Michael Levin: What Is The Field Of Diverse Intelligence (DI)? All Possible Intelligent Agents

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Mike, it's so good to see you
again.

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It's very good to see you.
Yeah.

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Pleasure.
Look, Mike, since the last time

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we spoke, I've noticed that your
work has just grown.

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It's tremendously evolving,
becoming so much more complex.

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Your body of knowledge has
increased so much, something

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I've noticed.
I'm not sure if you've picked up

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on this, but you've become a lot
better at articulating these

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concepts.
It's so much clarity.

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Have you picked up on this?
No, I have no idea.

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So that's great.
That's, that's good to hear.

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I hope.
I mean, I work on it all the

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time, but it's actually, it's
hard for me to know what's, you

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know, what's coming across and
what's not.

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So I'm glad, I'm glad to hear
that.

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Yeah, that's important to me.
So that's great.

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I think in that regard it's very
similar to intelligence in

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general.
I mean it's it's it's been such

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a spectrum for you that you
haven't really noticed picked up

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on this.
No, tell me Mike, when you there

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was a time when you did this
paper, I think you wrote an

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article on with Daniel Dennett
on Cognition all the way Down.

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I remember something.
I wanted to start this podcast

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with this concept because I
remember you guys discussing the

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prisoner dilemma and how this
illuminates the idea of the

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computational boundary of the
self.

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I was hoping we could perhaps
start with it and then explore

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these concepts.
Because I find when you ground

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something with an analogy that
people are accustomed to, it

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becomes a lot easier to
understand these complex

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phenomena.
Yeah, yeah.

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Well, let's see.
I don't remember exactly what I

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said, but but I can, I can.
I guess I'll just talk about it.

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The when when people do this,
these simulations, these

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prisoners dilemma simulations,
you know for for economics or

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game theory or conflict to the
theory or things like that.

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What typically happens is that.
Let's say, let's say we imagine

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what they call a spatialized
prisoners dilemma where you have

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multiple agents and they all
sort of play against their

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neighbors and and so on.
You know, the typical way you do

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this is that there's a constant
number of players, So you have

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some constant number of agents.
They all play against each

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other, They all have individual
goals.

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And then you see which
strategies are the best over

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over time.
And the thing about biology is

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that.
There's a, there's an

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interesting and oh and, and and
of course the moves that there's

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two there's two moves they can
make.

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So they can they can at every at
every stage of the game they can

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cooperate or they can defect And
it's very clear in this in this

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paradigm, each agent is is quite
distinct from from the next And

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so I can cooperate with with you
or I can defect and not

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cooperate and so on because I
know who I am, you know who you

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are and so on.
In biology, things are not so

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simple being.
It's actually much more

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interesting because.
Cells, and is a subcellular

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component.
Cells, tissues, organs, and so

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on can all merge in an important
way.

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They can connect to each other
and form higher level units that

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have distinct goals, memories,
competencies, preferences, and

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so on from the different parts.
And so I'll just give you a

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simple example.
In Physarm.

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This is slime mold.
This is actually a.

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It's an experiment that my son
and I did as part of his, you

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know, kind of a home science
unit.

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So, so, so, So you have this,
you have the slime mold and you

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put a piece of oat which the
slime mold wants to eat and it

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starts to crawl towards that
oat.

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And then what you can do is you
can take a razor blade and and

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just cut off that leading edge,
you know, the little piece of it

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that's moving towards the oat.
Now, as soon as you've done

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that, that.
Little piece is a new individual

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and he has a a a decision to
make because he can go and and

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get the oath and exploit that
resource and not have to share

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it with his giant mass of of
Physar and that's back here.

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Or he can first merge back and
and and connect back to the to

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the original mass because they
can reconnect quite easily and

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then and then they go get the
oath.

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Now The thing is that the the
payoff matrix.

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Looks quite different because
when it's by itself, it can sort

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of it can it can do this
calculus of of well, it's better

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for me to go get the food
instead of and not share it with

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this other thing.
But as soon as you connect you

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that, that payoff matrix changes
because there is no me and you,

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there's just we.
And at that point, it doesn't

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make any sense to defect that
you can't defect against

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yourself.
You know then so that payoff

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table of of actions and
consequences.

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Looks quite different because
some of the actions change the

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number of players and that's
really weird, right.

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And so that's the thing that
normally doesn't happen in

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typical prisoners dilemma types
of simulations because all they

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have is cooperate and defect.
There's no way to change the

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number of players.
But we are actually, and I have

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a student working on this.
It's not published yet.

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So I can't even tell you what
what the answers are anything

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because we're still we're still
working on it but but we have a

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we have a a version of
spatialized prisoners dilemma

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where you have cooperate defect.
But also split and merge SO2

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cells can decide that.
And when you do that, the the

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outcome of your action changes
the number of players, which

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radically changes the payoff
table after that.

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So the whole thing is much more
complex, much more sort of

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recurrent and all of that and so
and so the question is, So what

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happens then, right?
What strategies look good under

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those conditions?
So stay tuned for that.

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It will be some months before we
know.

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Do you have a hypothesis
regarding that?

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Yeah, I think that I think that
there will be strategies that

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take advantage of see when you
merge with another unit, you get

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whatever metabolics they, you
know, whatever metabolic

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resources they had at that time.
But more importantly you gain

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information because that that
other individual that you merged

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with has been sitting there
playing against his neighbors

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for quite some time.
So.

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So it has lots of information
and.

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If you have a good way of
merging your information with

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their information in fact it's
it's it's inevitable because

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once you dissolve that boundary
you can't tell whose memories

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are whose anymore.
That's kind of the big thing

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about that kind of memory wiping
the the wiping the identity on

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these memories is a big part of
multicellularity, I I think and

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the and so I think there will be
strategies that.

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Under specific conditions, take
advantage of this merging and

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you'll end up with these larger
scale individuals that do very

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well because they now have the
computational capacity, they

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have the knowledge of of lots of
different pieces and they can

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and and and you immediately, you
know it.

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It sort of forces cooperation.
There's no way for you to defect

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against yourself really.
And so once you're connected

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that tightly, you're a larger
cooperative unit I think and so

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and so that's what that's what
I'm interested in seeing.

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Under what conditions and what
policies are optimal for that

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kind of thing?
I think it's a fascinating

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concept because when you take
the prisoner's delivery, you

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think about the two page D2
prisoner.

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Sorry, I mean they're given an
ultimatum.

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I mean the options are one is
you either tell the judge, I

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would say, or the police officer
that you did commit the crime

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and then you take the blame, the
other guy goes Scott free or

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vice versa.
And the other two options,

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obviously, one, if both of them
just don't say anything and they

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get a much shorter sentence, or
both of them that out to one of

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the one of the others and then
they get no sentence.

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And then when you take that and
incorporate it into cells and

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people, human beings, it's easy
for us to look at us and think,

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OK, we're 30 trillion human
cells, give or take, we're about

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30-9 trillion bacterial cells.
At what point do we consider

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ourselves bacteria or at what
point do we consider ourselves

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human?
Perhaps these questions are

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incorrect and you do a great job
at explaining this with your

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computational boundary of self.
You wanna explore that a bit?

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Yeah, well, so.
So my my computational boundary

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of the self notion is simply a
way to try to be able to think

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about very diverse kinds of.
Beings, diverse kinds of

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intelligences, all all on one's
scale so to speak.

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So, so, so often people are
interested in the brain

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structure or is very specific
behaviors and specific

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environments which makes it very
hard to then compare and

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contrast these kinds of agents
to what's that either don't have

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a brain or work in a completely
different space.

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And so I wanted.
I wanted some kind of a

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framework that enables you to
think about.

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What do all intelligent agents
have in common?

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And so we're talking about
agents that are either very

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large or very tiny.
So, so molecular scale or

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perhaps planetary or larger
scale, very short lived things,

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very long lived kinds of kinds
of agents that are very hard for

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for for humans to typically
recognize as intelligent ones

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that work in weird spaces.
So not just behavior in

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three-dimensional space, but
behavior in.

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Physiological space gene
expression space anatomical

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amorphous space.
You know we're talking about

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things that are evolved designed
things that are some combination

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a hybrid of of those things so
and and so and so the framework

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that I came up with and this was
we we were we were challenged to

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do this by Pranab Das at the.
At a Templeton meeting back in I

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think 2018 or or something like
that, the the framework that I

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wanted to use was was this idea
that what all of these agents

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have in common is the ability to
pursue goals.

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And some of them have very
sophisticated ability to pursue

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goals, some of them have very
simple ones.

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But and and this is this is not
a new idea this goes all the way

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back.
Well it goes even further but

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but William James said it very
well when he said you know

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intelligence is the ability to
reach the same goal by different

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means.
And and he talked about the

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spectrum of you know two magnets
trying to get together versus

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Romeo and Juliet trying to get
together and everything in

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between and and what does it
mean to have competencies to get

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around various obstacles and and
things that are are preventing

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you from reaching your goals.
So my framework is simply that

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you can draw on A2 dimensional
sort of grid.

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You can map out the scale of the
largest goal that an individual

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agent can pursue.
So it's sort of it's almost like

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a Minkowski diagram where you
collapse all of space onto 1

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axis.
Time is the other axis.

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And you can you can draw the
radius of the goals.

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Not not the radius at which
something has sensory capacity

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or can take actions, but the
size of the goal states that

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they can pursue.
So if you're a if, if, if all of

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your goal states are about
local, local sugar

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concentration, right now you're
probably a bacterium or

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something similar.
If your goal states if, if, if

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you have, you know a dog might
have.

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Some memory going back or some
predictive capacity going

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forward but they're never going
to care about what happens a

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month from now three towns over.
It's just impossible the right

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to as far as we know and all of
this of course is these are

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empirical questions we don't
know ahead of time until we

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tested what creatures can and
can't pursue as goals.

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But you know, we it's likely
that something like a dog has a

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has a radius that.
Has a a a well defined kind of

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time horizon and and and space
spatial boundary and beyond that

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it's it's not going to care
right and and and you know and

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if and if you care about what
happens to the earth thousands

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of years from now what happens
to the human race well you know

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what the World Peace and the
financial markets and in the

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next century you're probably a
human because these are these

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are gigantic kind of cognitive
light cones.

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And then and then you know if if
you're some some alien species

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that has the ability to
literally care about every other

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being on your planet right in
the linear range.

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I mean humans I don't think can
do that but but but if there is

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a creature somewhere that is
that level of advance where they

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can actually have care and
compassion for for every being

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and they work towards it, they
would have a much larger

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cognitive lycoe than we do.
You know, more more advanced

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than that way, so.
And so, so that's the idea,

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right.
And and and that idea leads you

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to develop practical
experimental tools to to to look

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for the the size of the boundary
for any given agent.

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And so you can ask for cells,
for tissues, for organs, for

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swarms.
What problem space are they

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working in in that problem
space?

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What are the goals that they're
trying to reach?

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What are the size of those goals
and what are the competencies?

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How good are they at getting
those goals met?

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00:12:55,030 --> 00:12:57,590
When things change, yeah, when
the novel per novel

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perturbations, novel
environments and so on, and you

241
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can do experiments.
And that's really key, Yeah,

242
00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:04,230
that all of this, this is not
philosophy.

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00:13:04,230 --> 00:13:07,870
This is this is meant to advance
empirical research by by

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focusing the questions on people
will specify hypothesis about

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what goals a particular system
can reach and then we may do

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experiments and then we find out
that yes it can.

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Get around certain kinds of
perturbations but not others and

248
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then and then we know who's
right and who's wrong.

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Something like a very common
theme regarding your work.

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I mean there's a lot of people
who on the one hand don't like

251
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this idea of of scientists
delving into this or diving into

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this philosophy realm and and
trying to take over this this

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issue of thinking or thought
processes.

254
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But then on the other side,
you've got many philosophers,

255
00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,480
people like Dennis in general,
who love this idea of of

256
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,880
scientists coming into their
field and teaching them so many

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new concepts.
I mean, your goal, you make it

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very clear, is it's not.
I think I wrote it down here.

259
00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,880
It's not to anthropomorphize
morphogenesis.

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The point is to naturalize
cognition, and I think that's

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00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:03,880
pretty cool.
It's a great way to sort of

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00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,680
frame this process.
How do you feel this has been

263
00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:09,800
received from the scientific
community from a philosophical

264
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perspective?
Yeah well and and and I can't

265
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speak for for everybody and you
know in all these communities I

266
00:14:16,290 --> 00:14:19,410
you know I have no idea I don't
I don't I don't generally

267
00:14:19,410 --> 00:14:23,330
monitor too much what what you
know how people react to stuff

268
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so so I don't know exactly but
but but I'll tell you what I

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think from from the limited the
kind of data sample that I have

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I think that I think that some
of these ideas.

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Really catch a lot of Flack from
both sides which is interesting.

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So people who are very it's sort
of they have a very molecular

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based reductionist or bottom up
kind of perspective very, very

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physical oriented.
They tend to not like this

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because they don't want.
Aspects of of kind of mental

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talk getting back into you know
they they they they they feel

277
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that we should we should do get
as far as possible away from

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agential kinds of kinds of
vocabulary.

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That this is sort of a
prescientific magical thinking

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And that and that.
You know the promise that they

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that they sort of make to us is
that don't worry, at some point

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we can, we can, everything will
be nicely explained at the level

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of molecules.
You know it's kind of it's it's

284
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not real reductionism in that
they typically don't want to go

285
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below molecules.
So nobody feels like they should

286
00:15:25,330 --> 00:15:27,850
be talking about quantum foam.
They just kind of want want to

287
00:15:27,850 --> 00:15:30,250
they like chemistry and and and
they want to talk about

288
00:15:30,250 --> 00:15:33,130
molecules but but but they pick
their level and they think

289
00:15:33,130 --> 00:15:35,450
that's it and that we shouldn't
we shouldn't be talking about

290
00:15:35,650 --> 00:15:40,810
things that what do things want
and you know what do agents

291
00:15:40,810 --> 00:15:45,370
remember and do the agents have
and and and so and so they don't

292
00:15:45,370 --> 00:15:46,930
they don't like this stuff for
the for that reason.

293
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,280
Funny enough, the opposite camp,
which are the organicists who

294
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,840
have been fighting this for for
hundreds of years and arguing

295
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,600
about the fact that no, in fact
some some things in the world,

296
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,040
in fact biology and living
things and maybe ecosystems and

297
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,600
cells and what not.
You know, they they do have

298
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,320
these kind of agential
properties and we need to, we

299
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,840
absolutely need to not explain
that away or pretend it doesn't

300
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,800
exist.
Those people really often tend

301
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:17,440
to get upset with me too,
because.

302
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,480
What they don't like is the fact
that I have what they call

303
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,040
machines on the same spectrum
and so they feel that if we put

304
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,440
machines what what And defining
what a machine is, is really non

305
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,360
trivial.
But, but but they feel that if

306
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,280
we put some of these simpler
mechanisms, like like what

307
00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,000
currently we recognize as
machines on the same spectrum,

308
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,840
that it's a slippery slope to
losing whatever magic, whatever.

309
00:16:42,060 --> 00:16:45,060
Respect we're supposed to have
for for these for these

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00:16:45,060 --> 00:16:48,100
incredible living, living beings
and that and that they feel very

311
00:16:48,100 --> 00:16:51,260
strongly that we need to keep a
sharp binary distinction between

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00:16:51,260 --> 00:16:56,180
machines and living organisms.
I I think that's profoundly

313
00:16:56,180 --> 00:16:58,900
wrong.
And I think you know, the the,

314
00:16:58,940 --> 00:17:03,140
the, the challenge and the
opportunity here is precisely to

315
00:17:03,140 --> 00:17:09,810
develop a.
A A A principled science of of a

316
00:17:09,810 --> 00:17:14,930
continuum that tells us what in
what cases are you better off

317
00:17:14,930 --> 00:17:18,609
using the tools of simple
machines and in what cases are

318
00:17:18,609 --> 00:17:22,089
you better off using the tools
of complex cognitive beings and

319
00:17:22,089 --> 00:17:24,490
everything in between.
We have lots of tools all across

320
00:17:24,490 --> 00:17:28,170
that spectrum and and I think it
is the same spectrum.

321
00:17:28,170 --> 00:17:31,610
And anytime you ask somebody to
define what they mean by

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00:17:31,610 --> 00:17:34,790
machine.
They either typically, you know

323
00:17:34,790 --> 00:17:37,270
from in this in the context of
this kind of debate, they

324
00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:39,670
typically either have no
definition or they have one that

325
00:17:39,670 --> 00:17:42,670
would have been good maybe in
the 1950s, but certainly not

326
00:17:42,950 --> 00:17:46,630
after that.
And so I I think that binary

327
00:17:46,630 --> 00:17:49,310
distinction and Josh Bongard and
I have have written on this very

328
00:17:49,310 --> 00:17:52,910
specifically that I I think I
think this binary distinction.

329
00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:57,780
Is just is just completely you
know it leads all sorts of

330
00:17:57,780 --> 00:18:00,460
pseudo problems.
It doesn't help research, it's

331
00:18:00,740 --> 00:18:03,020
you know it's a non starter.
So we really do need to

332
00:18:03,020 --> 00:18:06,980
naturalize all this and show
that that that there is a single

333
00:18:06,980 --> 00:18:10,420
continuum and that we need to
develop tools across all across

334
00:18:10,420 --> 00:18:13,380
that continuum and have an
empirical research program of

335
00:18:13,380 --> 00:18:15,860
when do you deploy each
particular tool and when does it

336
00:18:15,860 --> 00:18:18,780
work for you and so on.
You know I think I completely

337
00:18:18,780 --> 00:18:22,420
agree with you regarding almost
everything you just said because

338
00:18:23,570 --> 00:18:26,050
often when people ask specific
questions specifically regarding

339
00:18:26,050 --> 00:18:27,930
consciousness, I mean this
podcast is called Mind Body

340
00:18:27,930 --> 00:18:29,570
Solution.
Obviously paying homage to the

341
00:18:29,570 --> 00:18:31,970
mind body problem, what is
consciousness becomes a very

342
00:18:31,970 --> 00:18:34,370
fundamental question.
But I often think about it that

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00:18:34,370 --> 00:18:36,290
the consciousness is is more
like a verb.

344
00:18:36,290 --> 00:18:38,570
It's it's not really something
that's an on off switch.

345
00:18:39,570 --> 00:18:44,530
It's very difficult to put that
switch on in general when we

346
00:18:44,530 --> 00:18:46,690
talk about anything.
So, so when you're talking about

347
00:18:46,690 --> 00:18:50,280
cognition, intelligence, the
self, do you think it's becoming

348
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,920
harder to explain these concepts
because of this lack of a

349
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,120
definition or do you think it
becomes more and more exciting

350
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,040
to discuss these concepts
because of this continuum of of

351
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,800
exploration?
Well, I I certainly think it's

352
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,160
we're in a better place now than
we were.

353
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,640
I think, I think, I think it's
it is, it is exciting and it's

354
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,880
getting better, but you know
specifically with the issue of

355
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,760
consciousness, so, so I've been
pretty careful up until now.

356
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,600
To say very little about
consciousness per se, right.

357
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,920
I mostly talk about very very
functional publicly observable

358
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:23,160
behaviors.
So.

359
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,240
So intelligent behavior is
problem solving and you know

360
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,000
these these cognitive capacities
that are kind of like

361
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:35,120
experimentally observable third
person kind of science and so.

362
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,800
So that was on purpose not not
not but, but but not because I.

363
00:19:38,220 --> 00:19:39,980
You know, it's not that I don't
think consciousness is an

364
00:19:39,980 --> 00:19:41,940
important problem.
I think it's it's an extremely

365
00:19:41,940 --> 00:19:43,900
important problem.
I don't think it it doesn't

366
00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:46,780
exist.
I don't think that the mind body

367
00:19:46,780 --> 00:19:48,780
kind of issues are not
important.

368
00:19:48,780 --> 00:19:52,180
They are.
But I do think it's important to

369
00:19:52,180 --> 00:19:57,900
make as much progress as we can
on quote, UN quote easy problems

370
00:19:58,020 --> 00:20:02,300
without immediately sort of
combining them with with

371
00:20:02,300 --> 00:20:03,980
extremely difficult problems.
Right.

372
00:20:03,980 --> 00:20:07,020
And so and so I, you know, once
once you start talking about

373
00:20:07,020 --> 00:20:10,240
consciousness.
Things get off the rails very

374
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,440
quickly and so, so I've wanted
to for most of my stuff, which

375
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,400
up until now has not really
needed to talk about

376
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,640
consciousness per se.
I wanted to kind of let that

377
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,440
stuff cook in its own area.
That doesn't.

378
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,240
That doesn't get into all of
those issues about

379
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,880
consciousness, but I do think
it's an important problem.

380
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,600
I am writing some stuff about it
now that should hopefully be

381
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,520
out, I don't know, probably
early 24.

382
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,200
And I think, I guess, I guess
the only thing I'll I'll say

383
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:41,040
about it now is that typically
when when people talk about

384
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,080
consciousness, they typically
not everybody but but often

385
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:49,000
people think about the sort of
input side of things meaning

386
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,520
what the what you know that the
standard, the standard

387
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,960
definition is what does it feel
like to be a whatever, you know

388
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,520
a bad or or a human robot or
whatever.

389
00:20:57,720 --> 00:20:59,800
You know what's it like to
what's it like to be.

390
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,080
So they focus on the experience
which is the kind of sensory

391
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:08,800
side if you will and and and and
what I think what I think is is

392
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,240
probably more I mean they're
both important but but the thing

393
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,560
that's that needs more emphasis
is the actuation side.

394
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,800
It's the action side.
What is it like to do to be to

395
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,200
be an agent that has the ability
to do things and and the and the

396
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,640
reason the reason I think I
think this isn't getting any

397
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:29,120
attention is this There is a
there is a theory of mind called

398
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,640
epiphenomenalism and an
epiphenomenalism.

399
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:36,410
You sort of assume that, OK, you
can say that yes, these

400
00:21:39,330 --> 00:21:42,490
conscious sensory states that I
have are real, but they don't do

401
00:21:42,490 --> 00:21:45,370
anything.
So the input side is real, but

402
00:21:45,370 --> 00:21:46,890
there is no output side.
It's a view.

403
00:21:46,890 --> 00:21:49,050
I'm not saying I support it, but
it's a view.

404
00:21:49,650 --> 00:21:52,410
What doesn't exist, to my
knowledge is the opposite side.

405
00:21:52,410 --> 00:21:54,850
I've never see, I've never heard
anybody have a view that says,

406
00:21:54,970 --> 00:21:57,370
well, the action part is real,
the free will is real, but the

407
00:21:57,370 --> 00:21:59,970
sensory stuff is, is an
illusion, right.

408
00:22:00,010 --> 00:22:01,530
I've never heard of that, that
view.

409
00:22:01,610 --> 00:22:03,730
So the fact that there's only
one, you know, it's not

410
00:22:03,730 --> 00:22:06,530
symmetric, there's only one, one
version of this tells you that

411
00:22:06,530 --> 00:22:10,530
people are very much into the
kind of perception side and not

412
00:22:10,530 --> 00:22:13,490
so much into the action side.
And and and I mean, I mean some

413
00:22:13,490 --> 00:22:15,770
obviously are people who work on
active inference and things like

414
00:22:15,770 --> 00:22:17,690
that.
Of course pay pay attention to

415
00:22:17,690 --> 00:22:22,020
both sides of the equation but
but I think I think that that is

416
00:22:22,060 --> 00:22:26,340
really the mark of the agent is
sure what does it feel like But

417
00:22:26,340 --> 00:22:29,700
more even more importantly what
do I do next That's really what

418
00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:33,620
what drives all of this is that
is that I need to know what to

419
00:22:33,620 --> 00:22:36,780
do next what what's what's my
next move as an agent And that

420
00:22:36,780 --> 00:22:40,060
that I think is is is really
fundamental to being and and I

421
00:22:40,060 --> 00:22:41,900
think it's going to be
fundamental to the consciousness

422
00:22:41,900 --> 00:22:46,370
problem too it's going to be
it's it's much of it is all of

423
00:22:46,370 --> 00:22:48,850
the decisions about where is the
boundary between you and the

424
00:22:48,850 --> 00:22:51,770
outside world and all these
kinds of things that are that

425
00:22:51,770 --> 00:22:54,490
are fundamental to defining
yourself and what are you you

426
00:22:54,490 --> 00:22:58,450
know and all of those are driven
by the need to act to choose a

427
00:22:58,450 --> 00:23:01,770
next action and so so that's
that's kind of where where I

428
00:23:01,890 --> 00:23:03,370
look at.
Well, I'm looking forward to

429
00:23:03,370 --> 00:23:05,970
your work in consciousness.
I mean, I'm obviously excited

430
00:23:05,970 --> 00:23:07,810
for it.
Are you able to give a precise

431
00:23:07,810 --> 00:23:10,250
definition of what you say
consciousness is at this point?

432
00:23:12,810 --> 00:23:17,520
No, and I think that.
It was against.

433
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,040
I mean, what we just spoke about
giving a precise definition in

434
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,440
that way much impossible.
I mean definitions are good.

435
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:26,600
There's kind of a trade off.
I mean you definitely don't want

436
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,200
to talk about things without
having some definition.

437
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,960
I, I this happens all the time.
I hear a lot of people talking

438
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,200
about sentience, you know,
whether it be planned to

439
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,560
sentience or robot sentience is
that that thing can't be

440
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,320
sentient.
I'm like, have you got a

441
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,880
definition of what you mean?
Because that's a really hard

442
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,960
thing to define, really.
So.

443
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,160
So definitions are important.
At the same time, I'm, I think

444
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,280
that too early in the game
trying to come up with us with

445
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,720
a, with a very, you know, strict
definition early in the game.

446
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,000
And I do think we're still early
in that game, even though people

447
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,680
have been thinking about this
for thousands of years.

448
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:03,400
Nevertheless, what what I what I
will say about it is, is this I

449
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:11,310
think that I think that we need
to be clear.

450
00:24:11,310 --> 00:24:14,230
And then I think then it talks
about this in in one of his

451
00:24:14,230 --> 00:24:15,990
papers, this idea of a bait and
the switch.

452
00:24:16,230 --> 00:24:18,150
You know you you say you're
going to talk about consciences

453
00:24:18,150 --> 00:24:20,670
but what you really end up doing
is telling a story about

454
00:24:20,670 --> 00:24:23,990
Physiology and behavior right.
And so and so I really think we

455
00:24:23,990 --> 00:24:28,710
need to keep clear if you think
if there there's all the science

456
00:24:28,710 --> 00:24:31,870
that we can do in third person.
And the mark of science that you

457
00:24:31,870 --> 00:24:35,630
do in third person is that you
don't change much if at all,

458
00:24:35,670 --> 00:24:38,010
doing the experiment.
So you do a certain experiment

459
00:24:38,010 --> 00:24:40,610
and maybe you learn something
which in which does change you a

460
00:24:40,610 --> 00:24:42,690
little bit.
But but you're still the same.

461
00:24:42,690 --> 00:24:45,450
You're you're standing away from
the experiment at some distance,

462
00:24:45,490 --> 00:24:48,130
so to speak.
You're still whoever you are,

463
00:24:48,130 --> 00:24:50,410
you made, you know, you've done
the experiment and you've

464
00:24:50,410 --> 00:24:53,010
learned something.
If you're going to work on

465
00:24:53,010 --> 00:24:54,890
consciousness, there's no way to
do third.

466
00:24:55,090 --> 00:24:58,170
I don't believe there's any good
way to do third person research

467
00:24:58,170 --> 00:25:00,370
on consciousness.
It's very hard.

468
00:25:00,530 --> 00:25:03,330
Most people who do that are
really studying Physiology and

469
00:25:03,330 --> 00:25:05,470
behavior.
If you're going to do actual

470
00:25:05,470 --> 00:25:08,270
experiments, unconsciousness,
you're part of the experiment.

471
00:25:08,550 --> 00:25:11,430
You are going to be changed by
that experiment.

472
00:25:11,470 --> 00:25:15,890
So for example, if you want to
know what it's like to be

473
00:25:16,090 --> 00:25:20,690
something, the only the only
actual way that you're going to

474
00:25:20,770 --> 00:25:25,210
get that level of information is
to, in some important way, merge

475
00:25:25,210 --> 00:25:27,610
with that agent.
So maybe we connect brains in

476
00:25:27,610 --> 00:25:31,090
some way, right the, you know,
some now, now, now if you and I

477
00:25:31,090 --> 00:25:33,890
connect our brains, I don't find
out what it's like to be you,

478
00:25:33,890 --> 00:25:35,690
and you don't find out what it's
like to be me.

479
00:25:35,810 --> 00:25:38,090
Instead, we find out what it's
like to be us.

480
00:25:38,250 --> 00:25:42,690
So it's not quite the same, but
nevertheless that's as close as

481
00:25:42,690 --> 00:25:46,200
you're going to get.
And otherwise, you know I can, I

482
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,680
think I described this at the
end of the of of my tame paper

483
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,880
where you know you can sort of
imagine like doing pure third

484
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,960
person neuroscience.
You get some electrode stuck in

485
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,360
somebody's brain and you're sort
of reading on the screen and

486
00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:00,720
then you decide that you know
what this the screen and and all

487
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,720
this stuff.
It's a low low bandwidth.

488
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,000
I really need to get in there.
And so you have you know some

489
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,440
kind of a brain interface on
your own that's that's

490
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,920
delivering the data right into
your brain and then eventually

491
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:12,800
you say, yeah, that that's not
good enough either.

492
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,280
I'm just going to fuse my the
brain directly to to this other

493
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,800
brain and you can do that, you
know by engineering and then

494
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,480
then then now you're into first
person science right.

495
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,120
And so you use you sort of
smoothly and and that's

496
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,120
experiments with, I don't know,
people talk about experiments

497
00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:35,760
with psychedelics and and
meditation and personal

498
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,720
development, whatever, studying
consciousness, you're not going

499
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,840
to be the same coming out of it
as you win.

500
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,200
And that's, I think, the only
way that you can really steady

501
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,400
consciousness per day.
Well, I think that in that

502
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,120
regard you're on one step close.
I mean, Chalmers often said the

503
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:53,080
best way to sort of approach a
problem is defining.

504
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,640
It is defining the problem
within the problem in itself.

505
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,840
So like understanding that there
is a problem, which in your case

506
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,240
seems to be this action dilemma.
I mean it seems to be.

507
00:27:02,070 --> 00:27:05,070
No one seems to be incorporating
that sort of agential action

508
00:27:05,070 --> 00:27:07,230
nature behind it.
It reminds me of something Kevin

509
00:27:07,230 --> 00:27:09,990
Mitchell says in one of his
books, Free Agents, He talks

510
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:13,590
about I move, therefore I am.
Is that a lot of times?

511
00:27:14,430 --> 00:27:15,030
Yeah.
Yeah.

512
00:27:15,030 --> 00:27:16,950
No, that's that's that's exactly
right.

513
00:27:16,950 --> 00:27:21,830
And all the work on active
inference, I didn't mean to say

514
00:27:21,830 --> 00:27:23,030
that nobody's paying attention
to it.

515
00:27:23,030 --> 00:27:27,600
I just meant that it's, you know
in the general, you know kind of

516
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,760
the the, the, the field of
people who think about this

517
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,960
stuff, There's a lot more
emphasis on the, on the internal

518
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,400
perceptions and and so on than
than on the actions.

519
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,120
But yeah, I think, I think
that's right.

520
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:42,840
I think it's movement and and I
would, I would extend that to

521
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:49,160
say that it's movement not just
in three-dimensional space which

522
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,520
is we as he first recognized,
but it's movement in other

523
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,680
problem spaces.
So changes of gene expression,

524
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,960
figuring out, well, what gene do
I turn on next, changes in

525
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,800
morphogenesis.
You know, how many fingers

526
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,720
should should this arm have and
should we be an arm at all or

527
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,680
should we be a leg or a foot.
And movement in in metabolic

528
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,160
space, movement in physiological
space, who knows, you know,

529
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:11,880
linguistic space.
So there's all kinds of other

530
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,680
spaces.
Yeah.

531
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,200
The necessity to act in all
these spaces defines who or what

532
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,880
you are based on what you have
at, what you have control over

533
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,360
and what the, you know, what you
do.

534
00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:25,820
Also of course, the recursive
self model of of what you think

535
00:28:25,820 --> 00:28:29,180
you have control over and so on.
You just reminded me of another

536
00:28:29,180 --> 00:28:33,180
one, cuz I said Kevin says I am,
I move, therefore I am.

537
00:28:33,380 --> 00:28:37,620
Cole, for instance, says I am.
Therefore I think and it sort of

538
00:28:37,620 --> 00:28:40,180
interplays with it.
When I spoke to Cole, he was

539
00:28:40,180 --> 00:28:43,900
telling me about your work, your
upcoming work and the work that

540
00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:47,620
Chris Fields, Mark Solms, all
you guys are doing some amazing

541
00:28:47,620 --> 00:28:50,830
work in these fields.
What excites you about this at

542
00:28:50,830 --> 00:28:52,710
the moment and what what are you
guys currently?

543
00:28:52,710 --> 00:28:54,830
What's this main goal at the
moment?

544
00:28:55,470 --> 00:28:56,470
Yeah.
Yeah.

545
00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:58,430
Well I mean I'm just.
I'm just excited.

546
00:28:58,430 --> 00:29:00,190
I mean what a what a group of
people to be part of.

547
00:29:00,390 --> 00:29:03,070
Like I'm just thrilled to death
to be able to work with Chris

548
00:29:03,070 --> 00:29:06,030
and Carl and Mark.
Amazing amazing minds.

549
00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:10,310
I'm.
Trying to mark next week.

550
00:29:10,670 --> 00:29:12,350
We've spoken before.
We're both from Cape Town, so I

551
00:29:12,350 --> 00:29:14,350
mean, you guys are doing some
incredible stuff.

552
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:16,920
All separately, very different
work.

553
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,120
But when it comes together it
seems like such a culmination of

554
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:26,440
joy from my perspective, Yeah,
yeah, well I'm super excited

555
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:31,400
about it because I think that we
have a chance to say something

556
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,600
quite rigorous about what minds
are and where they come from.

557
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,640
The thing is that for you know
for how many thousands of years

558
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,080
various pre scientific human
societies have had this idea

559
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,550
that you know there's a spirit
in each rock and every tree has

560
00:29:46,550 --> 00:29:49,710
a you know you can, you know the
environment is a being and all

561
00:29:49,710 --> 00:29:51,390
the trees and all the rocks and
everything.

562
00:29:52,030 --> 00:29:56,190
So it's one thing to say that,
but it's something else to have

563
00:29:56,190 --> 00:30:01,520
a rigorous quantitative model
that tells you how much.

564
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:02,840
Right.
What kind and how much.

565
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,880
So here's a, here's a, here's a
system, and it might be a rock

566
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,400
and it might be a computer and
it might be some sort of robot

567
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,040
or a synthetic, you know,
synthetic biobot or whatever.

568
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,560
But to really have the tools to
be able to say, OK, what, what

569
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,800
kind of cognition and how much
is here and how do I, how do I

570
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,840
best relate to this agent?
What's the most effective way of

571
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,640
relating to them?
What's the most ethical way of

572
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,560
relating to them to finally
start to develop some tools that

573
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,520
allow you to do that in a really
principled way.

574
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,000
I think is it is a huge advance
over the old insight that you

575
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,800
know mind is everywhere like
that's that's a good first you

576
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,840
know zero order pass at this but
but now but now we're actually

577
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,880
able to to to to make that much
more specific much more

578
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,680
defensible actually integrated
into the rest of science because

579
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,020
this is I feel very strongly
about this that these ideas are

580
00:30:55,020 --> 00:30:57,100
not just things that you can
have philosophical arguments

581
00:30:57,100 --> 00:30:59,660
about And then some people say
some people you know I've heard

582
00:30:59,660 --> 00:31:04,420
this too I'll give a talk and
then some people say wow we we

583
00:31:04,420 --> 00:31:06,580
love the new data and the new
capabilities but we wish you'd

584
00:31:06,580 --> 00:31:08,740
stop talking about all this
philosophical stuff like it's

585
00:31:08,740 --> 00:31:11,180
it's it's like we you know we
don't like it it's just stop

586
00:31:11,180 --> 00:31:14,380
talking about it let's just do
the experiment and and my point

587
00:31:14,380 --> 00:31:17,180
is you know there's a reason why
nobody did these experiments

588
00:31:17,180 --> 00:31:19,820
before and it's because the
philosophy is actually really

589
00:31:19,820 --> 00:31:23,060
critical to be being able to
have these kinds of ideas.

590
00:31:23,060 --> 00:31:26,930
Right.
And so making all this testable

591
00:31:26,930 --> 00:31:31,330
and connected to the rest of the
scientific enterprise where you

592
00:31:31,330 --> 00:31:36,570
know for example my, my, my you
know unusual views on cellular

593
00:31:36,570 --> 00:31:39,600
agency and all that they
actually have specific

594
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,280
implications for regenerative
medicine.

595
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,120
And if you're into regenerative
medicine you can't really ignore

596
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,240
all this stuff it's part of you
know and and and hopefully it'll

597
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:52,640
it'll it'll be you know even
more kind of impactful if once,

598
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,160
once we you know once we get
there closer to actual clinical

599
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,600
applications.
So, so so I'm just super excited

600
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,160
I think.
I think each of these people

601
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:07,390
that you mentioned has a really
amazing grasp on multiple fields

602
00:32:07,390 --> 00:32:12,030
you know so, so so physics and
in the case of Mark you know

603
00:32:12,030 --> 00:32:14,510
what psychoanalysis and and and
stuff like that, which I think

604
00:32:14,510 --> 00:32:17,590
is very important, you know
computation and and biology.

605
00:32:18,550 --> 00:32:22,030
This is the most exciting area I
think there is in science right

606
00:32:22,030 --> 00:32:24,350
now is this, this weaving
together of these of these

607
00:32:24,350 --> 00:32:30,430
different areas to to find out
what is common to to different

608
00:32:30,430 --> 00:32:32,430
kinds of minds and how do we
recognize them and how do we

609
00:32:32,430 --> 00:32:36,670
build them and how do we relate?
Is is there a name for this

610
00:32:36,670 --> 00:32:38,070
project?
I mean, it seems like such

611
00:32:38,590 --> 00:32:40,030
almost like superheroes coming
together.

612
00:32:40,030 --> 00:32:43,910
This is like an Avengers
assembling to sort of conquer

613
00:32:43,910 --> 00:32:45,350
the mind.
That's what it feels like to

614
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:47,750
someone like me who's been
watching this part of it

615
00:32:47,750 --> 00:32:49,470
somehow, but also watching it
from the outside.

616
00:32:49,470 --> 00:32:51,870
I mean, what what are you guys
really doing?

617
00:32:51,870 --> 00:32:55,590
What's what's the end goal here?
At least I love that idea.

618
00:32:55,590 --> 00:32:58,870
Maybe maybe I can get mid
Journey to to to make A to make

619
00:32:58,870 --> 00:33:00,510
an Avengers style poster with
these guys.

620
00:33:00,670 --> 00:33:01,550
That would be.
That would be fun.

621
00:33:02,750 --> 00:33:05,390
Let's see.
Well, is there a name for it?

622
00:33:06,110 --> 00:33:08,830
Is there a name and who's part
of the team and what's really

623
00:33:08,830 --> 00:33:10,590
happening?
Yeah.

624
00:33:10,710 --> 00:33:15,950
Well, I mean, so.
So I think, I think one way to

625
00:33:15,950 --> 00:33:19,390
name this field is it's a field
of diverse intelligence.

626
00:33:19,670 --> 00:33:21,950
Now the field of diverse
intelligence has lots of, I mean

627
00:33:21,950 --> 00:33:25,710
I'm certainly it's not my job to
say who's in and who's out of

628
00:33:25,710 --> 00:33:27,990
what team.
There are there are many people

629
00:33:29,030 --> 00:33:30,910
that that work on diverse
intelligence, right.

630
00:33:30,910 --> 00:33:33,670
So you got, you got people who
work on decoding whale songs and

631
00:33:33,950 --> 00:33:37,270
and and and various philosophers
and you've got people doing

632
00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:39,990
minimal matters.
So you know these droplets that

633
00:33:39,990 --> 00:33:42,950
run mazes and that do you know
minimal active matter and stuff

634
00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:46,950
like that molecular chemotaxis.
I don't know if you've seen some

635
00:33:46,950 --> 00:33:48,830
of these papers, just amazing.
You know, you got these

636
00:33:49,150 --> 00:33:53,030
individual molecules that can do
chemotaxis instead of bacteria

637
00:33:53,070 --> 00:33:55,130
doing doing it.
So.

638
00:33:55,130 --> 00:33:58,290
So this field is, this field is
huge and and highly diverse as

639
00:33:58,290 --> 00:34:01,410
it should be.
And so I I like if I have to

640
00:34:01,410 --> 00:34:03,930
boil it down sometimes when
people ask, I'll say it's a

641
00:34:03,930 --> 00:34:05,610
field of diverse intelligence
research.

642
00:34:06,650 --> 00:34:08,330
Yeah.
And many people are doing, you

643
00:34:08,330 --> 00:34:11,409
know, many different things.
I think that each of the people

644
00:34:11,409 --> 00:34:15,010
that you named has their own
research agenda in addition to

645
00:34:15,010 --> 00:34:16,370
the stuff that we're doing
together.

646
00:34:17,090 --> 00:34:22,730
All I can really talk about is
what I think the the goal here

647
00:34:22,730 --> 00:34:26,449
isn't.
To me the goal is to establish a

648
00:34:26,449 --> 00:34:31,969
a firm rigorous foundation for
understanding the spectrum

649
00:34:31,969 --> 00:34:36,050
between what we call matter and
what we call mind.

650
00:34:36,210 --> 00:34:39,130
I think it's a continuum.
I think that the the, the

651
00:34:39,130 --> 00:34:43,929
biggest question for all of all
is this idea of of how minds

652
00:34:44,010 --> 00:34:46,770
come to be and how and how do
they scale in our physical

653
00:34:46,770 --> 00:34:49,889
universe.
And for me it's it's to take

654
00:34:49,889 --> 00:34:54,900
insights on that question and
use them to drive applications

655
00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:57,420
that improve people's embodied
experience in the world.

656
00:34:57,660 --> 00:35:00,140
So that means by that means
regenerate medicine, that means

657
00:35:00,260 --> 00:35:03,620
bioengineering, that means you
know, environmental remediation,

658
00:35:03,620 --> 00:35:06,980
all of the all of the things
that will improve the lived

659
00:35:06,980 --> 00:35:09,740
experience for all living,
living beings.

660
00:35:09,740 --> 00:35:12,500
And so, so practical
applications of these really

661
00:35:12,500 --> 00:35:15,660
fundamental questions, I think
we're all sort of working

662
00:35:16,260 --> 00:35:17,940
towards that in some in some
way.

663
00:35:18,340 --> 00:35:21,220
I mean when call mention this my
first thought was.

664
00:35:21,220 --> 00:35:22,820
I mean I know how complicated
the.

665
00:35:23,340 --> 00:35:26,500
Academic system is in general
getting grants, getting research

666
00:35:26,500 --> 00:35:28,540
done.
You guys are all working on such

667
00:35:28,540 --> 00:35:31,420
different and diverse topics.
In general, how is this

668
00:35:31,420 --> 00:35:33,580
accumulation going to occur?
I mean, is there some sort of

669
00:35:33,580 --> 00:35:36,380
linkage between all of this or
are you guys going separate

670
00:35:36,380 --> 00:35:39,180
parts, doing separate work and
bringing it all together somehow

671
00:35:39,420 --> 00:35:41,300
afterwards?
Or is this sort of a cumulative

672
00:35:41,300 --> 00:35:45,500
journey as well in terms of,
well, it's everything, so it's

673
00:35:45,500 --> 00:35:48,380
both.
So all of them and everybody

674
00:35:48,380 --> 00:35:53,050
else in this field has their own
research programs that they're

675
00:35:53,090 --> 00:35:57,810
pushing forward.
But we all collaborate and there

676
00:35:57,810 --> 00:36:01,370
are many different
collaborations going on.

677
00:36:01,770 --> 00:36:04,130
I mean I'm I'm part of some of
them but obviously there are

678
00:36:04,130 --> 00:36:08,370
many others that know about and
yeah and we work together so, so

679
00:36:08,370 --> 00:36:11,130
so Mark and Carl and Chris and I
we we work together and we write

680
00:36:11,130 --> 00:36:15,780
papers together and so so yeah I
think this stuff is pulling

681
00:36:15,780 --> 00:36:18,220
together and there are many,
other many, many other people I

682
00:36:18,220 --> 00:36:21,180
I'm super excited how many young
people are coming into this

683
00:36:21,180 --> 00:36:22,980
field.
So this is this is the sort of

684
00:36:22,980 --> 00:36:27,620
thing where you can very clearly
see that a lot of the resistance

685
00:36:27,620 --> 00:36:30,820
that some of the big names in
this field in this you know some

686
00:36:30,820 --> 00:36:34,180
of the traditional people is
matched by the excitement of

687
00:36:34,180 --> 00:36:37,100
some extremely bright young
people coming into this field

688
00:36:37,100 --> 00:36:43,240
that are not constrained in the
same way and as as as as

689
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,440
previous you know kind of
previous folks.

690
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,680
And and I think and I think
that's very exciting.

691
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,120
I think this is going to this is
a very rapidly growing field and

692
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,240
people are getting into it and
and so many I I I received so

693
00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:59,360
many emails and from people that
have come across this work and

694
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,120
and they've sort of you know
changed their their their

695
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,680
educational trajectory to kind
of enable them to to to go in

696
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,920
this in this area it's it's very
exciting.

697
00:37:08,370 --> 00:37:11,050
I also, I'm looking forward to
so many new thinkers coming into

698
00:37:11,050 --> 00:37:13,930
the field because I was speaking
to someone about this not too

699
00:37:13,930 --> 00:37:15,370
long ago.
And when you think about the

700
00:37:15,410 --> 00:37:18,050
average student today, I mean,
these guys know how to program,

701
00:37:18,050 --> 00:37:21,050
they know how to write code.
They speak so many diverse

702
00:37:21,050 --> 00:37:24,090
languages already.
So they're coming into these

703
00:37:24,090 --> 00:37:27,490
topics with far more than the
average, let's say philosopher

704
00:37:27,490 --> 00:37:30,650
and neuroscientist today in
their peak.

705
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,520
Has so it must be super exciting
to also look down at some of

706
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,360
these guys presentations knowing
what they want to come up with.

707
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,520
Do you often get that on a
day-to-day basis when your

708
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,040
students come to you with these
phenomenal ideas?

709
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:44,120
Yeah, Yeah.
Yeah.

710
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,080
I mean, not only my own
students, but others.

711
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,520
I mean, I get a lot of emails
from people all over the

712
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,560
students all over the world,
ones who are attached to some

713
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,360
lab and many who are not
attached and so on.

714
00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:58,350
Some of them are you know so far
ahead of me in terms of their

715
00:37:58,390 --> 00:38:01,070
mathematical understanding and
and things like that and then

716
00:38:01,110 --> 00:38:03,430
and so on.
Which is, which is fantastic.

717
00:38:04,990 --> 00:38:05,630
Yeah.
Yeah.

718
00:38:05,630 --> 00:38:09,150
I think I think very exciting
and you know part of the

719
00:38:09,150 --> 00:38:12,030
challenges and I I spend a lot
of time actually with with with

720
00:38:12,030 --> 00:38:15,510
these people who who contact me
for this, who who need this kind

721
00:38:15,510 --> 00:38:18,110
of thing.
The challenge is to maintain

722
00:38:18,310 --> 00:38:23,470
that level of creativity while
through the traditional academic

723
00:38:23,470 --> 00:38:31,430
educational system because it it
it has a way of sanding down the

724
00:38:31,670 --> 00:38:34,950
you know, the interesting bits
kind of so to speak, and and

725
00:38:34,950 --> 00:38:36,790
grinding people down in an
important way.

726
00:38:36,790 --> 00:38:40,670
You know some some you know some
very impractical ways by making

727
00:38:40,670 --> 00:38:44,320
them spend time on specific
things and some in some ways

728
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,080
just, you know intellectually
because of feedback they get

729
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,320
from from traditional you know
traditional thinkers and so on.

730
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,480
It's it's it's it's a challenge.
You know it's a challenge and

731
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,960
some of these people are so
incredibly bright, it's actually

732
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,880
difficult for them to navigate
the system with with a savage

733
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,760
you know sort of Joe's and some
of whom and and and and you know

734
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,040
many people can be quite in this
in this field.

735
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,540
You know you need a thick skin,
right?

736
00:39:11,660 --> 00:39:16,060
This is a lot of people can be
pretty, pretty hostile and mean.

737
00:39:16,460 --> 00:39:21,340
And when you're young, you have
to learn pretty quickly to kind

738
00:39:21,340 --> 00:39:25,820
of let that roll off, you know?
I mean, I imagine the difficulty

739
00:39:25,820 --> 00:39:28,740
they're faced with because, I
mean, just even as a medical

740
00:39:28,740 --> 00:39:31,620
doctor, when I talk to people
within the medical field about

741
00:39:31,620 --> 00:39:34,140
differences in consciousness, I
mean they only think about it

742
00:39:34,140 --> 00:39:36,860
from a quantifiable perspective,
level of consciousness.

743
00:39:36,860 --> 00:39:39,550
That's it.
The attention they paid to the

744
00:39:39,550 --> 00:39:42,030
contents of consciousness or
experience in general, it's not

745
00:39:42,030 --> 00:39:44,990
as was, I mean life or death,
it's it's, it's the binary

746
00:39:44,990 --> 00:39:48,950
exclusion, living versus non
living, cell versus no cell.

747
00:39:49,310 --> 00:39:52,590
It's a very clear pattern.
The way they sort of train, get

748
00:39:52,590 --> 00:39:54,750
trained and how you're forced to
think at that point.

749
00:39:54,790 --> 00:39:57,230
It's very much ingrained into
you from the very beginning.

750
00:39:58,310 --> 00:40:01,630
You feel that this is a big
hindrance with us in general and

751
00:40:01,630 --> 00:40:04,390
then and then your work's
clearly trying to push towards a

752
00:40:04,430 --> 00:40:07,500
more diverse view of this.
Yeah, yeah.

753
00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:10,780
I mean, I don't, I don't have
much to say about specifically

754
00:40:10,780 --> 00:40:13,820
medical education because I'm
not an MD and I haven't been

755
00:40:13,820 --> 00:40:18,260
through Med school and so on,
but although I did my PhD at a

756
00:40:18,260 --> 00:40:21,500
medical school, so.
So I kind of know a little bit

757
00:40:21,500 --> 00:40:25,220
about it, but but The thing is
that there are there are a lot

758
00:40:25,220 --> 00:40:31,100
of incentives not to think in
new ways and a lot of very

759
00:40:31,100 --> 00:40:36,060
strong personalities who will
give young people advice on how

760
00:40:36,060 --> 00:40:37,500
to think and what to think
about.

761
00:40:38,020 --> 00:40:41,980
And and what I tell my students
leaving the lab is there,

762
00:40:41,980 --> 00:40:44,420
There's basically two kinds of
advice.

763
00:40:44,700 --> 00:40:49,820
There's specific advice on
specific experiments and and

764
00:40:49,820 --> 00:40:53,220
approaches and and for those
those kind of criticisms.

765
00:40:53,220 --> 00:40:55,370
That's gold, right?
So, so you need to pay a lot of

766
00:40:55,370 --> 00:40:58,810
attention to that because it
because it helps you hone your

767
00:40:58,810 --> 00:41:00,410
craft and get better at what
you're doing.

768
00:41:00,610 --> 00:41:04,290
And so, so any critiques of very
specific experiments or lines of

769
00:41:04,290 --> 00:41:05,570
reasoning or whatever, like
that's great.

770
00:41:06,370 --> 00:41:08,530
Then then there's the other
stuff which is kind of the meta

771
00:41:08,530 --> 00:41:09,730
advice.
And by the way, everything I'm

772
00:41:09,730 --> 00:41:10,930
saying now is an example of
that.

773
00:41:10,930 --> 00:41:14,010
So you know, people should feel
free to ignore that too.

774
00:41:14,330 --> 00:41:19,580
But, but the meta advice is do
this, don't do that.

775
00:41:19,660 --> 00:41:21,860
Think of it this way, don't
think of it that way, don't talk

776
00:41:21,860 --> 00:41:24,380
about this, don't talk about
that, that kind of stuff.

777
00:41:24,700 --> 00:41:30,140
I feel hardly anybody is.
Well, well, first of all, no one

778
00:41:30,140 --> 00:41:34,500
has a crystal ball and we are
all calibrated on the things we

779
00:41:34,500 --> 00:41:37,380
are interested in.
And we, you know, successful,

780
00:41:37,380 --> 00:41:41,020
successful people are very well
calibrated on whatever it is

781
00:41:41,020 --> 00:41:43,020
that they care about and and
they're successful in that

782
00:41:43,020 --> 00:41:44,860
field.
That doesn't mean anything about

783
00:41:44,860 --> 00:41:47,610
whether they're calibrated on
your ideas, right?

784
00:41:47,690 --> 00:41:50,930
And it's.
And in fact I've found that a

785
00:41:50,930 --> 00:41:55,490
lot of pioneers who have had
brilliant ideas and have fought

786
00:41:55,490 --> 00:42:00,210
through and sort of spent a lot
of energy in their life pushing

787
00:42:00,210 --> 00:42:04,050
some new idea.
Those people are often the most

788
00:42:04,050 --> 00:42:06,250
resistant to other new ideas.
It's amazing.

789
00:42:06,250 --> 00:42:07,730
I I didn't know that when I was
young.

790
00:42:07,730 --> 00:42:10,530
But I really, you know, I I kind
of thought that somebody

791
00:42:10,530 --> 00:42:12,610
somebody who was such an
avant-garde thinker in this way

792
00:42:12,610 --> 00:42:14,210
would surely they like my new
idea.

793
00:42:14,210 --> 00:42:17,690
No, they they often don't.
They like their new idea but but

794
00:42:17,690 --> 00:42:20,370
but they've spent all their
energy fighting for that idea

795
00:42:20,530 --> 00:42:24,130
and they want everything else to
be kind of you know a consensus

796
00:42:24,130 --> 00:42:28,710
and standard and that's just you
know what I what I tell my

797
00:42:28,710 --> 00:42:32,150
students is be very careful with
people who are very smart and

798
00:42:32,150 --> 00:42:33,990
very successful.
They know their stuff.

799
00:42:34,190 --> 00:42:36,430
They're not necessarily
calibrated on your stuff.

800
00:42:36,430 --> 00:42:39,550
They don't know you know what
should and shouldn't do so so

801
00:42:39,550 --> 00:42:44,110
it's so you know and and and and
a lot of people are are well

802
00:42:44,110 --> 00:42:48,430
meaning and and and generous
with with with knowledge and so

803
00:42:48,430 --> 00:42:52,290
on and that's great and and some
people aren't and so you just

804
00:42:52,290 --> 00:42:54,770
need to you need to have a thick
skin and you need to keep you

805
00:42:54,770 --> 00:42:58,850
know sort of your goal in mind
and just you know get better at.

806
00:42:59,970 --> 00:43:02,810
What I've written so many notes
and I we steered away from the

807
00:43:02,810 --> 00:43:05,290
conversation at this point.
But it's too fascinating to not

808
00:43:05,530 --> 00:43:08,410
just delve a little bit deeper
when you think about, OK, when

809
00:43:08,410 --> 00:43:11,090
you were doing this, you had a
lot of mentors, you had lots of

810
00:43:11,090 --> 00:43:12,890
people you were looking up to
while in this field.

811
00:43:13,330 --> 00:43:16,210
Were there anyone people in,
anyone in specific, likes

812
00:43:16,250 --> 00:43:18,690
particular that you can think of
who really got you here?

813
00:43:19,660 --> 00:43:22,860
From a mental perspective,
really influenced you and

814
00:43:22,860 --> 00:43:27,060
motivated you to do this work.
Yeah, well, I suppose let's

815
00:43:27,060 --> 00:43:29,580
stick with the living people,
because I have.

816
00:43:29,860 --> 00:43:32,740
There's a whole I actually, when
you come into my lab up on the

817
00:43:32,740 --> 00:43:34,580
wall, I've got pictures of, I
don't know, probably about a

818
00:43:34,580 --> 00:43:39,220
dozen people who I consider my
heroes and I'm curious.

819
00:43:40,540 --> 00:43:44,720
Well, we can I'll actually, I'll
send you a link later.

820
00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:48,120
There's a I tweeted at some
point actually the pictures and

821
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,800
some text about each one.
So I'll put up a link later.

822
00:43:52,760 --> 00:44:02,150
But if we talk about SO my first
undergraduate mentor who I was a

823
00:44:02,150 --> 00:44:04,550
computer science student and
she, she took me into her lab

824
00:44:04,550 --> 00:44:08,030
and allowed me to do by the the
first real biology experiments

825
00:44:08,030 --> 00:44:09,750
when I had done stuff at home.
But this was like you know,

826
00:44:09,790 --> 00:44:13,030
real, real biology.
Her name was Susan Ernst and she

827
00:44:13,030 --> 00:44:14,950
was a biology.
She was here at Tufts

828
00:44:16,070 --> 00:44:20,670
developmental biologist and my
PhD mentor Cliff Taban and my

829
00:44:20,670 --> 00:44:26,070
postdoc mentor Mark Merkola.
You know they were they were

830
00:44:26,470 --> 00:44:31,000
amazing mentors all of them.
The thing is that, but by by

831
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,400
then I had sort of already
gotten the idea that it's it's

832
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:36,880
often better not to say too
much.

833
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:42,680
And so I went through those
stages not really talking about

834
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,520
any of the things that I'm, you
know, these these kinds of

835
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:46,880
things, right.
I kind of kept my mouth shut.

836
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:53,440
So the people, the the other
people that that really have had

837
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,400
an influence on me.
One was Don Ingber who's he's

838
00:44:58,390 --> 00:45:01,230
you know kind of a huge figure
in in bio mechanics and and then

839
00:45:01,230 --> 00:45:03,750
the the director of the Vice
Institute at Harvard.

840
00:45:03,990 --> 00:45:08,750
He was one of the few people,
very few people early on when I

841
00:45:08,750 --> 00:45:12,470
was a grad student there at at
Harvard Medical School who was

842
00:45:12,470 --> 00:45:16,670
supportive of me and having new
ideas, he was he was pretty much

843
00:45:16,670 --> 00:45:18,790
the only person I'd ever talked
to about some of this, you know,

844
00:45:18,790 --> 00:45:22,150
crazy stuff.
And he was he was one of the few

845
00:45:22,150 --> 00:45:25,170
people that was actually
positive about yeah you you

846
00:45:25,170 --> 00:45:26,730
should not give this up.
You should keep.

847
00:45:26,730 --> 00:45:28,130
You know you should keep
thinking about it.

848
00:45:28,130 --> 00:45:30,250
It's fine that everybody else
thinks it's nuts like that's

849
00:45:30,250 --> 00:45:33,250
okay.
You know own your craft and and

850
00:45:33,250 --> 00:45:36,410
and and so on.
You know another person is lens

851
00:45:36,410 --> 00:45:39,330
on so lens on works on cancer
and zebrafish also at Harvard

852
00:45:39,330 --> 00:45:43,050
Med School.
Just just the most amazingly

853
00:45:43,050 --> 00:45:47,130
supportive you know top of the
line researcher but just really

854
00:45:47,130 --> 00:45:50,050
really supportive really kind.
Yeah, that's that's very

855
00:45:50,050 --> 00:45:52,680
important, you know, having
having people like that, it's

856
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,640
really important.
Yeah, I'm just making notes of

857
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,400
their names because I want to
check their workout as well.

858
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,920
You mentioned a couple things.
You mentioned tame technological

859
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:04,920
approach to mind every which at
some point I want to touch on.

860
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,720
But in keeping with Mark, I
remember once you and him having

861
00:46:07,720 --> 00:46:09,560
a conversation about homeostasis
in general.

862
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:14,280
And I mean this seems to be a
very important asset or facet,

863
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,360
sorry of of what we're trying to
achieve these goal orientated

864
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,440
behaviors.
It's clearly a way to get us

865
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,680
homeostatic in a sense.
At some point you and Mark, you

866
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,800
don't necessarily disagree, but
I remember him mentioning the

867
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,280
fact that, OK, he does consider
this to be a very ancient

868
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,320
process.
It's been happening back in time

869
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,680
for millennia, and it still
happens from birth to to

870
00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:38,200
adulthood, I would say.
But he's concerned that at some

871
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,520
point your approach becomes a
little bit more an psychist with

872
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,040
this technological approach of
mind everywhere.

873
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,600
How do you, how do you see it?
Do you see it becoming that way

874
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,960
at any point, or how do you
really began to frame the frame

875
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:56,130
this philosophically?
I don't disagree that it's

876
00:46:56,130 --> 00:47:01,290
panpsychist, except that there's
two different ways to do

877
00:47:01,290 --> 00:47:04,650
panpsychism.
The traditional way is to say,

878
00:47:05,410 --> 00:47:08,530
here's all of traditional
physics and all of standard

879
00:47:08,530 --> 00:47:12,200
normal physics, and also I'm
gonna paint some stuff onto

880
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,880
these electrons and things that
are, you know, sort of little

881
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,160
tiny hopes and dreams that the
electrons have, right.

882
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,800
So that's one way of doing it,
that's, I don't like that way.

883
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,600
And that's, that's the thing
that most people I think have in

884
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,590
mind when they object to
panpsychism because having a

885
00:47:27,590 --> 00:47:30,470
perfectly good physics that
works and then saying, OK, now

886
00:47:30,470 --> 00:47:32,390
I'm going to add a bunch of
stuff to it that doesn't do

887
00:47:32,390 --> 00:47:33,790
anything.
But you know, it's sort of

888
00:47:33,790 --> 00:47:36,270
there.
Yes, that's that I think is

889
00:47:36,270 --> 00:47:38,150
problematic.
But there's another way.

890
00:47:38,430 --> 00:47:43,150
And I think, I mean, I don't
know, but I think that at this

891
00:47:43,150 --> 00:47:46,350
point, Mark, probably I would
think that that doesn't disagree

892
00:47:46,350 --> 00:47:48,670
with this, but but maybe, you
know, we can, we can ask him.

893
00:47:48,670 --> 00:47:50,190
I'll be seeing him next week.
So we can ask him.

894
00:47:50,430 --> 00:47:52,470
I'm going to check.
So hopefully you got it's all

895
00:47:52,590 --> 00:47:55,790
you check before him and then
I'll ask him yeah, yeah yeah we

896
00:47:55,790 --> 00:47:59,230
can we can talk about this the
the the other the other type of

897
00:47:59,230 --> 00:48:03,750
pansychism is what Chris and and
and and Carl Friston are doing,

898
00:48:03,870 --> 00:48:09,350
which is to reformulate basic
physics as fundamentally first

899
00:48:10,670 --> 00:48:13,830
a, a a protocognitive process.
See that's a completely

900
00:48:13,830 --> 00:48:15,990
different different kettle of
fish because what you're saying

901
00:48:15,990 --> 00:48:19,470
there is it's not that the
traditional physics is a OK and

902
00:48:19,470 --> 00:48:21,670
I want to I want to add some
stuff to it that we don't really

903
00:48:21,670 --> 00:48:22,910
need.
What you're saying is no,

904
00:48:22,910 --> 00:48:32,050
actually traditional physics is
a an edge case of systems that

905
00:48:32,050 --> 00:48:35,810
have a certain level of
cognition.

906
00:48:35,810 --> 00:48:39,850
But actually those systems and
also all the very complex stuff

907
00:48:40,010 --> 00:48:44,050
eventually leading up to humans
and beyond, are actually

908
00:48:44,050 --> 00:48:46,890
features of a much of A deeper
underlying reality.

909
00:48:47,250 --> 00:48:51,090
And that one I like much better.
I think that's the kind of

910
00:48:51,090 --> 00:48:53,570
panpsychism that I that I would
support.

911
00:48:54,170 --> 00:49:01,570
And the other key thing is in my
mind, the the useful thing about

912
00:49:01,570 --> 00:49:04,730
panpsychism is that it needs to
be.

913
00:49:05,610 --> 00:49:07,090
It needs to have an empirical
component.

914
00:49:07,370 --> 00:49:10,170
So when somebody says, you know,
well, how about this rock?

915
00:49:10,170 --> 00:49:12,530
Does this rock have have a mind?
Yes.

916
00:49:12,650 --> 00:49:14,250
Well, how about this one?
Oh, definitely.

917
00:49:14,290 --> 00:49:15,650
Well, what's the difference?
I don't know.

918
00:49:15,950 --> 00:49:20,950
So right so so that that doesn't
work but but but but having a an

919
00:49:20,950 --> 00:49:24,830
empirical set of tools that tell
you under what conditions do you

920
00:49:24,830 --> 00:49:31,820
ascribe different kinds of minds
to specific systems right.

921
00:49:31,820 --> 00:49:34,540
And what what what how why?
You know what what's a what's a

922
00:49:34,540 --> 00:49:37,460
principled way to ascribe mind
to and what kind of mind and so

923
00:49:37,460 --> 00:49:39,540
on That's that's really key.
So.

924
00:49:39,580 --> 00:49:42,340
So you need a pan psychism that
isn't a philosophical position

925
00:49:42,460 --> 00:49:45,380
and that's why that's why a tame
has the word engineering in it.

926
00:49:45,580 --> 00:49:48,620
Because I really think and and
and by the way I don't think

927
00:49:48,620 --> 00:49:51,540
engineering is the end all and
be all of of human existence for

928
00:49:51,540 --> 00:49:51,980
sure.
But.

929
00:49:51,980 --> 00:49:56,180
But I think we can get very far
with an engineering perspective

930
00:49:56,180 --> 00:50:00,210
which says you need to have a
practical you know, whatever

931
00:50:00,210 --> 00:50:03,410
concepts you're pushing have to
have a practical implication and

932
00:50:03,410 --> 00:50:06,330
they need to help you do better
in the real world.

933
00:50:06,570 --> 00:50:07,210
Right.
That's it.

934
00:50:07,370 --> 00:50:09,370
That's the beauty of
engineering, is that we get to

935
00:50:09,370 --> 00:50:12,050
find out who's right and who's
wrong by by doing experiments

936
00:50:12,050 --> 00:50:16,410
and by seeing what these various
views allow you to do what, what

937
00:50:16,410 --> 00:50:18,210
do they facilitate for research
and so on.

938
00:50:19,410 --> 00:50:22,410
When it comes to panzacism, I
mean Phillip coughs often spoken

939
00:50:22,410 --> 00:50:23,970
about.
In this realm of panzacism, is

940
00:50:23,970 --> 00:50:26,260
there any point?
With his philosophy, where you

941
00:50:26,540 --> 00:50:28,900
completely disagree?
Or do you feel like his

942
00:50:28,900 --> 00:50:31,780
philosophy will sort of fit into
your scientific worldview

943
00:50:31,780 --> 00:50:35,540
somewhere?
I must say I don't know

944
00:50:35,540 --> 00:50:37,860
everything that he says, so I
think I need to.

945
00:50:38,180 --> 00:50:41,940
In fact, I have it on my
calendar to try and get a

946
00:50:41,940 --> 00:50:45,300
conversation with him and really
sort of drill down to see where

947
00:50:45,500 --> 00:50:47,300
where we agree and disagree.
So I don't know.

948
00:50:47,860 --> 00:50:50,740
The reason why I'm asking is cuz
I asked called us and I found it

949
00:50:50,740 --> 00:50:54,710
very fascinating because.
There is that element behind the

950
00:50:54,870 --> 00:50:57,630
philosophical process, behind
the science, science behind

951
00:50:57,630 --> 00:51:00,150
this.
But when I when I put forward

952
00:51:00,150 --> 00:51:02,750
this idea, when you think about
these prior information that you

953
00:51:02,750 --> 00:51:05,230
take in and you make out these
posterior conclusions.

954
00:51:05,470 --> 00:51:08,070
If you take Illusionism as a
theory of consciousness, which

955
00:51:08,070 --> 00:51:10,790
I'm starting to see and
empathize with what Philip was

956
00:51:10,790 --> 00:51:14,750
once saying, he once mentioned
that if not for panpsychism, he

957
00:51:14,750 --> 00:51:17,710
feels that Illusionism as a
theory of consciousness, or this

958
00:51:17,710 --> 00:51:20,710
introspective illusion on how we
perceive this, is the most

959
00:51:20,710 --> 00:51:23,680
coherent argument.
When he does not consider his

960
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,400
own pan psychism, I've been
thinking, how can you go jump

961
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,760
from consciousness everywhere to
nothing at all?

962
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,840
But then when I asked call about
this, I said if the prior

963
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:36,400
information consistently tells
us we're conscious, we're not

964
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,240
conscious.
Sorry, sorry.

965
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:41,320
If if the prior information
tells us that we are conscious,

966
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,160
but yet we don't technically
have this definition for what

967
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,920
consciousness is, and if we're
slowly blurring this line.

968
00:51:48,430 --> 00:51:52,190
At some point, wouldn't it be OK
to then say that we there is an

969
00:51:52,190 --> 00:51:55,270
illusion happening here?
There is no definite essence of

970
00:51:55,270 --> 00:51:59,270
consciousness per se, but there
is this definitive continuum of

971
00:51:59,270 --> 00:52:01,670
experience that we don't really
have an answer to.

972
00:52:01,910 --> 00:52:04,550
In that case, would it then be
considered a version of

973
00:52:04,550 --> 00:52:06,950
illusionism?
Basically said yes, but I don't

974
00:52:06,950 --> 00:52:08,830
think I'm really explaining it
as well as I should.

975
00:52:10,670 --> 00:52:16,120
Well the thing the thing about
illusions is let's let's try to

976
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,440
define it and and in order to
define it we need to think about

977
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,720
what the alternative would be.
And it's it's similar to

978
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:26,280
sometimes people ask me is it
possible that we're living in a

979
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,320
simulation that all this is you
know that reality isn't what we.

980
00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:32,400
And and if you think about it
it's not just possible.

981
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:36,040
It's guaranteed there's no other
way it could possibly be because

982
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:38,880
because if you think about you
know what what is the opposite

983
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,370
of that.
The opposite of that is that you

984
00:52:42,370 --> 00:52:46,650
somehow have a a a physically
embodied cognitive structure

985
00:52:46,890 --> 00:52:51,610
that is able to is not limited
in its sensory perceptions.

986
00:52:51,610 --> 00:52:53,490
It's not limited in the amount
of memory and the amount of

987
00:52:53,490 --> 00:52:55,290
computations.
I mean all of us are limited

988
00:52:55,290 --> 00:52:57,130
beings.
All of us evolved under

989
00:52:57,130 --> 00:52:59,410
constraints of time and energy
and everything else.

990
00:52:59,650 --> 00:53:04,730
We see a tiny little narrow slid
in the electromagnetic spectrum.

991
00:53:04,730 --> 00:53:07,810
We have a few other things like
chemical senses of of things

992
00:53:07,810 --> 00:53:09,890
that are right there on your,
you know on your tongue and on

993
00:53:09,890 --> 00:53:13,250
your fingers and so on.
And we have a little bit of

994
00:53:13,250 --> 00:53:16,410
memory and you know, we have
this wet squishy substrate

995
00:53:16,410 --> 00:53:18,690
that's very error prone and
needs to be constantly

996
00:53:18,690 --> 00:53:20,250
maintained.
And all our memories have to be

997
00:53:20,690 --> 00:53:25,930
the actively, you know, sort of
rewritten and all that under

998
00:53:25,930 --> 00:53:27,650
those.
And and we were evolved under

999
00:53:27,650 --> 00:53:31,730
specific pressures under those
conditions who could possibly

1000
00:53:31,730 --> 00:53:34,890
think that that we are not
living in some sort of very

1001
00:53:34,890 --> 00:53:40,370
specific representation of
reality that is limited in many

1002
00:53:40,370 --> 00:53:43,130
ways.
Now that's not to say it isn't

1003
00:53:43,130 --> 00:53:46,970
adaptive and that's not to say
that it's you know, sort of

1004
00:53:47,050 --> 00:53:49,650
well, I mean okay.
So Don Hoffman would say that in

1005
00:53:49,650 --> 00:53:51,170
many ways it is completely
wrong.

1006
00:53:51,650 --> 00:53:54,810
I think there's probably some
truth to that.

1007
00:53:54,810 --> 00:54:00,570
But in other ways, I think the
big kind of lesson from all this

1008
00:54:00,570 --> 00:54:03,510
is that we are all a brain in
the VAT.

1009
00:54:03,630 --> 00:54:04,470
Of course we are.
We are.

1010
00:54:04,470 --> 00:54:09,310
We are a brain sitting inside,
you know this, this we think,

1011
00:54:09,310 --> 00:54:11,190
this thing that gives us various
stimuli.

1012
00:54:11,190 --> 00:54:15,390
We try to make the best sense of
it that we can and creatures

1013
00:54:15,390 --> 00:54:17,790
will adapt to.
This is why you can do sensory

1014
00:54:17,790 --> 00:54:20,830
substitution and sensory
augmentation, and why you can

1015
00:54:20,830 --> 00:54:23,070
have neurons in the dish that
play pong.

1016
00:54:24,230 --> 00:54:28,240
These systems will try to make
sense of whatever world they're

1017
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:31,080
given in whatever configuration
they have, and we do the same.

1018
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,960
So yeah, absolutely it's an
illusion, but it's not an

1019
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:40,640
illusion in the sense that there
is some other way to sort of

1020
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:44,760
have perfect, direct, not for us
anyway, perfect direct

1021
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:47,560
perception of some underlying
reality.

1022
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,490
It just to me, when we say it's
an illusion or a simulation, it

1023
00:54:51,490 --> 00:54:54,730
just acknowledges the fact that
we are finite, limited beings

1024
00:54:54,930 --> 00:54:58,290
whose job it is to make the best
sense we can using the hardware

1025
00:54:58,290 --> 00:55:02,210
that we have of what's been
going on up until now and what

1026
00:55:02,210 --> 00:55:03,650
we predict is going to be going
on.

1027
00:55:03,650 --> 00:55:07,410
I don't know of another story
that could possibly make sense.

1028
00:55:07,410 --> 00:55:09,450
So, so I so I think it's I think
it's both.

1029
00:55:09,450 --> 00:55:11,650
I think, I think, yeah, I think,
I think there there's an

1030
00:55:11,650 --> 00:55:12,970
illusion going on.
Of course there is.

1031
00:55:13,410 --> 00:55:17,370
And at the same time, I think we
are conscious of that.

1032
00:55:19,150 --> 00:55:20,790
Yeah.
And and I think you know, I

1033
00:55:20,790 --> 00:55:23,710
think we can we can do well by
by learning how that that

1034
00:55:23,710 --> 00:55:28,590
mapping works.
That's your the science behind

1035
00:55:28,590 --> 00:55:31,590
everything you you guys are
doing at 11 lab and everywhere

1036
00:55:31,590 --> 00:55:33,830
else within this team.
Now I would say this diverse

1037
00:55:33,830 --> 00:55:39,790
intelligence team aligns with
Julia Tononi and and Eric Halls

1038
00:55:39,790 --> 00:55:42,110
that they work on integrated
information theory.

1039
00:55:42,110 --> 00:55:44,430
At what point do you think those
collide?

1040
00:55:45,740 --> 00:55:47,780
Yeah, I mean we we use quite a
bit of that.

1041
00:55:47,780 --> 00:55:53,340
So, so Eric worked in our Allen
Center for some years and we we

1042
00:55:53,340 --> 00:55:57,740
work together on a bunch of
stuff and using I, I think these

1043
00:55:57,740 --> 00:56:01,060
these metrics of of integrated
information, whether Julio's or

1044
00:56:01,060 --> 00:56:04,580
somebody else's are yeah,
they're they're a very useful

1045
00:56:04,580 --> 00:56:10,100
mathematical tool to begin to
understand one aspect of that

1046
00:56:10,100 --> 00:56:11,940
integration.
I think it's it's really

1047
00:56:11,940 --> 00:56:16,470
foundational.
I think, I think their work just

1048
00:56:16,470 --> 00:56:20,830
I I I can't say enough about how
you know and I'm not saying it's

1049
00:56:20,830 --> 00:56:22,350
correct in all the details
necessarily.

1050
00:56:22,350 --> 00:56:25,110
But but I'm just saying this
idea that that they were able to

1051
00:56:25,110 --> 00:56:29,160
move what used to be a
philosophical question that is

1052
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,600
you know our our our higher
levels in systems real or or can

1053
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:34,160
everything be reduced to the
lower level.

1054
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:37,000
The fact that that's been argued
about for how many hundreds of

1055
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,480
years, the fact that they were
able to move that from a

1056
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:42,680
philosophical question to a
practical question, that there's

1057
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:46,400
now a downloadable toolkit that
you can install and run and get

1058
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:50,000
an answer for your system as to
which level does the most causal

1059
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,620
work.
It's it's one of the most

1060
00:56:52,620 --> 00:56:54,580
profound things.
You know how often do you see a

1061
00:56:54,580 --> 00:56:58,020
philosophical question like that
reduced in the in the right way

1062
00:56:58,220 --> 00:57:01,500
to to software that you can
actually get an answer out of

1063
00:57:01,500 --> 00:57:01,700
it.
Right.

1064
00:57:02,060 --> 00:57:04,700
I think that's I think it's just
incredibly profound and when

1065
00:57:04,700 --> 00:57:08,900
we're using some of those tools
so we're analyzing you know

1066
00:57:08,900 --> 00:57:11,820
calcium signaling in our
Zenobots and and bioelectrical

1067
00:57:11,820 --> 00:57:15,660
signaling in in cells trying to
decide how many of them belong

1068
00:57:15,660 --> 00:57:17,420
to a single embryo and all that
kind of stuff.

1069
00:57:17,700 --> 00:57:19,900
So yeah, it's it's already it's
already collided.

1070
00:57:20,890 --> 00:57:21,890
Yeah, I think it's just
beautiful.

1071
00:57:21,890 --> 00:57:24,170
The way you guys are taking
philosophy so seriously and

1072
00:57:24,170 --> 00:57:27,890
applying it into the science,
it's it opens up the door to so

1073
00:57:27,890 --> 00:57:30,610
much more and and so much more
creative thinking in general

1074
00:57:30,610 --> 00:57:34,130
doesn't just box you into this
general scientific mindset.

1075
00:57:34,130 --> 00:57:36,610
I mean, even though I am someone
very much in the field of

1076
00:57:36,610 --> 00:57:39,050
science, I mean it's always
great to to explore these ideas

1077
00:57:39,050 --> 00:57:41,930
differently.
And you mentioned that you're

1078
00:57:41,930 --> 00:57:45,530
trying to go beyond this and you
you sort of spoke about it as

1079
00:57:45,530 --> 00:57:48,250
it's a slightly primitive idea
at this point, but your tame

1080
00:57:48,250 --> 00:57:50,480
idea.
You said you wanna move beyond

1081
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:52,680
this at this point, and when you
first came up with it, it was

1082
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:55,120
sort of slightly more basic.
What did you mean by that?

1083
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:02,800
Well, let's see.
I mean well there's okay on the

1084
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:06,720
one sense, in the one sense it
needs much more development.

1085
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:09,760
So so that was just the 1st
paper I have you know team 2.0

1086
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:13,280
is is on my calendar for you
know to do sometime this fall

1087
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:15,240
and there's a lot there's a lot
more coming.

1088
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:18,120
So so fleshing out the details
making the cognitive light going

1089
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,880
more quantitative there's
there's a lot of there's a lot

1090
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:22,240
of development that needs to
happen.

1091
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:25,000
This is just the first step.
I in no way am I claiming that

1092
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:26,680
any of this is is a definitive
treatment.

1093
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:27,960
These are these are the first
steps.

1094
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:32,160
But there's also another sense
which is which is interesting

1095
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:36,000
which is that and it's funny a
lot of people actually catch on

1096
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:38,960
to this without my having talked
about it, you know, publicly

1097
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:42,640
which is I get a lot of emails
from therapists and

1098
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,800
psychoanalysts and people who do
counseling and things like that.

1099
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,840
And it's and I'm, you know, I'm
always interested like how did

1100
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:51,120
you like what what?
You know I don't work in those

1101
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:52,280
fields.
I don't have anything to say

1102
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:53,800
about that specifically.
How did you find me?

1103
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:56,440
And they all read this tame
stuff and the boundary of the

1104
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:58,400
self and it can sort of feel
they can they feel the

1105
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,720
connections.
And and what I can say about it

1106
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:06,290
is, is this, the, the tame
framework is fleshed out in

1107
00:59:06,290 --> 00:59:09,650
terms of, in terms of an engine,
it's focused as from an

1108
00:59:09,650 --> 00:59:11,650
engineering perspective.
And the thing about the

1109
00:59:11,650 --> 00:59:13,330
engineering perspective is
control.

1110
00:59:13,750 --> 00:59:16,390
So what I'm going to do is I'm
going to predict and control the

1111
00:59:16,390 --> 00:59:18,310
system.
And now I mean that's very

1112
00:59:18,310 --> 00:59:19,950
useful because now I can ask
questions.

1113
00:59:20,190 --> 00:59:23,310
Do I treat it like a bowling
ball and then I can use certain

1114
00:59:23,310 --> 00:59:26,590
set of tools or is it more like
a mouse and then I use a

1115
00:59:26,590 --> 00:59:29,230
different set of tools or is it
something in between like the

1116
00:59:29,230 --> 00:59:31,950
cells or an autonomous vehicle,
I use different set of tools and

1117
00:59:31,950 --> 00:59:35,190
so on.
But all of that is framed in

1118
00:59:35,190 --> 00:59:39,690
terms of control.
Now an uncharitable view of this

1119
00:59:39,690 --> 00:59:42,930
would be and and and some people
who are you know in the

1120
00:59:42,930 --> 00:59:45,690
humanities could could see this.
They would look at this and say,

1121
00:59:46,330 --> 00:59:49,370
well, control is great for the
kind of left side of that

1122
00:59:49,370 --> 00:59:52,130
spectrum.
But when you get towards the you

1123
00:59:52,130 --> 00:59:55,930
know other humans and and and
you know the other animals and

1124
00:59:55,930 --> 00:59:58,530
so on.
Control isn't the right way to

1125
00:59:58,530 --> 01:00:01,210
think about it because because
you know, you can't just be

1126
01:00:01,210 --> 01:00:03,130
thinking about how I'm going to
how am I going to control all

1127
01:00:03,210 --> 01:00:05,050
the all the people you know
around me, right that, like

1128
01:00:05,050 --> 01:00:05,810
that's.
Yeah.

1129
01:00:05,970 --> 01:00:10,490
And and so and so The thing is
that I think the next version of

1130
01:00:10,490 --> 01:00:13,450
this which which I'm working on,
but the early one had to come

1131
01:00:13,450 --> 01:00:17,450
out first to kind of nail this
part down is it's not just about

1132
01:00:17,450 --> 01:00:20,250
control.
Control is again this the slider

1133
01:00:20,250 --> 01:00:26,970
that there's a spectrum of
agency and the more you go to

1134
01:00:26,970 --> 01:00:32,130
the right the more control is in
terms of in in terms of this one

1135
01:00:32,130 --> 01:00:35,370
directional you know
relationship with the system

1136
01:00:35,570 --> 01:00:38,570
becomes a bidirectional
relationship where I get

1137
01:00:38,570 --> 01:00:41,490
something back from the from the
agency of the system I'm working

1138
01:00:41,490 --> 01:00:43,490
with.
Not so much you know you're not

1139
01:00:43,490 --> 01:00:45,690
going to hear much for about the
hopes and dreams of the bowling

1140
01:00:45,690 --> 01:00:48,890
ball but by the time you get to
the right side you're really

1141
01:00:48,890 --> 01:00:51,530
having relationships that are
very bidirectional.

1142
01:00:51,530 --> 01:00:54,410
It's not about control.
It's about it's but but it.

1143
01:00:54,410 --> 01:00:58,210
But again, everything starts out
with this with this more general

1144
01:00:58,210 --> 01:01:01,130
question of what's the right way
to relate to that system.

1145
01:01:01,770 --> 01:01:04,810
And and another way to think
about it, a very simplistic sort

1146
01:01:04,810 --> 01:01:08,930
of way to think about it, is,
you know, you're going to Mars,

1147
01:01:08,930 --> 01:01:11,250
you're going to spend some
amount of time there, maybe the

1148
01:01:11,250 --> 01:01:13,930
rest of your life.
What kind of system do you want

1149
01:01:13,930 --> 01:01:16,770
with you?
Do you want a Roomba?

1150
01:01:17,050 --> 01:01:19,170
Do you want a dog?
Do you want a human?

1151
01:01:19,170 --> 01:01:22,090
Do you want some sort of
superhuman whose goals.

1152
01:01:22,290 --> 01:01:26,100
Just imagine you know if there
was some other creature who had

1153
01:01:26,100 --> 01:01:28,780
these galactic level goals that
you couldn't even begin to

1154
01:01:28,780 --> 01:01:30,060
understand like would that be
fun?

1155
01:01:30,820 --> 01:01:34,100
You know and so and so you can
think about having a kind of

1156
01:01:34,100 --> 01:01:37,460
impedance match in relationships
right where your if your

1157
01:01:37,460 --> 01:01:39,580
cognitive light cones are
completely out of whack with

1158
01:01:39,580 --> 01:01:41,780
each other.
It it it doesn't tend to work

1159
01:01:41,780 --> 01:01:44,660
too well and you can think about
you can think about marriage and

1160
01:01:44,660 --> 01:01:47,780
you know sort of what what is
the kind of system that and and

1161
01:01:47,780 --> 01:01:52,780
then you can think about
interesting things like for for

1162
01:01:52,780 --> 01:01:57,760
example people are now working
on a proof of humanity

1163
01:01:57,760 --> 01:01:59,800
certificates.
This is because of a I right.

1164
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:02,240
And so you want to when you're
dealing with you know something

1165
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:04,840
or or someone or a work product
or whatever you you know some

1166
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:07,520
people want to know that it was
made by by a human or that it is

1167
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:09,640
a human or whatever.
And so you can ask yourself I

1168
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:10,920
think that's a very interesting
question.

1169
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:14,240
You can ask yourself what is it
that you want this proof of

1170
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:17,000
humanity certificate to actually
guarantee right.

1171
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:20,120
What what what do you want.
And so you can say and so some

1172
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:24,150
people are, some people will say
I'm oh it's terrible that humans

1173
01:02:24,150 --> 01:02:28,230
are changing themselves and you
know in the future will have, I

1174
01:02:28,230 --> 01:02:30,670
don't know chips implanted and
when you know wheels and

1175
01:02:30,670 --> 01:02:32,110
tentacles I don't know what the
hell will happen.

1176
01:02:32,390 --> 01:02:34,590
You know what And and and so
some people say that's terrible.

1177
01:02:34,590 --> 01:02:36,430
So.
So one question is humanity.

1178
01:02:36,430 --> 01:02:39,030
Does that mean I have a standard
human anatomy?

1179
01:02:39,430 --> 01:02:41,110
I I, I don't really care about
that.

1180
01:02:41,110 --> 01:02:42,230
Right.
That that doesn't.

1181
01:02:42,230 --> 01:02:44,550
You know, maybe other people do.
I don't care about that at all.

1182
01:02:45,630 --> 01:02:48,510
Or some people say, well what's
important about being human is

1183
01:02:48,510 --> 01:02:51,400
the is the genome.
You know the human genome I I I

1184
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,480
don't care about the genome at
all and so and so now and so now

1185
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:57,320
do you care about when you know
if you're going to marry someone

1186
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:00,040
or you're going to spend some
time on Mars with someone What

1187
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,680
is it that you really want Do
you know what what is the what

1188
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:05,480
is the.
And I think what you really want

1189
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:12,560
is you want to make sure that
your cognitive like one and

1190
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:16,510
specifically the the compassion
part of the cone matches.

1191
01:03:16,670 --> 01:03:19,870
You want to know that this being
has the capacity to care about

1192
01:03:19,870 --> 01:03:22,310
the same amount of stuff that
you care about.

1193
01:03:22,630 --> 01:03:26,230
So if it's, you know, if it's a,
if it's a Roomba or it's a or

1194
01:03:26,230 --> 01:03:29,110
it's a, you know, it's a cat or
a snake or something like that's

1195
01:03:29,110 --> 01:03:32,070
better than nothing.
But it's really not sufficient

1196
01:03:32,510 --> 01:03:35,230
and you want at least that.
So so when I see proof of

1197
01:03:35,230 --> 01:03:38,550
humanity, here's what I want.
I want at least a standard

1198
01:03:38,550 --> 01:03:41,860
modern humans level of possible
compassion.

1199
01:03:41,860 --> 01:03:45,180
I want somebody that is capable
of caring about this roughly the

1200
01:03:45,180 --> 01:03:47,220
same amount or more, more, More
is always good.

1201
01:03:48,020 --> 01:03:51,860
You know about the same amount
of stuff and so and so that's

1202
01:03:51,860 --> 01:03:53,460
what to me that's what this is
about.

1203
01:03:53,460 --> 01:03:55,500
It isn't just about the
engineering control.

1204
01:03:55,780 --> 01:03:59,660
It's about having the right
impedance match for a

1205
01:03:59,660 --> 01:04:05,500
relationship you know and you
want something that has the same

1206
01:04:05,500 --> 01:04:07,100
extended.
This is what I think this is

1207
01:04:07,100 --> 01:04:10,950
just, you know, it's just my my,
my own thinking is that you want

1208
01:04:10,950 --> 01:04:13,710
something that has the same
existential problems that you

1209
01:04:13,710 --> 01:04:17,350
do.
You if a system like, you know,

1210
01:04:17,350 --> 01:04:22,030
if you had some sort of robotic
system that didn't have to put

1211
01:04:22,030 --> 01:04:24,310
itself together during
embryogenesis, never had to

1212
01:04:24,310 --> 01:04:27,590
decide where do I end in the
outside world begins.

1213
01:04:27,990 --> 01:04:31,670
It doesn't have any issues of of
needing to keep itself up with

1214
01:04:31,670 --> 01:04:34,430
metabolism or it'll die.
You know things like that the

1215
01:04:34,470 --> 01:04:37,270
systems that didn't go through
that that don't go through the

1216
01:04:37,270 --> 01:04:42,740
same existential questions and
concerns that that we go through

1217
01:04:43,260 --> 01:04:46,260
are not ideal for that kind of
relation.

1218
01:04:46,260 --> 01:04:48,260
This is this I think is what
people are really.

1219
01:04:48,260 --> 01:04:49,820
I don't I don't think they
really mean the genome.

1220
01:04:49,820 --> 01:04:51,260
I don't think they mean the
anatomy.

1221
01:04:51,500 --> 01:04:58,500
You know I said to other people
who who who do talk about you

1222
01:04:58,500 --> 01:05:00,060
know anatomy and and and things
like that.

1223
01:05:00,340 --> 01:05:03,460
I'll say, look, your spouse
comes home as one day and they

1224
01:05:03,460 --> 01:05:06,930
say, you know what I've had,
I've had some toes swapped out.

1225
01:05:07,010 --> 01:05:09,290
You know, I went to the doctor.
They had to have some.

1226
01:05:09,370 --> 01:05:11,410
My toes are by on it.
All right.

1227
01:05:11,410 --> 01:05:13,290
Like, who cares?
And then they say, well,

1228
01:05:13,290 --> 01:05:14,930
actually, you know what?
I also had a bunch of other

1229
01:05:14,930 --> 01:05:17,490
internal organs swapped out
like, yeah, all right.

1230
01:05:18,130 --> 01:05:20,850
You know, at what point, at
what, at what point do you say,

1231
01:05:20,930 --> 01:05:24,490
OK, now, now this is no longer,
like, you know, we're no longer

1232
01:05:24,490 --> 01:05:25,490
married.
You know, this is not going to

1233
01:05:25,490 --> 01:05:26,250
work.
And.

1234
01:05:26,250 --> 01:05:28,010
And I don't think it has
anything to do with your gene no

1235
01:05:28,010 --> 01:05:30,330
more or what the anatomical
structures you have.

1236
01:05:30,330 --> 01:05:34,740
But once you get to the point
where it's it's it's that amount

1237
01:05:34,740 --> 01:05:37,660
of care.
You know the the cone of caring

1238
01:05:37,660 --> 01:05:40,340
and compassion that you can
generate if that if, if that

1239
01:05:40,340 --> 01:05:43,460
isn't there and if this like
these fundamental being able to

1240
01:05:43,900 --> 01:05:47,140
the same existential you know
concerns and and preferences and

1241
01:05:47,140 --> 01:05:50,140
all that that that's that's
where it's at that that's where

1242
01:05:50,140 --> 01:05:51,620
you want to have a match.
So.

1243
01:05:51,620 --> 01:05:53,460
So I think it's about
relationships, not just about

1244
01:05:53,460 --> 01:05:55,420
control.
I mean, I love that, but do you

1245
01:05:55,420 --> 01:05:58,340
ever get concerned with with the
possibility that perhaps, let's

1246
01:05:58,340 --> 01:06:02,080
say, a?
Just trying to think of the most

1247
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:04,440
random example.
Let's say you've got a communist

1248
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:07,120
and A and someone who's
completely on the other side of

1249
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:09,200
the fence.
At what point would you say

1250
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:12,200
social or psychosocial aspects
would play a big role in

1251
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:13,880
differentiating a human at that
regard?

1252
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:18,000
Sorry, I'm not sure I'm seeing
the question.

1253
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:20,720
Say again though.
Let's say two people who've got

1254
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:25,800
fundamentally different social
views in terms of trying to live

1255
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:28,400
together, show compassion, show
love, the diversity.

1256
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:31,290
That's their values.
How would it implicate?

1257
01:06:31,290 --> 01:06:35,450
What philosophical or scientific
implications would this have on

1258
01:06:35,450 --> 01:06:39,410
the on your framework?
I see so.

1259
01:06:39,410 --> 01:06:42,810
So my framework isn't a
sufficient condition.

1260
01:06:42,810 --> 01:06:46,690
It's a necessary condition.
So, so it's still might be that

1261
01:06:46,690 --> 01:06:50,370
your cognitive lycones are
similar in size, but you're not

1262
01:06:50,370 --> 01:06:53,570
a good match because you have
diver, you know, radically

1263
01:06:53,570 --> 01:06:55,170
divergent political views or
something.

1264
01:06:55,170 --> 01:06:56,410
I mean, that's possible.
I'm not.

1265
01:06:56,410 --> 01:06:59,940
I'm not saying that it's
sufficient to have you know but

1266
01:06:59,940 --> 01:07:02,900
but but on the other hand if you
think about it and I don't know

1267
01:07:03,020 --> 01:07:04,780
I guess different people will
answer this differently.

1268
01:07:04,780 --> 01:07:07,380
But if you were going to Mars
and you had a choice between

1269
01:07:07,380 --> 01:07:12,020
going with something that had no
political views a toaster and

1270
01:07:12,020 --> 01:07:14,140
and that's it and you would
never you you couldn't agree on

1271
01:07:14,140 --> 01:07:16,260
anything but you also wouldn't
disagree on anything right.

1272
01:07:16,260 --> 01:07:17,820
You, you know it's a it's a
toaster oven.

1273
01:07:18,700 --> 01:07:24,260
Or you're going with someone who
has your level of of cognitive

1274
01:07:24,260 --> 01:07:27,860
like Cohen, but they have a
different perspective on things.

1275
01:07:27,980 --> 01:07:32,580
And is that better or worse?
After how much time do you want

1276
01:07:32,580 --> 01:07:35,260
to spend with a person who
disagrees with you versus with

1277
01:07:35,260 --> 01:07:36,620
something that has zero opinions
at all?

1278
01:07:36,660 --> 01:07:38,300
I don't know.
Some people might prefer the

1279
01:07:38,300 --> 01:07:40,140
toaster, I suppose.
I don't know.

1280
01:07:40,460 --> 01:07:43,980
But the point is, I think it's a
I think it's a necessary

1281
01:07:43,980 --> 01:07:45,700
condition not a sufficient 1 to
get along.

1282
01:07:45,860 --> 01:07:48,700
But but but it's and and of
course, I mean, I what do I know

1283
01:07:48,820 --> 01:07:50,500
about you?
I'm not telling anybody how to

1284
01:07:50,500 --> 01:07:52,700
get along with anybody.
But I'm just saying that that

1285
01:07:53,220 --> 01:07:58,380
the idea of how do you optimally
and ethically relate to another

1286
01:07:58,380 --> 01:08:04,500
system requires you to ask what
level of cognition it has, and

1287
01:08:04,500 --> 01:08:08,500
that will determine what types
of interactions you're likely to

1288
01:08:08,500 --> 01:08:10,470
have, you know?
And I think at that point, the

1289
01:08:10,470 --> 01:08:12,230
William James definition plays a
huge role.

1290
01:08:12,230 --> 01:08:15,270
I mean that goal directedness of
trying to accomplish something

1291
01:08:15,270 --> 01:08:17,630
together plays a fundamental
role in this.

1292
01:08:19,149 --> 01:08:21,950
It'll obviously bring the units
together when we're thinking

1293
01:08:21,950 --> 01:08:25,870
when we talk about Mars and this
potential when you look at Mars

1294
01:08:25,870 --> 01:08:29,350
as a place for us to come just
off topic a little from a

1295
01:08:29,830 --> 01:08:33,069
developmental biology background
for someone so well versed in

1296
01:08:33,390 --> 01:08:34,870
biology.
What are your thoughts on that

1297
01:08:36,990 --> 01:08:38,950
Wait well this is outside my
expertise.

1298
01:08:38,950 --> 01:08:42,590
I don't I don't I don't know
anything really about about that

1299
01:08:42,590 --> 01:08:45,830
stuff I suppose.
I suppose the only kind of

1300
01:08:45,830 --> 01:08:52,790
generic thing I can say is that
my gut feeling is that biology

1301
01:08:52,790 --> 01:08:59,229
is incredibly adaptable and that
with some help I, you know, I I

1302
01:08:59,229 --> 01:09:01,430
guess I guess all I'm saying is
I, you know there are some

1303
01:09:01,430 --> 01:09:04,130
people that say that
fundamentally we are never going

1304
01:09:04,130 --> 01:09:06,010
to be able to live in these
environments for various

1305
01:09:06,010 --> 01:09:09,649
reasons.
And just my gut feeling is that

1306
01:09:09,649 --> 01:09:12,330
that's wrong.
I think we will, but I have no

1307
01:09:12,330 --> 01:09:15,330
expertise in this whatsoever.
So there's Take that with every

1308
01:09:15,330 --> 01:09:19,850
grain of salt.
Mike, when we try our best to

1309
01:09:19,890 --> 01:09:25,170
define selves, cognition, we're
obviously faced with these

1310
01:09:25,170 --> 01:09:27,410
barriers and it becomes clear
that there's no.

1311
01:09:28,060 --> 01:09:29,899
The sort of phase transitions
that are occurring.

1312
01:09:29,899 --> 01:09:31,300
I mean this is clearly a
continuum.

1313
01:09:31,740 --> 01:09:36,620
When you look at certain neuro
certain computational theories

1314
01:09:36,620 --> 01:09:41,300
and mathematical concepts, they
often when it comes to computing

1315
01:09:41,300 --> 01:09:46,140
and artificial intelligence,
they seem to claim that they are

1316
01:09:46,140 --> 01:09:48,250
certain.
Phase transitions that occur

1317
01:09:48,250 --> 01:09:50,689
that make certain systems more
complex than others within the

1318
01:09:50,689 --> 01:09:52,569
mathematics.
What are your thoughts on that?

1319
01:09:52,569 --> 01:09:54,290
Do you have any opinion on that?
Cuz I know certain

1320
01:09:54,290 --> 01:09:56,970
mathematicians who often say
this that there is a certain

1321
01:09:57,050 --> 01:09:58,170
phase transition that occurs
here.

1322
01:09:59,170 --> 01:10:01,370
Does it apply to biology or
life?

1323
01:10:01,410 --> 01:10:04,290
Yeah, yeah, no.
Well, there certainly seem to be

1324
01:10:04,290 --> 01:10:06,610
phase transitions in mathematics
and logic.

1325
01:10:06,610 --> 01:10:14,070
I mean one of the few definitive
kinds of phase transitions that

1326
01:10:14,070 --> 01:10:17,550
I know of our some is something
like a logical proof right.

1327
01:10:17,990 --> 01:10:20,270
If it let you know, let's say
it's got three complete you know

1328
01:10:20,270 --> 01:10:23,910
3-3 parts to the proof.
As soon as you have all three

1329
01:10:23,910 --> 01:10:27,590
parts that thing is locked solid
and if you don't have the three

1330
01:10:27,590 --> 01:10:30,190
parts you have nothing and there
is no in between right.

1331
01:10:30,190 --> 01:10:32,430
I mean this fuzzy logic and
stuff like that but but but

1332
01:10:32,430 --> 01:10:37,150
under under standard logic you
know you either have you either

1333
01:10:37,150 --> 01:10:40,390
have the argument or you don't
and and that's that so so so I

1334
01:10:40,390 --> 01:10:44,140
think there are things like that
and I'm not even you know I'm

1335
01:10:44,140 --> 01:10:46,740
not even against phase
transitions in biology.

1336
01:10:46,740 --> 01:10:51,340
I mean I do think the fact that
there's a continuum doesn't mean

1337
01:10:51,340 --> 01:10:55,460
that you know we don't have kind
of cognitive capacities that a

1338
01:10:55,580 --> 01:10:57,780
that a sea slog is just not
going to have right.

1339
01:10:57,780 --> 01:10:59,980
I mean that's you know, we we,
we, we do.

1340
01:10:59,980 --> 01:11:07,300
But but the question is, I'm not
even sure what I mean.

1341
01:11:07,420 --> 01:11:11,210
What what, what is a, what is a
good description of a phase

1342
01:11:11,210 --> 01:11:14,690
transition.
So imagine you have some sort of

1343
01:11:14,690 --> 01:11:17,250
parameter and as you change the
parameter eventually boom,

1344
01:11:17,250 --> 01:11:22,530
something happens, right.
So you can ask yourself what's a

1345
01:11:22,530 --> 01:11:27,410
good description of that?
Because if I can say in detail

1346
01:11:27,410 --> 01:11:31,370
exactly why it is that at a
certain level of that parameter

1347
01:11:31,490 --> 01:11:35,070
something happened, then it's
not really an emergent phase

1348
01:11:35,070 --> 01:11:37,030
transition because you have the
smooth story.

1349
01:11:37,030 --> 01:11:39,470
You can say, well, it was here,
here, and at this point, now

1350
01:11:39,470 --> 01:11:40,670
it's here and so on.
OK.

1351
01:11:41,550 --> 01:11:44,390
But if you don't do that, then
you really don't have any

1352
01:11:44,390 --> 01:11:47,790
explanation at all.
So So what is, you know, what?

1353
01:11:47,790 --> 01:11:52,190
What is an ideal?
You know, it's one of those

1354
01:11:52,190 --> 01:11:57,070
things that once you have a
detailed explanation, but it

1355
01:11:57,070 --> 01:11:59,390
seems to kind of go away in some
important sense.

1356
01:11:59,790 --> 01:12:03,590
And so from that perspective
it's almost like if it's almost

1357
01:12:03,590 --> 01:12:06,350
like a statement of, I don't
want to say a statement of

1358
01:12:06,350 --> 01:12:10,030
ignorance, but but it's a it's
it's a statement that works well

1359
01:12:10,030 --> 01:12:13,670
on one level and then like many
things disappears when you sort

1360
01:12:13,670 --> 01:12:16,470
of look at look much closely,
much more closely.

1361
01:12:16,470 --> 01:12:20,790
And the other thing is for for a
lot of these things the scale is

1362
01:12:20,790 --> 01:12:24,350
very relative.
So, so, so for example somebody

1363
01:12:24,350 --> 01:12:27,950
will say you know the human
brain does this and that and

1364
01:12:27,950 --> 01:12:32,140
I'll say okay, so, so in
embryonic development you used

1365
01:12:32,140 --> 01:12:36,100
to be 1 cell.
When did this human brain show

1366
01:12:36,100 --> 01:12:38,180
up?
And I'll say well when the, I

1367
01:12:38,180 --> 01:12:40,460
don't know, I'm making this up
like when the frontal cortex

1368
01:12:40,460 --> 01:12:42,820
developed say okay but that
takes months.

1369
01:12:42,900 --> 01:12:47,620
So like when exactly and say,
well, right, so, so you step

1370
01:12:47,620 --> 01:12:51,860
back and it certainly looks
sharp, but when you zoom in a

1371
01:12:51,860 --> 01:12:54,610
little bit, you find out that,
yeah, every second of

1372
01:12:54,610 --> 01:12:57,210
development some cells are
dividing and some other stuff is

1373
01:12:57,210 --> 01:12:58,530
happening.
Like it's a, you know, if you

1374
01:12:58,530 --> 01:13:01,410
zoom in, it's a nicely smooth
process and there's nowhere that

1375
01:13:01,410 --> 01:13:03,730
you can just draw a sharp line.
So that's another thing.

1376
01:13:03,730 --> 01:13:08,650
I think that these these face
transitions are kind of they're

1377
01:13:08,650 --> 01:13:12,530
in the eye of the beholder.
They they appear depending on

1378
01:13:12,650 --> 01:13:17,050
what formalism you're using to
understand them, right.

1379
01:13:17,050 --> 01:13:19,530
If you're using binary logic,
then you'll get some, and if

1380
01:13:19,530 --> 01:13:21,010
you're using fuzzy logic, you
may not.

1381
01:13:21,890 --> 01:13:24,610
And they depend on what the time
scale that you're using.

1382
01:13:24,810 --> 01:13:26,610
At one time scale, it looks
super sharp.

1383
01:13:26,610 --> 01:13:29,690
At another time scale it's like
this long tedious gradual

1384
01:13:29,690 --> 01:13:32,250
process.
So yeah, it's like, like many

1385
01:13:32,250 --> 01:13:33,930
things, I think it's in the eye
of the beholder do.

1386
01:13:34,730 --> 01:13:37,410
You think one of those.
One of the concepts that we

1387
01:13:37,410 --> 01:13:41,450
often talk about within
understanding the concept of

1388
01:13:41,450 --> 01:13:45,270
self, consciousness, etc.
That might also benefit from

1389
01:13:45,270 --> 01:13:48,590
this continuum viewpoint would
be language.

1390
01:13:48,590 --> 01:13:51,750
Do you think that, cuz a lot of
people often say that, look,

1391
01:13:51,950 --> 01:13:54,110
there'd be no way for them to
sort of articulate any of these

1392
01:13:54,110 --> 01:13:58,510
thoughts without this
phenomenon, this phenomenon of

1393
01:13:58,510 --> 01:14:01,070
language?
What does your work have

1394
01:14:01,070 --> 01:14:02,750
anything to do with this at any
point?

1395
01:14:02,750 --> 01:14:04,230
Do you feel like it addresses
that?

1396
01:14:05,700 --> 01:14:06,180
Yeah.
Yeah.

1397
01:14:06,180 --> 01:14:08,140
Interesting question.
Yeah.

1398
01:14:08,140 --> 01:14:12,180
I don't have enough expertise in
language specifically to to to

1399
01:14:12,180 --> 01:14:17,860
say much with certainty.
Put it this way, I I as much as

1400
01:14:17,860 --> 01:14:21,620
I like you know non neural
cognition and and the wisdom of

1401
01:14:21,620 --> 01:14:25,140
the body and all those things.
I don't have any reason and I've

1402
01:14:25,140 --> 01:14:30,260
never claimed that the other
organs in the body use language

1403
01:14:30,300 --> 01:14:31,620
in the way.
I mean I do think they solve

1404
01:14:31,620 --> 01:14:32,980
problems.
I think they have memories, I

1405
01:14:32,980 --> 01:14:35,840
think they have preferences and
so on, but I don't have any

1406
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:37,520
reason to think they use
language in the way that the

1407
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:39,800
brain does.
I'm not saying it's impossible.

1408
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:42,280
I'm just saying there's no, I
don't know of any evidence for

1409
01:14:42,280 --> 01:14:45,480
it.
So it's entirely possible that

1410
01:14:45,480 --> 01:14:49,240
one of the nice things about
brains, and maybe you know human

1411
01:14:49,240 --> 01:14:53,720
brains in particular, is is this
capacity for a formal, for

1412
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:56,880
formal language in the way that
people who study, you know, the

1413
01:14:57,320 --> 01:15:01,880
the the logic of language and so
on, it can generate and I'm not

1414
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:05,480
sure that other organs can do it
so but but again that's not, you

1415
01:15:05,480 --> 01:15:10,560
know, not really my.
So your work as we know it

1416
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:11,800
touches on so many different
fields.

1417
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:14,560
At some point it goes into limb
regeneration.

1418
01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:17,880
I mean your understanding of
biology and regenerative,

1419
01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:20,560
regenerative medicine at this
point is becoming so

1420
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:24,000
spectacular.
Anything within that sphere that

1421
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:26,000
you particularly excited about
at this point?

1422
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:31,720
Well, I'm excited about a lot of
lot of the empirical work that

1423
01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:35,800
we're doing.
I mean my goal among among other

1424
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:39,440
goals, one of my fundamental
goals is to impact human

1425
01:15:39,440 --> 01:15:41,760
medicine.
So at some point I would love it

1426
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:45,120
if if if some of the stuff got
into the clinic while while I'm

1427
01:15:45,120 --> 01:15:48,360
still around, I mean I think I
think it will get there no

1428
01:15:48,360 --> 01:15:50,680
matter what but but it'd be nice
to be nice to see it.

1429
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:55,520
We are working on bioelectric
approaches to limb regeneration

1430
01:15:55,520 --> 01:16:00,320
where you know I I never give
time so I can't I can't know and

1431
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:01,400
ahead of time what's going to
happen.

1432
01:16:01,400 --> 01:16:07,520
But we're we're in mice now
we're working in we've got some

1433
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:10,920
work on bioelectrics of cancer
in human cells now.

1434
01:16:10,920 --> 01:16:14,280
So you know kind of moving
moving from frog on onwards.

1435
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:16,480
Yeah, very excited about that
stuff.

1436
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:20,310
I'm very excited about the work
on them, synthetic organisms.

1437
01:16:20,310 --> 01:16:23,150
We'll have some really cool work
on this coming out in the next

1438
01:16:23,510 --> 01:16:26,590
probably month or two.
Following up on all the Zenobot

1439
01:16:26,910 --> 01:16:30,430
stuff that we've done.
Yeah, I feel like there's a huge

1440
01:16:30,430 --> 01:16:31,950
amount.
Sorry.

1441
01:16:32,310 --> 01:16:33,790
Sorry, I was just saying I'm
looking forward to that

1442
01:16:33,790 --> 01:16:34,710
continue.
I was listening.

1443
01:16:37,650 --> 01:16:38,010
Yeah.
Yeah.

1444
01:16:38,010 --> 01:16:39,490
There.
Yeah, there's going to be there

1445
01:16:39,490 --> 01:16:42,090
there's some there's some
amazing stuff in the review now

1446
01:16:42,090 --> 01:16:45,770
and and and lots of other things
that are in the pipeline that

1447
01:16:45,770 --> 01:16:48,410
are going to kind of come come
come out after I'm yeah, I'm

1448
01:16:48,410 --> 01:16:51,530
pretty excited about it.
It's pretty you know it's the

1449
01:16:51,570 --> 01:16:55,890
the the last 10% of any paper is
always the hardest you know so

1450
01:16:55,890 --> 01:16:58,850
so you, you know you make a
fundamental finding and then you

1451
01:16:58,850 --> 01:17:00,850
you know sort of flesh it out
and you kind of already see

1452
01:17:00,850 --> 01:17:03,250
where what the story is.
But then getting into the point

1453
01:17:03,250 --> 01:17:06,050
where all the sort of the i's
are dotted and t's are crossed

1454
01:17:06,050 --> 01:17:08,050
and you can actually get it out,
that takes forever.

1455
01:17:08,050 --> 01:17:11,050
And you know that always.
That always feels like a long

1456
01:17:11,050 --> 01:17:14,450
time, but yeah, it'll get there.
When you got into this, did you

1457
01:17:14,450 --> 01:17:17,490
ever feel at any point that
you'd be cuz moving from this

1458
01:17:17,650 --> 01:17:20,530
physiological perspective has
not taken you into the

1459
01:17:20,530 --> 01:17:23,650
psychological era like domain.
When you get these emails from

1460
01:17:23,650 --> 01:17:26,690
people asking about these, the
implications of computational

1461
01:17:26,690 --> 01:17:28,770
boundaries of self and how it
can affect us psychologically.

1462
01:17:28,850 --> 01:17:30,050
Did you ever think this would
happen?

1463
01:17:30,050 --> 01:17:32,210
Did you?
Where were you planning on that?

1464
01:17:32,210 --> 01:17:34,770
Or is it just something that's
occurred at the time?

1465
01:17:35,450 --> 01:17:37,530
Well, so there's two pieces to
that.

1466
01:17:37,530 --> 01:17:41,210
The piece so, so from from day
one, and I'm talking about when

1467
01:17:41,210 --> 01:17:45,490
I was very, very young, these
were the issues that I was

1468
01:17:45,490 --> 01:17:47,690
interested in.
So I I was always interested in

1469
01:17:47,690 --> 01:17:51,530
issues of mind and matter and
and and and machines and and

1470
01:17:51,530 --> 01:17:55,290
programming and living organisms
and relationships between the

1471
01:17:55,290 --> 01:17:59,010
alien beings and all this kind
of stuff was always interested

1472
01:17:59,010 --> 01:18:02,100
in that.
So I'm not at all surprised,

1473
01:18:02,100 --> 01:18:05,620
although incredibly pleased that
the empirical work has actually

1474
01:18:05,620 --> 01:18:08,460
sort of dovetailed with that
that that that doesn't always

1475
01:18:08,460 --> 01:18:11,820
happen and that you know that
that's that's kind of a the the

1476
01:18:11,820 --> 01:18:15,220
thing that the thing that
surprises me still to this day

1477
01:18:15,540 --> 01:18:21,540
is that any of this is actually
working to the level that people

1478
01:18:21,540 --> 01:18:24,660
are interested in it.
So I kind of assumed when I was

1479
01:18:24,660 --> 01:18:28,840
younger that what would happen
is I would pursue these things

1480
01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:30,400
on my own.
I would be sort of interested in

1481
01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:33,440
it, but that fundamentally no
one would ever pay attention.

1482
01:18:33,440 --> 01:18:35,880
None of it would would develop
to the point where anybody would

1483
01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:38,880
care and I would code or I would
write code for a living, which I

1484
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:40,480
used to do.
And you know, and that that that

1485
01:18:40,480 --> 01:18:42,520
worked fine.
That I would just kind of write

1486
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:44,680
code for a living and think
about these things in my spare

1487
01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:47,080
time and and you know maybe
write some some stuff that

1488
01:18:47,080 --> 01:18:51,020
nobody would ever read.
So and you know and I was told

1489
01:18:51,740 --> 01:18:54,740
many times in in grad school
that I'd soon be you know kicked

1490
01:18:54,740 --> 01:18:57,140
out and and that would be that
and then I and then I would go

1491
01:18:57,140 --> 01:19:00,100
back to coding and so so I don't
know to this day I find it.

1492
01:19:00,100 --> 01:19:03,220
I sometimes, I sometimes just
kind of stop and think I'm an

1493
01:19:03,220 --> 01:19:05,220
actual scientist.
Like that's crazy to think

1494
01:19:05,220 --> 01:19:06,580
about.
Like and we've done some things

1495
01:19:06,580 --> 01:19:08,500
that are that are kind of cool
and some people care about.

1496
01:19:08,500 --> 01:19:09,780
It's amazing.
I'm.

1497
01:19:09,900 --> 01:19:11,660
I'm still amazed by it every
day.

1498
01:19:12,140 --> 01:19:15,020
I mean, some of the work you're
doing is it's it's so

1499
01:19:15,020 --> 01:19:16,580
incredible.
I mean, the last time we spoke,

1500
01:19:16,580 --> 01:19:20,540
I remember saying.
So many people have had a Nobel

1501
01:19:20,540 --> 01:19:24,260
Prize already and you're just
the tip of the iceberg of all

1502
01:19:24,260 --> 01:19:27,740
the work you're currently doing.
So it's there's so much more to

1503
01:19:27,740 --> 01:19:29,300
discover.
There's so much more to see.

1504
01:19:29,300 --> 01:19:32,060
It must be super exciting to see
it from your perspective because

1505
01:19:32,060 --> 01:19:34,220
you're watching this happen
moment for moment.

1506
01:19:34,220 --> 01:19:38,020
We're just seeing glimpses of
the spectacular eyes, of

1507
01:19:38,020 --> 01:19:39,900
wonderful new signs.
It must be completely mind

1508
01:19:39,900 --> 01:19:41,340
boggling to watch it from your
perspective.

1509
01:19:41,770 --> 01:19:43,170
Yeah.
It's absolutely mind boggling

1510
01:19:43,170 --> 01:19:45,450
and I think this is this is also
maybe a good time to mention

1511
01:19:45,450 --> 01:19:48,570
that and this is this is really
key is that it's not just me

1512
01:19:48,570 --> 01:19:51,130
right.
So so so my group I mean I I

1513
01:19:51,130 --> 01:19:54,210
write some of the crazy stuff
but but the rest of there's

1514
01:19:54,210 --> 01:19:59,370
there's there's 30 people here
and so they do a huge amount of

1515
01:19:59,370 --> 01:20:01,250
the work.
They're they're they're

1516
01:20:01,250 --> 01:20:04,370
brilliant and and very
hardworking and it would

1517
01:20:04,370 --> 01:20:06,010
absolutely not happen without
them.

1518
01:20:06,010 --> 01:20:07,930
So so it's not just me I'm sort
of the.

1519
01:20:08,440 --> 01:20:12,000
The the tip of the sphere of of
of an amazing group that I'm.

1520
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:13,640
I'm super fortunate to work
with.

1521
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:16,600
Yeah.
And and and it is.

1522
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:19,000
I'm boggling.
You know I see stuff on an

1523
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:21,600
almost daily basis that you know
people show me data and then I

1524
01:20:21,600 --> 01:20:24,120
see things.
I'm like, you know just just

1525
01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:25,240
amazing.
Yeah.

1526
01:20:25,240 --> 01:20:27,560
So I mean what can I say It's
the it's the best job in the

1527
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:30,600
world that is 0 complaints.
I mean there are a lot of hard

1528
01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:33,240
parts and you know people who
criticize academia.

1529
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:36,240
Yeah, there, there's a lot of
difficult parts and a lot of

1530
01:20:36,520 --> 01:20:41,180
things that are that require
lots of effort and are

1531
01:20:41,180 --> 01:20:44,020
unfortunate in some cases and
probably should be fixed.

1532
01:20:44,500 --> 01:20:48,580
But in the end, I I don't know
what else would be a more fun

1533
01:20:48,580 --> 01:20:52,260
thing to be doing.
I've got, I mean it's, it's

1534
01:20:52,260 --> 01:20:54,780
truly spectacular, Mike.
Just keep it up from my side.

1535
01:20:54,820 --> 01:20:55,820
I've got a couple questions.
Yeah.

1536
01:20:55,820 --> 01:20:58,580
And they just really like short
phrases because I came across

1537
01:20:58,580 --> 01:21:01,180
that video of you from the world
the other day where can cells

1538
01:21:01,180 --> 01:21:03,100
think?
I found it, but it's a very

1539
01:21:03,100 --> 01:21:04,620
wonderful video.
But just to answer that

1540
01:21:04,620 --> 01:21:06,580
questions, can cells think what?
What are your thoughts of.

1541
01:21:08,320 --> 01:21:13,000
Well, I mean you it depends on
the definition of think.

1542
01:21:13,000 --> 01:21:17,000
But I I think in for any useful
definition I think the answer is

1543
01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:19,840
yes.
You know we we can we can come

1544
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:22,920
up with definitions that exclude
them in principle and we can

1545
01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:25,680
stick to you know somebody,
somebody could say that that for

1546
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:29,120
them thinking has to be some
sort of high order selfaware.

1547
01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:34,360
I know that I know you know
whatever I I don't particularly

1548
01:21:34,360 --> 01:21:37,520
think that's that's a you know
that's a good definition I I I

1549
01:21:37,520 --> 01:21:40,960
would like a more expansive
definition and and under under

1550
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:42,640
those kind of definitions yeah I
think.

1551
01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:46,240
I think absolutely.
What is the Self?

1552
01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:54,360
Well and and I'm not claiming to
have the, I'm not claiming

1553
01:21:54,360 --> 01:21:59,040
there's 11 correct definition.
But I'll but I'll sort of try to

1554
01:21:59,040 --> 01:22:01,760
try to work up a useful one.
Yeah.

1555
01:22:01,760 --> 01:22:04,680
I think.
I think a self is a model

1556
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:09,720
created by either some sort of
third person observer.

1557
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:12,800
So that could be a scientist,
that could be a con specific,

1558
01:22:12,800 --> 01:22:16,640
that could be a parasite, that
could be a whatever, so some

1559
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:20,000
other some other observer or by
the system itself.

1560
01:22:20,320 --> 01:22:25,000
So a self is a is, a is a model
and it's a bundle that that

1561
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:26,520
model is a bundle of a few
things.

1562
01:22:27,150 --> 01:22:31,070
It's a guess as to where the
boundary is between a system in

1563
01:22:31,070 --> 01:22:34,990
the outside world.
It's a guess about the problem

1564
01:22:34,990 --> 01:22:37,590
spaces in which that agent
operates.

1565
01:22:37,950 --> 01:22:42,030
It's a guess about the size of
the cognitive light cone that

1566
01:22:42,030 --> 01:22:44,430
that system might have.
And it's a guess about the

1567
01:22:44,430 --> 01:22:46,990
competencies that that system
has to get its goals

1568
01:22:46,990 --> 01:22:49,310
accomplished to the IQ level, so
to speak.

1569
01:22:49,630 --> 01:22:54,450
And so that that that bundle of
things is what a self is and the

1570
01:22:54,450 --> 01:22:59,970
system itself has that you know
may may have even if it's not

1571
01:23:00,050 --> 01:23:03,730
second order conscious meaning
that it there may know the

1572
01:23:03,730 --> 01:23:06,810
system may not have the capacity
to think Gee I'm a self and I

1573
01:23:06,810 --> 01:23:09,970
meet these criteria like humans
can do that but but many systems

1574
01:23:09,970 --> 01:23:10,810
can't.
But that's okay.

1575
01:23:10,970 --> 01:23:15,130
They still, they still have
internally, they still have a

1576
01:23:15,130 --> 01:23:20,370
model that allows them to get
around the world by by by being

1577
01:23:20,370 --> 01:23:22,490
able to demarcate themselves
from the rest of it.

1578
01:23:22,730 --> 01:23:24,190
And that's what it takes, you
know?

1579
01:23:25,910 --> 01:23:29,230
I wrote this down.
It says man a machine.

1580
01:23:29,550 --> 01:23:32,310
Cuz I know you quoted it was a
paper published.

1581
01:23:32,310 --> 01:23:35,150
I can't remember by who.
Man a machine.

1582
01:23:35,190 --> 01:23:37,710
Do you remember?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1583
01:23:37,710 --> 01:23:41,110
Lemon tree, yeah.
Yes, So I wrote Man a machine

1584
01:23:41,190 --> 01:23:51,290
expand.
Well, I mean, OK well a lot of

1585
01:23:51,290 --> 01:23:55,890
people are really worried about
machine like analogies for

1586
01:23:55,890 --> 01:24:00,450
humans.
And and I get it, it's it's one

1587
01:24:00,450 --> 01:24:04,770
way to be mistaken.
If you if you use for a system

1588
01:24:04,770 --> 01:24:07,930
like a human, if you use
techniques that are appropriate

1589
01:24:07,930 --> 01:24:10,450
for the left side of that
spectrum where you're dealing

1590
01:24:10,450 --> 01:24:14,450
with you know mechanical clocks
and things like that, yeah,

1591
01:24:14,450 --> 01:24:17,450
you're you're going to make,
you're going to have a very

1592
01:24:17,450 --> 01:24:20,210
suboptimal the interaction.
You're not going to be able to

1593
01:24:20,210 --> 01:24:22,330
predict and control much.
You're going to make many

1594
01:24:22,330 --> 01:24:25,610
ethical lapses as as we've done
in the past.

1595
01:24:28,330 --> 01:24:33,490
But at the same time if you
know, if if you believe that the

1596
01:24:33,490 --> 01:24:39,090
human body and mind don't obey
various laws is the, which is

1597
01:24:39,290 --> 01:24:41,410
basically a definition of what
the machine is, right?

1598
01:24:41,410 --> 01:24:44,330
It's a I think a reasonable
definition of a machine is that

1599
01:24:45,100 --> 01:24:47,660
it's a it's a system that is
rationally understandable

1600
01:24:47,660 --> 01:24:50,860
because it obeys various laws
and thus thus it can be put to

1601
01:24:50,860 --> 01:24:52,860
various uses and and interacting
with and so on.

1602
01:24:53,140 --> 01:24:57,660
If you don't think that humans
have machine like aspects, you

1603
01:24:57,660 --> 01:25:01,300
are also going to not get very
far in understanding what we are

1604
01:25:01,300 --> 01:25:03,660
and how to relate to each other.
The the difference is to

1605
01:25:03,660 --> 01:25:05,220
understand what kind of machine
we are.

1606
01:25:05,260 --> 01:25:10,820
We are amazing, remarkable,
ethically important, morally

1607
01:25:10,820 --> 01:25:14,950
valuable spiritual machines.
That is what we are and we're

1608
01:25:14,950 --> 01:25:18,510
trying to trying to say that
we're not machines, is is I

1609
01:25:18,510 --> 01:25:21,630
think silly.
But the real question is what

1610
01:25:21,630 --> 01:25:23,750
kind of machine?
Not not the kind that that we've

1611
01:25:23,750 --> 01:25:27,350
been making since you know since
you know the early days of of

1612
01:25:27,350 --> 01:25:31,100
mechanical clocks and things.
And I think that you know

1613
01:25:31,100 --> 01:25:34,980
sometimes when when when I when
we talk about this stuff in in

1614
01:25:35,300 --> 01:25:37,220
if I give a talk to a philosophy
group or something.

1615
01:25:37,380 --> 01:25:39,900
One of my first slides is this,
this guy.

1616
01:25:39,900 --> 01:25:44,820
And it was, he was just, you
know, just a fan who sent me a

1617
01:25:44,820 --> 01:25:49,540
picture and I and I use this.
Now he had some surgery on his

1618
01:25:49,540 --> 01:25:52,300
arm and what you see is and this
this kind of gross.

1619
01:25:52,300 --> 01:25:53,980
But don't worry.
Like the picture is way, way

1620
01:25:53,980 --> 01:25:56,140
grosser.
But I like to use it to sort of

1621
01:25:56,260 --> 01:26:00,530
shock people out of this thing.
Imagine, imagine a human arm and

1622
01:26:00,530 --> 01:26:03,250
it's and it's cut down the
middle and opened up like this

1623
01:26:03,650 --> 01:26:06,330
and there's a metallic sort of
thing and it's got a bunch of

1624
01:26:06,330 --> 01:26:08,370
screws in it.
And the surgeon is in there

1625
01:26:08,650 --> 01:26:11,690
putting in, you know, these
literally using a socket wrench

1626
01:26:11,690 --> 01:26:14,210
and he's screwing a bunch of
screws in and he screwed it to

1627
01:26:14,210 --> 01:26:16,130
the bone and there's some
electrodes and a bunch of other

1628
01:26:16,130 --> 01:26:18,210
stuff.
Now none of this would be

1629
01:26:18,210 --> 01:26:21,370
possible if we weren't to some
degree a machine.

1630
01:26:21,700 --> 01:26:24,100
That much is clear.
When by the time you're using a

1631
01:26:24,100 --> 01:26:28,220
socket wrench on something, it's
partly a machine now.

1632
01:26:28,300 --> 01:26:31,340
Now, that's not the same.
Now when that same person goes

1633
01:26:31,620 --> 01:26:35,100
to therapy afterwards and you
know and and does

1634
01:26:35,100 --> 01:26:37,860
psychoanalysis, you're not using
the socket wrench at that point.

1635
01:26:37,860 --> 01:26:40,980
It's a different set of tools.
So, so that's the time to to to

1636
01:26:41,020 --> 01:26:42,420
to not act like a simple
machine.

1637
01:26:42,620 --> 01:26:45,180
But you know you kind of see
when you see that picture like

1638
01:26:45,180 --> 01:26:48,220
you can you can sort of be
philosophically outraged at

1639
01:26:48,220 --> 01:26:50,500
being called the machine.
But if you fall off your bike

1640
01:26:50,500 --> 01:26:52,900
and you need a metal thing into
your arm, this is what it's

1641
01:26:52,900 --> 01:26:54,900
going to look like and it's
going to be very machine like

1642
01:26:55,340 --> 01:26:57,300
so.
And somebody else is going to

1643
01:26:57,300 --> 01:27:02,380
get an implant in their brain
that secrets serotonin at the

1644
01:27:02,380 --> 01:27:07,260
right time and helps you know,
overcome some sort of, you know,

1645
01:27:08,140 --> 01:27:10,460
neurotransmitter imbalance or
something.

1646
01:27:10,940 --> 01:27:13,820
These machine aspects are really
useful.

1647
01:27:13,980 --> 01:27:15,580
Let's not pretend they don't
exist.

1648
01:27:15,940 --> 01:27:17,100
I mean, I completely agree with
you.

1649
01:27:17,100 --> 01:27:20,420
Every time if we're in an
orthopedic surgery, it's it's

1650
01:27:20,420 --> 01:27:22,840
so.
It's so strange to see it all

1651
01:27:22,840 --> 01:27:25,880
the time, the way orthopedic
surgeons literally look like

1652
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:28,840
mechanics.
It's it's uncanny.

1653
01:27:29,040 --> 01:27:32,320
It's strange that with hammers,
drills, it's it's very

1654
01:27:32,320 --> 01:27:33,560
mechanistic.
It's.

1655
01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:36,720
It's.
Yeah, but.

1656
01:27:36,720 --> 01:27:38,560
But.
And yet, though the the second

1657
01:27:38,560 --> 01:27:40,760
part, that's the first part to
this, the second part to this,

1658
01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:44,200
which always interests me, is
you've done all this stuff.

1659
01:27:44,800 --> 01:27:48,680
And then often the next step is,
well, now we let the body heal.

1660
01:27:49,050 --> 01:27:51,530
Well, right.
And so now, now, like, like,

1661
01:27:51,570 --> 01:27:53,810
like it's going to adjust all
this stuff, all these different

1662
01:27:53,810 --> 01:27:55,850
things going to happen.
And like, I'm not touching.

1663
01:27:56,330 --> 01:27:57,290
There's nothing I can do about
that.

1664
01:27:57,290 --> 01:27:58,850
You need six months for the body
to heal.

1665
01:27:59,130 --> 01:28:02,570
And and during those six months,
you're you're literally relying

1666
01:28:02,650 --> 01:28:05,850
on the agency of the cells and
tissues to do what they need to

1667
01:28:05,850 --> 01:28:07,810
do.
They're sitting next to titanium

1668
01:28:07,810 --> 01:28:08,730
now.
And that's OK.

1669
01:28:08,730 --> 01:28:10,890
They'll figure it out.
And you know, there's now some

1670
01:28:10,890 --> 01:28:12,650
weird electrode that's pacing
something.

1671
01:28:12,650 --> 01:28:14,690
Yeah, it's fine.
The cells will you know and and

1672
01:28:14,690 --> 01:28:17,010
after six months the person is
like oh I feel much you know my

1673
01:28:17,010 --> 01:28:19,930
it's been a tough six months but
I feel much better what happened

1674
01:28:20,370 --> 01:28:22,610
during that time right.
It's not it's not us sitting

1675
01:28:22,610 --> 01:28:25,570
there micromanaging this thing.
It's it's you're counting on the

1676
01:28:25,570 --> 01:28:28,770
body to to do what it knows how
to do.

1677
01:28:28,770 --> 01:28:30,530
In fact a lot of things that we
don't know how to do.

1678
01:28:30,970 --> 01:28:33,050
So so it's it's both sides
right.

1679
01:28:33,050 --> 01:28:36,410
It it's it's a machine it has
machine like aspects and it also

1680
01:28:36,410 --> 01:28:39,890
has agency and it also has
various competencies and and

1681
01:28:39,890 --> 01:28:42,770
it's OK that it's both you know
it's it's it's OK.

1682
01:28:43,050 --> 01:28:44,450
I like that I like that second,
but it does.

1683
01:28:44,450 --> 01:28:46,370
It is a good way to think about
it.

1684
01:28:47,170 --> 01:28:50,210
It really does help you to sort
of think of that concept I wrote

1685
01:28:50,210 --> 01:28:52,810
here.
Cognition all the Way down.

1686
01:28:52,850 --> 01:28:55,250
What about meta cognition all
the way down?

1687
01:28:58,130 --> 01:29:03,090
Yeah, well, so I'll give you a
story, Chris Fields.

1688
01:29:03,090 --> 01:29:09,450
So first put me on to this Years
ago you got a bacterium and the

1689
01:29:09,450 --> 01:29:13,850
bacterium is measuring the local
sugar concentration or some

1690
01:29:13,850 --> 01:29:18,060
other nutrient or something and
and and it goes up the gradient.

1691
01:29:19,420 --> 01:29:24,020
But if that bacterium encounters
some sugar that's actually

1692
01:29:24,020 --> 01:29:28,860
poisoned it's it's screwed
because because all it does is

1693
01:29:28,860 --> 01:29:33,300
it has a first order imperative
to to kind of increase that the

1694
01:29:33,300 --> 01:29:36,260
sugar concentration.
Now the version of metacognition

1695
01:29:36,260 --> 01:29:39,300
in that system would be this you
need a system and then this

1696
01:29:39,340 --> 01:29:41,500
apparently does exist in
bacteria already.

1697
01:29:41,900 --> 01:29:44,340
You need a system that doesn't
just measure the sugar directly.

1698
01:29:44,340 --> 01:29:46,300
What it measures is the outcome
or the output of your

1699
01:29:46,300 --> 01:29:49,060
metabolism.
So that's metacognition because

1700
01:29:49,460 --> 01:29:52,100
what you're asking is how am I
doing like how's my metabolism

1701
01:29:52,100 --> 01:29:55,460
doing you and and it's one level
above because I can't tell you

1702
01:29:55,540 --> 01:29:57,060
how much sugar there is.
I don't know how much sugar

1703
01:29:57,060 --> 01:29:59,060
there is, but I can tell you
that your metabolism is going

1704
01:29:59,060 --> 01:30:01,820
great or I can tell you that
your metabolism going terrible.

1705
01:30:02,260 --> 01:30:05,900
And that's the sort of thing
that you being able to ask

1706
01:30:05,900 --> 01:30:09,140
questions about yourself and
your own staff estate and how

1707
01:30:09,140 --> 01:30:11,330
things are going is really
critical.

1708
01:30:11,370 --> 01:30:14,410
And I would think that that is
the beginning of advanced

1709
01:30:14,410 --> 01:30:17,810
metacognition is just having
circuits that are not measuring

1710
01:30:17,810 --> 01:30:20,890
aspects of the outside world.
They're measuring aspects of of

1711
01:30:20,890 --> 01:30:23,530
you and how you're doing.
And that might be, you know, in

1712
01:30:23,530 --> 01:30:26,730
bacteria, it might be the output
of your metabolism and in humans

1713
01:30:26,730 --> 01:30:33,250
it might be the how you, how,
how you're doing in some sort of

1714
01:30:33,250 --> 01:30:36,290
social standing or you know, how
how am I doing in my in my tribe

1715
01:30:36,290 --> 01:30:37,810
and what do people think of me
and all that stuff.

1716
01:30:38,010 --> 01:30:42,130
So, so you know, or am I
learning calculus fast enough

1717
01:30:42,130 --> 01:30:43,210
for whatever, right?
So, so.

1718
01:30:43,210 --> 01:30:46,130
But but all of that is it all
shares the same underlying

1719
01:30:46,130 --> 01:30:48,410
concept, is that the sensors are
not pointing outwards, they're

1720
01:30:48,410 --> 01:30:51,650
pointing inwards.
Some of these some of these

1721
01:30:51,650 --> 01:30:53,170
comments I wrote are quite
ridiculous.

1722
01:30:53,170 --> 01:30:58,610
For example I wrote if you
regenerate a brain of someone at

1723
01:30:58,610 --> 01:31:00,890
some point if you let's say your
technology reaches that point

1724
01:31:01,650 --> 01:31:04,330
would regenerating a brain
that's not technically injured

1725
01:31:05,130 --> 01:31:07,970
be akin to creating a clone of
the breath.

1726
01:31:11,170 --> 01:31:15,610
I I mean it's an interesting
question I think that our the

1727
01:31:15,650 --> 01:31:19,210
the reason all these puzzles you
know it's like the old I mean in

1728
01:31:19,210 --> 01:31:21,810
philosophy is have this for for
decades the the the broken

1729
01:31:21,810 --> 01:31:24,650
transporter experiment right.
So you get in the transporter

1730
01:31:24,850 --> 01:31:30,680
and it normally just sort of,
you know, recreates a copy of

1731
01:31:30,680 --> 01:31:32,360
you somewhere else and it
destroys the original.

1732
01:31:32,360 --> 01:31:34,520
And that's fine.
But but one day it malfunctions

1733
01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:36,280
and it forgets it.
It just doesn't destroy the

1734
01:31:36,280 --> 01:31:38,080
original.
And now, my God, who, who is the

1735
01:31:38,080 --> 01:31:39,120
real me?
You got clones, right?

1736
01:31:39,120 --> 01:31:41,240
And there's a Star Trek episode
and everything else.

1737
01:31:41,240 --> 01:31:46,640
So, I mean all of these, all of
these issues strike us as

1738
01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:49,640
problems because our vocabulary
is bad.

1739
01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:52,360
You know, we, we don't have the
right vocabulary for this.

1740
01:31:52,840 --> 01:31:59,450
We can't even handle like what
happened to you to to the to the

1741
01:31:59,450 --> 01:32:01,250
you that was a child where where
do you go?

1742
01:32:01,530 --> 01:32:04,050
Like is he still here is he not
here We we don't you know these

1743
01:32:04,050 --> 01:32:06,530
binary this binary terminology
you know you don't have to get

1744
01:32:06,530 --> 01:32:09,010
really weird with with and
cloning and transporters and

1745
01:32:09,050 --> 01:32:10,690
what not to already have this
problem.

1746
01:32:11,010 --> 01:32:16,050
We we we already have this issue
that we change and as a you know

1747
01:32:16,050 --> 01:32:18,850
over time we change.
And I I don't know if I'm the

1748
01:32:18,850 --> 01:32:20,450
same person that I was.
It doesn't.

1749
01:32:20,450 --> 01:32:22,810
The question doesn't really
doesn't really make any sense.

1750
01:32:23,210 --> 01:32:27,460
But on a practical level could
you, you know, could you clone,

1751
01:32:29,500 --> 01:32:32,420
you know, I, I, I, I suspect I I
don't know.

1752
01:32:32,420 --> 01:32:35,500
But I suspect that cloning in
the traditional sense, where you

1753
01:32:35,500 --> 01:32:38,060
go from the egg onwards, I
don't.

1754
01:32:38,380 --> 01:32:42,900
I don't think you would recover
much mental, you know, content.

1755
01:32:43,980 --> 01:32:46,220
But there's a different version
which is what happens in

1756
01:32:46,220 --> 01:32:49,460
Plenaria.
So in Plenaria, if I train a

1757
01:32:49,460 --> 01:32:53,380
flatworm on something and then I
cut off its head and I keep the

1758
01:32:53,380 --> 01:32:57,260
tail, and the tail regrows a
brand new brain, that new brain

1759
01:32:57,260 --> 01:32:58,940
will remember the original
information.

1760
01:32:58,940 --> 01:33:01,540
OK, the McConnell discovered
that in the 60s.

1761
01:33:01,540 --> 01:33:04,380
We demonstrated in 2013.
I mean, it does work.

1762
01:33:05,380 --> 01:33:10,740
So that means that at least in
some species, some of the

1763
01:33:10,740 --> 01:33:13,060
information can be stored
elsewhere in the body and

1764
01:33:13,460 --> 01:33:16,700
imprinted onto a brand new brain
that forms because they have no

1765
01:33:16,700 --> 01:33:18,060
behavior until the brain shows
up.

1766
01:33:18,060 --> 01:33:20,340
The tail just sits there doing
nothing until the brain shows

1767
01:33:20,340 --> 01:33:24,110
up.
So could you know, Could you

1768
01:33:24,190 --> 01:33:27,550
spread that information to two
brains?

1769
01:33:28,070 --> 01:33:30,950
Sure, in plenary you could cut a
worm into 10 pieces.

1770
01:33:31,670 --> 01:33:34,510
They will all recover the
information and now you've got

1771
01:33:34,790 --> 01:33:39,500
10 what clones kind of you know
who's the original worm.

1772
01:33:40,180 --> 01:33:41,780
I don't know what Yeah.
I don't know what to do with

1773
01:33:41,780 --> 01:33:43,740
that question.
I don't I don't think it's you

1774
01:33:43,740 --> 01:33:47,340
know I don't think it's
particularly realistic anymore

1775
01:33:47,340 --> 01:33:50,980
but but but but that technology
you know I don't know if humans

1776
01:33:50,980 --> 01:33:56,860
do this or not the closest to
the closest to this the closest

1777
01:33:56,860 --> 01:34:00,460
data to this in humans that I
know of has to and this is very

1778
01:34:02,060 --> 01:34:04,780
kind of preliminary is the right
word but but it's you know there

1779
01:34:04,820 --> 01:34:07,860
aren't good studies on this yet
although I think at some point

1780
01:34:07,860 --> 01:34:11,060
there will be but there have
been anecdotal reports of

1781
01:34:11,700 --> 01:34:15,700
personality transfer during
heart lung transplants and and

1782
01:34:15,700 --> 01:34:17,980
it's interesting you don't hear
it from liver transplants.

1783
01:34:17,980 --> 01:34:19,460
You don't hear it from kidney
transplants.

1784
01:34:19,460 --> 01:34:22,820
But when you talk to doctors who
do heart lung and maybe you know

1785
01:34:22,820 --> 01:34:25,260
more about this than I do.
But when you when you when you

1786
01:34:25,260 --> 01:34:28,820
talk to to transplant surgeons
that do heart lung, they will

1787
01:34:28,820 --> 01:34:33,460
tell you that they often warn
recipients that you can have

1788
01:34:33,620 --> 01:34:36,220
personality changes.
And there's been some reviews of

1789
01:34:36,220 --> 01:34:39,900
individual cases where they're
not just personality changes,

1790
01:34:39,900 --> 01:34:43,020
the personality changes that
look an awful lot like the donor

1791
01:34:43,420 --> 01:34:45,940
and and so I think I don't know
if this is real.

1792
01:34:45,940 --> 01:34:49,020
The ends on this stuff is quite
small still I think and it's

1793
01:34:49,020 --> 01:34:51,300
mostly anecdotal.
So just could all be not, you

1794
01:34:51,300 --> 01:34:54,500
know, nonsense but but, but
based on the plenary work, I

1795
01:34:54,500 --> 01:34:59,660
don't think it's impossible.
And I think, yeah, the the, the

1796
01:34:59,660 --> 01:35:02,420
question of what happens to.
I mean, there's another version

1797
01:35:02,420 --> 01:35:05,900
of your question which is when
we figure out brain brain

1798
01:35:06,100 --> 01:35:10,300
regeneration and repair.
If you've got a 60 or 70 year

1799
01:35:10,300 --> 01:35:14,260
old patient with, you know,
decades of specific memories and

1800
01:35:14,260 --> 01:35:17,540
then you see their brain with
new stem cells or something or

1801
01:35:17,540 --> 01:35:20,660
you trigger regeneration of new
neurons, what happens to their

1802
01:35:20,660 --> 01:35:22,700
personality, you know, what
happens to their memories?

1803
01:35:22,900 --> 01:35:25,500
I suspect it'll be fine.
Based on Plenaria, I actually

1804
01:35:25,500 --> 01:35:27,540
think it'll be fine, but we
don't know.

1805
01:35:27,540 --> 01:35:29,940
We don't know how that plays out
in mammals yet.

1806
01:35:31,780 --> 01:35:36,860
Here about teleonomy and
teleology because I know you

1807
01:35:36,860 --> 01:35:40,020
talk about that Tele and I'd
love for you to explore that cuz

1808
01:35:40,020 --> 01:35:42,860
I think it's pretty cool when
you cuz a lot of scientists try

1809
01:35:42,860 --> 01:35:45,980
and avoid this topic with a
passion and the fact that you're

1810
01:35:45,980 --> 01:35:48,500
able to communicate this.
Cuz I'm often fascinated by this

1811
01:35:48,500 --> 01:35:52,160
thought process.
Well yeah, so so I call it

1812
01:35:52,160 --> 01:35:56,800
teliophobia and a lot of a lot
of scientists really would like

1813
01:35:56,800 --> 01:36:02,600
to get away from it.
It that made sense prior to

1814
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:07,120
let's say the 1940s because
prior to that the only things

1815
01:36:07,120 --> 01:36:13,800
with goals were humans and some
some animals and before that it

1816
01:36:13,800 --> 01:36:16,480
was only you know it's thought
to be just humans and angels and

1817
01:36:16,480 --> 01:36:20,950
and nothing else.
So okay you as a as a scientist

1818
01:36:20,950 --> 01:36:24,870
that if you weren't working on
humans and and maybe some great

1819
01:36:24,870 --> 01:36:29,030
apes, you you really wanted to
avoid any talk of goals because

1820
01:36:29,030 --> 01:36:31,670
it, you know, you felt that it
was taking you backwards into

1821
01:36:31,670 --> 01:36:34,830
some sort of pre scientific, you
know, kind of religious

1822
01:36:34,830 --> 01:36:38,550
worldview.
But since the 40s and thereon

1823
01:36:38,550 --> 01:36:42,350
we've had a mature science of
machines with goals.

1824
01:36:42,350 --> 01:36:44,590
It's called cybernetics.
We have control theory.

1825
01:36:45,030 --> 01:36:46,790
It's not scary anymore.
It's OK now.

1826
01:36:46,990 --> 01:36:49,310
It doesn't have to be magic.
It doesn't have to be angels.

1827
01:36:49,470 --> 01:36:51,990
It doesn't, you know, it doesn't
have to be, you know, the the,

1828
01:36:52,030 --> 01:36:54,030
the spirit.
It's OK.

1829
01:36:54,030 --> 01:36:56,870
We have machines with goals now
your thermostat has goals little

1830
01:36:56,870 --> 01:37:00,420
tiny ones like very modest
little tiny goals and and it's

1831
01:37:00,420 --> 01:37:04,620
okay and and we now have a a
principled quantitative way of

1832
01:37:04,620 --> 01:37:07,380
dealing with all kinds of
unusual things with goals.

1833
01:37:07,740 --> 01:37:13,660
So I I think teleology is
completely fine now I sometimes

1834
01:37:13,700 --> 01:37:17,860
use the word teleonomy and the
difference is so so so teleology

1835
01:37:17,860 --> 01:37:19,180
is supposed to be goal
directedness.

1836
01:37:19,180 --> 01:37:21,820
Teleonomy is supposed to be
apparent goal directedness.

1837
01:37:22,260 --> 01:37:26,780
In I, I recently wrote a chapter
for a book on teleology, and the

1838
01:37:26,780 --> 01:37:32,160
editors of of the book
complained about the use of

1839
01:37:32,160 --> 01:37:36,640
teleonomy because many people
use that as a as a way to back

1840
01:37:36,640 --> 01:37:39,280
out of the claim, right.
So they say it's not really

1841
01:37:39,280 --> 01:37:41,720
teleology, just looks like
teleology, so we're going to

1842
01:37:41,720 --> 01:37:44,640
call it teleonomy.
Teleonomy are is are things that

1843
01:37:44,640 --> 01:37:46,840
look like their goal directed,
but they're not really.

1844
01:37:47,760 --> 01:37:49,280
And that's and that's not my
point at all.

1845
01:37:49,280 --> 01:37:51,120
My point isn't to soften it in
the slightest.

1846
01:37:51,120 --> 01:37:55,400
I'm a hardline teleologist.
But what I think is cool about

1847
01:37:55,400 --> 01:38:00,080
teleonomy is that it reminds us
that everything, including

1848
01:38:00,400 --> 01:38:04,160
teleology, is a lens from the
perspective of some observer.

1849
01:38:04,400 --> 01:38:06,680
That's what I think the word
apparent should be doing.

1850
01:38:06,680 --> 01:38:09,280
And I I don't know that that's
what actually don't remember who

1851
01:38:09,280 --> 01:38:12,920
coined teleonomy but but I don't
think that's what they had in

1852
01:38:12,920 --> 01:38:14,200
mind.
But but I think that's what it

1853
01:38:14,200 --> 01:38:15,040
should be.
I think.

1854
01:38:15,120 --> 01:38:19,120
I think what's cool about it is
that it reminds us that when you

1855
01:38:19,120 --> 01:38:23,080
see a system and you say, oh,
that system is or isn't pursuing

1856
01:38:23,080 --> 01:38:26,590
a specific goal, you are an
observer who's making a

1857
01:38:26,590 --> 01:38:28,750
hypothesis.
Some other observer may make

1858
01:38:28,750 --> 01:38:33,190
some other hypothesis and in
some amount of time you will

1859
01:38:33,190 --> 01:38:35,510
find out who is right and who is
wrong based on who had the

1860
01:38:35,510 --> 01:38:37,230
better science and technology
come out of it.

1861
01:38:37,590 --> 01:38:40,590
And and it's an empirical
question but but but it's not a

1862
01:38:40,590 --> 01:38:44,150
it's not an objective thing
where you can say right away

1863
01:38:44,150 --> 01:38:46,590
this does or doesn't have
teleology.

1864
01:38:46,750 --> 01:38:49,190
You're an observer and you're
making that claim from a

1865
01:38:49,190 --> 01:38:51,270
particular perspective.
So.

1866
01:38:51,270 --> 01:38:54,350
So I like that about T Leon me,
but but my point isn't to try to

1867
01:38:54,350 --> 01:38:57,030
soften it at all or try to
pretend it's you know some sort

1868
01:38:57,030 --> 01:38:59,870
of as if you know thing.
I think I think it's real.

1869
01:38:59,870 --> 01:39:01,950
I think it's absolutely weird.
At some point when when I read

1870
01:39:01,950 --> 01:39:06,950
that, I wrote a note saying what
would be the tedious you think

1871
01:39:07,190 --> 01:39:09,830
is possible?
Aside from the goal directed

1872
01:39:09,830 --> 01:39:13,150
nature of how we behave right
now, do you perceive a future

1873
01:39:13,150 --> 01:39:16,670
where perhaps the goal directed
is taking us somewhere?

1874
01:39:16,670 --> 01:39:19,190
Because I often think about
perhaps maybe the.

1875
01:39:19,250 --> 01:39:22,370
Artificial intelligence is the
way forward in terms of how we

1876
01:39:22,370 --> 01:39:24,410
design intelligence moving
forward.

1877
01:39:24,770 --> 01:39:28,010
Do you think that that's a big
factor for our teleological

1878
01:39:28,250 --> 01:39:32,810
progression is the future?
I'm not sure if I understood

1879
01:39:32,810 --> 01:39:35,330
that correctly, but what I what
I hear you asking is if there's

1880
01:39:35,330 --> 01:39:39,770
some sort of goal directedness
in the large scale patterns of

1881
01:39:39,770 --> 01:39:41,850
evolution, History, Society or
whatever.

1882
01:39:41,930 --> 01:39:44,530
Is that roughly?
So, so basically, what do you

1883
01:39:44,530 --> 01:39:46,090
think is the end goal of this
universe?

1884
01:39:46,090 --> 01:39:50,280
Is there?
Are we headed some way Yeah that

1885
01:39:50,280 --> 01:39:55,200
that's that's that's a that's a
really deep question I I I don't

1886
01:39:55,200 --> 01:39:57,960
know I think that it's an
empirical question meaning that

1887
01:39:57,960 --> 01:40:02,280
I think we should make some
hypothesis and pursue some

1888
01:40:02,280 --> 01:40:06,520
implications of those hypotheses
and and test those and see which

1889
01:40:06,520 --> 01:40:11,680
ones improve our our ability to
to act in the world and maybe

1890
01:40:11,680 --> 01:40:15,000
we'll you know we can we can
talk about.

1891
01:40:15,960 --> 01:40:17,880
Let's let's just talk about
evolution per se.

1892
01:40:18,160 --> 01:40:23,000
So I do think I, I, I, Chris
Fields and I wrote a paper once

1893
01:40:23,000 --> 01:40:28,200
about the the, the evolution,
the the, the target morphology

1894
01:40:28,200 --> 01:40:32,560
of evolution, the idea that the
evolutionary process can have

1895
01:40:33,040 --> 01:40:35,800
goals in the sense of a
dynamical system having

1896
01:40:35,800 --> 01:40:37,800
attractors to which it tends to
fall into.

1897
01:40:37,800 --> 01:40:42,240
And this is you know this is
again we're not the first person

1898
01:40:42,360 --> 01:40:47,480
people to say that but but
that's not to say it has some

1899
01:40:47,480 --> 01:40:50,440
some long range plan in the way
in the in the way that humans

1900
01:40:50,440 --> 01:40:53,560
have plans that's just to say
that there are certain patterns

1901
01:40:53,560 --> 01:40:58,760
that are likely to reinforce
themselves There's the deeper

1902
01:40:58,760 --> 01:41:01,280
sense in which and and Richard
Watson and I and I still I still

1903
01:41:01,280 --> 01:41:03,640
need to ask him this I have it
on my list to discuss this with

1904
01:41:03,640 --> 01:41:08,600
him at some point but you know I
I've made the claim that I think

1905
01:41:08,600 --> 01:41:14,730
that biological evolution by
itself doesn't optimize for any

1906
01:41:14,730 --> 01:41:18,290
of the things we care about you
know happiness intelligence

1907
01:41:19,090 --> 01:41:21,650
meaning you know ethical
whatever.

1908
01:41:22,010 --> 01:41:22,770
I don't.
I don't.

1909
01:41:23,090 --> 01:41:25,610
The reason the reason I
emphasize that is because people

1910
01:41:25,610 --> 01:41:30,250
will often say, you know your
work is scary because it it

1911
01:41:30,250 --> 01:41:33,290
might lead to changes in the
human structure, human life,

1912
01:41:33,290 --> 01:41:36,010
where and I try to point out to
people that there's something

1913
01:41:36,090 --> 01:41:39,350
magically great about where we
are now.

1914
01:41:39,350 --> 01:41:40,950
Evolution just sort of dumped us
in this.

1915
01:41:41,150 --> 01:41:43,430
You know, it's in.
And I and I try to I try to

1916
01:41:43,430 --> 01:41:46,110
emphasize that it's sort of like
this random meandering search.

1917
01:41:46,390 --> 01:41:49,270
It settles on things that are
just good enough to survive.

1918
01:41:49,710 --> 01:41:53,590
And our short lifespan, our
susceptibility to weird

1919
01:41:53,590 --> 01:41:57,110
diseases, our propensity to to,
to, you know, have all these

1920
01:41:57,150 --> 01:42:00,670
ridiculous accidents befall us.
And you know, these all these

1921
01:42:00,670 --> 01:42:03,230
medical, these crazy medical
conditions that people, you

1922
01:42:03,230 --> 01:42:04,350
know, e-mail me with all the
time.

1923
01:42:05,270 --> 01:42:07,950
None of that is optimal.
Nobody sat there and optimized

1924
01:42:07,950 --> 01:42:09,710
it and said, okay, this is
great.

1925
01:42:09,710 --> 01:42:11,670
This is how it should be.
Now you scientists don't screw

1926
01:42:11,670 --> 01:42:13,240
it up.
Yeah, I think that's completely

1927
01:42:13,240 --> 01:42:15,120
the wrong way.
I think to think about this, I

1928
01:42:15,120 --> 01:42:19,000
think evolution randomly sort of
left us in this position and now

1929
01:42:19,000 --> 01:42:21,600
we're the adults in the room and
we need to improve everybody's

1930
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:23,960
sort of experience.
So.

1931
01:42:23,960 --> 01:42:28,240
So Richard Watson disagrees.
He thinks that evolution isn't

1932
01:42:29,040 --> 01:42:32,640
as random as I think and that it
does in fact.

1933
01:42:33,760 --> 01:42:35,080
Well, I don't know.
I don't want to speak from.

1934
01:42:35,080 --> 01:42:37,080
So I'm not sure this is, this is
a discussion we need to have

1935
01:42:37,080 --> 01:42:41,630
because I think what I see
evolution maximizing is biomass.

1936
01:42:41,670 --> 01:42:45,470
That's it like whatever survives
as many units as we can have.

1937
01:42:45,790 --> 01:42:50,510
Anything that will, will
eventually will sort of try to

1938
01:42:51,670 --> 01:42:54,390
increase the frequency that it
will with which it gets observed

1939
01:42:54,390 --> 01:42:58,590
in the future.
So to and and and to me, if you

1940
01:42:58,590 --> 01:43:01,390
if you start with a with a blank
planet, you know sort of against

1941
01:43:01,470 --> 01:43:04,270
sort of Star Trek scenario where
you start with a blank planet

1942
01:43:04,270 --> 01:43:07,190
but it's pretty you know, pretty
hospitable to life and you drop

1943
01:43:07,190 --> 01:43:10,390
off a single seed of some
reproduce self reproducing thing

1944
01:43:10,630 --> 01:43:14,870
and you come back, you know 100
million years later, can you say

1945
01:43:14,870 --> 01:43:18,430
what you're going to find?
I'm not aware of anything that

1946
01:43:18,430 --> 01:43:21,270
you can say you're going to find
other than the biomass will be

1947
01:43:21,270 --> 01:43:23,330
huge.
This thing is going to

1948
01:43:23,530 --> 01:43:26,290
proliferate.
It's going to find adaptive ways

1949
01:43:26,290 --> 01:43:29,530
to increase its representation
in the environment, and you're

1950
01:43:29,530 --> 01:43:32,730
just gonna find a lot of
complicated living stuff around.

1951
01:43:32,730 --> 01:43:34,130
That's it.
I don't know what else you can

1952
01:43:34,130 --> 01:43:37,370
conclude other than that.
Yeah, I think Richard disagrees.

1953
01:43:37,370 --> 01:43:43,250
And I'd love to know if what the
arrow is for evolution.

1954
01:43:43,770 --> 01:43:46,690
From that perspective, do you
think then that technically

1955
01:43:46,690 --> 01:43:49,410
certain microbes like bacteria
are winning this evolutionary

1956
01:43:49,410 --> 01:43:54,040
game?
I I I think you.

1957
01:43:54,040 --> 01:43:56,760
I think we get to define the
game right so.

1958
01:43:56,880 --> 01:44:03,560
So if the game is number of
units per, you know, cubic foot

1959
01:44:03,560 --> 01:44:05,080
or whatever, they're definitely
winning.

1960
01:44:05,440 --> 01:44:08,280
But I don't.
But but that's not the game we

1961
01:44:08,280 --> 01:44:10,840
should be playing.
I I don't think you know.

1962
01:44:10,840 --> 01:44:14,240
So you get to define your own
game and then I mean that that's

1963
01:44:14,240 --> 01:44:17,200
the beautiful part about life.
Is that it?

1964
01:44:17,280 --> 01:44:20,250
It tends to pick its own
objective function and if and if

1965
01:44:20,250 --> 01:44:23,930
it's hard to win as a as a
snake, then then you might

1966
01:44:24,210 --> 01:44:27,050
become a bird and you might
become something else.

1967
01:44:27,370 --> 01:44:30,730
There are many ways to sort of,
you know, and if you're a human,

1968
01:44:31,090 --> 01:44:35,410
do you really care about the
total number of copies of you or

1969
01:44:35,410 --> 01:44:37,050
of your DNA of anything else?
I don't.

1970
01:44:37,090 --> 01:44:38,770
That doesn't seem very exciting
to me.

1971
01:44:38,770 --> 01:44:40,490
I I think we should be playing a
different game.

1972
01:44:40,490 --> 01:44:43,610
But yeah, it depends how you see
the game.

1973
01:44:44,280 --> 01:44:47,880
These three questions are pretty
random, but it's not necessarily

1974
01:44:47,880 --> 01:44:50,880
a psychological dissection.
But it's more from your

1975
01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:56,280
perspective as a scientist and
from biology, Who is Mike?

1976
01:44:56,280 --> 01:44:59,240
What is Mike?
And why is Mike?

1977
01:45:00,800 --> 01:45:02,360
Oh my God.
Wow.

1978
01:45:03,800 --> 01:45:07,880
Well, yeah.
Who I don't even like.

1979
01:45:07,880 --> 01:45:11,120
I don't know what a useful
answer to that question would

1980
01:45:11,120 --> 01:45:15,350
even look like, so I don't know
I do.

1981
01:45:16,150 --> 01:45:18,230
We can skip that.
Go to the What is Mike.

1982
01:45:18,910 --> 01:45:22,110
Yeah, I don't think of myself
very much at all.

1983
01:45:22,110 --> 01:45:29,010
I sort of I mostly it started
when I used to be when when I

1984
01:45:29,010 --> 01:45:32,530
was a kid I was I was very sort
of shy and and I never you know

1985
01:45:32,530 --> 01:45:34,690
I was the kid that never spoke
up in high school at all and

1986
01:45:34,690 --> 01:45:38,490
which is kind of invisible on
you know by design and and then

1987
01:45:38,490 --> 01:45:41,410
eventually I realized that as as
the the whole science thing kept

1988
01:45:41,410 --> 01:45:43,370
going Italy.
Like it was like you have to

1989
01:45:43,370 --> 01:45:46,450
give talks and whatever and it
was very it was very painful.

1990
01:45:46,450 --> 01:45:48,650
I never wanted to get up in
front of people and whatever was

1991
01:45:48,650 --> 01:45:52,260
hard.
And then I finally realized that

1992
01:45:52,300 --> 01:45:54,780
and this is this is kind of a
simple visualization that I give

1993
01:45:54,780 --> 01:45:57,180
some of my students that that
have a hard time talking to

1994
01:45:57,180 --> 01:45:59,980
people.
Is that you.

1995
01:45:59,980 --> 01:46:03,180
What you do is you you you you
visualize yourself as glass

1996
01:46:03,420 --> 01:46:04,860
You're not there nobody's there
to look at you.

1997
01:46:04,860 --> 01:46:06,980
Nobody's interested in you What
what they're interested in is

1998
01:46:06,980 --> 01:46:10,140
whatever product you're bringing
them and what it can do for

1999
01:46:10,140 --> 01:46:11,220
them.
They're all fighting their own

2000
01:46:11,220 --> 01:46:12,860
battle.
Everybody in the audience has

2001
01:46:13,140 --> 01:46:17,570
their own needs and goals and
whatever and and no one actually

2002
01:46:17,570 --> 01:46:19,970
cares about you enough to
criticize you.

2003
01:46:20,050 --> 01:46:21,850
You know they they just they
just want to see what you

2004
01:46:21,850 --> 01:46:24,370
brought them and your job is to
be a pane of glass you're

2005
01:46:24,370 --> 01:46:27,490
completely invisible and to show
and to give them the best

2006
01:46:27,490 --> 01:46:29,770
product that you can give them.
It's a new idea it's something

2007
01:46:29,770 --> 01:46:30,930
something for the you know
whatever.

2008
01:46:31,330 --> 01:46:34,490
And so that's that tends to be
how I think about things.

2009
01:46:35,410 --> 01:46:40,970
I spend zero time thinking about
what I am or who I am I or or or

2010
01:46:40,970 --> 01:46:44,650
what's going on with me.
I I mostly just think about

2011
01:46:45,350 --> 01:46:48,430
what's next.
And this might be this might be

2012
01:46:48,430 --> 01:46:53,270
why I like this idea of the
agent as action first is that I

2013
01:46:53,270 --> 01:46:56,870
mostly just focus on what's the
most interesting, helpful,

2014
01:46:56,870 --> 01:46:58,910
exciting thing we can do next
and how do we do it.

2015
01:46:59,830 --> 01:47:01,790
So I have no idea.
I don't know.

2016
01:47:02,070 --> 01:47:04,270
I don't know how to answer.
I don't know how to answer that.

2017
01:47:04,910 --> 01:47:08,950
What the what and why but was
more in line with in terms of

2018
01:47:08,990 --> 01:47:13,030
asking you like what is a human
in a sense so So what is like

2019
01:47:13,030 --> 01:47:16,010
from a biological or.
Mechanical perspective I would

2020
01:47:16,010 --> 01:47:18,890
say.
Well, yeah, I mean, I think, I

2021
01:47:18,890 --> 01:47:27,450
think any, any, any human is an
agent with a minimum.

2022
01:47:27,770 --> 01:47:33,690
Any modern human is an agent
with a particular size,

2023
01:47:35,090 --> 01:47:37,890
cognitive light cone with us
with a certain capacity for

2024
01:47:38,410 --> 01:47:42,450
intelligence and compassion and
you know how they're deploying

2025
01:47:42,450 --> 01:47:44,490
that.
There's a very wide variety

2026
01:47:44,490 --> 01:47:46,570
obviously across the, you know
across the world.

2027
01:47:46,890 --> 01:47:50,410
But yeah, that's it, That's it.
It's it's about, it's about this

2028
01:47:50,410 --> 01:47:55,690
the scope of your goals and and
and the the the intelligence

2029
01:47:55,690 --> 01:47:58,490
that you have to bring to bear
on getting those goals met and

2030
01:47:58,490 --> 01:48:00,650
and which ones are you pursuing
at any given time?

2031
01:48:01,610 --> 01:48:03,530
Yeah.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I

2032
01:48:03,850 --> 01:48:05,330
when you spoke about tedious
earlier.

2033
01:48:05,330 --> 01:48:08,090
Just quickly, I'm not sure if
you mentioned did did.

2034
01:48:08,130 --> 01:48:09,570
Do you feel that at some point
there's a?

2035
01:48:10,060 --> 01:48:12,140
Cumulative teleological purpose
here?

2036
01:48:12,140 --> 01:48:15,340
Or or do you feel like each goal
directed activity is happening

2037
01:48:15,340 --> 01:48:19,460
independent of each other but at
some point coalesce in various

2038
01:48:19,460 --> 01:48:24,220
different ways?
You know, I I think that there

2039
01:48:24,220 --> 01:48:31,380
is a way that goal directed
units combined and and scale up.

2040
01:48:31,660 --> 01:48:39,800
But overall, overall, I do think
that it is entirely possible to

2041
01:48:39,800 --> 01:48:42,960
have systems.
In fact, this is how biology

2042
01:48:42,960 --> 01:48:44,560
works.
You have systems that have

2043
01:48:44,560 --> 01:48:47,720
subsystems, and each of those
subsystems have their own goals

2044
01:48:47,720 --> 01:48:50,200
and their own agendas, and they
solve problems in their own

2045
01:48:50,200 --> 01:48:51,960
space.
And all of that is coupled.

2046
01:48:52,240 --> 01:48:57,200
So I sometimes give a talk
called Why Robots Don't get

2047
01:48:57,200 --> 01:49:01,970
Cancer and it's because we tend
to engineer, at least for now

2048
01:49:01,970 --> 01:49:04,250
with part when an architecture
that's flat.

2049
01:49:04,530 --> 01:49:08,050
So your your your your robot or
your self driving vehicle may

2050
01:49:08,130 --> 01:49:10,810
have some intelligence and some
goals and whatnot, but all the

2051
01:49:10,810 --> 01:49:13,650
transistors and everything else
that make it up are are flat.

2052
01:49:13,650 --> 01:49:15,330
They don't they don't have an
agenda of their own.

2053
01:49:15,530 --> 01:49:19,490
But in biology that's not true.
So, so we are made of parts that

2054
01:49:19,490 --> 01:49:22,890
are solving problems and having
preferences and and memories and

2055
01:49:22,890 --> 01:49:26,370
so on in physiological space,
transcriptional space,

2056
01:49:27,720 --> 01:49:30,680
anatomical space and so on.
So there are goals within goals

2057
01:49:30,680 --> 01:49:33,400
with the goals and some of them
compete and some of them

2058
01:49:33,400 --> 01:49:37,120
cooperate and we know from from
basic psychology and therapy and

2059
01:49:37,120 --> 01:49:40,280
so on that that humans can have
multiple modules with different

2060
01:49:40,280 --> 01:49:43,800
goals that absolutely do not get
along with each other and try to

2061
01:49:43,800 --> 01:49:47,120
sabotage each other and whatnot.
So yeah, it's a it's a complex

2062
01:49:47,120 --> 01:49:49,440
society.
We we are, we are a complex,

2063
01:49:50,320 --> 01:49:53,960
nested, hierarchical,
multiscale, nested Society of

2064
01:49:53,960 --> 01:49:59,370
goal directed agents.
One of your infamous lines is,

2065
01:49:59,370 --> 01:50:03,850
at this point, all intelligence
is collective intelligence, and

2066
01:50:03,850 --> 01:50:06,330
I think that's a beautiful
concept as we close off.

2067
01:50:06,330 --> 01:50:07,850
Do you wanna touch on that
briefly?

2068
01:50:09,170 --> 01:50:12,090
Yeah.
It doesn't seem controversial to

2069
01:50:12,090 --> 01:50:15,730
me.
I've never seen and I don't

2070
01:50:15,730 --> 01:50:18,370
think you could have any kind of
intelligence.

2071
01:50:18,370 --> 01:50:24,700
That was some sort of diamond,
you know, indivisible single

2072
01:50:24,700 --> 01:50:27,020
thing.
Because because if you were, you

2073
01:50:27,020 --> 01:50:30,580
couldn't learn, you couldn't
change if you didn't have part.

2074
01:50:30,660 --> 01:50:33,220
You need parts in order to be
able to change right to to to

2075
01:50:33,220 --> 01:50:35,740
learn from experience.
You need parts that are going to

2076
01:50:35,740 --> 01:50:37,380
be doing something different
than what they were doing

2077
01:50:37,380 --> 01:50:40,620
before.
I just can't imagine, you know,

2078
01:50:40,620 --> 01:50:45,060
and and and and people say, you
know, the human brain is, well,

2079
01:50:45,500 --> 01:50:48,100
it's a bag of neurons, right?
I mean yes there's a brain and

2080
01:50:48,100 --> 01:50:51,060
there's a person there, but but
it's also a bag of neurons and

2081
01:50:51,340 --> 01:50:54,460
and and you know I have I have
the slide that I show sometimes

2082
01:50:54,460 --> 01:50:58,380
that like like Rene Descartes
and I like the cart more than a

2083
01:50:58,380 --> 01:50:59,700
lot of people do nowadays.
But.

2084
01:50:59,700 --> 01:51:04,460
But, but he had this.
He really liked the pineal gland

2085
01:51:04,620 --> 01:51:06,660
and he liked the pineal gland
because it was only one of them

2086
01:51:06,780 --> 01:51:08,580
in the brain and he felt that
human.

2087
01:51:08,580 --> 01:51:12,560
You know, we we have a singular
integrated consciousness and

2088
01:51:12,560 --> 01:51:18,520
therefore it doesn't do to, you
know, to if you have multiple

2089
01:51:18,520 --> 01:51:20,240
copies of it in the brain, let's
say the left and right

2090
01:51:20,240 --> 01:51:21,840
hemisphere, like how's that
going to work?

2091
01:51:21,840 --> 01:51:23,840
You have a singular
consciousness is out of the

2092
01:51:23,840 --> 01:51:25,120
pineal gland.
There's only one of those.

2093
01:51:25,120 --> 01:51:26,960
That's where consciousness
centers the body.

2094
01:51:27,640 --> 01:51:30,360
And The thing is if he had had
good microscopy, he would have

2095
01:51:30,360 --> 01:51:32,560
looked in that pineal gland and
he said, Oh my God, this thing

2096
01:51:32,560 --> 01:51:35,080
has, you know, millions of cells
in it.

2097
01:51:35,400 --> 01:51:38,120
And if you looked at inside one
of those cells, you said, wow.

2098
01:51:38,120 --> 01:51:41,920
And this thing has a huge amount
of molecular networks and and

2099
01:51:41,920 --> 01:51:44,480
and whatever.
There is no single anything

2100
01:51:44,480 --> 01:51:46,480
anywhere.
It's all, it's all made of parts

2101
01:51:46,640 --> 01:51:48,840
until you get down to why, I
don't know some sort of

2102
01:51:48,840 --> 01:51:52,760
particles or something.
And and so yeah, all, all, all

2103
01:51:52,760 --> 01:51:55,880
intelligent agents are made of
parts and it's always got to be

2104
01:51:55,880 --> 01:52:00,920
a story about how those parts
integrate into a a coherent

2105
01:52:00,920 --> 01:52:03,080
agent.
That's, that's that's our goal

2106
01:52:03,080 --> 01:52:05,000
here is to tell a story of
scaling up.

2107
01:52:05,500 --> 01:52:07,980
Where as we continue to scale up
and you look at artificial

2108
01:52:07,980 --> 01:52:11,380
intelligence continuously
growing, is there any way you'd

2109
01:52:11,380 --> 01:52:16,260
like us to perceive this problem
moving forward and just trying

2110
01:52:16,260 --> 01:52:17,900
to work together with artificial
intelligence?

2111
01:52:17,900 --> 01:52:19,140
Because it's obviously getting
better.

2112
01:52:19,220 --> 01:52:20,420
It's a different type of
intelligence.

2113
01:52:20,420 --> 01:52:25,100
But yeah, closing remarks on
moving future intelligence.

2114
01:52:26,400 --> 01:52:30,600
I mean I guess I guess the the
big the big thing I can I can

2115
01:52:30,600 --> 01:52:34,040
say is just that the most
general thing and then I'm I'm

2116
01:52:34,040 --> 01:52:37,920
going to write something about
this soon is that I I think most

2117
01:52:37,920 --> 01:52:45,160
of our concerns about Modern A I
are just rewarmed over sort of

2118
01:52:45,880 --> 01:52:50,150
restatements of problems that
have been with us all along and

2119
01:52:50,190 --> 01:52:53,830
that it's just people just you
the average person is just now

2120
01:52:53,830 --> 01:52:56,870
realizing that that these are
issues but philosophers have

2121
01:52:56,870 --> 01:53:02,750
known and even some you know so
so so this idea that in the that

2122
01:53:02,750 --> 01:53:05,110
that that we're going to give
rise to something that makes us

2123
01:53:05,110 --> 01:53:08,670
irrelevant in the future like I
mean that's that's called having

2124
01:53:08,670 --> 01:53:11,030
kids, right.
When you have kids, you produce

2125
01:53:11,030 --> 01:53:13,470
something that you work.
At least some of us work our

2126
01:53:13,470 --> 01:53:16,130
butts off to make sure that
they're better than we are and

2127
01:53:16,250 --> 01:53:18,210
you don't know.
And in fact, one of the kind of

2128
01:53:18,210 --> 01:53:21,570
like standard existential fears
is that yeah, they in their

2129
01:53:21,570 --> 01:53:23,010
world, we are going to be
irrelevant.

2130
01:53:23,010 --> 01:53:25,770
All the things that we worried
about it's like hey old man you

2131
01:53:26,010 --> 01:53:28,650
know stuff you're talking about
is nonsense where we care about

2132
01:53:28,650 --> 01:53:32,330
other stuff now and so right
this is this is I mean ever

2133
01:53:32,330 --> 01:53:34,570
since who was it Aristotle or
somebody who you know would

2134
01:53:34,970 --> 01:53:37,930
would write that the youth of
today you know they don't you're

2135
01:53:37,930 --> 01:53:40,810
right and that was you know back
in the classical Greek day so so

2136
01:53:40,810 --> 01:53:42,770
we of course we're going to give
rise to something that thinks

2137
01:53:42,770 --> 01:53:45,010
we're we're a bunch of dummies
and and and it's going to do

2138
01:53:45,010 --> 01:53:51,050
something different and and I
think all of that is is just

2139
01:53:51,050 --> 01:53:54,810
about all of the concerns we
have about a I are are basically

2140
01:53:54,810 --> 01:53:58,880
just echoing issues that have
always been with us And you know

2141
01:53:58,880 --> 01:54:02,440
and I don't know what the answer
is except all I can say is from

2142
01:54:02,440 --> 01:54:06,480
a personal perspective I I'm I'm
not super tied to the idea that

2143
01:54:06,480 --> 01:54:09,440
the earth has to have a bunch of
human DNA running around it.

2144
01:54:09,640 --> 01:54:13,880
I'm not tied to the fact that we
have to be these you know

2145
01:54:14,080 --> 01:54:16,280
organisms that that are
susceptible to a million

2146
01:54:16,280 --> 01:54:19,440
different diseases and die when
we you know in in in a few

2147
01:54:19,440 --> 01:54:22,360
decades if we can make ourselves
better great.

2148
01:54:22,440 --> 01:54:25,600
And and let's, let's spread,
let's let's enlarge our

2149
01:54:25,600 --> 01:54:28,480
cognitive light cones are are.
Let's enlarge our capacity for

2150
01:54:29,320 --> 01:54:32,600
and whatever embodiments people
want.

2151
01:54:32,600 --> 01:54:35,240
That's what they should have.
Well, Mark, I mean, it's always

2152
01:54:35,240 --> 01:54:37,480
such a pleasure to chat to you.
Thank you so much.

2153
01:54:38,080 --> 01:54:39,320
Good to see you.
Thank you so much.

2154
01:54:40,240 --> 01:54:42,600
It's wonderful and when I chat
to Mark next thing, I'll

2155
01:54:42,600 --> 01:54:44,920
definitely bring up some of
these aspects of the

2156
01:54:44,920 --> 01:54:47,720
conversation into it.
Is there anything else, Mark, as

2157
01:54:47,720 --> 01:54:52,690
we go?
Yeah, ask him.

2158
01:54:52,690 --> 01:54:57,850
Ask him, you know, do to him
what people do to me and e-mail.

2159
01:54:57,850 --> 01:54:59,370
Ask him.
Ask him for the meaning of life.

2160
01:54:59,610 --> 01:55:02,410
See what he says.
He might actually have a decent

2161
01:55:02,410 --> 01:55:03,810
answer.
He's a psychoanalyst.

2162
01:55:03,890 --> 01:55:05,330
He might actually have an
answer.

2163
01:55:05,330 --> 01:55:06,850
I don't have an answer, but he
might.

2164
01:55:07,450 --> 01:55:08,610
So I'll definitely bring that
up.

2165
01:55:08,610 --> 01:55:10,610
Thanks.
But anything any final words

2166
01:55:10,610 --> 01:55:14,270
Mike anything you wanna leave
like you've said it all no the

2167
01:55:14,270 --> 01:55:18,270
only thing the only thing to say
is that I will soon they're

2168
01:55:18,270 --> 01:55:20,870
spinning up a WordPress site for
me that's going to have a bunch

2169
01:55:20,870 --> 01:55:25,150
of stuff that doesn't go in my
official academic site so you

2170
01:55:25,150 --> 01:55:28,270
know essays and and other stuff
so so keep an eye I'll I'll I'll

2171
01:55:28,270 --> 01:55:30,750
advertise it on Twitter and then
there will be a sign up for you

2172
01:55:30,790 --> 01:55:33,630
know registration thing for
people to get notifications and

2173
01:55:33,630 --> 01:55:34,380
so on.
Right.

2174
01:55:34,380 --> 01:55:36,180
Is there working a link at the
moment?

2175
01:55:36,260 --> 01:55:39,140
A URL or there isn't?
It's a few days.

2176
01:55:39,140 --> 01:55:41,980
They tell me it's a few days
away so I can send it to you and

2177
01:55:41,980 --> 01:55:43,380
then.
Yeah, I'll definitely put a link

2178
01:55:43,380 --> 01:55:45,660
to that for this episode.
Thanks so much, Mike.

2179
01:55:45,660 --> 01:55:48,660
Once again, it's a pleasure.
Great to see you take it easy.