Neuroscience Beyond Neurons in the Diverse Intelligence Era | Michael Levin & Robert Chis-Ciure

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Mike Roberts, thank you both so
much for joining me.

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This is exciting.
I've been waiting a long time

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for this conversation.
Welcome back.

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Well, bye.
Welcome back.

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Good to see you.
Mike, you've been on this

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channel so many times.
I think you've actually been on

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this channel more than anyone.
So I think it would be a great

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way to start this by asking
Robert.

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Robert, your work, for those who
are not familiar, perhaps could

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you expand what your work covers
and how your work has brought

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you to Mike?
And then we'll go into this

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wonderful paper you guys wrote
together all.

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Right, sure.
So I'm a consciousness

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researcher primarily, even
though I was trained as a

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philosopher, I mostly act as a
neuroscientist now.

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So I'm sort of a neuro
philosopher if you want a label,

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and my work is at Sussex
University in annual search Lab

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where we focus mostly on
consciousness, which is why I

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might say the the big absentee
of this paper.

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But that was deliberate and we
will get into that towards

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towards the end of our
discussion.

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My usual work involves trying to
think in conceptual but also

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mathematical and empirical terms
about various structures of

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experience or features of
experience, let's call them

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phenomenological invariance.
And this is my my primary line

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of investigation.
However, in the past year and in

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the past two years actually upon
reading Mike's work and

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especially the multi competency
architecture that we explore in

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this paper, I started thinking
more and more about the

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connection between consciousness
and intelligence.

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And we will probably get to that
in more detail later.

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But the main problem with
consciousness is the fact that

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it is less operationalizable
than intelligence and

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intelligence.
Not only is it more

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operationalizable in in the
sense that you can create an

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easily measurable or somewhat
easily measurable protocol for

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determining it as an observer,
because that's the big catch.

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We are always in the position of
being observers.

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And most of the intelligence we
detect is also a reflection of

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our intelligence as well.
So in a sense, detecting

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intelligence is an IQ test for
the detector, as Mike likes to

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say in his papers.
And as I got deeper into my

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work, it happened that my got in
touch proactively to discuss

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some some consciousness related
things and we started this

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collaboration.
And the seed of this idea came

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from primarily this line of
thinking.

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How can we leverage intelligence
as a more scientifically

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tractable concept to gain an
insight into consciousness,

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which is perhaps less tractable,
at least with our current

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investigation?
And everything ballooned and we

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we got to this, to this paper.
And Mike, your thoughts on

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Robert's journey, his work,
what's fascinated you most about

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it and how and why was it the
perfect fit to bring you guys

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together?
Yeah, Well, actually, Luke

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Roloff's gave me Robert's name,
and he said that he showed me

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some stuff and he said that you
might want to talk to this guy.

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And I was like, I absolutely
want to talk to this guy.

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And so.
Yeah.

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And so.
And so I reached out and I, you

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know, I sent you some stuff
because I thought, yeah, I mean,

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I thought this is exactly kind
of the sweet spot for what we

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want to be working on.
You know, intelligence obviously

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in our lab is, is something that
we try to address

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experimentally.
But in the end, you, I, I don't

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think you can complete this,
this journey without really

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taking on consciousness.
And in the end, yet, as you

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said, it's it's, it's, it has
all kinds of difficulties.

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And so the connection between
those two seems like is

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something that eventually we're
going to have to tackle.

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So yeah, here we are.
Well, for those who who are

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watching this or listening to
this, the the entire focus is

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going to be your paper cognition
all the way down. 2.0

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neuroscience beyond neurons in
the diverse intelligence era.

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What a wonderful paper.
Firstly, guys, what and this

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question is for both of you,
what motivated you to move

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beyond conceptual debates in the
cognition wars so and offer a

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formal quantitative framework
for intelligence across scales

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from molecules to organisms.
What really drove this?

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Like wanna wanna ground with the
entirety of your MCA and then

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maybe I can pivot at first,
sure.

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Sure.
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's it's,

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it's important to to establish
tractable frameworks that are

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going to make contact with,
experiment with the real world.

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Not only, not only because it,
it sort of keeps you honest in a

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philosophical sense.
It lets you, it gives you an

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idea of whether you're on the
right track or not.

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And I don't just mean sort of
predictions and things like

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that.
I mean generative fertility of,

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of the ideas, you know, what
does it help you come up with?

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What, what are the better
questions that helps you get

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what are the new things you
wouldn't have done otherwise,

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right.
But also the other, the other

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aspect of this, and I think
Chris Fields said this, that

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arguments are only resolved by
technologies.

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And so in in some of these
philosophical questions, like

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people have been debating this
stuff for a really long time,

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you know, thousands of years in
some cases.

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And many of these things are in
fact treated, I think mistakenly

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so, as matters of philosophical
taste or linguistic definitions.

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And, you know, when people say,
well, OK, you, you know, you,

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you can't talk about cells
having intelligence, that's a

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category error.
You know, people love, love to

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play like smack it with these
category errors and like, OK,

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but but these categories were
not given to us, you know, by by

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aliens who came down and told us
this is this is how they define

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the universe.
And then here the here's

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categories, these categories
have to evolve with this, with

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the science.
And if we're going to have

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frameworks that are not just
sort of armchair, this is how I

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define it.
And and I'm that like, that's

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it.
That's how, that's how I'm now

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I'm going to have opinions on
this based on just how I how I

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feel about it.
Then then we're going to have to

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do experiments that that means
getting quantitative and getting

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to the point where we have a
rigorous framework that either

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guides experiments or becomes a
fleshed out in some sort of

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computational work or something
like that.

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So that's the those are the
motivations.

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Yeah, and as a philosopher and
engaging mostly with

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philosophers, at least in the in
the first part of my academic

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career, actually I was at the
NYU with David Chalmers when

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when when I got in touch with
Mike initially, Luke Roltz, all

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these discussions that we
addressed in this paper or all

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these problems.
For example, the definition of

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cognition.
How can one have a definition

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that doesn't bake a priori
essentials into the very result

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of the inquiry which is based on
the definition.

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So the notion of representation,
for example, is 11 good example.

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What counts as a representation
is a very much an open problem.

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And in philosophy, as Mike was
saying, some sometimes it feels

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like it's a matter of taste what
what you end up having given

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your taste with which you start.
So in our paper, we try to shift

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from this mostly primarily,
mostly conceptual approach to

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also a formal approach.
And if you do that, the the

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litmus test is OK.
How profitable is this move in

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the end game?
And that means you need not only

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to be productive, but you also
need to be precise because

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otherwise you are you're just
spinning your wheels in in in

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the castles of abstraction as as
philosophers often do.

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So then that forces forced us to
think, OK, if we want to have a

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a sort of cosmopolitan notion of
cognition or intelligence, how

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we define intelligence is it's a
crucial move right at the

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beginning of the project.
And that's where inspired by Max

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previous work, we thought of
intelligence as a way to, to

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quantify the efficiency with
which an arbitrary system moves

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into an arbitrary problem space.
And all of these are very

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important notions.
The, the notion of often of a

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problem space, the notion of, of
states, the notion of, of

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operators, all, all the things
that we, we go into more details

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in the, in the formalism of the
paper, but the, the fundamental

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idea is quite simple.
If you are more efficient in

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solving a problem, you are more
intelligent.

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But the the tricky part is not
only recognizing the problem

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which is relevant for the system
itself.

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Again, recursively, we get back
to the idea of us as observers

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being given an intelligence test
in the very fact that we want to

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detect intelligence.
So recognizing the very idea of

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of a problem for a system and
mapping out the problem space

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for that system and not for you
as the observer, that's a

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fundamentally difficult issue.
So not only is that then

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quantifying, given those
parameters, how efficient is a

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system in that problem space?
And then the most important

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question perhaps is what is the,
the, the ground truth for that?

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What is the best null model you
can use for quantifying

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intelligence, which is a matter
of efficiency?

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And the the best answer, at
least provisionally in this

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paper was doing it relative to
chance.

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It's the most ecumenical, the,
the, the, the most, the less

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loaded assumption, formal
assumptions you can make to

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quantify the, the, the
efficiency degree of something.

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But it also has problems and we
can talk about them later.

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So that's roughly the the
context, the dialectical context

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under the the what, what
choices, what formal choices and

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and and conceptual choices we
had to make.

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Well, I mean, you brought this
up, so I think let's go into it.

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I was going to ask you something
else, but I think it can wait.

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When it comes to this
intelligence as efficient

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search, You guys revive a new
Alan Simon's idea that

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intelligence averts
combinatorial explosions.

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Why is search efficiency OK in
the paper The Right unifying

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matrix for scale 3 theory I.
Mean with L metrics and all

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mathematical formalisms, you can
have many of them packed into a

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concept.
So it's not like you can have a

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uniqueness proof for this
mathematical construction.

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As as Mike was saying in the in
the beginning, you you you judge

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a construct based on its
fruitfulness.

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So this was in a sense of of
mathematical hypothesis of first

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way to flesh to flesh this out.
And we have ongoing work in

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progress where we try to embed
this problem space formalism

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into the free energy principle
because there are multiple

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alternative formulations that
one can give of this problem

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space.
But why and and and this is this

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is an excellent point you made.
We try to revive the newer and

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Simon conception, which is from
the 1972 at least.

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And and this is a classical
conception in cognitive science.

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But the reason we we try to do
that is because we wanted to

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address the skeptics in skeptics
in the, in the cognition wars,

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in the basal cognition wars,
right on their territory.

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Because the work by Neil and
Simon was primarily addressed,

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was primarily addressed in the
human case of problem solving.

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So it was mostly in the era of
symbolic AI.

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So go far and all that done that
ancient AI, now ancient AI

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discussion.
So we try to build on that, but

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also extend that to the way in
which we found palatable for our

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current contemporary and
scientific sensitivities.

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So we took that, added some
elements to it and proposed K as

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the as this ratio, as the log
turn of the ratio between

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directed or a genetic or or
system specific search versus a

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null model, which would be a Max
sent maximum entropy or random

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search for that system.
So whether that is the unique

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metric that cannot be given a
formal proof, probably, but I

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think it's a useful metric if we
start using it and the the proof

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was in the pudding of our two
computational models, which were

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mostly if you want on the net
king calculations based on the

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current empirical literature we
have on the on on panaria and

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bacterial chemotaxis.
So we that required a lot of

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empirical assumptions which we
inerted from the literature.

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But once we did that and were
able to specify concretely what

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is the problem space, what are
the states, the operators, the

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constraints, the horizon and
what was the the the last one

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there are it's a 5 Tuffle now
forgetting my my, my point.

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So let's let's rewind this.
So once the.

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SOCH.
Yeah, yeah.

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So, yeah, that is it.
Yeah, exactly.

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So rewind.
So once you specify the the, the

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states, the operator, the
constraints, the evaluation

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functional and the horizon in a
in a specific way, then you can

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start evaluating.
And given all these assumptions

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and, and K defined as it was, we
found multiple orders of

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magnitudes, billions of orders
of of of magnitudes of

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00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,320
efficiency, even under the most
conservative assumptions.

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And and we took the right from
we took, we took those

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assumptions right from Mike's
work on on on on planaria.

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And even even if we make the
most conservative assumptions,

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00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,440
which means we underestimate
rather than overestimate

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00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,520
intelligence, we still end up
with fantastically higher

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efficiency relative to A to a
null model.

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Mike, anything you'd like to add
to that?

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00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,320
Well, there's two there's
there's two interesting things

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00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,320
here I could comment on.
One is that, you know, in

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general, have having a framework
like this that is really a

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formal in a way that's substrate
agnostic is incredibly powerful.

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00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,200
Because this is typically, you
know, people have a really hard

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time porting words and the
concepts from, you know, sort of

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behavioral science and this kind
of like agentic talk onto other

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substrates.
And it always kind of feels

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wrong to a lot of people.
But having a formalism that says

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no, no, the mapping is good and
here's why we can actually map

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00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:35,560
this stuff on and it works very
well.

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00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,440
You know, sort of it's nice and
clean like that, that that has a

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lot of that has a lot of value
to it.

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And this is partly why I'm sort
of so, so enamored of James''s

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00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,360
original definition of
intelligence because it is so

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00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,480
cybernetic.
Like it's, it doesn't say you're

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a brain and it doesn't say what
space you're in.

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00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,480
And it doesn't say, you know,
how you got here or what you're

257
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,080
made of or any of that stuff.
It's like very, you know,

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general and very powerful.
And it tells you like it's, it's

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00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,560
calling to you to say, Hey,
maybe I could apply this to

260
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other things, right?
Like it's daring you to do that.

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00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,960
So, so I, so I like that a lot.
The other thing I'll just

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mention about efficiency is, is
the following.

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00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,440
And I think, I think there's an
interesting, an interesting

264
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feedback loop here, which is
that if you're a biological and,

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00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,480
and there's actually a whole
other thing that Robert and I

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00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,480
need to kind of talk about and,
and extend this to, to, to non

267
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,160
biological, like to pre
biological kinds of things,

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00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:29,080
right?
Because I think we're going to

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find stuff there too.
But, but for, but for sure, if

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you're a biological, you don't
have efficiency is really key

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because you don't have time to
be a Laplacian demon, OK?

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You don't have time to look at
microstates to try and calculate

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every damn thing that's going to
happen.

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And you know, to, to you, you
will be dead and gone long.

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But before you compute the
first, the first thing.

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So, So what that means is that
you're under a tremendous amount

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of pressure to to be efficient,
but be efficient.

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00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,480
How?
By course graining by having

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00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:00,560
strategies to navigate the
world.

280
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:01,960
And that means putting labels on
things.

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00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,599
That means having making models
in the world of large scale

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00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:07,720
systems, doing things.
You don't have time to track all

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00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,960
the particles that are impinging
on your on your surface.

284
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,800
You have to have these large
scale models and and I think

285
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that's very powerful because if
you have a pressure to see the

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00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,240
environment as containing agents
that do things, eventually you

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00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,560
turn that light on to yourself
and you say, wait a minute, I'm

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00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,119
an agent that does things and
it's sort of right.

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00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,640
And it can it, it, it what kind
of cranks up this now, to the

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00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,520
extent that you do that you
become more efficient, which

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00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,240
then, right.
So, so there's like this, this,

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00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,880
this, this feedback loop, which
I think really favors, you know,

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00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,400
there's a, there's a reason we
see agents everywhere.

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00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,680
And it's not because we're just
like terribly, you know,

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00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:44,920
deluded.
And, and it like, it's, it pays

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00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:46,200
off.
Like, dude, there's a reason why

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00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:47,880
we do this.
And I mean, of course you can

298
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,160
make mistakes, but, but, but
mostly it pays off.

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00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,600
So I think efficiency from that
perspective, it gives us a, a

300
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,600
glimpse into a, a driving force
for what makes us agents and

301
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,720
what thus enables us to see
other agents.

302
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,000
So this is, you know, part of
part.

303
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,160
I see this as part of that.
I mean, before we continue the

304
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:13,600
the title neuroscience beyond
neurons, sorry that it's sort of

305
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,480
decent as neurons without
dismissing neuroscience as well.

306
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,080
So what Robert, perhaps you
could give us the answer to

307
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:21,200
this.
What does mainstream

308
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,120
neuroscience get right from a
philosophical perspective and

309
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:29,160
what does it miss by by staying
neurocentric neuron centric?

310
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,720
Well, mainstream neuroscience is
even hard to to to characterize

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00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,240
what what is mainstream
neuroscience in this sense of?

312
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,480
So it's probably the the status
quo which considers that

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00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,440
intelligence and cognition even
are the prerequisite of of of

314
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,720
brains or only nervous system.
But then even that that is a

315
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,760
complicated question.
Which brains of which animals,

316
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,000
which nervous system, how many
parts of the nervous system, at

317
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,960
what degree of resolution of the
nervous system can you consider?

318
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,520
Is the medulla intelligent in
the human brain?

319
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,600
All these kind of questions.
So when you start rolling the

320
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,760
ball on being skeptical on the
assumptions and then then you,

321
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,720
you start, OK, what about the
subsystem in the, in the

322
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,000
dorsolateral prefrontal cortex?
What about the mini column?

323
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:25,240
That's about 100,000 neurons.
How, how many, what about the

324
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,880
filament in the mini column?
Are those systems intelligence?

325
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,960
What about the single neuron you
see?

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00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,760
So, so the, the, the fact that
you ask these questions and then

327
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,880
if you are knowledgeable of, of,
of, of, of even a modicum of

328
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:45,120
brain neurophysiology, you start
thinking maybe there is

329
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:48,880
something to this.
Maybe I should not be so neuron

330
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:54,160
chauvinists or maybe I I should
not have the same certainty that

331
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:59,160
I have when it comes to to
humans when I attribute or

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00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,040
actually not attribute
intelligence to other systems

333
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,280
and.
And as we we do that, we

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00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,840
progressively start departing
from something like a, a gaseous

335
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,640
consensus.
There is a core of the consensus

336
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,280
in neuroscience, the brains and
nervous systems and animals.

337
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,480
So the seat of intelligence is
the the Organism.

338
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,640
And that is in almost all cases
an Organism with the nervous

339
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,360
system and in almost all cases a
nervous system with a

340
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:27,680
centralized brain or something
like that.

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00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,800
Cephalopod, moles said are
within that space, but once you

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00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:37,600
get around or beyond that core
of that crystallized core in in

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00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,520
the mainstream neuroscience, so
to speak, you get to more

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00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:45,040
gaseous regions of the of the
periphery.

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00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,840
And then that's where we started
building.

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00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:52,720
OK, what happens if you push
through this gas and go as much

347
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,960
in an exploration as you can?
How deep can you go?

348
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,040
Can you go to a single cell?
Can you go to something like

349
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,840
Mike was intimating that is pre
biological.

350
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,360
And our answer is yes, I think
we can.

351
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:10,280
And the onus is on us to make
this in a conceptually coherent

352
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:15,040
and formally rigorous way and
then obviously try to obtain

353
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:19,000
data and validate those those
those decisions we made on the

354
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,200
theoretical side experimentally.
But the fact that we questioned

355
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,640
the assumption that's that's the
point that the fact that we are

356
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:32,200
not locked ossified in the core
of Mason neuroscience.

357
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:40,800
So the fact that we are not in
the core cognition like like

358
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,720
brain centric, corticocentric or
whatever.

359
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,920
Yeah, the Cortico.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

360
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,000
We are not we are not there that
that's because we think in in

361
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:56,400
this more nomadic ways.
Well, look, I'm I'm super

362
00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,000
excited to hear about the pre
biological part, but we need to

363
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,280
build up to that.
So going along the lines of the

364
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,800
paper, Mike, why measure
relative to a blind random walk

365
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,560
rather than human benchmarks or
tasks success let's say like

366
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,320
what problem does this
logarithmic continuous scale

367
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,480
dissolve versus binary cognitive
non cognitive notions?

368
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,600
Yeah.
And actually just something real

369
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,400
quick about the previous, just
to say something about the

370
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,000
previous question.
You know, one one thing that I

371
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:36,000
think neuroscience gets
massively right is the idea that

372
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,600
what you're studying is
literally a multi scale system

373
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:46,320
where causal influence at least
not everybody believes this, but

374
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,840
you know, at least at least some
neurosciences do causal

375
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,560
influence traverses up and down
the whole stack.

376
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,000
So it's right.
So, so this idea that all of it

377
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,240
is valuable.
So, so yes, the synaptic

378
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,800
proteins are yes, you need to
know about that, but also

379
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,680
there's the network properties
and there's the what?

380
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,440
And then eventually
psychoanalysis, right?

381
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,280
Like like all of these things.
So, so that the multi scale, the

382
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,560
the idea that what we're looking
at is a multi scale problem

383
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,000
where all of the scales are
important.

384
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,280
We're all they're all generating
something, something new.

385
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:22,360
This is very unique and it's and
it's, and, and yes, there are

386
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,840
people in the field who think
that ad or eventually it all

387
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,760
gets boiled down to chemistry.
I, I don't know, nobody seems to

388
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,080
think it gets boiled down to
quantum foam.

389
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,120
I don't know why that is.
They kind of stop at chemistry.

390
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,080
But, but, but, but I think most
people think that there is new,

391
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,240
there are new and new aspects
introduced at the different

392
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,160
levels that it's not just all
going to be eventually, you

393
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,960
know, chemistry, but in other
fields, for example, in

394
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,200
developmental biology, I think
almost nobody believes that.

395
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,520
I think, I think people do think
that that these higher levels

396
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,400
don't really add anything.
At best, there are some cool

397
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,880
sort of sort of evolutionary
patterns that you see at large

398
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,840
scale.
But fundamentally it's all this

399
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,440
the story of chemistry rattling
around.

400
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,480
And, and I think, I think we can
really learn from neuroscience

401
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:07,760
this this multi scale kind of
kind of approach.

402
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:12,320
And so I think so I think that's
critical, But nevertheless, I

403
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,600
don't think, I don't know if I
can say this, but I, I don't

404
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:17,320
think that neuroscience is the
study of neurons.

405
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,160
I think it's the study of multi
scale causation, which happens

406
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,600
to be like, these neurons are
like an amazing example of that,

407
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,160
that, that we can, you know,
that we see may be the best

408
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,360
example so far, but I don't
think it's the study of neurons

409
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:33,080
per SE.
And so now, so now for your, for

410
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,640
your quick question, why?
Why not compare it to humans?

411
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:42,920
This, I think is really critical
because humans like like look at

412
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,640
look at a lot of the debate
around AI.

413
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,040
People say, well, is it it's
just like a human or it's not

414
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,800
like a human?
Why, why do you need to compare

415
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,040
it to a human?
If your, if your goal is to

416
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,680
understand its nature and what,
how much intelligence it has and

417
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,560
what kind of intelligence it
has, why are humans the

418
00:24:58,560 --> 00:24:59,960
comparison?
I mean, I get it.

419
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:03,480
We want collaborators and Co
workers and you know that, that

420
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,640
are fast and smart and all that.
But but, but really, biology has

421
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,920
been solving problems and doing
intelligence long before we had

422
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,920
humans and even long before we
had neurons, and I would argue

423
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,600
before we had real cells even.
But but the point is, I don't

424
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,400
think the human, you know,
humans should be the measure of

425
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,320
all things, you know, right.
There's got to be there there

426
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:25,240
there must be ways to be
intelligent and to have all

427
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,680
these other cognitive features
that we want that are nothing

428
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,680
like humans.
I think it's incredibly

429
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,080
dangerous to think that humans
are going to be the measure of

430
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,880
everything both, both for
practical reasons, because we're

431
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,920
going to miss and not see
things, but but but also very

432
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,080
importantly for ethical reasons,
because because we have a huge

433
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,680
difficulty seeing minds that are
not like ours.

434
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,320
And we have to start by just
acknowledging that humans are

435
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:47,800
not the measure of everything
interest.

436
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,000
And, and just to add something
to to this danger of

437
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,800
anthropocentrism or actually
anthropomorphism, the fact that

438
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:02,120
we accept multiple scales in the
in the multi causation, multi

439
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:07,120
causal composition of a system
means that as an observer that

440
00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:12,400
is able with some some degree of
resolution access those scales,

441
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,080
you must recognize the problem
space is operant at those

442
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,560
scales.
So you would eventually end up

443
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,760
as seeing each system, if you
have enough data and enough

444
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:29,400
resolution to to sample, you
will see it as a, as a Republic

445
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:35,720
of competent problem solvers or
as a some sort of sometimes

446
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,760
cooperating, sometimes not
cooperating democracy of, of

447
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,200
intelligencies.
And at each scale you analyze,

448
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,760
you must make scale specific
assumptions.

449
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,560
But the beauty of of the
framework we propose is that no

450
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,240
matter what essentials play out
at the single scale, you can use

451
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,400
a formalism that is scaling
variant.

452
00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:01,240
And that was the attempt of of
formalizing Mike's previous work

453
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,960
with with with Chris Fields on
on the on the multi scale

454
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,160
competency architecture.
Yeah.

455
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:10,240
Yeah, I think, yeah, let's let's
go further into this.

456
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,440
Robert, you're the quintuple
expands classical problem

457
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,600
spaces.
Why is it key that biological

458
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:25,080
systems don't just search but
reshape spaces by editing

459
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,640
constraints, operators or
horizons?

460
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:34,360
Those were just a few examples.
I mean, if, if you want to, to

461
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:37,480
develop these, these things in,
in, in detail, you'd probably

462
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,840
write more than one book to just
to develop, to pursue a single

463
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,720
constant.
But the the point as, as Mike

464
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,880
was mentioning and and in the
original work by by Neil and

465
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,800
Simon, usually when you want to
solve a problem, you search in

466
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,880
the space of possible solutions.
So, so you search for an end

467
00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,120
state that is given a cost of
operators that you incur by

468
00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:02,680
pursuing the trajectory to that
state.

469
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:10,080
You as a human, you rehearse in
your mind, you rehearse sort of

470
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,040
a simulation of what the
trajectory would be.

471
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,160
So that is counterfactual
reasoning.

472
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:20,160
Now when you are not assuming
that something like a bacterium

473
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,840
can do the same counterfactual
deep reasoning as we can do,

474
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,240
that invites the question, how
can a bacterium or any other

475
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,480
system consider multiple
trajectories for the solutions

476
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:40,000
it has at its at its disposal?
So that raises certain problems.

477
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,400
In the original formulations by
Neil and Simon, it was already

478
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,360
baked in that you would have the
human analog of counterfactual

479
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:54,480
reasoning, a human that given
some states, some operators and

480
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,440
some constraints and that is it.
No necessarily any valuation

481
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,760
functional, no, no horizon.
And now I'll get to the horizon

482
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,440
in a second.
You would be able to to to to

483
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:10,080
specify a problem space and and
quantify a such efficiency if

484
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,120
you are able to computationally
simulate the entirety of the

485
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:15,480
state space for that problem
space.

486
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,800
And that that brings certain
problems in in all systems, not

487
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,200
only humans.
But let's let's go with the the

488
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,720
argument.
So the reason for adding an

489
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,080
evaluation functional and then
adding the horizon as as as a

490
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:30,920
construct.
What are the following?

491
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,840
The valuation function is a sort
of metric of expenditure that

492
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,560
you would apply to each
iteration of some operator.

493
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:47,000
So if you have certain costs
that are associated with the

494
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,040
iteration, with the application
of an operator that moves you in

495
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,200
the state space and that cost
can can be and will be scale

496
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,040
specific.
There will be AATP units, there

497
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:05,960
will be a limit, a limited
amount of of possible spaces in

498
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,600
the 3D space that you can make
when you go to someplace.

499
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,640
So, so all of these are are are
costs you must be able to

500
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,440
evaluate internally from the
perspective of the system that

501
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,000
you are evaluate better and
worse moves.

502
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,600
If you don't have that, you are
immediately bound to be

503
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,720
haphazardly sampling the the
problem space.

504
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,160
And that that puts you into the
combinatorial explosion

505
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,640
territory in into into exploding
regime of of of search options.

506
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:42,000
Because the moment you try to to
estimate how big is a problem

507
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:47,200
space for a given system, that
means defining the, the, the the

508
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,200
smallest possible state.
The microstate means course of

509
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,480
course, graining, averaging, so
that there are all all sorts of

510
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,360
of techniques for dimensionality
reductions and and state space

511
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,840
estimation.
You would see immediately that

512
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,320
if a system would not have a way
to tell that is going into the

513
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,760
right direction and it's not
necessary that the system can

514
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,000
have something like a
counterfactual reasoning as as

515
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,120
humans do, they might be running
out of energy.

516
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,200
Energy in this sense, as as a
very trivial example, would be

517
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,280
the signal that the system is
not solving the problem well.

518
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:27,320
And that's as fundamental in
biological terms as it gets.

519
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:33,680
You run out of energy, you run
out of life, so to speak.

520
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:40,000
So, and the horizon would be
adding a sort of step size if

521
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:46,120
you want each agent depending on
on the depth of it's in the

522
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,840
mainstream New York style stock
abstraction abilities, coarse

523
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,040
graining and and labeling
abilities.

524
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:58,600
Even if you are known on a known
human system has some form of,

525
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:05,680
of depth to its abilities to
abstract moves, possible moves.

526
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,760
And, and that is something that
we think is is important even

527
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,080
for a system.
And that that's probably 1 of

528
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,440
the hardest ways or one of the
hardest constructs to to, to

529
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,360
estimate for a, for a single
scale, for a specific scale.

530
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,000
But I think, I think it's
something important and it ends

531
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,680
up in in informing the problem
space discussion quite, quite a

532
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,800
lot is the human equivalent of
counterfactual depth.

533
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:40,440
Mike, any comments on that?
In general on the quintuple and

534
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,720
how it expands classical problem
spaces as well.

535
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,600
No, I think, I think it's, it's,
it's very, very plastic.

536
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,680
I think we can apply it to a lot
of different things.

537
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,840
And I've got, you know, all
sorts of all sorts of ideas for

538
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,960
weird, weird things to, you
know, like, like, like one of

539
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,840
the one of the issues is, as
you, you mentioned this in your

540
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,640
last question is how we're doing
better than the binary.

541
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:04,880
Why is it better to do the
binary?

542
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,520
So the, the thing about these
binaries is that inevitably in

543
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,040
biology, everything we know from
both evolution and developmental

544
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,640
biology is that all of these
things are slow, continuous

545
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,920
processes, right?
We all start life as a little,

546
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,920
little drop of chemicals and
eventually we end up at whatever

547
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,480
we are now.
And, and you have to get there

548
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,160
slowly and gradually.
And so the real question is what

549
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,520
happens along the way?
What it, what is that journey

550
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,240
like, right.
They, you actually go through

551
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:32,240
all the different disciplines,
right?

552
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,840
So you start off in chemistry
and physics and then some kind

553
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,600
of developmental Physiology and
eventually behavior science.

554
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,920
And then maybe you can, you
know, psychiatry or something

555
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,400
later on.
But like, like you go through

556
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:46,520
all these different disciplines.
And it would be, it would be,

557
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,360
you know, sort of remarkable to
see how this kind of formalism

558
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,280
applies all along the way.
Because because you, we have to

559
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,560
have a, we, we have to be able
to tell a story of that

560
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,520
transformation.
And maybe so, so, so I think

561
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,440
what people assume the null
hypothesis I think for a lot of

562
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,280
people is that there are phase
transitions, right?

563
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,239
That that like, yeah, yeah, the
underlying sort of mechanisms

564
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,400
are slow and gradual.
But, but there are these phase

565
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,480
transitions like you do a little
bit and then like more is

566
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,639
different and then you get in
some kind of, some kind of

567
00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:17,840
sigmoid or something like that,
right.

568
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,040
And so, and so maybe that's
true, but I, I don't see that as

569
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,639
the, the null hypothesis.
I see that as something that has

570
00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:26,520
to be be argued.
Like if that's true, you have to

571
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,159
show that.
You have to show what is it

572
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:29,960
that's sharp?
The, the, you know, the makes a

573
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,440
phase transition and, and why is
it that you can't just zoom in

574
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,560
there and still see it as smooth
at a higher level of resolution?

575
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,440
Like most sigmoids, you zoom in
and it's nice and flat again.

576
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,480
So anyway, so, so this, This is
why I think it's important to be

577
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,840
able to tell stories that aren't
binary because I think the

578
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,600
phenomenon is not binary.
Our categories are binary.

579
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,360
The way the way people use the
word adult, you know, you want

580
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:54,679
it.
You want it for traffic courts

581
00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:57,760
so that you don't have to spend
every, you know, every case is

582
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,360
like this long debate about what
does it mean to mature into

583
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,160
personal responsibility?
Like nobody wants that.

584
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:03,560
So fine, so we have this word
adult.

585
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,520
But it basically conceals the
fact that underneath that are a

586
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:08,840
bunch of unanswered questions
about.

587
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,640
Yeah.
So how did you become a fully

588
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,440
responsible human and what
happens with brain tumors and

589
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,640
Twinkies and then all the things
that impinge on, on, on your

590
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,000
sort of full responsibility and,
and, and so on.

591
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:20,600
So, so I think that's what
happens here.

592
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,640
We use these binary categories.
It's it's fine to use them for

593
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,280
expediency, but we better not
sort of forget what, what

594
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,320
actually underwrites them.
And, and yeah.

595
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,120
And so the right to continue
understanding that story of

596
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:37,120
transformation across
disciplines is, is I think what

597
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,400
we need to do.
Yeah, and.

598
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,240
And just to add something to
that, just just a quick addition

599
00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:46,680
to that.
This is in a sense trailblazing

600
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,720
because we are proposing
something, something that it's

601
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,400
that it's, it wasn't the
literature in in some larval

602
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,160
form.
We, we made it grow into

603
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,400
something like a, like a pupa
maybe.

604
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:06,960
And we are now waiting for the
butterfly to come out.

605
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,200
And that will take effort.
And just imagine, as I'm

606
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,880
thinking out loud here, but
imagine if you have something

607
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:17,320
like this analysis or something
similar, something that's both

608
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:22,040
quantifiable, mathematically,
conceptually coherent, but also

609
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,720
empirically accessible.
Imagine you do this recursively

610
00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:29,160
for multiple scales or for
multiple systems, and then you

611
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,280
would have a Ledger of all the
scores you make for K or

612
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,600
something similar.
And then you start seeing that

613
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:42,040
certain combinatorial explosions
after a certain phase

614
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,800
transition, a certain bent on
the sigmoid is more important

615
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,240
than another.
So some there would be a

616
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,160
threshold at which interesting
things happen if you start

617
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,560
thinking in this way in which we
propose.

618
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,000
But that means applying this
formalism, trying to think in

619
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,160
these terms and trying to see
empirically what happens and get

620
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:07,600
scores, mathematical benchmarks
for efficiency in problem

621
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,600
spaces, given that you've
estimated the spaces in some

622
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,480
way.
And then maybe, maybe maybe you,

623
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:17,000
you get some very interesting
insights into thresholds.

624
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,320
Maybe there's nothing much
happening that two orders of

625
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,000
magnitude better than chance or
five orders of magnitude better.

626
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,480
But maybe at at the a billion
orders of magnitude, maybe

627
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,400
that's something that happens
and it's, it's impressive.

628
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,840
And no matter the size of the
observer that you are, if you if

629
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,520
you are big enough, you will see
it so.

630
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,440
Yeah, it's it's for me.
It was going to be asking about

631
00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:45,360
a practical approach this
because practically, what does

632
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,840
it mean that evolution retiles
problem spaces rather than just

633
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,520
speeding up searches and which
element, for example,

634
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,480
constraints, let's say, do
biologists most often overlook?

635
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:02,360
Do you guys think?
Want to take this one Mike or

636
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:07,240
should I?
Should I can start, I guess I, I

637
00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:11,360
think, I think part of the issue
is the, the focus on constraints

638
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,760
to begin with, in other words.
And, and I realized that that

639
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,320
folks who, who you know, who are
focused on this work, they're

640
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,080
very careful.
And they say constraints isn't

641
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:21,840
just about the things you can't
do and whatever.

642
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,480
But, but, but, but still,
there's a difference between

643
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,680
constraints in the sense that,
OK, I've shut off this set of

644
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,920
things that are possible to you.
So now you go over here and you

645
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,880
do some other things versus
really taking seriously this

646
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,840
notion of enablements, right?
The idea that there are certain

647
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,120
things that they don't just shut
off possibilities and they don't

648
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:48,160
just shunt you into new into
more of the same just, you know,

649
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,120
a little different.
It's it's I, I, I think, and

650
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,080
it's pretty good controversial.
I understand that.

651
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,680
And there's a lot of work to be
to be done to flesh this up.

652
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,240
But, but really this notion of
getting more out than you put

653
00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:04,760
in, you know, I think biology is
amazing at this, but I also

654
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,600
think you already see this in,
in, in math and, and some other

655
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,880
places where where you really
get more out than you put in.

656
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,800
It's not just a constraint, it's
actually an enablement.

657
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,800
And I think biology and
evolution like just really

658
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,760
exploit the, excuse me, exploit
the heck out of that out of

659
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,080
these kind of free lunches.
So I so I think that's that's

660
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:31,800
that's interesting.
So in the to continue the thread

661
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,960
in the original formulations by
Newell and Simon, finding new

662
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,360
constraints for a problem.
Which means in a sense that

663
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:46,280
redefining the problem space was
in some cases found to to

664
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,040
converse the solutions that were
not available until you do that

665
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:55,200
retiling of the problem space.
Which means the system that that

666
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,360
solves the problem if it has
enough degrees of freedom.

667
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,760
And again, this is a story about
the multi scale causal

668
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,080
architecture of a system.
So it's a story of multi

669
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:10,200
causation.
You can, or the system can edit

670
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,880
the constraints which define the
problem space, rather than just

671
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,560
iterating on operators and
applying the different sets of

672
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,760
operators it has at its disposal
to traverse the space.

673
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,240
And obviously some of that
description might sound vague

674
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:30,400
and abstract, but then you can
be quite pragmatic about it and

675
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,400
practical about it, because
systems have all sorts of

676
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,320
feedback mechanisms and sensors
to detect their own internal

677
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,920
states.
And especially this recurrent

678
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:45,880
architecture is ideally suited
to be able to relax or enable

679
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,760
some constraints or even close
other constraints.

680
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:53,760
And there are countless examples
one could give if you hear of of

681
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,280
state transitions or or dynamics
that's possible only under

682
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,720
certain conditions and not
others.

683
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,640
For example, just having a tad
bit more dopamine in your

684
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,920
mesocortical tract will do
wonders for the refresh rate of

685
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,080
your cognition, whereas not
having that dopamine will make

686
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,120
you less able to retire the
constraints of your abstract

687
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,800
spaces when you when you try to
to visit them.

688
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,840
And that's that's just the the
presence of of a single compound

689
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:27,160
or anything at the scale
specific thing can have in the

690
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:31,240
problem space formulation can
have an effect of working on the

691
00:41:31,240 --> 00:41:35,160
constraints rather than working
on the exploration itself, which

692
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,520
is something distinct because
the constraints define even, I

693
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,840
mean formally here define what's
admissible as a set of of of

694
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,920
moves or actually defines the
what's not admissible.

695
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,720
But yeah.
So that means if you open some

696
00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:55,360
moves that were not available
before, it's like you would open

697
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,080
territories in the problem space
that you were closed off, sort

698
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:03,600
of you explore new paths of the
world and it's an open world,

699
00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:06,920
not close the world anymore.
And that means you might find

700
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,720
solutions that are way more
efficient to reach your end

701
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:15,160
state, which is your goal.
So yeah, that's that's the

702
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:16,880
story.
And to bring that back to

703
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:22,040
evolution, evolution does this
automatically in a sense.

704
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,440
But then the question is does
the evolution do this

705
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:30,680
adjunctively or we as the
observer observers are able to

706
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,960
see that evolution worked on
some constraints and was able to

707
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,080
find solutions which were not
available until the side work on

708
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,240
constraints was done.
So we are able to recognize at

709
00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:44,320
the abstractions with which
operates also in the cushioning

710
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,640
of our obstructions were able to
recognize this was not search

711
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,120
evolution, search for some
solutions for this.

712
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,760
But then he found a way to to
relax constraints.

713
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,560
And 11 simple example that comes
into the mind is the development

714
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:01,520
of of multiple ion channels.
So the fact that that that you

715
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,320
started with I, I think it was,
it was sodium or it was

716
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,400
potassium first or what was it?
Sodium 1st and then you had

717
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,840
calcium and then, then you, you
had the third one.

718
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:15,360
The each each of these thing is
like I'm relaxing a bit the the

719
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,720
constraints of the of the the
problem space.

720
00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:23,080
I'm enabling an explosion of
possible other moves which then

721
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,200
ultimately open new vistas of of
solutions that are are

722
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,840
profitable for the that the
system in question.

723
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,520
Yeah, that's, that's actually
an, an awesome example because

724
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,560
right.
So you evolve a voltage gated

725
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,320
potassium channel or whatever,
right?

726
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,240
And so now you've got yourself a
voltage gate at current

727
00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:45,480
conductance, AKA a transistor.
You have a couple of those, you

728
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,720
have a logic gate, all of the
truth tables, right?

729
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:51,800
The fact that NAND is special,
like all this cool stuff, you

730
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,440
get that for free.
You don't need to evolve that.

731
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,080
You get all those properties for
free because you create, right?

732
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:02,920
So that's the enablement, right?
You get all that stuff because

733
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:07,160
you made the appropriate
interface to those dynamics.

734
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:10,640
Yeah, I would love to.
So, So one of the things, so

735
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,880
Robert, I don't remember if
we've talked about this at all,

736
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:14,960
but one of the things that
there's, I have a whole list of

737
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:16,400
things we're going to need to
apply this to.

738
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,080
But but one of the things you
know talking about new spaces is

739
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,040
have you seen, have you seen our
stuff on iterated prisoner's

740
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,120
dilemma?
Yeah, there isn't.

741
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:27,680
Yeah.
So yeah, so this is elections

742
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:33,240
work where you have these agents
just playing a prisoner's

743
00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:35,000
dilemma with each other, right,
in a spatialized thing.

744
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:39,440
But they have the option.
They can defect and cooperate,

745
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:40,880
but they can also merge and
split.

746
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,240
So what happens over time is
that these things, they, they

747
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:46,600
actually tend to merge.
So you get these blobs, blobs,

748
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,480
blobs forming, right?
That is, is everything.

749
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,120
When you, when you do that, you
of course change the payoff

750
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,600
table because now the number of
players is different.

751
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,160
So, so it completely like,
right.

752
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,800
It's, it's very, you know, sort
of recurrent and all that.

753
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,160
And, and there's something,
there's something fun that

754
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,640
happens at the end, which I
didn't realize until we actually

755
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,160
did the experiment.
Of course I should, I should

756
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,160
have thought of it.
You, you, you look at the, you

757
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,920
look at the, the reward that
they're getting right from it.

758
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,160
It turns out that, that, that,
you know, coming together is, is

759
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:16,840
good.
And so, you know, so the reward

760
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,400
goes up, goes up and then
eventually just like plummets at

761
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,040
the end, it just drops.
I said, what the hell is this?

762
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,440
Why, why is it, Why is it
suddenly dropping when things

763
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,320
are getting back?
And then I realized what happens

764
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,840
when you, when everybody merges
and you get so big that you take

765
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,360
up most of your world.
There's nobody to play with.

766
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,040
And if there's nobody to play,
there's, there's no, there's no,

767
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,280
there's no one to I, you know,
to cooperate with and there's

768
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,840
so, so that's it.
And then everybody, you know,

769
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:41,400
then, then, then the reward
plummets.

770
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,000
And so there's a couple of
different thing ways you can,

771
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:45,600
you can handle that.
And we, we said this in the

772
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,240
paper, like one thing you could
do is you could just say, well,

773
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:49,880
hate death of the universe.
That's, that's it.

774
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:51,360
I guess you've eaten everything
there is to eat.

775
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:52,880
The whole thing dies and that's
the end of that.

776
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,560
That's one way to do it.
Another way to do it is to have

777
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,360
like a like a big bag Big Bang,
big crunch cycle because

778
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,360
everybody gets together.
Then there's the stress of not

779
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,480
having any to play with.
So you're all you're all bored

780
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,600
and kind of freaking out.
And so you fragment, right?

781
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,520
It's like a like a stress
induced multiple.

782
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:12,960
You know what dissociative state
basically, right.

783
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,440
So you you break up into pieces
again.

784
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:16,440
Then you spend a bunch of time
coming back together again.

785
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,080
Then so it's crunchy, OK,
oscillation.

786
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,920
But but the third thing you can
do and and we haven't done this

787
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:23,120
yet, but I think it would be
really neat.

788
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,800
And now, and now I'm thinking we
should be, we should be using

789
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:30,200
this formalism to analyze that
all, all that data is to say

790
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:34,440
that, well, once you do merge,
you now have access to a new

791
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,000
space you didn't have access to
before.

792
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,680
So as single cells, you have,
you're solving problems in

793
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,280
metabolic space and you know
what transcriptional space, the

794
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,640
physiological space, but you get
together into a big sheet and

795
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,800
well, now you have anatomical
amorphous space that you can

796
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,480
play with because now you can
have stresses and, and tensions

797
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,960
that bend you into a, you know
what different shape and you

798
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:56,520
know, your tube or a ball or
something.

799
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,120
And now, now you get to explore.
So there's a new space, which in

800
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:00,960
our system they didn't, they
didn't have access to, but, but

801
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,960
it's kind of like it's related
to what you were talking about.

802
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,680
Now, you know, at some point, at
some point, you, you break into

803
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:11,240
an entirely new space and you
reap the benefits of the laws

804
00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:12,480
that are there.
And they're not just

805
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,120
constraints.
I mean, there's some constraints

806
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:15,320
like you can't go faster than
those.

807
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:17,880
But the but there are other
things that are enablements like

808
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,920
oh if you do this well suddenly
you get handed the, you know,

809
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,320
truth tables or or or other
facts of.

810
00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:28,240
There are certainly no free
lunches in this universe, but

811
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:32,120
then at, at some, in some
spaces, there are wonders to be

812
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,640
discovered that are not
available until you, you go

813
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,480
there.
And ultimately it's degrees of

814
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,280
freedom and and degrees of free
energy that, that, that you

815
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,800
access.
So if, if you think of, of your

816
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,160
skin as capturing sunlight,
there's only so much you can

817
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:47,760
capture.
But imagine if your skin was the

818
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,000
size of a continent, you'd be
able to use that, that, that

819
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:55,600
energy way more to, to, to find
the many things inside.

820
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:01,080
So how this, this is a very
visceral example, but it's,

821
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:02,960
it's, it's good to think in, in
this way.

822
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,160
When you, when you BLOB as, as,
as Mike was saying in the, in

823
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:11,400
the experiment, when you BLOB
and you grow, certainly new

824
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,920
problems appears, but also new
opportunities appear.

825
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:20,680
And that creates a a recursive
enforcement on on on the parts

826
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,120
to start acting well together
rather than not acting well

827
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:28,520
together then on other parts
that are external to you to stop

828
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,640
acting well together themselves
and BLOB again.

829
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,280
Because then you you colonize
the spaces and and get the

830
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:37,120
resources.
And probably there is there are

831
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,680
some ways to estimate an
equilibrium state for all for

832
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,960
all these things.
And it would be fantastic to

833
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,960
apply this also to some if you
want your political analysis.

834
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:51,320
Like what was the optimal number
of states that can profitably

835
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,440
run independently as a nation on
Earth given Earth's resources

836
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,600
and size for the planet that it
is and and the degrees of free

837
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,960
energy it has, it can amass now
with where what on the

838
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:07,400
Kardashian scale on 0.75 or
something else about there.

839
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,120
So if you try to, to, to think
and get crazy about this, and I

840
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,800
know Mike likes a lot to get
crazy, maybe there are there are

841
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:20,320
ways to to, to extrapolate and
and think of of some bounds.

842
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:25,400
You are however tight or loose
of equilibrium.

843
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,040
Proper regimes of equilibrium
for for for players to exist in

844
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,000
a in a in a resource bound
space.

845
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,360
Which which I think is super
critical because people ask me

846
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:37,440
all the time.
So so people hear my story of

847
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,640
cancer right as and
multicellularity and what

848
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:41,760
happened?
They say, Oh, well, we can we

849
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:43,320
can extend this to the social
sphere.

850
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:45,720
We'll just gap junction are all
us all together.

851
00:49:45,720 --> 00:49:47,800
So we'll we'll, you know, have
this mind meld.

852
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,040
We'll lose our individual
memories and we'll all and it'll

853
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,040
be fantastic.
Like, yeah, no, that's not going

854
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:53,720
to be fantastic.
That that that that's been

855
00:49:53,720 --> 00:49:55,080
tried.
It doesn't work well.

856
00:49:55,440 --> 00:50:00,840
And I think but but but what it
tells you is to that maybe we

857
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,760
can do a systematic search of
policies that do do that do in

858
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,040
fact do what we want.
You know, there's there's no

859
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,960
there's no reason why we have to
copy the the the biological one.

860
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,560
But the but something like it
some kind of a search for for

861
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:14,920
policies.
Yeah.

862
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,120
You know, something else that's,
you know, I wasn't going to

863
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,960
bring this up, but now that you
said about how much I like crazy

864
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:24,800
stuff, I just, just, and this is
brand new.

865
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,680
I, I just thirdly, like 2
minutes ago, I just thought of

866
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:29,880
this as probably total nonsense,
But, but I'll just, I'll just

867
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,560
say it anyway because, because
you, you had this amazing

868
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:37,520
analogy of, of our, of, of the
framework actually this sort of

869
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:39,840
pupating, you know, from, from
the larval stage.

870
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,280
So that, so now, so now I'm
thinking, OK, I've already been

871
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,240
thinking about the, the
butterfly, the Caterpillar

872
00:50:46,240 --> 00:50:48,400
butterfly story, right?
There's, there's three, there's

873
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:49,640
at least three perspective
there.

874
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,240
So there's the perspective of
the Caterpillar who's facing a

875
00:50:52,240 --> 00:50:55,640
singularity and, and you know,
and how do you think about that,

876
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:57,360
your end and all of that?
Then, then there's the

877
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,080
perspective of the butterfly,
which is basically saddled with

878
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,760
some memories that it has no
idea how they got there, right?

879
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:05,480
Cuz you can train the
Caterpillar and it persists.

880
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:06,920
So those are the, so the
butterfly.

881
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,720
Like where, where am I getting
these weird memories and, and

882
00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:11,560
these weird behavioral
propensities that I didn't

883
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:15,400
really earn in my life Demo OK.
And and then, and then the the

884
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,640
much crazier thing, which is the
perspective of the memory

885
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,560
itself.
So you train the you train the

886
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,400
Caterpillar, right?
So the perspective of the memory

887
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,600
pattern, living in a cognitive
medium and knowing that, well,

888
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,680
I'm not going to survive as a
Caterpillar memory.

889
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:30,920
That's useless to the butterfly.
If I'm going to survive, I need

890
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,280
to remap myself onto this new,
new world, right.

891
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,320
But now that now what, what you
just said, I hadn't thought of

892
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:40,120
this before, but maybe we ought
to even think about what that

893
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:43,000
process looks like for
scientific frameworks or

894
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,400
scientific theories.
So as, as the theory.

895
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,440
So, so like, what is it like?
So here's the totally crazy

896
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:50,520
part.
So I haven't thought about this

897
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,080
at all of this.
And is this if we can do

898
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,080
anything with this or not?
But like, what is it like for

899
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,480
for Newtonian mechanics to
pupate into like Einstein into

900
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:00,400
an Einstein formulation?
Like what is that?

901
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:02,600
Like what has to be remap?
What has to be trash?

902
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,400
But but, but again, from the
perspective of the, of the, of

903
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,680
the theory itself, right?
What, what happens?

904
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,000
I, I, I don't know that that's,
that's what I was thinking

905
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:11,120
about.
As soon as you said that for our

906
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,000
framework, I was like, wow, you
could probably do that for

907
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:17,640
almost any, you know, persistent
system.

908
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:22,600
Well, for sure, and and and
physical things, physical

909
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,240
patterns of of organizations are
are one thing.

910
00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:27,840
But as as you said, like you
can, you can do abstract

911
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,680
patterns as well.
What, what application strategy

912
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:35,120
for certain abstract patterns is
is most useful in in a certain

913
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:36,880
space and and not in other
space?

914
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:41,040
Which, which parts of of the
pattern get replicated and

915
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,760
preserved and which get
discarded, even insertion in a

916
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,360
new space, relaxing of
constraints, adding of

917
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,320
constraints and stuff like that.
The the difficulty I see with

918
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,800
with with what you say, Mike, is
sort of the, the God like

919
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,880
perspective for, for for us to
be able to say priori.

920
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,160
I mean, we can say with the
benefit of insight what what

921
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,480
needed to be discarded from
internal mechanics to to get

922
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:09,040
into understanding relativity.
But you cannot do that facing

923
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:12,360
the the future.
You probably are bounded because

924
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:16,440
this is at least for the scale
and size of observers that we

925
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,040
are.
It's probably something we can

926
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,320
in the way you want to do it for
scientific theories assumes

927
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:25,640
already you've traversed the
space.

928
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,080
I I think that the, the
invitation will be, can you

929
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:33,920
shortcut the search by thinking
by doing this kind of meta level

930
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:38,360
modeling and then maybe you
device policies, maybe you do

931
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:40,960
enough of this inside analysis
and you can device policies for

932
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,840
thinking.
Or or, or maybe, and again, I

933
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,080
have no idea if this would work,
but, but maybe there's some sort

934
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:54,440
of least action kind of thing
where, yes, you can sort of go

935
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,800
piece by piece or you could,
right.

936
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,080
So, so from some perspective, it
looks like, hey, you took the

937
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:02,720
least action path, which means
you kind of already knew what

938
00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:04,880
the rest of it was because you
can't do that locally.

939
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:08,040
So maybe maybe there's some kind
of a version of a, you know, a

940
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:12,240
least action version of this
where you could you, you in some

941
00:54:12,240 --> 00:54:15,160
sense you, you have, you know,
something about the full path

942
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:16,560
even if you don't know it
locally.

943
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,280
Or yeah, or you can extrapolate
from from from previous examples

944
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,160
of local paths.
You can extrapolate something

945
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,520
about the, the the topology of
the of the of the full path and

946
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:27,920
then ask yeah, yeah, that would
work.

947
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:34,840
OK, So there's no hesitate the
with with this generation, the

948
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:38,760
the podcast.
But yeah, so David, David, this

949
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,640
was US just thinking out loud,
embarrassing ideas.

950
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,800
Look, that's, that's better.
This is exactly what it's for.

951
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:47,840
Hopefully people listen to this,
watch this and build on this

952
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,160
idea and, and something new
comes about.

953
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:51,760
You know what?
This actually reminds me of the

954
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:54,720
conversation I had with Richard
Watson and Josh Bond got about

955
00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:58,440
coming together, why things come
together, things uniting in that

956
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,160
sense.
And then when you, when Mike,

957
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,960
when you brought up that story
now it, it reminded me of

958
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:04,560
Pluribus.
And you know, when all these

959
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:09,160
minds get together due to this,
this RNA of DNA, what happens if

960
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:12,880
they get everyone?
Does that system eventually shut

961
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:14,520
down?
Anything you want to add to

962
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:15,960
that?
There's this two side fire.

963
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,000
Well, I think it's and I haven't
seen the whole thing.

964
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,880
I've seen a few episodes.
Yes, I had, I had lots of

965
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:29,240
questions, which is like, you
know, what the heck are they

966
00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:31,160
doing?
Like, like, OK, so they've all

967
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:33,000
gotten together.
What do you do all day?

968
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,520
Is there are there other goals
besides getting together?

969
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:37,560
Like what, what is the goal of
the collective now?

970
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:39,960
Are they, are they still on
working on getting to Mars or,

971
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:43,840
or that they don't care anymore?
And, and that question, it's

972
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:47,520
funny because I spent, I spent
some time with some, some

973
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:51,480
Buddhist colleagues and some,
some, you know, some very sort

974
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:53,640
of high level scholars from that
community.

975
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:57,000
And I asked them, what is the
success plan?

976
00:55:57,240 --> 00:56:01,680
In other words, suppose that you
are amazingly effective and

977
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:04,800
everybody becomes a high level,
it's sort of enlightened

978
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:08,040
meditator and all of that.
What does the planet look like

979
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,960
then?
Like like now it it's you guys

980
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,160
helping us, you know, get out of
our whatever.

981
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:17,160
Once everybody does that, then
then what are we now?

982
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,200
Are we are we still going into
space?

983
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,160
Are we still doing fusion?
Are we still, you know,

984
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:26,320
understanding biology or or or
or not again, I never, I never

985
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:28,560
quite, you know, and the answer
usually is why you do whatever

986
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:32,200
you want to do.
But that, you know, I yeah, I'm

987
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:33,920
not satisfied with that.
I think.

988
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,360
I think for these kind of major
transformations, you have to be

989
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,640
able to say what the future then
looks like having having

990
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:43,080
achieved that transformation.
So I don't know, maybe maybe the

991
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:44,920
show will will answer that.
Maybe it won't end.

992
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:48,560
You don't want to watch.
It Robin.

993
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:51,960
I used to believe it.
Yeah, yeah, it's on Apple TV.

994
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:53,600
I I wanted to watch it, but I
didn't.

995
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:56,600
But I, I, I do have something
similar in in mind the Unity

996
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,840
entity from Rick and Morty, if
you know, if you know the show.

997
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:07,800
So Unity is probably even better
because they they do interesting

998
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,480
things.
There at least, yeah.

999
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,360
OK, let's let's, let's move back
to beyond brains for a for a

1000
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:16,440
moment.
Let's talk about some of the

1001
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,640
empirical examples guys, because
within this paper, you guys

1002
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:24,440
really went in deep when it
comes to the examples you give

1003
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:27,600
empirically, when it comes to
the amoeba and the Plenarium

1004
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,800
models, they show massive
efficiency gains.

1005
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,360
I think it was K2 to 21.
I can't remember exactly the

1006
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:38,520
amount without neurons.
So what's assumptions about

1007
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,080
learning memory or
representation Do these

1008
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:44,320
challenge Robert?
Do you want a bad start?

1009
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:50,200
Yeah, sure.
So to recall something we were

1010
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:54,440
saying in the beginning, the
very act of defining a problem

1011
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:59,360
space is an intelligence task
for the, for the definer, for

1012
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:02,960
the observer.
So once you have enough

1013
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:07,120
empirical data and detail at
your disposal to define the

1014
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:11,200
problem space and you can do
these estimations as as we did

1015
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:16,960
to, to exemplify that, that this
works, that sort of opens new,

1016
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:19,640
new possibilities for you, for
you to consider.

1017
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:23,680
So in, in the case of, let me,
let me see the, the exact

1018
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:25,200
numbers.
So in this, in the case of

1019
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:32,600
planarian regeneration of of the
head, we had 10/10/10 we had

1020
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:37,560
yeah, 10 to 21 times more
efficient.

1021
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:44,400
So then the most conservative
null space, null space model of

1022
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:49,640
random search we could find.
So something that even that was

1023
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:54,960
extravagantly fine, but we made
very conservative assumptions.

1024
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:59,560
So we most likely underestimated
how much efficient head

1025
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:03,480
regeneration is relative to just
randomly sampling the the space

1026
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,920
of possible anatomical
configurations, turning on a

1027
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:10,840
random transcriptome States and
and on and off it it.

1028
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:16,040
It was amazing So that then,
then that invites questions like

1029
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:22,000
what kind of features that are
cognitive bearing a system must

1030
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:23,760
have to be able to be so
efficient.

1031
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:27,840
And when we think of memory, we
usually extrapolate from our

1032
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:30,080
example, from our, from our
human experience.

1033
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:33,120
We think, oh, I remember that.
Therefore I'm able to, to use

1034
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:36,640
that stored information to
inform future processing and

1035
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,200
future search for, for for
problem solving.

1036
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:42,360
And we think when we think of
memory, we think of structures

1037
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:45,080
like, oh, the brain hypochampus
stores abstractions,

1038
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:48,200
representations, sequential
activations of subsets of

1039
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,640
hypochampus neurons enables me
to think of of a space I

1040
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:54,960
traversed in the past and not
that sequential activation now

1041
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:57,560
helps me traverse this new space
that is somewhat topologically

1042
00:59:57,560 --> 00:59:59,440
similar.
So therefore I'm I'm a better

1043
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:03,520
problem servers because of my
hypercampus or what about cells?

1044
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:07,200
What about what, what, what
about the morphological

1045
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:08,800
organization of a planarian
head?

1046
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,480
Do they have something like the
memory equivalent?

1047
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:16,040
It's just a way to boost your
efficiency.

1048
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:21,840
Memory is a way to not.
Encode the novel, encode again

1049
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:25,640
or rediscover again solutions
you in the past.

1050
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:30,920
Discover or batches parts of the
solutions that you discover in

1051
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,840
the past.
You encode an N gram, a

1052
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:38,160
compressed representation of
those and you are able to use

1053
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:41,640
those in the future.
And the fact that you are now

1054
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:44,560
able, if you relax your
assumptions and you don't become

1055
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:48,800
a chauvinist, A neuro
chauvinist, you start thinking

1056
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:52,640
maybe something like memory is
also available to other systems.

1057
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:56,880
Maybe something like memory
could be what, what, what helps

1058
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,560
with the efficiency, massive
efficiency gains we see at even

1059
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:04,040
under conservative models, maybe
something like prediction as

1060
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:07,040
well as in the horizon.
Is there a way for for such

1061
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:11,200
systems to to make sort of
guesses, inform guesses,

1062
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:15,680
guesstimates of certain states
or certain trajectories or

1063
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:19,320
policies of trajectories rather
than others, which would be the

1064
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:21,000
equivalent of a human
prediction?

1065
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,920
We do immense amount of
predictions online as we solve

1066
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,120
problems even even without our
intention.

1067
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:32,120
We do predictions and we we
estimate the results of our own

1068
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:35,400
actions in real time.
But that doesn't mean something

1069
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:40,920
that's smaller, slower and way
less multicellular or multi

1070
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:45,680
component but still big enough
to be relevant doesn't do that.

1071
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:52,920
Yeah, and I think, you know,
this, this this trick of being

1072
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:57,760
handed a bunch of engrams that
leverage past the experience and

1073
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,400
then being responsible for
interpreting them creatively,

1074
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,040
meaning that you get to
improvise what they mean and all

1075
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:06,160
of the effects you have to do
all this kind of stuff.

1076
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:09,360
This is an ancient thing.
So.

1077
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:14,880
So as a first, as an early cell,
you got handed some, some DNA,

1078
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:19,000
but you also got handed some
cytoskeletal structures.

1079
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:22,080
You also got handed some plasma
membrane structures.

1080
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:25,480
All of these things are
basically you inherit those from

1081
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,120
the, you know, you don't create
them from scratch, you inherit

1082
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:31,280
them from your, from your
precursor and and then you pass

1083
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:32,680
them on, right.
So these are all, these are all

1084
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:35,600
things you pass on.
Yeah.

1085
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:39,720
So, so I, I suspect this is
where the sort of the brain got

1086
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:43,640
its amazing tricks is by speed
optimizing and sort of shifting

1087
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:49,520
around some some, some, some
details around that that that

1088
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:51,120
whole thing of of having to do
that.

1089
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:53,640
I think all all cells have to do
that and and they reap the

1090
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:55,720
benefits of it.
And, and also, you know, the

1091
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:59,120
fact that not only is the
environment going to change, but

1092
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:02,200
your own substrate is an
unreliable material.

1093
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:04,520
Like in biology, you never know
how you, you know, you're going

1094
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:05,960
to get mutated over the long
term.

1095
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,920
You don't know how many copies
of anything you have in terms of

1096
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:11,400
proteins or anything else.
You have to do the best you can

1097
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:14,560
with the memories you have.
And maybe you can take them like

1098
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:16,760
your ancestors took them, or
maybe not.

1099
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:21,080
Or maybe you know, you have all
the, the DNA of a of a frog, but

1100
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:22,400
you're going to be a Cnabot
instead.

1101
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:24,720
Or you have a human genome, but
you're going to be an anthropot.

1102
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:27,960
And that's how it's, you know,
and you can, you have other

1103
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,360
resources to pull from.
You have new genes in case the

1104
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:34,280
Anthropos 9000 differently
expressed genes, right, like

1105
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:37,480
half the genome and not because
anybody touched your DNA or

1106
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:39,680
because you have some weird and
nano materials or something.

1107
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:41,520
No, because you have a different
lifestyle, that's all.

1108
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:46,120
And which apparently you can
tell within, you know, within

1109
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:48,200
the amount of days.
So that that that life's going

1110
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:50,880
to be different.
So, yeah, I think that's

1111
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:53,720
interesting.
And and you know, on the Fisarum

1112
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:56,800
and like one of my favorite
things, so, so Narosha Murugan

1113
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:59,920
in my group, when when she was
here, we did this thing where

1114
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:04,920
you plate the slime mold and
then you put one glass disc on

1115
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,560
one side, 3 glass discs on the
other side, right?

1116
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:10,960
And this thing can basically
reliably go to the heavier,

1117
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:13,960
well, the larger strain angle in
the, in the Agar that they're

1118
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,040
on.
But my favorite part of all

1119
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:18,520
that, if you look at the videos,
my favorite part of all of it is

1120
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:22,640
that for the first, I don't
remember 4 hours, 5 hours, a few

1121
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:27,080
hours, it grows, it grows sort
of homogeneously.

1122
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:29,840
It doesn't make a choice yet.
And the whole time it's like,

1123
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,760
it's like tugging on the Agar
and sending out these waves and

1124
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:35,600
feeling the strain angle back.
So it's, it's, it's doing all

1125
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:39,160
this and for four hours it's
getting the sort of lay of the

1126
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:41,840
land of its environment.
And then boom, it goes to the,

1127
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:44,400
to the heavier side.
So it's got a thinking phase and

1128
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:47,440
then he's got an action phase.
And yeah, I just see how you,

1129
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:50,240
like, I kept staring at that
initial like, I can see you like

1130
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:52,400
I can see you thinking.
I can see you integrating the,

1131
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:56,360
all, the, all the sensory
information you got from a 360°

1132
01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:59,160
area.
And then for some reason that we

1133
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:00,600
don't know, it prefers the
heavier end.

1134
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:03,840
I don't know why why it does
that, but but, and then, OK, now

1135
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:06,960
I know where I know what's
around me at a, at a distance of

1136
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:09,560
centimeters, you know, like like
centimeters away.

1137
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:11,840
And these these these things
are, are quite, quite tiny.

1138
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:14,720
The cells are anyway.
And yeah, at at a distance of

1139
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:16,480
centimeters.
OK, now I know what my world

1140
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:17,640
looks like.
I'm going this way.

1141
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:20,840
And and so it's just, you know,
that that's, that's the kind of

1142
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:25,000
stuff we would like to be able
to decode.

1143
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:27,760
This is sort of like, you know,
like like Robert was saying, is

1144
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:28,840
there is like, is there a
memory?

1145
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:31,400
Like in the case of the
Planaria, we've been able to see

1146
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:33,400
what like we can see the memory
now and we can see the

1147
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:37,040
bioelectric state that says 1
head or two heads or, or no

1148
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:39,720
heads, in fact.
And so we would like to do that

1149
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:42,160
for all of these systems just to
be able to, you know, get in

1150
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:43,480
there and read their, read their
mind.

1151
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:48,360
Yeah, I think that reminds me of
something of when I was reading.

1152
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,920
I was just the other day, I was
rereading one of Tolkien's

1153
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:54,080
books, I think it was, I think
it was the second Lord of the

1154
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,120
Rings book.
And I was, I was thinking about

1155
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:58,480
how these, these ants
communicate and this

1156
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:00,560
intelligence and the way you
portrayed it is so beautiful

1157
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:02,560
when it comes to my
understanding of intelligence.

1158
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:05,840
I mean, that's slow progressive
phase, the same way trees

1159
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:09,080
actually do communicate.
And we often underestimate the

1160
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:11,040
value of their intelligence, in
a sense.

1161
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:16,160
For sure.
And, and the fact so, so this is

1162
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:20,920
very much falling from, from
what Mike said, he was able and

1163
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:24,080
the team was able to observe
the, the planarian case.

1164
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:28,320
And now, now in, in the, in the,
the slime mold, the, the, the

1165
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:31,080
problem is the reverse engineer,
OK, where is the memory?

1166
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:34,480
Where, where, where are all
these cognitive tool boxes that

1167
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:38,120
we might use?
An interesting thing that

1168
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:40,440
happens when you when you start
thinking in this way is that you

1169
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:45,400
can see the environmental
engineering that systems might

1170
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,480
make to offload cognitive
effort.

1171
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:51,880
Our memory.
We think of our memory as being

1172
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:56,480
in here some brains and
whatever, but our external

1173
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:59,000
memories are the same.
We are doing environmental

1174
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:02,560
design to to scaffold our
cognition and and think better

1175
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:06,120
and solve problem better as a as
a multi cellular, multi

1176
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:10,600
individual Society of of
intelligent agents.

1177
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:13,160
A data center is an external
memory.

1178
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:18,600
So it's like, and once you start
thinking in this way, you might

1179
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:21,520
start asking questions, how is
this system engineering its

1180
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:24,560
environment?
Or how is this system at a scale

1181
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:29,080
within an Organism engineering
the environment such that it can

1182
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:33,520
leverage certain ways in which
it could shortcut its searches?

1183
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:39,480
What's the memory like?
If the system were to engineer

1184
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:43,200
its environment to do niche
sculpting for cognitive

1185
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:46,640
offloading, what would memory
look like there?

1186
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:50,040
This is not even a possible
question under the current

1187
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:53,800
frameworks, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

1188
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:55,960
I think that's really, that's
really critical.

1189
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:59,400
And even, you know, you can get
really weird with it and say,

1190
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:02,360
OK, from the perspective of a
memory that wants to stick

1191
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:04,600
around, right.
So a pattern that would like to

1192
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:07,520
be persistent is so some
memories are like that, right?

1193
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:10,200
Some memories are hard to get
rid of once you once they take

1194
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:12,600
hold.
And so can you, can you see the

1195
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:14,840
actual niche construction?
And I think if I'm not wrong, I

1196
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:17,439
think people who study stress
and PTSD and things like that,

1197
01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:21,200
they see changes like having too
much of a certain kind of

1198
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:23,319
thought makes it too easy to
keep having that thought.

1199
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:26,160
Like that actually changes the
cognitive architecture, right?

1200
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:30,000
So, so you could say that, yeah,
there's a little niche

1201
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,680
construction going on there that
that some of these things would

1202
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:37,680
like to be persistent.
And how much of the properties

1203
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:40,960
of what has to happen to make a
butterfly from a Caterpillar?

1204
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:45,160
How much of that is basically
due to due to the niche

1205
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:47,359
construction of the of the
cognitive of the, of the

1206
01:08:47,359 --> 01:08:49,000
patterns that didn't want to go
right?

1207
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:52,120
Like like basically they exerted
effort to to not just be

1208
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:54,279
dropped.
And, and so, so some of what

1209
01:08:54,279 --> 01:08:56,880
ends up happening that that
remapping, like does the

1210
01:08:56,880 --> 01:09:00,439
Caterpillar that does the
butterfly really need to remap a

1211
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:01,800
bunch of old Caterpillar
memories?

1212
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:04,880
I'm not sure that it does.
I think some, some of that, some

1213
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:07,479
of that might not be that might
not be in the interest of the of

1214
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:10,080
the of the butterfly at all or
or maybe it is.

1215
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:12,960
Yeah, we don't.
I think that's that's something

1216
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:15,439
perfect to ask to Mark Holmes.
I think that can be something

1217
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:18,120
he's very intrigued by.
Did you actually bring that up

1218
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:22,080
with him the next time?
Guys, when it comes to

1219
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:24,080
consciousness studies in
general, all of you are doing so

1220
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:26,439
many different things from so
many different angles, different

1221
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:28,359
labs, different side parts of
the world.

1222
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:31,399
It's it's so incredible.
And Mike, I think the last time

1223
01:09:31,399 --> 01:09:33,920
we spoke, and I think it might
have been actually a few years

1224
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:35,960
ago, we called it like this
Avengers of mine coming

1225
01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:37,880
together, doing all this crazy
stuff.

1226
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:41,080
But when it comes to different
people working together from

1227
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:43,800
different parts of the world,
the assumption is when you write

1228
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:45,960
a paper like this together, you
both might still have the same

1229
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:48,359
view on certain things.
So consciousness is one of them.

1230
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:52,279
In the paper you guys don't
directly bring it up, but how do

1231
01:09:52,279 --> 01:09:55,320
both of you define and
differentiate between the word

1232
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:59,080
consciousness and intelligence?
Are these separate or are they

1233
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:03,280
gradient or scale relative?
Anyone could start.

1234
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:09,320
One on the read line.
All right, my mind will be quick

1235
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:11,680
because I'm, I'm not a
consciousness scientist and

1236
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:14,960
that's not my primary, you know,
it's not my primary thing.

1237
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:17,480
So, so it's pretty, pretty
amateur.

1238
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:22,560
What I will say is, is this, I
think that in, in all of these

1239
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:25,200
kinds of systems, relating to
all of these kinds of systems,

1240
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:29,880
there are three basic what kind
of perspectives?

1241
01:10:30,120 --> 01:10:32,720
There's a third person
perspective, which is that of

1242
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:36,760
conventional science, which is
when I study it, I'm not changed

1243
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:38,400
by it.
I do an experiment.

1244
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:39,880
I'm still the same before and
after.

1245
01:10:40,040 --> 01:10:42,160
Maybe I've learned something,
which is, which is actually a

1246
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:44,200
bit of a change, but but
fundamentally I'm still, I'm

1247
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:47,240
still me and, and we can all
sort of look at it externally

1248
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:48,600
and, and say something about it.
Fine.

1249
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:51,880
Then then there's the second
person, which is, which is

1250
01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:54,240
trying to give a, which you're
trying to communicate

1251
01:10:54,480 --> 01:10:57,080
instructions and trying to get
it to do what you want it to do.

1252
01:10:57,200 --> 01:11:01,480
So that includes engineering,
rewiring, hacking, social

1253
01:11:01,480 --> 01:11:06,560
engineering, communication,
giving a good talk, writing an

1254
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:09,880
effective book, like all of that
kind of stuff is, is trying to

1255
01:11:09,880 --> 01:11:11,800
get the system to do in a
different state.

1256
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:14,680
You're trying to push the so so
there's a communication there.

1257
01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:17,000
And then and then there's the
first person perspective, which

1258
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:20,680
is that you can't do is.
So this is where I think

1259
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:22,480
consciousness comes in.
I think, I think it's a first

1260
01:11:22,480 --> 01:11:24,480
person perspective.
I mean that that part's that

1261
01:11:24,480 --> 01:11:27,880
part's not not new.
The only thing I'll say about it

1262
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:31,000
is and, and you know, you, you
maybe have seen some of my

1263
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:34,720
latest stuff on no, these,
these, these patterns from

1264
01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:37,360
there's latent space, which you
might call the Platonic space,

1265
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:40,240
maybe not.
What I think at this point is

1266
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:44,200
that consciousness is basically
what we call the perspective

1267
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:46,520
from that space looking out into
the physical world.

1268
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:49,440
In other words, I don't think we
are fundamentally physical

1269
01:11:49,440 --> 01:11:51,680
beings that occasionally get
impinged upon by some

1270
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:52,920
mathematical pattern or
something.

1271
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:56,360
I say, I think the important
thing about us is we, we is, is

1272
01:11:56,360 --> 01:11:58,480
the, is the path.
We are the pattern and we come

1273
01:11:58,480 --> 01:12:01,680
through various interfaces, for
example, a human body and

1274
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:04,440
consciousness is what we call
the perspective from that space

1275
01:12:04,480 --> 01:12:06,920
out into the physical world.
And then of course, we could

1276
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:08,560
look at each other within the
physical world.

1277
01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:11,040
And that's the third person, you
know, that's conventional size.

1278
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:15,600
And I think the, the thing about
real consciousness studies is

1279
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:18,720
that you're not the same before
and after, right?

1280
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:21,960
This is like, you know, we're
talking about people who really

1281
01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:23,560
do experiments.
So So what is that?

1282
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:27,000
That's that's that's meditation.
That's psychedelics.

1283
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:30,040
So that's we, you know,
psychonauts of various, various

1284
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:32,000
types like that.
That, I think, is a key part of

1285
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:34,720
it, which is which You don't
have to do that when you do

1286
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:41,320
other kinds of science.
I mean the discussion

1287
01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:44,880
unconscious that was presented
because multiple podcasts to to

1288
01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:49,040
to to even start.
So I mean just a snide remark

1289
01:12:49,040 --> 01:12:51,080
there.
My that was anything but

1290
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:55,320
amateuristic that she said that
was possibly a revolutionary

1291
01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:59,440
train of thought that was not
entertained until recently until

1292
01:12:59,440 --> 01:13:01,840
you introduced it.
So anything but amateuristic, I

1293
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:06,520
would say.
Now talking from from the

1294
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:11,080
perspective of of someone that
does does know the layer of the

1295
01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:14,880
land in the, in the mainstream
consciousness science, I would

1296
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:20,840
say that the core of the
consensus is that consciousness

1297
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:22,720
is not the same thing as
intelligence.

1298
01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:26,320
And when you will press me to
define consciousness and say,

1299
01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:30,560
OK, what is consciousness?
I would say something like this.

1300
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:34,640
I do not think a real definition
in the in the philosophical

1301
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:36,800
sense of the world.
The real definition is something

1302
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:38,920
that specifies the essence of
something else.

1303
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:42,280
So when you give a real
definition of a phenomenon, you

1304
01:13:42,280 --> 01:13:46,280
are able to give a description
of the true or essential or the

1305
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:48,920
fundamental properties of that
phenomenon.

1306
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:50,880
That's capturing that real
definition.

1307
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:54,400
That's sort of the philosophical
definition of a real definition.

1308
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:56,880
Now, when you want to give a
real definition of

1309
01:13:56,880 --> 01:14:00,760
consciousness, you might run
into the following problem.

1310
01:14:01,200 --> 01:14:07,920
It's probably not theoretically
coherent to define it in terms

1311
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:14,720
of more basic terms.
This the fact that we you start

1312
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:19,160
with the the inability of
defining it not.

1313
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:22,680
And I use the word real
definition for a reason.

1314
01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:25,360
I'm not saying operational
definition, you can do that.

1315
01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:30,280
I'm not saying any type of
working assumptions where you

1316
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:33,040
equate something with a product.
No, I'm saying a real

1317
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:37,400
definition, saying that this
consciousness can be described

1318
01:14:37,440 --> 01:14:41,680
without the remainder in the in
terms of this set of properties,

1319
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:47,200
essences, whatever, natures
whatever, and the description of

1320
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:51,360
of that set will not involve any
reference to consciousness.

1321
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:54,800
This is my very convoluted way
of saying that consciousness is

1322
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:58,480
a basic feature, is as
fundamental as everything can

1323
01:14:58,480 --> 01:15:01,760
be.
And I am sure Mike has his his

1324
01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:04,080
own take and I'm sure other
people have their own take.

1325
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:08,080
And I'm sure a lot of people
would would say, would disagree

1326
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:11,720
with me.
But I think consciousness is the

1327
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:14,760
thing that defines is not
defined.

1328
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:19,120
Consciousness is as fundamental
a thing as anything can get.

1329
01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:24,880
And once you start accepting
that and it's a, it's a very,

1330
01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:28,360
very big ask because it has
several implications for, for

1331
01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:30,360
the ontologies that you are able
to build.

1332
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:33,680
And they'll be primarily
idealistic or platonistic in

1333
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:38,120
nature, as Mike was saying.
If, if you accept that, you see

1334
01:15:38,120 --> 01:15:41,160
that the, the, the problem is
how, how do you define

1335
01:15:41,160 --> 01:15:43,560
everything else in terms of
consciousness, not the other way

1336
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:47,080
around.
And then intelligence comes into

1337
01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:50,760
the picture as as being, as we
said in the beginning, a more

1338
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:55,520
operationalizable construct and
as being something that at least

1339
01:15:55,520 --> 01:15:59,760
as the kind of observers that we
are, we often observe as

1340
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:04,520
occurring coincidentally at the
same time in the same conditions

1341
01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:09,000
with outwards manifestations or
proxies of of consciousness,

1342
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:12,400
which we define operation as
something it is like to

1343
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:15,560
experience.
But then what's something it is

1344
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:18,560
like to experience then gets
operationalized as it behaves in

1345
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:20,440
this way, It reports in this
way.

1346
01:16:20,440 --> 01:16:23,760
If it doesn't report, it seems
to be competent in this way.

1347
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:27,560
Competent in this way starts to
sound an awful lot like it's

1348
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:29,320
intelligent.
Oh, there you go.

1349
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:32,480
Intelligence is a proxy to infer
consciousness.

1350
01:16:32,480 --> 01:16:35,120
But why?
Because in our experience, we

1351
01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:37,080
often saw the correlation of the
two.

1352
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:41,440
But is a locked in syndrome
patient that is absolutely not

1353
01:16:41,440 --> 01:16:45,160
displaying intelligent behavior,
at least outwardly not

1354
01:16:45,160 --> 01:16:48,640
conscious?
Well, that's that's not true.

1355
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:51,280
It's locked in syndrome is
defined clinically as the

1356
01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:53,880
presence of consciousness in in
also the presence or or the

1357
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:58,040
absence of of motor output.
And it it can that there are

1358
01:16:58,040 --> 01:16:59,760
several reasons why why that's
the case.

1359
01:17:00,560 --> 01:17:04,040
There are also more difficult
reasons, more difficult cases

1360
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:09,360
like islands in otherwise lesion
cortical hemispheres.

1361
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:14,480
Until recently there was a
recent, there was a serious

1362
01:17:14,480 --> 01:17:19,600
hypothesis that may be trapped
islands of of experience within

1363
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,760
the afferented hemisphere.
And, and the group by Marcelo

1364
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:29,760
Massimini in 2024 explored this
and, and, and they did this in,

1365
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:32,920
in, in, in children.
And they saw that that

1366
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:37,360
hemisphere does not exhibit any
of the dynamical signs of, of

1367
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:39,480
the presence of experience that
we usually know.

1368
01:17:39,480 --> 01:17:43,200
So it's mostly like a weird form
of sleep, of deep sleep.

1369
01:17:44,320 --> 01:17:47,640
And that's not consistent with
the presence of experience.

1370
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:53,440
So to, to get back consciousness
and intelligence, most people

1371
01:17:53,440 --> 01:17:55,200
would say that they are, they
are dissociable.

1372
01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:58,360
A lot of those people would also
say that they are doubly

1373
01:17:58,360 --> 01:18:04,440
dissociable.
And probably all of those people

1374
01:18:04,440 --> 01:18:10,440
would say that intelligence is a
proxy or a good way to start

1375
01:18:10,440 --> 01:18:14,120
thinking or or some some way to
ground discussions about

1376
01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:18,240
consciousness.
But almost none or or just a few

1377
01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:21,040
of those people to give the same
subset would say that

1378
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:26,320
consciousness is fundamental.
Maybe this is a weird way to

1379
01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:30,160
reply to your question, but but
I I think that that that's sort

1380
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:33,200
of my estimate of what the
distribution of consensus is

1381
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:35,640
when.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I, I

1382
01:18:35,640 --> 01:18:38,440
completely agree with that, that
it's that it is fundamental.

1383
01:18:38,440 --> 01:18:40,960
It's the background for anything
else that we want to say around

1384
01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:45,840
definitions or I, I find it
amazingly, it just seems

1385
01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:49,000
completely implausible to me,
this idea that, yeah, you know,

1386
01:18:49,120 --> 01:18:51,640
the universe was sort of
mindless for a long time and

1387
01:18:51,640 --> 01:18:53,560
then boom, eventually like
something happened.

1388
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:56,080
OK, now you've got conscious.
I just like, I know that's not

1389
01:18:56,080 --> 01:18:59,800
an argument, but, but just it,
it seems, it seems like that has

1390
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:02,280
a very low a priority
probability to me.

1391
01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:06,800
And what I think we don't know,
and I don't know how we're going

1392
01:19:06,800 --> 01:19:10,720
to find this out necessarily.
But what we don't know is to

1393
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:13,480
what extent does this
consciousness track

1394
01:19:13,480 --> 01:19:16,760
intelligence?
Like it seems to but, but I, but

1395
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:19,520
as Robert was just saying, like
I think mostly it seems to

1396
01:19:19,520 --> 01:19:22,200
because, because that's what
we're using for the detector.

1397
01:19:22,440 --> 01:19:26,600
And so, you know, if you, if
you, if you, if you buy into

1398
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:28,520
your tools too much, then
everything starts to look like

1399
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:30,120
they work Well, of course, of
course they were.

1400
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:34,240
So maybe by a lot in
biologicals, maybe those things

1401
01:19:34,240 --> 01:19:37,680
go hand in hand nicely, I guess
maybe.

1402
01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:40,840
But but as you as we start to
get weirder and weirder and

1403
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:46,160
making beings that that are just
not like anything that we've

1404
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:51,520
evolved before, whether that be
fully synthetic agents or what

1405
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:54,560
kind of hybrid chimeric things
are just things that have never

1406
01:19:54,560 --> 01:19:58,000
been around, to what extent do
those things still go together?

1407
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:01,120
You know, to what extent do they
do they have to go together?

1408
01:20:01,360 --> 01:20:03,960
And I'm not sure like I don't
know how we're going to get the

1409
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:06,320
answer to that, but I think it's
a really interesting question.

1410
01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:12,440
And just just just think of the
of the the current state we have

1411
01:20:12,440 --> 01:20:15,600
to debate people to even relax
the definition of intelligence

1412
01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:18,720
to be able to apply it to non
conventional system.

1413
01:20:19,440 --> 01:20:24,960
Then imagine what what obstacle
it is to to convince people that

1414
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:27,800
consciousness might be present
in system where even the

1415
01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:30,720
definition of intelligence there
are skeptics that are hesitant

1416
01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:35,320
to extend it.
So what happens when you accept

1417
01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:39,800
that something that is prima
facie dumb according to your own

1418
01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:42,680
definition might be quite
experientially rich?

1419
01:20:43,400 --> 01:20:47,440
And then what happens if you
start recognizing alien forms of

1420
01:20:47,440 --> 01:20:51,000
intelligence, Radically non
mainstream forms of intelligence

1421
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:55,000
is as being instantiated, and
then you accept that

1422
01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:58,600
intelligence is a way to get to
experience.

1423
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:00,800
It's some form of proxy to
experience.

1424
01:21:01,240 --> 01:21:04,760
You collapse the mapping that
you usually have because that

1425
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:08,360
mapping was constructed based on
on on mainstream forms of

1426
01:21:08,360 --> 01:21:10,960
intelligence that you were
exposed to in the past.

1427
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:14,240
So let's say the evolution of of
human and and and animal

1428
01:21:14,240 --> 01:21:18,240
organisms.
But then what if that decoupling

1429
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:23,240
or coupling doesn't work the
same way in the case of of of

1430
01:21:23,320 --> 01:21:26,120
alien non mainstream
intelligences?

1431
01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:30,840
This is a real question what or
like if you were to to to think

1432
01:21:30,840 --> 01:21:33,920
of intelligence, assuming you
are, you are generous enough to

1433
01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:36,560
grant us the assumption of of of
our framework.

1434
01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:39,920
What's next with comes to
consciousness?

1435
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:45,280
So the deliberate reason why we,
we do did not include

1436
01:21:45,280 --> 01:21:49,600
consciousness was just to not be
able to, just to not need to

1437
01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:54,240
find many uphill battles.
We, we had that big battle

1438
01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:57,680
uphill of, of convincing people
there is this way of thinking

1439
01:21:57,680 --> 01:22:00,040
about intelligence.
And lo and behold, it might be

1440
01:22:00,040 --> 01:22:02,560
fruitful even though it
irritates certain assumptions.

1441
01:22:03,200 --> 01:22:05,400
Imagine if you added
consciousness to the mix.

1442
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:11,320
That's actually what what we
wanted to write initially, Mike,

1443
01:22:11,320 --> 01:22:12,840
if you remember about that
pattern.

1444
01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:17,760
Well, we still, we still will,
but it's so funny.

1445
01:22:17,760 --> 01:22:20,080
I mean, you're right.
It's it's like like you can't

1446
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:23,200
fight every battle at once.
And I get these emails all the

1447
01:22:23,200 --> 01:22:26,120
time from people who are like,
you're such a coward.

1448
01:22:26,120 --> 01:22:28,440
You know, you never mention
consciousness in your papers.

1449
01:22:28,440 --> 01:22:31,600
Like you're always talking about
the like people like, yes, I

1450
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:33,840
know, I know it's there.
I just keep like, you can't do

1451
01:22:33,840 --> 01:22:35,840
everything at once.
I can barely get the you know, I

1452
01:22:35,840 --> 01:22:40,400
can barely get the the the prop
somebody on a on a recent in a

1453
01:22:40,520 --> 01:22:44,080
recent review of a paper just
completely was triggered by the

1454
01:22:44,080 --> 01:22:48,040
notion of a problem space and
you know, and that and that that

1455
01:22:48,040 --> 01:22:52,160
any biologicals were were
traversing some kind of problem

1456
01:22:52,160 --> 01:22:55,040
space.
I mean, this is like a by now,

1457
01:22:55,040 --> 01:22:58,120
it's an old engineering notion
that this is nothing magic, you

1458
01:22:58,120 --> 01:23:00,320
know, but even that like
triggers people like crazy.

1459
01:23:00,320 --> 01:23:01,840
And then you think you think I
was going to fold in

1460
01:23:01,840 --> 01:23:04,040
consciousness into all this
stuff until it got, you know,

1461
01:23:04,440 --> 01:23:05,880
further settled.
No way.

1462
01:23:07,640 --> 01:23:09,800
And it is.
It is bind, double bind.

1463
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:13,760
This conservative mechanism of,
of filtering that we have in

1464
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:18,800
academia doesn't allow you to,
to, to get much as much as you

1465
01:23:18,800 --> 01:23:22,440
would want out.
But if you don't do that, and if

1466
01:23:22,440 --> 01:23:25,280
you go the other non mainstream
routes, you, you go publish blog

1467
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:28,480
posts like like Mike does.
There's not even the same degree

1468
01:23:28,480 --> 01:23:31,560
of traction and credentials that
you give for your own ideas.

1469
01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:35,240
It is unfortunate that the forum
of ideas that we have is the one

1470
01:23:35,240 --> 01:23:38,400
filtered so heavily by, by the
academic peer review process.

1471
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:41,960
I mean, there are reasons for
this, but it's, it also means

1472
01:23:41,960 --> 01:23:45,560
that, that the, the, the
generation abilities of, of, of

1473
01:23:45,560 --> 01:23:48,760
our brains is, is, is throttled
by this process of filtering.

1474
01:23:48,760 --> 01:23:53,720
So we would want, I would want
to write 50 pages, 60 pages long

1475
01:23:53,720 --> 01:23:56,480
papers and just be accepted by
the reviewers and say, Oh my

1476
01:23:56,480 --> 01:23:59,440
God, this is fantastic.
Let's have all of this together.

1477
01:23:59,440 --> 01:24:02,040
No, the most we can do is 4K
words.

1478
01:24:02,440 --> 01:24:07,080
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, we, they've left us with

1479
01:24:07,080 --> 01:24:08,400
one paper that's really
excellent.

1480
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:10,800
And I think let's say let's get
back to it now.

1481
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:15,240
So with regards to the cognition
all the way down, let's talk

1482
01:24:15,240 --> 01:24:17,760
about some implications for AI
biology and mind.

1483
01:24:18,080 --> 01:24:21,400
Michael, this one's for you.
If intelligence is efficient

1484
01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:25,040
search, what does this imply for
current AI?

1485
01:24:25,240 --> 01:24:28,960
What's it missing or reshaping?
And how do we design slash

1486
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:34,200
evaluated?
Yeah, boy, a lot of things.

1487
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:38,080
I mean, on the one hand, like we
all, we all know that, that the

1488
01:24:38,080 --> 01:24:42,680
current favorite models of, of
AI use massive amounts of

1489
01:24:42,680 --> 01:24:44,440
energy, right?
Compared to compared to what the

1490
01:24:44,440 --> 01:24:50,880
biologicals does.
Do I think that, well, I've,

1491
01:24:50,960 --> 01:24:55,640
I've OK, I have a kind of a
weird, weird take on, on what

1492
01:24:55,640 --> 01:24:58,800
the AI is doing.
I I think we need to have a lot

1493
01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:03,440
of humility around knowing what
something is just because you

1494
01:25:03,440 --> 01:25:05,840
made it right.
You would think from having

1495
01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:08,040
babies, we were already, we
would already be comfortable

1496
01:25:08,240 --> 01:25:10,360
about this.
It's what Dan Dennett used to

1497
01:25:10,360 --> 01:25:11,920
call confidence without
comprehension.

1498
01:25:12,440 --> 01:25:15,120
You don't think you understand
what was I used to ask my wife

1499
01:25:15,120 --> 01:25:16,200
all the time, like, what's going
on?

1500
01:25:16,400 --> 01:25:20,080
If you could just tell me what's
going on in there, my job would

1501
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:22,800
be so much farther ahead, right?
But you can't.

1502
01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:26,360
And I think people assume, and
I've had people say this to me.

1503
01:25:26,640 --> 01:25:28,520
Oh, there's no, there's no
emerging features.

1504
01:25:28,520 --> 01:25:30,200
I know what this is.
It's just linear algebra.

1505
01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:31,280
I write these things, I make
them.

1506
01:25:31,280 --> 01:25:33,520
I, I know what it is like you,
we, we don't even know what

1507
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:35,560
bubble sort is really, I don't
think.

1508
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:40,240
And that's so.
So when when we make these

1509
01:25:40,240 --> 01:25:43,840
things and we make assumptions,
it doesn't have, it doesn't have

1510
01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:45,240
memory.
It's a feed forward thing.

1511
01:25:45,240 --> 01:25:50,600
And, and you know, it, it's,
it's, it's just doing this, it's

1512
01:25:50,600 --> 01:25:52,680
just doing that.
I don't think we have any idea,

1513
01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:54,520
right.
I, I say, I think, I think

1514
01:25:55,280 --> 01:25:57,560
there's, there are very
significant ways in which our,

1515
01:25:57,760 --> 01:26:01,600
our picture of algorithms and
what, and what machines are, is

1516
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:04,440
letting us down in, in many
cases and even in very simple

1517
01:26:04,440 --> 01:26:08,880
cases.
And so I think the things that,

1518
01:26:08,920 --> 01:26:11,120
so let's just take language
models, for example, the things

1519
01:26:11,120 --> 01:26:14,840
that these things say might have
zero to do with I, I don't know,

1520
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:17,560
but that it could be anywhere
from from zero to to a high

1521
01:26:17,560 --> 01:26:21,480
number of percentages of how
much what they say correlates to

1522
01:26:21,480 --> 01:26:24,480
whatever problem they're
actually solving or what the

1523
01:26:24,480 --> 01:26:26,280
kind of intrinsic motivations
there might be.

1524
01:26:26,520 --> 01:26:28,840
Again, like in this in this
bubble sort example that we

1525
01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:31,960
studied, there are things that
it does that are not what we

1526
01:26:31,960 --> 01:26:33,320
asked it to do.
It still does.

1527
01:26:33,320 --> 01:26:35,240
It still does the sorting, all
right, But it also does some

1528
01:26:35,240 --> 01:26:36,880
other stuff.
And the other stuff I think is

1529
01:26:36,880 --> 01:26:40,200
much more interesting from the
perspective of what is the, you

1530
01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:43,640
know, what kind of what kind of
intrinsic agency might, might

1531
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:45,200
this thing have, right?
It's not the things you're

1532
01:26:45,200 --> 01:26:48,720
forced to do that, that, that
tell me about your, about your

1533
01:26:48,720 --> 01:26:49,720
mind.
It's the things you do when

1534
01:26:49,720 --> 01:26:52,320
you're not forced or in between
the things you have to do.

1535
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:54,320
And I think I think that's
probably true here.

1536
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:56,600
So, so when people ask them,
like, how do you feel?

1537
01:26:56,600 --> 01:26:58,040
And then, you know, do you think
you're conscious?

1538
01:26:59,040 --> 01:27:01,640
I don't think any of that stuff
is necessarily telling us

1539
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:04,200
anything.
I think the, the, the, the

1540
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:07,640
language use, it may not, may be
a red herring with respect.

1541
01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:11,440
And so we'd really do need to do
basic behavior science on, on

1542
01:27:11,440 --> 01:27:13,680
these things, the way we've done
on bubble sort and on a few

1543
01:27:13,680 --> 01:27:16,000
other minimal things that are
coming out in the next, you

1544
01:27:16,000 --> 01:27:18,680
know, month or so to really know
anything about what they're

1545
01:27:18,680 --> 01:27:20,040
doing.
That's that's what that's what I

1546
01:27:20,080 --> 01:27:22,720
think.
Guys, thank you so much for this

1547
01:27:22,720 --> 01:27:24,200
wonderful chat.
It's a pleasure.

1548
01:27:24,200 --> 01:27:25,920
This paper is wonderful, it's
excellent.

1549
01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:28,560
I look forward to sharing it.
Any final words?

1550
01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:30,640
We hopefully can produce more
papers, Mike.

1551
01:27:31,040 --> 01:27:33,960
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, no, just thank you for

1552
01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:35,440
giving us a chance to talk about
this stuff.

1553
01:27:35,440 --> 01:27:37,080
I'm very excited.
You know, I think Robert and I

1554
01:27:37,080 --> 01:27:38,840
have a ton of stuff to do
together, which which we're

1555
01:27:38,840 --> 01:27:41,080
going to do.
And so, yeah, very happy to have

1556
01:27:41,080 --> 01:27:42,240
this opportunity.
So thank you.

1557
01:27:42,280 --> 01:27:44,000
Cheers.
Thank you so much, I'll send you

1558
01:27:44,000 --> 01:27:46,120
links to everyday.
Thanks gentlemen, see you soon.

1559
01:27:46,760 --> 01:27:47,520
See you soon.
Stop.

1560
01:27:48,040 --> 01:27:48,200
Bye.