Michael Muthukrishna: What is a Theory of Everyone? Who We Are, How We Got Here & Where We're Going

1
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:12,880
Michael, you wrote a book and
it's called A Theory of

2
00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,360
Everyone, and that title is very
fascinating.

3
00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,000
I mean, everybody talks about A
Theory of Everything.

4
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,160
What inspires someone to write a
book about a Theory of Everyone?

5
00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,440
Yeah, so I mean the the title is
a play on, you know, a theory of

6
00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,680
everything from physics.
It's a very modest title.

7
00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,480
It it it, you know, it reveals
the scope of the book.

8
00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,320
Now so I mean the the one of the
clients in the book is that

9
00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,160
there are these moments that
happen in a science and it's the

10
00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:43,560
moment when you know a science
really becomes a science.

11
00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,400
So just quickly for listeners
who who who haven't heard the

12
00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,280
phrase before, a theory of
everything in physics is this.

13
00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,280
Ideal grand unifying theory that
connects all of the fundamental

14
00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,000
forces that you know, connect,
for example, the physics of the

15
00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,920
very vast general relativity
with the the physics of the

16
00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:03,440
extremely tiny, you know, the
quantum mechanics in one theory.

17
00:01:04,239 --> 00:01:08,160
But even before that, the story
of physics is a a story of.

18
00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:13,160
What was previously confusing
and not understandable, becoming

19
00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,600
understandable and slowly
connecting up and realizing that

20
00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,120
these things that we thought
were disconnected or actually

21
00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,280
part of the same phenomenon,
right.

22
00:01:21,960 --> 00:01:26,640
The way that waves behave in the
ocean is allows us to understand

23
00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,640
the way that sound waves also
behave.

24
00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,680
For example.
So, so you know, we the world,

25
00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,400
when you get these kinds of
theories, the world becomes more

26
00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,440
understandable and we can move
from science to technology,

27
00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:39,800
right?
Like we in physics, we used to

28
00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,640
think that Thor was banging on
his hammer like capricious gods

29
00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,040
were creating the weather.
Then, you know, Newton comes

30
00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,520
along and Maxwell comes along
and Einstein comes along and

31
00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,440
they write down equations that
like that's not what's going on.

32
00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,440
Here's how the world really
works still and that and that

33
00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,080
allows us to, you know, launch
a, launch a rocket, put a, put

34
00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,320
a, put a probe on a on an
asteroid, right.

35
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,680
That's what you get now
psychology and behavioral

36
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,360
science and the social world
isn't like physics.

37
00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,320
We don't have well behaved
systems.

38
00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:11,400
You know, I my my brother's a
physicist brother, my brother

39
00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:12,160
Dan.
And actually I was in a

40
00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,680
conversation with Dan that the
the title came out.

41
00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,040
But you know, I I often we joke
about like, who's studying the

42
00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,360
more fundamental questions.
And, you know, he's like, I work

43
00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,080
on, you know, the inflation of
the universe, beginning of it

44
00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:26,760
all.
And I'm like, that seems

45
00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,560
fundamental.
But what's more fundamental is

46
00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,960
why you even care about that
question, right?

47
00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,480
That's a question of behavior.
That's the really fundamental

48
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,920
question, right?
Our science isn't like that.

49
00:02:36,920 --> 00:02:40,560
When you're talking about people
or society or culture, you're

50
00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,280
talking about chaotic,
confusing, very difficult to

51
00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,160
understand systems, right.
It's not even like chemist, It's

52
00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:47,440
not even chemistry.
So chemist like.

53
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,560
Alchemy became chemistry again
when we developed this

54
00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,680
underlying theory, right?
So Newton, he's a great

55
00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,640
physicist.
He's not a stupid guy, but he's

56
00:02:55,640 --> 00:02:58,280
trying to turn lead into gold.
Why is he doing that?

57
00:02:58,280 --> 00:02:59,960
He doesn't have the periodic
table yet.

58
00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:02,920
He doesn't know that the world
is made out of elements and that

59
00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:07,040
they are, you know, recombining
in particular ways by particular

60
00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:08,360
rules.
Once you know that, once you

61
00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,120
have the periodic table, that's
when alchemy becomes chemistry.

62
00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,240
But it's still a relatively well
behaved system.

63
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,600
Our world, the human social
world, is like biology.

64
00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,360
But biology went similar
revolution, right?

65
00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,160
Like we didn't understand why,
you know, the Peacock has this

66
00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,640
beautiful, elaborate tail and
the peahen is this drab brown.

67
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,520
And we didn't understand why.
You know, snakes lay eggs and

68
00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,240
also birds lay eggs.
But you know, humans and other

69
00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,560
mammals have live birds.
It's all chaotic and confusing.

70
00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,040
And then Darwin comes along,
right?

71
00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,400
And Wallace and later, you know,
synthesis, right?

72
00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,760
And we get this theory.
And it gets mathematicalized in

73
00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,240
the early 20th century, where it
becomes a formal theory that

74
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,280
makes nice predictions.
But it's a confusing it's the

75
00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,160
rules by which predators and
preys prey interact with each

76
00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,320
other.
It's the rules by which species

77
00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,040
evolve.
It's the rules by which there's

78
00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:02,400
competition within a group,
within your own body, you know,

79
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,280
within an ecosystem, and so on.
And those rules are important.

80
00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,120
So if you're an ecologist and
you want to understand an

81
00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,400
ecology?
If you just go into a forest and

82
00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,000
suddenly start measuring, you
know, things, you you wouldn't

83
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,920
understand it unless you
understood the way in which the

84
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,839
predators were related to the
prey and the energy pathways and

85
00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:23,920
the water pathways and the
carbon pathways and so on.

86
00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,560
So this happened in, you know,
the modern synthesis happens in

87
00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,320
the early 20th century where we
start formalized mathematically

88
00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,760
Darwinian evolution and we get
all of this, you know, important

89
00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,520
insight to that in the late
1980s.

90
00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:44,000
Two population geneticists at at
Stanford so Luigi Cabelli

91
00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:49,440
Schwarzer and Mark Feldman, and
a a physicist turned ecologist

92
00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,080
turned anthropologist Rob Boyd,
and an ecologist, Pete

93
00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,000
Richardson.
They start building on this

94
00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,640
framework in in the modern
Citizens and they ask an

95
00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,440
interesting question.
They say when will an animal

96
00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,360
begin to rely on social
information?

97
00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,680
Because we know that when
animals encounter a new

98
00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,960
environment, they have to
genetically adapt to that

99
00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,520
environment, right?
And otherwise they have to kind

100
00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,080
of learn, they have to do trial
and error learning and figure

101
00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:21,440
out how to survive in that
environment.

102
00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,480
But humans are doing something
different, right?

103
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,520
And we want to understand how it
is that humans seem to be

104
00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,200
socially learning from one
another.

105
00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,240
So I'll quickly kind of give you
the insight from some of those

106
00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:33,880
models.
So when the environment is very

107
00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,160
stable.
Then genes are a good

108
00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,280
adaptation.
So for example, dark skin,

109
00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,960
right?
It's it's very well matched to

110
00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,680
distance from the equator, while
because you want to have an

111
00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,720
optimal level of UV radiation,
enough to synthesize vitamin D

112
00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,760
in your skin, but not enough to
get skin cancer.

113
00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,640
And so, you know, that's a
genetic solution because, you

114
00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,040
know, on average there's weather
patterns, but on average, the

115
00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,440
amount of sunlight in the
equator is a lot more than it is

116
00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,600
in Norway, right, where you get
rid of your melanin.

117
00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,320
When the environment is very
unstable, you know when day the

118
00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:04,400
water is here, tomorrow is
there.

119
00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,400
Now the red berries are edible
and there's no red berries

120
00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:07,960
anymore, and now the blueberries
are edible.

121
00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,640
You can't solve that with genes.
You can't have genes that tell

122
00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,520
you what to eat.
You have to rely on individual

123
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,240
trial and error learning.
But in between, there's a zone,

124
00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,720
we could call it a Goldilocks
zone after Goldilocks and the

125
00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,720
three bears, this ideal zone
where your parents and

126
00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,920
grandparents have some knowledge
or they're paying attention to.

127
00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,000
So it's not just genes.
And it's not individual

128
00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,640
learning.
It's actually the zone where you

129
00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:31,600
start to rely on what other
animals do.

130
00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,680
So they write down these
equations and they say when you

131
00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,680
know, it matches generation
length and when you know,

132
00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,280
they're the kind of cyclical
nature where, you know, you can

133
00:06:40,280 --> 00:06:43,960
imagine, like cyclical drought
and grandma remembers, you know,

134
00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:45,480
so you haven't experienced A
drought.

135
00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:46,800
Your parents have an experience,
a drought.

136
00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,320
But Grandma remembers that when
she was a child, there was a

137
00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,440
drought and they went left to
the forest, to the mountain.

138
00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:52,800
Then she leaves her tribe to
safety.

139
00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,200
And you know, I was talking with
a with an anthropologist, Kim

140
00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,040
Hill and he was like, did you
take that story from one of my

141
00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:58,360
existences?
I was like, I don't think so.

142
00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:00,440
He's like it's, you know, it's
everywhere in the in the world

143
00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:01,160
period.
And you know in the

144
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:02,560
anthropological record.
And it's true.

145
00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:04,440
This is what happened.
So they write down these

146
00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,720
equations in the 1980s.
Nineteen 85 is one of the key

147
00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,600
books and everyone kind of is
interested in the in the 90s.

148
00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,960
But it's just like math, right?
Like it's a mathematical

149
00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:14,800
formulas, who cares and is
making these predictions.

150
00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:19,080
And in the late 90s, in the
early 2000s, you know, so let's

151
00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,680
say what 20 years ago?
We get ice core data which tells

152
00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:25,840
us what the weather patterns
were at the time of human

153
00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,240
evolution and what, low and
behold, what we find is high

154
00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,320
variability that would have
selected for individual

155
00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,400
learning.
And then this kind of Goldilocks

156
00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,040
zone of environmental
variability exactly when humans

157
00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,040
are when when culture takes off.
So now everybody's super excited

158
00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,200
in the early 90s and it leads to
this burst of activity where

159
00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,800
more people are like OK, well if
the do we really have theories

160
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:46,600
to predict human behaviour and
human evolution?

161
00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,480
Is that where we are?
Did we just extend biology into

162
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,000
the human and social world and
so that all this buzz of

163
00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,440
activity and and and the
theories start become

164
00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,840
predictive, right.
So you know one of the examples

165
00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,480
that I use in in one of my
papers I think is in the book as

166
00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,200
well is is conformity.
So in psychology since the

167
00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,080
1950s.
You know, Manash had these

168
00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,240
studies where he showed that
people would conform to what

169
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,600
other people did.
And then people, like,

170
00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,480
experimentally tried to figure
out when who conforms, when do

171
00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,240
they conform, you know, And they
spent like 50 years figuring

172
00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:21,440
this out.
And we had no insights.

173
00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,800
We had no insights about
anything generalizable because

174
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,720
you can't.
It's like the ecologist without

175
00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,760
evolutionary biology.
They're like they're measuring

176
00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:30,680
all the stuff and some of it's
replicating and some of it's

177
00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:32,000
not.
And there's no you have no

178
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,159
general theory to hang
everything you're learning on.

179
00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,159
But those models were making
predictions on conformity.

180
00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:38,760
They said something specific.
They said, look, it's going to

181
00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,000
be a sigmoidal curve.
What you're going to find is

182
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,960
that you're going to get more
conformity the more you have

183
00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,680
deviation from the average and
if there's more options than a

184
00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:49,480
smaller conformity.
So it's a very specific

185
00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,520
mathematical formula.
And when we looked because we

186
00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,640
never thought to look for a
sigmoidal curve low end, that is

187
00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,280
what conformity looks like.
And there's examples of this,

188
00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,120
you know, where it's like
suddenly we have these really

189
00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,320
powerful predictive models of
human behaviour and social

190
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,760
change, the way innovation
happens, what corruption is,

191
00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,800
what cooperation is.
And in the sciences, you know,

192
00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,480
there's there's, you know,
economists like Nathan Nunn, Tim

193
00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,440
Besley, you know, people who who
are known in the field who are

194
00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:15,920
starting to use this in their
own research.

195
00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:17,880
There's biologists like Kevin
Leyland.

196
00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,480
It's it's basically expanding
out into these other places.

197
00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,120
There are two Max Planck
institutes.

198
00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,840
Dedicated to to cultural,
evolutionary research, but the

199
00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,320
public don't know about it yet.
There are some amazing books,

200
00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,560
don't get me wrong.
So Rob Boyd wrote a book, A

201
00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,080
different Kind of Animal.
Joe Henrik has a book, The

202
00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,120
Secret of Our Success and The
Weirdest People in the World.

203
00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,440
So, you know, Pete Richardson
and Leslie Newson have a book, A

204
00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,240
Story of Us.
You know, all of these.

205
00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,240
But some of them are, you know,
they're very scientific books.

206
00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,080
And I I was like, you know, this
is great, but I want to build on

207
00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:47,920
that.
I want to tell.

208
00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,680
I want to show people and I want
to show people not by saying

209
00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,880
here's five different studies.
That show you, you know that

210
00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:56,560
this is what I'm saying is
correct and you just got to

211
00:09:56,560 --> 00:09:58,960
believe me, believe me, that no,
I want to show you in your

212
00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:00,640
everyday life.
I want to show you how your

213
00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:02,880
brain is working in a way that
you can test it.

214
00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,200
I want to show you how your
children learn, how you can be

215
00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,800
more attractive, clever, more
creative, more innovative.

216
00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:09,960
How you can build better
companies.

217
00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,040
And I want to show you, I want
to, I don't want to tell you.

218
00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,640
I want to show you you know
where you can, you can apply

219
00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,480
that and then I want to show
like take it for granted.

220
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,160
This is because I've shown you
lots of examples and shown you

221
00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:22,160
the research that backs up.
And now I want to show you what

222
00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,360
this means, that if you have a
periodic table, you can start to

223
00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,520
do chemistry.
You can stop doing alchemy,

224
00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,920
because there's a a lot of
alchemy in the human and social

225
00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,480
sciences, because not everybody
knows about this stuff yet.

226
00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,640
If we stop doing alchemy, we can
govern ourselves better.

227
00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,960
We can deal with inequality.
We can increase innovation,

228
00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,000
create a creative explosion.
Revamp the way that we educate

229
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,040
humans, because we now know that
human behavior is driven not

230
00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:48,640
just by hardware but by
software.

231
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,400
We can think about the problems
that South Africa faces.

232
00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,000
We can reframe that.
We have a framework for thinking

233
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,120
about those problems and
identifying what levers are

234
00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,320
actually at our disposal if we
want to solve these challenges.

235
00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:01,600
Yeah, I think if you.
Can do.

236
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,680
Chemistry you can build, you can
do technology.

237
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:05,680
So sorry to cut you off there
Michael.

238
00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:08,200
It's it's pretty amazing how
you, you, you take the story,

239
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,640
the story of human history and
then and it allows you to

240
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,920
predict and project forward so
well via this almost

241
00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,480
mathematical economical
approach.

242
00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,960
Because for a long time we
assume that biology and let's

243
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:26,760
say microbiology or studying
biology at its core would give

244
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,080
us these answers.
But it's it's so strange and

245
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:30,880
amazing how we've gone beyond
that.

246
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,560
Engineering now has the answers,
artificial intelligence and it's

247
00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:36,080
gone beyond the field of
biology.

248
00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,560
How do you feel that's played
out and why do you think that's

249
00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:40,520
happened?
Yeah.

250
00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,640
So you know the I I found
something new.

251
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,760
So I'm trained as an engineer
and I only, I only realized so

252
00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,280
I've met over the years
engineers who became scientists

253
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,600
and I was you know I, Joe, Joe
Henry, my advisor was was one of

254
00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,480
these people right.
He was an aerospace engineer.

255
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,840
And I realized there's something
about the way you have when you

256
00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,800
when you're an engineer, you
can't afford to only understand

257
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,280
one component in the system
because you have to think about

258
00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,760
how your component.
It connects with everything else

259
00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,160
you it's you're building you're
building a product and you so

260
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,400
you have to understand how your
little thing there you zoom in

261
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,640
connects, especially if you do
architecture, right.

262
00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,040
You have to be able to you know
like software architecture or

263
00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:20,960
the architecture of a system.
You need to be able to zoom in

264
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:22,440
and out.
You have to be zoom in and out

265
00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,800
see the big picture go back to
the small bit go back to the big

266
00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,400
bits and I see engineers who
turn into they all do this and

267
00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:28,760
they do it without ever thinking
about it.

268
00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:30,960
And anyway, the the, you know,
like it's the software, you can

269
00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,440
get this kind of training right?
And I think that's why it's it's

270
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,400
a lot of the time because a lot
of scientists no matter what

271
00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,640
their discipline are have a
they're they're looking at one

272
00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,000
thing.
You know it's like you know you

273
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,160
know the the the story of the
the blind man who encounter an

274
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,880
elephant you know so you got
some fields who are feeling this

275
00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:49,720
area.
You know they say like where one

276
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,640
field ends and another begins is
what you consider signal and to

277
00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,160
consider noise like what you
consider worth studying And the

278
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,800
rest is it's like I don't know
it's you know it's we can hold

279
00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,160
that constant.
You know, so the geneticists and

280
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,760
the economists and the political
scientists and, you know,

281
00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:04,800
biologists, they're all working
on these.

282
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:06,120
You know, it's like one's
grabbed the tail.

283
00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,480
It's like, I think this looks
like, you know, it looks like a

284
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,120
rope.
You know, someone else has got

285
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:11,880
the, got the trunk.
It's like, no, I think it's more

286
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:13,360
like a snake.
And, you know, the other one's

287
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,520
got the, you know, so it's a
wall, it's a tree trunk.

288
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,400
And it's only when you step back
that you see this tapestry, you

289
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,840
see how it's all connected to
it, how all these pieces.

290
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,480
And that's not the power, by the
way, of an overarching

291
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,520
theoretical framework.
It makes the confusing and

292
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:26,920
chaotic.
Less confusing.

293
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,480
So if you look at if you if you
if you look at my, my, my my my

294
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:31,840
CV.
Like if you look at my research

295
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,480
you know, I, I, I, I work work
on the evolution of religion.

296
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,280
I Co direct the database of
religious history.

297
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,760
I have a paper in nature ecology
and Evolution on the evolution

298
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,760
of brains of whales and
dolphins.

299
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,120
I have a common project on
octopus brain evolution.

300
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:47,800
Right.
And and life history.

301
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,000
You know, I work on corruption.
You know and and and people look

302
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,640
at this CV.
You know I I work on on

303
00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,000
behavioral science and cultural
evolution to be able to how to

304
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,200
measure this in diversity and
immigration and they look at

305
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,600
this they're like dolphins and
corruption like are you are you

306
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,880
looking is this like a fish
thing like what is happening and

307
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,800
and to them it's like these are
like these are separate lines of

308
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,880
research but if you have this
periodic table you realize those

309
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,160
are all they're part of the same
thing.

310
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,160
I can study brain evolution
because there's a common pattern

311
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:18,880
to it actually, and we can test
that pattern.

312
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,920
Against other taxa.
Same thing with octopuses.

313
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,680
And that same theory tells you
about what is happening when it

314
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,200
comes to corruption.
It's one scale of cooperation

315
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,320
undermining another, and it
tells you how to build a multi a

316
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:33,680
successful harmonious,
multicultural society.

317
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,680
Because you see in the math with
what the resources do to this

318
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,760
and how different groups either
fracture or come together.

319
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,480
And so all of these lines of
research that seem disconnected

320
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,080
only makes sense when you have
this.

321
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,600
But just to be clear, I didn't
create the theory of everyone.

322
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,040
I'm conveying it.
I'm conveying a vast body of

323
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,720
research that spans the
disciplines in a way that I hope

324
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,280
is accessible, readers.
Michael, at At 32, you were one

325
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,000
of the youngest tenured
professors at LSE London School

326
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,080
of Economics.
How does someone do something

327
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:02,320
like that?
That's pretty incredible.

328
00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,040
Yeah.
So I think this is like a

329
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,600
personality trait of mine.
Like, you know, I've, I've

330
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,040
always felt like, so when I was
when I was younger, you know, I

331
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,000
don't know how perfectly I want
this interview to be, but like,

332
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,600
you know, when I was younger, I
I was, I was, I was interested

333
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,760
in like big question, right?
Like I was always interested in

334
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:21,760
this.
It's kind of why I wanted to

335
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,880
study, you know, philosophy or
theology or physics or human

336
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,400
behavior, and I was interested
in.

337
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,200
I guess I would, you know, I was
like, what are the biggest

338
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:33,880
questions, like religion, for
example, right.

339
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,560
You know, I, I read the Quran.
You know, I read like, you know,

340
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,280
I looked at what the claims of
Hinduism were.

341
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:40,640
I I looked at the claims of
Christianity.

342
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,960
I was like, you know, the pies.
You know, it's like this is the

343
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:44,800
most important question.
One could, you know, you should

344
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,080
investigate what's on the table.
What do the Buddhists say?

345
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:48,120
You know, what is everybody
saying?

346
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,960
I want to understand this.
And part of my obsession was

347
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:53,160
like, we're all going to die one
day.

348
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:54,520
You realize, like it doesn't
matter.

349
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:56,920
Like you know, they say that the
king and the pawn, they both go

350
00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,440
back in the same box.
So what do you want to do when

351
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,720
you're on the chess board?
And so, you know, like for me,

352
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,280
like, you know, one of my
colleagues, Dolan, he studies

353
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:06,360
happiness.
He says, you know, there's

354
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,600
purpose and pleasure.
And you can, you can think of

355
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,800
these like some people have big
purpose, like think of a priest.

356
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,800
They don't care about pleasure.
Some people have big pleasure,

357
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:14,800
but they don't care about
purpose.

358
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:16,800
You know, think of, like people
who jump out of airplanes every

359
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,120
weekend, you know, and most of
us are somewhere pretty high on

360
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,160
purpose.
But I I was like, keen to just

361
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,120
like.
Push through and I try to pack

362
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:26,320
in.
There's a section in the book

363
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,520
about how my obsession with
efficiency and how to get the

364
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,360
most out of you know, the 24
hours we have each day, 8 hours

365
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,840
of when I dedicate to sleep.
You know, how do I, how do I

366
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,920
efficiently be a good spouse
Efficiently be a good parent.

367
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,760
Efficiently be a good.
You know, I run a consultancy.

368
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,480
How do I efficiently like be a
good academic.

369
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,960
And so I think I I'm able to
pack in more things than other

370
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,120
people.
I mean, how do you efficiently

371
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,160
relax is a big thing.
Obsessed with for a while, I

372
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,000
think very similar that regard.
Those questions, those bigger

373
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:58,360
questions.
That's basically what this

374
00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,160
podcast is all about.
Understanding the fundamental

375
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,040
nature of reality.
What is reality?

376
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,920
What is consciousness?
What is the mind You questions?

377
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,400
It was the same because I read
the Quran, I read the Bible, I

378
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,040
read the Bhagavad Gita and I I
consider myself agnostic about

379
00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,520
the nature of reality but very
much atheist in my belief in

380
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,240
God.
What What conclusions did you

381
00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,960
draw and where did I?
I mean, we we can go personal,

382
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,119
but this will slowly go back
into the theory of everyone, I

383
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,720
mean.
No, no, no one ever asks me

384
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,200
that.
So I you don't say that I am an

385
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,000
agnostic theist, actually.
So yeah.

386
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,800
So I I I'm, I'm agnostic because
who the hell knows, right?

387
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,400
Like with the reality of the
world.

388
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,000
There are greater things in you
know, than in your philosophy's

389
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,320
ratio.
But you know, I would say that

390
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,480
like a a, a part of me like I
hold like as any good scientist

391
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,200
does, I hold like different
versions of the reality.

392
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,560
It is entirely possible that the
world is on purposed accidental

393
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,760
and we create our own meaning as
we, you know, however we see

394
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:56,320
fit.
But I think you can also

395
00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,360
construct a.
You can construct a best that

396
00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:02,800
you can do, I think.
Maybe this should be the next

397
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:04,440
book you know.
The best that you can do is

398
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:09,520
construct A consistent model of
reality that is consistent with

399
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,560
some of the claims of some of
the religions.

400
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,840
So religions are making
different kinds of kinds.

401
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,200
So if you want, if your religion
wants to claim that Once Upon a

402
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,160
time something happened where
the the great simulator in the

403
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,400
sky, you know, the computer
scientists who coded the

404
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:29,480
universe or you know, humanity,
you know, or life at the later

405
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,320
stage or the universe itself,
something, whatever, interferes

406
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,160
with the world in specific ways
that we can't understand because

407
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:39,040
you know, 5 senses and whatever,
that's OK actually, right?

408
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:40,840
But if you're saying this is
happening every day.

409
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,880
And that, you know, I should be
able to see that, you know, then

410
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,280
I can check.
You know, if you make historical

411
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,960
claims that you know we have no
evidence for, it's like, OK,

412
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,000
maybe, you know, probably not if
you're making historical claims

413
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:54,800
that we can say something about,
you know, maybe.

414
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,880
So I think you you can.
Whatever your belief systems

415
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,880
are, I think each person in the
modern world ought to, if you

416
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,760
want to hold a religious belief,
at least look to see if it you

417
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,400
can construct something that is
consistent.

418
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,400
And then it can, it can be a
working hypothesis and I think

419
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,520
we a little bit of humility that
it the realities of the world

420
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,360
are if this was the 19th century
or the 18th century or the 17th

421
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:20,040
century, think about how much
more we now understand about the

422
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,600
nature of reality, right.
So I think, you know, I think of

423
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,880
science as a a long, slow prayer
to a creator who may or may not

424
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:33,080
exist, you know, in a desire to
understand our world in a in a

425
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,760
richer way.
That may reveal or not reveal,

426
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:38,960
you know, it's it's it's true
nature.

427
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:41,560
If there is anything, you know,
a creator or not.

428
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:45,040
And in the meantime, you know,
we can at least think about how

429
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,120
our actions affect things at a
systems level.

430
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,240
You know, I think you know, in
the book I talk about higher

431
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,600
scales of cooperation working
together at a greater scale as

432
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,600
being an aspiration that is both
a secular aspiration and one

433
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,920
that lines up with the of the
major world religions.

434
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,280
Yes, yes, it's, it's amazing how
it's almost ironic because

435
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,520
you're you're talking about,
well, prior to this, you're

436
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,560
talking about this ability to
take a step back and look at the

437
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,040
bigger picture.
I mean, when I work as a doctor,

438
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,400
I try and obviously when you,
you look at a patient, you don't

439
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,040
just look at the one word.
You're trying to consider

440
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,440
everything within this picture.
We often try and incorporate A

441
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,040
multidisciplinary approach to
engage with this patient.

442
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,920
But it's funny how as a species,
human beings, we're

443
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,840
simultaneously good at doing
this, and yet we're still so bad

444
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,280
at this.
Why is this?

445
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,160
Why is this a thing?
Yeah.

446
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,600
So I mean you know we we the the
story of our, so the you know

447
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,400
the story of our species is that
a lot of what's going on in to

448
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,680
understand humans is in our
software not in our hardware.

449
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:44,200
So it's true, we have very large
brains.

450
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,960
But those brains got very large
because they had to manage a

451
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,400
growing amount of information
that was evolving alongside us,

452
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,560
right?
So to give you a quick example

453
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,280
of this, you know we require
cooked food in order to survive,

454
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,200
but we need cooking to pre
digest foods.

455
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,960
We have our jaws have been too
short, our guts have become too

456
00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:01,880
short, sorry our jaws have
become too weak and our guts

457
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,400
have become too short to to deal
with anything other than cooked

458
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,080
food.
If you're a raw foodist, you got

459
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,160
to eat copious amounts and take
lots of supplements.

460
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:09,280
It's not you can't survive,
really.

461
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,960
But we don't have genes for for
cooking or even for fire, right.

462
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,520
So that means we have to we we
are expecting an environment

463
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,360
which has culturally transmitted
information beyond our ability

464
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:25,920
to recreate many societies to
lose fire and can hold the coal,

465
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,400
the sacred coal you know and and
build fires from that because

466
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,560
it's hard to make lighting a
fire and that's just fire,

467
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,640
right.
We do so much that is that is in

468
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,400
our software.
So in the same way if you want

469
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,440
to understand like.
Pivot table cell or you want to

470
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,120
understand you know the way that
prompt the prompts affect

471
00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:44,400
ChatGPT you don't look in the
CPU or the GPU.

472
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:49,000
You look at the software like
most what we do like so numeracy

473
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:53,560
like societies count 123 many.
Our ancestors count of 123 many.

474
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,280
Eventually you use fingers or
body parts or stones and you get

475
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,800
a model and you can represent
numbers natural numbers.

476
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,760
But zero you know as you know it
took centuries to create, right?

477
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,040
It emerges in India and ten.
I mean, can't you?

478
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,760
Or geeky unnecessary.
I mean, there's no point. 10 is

479
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,120
a weird number.
I hate it.

480
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:11,200
I wish we had, you know, 8
fingers and we had 16.

481
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,000
I could map it back to binary,
you know, and went on a number

482
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,920
line in the 17th and 18th
century.

483
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:17,560
Then negative numbers became
obvious.

484
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,840
You know, I have this quote from
Francis Meseres where he's like,

485
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,880
you know, negative numbers, dark
in the very fabric of reality.

486
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,440
He's like really upset with
them, you know, so, so anyway,

487
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,200
so the the, the knowledge begins
to grow.

488
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,760
And we keep up with it in lots
of ways.

489
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,800
We grow our brains to the point
where they're difficult to

490
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,400
birth.
Like you, you might think that

491
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,000
birthing is natural.
It's, it's very difficult for

492
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,240
human mothers, right?
Like, it's painful.

493
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,120
So it's like the curse of Eve.
You know, you ate from the tree

494
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:43,440
of knowledge.
Now you got a big brain.

495
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,240
It's dangerous for the mother.
It's dangerous for the child.

496
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,760
And even today, if you look at
the medical literature, right,

497
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:53,160
you know, I think this paper in
2015, what is predictive of

498
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,800
emergency cesareans and
instrumental births is head

499
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,680
size, not body size, head size.
You know, once you hit the 85th

500
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,200
percentile just kind of hockey
sticks up.

501
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:02,440
You still have, you still have a
selection.

502
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,000
You know you still have
selection on that.

503
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,360
You had enough variation to see
that.

504
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:06,880
Right.
So we didn't just do that what

505
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,080
did we do we we extended our
ability to learn.

506
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:12,760
So we, you know we all we we
were nicer to others.

507
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,240
We you know lost the sclera you
know so that we could see gaze

508
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,040
following.
We we we created what was called

509
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,720
theory of mind, the ability to
represent other minds in our own

510
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:21,560
mind.
Right.

511
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,200
So you know you you probably you
could you could think about what

512
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,560
your your spouse or your mother
or your father or you know or

513
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,360
your sister or brother like you
can imagine them in your head

514
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:30,440
and you know what they're going
to say.

515
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,120
You're simulating their minds.
You have that you know then we

516
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,640
we we also extended our life
sorry we extended our juvenile

517
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,440
period.
So we have very long childhoods

518
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,960
and we also have what we call I
call the cultural adolescence.

519
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,200
So when you the moment when you
can reproduce to when you

520
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,920
actually do has been getting
longer and longer.

521
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,560
Do you have kids, Evan?
No.

522
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,240
No, not yet.
No, but now think about when you

523
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:54,920
could have it.
She does.

524
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,800
She doesn't want kids.
But it's.

525
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,120
I don't know if I'm ready yet.
OK.

526
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,400
So that, you know, this is, this
is interesting, right.

527
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,840
So like now think about when you
could have had kids.

528
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,280
Yeah, right.
Like it was a long time ago, you

529
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:08,800
know, like when you could have
had kids like physically, right,

530
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,640
versus like so that that is
growing and growing.

531
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,240
Why?
Because you're right.

532
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,800
It requires more time to gather
that knowledge, build up your

533
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,040
career as what we call it to get
that house or whatever to do all

534
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,400
those things.
So that you can do that and it's

535
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,200
growing to the point where now
there's a new selection

536
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:25,760
pressure, not the ability to
give birth.

537
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,120
We've relaxed that selection
pressure actually thanks to

538
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:30,720
cesarean, but the ability to
give birth at a later age.

539
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,400
Now the other thing, the biggest
thing that we do is we divide it

540
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:35,760
up the knowledge.
Right.

541
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,840
We divided up the knowledge so
that, you know, I became a

542
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:41,600
specialist.
So if you're a hunter gatherer,

543
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,680
actually you do have some amount
of specialization.

544
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,280
Mostly you know how to do
everything.

545
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,040
You're just better at some
things than others, right?

546
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,360
There's imagine you have a 10
sized brain and there's 10

547
00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:51,480
things to do.
You can reach skill unit 1.

548
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,760
You know, maybe you're like half
skill unit here and one here,

549
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,200
but you're mostly the same.
But if your population is

550
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,920
bigger, right, and there's more
stuff actually to learn, then

551
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,520
you can you can specialize on
half the things.

552
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,920
You can use that 10 sized brain
to get to skill unit 2.

553
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,400
And as a society we are all
reach skill unit 2.

554
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,360
You know if you divided it into
10 and you just have to do one

555
00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:12,080
of the things you can reach
skill unit 10.

556
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,160
And if you the more you divide
the the the higher that we can

557
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:16,880
go.
But it means that we get super

558
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:18,840
smart at one thing and stupid at
everything else.

559
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:21,800
We don't realize the degree of
our ignorance, what's called the

560
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,040
illusion of explanatory depth.
And you can see this even, you

561
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,200
know, even today, right?
If you are a if you're a a

562
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,040
physician.
And you're working in a small

563
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:30,080
town.
You have to do a lot of

564
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,240
different medicine, actually,
because you're the one point of

565
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:33,960
call.
If you are a physician in New

566
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,560
York or any big city, London,
you can specialize on this tiny

567
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,520
part of renal system that you're
just that good at, you know,

568
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,360
operating on or whatever, right.
You can specialize and then, you

569
00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:45,840
know, nobody asks you, hey,
doctor, I got this boil on my

570
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,120
chest.
It's like I don't even remember

571
00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:50,040
how anyone deals with that.
You know, like it's not your,

572
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:51,560
your specialty anymore.
So that's what's happening,

573
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,480
what's what's going on here.
And that's why as a collective,

574
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,480
what I call the collective work,
yeah, it's I I think it's pretty

575
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,880
fascinating because when you
look at, you're absolutely right

576
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:02,600
about it.
My, my, my girlfriend, she's an

577
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,600
anesthesiology, A registrar, so
they call it a resident in in in

578
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,800
the States or or overseas.
But when she talks about

579
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,400
medicine, it's so different from
the way I talk about it as a

580
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,160
General practitioner who works
in mental health and general

581
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,600
practice.
And you can tell how quickly

582
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,120
she's forgetting a lot of the
basics and how I am of all the

583
00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:26,520
specific aspects of her work, so
that that specialization is very

584
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,920
core to to almost sharing
knowledge.

585
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:30,920
But I find this whole idea very
fascinating.

586
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,360
So it's it's basically like
we're splitting up all these

587
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:36,960
bits of information in reality
and sort of condensing it into

588
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,200
another layer of reality.
It's 'cause it's not written

589
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,080
technique.
This is not it's it's almost

590
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,160
verbal, it's commutative, It's
kind of layered out there.

591
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,760
How do we kind of where can we
store this?

592
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,160
Or do you think the Internet is
the next place for us to kind of

593
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,840
put all of this down and
document it for the future?

594
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:54,800
Yeah.
No, I mean, I think writing was

595
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,720
a major shift because, you know,
but even if you have writing,

596
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,760
there's a lot of what we call
tacit knowledge.

597
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:01,240
You know, things that are
unwritten.

598
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:02,280
Like you wouldn't think to
write.

599
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,920
It's hard to, you know, maybe if
we're now with recording things,

600
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,480
you know, you can get a higher
fidelity.

601
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,640
But writing is imperfect, right?
It's hard.

602
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,000
Like if if you, you can read the
textbook, you can look at my

603
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:14,640
reading list, you know, for my
course.

604
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,840
But if you listen to me talk,
explain it, you're going to get

605
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,480
much more out of that, right.
So where we really store the

606
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,160
knowledge is in each other's
heads.

607
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,480
Like you know we store the
knowledge split across many

608
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,080
heads and together we're able to
solve problems, right.

609
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:35,160
Like you know and and so a lot
of the, the richest new stuff

610
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,040
comes from a process of what I
call intellectual arbitrage.

611
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,000
You know, you take you, you take
something from one place that

612
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,480
works really well and you bring
it to your own discipline and

613
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,600
you work out how to do it like.
The same print like

614
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,920
interdisciplinary teams.
So I run the database of

615
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,240
religious history.
You know I Co direct this with

616
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:56,240
Ted Slingerland and and Willis
Monroe and I would say it's one

617
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,720
of the most successful humanity
science collaborations on the

618
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,080
planet.
But it's incredibly difficult

619
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,520
for us to get there right The
the historians were super

620
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,440
skeptical of anything scientists
want to do.

621
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:06,960
We weren't speaking the same
language.

622
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,480
You know, they felt we had this
progressive narrative and we

623
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,120
said that's only because you
know, you you have assumptions

624
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:14,520
about progress that we're not
imposing on your nose, like all

625
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,640
this kind of conflict.
That's just disciplines, right?

626
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,400
You can imagine within medicine
the kind of interdisciplinary,

627
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,360
you know, like, you know
different different disciplines

628
00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:26,120
talking, you know, and and when
you're in theatre, of course you

629
00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:28,400
have to, you're used to working
in those teams.

630
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,080
But it takes a bit of time to
get that.

631
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,080
This is also true in the world.
So culturally, you know, in my

632
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,480
earlier story, when most animals
encounter in your environment,

633
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,920
they genetically adapt.
We culturally adapted, which

634
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,040
means that in places around the
world people are running

635
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,680
different cultural software.
And just like with disciplines,

636
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,000
it's hard to communicate
sometimes.

637
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,920
That's what we're seeing today
because today, after the age of

638
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,680
mass migration in the, you know,
say 17th century, it is

639
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,120
accelerated.
We now live side by side with

640
00:28:58,120 --> 00:28:59,960
people from very different
places in the world.

641
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,640
And we have to navigate new ways
of working together.

642
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,240
And we, we, we are now tackling
problems across our planet, the

643
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,280
required coordination with
cultures and societies.

644
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,280
The Russians, the Chinese, you
know.

645
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,760
The Canadians whatever all of
these different societies that

646
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,280
think in very different ways and
have very different cultures.

647
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,480
So in my work, you know Hong
Kong for example, right, is

648
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,400
culturally we can measure this
is culturally halfway between

649
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,320
Britain and China.
So unsurprising.

650
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,000
Why there's a little bit of
conflict.

651
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,280
There's there will there might
be less conflict actually maybe

652
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:32,640
now because the Taiwan's
influence.

653
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,160
But if if China had taken Taiwan
earlier, there might have been

654
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,680
less conflict than what you know
than than what happens with Hong

655
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,720
Kong, actually.
Culturally, I mean, there's

656
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,600
other reasons for there to be
conflict politically, but

657
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,720
there's lots of other, you know,
examples of this, right, of

658
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,000
literally like very different
assumptions of what is viewing

659
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:51,320
the world.
You know, one of my favorite

660
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,520
examples from the book is
Americans smile a lot, right?

661
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,560
Like they smile a lot.
And I would say they're one of

662
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,680
the few cultures in the world.
That explicitly, like, they're

663
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,960
obsessed with emotion, right.
Like, you see it in the TV

664
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,360
shows.
You see it in the, you know,

665
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,160
it's like how you feeling, how
you know you can't talk about

666
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,320
your feelings.
You know, like, how did you make

667
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,360
that other person feel Like
emotions are a big thing.

668
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,040
Right.
And and I would say that one of

669
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,800
the few cultures of the way, you
know, a few students have said

670
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,520
this to me, they're like one of
the few cultures that label

671
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:19,920
what's happening.
You know, somebody will say

672
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,640
that's funny like the rest of
the world just laughs.

673
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,320
But America's like, that's
funny.

674
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,000
That made me sad, you know.
Oh, that's, you know, like

675
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,320
there's a labeling this guy.
It's super explicit.

676
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,000
Right.
And that is a feature of

677
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,880
societies that have had a long
run history of migration.

678
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,640
Because if you don't speak the
same language and you're not

679
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,400
culturally similar to other
people, you have no choice but

680
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,280
to find the common commutative
cues.

681
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,080
Emotion is one thing that we do
know is human universal.

682
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,120
But if your neighbours from you
know, from Greece and and and

683
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,360
you're from, I don't know,
Armenia, and actually let's pick

684
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,680
another place, you know, like
you get from Greece and you're

685
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:57,160
from Nigeria, you know, in order
to communicate you have to like

686
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,080
if if I'm sad, you need to know.
If I'm happy, you need to know

687
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:01,680
now.
If you're if you're Japan, you

688
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,040
don't need that.
Like you know from the context

689
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,360
you can guess at what another
Japanese person might feel same

690
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,160
with China or you can kind of
guess at what another Chinese

691
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:10,760
person might feel from the
context alone.

692
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,080
You don't need that.
You know Russia is another

693
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,600
example of this, right?
Like Russia has smile training

694
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:17,760
whenever they have like,
because.

695
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,800
Because you know when when
McDonald's came to Russia, you

696
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,080
know, after the fall of the
Soviet Union.

697
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,520
They, they had to, like, get the
McDonald's workers.

698
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,760
McDonald's was so keen.
They're like, you have to give

699
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,560
them the welcome McDonald's
smile because they're American,

700
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,760
right.
And And the workers were like,

701
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,960
no, in Russia, only crazy people
smile when there's no joke, you

702
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,280
know, it's like Russian joke,
you know, it's like and they're

703
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:40,320
like, no, no, no, you have to
smile.

704
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,880
And so they had to train the
customers and the employees and

705
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,880
be like, OK, this context, this
context, you know, this is what

706
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,600
happens.
And they're like, OK, we'll try.

707
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,320
It's awkward.
We'll try, you know.

708
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,800
And then you know, of course in
the recently you Google like the

709
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,360
stories, like they run it again.
It's like just smile because

710
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,920
other parts of the world with
long on histories of migration,

711
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,440
they feel like you know it's
important that you have to

712
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,040
express your emotions.
Yeah.

713
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,800
Anyway, even South Africa, I
mean you it's it's because of

714
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,360
the cultural diversity.
We often see that because it's

715
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,680
it's very clear when there's
someone from the United States

716
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,200
in an aeroplane or if we're
flying right you you can tell

717
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:15,600
the difference.
It's so palpable.

718
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,200
I mean when when we started this
conversation, you obviously grew

719
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,400
up you there was a point where
you you were in Botswana.

720
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,200
I mean, you can tell I'm from
South Africa.

721
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,600
There's so much about you.
Yeah, yeah.

722
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,280
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely,
absolutely.

723
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,360
It's very easy to tell where
someone's from.

724
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,080
Something I'm very fascinated
by, which I think you can give a

725
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,760
good answer to, is which animal
species other than humans do you

726
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,680
feel have done this sort of
successfully in a different way,

727
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,480
and why?
And how is this working in other

728
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,040
species?
Yeah, so we do, we do see

729
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,200
culture in other species, you
know, not not like.

730
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,880
So what we have is what we call
cumulative culture where it is

731
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,840
accumulated to the point where
not even the smartest among us

732
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,480
today, today could recreate the
world we live in, not even

733
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,440
smartest, right.
And it's just well beyond that.

734
00:32:58,440 --> 00:32:59,800
But other animals do have
culture.

735
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,760
So there's lots of examples of
this.

736
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,000
And and by the way, these other,
you know, true to the theory,

737
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,280
these other species also have
other features we expect to be

738
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,160
there when culture's there, like
grandmothers or older females.

739
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,520
But grandmothers are unusual
from an evolutionary

740
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:15,840
perspective.
Usually, after you've given

741
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,320
birth, don't hang around.
You're wasting resources.

742
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,800
The grandmothers are important.
They're the professors of the

743
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,360
past, you know, grandfathers do,
but they're the professors of

744
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:24,760
the past.
They're like the Wikipedias of

745
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,440
their time.
They're the scores of knowledge

746
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,920
far more than a young parent you
know possibly has, right?

747
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,760
And so a if you could Orca for
example.

748
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,040
Orca, like sort of killer
whales, misnamed because they're

749
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:44,640
actually dolphins, you know, you
know, they they have, they have

750
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,880
different languages, like ethnic
languages.

751
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:51,080
They have ethnic foods.
So some orca will only eat seal.

752
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,640
And when they see salmon,
they're like, that's disgusting,

753
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,200
you know, you know, And others
are like Salmon's seal, you

754
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,200
know, and so, you know, like,
and when they're in captivity,

755
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,680
it's like they might be starved
and you're like just eat the

756
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:03,840
salmon.
They're like, but it's

757
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:04,560
disgusting.
Yeah.

758
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:06,880
And then they might, finally.
Come around.

759
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,760
But they have ethnic foods and
they have you know they and they

760
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,320
have cultural transmission.
They teach other how to you know

761
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,040
beach themselves and come off.
And the present grandmothers

762
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,480
allows their sons and you know
and other members of the group

763
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,040
to survive better than than than
lack of presence.

764
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,320
Elephants too, right.
They have some cultural

765
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,480
transmission.
They have kind of, you know,

766
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,840
famously they have like led by
by a female.

767
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,639
You know, obviously cultural
transmission where they have

768
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:33,239
like the sponge, you know they
use leaves for sponges or

769
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,360
termite sticks or you know,
cracking nuts with a rock or

770
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,120
with a with a log.
You know, there's different

771
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:39,480
different traditions if you
like.

772
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,040
But again, you know, in all of
these species you find these

773
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,639
kind of common elements.
You know this like long you

774
00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:50,960
know, the the juvenile period,
the the presence of older

775
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,679
females, the, you know, the
reliance and social information

776
00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:56,560
and so on.
But they're not certainly not at

777
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,760
the level we are and they have
other challenges.

778
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,640
So I I suspect for humans, one
big shift that I described in

779
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,680
the book was bipedalism, opening
up a channel for communication

780
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,360
and the fact that we are
terrestrial, so we're on the

781
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,520
land, which means we can light a
fire, hard to light a fire

782
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,480
underwater, you know, so.
So I think we have an advantage

783
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,960
in that sense.
And and why bipedalism because

784
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,120
when you when you stand up, you
free your hands which do a

785
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,600
couple of things.
So one is that you can, you know

786
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,720
you can, you can carry tools
around with you so you can

787
00:35:27,720 --> 00:35:30,280
afford to spend more time
napping that stone because you

788
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:31,440
know you can carry it to the
next place.

789
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,200
Whereas if you're a quadrupedal
chimp or a gorilla or an

790
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,080
orangutan like, it's hard to
carry that rock.

791
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,120
So you know you don't want to
carry this big ass rock around,

792
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:40,360
right.
And so.

793
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:42,520
It does that.
The second thing that it does is

794
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,240
it creates another channel for
communication.

795
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:46,280
It's not just Italians.
I'm doing it right now, you

796
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,520
know, talking with my hands, you
know.

797
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:50,880
And so even though I'm on a
podcast and maybe some of the

798
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,920
listeners are, you know, just
listening to this, they're not.

799
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,320
They can't see me.
I'm still doing it just just so

800
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:56,920
you know, I'm using my hands,
right.

801
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,760
And So what that does is means
that I can supplement my

802
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,040
guttural utterances with hand
gestures, right?

803
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,840
Which opens up a new channel and
then you can get what's called a

804
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,440
baldwinian evolutionary process.
So this is, this means that when

805
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,280
you learn something that has
adaptive value, then genes that

806
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,080
help you learn it better can be
selected.

807
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,760
So if, for example,
communicating was important

808
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,280
because you have a lot to
communicate, how to light the

809
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,000
fire, how to nap the the stone,
then genes that help you do

810
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,080
that.
And so we had a lot of genetic

811
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:24,720
changes that enabled language
for us.

812
00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:27,440
So some people think like
language is the explanation for

813
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,280
humans.
It doesn't make any sense

814
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,840
because language is itself a
coordination problem.

815
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,200
Like, think about it.
If I was the only language in a

816
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,040
species that had no language,
they'd be like, what's the weird

817
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:39,960
sounds coming out of Michael?
They wouldn't understand.

818
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,160
You have to bootstrap it.
You have to get something

819
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,680
started, right?
And so you know when, when you

820
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,480
have, when you freeze your
hands, you can you can do this.

821
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:48,840
And so then you get all these
changes happened.

822
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,040
Some of those changes, by the
way, made us more susceptible to

823
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,760
choking.
I'm very proud of this line.

824
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,040
So I'm going to say very slowly
we were dying to speak to one

825
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,040
another.
You know, like, literally, like

826
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,600
changes that made us more
susceptible.

827
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,600
Death were selected because it
had this huge adaptive value.

828
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,520
And so that opens a massive
channel for communication and

829
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,000
allows you to have a bigger
cultural corpus, find that with

830
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,240
the big brain size, you know, to
the point where you just can't

831
00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:15,920
birth it anymore.
And yeah, all kinds of

832
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,440
possibilities.
I mean that's it's always

833
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,120
fascinating to me how evolution
sort of did these made some of

834
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,320
these decisions.
Well, I don't like saying made

835
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,000
some of these decisions, but
some certain things happened

836
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,160
over time that clearly would are
cont intuitive and almost don't

837
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,680
really make sense.
And it's kind of amazing how

838
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,520
took these risks in order to to
have this long term gain.

839
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,720
You see that as fundamental to
what makes us us at this point,

840
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:43,920
some of those.
Risks.

841
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:45,440
Yeah.
You know, absolutely.

842
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,240
And you know I think, I think
this these are, these are some

843
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:51,320
of the strongest bits of
evidence right.

844
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,760
For for for this theory of
everyone like for example the

845
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,600
the fire for example, right.
If you're going to give a

846
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,360
species.
Make a species unable to survive

847
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,800
without cultural information,
literally, 'cause you can't eat

848
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,600
things, you don't have the
proteins to process the poisons,

849
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,760
right?
Then, then that's a big that's a

850
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,840
pretty big risk.
And it reveals the importance of

851
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,040
that.
Like, if I were to drop, you

852
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,960
know, my my collaborator and and
former advisor Joe Henrik, you

853
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,720
know, he has this nice thought
experiment, he says.

854
00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:22,160
If I were to drop, you know, a
bunch of students into like the

855
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,600
SMART, the Harvard students, you
know, the LSE students, the

856
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,920
Oxford, Cambridge, whatever, you
drop these students into the

857
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,120
forest.
You know, maybe in like two or

858
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,400
three students, right?
And and I drop like two or three

859
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,960
chimps or even monkeys.
Money's on the monkeys, you

860
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,280
know, to survive.
You know, like humans go like

861
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,640
when humans are isolated from
their groups, bad things happen

862
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,880
and then they're stuck.
You know, our strength is in

863
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,480
being able to work together and
use this accumulated knowledge

864
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,360
to go well beyond we've ever
been able to go.

865
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,920
And I see over.
The over the misunderstanding of

866
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:04,440
what intelligence is holds back
a lot of the human and social

867
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,400
sciences.
You know sometimes what it takes

868
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,400
for a scientist to before it is
to let go of assumptions and

869
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,400
that's one that's holding like
it's kind of like when we

870
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,120
thought that the you know
obviously the Earth is flat I

871
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,120
can see it and the sun is
tracing this guy from east to

872
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,120
West.
Obviously I let go of that

873
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,720
assumption, or if I let go of
the the, you know, the circular

874
00:39:19,720 --> 00:39:22,400
orbits that I use with ellipses,
then I get a better model of the

875
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,360
solar system.
When you let go of this

876
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,920
assumption that human
intelligence is somehow innate,

877
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:31,280
inborn, you know, not cultural,
you get a better model of our

878
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,960
species.
When in talking of models and

879
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,640
trying to model human behaviour,
often think about this podcast

880
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,440
is dedicated to understanding
the human mind and consciousness

881
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,320
and trying to figure out whether
we have free will or not are

882
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,880
very fundamental questions.
How do you think of what a mind

883
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,320
is or what consciousness is?
Oh, do you even think about

884
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,880
that?
I got to be honest.

885
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,440
I got to be honest with you.
So I don't know what

886
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,360
consciousness is like.
I, you know, I don't even ask

887
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,640
the question because I live
like, so I I hung out.

888
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,960
I, you know, I used to hang out
with some folks who do like

889
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,400
integrated information theory
IIT.

890
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,880
You know, I was like, I mean,
OK, I literally, like, define

891
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,320
consciousness for me.
Like, what does that even mean?

892
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:17,680
You know after we do that then
we can study it.

893
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,640
So I don't know what it is you
know and free will.

894
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,040
I kind of I can kind of
understand what you mean by free

895
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,960
will and I think there's a
there's a space open like

896
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,480
there's enough unknowns that
there may be a possibility of

897
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,360
free will like the world is not
deterministic at the very least,

898
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,600
right.
But that doesn't that doesn't

899
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,520
mean it's obvious what free will
could possibly be.

900
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,600
Just because there's non
determinism doesn't mean it's

901
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,160
free, right?
I don't know.

902
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,720
I don't know the answer to that.
Now I I could say other things.

903
00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:46,400
So I would say that it seems to
us, it seems to me our minds

904
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,160
play simulations, right.
We we create we construct a

905
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,960
simulation of the world and
that's how there we so we are

906
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,800
not terminators you know so
we're not like rectangular

907
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:58,960
object handle that is a door.
You know that's not it.

908
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,600
I I expect door and if it's not
a door it's actually a window or

909
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,600
a painting then the dorsal
anterior cingulate cortex fires

910
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,840
off then I'm like simulation
broken.

911
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,000
Figure this out you know and I
think part of our simulation a

912
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:14,640
lot of processing is going on
beyond conscious awareness

913
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,320
right.
A lot of our actual thinking is

914
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,000
going on and and I you can take
advantage of this by the way I I

915
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,320
use my sleep time to to process
difficult problems by you know

916
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,280
reading about stuff before
trying to integrate information.

917
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,400
You can use that because a lot
of it's subconscious but what we

918
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,000
also have is a simulation of
ourselves right?

919
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,200
That seems to be something that
has been useful for humans at

920
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,640
least right.
Simulation, a model of you self

921
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,880
and I think consciousness might
be something along those lines

922
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:45,960
where it's like I have a
simulation to myself, I have you

923
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,680
know it needs updated from time
to time.

924
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,960
I updated based on what I
actually do.

925
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,920
You know I update based on how I
feel in particular moments and

926
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,200
but the truth is a lot of my
decision making comes after the

927
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,360
fact.
You know, it's like, you know,

928
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,760
the work on on moral intuitions,
you know, like you give people,

929
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,000
you know, Jonathan Haidt gives
people these, you know, these

930
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,240
disgusting stories.
And now people, it's like, is

931
00:42:08,240 --> 00:42:10,720
that moral?
Like, you know, guy has sex with

932
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,080
dead chicken, washes it so
there's no trace of his DNA on

933
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:15,920
it at all and then feeds it to
his guests.

934
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,480
Was that bad?
You know, you know, and people

935
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,320
are like, you know, like why?
Why was it bad?

936
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,440
You know, and that that's when
people realize it's it's a it's

937
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,160
an emotion, it's a God, it's
subconscious.

938
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,080
And then on top of that we layer
the rationality.

939
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,640
So I again, I think we can give
too much credence on our our

940
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,880
perception of ourselves and that
introspection that we ought to.

941
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,760
That that's become quite a theme
in in in neuroscience as well.

942
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,720
I mean using Bayesian predictive
processing and trying to figure

943
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,360
out how we we have these prior
credences and I mean we we think

944
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,520
something's going to happen and
then obviously you and I enter a

945
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,400
room if I expect to see a
lecturer and I don't, it'll be

946
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,560
quite a shock to me if you if
you expect to see a class full

947
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,000
of people that that's what
you'll see when you get in

948
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,680
there.
So it's kind of like, yeah,

949
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:03,800
yeah, yeah.
Do you think in a way that?

950
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,560
Like sort of limits this
experience and and limits how we

951
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:09,560
can project intelligence moving
forward.

952
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,280
Is the fact that we're almost
making these heuristic versions

953
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,520
of reality in our head?
Is the question making any

954
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,120
sense?
I mean kind, I mean I'll try and

955
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,480
answer it.
You know, look, what you need to

956
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,840
understand then is if you if you
buy what I just said that you

957
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:25,960
have a simulation, you got
these, you need to understand

958
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,040
how that software was written,
right?

959
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,280
And a lot of it is like socially
transmitted, right?

960
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,040
So there's this, there's this
dumb debate in psychology.

961
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,280
It goes on.
Are stereotypes true or not?

962
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,520
I'm like that's under defined
question like what do you mean?

963
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:44,720
You know, So you have to think
about where do stereotypes come

964
00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:47,760
from, like how do people acquire
this knowledge and if they're

965
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,000
requiring it from distributions
of their own experience, maybe

966
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,720
there's some truth to it, you
know, if they're requiring it

967
00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:55,520
socially.
Again, there might be some, but

968
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,880
maybe it's outdated.
And So what you find is that,

969
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,200
you know, the stereotypes of
people have more access to are

970
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,400
are tend to be a little bit
closer to truth than the

971
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,040
stereotypes that they have less
access to.

972
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,760
Like, you know, like your
stereotypes of the way, you

973
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,320
know, let's say you're living in
South Africa and your

974
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,200
stereotypes of Italians or
Spaniards or, you know, Germans

975
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,440
is probably less accurate than
your stereotypes of, you know,

976
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:18,360
Zulu or Hosa or something like
that.

977
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:22,040
You know, it's like I'm not all
Zulu, Hosa, you know, Afrikanas

978
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:23,680
or whatever are the same.
They're not.

979
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,000
They're not.
But if you looked at the

980
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,000
distributions, you might find
that and some of them are self

981
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:29,840
reinforcing by the way, you
know, people are aware of their

982
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:31,840
own stereotypes and they'll talk
about it.

983
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,440
You know, I was, I was in
Namibia, I was like you know, I

984
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,960
was at the, I was at the.
But I, you know, like I'm, I'm

985
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,480
here and I'm, I'm getting, I'm
getting some meat and I'm

986
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,400
listening to this lady talking
and she's, she's talking to a

987
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,720
friend and she's just like
everybody wants to say what

988
00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:47,920
their tribe is by the way, you
know everyone finds the need to

989
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,960
talk about their tribe And
explaining her behaviour, she's

990
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,480
like, you see my father is Zulu,
my mother is Hosa.

991
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,480
And that's why I'm like this,
you know, it's like it's like,

992
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,720
you know, for why we do it.
Yeah.

993
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:00,720
Yeah.
So.

994
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,320
So this is part of our software
and our expectations, right.

995
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:07,400
And they change over time.
And, you know, we and the skills

996
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:13,200
that we have delivered to us by
our education systems, by, you

997
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:14,760
know, there's a big part of the
book about schools.

998
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,160
Schools are outdated.
They are writing your software,

999
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:19,880
but they're writing your
software for an industrial world

1000
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,240
that doesn't exist anymore.
Like school with a factory model

1001
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,320
designed or, you know, became
compulsory at the industrial

1002
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,840
revolution to create factory
work as a factory model, create

1003
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:30,240
factory workers.
It doesn't make sense, the way

1004
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:31,600
to do it.
It's not equipped for the

1005
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,840
information economy, let alone
the AI economy, right?

1006
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,520
Like, you know, I tell the story
of, like, you know, I know

1007
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:39,200
you're a little younger than me,
but, you know, when I was in

1008
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,720
school that my teacher was like,
in middle school, they were

1009
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:43,960
like, you better learn how to do
mental math because you're not

1010
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,120
going to always carry a
calculator in your pocket.

1011
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,960
It's like, well, didn't foresee
the iPhone, did you?

1012
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,320
You know, I do have one with me
at all times.

1013
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,600
And so like what we should be
learning is how to integrate

1014
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,080
information, how to deal with
the world where information is

1015
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:01,120
at our literal fingertips, in
our pockets, on our desks, you

1016
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,680
know, and so that that it's a
different kind of software

1017
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:05,800
that's required.
It's pretty scary how at this

1018
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,960
point how Bionic would become
this move around without

1019
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,400
yourself and you feel like
you've literally left your arm

1020
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,720
behind.
It's it's it's almost like so

1021
00:46:13,720 --> 00:46:16,320
incorporated with technology at
this point it's impossible.

1022
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:22,440
Do you think that based on
evolutionary theory of game

1023
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,280
theory every sort of model we
have of human?

1024
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,440
That we we have currently today,
and that we can apply to human

1025
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:31,600
knowledge, that we can predict
with accuracy the way people

1026
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,640
would behave in certain
situations.

1027
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,760
Do you think we'd ever reach a
point of of of accurate

1028
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:38,560
prediction to almost the same
devil?

1029
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:41,720
Yeah, no, it's it's just like
biology, right?

1030
00:46:41,720 --> 00:46:43,080
Like we can't, we know the
rules.

1031
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:44,880
But that doesn't mean we can
predict the trajectory of

1032
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,760
species or predict, you know,
ecosystems.

1033
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,400
We can kind of manage them.
We kind of understand it.

1034
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,120
But that's we have to because
the other thing that we know is

1035
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,800
that there is no human nature
right there.

1036
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:58,600
There are some things that are
core because we're animals,

1037
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,200
right?
Like we we poop, we eat, we, you

1038
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,640
know, we, we mate and we have
children, you know, like this is

1039
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,440
the thing we all do, you know?
So that's true.

1040
00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:09,400
And there's certain fundamental
drivers, you know, but there's

1041
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,240
always exceptions.
So, you know, like we, we say

1042
00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:13,320
mating is a, is a is a
fundamental driver.

1043
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,280
But then you have celibate
priests, right?

1044
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,240
You have entire religions that
have gone extinct because they

1045
00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:19,760
didn't have children.
But you know that practice

1046
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,120
celibacy.
You know you, you can say status

1047
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,800
seeking is a is a human
universal because we're all in a

1048
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,440
main competition.
But it is suppressed in

1049
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,720
countries that pull, you know
pull down tall poppies, the tall

1050
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:33,840
poppy syndrome and among the
kung you know the Bushmen, you

1051
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,560
know the more egalitarian
societies among the Hadza as

1052
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,680
well, right?
Know why that emerges?

1053
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,320
Well, we think we know why.
We have a paper on how it

1054
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,520
emerges as a as a as a feature
of limited resources.

1055
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:51,360
You know, we we assume that
females are more are more picky

1056
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,320
when it comes to mating and
males compete over females.

1057
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:56,200
But that's mostly true in a
polygynous society.

1058
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,920
When you enforce monogamy, then,
then, then males also become

1059
00:47:59,920 --> 00:48:01,840
picky and females become
competitive, right.

1060
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,280
So there's a paper on in
monogamous societies, which is

1061
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:10,280
most of the West these days.
All of the West these days, you

1062
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,960
know, the, you see more
expenditure on, you know, hair,

1063
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:18,560
hair salons make up more, more,
you know, more effort put on

1064
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,160
social media in terms of tags
and stuff like that, like

1065
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,400
Instagram in places where
there's a big inequality between

1066
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,000
males like New York City, for
example.

1067
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,280
You know, not a lot of, you
know, not not a lot of females.

1068
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,840
You know, tons of males.
Sorry, other way around, you

1069
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:35,400
know, lots of females, not a lot
of males.

1070
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:37,960
So there's a massive competition
for those males.

1071
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,680
So the people are putting more
Now that's a feature of a of a

1072
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:44,200
constructed world monogamy you
know, like the ability to.

1073
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:46,680
So.
So what we can do is we know the

1074
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:51,040
rules by which humans work and
we can apply them to understand

1075
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,560
a particular situation.
Just like you take a periodic

1076
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,040
table or a Darwinian evolution,
or you bring those rules and you

1077
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,480
say, OK, what are the relevant
things here and how can I apply

1078
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,640
it to understand, predict and
change human behavior?

1079
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,840
That's the richness, I think
that you, you know, I I hope to

1080
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,640
see an explosion of in the next
in the couple of decades because

1081
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:10,480
as I say in the book, this is
probably the most important

1082
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,880
century in human history.
It's it's pretty fascinating to

1083
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:17,960
see how fast everything is just
changing at this point.

1084
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:22,400
This exponential rise in
technology, the fast-paced world

1085
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,480
we're living in.
Do you think it's?

1086
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,760
Going to reach a stage where
we'll rely on technology to a

1087
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,160
point where AI perhaps, I mean
this is obviously speculative,

1088
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,280
but do you think AI will reach a
level of intelligence that we

1089
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:40,320
have and sort of go beyond so,
So First off, we already do rely

1090
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:41,920
on our technology.
So I'll give you the example of

1091
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,760
cooking, right.
That is a technology that we

1092
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,240
have literally got genetic
changes in order to live on the

1093
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:50,960
side, right.
We we have done this for I mean

1094
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,880
you know I wear glasses.
You know this is another

1095
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,360
technology that I, I, you know,
I I had a moment today where I

1096
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:57,480
was like where did I put my
glasses?

1097
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,720
I need to drive home.
You know like how will I see,

1098
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:03,040
right.
And so it's already the case

1099
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,960
that you know we we require our
technology and it's become more

1100
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,720
and more so like you are not you
are not competing.

1101
00:50:09,720 --> 00:50:12,760
You since you were a child you
were not being prepared for a

1102
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,600
natural world.
You were being prepared for a

1103
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,880
world of commerce and capitalism
and reading, you know, which

1104
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,680
required take a part of your
brain that's normally dedicated

1105
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,240
to facial recognition and
dedicated to recognizing.

1106
00:50:24,240 --> 00:50:26,600
And it became an instinct for
you, by the way, you know, like,

1107
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:28,760
you know the Stroop test where
you have like coloured coloured

1108
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,080
words and you have to say the
colour and not the word.

1109
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,800
You can't help but read.
You know, you say the you can't

1110
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,280
see the colour.
So if you, if you're a

1111
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,240
psychologist or Venus, you'd
come down, you'd be like, well,

1112
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,440
these humans have a natural
instinct for reading but not for

1113
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,800
colour perception, as you know.
Here's my evidence and you'd

1114
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,240
have the evidence.
A lot of this stuff is is

1115
00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:48,600
software, and we already live in
a thoroughly technological

1116
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:49,680
world.
But you asked me another

1117
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:51,640
question.
It's like, will AI reach the

1118
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,120
level of of humanity?
I mean, in the book I call it, I

1119
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:58,440
call it a kind of fourth line of
information, you know, which is,

1120
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,960
you know, we have genetics, you
know, millions of years of

1121
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,160
genetic evolution, thousands of
evolution, a short lifetime of

1122
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,280
experience.
And now we have AI which can

1123
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:13,120
gather all of that information
across the cultural corpus and

1124
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:15,960
give you personalized
recommendations and personalized

1125
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:17,880
information.
So I think we will work

1126
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:21,320
alongside our AI and and how
they will become indispensable.

1127
00:51:21,720 --> 00:51:23,920
I mean for me at least, you
know, a lot of language models

1128
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,400
like ChatGPT are already in
dispense, I use it every day,

1129
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,240
you know, but like they'll
become indispensable, you know.

1130
00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:33,400
So a lot of data-driven decision
making, right, requires data at

1131
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,760
the average.
So for example, you know if you

1132
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,280
are, if you want to say who,
what makes you happy, you have

1133
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,720
to say what makes the average
person happy because that's what

1134
00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:43,920
you get reported.
But the average person is

1135
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,600
ironically rare.
There is no average person.

1136
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,440
None of us is average.
We're all somewhere on

1137
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,360
different, you know, different
variables, different you know,

1138
00:51:52,720 --> 00:51:55,400
in terms of things.
And so you what you want is what

1139
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:57,120
does, what makes Someone Like
You happy.

1140
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,600
Or if you're a country, you
know, it's not useful to know

1141
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:04,000
what made Denmark successful.
If you are, you know, the

1142
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,760
Democratic Republic of Congo.
But it might help you to know

1143
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:11,120
what Rwanda did, right?
If you are Namibia, it might

1144
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:14,440
help you to look over at
Botswana and Angola and South

1145
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,040
Africa and learn from what
happened there, right.

1146
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,240
But then also think about your
specific content.

1147
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,800
AI can allow you to do that
'cause you can get personalized.

1148
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:23,080
And that's what I'm excited
about, right?

1149
00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:26,920
So it's a fourth line of
information just because.

1150
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:30,840
So you know a lot of people are
worried about like AI as going

1151
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,120
to take over, you know, or like
replace humans.

1152
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,800
And I think it it comes from
that misunderstanding of what

1153
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,440
intelligence it is.
Even in our society, the most

1154
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,360
intelligent aren't always the
ones who are like leading

1155
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:44,920
everyone else, right.
Like even if you're like you

1156
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:48,400
know, 55 Sigma, let's say you
know like well above like it

1157
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,040
doesn't mean that you're like,
you know, in charge of

1158
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,080
everything you, you, you.
AI has to work in the world,

1159
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:54,600
right?
They have to have the factories

1160
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,720
to have energy, you know that
for at least in the, in the

1161
00:52:57,720 --> 00:53:00,080
interim like they need someone
can pull out the plug.

1162
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,080
You know, you can shut down the
data center or whatever it has

1163
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:07,560
to operate in the world.
And what's more, we have agency

1164
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,360
that was given to us by millions
of years of genetic evolution

1165
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:11,840
and thousands of years of
cultural evolution, right.

1166
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,720
We we have goals like we compete
with one another because that's

1167
00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:18,040
what evolution does and we
cooperate with one another

1168
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,080
because that's what evolution
does and we have cultural ways

1169
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:21,880
of doing that.
Now, if you create an AI,

1170
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:26,280
there's no reason to believe
that the eye has a goal other

1171
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,720
than the one you gave it.
Now, it is true that we don't

1172
00:53:28,720 --> 00:53:33,000
know how to specify a goal well
enough to give that AI goal.

1173
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,200
You know, there's that story
about, you know, they did it in

1174
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,680
a simulated environment.
They gave the AI the goal of

1175
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,800
destroying the enemy, and, you
know, off it went to destroy the

1176
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,200
enemy.
And then they changed the order

1177
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,080
and it came back and it
destroyed the human.

1178
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,480
And so then they were like, OK,
well, destroy the enemy without

1179
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,160
destroying us.
And so then off it went and then

1180
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:50,760
it changed its order and it came
back and destroyed the

1181
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:54,040
communication tower so that he
couldn't give the order to not

1182
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:55,520
destroy the enemy.
Right.

1183
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,240
So and but but you know what?
This is also the case with

1184
00:53:59,240 --> 00:54:01,760
humans, right?
Like humans are a little bit

1185
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:03,760
better.
And so the AI needs theory of

1186
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:06,880
mind in some ability to try to
simulate what's because that's

1187
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,520
what that that was what we
cracked, right?

1188
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,680
Like we enabled our ability to
simulate the other person's

1189
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:16,200
brain.
In doing so, we would be able to

1190
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,600
say, OK, well, it doesn't matter
that Tevin said this, what he

1191
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:23,600
meant was this.
Because I know Tevin and the AI

1192
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:25,480
doesn't do that.
It has to be completely

1193
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,040
specified at the moment.
But once it starts having a

1194
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:31,680
better representation of you, it
can infer those you know your

1195
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,200
goals a bit better.
So I'm I'm less, I'm more of a

1196
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:35,840
techno.
I'm AI think of myself as a

1197
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:38,720
techno realist, but I'm more of
a techno optimist than I am a a

1198
00:54:38,720 --> 00:54:39,720
pessimist.
Like I just.

1199
00:54:39,720 --> 00:54:41,680
I just don't buy like the paper
clip analysis.

1200
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,560
It's also quite fascinating
because when when human beings,

1201
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,240
when when people make that
claim, like are we going to make

1202
00:54:47,240 --> 00:54:49,760
conscious artificial
intelligence?

1203
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,960
It's it's it's funny because
they don't think about the fact

1204
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,360
that they make conscious agents
all the time.

1205
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:58,440
But just by giving birth to
people, I mean, you're literally

1206
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:01,320
of making a mind.
You don't know this thing's

1207
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:02,800
going to go and kill everybody
or not.

1208
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:03,880
You literally don't know.
That's right.

1209
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:05,520
That's.
Yeah, you want to If you want to

1210
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,240
understand about AI alignment,
think about human alignment.

1211
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,360
Like how do we align humans to
not each other at the scale that

1212
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,880
we used to that required, you
know, when my assistant or my

1213
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,040
team, right?
Like I also have to train them

1214
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,480
with more specific instructions
like not going to destroy the

1215
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,600
communication tower or kill me
to the best of my knowledge.

1216
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,680
But you know like at the same
time I need to give clear

1217
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:27,680
instructions.
I need to give feedback and I

1218
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:30,880
need to provide.
We already know roughly how we

1219
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,960
align humans and I think AI need
to cooperate with us.

1220
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,560
So, you know, I I have like a a
burgeoning area of research

1221
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:41,200
where we're looking at at
cooperative AI and how we apply

1222
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,880
what we understand about human
cooperation, human alignment,

1223
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:46,960
you know, human cultural
evolution, to think about how to

1224
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:49,200
do that with AI.
But it's like it's all fresh and

1225
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,320
new.
So overall, where are we going

1226
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:53,200
as a species?
What do you think?

1227
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:56,080
Do you think of it as a
teleology, as if there's a skull

1228
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:58,560
directedness in the universe or
do you think it's just going to

1229
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:03,280
play out at random?
You know, I, I, you know, like I

1230
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:06,600
said, if if I believe anything
at all, you know in terms of the

1231
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:10,320
teleology, I believe that higher
scales of cooperation, the

1232
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:14,600
ability to work together in
higher organization, high scales

1233
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,760
of cooperation where there's
alignment, where you retain the

1234
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,960
autonomy at the lower levels,
but there's alignment is I think

1235
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,880
the ideal, if there is any
teleology at all where we begin

1236
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:29,920
to work together at higher and
higher scales, at the AI and our

1237
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:32,560
creations, the animals around
us.

1238
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:37,160
Other alien species like higher
scales of working is I think a

1239
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:39,600
secular aspiration that we can
only be behind Regardless I

1240
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:44,480
would think and I would say like
you when you are healthy are and

1241
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:46,760
you are an Amazon rainforest,
you're not you're as an

1242
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:48,560
Organism.
You're not a single Organism.

1243
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,880
You're filled with a microbiome
you know in various parts of

1244
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,080
your body you know people talk
about their gut a lot for

1245
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:56,720
example you couldn't survive
without of that all the

1246
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,720
microbiome and and your cells
are you are multicellular

1247
00:56:59,720 --> 00:57:03,200
complex multicellular Organism
you carry like where each of

1248
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:07,080
those cells are working in
wanting to survive they will

1249
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,880
even take a hit to themselves.
Now when a cell goes rogue and

1250
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:14,920
says, actually I don't care
about Tevin, I want to, I want

1251
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:16,880
to live.
We call that a cancer.

1252
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:20,960
We call that humor, you know, or
when we get defeated by outside

1253
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,840
organisms, you know, like the
bacteria, the viruses or

1254
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:25,280
whatever, right.
And often that happens when

1255
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,960
we're resource depleted, you
know, that is when we get sick

1256
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,800
and then the the ecosystem
starts to collapse the, you

1257
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:33,480
know, the bodies to collapse on
itself, right.

1258
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:37,280
And interestingly enough,
because we have alignment with

1259
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,200
other members of our society,
physicians who have access to

1260
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:43,560
medicines and so on, then we can
actually prolong the life of a

1261
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:47,600
person, right.
You know, Margaret Mead is

1262
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,000
supposed to have said, I don't
think it was actually Margaret

1263
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:52,800
Mead who said this, but, you
know, a sign of a civilization

1264
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:55,040
is a broken bone.
Why?

1265
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:59,520
Because a broken bone in the
animal Kingdom is death stand.

1266
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:05,320
But a a healed broken bone means
that you had cooperation at a

1267
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,200
level where other people cared
for you till that bone healed

1268
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:11,000
and looked after you if you had,
you know, any kind of issues

1269
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:13,400
after, right.
So I think that if there's

1270
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:17,120
anything at all is a kind of
aspiration now, then you have to

1271
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:20,640
think about OK, well what drives
higher scales of cooperation

1272
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:23,200
rather than lower.
And for me, like we haven't even

1273
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:25,280
talked about this, but a big
portion of the book is on energy

1274
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:29,960
and the role that, you know,
energy access and excess energy

1275
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,440
play.
Because in order to cooperate at

1276
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:36,760
a high scale, my returns per
cell, per Organism, per

1277
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,440
individual, per per society, per
country, per company has to be

1278
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:42,720
higher than what it would be if
I worked in a smaller group.

1279
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:45,160
Because I will work in the
smaller group evolutions

1280
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,880
exploring that landscape and
says actually, yeah, we'll work

1281
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:49,480
in the smaller group, then we
call that corruption.

1282
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,000
We call that insurrection.
We call that, you know, regional

1283
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,720
parochialism, religious
parochialism like, you know, and

1284
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:58,440
so when we have enough resources
and to access those resources we

1285
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,480
need more people.
That's when you get this higher

1286
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,400
scale of cooperation, right.
And so you know I I see a lot of

1287
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,160
the problems we face as being a
result of it's not that we don't

1288
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:10,840
have energy, it's just that at
the moment we're in a bit of a

1289
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:12,720
decline.
We we we, you know we skip the

1290
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:17,440
nuclear age and the our it's
just a temporary decline.

1291
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:19,200
Whenever we have a temporary
decline, we get to a recession,

1292
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:21,280
right.
There's a there's a whenever the

1293
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:23,320
the price of oil shoots up, we
go into a recession.

1294
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,040
And So what we're seeing is like
an issue with the end of the age

1295
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:28,400
of fossil fuels.
You know what?

1296
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:30,760
There's one key metric about
energy return on investment.

1297
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:33,040
And I give the example that all
the metrics look like this.

1298
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:36,200
You know, the example of oil
discovery rates.

1299
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:41,360
So in 1919, one barrel of oil
foundry, another 1000 by 1951

1300
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:42,960
barrel of oil of oil foundry,
another hundred.

1301
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:46,720
And by 2010, we'll barrel
Foundry another 5 S Fracking has

1302
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:50,080
saved us a little bit because we
had access to more and you know,

1303
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,160
solar has gotten cheaper.
So there's possibilities there.

1304
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:54,240
Nuclear is really the game
changer.

1305
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:59,320
And if you have, you know, hydro
like fast flowing rivers, that's

1306
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:01,920
another great source of energy.
Wind not so great.

1307
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,240
Wave doesn't really work.
You know, geothermal's OK if you

1308
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:06,960
have, you know, but it's pretty
specific.

1309
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:11,280
So you know, energy access is
really what created the modern

1310
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:13,600
like the fact that we found
millions of years worth of

1311
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,920
stored sunlight in the form of
fossil fuels like.

1312
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:19,600
Heat and Black Rock, you know,
turned to Black Rock with a

1313
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:22,560
coal, coal, you know, algae and
zooplankton turned to oil and

1314
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:25,680
natural gas.
We burned through those, you

1315
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:27,520
know that there's a fusion
reactor in the sky.

1316
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:30,880
Photosynthesis turned it into in
chemical form, you know, little

1317
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:34,640
sugar, you know, ATP compressed
over millions of years, and we

1318
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:36,960
burned that in centuries.
And that's what we used to

1319
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:39,080
launch human civilization as we
know it today.

1320
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:43,320
And now the coming century, We
don't have that next level of

1321
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:44,560
abundance.
We're in deep trouble.

1322
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:46,960
This all fits together.
Somehow it's.

1323
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:51,240
It's it's pretty scary and and
when when you think about the

1324
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,040
story you've told so far, it's
it looks like we made so much

1325
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:55,840
progress and you look at
humanity, you look at all the

1326
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:57,560
things we've done
technologically, everything

1327
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:00,720
we're doing currently.
Why is it that we still at odds

1328
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:04,000
all the time as well?
Why are people still, even

1329
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,920
though we're globalized at this
point and interconnected as a

1330
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:10,880
species, there's still so much
cultural diversity as well.

1331
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:14,040
How are we?
Yeah.

1332
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:16,000
So I mean diversity isn't a
problem if there's enough

1333
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:19,160
resources to go around, right.
So I mean I I tell I try to use

1334
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:21,280
some analogies to explain this.
So you know imagine like buses

1335
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:23,840
waiting wrong that's like you
know you cannot that's like the

1336
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:26,560
amount of energy or economic
growth or something like that.

1337
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:28,400
You know there's fractures in
society, right.

1338
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,080
Like some people like why do
some people have this this this

1339
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:33,760
past that gets them to the front
of the line every single time.

1340
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:36,600
You know this is the 1%.
You know why do some groups let

1341
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:38,120
other members of their group in
front of them?

1342
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:39,880
You know, this is like
interethnic conflict, inter

1343
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:42,640
religious or you know labor
unions, whatever.

1344
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:45,880
But if buses are coming every 5
minutes, you just mumble and

1345
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:47,360
grumble.
That's fine.

1346
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:50,600
But if the rate of buses slows
down, you know, one an hour or

1347
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:53,920
one a day, now that mumbling and
grumbling cracks, society comes

1348
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,360
apart, right?
And The thing is, it's sometimes

1349
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:01,000
it's it's a reality, just there
is, there is insufficient

1350
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,840
resources, right?
In other times, our behaviour

1351
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:06,960
creates the reality.
We're trapped in suboptimal

1352
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:11,760
equilibrium.
DRC has lots of resources, so to

1353
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:13,360
South Africa for that matter,
did you know?

1354
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:17,800
But you have to work together to
get it or you will be exploited.

1355
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:22,040
If you are the DRC, you can't.
You are too diverse, too

1356
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:24,080
separated, too much interest in
conflict.

1357
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:27,800
And so foreign nationals in the
form of like large companies

1358
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,320
come in and they are far more
cooperative and they cooperate

1359
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:33,360
with a small group of elites.
And that is sufficient to access

1360
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:36,120
those resources at the at the
point where you cannot, right?

1361
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:38,800
You can't.
Putin does not carry oil fields

1362
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:42,480
in his pockets, but because he
has proceeded control, he hands

1363
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:45,560
off resources to the to the
oligarchs who hand off resources

1364
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:47,640
to their supporters.
And you have this network of

1365
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:50,760
political package that holds
together until something shifts

1366
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:52,000
and then there's a big
reshuffle.

1367
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:55,400
But the Russian people can't
engage in sufficient collective

1368
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:57,280
action because they don't have
the resources to do it.

1369
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:00,440
They don't have that to out
compete this other cooperative

1370
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:02,520
group.
So it is always, you know this

1371
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:05,960
this kind of cooperation and and
the story of said that it was it

1372
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,800
was a really sad and difficult
time right, for them to kind of

1373
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:12,240
come together as a nation.
There was a possibility but all

1374
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:13,560
of those other things were still
there.

1375
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:16,720
And so you get trapped in these
suboptimal situations where

1376
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:19,000
there's still trouble ISM.
You're working for your people

1377
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,640
not not the best person.
There's differences in in

1378
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:25,000
visions for the country.
We've seen this in the United

1379
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:26,280
States.
So you know if you're Denmark

1380
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:29,400
you already agree that social
medicine is the way to go.

1381
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:31,680
You're the best person in charge
if you're the United States.

1382
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:34,040
If you don't agree on the
fundamental, you have to put

1383
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:36,040
your person in charge because
your person is very different to

1384
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,360
other people, right.
If you, if you're in a country

1385
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:41,280
that has a lot of corruption and
political patronage, you have to

1386
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:43,160
be part of that in order to get
by.

1387
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:45,600
And then you're trapped.
Because if you're in a situation

1388
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,520
where the state can't provision
for you, you have to rely on

1389
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:50,680
friends and family and smaller
networks.

1390
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:53,520
But because you have to rely on
them and you have allocations to

1391
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,320
them, it undermines the state.
So you can see it's you're

1392
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:59,040
trapped, right.
And so getting out of this is

1393
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:01,200
is, you know I I have some
suggestions on how to do it

1394
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:05,920
start up cities for example, you
know creating basically more

1395
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,200
competition because competition
is really what drives

1396
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:10,880
cooperation ironically in the
presence of sufficient

1397
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,680
resources.
So for example a country gave up

1398
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:17,640
a portion of like if you allowed
autonomy at a local level where

1399
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:21,000
you said, hey, this bit of land
not super used needs a bit like

1400
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,160
you can create, you can, you can
coordinate with whatever you

1401
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:28,680
want and you can create together
as a people and decide rules of

1402
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:31,320
this area, who you work with,
what happens.

1403
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:34,400
You can set that can separate
you, you can you can raise your

1404
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:37,720
own army, whatever you can.
That means separate you from the

1405
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:39,960
rest of the, you know, the
corrupt system.

1406
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:43,440
And so when there's now one of
those is is likely to be corrupt

1407
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:45,560
itself and it's probably going
to go out, you know, out of

1408
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:46,800
business.
But when it's aligned, it's a

1409
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:48,120
little bit like Silicon Valley,
right?

1410
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:49,840
Silicon Valley is a graveyard of
failure.

1411
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:52,880
Companies fail.
Like, you know Myspace and

1412
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:55,320
Vitals and you know things
you've never heard about Cools

1413
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:57,600
and you know all this crazy
stuff you've never heard about.

1414
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:00,720
But a few successes pay for the
rest, the Microsofts, the

1415
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:02,400
Googles.
And because people can move,

1416
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:04,440
they can start their own
companies and there's a kind of

1417
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:06,720
free movement.
That's why the system works.

1418
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:10,600
The market is sufficiently large
to to to take advantage of that.

1419
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:13,720
So if you allow cities to grow,
you allow them to compete with

1420
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:16,400
one another, you allow them to
import institutions, culture,

1421
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:19,560
set migration and slun in areas
that are undeveloped.

1422
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:20,840
So you're not going to lose
anything.

1423
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:25,080
That's this can be a model of
growth for I think Africa as

1424
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:27,760
well as other places.
I think you're touching just one

1425
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:29,600
as many.
You're touching on another

1426
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:32,640
because it's something so
prevalent on on our end.

1427
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:35,400
I mean, when I think about right
here in South Africa right now,

1428
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:37,600
when you talk about energy,
you're talking about cultural

1429
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:39,520
diversity in South Africa.
We have what's called load

1430
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:40,560
cheating.
I don't know if you're familiar

1431
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:42,680
with it.
So yeah, yeah.

1432
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:46,400
It's so frustrating, so like at
any point I would give it at

1433
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:48,760
about.
In about two hours time my

1434
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:50,400
electricity is going to
completely shut off, but I've

1435
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:53,400
got an inverter generator just
to keep things going.

1436
01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:58,440
But it's so frustrating because
we've worked around this so so I

1437
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:02,200
go through my days preparing for
at least three, two hour

1438
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:06,680
schedules of blackouts in a day.
So we spent almost 6 to 8 hours

1439
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:09,440
a day with no electricity.
It's absurd and Africa's

1440
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:12,160
actually quiet.
Think about about the effects on

1441
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:14,240
commerce.
Think about the effects on

1442
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:16,040
economic growth.
You know these are self

1443
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:19,040
fulfilling cycles.
You know, I mean you know I I I

1444
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:21,520
was chatting with a a South
African colleague and you know I

1445
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:23,080
said look this is like a failed
state.

1446
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:25,120
She got very upset.
She's like you know and I was I

1447
01:06:25,120 --> 01:06:26,440
don't think that's helpful to be
upset.

1448
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:30,360
You know, if a if a state can't
provision electricity for its

1449
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:33,080
citizens, that's fundamentally
different to a state.

1450
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:36,600
Even provisioning healthcare.
You know, energy is, is is the

1451
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:40,000
lifeblood of of civilization.
Even more than keeping your

1452
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:42,680
citizens healthy, it is
literally the lifeblood.

1453
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:47,280
Like that is what empowers human
ingenuity, right?

1454
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:49,680
You know, like Winston Churchill
had this thing, you know, he

1455
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:53,440
said what a man can do in a day
if he has the power of coal, he

1456
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:55,880
can do a week's worth of work.
A month's worth of work, right.

1457
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,720
And he and then he was basically
saying if you have the power of

1458
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:00,720
nuclear then thousand times
still, right.

1459
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:01,800
He was very hopeful on this
stuff.

1460
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:05,360
As I said, we missed that age,
but it's a serious issue, right?

1461
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:09,520
And it's unclear how you know
how that coalition comes

1462
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:10,920
together.
It's a cooperative problem,

1463
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:12,440
right?
A coalition comes together to

1464
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:15,720
displace the current coalition.
Yeah, this is what.

1465
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,080
You're talking about.
I mean, that's precisely the

1466
01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:21,080
problem, is that we've got
political issues that because

1467
01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:23,600
we've got the resources, we've
got everything we actually need.

1468
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:27,760
It's just that things just don't
allow, you know, like, you know,

1469
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:29,640
as I said to you, you know, I
grew up in Botswana.

1470
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:32,560
You know, I think in 97 maybe,
you know, I was there from like

1471
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:36,480
90 to 97.
I mean, it's close to my heart

1472
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:38,240
and it makes my heart because I
saw it.

1473
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:41,360
You know, I was old enough to
remember, like, you know, in the

1474
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:44,320
book I, you know, I have this,
this image of like, you know, I

1475
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:47,440
talk about like seeing FW de
Klerk, you know, with this kind

1476
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:50,000
of sombre look on his face and,
you know, Mandela with, you

1477
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:52,680
know, with this beaming smile
and raising their hands

1478
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:56,120
together, right, ushering in a
new era of hope and uncertainty.

1479
01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:59,520
And it wasn't clear, you know,
could anyone, you know, fill

1480
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:01,720
Mandela's shoes?
What direction would this

1481
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:03,400
country go in?
There was.

1482
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:09,040
There was, there was, there was
opportunity that was squandered,

1483
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:13,000
let's put it that way.
So hopeful novel is so hopeless.

1484
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:15,040
Yeah.
I mean the excitement of the

1485
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:18,600
time you know like I remember, I
remember being Johannesburg you

1486
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:22,800
know like before and after.
You know, I just I it's it's

1487
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:24,439
it's heartbreaking.
It's honestly, it's

1488
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:26,479
heartbreaking as an outside as
a, you know, and I don't want to

1489
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:29,040
say it inside, but someone who's
close to it, but also outside of

1490
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:31,000
it who has friends there.
It's how it's heartbreaking.

1491
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:33,760
For us, it's very strange
because we, we love South

1492
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:35,760
Africa.
I mean, living here, growing up

1493
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:39,520
a year, you love the country,
but yet you also hate the

1494
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:41,640
country at the same time.
It's one of those, yeah, Yeah,

1495
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:44,760
relationships with the with
because you want to leave the.

1496
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:47,000
No, Yeah, it's.
Very strange.

1497
01:08:47,359 --> 01:08:47,920
Yeah.
Yeah.

1498
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:50,040
I mean, there's something about
the African way and there's

1499
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:52,399
something about the South
African culture, Yeah.

1500
01:08:52,399 --> 01:08:56,720
And honestly, you know, I'm a
very citizen, but go back, you

1501
01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:01,520
know, next weekend.
That's The funny thing is, is

1502
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:04,439
that the country, it just so
happened that for some reason

1503
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:06,600
this week we don't have load
shitting.

1504
01:09:07,359 --> 01:09:10,000
Yeah, and it's.
And it's clearly because they,

1505
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:13,200
they know exactly when to get us
to relax, to calm down and then

1506
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:15,200
forget about it.
And then next week, I can

1507
01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:17,800
promise you come back.
Yeah.

1508
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:19,479
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I mean it.

1509
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:20,720
It's all right.
But, you know, like I I

1510
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:23,080
honestly, I hope.
I hope more S Africans, You

1511
01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:24,920
know, I don't know where your
audience is, but like I do have

1512
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:27,399
most S Africans read the book
and I hope that they're, you

1513
01:09:27,399 --> 01:09:30,479
know, inspired and they and
really why I wrote this.

1514
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:32,720
You know.
So there's a couple reasons.

1515
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:34,840
So, you know, people say don't
write a book if you feel like

1516
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:37,080
should write a book or you
certainly don't write to make

1517
01:09:37,080 --> 01:09:38,840
money.
You know, like it's just not

1518
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:39,760
that.
You know, it's not a good use of

1519
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:41,960
your time writing.
What is bursting out of you?

1520
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:43,319
Like, you can't not write the
book.

1521
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:45,840
And that's how I felt.
I was bursting out of me for a

1522
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:49,240
couple of reasons.
One is like, I felt like we were

1523
01:09:49,240 --> 01:09:50,960
at this point and people really
ought to know.

1524
01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:53,319
But the second reason is that
people ought to know because

1525
01:09:53,319 --> 01:09:56,720
problems we face do have new
ways of looking at them.

1526
01:09:57,200 --> 01:09:59,120
And I'm not saying that the book
is filled with all of the

1527
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:01,680
solutions, right?
Like, I do cover a lot of

1528
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:03,520
ground.
And I don't mind being wrong.

1529
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:05,320
Like, I don't mind people saying
to me is, here's why that's not

1530
01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:07,840
going to work.
But what I do want people to

1531
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:09,600
realize is we have a theory of
human behavior.

1532
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:12,840
We have a theory of everyone.
We have, we have some, a much

1533
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:15,280
better understanding of
political processes than you

1534
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:18,680
might imagine, of of of the
evolutionary processes that lead

1535
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:21,320
to successful companies and that
lead to successful countries

1536
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:25,120
that you can implement, right.
You know what it's like on the

1537
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:26,920
ground.
And so I I will not only just be

1538
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:30,800
inspired inspiration is fine,
but also have a tool kit that

1539
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:33,200
you can say, OK, let me look at
my problem.

1540
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:36,640
This is where the levers are and
if I were to get together

1541
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:40,320
because you know the the book
ends with the power of a simple

1542
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:43,520
idea and the way that it can
change society you know and and

1543
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:45,920
and the example that I use is
like we hold these truths to be

1544
01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:47,880
self-evident that all men are
created equal.

1545
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:51,440
You know that was written at a
time when the first dozen

1546
01:10:51,440 --> 01:10:55,040
presidents all had slaves except
for John Quincy Adams and his

1547
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:57,240
son.
You know like because Quakers

1548
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:01,200
and and they Christians at least
you know and and so you know

1549
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:04,680
they didn't they they didn't but
everyone else did like clearly

1550
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:07,560
it wasn't it wasn't practiced as
it was written.

1551
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:11,760
But you know those are the those
are the words that were used by

1552
01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:14,480
the suffragists who said you
know we hold these truths to be

1553
01:11:14,480 --> 01:11:16,800
so that all men and women are
created equal.

1554
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:20,320
You know because once we'd
agreed on that that idea and we

1555
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:22,280
had the mechanisms doing that
you could push forward.

1556
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:25,560
You can push further you know we
hold these you know this is what

1557
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:28,440
Luther King junior you know said
on the on the Lincoln Memorial

1558
01:11:28,440 --> 01:11:31,400
the steps of Lincoln Memorial.
You know we that I'm calling on

1559
01:11:31,400 --> 01:11:35,280
America to live out live out its
ideals that all men are created

1560
01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:38,920
equal.
You know in this country.

1561
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:41,680
You know when it moved from from
the world's largest empire to a

1562
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:44,160
social welfare state, it was, it
was the IT was the power of a

1563
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:46,320
well resourced small group of
people.

1564
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:50,320
The Fabians.
You know the end of the end the

1565
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:53,440
end of of of most slavery.
Of course it's still slavery

1566
01:11:53,480 --> 01:11:55,400
today, but not the way it was
practiced right.

1567
01:11:55,640 --> 01:12:02,280
Slavery used to be
unobjectionable obvious the idea

1568
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:04,920
that we could hold like I know
it seems crazy today because

1569
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:07,520
again our software has changed
but like the idea that you could

1570
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:09,520
own another person.
Like if you look at the the the

1571
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:12,560
major world religions they don't
tell you don't have slaves.

1572
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:14,920
They tell you how to treat them
right.

1573
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:16,920
They tell you how to treat
slaves.

1574
01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:18,320
Right.
Like the assumption is of course

1575
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:21,840
you can own another human of
course you know but now it's

1576
01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:24,720
it's it's unimaginable.
You know it's it's objectionable

1577
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:27,520
like even you know like even the
the place of practice if

1578
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:28,960
everyone agrees that's a bad
thing.

1579
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:31,600
We shouldn't be having slaves or
we should squash that.

1580
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:33,400
That's a major moral
achievement.

1581
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:35,720
One of the greatest.
And it was launched by a small

1582
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:38,640
group of Quakers that the
enslaved themselves working

1583
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:42,080
together through this idea.
It cost the the British economy

1584
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:47,360
a pile of money to pay back
slavers, not the enslaved, which

1585
01:12:47,360 --> 01:12:52,520
leads to, you know, to to a lot
of arguments about about how to

1586
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:56,920
pay that back.
But it was a simple like held by

1587
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:58,480
a group of people and I, and
that's just what I hope in the

1588
01:12:58,480 --> 01:13:00,040
book, right?
It's not just the ideas but the

1589
01:13:00,040 --> 01:13:02,400
tools by which you could change
your world.

1590
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:07,480
You, the world was created by
people no smarter than you and

1591
01:13:07,480 --> 01:13:10,320
honestly, not as smart as you,
because we have all gotten

1592
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:11,440
smarter.
It's called the Flint effect,

1593
01:13:11,440 --> 01:13:12,560
right?
We have literally all gotten

1594
01:13:12,560 --> 01:13:14,360
cleverer.
You might think when you look

1595
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:16,000
back to the past, that it was a
world of geniuses.

1596
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:17,560
It wasn't.
It was just that there were

1597
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:19,600
fewer educated people, so a few
people stood out.

1598
01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:22,320
We live in a world of geniuses
all around us.

1599
01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:25,000
They're podcasters, You know,
they're they're doing all kinds

1600
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:28,600
of things, all the time, right?
The world was created by people

1601
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:31,840
no smarter than you, and change
is possible.

1602
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:36,400
You, together with a group of
other people cooperating, can

1603
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:38,960
actually change the world,
because that is how change it's

1604
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:42,000
always happened.
And the first step is to say I

1605
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:45,400
actually can if you and if the
more you look, the more you

1606
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:48,080
realize that it was ordinary
people called on to do

1607
01:13:48,080 --> 01:13:51,560
extraordinary things.
Yeah, it's it's pretty poetic.

1608
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:54,800
I mean, it's very beautiful.
Sorry, Michael, if at any point

1609
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:57,080
if I can't, my nose is very
congested.

1610
01:13:57,080 --> 01:14:00,080
I was in hospital recently.
I had a serious bout of COVID.

1611
01:14:00,240 --> 01:14:02,840
Oh, I'm sorry.
So I have no.

1612
01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:05,600
So I sometimes can't really hear
myself so well.

1613
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:06,760
So if I am shanting, I don't
know.

1614
01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:09,280
If I am, apologize about that.
You're not.

1615
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:11,000
You're not, you're not.
And thank you for doing this

1616
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:13,400
podcast regardless of your
health condition at the moment.

1617
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:15,320
I had AI had a bit of a scare, I
thought.

1618
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:17,480
I thought I was going to have a
heart attack, but I think it was

1619
01:14:17,480 --> 01:14:19,680
an anxiety attack.
Andrew Rushy was.

1620
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:23,400
I work at the medical practice
literally drove myself to the

1621
01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:26,280
hospital next door, got checked
up with my friend and I came

1622
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:30,080
back to work.
It was a pretty ridiculous scare

1623
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:34,120
but the I'm just thinking about
the progress and the innovation

1624
01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:37,320
that everything that we've
reached at this point and how

1625
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:40,800
far we've your optimism.
I share it and I think.

1626
01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:44,040
But as a child, I thought that I
was very negative about it.

1627
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:46,040
And I mean there there was this
pessimism because you start to

1628
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:48,200
see the way things are going.
And I think from a South African

1629
01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:50,320
perspective that probably
influenced me a little bit.

1630
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:54,560
But it's very easy to see how
you can take the information you

1631
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:58,000
have and make such a positive
picture from it.

1632
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:02,960
Do you think that more people
will be able to do that based on

1633
01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:06,560
often reading a book, you think
that it creates this positive?

1634
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:10,080
Yeah.
Hey look, let let me let let me

1635
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:12,840
be clear.
I'm actually not optimistic in

1636
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:16,280
the sense that I, I don't
believe that it is inevitable

1637
01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:21,600
that the world that our children
and grandchildren inherit is

1638
01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:23,960
going to be better than the
world that you and I grew up in.

1639
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:28,400
I don't believe that at all.
But what I do believe is that we

1640
01:15:28,440 --> 01:15:33,800
have at the moment the current
energy levels because you know

1641
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:36,320
like it's harder when the more
you fall the the, the more

1642
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:39,200
difficult it is to invest in
these long term like nuclear

1643
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:41,200
power plants that don't pay for
themselves, you know for a few

1644
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:43,160
years or even with older grids
or whatever.

1645
01:15:43,200 --> 01:15:46,720
You know to invest in that
requires a kind of a long term

1646
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:48,720
thinking.
And at the moment we have

1647
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:53,200
sufficient scales of cooperation
and sufficient technologies in

1648
01:15:53,200 --> 01:15:56,480
the you know like small modular
reactors, micro reactors.

1649
01:15:56,960 --> 01:16:00,200
You know fusion is a, you know,
I know it's always between

1650
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:02,680
Monday and 30 years from now.
But you know like we have a

1651
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:05,080
start up system around that you
know we have new possibilities

1652
01:16:05,080 --> 01:16:07,640
and we should be pushing on that
because the fusion reactor in

1653
01:16:07,640 --> 01:16:10,440
the sky and fusion on Earth
would would make us the first

1654
01:16:10,440 --> 01:16:12,320
generation of a galactic
civilization, right.

1655
01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:15,160
It it would be that level of
energy control.

1656
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:18,840
But what I what I do believe is
not that the world is inevitably

1657
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:21,120
going to be better.
I don't believe that at all.

1658
01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:26,280
But I do believe that the world
we have, the capacity, the

1659
01:16:26,280 --> 01:16:30,200
knowledge, the energy, the
cooperation too, if we so

1660
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:35,400
choose, leave a better world for
our children, grandchildren, all

1661
01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:38,080
sapiens to follow.
That is what I believe in.

1662
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:39,920
So yeah.
So sorry, man.

1663
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:43,040
Continue.
No, I I was just going to say

1664
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:45,600
and what I what I what I hope
the book gives people is how to

1665
01:16:45,600 --> 01:16:47,760
get there.
You know, it's a road map, a

1666
01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:49,160
blueprint.
You know, I think that's, you

1667
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:50,960
know, I think the publishers
wrote, you know, they called it

1668
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:52,520
like a blueprint for a better
future.

1669
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:53,720
And I like that.
I didn't come up with that.

1670
01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:54,760
You know, I liked it.
Yeah, I.

1671
01:16:55,040 --> 01:16:58,200
Mean you can't see it that way.
Do you think that it's important

1672
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:00,760
for us to have a Plan B?
So I'm sort of getting onto

1673
01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:03,840
another planet, getting out of
here maybe.

1674
01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:06,440
I don't think that's a plan.
BI think that should be.

1675
01:17:06,440 --> 01:17:09,200
That's the plan a like, you
know, like I think that the, you

1676
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:11,120
know, look, we are a migratory
species, right?

1677
01:17:11,440 --> 01:17:15,480
Like the story of humanity is
migration, right?

1678
01:17:15,480 --> 01:17:19,040
Like we, you know, we evolved in
Africa, which still has the most

1679
01:17:19,040 --> 01:17:21,160
amount of genetic diversity in
the world.

1680
01:17:21,480 --> 01:17:23,640
You know, this is humanity's
like origins.

1681
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:26,880
And we marched across the globe,
you know, we stood up, literally

1682
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:30,600
stood up, and we walked across
the globe and met other human

1683
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:33,080
groups that had been there
before, the Neanderthals, the

1684
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:37,640
Denisovans, you know, And we, we
did what humans always do when

1685
01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:40,080
they meet other groups.
We cooperated.

1686
01:17:40,440 --> 01:17:43,800
We mated.
We came into conflict, you know,

1687
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:46,920
like violently, you know, and
like and and not violently,

1688
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:48,440
right?
Like, you know, I think, I think

1689
01:17:48,440 --> 01:17:55,440
one of the messages in this book
is that there have been past

1690
01:17:55,440 --> 01:18:01,760
injustices, but the world is the
story of our species as humans

1691
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:05,160
being dixed to each other and
being good to each other, right?

1692
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:08,920
Like, no, no particular group
has a monopoly on that.

1693
01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:12,280
Europe was able to do it at an
unprecedented scale because

1694
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:15,360
Eurasia had a larger collective
brain and the cheap and

1695
01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:17,720
available coal in England.
And later, you know, the

1696
01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:21,200
industrialization of Europe led
to an unprecedented scale

1697
01:18:21,200 --> 01:18:23,040
ability of what humans have
always done.

1698
01:18:24,480 --> 01:18:28,960
And the land that we live on,
right, doesn't necessarily

1699
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:31,040
build, you know, like we fight
over the land and we talk about

1700
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:33,680
like who the people are.
And the ancient DNA now tells us

1701
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:36,720
that the stories that we tell
aren't always true.

1702
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:37,760
Right.
You know, so people will say,

1703
01:18:37,760 --> 01:18:39,880
you know, our people have been
on here for 50,000 years.

1704
01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:42,080
And then you look at the ancient
DNA, turned out they got here

1705
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:45,080
5000 years ago and they
violently displaced all the

1706
01:18:45,080 --> 01:18:46,880
males and took the females.
Right.

1707
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:49,640
We see the end of the Y lineage
and and the continuation of the

1708
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:53,200
X or they replaced everybody.
Right.

1709
01:18:53,480 --> 01:18:56,200
So you want to talk about like,
who are the indigenous people of

1710
01:18:56,200 --> 01:18:58,360
a particular, you know, what
about the Bantu migration?

1711
01:18:58,360 --> 01:19:01,320
You know, like all the way from,
you know, South Central Africa

1712
01:19:01,320 --> 01:19:05,000
downward, You know there were
past injustices.

1713
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:08,960
But what we want to do is to use
present circumstance to create a

1714
01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:13,120
better future rather than try to
repatriate.

1715
01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:17,600
Or you know, you can't, you
can't change that, right?

1716
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:20,040
But what you can do is create a
level playing field for the

1717
01:19:20,040 --> 01:19:21,960
future.
Yeah, I must feel it's almost

1718
01:19:22,520 --> 01:19:26,400
impossible to to have a negative
attitude to other people when

1719
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:30,560
you, when you understand the
real basis of our, it's so

1720
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:32,120
difficult.
I mean, when someone says you're

1721
01:19:32,120 --> 01:19:34,400
not really from you, I mean
we're all from you, it's you

1722
01:19:34,400 --> 01:19:37,120
can't really say.
At any point because we

1723
01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:37,960
literally that's.
Right.

1724
01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:40,640
Same speed.
We've come from a same genetic

1725
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:42,520
tree.
We're a very small species.

1726
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:44,960
In fact, like genetically, you
know, like as I say in the book,

1727
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:48,800
like especially if you're erased
the, you know, the distance,

1728
01:19:48,840 --> 01:19:51,600
like the genetic gap between
someone from Berlin and Beijing

1729
01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:54,320
is smaller than the gap between
2 chimpanzees in the Congo,

1730
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:56,320
right.
Because, you know, because of

1731
01:19:56,320 --> 01:19:58,320
the human migration, you didn't
take the full genetic pool with

1732
01:19:58,320 --> 01:19:59,840
you.
So you get smaller and smaller

1733
01:19:59,840 --> 01:20:02,000
genetic variation as you move
further and further from Africa.

1734
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:05,760
There's even smaller variation
in, you know, central s s and

1735
01:20:05,840 --> 01:20:08,200
Norfolk, right, in in the
indigenous populations there.

1736
01:20:08,640 --> 01:20:09,880
But my point is that you're
right.

1737
01:20:09,880 --> 01:20:12,680
Like we are humans and although
there may not be a human nature,

1738
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:15,240
we are all capable of great
achievements and great

1739
01:20:15,240 --> 01:20:17,240
atrocities.
And I think when you start to

1740
01:20:17,240 --> 01:20:21,200
see that you know you, it just
makes the makes, the kind of

1741
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:22,960
infighting that we currently see
so small.

1742
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:28,000
No and and and and often clearly
a a, a power grab you know but

1743
01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:31,560
what we do need are levelling
mechanisms like an ideal world

1744
01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:36,480
is one in which we take the best
of each generation they are that

1745
01:20:36,480 --> 01:20:41,600
opportunity is available to more
and we we give each generation

1746
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:45,560
the opportunity to either push
forward our species or to invest

1747
01:20:45,560 --> 01:20:47,320
in those who will push forward
our species.

1748
01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:49,880
And we we try our best to level
it.

1749
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:52,840
You know inheritance taxes are
are a good way to do that but

1750
01:20:52,840 --> 01:20:55,400
they're challenging.
One major way you know I

1751
01:20:55,400 --> 01:20:59,320
advocate in the book various
ways is land value taxes unlike

1752
01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:04,120
other asset that we can own
right like patents companies

1753
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:07,840
anything really.
We did not create the land.

1754
01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:11,040
We created what's on top of the
land, but we did not create the

1755
01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:12,080
land.
Not.

1756
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:14,280
I'm not like a particularly
socialist person who's like, oh,

1757
01:21:14,280 --> 01:21:15,480
you should all own the land or
whatever.

1758
01:21:15,480 --> 01:21:17,920
But if you control a piece of
land, you should not be able to

1759
01:21:17,920 --> 01:21:20,320
control for thousands of years
as many people do.

1760
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:24,800
You should pay a tax to control
that land based on its value.

1761
01:21:25,200 --> 01:21:28,200
And the value of a land is not
created just by the buildings

1762
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:31,160
you put on it, but what other
people put around it, Right?

1763
01:21:31,160 --> 01:21:36,000
We add value to land.
And The thing is, what does, you

1764
01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:37,240
know?
And you there's there's pathways

1765
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:39,560
to get there to 'cause people
reallocate there.

1766
01:21:39,640 --> 01:21:42,160
You know, I own land you, you
know people own land, right?

1767
01:21:42,440 --> 01:21:44,720
But you want to encourage people
because because it's a good

1768
01:21:44,720 --> 01:21:47,360
investment, but you want to
encourage people to move to

1769
01:21:47,440 --> 01:21:51,480
productive investments like
companies or patents or

1770
01:21:51,480 --> 01:21:55,520
whatever, things that produce,
not things that just hold value,

1771
01:21:55,680 --> 01:21:57,880
right.
And when you do that, you create

1772
01:21:57,880 --> 01:22:00,120
it, You naturally create a more
level playing field.

1773
01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:02,600
And also you can get rid of
inherited, you can sorry, you

1774
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:04,440
can get rid of income tax and
sales tax.

1775
01:22:04,840 --> 01:22:06,400
You know all of these taxes by
the way are fairly new.

1776
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:09,200
So in the United States people
don't realize this, but like in

1777
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:13,840
income taxes was in in 1913,
right, sales tax, you know and

1778
01:22:13,840 --> 01:22:16,760
and and and capital gains tax as
well, right.

1779
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:19,840
Sales tax was in 1927, I think
somewhere around there, right.

1780
01:22:20,880 --> 01:22:22,920
These are new taxes.
And when they were implemented,

1781
01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:26,480
by the way, it was one percent,
1% in, in modern terms, it was

1782
01:22:26,480 --> 01:22:30,240
1% up to about 100,000.
And the maximum tax rate was 7%.

1783
01:22:31,120 --> 01:22:31,840
Yeah.
And.

1784
01:22:31,840 --> 01:22:34,440
And it was, oh, you know, in in
in mock, I guess maybe about 10

1785
01:22:34,440 --> 01:22:37,280
million or something, right.
That's great.

1786
01:22:37,480 --> 01:22:40,680
Like we didn't survive without
those taxes, right?

1787
01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:44,320
You tax if you tax the land and
you replace, you get rid of

1788
01:22:44,320 --> 01:22:47,240
income tax, get rid of sales
tax, get rid of capital gains

1789
01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:50,680
tax, Right.
Tax things that are unproductive

1790
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:53,640
rent seeking, where people are
just holding on to value but not

1791
01:22:53,640 --> 01:22:57,200
contributing to society.
That will naturally create a

1792
01:22:57,200 --> 01:23:01,040
levelled playing field over time
because it doesn't require

1793
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:02,520
reallocation.
It doesn't require to think

1794
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:04,880
about the color of your skin.
It doesn't require any of that.

1795
01:23:05,640 --> 01:23:06,800
You know it.
It requires.

1796
01:23:06,800 --> 01:23:09,160
It just says, hey, look, if you
want to take some land, then we

1797
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:11,720
and it.
It incentivizes people to

1798
01:23:11,720 --> 01:23:14,800
maximally use that land.
If you're just holding it, just

1799
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:17,880
not doing anything with it,
you're going to lose it because

1800
01:23:17,880 --> 01:23:19,800
you can't pay those taxes.
That's right.

1801
01:23:19,800 --> 01:23:22,960
If you're not continuing to,
it's the, you know, and by the

1802
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:25,200
way, if you look at it's the one
tax that, you know, economists

1803
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:27,680
across the political spectrum
agree is a better tax.

1804
01:23:27,680 --> 01:23:29,400
It's just the middle class own
land.

1805
01:23:29,400 --> 01:23:32,800
And they just don't realize how
little land they own relative to

1806
01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:35,720
the elite and how much more they
would have if you if you got rid

1807
01:23:35,720 --> 01:23:38,640
of their income tax and their
sales tax and their capital

1808
01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:40,960
gains tax and just say, hey,
look, we're going to tax this at

1809
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:44,680
at like a rate 6 percent, 3%.
And you can pay for everything,

1810
01:23:44,880 --> 01:23:47,320
you know.
And oh, and it also other

1811
01:23:47,320 --> 01:23:49,000
advantages, right?
Like you can't, you know, so a

1812
01:23:49,000 --> 01:23:50,960
lot of a lot of the problems
with inheritance tax and wealth

1813
01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:52,680
taxes, it flees.
Right.

1814
01:23:52,680 --> 01:23:56,000
Like people take money and they
go, but you can't take the.

1815
01:23:56,200 --> 01:23:59,720
You can't take the land.
The land can't move Bahamas.

1816
01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:03,360
You know, the land can't move to
the Cayman Islands or to

1817
01:24:03,360 --> 01:24:06,600
Switzerland.
And so you know as a result of

1818
01:24:06,600 --> 01:24:09,600
that it's it's inescapable.
But there are these solutions

1819
01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:12,800
you know that that that are that
are that are present if if we so

1820
01:24:12,800 --> 01:24:15,160
choose.
Yeah, yeah, You'd be someone

1821
01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:16,800
nice to borrow to for South
Africa.

1822
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:19,360
You should come back sometime
and just you should give some.

1823
01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:24,840
I think we need to know if I
would look if I was convinced

1824
01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:28,640
that there were serious people
there who were going to use this

1825
01:24:29,080 --> 01:24:33,160
for good, I'd do a pro bono.
I would.

1826
01:24:33,160 --> 01:24:35,600
I would come along and tell you
like I would do my best and I

1827
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:38,400
would, I would hook you up with
like the people at at the LSC or

1828
01:24:38,400 --> 01:24:39,960
whatever.
Like, you know, what you need is

1829
01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:42,720
the people who are serious about
this and who are working

1830
01:24:42,720 --> 01:24:44,640
together and they're
sufficiently resource and they

1831
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:46,640
they deeply care about their
country to the point where it's

1832
01:24:46,640 --> 01:24:49,280
like it's not just about me.
You need the, you need the

1833
01:24:49,280 --> 01:24:52,200
Mandela who's willing to step
down to leave the place, but

1834
01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:56,920
then leave the institutions and
leave it in hands that are, you

1835
01:24:56,920 --> 01:25:01,360
know, we should be ruled by
principles and not people.

1836
01:25:02,080 --> 01:25:05,560
We should be ruled by laws and
not Lords, right?

1837
01:25:05,560 --> 01:25:07,040
And so it's not about the
person.

1838
01:25:07,040 --> 01:25:09,040
It's about the culture, It's
about the institutions, It's

1839
01:25:09,040 --> 01:25:12,520
about the enforcement of the
rules that you know, that are

1840
01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:16,240
good, that are not self-serving.
Michael, this is such a

1841
01:25:16,240 --> 01:25:18,240
fascinating Chad.
I mean it's it's it's slightly

1842
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:20,280
different from the usual
conversations because I usually

1843
01:25:20,280 --> 01:25:22,680
try and tailor them around the
mind body problem or.

1844
01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:25,240
Philosophical.
I'm happy to go there too.

1845
01:25:25,240 --> 01:25:28,160
We can do anything you want.
But I think it's so important as

1846
01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:30,720
well, because in trying to
understand the nature of mine,

1847
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:33,880
you, you can't not understand
the fundamental nature of us,

1848
01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:36,600
because this is what it's all
about, as you said.

1849
01:25:36,600 --> 01:25:39,400
I mean, the physicist might want
to talk about the fundamental

1850
01:25:39,400 --> 01:25:41,600
nature of things, your brother
might want to talk about that.

1851
01:25:41,600 --> 01:25:45,280
But why do we want to talk about
that is exactly.

1852
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:49,880
Yeah, Philosophically.
Anything in your mind about the

1853
01:25:49,880 --> 01:25:52,880
nature of human, the human
nature that really fascinates

1854
01:25:52,880 --> 01:25:55,440
you, that you don't often talk
about, that you feel that you'd

1855
01:25:55,440 --> 01:25:59,640
like to share?
I don't know.

1856
01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:02,920
I mean, you know, I mean I I
think, I think it's important to

1857
01:26:02,920 --> 01:26:05,160
recognize that, you know, there
are the, as I said, we're an

1858
01:26:05,160 --> 01:26:06,960
animal.
We have common things like, you

1859
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:10,200
know, but a lot of human nature
is nurtured and of course how we

1860
01:26:10,200 --> 01:26:13,240
nurture is nature, right?
Like, you know, this whole like

1861
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:15,840
nature versus nurture idea,
it's, it's over.

1862
01:26:15,840 --> 01:26:19,600
Like we now know it's about
sensible as saying which leg do

1863
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:21,280
we walk with, the left or the
right leg.

1864
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:25,280
You know, like obviously, like
for humans at least these are

1865
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:29,200
deeply entwined and inextricably
so you can't separate them,

1866
01:26:29,400 --> 01:26:31,640
right.
And that's this itself has some

1867
01:26:31,640 --> 01:26:33,120
interesting and important
implications.

1868
01:26:33,120 --> 01:26:36,280
So, you know, if you want to,
there's an entire chapter on

1869
01:26:36,280 --> 01:26:38,680
becoming brighter, both as
individual and as a as a

1870
01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:41,080
society, right?
Like if it's in your software,

1871
01:26:41,080 --> 01:26:43,440
you can get better software.
You can become more creative by

1872
01:26:43,440 --> 01:26:46,440
tailoring your information
architecture and who you listen

1873
01:26:46,440 --> 01:26:47,960
to.
You don't have to leave it to

1874
01:26:47,960 --> 01:26:49,640
algorithms to decide what to
show you.

1875
01:26:50,160 --> 01:26:52,840
You can be directed in in, you
know, like the Internet, for

1876
01:26:52,840 --> 01:26:54,920
example, right?
It is enabled for the first time

1877
01:26:55,320 --> 01:26:57,400
you to listen in on
conversations you never had

1878
01:26:57,400 --> 01:26:59,680
access to.
You can join the Discord

1879
01:26:59,680 --> 01:27:02,160
channels, the subreddits, the
the forums.

1880
01:27:02,160 --> 01:27:04,000
You can you want to go listen to
white supremacists?

1881
01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:06,800
Go listen.
You want to listen to, you know,

1882
01:27:07,480 --> 01:27:10,480
Islamic groups or Jewish groups
or feminists or men's rights

1883
01:27:10,480 --> 01:27:11,640
activists.
You want to hear what they

1884
01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:14,480
really do to each other.
Go listen right.

1885
01:27:14,960 --> 01:27:16,920
And so you can tailor your
information environment.

1886
01:27:16,920 --> 01:27:18,880
You can tailor it in terms of
the people you interact with.

1887
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:20,480
You already simulate your
friends.

1888
01:27:20,960 --> 01:27:24,000
You know what they think, right?
Look at your weak links.

1889
01:27:24,240 --> 01:27:26,960
And you know that person from
University College and the

1890
01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:29,800
person from high school that you
lost track of, you know, and

1891
01:27:29,800 --> 01:27:31,960
like now they run a business
like go look at them on

1892
01:27:31,960 --> 01:27:33,800
LinkedIn, them on Facebook, see
what they're posting.

1893
01:27:34,400 --> 01:27:36,360
Right.
And more than that, the people

1894
01:27:36,360 --> 01:27:38,840
you disagree with, the people
you would never friends, the

1895
01:27:38,840 --> 01:27:41,920
people that you're your enemies,
that's who you really learn

1896
01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:43,880
from.
The smartest people who have

1897
01:27:43,880 --> 01:27:47,120
opposing ideas to you are the
people you really have the

1898
01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:50,800
ability to learn from.
And when we do that in a spirit

1899
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:54,880
of truth seeking, right, not in
arguments, but to arrive at the

1900
01:27:54,880 --> 01:27:57,440
truth, then we don't straw man
arguments.

1901
01:27:57,440 --> 01:28:01,480
We steal man them.
You know, we we, we, we.

1902
01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:03,600
Not everyone is good at
presenting their own argument.

1903
01:28:03,600 --> 01:28:06,000
But if you care about the truth,
you will help the other person

1904
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:09,400
present the best version of
their argument so that you can

1905
01:28:09,400 --> 01:28:12,400
then together arrive at the
truth, right.

1906
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:14,720
And that's a very different
attitude and a very different

1907
01:28:14,720 --> 01:28:17,920
kind of approach.
It is predicated on a, a, a

1908
01:28:17,920 --> 01:28:21,400
respect for reality.
You know this idea that actually

1909
01:28:21,400 --> 01:28:24,960
I don't.
I'm not trying to to win score

1910
01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:27,640
points with you, right or or
against you.

1911
01:28:27,640 --> 01:28:29,280
I'm trying to score points with
you, if you like.

1912
01:28:29,280 --> 01:28:31,000
You know, I'm trying to score.
I'm trying to figure out the

1913
01:28:31,280 --> 01:28:35,560
what is a confusing, chaotic and
difficult to understand world

1914
01:28:36,160 --> 01:28:38,600
and unclear, you know, requires
a bit of intellectual humility

1915
01:28:38,600 --> 01:28:40,240
to say it's unclear what the
next path is.

1916
01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:42,640
Here's some suggestions.
Now let's knock it down together

1917
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:44,320
and let's build it up together
and let's figure this out

1918
01:28:44,320 --> 01:28:47,440
together.
You know when, when companies do

1919
01:28:47,440 --> 01:28:49,240
that, when they create positive
some environments where

1920
01:28:49,240 --> 01:28:51,520
everybody wins, when we win,
right.

1921
01:28:51,960 --> 01:28:55,640
When countries do that, when any
organization does that, that is

1922
01:28:55,640 --> 01:28:58,760
when they their enemies that is
when they out compete other

1923
01:28:58,760 --> 01:29:01,800
groups, right.
And and by the way sometimes

1924
01:29:01,800 --> 01:29:04,360
that requires the competition.
So I I I really, I really do

1925
01:29:04,360 --> 01:29:07,720
believe that Dimbi Samoa is
right that foreign aid is part

1926
01:29:07,720 --> 01:29:12,040
of what allows corrupt African.
You know, regimes succeed and

1927
01:29:12,040 --> 01:29:16,040
and persist because they're
being provided with resources

1928
01:29:16,040 --> 01:29:18,560
that they can then use.
It's true it prevents people

1929
01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:21,240
from starving sometimes because
some percentage goes trickles

1930
01:29:21,240 --> 01:29:25,240
down to them, but it also allows
the elite to not engage in the

1931
01:29:25,240 --> 01:29:28,880
competition with theirs, right?
That would lead to industry.

1932
01:29:31,440 --> 01:29:34,600
Michael, your polymath approach
to to reality at this point, I

1933
01:29:34,600 --> 01:29:36,720
mean, you're literally going
through from field to field,

1934
01:29:36,720 --> 01:29:40,720
bringing them all together.
Which fields do you find you're

1935
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:45,560
most passionate about?
I mean I I don't think it feels,

1936
01:29:45,560 --> 01:29:49,200
I guess like you know, I so I
actually don't like the term

1937
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:51,160
interdisciplinary.
It sounds like that's what I do

1938
01:29:51,160 --> 01:29:53,400
because interdisciplinary still
prioritizes disciplines, right.

1939
01:29:53,400 --> 01:29:55,480
It's trying to say it's
interdisciplinary or

1940
01:29:55,480 --> 01:29:59,840
multidisciplinary for like non
disciplinary or you know I'm an

1941
01:29:59,840 --> 01:30:02,520
undisciplined scholar.
You know, in that like I, you

1942
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:03,920
know, I don't, I don't.
I just don't.

1943
01:30:03,920 --> 01:30:05,640
I don't care where the solutions
come from.

1944
01:30:05,640 --> 01:30:07,600
I don't care where the
approaches come from.

1945
01:30:08,000 --> 01:30:10,320
I think some disciplines are
better and more rigorous than

1946
01:30:10,320 --> 01:30:12,000
others in in approaching
questions.

1947
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:14,120
I, you know, I'm at the longest
pool of economic.

1948
01:30:14,120 --> 01:30:16,400
I think economists are
incredibly rigorous at like

1949
01:30:16,400 --> 01:30:19,280
trying to figure the world out
relative to other disciplines

1950
01:30:19,280 --> 01:30:21,720
that work in the same area.
But as a result of that level of

1951
01:30:21,720 --> 01:30:24,400
rigor, they never tackle some of
the problems that we just don't

1952
01:30:24,400 --> 01:30:27,440
have the the the data, the
methods to actually access.

1953
01:30:27,440 --> 01:30:28,840
And so they just, like, hold off
on that.

1954
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:30,800
And so then we have to rely on
other disciplines, right.

1955
01:30:33,480 --> 01:30:35,320
I've, you know, I've been
critical of my own field,

1956
01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:37,200
psychological behavioral
science, particularly for its

1957
01:30:37,200 --> 01:30:38,480
lack of theory.
You know, I think that's

1958
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:40,480
improving in some areas and not
so much in others.

1959
01:30:40,640 --> 01:30:42,560
Sometimes people don't
understand what I'm saying

1960
01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:45,480
because they just not trained in
that in that they just don't

1961
01:30:45,480 --> 01:30:48,280
have the training to think about
what a theory actually is, you

1962
01:30:48,280 --> 01:30:52,200
know, But I I what I think of is
like, I have problems that I

1963
01:30:52,200 --> 01:30:56,160
want to answer.
I want to understand why humans

1964
01:30:56,160 --> 01:30:58,560
are different than their animals
insofar as that allows me to

1965
01:30:58,560 --> 01:31:01,640
build a better model of human
behaviour and and and humans.

1966
01:31:02,280 --> 01:31:04,760
I want to understand how humans
created the world that we live

1967
01:31:04,760 --> 01:31:05,960
in today.
I want to understand how they

1968
01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:07,520
learn from each other.
I want to understand how

1969
01:31:07,520 --> 01:31:10,560
humanity, the collective brain
you know, operates.

1970
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:13,520
And I want to how we can tackle
some of the biggest problems

1971
01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:17,600
that we face today how how are
we going to deal with a climate

1972
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:19,360
changed world.
So you know in the in the

1973
01:31:19,360 --> 01:31:23,320
beginning of the book I talk
about I, you know, I had this

1974
01:31:23,320 --> 01:31:26,160
moment where I I was reading,
you know, I watched Al Gore's

1975
01:31:26,160 --> 01:31:27,520
documentary An Inconvenient
Truth.

1976
01:31:27,520 --> 01:31:29,360
Right.
And I'm, I'm listening to him

1977
01:31:29,360 --> 01:31:31,360
and I'm just like, I think he's
right.

1978
01:31:31,360 --> 01:31:33,880
And I read the IPCC reports and
I read the Pentagon reports,

1979
01:31:33,880 --> 01:31:36,720
'cause I was like, the military
actually cares about outcomes.

1980
01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:39,000
They're not trying to put, they
just want to know what they need

1981
01:31:39,000 --> 01:31:41,200
to face.
And so I'm reading the Pentagon

1982
01:31:41,200 --> 01:31:42,800
reports.
I'm like, holy shit, we're in

1983
01:31:42,800 --> 01:31:46,640
for some really difficult and
everybody so focused on, they

1984
01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:48,560
slow the economy to save the
planet.

1985
01:31:49,040 --> 01:31:51,880
I'm like, man, listen, like if
your theory says we have to

1986
01:31:51,880 --> 01:31:54,240
change everything about, you
know, fundamental drivers of

1987
01:31:54,240 --> 01:31:56,200
evolution or human behavior,
Like you're like if you're a

1988
01:31:56,200 --> 01:31:58,640
communist, you know, it's like,
and you say, look, it doesn't

1989
01:31:58,640 --> 01:32:00,360
matter what your contribution
is, you're all going to get the

1990
01:32:00,360 --> 01:32:02,840
same thing.
You're going to require huge

1991
01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:04,200
amounts of coercive to make that
work.

1992
01:32:05,040 --> 01:32:08,000
You know, a world where every,
every country is trying to

1993
01:32:08,000 --> 01:32:09,760
compete, every other country,
every company is trying to

1994
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:12,080
compete, every other company and
every person is trying to do

1995
01:32:12,080 --> 01:32:14,400
better than their neighbors,
right?

1996
01:32:14,840 --> 01:32:17,720
Like you're not going to make
slow the economy to save the

1997
01:32:17,720 --> 01:32:19,920
planet.
And look, we're already becoming

1998
01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:22,400
more efficient, right?
Like light bulbs way like, you

1999
01:32:22,400 --> 01:32:23,640
know, the whole, like turn off
the lights.

2000
01:32:23,800 --> 01:32:24,760
Like it.
It's pointless.

2001
01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:27,720
If you have LE DS, they're so
efficient. 1 fluid is going to,

2002
01:32:27,720 --> 01:32:30,320
you know, out outdo like a
year's worth of light bulbs, you

2003
01:32:30,320 --> 01:32:34,200
know.
And so facing these problems, I

2004
01:32:34,200 --> 01:32:36,280
was like, OK, well, what does it
mean to live in a climate

2005
01:32:36,280 --> 01:32:39,040
changed world?
What does it mean for a million

2006
01:32:39,040 --> 01:32:41,440
Bangladeshis and a million
people in the South Pacific to

2007
01:32:41,440 --> 01:32:43,880
be underwater flooding into
neighbouring regions?

2008
01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:45,240
What does that do to the Middle
East?

2009
01:32:45,360 --> 01:32:48,840
What does that do to Europe?
How do we, how do we create

2010
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:51,240
harmonious societies where
people are from very different

2011
01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:52,440
places, running very different
software?

2012
01:32:52,600 --> 01:32:54,520
And the people don't even
understand it because they've

2013
01:32:54,520 --> 01:32:57,480
never seen that experienced it,
understand how different the

2014
01:32:57,480 --> 01:32:59,200
world really is, because they
haven't, personally.

2015
01:32:59,200 --> 01:33:02,280
They just don't understand it.
Their software is incompatible.

2016
01:33:02,280 --> 01:33:04,640
They can't understand what
different software looks like.

2017
01:33:04,800 --> 01:33:06,840
If you're Sweden, you're like, I
just can't understand people

2018
01:33:06,920 --> 01:33:08,360
like that.
People are fundamentally the

2019
01:33:08,360 --> 01:33:11,160
same, right?
And so these kinds of problems

2020
01:33:11,160 --> 01:33:13,240
or innovation, you know, how do
we crack innovation?

2021
01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:15,760
How do we make our companies
more innovative, right?

2022
01:33:15,760 --> 01:33:17,800
How do we become as individuals,
cleverer?

2023
01:33:18,600 --> 01:33:21,400
How does an average person do
more good in the world with

2024
01:33:21,400 --> 01:33:24,400
their capabilities, their gifts,
right?

2025
01:33:24,880 --> 01:33:27,840
These are problems that I
consider to be non like they're

2026
01:33:27,920 --> 01:33:30,720
they're disciplinary problems
and the disciplines can say that

2027
01:33:30,720 --> 01:33:34,080
is something I work on.
But non disciplinary solutions

2028
01:33:34,080 --> 01:33:36,920
are undisciplined solutions
where you take, I don't care

2029
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:39,240
where it comes from, I don't
care who came up with it.

2030
01:33:39,240 --> 01:33:42,000
I'm just going to bring it to
bear on the problem in how I

2031
01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:45,040
approach any of this stuff, and
I think, yeah, I just.

2032
01:33:45,080 --> 01:33:49,200
Taking that overall bigger
picture sort of view is and

2033
01:33:49,200 --> 01:33:52,680
bringing I collab widely.
If I need a skill, I'll bring

2034
01:33:52,680 --> 01:33:55,240
the person on.
When we did the whales and

2035
01:33:55,240 --> 01:33:58,400
dolphins, I did it with an
evolutionary biologist and

2036
01:33:58,400 --> 01:33:59,920
neuroscientist and myself,
right.

2037
01:34:00,520 --> 01:34:02,600
And now when we're doing
octopuses, I, you know, I was

2038
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:05,880
like, holy crap, Octopuses are
way more like, look, whales and

2039
01:34:05,880 --> 01:34:07,640
dolphins, they're mammals,
They're mammals in the ocean,

2040
01:34:07,640 --> 01:34:09,120
but they're mammal.
I understand them.

2041
01:34:09,360 --> 01:34:11,280
And I'm looking at octopus near
anatomy.

2042
01:34:11,280 --> 01:34:13,240
I'm like there's no way I'm not
going to understand.

2043
01:34:13,240 --> 01:34:15,200
So I, you know, I work with
Jennifer Mathers who's a well

2044
01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:17,040
known.
You know, if you watch my

2045
01:34:17,040 --> 01:34:19,240
octopus teacher, you know, she
was one of the scientific

2046
01:34:19,240 --> 01:34:20,840
directors there and you know,
her papers.

2047
01:34:22,640 --> 01:34:26,440
Yeah, she, she works in South
Africa with, yeah, she works in

2048
01:34:26,440 --> 01:34:28,560
South Africans, you know, she,
she was part of that thing, you

2049
01:34:28,560 --> 01:34:29,560
know.
And so she we started

2050
01:34:29,560 --> 01:34:32,600
collaborating with other people.
Tisa Van Dixon, who actually

2051
01:34:32,600 --> 01:34:34,800
works on religion but is deeply
interested in this.

2052
01:34:35,720 --> 01:34:37,960
You know, we have a wonderful
team of research assistants.

2053
01:34:37,960 --> 01:34:40,360
I mean, when you talk about
that, excuse me, I mean octopus.

2054
01:34:40,400 --> 01:34:41,960
Octopus.
Do you say octopi?

2055
01:34:42,040 --> 01:34:44,240
I'm always not sure about that.
Is it octopuses or is it

2056
01:34:44,240 --> 01:34:46,800
octopus?
But they're the most alien

2057
01:34:46,800 --> 01:34:49,760
species that I think of them.
When I think of an octopus, I

2058
01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:52,680
think ultimately the weirdest
thing you could see.

2059
01:34:53,160 --> 01:34:57,400
And when I pitch that is good.
That's right.

2060
01:34:57,640 --> 01:34:58,720
Yeah.
And you know, so that's how we

2061
01:34:58,720 --> 01:35:00,840
pitched the Grand Tack.
Look, it's an alien species

2062
01:35:00,840 --> 01:35:04,520
among us, right?
And and I think like studying

2063
01:35:04,520 --> 01:35:06,960
those kinds of things so we were
studying it because we you know

2064
01:35:06,960 --> 01:35:09,280
when we when I developed the
cultural brain hypothesis model

2065
01:35:09,520 --> 01:35:12,920
it made predictions for social
species and it fits it very

2066
01:35:12,920 --> 01:35:14,800
nicely.
But it also I wasn't expecting

2067
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:17,880
to find this but we discovered
another regime for intelligence

2068
01:35:17,880 --> 01:35:21,720
to evolve in a social species
and I'm like OK wow you know

2069
01:35:21,720 --> 01:35:23,800
this can evolve in a different
you know in a social how did

2070
01:35:23,800 --> 01:35:26,080
that happen.
And the the most you know a

2071
01:35:26,120 --> 01:35:29,120
social like solitary species
short lived doesn't match any of

2072
01:35:29,120 --> 01:35:31,560
the social stuff our octopuses.
So I was like, that's where I'm

2073
01:35:31,560 --> 01:35:34,440
going to test it.
But you're right, by studying

2074
01:35:34,440 --> 01:35:36,920
that species, I'm going to
understand, we already did

2075
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:39,880
understand a very different
alien intelligence.

2076
01:35:39,880 --> 01:35:42,760
And that tells us something
about other alien intelligences

2077
01:35:42,760 --> 01:35:44,880
because now you're beginning to
generalize elegances.

2078
01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:48,080
You know, I've been part of this
great project by the Temples of

2079
01:35:48,080 --> 01:35:51,080
War on Charity Foundation about
diverse intelligences.

2080
01:35:51,360 --> 01:35:53,280
You know, it's like
intelligences as we find them

2081
01:35:53,600 --> 01:35:54,960
across.
Like, are there patterns, are

2082
01:35:54,960 --> 01:35:56,840
there commonalities that we can
talk about?

2083
01:35:57,360 --> 01:35:58,720
Right.
Are there common frameworks for

2084
01:35:58,720 --> 01:36:02,080
understanding this?
And I think there are.

2085
01:36:03,840 --> 01:36:06,280
And I think you're right.
You know, like looking at

2086
01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:09,080
octopus intelligence is at least
gives you an understanding of

2087
01:36:09,480 --> 01:36:10,880
what maybe an AI might look
like.

2088
01:36:12,120 --> 01:36:15,000
Mike, are you familiar with
Michael Levin's work?

2089
01:36:16,640 --> 01:36:17,080
Who?
Sorry.

2090
01:36:17,440 --> 01:36:19,080
Michael Levin, have you heard of
Michael Levin?

2091
01:36:19,200 --> 01:36:19,840
Yes.
Oh, yes.

2092
01:36:19,920 --> 01:36:20,240
Yeah.
Yeah.

2093
01:36:20,240 --> 01:36:22,160
So he's part of the same group.
Oh, is it OK, cool.

2094
01:36:22,160 --> 01:36:23,680
Yeah.
Because I mean when when if you

2095
01:36:23,680 --> 01:36:26,040
chat to him, I think about like
this is getting completely

2096
01:36:26,040 --> 01:36:28,280
insane and when you think about
the concept of intelligence and

2097
01:36:28,280 --> 01:36:32,480
minds, the lines are becoming so
blurry at this point.

2098
01:36:32,480 --> 01:36:35,680
I mean, they look you, they can
we can literally create new

2099
01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:38,240
species of minds.
At this point it's it's it's

2100
01:36:38,240 --> 01:36:42,960
pretty and and scary in the
sense that it it's such weird

2101
01:36:43,360 --> 01:36:45,200
territories that open up so many
ethical dilemmas.

2102
01:36:45,200 --> 01:36:48,800
It's so many.
Questions for ourselves, right.

2103
01:36:48,960 --> 01:36:51,160
Yeah, that's very interesting.
Where the Yeah.

2104
01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:53,400
Do do you?
Are you fascinated by octopuses

2105
01:36:53,400 --> 01:36:55,560
because of this?
But there's this sort of the

2106
01:36:55,560 --> 01:36:58,680
doors it opens to our fully full
understanding of diverse species

2107
01:36:58,680 --> 01:36:59,960
as a whole.
Yeah, that's right.

2108
01:36:59,960 --> 01:37:03,200
You know, it's the hard test.
You know, I have to tell you, I

2109
01:37:03,200 --> 01:37:05,720
love being wrong.
You know, I love, I Love

2110
01:37:05,720 --> 01:37:07,400
Actually being wrong because
that's what I learn, right.

2111
01:37:07,800 --> 01:37:10,320
And I'm not expecting this, you
know, the cultural brain

2112
01:37:10,320 --> 01:37:12,880
hypothesis or the a cultural
brain hypothesis to be a great

2113
01:37:12,880 --> 01:37:15,760
fit for octopuses because we
weren't designing it around them

2114
01:37:15,760 --> 01:37:16,720
and we weren't thinking about
it.

2115
01:37:16,720 --> 01:37:18,800
But I think it'll give, it'll
give me a starting point to

2116
01:37:18,800 --> 01:37:22,160
understand it.
And I think, you know, by

2117
01:37:22,160 --> 01:37:24,640
understanding it like we we're
putting together the largest

2118
01:37:24,640 --> 01:37:29,120
database of octopus Physiology,
brain anatomy, life history and

2119
01:37:29,120 --> 01:37:31,040
behaviour that anyone's ever
created.

2120
01:37:31,040 --> 01:37:33,040
We swept the entire literature,
right.

2121
01:37:33,480 --> 01:37:36,080
And using that database, we're
going to be able to test these

2122
01:37:36,080 --> 01:37:39,160
predictions and other people can
go and test other patients,

2123
01:37:39,160 --> 01:37:41,520
right.
Because we have dietary breath,

2124
01:37:41,520 --> 01:37:43,280
we have ecology, we have a whole
bunch of stuff.

2125
01:37:43,280 --> 01:37:45,400
Like, you know, it's an
amazingly large data set.

2126
01:37:47,800 --> 01:37:49,800
And so, yeah, I am for this very
reason.

2127
01:37:50,880 --> 01:37:51,440
Yeah.
Yes.

2128
01:37:51,600 --> 01:37:53,800
Incredible work.
I mean I can't wait to to to

2129
01:37:53,800 --> 01:37:56,120
look into that and and and
follow that journey.

2130
01:37:56,320 --> 01:37:59,440
Is there anything about this,
about your book, about this

2131
01:37:59,440 --> 01:38:01,600
conversation that you feel that
you haven't touched on, that

2132
01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:04,600
you'd really like to hone in on
and just drive the point home?

2133
01:38:06,120 --> 01:38:08,560
Gosh, you know, I I feel like
you've done a great job like

2134
01:38:09,160 --> 01:38:11,480
getting me to talk about like a
whole bunch of stuff in your

2135
01:38:11,480 --> 01:38:12,280
homework.
Clearly.

2136
01:38:12,280 --> 01:38:16,440
I don't think so.
I mean, honestly, like, I hope

2137
01:38:16,440 --> 01:38:19,680
that people read it, they see
how it resonates with them.

2138
01:38:19,680 --> 01:38:22,400
They ask questions.
They, I don't know, form groups

2139
01:38:22,400 --> 01:38:25,120
and have the questions follow me
on sub stack or something, you

2140
01:38:25,120 --> 01:38:27,720
know.
And you know, you can see like

2141
01:38:27,720 --> 01:38:30,280
if you like the book Sapiens,
for example, you know, one of

2142
01:38:30,280 --> 01:38:32,720
the things that you can see, you
know, I think if this is

2143
01:38:32,720 --> 01:38:34,520
complimentary because it's
closer to the science.

2144
01:38:34,840 --> 01:38:36,520
I'm not a historian, you know,
I'm a scientist.

2145
01:38:37,000 --> 01:38:39,240
And you'll see, like if you look
at the, the endorsements from

2146
01:38:39,240 --> 01:38:42,560
across the sciences, you know,
energy scientists, human

2147
01:38:42,560 --> 01:38:46,080
evolution, biologists,
economists, psychologists, human

2148
01:38:46,080 --> 01:38:49,520
behavior philosophers, like
there's a endorsements from all

2149
01:38:49,520 --> 01:38:51,480
around.
And and then it's because the

2150
01:38:51,480 --> 01:38:53,640
book is really trying to do a
good job of bringing everything

2151
01:38:53,640 --> 01:38:55,800
to bear.
Looking at the the elephant in

2152
01:38:55,800 --> 01:38:57,760
the room, if you like.
Yeah, it's.

2153
01:38:58,320 --> 01:39:01,800
It's it's a wonderful book.
I mean the fact that you.

2154
01:39:02,560 --> 01:39:05,320
You incorporate the science of
who we are, where we're going,

2155
01:39:05,320 --> 01:39:06,720
why we're doing the things we're
doing.

2156
01:39:06,720 --> 01:39:08,880
It's it literally is a theory of
everyone.

2157
01:39:09,360 --> 01:39:11,400
And and I thank you for your
contributions to the field.

2158
01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:12,480
It's been such a pleasure.
Michael.

2159
01:39:12,480 --> 01:39:13,520
Thank you so much for joining
me.

2160
01:39:14,400 --> 01:39:17,200
Thank you for for for this
wonderful conversation, Tim.

2161
01:39:17,200 --> 01:39:18,680
And honestly, I've I've enjoyed
it.

2162
01:39:18,720 --> 01:39:22,720
And you know, good luck to South
Africa in in sports and in

2163
01:39:22,960 --> 01:39:25,400
politics.
I mean, for all those who who

2164
01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:27,920
were watching a listing, go Baca
earlier with your reference.

2165
01:39:27,920 --> 01:39:31,480
And Bri Bri's Barbecue and Baca
Are the Springboks, our rugby

2166
01:39:31,480 --> 01:39:33,440
team?
Yes, yes, yes.

2167
01:39:34,320 --> 01:39:36,440
Michael, thank you so much.
It's such a pleasure to chat to

2168
01:39:36,440 --> 01:39:38,120
you and hopefully we can have
around 2 someday.

2169
01:39:39,720 --> 01:39:41,080
Absolutely.
I'm delighted.

2170
01:39:41,080 --> 01:39:42,560
Thank you so much, Tim, and I
appreciate it.