Nir Lahav: Can Physics Explain Consciousness? A Relativistic Theory & the Equivalence Principle

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I love your questions, they are
so good.

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Very interesting question.
Wow you, you almost made me cry.

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You are the first podcast.
I think that I will try to

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explain something from my next
paper to the principle of

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relativity is the key.
And in Cambridge we are we want

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to to do an experiment.
Look for the first time maybe we

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have a solution for the mind
body problem.

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Nina, thanks for joining me
today we're going to discuss and

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dissect your relatively and we
can mind the Pandey new theory

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of consciousness theory of
consciousness.

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I have to say, when when I read
this paper, the first time I

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read it, I I didn't get it.
Part of me was like, I wonder,

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I'm trying to figure out exactly
what he means.

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But the second time I read it,
it was almost like it was

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sudden, obvious, an obvious
reality just hit me.

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And I thought to myself, why
haven't we really tried to do

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this?
This is actually quite a good

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approach.
So I think before we start and

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go to the paper, let's start
with definitions.

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How do you define consciousness
and how do you define relativity

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in terms of from physics?
And then we can slowly move into

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your theory of consciousness
from there.

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Yeah, that's a good question.
Because consciousness, it's,

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it's one of those words that
different people will have

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different definitions for,
right?

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But in consciousness studies,
usually the canonical definition

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is if there is something that is
like for the creature, then the

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creature has consciousness.
So you know, it comes from Negel

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from his paper.
What is it like to be a bet?

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And the idea is that if, let's
say, if the bat has something

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that is like to being, you know,
if, if he has something that is

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like to feel to, to, to maybe to
think to, to, to see the world,

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world, world with his sonar
abilities, then the bat has

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consciousness.
And the same idea is also for

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every creature like us that that
has consciousness.

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So if we have something that is
like to feel or to sense the

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world or, or to think, then we
say, yes, we, we have

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consciousness.
But then let's say when we are

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under anesthesia or in deep
sleep with no dreams, then we

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just have nothing that is like
for us, it's like it goes like

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that, right?
And you wake up.

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So this is consciousness.
This is what we want to

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understand, our ability to
experience the world and

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ourselves.
And then if you had to define

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relativity from the physics
perspective, and then I think

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from there, we'll slowly branch
into your theory of

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consciousness.
Sure.

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Maybe before that also the
mystery, the big mystery here,

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because it sounds relatively
simple that OK, we have our

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brain, we know that our brain
create everything that we do,

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that we think that we feel.
And So what is the problem here?

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But then of course there is this
big mystery of how to bridge the

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gap between the third person
point of view and the first

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person point of view.
The fact that from the outside

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you can measure my brain
patterns when while I see an

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apple, for example, but then I
actually experienced this apple

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and then it's a problem how to
bridge this gap.

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Because from the outside, when
we try to understand how the

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brain represents, how it
represents the apple we are, you

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know, we should speak about some
state space and multidimensional

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state space of the brain.
And then over there are some

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complex representation of those
neural patterns.

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But but in the end, my
experience is not that I don't

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experience this multidimensional
patterns.

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I experience a 3D red round
shape apple.

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And it seems that there is no
way how the brain can create

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this experience because the
brain, all it all it can do is

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to create more and more neural
patterns, maybe more and more

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complex, but no, but no, nowhere
in the brain it can create this

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3D round shaped apple and it
should create it, right?

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We should if, if we, if we think
that the brain should create our

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conscious mind, we, if we are
part of physicalism, you know,

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we are part of physics, then we
should find a mechanism how the

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brain can create it.
And it seems that we cannot find

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it right.
This is the hard problem.

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This is the mystery of
consciousness, right?

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Of phenomenal consciousness, how
they like to call it.

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And Emil, you're obviously
talking about Levine's

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explanatory gap and, and and
and, and the Thomas heart

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problem.
You, you go as far as claiming,

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look, you're able to dissolve
the heart problem and bridge

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this gap.
So let's try and do that.

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Let's try and see how a
relativistic theory of

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consciousness does.
Then let's scratch the

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definition for relativity and go
straight into it, because I

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think it is a better approach to
slowly, systematically break

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this down for people.
That's true.

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So in physics we we know about
properties that are relative or

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relativistic, for example
velocity.

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So constant velocity is a, is a
property that is not absolute.

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It's relative to the frame of
reference and to the

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measurements of the frame of
reference.

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So then if you are on a moving
train with constant velocity and

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I'm on the platform, you, you,
all their experiments that you

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can do on the train will show
you the result that you are

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stationary, you're addressed.
And I am the one with the

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platform that goes backwards,
right?

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And then I of course will say
the opposite to that I'm

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interested in.
You are the one that moves.

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And from a physical point of
view, we cannot distinguish who

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is right and who is wrong.
There is a symmetry here between

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those two frames of reference.
That's why there is.

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It's a relative phenomenon.
OK, Both of us are right at the

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same time.
So this example shows us what is

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the principle of relativity.
The principle of relativity of

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relativity means that there is
no absolute property.

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Every natural property that we
can think of should be relative

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to a frame of reference to some
measurements that an observer

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can do.
Now I have to say two things.

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You know, one question that
always people ask me is do I

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mean that my theory is based on
Einstein relativity theory of

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Florence, transformation and
space and time and all that.

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And the answer is no, there's
no.

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It's something completely
different.

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The, the only thing that is in
common here is that I use the

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principle that guided Einstein,
the principle of relativity.

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It also guided the Galileo
before, for example, Right.

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So it's a principle about how
things are in nature.

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And now what is the ontology of
nature?

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And yeah.
And it just means that there's

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nothing absolute.
And all there are are those

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observers and the measurements
that they can do.

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And now it can help us.
Well, what I try to claim is

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that it can help us to dissolve
the hard problem.

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And you can think and, and why
actually it's interesting to, to

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ask you, what was the difference
for you between the first time

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that you read it the, the paper
and the second time?

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I wonder because for me, you
know, I'm into it, right?

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So, so for me, it's, it's, it's
obvious.

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Let's say why it, it, it, it
won't, it, it's working.

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And then it's really interesting
to hear from someone else.

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What was the process that, that
you actually got in order to, I

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don't know, to see that.
Oh, maybe there is something

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there.
Honestly, for anyone who hasn't

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read the paper, obviously read
it and try and get a deeper

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understanding of it.
But the, and the first main

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assumption you do take so that I
just want everyone to be clear,

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is that this is a physicalist
theory of consciousness, not

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necessarily a reductive
materialist approach, but a

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physicalist approach.
So the main assumption here is

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this is physicalist.
And the, the first time I read

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it, I remember going through it,
finishing the paper and

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thinking, OK, if this
equivalence principle, which

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we'll get into afterwards is
occurring, how does this affect

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certain systems that are so
complex, like biological systems

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and, and physics we struggle
with in biology to just simplify

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things into a physical
understanding, let's say.

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And as a doctor, someone who
practices medicine, biology is

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very much ingrained in my, in my
overall experience, I would say.

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And, and, and it took me a while
to sort of understand exactly

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what you meant.
But the second time I read it,

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when, when, when I looked at the
mathematical formalization of

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this and the way you were
approaching it as a physicist

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and not as a philosopher, it
started to make a little bit

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more sense how this is coming
together.

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And I know you had help.
I forgot his name, is it

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Zechariah?
Yes, yes, exactly the.

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Philosopher and you guys managed
to get this together and it

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slowly then clicked to me.
And I know the last person

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before I took the break from
this podcast who I spoke to was

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Robert Lawrence Kuhn.
And you're in the relational

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category in that In the Last
Name of consciousness.

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And I know you're there with
Andy Clark and a few others, but

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at that point I started to think
and try and fuse it together

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with those thinkers.
And then it sort of started to

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click for me.
It was like, OK, this

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equivalence principle can sort
of be applied in this way.

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And but I'll let you explain
that to people.

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Let's let's almost paint a
picture for them and make it

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easier because I don't want what
happened to me in my

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misunderstanding to occur for
the listener or the viewer.

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So, so let's look at this
problem one more time.

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You're talking about, let's say
you can, we can either use

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Einstein in the lift to dropping
something down, or we could just

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use the train scenario.
Two people having a

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disagreement, however,
experiencing something that's

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almost the same.
When we speak about relativity,

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until my hearing right, it's not
about consciousness, it's not

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about how we perceive the world,
it's about physics.

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It's about nature as it is and
we are just another observer.

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There's nothing special with us,
OK.

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And I so I don't, and this is a
good assumption.

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This is something that we always
assume when we do physics, we

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try to understand nature.
And so from the point of view of

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the laws of nature, you cannot
distinguish if if there is a

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system under constant velocity
or stationary.

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OK, So there's no relation
between that and our experience

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of consciousness.
Now what I try to do is to take

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the same idea.
Let's let's have a look on

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consciousness from a physical
point of view, not from our

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perspective, what we think about
it, but from the perspective of

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nature, of the laws of natures,
and to try to see how a property

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like consciousness can arise.
And what they're trying to claim

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is firstly, we have this gap
right between the third third

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person point of view and the
first person point of view.

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But if we think from a
relativistic approach, then it

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makes sense that we'll have this
seemingly 2 points of view.

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We just need to think about them
as two different frames of

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reference, or as I call it in
the paper, cognitive frames of

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reference.
And then each cognitive frame of

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reference can do different
measurements on the environment

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and because of those
measurements it can it will

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manifest different physical
properties.

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One of those properties can be
consciousness and another

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property can be neural patterns.
But again, the point here is

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that I speak from a physical
point of view.

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It's not our choice if we see
consciousness or not.

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It's OK, I try, I, you know,
later on we'll see how.

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But I try to show a mechanism, a
physical mechanism.

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Why in our brain we have some
kind of interactions or

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measurements that must create
this new physical property that

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we call it consciousness.
OK, so this is the idea.

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And if we succeed, then we can
show like a plausible

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explanation how to bridge the
gap because now we have to.

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It's not, you know, it's not two
different points of view.

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It's just two different frames
of reference.

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And it's obvious that one frame
of reference can create

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different physical properties
than the other.

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And that's why they, you know,
when they actually don't agree,

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Just like with velocity, in
velocity we will not agree,

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right?
Who is stationary and who is

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moving.
Also with consciousness it's the

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same because when I look at your
brain, I cannot find your

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conscious experience and
anywhere all in your patterns.

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So I can conclude that maybe you
are very sophisticated robot or

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a zombie, right, with no
consciousness.

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00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,400
And you, when you look at me,
it's the opposite.

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00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,560
I mean, for you, you know that
you have consciousness, but for

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00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,200
me, you, you, you cannot find
it.

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00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:00,760
So it's very similar.
You see, like with velocity, how

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00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,040
it seems like there is a
contradiction here.

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00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:08,360
But actually if, if, if we are
thinking from a relativistic

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00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,200
point of view, there is no
contradiction, just different,

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00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:20,800
you know, measurements or
different, different ways to

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00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:26,200
describe reality.
And and then when you talking

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00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,320
about measurements, you know,
you're obviously talking about

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00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,080
something akin to an observer.
So in physics, when we're

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00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,320
talking about an observer, and
that can be anything from a

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00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,920
measuring via a tool, I mean,
maybe using your eye as the

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00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,480
measuring tool.
So this is a very much physics

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00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,840
perspective of consciousness.
And then you introduce what's

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00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:46,240
known as the equivalence
principle.

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00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:51,920
Do you want to go into that?
Yeah, just it's very important

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00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,080
to note what you just said and
because again, people ask me

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00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:00,080
about, you know, about it.
And so again, I come from

246
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,920
physical point of view.
And in physics, a measurement is

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00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,840
just another name for
interaction, more or less.

248
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,040
It's it's more complicated than
that, of course, in quantum

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00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,720
mechanics.
But for, you know, to us, we can

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00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:21,280
define it as interactions and an
observer can be anything.

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00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:27,680
The electron is an observer and
it measures let's say a magnetic

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00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,880
field because of the
electromagnetic interaction.

253
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,040
This is the measurement, let's
say between them.

254
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:44,000
OK, so, so again, it's not about
us as a as, as a subjective

255
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,400
person that can choose or
whatever.

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00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:51,560
Now it's about physics and about
the laws of, of, of, of nature.

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00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:58,280
I'd say OK and then, OK.
So keeping in mind in mind this

258
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:04,000
part, we can move on to the
equivalence principle because in

259
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,520
relativity, if we have two
different frames of reference,

260
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:13,599
but all the experiments that
they do show the same results,

261
00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:17,079
exactly the same results, then
because we cannot distinguish

262
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,440
between them and because there's
nothing absolute here in

263
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,000
relativity, then they are the
same.

264
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,119
They are equivalent.
They have the same laws of

265
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,600
nature and we just cannot
distinguish between them.

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00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:36,120
OK, there's nothing absolutely.
So let's take this notion and

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00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:37,840
apply it to consciousness,
right?

268
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,000
Again, we assume now that
consciousness is a relativistic

269
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,560
physical phenomenon and and
let's see what will happen.

270
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:49,160
So then I take the zombie
argument.

271
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:55,120
Chalmers, you know, wrote about
it a lot in his book Right in

272
00:17:55,120 --> 00:17:57,800
the Conscious Mind.
So I take this zombie argument

273
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:03,440
and notice that in the zombie
argument we cannot distinguish

274
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:04,920
between the zombie and the
human.

275
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,040
They have the same physics and
the same body and the same

276
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,160
brain, the same cognitive
system.

277
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,800
So the same dynamics in the
brain at the same

278
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,560
representations and the same
neural patterns.

279
00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:20,680
Of course, the same behavior,
the same reports, everything is

280
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,440
the same, so we cannot
distinguish between them.

281
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,240
Any experiment at all that the
zombie will do upon himself and

282
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:32,400
any experiment that the person,
the human will do upon himself

283
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,240
will will have the same results.
So according to the principle of

284
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:42,120
relativity, there's nothing
absolute beyond those observers.

285
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,080
If there's no nothing that can
be distinguished between them,

286
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:52,920
then they are equivalent and,
and, and from the argument

287
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:58,160
itself there is, you know, they
are the same.

288
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,080
There's nothing that can be
distinguished.

289
00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:05,200
So it means that also because
they are equivalent now also

290
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,200
consciousness should be
equivalent in both of them.

291
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,000
So if the human has
consciousness also the zombie

292
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,880
must have consciousness as well.
So if not.

293
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,400
Sorry, sorry again, it's almost
insane.

294
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,360
If the prime information of both
machines, let's say us and the

295
00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:26,000
zombie, if the prime information
are similar or if not the same,

296
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:31,760
leading to a similar conclusion,
then it's it's OK to then assume

297
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,120
with this relativistic theory
that then therefore

298
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:36,800
consciousness exists in both
species.

299
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:42,000
Yeah, but yeah, but you do need
to remember that again, from a

300
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,440
physical point of view, it's
about the physical experiments,

301
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,520
experiments that each of each of
those systems can do.

302
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,560
So all the experiments that the
zombie zombie can do it on

303
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:59,000
himself, let's say, and all the
experiments experiments that the

304
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,640
person could do.
On himself will show no

305
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,280
difference.
All the results will be the

306
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,000
same.
And if you're saying

307
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,440
experiments, are you then
referring to self questioning,

308
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,240
almost self doubt, subjective
thought, internal monologues?

309
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,040
Or are you talking about some
sort of an objective approach

310
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,040
like scanning, trying to figure
out brain waves, trying to

311
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,800
figure out computational models
within the in the algorithm of

312
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:23,120
the AI?
What?

313
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:25,640
What exactly would you be
referring to in this sense?

314
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,200
Everything, all the experiments
that you did that you just

315
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,240
mentioned.
So this inner, inner thoughts,

316
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,600
inner monologue, but also the
behavior and also the dynamics

317
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,800
in the brain.
Let's say everything.

318
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,720
And then according to the
argument, everything should be

319
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,840
the same.
The zombie will argue that he

320
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:50,360
also has an or she, you know,
also has some, some sort of

321
00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:53,920
inner monologue, for example.
It's it's so we cannot.

322
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:58,120
Distinguish even in your paper,
you also talk about illusionism

323
00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:00,480
and then you go into
naturalistic dualism as well.

324
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,560
And, and I've noticed that
because quite a few authors tend

325
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,600
to get illusionism very much
misunderstood and incorrect.

326
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,640
But you managed to you, you
really get illusionism as a

327
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,280
theory of consciousness.
And you can tell that you

328
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,240
they're not just saying that
this isn't this doesn't exist.

329
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,040
I mean, this is a very much real
experience.

330
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,440
It's the way we're interpreting
afterwards that's that's leading

331
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:25,000
to the misunderstanding.
Let's say that you you then you

332
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,040
mentioned the dual aspect monism
at some point.

333
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:28,720
I think I remember reading that
at some point.

334
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,520
How would you describe theory if
you had to?

335
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,320
You had to apply it into a
philosophical category because I

336
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,480
know a lot of Robert
Interrelational theory of

337
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,520
consciousness.
Philosophically, how would you

338
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:44,920
describe yours?
So first of all, it's not, as

339
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,800
you said before, it's not a
materialistic and materialistic

340
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,320
how, how do you call it a
reductive materialism?

341
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,840
Because we didn't speak about it
deeply enough.

342
00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:02,920
But my theory, in my theory,
it's not enough to have only

343
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,200
calculations.
If if you have a machine like

344
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:11,560
our brain that does a lot of
calculations, it's not enough.

345
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,240
We'll still have this gap.
And that's why it's not a

346
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,640
reductive materialism where you
can take consciousness and do a

347
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,360
reduction into all the
calculations of, you know, that

348
00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:26,920
the brain can do.
It's more about physics.

349
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:32,720
It's about how we have natural
properties in the world, how new

350
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:38,320
properties can merge or can be
realized in the world.

351
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,480
And for that we need to take
relativity, the relativistic

352
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,400
principle into account.
OK, So it means that it's part

353
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,640
of physicalism, but it's not a
redactive materialism.

354
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,840
And I think that relational,
the, the name relational theory,

355
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,360
it's pretty, pretty good name in
that sense, because relational

356
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,880
is a part of the principle of
relativity actually.

357
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,920
And I always like to give an
example from Einstein relativity

358
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:18,000
to show how relational goes in,
you know, get inside the

359
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,760
relativistic approach.
So let me tell you a bit about

360
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,000
the about that maybe.
So Einstein speak about the

361
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:31,120
equivalence principle, and in
his case it's the equivalence

362
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:35,520
between acceleration and
gravity.

363
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:42,840
So let's think about two
spacecrafts. 1 spaceship is here

364
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:49,320
on Earth and one is in outer
space, far away from any star,

365
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:54,160
any gravitational object.
Now the astronauts in in those

366
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,840
two spaceships are doing the
same experiments.

367
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,440
For example, they take a ball in
their hands and release the ball

368
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,280
here on Earth.
It's pretty easy to understand

369
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,840
what will happen when she
release the ball.

370
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,200
It will just fall into the
ground right inside the

371
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,160
spaceship.
Now in out of space, let's say

372
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,440
that our spaceship is
accelerating upwards towards the

373
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,120
ceiling, if we can call it, you
know the ceiling of the space

374
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,240
spacecraft.
And then she release the ball

375
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,880
from her hand.
Now because of the acceleration,

376
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,960
now the ball is not attached to
the but the OR to the

377
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:43,560
accelerated spaceship and and so
the ball continues with its own

378
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:48,000
velocity while the astronaut in
the spaceship accelerates

379
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,880
upwards.
So from her point of view, what

380
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,880
she will see is that the ball
goes down, right, accelerate

381
00:24:54,880 --> 00:25:01,120
down all the way to the floor,
exactly as the case on Earth or

382
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,080
under gravitation, right.
So Einstein realized, realized

383
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:11,120
that this is a general thing
that no matter which experiment

384
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:14,440
we will try to do, we cannot
distinguish between the system

385
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,600
under gravitational field and
the system under acceleration.

386
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:24,880
And that's why again, there is a
those two systems are relative

387
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,560
to the observers.
There's nothing absolute here.

388
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:32,720
And because the two observers
have the same, the same

389
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,840
measurements, the same results,
then they are equivalent.

390
00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:40,080
OK, so this is so until now we
just gave, I just gave you

391
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,400
another example for the
principle of relativity.

392
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,560
But now let me show you why it's
also there is a relational

393
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,120
assumption there.
Now again, what what is

394
00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:56,920
relationalism?
It means that the properties of

395
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,120
nature themselves, they are not
absolute.

396
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:05,760
They realized because of
measurements of the relations

397
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,360
that a system can measure.
And this is exactly, exactly

398
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:15,920
what we see here, because let's
think about this spaceship in

399
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,240
outer space, the accelerating
spaceship.

400
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,200
And now let's take another
astronaut from the outside that

401
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,120
observes this accelerating
spaceship.

402
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:32,120
So from the outside, the
relations that this astronaut

403
00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:40,560
measures will will manifest for
him an an acceleration or a

404
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,640
space spaceship that is
accelerated and there's no

405
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,560
gravity over there, right?
But from the inside of the

406
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:54,240
spaceship, when we transform
into this frame of reference,

407
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,480
now there's no acceleration at
all, but there is a different

408
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,480
physical property.
There is a gravity force all of

409
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,760
a sudden.
OK, so we see now that from

410
00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:10,200
different points of view,
different frames of reference

411
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,360
manifest different physical
properties.

412
00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:17,800
I like to say a bit, it's a bit
like in a coin when you see a

413
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,480
head or tail, right?
So we can like manifest

414
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:27,280
different physical properties
even and the same should happen

415
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,880
with consciousness.
Again, if consciousness is

416
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:35,880
relativistic, then it can
explain why from from the

417
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:41,480
outside, from a third person
frame of reference, I measure

418
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,320
one thing, I measure newer
patterns, but from the inside,

419
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:48,120
just like from the inside of the
spaceship, if you like, here

420
00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:51,960
from the inside of our brain, we
measure completely different

421
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:58,960
results and we measured and, and
there is a manifestation of a

422
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,240
new physical property, which we
call consciousness.

423
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:05,840
So this is the idea here.
And again, it's like 2.

424
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,600
It's like the head and the tail.
Both of us, you know, from the

425
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,040
outside and from the inside
describe the same underlying

426
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,280
reality, but from different
points of view and with

427
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,080
different relationalism.
Here different physical

428
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:26,400
properties has had realized in
those two different frames of

429
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,240
reference, like newer patterns
and the phenomenal consciousness

430
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,120
if you like.
And then you tell me when

431
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,760
similar to Einstein, I mean, he
obviously came up with his

432
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,400
thought experiments to figure
out his use.

433
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,160
At what point did you think
about consciousness and then

434
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,040
realize that, OK, this could be
something that's relative and

435
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,480
this could be this could be
approached in a similar way.

436
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,240
I know you're a big fan of
Einstein, but was it his work

437
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,160
specifically or or did it just
come to you at some point?

438
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,280
Similar in a thought.
Experience.

439
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:02,000
Wow, that's a great question.
So actually I always liked the

440
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:09,160
principle of relativity.
I always felt that there is a

441
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,200
lot of potential with this
principle and that we can

442
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:18,040
explain all of the mysteries
that we now have, like quantum

443
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:24,960
mechanics, for example, how you
know how to continue and and

444
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:29,880
create the next theory, you
know, that will capture both

445
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,360
general relativity and quantum
mechanics.

446
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:38,000
So my intuition was and still is
that the principle of relativity

447
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,720
is the key to do that.
And so I, when I started and

448
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,480
even before I started to learn
physics in the university, I, I

449
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:52,800
thought about it and I started
to develop theories how you know

450
00:29:52,800 --> 00:30:00,200
how to continue and develop this
principle of relativity.

451
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,640
And I guess that's why I was
used to think from this

452
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:13,160
relativistic approach.
Now I all, I, I also, I love all

453
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,920
those mysteries that we have in
nature because those mysteries,

454
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,760
those are the doors for me, at
least to, you know, to

455
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,000
understand what is out there,
you know, to understand another

456
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,240
patches of, of Infinity.
Let's say it's like to open the

457
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,720
door and to see Narnia for me.
And then consciousness is one of

458
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,960
those mysteries.
And then during COVID, actually,

459
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:47,320
I, I think I understood that I
can do, I, I can create a theory

460
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,440
with the principle of relativity
to explain consciousness just

461
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,520
because I took lots of, of
classes from UC Berkeley

462
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:00,480
actually about cognitive science
and it was covered.

463
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,720
I didn't have other things to do
right.

464
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,920
So I took, it was like a
marathon of lots of classes

465
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,040
about cognitive science.
And all of a sudden all of this

466
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,600
knowledge, you know, merge into
this theory.

467
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,280
So this is how I got to this
approach.

468
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,840
How has it been as a if someone
with a physics background trying

469
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,760
to convince an audience of
philosophers a philosophical

470
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,960
theory of consciousness?
How's that transition been for

471
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,240
you?
You know when when you're in the

472
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,600
middle, you get hit from both
sides?

473
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,240
Like great great place to be in.
I can't imagine I'm the first.

474
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,320
It's, it's a radical new way of
thinking about it for many

475
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:48,800
people.
I'm pretty sure some people,

476
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,240
they get the concept, they,
they, they understand it, but

477
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,920
it's, it's, it's very different
from the usual theories of

478
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,120
consciousness.
And it's also very different

479
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,080
from the usual theories in
physics, some from so.

480
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,920
So physicists, when they hear
about it, they don't understand

481
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,960
what I want from them.
You know, why there is a hard

482
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,160
problem to begin with, for
example.

483
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,520
And then people from cognitive
science, neuroscience,

484
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:24,720
philosophers, they really, it's
hard for them to grasp this

485
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,320
physical point of view, for
example, what we started from to

486
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,200
think from this point of view of
the laws of nature and not to

487
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:37,360
think from our own perspective.
You know, it's not our choice if

488
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,640
we have consciousness.
So not, for example, it's a

489
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,000
physical process that happens in
our brain, you know.

490
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,560
So this notion is also hard for
them.

491
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,800
And then of course, when I come
with mathematics, it's like.

492
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,000
I can imagine the non
physicalist philosophers

493
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,440
attacking you and then obviously
the physicist because physical

494
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,160
physicalism is their ultimate
reality and understanding

495
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,560
obviously coming at you as well.
So yeah, it is a bit of a sticky

496
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:07,080
situation to be in.
Yes, yes, but I mean, it's, it's

497
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,520
fun in the end of the day
because I, I, I feel that I do

498
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,960
have something nice to show and
then it's, it's fun to try and

499
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,760
show them, you know, the hidden,
the deeper layers that maybe

500
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,080
they, they didn't see to begin
with, you know.

501
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,120
Quite seriously, I mean,
obviously Robert included it in

502
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,240
his landscape, which you're
among legends, if you think

503
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,320
about it.
I mean your your name with with

504
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,160
tremendously influential
thinkers.

505
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,840
How's the reception been for you
this paper and and when you came

506
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,000
out of it?
What's happened since then?

507
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,280
Wow, let's see.
So first of all, something very

508
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:54,200
nice that happened in 2021.
Was it I think the paper one to

509
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,920
be one of the most influential
papers of 2020.

510
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,320
Sorry, 2020.
When was it 2022?

511
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:02,120
Sorry.
Yeah.

512
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,120
So one of the most information
papers of 2022.

513
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:13,960
And now inside Academy.
It's very interesting, the

514
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:19,880
reaction of neuroscientists.
Actually, most of them told me

515
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:27,520
that it's a very nice
intellectual idea, but how can I

516
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,320
prove it?
Do I have any experiment to

517
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,000
check if it's right or wrong,
you know, And next question.

518
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,880
Yeah, but I mean, for me, of
course, it's very important.

519
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,159
And without experiments we
cannot distinguish, right?

520
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:47,159
We don't.
We cannot know how to how to

521
00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:50,280
carry on or which theory is a
good one and which one is not.

522
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,360
So of course it's very
important, but it's not the only

523
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,760
thing, you know, I, I come from
physics and in physics we have

524
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,440
theoretical physics and
experimental physics, and it's

525
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,440
not the same.
No one expected Einstein or

526
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:10,360
Stephen Hawking or Roger Penrose
to do experiments, you know,

527
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,280
but, but here in neuroscience,
it's not the case because it's

528
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:19,680
very young discipline and it's,
it's very oriented towards

529
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,440
experiments.
They don't really have

530
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,600
theoretical neuroscience.
I, I would say not as, not as,

531
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,520
not as something that I know
from physics.

532
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:31,160
So then for them, they don't
really care a lot about the

533
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,240
theory.
You know, I tried to tell them,

534
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:35,680
but but wait before the, the,
the experiment.

535
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:40,760
Look, I have for the first time,
OK, let's say that I'm let's say

536
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,000
that I'm not so modest.
And I tried to say, look, for

537
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,560
this first time, maybe we have a
solution for the mind body

538
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,040
problem.
Don't you think it's, it's

539
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:55,040
worthwhile to to go deep into
that, even if we still don't

540
00:35:55,040 --> 00:36:01,200
have the experiment?
No, because you know, only for

541
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:06,200
the theoretical sake, we have
here a puzzle that we didn't

542
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,320
know how to solve for 2000
years.

543
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:15,760
So maybe if, if there is an
interesting way to solve it,

544
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,280
maybe the, you know, maybe there
is something here.

545
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,200
So let's, let's dip into it.
But again, most of them don't

546
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:28,520
really like, you know, to go to
the deep to the theory and they

547
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:34,760
want me to go as quickly as I
can to the to do an experiment

548
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:37,440
to check if.
It's, I think a lot of

549
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,040
physicalist theories of
consciousness are at a

550
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,960
disadvantage because of that.
Because when if you if you take

551
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,400
an idealist or or a pan
psychist, it, it's a lot easier

552
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,040
to make philosophical arguments
that that make logical sense and

553
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,320
then you can just get away with
it because it's very difficult

554
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,040
to put that to the test.
I mean, how do you really test

555
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,320
idealist philosophers?
I mean, you get you have like

556
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,920
Donald Hoffman and certain other
people who are doing active

557
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,520
experimentation, but a
physicalist has is almost like

558
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,240
you have to show us.
Sure, yeah.

559
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,600
What is the?
Plan what's going to happen

560
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,720
within the next few years.
I mean, obviously you're trying

561
00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:16,080
to get funding.
If anyone wants to fund your

562
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,160
research, obviously I'll put a
link to your website as well.

563
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,240
What is your?
Yeah.

564
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,720
So yeah, actually you're right.
Maybe if if you already already

565
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:31,120
mentioned it, I will mention
that I started this year a a

566
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:39,320
postdoc in the Cognition and
Consciousness Lab in Cambridge

567
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:47,440
University in England.
And we also try to reach the

568
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:54,760
public and to do fundraising,
you know, like I forgot the name

569
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,920
of the go fund me.
Yeah, go, go fund me.

570
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:01,800
Right.
So we, we opened the go go fund

571
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,440
me in order to, to fund this,
this researcher.

572
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:11,320
So if you like to, to help us,
then please go to the link over

573
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:16,320
there.
And, and in Cambridge, we are,

574
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:21,520
we want to, to do an experiment
to check the, the theory.

575
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,720
But in order to understand what
the experiment is, we need to go

576
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,760
even deeper into the theory.
We just started, let's say.

577
00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:34,520
So let's go.
So let's dive in a bit more.

578
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:41,040
So first question is, you can
ask me what is the difference?

579
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,280
I mean, according to the
approach, we, we have two

580
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:51,160
different frames of reference,
third person frame of reference

581
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,800
and the first person frame of
reference from the inside.

582
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,400
And what I try to say is that
the measurements that we do from

583
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,800
the inside, from our brain,
those measurements or

584
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,480
interactions are very different
from the one that we're doing

585
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,720
from the outside.
So first question is, is it

586
00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:12,880
true?
OK.

587
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,480
And then the second question is
what are those measurements

588
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,120
exactly?
So first of all, let me show you

589
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,560
that it's very different indeed.
And I think it's pretty obvious

590
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,280
to see it because from the
outside, in order to observe, to

591
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:33,400
do a measurements, we must use
our sensory devices like our

592
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,880
eyes or our ears.
But from the inside, we don't

593
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:42,040
have any sensory devices like
eyes or ears, right?

594
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:47,200
So that's why from the inside
our interactions or measurements

595
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,200
are completely different.
And that's why I try to say that

596
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,640
it it will manifest different
physical properties.

597
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:02,640
Now, now you can ask which kind
of measurements we have from the

598
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:07,000
inside.
What, what do I, what do we do

599
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,800
for what our brain does
actually?

600
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,480
So we have different.
About different areas in our

601
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:22,000
neural network, each of them
interact with other sub networks

602
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,600
and then we have those neural
patterns that represent

603
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,200
something.
So, so now we have interactions

604
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,680
between those neural patterns
and what the brain can do is

605
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:39,760
just compare those neural
patterns in order to check the

606
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:44,880
differences and the resemblance
between those neural patterns in

607
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,680
order to reconstruct what we
see, what we hear, you know,

608
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,560
and, and, and and create
thoughts and and feelings.

609
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,840
And then, OK, so now you can ask
me.

610
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:03,560
OK, until now it sounds very
simple, physical neuro

611
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,840
neuroscientists theory, right?
Nothing special.

612
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,400
How can we get to consciousness
from here?

613
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,240
OK, so for that I will you are
the first podcast.

614
00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:22,280
I think that I will try to
explain something from my next

615
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,720
paper.
Now I'm right, I'm writing a

616
00:41:25,720 --> 00:41:30,840
paper to explain exactly what is
the mechanism of what are the

617
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,360
measurements inside our brain
that manifest consciousness.

618
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,120
And hopefully I will finish the
paper soon.

619
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:43,320
And you know, we'll publish it.
So let me try to explain it.

620
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,440
And please tell me how was the
explanation because it's, it's

621
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,320
my first time.
So sorry for the if it will not

622
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,760
be clear enough, but let's try,
let's try to do this.

623
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,040
So what I tried to to
understand, I, I, I start from a

624
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,560
different question.
I start from the question of

625
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,360
emergence.
What is an emergence, for

626
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,280
example?
So emergence in physics means

627
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:16,560
that we have some kind of
physical property that it's

628
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,240
bigger than the sum of its
parts.

629
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,240
Everybody know about water, for
example, example.

630
00:42:23,240 --> 00:42:27,960
Water is the canonical example
for emergent property because we

631
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:33,560
have the oxygen and hydrogen
molecules and when they they

632
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:39,080
interact together, all of a
sudden we have a new physical

633
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:44,720
property, water that has new
properties that they don't have,

634
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,560
right.
They it's like a wetness if you

635
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:57,360
like, or, or all even
temperature and all those macro

636
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,000
properties.
OK, so this is example for

637
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:07,400
emergence, but we don't have any
good theory in physics still to

638
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,200
explain.
Is there like a unification, a

639
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:16,480
unified mechanism for emergence?
And is it real?

640
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,720
Is it real?
Because some philosopher will

641
00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:24,600
tell you that water or any
emergence is not real.

642
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,040
Like there's no real ontology
there.

643
00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:33,880
It's our convenience to to speak
about water, but actually what's

644
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,600
really there are the musicals.
And then even the musicals are

645
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:39,360
not really there.
What's really there are the

646
00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:47,440
elementary particles, right?
So we're all just is how to say

647
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,000
a sea of, of elementary
particles and that's it.

648
00:43:52,720 --> 00:43:58,040
And I don't agree with that.
And actually you can understand

649
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:02,320
why if you think from the
relativistic approach.

650
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,800
Because what?
So those kind of philosophers, I

651
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,920
think that the name of this
approach is eliminativism.

652
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:19,160
They eliminate everything, you
know, but they take an absolute

653
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:20,640
approach.
Here.

654
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:26,600
There's only one absolute frame
of reference, which is the most

655
00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:31,720
elementary substance of reality,
right?

656
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,520
Of let's say fields or particles
or something like that.

657
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:42,760
But if if the relativistic
approach is true, then it's a

658
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,240
mistake.
There's no absolute frame of

659
00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:52,640
reference anymore.
And then all we have now are

660
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:55,480
different observers, right?
Different frames of reference.

661
00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:02,760
So then micro in the micro world
there it's, you know, 1 frame of

662
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,200
reference, the micro frame of
reference.

663
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:14,000
And over there something will
measure just the musicals of

664
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:18,640
hydrogen and oxygen, and they
cannot observe or they cannot

665
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,280
measure water at all.
But from the macro frame of

666
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,400
reference, like our frame of
reference, we cannot measure

667
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,720
molecules at all, but we can
measure water, and then water is

668
00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:35,040
the real phenomena.
This is exactly relationalism

669
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:40,120
again, right?
So, so you see now how all of a

670
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:44,800
sudden when we take really the
principle of relativity

671
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:49,520
seriously enough, we see that it
can explain also what is an

672
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,000
emergence.
And it shows us that emergence

673
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,680
is a real thing.
It's a real physical property

674
00:45:54,680 --> 00:46:01,280
that that manifested just
because of relationalism, just

675
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:07,120
because that in our macro frame
of reference, we have some

676
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,920
relations that we can measure
and not other relations like in

677
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:17,040
the micro frame of reference.
OK, So now that in mind we can

678
00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:24,560
go into the mind and we can go
into our brain and explain what

679
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,320
is consciousness.
So now consciousness will be an

680
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:33,120
emergent property.
But from a relativistic point of

681
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,560
view, again, from this point of
view that I just described, and

682
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,240
in order to get to
consciousness, first of all, we

683
00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:45,480
need to start from a lower
level, which is cognitive,

684
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,920
cognitive frames of reference.
So first of all, I will show you

685
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,200
something interesting about
cognitive frames of reference

686
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:59,200
and then consciousness, OK, It's
a bit like we start from the

687
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:04,560
micro musicals, then we go to
water, and then we'll go even

688
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:08,760
higher to the next emergence of
waves on the water.

689
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,040
OK?
So the waves will be like

690
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,360
consciousness, if you like, in
this analogue.

691
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:22,080
All right, So what is a
cognitive system for from this

692
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:27,600
relativistic approach, a
cognitive system, it's, it's

693
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,600
another frame of reference.
Of course it's a cognitive frame

694
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,920
of reference.
First of all, maybe I I would

695
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:39,200
just note here that a cognitive
system is a system that can

696
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:43,040
learn it.
It has inputs, do some

697
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:49,720
calculations, no manipulations
of information and has outputs.

698
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,680
In order to do all those
manipulations, it creates

699
00:47:54,200 --> 00:48:00,120
representations of the inputs
and representations of of the of

700
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:04,040
itself as well.
If it's, you know if it's

701
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:09,560
complex enough.
So, so this is a cognitive

702
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,480
system.
But now notice that for this

703
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:18,680
system, all those
representations, they are real,

704
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,240
they are real physical
phenomenon.

705
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,440
It's a new emergence if you
like.

706
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,920
So now we can speak about those
representations as a real

707
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:35,680
emergent physical property, or
they just was manifested there

708
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:39,360
because of the measurements of
the interactions that the system

709
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:43,920
can do.
So for example, our brain, you

710
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:47,560
know, in the future we can, we
would have the ability, I guess

711
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:53,960
to, to write the equations of
how our brain is working.

712
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,920
So can describe all these
equations of how our cognitive

713
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:02,440
system, how our our brain works.
And we have variables in those

714
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,160
equations, right.
But those variables, they will

715
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:10,160
not be our neurons.
They will be the

716
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,000
representations, actually those
are the variables.

717
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:19,120
So it means that those
representations, they have now

718
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,800
all the causal power, if you
like, in the system.

719
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:28,800
And that's why now these are the
physical properties that we

720
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:32,840
measure that are manifested in
this cognitive frame of

721
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,200
reference.
OK, so this is something

722
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:39,400
already, I think pretty
interesting or pretty different.

723
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,000
That's the way that we think
nowadays about cognition.

724
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,840
And let me stress that it's
still not about consciousness.

725
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:51,960
It's just about representations
and cognitive system, just like

726
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,440
GPT, if you like, or or I don't
know, Facebook or something like

727
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:57,960
that.
All the algorithms there not

728
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,720
about consciousness yet, but
already they are a cognitive

729
00:50:01,720 --> 00:50:05,560
frame of reference and they
manifest a new kind of physical

730
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,680
property, the representations.
OK.

731
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:14,920
And it also means, I wonder if
your audience familiar with

732
00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:22,480
functionalism, because this is
exactly functionalism, because

733
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,400
when we think about it in
functionalism, what we think,

734
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:35,000
what we say is that the, the
essence of consciousness or, or

735
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,200
the brain is not the material,
the substance itself, but the

736
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,040
functions.
Now usually we need to assume

737
00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:45,600
functionalism, but now we don't
need to assume it.

738
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,840
We start from physics, we start
from the principle of relativity

739
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:53,720
and we get to this cognitive
frame of reference, right?

740
00:50:53,720 --> 00:50:58,080
And over there we have a new
physical property, the

741
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,360
representation.
And they, we don't, they don't

742
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:06,640
measure the substance, the micro
substance, like it doesn't

743
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:13,320
matter if it's the brain or if I
took your brain and mimic it in

744
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:18,520
the computer.
If it's the same with the same

745
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:23,000
cognitive abilities and the same
equations, you know, and the

746
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,520
same dynamics, then it's the
same cognitive frame of

747
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,920
reference with the same physical
property that we call the, you

748
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:32,520
know, the representations,
right?

749
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:35,520
So it's the same thing, the same
a cognitive frame of effort.

750
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:41,240
So, so now we see that
functionalism can, can, can be

751
00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:47,040
understood from the principle of
relativity, OK.

752
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:51,120
And now we can continue to the
next level.

753
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,560
So it's still not about
consciousness, but already we

754
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:58,800
see something interesting here
that representations are already

755
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:03,360
part of physics now, OK, now
representations, it's something

756
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:10,160
that it, it has, let's call it
maybe proto subjectivity because

757
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:14,320
it's something that a cognitive
system has created after

758
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:18,280
learning something, OK.
And already now it's a physical

759
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,480
property.
So we going, we are coming

760
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,880
closer to explain subjectivity
in consciousness because of

761
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:30,760
that, but it's still not enough.
In order to for it to be enough,

762
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:37,000
what I claim is that we need
another emergence to happen or

763
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:44,960
to find another frame of
reference that now is supervene

764
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,760
on the cognitive frame of
reference or supervene on the

765
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,720
representations on this physical
property we called

766
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:54,080
representations.
OK.

767
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:01,920
And then it will also give us
the I I will remind you that we

768
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,440
started all that in order to
understand what will be the

769
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,280
experiment, right?
So, so you'll see how it will

770
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:12,400
give us a prediction, OK, So it
will give us a mechanism of what

771
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:16,840
exactly is consciousness, how
can we can manifest it, but also

772
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:22,080
it will give us a prediction
what to check in an experiment.

773
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:27,720
OK, So what I claim is that now
if we have a cognitive system

774
00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:32,120
like the brain that can create
something that we call a

775
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:39,360
cognitive map, then
consciousness must be

776
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:44,680
manifested, you know.
So let me tell you what I what I

777
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:48,040
mean by that.
And when we look at the map,

778
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:52,400
then we see, let's say it's a
map of, of, of, I don't know of

779
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,080
the world of something.
So we see all the countries over

780
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:58,480
there.
So we see all all the countries

781
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:06,360
at once.
Now in cognitive science, we, we

782
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:10,480
have lots of theories that the
brain also create cognitive

783
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,040
maps.
So the brain actually creates

784
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:22,240
like an abstract space, if you
like a space of some XS.

785
00:54:22,720 --> 00:54:27,400
Each axis is a different
feature, and inside this map it

786
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,920
can put all the relevant
representations.

787
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:39,480
For example, we have a very,
let's say, good evidence that

788
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:46,400
our our brain knows where it is
in space because of cognitive

789
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:50,360
maps that actually map our 3D
World.

790
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:58,160
We call it the the grid cells
and places and they work

791
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,120
together and together they
created.

792
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:06,920
So those grid cells create our
3D space, let's say and and then

793
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:12,280
we have inside of this 3D space
our the map.

794
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:16,320
And this is how we can navigate
and this is how we can know how

795
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,760
to make shortcuts, for example,
because you have the whole map.

796
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:25,840
Now what is the, what is, what
is the relation between that and

797
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,720
relativity?
The relation is that if we have,

798
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:36,160
if the brain can create this
access system of access and map,

799
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:44,640
then now we have a new macro
system, let's call it a new

800
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,840
macro frame of reference of this
cognitive map.

801
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:53,640
Now it doesn't really matter
what are the substrate of this

802
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:56,960
map, what are the
representations that created the

803
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:02,720
access and you know the places,
let's call it inside the map,

804
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:07,120
they are not relevant anymore.
What what's relevant now are the

805
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:12,640
relationships between the access
and the points inside the map.

806
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:17,760
If we capture all those
relationships like the position

807
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:23,160
and the relationships with other
positions, then we actually

808
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:29,960
created here again a new
emergence or a new frame of

809
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:33,040
reference.
And in this frame of reference,

810
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:37,920
now again we have a new physical
property like we had, like water

811
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:41,200
was a new physical property and
representations were a new

812
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:44,840
physical property.
Now we have a new physical

813
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:50,280
property that is distinguished
from the substrate, like water

814
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:53,480
was distinguished from the
molecules and representations

815
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:58,520
were distinguished from the
brain or computer chips or

816
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:01,680
whatever.
So now all those relations in

817
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:06,520
the, in the map are
distinguished or from, you know,

818
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,120
the representations that created
them.

819
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:16,520
And what I try to claim it is
that this, this physical

820
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:24,160
property, this is consciousness.
And in order to of course, that

821
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:27,960
in order to measure it, you need
to be in the frame of reference

822
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,960
of the cognitive map.
You need to do this measurement

823
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:34,160
or to be in the interactions
that create this map, right.

824
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:38,920
Only then you can manifest this
kind of of this, this new

825
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:42,120
property, right?
Like we need to be in the macro

826
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:44,880
frame of reference in order to
measure water.

827
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:49,440
So here we need to be in the
dynamics of those cognitive

828
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:54,120
maps.
And this new, you can ask this

829
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,640
new, you can ask me why this new
physical property should be

830
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:02,080
consciousness.
And the, the, the answer is

831
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:08,200
because now we have first of
all, we have subjectivity here,

832
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:13,840
all those maps, something that
the brain created in other, you

833
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:18,600
know, to explain the word from
its own point of view, let's

834
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:24,080
say.
And also we have new information

835
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:28,280
here about, let's call it about
the meaning.

836
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:34,520
There is a meaning here.
And what what I mean is like in

837
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:38,840
a language, when you think of a
language we have when, when you

838
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,160
learn new language, in the
beginning, if you learn only one

839
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:45,680
word in, I don't know, German or
something, it will not tell you

840
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:47,680
a lot.
But when you know enough words

841
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,640
and you know the relations
between them, all of a sudden

842
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:54,080
you there is a new information
here meaning of these words.

843
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:59,000
So same thing happens here.
Now the brain measures not only

844
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:03,160
one representation, but all the
relations all at once, and

845
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:04,720
that's why we have new meaning
here.

846
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:09,080
And this is this new physical
property that I spoke of, and

847
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:14,480
that's why it's consciousness.
So this is more or less the

848
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,480
mechanism that now I try to
write on the mathematics of

849
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:22,480
that, you know, to explain what
is the mechanism from a

850
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,720
relativistic point of view in
order to manifest consciousness.

851
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:32,640
I hope it was relatively clear.
It's obviously a lot to take in,

852
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:37,360
but the first question that
comes to my mind is once you've

853
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:41,280
done that and if, if if let's
say we generate an AI that can

854
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:44,440
accomplish or fit into these
cognitive frames in that, in

855
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:48,320
that information sector at least
that allows us to determine and

856
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,320
say that it is conscious just
like us.

857
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,880
What does that say for animals
or other species?

858
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,680
I mean, how do we don't go about
then trying to assess other

859
00:59:57,680 --> 00:59:59,880
forms of consciousness that are
not human?

860
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:04,520
Yeah, that's, that's a great
question because exactly as you

861
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,840
said, there's nothing absolute
here.

862
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:10,600
It's all about the measurements.
So if the same measurements can

863
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:15,640
be created in other animals or
machines, then they will have

864
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,800
consciousness as well.
They are in this frame of

865
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:21,840
reference.
They do the same in all this

866
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:26,000
minimal, let's say that there
are no minimal conditions for

867
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:27,920
measurements that manifest
consciousness.

868
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:40,760
So every animal or machine or AI
that will create those minimal

869
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:49,520
conditions, they will have a
conscious state now, now, and,

870
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:54,160
and you're right that now,
because we have those

871
01:00:54,160 --> 01:01:00,120
conditions, we can actually
check which animals fit to those

872
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:04,480
minimal conditions or which AIS
fit to those minimal conditions.

873
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:08,880
And if they do, according to my
theory, they actually must have

874
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:12,320
consciousness.
And then near is there, is there

875
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:14,360
credence level given to these
minimal conditions?

876
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:19,200
Do you have certain criteria,
let's say that that would, let's

877
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:21,560
say measurements actually, are
they certain sort of

878
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:26,360
measurements or or or criteria
that would over override others

879
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:30,560
in trying to figure out where in
this cognitive frame someone

880
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:35,080
falls or something falls?
So the word measurements here

881
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:38,280
are problematic because I use
the word measurements from a

882
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:39,960
physical point of view.
And maybe this is what you

883
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:43,960
meant, I'm not sure, but for me,
right measurements are different

884
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:48,280
world for interactions, right?
And this is how because of those

885
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:51,960
interactions and measurements,
you in the frame of reference,

886
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:56,680
there are some relations that
manifest physical properties.

887
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:00,520
So now you ask which kind of
measurements or interactions

888
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:05,040
will manifest consciousness?
And the answer is that first of

889
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:07,960
all, you need to be a cognitive
frame of reference.

890
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:13,720
So first of all, first of all,
you need to be a system that

891
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:21,920
that for it for the system
representations are a physical

892
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:25,000
property.
OK, so it learns, it creates a

893
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:28,800
representations and this is a.
This is how it works.

894
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:36,000
And then OK, and then it needs
to create cognitive maps.

895
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:42,080
So it needs to create a
representations of access and

896
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:46,440
the and to put inside this map,
inside this abstract space

897
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:52,880
although all the different
representations.

898
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:59,000
So then, right, it can measure
all those relations all at once.

899
01:02:59,960 --> 01:03:02,400
Only then those are the minimal
conditions.

900
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:07,600
When this happens, then
according to the theory,

901
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:12,240
consciousness is manifested.
Good.

902
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:14,880
Let's say, let's say we've got
the H, the molecules as the

903
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:18,320
cognitive frames.
Then we've got water as

904
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:21,880
consciousness, the waves.
Would you consider free will to

905
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:26,040
be you have to add an another
emergent step here.

906
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:31,360
Yeah, waves of consciousness.
I love your questions.

907
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:34,080
They are so good.
Very interesting question.

908
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:38,520
No, OK, it's an interesting
question.

909
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:42,840
So first of all, let's start
with if we take molecules and

910
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:44,600
water and waves, here is an
analogy.

911
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:49,760
Molecules will be the neurons,
the activity of the neurons,

912
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:55,240
water will be the
representations, OK.

913
01:03:55,440 --> 01:04:00,280
And that's why water can be made
out of different molecules,

914
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:06,120
maybe like representations can
be made out of computer chips.

915
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:11,080
OK, now consciousness is like
the waves on the water.

916
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:16,440
So consciousness, right, is a
supervene, let's call it.

917
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:21,240
It's on, on those
representations.

918
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:26,280
It's a new frame of reference
that is independent.

919
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:32,640
You can say from the
representations independent in,

920
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,840
in, in, in the way that you can.
We can change now the

921
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:40,680
representations to be others.
But if still the map, if all the

922
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:45,040
relations in the map, if we
somehow managed to do it, the

923
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:48,480
map and the relations are the
same, then you'll have still the

924
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:52,520
same consciousness, the same map
and the same consciousness, just

925
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:56,560
exactly like water.
If we can do water out of

926
01:04:56,920 --> 01:05:00,720
different molecules somehow that
will preserve all the properties

927
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:02,200
of water, then it's the same
water.

928
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:08,120
OK, so same idea here.
So, OK, so, so waves here are

929
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:12,560
consciousness.
Now you ask, maybe we can find a

930
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:15,920
new level, a new frame of
reference or something.

931
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:21,520
But then the answer here is no
and the it's not.

932
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:25,400
It will not give us free will,
unfortunately.

933
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:30,360
Why?
Because if you remember, we have

934
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:35,680
here because it's relativistic.
We have equivalence between

935
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:39,240
third person point of view and
1st person point of view.

936
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:44,320
Let me remind you now when we
know more about you know the

937
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:48,440
cognitive maps.
So let let let me tell you again

938
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:52,680
about about this equivalence
from the outside.

939
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:57,760
When you will measure my brain,
you will measure that I have

940
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:00,760
just cognitive maps, right?
You will measure my neural

941
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:03,160
patterns and you can maybe
understand that those neural

942
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:05,280
patterns creating a cognitive
map.

943
01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:10,720
But from the inside, when I
actually inside this frame of

944
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:15,640
reference that creates that has
created this cognitive map with

945
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:19,200
all the dynamics there, all
those measurements, we will

946
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:21,560
manifest consciousness all
right.

947
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:27,520
But now notice that we have
equivalence between those two.

948
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:30,760
We cannot distinguish between
them.

949
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:36,520
So it means that if everything
that I explained with cognitive

950
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:43,160
maps and and neurons, I can
explain with consciousness.

951
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:51,080
So I can explain, I can say I, I
went to eat because I felt

952
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:55,480
hunger.
So now I explained it with those

953
01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:59,200
physical properties of
consciousness and I can explain

954
01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:04,040
it from, you know, the frame of
reference of, of third person

955
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:10,680
frame of reference with neurons
created a cognitive map of my,

956
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:17,320
of my body situation and there
was not enough food and you

957
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:22,320
know, and also and so on.
So it means that now if we try

958
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:26,680
to think about causality here,
the causal power of

959
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:31,360
consciousness versus the causal
power of neurons, they are

960
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:34,880
equivalent.
It's the same, just from

961
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:39,000
different points of view, right
Head and tail, they are the same

962
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:42,160
exactly.
So exactly the the same causal

963
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:44,880
power.
And because we know that we have

964
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:50,880
determinism with physics about
neurons and and and and

965
01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:53,640
cognitive maps, then we
understand that we have the same

966
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:59,080
kind of causality and the same
determinism also with

967
01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:04,560
consciousness.
So so my theory does not help us

968
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:11,600
unfortunately with the question
of of free will and free choice.

969
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:15,640
It ultimately determinist.
Determinist.

970
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:18,520
Yes, yes, yeah, because it's
part of physics, so it makes

971
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:20,200
sense in the end of the day.
It does.

972
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:25,080
Ideally, that would have been.
My guess is that it would hit

973
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:27,240
yeah.
But.

974
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:31,680
But actually I have to say that
I, at least it saves something

975
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:33,760
else.
It, it, it gives us autonomy,

976
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:38,359
which is also something, you
know, I, I, I have a friend and

977
01:08:38,359 --> 01:08:44,080
she told me once we spoke about
it and she told me if we don't

978
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:48,600
have free will, then we are just
very complicated machines.

979
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:51,680
We are like a coffee machine, a
complicated coffee machine.

980
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:58,479
And I was very annoyed by that.
But then I told her, well, not

981
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:01,640
exactly.
We do have autonomy, like a very

982
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:05,000
complex coffee machine has no
autonomy.

983
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:08,920
We are the one that built it and
we are the one that need to

984
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:14,120
press on a button to create, I
don't know, a very complicated

985
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:20,399
coffee, right?
But in our case, it's different.

986
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:23,520
First of all, we are part of
life, right?

987
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:30,160
And for in life we are a system
that evolved to for itself,

988
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:32,399
right?
We are not evolved for someone

989
01:09:32,399 --> 01:09:34,720
else.
So this is first thing that we

990
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:39,240
have some kind of autonomy.
But now with my theory, we have

991
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:43,800
much more autonomy physically.
We have autonomy because now we

992
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:49,560
are an actual cognitive frame of
reference and 1st person frame

993
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:51,200
of reference.
We have consciousness.

994
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:59,200
So we have a lot of autonomy in
the sense that we project or we,

995
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:05,280
let's say that we create
physical properties, which we

996
01:10:05,280 --> 01:10:07,840
call qualia, right?
Those are now physical

997
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:14,000
properties and we have
manifested them in our own frame

998
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:19,360
of reference.
So, so it gives us a huge, for

999
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:23,280
me, I, I guess it feels like a
huge autonomy.

1000
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:29,440
We are our own frame of
reference that is in some sense

1001
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:36,520
separate, you know, from from
our substrate, just like what we

1002
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:39,640
discussed before, separate.
It's almost like to summarize,

1003
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:43,600
it's kind of like the the
consciousness is observer

1004
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:46,560
dependent and and you can see it
from two different ways.

1005
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:50,480
We can see it other as from the
neural correlations of what's

1006
01:10:50,480 --> 01:10:53,800
going on and from the first
person subject to phenomenal

1007
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:56,800
experience and both the
equivalent and therefore

1008
01:10:57,800 --> 01:11:00,640
relative.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1009
01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:04,160
But it's more than that, that
now we can create the same

1010
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:07,320
consciousness in different with
different subtracts if we like.

1011
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:10,240
Yes, so so there is.
An artificial intelligence?

1012
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:14,720
If yes, it's able to produce
similar outcomes, therefore it's

1013
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:18,440
also equivalent in that regard.
And our perspective is not

1014
01:11:18,440 --> 01:11:24,640
necessarily more valuable when
trying to assess the AI, let's

1015
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:30,360
say.
Yeah, it depends if the AI has

1016
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:32,720
met the minimal conditions or
not.

1017
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:35,240
But if it's met at the minimal
conditions, then it has.

1018
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:38,240
You're talking at a more
advanced AI at this point, not

1019
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:38,880
what?
Exactly.

1020
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:42,440
Currently so not like.
Exactly, exactly.

1021
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:45,080
But also if we take in the
future, if we can take your

1022
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:49,800
cognitive maps, for example, and
copy them, do like a copy paste

1023
01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:56,360
in some kind of AI, then there
is again, it's the same first

1024
01:11:56,360 --> 01:11:58,640
person frame of reference just
like you.

1025
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:01,600
It will create the same
measurements just like you, if

1026
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:04,520
we do it properly, right?
The proper copy paste, let's

1027
01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:08,160
call it, and the proper
dynamically copy paste.

1028
01:12:08,160 --> 01:12:14,360
So it's dynamically doing the
same dynamics like what happens

1029
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:17,960
when you create your own
cognitive maps, right?

1030
01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:24,320
Then it will create the same
frame of reference with the same

1031
01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:29,960
consciousness just like you so.
You see, you ever have do you

1032
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:34,560
think about teleological
outcomes or what what's going to

1033
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:37,080
happen in the future?
I mean, because this could then

1034
01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:41,840
be the plan for the universe,
but we're obviously able to

1035
01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:47,400
transmit this sort of conscious
entity into substrates that will

1036
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:51,960
last longer and survive this
harsh universe that'll easily

1037
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:56,280
kill a biological system.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1038
01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:59,040
I mean, that can be the
solution, right, For us if we

1039
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:02,960
like to, to live forever, first
of all.

1040
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:09,240
And yeah, who knows, maybe in
the future we, we can find a

1041
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:15,000
more finer substrate than
biological one.

1042
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:20,120
Maybe even we can use elements
from quantum mechanics, you

1043
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:24,840
know, like something like
quantum fields or whatever.

1044
01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:27,360
You know, maybe in the far
future we can do something with

1045
01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:32,600
that and then, you know, the,
the universe is the limit or

1046
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:39,360
even beyond, you know, And
another question is sometimes

1047
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:43,160
people ask me if I do, I think
if, if the universe as a whole

1048
01:13:43,440 --> 01:13:47,280
is consciousness, for example.
And this is also a very

1049
01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:50,440
interesting question.
I I think that the answer is no,

1050
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:56,800
but but we, we cannot know yet
because in order to to to answer

1051
01:13:56,800 --> 01:14:01,000
this question, we need to, to
know if the universe is a

1052
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:04,920
cognitive system first of all.
It's, it's almost like I talked

1053
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:09,320
about earlier when we look at
each scale of of each molecule,

1054
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:12,400
you we don't have that macro
level scale that's needed.

1055
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:16,200
So it's it's actually impossible
to exclude that as an option

1056
01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:18,040
right now.
Exactly.

1057
01:14:18,040 --> 01:14:20,040
And you know what?
You remind me a very nice

1058
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:24,520
analogy for that There is an
analogy from the 80s.

1059
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:32,440
I think it's net block he he so
he created this weird analogy

1060
01:14:32,520 --> 01:14:36,360
analogy again with Chinese.
I don't know they have lots of

1061
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:41,080
analogies with the Chinese in in
in the philosophy of the of mind

1062
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:46,960
for some reason.
So this is the Chinese brain

1063
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:50,160
analogy or something like that.
So in this analogy, let's say

1064
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:57,360
that we take all the population
of China and each person now

1065
01:14:58,080 --> 01:15:04,200
must behave like a neuron.
So I don't know, the government

1066
01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:12,280
gives them some, some, some
equipment in order for them to

1067
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:18,920
interact with other people just
like what neuron does.

1068
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:21,320
OK, let's say that it's possible
to do that.

1069
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:25,960
So now and let's say that we
have enough Chinese or whatever

1070
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:34,080
to have enough neurons and and
now we have enough neurons just

1071
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:37,200
like in human, in the human
brain.

1072
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:43,360
So now let's say that we take
your brain and now the Chinese

1073
01:15:43,360 --> 01:15:48,760
people, they are the one that
mimic it and they and they mimic

1074
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:53,000
it in in a good way.
So it's a cognitive system

1075
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:59,720
actually and it and it creates
everything that your brain is

1076
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:04,040
creating.
Now the question is do does this

1077
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:08,520
brain has does it have
consciousness Now in the

1078
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:12,200
beginning, I have to say that it
sounds weird to say yes, it has

1079
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:15,560
consciousness, right?
Because if you ask one Chinese,

1080
01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:22,400
do you feel the consciousness of
Tevin, he will tell you, no,

1081
01:16:22,640 --> 01:16:25,040
I'm, I'm Changhu, what do you
want from me?

1082
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:30,920
Right.
But then when you think about it

1083
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:36,480
from the perspective of, you
know, the relativistic

1084
01:16:36,480 --> 01:16:39,200
perspective of my theory, then
it makes sense.

1085
01:16:39,440 --> 01:16:47,440
Because when you ask one Chinese
about consciousness, he, he or

1086
01:16:47,440 --> 01:16:53,800
she, they are in their own
cognitive frame of reference,

1087
01:16:53,960 --> 01:16:56,000
right?
So this is the measurement that

1088
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:57,800
they can do.
And they manifest their own

1089
01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:00,600
consciousness.
In order to see that there is a

1090
01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:04,680
bigger consciousness here, let's
call it, we need to, to

1091
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:09,400
transform into the frame of
reference of the whole Chinese

1092
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:11,840
brain.
And then in this brain, of

1093
01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:15,200
course, there will be in the
manifestation of consciousness.

1094
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:18,960
So then now it's more intuitive
even to think about it.

1095
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:23,360
And now you can think that it's
very, it's maybe it's the same

1096
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:27,920
with the whole universe.
I mean, just exactly as one

1097
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:33,360
Chinese didn't know about the
whole Chinese brain, we don't

1098
01:17:33,360 --> 01:17:35,720
know about the whole universe
because we are just not in the

1099
01:17:35,720 --> 01:17:39,080
right frame of reference and.
I think you're touching on

1100
01:17:39,080 --> 01:17:42,560
something that's quite a few
people I've had on the show have

1101
01:17:42,560 --> 01:17:44,760
this.
Some people, for example, will

1102
01:17:44,760 --> 01:17:49,240
say countries are conscious in,
in, in a way.

1103
01:17:49,240 --> 01:17:52,800
So America has this type of
thinking and mindset and, and

1104
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:55,160
this sort of process that's
happening with similar cognitive

1105
01:17:55,160 --> 01:17:58,720
frames in that regard.
Whereas China or India have a

1106
01:17:58,720 --> 01:18:00,600
different sort of cognitive
process.

1107
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:04,440
But but in a sense they are
conscious entities just thinking

1108
01:18:04,440 --> 01:18:05,440
differently.
That's it.

1109
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:09,240
So it's not impossible to
exclude these as options because

1110
01:18:09,240 --> 01:18:10,840
I've had quite a few so bring
these up.

1111
01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:19,800
Yes, but you're right.
You're right that of course when

1112
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:27,000
we look culturally, we see, you
know, similarities between

1113
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:31,000
different cultures.
I can tell you personally, I I'm

1114
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:35,000
here from I'm from Israel and
the culture here is very

1115
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:40,280
Mediterranean.
So when I go to Spain or Italy

1116
01:18:40,280 --> 01:18:43,360
or Egypt, you know, it's very
similar.

1117
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:49,920
But then for the last nine years
I lived in Berkling, California.

1118
01:18:50,600 --> 01:18:56,440
So I actually feel it very much
the differences, the cultural

1119
01:18:56,440 --> 01:19:00,440
differences, you know, between
the US and the Mediterranean,

1120
01:19:00,440 --> 01:19:05,160
let's say.
But, and it's very, by the way,

1121
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:08,480
very interesting topic as well
to see what are those

1122
01:19:08,480 --> 01:19:11,680
differences and why and all this
but.

1123
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:14,160
I completely understand.
I'm from South Africa, so I go

1124
01:19:14,520 --> 01:19:16,120
when I travel to Europe and
other places.

1125
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:19,560
I know the, I know the feeling.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1126
01:19:19,560 --> 01:19:22,880
Because it's it's, I was
surprised how different it will

1127
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:24,800
be.
By the way, I thought that

1128
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:28,000
because all of us are part of,
you know, Western world liberal

1129
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:32,920
democracy, and we see the same
movies and hear the same music

1130
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:38,560
and TV, you know, the, the
differences won't be so big.

1131
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:43,880
And I was surprised to see how
huge the differences are, by the

1132
01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:44,480
way.
Yeah.

1133
01:19:45,440 --> 01:19:48,800
But taking all that into
account, it it, it still doesn't

1134
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:53,080
mean that as a whole, the
country of the US, for example,

1135
01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:58,520
or the culture has its own
conscious mind.

1136
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:03,360
In order to have a conscious
mind, we need to show that it,

1137
01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:11,240
it, it, that it, that it.
Fits for the minimal conditions

1138
01:20:11,240 --> 01:20:15,040
for consciousness and we don't
know what those minimal

1139
01:20:15,040 --> 01:20:16,840
conditions now according to the
theory.

1140
01:20:17,280 --> 01:20:19,840
So one condition, it should be a
cognitive system.

1141
01:20:20,400 --> 01:20:24,120
Now is it a cognitive system?
Can we speak of a country as the

1142
01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:28,680
system that gets inputs, create
representations and do outputs

1143
01:20:28,680 --> 01:20:31,280
out of those representations?
I'm not sure.

1144
01:20:31,280 --> 01:20:35,000
I don't think so.
I think as individuals we do it,

1145
01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:42,280
but as as as a culture, let's
say I don't see again, we need

1146
01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:45,480
to think about it maybe more,
but I don't see how we, how the

1147
01:20:45,480 --> 01:20:51,200
culture create and create
representations that are

1148
01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:54,760
different than the
representations that we already

1149
01:20:54,760 --> 01:20:58,000
created in our minds.
You see, this is the thing here

1150
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:01,200
that we need to create now a
different frame of reference.

1151
01:21:01,200 --> 01:21:06,720
It cannot be our what you know,
the, the representations that

1152
01:21:06,760 --> 01:21:11,320
are in our mind in order to
scale up with the relativistic

1153
01:21:11,320 --> 01:21:14,320
approach, because you need the
separation, right?

1154
01:21:14,320 --> 01:21:18,160
You need to distinguish between
the micro and the macro frame of

1155
01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:21,160
reference.
It's not the same, OK, in that

1156
01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:22,880
sense.
And here I think it's the

1157
01:21:22,880 --> 01:21:24,920
problem.
I don't think that cultures or

1158
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:28,600
countries will create it.
And again, I don't think that

1159
01:21:28,600 --> 01:21:32,280
the planet can create it or the
solar system or the universe as

1160
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:34,120
a whole.
But who knows, you know, maybe,

1161
01:21:34,720 --> 01:21:38,280
maybe we'll find something that
we don't understand for for now.

1162
01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:41,960
I trust me, I'm pretty sure we
can find a philosopher online or

1163
01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:46,800
will give us, we can give us
some understanding of of why

1164
01:21:46,800 --> 01:21:49,880
there is that.
That's the for sure starting

1165
01:21:49,880 --> 01:21:52,880
this podcast is you can you
cannot find almost any theory

1166
01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:55,360
that that can explain almost
anything when it comes to

1167
01:21:55,360 --> 01:21:57,560
conscious.
What has been the most difficult

1168
01:21:57,720 --> 01:22:01,080
aspect of this relational
theory, this relativistic theory

1169
01:22:01,080 --> 01:22:04,080
of consciousness that you've had
to deal with in terms of

1170
01:22:04,080 --> 01:22:06,640
misunderstandings?
Of course, English, English is

1171
01:22:06,640 --> 01:22:08,120
not your first language.
I'm assuming yes.

1172
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:10,840
That's true, yeah.
It's Hebrew.

1173
01:22:10,840 --> 01:22:14,280
My my view.
Express this view to the larger

1174
01:22:14,480 --> 01:22:16,800
philosophical community.
What's been the most difficult

1175
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:23,000
part?
The most difficult part, yeah,

1176
01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:28,400
to convey the physicalist
approach, how to look from a

1177
01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:32,520
physical point of view and not
from a psychological point of

1178
01:22:32,520 --> 01:22:36,400
view or neuroscience,
neuroscience point of view.

1179
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:42,240
But, and oh, you know what?
Even more than that, to convey

1180
01:22:42,240 --> 01:22:46,880
people to look from relativistic
approach and not absolute

1181
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:53,000
approach, because our culture is
based on an absolute approach.

1182
01:22:53,480 --> 01:22:56,520
Think about the religions.
It's very absolute, right?

1183
01:22:56,520 --> 01:23:02,480
You have God, some sort of God.
This isn't the most absolute

1184
01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:06,760
entity ever, right?
And then it's very dominant in

1185
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:13,480
most cultures.
And also we start as kids from

1186
01:23:13,480 --> 01:23:16,760
this absolute notion that we
know everything.

1187
01:23:16,760 --> 01:23:18,560
Our parents knows everything,
right?

1188
01:23:18,560 --> 01:23:19,920
We are the centre of the
universe.

1189
01:23:20,800 --> 01:23:30,400
So it takes time to switch this
notion and to think not from an

1190
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:34,760
absolute way of thinking.
You see, it's so ingrained in

1191
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:39,600
our way of thinking, this
absolute, that absolute

1192
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:45,760
approach, that eliminativism
sounds plausible for us, because

1193
01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:50,720
it's plausible for us that the
element, elementary particles,

1194
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:54,640
let's say, should be the
absolute frame of reference you

1195
01:23:54,640 --> 01:23:57,840
see.
So that's why it takes some time

1196
01:23:57,840 --> 01:24:01,280
to realize, oh wait, we can
think about it in a completely

1197
01:24:01,280 --> 01:24:04,040
different way where it's all
relative.

1198
01:24:04,040 --> 01:24:09,280
We don't have one God I from
above, you know, an absolute

1199
01:24:09,280 --> 01:24:14,120
thing.
We have different frames and all

1200
01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:17,560
of them are correct.
You know, so it takes time to to

1201
01:24:17,800 --> 01:24:20,480
to get used.
And yet it's so anything, it's

1202
01:24:20,480 --> 01:24:23,360
so obvious in a sense that
everything is relative to

1203
01:24:23,360 --> 01:24:25,640
something else.
So it's, it's like a doubling.

1204
01:24:25,640 --> 01:24:28,120
Yeah.
You think it's a case where it's

1205
01:24:28,160 --> 01:24:32,520
it's simultaneously obvious and
not occurring at the same time.

1206
01:24:33,800 --> 01:24:36,600
Exactly, exactly.
You know that we forgot

1207
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:39,920
something.
You asked me what is the

1208
01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:43,760
experiment that I would like to
do, and then I started all this

1209
01:24:44,040 --> 01:24:49,280
conversation, but we forgot.
I forgot to tell you in the end

1210
01:24:49,280 --> 01:24:52,040
of the day, what is this?
What is the experiment?

1211
01:24:53,400 --> 01:24:59,560
So now after we know those
conditions, we can speak of a

1212
01:24:59,560 --> 01:25:03,720
prediction here before, you
know, we try to take it into the

1213
01:25:04,040 --> 01:25:09,120
very interesting questions of
human of sorry animals or AI.

1214
01:25:09,520 --> 01:25:13,320
First of all, we have the
prediction that in humans that

1215
01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:18,800
we know that has have
consciousness while we awake or

1216
01:25:18,800 --> 01:25:22,760
while we have consciousness,
then we must have at least one

1217
01:25:22,760 --> 01:25:28,640
cognitive map operating, right?
Because those are what manifest

1218
01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:34,280
consciousness and while we are
unconscious then we must see no

1219
01:25:34,600 --> 01:25:37,600
activation of cognitive maps at
all.

1220
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:42,160
So we have a prediction now that
you can check and we can check

1221
01:25:42,160 --> 01:25:45,280
it in couple of different
experiments.

1222
01:25:45,280 --> 01:25:48,920
Actually we can do it in the
level of the state of

1223
01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:51,760
consciousness.
So for example, someone awake

1224
01:25:51,920 --> 01:25:56,720
versus someone with deep sleep
and versus someone with in dream

1225
01:25:56,720 --> 01:25:59,600
when dreams, because when we
dream we do have consciousness,

1226
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:02,000
right.
So again, we should see over

1227
01:26:02,000 --> 01:26:05,520
there cognitive maps, but not
when we have deep sleep with no

1228
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:07,960
consciousness.
And of course anesthesia is

1229
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:12,200
well, but then we can do a finer
experiments than that.

1230
01:26:12,640 --> 01:26:19,760
You know, all those experiments
that use, you see in one eye,

1231
01:26:19,760 --> 01:26:24,000
you know one thing with the
other eye a different stimulus,

1232
01:26:24,760 --> 01:26:29,840
but you have consciousness only
for the stimulus from one eye

1233
01:26:29,840 --> 01:26:37,520
but not from the other.
So if we can do it, you know, in

1234
01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:43,360
a fine manner, let's say we can
distinguish and and, and, and we

1235
01:26:43,360 --> 01:26:49,320
will try to show how when you
conscious for, let's say a

1236
01:26:49,320 --> 01:26:53,680
house, but not for a face, then
the cognitive map that is

1237
01:26:53,680 --> 01:26:57,360
responsible for the house will
be activated, but not the

1238
01:26:57,360 --> 01:27:01,160
cognitive map of the house and
vice versa, right.

1239
01:27:01,160 --> 01:27:04,280
So all those kind of
experiments, we, this is what we

1240
01:27:04,280 --> 01:27:08,560
want to do.
Now in the consciousness and

1241
01:27:08,560 --> 01:27:10,080
cognition that I've been in
Cambridge.

1242
01:27:11,680 --> 01:27:14,120
And well, we've covered quite a
lot.

1243
01:27:14,160 --> 01:27:18,920
Is there any part of it that you
think I haven't touched on that

1244
01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:21,640
you think is important for
people to know regarding your

1245
01:27:21,640 --> 01:27:25,000
theory?
So one question that maybe

1246
01:27:25,000 --> 01:27:30,000
people can ask themselves is
more again, why it's not

1247
01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:33,960
reductive materialism.
I, I think this is something a

1248
01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:43,120
bit subtle and I have so through
time I tried to develop this

1249
01:27:43,120 --> 01:27:49,400
example to, to explain why it's
not reductive materialism with

1250
01:27:49,400 --> 01:27:52,760
the example of Einstein of what
we started with the equivalence

1251
01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:57,600
principle between gravity,
gravitation and acceleration.

1252
01:27:58,240 --> 01:28:02,000
So if we take this scenario and
think about it, I think it, it

1253
01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:06,480
can give us a very good idea of
what, why it's not reductive

1254
01:28:06,480 --> 01:28:09,600
materialism.
So over there inside the

1255
01:28:09,920 --> 01:28:15,880
accelerating spaceship, the
astronaut measures gravitational

1256
01:28:15,880 --> 01:28:21,360
force and the astronaut from the
outside measures acceleration,

1257
01:28:21,880 --> 01:28:24,160
right?
Very similar.

1258
01:28:24,160 --> 01:28:29,680
Like from the outside you will
measure only my neural patterns,

1259
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:32,440
but from the inside I will
measure consciousness.

1260
01:28:32,800 --> 01:28:38,000
Now, reductive materialism is a
bit like to say that I want to

1261
01:28:38,320 --> 01:28:44,200
understand from the astronaut
outside that measure

1262
01:28:44,600 --> 01:28:51,320
acceleration, how to reach
gravitational force, you know,

1263
01:28:51,960 --> 01:28:55,360
but it's not the same.
It's, it's, you don't need to

1264
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:57,800
reach from acceleration to
gravitational force.

1265
01:28:58,120 --> 01:29:02,080
It's just two different frames
of reference, right?

1266
01:29:02,200 --> 01:29:04,200
You just need to go to the
different frames of reference

1267
01:29:04,200 --> 01:29:06,720
and over there to understand
what is going on, what are the

1268
01:29:06,720 --> 01:29:12,160
measurements that are going on
inside the spaceship and, and,

1269
01:29:12,160 --> 01:29:18,520
and, and then you understand why
you see then manifests gravity,

1270
01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:22,280
right?
You don't need to go from from

1271
01:29:22,280 --> 01:29:25,560
acceleration, right?
So same thing is happening here.

1272
01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:31,440
You don't need to go from the
outside, from brain neural

1273
01:29:31,440 --> 01:29:33,800
patterns to explain
consciousness.

1274
01:29:33,800 --> 01:29:38,120
It will not work.
What you need to do is to check

1275
01:29:38,120 --> 01:29:41,800
the measurements from the
inside, inside the brain and why

1276
01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:44,400
they manifest consciousness.
And this is what we try to do

1277
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:47,040
with emergence and all that
It's.

1278
01:29:47,480 --> 01:29:50,480
Almost like it's you don't have
to break it down into the sum of

1279
01:29:50,480 --> 01:29:52,960
its pots in order to fully
understand exactly what's going

1280
01:29:52,960 --> 01:29:54,960
on.
Which is why and also because

1281
01:29:55,040 --> 01:29:56,160
productive.
Yeah.

1282
01:29:58,080 --> 01:30:02,040
Yeah, but also it's because you
don't need to explain head by

1283
01:30:02,040 --> 01:30:06,520
the Pali by sorry by the tail.
You know you needed to describe

1284
01:30:06,520 --> 01:30:09,160
each of them separately?
Or what are the measurements

1285
01:30:09,160 --> 01:30:13,640
separately in each of the frames
of reference?

1286
01:30:13,640 --> 01:30:16,600
They're not merely reducing the
thing to the sum of its parts.

1287
01:30:17,320 --> 01:30:19,440
Exactly.
And you don't and you don't

1288
01:30:19,440 --> 01:30:22,240
reduce it from 1 frame to the
other.

1289
01:30:22,240 --> 01:30:25,440
This is wrong, right?
This is not the relativistic

1290
01:30:25,440 --> 01:30:27,280
approach.
You cannot reduce one to the

1291
01:30:27,280 --> 01:30:32,360
other.
They are both they they have the

1292
01:30:32,360 --> 01:30:36,760
same the equivalent, right?
So, so, so we cannot reduce one

1293
01:30:36,760 --> 01:30:38,400
to the other, right?
Yeah.

1294
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:42,120
So this is the idea.
It's a it's a beautiful when you

1295
01:30:42,120 --> 01:30:44,880
finally grasp the concept, which
I still think there's a lot I

1296
01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:48,080
can learn about it and I haven't
yet maybe appreciate it.

1297
01:30:48,080 --> 01:30:50,320
I'm not yet appreciating it as
much as I probably should.

1298
01:30:51,560 --> 01:30:54,240
But the more I've read about it
and the more I've gotten into

1299
01:30:54,240 --> 01:30:56,560
it, the more I'm getting it.
And, and I think that even

1300
01:30:56,560 --> 01:30:58,760
having this conversation, it's,
it's, it's a lot more eye

1301
01:30:58,880 --> 01:31:02,440
opening for me.
And it's, and it's quite a nice

1302
01:31:02,680 --> 01:31:05,640
way to approach this in a very
simplistic manner as well.

1303
01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:09,120
So not only is it not, but it's
also simple once you get the,

1304
01:31:09,840 --> 01:31:12,560
once you get the gist of it,
any, anything else near near

1305
01:31:12,560 --> 01:31:16,120
that you think is important for
us to know before we close or

1306
01:31:16,120 --> 01:31:19,240
any final words about the theory
or where we're going from here?

1307
01:31:21,960 --> 01:31:24,640
That's it.
So now in the couple of years,

1308
01:31:24,720 --> 01:31:29,560
of course, I will publish the
new paper about you know what

1309
01:31:29,840 --> 01:31:35,160
the emergence from the
relativistic approach and a lot

1310
01:31:35,160 --> 01:31:40,880
of a lot of other interesting
phenomena like what is going on

1311
01:31:41,000 --> 01:31:43,920
in deep meditation.
You know, all those people that

1312
01:31:43,920 --> 01:31:48,520
say that they have only like
they are only observer, they

1313
01:31:48,520 --> 01:31:51,760
have no content, you know how to
explain that.

1314
01:31:52,200 --> 01:31:56,200
So all those interesting
phenomena, I will publish papers

1315
01:31:56,200 --> 01:32:02,280
about that and of course try to,
you know, to test the the

1316
01:32:02,280 --> 01:32:05,160
theory.
Hopefully it will prove the

1317
01:32:05,160 --> 01:32:08,920
theory even.
And yes, everybody needs to, if

1318
01:32:08,920 --> 01:32:12,160
they can support, support the
work and try and assist.

1319
01:32:12,160 --> 01:32:13,880
I'll put the link to it down
below as well.

1320
01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:17,920
So if, if anyone's excited about
your work and, and willing to

1321
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:20,760
contribute, please do.
I, I think it's very

1322
01:32:20,760 --> 01:32:22,640
fascinating.
I never enjoyed it quite a bit.

1323
01:32:22,640 --> 01:32:24,480
And it's, it's, this has been
such a pleasure here.

1324
01:32:24,480 --> 01:32:28,480
Thanks so much for joining me.
Thank you very much, Tavan.

1325
01:32:28,480 --> 01:32:31,320
It was it was a wonderful
conversation.

1326
01:32:31,320 --> 01:32:32,000
Thank you.
Yeah.

1327
01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:34,840
And, and, and look, as things go
on, I, I look forward to many

1328
01:32:34,840 --> 01:32:36,800
more because it seems like
there's a lot that's still going

1329
01:32:36,800 --> 01:32:40,040
to be done in this, in this
niche field for you.

1330
01:32:40,160 --> 01:32:43,520
And it's very interdisciplinary.
So which means there's going to

1331
01:32:43,520 --> 01:32:45,160
be a lot for us to talk about in
the future.

1332
01:32:46,360 --> 01:32:49,080
For sure, for sure.
And for me it's even only the

1333
01:32:49,080 --> 01:32:55,160
first application of of
relativity for consciousness.

1334
01:32:55,360 --> 01:32:58,680
Later on I will try to take it
for different relays.

1335
01:32:58,680 --> 01:33:02,120
So a lot of work.
You can apply this to everything

1336
01:33:02,120 --> 01:33:05,760
to be honest.
This is, yeah, this is what I

1337
01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:09,280
will try to do until, until the
end, you know?

1338
01:33:09,480 --> 01:33:15,760
Proud I noticed this just as a
close off the let me just find

1339
01:33:15,760 --> 01:33:18,480
this I know on your in your
e-mail.

1340
01:33:18,480 --> 01:33:22,560
So when you you close your sign
off is a a quote by Einstein

1341
01:33:24,040 --> 01:33:26,600
which I really what was it
again?

1342
01:33:28,320 --> 01:33:29,960
Wow.
Well.

1343
01:33:30,560 --> 01:33:32,160
You try to find this I.
Will open it.

1344
01:33:32,160 --> 01:33:35,640
Let's open the.
It's a nice sign of Here We Go 1

1345
01:33:35,640 --> 01:33:39,800
cannot help but be in awe when
one contemplates the mysteries

1346
01:33:39,800 --> 01:33:43,680
of eternity, of life, of the
marvellous structure of reality.

1347
01:33:44,160 --> 01:33:47,920
And I think your work following
Einstein's, he would be very

1348
01:33:47,920 --> 01:33:51,080
proud.
Well, thank you very much.

1349
01:33:53,040 --> 01:33:53,800
Wow.
You you.

1350
01:33:53,920 --> 01:33:56,040
You almost made me cry, Lilo.
It's like.

1351
01:33:58,120 --> 01:33:59,280
Thank you so much.
Thank you.

1352
01:34:00,120 --> 01:34:03,600
At the end of the day,
consciousness is the question

1353
01:34:03,600 --> 01:34:05,680
is, is consciousness observer
dependent?

1354
01:34:06,600 --> 01:34:09,520
And that leads to the
relativistic theory of

1355
01:34:09,520 --> 01:34:12,160
consciousness.
If anyone has any further

1356
01:34:12,160 --> 01:34:14,160
information and wants to know
more, I'll put a link to your

1357
01:34:14,160 --> 01:34:16,520
paper as well.
Any final thoughts?

1358
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:18,560
Anything else you want to say
that you think I might have

1359
01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:20,720
missed?
That's it.

1360
01:34:20,720 --> 01:34:24,880
I hope maybe I will try to do
some retreats in, in the future

1361
01:34:25,120 --> 01:34:27,440
about the mystery of
consciousness for the popular

1362
01:34:27,440 --> 01:34:29,640
audience.
I started now here in Israel in

1363
01:34:29,640 --> 01:34:32,040
Hebrew.
And if it will go well, I will

1364
01:34:32,040 --> 01:34:36,920
try to do it as well, you know,
back in Berkeley or Cambridge or

1365
01:34:36,920 --> 01:34:38,640
something like that.
So stay tuned.

1366
01:34:39,080 --> 01:34:43,040
My Facebook, I, I don't know, I,
I'm still in Facebook.

1367
01:34:43,920 --> 01:34:46,800
So just to have a look.
Next to your to your website and

1368
01:34:46,800 --> 01:34:49,400
socials as well.
Yeah, great.

1369
01:34:49,560 --> 01:34:50,680
And thank you very much.