into our perception.

331
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,800
In fact, part of the outside
becomes part of the inside.

332
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:27,600
And that's the kind of, I think
that concept is especially

333
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,240
important, something I like to
pursue.

334
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,200
So it's a kind of that's part
and it's process relational

335
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,720
philosophy really.
And it's related to the, you

336
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,800
know, 4E cognition and whatever
extended mind, but it's kind of

337
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,480
more original form of it, more
extreme form, really.

338
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,560
So what would you address in
Bernardo Kastrop's idealism in

339
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,160
this piece?
What would be the most important

340
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,200
aspects of it?
Where would you differentiate

341
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,920
yourself from his work?
And which part is part of his

342
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:56,920
work do you admire, if any,
because I'm this is a this is

343
00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:02,000
going to be a critique or a.
We'll see.

344
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,080
I've got a, I've got a funny
relationship with Castro

345
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,720
because, you know, over the
years I've criticized him a bit

346
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,040
on shopping, understanding
shopping and Nietzsche and so

347
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,520
on.
But we did have a conversation

348
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:14,920
recorded actually about a month
ago.

349
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,040
And I think we were really
affable, polite and whatever.

350
00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:22,040
And I did enjoy his book.
You know, I do like the way that

351
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,400
he sort of ruffles up feathers,
especially in the psychedelic

352
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,200
world.
He presents an alternative, at

353
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,440
least makes people think, even
if you don't agree with it

354
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,240
fully.
So anyway, reading his latest

355
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,520
book, Analytic Idealism in a
Nutshell, is a summary book,

356
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,080
really small book.
Yeah.

357
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:40,560
You know, had some good points,
but it's pretty much cantonism.

358
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,920
So there's but not quite
actually it's a mixture between

359
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,400
Kant and Hegel, but neither of
them.

360
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,640
So it's the view that, you know,
we represent the world in a

361
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,840
particular way.
And but the way we represent the

362
00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,840
world is very different from how
the world actually is.

363
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,280
So there's a strong difference
between appearance and reality.

364
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,720
So that phenomena, Numena,
that's the Cantian aspect of it.

365
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,840
And he uses the metaphor of the
dashboard, you know.

366
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,600
So you know, we see the dial in
an airplane.

367
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,640
We see.
You know, let's say the outside

368
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,080
temperature on a dial, of course
that represents the actual world

369
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:18,920
is that is not the actual world.
The dial is not the actual world

370
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,240
itself.
Eddington made the same metaphor

371
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:28,400
interestingly 100 years ago, but
so the outside world is kind of

372
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,800
unknowable to in itself.
But then he makes this argument,

373
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:38,000
which is a bit loose as part of
my review, that it actually

374
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,360
commits a fallacy of the
undistributed middle, I think

375
00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:45,440
fundamentally, But it's the view
that, well, the outside, we

376
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,400
don't know what the outside
world is, but we know it's non

377
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,040
physical.
And what do I know?

378
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:57,000
What, what do I know?
What, what do I know is non

379
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:58,680
physical.
And then he says the mental.

380
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,120
So then he makes this move that
therefore the outside world is

381
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:03,680
mental.
I so simplify it.

382
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,360
But it's it's that's his
idealism.

383
00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:11,680
So it's that in that sense is
like Hegel, you know, so the

384
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,880
whole reality is mental and we
are part of that, but it

385
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,120
differs.
So that's how it's Hegelian

386
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:21,000
sense, but it differs from Hegel
in the sense that for Hegel, you

387
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,400
know, this outside reality is
the sort of logical unfurling of

388
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,920
Geist, you know, it's a very
rational mind as it were, right?

389
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:35,720
Essentially got the absolute,
but for Castro, this outside

390
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,360
mentality, and he uses Huxley's
term mind at large

391
00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:42,760
interestingly, but it doesn't
not in the same way that Huxley

392
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,520
does really following bugs on.
So for Castro, the outside world

393
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,320
is a mind, but it's a very
primitive mind because it hasn't

394
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,280
gone through the sort of
adaptability that evolution

395
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,880
forces upon organisms.
So it's kind of like a goldfish

396
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,960
mind.
It's kind of toddler God, as it

397
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,680
were.
So not quite pantheism.

398
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,840
Yeah, so I, my main difference
is that I believe the

399
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,880
dashboards, the appearance and
reality as I've intimated is

400
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,680
porous.
So imagine a dashboard where

401
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,960
it's got some sort of colored
glass portholes maybe and some

402
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,120
advents coming in, right.
So yes, we do see the world

403
00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:23,400
through glass darkly, but
there's it's not a complete

404
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,080
difference, the degrees of
difference between appearance

405
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,480
and reality.
And that's how that's the

406
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,000
realism.
And the interesting thing,

407
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:36,280
right, is historically, this is
the history, this is the history

408
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:39,440
of, of idealism that was lost
in, in, in the West.

409
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,800
One of the reasons that idealism
was put down is because of the

410
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,680
war and the church and the
bourgeois and the industry and

411
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,360
scientism and whatnot.
But another reason is logical.

412
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:53,440
You know, it actually developed
into realism.

413
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,400
Like I said, Bradley's
appearance in reality was a

414
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:02,360
pivotal moment.
And and that's what I prefer,

415
00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:04,640
you know, this kind of, because
I think otherwise you're really

416
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,400
alienated from nature.
You know, you're sort of in the

417
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:12,240
solipsist world, but with this
prehension, with this sort of

418
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,360
absorption of the outside to the
end, then you avoid that.

419
00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:17,400
And you don't need to assume
solipsism.

420
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,560
And yeah, it just, it just makes
more sense to me.

421
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,200
Realism over
representationalism.

422
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:27,440
So because someone Bernardo
loves working with Don Hoffman

423
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,920
and they, they often talk about
each other's work and when he

424
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,600
does the math and physics, they
seem to come to the conclusion

425
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,760
that we don't see reality as
what it is at all.

426
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,600
So there's there's no sort of
porous dashboard.

427
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,200
It's actually just non existent
and and we've made-up certain

428
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,640
ways to do this.
Do you think that sort of naive

429
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:51,760
realism taking to its absolute
extreme is what if it's true

430
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,320
though?
What if it is something?

431
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,480
What if we really are not seeing
this for what it is?

432
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:58,480
I mean, I get what you're
talking about.

433
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,600
You want this to be some sort of
a real feeling.

434
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,680
But what what if it's not?
How would we go about trying to

435
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,360
disprove that?
I'm not just by the way, I will.

436
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,920
I'll prove it.
So I'm not just like you.

437
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,240
I have not At this point with
this podcast, I have no idea

438
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,000
where I stand.
It's it's getting hotter and

439
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:24,200
harder every day so but become
more and more fascinated by each

440
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,280
theory at this point that I find
proving and disproving many of

441
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:28,760
them is becoming more and more
difficult.

442
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,440
Yeah, but with naive realism, so
like you see reality as it

443
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,320
actually is, I'm I'm not
advocating that.

444
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:36,880
And that's not the realism
really.

445
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,520
That came maybe with more, but
it's not really the realism.

446
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,760
I prefer the organic realism as
it's so-called whiteheads and so

447
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,000
on.
But I think with naive realism,

448
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,960
it's somewhat easy to disprove
because you just consider the

449
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:56,600
fact that, you know, different
perspectives of the same object

450
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,240
will change the color of it.
And might, you know, without

451
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,000
different light sources, there's
different colors.

452
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,440
So it's hard to say that the
sort of, for example, the color

453
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,480
exists out there to a certain
extent.

454
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,240
And of course, we can understand
that different species will have

455
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:15,600
evolved different sense
modalities, you know, and to the

456
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,160
extent that, you know, we can't
even know what they are really,

457
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,920
that was, you know, part of
Nagles famous was allowed to be

458
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,880
a bat essay.
And and the fact that even

459
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,160
within your own self, you see
things differently at different

460
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:29,840
times, especially if you're
taking drugs, right.

461
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,080
So it's hard to say.
Well, there are normal

462
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,680
conditions.
This was actually attempted by a

463
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:36,800
few people.
There are normal conditions,

464
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,960
normal conditions, then this is
the reality.

465
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,480
But I don't think there's such a
thing as normal conditions to to

466
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,840
lose, right.
So, and also, you know, like

467
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,280
what works on calls, rhythm of
duration or time rates, you

468
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:49,720
know, the speed at which you see
things move.

469
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,880
There's no, there's no objective
form of that.

470
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,840
You know, there can't be an
objective form of that.

471
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,880
So you understand, there must
be, you know, I'm sort of

472
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,160
arguing against myself and
that's some extent, but there

473
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,960
must, there must be, I always
take a hybrid view there.

474
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:10,360
There must be certain elements
that we project into reality.

475
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,560
It's very interesting as well
when you look at the space and

476
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,680
different dimensions of space,
you know, like WK Clifford, who

477
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:21,280
was in a Cambridge apostle, he,
he spoke about a worm, A2

478
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,640
dimensional worm and how it
would perceive reality would

479
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,720
perceive Ben's as force, for
example, right.

480
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,960
And you can understand when you
read this, That's right.

481
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,240
You know, so we, we experienced
sort of three-dimensional space,

482
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,880
as it were, and forces.
But in theory, if you increase

483
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,440
the dimensionality of your
perception, you might perceive a

484
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,960
force as not dimension, right?
So, so there's you, you can sort

485
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,240
of conceptually understand how
the way we perceive the world is

486
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,960
not a necessity at all.
Doesn't have to be that way.

487
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:02,920
So that's my idealist angle.
And also my idealist angle is

488
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,880
that consciousness is ubiquitous
throughout the cosmos.

489
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:15,200
But at the same time, it's like
Bradley makes his point that it

490
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:21,240
is an assumption to think that
the feelings let's say you have

491
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,160
are confined within yourself.
Because if you think about pure

492
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,320
experience, you don't make that
distinction between me and the

493
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,800
outside world, right?
That's a later inference.

494
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:39,240
So to think that we only know
our own minds is a really later

495
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,880
derivative position as
intellectual position.

496
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,520
It's not a pure phenomenological
position.

497
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,000
So take, you know, like Bradley
then argues that, you know, we

498
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,480
can share emotions, you know, so
when you, let's say, come into a

499
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:57,480
room and and you suddenly you
sort of lighten up.

500
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,320
Let's say it's party whatever
you see, and you think, well,

501
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,040
why did I lighten up?
OK, because people are smiling

502
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,240
and laughing and saying, hey
Peter welcoming.

503
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,520
And then you think, Oh yeah,
that's good, I appreciate it.

504
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,800
Or this is going to be a fun
night or whatever, or our

505
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,120
emotions somehow part and this
is comes back to the pan

506
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:18,080
psychism.
Now our emotions as Whitehead

507
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,000
believed it, part of what we
call matter or physicality, like

508
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,680
forces.
So not extra to not something

509
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,840
extraneous to forces, but part
of forces.

510
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,720
So we see like electromagnetism,
we think of electromagnetism in

511
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,040
this particular way.
But for Whitehead, there's an

512
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,000
abstraction.
Otherwise any part of the truth,

513
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,600
you know, the real, the full
truth would be that there's an

514
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,080
emotion within light, for
example, you know, explains

515
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:42,720
aesthetic appreciation to an
extent.

516
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:49,080
And so likewise, you know, like
we, you know, seeing others.

517
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,320
It's not just a perceptual kind
of television representation.

518
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,320
It's rather than absorption of
and so on to a certain extent,

519
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,720
but it's on this primitive
level, Liz, that is

520
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,240
subconscious.
So for, for Whitehead at least.

521
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,360
So we, we're not sort of
consciously aware of it, but

522
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,040
nonetheless it influences us as
does sunlight and so on.

523
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,280
Like, you know, sunbathing.
Why not?

524
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,600
Well, Speaking of light, and
most people are going to see the

525
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,720
frequencies of our shirts as
very much the same, but we just

526
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,120
want to clarify that they're not
they're they're probably

527
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,400
slightly different.
It's It's a bit of a naive

528
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,440
fairly different.
But not similar.

529
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,280
Yeah, yeah.
And numerically those distinct.

530
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,720
Yeah, definitely.
Different frequencies here and

531
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,000
there.
Tell me, Peter, if you had to,

532
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:39,240
if you had Huxley, James,
Whitehead, Nietzsche, Spinoza

533
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,880
and Schopenhauer all hanging on
a Cliff, One of them's about to.

534
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,160
Well, all of them are falling,
but you can only save one.

535
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,400
Who would you save and why?
That's harsh.

536
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:51,040
That's.
Harsh.

537
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,480
That's an intense question.
It's probably the darkest

538
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:54,440
question I've asked on this
show.

539
00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:02,160
Well, not shopping now because
he probably, you know, like

540
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:08,800
would want to go.
I I look God.

541
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,200
I guess Nietzsche might also
want to go.

542
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,080
Possibly, no.
I think Nietzsche was an

543
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:15,880
optimist.
Ultimately.

544
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,320
I think it's got a bad Rep that.
But I think I'll bring back

545
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,680
Whitehead, probably because I've
got a few questions for him, you

546
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,360
know?
What would those questions be?

547
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:28,960
What he meant, but you know,
certain.

548
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,720
I mean, it gets so complex
sometimes in some of his works

549
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,000
that you there's multiple
interpretations of it.

550
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:35,440
Actually, no, I wouldn't.
I'll tell you what.

551
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,920
I'll bring back Spinoza because
a chief question about whether

552
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,720
the attribute is a famous thing
as Spinoza.

553
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,080
Spinoza studies about whether
the attributes are subjective or

554
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:46,960
objective.
So I'd ask him about that,

555
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,640
probably, yeah.
Did when you started in this

556
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,880
field, did you have any
preconceived ideas when you

557
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,040
first entered the philosophy
arena?

558
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,960
Let's say, for example, coming
in as a materialist where you

559
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,840
have an emergentist and then
slowly transition into the span

560
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,920
Sankers view.
What what what has been your

561
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:06,040
view at the time and.
How's it?

562
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,880
Well, I yeah, it's interesting.
I mean, you sort of it's related

563
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,280
to obvious you can't avoid
inculcation, right?

564
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,440
You can't avoid being
brainwashed by your culture at a

565
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,240
certain extent, to a full extent
maybe.

566
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,640
So I came in from, I'm half
Swedish, half British, but I've

567
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,640
lived most of my life in
Britain, in Cornwall, came in as

568
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,280
a kind of strict materialist
really, but I've never really

569
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,000
studied it.
So I didn't know whether I was

570
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,000
like an identity theorist or a
an emergentist or an epic

571
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,480
phenomenalist or whatever living
to this.

572
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,680
But obviously there was just
matter and mind came out of

573
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,640
brains, certain activity in the
brain we which we are yet to

574
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,760
discover.
That was my general view.

575
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:53,760
And and but then when I started
to actually study, that was my

576
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,760
default view, right.
And it's kind of what I was

577
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,280
taught.
It was kind of subconsciously

578
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,640
taught in schools.
You know, it was never

579
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,000
explicitly told, you know, this
is the reality.

580
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,960
It's just one of those unwritten
assumptions that really

581
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,520
influence people because the
unquestioned and you, you don't

582
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,000
bring it to consciousness.
But when I looked into it, I saw

583
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,480
that there were different types
of materialism.

584
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,120
So then which one do you
believe, Right.

585
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:26,440
And then I, when you look into
the history, you realize why

586
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,800
people why I actually believe
that.

587
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,360
And then I look for
alternatives.

588
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,600
I think it was well that
studying bugs on and can't

589
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,440
especially open my mind up
because in Britain, you know,

590
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:41,920
you're not taught philosophy at
all.

591
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,440
So yeah, not at school.
So when I started reading at

592
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,400
university it was just an eye
opener because I'd always

593
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,800
considered anything non
materialistic to be like

594
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,680
religious new age nonsense.
That's exactly the same thing

595
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:04,240
that happened to me.
Yeah, yeah, but but now I think

596
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,920
materialism is an ideology as
well and and it's in the same

597
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,080
ballpark as as a lot of the
other theories.

598
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,440
So yeah, no, I think well, one
thing that influenced me

599
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:20,040
actually with regards to my pan
psychist sort of veering was

600
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:21,960
Nietzsche because he spoke
about, you know, the will to

601
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,520
power villas matched coming from
Shabana certain extent and he

602
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,840
said this is a pathos, the will
to power is a pathos, right.

603
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,440
It's a feeling.
This is fundamental.

604
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,240
I mean, this is more in his
notebooks and his published

605
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,800
work, but some in his public
work.

606
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,640
If you're on Good and Evil
Section 36, I seem to remember

607
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,520
that there's this kind of
fundamental Dr. It's

608
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,240
subconscious as a drive to
development, you know, and that

609
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,880
kind of got me thinking.
And then I read Schopenhauer.

610
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,720
It was much more sort of
philosophically developed, but

611
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,480
his more of a will to survive
really knows.

612
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,280
You get the Kinnatus somewhat
similar as well.

613
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,520
So that got me thinking, you
know, there's this kind of

614
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,160
underlying Dr. and we represent
it as matter and force and

615
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,960
whatever, but it's not the
essential aspect of reality.

616
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,920
And that inner aspect of reality
you can feel within yourself,

617
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,719
your drives and your emotions
are sort of secondary to those.

618
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:17,040
And reading bugs on Keith Hanser
Pearson, like I said, I was

619
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,520
never really that fond of bugs
on special kind of dualism, but

620
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,159
it was interesting.
It's things you can take out of

621
00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:27,000
bugs instead.
And yeah.

622
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:32,800
And then I, and then I probably
read Whiteheads and, and that

623
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,800
seemed to quell a lot of my
issues.

624
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:37,239
I mean, you're reading well,
this.

625
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,520
And then you go back to the
people we spoke with a few years

626
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,040
ago and they're just still,
they're still stuck in that.

627
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:42,800
Yeah, what you're talking about,
you know, obviously like, you

628
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,120
know, and then you think, no,
it's not that.

629
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:48,159
It's not that simple.
There are problems.

630
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,239
And yeah.
And I still, I'm still not

631
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,080
saying that I know what the,
what the truth is.

632
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,120
You know, as I say, I've just
got preferences, but I hope to

633
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,080
develop them as time goes by.
But of course, when you develop

634
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,560
you, you, you discover more
problems as well, right?

635
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:04,840
So.
Exactly.

636
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,480
Yeah, the more you know, the
more you question.

637
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,560
Yeah.
The answer becomes less obvious,

638
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,680
but I mean to quote you quoting
someone else.

639
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:17,800
Let's take a trip at this point.
Psychedelics, the philosophy of

640
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,400
psychedelics.
Firstly, how does one come in,

641
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,920
get into this field and and make
a career out of it for and

642
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,920
secondly, what is the philosophy
of psychedelics?

643
00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:32,760
Well, perhaps maybe start.
Maybe start with the second

644
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,440
question, then go to the 1st.
What is the philosophy of

645
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,480
psychedelics?
Well, here's our book on it,

646
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,920
Philosophy and Psychedelics.
So you can get a start that the

647
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:49,280
introduction, especially the
philosophy of psychedelics is, I

648
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,480
would say a relatively new
phenomenon.

649
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,440
Even though, as I say people,
William James, as you mentioned,

650
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,240
was sort of speaking about it in
19 O2.

651
00:35:57,240 --> 00:36:02,640
And actually before that in in
1892, I think he wrote on some

652
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,120
Hegelisms and the footnote is
all about how he understood

653
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:06,760
Hegel have to take nitrous oxide
race.

654
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,240
It kind of starts with James to
certain extent the founder of

655
00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:20,160
modern psychology as well.
And it's a, it's a way of, I

656
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,280
mean, it's, it's, it's all it's
very encompasses a lot.

657
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,280
So you've got the phenomenology
and then you can apply

658
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,800
phenomenology, classic asylum
phenomenology to it and so on.

659
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,360
It's completely new data for
phenomenology.

660
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,080
And in fact, something has
developed in the plus

661
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,360
psychedelics called micro
phenomenology to really sort of

662
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:51,320
pin down what's going on from my
own my own preferences to apply

663
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,720
knowledge of metaphysics to
psychedelic experience.

664
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,280
So for example, in that book
I've written a an essay on

665
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,760
framing the experience of five
Meo DMT, which is a very

666
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,720
powerful psychedelic in spinosis
terms in relation to the

667
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,680
so-called intellectual love of
God or nature.

668
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,560
I've also written about, yeah,
I've just written about Bogson's

669
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,040
influence on Huxley and those
perception.

670
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,800
And it's interesting how you can
frame in different ways

671
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,280
psychedelic experience according
to old metaphysics.

672
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,000
In fact, my, the book I'm
writing now for Bloomsbury,

673
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:34,000
another one is called the
Psychedelics Metaphysics Manual

674
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,920
and it's about offering to
people without a philosophical

675
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:44,640
background different
metaphysical options in which

676
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,920
they might interpret their
psychedelic experience and make

677
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,160
it significant.
It's based on necessary mind on

678
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,840
the need for metaphysics and
psychedelic therapy and

679
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,360
research.
So that's, that's my preference.

680
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,120
But there's a lot of stuff like
a lot of stuff on epistemology,

681
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,360
obviously.
How do we know, you know, how do

682
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,760
we, how do we know that what
we're experience is vertical or

683
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,880
delusory?
There's a lot of ethical issues,

684
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,880
like, for example, the
comforting delusion objection,

685
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:17,760
which Michael Pollan and and
others have spoken of.

686
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:22,960
So like, is it not unethical to
make people better by fostering

687
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,000
a delusion upon them via
psychedelics?

688
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,880
You know, So there's a lot of
different answers to that

689
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,440
question.
Chris Leatherby's written a good

690
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:38,360
book addressing that in part.
And then, yeah, so, so I mean,

691
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,560
the three, I mean, 3 columns of
philosophy, traditionally,

692
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:46,080
metaphysics, epistemology and
ethics are all part all part of

693
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,200
the philosophy of psychedelics.
And interestingly, as this whole

694
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,160
psychedelic renaissance unfolds,
more and more ethical questions

695
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,960
come into view, you know, with
relation to like the law and

696
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,920
appropriation of indigenous use
and, you know, safety issues and

697
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,680
all sorts of things, you know,
and, and really what I, although

698
00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:10,080
I, you know, yeah, I'm in the
philosophy of psychedelics in

699
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,600
Exeter University.
I'm really in the more broader

700
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,200
scope of psychedelic research
generally because it is, by its

701
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,120
nature interdisciplinary.
You know, so you need the

702
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,880
neuroscientist there, of course,
Leo Roseman from Imperial, You

703
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,680
need the anthropologist going
out, you know, and discovering,

704
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:31,880
talking about how psychedelic
use differs from current views.

705
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,640
You need historians.
I mean, if you look at like, for

706
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,560
example, psychedelic therapy in
the 50s, it was the psychiatrist

707
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,520
who was taking the psychedelic
rather than patient that was

708
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,080
turned around, right?
You know, criminologists,

709
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,520
sociologists with relation to
the law, you know,

710
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,440
psychologists, obviously
psychiatrists, pharmacologists,

711
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,920
you need all of those
specialisms to get a full,

712
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,200
concrete, satisfactory view of
what's going on.

713
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,800
And of course, the reason for it
all is that contrary to the sort

714
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,920
of propaganda of the last few
decades, it's now realized that

715
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,640
psychedelics can be quite
therapeutic rather than harmful

716
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,440
to people.
So and that's why a lot of money

717
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,520
is being put into it.
In next to university, we've

718
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:21,480
studied the first master's in
psychedelics online, PG Cert.

719
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:28,000
We've got a master's in person
starting in late 2025 and yeah,

720
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:29,560
so.
What's going on?

721
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:35,440
And it's not just extra, of
course, UCL, Imperial Harvard

722
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,920
just got a huge grant for
psychedelic research,

723
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,080
$16,000,000 I think last year.
So it's a it's a mushrooming

724
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:47,200
field.
I like that when, when I think

725
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,480
about it and as a, as a doctor,
when I used to work in, as a

726
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,040
psychiatry medical officer in,
in the public sector in the

727
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:56,720
state facilities here in South
Africa.

728
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,360
And you see the effect that
certain psychedelics have had on

729
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,360
patients and causing psychosis,
delusions, etcetera.

730
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,760
But then you go to the, the
private sector and you see a

731
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,960
completely different type of
patient.

732
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,960
You see the people who have been
using it or therapy for sort of

733
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,440
trauma, etcetera.
And, and you see such an abrupt

734
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,880
difference.
You can tell that the type of

735
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,120
usage, the way it's used, the
way it's controlled or, or even

736
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,000
uncontrolled can provide
positive or negative effects.

737
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,880
I tried my best to not make this
a medical podcast.

738
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,880
So just I've always got a
disclaimer, this is not medical

739
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,000
advice ever.
This is a philosophy podcast.

740
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:36,840
But what have you seen since the
new rise in psychedelic use in

741
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,320
research, both anecdotally and
empirically?

742
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,200
Evidence wise, what has been the
shift that's occurring

743
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:48,800
currently?
If we say the psychedelic

744
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,160
renaissance started about 12
years ago or so, the first sort

745
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:56,280
of phase of that was to really
forcefully trying to move

746
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,120
people's perceptions away from
like the negative aspects of

747
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:05,120
psychedelics that they make you
jump out windows or they lead to

748
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:10,200
psychosis or neurosis or that
they're addictive and so on.

749
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,800
The hippie kind of connotations,
all of that.

750
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,640
So you had in psychedelic
conferences a lot of, you know,

751
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,440
like a white shirted doctors
coming in and talking about

752
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,120
brain regions.
That was the first phase.

753
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:30,560
And then a lot more research.
I mean, when I, when I started,

754
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,720
I should say, you know, like
when I started, people said to

755
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:36,000
me, don't get into this like
career, be a career killer.

756
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,760
You know, don't mess with your
brain, your mind #1 Secondly,

757
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,920
you know, don't write about this
because it's not seen as

758
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,960
serious.
But you know, like it's just too

759
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,200
interesting intrinsically when
you, when you've had the sex,

760
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,200
that experience, it's just so
radically different.

761
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,920
It's just so rich.
Now it can be in a way that you

762
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:54,480
just have to like look into it
again.

763
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,680
So I just pursued it.
But I didn't, as you said, you

764
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,200
know, my PhD thesis was not on
psychedelics, it was on

765
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,120
panpsychism, you know, and
that's radical enough.

766
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,880
But I.
Was just about to say you chose

767
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,760
both the the the fields of his
consciousness and psychedelics.

768
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,400
You you went all in.
I know, I know.

769
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,200
I live it.
Living on the edge, Yeah, almost

770
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:15,760
falling off.
Who knows, I might be one day.

771
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,720
But yeah, no, no, it can't
return to your question.

772
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:21,240
So.
So there was that phase.

773
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,360
Another interesting thing really
was that, you know, like in the

774
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:32,800
early 20th century, there was
some trials on DMT, especially

775
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,240
just looking at neural
correlates of DMT, and it wasn't

776
00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:38,400
for therapeutic purposes.
And in the 60s, you know, as

777
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,920
well, like it wasn't there was
therapy involved.

778
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,680
And there's like psycholytic
therapy in Europe and

779
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,440
psychedelic therapy in America,
which different European one was

780
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,240
very Freudian based,
psychoanalytic based.

781
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,560
But but you know, like the
general, you know, feeling about

782
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,640
psychedelics was that they were
political tools.

783
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,600
You know, like you get in my
Kuja, you know, like his essay

784
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,920
on liberation 1960 was that
psychedelics are a way of for

785
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,040
seeing the world differently,
you know, seeing like how we're

786
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:13,200
being, you know, like engaged
within certain political systems

787
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,360
and so on.
You know, but in the 21st

788
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,400
century, they're seen as
therapeutic tools.

789
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,400
People have been very careful
now doing very careful analysis

790
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:29,920
because they everyone is scared
that this potential form of

791
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:34,080
medicine or therapy won't get
approved, you know, and that

792
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:35,560
would be quite disastrous for a
lot of people.

793
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:40,240
So, so it's a very step by step,
small, cautious, unlike unlike,

794
00:44:40,240 --> 00:44:41,560
you know, like a few decades
ago.

795
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,720
But but the interesting thing is
you know, when you look at the

796
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,600
before that, before the 60s,
when you look at like Osmond,

797
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,480
like I mentioned Humphrey
Osmond, who's a British

798
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:56,320
psychiatrist, we worked with
Huxley and the philosopher John

799
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:57,440
Smithy.
He's a very interesting

800
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:58,440
philosopher and you're a
philosopher.

801
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,720
It was intellectual, you know,
and like Osmond himself, as a

802
00:45:03,720 --> 00:45:05,720
psychiatrist said, you know,
the, the, the important thing

803
00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:09,800
about psychedelics in his in his
essay of the 1957 where he coins

804
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,040
it is, is it's, you know,
religious, sociological and

805
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:17,520
philosophical implications that
has been lost, you know, and

806
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:21,120
that was that was forgotten
about really, which is a great

807
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,040
busy.
And and so with the philosophy

808
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,560
of psychedelics, that is we're
returning to that certain

809
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:31,000
extent, you know, I think so
it's, it's, you know, still it's

810
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,080
growing and it's kind of it's
got loose form.

811
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,080
You can't really strictly define
it like consciousness, you know,

812
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,400
but it's really fascinating.
I mean, especially if you're a

813
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,080
philosophy, if you're interested
in consciousness, if you're

814
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,280
interested in philosophy, mind,
you know, why not explore that

815
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:51,200
whole amazing cosmos of
different forms of experience?

816
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,920
I mean, forms of experience
which don't even have, you know,

817
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,920
you can't really explain.
I mean, I mean, I've experienced

818
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,960
things on psilocybin which are
you could just about call them

819
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,400
experiences, but they're not,
they can't be categorized as,

820
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:10,720
let's say, a sensation or a
conception or a feeling, but

821
00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:13,760
nonetheless, very power, very
powerful type of experience, you

822
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:17,560
know, So, so just trying to sort
of get a grip on what, what was

823
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,560
going on there, you know, and,
and also it just makes you

824
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,480
realize the power of the mind,
you know, that the mind can

825
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:28,720
create these most amazing
visual, I don't like spaceships

826
00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:35,000
and cosmic journeys and aliens
and of these things, but also

827
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,280
just kind of what would probably
be defined as mystical states,

828
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:42,080
which are not visual at all in
many cases, you know, but just

829
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,680
these intense states of
existence.

830
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,560
I remember when I made the intro
for this podcast, at some point,

831
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,760
I remember saying any atypical
state of mind is an absolutely

832
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:54,600
valuable asset to the study of
mind.

833
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,920
And I mean, these states of mind
are very, very fascinating.

834
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,320
Anyone who studies the mind who,
who neglects this portion of the

835
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,760
field, it's, it's such a massive
component.

836
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:05,920
This is something that if you do
not study, you're making the

837
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,760
most ignorant decision you can
make when you concluding

838
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,640
anything about the mind.
I think it's like if you studied

839
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,040
music but you only listen to
21st century music, it would be

840
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:15,240
like that.
You know what, you don't want to

841
00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:18,640
listen to all the everything
that's before, you know, all the

842
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:23,960
whole other world of, of music.
You have to fight against

843
00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:26,880
prejudice, you know, with with
regard to psychedelics.

844
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:28,760
So a lot of people still don't
take it seriously.

845
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,360
Hard to get kind of state
approved funding for it.

846
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,680
Although in balance that you do
get a lot of philanthropists who

847
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,320
are interested, rich
philanthropists, you know, who

848
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:42,280
are interested in it instead.
But no, I'm happy in this world.

849
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,680
And also it's kind of like
there's a nice community.

850
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,200
I'm also directed at Breaking
Convention, which is Europe's

851
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,160
largest psychedelic conference.
You know, we've got 818 hundred

852
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,800
people coming to Exeter in April
now and it's just a lovely kind

853
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,400
of communal feel to it.
Having said that though, it has

854
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,160
become a little bit
self-conscious in the last few

855
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:04,040
years, a bit self critical as to
where it's going and some bad

856
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:08,520
apples and stuff like that.
So generally, it's a nice place

857
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:10,520
to be.
But I would say in any field to

858
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,480
you, there's always a bunch of
bad apples.

859
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,440
Yeah.
It's not like it's something you

860
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,840
can escape in any in any way.
There was a term you used once.

861
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,000
I can't remember where I saw
this or or read it, but you were

862
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,800
describing these experiences
that are not what we call qualia

863
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:29,680
site.
You, you named it something.

864
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,320
When you have this, it's
something this ethereal

865
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,520
experience that's not
describable.

866
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:38,160
Do you remember what that was?
Well, maybe you mean the term

867
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:42,280
ineffable, which is from William
actually Humphrey David

868
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,600
mentioned before.
Yeah, you can't put it into

869
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,760
words.
I use the word Cy X for

870
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,760
psychedelic experience.
I think that was AI think that

871
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,960
was a.
Yeah, but it's interesting thing

872
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:56,040
about if certain psychedelic
induced mystical experiences are

873
00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:00,520
ineffable, if you can't put them
into words and you can't report

874
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:04,640
them, then you can't get a
neural correlate to them either,

875
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,320
right?
And, and I think that that is a

876
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,320
kind of, I mean, that's another
thing that psychedelic research

877
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:12,400
does.
It brings up these interesting

878
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,680
theoretical questions as to
well, how, you know, what are

879
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:17,640
really the limits of
neuroscience and understanding

880
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,840
of the mind if there are things
that you can't report, you know,

881
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,280
just like animal brains, minds,
right, You can't really fully

882
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,160
correlate things because you
don't get one side of the

883
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:26,600
correlate, you don't get the
report, right.

884
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,600
Same with psychedelic drugs for
human beings.

885
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,160
Arguably, you know, some people
say no, it is.

886
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,600
I mean William James said
they're ineffable men writes 200

887
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,160
pages about it later, right?
So it's it's all debatable.

888
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,240
Interestingly, Castro wasn't a
massive spat.

889
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,680
His his take is that
psychedelics were shown to

890
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:49,320
decrease brain activity.
All, all brain activity, right,

891
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,960
which kind of falsified for him
physicalism or emergentism that,

892
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,200
you know, with greater relevant
brain activity, you'd get

893
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,520
greater phenomenology and thus
opens the door for idealism.

894
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,560
But, but that I think is an open
question.

895
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,240
You know, I don't like.
So I, I spoke to someone on the

896
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,480
study who said, no, it didn't
show that at all.

897
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,960
And and so it's an open
question.

898
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:15,120
But you know, it's very
fascinating.

899
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,080
Like this is a very interesting
question.

900
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,520
Let's say that you did further
tests to determine whether

901
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:22,680
certain psychedelics decrease
brain activity.

902
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:26,360
Whilst the report was of intense
rich experience, ordered

903
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,400
experience.
That would be a fascinating

904
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,400
finding, wouldn't it?
If it, if it was, you know,

905
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:35,040
verified and and checked and you
know, tested many times, that

906
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,640
would tell us that would
actually be like a way of

907
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:41,960
empirically getting into
metaphysics to a certain extent,

908
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,960
right.
And it's psychedelics that would

909
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:49,920
allow for such tests because it
sort of temporarily changes

910
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,520
functioning of normal prosaic
brain functioning.

911
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,760
So, so so yeah, there's a lot of
interesting things yet to

912
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,000
discover, I think.
And yet there are some

913
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,320
scientific theories that
possibly could explain this if

914
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:07,560
you get someone like John Joe
Mcfadden's semi field theory.

915
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,960
Perhaps because merely looking
at these neural correlates might

916
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:12,720
not be the answer.
Someone like Stuart Hameroff

917
00:51:12,720 --> 00:51:14,240
might be right.
Penrose might be right.

918
00:51:14,240 --> 00:51:18,040
Because maybe when you do look
at this from a from a quantum

919
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:19,960
perspective, something might be
going on.

920
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:21,520
They describe it as Occam's
race.

921
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,680
If you can solve this with
quantum mechanics and it solves

922
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,760
multiple things in one go,
because people often say, OK, we

923
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:29,960
don't know consciousness, we
don't know quantum mechanics

924
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:32,440
and, and now we're trying to
make a theory that can explain

925
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:33,840
both.
But I mean, Occam's razor does

926
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,080
say you should be able to if you
could.

927
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,480
Ideally, but I don't know enough
about quantum theory to to to to

928
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:42,440
judge that.
You know, I don't like to, I'd

929
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,960
never like to talk about quantum
theory because when I speak to

930
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,280
quantum theorists, they will
disagree with each other anyway,

931
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,440
so.
I guess, I guess combining

932
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,400
consciousness, psychedelics and
quantum theories, that's a bit

933
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,520
too much at that point we are
taking a little too far.

934
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,880
Well, I've personally, I have
taken psilocybin in the past.

935
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,720
I think it was maybe about 6-7
years ago.

936
00:52:04,720 --> 00:52:09,560
It's been a long time, maybe,
perhaps I'm overdue, but I

937
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:14,480
remember having one horrible
experience, but it's my partly

938
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,800
my sister's fault.
She, she, she ruined the, it's

939
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:19,560
just that she killed it for, for
all of us.

940
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,080
And, and then what we did was I
think of two days later, because

941
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:25,800
it was kind of quite a traumatic
experience.

942
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,000
And then two days later her
husband, myself.

943
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:30,360
I don't even know if I should be
sharing this.

944
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,120
But anyway, it's a bit too late.
He can always cut it out, can't

945
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,080
he?
Yeah, but I might keep it in.

946
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:39,600
We, we redid it just to just to
we tell her, look, you can't you

947
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,800
cannot join us for this one.
We just we kept it out.

948
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,960
We, we, we put it, put it to the
corner, just the naughty corner

949
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,160
for a bit.
And the best experience.

950
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,920
All of us just had the most
wonderful time, life changing.

951
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,320
Some of us stopped.
I mean, one person stopped

952
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,440
smoking one.
I mean, it was it was quite a

953
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,360
therapeutic environment.
We set it up in a way where we

954
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,480
all had these goals this New
Year's resolution.

955
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,720
It was pretty cool.
So these these effects I felt

956
00:53:05,720 --> 00:53:08,720
first person phenomenological
experiences and I do get what

957
00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:12,360
you're talking about.
But I'm curious to know, how do

958
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:16,720
you define psychedelics?
Because I often think when we

959
00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:19,320
try and define this, it's also
quite difficult because anything

960
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:20,720
could be psychoactive in a
sense.

961
00:53:20,720 --> 00:53:26,080
If you take caffeine, if you eat
a really intense meal that's got

962
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,480
a high dose of sugar, at what
point do we differentiate

963
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,800
between normal psychoactive
substances and an absolutely

964
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,520
psychoactive substance like
psilocybin or DMT, etcetera?

965
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,840
Well, again, there's no sharp
edges here.

966
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,960
There's a big debate about it
actually.

967
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:49,560
So the sort of easy answer would
be to limit the term psychedelic

968
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:55,960
to those drugs that act on the
what are they 52HA receptors,

969
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,480
the serotonin receptors.
So that would be LSD.

970
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,360
So Sabin, you know the classics
well, generally known as classic

971
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:06,040
psychedelics.
So that would be like relatively

972
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:10,080
clear cut way of defining them.
However, that would exclude

973
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:15,120
salva divinorum for example,
which is has very similar

974
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:18,040
effects to LSD, some GABA
receptors.

975
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:23,320
I think I said also when you
read the you know, this 1957

976
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,280
paper by Osmond where he
actually coins it.

977
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,840
Before that, he was in
correspondence with Huxley about

978
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:34,800
what to call these new agents.
He sort of includes nitrous

979
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:41,840
oxide because of William James's
work and he defines it mostly

980
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,880
phenomenologically rather than
physiologically, and I prefer

981
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:49,840
this generally speaking.
So you would include nitrous

982
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,200
oxide and thus you would also
include ketamine.

983
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,160
In fact, only work in our Exeter
did I realize that ketamine at

984
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:58,280
high doses can be very visual
and sort of sites as I've been

985
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:02,680
like.
But do you include, you know,

986
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,120
MDMA, for example, ecstasy?
Do you include cannabis?

987
00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:12,000
I yeah, that's where the edges
get blurred.

988
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:16,640
But I'm, I personally generally
am quite open in my definition.

989
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:18,840
And then you get like
psychedelic as an adjective, you

990
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:22,040
know, like so you can say maybe
breath work induces psychedelic

991
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:24,240
experiences, right.
So breath work itself of course

992
00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:29,520
is endogenous, but the effects,
the phenomenology is somewhat

993
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:33,280
similar.
So, so yeah.

994
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,440
So my only, my only definition
is I would not restrict it to

995
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,440
serotonin receptors, but drugs
that act on directly on

996
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,120
serotonin receptors, I would
keep it more open than that and

997
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:45,400
base it more on phenomenology.
So what phenomenology?

998
00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:49,640
Well, altered states of
consciousness, but there are

999
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:54,720
many such states, I'm thinking
LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, they

1000
00:55:54,720 --> 00:55:58,000
induce like these beautiful can
induce quite often in beautiful

1001
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,360
visions.
But if you take 5 and meo DMT,

1002
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:05,040
which I mentioned, that is just
not beautiful visions at all.

1003
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:08,080
It's just, you know, well, white
light generally Speaking of

1004
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:11,880
white light, and then the loss
of everything, you know, loss of

1005
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:16,280
sight, hearing, memory, thought,
sense of times or loss.

1006
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:20,000
But there's a profound
experience or state of being

1007
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,720
that that remains, you know, and
that's known as a psychedelic.

1008
00:56:24,720 --> 00:56:26,400
I mean, it coincides with the
word mystical.

1009
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:28,680
If you, if you try to define
that, there's so many different

1010
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,560
definitions of that.
In the early 20th and mid 20th

1011
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,440
century, William James, you
know, to find it in certain

1012
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:42,400
ways, height, you know, passive,
ineffable, noetic and transient.

1013
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,120
But then other people define it
in different ways.

1014
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:50,560
I mean, what in in trials today,
a number of questionnaires are

1015
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:53,480
used to determine the
experiences people had on

1016
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,080
psychedelics.
And a lot of those

1017
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:58,560
questionnaires, especially the
MEQ Mystical Experience

1018
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:03,600
questionnaires, based on a
philosophy book by Walter Stace

1019
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:06,160
from 1960 on mysticism and
philosophy.

1020
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:08,760
And he defines mysticism in a
certain way there, but it

1021
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:12,000
differs from others.
You know, it's Yeah.

1022
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:16,800
No, I don't think you can define
these things that well.

1023
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:18,960
Generally.
I think, you know, what's

1024
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:21,640
important ultimately is you
know, how we use those

1025
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,560
definitions.
There's also another interesting

1026
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:34,000
aspect to this, which is that
because of the kind of Christian

1027
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:38,240
heritage and also platonic or
Neoplatonic heritage we have in

1028
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:41,960
the West, there was a way of
interpreting psychedelic

1029
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,200
experiences as particularly
mystical or theological in a

1030
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,400
way.
Whereas when you look at

1031
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:52,760
psychedelic use and let's say
Peru, very different, you know,

1032
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:56,120
like it's not about becoming one
with the universe or connecting

1033
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:59,040
or losing the sense of space,
you know, never mentioned these

1034
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:02,800
things.
And and so you have to sort of

1035
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:06,240
wonder whether people are being
primed into expecting these

1036
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:10,360
experiences because of the
history of the field or whether

1037
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,240
they're having those experiences
because of their general Western

1038
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:19,320
cultural context or whether
they're having many experiences,

1039
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:22,880
but they're only being asked to
report on certain experiences.

1040
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:28,640
A paper came out, a preprint
last month that I co-authored

1041
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:31,960
our secondary author, not the
main author, but a suggestion to

1042
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:36,040
rename psychedelics into
psychosomedelics, including the

1043
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:38,600
body, because there's a lot of
like bodily feelings that are

1044
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:42,240
very often ignored in these in
these trials and whatever,

1045
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:44,240
right?
So there's so much cultural

1046
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:46,280
baggage that comes into the
science.

1047
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,040
It's quite it's, it's quite
alarming actually.

1048
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:53,160
The IT, it can't escape the
psychology and philosophy, I

1049
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:55,440
found both of them equally
fascinating in different ways,

1050
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:57,680
but not equally, but both
fascinating in different ways.

1051
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,840
But the ontological aspect of
this, the metaphysics behind it,

1052
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:02,440
it's, it's, it's such a
fascinating feel.

1053
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:06,120
It's so difficult to not get
absorbed and and high on this

1054
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:09,360
feeling of discussing.
I always say that, yeah,

1055
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:12,120
psychedelic surrogate way drug
to metaphysics, ultimately,

1056
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:13,880
that's that's what's going on in
that way, yeah.

1057
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,320
It's, it's impossible to not
discuss, discuss it, but

1058
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:20,000
something I find fascinating is,
I mean, what one could say that

1059
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:22,680
OK, you get you, let's say you
use psilocybin.

1060
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,720
You start to notice that the
Earth is sort of breathing.

1061
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:28,120
You start to see the Earth as an
Organism and then you sort of

1062
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:30,760
realise that this entire planet
is alive.

1063
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:33,880
Is that because that is the
essence?

1064
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:38,160
I mean, we, you, you briefly
touched on the, the comforting

1065
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:41,200
delusion, but I mean, that could
be the one aspect, but the other

1066
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:44,280
could be the plant has just
developed this gene that allows

1067
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:48,360
it to trick us to, to enjoy
these wonderful occasions and

1068
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:52,560
thereafter and nurture itself by
because we'll obviously plant

1069
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,920
this and keep it going.
So they might just, it might

1070
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:56,480
just have nothing to do with it,
but.

1071
00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:00,320
I mean, there are obviously
delusions going on.

1072
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,640
You know, if you see a pink
elephant walk across the table,

1073
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:04,040
you know it's probably not an
issue.

1074
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:06,400
Spread little truths value to
that.

1075
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,240
Yeah, that's the question.
I mean, that's the interesting

1076
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:16,280
question, which metaphysical and
epistemic and you know, do these

1077
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,200
drugs allow you to see some form
of reality?

1078
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:21,400
You know, and you can't, I mean
with a comforting delusion

1079
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,640
objection.
I mean, there's a there's a

1080
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:25,920
metaphysical assumption that
materialism there, right.

1081
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:28,840
Well, we know what reality is.
And therefore, if you experience

1082
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,800
like an idealism, which is quite
common, for example, a pantheism

1083
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:34,800
or some kind of monism or
whatever, you know, units of

1084
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:36,320
experience and that obviously is
false.

1085
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:38,800
So therefore 1 shouldn't treat
people with it.

1086
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:42,360
Well, OK, yeah, if you're if
you've established that, that

1087
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:44,240
you are that materialism is
true.

1088
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:49,080
But that's the question, right.
And what are, you know, some

1089
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:52,000
studies from Imperial from Chris
Timmerman, people like that.

1090
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:54,240
Well, Chris Timmerman study a
few years ago showed that

1091
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:56,960
generally when people take
psychedelics, they do shift

1092
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,840
their metaphysical positions
generally away from physicalism

1093
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:03,800
to kind of pan psychism.
But the problems with those

1094
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,760
studies, like it didn't include
idealism, for example, pantheism

1095
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:09,560
within it.
And the way they define

1096
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:13,680
panpsychism is kind of loose and
but nonetheless, there are

1097
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:15,880
metaphysical shifts.
I mean, the funny, the classic

1098
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:18,360
cases in philosophy is AJ Ayers
experience.

1099
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:20,320
You know, I don't know if you
ever read about that, but he.

1100
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:26,760
Yeah, he choked on salmon and
had a psychedelic experience

1101
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:30,320
and, and wrote an article saying
that he now believes that

1102
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:32,520
consciousness might survive
death after all, but there's

1103
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:35,120
still no God.
Yeah.

1104
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:37,280
Like you say, these these
experiences can be life

1105
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:42,560
changing, but are they true?
How do you determine truth?

1106
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:46,280
This is, yeah, the classic
question.

1107
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:50,800
I think that what the hard
problem of consciousness does is

1108
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:54,760
that it leaves options open.
And when you really understand

1109
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:58,200
that, you realize you can't
easily just dismiss idealism or

1110
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:03,200
absolute monism or or whatever.
And they are, I think, open

1111
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:05,880
questions.
There's a lot of logic behind

1112
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,720
all of them, a lot of criticism,
criticisms behind all of them.

1113
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:13,000
But anyway, the point is that
they are open questions and and

1114
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:18,040
when you have a psychedelic
experience, it is thus possible

1115
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:22,040
that you are having in certain
cases, vertical experiences.

1116
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:25,480
You know, on the sort of deeper
cases where you where you have

1117
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:27,560
those kind of like classic
mystical experiences.

1118
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:29,640
I think there's mystical
experiences.

1119
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:32,480
Some evidence shows that they
are actually conducive to

1120
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:37,800
therapy as well.
And then, yeah, so.

1121
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:42,320
So I don't think though, that
the experience itself can prove

1122
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:43,880
any metaphysical experience,
right.

1123
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:47,760
For that, you still need
philosophy and science and, you

1124
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:49,680
know, to sort of you need both
of them there, right?

1125
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:51,480
Yeah.
I don't think you just dismiss

1126
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:55,760
them out of hand because, you
know, delusion is, you know,

1127
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:59,440
like completely dependent on
what you understand reality to

1128
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,080
be.
So maybe there are there's some

1129
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:04,920
kind of truths, like for
example, I was mentioning

1130
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:06,960
Whitehead's theory of
prehension, which is like the

1131
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:11,240
absorption of feeling from the
outside into the inside, you

1132
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:16,280
know, using spatial metaphors.
So often with psychedelics, you

1133
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:17,960
know, you look at a plant and
you sort of feel it.

1134
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:19,920
You know, you think you feel it.
And this could be one of the

1135
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:22,680
reasons why people do kind of
get more sympathetic to

1136
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:27,120
panpsychism to some extent.
And under sort of Whiteheadian

1137
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:30,200
framework, you can kind of begin
to understand it a little bit

1138
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:32,160
more.
You know, you are becoming a

1139
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:35,240
little bit more conscious of
that prehensive activity that

1140
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:37,640
generally happens or you're a
bit more open to it or your mind

1141
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:39,920
kind of fixates on it to certain
extent.

1142
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:42,640
That doesn't prove it's true of
course, but it doesn't make more

1143
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:48,760
sense of it.
So, so I'm open.

1144
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:52,480
Like I say, I'm, I'm quite open
minded to these things being

1145
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:55,440
possibly vertical, but at the
same time I do realise that some

1146
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:57,840
of them are mutually exclusive,
you know, So like you may have

1147
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:01,640
an absolute idealist experience
one day and the next day you

1148
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:03,520
have dualist experience, you
know.

1149
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:10,120
But it seems to me that these
the psychedelic drugs seem to

1150
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:15,480
move towards more of a non dual
experience for the most part.

1151
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:19,200
It does feel like you become
more one with everything else.

1152
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:23,640
And what Peter, from your side,
what's been from your first

1153
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:26,760
person experience in your
research, what has been the most

1154
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:29,240
intense experience and what was
the substance?

1155
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:34,000
Well, there's only one contender
for that, which is the five meo

1156
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:37,480
DMT that I tried once in a legal
setting I should say.

1157
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:44,400
And just five meo DMT is not
DMT, not normal DMT, which

1158
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:48,400
people speak about.
It's radically different in its

1159
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,120
effects.
You can get it from the

1160
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:56,000
secretions of the Sonoran Desert
toad and also in some vines and

1161
01:04:56,000 --> 01:05:01,200
synthetic versions of it.
What happened to me was quite

1162
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:05,800
extreme.
I, there's a guy I know who does

1163
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:09,120
it every single Sunday for the
last sort of four or five years,

1164
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:13,280
right?
Every that fail, which I can't

1165
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:15,600
really understand, I tried it
once and I actually don't dare

1166
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:18,280
to take it again at the moment.
Anyway, that was about two years

1167
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:21,040
ago.
What happens?

1168
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:25,760
Well, what happened to me is I,
I tried a small bit with a

1169
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:28,920
vaporizer and didn't work.
And I, I thought I measured that

1170
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:30,960
out properly.
I had this friend of mine sort

1171
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:35,520
of, you know, supervising very
importantly and said, OK, let's,

1172
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:38,680
let's, let's increase the dose.
Nothing happened that time.

1173
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:40,240
Nothing happened.
I said, OK, I'm one of these

1174
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:43,200
like small percentage of people
just doesn't get an effect from

1175
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:44,240
that.
So just give me the rest of

1176
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:45,080
them.
I'll just try that.

1177
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:50,000
That was a mistake.
So I don't know how much it

1178
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:55,080
took, but it was it was what
happened then is you breathe in

1179
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:57,840
and you held it and then
suddenly what happened to me at

1180
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:02,280
least was suddenly everything
goes white.

1181
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:05,320
So you sort of become blind.
A few hexagons maybe feel like

1182
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:08,920
your shirt kind of appear on my
shirt, just very mildly.

1183
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:11,520
But mostly it's white light,
white out, It's called, you see,

1184
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:13,920
quite common.
Although a friend of mine

1185
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:17,360
actually said he had a black
black out, not a black out,

1186
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:23,720
black vision as a word.
And then very quickly you lose

1187
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:25,880
your sensibility.
So you lose your hearing, you

1188
01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:31,680
know, your smell, your sight, as
I say.

1189
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:37,800
And at this point, personally, I
thought, oh shit, I've, I'm

1190
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:39,480
dying.
You know, I've taken too much.

1191
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:42,120
This is very bad.
I've never had this experience

1192
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:46,360
before in the space of a few
seconds and then suddenly my

1193
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:48,680
thought, you know, again within
the space of a few seconds.

1194
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:50,560
And my thought pressure is like,
Oh no, is this death?

1195
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:52,080
I don't even know.
That's a horrible way to die,

1196
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:53,320
isn't it?
When you're not even sure.

1197
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:57,760
And then room, everything's
gone.

1198
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:00,200
You know, sense of time
disappears, your memory

1199
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:01,800
disappears, your sense of self
disappears.

1200
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:06,920
But what what remained and it
lasts about 10 minutes in earth

1201
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:09,200
time.
What remained is like this

1202
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:13,200
extreme, extreme sense of
profundity.

1203
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:19,240
It was like it was an sort of a
state.

1204
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:22,600
It was so extreme I can't I can
hardly call it consciousness or

1205
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:24,680
experience.
I call it a state of existence

1206
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:26,560
almost.
But it was just a sense of

1207
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:28,840
extreme importance or extreme
profundity.

1208
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:31,280
But without an object doesn't
know about what you know,

1209
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:35,000
because and, and interesting
actually, you know, in terms of

1210
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:37,600
philosophy in mind that you can
have these, OK, let's call it

1211
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:41,040
experience.
You can have experience without

1212
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:44,200
an object, right?
Against Brentano's famous

1213
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:48,040
intentionality claim that, you
know, consciousness has to have

1214
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:50,040
an object, right?
Or it has to be about something.

1215
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:52,880
This didn't seem to be about
anything at all, right?

1216
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:55,360
So that means you can have.
So that can't be a sort of

1217
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:58,000
essential demarcation of
consciousness.

1218
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:00,680
That's another way in which
psychedelics can sort of

1219
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:03,360
facilitate philosophy.
Mind.

1220
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:05,240
I should write one day.
And I say about that I haven't

1221
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:09,120
yet anyway.
So yeah, that was.

1222
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:11,880
And then, and then, you know,
slowly, about 10 minutes later,

1223
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:13,800
I kind of opened my eyes slowly
came out of it.

1224
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:16,800
And luckily my friend was there
saying everything's fine,

1225
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:18,279
everything, which was a
lifesaver.

1226
01:08:18,279 --> 01:08:20,720
If he did that, if he did that
alone, you'd have a panic

1227
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:23,479
attack.
It's like a war zone, you know,

1228
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:25,479
it's like extreme trauma in many
ways.

1229
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:28,000
I don't recommend it to anyone
really.

1230
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:30,000
I just did it for purely
academic reasons, because I,

1231
01:08:30,279 --> 01:08:32,680
because it's known as a God
molecule, you know, it's, it's

1232
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:34,600
known as that which induces the
unit of statement more than

1233
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:36,359
anything else.
I have wanted to experience this

1234
01:08:36,359 --> 01:08:39,479
myself.
And I wrote, I did write about

1235
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:43,080
it, you know, in that book.
But yeah, no, that's, that's,

1236
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:47,279
that's, that's, that's my most
extreme state.

1237
01:08:47,279 --> 01:08:51,040
I do, I must, I do prefer those
psilocybin generally because of

1238
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:53,720
the beautiful aesthetics and
feelings that you can get from

1239
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:55,680
that.
Although as you say, it can be,

1240
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:01,439
it's the, both the beautiful and
the sublime, the terror sublime

1241
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:05,240
that Burke talks about, you
know, and that's actually

1242
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:07,439
another aspect you of philosophy
you can bring into like

1243
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:09,720
psychedelics, right?
This the whole, you know, the

1244
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:12,520
aesthetics, aesthetics theory.
In fact, I've got a, I've got

1245
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:16,399
hopefully if she gets funding
her PhD students starting soon,

1246
01:09:16,399 --> 01:09:19,240
who's going to look at DMT
aesthetics in relation to the

1247
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:22,720
sublime.
Yeah, so.

1248
01:09:24,359 --> 01:09:27,680
There's so many different
branches this could take, but

1249
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:32,359
you mentioned that the the self
criticism within the field is

1250
01:09:32,359 --> 01:09:34,319
starting to go to starting to
grow.

1251
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:38,240
Why do you think this is?
Is it just purely because some

1252
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:43,800
people are taking it too far as
with any field but or or is

1253
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:45,279
there some sort of plateau
happening?

1254
01:09:45,399 --> 01:09:47,279
Do you feel like this
renaissance might reach a

1255
01:09:47,279 --> 01:09:50,760
plateau or or will it continue
to thrive in mushroom as you

1256
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:54,760
said?
Yeah, I hope it continues in

1257
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:59,000
some form and it's not outlawed
and but the reason for the

1258
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:04,760
kickback as well, the imminent
not implosion, but self critique

1259
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:09,400
is for a number of reasons.
One is some a lot of people

1260
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:11,520
didn't like the medicalization
psychedelics.

1261
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:13,600
So, you know, like the people
who were talking about

1262
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:16,240
psychedelics in the 90s and the
early 21st century were, you

1263
01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:20,640
know, like former hippies or
artists, you know, and, and, and

1264
01:10:20,640 --> 01:10:22,960
so on.
And, and, and they didn't take

1265
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,800
it for healing, for therapy.
They took it because it was

1266
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:28,200
interesting, you know,
artistically or intellectually

1267
01:10:28,200 --> 01:10:29,760
interesting.
And they had their little

1268
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:31,800
communities.
And then it seems like there was

1269
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:35,840
a takeover by the medical
community and pharmaceutical

1270
01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:38,960
companies, you know, and then
obviously you see there's a lot

1271
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:43,320
of then a lot of kind of in a
Californian startup companies

1272
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:47,680
came in and a lot of retreat
centers opened and it just came

1273
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:49,280
kind of very commercialized as
well.

1274
01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:54,640
And and then so that was that
was one reason for a lot of

1275
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:58,320
criticism.
My colleague Christine Haskell,

1276
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:00,920
as she talks about
medicalization in critical

1277
01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:03,200
theory terms, you know, anti
capitalist.

1278
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:14,880
Another reason was that it
didn't, there were promises

1279
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:16,440
made.
There was like over hype to

1280
01:11:16,440 --> 01:11:18,640
start with.
Like I said, you had to get away

1281
01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:22,280
from the kind of negative
connotations that had, but it

1282
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:24,240
kind of pushed it too far in the
other direction.

1283
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:27,040
And then a lot of those promises
never really happened.

1284
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:32,200
You know, like would be using
MBMA in 2018 to treat PTSD or

1285
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:35,240
whatever and just didn't emerge.
It's, you know, in other

1286
01:11:35,240 --> 01:11:39,480
countries, Australian, but
there's kind of a little bit of

1287
01:11:39,480 --> 01:11:44,840
disappointment.
Like I said, a few bad apples.

1288
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:53,800
The Me Too movement got a few
people down, but it's kind of

1289
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:55,760
inevitable.
I think, you know, with any new

1290
01:11:55,760 --> 01:11:59,680
sort of like flourishing new
movement, you know, it's sort of

1291
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:02,240
lots of people join in and then
a lot of them become

1292
01:12:02,240 --> 01:12:05,800
disappointed and then, you know,
the criticism comes in.

1293
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,240
And then there's also the whole
thing about cultural

1294
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:12,080
appropriation, of course, which
is an interesting one because,

1295
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:15,600
you know, not all psychedelics
are from indigenous communities.

1296
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:18,040
LSD was synthesized in
Switzerland, for example,

1297
01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:25,640
nitrous oxide here, MDMA, you
know, So again, complex ethical

1298
01:12:25,640 --> 01:12:30,680
issues and so on so forth.
But yeah, no, well, one

1299
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:34,360
navigates through, you know,
it's, it's, it's it's like, you

1300
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:36,280
know, you can't expect not to
have any problems whatsoever.

1301
01:12:36,440 --> 01:12:38,600
The biggest problem, of course,
is the legal problem, still

1302
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:40,480
illegal, the lot of these, most
of these drugs.

1303
01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:44,720
So to get funding for it and
even, you know, funding for

1304
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:49,600
trials, very expensive and lot
of hurdles to go through, but

1305
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:52,480
that kind of makes it more fun,
you know, more of a challenge.

1306
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:58,800
I fully agree with the
overhyping because because those

1307
01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:03,280
who love it do tend to hype this
up quite a bit to a point where

1308
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:05,560
it, it, it becomes too promising
to.

1309
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:08,040
But then when you look at the
data, you can see, I mean, this

1310
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:10,000
is very promising stuff in some
of the fields.

1311
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:12,800
I know I read a few papers in
psilocybin and the impacts

1312
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:16,920
they've had on depression rates,
anxiety, etcetera.

1313
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:21,000
There's still a lot of work to
be done, of course, but the more

1314
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:23,360
work you see coming out, the
more you can see the potential

1315
01:13:23,360 --> 01:13:26,080
at least, which should allow for
some sort of curiosity.

1316
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:30,200
And whether it's philosophical,
ontological, there's definitely

1317
01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:32,560
some sort of a practical
significance that needs to be

1318
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:35,840
explored here.
And yeah, to just completely

1319
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:37,720
shut it down would be pretty
disappointing.

1320
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:40,200
No, yeah.
And also I should just say, you

1321
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:42,400
know, we're going through the
medical therapeutic stage now.

1322
01:13:42,400 --> 01:13:46,160
But I see, you know, you know,
in the future it's there's a

1323
01:13:46,160 --> 01:13:48,560
Centre for Minds with Bruce
Stammer, you know, the NASA

1324
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:52,880
scientists that's just emerged
and they're funding their kind

1325
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:56,440
of foundation to help, funding
to help fund psychedelic

1326
01:13:56,440 --> 01:13:58,520
research into creativity and
innovation.

1327
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:01,360
So see that as the next step
now, you know, it's moving away

1328
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:03,040
a little bit from therapy,
keeping that.

1329
01:14:03,040 --> 01:14:06,520
But you know, it's not just for
the sake, it's for everyone

1330
01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:08,160
really.
It's, I mean, it's just

1331
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:10,040
inherently fascinating, as I
say.

1332
01:14:10,480 --> 01:14:12,560
Yeah, it has become quite cold
because, because I think in the

1333
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:16,080
one study, I read it as a psych
psychiatrist, psychologist,

1334
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:19,440
patients laying on a bed and
puts on a blindfold and then has

1335
01:14:19,440 --> 01:14:20,680
the trip.
I mean, that's not the most

1336
01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:24,280
comfortable place.
It's it's not the calming

1337
01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:26,480
environment, as much as we'd
love to believe it is.

1338
01:14:26,480 --> 01:14:28,920
As a doctor, I know what I know
what their intention is, but

1339
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:32,240
really isn't the best place.
That's what I mean by like

1340
01:14:32,480 --> 01:14:34,120
taking incremental careful
steps.

1341
01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:35,600
That's what's been happening
about at the same time, you

1342
01:14:35,600 --> 01:14:38,280
know, the old 60s motto was set
and setting is so important.

1343
01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:44,440
I mean, again, it's another
consciousness question about how

1344
01:14:44,440 --> 01:14:48,440
your environment affects your,
your, your mind and, and, and

1345
01:14:48,440 --> 01:14:50,240
your, your general moods and
whatnot.

1346
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:53,120
In fact, that's another very
interesting aspect of

1347
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:56,520
psychedelic research.
This old, what was one, say, a

1348
01:14:56,520 --> 01:14:59,080
debate within theology or
mysticism studies between

1349
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:01,800
perennialism and contextualism.
You know that.

1350
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:05,560
So some people argue the
perennialists like Huxley and

1351
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:09,400
and maybe James and argue that,
you know, although every

1352
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:13,920
cultured interprets the peak
mystical experience differently,

1353
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:16,200
the actual experience is the
same, you know, qualitatively

1354
01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:18,160
identical, maybe numerically
identical.

1355
01:15:19,240 --> 01:15:21,800
Whereas the contextualist was
Stephen Katz in 17 said, no,

1356
01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:25,760
actually your culture completely
determines the consciousness

1357
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:27,160
that you have, you know,
totally.

1358
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:30,560
And and then there's a third
way, of course, about this is

1359
01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:35,440
psychedelic research has brought
back this interesting debate

1360
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:38,200
and, you know, it's fundamental
consciousness question really,

1361
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:40,880
you know, like to what extent
your surroundings and your

1362
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:47,640
mindset actually influence your
consciousness relating to again

1363
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:49,400
next, you know, 4E cognition and
whatnot.

1364
01:15:50,920 --> 01:15:53,560
So, yeah, when you're having
people in a little clinical room

1365
01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:56,760
with a, with an eye mask on and
two people over, you've watched

1366
01:15:56,760 --> 01:15:59,240
them, it's a, it's a very
particular setting, you know,

1367
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:00,840
that might have.
On the right side, they've

1368
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:04,320
they've taken off the white
coats, so it's the least they

1369
01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:07,440
could do.
Tell me, Peter, at this point in

1370
01:16:07,440 --> 01:16:11,120
your life and your career, what
part about all this work excites

1371
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:14,040
you the most?
And what let's say in the next

1372
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:16,720
10 years, what do you look most
looking forward to within the

1373
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:18,480
philosophy of mind and
psychedelics?

1374
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:30,440
I mean, I, I think what at at
the moment.

1375
01:16:30,440 --> 01:16:35,640
So this year I spent the last
few years looking downwards, as

1376
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:38,080
it were, into panpsychism.
You know, how far down can

1377
01:16:38,120 --> 01:16:41,200
consciousness go?
But I'm beginning to look

1378
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:43,640
upwards now.
So I am interested, I'm going

1379
01:16:43,640 --> 01:16:47,480
back to Hegel and the idealist,
the absolute idealist, Bradley,

1380
01:16:47,480 --> 01:16:50,920
as I keep mentioning, and I'm
interested in this absolute, you

1381
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:53,600
know, this related psychedelics.
As you were saying, there's a

1382
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:56,680
tendency towards this kind of
absolute monism, you know, and

1383
01:16:56,680 --> 01:17:00,080
Spinoza relation to that.
So I'm beginning to and and

1384
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:04,080
classic notions of pantheism or
modern term cosmos psychism that

1385
01:17:04,160 --> 01:17:06,000
that interests me, like
basically top down approaches to

1386
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:10,160
consciousness.
I'm developing what I call

1387
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:13,640
exogenous mind theory.
So that's like that we are

1388
01:17:14,440 --> 01:17:19,560
partake of consciousness.
So to a certain extent, seeing

1389
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:23,160
just basically having that
hypothesis and seeing where it

1390
01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:26,160
leads me.
So both theoretically, but also

1391
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:29,280
interestingly empirically.
So I think, you know, certain

1392
01:17:29,480 --> 01:17:32,120
empirical tests can be made made
for this.

1393
01:17:32,120 --> 01:17:35,560
You know, like I said, you know,
like testing brain activity in

1394
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:38,520
relation to certain certain of
these psychedelic experiences

1395
01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:41,560
would be very revealing.
So that's where I'm heading at

1396
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:44,880
the moment.
Have you called us exogenous

1397
01:17:44,880 --> 01:17:47,000
mind theory?
Have you formalized this as this

1398
01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:50,480
what you're calling it?
Yes, I've hereby formalize it.

1399
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:53,720
Great.
I love that.

1400
01:17:53,720 --> 01:17:56,440
I love that.
Yeah.

1401
01:17:56,440 --> 01:17:58,040
No, it's just.
Why don't you go for that name?

1402
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:05,200
I was when I was explaining
Bergson in the, in the Masters

1403
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:07,920
or the PG Sir and the PG Sir we
teach here.

1404
01:18:08,360 --> 01:18:12,320
So I was, I was talking about
how Huxley was drawing upon

1405
01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:14,520
Bergsen's theory of mind at
large.

1406
01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:17,560
And actually that's Huxley's
term mind at large and reducing

1407
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:20,840
value from Bergsen.
And I just wanted to sort of get

1408
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:24,200
across this idea that generally
today we have endogenous

1409
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:26,560
theories of mind.
So the brain and body maybe sort

1410
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:28,240
of generate consciousness
somehow.

1411
01:18:28,240 --> 01:18:29,840
I think that's a default view
pretty much.

1412
01:18:31,080 --> 01:18:33,280
But that's a bottom up approach,
of course, right.

1413
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:40,080
Emergentism says it all, but
Bergson has a top down approach.

1414
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:45,280
So we we we receive rather than
generate consciousness.

1415
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:50,160
So the function of the brain is
to restrict and channel outside

1416
01:18:51,280 --> 01:18:53,680
data.
So I thought, well, if you're

1417
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:57,440
going to call it in, you know,
like the general theories of

1418
01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:03,120
self induced consciousness,
endogenous so from within, and

1419
01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:05,880
that includes pan psychic, much
like micro constitutive pan

1420
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:08,760
psychicism, that is also
endogenous, you know, coming

1421
01:19:08,760 --> 01:19:12,560
from within up, as it were, what
would you call the opposite?

1422
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:14,960
You know, so it's going to be
exogenous.

1423
01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:17,200
Now, having said that, I'm not
taking a Bergsonian view.

1424
01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:20,360
So, so like I said, I do like, I
think some of the, I think

1425
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:22,400
Matter of Memory from Bergson is
one of the greatest books of

1426
01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:25,720
philosophy ever written, but
it's, I think there's a

1427
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:29,760
fundamental logical flaw in his
dualism.

1428
01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:33,120
I think a monism is just more
pessimonious.

1429
01:19:33,120 --> 01:19:36,680
So an exogenous mind theory,
which is kind of monism, but

1430
01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:41,440
it's related to absolute
idealism and organic realism.

1431
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:43,360
Coming back to where I started
now.

1432
01:19:43,360 --> 01:19:44,960
Yeah.
So that's that's what I want to

1433
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:47,440
develop.
Would your would your

1434
01:19:47,440 --> 01:19:50,720
development of this theory be
more empirical based or

1435
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:54,200
phenomenologically based?
I think actually more

1436
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:56,360
theoretically based.
So at this point I just want to

1437
01:19:56,360 --> 01:20:00,240
modernize a number of the lost
philosophers of the absolute

1438
01:20:00,240 --> 01:20:05,040
idealists and realists, new
realists, and sort of integrate

1439
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:07,880
a bit from other philosophers,
you know, both some especially

1440
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:15,280
maybe James, but I, you know, at
university I do, I'm in the

1441
01:20:15,280 --> 01:20:17,320
psychology department, you know,
and not the philosophy

1442
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:19,280
department now.
And I'm there.

1443
01:20:20,320 --> 01:20:22,400
There are many neuroscientists
and psychologists I would love

1444
01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:24,280
to work with, you know, with
regards to this.

1445
01:20:24,280 --> 01:20:27,720
And there's a lot of, you know,
people who are very interested

1446
01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:29,160
in funding this kind of stuff as
well.

1447
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:33,320
So I want to develop this
theory, but I don't want it to

1448
01:20:33,320 --> 01:20:35,360
be purely philosophical.
I want it to be, you know,

1449
01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:39,600
amenable to testing.
If if it's possible to be

1450
01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:42,480
amenable to testing, that would
make a very interesting essay in

1451
01:20:42,480 --> 01:20:46,280
itself, you know, because
generally, as you know, you

1452
01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:48,560
know, the problem with
empirically testing theories of

1453
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:51,680
mind is the alleged privacy of
the mind, right?

1454
01:20:51,840 --> 01:20:54,200
If mind is private, then it's
not empirical, right?

1455
01:20:54,200 --> 01:20:57,760
By that, by that definition, if
you accept that differentiator

1456
01:20:57,760 --> 01:20:58,840
of consciousness, which might
not.

1457
01:21:00,200 --> 01:21:02,320
So how can we get around that if
we need to?

1458
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:04,680
So these kind of.
Yeah.

1459
01:21:04,680 --> 01:21:07,320
So systematizing all these
theoretical questions and then

1460
01:21:07,440 --> 01:21:11,680
fundamentally changing the way
people think, you know,

1461
01:21:12,280 --> 01:21:17,400
normalizing what considered
strange theories of

1462
01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:19,200
consciousness.
I think this is my goal.

1463
01:21:19,440 --> 01:21:21,560
And actually another thing I'm
involved with this this mind at

1464
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:25,720
large project with some
Americans like Matthew Siegel,

1465
01:21:25,720 --> 01:21:30,040
Andrew Davis, Andrew Schwartz
and others, Alex Gomez Marin.

1466
01:21:30,400 --> 01:21:33,000
And we're we're creating this
three-year project where we're

1467
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:36,000
having conferences around the
world, maybe starting an Exeter

1468
01:21:36,160 --> 01:21:39,920
in winter.
And, and we're going to look at

1469
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:43,720
the history of consciousness,
like why, why people, why we are

1470
01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:46,080
where we are.
And then we're going to

1471
01:21:46,080 --> 01:21:49,000
introduce, you know, sort of the
rationale, the logic of these

1472
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:52,320
other purportedly radical
theories.

1473
01:21:52,320 --> 01:21:55,480
And sort of, I'm bringing a
number of people from many

1474
01:21:55,480 --> 01:21:57,880
disciplines and sort of.
Yeah.

1475
01:21:57,880 --> 01:21:59,720
So that's not a big project I'm
working on at the moment.

1476
01:22:00,440 --> 01:22:02,840
If if you set a date on that
please let me know.

1477
01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:07,200
Well, I think the first one will
be December 2025 and it's

1478
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:08,760
probably going to be at
University of Exeter.

1479
01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:10,680
We're just finalizing actually
dates and times, but I'll let

1480
01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:11,920
you know.
Yeah, in fact.

1481
01:22:12,240 --> 01:22:14,120
Send me an e-mail, I'd love to
come.

1482
01:22:15,520 --> 01:22:17,520
I'll.
Be also, we're also looking for

1483
01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:20,440
documentary film makers.
We've got a number of mind.

1484
01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:23,120
So it'll be like not just
conferences, you know, everyone

1485
01:22:23,120 --> 01:22:24,880
says there are conferences all
the time in those kind of goods.

1486
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:28,720
There'll be conferences,
workshops, it'll be open to the

1487
01:22:28,720 --> 01:22:31,880
public and private, and then
we'll also have proceedings but

1488
01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:34,800
also documentary hopefully.
That sounds a.

1489
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:36,800
Bit I'm looking through your
project now.

1490
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:39,440
Literally just having a similar
conversation with Stuart about

1491
01:22:39,440 --> 01:22:41,280
his Science of Consciousness
conference.

1492
01:22:41,280 --> 01:22:43,880
One SEC like if you just invite
me I'll be there.

1493
01:22:43,960 --> 01:22:45,520
Mind, body, solution, cover all
of it.

1494
01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:49,800
There was something specific I
wanted to touch on before.

1495
01:22:51,240 --> 01:22:53,560
What were you talking about
prior to this?

1496
01:22:54,000 --> 01:23:00,520
Drugs Parties.
Well, Oh yes, what's happening

1497
01:23:00,520 --> 01:23:03,040
next?
You said the exogenous theory

1498
01:23:03,360 --> 01:23:06,000
and then I wanted to ask you,
Peter, what what are your views

1499
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:10,920
on free will?
That, that old one, yeah.

1500
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:13,840
So, so, so actually mental
causation is something I'm

1501
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:18,080
particularly interested in.
And I see free will as a subset

1502
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:19,960
of that because you of course
you get psychological

1503
01:23:19,960 --> 01:23:23,400
determinism, which is mental
causation, but it's not free

1504
01:23:24,680 --> 01:23:26,160
shopping house for you, for
example, Right.

1505
01:23:27,360 --> 01:23:35,120
So my, my general take on, on
free will is that I, I think it

1506
01:23:35,520 --> 01:23:39,680
exists to an extent, right?
So I think much of much what we

1507
01:23:39,680 --> 01:23:41,320
do, most of what we do is
probably determined, you know,

1508
01:23:41,320 --> 01:23:43,160
like most of you, you know, when
you walk, of course, you don't

1509
01:23:43,480 --> 01:23:45,600
consciously make that decision
to move your left foot and so

1510
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:46,960
on, right, unless you're
learning.

1511
01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:53,520
So, and obviously you know, your
language and your family

1512
01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:56,680
upbringing and your schooling
and your evolution, you know,

1513
01:23:57,440 --> 01:23:59,400
everything helps determine your
DNA.

1514
01:23:59,800 --> 01:24:02,840
It all helps determine how you
act and whatnot.

1515
01:24:03,760 --> 01:24:06,200
But why do we believe?
Why do people not believe in

1516
01:24:06,200 --> 01:24:08,680
free will?
Well, because it's not a known

1517
01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:10,720
force of physics, right?
It's not electromagnetism,

1518
01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:12,280
gravity, or strong, weak nuclear
force.

1519
01:24:15,040 --> 01:24:20,200
So the first thing I always say
about that is, well, you know,

1520
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:23,600
we know they're not absolutely
deterministic.

1521
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:29,280
Now with quantum theory, of
course, and they're

1522
01:24:29,280 --> 01:24:34,720
probabilistic #1 number 2 with
Whitehead and Hume, David Hume,

1523
01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:37,400
you know, for we know the laws
of nature might fluctuate, you

1524
01:24:37,400 --> 01:24:39,480
know, the speed of light might
change over a million years, you

1525
01:24:39,480 --> 01:24:41,680
know, so we can't really talk
about these hard termined laws.

1526
01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:43,880
We haven't got the right to talk
about it because we cannot

1527
01:24:44,040 --> 01:24:47,440
observe the future to test it.
Hume's problem of induction yet

1528
01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:51,240
#1 So I don't think the laws of
nature are that strict or that

1529
01:24:51,240 --> 01:24:54,800
fixed.
And so that opens up the

1530
01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:58,280
possibility of free will, right?
But another on the other side.

1531
01:24:58,280 --> 01:25:03,600
Now I I love this argument from
people like William James and

1532
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:11,200
Whitehead to a certain extent,
but even Karl Popper that what

1533
01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:14,960
would be the purpose of
consciousness if it had no

1534
01:25:14,960 --> 01:25:17,360
power, if it had no causal
efficacy?

1535
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:20,240
Like what?
What would be its function like

1536
01:25:20,240 --> 01:25:23,840
in So in other words, why would
it have evolved not only in

1537
01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:28,280
human beings, but presumably
amongst many organisms, right.

1538
01:25:28,280 --> 01:25:31,720
Mentality, unless you're you
think only mentality, it adheres

1539
01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:35,760
to human beings like so.
So the immediate retort to that

1540
01:25:35,760 --> 01:25:38,280
is, well, it could be a
spandrel, you know, like, like

1541
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:41,320
the chin, for example, you know,
evolve, but it doesn't play a

1542
01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:42,600
purpose, this kind of side
effect.

1543
01:25:44,680 --> 01:25:49,480
Yeah, but but of course, you
know, spandrels really pertain

1544
01:25:49,480 --> 01:25:51,960
to one species, you know so.
But with Constance, you, you

1545
01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:56,320
expect, you know, you presume
it's many species and it's not

1546
01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:58,880
vestigial, you know, hasn't it's
maintained, Not only has it

1547
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:01,760
evolved, it's maintained itself.
So and of course, most people,

1548
01:26:01,760 --> 01:26:03,960
when you talk about like, well,
why, why did consciousness

1549
01:26:03,960 --> 01:26:05,320
evolve?
They'll say, Oh yeah, so we

1550
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:09,240
could sort of, you know,
differentiate berries from the

1551
01:26:09,240 --> 01:26:10,400
the leaves or something like
that.

1552
01:26:10,400 --> 01:26:13,080
Or we, you know, like when we're
thirsty, it's our body's way of

1553
01:26:13,080 --> 01:26:16,160
telling us to drink.
And our intelligence has caused

1554
01:26:16,160 --> 01:26:18,560
us to create civilization and
technology and whatever, right?

1555
01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:21,480
You'd, most people, most
scientists would accept this,

1556
01:26:21,480 --> 01:26:23,800
you know, that consciousness,
there is mental causation that

1557
01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:26,640
plays a role.
So there's evolutionary good

1558
01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:31,560
evolutionary reasons for, for,
for mental causation.

1559
01:26:34,960 --> 01:26:36,760
So I'm, I'm generally in favour
of it.

1560
01:26:38,160 --> 01:26:45,200
But, but I mean, but another
aspect of it, of course, is, you

1561
01:26:45,200 --> 01:26:48,160
know, if you have you ever read,
I mean, one of the greatest

1562
01:26:48,160 --> 01:26:50,640
philosophers I think of the last
few years is Jake Won Kim.

1563
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:55,720
You know, he presents the
exclusion problem really well,

1564
01:26:56,360 --> 01:26:59,240
the problem with merchantism in
relation to mental causation.

1565
01:27:00,760 --> 01:27:04,840
When I say mental causation,
though, I really mean as a

1566
01:27:04,840 --> 01:27:12,360
panpsychist, I mean physical.
I mean, psychophysical to

1567
01:27:12,360 --> 01:27:15,240
psychophysical causation,
because if you're a monist or a

1568
01:27:15,240 --> 01:27:17,600
panpsychist, it's essentially
the same thing.

1569
01:27:17,600 --> 01:27:21,240
I think then there's not like a
mental to mental and mental to

1570
01:27:21,240 --> 01:27:24,240
physical causation, right.
If if these the mental and the

1571
01:27:24,240 --> 01:27:27,920
physical, if we're not dualists,
we're monists, then there's only

1572
01:27:27,920 --> 01:27:30,680
that lateral causation and that
and that.

1573
01:27:30,680 --> 01:27:34,760
That makes the most sense to me.
Yeah.

1574
01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:38,480
So essentially, I do believe in
a limited free will.

1575
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:43,320
OK, do you have a?
Has anyone have asked you if you

1576
01:27:43,320 --> 01:27:45,160
have a solution to the
combination problem?

1577
01:27:45,160 --> 01:27:48,920
How do you address it?
Yeah, so the combination problem

1578
01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:55,480
really is a problem for a pan
psychism that has emerged in the

1579
01:27:55,480 --> 01:27:58,360
last few decades with Galen
Strauss and Philip Goth and

1580
01:27:58,360 --> 01:28:06,000
people like that.
But the But if you take a pan

1581
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:12,320
experientialist and psychism,
you realize that combination is

1582
01:28:12,320 --> 01:28:15,960
at the very heart of reality,
right?

1583
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:20,840
The fundamental.
So the fundamental entities for

1584
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:24,720
Whitehead are actual entities,
also known as actual occasions

1585
01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:27,160
or events.
And they are, they are

1586
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:30,640
prehensive like I mentioned.
So in other words, the immediate

1587
01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:33,040
past flows into and becomes the
immediate present.

1588
01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:37,000
So there are drops of
experience, but they are

1589
01:28:37,080 --> 01:28:40,040
constituted by the outside.
This is a kind of extended mind

1590
01:28:40,040 --> 01:28:42,240
theory, right?
Not only the immediate past, but

1591
01:28:42,240 --> 01:28:43,680
the immediate surroundings as
well.

1592
01:28:44,200 --> 01:28:51,880
So at the very fundamental base,
as it were, of reality, you get

1593
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:54,200
combination, right?
That's what prehension is, it's

1594
01:28:54,200 --> 01:28:56,920
combination.
And and so the combination

1595
01:28:56,920 --> 01:29:00,080
problem doesn't arise because
that is the sort of axiomatic

1596
01:29:00,080 --> 01:29:04,600
basis of that metaphysics.
The reason for it is partly for

1597
01:29:04,600 --> 01:29:10,400
logical reasons, so that you
can't really, if you didn't

1598
01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:15,160
presume that then you would as
it will break up reality into

1599
01:29:16,240 --> 01:29:19,720
units which kind of succeed each
other.

1600
01:29:20,120 --> 01:29:23,440
This what it calls the fallacy
of simple location.

1601
01:29:24,280 --> 01:29:27,920
And so he says, you know, like
when we think of an entity like

1602
01:29:27,920 --> 01:29:31,120
an atom, we think of it, we
conceptualize it as a single

1603
01:29:31,120 --> 01:29:33,680
entity, but really it's
completely related to its

1604
01:29:33,680 --> 01:29:38,120
outside environment genes.
Likewise, in fact, that that

1605
01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:41,200
hypothesis led to the
development of epigenetics for

1606
01:29:41,200 --> 01:29:42,680
Waddington.
You know that the gene

1607
01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:46,400
expression of genes is related
to its surroundings.

1608
01:29:48,120 --> 01:29:50,120
And the same applies to instance
and time.

1609
01:29:50,320 --> 01:29:53,160
You know, an instant of time is
an abstraction, is a conception

1610
01:29:53,160 --> 01:29:55,240
really.
And you know, like you know,

1611
01:29:55,240 --> 01:29:59,280
flow and the past as it were,
flows into and constitutes

1612
01:29:59,280 --> 01:30:01,560
present.
So in other words, it's a kind

1613
01:30:01,560 --> 01:30:04,040
of logical way of understanding
time and causation and

1614
01:30:04,040 --> 01:30:08,800
perception as prehension, which
therefore means that fundamental

1615
01:30:08,800 --> 01:30:11,160
reality is relational.
That's why it's called process

1616
01:30:11,160 --> 01:30:14,480
relational philosophy.
And another word for relational

1617
01:30:14,480 --> 01:30:18,680
was combat, combatorial.
You know that combinations are

1618
01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:22,040
the very essence of things
because without if you weren't,

1619
01:30:22,040 --> 01:30:24,840
if you didn't believe that, you
think everything's isolated in

1620
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:28,720
nature, and somehow there's some
kind of third relations that

1621
01:30:28,720 --> 01:30:31,880
relate everything together.
So instead of sort of into

1622
01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:37,440
interweaving processes, you get
this kind of, yeah, kind of

1623
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:42,280
discrete atomic universe.
So is it the deep meant?

1624
01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:44,760
If you think about, you know,
reality on this deep

1625
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:47,280
metaphysical level, then that
gets rid of the combination

1626
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:48,880
problem.
If you're a Whiteheadian pan

1627
01:30:48,880 --> 01:30:51,880
psychist, also known as pan
experientialist, he didn't come

1628
01:30:51,880 --> 01:30:53,680
up with that term, by the way.
Griffin did.

1629
01:30:54,160 --> 01:30:57,440
But, you know, it works well.
He's defined as pan psychist as

1630
01:30:57,440 --> 01:31:00,080
well.
And at this point, Cosmo

1631
01:31:00,080 --> 01:31:03,000
psychist, well, it's what you
slowly trying to.

1632
01:31:03,400 --> 01:31:05,040
I'm going up there.
Yeah, I'm beginning.

1633
01:31:07,040 --> 01:31:09,160
Getting higher and higher.
Yeah, exactly.

1634
01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:12,200
How high can you go?
Let's just go all the way.

1635
01:31:12,840 --> 01:31:14,600
No, I'm, I'm not saying I
believe it.

1636
01:31:14,600 --> 01:31:16,600
Like I say, entertain ideas
rather than believe them.

1637
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:18,560
But I think it's very
interesting idea that there's,

1638
01:31:20,720 --> 01:31:22,600
you know, at the moment with
panpsychism, there's just the

1639
01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:25,400
external world is conscious, but
it's like units, as it were, of

1640
01:31:25,400 --> 01:31:28,520
consciousness that do combine.
But how about if there's some

1641
01:31:28,520 --> 01:31:30,000
more unified consciousness out
there?

1642
01:31:30,000 --> 01:31:31,800
You know, that's an interesting
question, and it's not

1643
01:31:31,920 --> 01:31:35,040
completely implausible.
I think the only danger is you

1644
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:38,800
go into, you know, religion, you
know, you call it God, but, you

1645
01:31:38,800 --> 01:31:41,360
know, you call it cosmopsychism.
That sounds quite formal and you

1646
01:31:41,360 --> 01:31:43,280
know.
Most idealist theories

1647
01:31:43,280 --> 01:31:44,880
eventually go down to that
route.

1648
01:31:46,320 --> 01:31:48,600
Yeah.
At some point it tends to hit

1649
01:31:48,600 --> 01:31:53,480
that, that sweet spot.
I some people call it love, some

1650
01:31:53,480 --> 01:31:57,360
people call it the one, some
people call it God, but it tends

1651
01:31:57,360 --> 01:32:00,160
to to get to that point.
I I realise I derail this a bit,

1652
01:32:00,160 --> 01:32:04,760
but you, you, you mentioned
exogenous mind theory and then

1653
01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:07,720
you also mentioned mind at large
this conference which hopefully

1654
01:32:07,760 --> 01:32:09,440
I'll I'll attend but.
Yeah.

1655
01:32:10,640 --> 01:32:11,280
You're most welcome.
Yeah.

1656
01:32:11,560 --> 01:32:12,720
Yeah.
The what?

1657
01:32:12,720 --> 01:32:15,440
In conclusion, this conversation
has been absolutely wonderful.

1658
01:32:15,440 --> 01:32:18,320
Thank you so much.
The so much work that you're

1659
01:32:18,320 --> 01:32:21,920
doing, so much overlap between
philosophy of mind, philosophy

1660
01:32:21,920 --> 01:32:25,040
of psychedelics.
What else in terms of the next

1661
01:32:25,040 --> 01:32:28,240
few years are you looking
forward to, except for those two

1662
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:31,200
aspects we just discussed?
Any concluded points, anything

1663
01:32:31,200 --> 01:32:36,200
you wish that you you'd like to
say as a concluding remark?

1664
01:32:36,640 --> 01:32:37,840
Take as much time as you want
actually.

1665
01:32:39,400 --> 01:32:43,000
I mean, you mean academically or
generally?

1666
01:32:43,440 --> 01:32:47,720
Academically.
Academically, I mean, I'm, I'm,

1667
01:32:47,800 --> 01:32:50,240
I'm always interested in history
as well.

1668
01:32:50,240 --> 01:32:53,920
And I, I always think that
history can inform philosophy.

1669
01:32:53,920 --> 01:32:56,200
You know, this is actually, the
British idealists were really

1670
01:32:56,200 --> 01:32:58,240
into history.
To fully understand something,

1671
01:32:58,240 --> 01:32:59,520
you have to really contextualize
it.

1672
01:33:00,160 --> 01:33:03,600
So I do.
I always am aiming to increase

1673
01:33:03,600 --> 01:33:07,880
my historical knowledge.
That's one thing I'm pursuing.

1674
01:33:08,360 --> 01:33:10,640
I'm looking at plasma physics
now.

1675
01:33:11,720 --> 01:33:14,040
Seems quite interesting.
Something else I'm slowly

1676
01:33:14,040 --> 01:33:19,480
getting into.
I'm all.

1677
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:24,480
Oh yeah, no, actually another
very important new direction I'm

1678
01:33:24,480 --> 01:33:27,520
going is the relationship
between math, physics and

1679
01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:29,320
politics.
I think it's very fascinating.

1680
01:33:30,080 --> 01:33:33,760
It's related to why we believe
what we believe now, but just

1681
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:37,080
the way, for example, Marx
turned away from Hegel's

1682
01:33:37,440 --> 01:33:41,080
dialectical idealism, saying
that it was bourgeois thing, you

1683
01:33:41,080 --> 01:33:47,640
know, and the way that the way
that you know, like we moved

1684
01:33:47,640 --> 01:33:50,160
away from idealism because of
the war partly.

1685
01:33:50,480 --> 01:33:56,080
There's this great book I read
on actually by by John, John

1686
01:33:56,440 --> 01:33:57,720
Meerhead.
I think it's pronounced John

1687
01:33:57,720 --> 01:34:00,440
philosophy in relation to the
war from 19 18.

1688
01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:03,760
You know, first of all, Wolf,
just just quite fascinating.

1689
01:34:04,480 --> 01:34:07,080
So I'm looking at that
relationship getting a bit more

1690
01:34:07,080 --> 01:34:08,360
political.
You know, you have to be

1691
01:34:08,360 --> 01:34:09,880
dangerous again, politics and
religion now.

1692
01:34:09,880 --> 01:34:14,200
Like you shouldn't speak about
that really, but but but that's,

1693
01:34:14,400 --> 01:34:17,000
but that's my trajectory.
I think you're just a

1694
01:34:17,000 --> 01:34:19,520
trailblazer.
You go against the status quo.

1695
01:34:21,080 --> 01:34:23,560
I love it.
I think it's it's it's one of

1696
01:34:23,560 --> 01:34:26,600
the best ways without people
like you doing that, nobody's

1697
01:34:26,600 --> 01:34:29,080
going to do it.
And the work will not get done.

1698
01:34:30,280 --> 01:34:31,000
Right.
Yeah.

1699
01:34:31,120 --> 01:34:32,880
Somebody's got to do it.
Exactly.

1700
01:34:32,880 --> 01:34:35,920
Yeah, it's my my hard life.
No, no, like I said, I can't

1701
01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:39,000
complain.
It's, you know, I, I always aim

1702
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:43,240
to be get a job, be getting paid
to do philosophy in psychedelics

1703
01:34:43,240 --> 01:34:45,080
and that happens.
So I'm happy.

1704
01:34:46,200 --> 01:34:48,960
Well, my first, my first aim
actually was to be a rock star.

1705
01:34:48,960 --> 01:34:51,760
Didn't work out.
It's Plan B Look and.

1706
01:34:52,560 --> 01:34:56,480
It's no time at the conference.
You can always show them your

1707
01:34:56,480 --> 01:34:59,120
skills.
I don't have any skills.

1708
01:34:59,120 --> 01:35:01,040
That was the problem you see.
I see you guys.

1709
01:35:01,120 --> 01:35:04,400
So that's a bit problematic.
Listen, Peter, this has been

1710
01:35:04,400 --> 01:35:07,400
such a wonderful conversation.
I appreciate all the work you're

1711
01:35:07,400 --> 01:35:10,280
doing and this was really cool
man Thanks.

1712
01:35:10,920 --> 01:35:12,520
I really thanks for your
questions.

1713
01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:13,560
Great time.
Thank you.

1714
01:35:13,960 --> 01:35:18,120
Yeah, and I hope we can have
some chats regarding your

1715
01:35:18,120 --> 01:35:20,800
exogenous theory of mind at some
point and let's see where this

1716
01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:23,280
goes and dissect it further in
the future.

1717
01:35:23,840 --> 01:35:25,880
Yeah, thanks.
Yeah, No, I, I have got a draft

1718
01:35:26,000 --> 01:35:29,880
Word file where I'm sort of just
just just, yeah, when people ask

1719
01:35:29,880 --> 01:35:31,520
me like you, you know, what do
you really believe?

1720
01:35:31,520 --> 01:35:33,640
Then I thought, OK, I'll just
need to formalise it a bit.

1721
01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:35,560
So yeah, that'll be my book
after this.

1722
01:35:35,720 --> 01:35:37,080
Metaphysics Psychedelics 1, I
think.

1723
01:35:37,080 --> 01:35:38,600
Yeah.
I'm looking forward to it very

1724
01:35:38,600 --> 01:35:40,080
much.
Thank you once again.

1725
01:35:40,080 --> 01:35:42,000
Any final words, Peter?
Anything you feel like you want

1726
01:35:42,000 --> 01:35:45,480
to clarify or you should have
said, didn't say, said and want

1727
01:35:45,480 --> 01:35:48,480
to correct?
I feel like I haven't spoken

1728
01:35:48,480 --> 01:35:53,560
about Spinoza enough because I'm
a I do admire his work almost

1729
01:35:53,560 --> 01:35:56,360
more than anyone else, but.
I was about to ask you who's

1730
01:35:56,360 --> 01:35:58,960
your who would you put on the
top of that list instead of

1731
01:35:58,960 --> 01:36:01,120
saving them from falling on that
from that Cliff?

1732
01:36:02,000 --> 01:36:03,480
Who is your favorite?
But.

1733
01:36:04,200 --> 01:36:08,960
Well, Spinoza, well, I, I, I
think I focus on pupilos

1734
01:36:08,960 --> 01:36:09,760
Spinoza.
Why?

1735
01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:12,360
I had Nietzsche, Nietzsche more
in the past.

1736
01:36:12,360 --> 01:36:15,440
Now Schopenhauer, I'm getting
him more and more into Bradley.

1737
01:36:16,120 --> 01:36:18,840
FH Bradley, a lost philosopher.
Fantastic.

1738
01:36:18,840 --> 01:36:21,640
I mean, his chapter against
solipsism in appearance and

1739
01:36:21,640 --> 01:36:25,080
reality is I gave it to
Christophe Koch in Philadelphia

1740
01:36:25,080 --> 01:36:27,280
a few months ago because he
said, you know, solipsism is

1741
01:36:27,280 --> 01:36:29,920
just something that you have to
assume, you know, you can't, you

1742
01:36:29,920 --> 01:36:31,920
can't question it, but you can
move on.

1743
01:36:31,920 --> 01:36:34,040
You know, it's actually, no, you
can't question it.

1744
01:36:34,040 --> 01:36:37,120
It's like it's not at all a
logical necessity, right?

1745
01:36:37,120 --> 01:36:39,400
And and Bradley's the best
critic of that.

1746
01:36:39,800 --> 01:36:45,640
So getting back into his work,
Bugson intrigues me as well.

1747
01:36:45,640 --> 01:36:48,920
So although I don't, I'm not a
duelist, maybe he's not a

1748
01:36:48,920 --> 01:36:51,920
duelist.
There's just so much you can you

1749
01:36:51,920 --> 01:36:54,320
can take from bugs and just
really fascinating insights.

1750
01:36:54,320 --> 01:36:56,200
And it's a completely different
way of thinking.

1751
01:36:56,200 --> 01:36:57,880
You know, that's what bugs and
as was and.

1752
01:36:58,960 --> 01:37:01,760
Let's get back to Spinoza.
What about him has changed your

1753
01:37:01,760 --> 01:37:04,160
life and the way you perceive
this entire field?

1754
01:37:05,560 --> 01:37:09,640
I think just, I just love the
way he writes, you know, this

1755
01:37:09,640 --> 01:37:11,680
geometric method, axioms,
propositions, you know,

1756
01:37:11,680 --> 01:37:14,960
corollaries and stuff like that.
Number one, number two,

1757
01:37:15,880 --> 01:37:18,800
essentially what Spinoza offers
is a very simple thing, you

1758
01:37:18,800 --> 01:37:22,560
know, a simple monism that
there's one substance as opposed

1759
01:37:22,560 --> 01:37:25,640
to Descartes 2.
But mind the matter.

1760
01:37:25,640 --> 01:37:28,880
Descartes 2 are just expressions
or attributes of that one

1761
01:37:28,880 --> 01:37:33,200
substance that creates then
panpsychism, that one substance

1762
01:37:33,200 --> 01:37:35,560
he calls nature at the same time
he calls it God.

1763
01:37:35,640 --> 01:37:40,640
So that's the pantheism and just
beautifully parsimonious.

1764
01:37:40,640 --> 01:37:43,000
You know, like I said, the only
thing I don't like about it is

1765
01:37:43,000 --> 01:37:47,960
it's not transitory, it's not
developmental.

1766
01:37:48,240 --> 01:37:49,760
And that was Hegel's critique of
it.

1767
01:37:49,760 --> 01:37:53,240
So in a way, like Hegel took
Spinoza, Spinoza's philosophy

1768
01:37:53,240 --> 01:37:57,720
and sort of just got it rolling.
You know, Nietzsche said without

1769
01:37:57,720 --> 01:38:01,080
Hegel there would be no Darwin,
you know, But I think that Hegel

1770
01:38:01,080 --> 01:38:06,160
went a bit straight.
I'm also, I should say,

1771
01:38:06,240 --> 01:38:09,520
rereading Hegel, I had the most
amazing teacher of Hegel in in

1772
01:38:09,520 --> 01:38:11,040
Warwick University, Stephen
Holgate.

1773
01:38:11,040 --> 01:38:14,080
He's like what leading scholar,
you know, just such an

1774
01:38:14,080 --> 01:38:16,600
inspiration.
We called him Hegel by accident

1775
01:38:16,600 --> 01:38:18,200
quite often.
Holgate because he was sick.

1776
01:38:18,480 --> 01:38:20,520
He was.
So he still is.

1777
01:38:20,520 --> 01:38:25,880
I mean, just so adamant about
the correctness of Hegel and and

1778
01:38:26,920 --> 01:38:29,320
so inspiring.
And so I'm going back to Hegel

1779
01:38:29,320 --> 01:38:32,000
now.
But partly that is only to

1780
01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:36,560
understand where we are now.
Hegel's very difficult to get

1781
01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:40,680
into, but I think quite
rewarding for, you know,

1782
01:38:40,680 --> 01:38:43,480
ultimately I'm also looking at
the other, you know, idealists

1783
01:38:43,480 --> 01:38:46,040
like Fish Stone, Schilling.
I did my I'm going back to the

1784
01:38:46,040 --> 01:38:47,680
beginning.
I did my master's dissertation

1785
01:38:47,680 --> 01:38:50,840
on intellectual intuition and
counts first critique and

1786
01:38:50,840 --> 01:38:53,360
shillings system of
transcendental idealism, some

1787
01:38:53,360 --> 01:38:56,160
sort of and it's like 20 years
ago, so some sort of spinning

1788
01:38:56,160 --> 01:38:57,240
back on that.
Somehow.

1789
01:38:57,720 --> 01:39:00,880
I still think there's like a lot
of insights there that just lost

1790
01:39:00,880 --> 01:39:03,840
and there's just so much you can
take the treasure trip.

1791
01:39:04,040 --> 01:39:06,720
There's like that that part of
German history, you know, like

1792
01:39:06,720 --> 01:39:11,400
in the early, late 1700s, early
1800s, just quite amazing really

1793
01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:16,560
when you look back.
Yeah, So, but also, yeah, I'm,

1794
01:39:16,600 --> 01:39:20,160
I'm really, it's really fun
speaking to like psychedelic

1795
01:39:20,160 --> 01:39:23,200
neuroscientists and and
scientists because they're very

1796
01:39:23,200 --> 01:39:25,600
open minded to metaphysics.
You know, that's a surprising

1797
01:39:25,600 --> 01:39:26,600
thing.
They're not hardcore

1798
01:39:26,600 --> 01:39:28,840
materialists as as you might
expect.

1799
01:39:28,840 --> 01:39:30,920
You know, they're Chris
Timmerman, for example, who

1800
01:39:30,920 --> 01:39:35,080
have, I'm going to London to
speak with him on mysticism

1801
01:39:35,240 --> 01:39:37,280
publicly at UCL in a couple of
weeks.

1802
01:39:38,120 --> 01:39:42,880
He he, he told me to read the
Blind Spot, you know, by Evan

1803
01:39:42,880 --> 01:39:47,320
Thompson and two others, right.
He's an, an activist, I believe,

1804
01:39:47,320 --> 01:39:48,600
you know, he was the last time I
spoke to him.

1805
01:39:48,640 --> 01:39:50,400
So.
Yeah, right.

1806
01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:53,760
So anyway, like the interest,
the great thing really is that

1807
01:39:54,360 --> 01:39:57,600
it's just the fact of the matter
is scientists, of course, they

1808
01:39:57,600 --> 01:39:59,000
can't haven't got time to read
philosophy.

1809
01:39:59,040 --> 01:40:01,040
They don't know about it.
And just like, I don't know

1810
01:40:01,040 --> 01:40:02,760
about quantum theory.
So.

1811
01:40:03,080 --> 01:40:06,320
So it's just nice to sort of
have these conversations and.

1812
01:40:06,960 --> 01:40:09,600
And that people are very open to
it, generally speaking, you

1813
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:11,760
know?
Yeah, I've, I've noticed that

1814
01:40:11,760 --> 01:40:15,720
even with this podcast, it's,
it's really cool to see the

1815
01:40:15,720 --> 01:40:19,400
diversity of thought around
these topics and the openness to

1816
01:40:19,400 --> 01:40:21,480
now learn more about the
different fields.

1817
01:40:21,480 --> 01:40:23,800
Because it seems like everybody
is starting to take this a

1818
01:40:23,800 --> 01:40:27,000
little bit more seriously in
terms of a philosophical framing

1819
01:40:27,000 --> 01:40:30,040
of all these problems.
And, and there seems to be a

1820
01:40:30,040 --> 01:40:32,600
misery resurgence of not only
just psychedelic research, but

1821
01:40:32,600 --> 01:40:34,920
philosophy in general is
becoming a bit more appreciated

1822
01:40:34,920 --> 01:40:37,200
over time.
And that's why it's a philosophy

1823
01:40:37,200 --> 01:40:39,960
podcast, yes.
Yeah, and metaphysics as well.

1824
01:40:39,960 --> 01:40:41,320
You know, we're going through
the metaphysical term.

1825
01:40:41,320 --> 01:40:43,320
I think people are just being,
you know, like returning to it.

1826
01:40:43,320 --> 01:40:44,840
It's like, oh shit, we've got
this whole history.

1827
01:40:44,840 --> 01:40:46,840
We don't have to down to the
East or whatever, although the

1828
01:40:46,840 --> 01:40:48,760
East is quite fascinating in
itself.

1829
01:40:49,440 --> 01:40:51,280
But yeah, no, you're and you're
doing a good job.

1830
01:40:51,280 --> 01:40:54,320
I mean, I'm a big fan of this
podcast, as I said to you a year

1831
01:40:54,320 --> 01:40:57,720
after responding to e-mail, so.
Yeah, it's a.

1832
01:40:58,040 --> 01:41:00,600
It's really interesting, you
know, when I drive to Exeter, I,

1833
01:41:00,680 --> 01:41:02,160
I generally listen to this
podcast.

1834
01:41:02,800 --> 01:41:05,520
Oh, man, that's that's that's so
heart warming and it means a lot

1835
01:41:05,520 --> 01:41:06,360
to me.
Thank you so much.

1836
01:41:06,360 --> 01:41:08,480
No problem.
Yeah.

1837
01:41:08,480 --> 01:41:10,160
And now it's a pleasure for me
to host you.

1838
01:41:10,160 --> 01:41:12,520
And at least this time you can
maybe wonder you listen to your

1839
01:41:12,520 --> 01:41:14,640
own episode, but of Pete
deception.

1840
01:41:17,080 --> 01:41:19,080
Peter, thank you.
This is this has been awesome.

1841
01:41:19,080 --> 01:41:23,000
And I look forward to watching
your journey and hopefully you

1842
01:41:23,000 --> 01:41:25,120
continue to enjoy the podcast in
your drives to Exeter.

1843
01:41:25,720 --> 01:41:27,920
I'm sure I will, and I look
forward to seeing you next to

1844
01:41:27,920 --> 01:41:29,720
them.
Yeah, I'm in I've never been

1845
01:41:29,800 --> 01:41:34,280
I've never been to the UK so oh
really my time been everywhere

1846
01:41:34,280 --> 01:41:36,440
else I think except maybe South
America and the UK.

1847
01:41:36,440 --> 01:41:38,800
So I.
Think I've not got the country

1848
01:41:38,960 --> 01:41:39,520
right?
OK.

1849
01:41:39,840 --> 01:41:42,600
If you're ever in Cape Town,
South Africa, come, you can come

1850
01:41:42,600 --> 01:41:44,920
visit me.
Yeah, actually I've got a good

1851
01:41:44,920 --> 01:41:47,480
friend from Cape Town, so I do
mean to go there one day.

1852
01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:49,440
When you do, I'm knock on the
door.

1853
01:41:49,520 --> 01:41:51,560
I'll.
Try and host a consciousness

1854
01:41:51,560 --> 01:41:54,640
conference in Cape Town.
Cool.

1855
01:41:54,640 --> 01:41:55,760
Cheers Peter.
Thanks so much.