Matthew Segall: Is the Universe Ensouled with Experience? Consciousness, Cosmology, and Meaning

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Well, what is the scientific
method?

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We observe stuff with our senses
or extensions with technological

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instrumentation, and then we
measure as precisely as we can

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what we're observing.
And then we can translate that

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into mathematics and build
models to make predictions.

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And the better the predictions,
the more confident we are that

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the model is reflecting
something real out there in

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nature.
That's all fine and good, and

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the scientific method is very
powerful.

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But the deeper question is not
just a sort of epistemological

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or methodological question.
It's a question of the

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cosmological conditions that
make conscious agents capable of

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science possible.
Matt, I've focused this podcast

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around your paper, Physics
Within the Bounds of Feeling

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Alone, and wonderful paper.
Beautiful read, really enjoyed

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it.
I really like the way you're

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able to tell such a deep
philosophical story and and one

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of the questions I often ask
guests on the show is to do

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that.
It's to start off by giving me a

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brief philosophical history of
the mind body problem.

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It's a tough question because it
all comes down to their

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understanding of it all.
But from your side, if you had

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to give me a summary of your
understanding of the mind body

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problem and it's history, what
story would you tell?

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Well, we should probably go back
to the ancient Greeks, though I

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think even prior to what's often
thought of as the birth of

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Western philosophy.
And in ancient Greece, we could

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think just in terms of the more
or less animist worldview that

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many primal peoples on every
continent held.

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Which which obviously did not
separate mind and body, but saw

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what what we now call mind as
permeating the living and and

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even the what we would call the
non living world.

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Though I think for the primal
imagination there was nothing

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that was non living in some
sense for this earlier phase of

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of human beings in this earlier
stage of the evolution of

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consciousness.
It wasn't life that was

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mysterious to them.
It was death, right.

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And so one of the distinguishing
features of human beings, though

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it's it's apparent that other
species also recognize death,

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but human beings seem to build
up really elaborate cultural

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rituals around death.
It's a mystery to us if, if the

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universe seems pervaded by life,
the fact that our body should

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decay and the at least visible
tangible presence of a person

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should disappear, that that was
a problem for these primal

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peoples.
If you Fast forward, though,

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I'll come back to the ancient
Greeks in a second.

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But if you Fast forward to say,
the modern period and the rise

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of this kind of mechanistic
science out of out of Western

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Europe, all of a sudden it's not
death that's mysterious anymore.

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Death becomes the rule and life
becomes a mystery in need of

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explanation.
So something clearly shifted

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over the course of, of human
prehistorian history.

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And I think if we go back to the
ancient Greeks, before Socrates

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and Plato and Aristotle, you had
what were called the physio

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logo, these philosophers who
tried to understand nature in

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terms of some kind of elemental
principle.

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Either everything's all fire,
everything's water, or

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everything's air.
And there wasn't yet a a real

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distinct sense of that elemental
power at the base of nature

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being devoid of mind.
It was an expression of mind in

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a sense, you know, and the
ancients would have a sense of

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the, the humors of the body
corresponding to the elements of

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nature.
And so there was this deep sense

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of resonance between interior
experience, qualitative

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experience, and the the tangible
external kind of extended world.

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In Plato, in in a dialogue like
the Timaeus, you begin to see

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what we would nowadays call
dualism starting to emerge.

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Though I wouldn't say Plato is
simply a dualist.

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It's, it's more like in his
dialogues he's exploring and

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dramatizing a whole variety of
different positions, one of

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which is dualism.
So in the Timaeus, his

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cosmological and cosmagonical
dialogue, you've got the noose

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or the intellect or the demiurge
shaping the receptacle or what

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we could just call materiality
according to the model of these

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eternal forms.
And so you're starting to get

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this separation between mind and
body, right?

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Active mind that's providing the
form, and then passive

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materiality that's just
receiving that imprint.

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And then Aristotle, this gets
systematized into a kind of

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account of what he calls
hylomorphism, or what has since

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been called hylomorphism, where
you again, you have form and

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matter coming into a composite
relationship.

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You never get one without the
other really an Aristotle.

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And so again, we're not quite to
the stage of a radical dualism

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between mind and body yet.
That doesn't happen.

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I'll skip a couple thousand
years and just go to say,

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Descartes.
The sense of a dualism between

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thinking activity or
errascogitans and and extended

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matter gets codified and reified
by Rene Descartes and the rest

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of modern philosophy is a
struggle to come to terms with

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that separation.
Some go in the more materialist

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direction, others go in the more
idealist direction.

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But both those positions in the
modern period after Descartes

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are very much, yeah, following
in his wake, accepting the

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premises of his of his mind,
body dualism and just trying to

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either side with mind as more
fundamental or matter as more

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fundamental.
And so, you know, really in

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contemporary consciousness
studies and cognitive science

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and neuroscience, what what gets
called the hard problem of

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consciousness.
And some people don't accept

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that framing because they're
just more materialists and think

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there isn't a real problem
there.

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But all of these debates in our
time, I think are very much just

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rehash, rehashing the same
problems that these early modern

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philosophers from Descartes
through Spinoza and live Nets

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we're dealing with.
We haven't actually made much

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progress.
We're still very much living in

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the shadow of Descartes, I think
in terms of the contemporary

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scientific attempt to understand
the mind body problem and

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resolve it.
So taking this larger view of of

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the development of the issue, I
think is very important because

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when you do put modern
scientific understandings of

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nature and the attempt to
scientifically understand

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consciousness in the broader
sweep of history, you see how

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actually rare and abnormal is
this little stretch of history

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over the last few 100 years
compared to 10s of thousands of

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years where, you know, animism
was the basic assumption of

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every group of human beings
across the planet.

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So that's basically how I see
it.

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It's, it's, it's a beautiful
story and I think it's to me one

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of the best topics to explore.
And I think you, you share the

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same passion with it.
What I did was for your paper, I

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broke this down into 5 chapters.
Hopefully we can get through all

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of them.
If not, there's always time for

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around 2:00.
But I think let's start off with

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what I called chapter 1,
critiquing physicalism and its

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limitations.
Your paper critiques

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contemporary physicalism that
still operates within AI.

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Think what you called a
Cartesian Cantian dualism, if I

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recall correctly.
But how does this bifurcation

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limit our understanding of
reality?

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Well, it creates A framework
where in our attempt to we're,

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we're attempting to understand
nature as though we as the

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knower weren't part of it.
And that's more of an implicit

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assumption because obviously,
you know, I pick on Sean

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Carroll, the physicist in that
particular article.

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But many physicalists and
materialists, of course, would

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say, well, the human mind is
part of nature, no doubt about

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it.
It evolved like any other.

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We evolved like any other
species of of animal.

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But when it comes to scientific
explanation, there's still this

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sort of view from nowhere
assumption that we don't need to

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account for the conditions of
possibility of scientific

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knowledge itself.
Let me let me unpack what that

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means.
Obviously scientists who do a

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little bit of philosophy of
science will have some

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epistemological account of, you
know, how it is that scientific

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knowledge is possible in terms
of well, what is the scientific

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method?
We observe stuff with our senses

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or extensions via technical with
technological instrumentation,

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and then we measure as precisely
as we can what we're observing.

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And then we can translate that
into mathematics and build

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models to make predictions.
And the better the predictions,

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the more likely the the more
confident we are that the model

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is reflecting something real out
there in nature.

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That's all fine and good, and
the scientific method is very

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powerful, but the deeper
question is not just a sort of

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epistemological or
methodological question.

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It's it's a question of the
cosmological conditions that

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make conscious agents capable of
science possible, right.

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And so the way that I frame it
in that article, I'm borrowing,

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you know, some ideas from
Friedrich Schelling, who's

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thinking in the aftermath of
Kant and, you know, asking this

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question, what must, if we say
the mind emerges from nature,

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OK, but what must nature be such
that mind could emerge from it?

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And Shelling finds it
incredible, impossible to to

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believe that nature could have
been fundamentally devoid of

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anything like mind, but that
there must have been somehow

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nature must have been seeded
with mind already from the get

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go.
And the process of evolution is

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a kind of a growth of that seed
into the flower or the fruit of,

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of conscious agency.
And science then is, you know,

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it might sound kind of trite or
cute or whatever, but, you know,

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science becomes the universe's
way of knowing itself.

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Even Carl Sagan would would
phrase it that way.

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And, you know, putting science
back into and scientific

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knowledge back into nature, I
think is, is a far more radical

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proposition than if the flippant
attitude that physicalists have

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that, Oh yes, of course mind
emerges from and evolves out of

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nature.
If you really want to ground

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science in nature, that actually
requires us to view nature in a

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certain way right before we even
begin to scientifically

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investigate it.
We have to view nature as having

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been capable of producing us.
And I don't think enough

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consideration is given to the
implications of that way of

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framing the problem.
Was there any particular reason

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you chose Sean Carroll to have
this conversation with him in

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the paper?
I was curious.

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Well, among physicists, he's
actually far more conversant

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with some of the major issues in
philosophy related to philosophy

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of physics and philosophy of
mind.

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And, you know, he's willing to
engage philosophers in, in

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dialogue and he's very
respectful of philosophy.

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I I disagree with him
philosophically.

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But nonetheless, he felt like a,
a worthy sparring partner, as it

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were.
And I've actually heard from

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someone who was at a conference
that he did, I think in New York

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with Philip Goff a couple of
years ago, who printed out this

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article and gave it to Sean
Carroll.

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I haven't heard from from Sean.
I don't expect to, but it's

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possible he read it and was was
not convinced, but I figured he

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would be a good sparring
partner.

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Yeah.
Do you think that because I

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think Sean is a many worlds
theorist, if, if if I'm not

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mistaken, do you find the many
worlds theorist versus those

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with Copenhagen views, the ones
that many worlds are a little

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bit more open minded to these
philosophical discussions or or

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the reverse, this is just.
Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure I

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find many, the many worlds
interpretation to be

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metaphysically extravagant in
the extreme.

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I mean, talk about ontological
overflow and chucking Occam's

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razor.
I mean, Sean would say, well,

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we're just saying the wave
function is reality.

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That is Occam's razor.
But ontologically speaking, to

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multiply infinitely many other
worlds in order to claim that

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you're offering a rational
explanation of, of quantum

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physics to me is I mean, it's
it's it's like bad metaphysics

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to me.
I, I don't, not that I would

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affirm, you know, whatever the
standard interpretation of the

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quantum of the Copenhagen, the
standard Copenhagen

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interpretation, I'm not
necessarily wanting to affirm

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that.
I've actually been more

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attracted recently to the
transactional interpretation as

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developed by Ruth Kastner.
Had a conversation with her

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about that a few weeks ago
where, you know, we don't need

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to go too deep into this, but
the idea of unitarity,

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maintaining unitarity is what's
motivating the many worlds

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interpretation.
I think that the wave function

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00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:22,520
never collapses really, whereas
the transactional interpretation

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00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,840
says no, we should take our
everyday experience of one world

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00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:31,800
line seriously and understand
quantum physics to be describing

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00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,760
a field of possibility that
opens up between measurements.

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00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:42,480
But, you know, reality is, is
this continual oscillation

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00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,840
between actualization, opening
out new potentialities, which

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00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:51,000
then only one actuality, one
possibility, rather gets

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00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,680
actualized.
And so there's a constant break

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00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:59,000
of unitarity in our actual
experience and in the actual

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00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:03,480
unfolding of the world.
But yeah, all that's to say, I

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00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,320
find many worlds to be
singularly unconvincing as an

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00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,760
interpretation of quantum
physics.

241
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,760
I think it's rather absurd
actually, No offense to Sean

242
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,200
Carroll or or any followers of
Everett.

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00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,560
I mean, it's a in terms of an
abstract way of trying to

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00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,160
resolve a conceptual problem,
it's great.

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00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,920
But when you try to bring that
back into dialogue with our

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00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,200
experience of the world and the
presuppositions of the of

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00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,960
conscious agency, which again,
if we're not conscious agents

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00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:37,280
making decisions to actualize
certain possibilities and to not

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00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,680
actualize others, then I don't
know how science is even

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00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,840
possible.
It's, it's, it's crazy.

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00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,840
I was meant to chat to Ruth
Kestner on the day after we

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00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,720
initially were meant to speak,
but due to technical

253
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,040
difficulties for those
listening, Matt and I had a bit

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00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:53,960
of a trouble, a bit of an issue
last week.

255
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:58,240
Anyway, for for any any
physicist or physicalist, let's

256
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,600
say that makes the claim that
subjective experience is simply

257
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,400
an illusion produced by the
brain, let's say.

258
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,440
What do you think is the
strongest counter argument to

259
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,840
this point?
How would you address this as a

260
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,160
main counter argument?
What would be your go to?

261
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,400
Well, I mean, strangely enough,
I'm tempted to go back to

262
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:23,600
Descartes and lean on the
strength of his methodology

263
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,840
here.
I mean, in his Meditations on

264
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,440
1st Philosophy, you know, he he
makes the compelling

265
00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,960
phenomenological case that, you
know, we know what we know best

266
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,960
is our own subjective
experience.

267
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,360
And you know, he goes through
this exercise of doubting

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00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:45,600
everything that our senses tell
us about the world and even

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00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,840
doubting everything that we
think we know intellectually.

270
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,120
You know, he says, not only
could I be deceived about my

271
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,280
sensory experience of the world
out there, you know, the people

272
00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,600
he's looking out his window at
people walking on the street in

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00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,240
their coats and hats is like,
those could be automatons.

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00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,880
I don't know for sure.
My, my, I could be dreaming and

275
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,240
all of this is imagined.
But even logical propositions,

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00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,720
mathematical equations, you
know, he says I could be

277
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:20,200
deceived that 5 + 5 = 10.
I mean, maybe, maybe that's not

278
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,000
true and I only think it's true,
but this demon is, is deceiving

279
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,000
even my very cognitive process.
But the one thing he says I

280
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,080
could not doubt would be my own
capacity to doubt my own

281
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,360
thinking activity.
You know, he says in

282
00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:38,200
Meditations, I think I am and
the syllogistic form of it, I

283
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:39,680
think therefore I am comes
later.

284
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:47,040
But this acquaintance, this,
this intuitive access that we

285
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,680
have to our own thinking
activity is I, I agree with

286
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,120
Descartes.
It's, it's really the, the, the

287
00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:55,800
one feature of our experience
that we can be most certain of.

288
00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:03,360
And so like Descartes, I would
say scientific, the scientific

289
00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:07,200
method, scientific rationality,
scientific empiricism, science

290
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:12,840
as such flows out of our
capacity as thinking beings,

291
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,320
right.
And so if if that is just an

292
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,520
illusion, if our subjectivity is
an illusion, well then so is

293
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,680
science, So is scientific
knowledge.

294
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,280
There is no such thing as
knowledge if subjectivity is an

295
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,720
illusion.
And so it's quite a a sort of

296
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:32,480
pulling the rug out from under
oneself type of maneuver to both

297
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:37,320
want to affirm scientific
knowledge, say a reductionistic

298
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,600
understanding of the brain and
that the mind is just the

299
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:45,040
activity of the brain.
That is a performative self

300
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:46,480
contradiction.
In a way.

301
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:51,080
You're undermining your, your
very cognitive and epistemic

302
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:55,600
capacity to make that claim when
you deny that mind has any

303
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,600
reality beyond just
neurochemistry.

304
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,720
Right.
If we can know the neurochemical

305
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,520
correlates, roughly speaking, of
consciousness, it's because our

306
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,920
consciousness is capable of
knowing that.

307
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,840
I mean, what is knowledge if not
an expression of the reality of

308
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,040
our subjective experience?
Knowledge has to, you know,

309
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:21,920
knowledge can't just be reduced
to, you know, vibrating

310
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,320
molecules in the synapses of our
neurons.

311
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:28,960
It's, it's, it's a
phenomenological activity in

312
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,240
knowing right.
And so we, we have to be very I,

313
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,000
I think science scientists
should be more cautious about

314
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,240
dismissing subjective
experience, lest they saw the

315
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:40,720
branch off that they're perched
on.

316
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,720
Have you, have you found that
your exploration within this

317
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:50,600
field, this anti scientism
approach, leads people to

318
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,040
believe you're just anti
science?

319
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,400
Yeah, it's unfortunate.
I get that a lot.

320
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,400
I'm I love science.
Yeah, my son happens to me as a

321
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,480
doctor.
Just people just think I'm non

322
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,160
medical because I explore these
consciousness topics.

323
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,960
But it's, it's heartbreaking
when people think that they

324
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,160
don't really understand the
depth I think of the

325
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,200
conversation.
It's a very anti scientific

326
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,760
attitude to take like, you know,
allowed to criticize specific

327
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:22,000
forms of or, or specific
scientific claims.

328
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:28,400
And, and I think it's also a
matter of respecting the sort of

329
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,120
division of Labor, but the
proper division of Labor between

330
00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:35,040
philosophy and science.
And there's this attitude that

331
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:36,480
we don't need philosophy
anymore.

332
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,320
That's the scientistic attitude.
And so those with this more

333
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:46,360
scientistic approach, of course,
are going to refer to anyone

334
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,280
raising philosophical questions
about science as anti science

335
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,120
because, you know, if if you
were properly scientific, you

336
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,520
would realize that philosophy is
of no use anymore.

337
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,920
We've already answered all of
the philosophical questions.

338
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,960
Science has replaced philosophy
would be the the attitude.

339
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,200
And I think that's just, I think
that's just dead wrong.

340
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,520
There are so many questions that
cannot be answered by empirical

341
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,120
means, right?
And, and science itself as a

342
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:21,640
method is, is floating on top of
a philosophical substructure, as

343
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:26,200
it were, right?
Like science and all of its

344
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:31,720
successes and and advances, is,
is just the very top of the

345
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,840
iceberg.
And below that or is is is a

346
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:39,240
deep history of philosophical
reflection and justification

347
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,200
that Kate needs to be
continually reworked and

348
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,200
addressed as we make new
scientific discoveries.

349
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,240
And so there is an interplay and
a conversation, a mutual

350
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,680
transformation of science and
philosophy, but we're always

351
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,360
going to need to be asking
philosophical questions that

352
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:56,600
don't have straightforward
scientific answers.

353
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,840
Well, at this point, let's let's
move on to the paper again.

354
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:05,960
You and I labeled the second
chapter Pan Experientialism and

355
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,880
Organic Realism.
Whitehead's organic realism

356
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,400
contrasts with mechanistic
materialism.

357
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:18,600
How does how does it change the
way we think about causality and

358
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,720
the relationship between mind
and matter in general?

359
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:29,400
So Whitehead introduces this
term prehension, which is such a

360
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:35,400
crucial concept in his
philosophy of Organism, and it

361
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:40,240
has to do with causality, but it
also has to do with perception

362
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,440
and memory.
In some sense, he's trying to

363
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:52,560
come up with 11 concept that can
explain various facets of

364
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,960
reality to us.
I mean, since David Hume

365
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:03,240
challenged the idea of necessary
connection in nature, and, you

366
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,880
know, as an empiricist, he said
we don't have any experiential

367
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:13,120
justification for this idea of
necessary connection.

368
00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:17,120
And, you know, Kant read this
and says famously that this

369
00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:19,880
awoke, he says, this awoke me
from my dogmatic slumber.

370
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,320
And Kant has to then say, Oh,
well, we can't do science

371
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,920
without causality, so it must be
an A priori category that we

372
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,960
must interpret our experience in
terms of.

373
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:36,320
But the thing with Hume is in
his own account of why we are

374
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,320
not aware of causality, that all
we see is, you know, 1 billiard

375
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:45,680
ball hit another billiard ball
and the response of the second

376
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,480
billiard ball to the force of
the first.

377
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,480
You know, we think we know
what's going to happen, but it's

378
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,920
not a necessary connection.
It's just because of our own

379
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:58,080
psychological habits are
memories of having witnessed

380
00:23:58,080 --> 00:23:59,880
similar events in the past, we
assume.

381
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,560
And if they're inductive
generalization, we know what's

382
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,600
going to happen next, but we
don't actually know with any

383
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,240
certainty.
But the thing that Whitehead

384
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:13,200
does that's so brilliant in
reading Hume very carefully is

385
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,280
Hume actually admits that we do
have direct experience of

386
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:20,760
causality when he says that we
see with our eyes, we hear with

387
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,440
our ears this witness, Whitehead
refers to it as the witness of

388
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,360
the body that, you know, when
you flick on a light switch in a

389
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:32,080
dark room and your eyes blink,
that is direct experience of

390
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:38,840
causal efficacy, right?
And so bodily feeling for

391
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,680
Whitehead becomes the kind of
prototype of causal transmission

392
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,720
throughout nature because he
says, look, our our living

393
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,080
bodies are part of nature.
They're just as much a part of

394
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,480
the environment as anything else
there, the mountain, a cloud, a

395
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,760
river.
And So what we feel

396
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,760
subjectively, so to speak, as
the transmission of feeling

397
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:04,800
through our bodies, emotion and,
and pain and pleasure.

398
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,920
This must be in some sense
analogous to how causality

399
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:14,280
operates in in the rest of, of
nature, whether it's living

400
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,800
nature or just physics and and
chemistry.

401
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,360
That prehension for Whitehead
is, I mean, it's synonymous with

402
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,720
the closest synonym.
Synonym would just be feeling,

403
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:27,600
right, that the causal
transmission through nature is

404
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,800
actually the transmission of
feelings from what he would say

405
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,040
is 1 occasion of experience to
the next.

406
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,520
And most of the enduring bodies
that we see in the world around

407
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,520
us, you know, tables and, and
chairs and trees and other

408
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,480
organisms, our own bodies are
actually what he would call

409
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,040
societies of these occasions of
experience.

410
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,960
And the way that a enduring body
maintains its form over time is

411
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,920
by transmitting and repeating
the same sorts of feelings over

412
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,880
and over again or definite
characteristics over and over

413
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,040
again.
And so you get this very

414
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:13,360
different picture of the natural
world that is stitched together

415
00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:18,520
by these these drops of
experience that inherit from one

416
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:24,840
another via prehension, which is
again a kind of transmission of

417
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:29,080
feeling or even emotion.
So Whitehead thinks that the

418
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:36,200
most primitive form of of
transaction in nature is

419
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:41,000
actually emotion, blind emotion.
He says it's not self, it's not

420
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,120
conscious self reflection upon
an emotional state.

421
00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:48,640
It's just the rush of emotion.
And so not only does this put

422
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,880
feeling back into nature, it
also puts aim and purpose back

423
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,200
into nature, right?
So it's not just the motion of

424
00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:02,120
bodies, it's the there's an
emotional current that's drawing

425
00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:04,440
things forward to achieve
certain goals.

426
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,440
And Wyatt doesn't think that
these goals are imposed from

427
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,040
outside by some kind of
designer, their goals that arise

428
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:14,960
from the desires of of organisms
themselves, right.

429
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:23,120
So it's you could say it's it's
Whitehead is deploying an yet

430
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:26,680
another example of this old
Hermetic maxim, you know, as

431
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,400
above, so below, as below, so
above.

432
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,320
But in some sense as within, so
without.

433
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:37,040
And that's not really, you know,
just Whitehead drawing on some,

434
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,720
you know, ancient occult
philosophical idea or something.

435
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,400
I mean, you can understand
Newton's approach to universal

436
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,720
gravitation as as abiding by the
same harmonic maxim, right?

437
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,480
This is this is rooted deeply in
science and when it's just

438
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,840
applying it more thoroughly,
right?

439
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,960
At some point you suggest a
well, you suggest that physics

440
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,160
must incorporate experience into
its models.

441
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,800
So I had the first thought that
came to my mind was how would or

442
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,400
what would physics that fully
embraces a pan experientialism

443
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,400
look like?
Like like what would that be?

444
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,560
Is that something we could
comprehend or prehend?

445
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,520
I mean, it, it wouldn't
necessarily look all that

446
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,520
different.
I what would be different would

447
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,640
be our philosophical
interpretation of all of these

448
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:40,880
physical models that we have
instead of thinking that, you

449
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:45,080
know, based on Einstein's
general relativity that

450
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:51,640
space-time really was this four
dimensional manifold or fabric,

451
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,280
we would say, OK, that's a
model.

452
00:28:55,120 --> 00:29:00,600
And ultimately what's, what's
real and what's concrete is, is

453
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,360
going to need to be our
experiential encounter with

454
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:12,920
so-called space-time.
And you know, for Whitehead, the

455
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:18,000
kind of geometry that we use to
understand the physical world is

456
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:25,600
somewhat a matter of convention.
We're trying with geometry.

457
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,080
We're always trying to make
measurements.

458
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,360
And depending on our purposes,
one kind of measurement will be

459
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,160
more valuable to us.
So that then another kind of

460
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,680
measurement.
The the fallacy of misplaced

461
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,840
concreteness, as he understands
it, is, is what happens when we

462
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,240
forget that whichever form of
measurement we've chosen is an

463
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,400
abstraction and we, we, we
mistakenly concretize it and

464
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,360
think, oh, that's the way nature
really is.

465
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,160
And, and so, you know, physics
is, and science, natural science

466
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,120
is always going to be in the
business of making models and

467
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,280
testing models, throwing them up
against reality and seeing how

468
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,840
and where they break and then
fixing them and trying again.

469
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:12,680
And that's tremendously useful.
But I think to take a pan

470
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,760
experientialist view of the
universe, it isn't so much

471
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,280
change the everyday practice of
natural science.

472
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,560
I mean, it might raise certain
ethical issues that would would

473
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,520
steer us away from certain kinds
of experiments because, you

474
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,480
know, we're dealing with beings
that can feel what we're doing

475
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,320
to them.
But I think overall science

476
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,480
would remain a kind of model
building enterprise, but there

477
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,440
it would be situated within a
broader philosophy of nature

478
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,480
wherein we recognize the
difference between abstract

479
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,840
models and concrete reality.
And that in, in the most

480
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,720
concrete sense, the universe
would be understood to be more

481
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,200
like an Organism.
And every scientific discipline

482
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,440
and scientific model is
dissecting that Organism and

483
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,200
taking a little slice of it,
dyeing it and freezing it and

484
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,280
sticking it under a microscope.
And of course, we can learn a

485
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:06,880
lot through those sorts of
methods of of, you know,

486
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,400
reductionism, more or less, but
that's a methodology and not an

487
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,840
ontology.
And so the problem is mistaking

488
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,400
one for the other.
And so, you know, Whitehead's

489
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,440
proposal here, where the
philosophy of Organism is, is

490
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:26,160
not trying to tell scientists
doing their work that they need

491
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,600
to to totally change everything
about their methodology.

492
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,040
It's just step back and
recognize the larger context

493
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,880
here, and don't mistake the
abstractions of your special

494
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,120
science for the nature of
concrete reality itself.

495
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,080
I think at some point that sort
of links to White Ed's idea of

496
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:50,280
propositional feelings, because
this is sort of going to reshape

497
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,560
the way we think of models in
reality.

498
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,440
Would you like to unpack that a
little?

499
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,680
Yeah, so, you know, White Ed's
he, he worked with Bertrand

500
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,480
Russell on the Perkypa
Mathematica and they both really

501
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:10,440
advanced this logic and
developed propositional

502
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:16,160
functions that, you know, really
opened up a whole new form of,

503
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,720
of inquiry into the structure of
thinking, the structure of

504
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,320
language and and the structure
of mathematics.

505
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,160
But famously the logicist
project fails.

506
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,800
Girdle proves why formally in in
the early 1930s with his

507
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:39,680
incompleteness theorems.
And even before Girdle,

508
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,240
Whitehead was aware of the
limitations of the attempt to,

509
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:50,840
in a way, reduce all of
mathematics to formal logical

510
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,720
sort of deductions without the
need for any intuitive leaps.

511
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:02,480
That turned out not to work.
And so Whitehead's left with a

512
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:07,920
real desire to put, to take
logic as far as it can go.

513
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,080
But he's recognizing that
logicians have been so obsessed

514
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:16,560
with the true truth value of,
of, of propositions, of logical

515
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,200
propositions that they've
neglected the way that

516
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,720
propositions function in the
real world.

517
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,560
And So what Whitehead ends up
doing is he's generalizing the

518
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,760
idea of a proposition beyond
just a linguistic statement that

519
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,800
a logician might judge as true
or false.

520
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:39,440
And instead propositions become
these entities.

521
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,480
He he would refer to them as
hybrid entities that are

522
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:48,000
somewhere between actuality and
possibility.

523
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,720
Propositions refer to actuality,
but they refer to possibilities

524
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,840
that are latent in actuality.
And he would say that I think

525
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,480
all, at least all living
organisms have the capacity to

526
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,240
feel propositions.
And now again, just to

527
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,080
reiterate, these are not
linguistic anymore.

528
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,719
Why did would say our language
and the structure of the the

529
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,960
grammar of various languages is
an expression of the fact that

530
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,000
there are propositional feelings
at work deeper in our, in our

531
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,320
biology.
And so any Organism that can

532
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,360
intend in the sense of a
phenomenological intentionality,

533
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:32,040
an object is in some sense
feeling a proposition, right?

534
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,719
Because it's, it's noticing
there's an entity out there that

535
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,400
I am directing my attention
toward.

536
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,520
And that entity may have certain
qualities.

537
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,920
And each proposition is
attributing certain qualities to

538
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,199
that entity.
Whitehead would refer to the the

539
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,440
logical subject of a proposition
and then the predicative

540
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,880
pattern.
The logical subject is always

541
00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:57,760
other actual entities in the
environment of the prehending

542
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,320
entity or actual occasion, and
the predicative pattern would be

543
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,840
what he calls eternal objects.
I'm laying out the technical

544
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,200
details here in case anyone's a
super nerd.

545
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,840
But, you know, the idea here is
that propositions allow

546
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,760
organisms to both relate to the
real world and to consider novel

547
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,480
possibilities about that world.
And these propositions

548
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,160
themselves can propagate through
the generations of organisms.

549
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,000
And as new propositions enter
into the world, they they change

550
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:33,320
that world, right?
And so Whitehead will say it's

551
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,760
more important that a
proposition be interesting, that

552
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:40,920
that'd be true right now.
He adds that of course, a true

553
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:45,040
proposition tends to be more
interesting, but but not always.

554
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,480
And it's the fact that
propositions can enter into the

555
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,920
experience of an Organism and
then become part of the world as

556
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,920
a result of how they affect the
behavior of that Organism that

557
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,640
allows novelty to enter the
world.

558
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,280
If, if we could only consider
true propositions, our

559
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,640
experience would always just
conform to the past, right?

560
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,120
And so truth as a conformal
relationship to what has already

561
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,480
occurred would leave us right
where we started, right?

562
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:17,240
But the fact that we can ingress
novel propositions allows for a

563
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:20,160
kind of evolutionary process.
We can test out new

564
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,560
possibilities, and if they work,
the world has changed.

565
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,160
Something new becomes true that
wasn't true before, right?

566
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,320
So there's a lot to this theory
of propositions, but hopefully

567
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,560
that gives people a sense for
the basic picture.

568
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,400
If there's anything further
you'd like to unpack then feel

569
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,680
free.
Probably good for now.

570
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,720
They can read the paper if they
want more of the details.

571
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,440
I'll I'll link down below.
Tell me Matt, if if feeling is

572
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:53,080
integrate integral, sorry to the
structure of reality.

573
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,200
Does this suggest?
I think I've asked a few people

574
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,640
this before, but does this
suggest that consciousness is

575
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:05,040
sort of a fundamental force of
of reality, similar to gravity

576
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,320
or electromagnetism?
What?

577
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:09,960
How do we view this from this
perspective?

578
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,360
So Whitehead actually thinks
consciousness as such is

579
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:19,240
somewhat peripheral and
derivative from a more primary

580
00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:22,240
form of experience.
This is a stumbling block often

581
00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:27,720
for folks to think of non
conscious forms of experience,

582
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:30,400
but that's what Whitehead is
asking us to do.

583
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,160
He wants to reserve the term
consciousness for a particularly

584
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,680
complex form of experience.
He actually says that again,

585
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:43,760
I'll give the technical account.
He he offers that consciousness

586
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,440
is the subjective form of a
propositional feeling.

587
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,640
And propositional feelings, like
I said, are are really only

588
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,680
active in in the world at the
level of living organisms.

589
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,840
It's not that there isn't
feeling in the physical and, and

590
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:03,000
chemical levels of reality, but
it's, it's not yet propositional

591
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,560
in form, properly speaking.
And so it's not yet conscious.

592
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,560
And So what, what a proposition
allows, again, right, is this

593
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:15,240
contrast between actuality and
possibility, consciousness

594
00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:17,440
similarly, similarly for
Whitehead, it's all about the

595
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,800
feeling of negation, he says,
Which is to say we become

596
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,880
conscious to the degree that
we're not only aware of what is

597
00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:28,440
what we're factually perceiving,
but we're also aware of what

598
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,560
could be perceived but is not
being perceived.

599
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:37,800
So we're aware of the knot of
the negative and that absence is

600
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,680
the space in which conscious and
self-conscious experience

601
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,920
arises.
Most occasions of experience,

602
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,640
including our own day-to-day and
day to night, when you

603
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,080
especially consider sleep, most
of our experience is not

604
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,200
conscious, but it's still
experience.

605
00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:56,440
You know, we wake up from a
dream and we weren't conscious

606
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,720
in the dream, but we remember
having experienced something in

607
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:03,080
the dream, right?
And so I think similarly, when

608
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:04,960
we're driving a car and we're
talking to a friend in the

609
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,240
passenger seat, we're not
actually consciously attending

610
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,640
moment by moment to the road.
And in some sense, if we're

611
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,480
overly conscious of of every
little manoeuvre we're making on

612
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,680
the road, we're probably an
anxious driver and not very

613
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,320
safe, right?
And so there's this deeper level

614
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,160
of experience that's very much
aware of what's going on, but

615
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,800
isn't self reflective about it.
Flow states, you know, so there

616
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,680
are plenty of examples that I
think helped bring home this

617
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:32,680
distinction White is making.
And so for him, it's not

618
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,240
consciousness that goes all the
way down.

619
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:40,040
It is this, this more basic form
of feeling or experience or

620
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,480
emotion.
And so that's a subtle

621
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,360
distinction, but I think it
helps avoid the charge of like

622
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:52,000
anthropomorphism or something
that White is just saying this

623
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,120
high level human consciousness
is somehow metaphysically

624
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,200
fundamental.
He's not saying that often

625
00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:59,400
though.
These words get used in

626
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,160
different ways.
And so when a lot of

627
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,960
panpsychists who are coming at
the this approach from a non

628
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,080
white headian perspective say
consciousness goes all the way

629
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,280
down, they might in the end mean
something similar to this more

630
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:17,000
basic form of experience.
So it might just be a verbal

631
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:18,960
dispute.
But I think these distinctions

632
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:24,120
do carry some conceptual weight.
What do you think about it,

633
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,520
Matt?
How do you perceive

634
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:28,280
consciousness?
What do you think?

635
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:33,520
What are your thoughts on this?
Well, I mean, I, I wouldn't want

636
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,000
to, I, I do think I am a kind of
theist.

637
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,760
I, I, you know, a pan and theist
or pan Gen. theist.

638
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,600
And to put the, the, the, the
idea of Genesis and evolution

639
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,440
into that God world
relationship.

640
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,760
And so on some level, I, I would
want to understand the divine as

641
00:40:53,400 --> 00:41:02,200
a conscious being, but I think
that consciousness, even the

642
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,720
divine consciousness is evolving
and, and learning in the course

643
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:12,840
of cosmogenesis.
And so I guess in some ways

644
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:20,120
that's not all that different
from a kind of cosmos psychism,

645
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,120
you know, where instead of
thinking of a bunch of little

646
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:27,200
consciousnesses that might add
up to bigger consciousness like

647
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:32,880
our own, there's, there's one
consciousness that somehow

648
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:40,320
divides itself.
And I think, you know, I'm not

649
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,280
entirely comfortable with either
of those pictures, but

650
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,680
nonetheless, I do think that
there is a, a kind of divine

651
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:52,200
consciousness within which all
of us and all of the universe

652
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,400
exists as an expression of that
consciousness.

653
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:03,880
And so if we're going to talk
about photons and electrons and

654
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:09,400
atoms and these physical
particles and the fields that

655
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,600
they are excitations within as
in some sense experiential,

656
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,640
though not conscious, that
doesn't mean that all of that

657
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:20,720
isn't taking place within some
kind of megamind or, or world

658
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:24,960
soul, if you want, right?
So I wouldn't want to fully deny

659
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:30,040
that consciousness is somehow
very close to the ultimate

660
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,880
nature of reality.
Have these always been your

661
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,040
views or do you feel that over
the years the influence of

662
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:41,000
Whitehead, your religion,
etcetera have changed it and

663
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,320
reshaped it in any ways?
Or have this has this been

664
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,800
pretty much where you've been
for quite some time?

665
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:55,080
My views have developed over the
last, you know, since I started

666
00:42:55,440 --> 00:43:03,360
philosophizing in any sense the
last 20 years now, I guess I

667
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,480
think I was initially more
inclined towards this like

668
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,480
Buddhist attitude, say in my in
my late teens and early 20s.

669
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,960
This Buddhist attitude of, you
know, metaphysics might be

670
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:18,720
interesting, but let's focus
more on alleviating suffering

671
00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:23,160
and becoming better people.
And I, I still think that that's

672
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,400
important, but I, I just, I
caught the speculative bug and I

673
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:28,920
really wanted to know the
answers to some of these, some

674
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:33,280
of these questions, You know,
whereas in my late teens, I

675
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,840
thought, oh, this whole
enlightenment thing sounds good.

676
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:37,520
It can't be that hard.
Let's give it a try.

677
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,280
Turned out that life is messy
and difficult.

678
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,400
And I, you know, we can still
strive to be better, more

679
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:50,520
integrated people, but the idea
of just, you know, killing my

680
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,440
ego and, and waking up one day
and his enlightened being seemed

681
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,680
less realistic as I got a little
older.

682
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,080
And so these deeper metaphysical
questions became more

683
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,040
interesting to me.
And I did discover Whitehead

684
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:06,600
pretty early, like 20/22/23.
I started reading him.

685
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:14,880
And you know, as much as I've
tried to find places where I, I

686
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:19,000
feel his scheme is inadequate,
I, I, I really haven't been able

687
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:23,400
to, to find anything more
convincing.

688
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,840
And so Whitehead has been very
influential for me for, for

689
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:32,880
quite a while now and really
shapes the, the structure of my

690
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,080
thought.
So I've been pretty consistent,

691
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,800
I think for, for a while.
And I mean, the evidence is out

692
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:39,960
there.
I've been making YouTube videos

693
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,240
forever.
So anyone who wants to check to

694
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:46,360
see if I've made any major
shifts, I don't think so though.

695
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,560
I'll I'll put a link to the
channel as well because it's

696
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,920
really enjoyable.
The Do you think that a pan

697
00:44:54,920 --> 00:45:00,600
experientialist view is can
allow for a scientifically

698
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:10,840
coherent notion of free will?
I think so.

699
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,760
I mean, White Ed's approach to
pan experientialism implies that

700
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:24,120
there's at least a modicum of
create creative self, creative

701
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,120
activity present at every scale
in nature.

702
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,840
And so there's no determinism in
his universe.

703
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,680
There's creative evolution,
there's creative advance, and

704
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:43,840
certainly there are more
conformal, repetitive types of

705
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,840
activity in in nature.
That's why there is order in the

706
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,440
world.
That's why we can develop in

707
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:58,800
physics and chemistry laws,
though strictly speaking, in a

708
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,520
white Hedian cosmology, laws are
more like habits.

709
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,720
But, you know, gravity is of is
a widespread ancient habit

710
00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:11,400
that's very unlikely to change
anytime soon.

711
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,720
But nonetheless, it's a habit
which has been acquired by the

712
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:17,520
universe over the course of
billions of years of cosmic

713
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:23,960
evolution.
And, and so at the level of, you

714
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,400
know, conscious animals like us,
I think it's very clear that the

715
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:34,480
capacity to make decisions that
do not conform simply with the

716
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,000
patterns of the past is that
that's evident.

717
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,680
It's it's part of what learning
is all about and whether or not

718
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,840
a a decision can be termed free
in any ultimate sense.

719
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,360
You know there's always going to
be a tension between the

720
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:59,240
conditions provided by the past
and the possibilities open for

721
00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:06,640
realization in the future.
We are constrained by by the

722
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,640
past.
We're constrained by our

723
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:16,080
Physiology, but this in the same
way that, you know, we can think

724
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,920
of, say, our physiological
constraints as holding us back,

725
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:24,520
they're also affordances that,
that provide us with an

726
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,960
opportunity to, to, to freely
decide to do certain things.

727
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:32,920
And so, you know, we, we inherit
not only limitations on our

728
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:37,400
freedom, but we inherit
capacities for making free

729
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:42,080
decisions.
I think the fact that animals

730
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:50,360
evolved nervous systems is as a
way of not just reacting to

731
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:59,520
stimuli, but responding to
stimuli, which is to say, on the

732
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,840
basis of what has been learned
over the course of a lifetime,

733
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:10,360
animals with with nervous
systems can can perform novel

734
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,960
functions.
And you know, when you bring

735
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,080
consciousness into play here,
it's as if what consciousness

736
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,320
adds to this more basic form of
experience is like a dilation of

737
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:25,560
time wherein alternative
possibilities can be considered

738
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:31,680
before responding to, you know,
whatever our perception is is

739
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,280
giving us from the environment.
And so a conscious human being

740
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:42,240
has this imaginative capacity to
explore various possibilities

741
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:48,360
and, and to even develop
motivations by considering

742
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:53,120
certain images.
And you know, there's, there's

743
00:48:53,120 --> 00:49:05,360
not just a direct, direct
connection between an image that

744
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,520
we're considering and an action
that we take.

745
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:12,960
We have to have like the
willpower to act on on an image

746
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:14,960
or an idea.
And so there are several, you

747
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,920
know, it's making a free
decision is not necessarily the

748
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,200
easy, it's not necessarily the
easiest thing in the world to

749
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,760
do, But I nonetheless, I think
there is a pathway for us to do

750
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,560
so.
And it's, again, it's a kind of

751
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,400
hardcore common sense
presupposition that we have

752
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,400
agency.
We value the truth.

753
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:39,240
That's a that's a conscious
decision that that we make as

754
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,840
scientifically inclined minds,
you know.

755
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,560
And so if we don't have any
freedom, again, I don't know

756
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,680
that we can take science
seriously anymore.

757
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,640
Like science presupposes
conscious agency.

758
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,920
Yeah.
Overall, what what it seems like

759
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:02,360
to me is that your work seems to
be trying to unify scientific

760
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:07,440
rigor with lived experience.
And ultimately, how do you see

761
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:12,560
this?
Well, how can we do this in the

762
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,360
best way possible?
I mean, how can philosophers and

763
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,720
scientists collaborate to break
down these barriers and and make

764
00:50:18,720 --> 00:50:23,240
this more interdisciplinary?
Is that what partly footnotes to

765
00:50:23,240 --> 00:50:25,680
Plato's for or to work in
general?

766
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,720
Is that an attempt in itself?
And what else do you think we

767
00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:29,760
could do?
Because that's also

768
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,120
fundamentally what I'm doing.
Yeah.

769
00:50:33,720 --> 00:50:39,200
So if we look at, you know, the
last century and a half of the

770
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,400
way that science has developed
as a profession, I think it's

771
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:47,480
it's there are many ways in
which the professionalization of

772
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:54,320
science has led to more rigor
and more precision and the

773
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,480
development of journals with
jargons that allow for this

774
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,000
really deep penetration into the
ever more specialized modes of

775
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,880
inquiry and all that's important
and valuable.

776
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,400
But at the same time, this
professionalization has created

777
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,680
a culture of competition for
funding, for prestige.

778
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:18,560
And the thing about science, you
know, in its origins, it, it was

779
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:25,360
something that, you know, there
weren't yet university

780
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:30,400
departments where you got
slotted into to do a specific

781
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,200
kind of research.
People like Newton or Darwin,

782
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,000
you know, they were, they're
exploring based on where their

783
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:42,120
imagination drew them.
And you know, I think I know

784
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,560
Darwin was maybe Newton was too
sort of independently wealthy.

785
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:46,160
And so of course funding wasn't
an issue.

786
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:50,640
But as science becomes more and
more professionalized, it gets

787
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:55,920
Co opted by other values,
economic values, military

788
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,520
values.
I mean, military funding was

789
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,160
already a factor in the the
birth of science in the 17th

790
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:04,480
century.
I mean, Galileo and Descartes

791
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:06,760
were working on Ballistics to
pay the bills.

792
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,040
They were, you know, Galileo and
and Kepler and those guys were

793
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:12,600
also doing astrology to pay the
bills.

794
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,240
But that's another matter.
The history of science is way

795
00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:18,360
more interesting than most
people let on.

796
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,000
But in any event, I think one
way to improve the the

797
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,840
collaborative spirit among
scientists themselves and among

798
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,480
scientists and philosophers is
to remember that knowledge is

799
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:33,280
part of the Commons.
And I think science has been

800
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:40,760
really Co opted and and and
harmed by the capture, by being

801
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,520
captured by market forces and
being captured by government and

802
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:49,760
militaristic aims.
And as well and into we, we

803
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,800
really need to shift into a
different understanding of what

804
00:52:52,800 --> 00:53:00,520
knowledge is to break it free of
this competitive market type of

805
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,240
attitude where, you know, it's
all about making sure my lab is

806
00:53:04,240 --> 00:53:07,680
the best and I get all the
credit and I get all the funding

807
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:09,680
and we're going to defeat our
competitors.

808
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,720
How are we going to advance
when, when that's the motivation

809
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:21,840
this leads to, you know,
actually diverging from the, the

810
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,520
value of truth to fudge the
numbers a little bit to maybe

811
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:26,320
get a little bit more funding
and prestige.

812
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:27,840
You know, you, you see that
happening.

813
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:32,480
If we can shift to a more
collaborative approach to the

814
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:36,640
production of knowledge.
And I this has a lot to do with

815
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:43,000
shifting of the, the funding
structure to think of it, you

816
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,200
know, more as gift money.
That would be funding research

817
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:50,960
rather than money from some
corporation that has a specific

818
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:53,600
end in mind.
Like, look, we put a lot of

819
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,560
money into this drug.
You better design a study so

820
00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:00,960
that it works, you know, rather
than in an open minded way,

821
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,560
exploring different forms of
medicine without the profit mode

822
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,240
of driving at all, which
obviously distorts things.

823
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,880
And so I think this, yeah, this
professionalization of science

824
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:14,360
and philosophy which has
occurred over the last 150 years

825
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:17,560
or so, while it did bring some
benefits, has actually

826
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:24,560
fragmented knowledge and
distorted it, right, because of

827
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,800
these other motivations that
have come into the picture.

828
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:34,640
How does your address
existential concerns,

829
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,680
existential dread in a world
where the scientific mainstream

830
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:43,840
view is that of a cold dead in
different universe?

831
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:50,840
Yeah, well, I think this
scientific materialist view like

832
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:57,040
this sort of heroic atheism is
motivating enough for some

833
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:00,400
people like like Shawn Carroll,
Richard Dawkins, like there's

834
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,280
this, this attitude.
Jacques Minogue would talk about

835
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:07,960
us as sort of like lonely
gypsies on a mode of dust in

836
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,000
some random place at the edge of
the Galaxy.

837
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:15,800
It that that attitude of being
alone in a meaningless world and

838
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,600
nonetheless like soldiering on
it.

839
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:20,960
For some people that is a source
of meaning.

840
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:26,160
It's a kind of narrative that
get that that motivates them.

841
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:32,320
And it's in its own way a kind
of myth, another version of the

842
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,040
hero's journey.
And so I understand how it

843
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,720
functions, but I think it only
functions because it has that

844
00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:44,800
mythic structure to it.
But it's it's still that myth.

845
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,320
Though it can be a source of
meaning for some, I think it's

846
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:52,520
still alienating.
I think it inevitably

847
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:58,680
disconnects us from deeper
sources of meaning, but we end

848
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:01,000
up having to say that we make up
our own meaning.

849
00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:06,960
And you know, I, I pick on Sean
Carroll a little bit because he

850
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:10,480
thinks that it's a little easier
to make up our own meaning than

851
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:14,960
it actually is.
I think we very few of us are

852
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:20,960
satisfied just thinking that all
of our values are subjective

853
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:26,600
preferences.
And, and actually, if we, you

854
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:31,120
know, consider this politically,
if you're her kind of secular

855
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,840
atheist and a political liberal,
you would say, well, the values

856
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,600
of liberalism, like classical
liberalism, like, you know,

857
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,000
human rights and freedom of
speech and all this, you know,

858
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:43,320
we all reasonable people agree
and have that preference that we

859
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,720
should protect these rights.
And it turns out that that

860
00:56:45,720 --> 00:56:48,920
might, that subjective
preference as a, as a basis for

861
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:54,400
these rights might not actually
be all that secure as we see in

862
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:56,800
our current world.
You know, without any deeper

863
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:01,080
anchor for these values, they're
very easily uprooted and, and

864
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:07,600
replaced by those with beliefs
in what are what's been called

865
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:09,440
the strong gods.
You know, in this Nietzschean

866
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:14,960
sense that, you know, there,
there are these, these elemental

867
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:19,040
powers that are, are the source
for human values.

868
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:25,400
And that while we do play a
participatory role as human

869
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:29,000
beings, nonetheless our values
are sourced more deeply in our

870
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:33,240
biology if we're going to just
be materialist about it.

871
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,640
But also, I think in a
Whiteheadian sense, beyond just

872
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,240
our biology and these sort sort
of Darwinian drives, there are

873
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:45,400
these deeper cosmic values.
You know, Nietzsche would think

874
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:46,800
of it in terms of the will to
power.

875
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,240
And there's not, there's
something similar in Whitehead.

876
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:53,000
But for Whitehead, power is
always the power, the power of

877
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:57,320
composition.
There's it's, it's this power

878
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:03,280
for Whitehead is rooted in an
aesthetic desire to, to compose,

879
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:07,320
experience in a way that makes
it more beautiful or intensely

880
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:11,040
beautiful.
And so, you know, I think we're

881
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:16,040
better served by recognizing
that our human values are

882
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:20,760
actually derivative from deeper,
the deeper values of life, the

883
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:28,840
deeper values of evolution, Brit
large and that these aren't just

884
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:36,200
negative values in the sense
that it's just the struggle for

885
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:39,400
existence then.
And and this the those with the

886
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:44,880
the most brutal, you know,
values to encourage strength

887
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:50,440
and, you know, being the best
warrior or whatever that those

888
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:51,760
are the only values that end up
pointing out.

889
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:56,960
No, I think there are more
delicate values too that that we

890
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:00,480
inherit from these deeper cosmic
processes that are more geared

891
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:05,920
towards again, beauty and and
subtlety and compassion and

892
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:09,240
wisdom and love and so on.
And that these aren't just human

893
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:13,480
constructs.
These are actually why they're

894
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,240
even are human beings that the
fact that the human being

895
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:21,040
evolved as a, as a conscious
agent, capable of scientific

896
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:26,040
knowledge, capable of, capable,
not always actualizing, but

897
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:29,320
capable of wisdom and love and
compassion and so on.

898
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,040
I think that's evidence of the
fact that, you know, the

899
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:37,160
universe has these more deeply
rooted tendencies in it, right?

900
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:44,720
And so I, I, I don't know that
it's ultimately responsible for

901
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:47,960
scientists and, and
intellectuals who themselves

902
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:51,080
have been able to find meaning
in, in one of these materialist

903
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:56,240
stories by virtue of the heroism
that it affords them as like

904
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:58,280
little drops of meaning in a
soulless world.

905
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,760
I think it's irresponsible to
try to push that on the average

906
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:07,480
person because the average
person who's not, you know, who

907
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,960
doesn't have a life whereby A
narrative about being involved

908
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:13,840
in the production of scientific
knowledge and so on can can be

909
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:15,640
enough to motivate them and give
them meaning.

910
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:19,240
I think it actually really puts
us in a, in a dangerous

911
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:23,880
situation culturally, nihilism.
And, you know, Nietzsche warned

912
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:28,280
us what would happen if if
nihilism took root and became

913
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:30,960
widespread.
And that was the 20th century.

914
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,880
And and you know, quarter into
the 21st century, we're still

915
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:35,400
dealing with the same problem, I
think.

916
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:39,440
What do you think is the biggest
misconception about your work?

917
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,320
Oh, but at least about the way
people perceive your work.

918
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:49,160
Well, I think you hit on
something earlier when, you

919
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:53,080
know, you said people tend to
view this isn't as anti

920
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:59,240
scientific.
That's not at all my my

921
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:02,960
intention.
I don't think it's borne out

922
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:08,520
when you consider the work that
I have done trying to support

923
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:14,880
the advance of science and the
find better justifications

924
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:17,320
actually for science to save
science from its own self

925
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:21,240
annihilation and its own
performative, the performative

926
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:25,640
self contradictions of scientism
that undermines its own

927
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:33,280
conditions of possibility.
I think, you know, people who

928
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:36,560
are more religious in a
traditional way will criticize

929
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:42,200
me for not having the right
understanding of God.

930
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:47,600
And just as, you know, people
with a more materialist or

931
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:52,440
atheist bent will criticize me
for, you know, the irrational

932
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:59,000
belief in any kind of a God.
And so it depends, you know, the

933
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:01,600
biggest misconception depends on
where, where the other person is

934
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:04,840
coming from.
I, I often think of myself as an

935
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:08,960
integrative philosopher.
I'm, I'm trying to find the

936
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:12,480
middle path between various
extremes.

937
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:16,440
I think in some ways everybody
is right about something.

938
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:20,000
And so there's something to
learn from every position and

939
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:25,440
from every, every view.
And I, I wouldn't want to be too

940
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:31,080
quick to dismiss alternatives.
But I think whenever we're

941
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:34,360
whenever we find ourselves in a
situation of having to explain

942
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:39,840
away inconvenient facts, we know
that we're we're caught in some

943
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:47,120
kind of extreme ideological view
or an imbalanced perspective.

944
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:53,960
And so, yeah, I mean, I guess
the biggest misconception is

945
01:02:53,960 --> 01:03:10,280
that is that I'm just trying to
invent a view of the universe

946
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:16,080
that brings me comfort.
Whereas, you know, I often say

947
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:19,920
like the pan experientialist or
pan psychist view is, is

948
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:22,640
actually not comforting at all.
It's kind of frightening to

949
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:30,760
imagine that the world is imbued
with sentience and and that it's

950
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:32,600
not just me looking at the
world, but the world is looking

951
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:34,200
back.
I mean, it's it's kind of

952
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:37,080
unsettling.
It's not comforting.

953
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:43,360
I have to say it does, you know,
put us back in an ecology of a,

954
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:46,320
a, a world that's more like an
ecology of organisms than it is

955
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:48,040
just a collection of, of
objects.

956
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:53,320
But like literally ecology, that
means, you know, there are

957
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:54,960
predators out there who might
want to eat us.

958
01:03:56,040 --> 01:04:00,560
And so I think the world that
I'm describing is not simply one

959
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:03,440
where I would feel more
comfortable, but it is one where

960
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:12,800
I would feel more meaningful.
Well, Speaking of meaning, if if

961
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:16,160
you had to take this view to its
Max, it's telos, teleology of

962
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:20,360
the universe, meaning, purpose.
Where does it head for you?

963
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:30,720
I don't know in particular where
it's headed, but you know, this

964
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:35,160
is an interesting difference
between a thinker like Whitehead

965
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:39,640
and the Jesuit paleontologist
Pierre Terre des Chardin, whose

966
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:43,120
work I also love.
But I'm I'm less comfortable

967
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:47,600
with his almost deterministic
view of where evolution is

968
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:53,080
headed, that it's, it seems to
him, almost inevitable that the

969
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:59,680
evolution of life on Earth would
have culminated in thought or in

970
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:03,400
the conscious human being, which
then it's this new threshold of

971
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:05,400
evolution.
He refers, Tayard refers to the

972
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,080
human being as a new Kingdom of
life, not just a new species.

973
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:13,800
And the human is really bringing
forth what he calls the nose

974
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:17,080
fear or the layer of mind around
the planet.

975
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:20,720
And that evolution then
continues towards what he refers

976
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:23,560
to as Christogenesis and the
arise, the emergence of the

977
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:26,800
Omega Point, which for him
almost like pierces through

978
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:31,320
space-time and unifies life and
mind with with the divine.

979
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:33,840
And that you know, for him
there's this inevitable

980
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:39,920
curvature of the evolutionary
process toward this Omega point.

981
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:45,520
And I admit it's a it's a
beautiful and compelling vision,

982
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:51,600
but I'm not sure that there's
that much determination to this

983
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:54,080
process.
Whitehead is more open-ended

984
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:58,960
about where evolution is going,
but he would say, and I, I'm, I

985
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:02,000
think more inclined to agree
with Whitehead's perspective

986
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:08,360
here that there's a, there's a
general telos towards more

987
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:13,880
beauty, where beauty is the
capacity to hold more diversity

988
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:18,360
and harmony, right to, to, to
bring together what, what might

989
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:20,440
otherwise be conflicts into
contrasts.

990
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:27,840
And so the universe is, is
moving always towards more

991
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:32,040
intense expressions of beauty,
of aesthetic enjoyment.

992
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:35,480
And with the capacity for more
aesthetic enjoyment also comes

993
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:38,200
the capacity for more pain and
suffering, right?

994
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:44,480
But it seems as though the
possibility of of joy and deeper

995
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:50,520
beauty is worth it despite the
risks of of greater pain and

996
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:55,000
suffering otherwise, like why
would the evolution of life on

997
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:59,640
earth produced more and more
sensitive creatures capable of

998
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:03,720
more and more existential dread?
You know, like as the downside

999
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:08,120
to being such highly organized
and sensitive creatures, It

1000
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:11,640
seems that the joy and the and
the the experience of beauty

1001
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:15,760
afforded by our very sensitive
type of organization again, is,

1002
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:17,680
is worth it despite the
downsides.

1003
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:23,480
And so that general tendency
towards more complexity, more

1004
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:30,080
capacity to experience beauty,
seems to me to be at least

1005
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:33,400
providing A trajectory without
their having to be a definite

1006
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:36,040
and the point that we will reach
no matter what.

1007
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:41,040
Have you ever considered
renaming your channel footnotes

1008
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:48,040
to Whitehead?
I mean, in some sense, because

1009
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:51,440
that's a quote from Whitehead,
it's kind of already there for

1010
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:54,120
those in the know who know where
that girl comes from.

1011
01:07:55,560 --> 01:08:00,280
But, you know, Whitehead says
he's really only adapting

1012
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:04,360
Plato's view in light of modern
science.

1013
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:11,120
And that, you know, in some
sense Plato laid out all, of all

1014
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:15,520
of the problematics, all of the
approaches to perennial

1015
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:21,520
problems, some solutions that he
offers, but then he also

1016
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:24,680
critiques his own solutions.
You know, in the, in the, in the

1017
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:27,080
dialogues, you get all of these
great doctrines and the best

1018
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:32,800
refutations of those doctrines.
And so, you know, in in many

1019
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:37,160
ways Whitehead's already
returning to Plato, but in the

1020
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:40,479
spirit of Plato himself, you
know, in open-ended inquiry and

1021
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:43,479
not becoming dogmatically
attached to any particular

1022
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:50,800
doctrine, but just trying to
again integrate the variety of,

1023
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:56,439
of, of facts with the, the most
inclusive theoretical

1024
01:08:56,439 --> 01:09:00,920
interpretations of those facts.
Schilling, Whited.

1025
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:06,040
Kent, Great philosophers, Plato.
Who else would you recommend for

1026
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:10,359
the average listener viewer to
make sure they read before they

1027
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:19,760
leave this world?
Well, I, I find Ralph Waldo

1028
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:25,840
Emerson to be quite edifying in
the Platonist lineage and he's

1029
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:33,840
such a wonderful essayist who
can convey the, the deepest

1030
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:38,560
insights of not just the, the
tradition of Western philosophy,

1031
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:44,680
but Indian philosophy as well in
a, in an idiom that, at least

1032
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:49,160
for an English speaker, I think
is quite accessible and

1033
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:54,720
beautiful.
Everyone should read Nietzsche

1034
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:58,240
just to understand our, our
predicament.

1035
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:03,480
And it's very important to
confront nihilism and not bypass

1036
01:10:03,480 --> 01:10:06,600
that.
And so any re enchantment

1037
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:11,560
project or attempt to revitalize
a meaningful connection to to

1038
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:16,360
the cosmic process has to come
after nihilism, not before.

1039
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:20,480
We can't retreat from the
confrontation with, you know,

1040
01:10:20,480 --> 01:10:30,980
what Nietzsche is describing.
Yeah.

1041
01:10:30,980 --> 01:10:33,940
Who else else would I say?
I mean, it's good to read some

1042
01:10:33,940 --> 01:10:43,100
some poetry.
Rilke and Holderlin and

1043
01:10:44,820 --> 01:10:48,120
Wordsworth and Shelley and
Whitman.

1044
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:54,440
These are all important for me.
And I don't read much fiction.

1045
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:59,520
I'm, I'm often reading science
and philosophy books, but I do,

1046
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:04,480
I do read poetry as often as I
can because I think it keeps

1047
01:11:04,480 --> 01:11:06,960
language, it keeps my language
fresh.

1048
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:13,880
It helps me avoid becoming
overly formalist in, you know,

1049
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:16,280
finding jargon and sticking with
it forever.

1050
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:20,920
I, I think there's a way of
writing philosophy where you can

1051
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:24,200
get locked into particular
formulations and then they just

1052
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:26,560
become these mantras that
gradually lose their meaning.

1053
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:30,160
And then on the other hand,
people might complain, oh, but

1054
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:32,440
you're, you're so slippery.
You're constantly describing it

1055
01:11:32,440 --> 01:11:34,400
in different ways.
And like, I'm not even sure what

1056
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:36,560
you mean because you never say
it the same twice.

1057
01:11:37,040 --> 01:11:40,000
It's like, well, the concepts
I'm trying to direct your

1058
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:42,160
attention to you are not
identical to the words that I'm

1059
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:46,240
using to direct you.
And so learning to think is, I

1060
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:53,640
think, is a poetic process
because you find out gradually

1061
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:58,960
the deeper you go into this
conceptual territory, that in

1062
01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:01,600
different moments of life and
with different audiences in

1063
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:07,960
different contexts, it is best
to use different words to

1064
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:11,200
describe the same concepts,
right?

1065
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:15,000
And that way you avoid ever
collapsing the two and imagining

1066
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:18,400
that concepts are just words
because I don't think they are.

1067
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:20,440
I can't tell you what they are
because I could only use words

1068
01:12:20,440 --> 01:12:22,080
to do so.
But I think there is some kind

1069
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:26,720
of a tension there between
whatever a concept is and and

1070
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:30,520
the linguistic formulations we
use to to convey them.

1071
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:34,360
So poetry is important to keep
our language fluid, I think.

1072
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:39,440
I think that your work's
incredible, it's enjoyable to

1073
01:12:39,440 --> 01:12:43,320
watch, your channel's great and
every year as a guest has been

1074
01:12:43,320 --> 01:12:45,440
such a pleasure.
But I would be remiss if I don't

1075
01:12:45,440 --> 01:12:47,680
mention though that we were
meant to chats.

1076
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:51,680
I think a few months ago and due
to my recent move, unfortunately

1077
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:54,920
several technical issues
happened and to postpone a

1078
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:59,720
couple of interviews, but one of
those was not just ours, but our

1079
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:03,080
group interview for Mind at
Large, Peter Shusted use.

1080
01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:06,760
We spoke about this, this
concept, this huge conference

1081
01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:09,520
that's happening in December.
Hope we can actually going to

1082
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:12,480
attend as well.
But what can you tell me about

1083
01:13:12,480 --> 01:13:14,160
this Mind at Large?
What's going on here?

1084
01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:17,880
What are you guys up to?
Give us some info, Give us the

1085
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:20,000
deets.
Yeah.

1086
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:22,880
No, I can, I can spill some of
the beans on that.

1087
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:31,040
So myself and Peter and the good
folks at the Center for process

1088
01:13:31,040 --> 01:13:37,080
studies, Andrew Davis and Andrew
Schwartz as well as Alex Gomez

1089
01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:42,520
Marin from the the Perry Center
and others were assembling a

1090
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:45,440
larger team.
We're planning this multi year

1091
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:50,800
project that will be, you know,
primarily a series of

1092
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:53,360
conferences.
I think we have 3 in mind and we

1093
01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:57,040
want to, we want to tell a story
over the course of of three

1094
01:13:57,040 --> 01:14:02,240
years in these conferences
describing, you know, first of

1095
01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:06,440
all, how did we get here to, to
this inflection point where we

1096
01:14:06,440 --> 01:14:09,400
have more knowledge of the
universe than ever before?

1097
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:12,640
And yet was it Steven Weinberg
who said the more we know about

1098
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:15,000
the universe, the less
meaningless it, the less

1099
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:16,880
meaningful it seems?
Why?

1100
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:18,840
Why is that?
Why is that the story that we

1101
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:22,160
have ended up telling as our
knowledge of the universe has

1102
01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:25,800
increased?
Why wouldn't we tell a different

1103
01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:30,400
kind of story where we're amazed
by the fact that the universe is

1104
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:33,480
intelligible at all and that
we're capable of decoding?

1105
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:39,560
It's it's, it's structure, it's
logical physical structure.

1106
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:43,440
And so we want to understand how
we got here, and we want to

1107
01:14:43,440 --> 01:14:46,680
explore the variety of
alternatives to materialism that

1108
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:50,480
are all the sudden back on the
table, various forms of

1109
01:14:50,480 --> 01:14:53,400
idealism, various forms of
panpsychism and animism.

1110
01:14:54,440 --> 01:14:57,080
Vitalism is cool again in some
form.

1111
01:14:57,520 --> 01:15:00,960
And so we want to create a forum
where all of these alternatives

1112
01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:04,280
can come together with whoever
among the materialists and

1113
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:07,840
physicalists is willing to join
us to, you know, hold down the

1114
01:15:07,840 --> 01:15:14,360
Fort, as it were, against a lot
of challenge and opposition, But

1115
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:16,680
in a, you know, a friendly,
collaborative, collegiate way.

1116
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:22,120
We, we want to convene these
conversations to try to, you

1117
01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:26,400
know, create the the menu
basically for the 21st century

1118
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:30,680
of philosophical options.
Because it's very clear that at

1119
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:33,480
least the organizers, myself and
the other organizers of this

1120
01:15:33,480 --> 01:15:37,080
project feel that materialism is
on the back foot right now.

1121
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:41,720
And so we want to seize the
moment as it were, and bring to

1122
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:47,760
greater public awareness some of
the alternatives which I think

1123
01:15:47,760 --> 01:15:53,400
have actually a scientific
justification and philosophical

1124
01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:58,720
basis.
And we're not trying to tilt the

1125
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:01,400
scales towards one or one
position or the other of these

1126
01:16:01,400 --> 01:16:05,800
alternatives, but we really want
to do a just allow for an

1127
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:09,520
open-ended inquiry.
And so there will be conferences

1128
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:13,200
where we're even considering
sort of documentary that might

1129
01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:15,760
come out of this that tells the
story in a compelling way.

1130
01:16:16,440 --> 01:16:18,640
So we've got a little bit of
funding, we're looking for more,

1131
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:20,560
but it's, it's going to happen.
It's happening.

1132
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:23,480
So I hope you're going to be a
part of it as well.

1133
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:26,080
Yeah, I am.
I tell Peter if he needs any

1134
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:27,800
help at all, my own body
solution.

1135
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:29,960
We're here to help.
I'm here to I'm I'm, I'm

1136
01:16:29,960 --> 01:16:32,960
probably going to attend.
So looking forward to tonight

1137
01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:36,240
and I can't wait to to see this.
And I think the one important

1138
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:39,760
thing that you said there is, is
the alternatives, because it

1139
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:44,240
shows that there's a lack of a
personal attempt to try and put

1140
01:16:44,240 --> 01:16:48,760
your own view forward, which is
great because while you might be

1141
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:51,200
saying you're going anti
materialist, it's great that you

1142
01:16:51,200 --> 01:16:53,680
guys are going to all be
exploring different and diverse

1143
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:56,080
views about this, which I think
is pretty cool and always a

1144
01:16:56,080 --> 01:16:58,000
great sign.
So yeah, Matt, thanks.

1145
01:16:58,000 --> 01:16:59,840
This has been such a pleasure to
chat to you man.

1146
01:17:00,560 --> 01:17:03,360
Yeah, likewise, Kevin.
Great, Great questions.

1147
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:04,640
Glad we could finally make it
work.

1148
01:17:05,400 --> 01:17:06,800
Me too.
It's been it's been a long time

1149
01:17:06,800 --> 01:17:09,440
coming, but I'm hoping this
year's hopefully we see each

1150
01:17:09,440 --> 01:17:12,480
other soon in person and all you
guys because I think I've been

1151
01:17:12,480 --> 01:17:15,560
interacting with you guys for so
long and now I give shouted to

1152
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:18,280
you, I think it's time to meet
some of you guys in person.

1153
01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:20,200
I'm all the way in Cape Town, so
it's so far away.

1154
01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:22,040
It's your morning, it's my
night, so.

1155
01:17:22,480 --> 01:17:24,120
Yeah.
Well, the idea is, I think we're

1156
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:28,320
thinking we might have one
conference in California, one in

1157
01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:32,160
New York, and then one in your
hemisphere somewhere, if not in

1158
01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:36,320
Africa, at least in Europe.
Well, if, if the closer the

1159
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:38,280
better, but I'll, I'll, I'll
make my way either way.

1160
01:17:38,320 --> 01:17:41,160
So I'm looking forward to any
final words.

1161
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:43,600
Matt, anything you feel like you
need to say before we leave or

1162
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:45,240
you are you happy with
everything?

1163
01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:49,120
I would just say trust your
experience.

1164
01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:54,080
And, you know, so much of what
we've discussed is just about

1165
01:17:54,080 --> 01:17:58,400
this dilemma we found ourselves
in, where certain abstract forms

1166
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:02,960
of of modelling and and
reasoning have alienated us from

1167
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:07,440
our own direct to experience an
encounter with the universe.

1168
01:18:07,440 --> 01:18:10,040
And I think the way forward is
to go back to our direct

1169
01:18:10,480 --> 01:18:14,720
encounter with the world and
then build out from there more

1170
01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:19,680
carefully and less than a rush
to predict and control, but with

1171
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:22,400
rather the intention to come
into deeper relationship with

1172
01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:22,960
that world.