Mark Solms: How Do Dreams Relate To Consciousness? Why We Dream & The Felt Uncertainty Theory

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Hey, Mark.
How's it going?

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Fine.
Yourself.

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Great, man.
Great, Great.

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Great.
Great to have you back.

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Good to be back, although the
word round two makes it sound

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like a boxing match.
Yeah, no, it's just a it's just

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a way to keep track of the
conversations.

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Nothing serious.
Are you doing?

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Are you still in Boston, Mark?
No, I got back two days ago.

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OK.
How was the traffic?

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It was actually a slightly
nightmarish flight to Boston.

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I got diverted eventually to New
York and then it was shambles.

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But apart from that part of it,
I mean I ended up losing almost

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the whole day.
But once I did get there,

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scientifically, it was just
fantastic.

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I really enjoyed it and I saw
some of you did a presentation

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at Tufts.
Yeah, it seemed like a really

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great time.
I did a presentation of which I

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was happy with.
I was very happy with how it was

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received by some people who I
respect, you know, So it's good

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to get good feedback from minds
that you admire.

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And then there was also the
added.

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The dimension of Mike's lab.
I mean, I know about his work,

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but to actually visit his lab,
it's just quite extraordinary.

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I'm actually gonna touch on that
at some point because I wrote a

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note here about the
collaborations you guys are

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doing.
Friston feels 11.

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I mean, there's so much
happening here and it's so

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exciting from the outside.
I asked Mike about this about a

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week ago, and it just seems
incredible.

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He left me with a nice question
for you right at the very end.

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What is the meaning of life?
You know, I tweeted this to you

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Michael, so he just wants to
know.

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He thinks you actually might
provide a very valuable answer

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to this, cuz he thinks that your
background in neuropsychology

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will help enhance this answer.
So give us that.

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Well.
Actually, I'd forgotten that you

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tweeted that.
I wish I'd.

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I wish I'd prepared an answer,
because that's not the kind of

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question one likes to receive.
What is the meaning of life,

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Especially when you're expecting
a serious and and and and

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satisfying answer.
So what?

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What I would say first of all is
we must distinguish between the

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the the sort of.
The purpose of life and the

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meaning of life, the purpose of
life is very easy to discern.

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It's to keep on going, Being
alive, you know, it's to survive

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and to reproduce, I'm afraid, is
the purpose of life described

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biologically.
I mean, because of course, life

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is a biological thing.
And so when you speak of, well,

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what is it for?
It's just for keeping itself

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going.
That's all it's for.

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But that doesn't mean that's the
meaning of life, you know.

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So I I would draw a distinction
between us as biological

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organisms which are just
struggling to resist the second

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law of thermodynamics and and
and keep going or is resisted

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for as long as we can and then
we lose.

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You know that that I would like
to distinguish between that and

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the.
The the being of an Organism,

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you know, our subjective
existence.

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That's where I think the word
meaning is appropriate.

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It's like okay.
So I'm here.

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What?
What?

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What am I going to, you know,
what should I, what should I do

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with this other than just, you
know, carry on from a biological

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point of view, existing as a as
a living thing.

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What is the meaning of all of
this?

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And my.
My emphasis, of course, is on

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feelings.
As you know, I think

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subjectivity is fundamentally
constituted by feeling.

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We are feeling beings.
That's what being is to be to,

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to, to for the, you know that
phrase, there's an Organism that

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that there's something it is
like to be that Organism.

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It is a feeling Organism now.
Our feelings, again, as you

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know, because I've spoken to you
about this before, they are just

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the way in which we become aware
of our needs.

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So, so you could look at that
biologically.

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You could say, well, the reason
why, for example, the reason why

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pleasure is attached to
sexuality is because that's how

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our species reproduces.
And so, from a purely biological

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point of view, sex is
pleasurable because that's.

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That's got to do with that
purpose side of things, the

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meaning side of it.
I mean why do we actually have

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sex as subjects you know, as as
feeling beings.

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It's it's not because we're
trying to do our biological

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duty.
You know, not at all.

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We we we're in fact most of the
time that we have sex we are

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hoping not to reproduce.
It's a it's there really is.

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It's not a small distinction,
it's it's a very different

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thing.
What we're doing in terms of, in

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terms of what motivates us as
sentient beings, as subjects,

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has has to do with.
So it's for that reason.

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For me, it has been a very
important part of the meaning of

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my life is to try and
understand, you know, what is

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this, what is feeling, what,
what, what is it, what is it all

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about?
And to try and understand it.

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I think that that's been a very
worthwhile quest.

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To try to understand what is it
to be and what is feeling and

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the the.
I personally can't find a more a

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more worthwhile way of spending
my brief period of biological

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existence trying to understand
what what it is, what it is all

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about, and.
I'm I'm perfectly happy with the

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meaning of my life from from
that point of view.

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Now, I used sex as a as an
example because it's so easy to

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see the biological versus the
subjective, but it applies to

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all of our needs.
You know what we are, what we

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are living is.
It's like, let me take something

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even more prosaic.
You know, we don't we we eat

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chocolate and sweets and stuff,
you know, because they taste

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nice.
The the reason they taste nice

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is because they've got high
energy content.

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That's what makes them taste
nice.

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But we're not thinking, oh, you
know, what I really need to do

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is get high energy supplies.
What we're doing is saying I

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really like this, you know, so
the the other main thing I've

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done in my life is is is train
in and practice psychoanalysis.

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And that's really, you could
easily say that that it's not

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the only way of going about it,
but it is one of the it's a it's

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a like like the many Eastern
traditions where like meditative

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traditions and so on.
In fact I met a very senior

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Buddhist when I was in Boston
now.

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And so I spoke quite a bit,
interacted quite a bit with,

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with, with that way of
approaching the same task.

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Which is, you know, really
trying to properly confront What

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is it to be?
What is it to be mortal?

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What is?
What are these feelings really

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for?
What do I feel about them?

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What are, What are, what are my
values?

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What do I want to do in relation
to my felt needs?

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Which include needs to.
Not only survive and reproduce

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and eat, but but you know, to
have fun play.

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It's terribly important that to
recognize that has been a real

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discovery in my life and and to
recognize it as a, you know, as

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an experiencer of of the need to
play, the need to have fun, to

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wreck.
So the more I've understood

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about, you know, how minds work
and how my mind works.

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The the better I'm able to enjoy
in my mind and and recognize

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that it's inevitable that
there's no such thing as a

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conflict free existence.
You know, all of our different

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needs are they they need to be
balanced with each other and you

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kind of you become more sanguine
about it all and and allow

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yourself to appreciate you know
what what it is, what it is to,

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to and and for grounding
feelings has been a very

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important.
Not not only because of my own

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work in relation to the to the
neuroscience of feeling, but

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also in in relation to
psychoanalysis.

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Getting to know your own
feelings, face up to them, face

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up to your conflicts, ponder how
are you going to deal with them,

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recognize you never going to be
exempted from conflicts, and so

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on.
So I suppose what is that?

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There's a phrase the examined
life is something.

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I mean, life is not worth
living.

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Yeah.
And and also the old, you know,

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know thyself, I think that's the
meaning of the exactly that's,

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that's that is the that is the
meaning that you end up.

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That I end up realizing that's
the best you can do with with

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life, is to is to is to wonder
at it.

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To ponder it, to try to
understand it, to reflect upon

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it.
To be fully alive in the sense

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of being alive.
You know, not, not not

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biological life, but but
experiential life.

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And to to to to to ponder it, to
reflect on it, to study it, to

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to wonder at it, to appreciate
it.

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I think I think we're similar in
that case.

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And this podcast obviously
embodies that, that curiosity,

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that that sort of this quest for
us to try and conquer this mind.

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And when I spoke to Mike, this,
that question came at the very

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end.
And I remember it's because

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apparently Mike gets a lot of
emails lately regarding the

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meaning of life.
And he and he's not a

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psychologist, so he doesn't have
this background.

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He's not a philosopher.
So for him, he gets, he gets

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caught in between a rock and a
hard place because he's

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obviously not an expert in those
fields.

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So he said he'd rather just
shift that onto.

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You.
I'm not surprised he gets emails

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like that because his work, I
mean, it really is pretty

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fundamental in terms of what?
What is an Organism and and and

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what is?
What is life, right at the most

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basic level of single cells and
so on.

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It's fantastically interesting,
wouldn't it?

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It's pretty cool.
And I know that you guys, you

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were in Boston, you went, you
visited Mike's lab first.

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I don't know if for all of those
curious, do you wanna tell us

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about that experience?
It was an extraordinary

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experience.
I know about his work, but.

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Knowing about something and
experiencing it is, you know, or

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two different things and that's
of your work.

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Pretty much.
You actually got to feel it.

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Yeah, so the main species that
he's studying, he studies

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various different organisms.
But these little worms that are

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the first thing that's
astonishing about them.

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And to actually encounter one
such worm is that they're

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immortal.
I mean, literally immortal.

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You know, they've been around
for millions and millions of

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years.
They don't die, they just

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subdivide and so.
There's no mixing of genomes.

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You know it's the same genome
carrying on and on and on and

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on.
And so in some very real sense,

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you know you're looking at a
many millions of years old

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creature and what's more it's
looking back at you.

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It's got these big eyes.
So there's this encounter with

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with with an immortal being.
They they then the the fact that

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they subdivide.
You know is what in what led

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Mike to to study the mechanisms
of morphogenesis.

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How does an Organism know what
it's meant to become, you know,

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and how, at the most fundamental
mechanistic level, does that

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happen?
Then you can chop these

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creatures in half and the the
head grows a tail and the tail

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grows a head.
And so you know, having studied

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what those mechanisms are, he
started to fiddle about with

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them.
Because if you really do

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understand the mechanism, in
fact the one way in which you

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can convince yourself and your
colleagues that you do

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understand the mechanism is to
is to make an intervention in it

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and predict what the
consequences will be.

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And if you can predictably
control that mechanism, then you

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really do understand it.
And so as you no doubt know, he

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made a 2 headed worm you know
by.

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By manipulating the these
bioelectrical fields that are

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what guide the morphogenesis.
So I also met A2 headed worm

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which was, which was something
to behold, you know, I mean it's

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just really is extraordinary and
and then when those worms

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subdivide, they subdivide into
two headed worms.

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So he sort of created a new
species.

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Yeah, I think.
I think those are the ones he

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called Xenobots.
Hey, I'm not sure if.

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00:13:56,210 --> 00:13:59,010
That is does he know?
But so yeah, it's so he, they're

228
00:13:59,010 --> 00:14:00,730
various.
You know, like he takes a

229
00:14:00,730 --> 00:14:05,450
tadpole and shoots where its
eyes going to be and they end up

230
00:14:05,450 --> 00:14:10,250
with this frog that sees out of
its arms and but I mean all

231
00:14:10,250 --> 00:14:16,290
these things could be they they
they could be perceived as as

232
00:14:16,290 --> 00:14:20,490
ghoulish or even as in, you
know, in all sorts of ways

233
00:14:20,490 --> 00:14:22,970
inappropriate.
So it's important to remember.

234
00:14:23,470 --> 00:14:26,590
That ultimately, what it's all
about is, you know, to what

235
00:14:26,590 --> 00:14:30,350
extent can we translate this
basic knowledge from the lab to

236
00:14:30,350 --> 00:14:32,750
the clinic?
And it has.

237
00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:37,670
It has profound potential
implications for how we treat

238
00:14:37,670 --> 00:14:43,390
amputees and how we deal with
the situations where currently

239
00:14:43,390 --> 00:14:47,390
one has to do organ transplants,
the possibility of being able to

240
00:14:47,390 --> 00:14:51,150
regenerate a diseased organ
rather than to transplant it.

241
00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,000
And so on.
I mean the possibilities are

242
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,400
amazing.
But then in terms of you said

243
00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:03,480
what are we doing in terms of
collaborations, the main

244
00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,440
overlap, it's the main overlap
because actually there are many

245
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:14,000
ways in which our interests and
research intersect, but the main

246
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:20,300
overlap is I believe.
And there's a long story that

247
00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:22,340
attaches to.
That said, I've just come to the

248
00:15:22,340 --> 00:15:26,700
conclusion, you know, I believe
for for lots of very good

249
00:15:26,780 --> 00:15:31,540
scientific reasons, that the
fundamental form of

250
00:15:31,540 --> 00:15:36,860
consciousness is feeling and
feelings enable us to know how

251
00:15:36,860 --> 00:15:39,380
well or badly we're doing in
terms of.

252
00:15:39,750 --> 00:15:43,950
Remaining within our viable
bounds, so moving out of

253
00:15:43,950 --> 00:15:48,510
homeostasis feels bad, moving
back towards homeostasis feels

254
00:15:48,510 --> 00:15:52,470
good.
And the the what this does

255
00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:57,230
that's that's that's an
adaptation beyond mere

256
00:15:57,230 --> 00:16:00,430
homeostasis because many
homeostatic mechanisms are

257
00:16:00,430 --> 00:16:03,750
purely autonomic.
There's no feeling involved like

258
00:16:04,150 --> 00:16:05,950
blood pressure, regulation and
so on.

259
00:16:07,260 --> 00:16:10,940
By being able to feel
homeostasis, feel how well or

260
00:16:10,940 --> 00:16:15,140
badly you're doing in terms of
your attempts to to to maintain

261
00:16:15,140 --> 00:16:19,580
your biological bounds enables
you to change your mind.

262
00:16:20,580 --> 00:16:23,780
This is not working.
So before it's too late, you,

263
00:16:23,860 --> 00:16:29,180
you, you, you, you alter your,
your, your behavior, you change

264
00:16:29,180 --> 00:16:34,270
your policy and.
So this why that's so important

265
00:16:34,270 --> 00:16:37,950
is it enables the creature to
survive in an uncertain,

266
00:16:37,950 --> 00:16:44,230
unpredicted environment so you
can come up with novel solutions

267
00:16:44,230 --> 00:16:47,710
to life's problems by feeling
your way through the problem

268
00:16:47,710 --> 00:16:50,790
you're not.
You're not limited to to a

269
00:16:50,790 --> 00:16:55,070
single stereotyped response when
you find yourself in a situation

270
00:16:55,070 --> 00:16:56,990
for which you do not have an
inmate.

271
00:16:59,380 --> 00:17:03,020
Phylogenetically given response,
you can feel your way through

272
00:17:03,020 --> 00:17:05,819
the situation and come up with a
novel response.

273
00:17:06,060 --> 00:17:09,099
That is what I've just
described, is the very basis of

274
00:17:09,099 --> 00:17:12,099
voluntary behavior, you know,
which is no small thing.

275
00:17:12,339 --> 00:17:15,460
And then we learn from from the
from the experience.

276
00:17:15,460 --> 00:17:20,500
And so we can, we can adapt to
unpredicted situations and God

277
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:21,980
knows there are many of those in
life.

278
00:17:22,420 --> 00:17:25,220
We can, we can do them during
our own onto genetic

279
00:17:25,220 --> 00:17:28,210
development.
Now the crucial thing is that

280
00:17:28,650 --> 00:17:35,410
with Mike fiddling about with
these creatures, I mean what the

281
00:17:35,410 --> 00:17:38,930
problem of what do you do when
you've got 2 heads is a novel

282
00:17:38,930 --> 00:17:41,520
problem.
It's it's not something that

283
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,320
that species was prepared for by
evolution.

284
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,560
What happens if you move the eye
to an unexpected location?

285
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,520
You know that's this is not
something for which there is any

286
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:58,560
possibility of there being an an
automatic in inborn solution.

287
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:05,920
And so I'm very interested in in
what way is the the, the, the

288
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:11,450
sorts of things that these.
Very much simpler creatures than

289
00:18:11,450 --> 00:18:13,370
ourselves.
That the way that they're

290
00:18:13,370 --> 00:18:18,410
solving these novel problems
raises questions of, you know,

291
00:18:18,410 --> 00:18:23,170
how far down does feeling go?
Is it is, is a creature like

292
00:18:23,170 --> 00:18:25,970
this worm feeling its way
through a problem?

293
00:18:26,290 --> 00:18:30,010
Because if it is, you know, then
wow, I mean, I thought.

294
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:36,360
That I had set a cut cut among
the pigeons when I told my

295
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:40,360
colleagues I don't believe that
cortex is the the the organ of

296
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:42,320
consciousness.
I think that you know the the

297
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:46,800
reticulate activating system and
peri aqueductal Gray and it is

298
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,800
structures that we share with
all vertebrates.

299
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:56,040
So for example with fishes.
You know, I thought this was

300
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,840
radical, but if it goes down
even more than that, you know,

301
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,020
then.
The implications are just, you

302
00:19:03,020 --> 00:19:08,420
know, gigantic.
So that's that's where my work

303
00:19:08,420 --> 00:19:13,940
overlaps with with Mike's and
that's what the the

304
00:19:13,940 --> 00:19:17,140
collaborations and there's also
Chris Fields, I don't know if

305
00:19:17,140 --> 00:19:18,420
you know him.
Yeah.

306
00:19:18,940 --> 00:19:24,300
And Richard Watson, you know.
So we've all been, in fact Mike

307
00:19:24,300 --> 00:19:28,710
is a great.
He gets us.

308
00:19:28,870 --> 00:19:33,510
He gets the right people.
Together, yes, it seems like I'm

309
00:19:33,590 --> 00:19:37,190
an elaboration.
Yeah, he I asked him for a name.

310
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:39,950
If you could just give me like a
nice name of this group, he

311
00:19:39,950 --> 00:19:41,590
said.
He called it the field of

312
00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:44,710
diverse intelligence.
Are you happy with that?

313
00:19:47,910 --> 00:19:50,470
I can't remember what he gave
them.

314
00:19:50,710 --> 00:19:52,670
His lab was called something
like.

315
00:19:53,660 --> 00:19:56,580
The Center for possible selves
or something like that.

316
00:19:57,380 --> 00:19:59,060
You know it's very creative in
that regard.

317
00:19:59,060 --> 00:20:01,660
But I was just it's so
fascinating to see all these

318
00:20:01,660 --> 00:20:03,940
great minds come together.
Cuz then I told him it's almost

319
00:20:03,940 --> 00:20:07,260
like The Avengers of mind
getting together trying to solve

320
00:20:07,260 --> 00:20:08,580
the hard problem.
It's pretty cool.

321
00:20:09,180 --> 00:20:11,380
So from our perspective we just
wanna say thanks.

322
00:20:13,020 --> 00:20:15,240
Tell me.
Sorry, continue.

323
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,560
I think that we are living
through a sort of a golden age,

324
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:25,360
if not of neuroscience as a
whole, certainly consciousness

325
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:29,720
studies.
I think we really are at a very

326
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:34,000
interesting and important time
in the history of that field.

327
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,000
Yeah.
It seems to be just escalating

328
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,320
so much more and so much faster
that hopefully we're around to

329
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,170
see.
What happens next?

330
00:20:43,490 --> 00:20:45,570
It's kind of, it's kind of
disappointing knowing that we're

331
00:20:45,770 --> 00:20:49,050
we're at this forefront and you
never know if you're just going

332
00:20:49,050 --> 00:20:50,410
to be alive long enough to see
it.

333
00:20:51,010 --> 00:20:53,410
Do you ever get that sort of
anticipation anxiety?

334
00:20:54,490 --> 00:20:59,130
Well, it's not the way I
experienced that very issue that

335
00:20:59,130 --> 00:21:03,170
you're discussing.
It's more from the other end.

336
00:21:03,170 --> 00:21:10,020
The way I experience it, it is
that when you go against the

337
00:21:10,020 --> 00:21:15,540
grain, when you say something
like I just said now, you know,

338
00:21:15,540 --> 00:21:20,500
I believe that a child who's got
no cortex, that this is a

339
00:21:20,540 --> 00:21:23,620
conscious being, that there is
something it's like to be such a

340
00:21:23,620 --> 00:21:30,660
child, it's it really doesn't
win you a universal approval.

341
00:21:30,940 --> 00:21:35,860
You know, people start saying,
you know, if you go against the

342
00:21:35,860 --> 00:21:39,620
compact majority view in a
science, this your science, your

343
00:21:39,620 --> 00:21:44,860
science defends itself.
And So what I'm leading up to

344
00:21:44,860 --> 00:21:51,020
saying is that I have found more
courage than I might otherwise

345
00:21:51,020 --> 00:21:56,380
have have had.
I'm willing to take risks and to

346
00:21:56,380 --> 00:22:01,920
say, well, you know, I know that
this is going to put many noses

347
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,320
out of joint.
I know many people are going to

348
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:09,480
think I'm a Nutter, You know
that I've lost my way or

349
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,720
whatever.
And I'm.

350
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,920
I'm less anxious about that than
I otherwise would have been.

351
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,160
Because I know, you know, you
only live once and as you can

352
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,960
see, I'm not a kid, you know, So
I'm just going to throw

353
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,520
everything I have at it and try
and try and make as much

354
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:31,680
progress as I can regardless of
the not regardless of all

355
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,280
consequences, because I am very
concerned about the ethical

356
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,480
consequences of some of the
issues we're dealing with.

357
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,920
So it's not, it's not, I don't
care about any of the

358
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,240
consequences.
It's but I don't care about the

359
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,120
consequences for my reputation.
That's what I mean.

360
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,520
Yeah, so you've lost that worry
about the trivial stuff.

361
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,040
You're more focused on the
bigger picture.

362
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,600
Yeah.
Well, I it's because I realize

363
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,200
it is the bigger picture.
You know, there, there, there's,

364
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:05,280
there's times in my life,
earlier in my life, when I have

365
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:11,240
been very thrown by the fact
that I mean just to take a very

366
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:20,440
earlier in my career when I made
some discoveries that made me

367
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,640
realize that what my entire
field believed about the brain

368
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:29,000
mechanism of dreaming was wrong.
You know that that that dreams

369
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,600
are not generated by the part of
the brain that generates REM

370
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,800
sleep, that REM sleep and dreams
are not the same thing.

371
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,880
You know it.
It was really a hell of a hell

372
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,930
of a thing.
And to have all of your seniors,

373
00:23:45,410 --> 00:23:54,770
all of the great authorities in
the field, all just being very

374
00:23:54,770 --> 00:24:00,130
hostile because you were, you're
spoiling the party.

375
00:24:00,530 --> 00:24:03,070
We're.
You're going against the status

376
00:24:03,070 --> 00:24:04,150
quo.
Nobody likes that.

377
00:24:04,350 --> 00:24:07,070
Nobody likes that complete.
But I have a note on that.

378
00:24:07,070 --> 00:24:09,030
So the exact point you're
talking about it.

379
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:11,670
I've written down some notes, so
I think we'll touch on that

380
00:24:11,670 --> 00:24:12,790
soon.
Let's start at the beginning,

381
00:24:12,870 --> 00:24:14,750
Mark.
So the whole focus of this

382
00:24:14,750 --> 00:24:17,270
conversation for everyone
watching or listening is on

383
00:24:17,270 --> 00:24:19,070
dreams and the hard problem of
consciousness.

384
00:24:19,070 --> 00:24:21,230
It's a paper.
I'll put a link in the

385
00:24:21,230 --> 00:24:24,360
description and very.
Great paper.

386
00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:27,080
As always, read many of your
papers in the past.

387
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,920
You even know that I used one of
your papers and Tristan for my

388
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:31,560
own dissertation back when I was
writing it.

389
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,160
So always a pleasure to read
your work, Mark.

390
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:36,360
And yeah, I'm looking forward to
this.

391
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:41,160
First, you wanna start with how
dreams can assist us with this

392
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,080
approach to the hard problem of
consciousness.

393
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,000
Well, look, I have a great many
things to say about dreams in

394
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:55,680
general, but I'm, I'm taking
your question in the narrow way

395
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,840
that I that I think I heard it.
You're saying?

396
00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:01,440
I think wait before you do that,
because I see my next question

397
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,640
is probably will address what
you want to tell me.

398
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:07,400
We spent 20% of all of our sleep
dreaming.

399
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,320
Tell me why.
Well, that's the interesting

400
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:12,720
thing.
It's an embarrassment to

401
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:18,220
science.
Nobody knows why the REM sleep

402
00:25:18,220 --> 00:25:23,100
was discovered in the early
1950s and it's high correlation

403
00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:28,580
with dreams, which is a sort of
90% correlation, you know, was

404
00:25:28,580 --> 00:25:35,060
discovered in the mid 1950s too.
And from then onwards, they were

405
00:25:35,060 --> 00:25:37,500
taken to be one and the same
thing.

406
00:25:37,940 --> 00:25:42,630
Dreaming was construed as the
subjective experience of REM

407
00:25:42,630 --> 00:25:45,470
sleep.
REM sleep was construed as the

408
00:25:45,710 --> 00:25:51,230
objective physiological
manifestation of the dream.

409
00:25:51,910 --> 00:25:57,310
So everything that we learned in
the subsequent decades about

410
00:25:57,350 --> 00:26:01,610
what REM sleep is for, because
of course, it's a hell of a lot

411
00:26:01,610 --> 00:26:05,610
easier to study the mechanisms
of something objective than of

412
00:26:05,610 --> 00:26:08,530
something subjective.
So once that correlation had

413
00:26:08,530 --> 00:26:15,050
been established, the dreams
were thrown out as like slippery

414
00:26:15,050 --> 00:26:19,770
fish, that they were discarded
and we and we clung to this much

415
00:26:19,770 --> 00:26:24,050
more tractable problem of what
is REM sleep, What does it do?

416
00:26:25,450 --> 00:26:29,250
And that's those are easy
problems, you know, because you

417
00:26:29,250 --> 00:26:31,410
can manipulate it.
It's very easy.

418
00:26:32,010 --> 00:26:39,970
And we were therefore, for
decades we were studying the

419
00:26:39,970 --> 00:26:43,530
biological function of REM
sleep, on the assumption that in

420
00:26:43,690 --> 00:26:46,850
so doing we were studying the
biological function of dreams.

421
00:26:47,090 --> 00:26:49,850
But they are doubly dissociable
phenomena.

422
00:26:50,210 --> 00:26:54,410
You can have dreams without REM
sleep, not only outside of REM

423
00:26:54,410 --> 00:26:56,890
sleep, but you can have dreams
if you are incapable of

424
00:26:56,890 --> 00:27:00,630
generating REM sleep due to
brain lesion, and conversely,

425
00:27:00,790 --> 00:27:02,830
you can have REM sleep without
any dreams.

426
00:27:02,830 --> 00:27:05,390
If you have a lesion to the part
of the brain that generates

427
00:27:05,390 --> 00:27:09,110
dreams, REM is preserved.
Damage to the part of the brain

428
00:27:09,110 --> 00:27:12,270
that generates REM dreams are
preserved, so they are just

429
00:27:12,350 --> 00:27:15,750
simply not the same thing.
Therefore, everything that we

430
00:27:15,750 --> 00:27:18,830
learned about the biological
function of REM sleep thinking

431
00:27:18,830 --> 00:27:22,270
that we were learning about the
biological function of dreams is

432
00:27:23,190 --> 00:27:26,700
not wasted work, because we
learned a lot about the

433
00:27:26,700 --> 00:27:28,380
biological function of REM
sleep.

434
00:27:28,740 --> 00:27:31,900
But it's wasted from the point
of view of what did it teach us

435
00:27:31,900 --> 00:27:34,820
about dreams that taught us next
to nothing about the function of

436
00:27:34,820 --> 00:27:40,580
dreams.
So I'll tell you what it Not

437
00:27:40,580 --> 00:27:46,100
only in recent years have have I
turned my attention to that

438
00:27:46,100 --> 00:27:49,740
question and used appropriate
methods because I'm not

439
00:27:49,740 --> 00:27:51,820
conflating those two things with
each other.

440
00:27:52,780 --> 00:28:01,560
I did a pilot study just before
COVID and then I was of course

441
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,680
unable to conclude the study
because of COVID.

442
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,080
So I've only now, couple of
years later, started the bigger

443
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,760
study.
So I can only tell you what we

444
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:20,000
found so far in our pilot study.
In order for me to tell you

445
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,480
that, I need to just take a step
backwards and tell you that

446
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,560
there are two parts of the brain
which are essential for

447
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,840
dreaming.
I mean, of course the whole

448
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,200
brain in the way is essential,
but the two parts that are

449
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,880
really the crucial mechanisms,
the one which is not surprising,

450
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:41,440
is our our perceptual cortex,
the posterior cortex, especially

451
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,080
visual cortex.
It's not surprising because what

452
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,160
are dreams if not perceptual
phenomena, and especially visual

453
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,040
perceptual phenomena if those?
If that cortical region is

454
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,350
damaged, you can't dream because
you can't generate the imagery.

455
00:28:55,350 --> 00:28:58,990
That's neat that the actual the
actual hallucination can't be

456
00:28:58,990 --> 00:29:03,150
generated.
But the other part is much more

457
00:29:03,150 --> 00:29:06,270
interesting.
It's called the mesocortical

458
00:29:06,270 --> 00:29:13,190
mesolimbic dopamine circuit and
this is a powerful positive

459
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:16,270
motivational Circuit of the
mammal brain.

460
00:29:17,430 --> 00:29:20,710
If you stimulate that circuit
electrically or chemically, it

461
00:29:20,710 --> 00:29:28,050
produces the most animated
exploratory, reward seeking

462
00:29:28,050 --> 00:29:34,330
behaviors in in, in the animal.
Now that circuit is essential

463
00:29:34,330 --> 00:29:37,490
for dreams.
If that's damaged, you also

464
00:29:37,490 --> 00:29:42,130
can't dream and so you know that
raises all sorts of interesting

465
00:29:42,130 --> 00:29:45,650
questions.
But the the, the, the one that I

466
00:29:45,650 --> 00:29:50,610
was interested in was how on
earth in the middle of sleep

467
00:29:51,530 --> 00:29:56,090
with this, as I said, it
generates the most powerful

468
00:29:56,090 --> 00:30:01,130
exploratory behaviors.
When you look at the dreaming

469
00:30:01,130 --> 00:30:03,730
brain and you see that's
switched on, you know, like a

470
00:30:03,730 --> 00:30:06,970
Christmas tree, you think how on
earth does this thing just lie

471
00:30:06,970 --> 00:30:10,850
there sleeping, You know, it
seems like an absolute paradox.

472
00:30:11,330 --> 00:30:17,000
So the the hypothesis was that
the hallucinated dream, it's a

473
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,080
kind of virtual, exploratory and
other kinds of emotional

474
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,680
motivated behavior that that
happens instead of real

475
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,400
behavior.
So the way that the animal

476
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,320
executes its motive.
And when I say animal, of course

477
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:41,060
I'm including ourselves that
where this motivational urge or

478
00:30:41,060 --> 00:30:44,820
surge goes to is into this
imagined activity, this

479
00:30:44,820 --> 00:30:48,780
hallucinated virtual behavior of
the dream.

480
00:30:49,140 --> 00:30:53,300
Which means that if you can't
dream due to damage to the

481
00:30:53,300 --> 00:30:57,700
posterior cortex, if you can't
generate the imagery, then you

482
00:30:57,700 --> 00:31:03,940
should you should wake up
because the dream is there to to

483
00:31:04,260 --> 00:31:08,730
enable you to continue sleeping.
That was the hypothesis, and

484
00:31:08,730 --> 00:31:11,730
it's a lovely hypothesis because
it's entirely counterintuitive.

485
00:31:12,090 --> 00:31:14,450
Most people would think if you
can't dream, you'll sleep

486
00:31:14,450 --> 00:31:17,530
better.
But on this hypothesis, if you

487
00:31:17,530 --> 00:31:21,370
can't dream, you will, your
sleep will be your sleep will be

488
00:31:21,370 --> 00:31:24,450
disturbed.
And so in our pilot study, what

489
00:31:24,450 --> 00:31:30,330
we found was that on steroids.
You know you have never seen

490
00:31:30,330 --> 00:31:35,450
such terrible sleep as you get
in these patients who can't

491
00:31:35,450 --> 00:31:39,130
dream due to due to posterior
cortical damage.

492
00:31:40,650 --> 00:31:44,370
They have sleep onset insomnia,
sleep maintenance insomnia.

493
00:31:44,770 --> 00:31:51,330
They have, they have massively
more awakenings and and and sort

494
00:31:51,330 --> 00:31:54,570
of micro awakenings, what we
call arousals and micro

495
00:31:54,570 --> 00:31:57,290
arousals.
And the sleep efficiency index

496
00:31:57,290 --> 00:32:00,770
is off the charts different,
total sleep time off the charts

497
00:32:00,770 --> 00:32:05,640
different.
So the one thing that that that

498
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,800
although it's only a pilot study
so far but the results were so

499
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,600
clear Cutter I'm prepared to say
it publicly.

500
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,040
You know, the one thing that I
believe we can say empirically,

501
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:23,000
we we have, we have demonstrated
is that whatever else dreams do,

502
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:31,090
they enable us to stay asleep in
the in the face of of arousals

503
00:32:31,090 --> 00:32:34,130
of things that would otherwise,
that would otherwise arouse us.

504
00:32:34,490 --> 00:32:38,330
Let's not forget, REM sleep is
itself an arousal state.

505
00:32:38,330 --> 00:32:42,410
You know, it's, it's, it's when
it was first discovered, it was

506
00:32:42,410 --> 00:32:45,930
called paradoxical sleep.
That was how come you're able to

507
00:32:45,930 --> 00:32:48,010
stay asleep when your brain is
so aroused?

508
00:32:48,370 --> 00:32:54,330
So I'm saying that whatever else
dreams do, they are guardians of

509
00:32:54,330 --> 00:32:58,890
sleep.
They enable us to not have to

510
00:32:58,890 --> 00:33:07,650
wake up when we are motivated to
act, to do something on the

511
00:33:07,650 --> 00:33:12,690
basis of arousals, just our
homeostatic deviations.

512
00:33:12,690 --> 00:33:15,210
So on the basis of homeostatic
deviations.

513
00:33:15,850 --> 00:33:21,730
And Mark, in terms of energy
consumption, is this worth it?

514
00:33:21,770 --> 00:33:24,610
Is this constant need to
experience?

515
00:33:25,220 --> 00:33:29,940
With the trade off, well,
remember it's in a sense it's

516
00:33:29,940 --> 00:33:35,460
the opposite of the the question
is, you know, can we afford not

517
00:33:35,460 --> 00:33:38,660
to sleep?
So, you know, for the whole

518
00:33:38,660 --> 00:33:42,820
restitutive function of sleep,
you can't do without that.

519
00:33:42,860 --> 00:33:44,580
It does.
There's a hell of a lot of

520
00:33:44,580 --> 00:33:49,660
repair work and and and
housekeeping that is done by the

521
00:33:49,660 --> 00:33:54,760
body and the brain and including
in when I say housekeeping,

522
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,280
including memory consolidation
processes, you know how do you

523
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,880
process what you've learned
during the during the day.

524
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,240
There's a lot of very important
work that is done by the body

525
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:08,840
and the brain while you're
asleep.

526
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:15,130
And if you if you don't give
yourself enough of that, you're

527
00:34:15,130 --> 00:34:17,570
a doctor, you know how bad it is
to not sleep.

528
00:34:18,090 --> 00:34:22,650
It's a very serious thing to be
deprived of sleep for your

529
00:34:22,650 --> 00:34:25,449
health.
So it's it's can we afford not

530
00:34:25,449 --> 00:34:31,610
to sleep and and the energies,
the energy, the work that needs

531
00:34:31,610 --> 00:34:36,010
to be done in order to maintain
sleep is, is well worth the

532
00:34:36,050 --> 00:34:39,210
expenditure.
See, it's almost intuitive when

533
00:34:39,210 --> 00:34:43,139
you think about it, I mean.
We the idea of this, I mean

534
00:34:43,139 --> 00:34:46,340
because you when you think about
the average human, we don't

535
00:34:46,340 --> 00:34:50,260
really want to not experience.
It's almost like there's this

536
00:34:50,260 --> 00:34:53,940
constant need to continue to
have a continuous spectrum of

537
00:34:53,940 --> 00:34:55,940
experience.
That's why a lot of people fear

538
00:34:55,940 --> 00:34:59,100
going under anesthesia.
I mean it's they know there's

539
00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:03,060
almost a switching off of of
this shutdown of the whole human

540
00:35:03,060 --> 00:35:05,460
experience.
Do you feel like that makes

541
00:35:05,460 --> 00:35:11,710
sense?
Ends with the yeah, I I think

542
00:35:11,710 --> 00:35:14,190
that.
Or is it different somehow?

543
00:35:14,870 --> 00:35:17,710
No, no, it's.
I think that what you're saying

544
00:35:17,710 --> 00:35:22,990
is, is, is, is true.
But there are also things which

545
00:35:22,990 --> 00:35:29,110
contradict it, And I will, I
will give you, I think there are

546
00:35:29,110 --> 00:35:31,270
three things I need to say about
that.

547
00:35:31,950 --> 00:35:35,470
The one is the opposite of what
you said, which is that we want

548
00:35:35,470 --> 00:35:37,630
to, we want to retain
homeostasis.

549
00:35:38,590 --> 00:35:43,590
So, so moving out of homeostasis
generates negative feelings.

550
00:35:43,910 --> 00:35:49,470
You know, it's like air hunger
or or sleepiness or pain or

551
00:35:49,470 --> 00:35:52,150
whatever.
These are all deviations from

552
00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:58,350
homeostasis and pleasurable
feelings are returns towards

553
00:35:58,350 --> 00:36:01,350
homeostasis.
But when you're in homeostasis,

554
00:36:01,350 --> 00:36:03,790
you feel nothing.
It's association.

555
00:36:03,790 --> 00:36:06,030
So you know I'm hungry.
That's bad.

556
00:36:06,570 --> 00:36:08,410
I eat.
That's good until I've had

557
00:36:08,410 --> 00:36:11,330
enough.
And then you know, it's it's

558
00:36:11,410 --> 00:36:13,850
it's over.
Same with sleep, same with

559
00:36:13,850 --> 00:36:18,170
thirst, same with everything.
So that's the first thing I

560
00:36:18,170 --> 00:36:21,890
wanted to say is that in terms
of homeostasis, for the most

561
00:36:21,890 --> 00:36:27,290
part, actually what we're trying
to do is get out of the zone of

562
00:36:27,290 --> 00:36:31,130
feeling and into the zone of
automaticity into the zone of

563
00:36:31,130 --> 00:36:33,530
satiation.
Now.

564
00:36:33,930 --> 00:36:38,980
Actually feel satiated?
Well, you feel association,

565
00:36:39,020 --> 00:36:42,700
association as you come to the
end of the of the return to

566
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:44,900
homeostasis.
But then that particular

567
00:36:44,900 --> 00:36:48,060
homeostasis off the radar, it's,
you know, you're not busy

568
00:36:48,060 --> 00:36:52,820
thinking, I'm not hungry, I'm
not thirsty, I'm not sexually

569
00:36:52,820 --> 00:36:54,780
aroused.
I'm, you know, I'm not sleepy.

570
00:36:55,020 --> 00:36:56,500
It's just not there.
It's not.

571
00:36:56,540 --> 00:36:58,740
It's not, it's not, it's not on
the agenda.

572
00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:03,140
You're feeling those things
which are going well or badly,

573
00:37:04,620 --> 00:37:11,180
but once you are at the
destination of those regulatory

574
00:37:11,180 --> 00:37:16,100
mechanisms, then they no longer
are registered in consciousness.

575
00:37:16,460 --> 00:37:19,300
So that, as I said, that first
thing I've said of three things,

576
00:37:19,300 --> 00:37:21,700
I'm going to say that that's the
opposite of what you were

577
00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:24,700
saying.
However, here's the second

578
00:37:24,700 --> 00:37:28,020
thing.
One of those homeostats is the

579
00:37:28,020 --> 00:37:31,100
very one I was talking about
when I said this mesocortical

580
00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:35,460
mesolympic dopamine system that
has to do with the seeking Dr.

581
00:37:35,460 --> 00:37:40,460
the exploratory foraging Dr.
What, what some people call the

582
00:37:40,460 --> 00:37:46,700
epistemophilic Dr. and and how
that homeostat works is, is, is

583
00:37:47,100 --> 00:37:53,500
quite different from the others.
It's it's set point is is is I

584
00:37:53,500 --> 00:37:57,020
am engaging with novelty.
I'm engaging with what I don't

585
00:37:57,020 --> 00:37:58,580
know.
I'm engaging with what is

586
00:37:58,580 --> 00:38:06,020
uncertain, and if that sounds
paradoxical, it's not.

587
00:38:06,020 --> 00:38:11,320
It's because uncertainty is
dangerous, you know, so.

588
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,760
So if if you have the
opportunity to engage

589
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,640
proactively with uncertainty
now, then you'll have less

590
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,680
uncertainty later.
So what you're doing is actually

591
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,560
building a better predictive
model of the world.

592
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,720
You're engaging with the world
and better understanding how it

593
00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:33,080
works, which in the long run it
enables you to better survive in

594
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,630
that world.
So that the the, the thing that

595
00:38:36,630 --> 00:38:39,750
you just spoke of when you said
don't we always want to keep on.

596
00:38:40,710 --> 00:38:43,390
That's fundamentally driven by
this.

597
00:38:43,510 --> 00:38:46,470
It's not only seeking, but it's
fundamentally driven by the

598
00:38:46,470 --> 00:38:50,110
seeking, the the the seeking
homeostat.

599
00:38:51,590 --> 00:38:55,630
And then the third thing I
wanted to say is that from all

600
00:38:55,670 --> 00:39:01,120
of this voluntary behavior of us
engaging with the with the world

601
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:07,440
trying to find how do I get into
back to where I need to be.

602
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,360
We learn from that experience.
The conscious experience is the

603
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,080
feeling your way through the
problem.

604
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,800
Then you lay down new
predictions based on what what

605
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:22,920
you learnt from that experience.
And then the the, the biological

606
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:27,410
ideal is to have predictions
which are so reliable that you

607
00:39:27,410 --> 00:39:30,290
don't have to feel your way
through the problem again.

608
00:39:30,490 --> 00:39:34,250
So that's again a trend towards
zombiedom that in fact what we

609
00:39:34,250 --> 00:39:38,370
want is to have predictions that
are so reliable that we that we

610
00:39:38,370 --> 00:39:41,730
don't, that they don't need
reconsolidation.

611
00:39:42,210 --> 00:39:45,010
And so this is what we call non
declarative memory.

612
00:39:45,010 --> 00:39:48,290
You know these these these
things that we just know how to

613
00:39:48,290 --> 00:39:52,050
do, like how to drive a car.
You don't think, well, what you

614
00:39:52,050 --> 00:39:54,530
know, how does this work?
You just know how to do it, how

615
00:39:54,530 --> 00:40:01,820
to ride a bike, like how to
walk, how to play the piano,

616
00:40:01,820 --> 00:40:04,460
whatever.
These skills that we acquire

617
00:40:04,940 --> 00:40:07,980
that become automatized.
And that is actually a good

618
00:40:07,980 --> 00:40:10,660
thing.
So again, in those situations, I

619
00:40:10,660 --> 00:40:14,100
mean, like, I don't know if you
play any musical instrument or

620
00:40:14,580 --> 00:40:17,790
like if you play tennis.
Thinking about your stroke is a

621
00:40:17,790 --> 00:40:23,550
very bad thing to do.
It must just flow, and so in

622
00:40:23,550 --> 00:40:26,710
that sense too, although we
don't feel it that way.

623
00:40:27,110 --> 00:40:31,550
Actually, unconscious automatic
processes are better than

624
00:40:31,550 --> 00:40:37,390
conscious, deliberative ones
when it comes to learning from

625
00:40:37,390 --> 00:40:40,070
experience about how to meet
your needs.

626
00:40:40,790 --> 00:40:44,240
Okay so.
Let's say so you had this

627
00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:47,000
hypothesis.
You've done the studies, you've

628
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,240
already uncovered quite a lot,
and there's obviously a lot more

629
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:53,640
to come.
But you've already touched

630
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,360
briefly on this.
But I think let's go into a bit

631
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,400
more because there's the gold
standard I've wrote on in

632
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,600
neuropsychology where you guys
discover, OK, REM sleep versus

633
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,800
dream within the brainstem.
When there's brainstem lesions

634
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,240
and cortical lesions, there's
clear differences in REM sleep

635
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,760
and dream sleep.
Do you want to run through those

636
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,360
and exactly what those lesions
are?

637
00:41:13,490 --> 00:41:19,010
Yeah, I actually already have
said this, so, So let me just be

638
00:41:19,010 --> 00:41:25,250
a little bit more precise.
The the mesocortical mesolimbic

639
00:41:25,250 --> 00:41:29,570
dopamine system starts in the
ventral tegmental area, which is

640
00:41:29,570 --> 00:41:32,050
sort of at the transition
between midbrain and

641
00:41:32,050 --> 00:41:37,000
diencephalin at projects upwards
to the nucleus accumbens, which

642
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,800
is in the ventral striatum, the
underneath part of the basal

643
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,440
ganglia.
That's the sort of main

644
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,440
destination.
But it also projects beyond that

645
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:52,160
up to frontal cortex and also
down to amygdala.

646
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:56,320
So it's this, it's a very big
part of the medial forebrain

647
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:02,600
bundle damage, damage anywhere
in that circuit from the ventral

648
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:07,080
tegmental area upwards,
certainly up to and including

649
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:11,360
the nuclear circummbers.
But we've also had patients

650
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,600
where it's anterior to the
nuclear circummbers.

651
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,800
They stopped dreaming.
The other area, as I said

652
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:26,620
earlier, it's posterior cortex.
It is in particular that the the

653
00:42:26,620 --> 00:42:30,580
two sites where we see cessation
of dreaming and I say two sites,

654
00:42:30,580 --> 00:42:34,860
it's really a continuous site,
but it goes from the the, the,

655
00:42:34,980 --> 00:42:39,140
the inferior parietal lobule
down to the convexity of the

656
00:42:39,140 --> 00:42:45,020
temporal lobe, but then also
around into the medial surface,

657
00:42:45,180 --> 00:42:49,020
along the occipital temporal,
the medial surface.

658
00:42:49,380 --> 00:42:54,920
So it's basically, it's
basically a posterior

659
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,600
association cortex,
predominantly visual but not

660
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,160
exclusive, but by no means
exclusively visual.

661
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:06,160
So lesions there, those patients
stop dreaming, but they tend to

662
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,080
recover.
They tend to recover.

663
00:43:10,870 --> 00:43:15,190
In one study that I did, I
followed up 44 patients for a

664
00:43:15,190 --> 00:43:19,070
year and only two of them were
still not dreaming.

665
00:43:19,310 --> 00:43:23,230
But the vast majority recovered
within six months in fact.

666
00:43:23,670 --> 00:43:27,310
And one of the reasons it's
difficult to do research of the

667
00:43:27,310 --> 00:43:29,950
kind I was describing to you
earlier when I said we were

668
00:43:29,950 --> 00:43:33,070
taking patients with the
posterior lesions who could not

669
00:43:33,070 --> 00:43:38,430
dream for that reason And but
that dopamine system was working

670
00:43:38,430 --> 00:43:42,960
fine and we wanted to see
whether they will, whether their

671
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,200
sleep will be disturbed which as
I say it was.

672
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,840
But many of our research
participants recovered in the

673
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,080
middle of while we were studying
them because dreaming task tent

674
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,120
is a very robust phenomenon.
Dreaming.

675
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,240
I think for the very reason that
I said to you earlier that it's

676
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,160
it's if it has a sleep
protective function, then it's a

677
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:06,200
very important thing.
You when you first started out

678
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:07,680
in the field, you would You've
done a lot.

679
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:09,720
You've already done so much
pioneering work in.

680
00:44:10,260 --> 00:44:13,260
In dreaming, What's brought you
back to this?

681
00:44:13,260 --> 00:44:15,420
Is it the link to consciousness,
which we're obviously going to

682
00:44:15,420 --> 00:44:17,620
touch on is soon?
But was it that link?

683
00:44:18,740 --> 00:44:22,620
Yes.
In fact, when I studied dreams,

684
00:44:22,780 --> 00:44:27,300
which was, I started my research
in that area in the 1980s.

685
00:44:27,860 --> 00:44:33,620
And I must tell you, people
don't realize those days

686
00:44:34,620 --> 00:44:38,690
consciousness.
It was not a respectable topic,

687
00:44:39,090 --> 00:44:41,130
you know, I mean, Can you
believe it?

688
00:44:41,130 --> 00:44:44,730
Even in neuropsychology you know
which you would think you know

689
00:44:44,730 --> 00:44:45,770
psychology.
Hello.

690
00:44:45,770 --> 00:44:47,770
Doesn't that have something to
do with consciousness?

691
00:44:48,370 --> 00:44:53,330
It was no, the only respectable
topic as far as consciousness

692
00:44:53,330 --> 00:44:56,770
was concerned was not the
subjective experience of

693
00:44:57,050 --> 00:44:58,090
anything.
It was.

694
00:44:58,410 --> 00:45:03,130
It was the brain mechanisms of
the of of, of, of sleep and

695
00:45:03,130 --> 00:45:08,450
wakefulness.
You know so the the how how the

696
00:45:08,450 --> 00:45:14,850
sleep waking cycle is regulated
and that the discovery of REM

697
00:45:14,850 --> 00:45:19,290
sleep was within that tradition.
You know the the these arousal

698
00:45:19,290 --> 00:45:22,370
states that occurred during the
sleeping part of the sleep

699
00:45:22,370 --> 00:45:27,000
waking cycle.
And so I studied dreams.

700
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,920
I actually was studying brain
mechanisms of sleep and dreaming

701
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,880
and sleep was the intrusion of
wakeful I mean dreams or the

702
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:37,960
intrusion of wakefulness into
sleep.

703
00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:40,720
So wakefulness was a respectable
topic.

704
00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:44,440
And so, you know, I dressed up
what I was doing as studying

705
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:50,400
sleep and wakefulness, dreams
being wakefulness in in so the

706
00:45:51,300 --> 00:45:57,260
the the discovery of the brain
mechanisms of dreaming at that

707
00:45:57,260 --> 00:46:01,140
time.
It took me necessarily down into

708
00:46:01,140 --> 00:46:04,020
the basic arousal mechanisms of
the brainstem.

709
00:46:04,420 --> 00:46:08,580
But bearing in mind that it
particularly took me to this one

710
00:46:08,620 --> 00:46:12,420
arousal mechanism, which is the
top of minergic one, this is,

711
00:46:13,380 --> 00:46:16,100
this is not just switching on
and off the lights.

712
00:46:16,100 --> 00:46:21,140
It's an emotional motivational
mechanism and so that made me

713
00:46:21,140 --> 00:46:27,340
aware how it made me interested
in the fact that the brains

714
00:46:27,340 --> 00:46:29,940
these brainstem arousal
mechanisms are the brain

715
00:46:29,940 --> 00:46:34,620
mechanisms of emotion And and
that led me to to working with

716
00:46:34,620 --> 00:46:38,540
Yark Panksip because Yark
Panksip was the was the only

717
00:46:38,540 --> 00:46:43,100
person who said you know these
these brainstem arousal

718
00:46:43,100 --> 00:46:46,700
mechanisms generate affect they
they generate emotion they

719
00:46:46,700 --> 00:46:52,460
generate feeling and then that.
So that was the second stage of

720
00:46:52,460 --> 00:46:56,740
my work, you know, from from
from sleep and dreaming to

721
00:46:56,740 --> 00:47:01,620
emotion and then the
realization, which is the the,

722
00:47:01,860 --> 00:47:05,700
the phase of my work that I'm in
now, that these mechanisms that

723
00:47:05,700 --> 00:47:10,420
generate feeling and affect and
emotion are the very same

724
00:47:10,420 --> 00:47:14,280
mechanisms that generate
consciousness itself, so that

725
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:19,080
the foundational elemental form
of consciousness is affective

726
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,520
feeling.
And so it's, you know, it sounds

727
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,920
as if I've been all over the
park, but actually it's really

728
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,680
quite a straight line.
It is.

729
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:31,680
I mean and obviously in your
paper you you lay this out

730
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,040
perfectly, you talk about, OK,
this of course if this is

731
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,760
effective feeling and we're
experiencing constantly within

732
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,800
this dream state, it must.
Be something that's necessary

733
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,760
during consciousness.
Well, in conscious experience.

734
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,640
So this is a perfect place to
actually look because you don't

735
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,480
have to.
Consciousness can occur outside

736
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,400
dreams have to include some sort
of a conscious experience in a

737
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,640
sense.
Because it exactly, yeah.

738
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,680
Now that's a very interesting
point what you just said there.

739
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:09,620
So you know, one of the reasons
that I focused rather on the

740
00:48:09,820 --> 00:48:15,660
brain stem than the cortex,
which also didn't win me any

741
00:48:15,820 --> 00:48:20,620
friends, you know, it's it's
really to to to say in in

742
00:48:20,620 --> 00:48:24,630
neuropsychology that the cortex
is not the organ of

743
00:48:24,630 --> 00:48:28,510
consciousness is, is is really
to say something that goes very,

744
00:48:28,510 --> 00:48:30,390
very, very much against the
grain.

745
00:48:31,270 --> 00:48:34,710
But but but a strong reason why
I did that.

746
00:48:34,710 --> 00:48:36,430
I mean there are many reasons
why I did that.

747
00:48:36,510 --> 00:48:40,190
When I say reasons, I mean you
know there's much scientific

748
00:48:40,190 --> 00:48:42,910
evidence that led me to conclude
that.

749
00:48:43,750 --> 00:48:49,970
But within that body of evidence
is the fact that the cortex can

750
00:48:49,970 --> 00:48:52,810
do just about all of its
cortical things without being

751
00:48:52,810 --> 00:48:56,970
conscious.
You know, so I mean things that

752
00:48:57,130 --> 00:49:01,210
that only the cortex can do,
like recognize faces, read with

753
00:49:01,210 --> 00:49:04,890
comprehension, and so on.
You can read with comprehension,

754
00:49:05,090 --> 00:49:07,650
and your behavior will be
altered by what you've read

755
00:49:08,010 --> 00:49:11,250
without any conscious awareness
of having seen anything at all.

756
00:49:11,770 --> 00:49:17,660
So most of the when I say most,
I mean really just about all of

757
00:49:17,660 --> 00:49:22,620
the research on trying to to to
identify what they call the

758
00:49:22,620 --> 00:49:29,420
neural correlative consciousness
was was using vision as the

759
00:49:29,460 --> 00:49:34,540
cortical vision because that's
the conscious type of vision as

760
00:49:34,540 --> 00:49:37,940
the as our model example.
But as I've just said to you,

761
00:49:39,260 --> 00:49:43,180
the cortex can do all of that
visual gymnastics unconsciously.

762
00:49:43,620 --> 00:49:49,700
So vision, even cortical vision,
is not an intrinsically

763
00:49:49,700 --> 00:49:52,940
conscious function.
So why do you think you're going

764
00:49:52,940 --> 00:49:56,340
to solve the hard problem of
consciousness by studying

765
00:49:56,620 --> 00:49:59,580
something that is not actually
necessarily conscious?

766
00:50:00,430 --> 00:50:04,310
The reticular activating system
and periacqueductal Gray, these

767
00:50:04,310 --> 00:50:09,510
brain stem structures that
generate feeling that their

768
00:50:09,510 --> 00:50:12,750
whole function is to generate
consciousness.

769
00:50:12,750 --> 00:50:14,230
That's what.
That's why it's called the

770
00:50:14,230 --> 00:50:17,510
reticular activating system.
It activates the cortex.

771
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,880
It's it's it's the cortex is
only.

772
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:22,400
I mean this is not
controversial.

773
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:27,240
The evidence is just like 100%
there that the the cortex only

774
00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:30,880
is conscious when it is aroused
by the reticular activating

775
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,920
system Magoon and Maruti showed
in 1949.

776
00:50:34,240 --> 00:50:39,080
You sever it as they did in
cats, the ascending fibers that

777
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,800
you know the actions coming up
from the reticular activating

778
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,160
system to the cortex.
The cortex loses all

779
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,640
consciousness supplied by the
upper brain stem.

780
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,000
And it's only in recent years
that we realized that that's not

781
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,480
just a power supply, that
consciousness has a content and

782
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,680
a quality, it is affect, it's
feeling.

783
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:02,080
So we feel our way into our
otherwise unconscious

784
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:06,520
cognitions.
So why that's important is

785
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:12,270
because for the hard problem is
that if you want to identify how

786
00:51:12,270 --> 00:51:15,070
and why does consciousness
arise, you should be studying

787
00:51:15,070 --> 00:51:20,990
this basic in every sense, the
foundational form of of of

788
00:51:20,990 --> 00:51:26,830
consciousness, a form that is
called feeling, which has to be

789
00:51:26,830 --> 00:51:29,110
felt.
In other words, it necessarily

790
00:51:29,110 --> 00:51:32,270
is conscious.
So you know the way David Charm

791
00:51:32,270 --> 00:51:36,200
has put it, he said there's no
cognitive function, that the

792
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:40,520
explaining of its function or
mechanism will explain why it's

793
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:44,720
why you experience anything and
and that he's right when it

794
00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:47,160
comes to vision and so on,
cognitive functions.

795
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,760
But you can't say that in
relation to affect.

796
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:51,840
You can't say there's no
affective function.

797
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:56,200
You know that if you explain its
mechanism, you will explain why

798
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,960
you experience it because how
can you explain the mechanism of

799
00:51:59,960 --> 00:52:02,200
feeling without explaining why
you feel it?

800
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,120
Because, you know, that's the
whole point of feelings is you

801
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,640
feel them.
You haven't understood the

802
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,200
mechanism of feeling.
If it doesn't explain why you

803
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:12,600
experience it, you know, for
heaven's sake.

804
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,280
So.
So I became interested in

805
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,720
relation to the hard problem.
I became interested in how does

806
00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:25,240
the problem change if we look at
this proper, basic, fundamental,

807
00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:28,280
elemental form of consciousness
called feeling.

808
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,120
Now the interesting thing.
And This is why I was so

809
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:36,190
interested in what you just said
when I've said you can't have a

810
00:52:36,190 --> 00:52:39,150
feeling without feeling it.
It is intrinsically conscious.

811
00:52:39,150 --> 00:52:41,030
That's the function we should be
looking at.

812
00:52:41,350 --> 00:52:45,270
The same applies to dreams.
You can't have a dream without

813
00:52:45,270 --> 00:52:48,030
being conscious of it, because
otherwise it's not a dream.

814
00:52:48,230 --> 00:52:50,710
You know, the whole, the, the,
the, the, the.

815
00:52:50,750 --> 00:52:55,510
The defining feature of dreaming
is that the unconsciousness of

816
00:52:55,510 --> 00:53:00,510
sleep is punctuated by this
thing called the consciousness

817
00:53:00,510 --> 00:53:04,590
of a dream.
You know, so, and I don't think

818
00:53:04,590 --> 00:53:07,550
that that's I'm not playing
games here, you know, I'm not,

819
00:53:07,590 --> 00:53:11,150
I'm not playing linguistic games
or semantic games.

820
00:53:11,990 --> 00:53:15,030
I think that there's a deep
reason why that is the case.

821
00:53:15,030 --> 00:53:19,070
It's because dreams are driven
by affective functions, you know

822
00:53:19,070 --> 00:53:21,470
those those affective functions
are.

823
00:53:21,670 --> 00:53:25,230
So affect is being generated
during sleep.

824
00:53:25,390 --> 00:53:28,530
In other words, there's a
problem that's arisen for the

825
00:53:28,530 --> 00:53:30,530
Organism.
You know, it's in a state of

826
00:53:30,530 --> 00:53:33,370
uncertainty about something that
it's now got to deal with.

827
00:53:33,370 --> 00:53:37,090
And the dream is a way of
dealing with that affective

828
00:53:37,090 --> 00:53:39,130
arousal.
In other words, that deviation

829
00:53:39,130 --> 00:53:44,410
from where where we need to be.
It's a, it's a biological

830
00:53:44,410 --> 00:53:48,770
problem that has arisen during
sleep that needs a solution.

831
00:53:48,770 --> 00:53:52,890
And the dream is doing the work
of getting us, of managing the

832
00:53:52,890 --> 00:53:54,810
feeling.
And it's of of of in other

833
00:53:54,810 --> 00:53:57,690
words, of solving the problem of
of getting us back to

834
00:53:57,930 --> 00:54:00,810
homeostasis.
It's almost like it.

835
00:54:01,090 --> 00:54:04,250
Makes so much sense that one
should study dreams in order to

836
00:54:04,250 --> 00:54:06,370
understand consciousness.
It's almost like, why did we

837
00:54:06,370 --> 00:54:11,210
neglect this for so long?
Well, that's an easy question to

838
00:54:11,210 --> 00:54:13,610
answer.
It's because you know.

839
00:54:13,810 --> 00:54:17,930
In fact, it's the biggest
problem of psychology is

840
00:54:17,930 --> 00:54:20,690
psychology is the science of the
mind.

841
00:54:21,890 --> 00:54:25,410
And what is a mind if not
something subjective?

842
00:54:26,060 --> 00:54:32,060
The the the defining feature of
of of mental life is that it is

843
00:54:32,100 --> 00:54:34,500
the subjective being of the
Organism.

844
00:54:34,860 --> 00:54:36,860
It's it is intrinsically
subjective.

845
00:54:36,860 --> 00:54:40,700
I mean, hence you can ever.
You can.

846
00:54:40,820 --> 00:54:44,070
You can only observe your own
consciousness.

847
00:54:44,470 --> 00:54:47,390
You can't observe anybody else's
consciousness, ever, because

848
00:54:47,390 --> 00:54:49,710
they are objects.
You're a subject.

849
00:54:49,710 --> 00:54:52,470
You can only experience your own
subjectivity.

850
00:54:52,470 --> 00:54:54,910
Consciousness, the mind.
Subjectivity.

851
00:54:55,430 --> 00:54:59,530
These things are an
embarrassment to science because

852
00:54:59,530 --> 00:55:03,050
science aspires to objectivity.
You know, So how do you do

853
00:55:03,050 --> 00:55:06,450
science on something you know
that you can only observe your

854
00:55:06,450 --> 00:55:07,170
own?
I know.

855
00:55:07,290 --> 00:55:08,730
I wrote one of you.
One of.

856
00:55:08,730 --> 00:55:12,010
Your lines in the paper is
Scientists prefer objects over

857
00:55:12,010 --> 00:55:14,210
subjects.
Yes, exactly.

858
00:55:14,810 --> 00:55:20,250
And now with dreams, it's even
worse, because you're having a

859
00:55:20,250 --> 00:55:23,890
subjective experience while
you're asleep, you know?

860
00:55:23,890 --> 00:55:28,730
So there's no behavior that goes
with this, with this mental

861
00:55:28,730 --> 00:55:32,890
state that the person, the
dreamer, is asleep.

862
00:55:33,490 --> 00:55:38,970
And so the only way you can get
access to their dream is for

863
00:55:38,970 --> 00:55:43,970
them to wake up and remember the
dream and then report it to you.

864
00:55:44,130 --> 00:55:49,450
So it's a single witness
retrospective report of a

865
00:55:49,450 --> 00:55:54,010
phenomenon that we know is
notoriously forgettable and also

866
00:55:54,810 --> 00:55:57,840
most of the time.
It's also very hard to translate

867
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:02,320
dream experience into words.
You know we all, we all know

868
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:06,240
that when you try to tell your
partner with something, you know

869
00:56:06,240 --> 00:56:08,640
what you dreamt last night, you
know as you're doing it, it

870
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:12,040
isn't really that wasn't really
wasn't that doesn't quite convey

871
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:17,480
what it was like.
So I think that you know you

872
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,920
said why didn't we start there
in the 1st place.

873
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,880
I think that it's for these
sorts of reasons.

874
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:28,960
It's also for these sorts of
reasons that, as I said to you a

875
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:32,320
couple of like a good few
minutes ago now, I said that

876
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:35,360
once the correlation between
dreaming and REM sleep had been

877
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:38,200
established, we dropped the
dreams and just studied the REM

878
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,920
sleep.
But Please note what grave

879
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:46,120
errors that can lead us into.
I mean we lost decades of

880
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:52,660
research effort because we we,
we wanted to only study the

881
00:56:52,660 --> 00:56:58,820
objective side of the of the
mind body correlation, the, the,

882
00:56:59,580 --> 00:57:04,380
the.
I think that let me say this,

883
00:57:05,340 --> 00:57:10,380
the the brain is the only thing
that we know of in the universe

884
00:57:10,660 --> 00:57:17,580
that has subjective experience
and surely this subject, this

885
00:57:17,580 --> 00:57:22,130
extraordinary quality, it must
be doing something you know.

886
00:57:22,570 --> 00:57:28,210
And if that's the case, you're
never going to understand how

887
00:57:28,210 --> 00:57:32,970
the brain works unless you
understand why, unless you take

888
00:57:32,970 --> 00:57:36,450
account of its subjectivity.
You know the what if the

889
00:57:36,450 --> 00:57:40,490
subjective, I mean, as we all
know from our own lived lives,

890
00:57:40,490 --> 00:57:44,410
you know, you know that what you
do is caused in large part by

891
00:57:44,410 --> 00:57:48,340
how you feel, you know and say
if we leave that out of the

892
00:57:48,340 --> 00:57:51,220
equation, we're never going to
understand how that part of

893
00:57:51,220 --> 00:57:53,260
nature works.
There's also a lot of

894
00:57:53,260 --> 00:57:56,340
historical, I mean.
You've already said this, but I

895
00:57:56,340 --> 00:57:58,940
mean the behaviorist movement
obviously played a big role in

896
00:57:58,940 --> 00:58:00,940
this.
Also the fact that dreams are

897
00:58:01,020 --> 00:58:02,820
often associated with Sigmund
Freud.

898
00:58:02,820 --> 00:58:05,340
I mean The Interpretation of
Dreams, one of his biggest books

899
00:58:05,700 --> 00:58:08,700
and and a lot of people
misinterpret a lot of Freud's

900
00:58:08,700 --> 00:58:11,180
work or because of the flaws
within it.

901
00:58:11,180 --> 00:58:13,740
People don't take it in a
context and.

902
00:58:14,290 --> 00:58:16,370
And they disregard a lot of it,
which is incorrect.

903
00:58:16,410 --> 00:58:18,850
I mean, one of your lines was
Consciousness of cortical

904
00:58:18,850 --> 00:58:21,410
representations, contextualized
effect.

905
00:58:21,610 --> 00:58:24,090
And that context.
That context is so important.

906
00:58:24,810 --> 00:58:27,650
Yes.
Look, let's just go back to what

907
00:58:27,650 --> 00:58:30,450
you said there about the
behaviorists, because there's

908
00:58:30,450 --> 00:58:33,610
something that we must never
forget.

909
00:58:34,570 --> 00:58:37,930
You know, I told you, I don't
need to tell you.

910
00:58:38,210 --> 00:58:41,250
The word psychology, you know,
means science of the mind.

911
00:58:42,410 --> 00:58:46,970
And the behaviorists excluded
the psyche from psychology.

912
00:58:47,130 --> 00:58:51,050
You know, they said no, we can't
study the mental states because

913
00:58:51,050 --> 00:58:52,730
they're subjective.
We're only going to study

914
00:58:52,730 --> 00:58:55,490
behaviors.
I mean, how absurd is that to

915
00:58:55,490 --> 00:59:01,050
have psychology without the
psyche is and and the the

916
00:59:01,050 --> 00:59:06,690
mistake there is to adjust the
subject that you're studying to

917
00:59:06,690 --> 00:59:08,570
the methods that you have
available.

918
00:59:08,570 --> 00:59:11,410
You know, you've got to adjust
the methods to the thing that

919
00:59:11,410 --> 00:59:15,440
you're studying.
And embarrassing as subjectivity

920
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,240
may be to science, it certainly
exists in nature.

921
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,120
I mean, the one thing that we
can all be absolutely certain

922
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:22,960
about is that we are
experiencing.

923
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:26,360
As Descartes told us, That's the
one thing you can be sure of, is

924
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:31,800
that you know you exist because
you experience, and so you know

925
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:33,720
you can't exclude it from
science.

926
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:39,120
You got to find methods that
that are suited to the study of

927
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:41,720
subjectivity.
So that's what Freud did.

928
00:59:42,500 --> 00:59:48,620
Freud's Freud.
I hasten to to to add for all of

929
00:59:48,620 --> 00:59:51,420
his mistakes, with all of his
faults, you know, et cetera.

930
00:59:51,420 --> 00:59:55,740
Because, you know, I'm not one
of those people who thinks that

931
00:59:55,940 --> 01:00:00,460
everything that Freud did was,
you know, was correct by any

932
01:00:00,460 --> 01:00:02,580
means.
But I think that this thing that

933
01:00:02,580 --> 01:00:07,220
he did was correct was to say
that the the centerpiece of

934
01:00:07,380 --> 01:00:11,460
psychological science in.
In other words it's you have

935
01:00:11,500 --> 01:00:14,220
the, the.
Psychological science has to be

936
01:00:14,220 --> 01:00:17,020
adapted to how do you study
subjectivity.

937
01:00:17,460 --> 01:00:23,620
And so he didn't hesitate to
study subjectivity the whole his

938
01:00:23,620 --> 01:00:28,020
method called free association.
It's basically just a sample of

939
01:00:28,020 --> 01:00:33,260
the stream of consciousness in a
relatively controlled setting.

940
01:00:33,790 --> 01:00:38,030
And he used the same method to
study dreams, just getting the

941
01:00:38,030 --> 01:00:42,230
patient to all the research
participant to say everything

942
01:00:42,230 --> 01:00:44,910
that comes to consciousness in
relation to the remembered

943
01:00:44,910 --> 01:00:49,990
elements of the dream.
And in doing that, he came to

944
01:00:49,990 --> 01:00:54,360
the not very obvious conclusion.
You know that dreams are

945
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:59,000
motivated, in fact wishful
states of mind, and dreams don't

946
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:01,000
look like that to to us, most of
them.

947
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:03,080
And what about nightmares, for
example?

948
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:06,200
Most dreams just seem completely
incomprehensible nonsense.

949
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:10,160
But Freud said no behind this,
you know, and that's so there

950
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,120
you have the weakness of his
method, because, I mean, how do

951
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:16,040
you falsify that?
You can't falsify it to say

952
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:21,140
behind every dream is the wish
you know if it's behind the

953
01:01:21,140 --> 01:01:24,460
dream is the wish you know, then
then you can always find that

954
01:01:24,460 --> 01:01:26,100
wish.
If you're interpreting, you

955
01:01:26,100 --> 01:01:28,140
know, like he did, that's that,
that's the method.

956
01:01:28,500 --> 01:01:32,660
But now we have new methods.
So you know positron emission

957
01:01:32,660 --> 01:01:36,500
tomography, you look at the
dreaming brain and you see that

958
01:01:36,620 --> 01:01:40,660
that that motivating wishful
seeking mechanisms switching on

959
01:01:41,020 --> 01:01:46,700
full blast.
And so you know, I, I, I, I my,

960
01:01:47,500 --> 01:01:51,820
I don't know if you know this,
Tim, but I I became interested

961
01:01:51,820 --> 01:01:56,580
in psychoanalysis in large part
because of my dream findings.

962
01:01:56,940 --> 01:02:02,780
You know, it's it was it was you
know sort of I was trained in an

963
01:02:02,860 --> 01:02:06,900
era where psychoanalysis was not
part of the university.

964
01:02:06,900 --> 01:02:09,430
It wasn't serious science at
all, you know.

965
01:02:09,430 --> 01:02:12,790
So for me it was a really a big
surprise to discover, first of

966
01:02:12,790 --> 01:02:15,030
all, that REM sleep is not what
generates dreams.

967
01:02:15,030 --> 01:02:18,030
Secondly, that what generates
dreams is these emotional

968
01:02:18,030 --> 01:02:20,870
motivational circuits.
And in fact, the most wishful

969
01:02:20,870 --> 01:02:25,870
one that we've got is the one
that made me take a second look

970
01:02:25,870 --> 01:02:29,510
at Freud.
I can only imagine I don't even

971
01:02:29,510 --> 01:02:31,310
remember what.
Your question was, but that was

972
01:02:31,310 --> 01:02:33,950
my answer to no, it's fine, but
I can imagine because I

973
01:02:33,950 --> 01:02:35,900
remember.
I mean, you've said this in

974
01:02:35,900 --> 01:02:38,060
other podcasts as well, but
remember you also told me that

975
01:02:38,660 --> 01:02:42,140
studying psychoanalysis was akin
to people would describe it as

976
01:02:42,140 --> 01:02:44,300
almost being an astronomer
studying astrology.

977
01:02:44,580 --> 01:02:47,580
So it's so much backtracking you
already have to do.

978
01:02:47,900 --> 01:02:50,580
And then in order to defend
someone like Freud probably

979
01:02:50,580 --> 01:02:53,860
makes it even harder at that
point because people have so

980
01:02:53,860 --> 01:02:55,980
many negative connotations to it
nowadays.

981
01:02:56,540 --> 01:02:58,380
Yes.
Yeah, that's right.

982
01:02:58,980 --> 01:03:00,380
Well, I only always.
Sorry.

983
01:03:00,380 --> 01:03:05,220
Sorry.
No, I think that if we can, if

984
01:03:05,220 --> 01:03:11,980
we can reintroduce into
psychological science and we are

985
01:03:11,980 --> 01:03:16,700
in our era, we are, you know,
reintroduce the subjectivity in

986
01:03:16,700 --> 01:03:18,660
the full sense of the word.
In other words, not this

987
01:03:18,660 --> 01:03:21,740
function called consciousness,
but rather, you know, the the

988
01:03:21,740 --> 01:03:25,500
actual experiential lived life,
the phenomenal logic, the the

989
01:03:25,740 --> 01:03:29,460
the qualitative stuff that is
the proper subject matter of

990
01:03:29,460 --> 01:03:35,930
psychology.
And then we've got back to where

991
01:03:35,930 --> 01:03:39,930
Freud started from, and then we
can go way beyond where Freud

992
01:03:39,930 --> 01:03:42,370
ended.
You know there is a field.

993
01:03:42,370 --> 01:03:45,410
Called phenomenological
psychopathology, which a lot of

994
01:03:45,410 --> 01:03:49,010
people are trying to bring into
psychiatry and psychopathology

995
01:03:49,010 --> 01:03:51,770
just to insist with that lived
experience aspect of it all.

996
01:03:52,210 --> 01:03:54,210
But anyway, let's move on to
the.

997
01:03:55,300 --> 01:03:57,660
To to affect coming, as I said
you that quote of yours,

998
01:03:57,660 --> 01:04:00,940
consciousness of cortical
representations contextualize

999
01:04:00,980 --> 01:04:04,140
affect.
Then let's discuss those 3

1000
01:04:04,300 --> 01:04:06,420
features of affect 1st and move
on from there.

1001
01:04:06,420 --> 01:04:09,380
I mean, you describe them as
valence, qualia and action.

1002
01:04:09,620 --> 01:04:15,540
When I go into detail with it
before we move on, yeah, well,

1003
01:04:15,980 --> 01:04:21,300
the the thing that distinguishes
affects from other mental states

1004
01:04:21,660 --> 01:04:26,710
is the valence.
First and foremost, effects are

1005
01:04:26,750 --> 01:04:29,510
intrinsically valenced.
In other words, they have an

1006
01:04:29,590 --> 01:04:32,550
intrinsic goodness or badness
about them.

1007
01:04:33,710 --> 01:04:38,270
And importantly, that goodness
or badness is goodness and

1008
01:04:38,270 --> 01:04:40,950
badness to me.
For me, it's subjective.

1009
01:04:41,590 --> 01:04:48,100
So it's they are valenced.
Subjective states, objects don't

1010
01:04:48,100 --> 01:04:51,020
have intrinsic valence.
It's it's too it's too it's this

1011
01:04:51,020 --> 01:04:54,380
it's only this subjective state
that has this intrinsic valence.

1012
01:04:54,380 --> 01:04:56,180
The subjective state called
affect.

1013
01:04:58,020 --> 01:05:03,380
But pleasure and unpleasure,
Valence is a continuous

1014
01:05:03,380 --> 01:05:05,540
variable.
You know you you start at this

1015
01:05:05,540 --> 01:05:08,580
end there's unpleasure and you
carry on you know through

1016
01:05:08,580 --> 01:05:11,940
neutral to to pleasure.
It's a it's a you can quantify

1017
01:05:11,940 --> 01:05:14,860
it on a single scale.
It's it can be reduced to to a

1018
01:05:14,860 --> 01:05:23,540
common denominator.
But affects or or or not.

1019
01:05:23,540 --> 01:05:27,740
They are categorical variables
in the sense that it's not just

1020
01:05:27,740 --> 01:05:32,220
I feel good or I feel bad, it's
that I feel bad about what you

1021
01:05:32,220 --> 01:05:35,740
know.
So the so hunger is a particular

1022
01:05:35,740 --> 01:05:39,940
need which is different from
thirst, which is another need,

1023
01:05:39,940 --> 01:05:42,620
which is different from
sleepiness, which is another

1024
01:05:42,620 --> 01:05:46,060
need.
And they all of them unpleasant,

1025
01:05:46,700 --> 01:05:50,860
but they they have to be
categorically distinct from each

1026
01:05:50,860 --> 01:05:55,620
other because each of those
needs has to be met in their in

1027
01:05:55,620 --> 01:05:58,300
its own right.
You can't, you can't say I've

1028
01:05:58,300 --> 01:06:04,380
got 8 out of 10 of of sleepiness
and four out of ten of those.

1029
01:06:04,380 --> 01:06:08,260
Therefore, I've got 12 out of 20
of total need or total

1030
01:06:08,260 --> 01:06:11,690
unpleasure.
So therefore all I'm going to do

1031
01:06:11,690 --> 01:06:16,570
is sleep you, you, I'm reducing
the total number you'll you'll

1032
01:06:16,570 --> 01:06:18,850
die if you don't.
You don't drink also.

1033
01:06:19,370 --> 01:06:22,170
So this is a very important
point.

1034
01:06:22,170 --> 01:06:26,290
You know, it's such a simple
point that I think that we can

1035
01:06:26,290 --> 01:06:28,130
easily just sort of like skim
over it.

1036
01:06:28,130 --> 01:06:33,450
But I really want to emphasize
it that traffics therefore must

1037
01:06:33,450 --> 01:06:37,610
be qualitatively distinct from
each other because they have to

1038
01:06:37,610 --> 01:06:39,850
be treated as categorical
variables.

1039
01:06:40,130 --> 01:06:43,130
It's, it's, it's, there's no,
there's no alternative.

1040
01:06:43,130 --> 01:06:47,410
You have to, you have to treat
each need in its own right.

1041
01:06:47,410 --> 01:06:52,130
And so the subjective experience
of the valence has to be valence

1042
01:06:52,130 --> 01:06:54,410
in relation to this one, in
relation to this one, in

1043
01:06:54,410 --> 01:06:56,610
relation to this one.
And why that's important is

1044
01:06:56,610 --> 01:07:01,590
because that means that because,
remember, categorical variables

1045
01:07:01,590 --> 01:07:04,150
are qualitatively distinguished
from each other.

1046
01:07:04,390 --> 01:07:07,990
Eight out of 10 of sleep is not
the same thing as eight out of

1047
01:07:07,990 --> 01:07:10,550
10 of of thirst.
You know they are.

1048
01:07:10,550 --> 01:07:13,790
They're qualitatively different.
Categorical variables work like

1049
01:07:13,790 --> 01:07:15,910
that.
Why that's so important is

1050
01:07:15,910 --> 01:07:20,470
because there you have the
necessary basis for qualia.

1051
01:07:21,340 --> 01:07:25,340
Qualia have to exist in the mind
in the sense that you have the

1052
01:07:25,340 --> 01:07:29,260
subjective states which are
intrinsically valenced and they

1053
01:07:29,420 --> 01:07:33,060
also are intrinsically
qualitatively distinct from each

1054
01:07:33,060 --> 01:07:34,980
other.
And I think that that's really

1055
01:07:34,980 --> 01:07:37,140
important in terms, again, of
the hard problem of

1056
01:07:37,140 --> 01:07:39,820
consciousness.
Why do we have these qualitative

1057
01:07:39,820 --> 01:07:41,460
states?
Well, there's one very good

1058
01:07:41,460 --> 01:07:44,340
reason why we have them.
The third aspect that you

1059
01:07:44,340 --> 01:07:49,720
mentioned, which is the
behavior, it's acting on those

1060
01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:53,320
states because you know they
are, these are, these are not

1061
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:56,400
nice to haves, you know, these
are, these are needs.

1062
01:07:56,440 --> 01:08:00,120
These are phenotypic needs.
If you don't meet those needs,

1063
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:02,000
you die.
I mean that's how homeostasis

1064
01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:05,400
works.
So we have inbuilt behaviors

1065
01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:09,800
that they reflexes or instincts
that go with each of these

1066
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:17,100
different phenotypic needs, you
know, like foraging behavior and

1067
01:08:17,100 --> 01:08:21,979
sexual behavior and and and and
and and sleep behavior and, you

1068
01:08:21,979 --> 01:08:25,819
know, etc.
But those are, we're born with

1069
01:08:25,819 --> 01:08:28,700
those things.
They're far too stereotyped.

1070
01:08:28,700 --> 01:08:31,540
They're not.
They're not even nearly enough

1071
01:08:31,700 --> 01:08:34,779
to be able to enable us to meet
our needs in the great,

1072
01:08:35,540 --> 01:08:38,460
unpredictable variety of
situations that we find

1073
01:08:38,460 --> 01:08:40,859
ourselves in, including many
novel situations.

1074
01:08:41,220 --> 01:08:47,439
And so we have to supplement
these behaviors with through

1075
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:52,080
learning from experience.
And so we have, in addition to

1076
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:55,319
these innate predictions, which
we call reflexes and instincts,

1077
01:08:55,760 --> 01:09:00,479
we have then the full gamut of
all of the different things that

1078
01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:04,120
we do.
And I just want to, at this last

1079
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:09,680
point, Please note that
everything we do ultimately, if

1080
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:14,120
you look at it biologically, is
in order to meet our needs, in

1081
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:17,160
order to stay alive, in order to
survive and reproduce, to take

1082
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:19,600
us back to the thing about the
purpose of life that we were

1083
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:21,880
speaking about at the beginning
of our conversation.

1084
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:27,720
So continue marks or else no.
No, that's that's that's what I

1085
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:29,720
wanted to say.
So that's what that's what

1086
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:32,880
effects are.
It's It's intriguing because.

1087
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:36,240
I mean, at some point in your
paper, you eventually bring up

1088
01:09:36,319 --> 01:09:39,760
bring up the knowledge argument
to to sort of solidify this

1089
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:42,279
aspect.
I was chatting by e-mail with

1090
01:09:42,279 --> 01:09:45,399
Frank Jackson about that, trying
to get him on the show.

1091
01:09:45,399 --> 01:09:48,080
But he says he's taking a break
from social media.

1092
01:09:48,279 --> 01:09:50,640
Because I think that's one of
the best arguments to show

1093
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:53,560
someone an example of, I mean
that, that pure essence of

1094
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,760
feeling when Mike's episode came
out of Head.

1095
01:09:57,250 --> 01:09:59,290
People going at it in the
comments section you have people

1096
01:09:59,290 --> 01:10:02,890
discussing how because Mike at
some point had said that the

1097
01:10:02,890 --> 01:10:07,730
only way to truly know to truly
get a conscious a future where

1098
01:10:07,730 --> 01:10:10,890
we can all integrate and
cooperate better is if we slowly

1099
01:10:10,890 --> 01:10:13,570
learn how what each other
experiencing more and more.

1100
01:10:13,810 --> 01:10:16,050
And the only true way to know
what someone else is

1101
01:10:16,050 --> 01:10:19,490
experiencing is to actually
experience what they're

1102
01:10:19,490 --> 01:10:22,090
experiencing, because otherwise
there's no other way.

1103
01:10:22,090 --> 01:10:24,290
It's it's pretty much an
impossible reality at that

1104
01:10:24,290 --> 01:10:26,250
point.
And then people were bringing up

1105
01:10:26,250 --> 01:10:27,730
the knowledge argument and.
Saying okay.

1106
01:10:27,730 --> 01:10:30,730
Well, if they have all the
theory, why is that impossible?

1107
01:10:30,730 --> 01:10:32,730
Do you want to touch on that and
give them an answer?

1108
01:10:35,170 --> 01:10:40,610
Well, just in case there's
people watching or listening who

1109
01:10:40,610 --> 01:10:44,410
are not familiar with the
knowledge argument, it is in

1110
01:10:44,410 --> 01:10:48,400
simplified form.
This is my simplification of it.

1111
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:51,480
That there's there's there's a
visual neuroscientist named

1112
01:10:51,480 --> 01:10:54,640
Mary, and she knows everything
that there is to know about the

1113
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:58,080
mechanisms of vision.
That the physical physiological

1114
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:01,240
process is whereby visual
information is processed.

1115
01:11:01,440 --> 01:11:04,200
But Mary's blind, That's my
simplified part of it.

1116
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:07,800
And so she doesn't know what it
is like to see.

1117
01:11:08,310 --> 01:11:10,110
She knows everything.
That's the knowledge.

1118
01:11:10,110 --> 01:11:14,990
She's got, all the knowledge
about how visual information is

1119
01:11:14,990 --> 01:11:17,990
processed in the brain.
But she knows nothing about what

1120
01:11:17,990 --> 01:11:21,510
it is like to see the actual
qualitative, phenomenological

1121
01:11:21,510 --> 01:11:25,350
experience of vision.
And so Jackson's argument those

1122
01:11:25,350 --> 01:11:27,870
days, because he's changed his
mind, by the way.

1123
01:11:28,070 --> 01:11:32,600
But in 1982, when he when he
published that, he said that

1124
01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:36,680
shows that the actual
qualitative phenomenological

1125
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:40,280
experience of seeing is not
accounted for by the causal

1126
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:44,120
physical mechanism.
It exists in some other plane

1127
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:49,400
and nothing about her knowledge
of the physical mechanisms of

1128
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:54,520
vision prepared Mary for what it
is like to see, even gave her

1129
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:57,440
any reason to predict that they
would be something it is like to

1130
01:11:57,440 --> 01:11:59,640
see.
It seems therefore that the the

1131
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:03,640
the qualitative, subjective
experience of seeing isn't

1132
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:05,560
necessary.
It doesn't do anything.

1133
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:07,760
It's just you know and it's
where does it fit into the

1134
01:12:07,760 --> 01:12:08,840
mechanism.
It doesn't.

1135
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:13,120
That was the knowledge argument.
So my response to that was

1136
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:17,440
that's because, as I've said
previously in this conversation,

1137
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:20,240
because vision is not an
intrinsically conscious

1138
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:23,800
function, you can understand
everything about how visual

1139
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:27,960
information processing works.
Because without reference to

1140
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:32,160
what it is like to see, Because
visual information processing

1141
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:35,760
can work without you having any
experiential vision.

1142
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:41,690
I mean, your phone can see you.
The camera in your phone sees a

1143
01:12:41,690 --> 01:12:44,810
face, recognizes the face, takes
a photograph of a face,

1144
01:12:44,810 --> 01:12:47,170
remembers therefore that face,
all of that stuff.

1145
01:12:47,450 --> 01:12:50,090
But there's nothing that's like
to be a camera or to be a phone.

1146
01:12:50,330 --> 01:12:51,690
And it does it even better,
because if you.

1147
01:12:51,690 --> 01:12:54,450
Are if you click take, remove
the nose, the phone knows

1148
01:12:54,450 --> 01:12:57,970
exactly which parts to remove,
so it sees even better than us,

1149
01:12:58,450 --> 01:13:01,130
you know.
So all of this very complicated

1150
01:13:01,130 --> 01:13:04,330
visual information processing
can go on without any

1151
01:13:04,330 --> 01:13:07,140
experience.
Now, as I said earlier, that

1152
01:13:07,140 --> 01:13:11,180
does not apply to another
function, so that's the function

1153
01:13:11,180 --> 01:13:13,900
of vision, but the function of
feeling.

1154
01:13:14,260 --> 01:13:18,500
You cannot explain the function
of feeling without knowing what

1155
01:13:18,500 --> 01:13:20,900
it is like to feel, without
explaining why.

1156
01:13:20,900 --> 01:13:24,460
It feels like something if if
Mary was an affective

1157
01:13:24,460 --> 01:13:27,800
neuroscientist.
Actually, first of all, if Mary

1158
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:31,920
was an affective neuroscientist
who never experienced affect,

1159
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:35,080
she would in fact be dead
because her brain stem

1160
01:13:35,080 --> 01:13:38,880
mechanisms that keep her alive,
you know, would would would not

1161
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:41,720
be working.
And you know, in a manner of

1162
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:43,760
speaking, that's also an
important point.

1163
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:47,240
It's that, you know this is not,
this is not fluff.

1164
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:51,680
Feeling is is has massive causal
consequences.

1165
01:13:52,180 --> 01:13:55,540
The patients in coma, you know,
they die unless we keep them

1166
01:13:55,540 --> 01:13:59,620
alive, that you can't live
without being conscious.

1167
01:14:00,420 --> 01:14:03,860
And you know, in other words,
the consciousness is doing

1168
01:14:03,860 --> 01:14:08,300
something bloody important.
So that was my argument is that

1169
01:14:08,380 --> 01:14:13,420
had we started with affect
rather than with vision, the the

1170
01:14:13,540 --> 01:14:15,940
the the knowledge problem would
never have arisen.

1171
01:14:16,420 --> 01:14:20,980
And and and and the hard
problem, which which comes

1172
01:14:20,980 --> 01:14:26,340
thirteen years later, Chalmers
builds on Jackson's knowledge

1173
01:14:26,340 --> 01:14:29,460
argument.
In fact, he it's a very pivotal

1174
01:14:29,460 --> 01:14:33,740
to Chalmers's whole view that
you know, you can explain the

1175
01:14:33,740 --> 01:14:38,020
function without explaining why
there's an experience attached

1176
01:14:38,100 --> 01:14:41,660
to the the the execution of that
function.

1177
01:14:42,430 --> 01:14:44,750
That's pretty much the essence
of the hard problem.

1178
01:14:45,070 --> 01:14:48,630
Also, I made a.
Note just saying unconscious

1179
01:14:48,630 --> 01:14:51,390
feeling is an oxymoron.
You also like that?

1180
01:14:51,390 --> 01:14:56,350
Yeah, that's a very nice one.
But Please remember Tevin.

1181
01:14:56,350 --> 01:14:59,670
What I'm saying is that it's not
only that it's an oxymoron, it

1182
01:14:59,670 --> 01:15:02,190
is an oxymoron.
But it's an oxymoron for a very

1183
01:15:02,190 --> 01:15:08,530
good reason.
And when I say that that feeling

1184
01:15:08,690 --> 01:15:11,450
is where we should feeling is
the elemental form of

1185
01:15:11,450 --> 01:15:14,050
consciousness, and we should
study that If we want to

1186
01:15:14,050 --> 01:15:21,130
understand its mechanism, how it
arises, why it arises, then let

1187
01:15:21,130 --> 01:15:24,370
us not forget that the part of
the brain that generates

1188
01:15:24,370 --> 01:15:26,770
feelings is the part of the
brain that generates

1189
01:15:26,770 --> 01:15:29,010
consciousness.
It's like this is intrinsically

1190
01:15:29,010 --> 01:15:32,990
consciousness generating tissue.
So it's not just a word, you

1191
01:15:32,990 --> 01:15:37,950
know, that feeling must be felt.
It is that what this part of the

1192
01:15:37,950 --> 01:15:42,390
brain is doing is generating
states of consciousness.

1193
01:15:42,390 --> 01:15:46,670
It's the whole reason that the
arousal activating systems are

1194
01:15:46,670 --> 01:15:49,070
there, I have to say, because
when I.

1195
01:15:50,300 --> 01:15:53,340
When I first started reading the
your work on affect and the way

1196
01:15:53,340 --> 01:15:55,380
you were approaching
consciousness, I remember also

1197
01:15:55,380 --> 01:15:58,420
initially thinking this might
this is a bit out there.

1198
01:15:58,420 --> 01:16:00,740
So when you say like people
were, people might think it's

1199
01:16:00,740 --> 01:16:02,860
crazy and stuff like I can get
where you're coming from.

1200
01:16:03,140 --> 01:16:05,100
But the more you read it, the
more you see the evidence, the

1201
01:16:05,100 --> 01:16:08,140
more you talk about it, it
becomes very it almost becomes

1202
01:16:08,140 --> 01:16:09,620
very obvious.
It's almost like you're

1203
01:16:09,620 --> 01:16:11,700
highlighting a problem that
we've been ignoring for quite

1204
01:16:11,700 --> 01:16:13,460
some time.
How do you feel about it?

1205
01:16:13,460 --> 01:16:16,180
Do you feel like it's it's it's
about time people took this

1206
01:16:16,180 --> 01:16:19,060
approach or or do you think it's
gaining some traction in the way

1207
01:16:19,060 --> 01:16:24,140
people perceive the problem?
Well, I'll tell you, since we

1208
01:16:24,140 --> 01:16:30,380
started our conversation, this
conversation, now you you we

1209
01:16:30,380 --> 01:16:34,980
were talking about my recent
trip to Boston and other

1210
01:16:34,980 --> 01:16:39,340
speakers at that meeting.
There's Mike Levin, Chris

1211
01:16:39,340 --> 01:16:46,860
Fields, Carl Friston, what's his
name?

1212
01:16:47,740 --> 01:16:53,500
Richard I forget his surname.
Watson yes, you know these are

1213
01:16:54,420 --> 01:16:57,660
apologies Richard Watson if
you're watching these are

1214
01:16:58,220 --> 01:17:00,700
really, really outstanding minds
you know.

1215
01:17:01,100 --> 01:17:06,540
And so I I my paper, I said to
them, look, you know, I wanted

1216
01:17:06,540 --> 01:17:10,100
to because the conference was
mostly about biological versus

1217
01:17:10,300 --> 01:17:16,680
artificial minds.
And I said I'm doing work in

1218
01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:19,640
that area and I really want to
get there to talk to you guys

1219
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:22,360
about this.
But I want to spend at least the

1220
01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:26,720
first half of my talk just
setting out my stall for why I

1221
01:17:26,720 --> 01:17:28,880
believe that we're looking in
the wrong place.

1222
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:31,880
It's not cortical.
It's a brainstem function and

1223
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:33,440
it's an affective function and
so on.

1224
01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:37,500
And I set out all the evidence
for them.

1225
01:17:37,500 --> 01:17:40,580
I said the reason I'm doing this
is because to my great surprise,

1226
01:17:40,580 --> 01:17:44,220
you know many people still, you
know, don't believe this.

1227
01:17:44,220 --> 01:17:45,860
And I just, I just can't
understand it.

1228
01:17:45,860 --> 01:17:49,580
What am I doing wrong that you
know that I'm can't you see the

1229
01:17:49,580 --> 01:17:52,780
evidence?
And so at that conference in,

1230
01:17:52,820 --> 01:17:56,580
in, because you're asking me
did, is it gaining traction, all

1231
01:17:56,580 --> 01:17:59,260
of those guys who I just
mentioned that they all were

1232
01:17:59,300 --> 01:18:04,420
100% on site, you know, so yeah,
I think, well, gosh, you know,

1233
01:18:04,420 --> 01:18:09,010
so that's very, very gratifying.
But I want to, while I'm busy

1234
01:18:09,010 --> 01:18:14,410
saying immodest things, I want
to go back a little bit earlier

1235
01:18:14,410 --> 01:18:17,570
than this Boston Congress.
I mean, symposium.

1236
01:18:18,410 --> 01:18:21,890
You know, Tom Nagle the other
day at the Consciousness

1237
01:18:21,890 --> 01:18:24,170
Conference, he gave the keynote
paper.

1238
01:18:25,090 --> 01:18:29,890
And Tom Nagle, who wrote the
1974 paper What is it Like to be

1239
01:18:29,890 --> 01:18:32,090
a Bat?
Spoke about everything that's

1240
01:18:32,090 --> 01:18:34,210
happened since then in
consciousness studies.

1241
01:18:34,490 --> 01:18:38,370
I mean, it's really like the
kind of the great grandfather of

1242
01:18:38,770 --> 01:18:43,450
of, of the modern philosophy of
of of of consciousness.

1243
01:18:45,050 --> 01:18:48,690
He's in his talk about 2/3 of
the way through it.

1244
01:18:48,690 --> 01:18:50,410
I mean, I couldn't believe my
ears.

1245
01:18:50,650 --> 01:18:52,570
I'm sitting there listening to
Tom Nagle.

1246
01:18:52,570 --> 01:18:55,010
It's a wonderful treat in a
gate, giving us this great

1247
01:18:55,010 --> 01:18:58,050
sweeping sort of description of
where he started and where

1248
01:18:58,050 --> 01:19:01,370
things have gone since then and
where things are now and where

1249
01:19:01,370 --> 01:19:04,650
how he sees the future.
How does he see the future when

1250
01:19:04,650 --> 01:19:07,910
he says, I think this guy called
Mark Solms is doing the right

1251
01:19:07,910 --> 01:19:09,990
thing.
He's he's pointed out that

1252
01:19:09,990 --> 01:19:12,310
feelings are intrinsically
conscious states.

1253
01:19:12,670 --> 01:19:15,390
And I think that's right, you
know, And I think that that's

1254
01:19:15,390 --> 01:19:17,830
the way forwards.
I thought, wow, I've arrived,

1255
01:19:17,830 --> 01:19:21,230
you know Tom Nagle in that
lecture?

1256
01:19:21,230 --> 01:19:25,270
He named Check two people.
One was Mark Songs, the other

1257
01:19:25,270 --> 01:19:29,510
one was Baruch Spinoza.
That's, I mean, that's a lot.

1258
01:19:30,070 --> 01:19:32,430
That's, that's that's one of the
best name drops you can get.

1259
01:19:33,780 --> 01:19:36,260
I mean, if you think of Tom
Nagle, it's he's like the

1260
01:19:36,260 --> 01:19:38,940
father's modern philosophy of
mind at this point.

1261
01:19:39,860 --> 01:19:43,980
Tom Nagle's probably the most
quoted philosophy and I think

1262
01:19:43,980 --> 01:19:46,820
David Chalmers with his hard
problem is probably follows

1263
01:19:46,820 --> 01:19:49,420
right after.
But so that's pretty epic.

1264
01:19:49,420 --> 01:19:51,820
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean I was really, I

1265
01:19:51,820 --> 01:19:54,820
mean not only because remember
you asked me is it gaining

1266
01:19:54,820 --> 01:19:58,030
traction.
I mean I wasn't only gratified

1267
01:19:58,070 --> 01:20:01,310
and I was deeply gratified, but
I was to tell you the truth, I

1268
01:20:01,310 --> 01:20:05,190
was frankly surprised.
You know, I really, I really, I

1269
01:20:05,190 --> 01:20:07,470
would never have thought that
Tom Nagle would say no.

1270
01:20:07,470 --> 01:20:11,190
Actually, I think we are making
progress toward a physical

1271
01:20:11,590 --> 01:20:15,150
theory of of of experience.
You know that's that's that's

1272
01:20:15,150 --> 01:20:18,150
really news well as well I just
want to say.

1273
01:20:18,710 --> 01:20:20,510
Congrats if that comes out of
Tom's mouth.

1274
01:20:20,510 --> 01:20:22,870
It must have been surreal in the
moment.

1275
01:20:23,450 --> 01:20:25,130
Yeah, it was.
It really was.

1276
01:20:25,290 --> 01:20:27,730
I mean, but even from my own
experience, Mark, when I speak

1277
01:20:27,730 --> 01:20:30,890
to when I spoke to Carl first,
when I spoke to these other guys

1278
01:20:30,890 --> 01:20:35,650
about your work, if there's
clearly a huge respect for it,

1279
01:20:35,650 --> 01:20:37,850
there's these guys clearly
understand it.

1280
01:20:37,850 --> 01:20:40,090
They know what you're talking
about and they think the

1281
01:20:40,090 --> 01:20:44,290
approach is, is a good approach.
It's not one that they're

1282
01:20:44,290 --> 01:20:46,810
discounting when they discuss
these matters.

1283
01:20:48,130 --> 01:20:53,420
Yes, that's that's.
No, I really I think that it's

1284
01:20:53,420 --> 01:20:58,220
true to say that it is gaining
traction and but it's also true

1285
01:20:58,220 --> 01:21:01,540
to say that it wasn't the case
initially.

1286
01:21:01,660 --> 01:21:05,700
You know, it's because I also,
at the time when I remember when

1287
01:21:05,700 --> 01:21:07,420
I first started the part,
because there were some people

1288
01:21:07,420 --> 01:21:11,260
who think because I think they
tend to associate your viewpoint

1289
01:21:11,260 --> 01:21:15,700
at this point with just an
ancient brain and there's almost

1290
01:21:15,700 --> 01:21:19,260
a negative connotation to saying
those words as if you're you're

1291
01:21:19,260 --> 01:21:21,380
talking about something ancient
in itself.

1292
01:21:21,500 --> 01:21:24,460
But yeah, no.
And I understand.

1293
01:21:24,460 --> 01:21:29,100
Where that comes from, you know,
it's because in fact, I must say

1294
01:21:29,100 --> 01:21:32,340
I blame Paul McLean for that.
You know, this whole thing about

1295
01:21:32,340 --> 01:21:36,420
the triune brain, that, you
know, that there's this kind of

1296
01:21:36,420 --> 01:21:41,020
cartoon idea that there's a
reptilian brain, you know, sort

1297
01:21:41,020 --> 01:21:44,420
of trapped inside of our inside
of our brains now.

1298
01:21:44,700 --> 01:21:47,380
So I want to make clear that
when I say ancient.

1299
01:21:47,750 --> 01:21:50,550
What I mean is find a
genetically ancient in the sense

1300
01:21:50,550 --> 01:21:55,830
that because we had, because all
vertebrates have the

1301
01:21:55,830 --> 01:21:58,630
architecture of the upper brain
stem that I'm talking about,

1302
01:21:58,630 --> 01:22:02,270
because we share with all
vertebrates A reticular

1303
01:22:02,270 --> 01:22:05,310
activating system and a
periaqueductal Gray, that means

1304
01:22:05,310 --> 01:22:08,350
we have a common ancestor that
had that structure.

1305
01:22:08,910 --> 01:22:12,670
The common ancestor of all
vertebrates is 550 million years

1306
01:22:12,670 --> 01:22:15,650
ago, so.
I'm talking about that guy, the

1307
01:22:15,650 --> 01:22:18,570
1500 and 50 million years ago.
That's what's ancient.

1308
01:22:18,570 --> 01:22:22,890
I'm saying that this structure
evolved and what that what that

1309
01:22:22,890 --> 01:22:26,570
means is that the dawn of
consciousness, if I'm right,

1310
01:22:26,570 --> 01:22:30,250
that this structure is what's
generating the the raw feeling.

1311
01:22:30,250 --> 01:22:32,890
You know, the basic, the most
elementary form of

1312
01:22:32,890 --> 01:22:36,730
consciousness, The dawn of
consciousness, was at least 500

1313
01:22:36,730 --> 01:22:41,210
at least. 550 million years ago.
That's what I mean by ancient.

1314
01:22:41,650 --> 01:22:45,410
I think there's there's a lot of
misinterpretations, but because

1315
01:22:45,410 --> 01:22:47,930
of the fact that you're going to
these conferences, you have

1316
01:22:47,930 --> 01:22:49,810
people like Tom Nagle now
obviously supporting you.

1317
01:22:49,810 --> 01:22:52,930
Hopefully people understand it
more or give it more time in

1318
01:22:52,930 --> 01:22:54,170
order to gain that
understanding.

1319
01:22:54,570 --> 01:22:56,570
Because I think that's a
fundamental approach is to

1320
01:22:56,610 --> 01:23:00,490
actually read your work, read
your papers and then draw a

1321
01:23:00,490 --> 01:23:04,130
better conclusion, yes.
I suppose the.

1322
01:23:04,980 --> 01:23:08,260
You know, the best thing that
can happen is that people read

1323
01:23:08,260 --> 01:23:09,980
your work and they're persuaded
by it.

1324
01:23:11,300 --> 01:23:15,460
The second, the second best or
middle thing out of three that

1325
01:23:15,460 --> 01:23:18,140
can happen is they read your
work and they disagree with you

1326
01:23:18,140 --> 01:23:20,820
and they reject it.
The worst thing that can happen

1327
01:23:20,820 --> 01:23:22,780
is that they just ignore it
completely.

1328
01:23:23,140 --> 01:23:29,060
So you know even even when you
initially get negative push

1329
01:23:29,060 --> 01:23:31,050
back.
At least it's not just

1330
01:23:31,050 --> 01:23:33,130
completely overlooked.
Yes, you know it's true.

1331
01:23:33,130 --> 01:23:36,970
It's sometimes naming a theory
well gives it that that that

1332
01:23:36,970 --> 01:23:39,850
that negative pushback you need.
So like sometimes saying things

1333
01:23:39,850 --> 01:23:42,690
like the ancient Brain is like
Keith Frankish, your den at

1334
01:23:42,690 --> 01:23:45,490
saying it's an illusion.
It helps with the name that

1335
01:23:45,490 --> 01:23:49,690
Illusionism gives it, that push
that it it almost needs while

1336
01:23:49,690 --> 01:23:52,290
you're on that.
Subject I know we're nearly out

1337
01:23:52,290 --> 01:23:56,610
of time, but I want to, I want
to say something else about

1338
01:23:56,610 --> 01:24:02,670
feeling, which is that.
Unlike perception, it cannot be

1339
01:24:02,670 --> 01:24:08,390
an illusion.
You you you can't say you you

1340
01:24:08,390 --> 01:24:11,070
are currently having the
illusion that you're in pain.

1341
01:24:12,190 --> 01:24:14,470
You you you you just are in
pain.

1342
01:24:15,110 --> 01:24:19,830
You you can't say that you
having the illusion that you're

1343
01:24:20,190 --> 01:24:23,310
sad.
You might say you have no good

1344
01:24:23,310 --> 01:24:25,910
reason to be sad, but still you
sad.

1345
01:24:26,430 --> 01:24:29,990
And I think that that's also
important, you know that when we

1346
01:24:30,190 --> 01:24:36,510
when we speak about about what
do we mean by consciousness as

1347
01:24:36,510 --> 01:24:41,510
an illusion or I think it's not.
This doesn't have exactly the

1348
01:24:41,510 --> 01:24:46,110
same meaning when you speak
about an illusion that the brain

1349
01:24:46,110 --> 01:24:49,550
constructs its own sort of out
of its own ingredients.

1350
01:24:49,550 --> 01:24:53,710
It constructs the illusion of a
three-dimensional world out

1351
01:24:53,710 --> 01:24:56,350
there with colors that actually
the colors.

1352
01:24:56,430 --> 01:25:01,270
A product of your brain rather
than a property of the world and

1353
01:25:01,710 --> 01:25:04,910
feeling because it's about
yourself.

1354
01:25:04,990 --> 01:25:09,510
It just is what it is.
You can't have illusory

1355
01:25:09,510 --> 01:25:11,470
feelings.
And yeah, cuz I was just about

1356
01:25:11,470 --> 01:25:14,630
to say it's almost like the
argument of illusionism can't

1357
01:25:14,630 --> 01:25:17,710
work against your view of
consciousness because it's

1358
01:25:17,710 --> 01:25:19,590
fundamentally talking about
different things because the

1359
01:25:20,070 --> 01:25:23,070
illusion is come at it from a
very much cortical perspective

1360
01:25:23,070 --> 01:25:26,510
in the 1st place.
So yes, now I realize while

1361
01:25:26,510 --> 01:25:29,190
we're speaking about.
This that I didn't address a

1362
01:25:29,190 --> 01:25:32,470
point you made earlier and it
suddenly becomes relevant again.

1363
01:25:32,470 --> 01:25:35,430
Now you said.
What did I mean when I say that?

1364
01:25:35,670 --> 01:25:39,550
That that perception
contextualizes affect.

1365
01:25:40,670 --> 01:25:43,550
And this is exactly the right
place to come back to that.

1366
01:25:43,550 --> 01:25:48,990
So how it works is that you have
the feeling that's just, that is

1367
01:25:48,990 --> 01:25:53,150
just the consciousness.
Then it's a matter of what that

1368
01:25:53,350 --> 01:25:56,990
what, what is causing that
feeling and what can I do about

1369
01:25:56,990 --> 01:26:00,390
that feeling.
So I like to use this terminal

1370
01:26:00,390 --> 01:26:04,990
this this wording, but of course
I'm translating something into

1371
01:26:04,990 --> 01:26:09,960
words that is not verbal.
It is first of all the creature

1372
01:26:10,160 --> 01:26:12,720
feels like this.
It's just RAW feeling.

1373
01:26:12,720 --> 01:26:16,560
I feel like this and then
secondly it's a matter of I feel

1374
01:26:16,560 --> 01:26:22,560
like this about that and so the
and so the affect is as it were

1375
01:26:22,680 --> 01:26:27,720
applied to the context within
which it's within which it's

1376
01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:29,240
occurring.
So this.

1377
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:32,760
So it's these things that are
making me feel like this and

1378
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:35,520
it's there that I can do
something about this feeling.

1379
01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:39,200
And so this is what I mean when
I say we feel our way into our

1380
01:26:39,560 --> 01:26:42,600
cognitions and we feel our way
into our perceptions.

1381
01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:45,440
Yeah.
It is approach.

1382
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:47,040
Yeah.
So.

1383
01:26:47,040 --> 01:26:51,760
So the the you said it's good to
have a catch phrase, catchy

1384
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:54,040
phrase.
You said it's good to have a

1385
01:26:54,040 --> 01:26:57,680
controversial one, but I was
somebody recently wrote a.

1386
01:26:58,470 --> 01:27:01,350
A review of different theories
of consciousness and they wanted

1387
01:27:01,430 --> 01:27:05,590
me to tell them what's my theory
called, you know, So I said I'm

1388
01:27:05,590 --> 01:27:09,390
calling it the felt uncertainty.
It's the felt uncertainty

1389
01:27:09,390 --> 01:27:12,590
theory.
And I think that that's another

1390
01:27:12,590 --> 01:27:14,430
way in which you can put what
I've just said.

1391
01:27:14,430 --> 01:27:17,260
Now it's like I'm.
You know, it's like it's like

1392
01:27:17,500 --> 01:27:19,500
the common currency is
uncertainty.

1393
01:27:19,500 --> 01:27:24,220
It's like I feel like this.
In other words, I'm, I'm, I'm,

1394
01:27:24,340 --> 01:27:27,620
I'm not in a state of certainty.
Otherwise you wouldn't be

1395
01:27:27,620 --> 01:27:30,380
feeling the feeling.
Always remember is a deviation

1396
01:27:30,380 --> 01:27:33,540
from homeostasis.
And then it's a matter of you

1397
01:27:33,540 --> 01:27:38,820
know, so you apply that
uncertainty to your, to your

1398
01:27:38,820 --> 01:27:42,260
actions, feeling your way
through is this working?

1399
01:27:42,260 --> 01:27:43,780
Is that working?
Is this working?

1400
01:27:43,780 --> 01:27:45,180
Is that working?
You know, so it's.

1401
01:27:45,960 --> 01:27:54,080
It's a matter of affects sort of
you pulpate your confidence in

1402
01:27:54,080 --> 01:27:58,320
your current action program on
the basis of whether or not it

1403
01:27:58,320 --> 01:28:01,160
is moving the needle in the
right direction effectively.

1404
01:28:01,160 --> 01:28:05,600
So so it's it's.
I like to put it like, in fact

1405
01:28:05,600 --> 01:28:07,600
it was called to put it like
this, He said.

1406
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:11,960
That if things are turning out
as expected on the basis of my

1407
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:14,920
actions, if things are turning
out as expected, that's good.

1408
01:28:15,480 --> 01:28:17,640
And if uncertainty prevails,
that's bad.

1409
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:20,040
OK, yeah.
So it's sort of.

1410
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:23,000
It allows you to gauge the
environment and interact with it

1411
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:27,920
in a very successful manner, and
to maintain homeostatic in order

1412
01:28:27,920 --> 01:28:30,760
to maintain homeostasis.
Sorry, put it to maintain

1413
01:28:30,760 --> 01:28:32,210
homeostasis.
The felt.

1414
01:28:32,330 --> 01:28:34,410
Well, you call it the felt
uncertainty principle.

1415
01:28:35,050 --> 01:28:36,490
Yeah, it's.
It's.

1416
01:28:36,570 --> 01:28:38,010
Quite a nice.
I was thinking about it as well

1417
01:28:38,010 --> 01:28:39,450
before coming into this
conversation.

1418
01:28:39,450 --> 01:28:43,530
How call has one of his papers.
He calls it I I am therefore I

1419
01:28:43,530 --> 01:28:45,930
think Kevin Mitchell has I feel
therefore I am.

1420
01:28:45,930 --> 01:28:48,570
I mean I move therefore I am and
you could make it.

1421
01:28:48,850 --> 01:28:50,690
I feel therefore I am is another
one.

1422
01:28:51,570 --> 01:28:54,450
Just to just to add that to the
to the lecture series in the

1423
01:28:54,450 --> 01:28:59,280
future before we finish.
One last thing about this The

1424
01:28:59,280 --> 01:29:02,120
conference was about AI.
Anything you want to add about

1425
01:29:02,200 --> 01:29:05,080
feeling and artificial
intelligence and the

1426
01:29:05,080 --> 01:29:09,080
implications for the future?
Yes, I am.

1427
01:29:09,080 --> 01:29:14,600
Working with a team of
physicists and and roboticists

1428
01:29:14,600 --> 01:29:21,360
and and computer scientists on
an an artificial consciousness.

1429
01:29:21,840 --> 01:29:26,360
We've been at it for about two
years and we we've got some good

1430
01:29:26,360 --> 01:29:30,850
funding from the.
Up and armors by the way and

1431
01:29:32,130 --> 01:29:36,610
we're we're not going into our
second phase and you know I, I,

1432
01:29:36,690 --> 01:29:41,010
I I'm really very optimistic
about what we're doing there.

1433
01:29:41,810 --> 01:29:46,090
We're trying because we believe
that we've isolated at least in

1434
01:29:46,090 --> 01:29:48,370
broad outline the causal
mechanism.

1435
01:29:48,370 --> 01:29:52,290
You know how how feelings are
generated, how and why they're

1436
01:29:52,290 --> 01:29:56,010
generated, if you've if you've
done that.

1437
01:29:56,570 --> 01:29:59,330
If you really have done that,
then you should be able to

1438
01:29:59,850 --> 01:30:02,770
engineer it.
In fact, it was Richard Feynman

1439
01:30:02,770 --> 01:30:05,850
who said right at the end of his
life it was found on his, on his

1440
01:30:05,850 --> 01:30:08,490
blackboard.
If I can't create it, I don't

1441
01:30:08,490 --> 01:30:11,010
understand it.
And so, you know, this is what

1442
01:30:11,010 --> 01:30:12,490
we're trying to do.
We're saying, well, if this

1443
01:30:12,490 --> 01:30:15,570
really is the mechanism, then we
should be able to engineer

1444
01:30:16,330 --> 01:30:19,730
artificial feelings.
Remember, we're not creating a

1445
01:30:19,730 --> 01:30:25,090
living thing, we're creating an
artificial agent.

1446
01:30:25,630 --> 01:30:28,950
That has exactly the mechanisms
I was describing to you earlier

1447
01:30:28,950 --> 01:30:32,030
about different needs and having
to balance those needs, and they

1448
01:30:32,030 --> 01:30:35,830
are intrinsically valence to and
for that agent and they are

1449
01:30:35,830 --> 01:30:38,110
categorically distinct and etc
etc.

1450
01:30:38,110 --> 01:30:41,230
And then this should be able to
display the kinds of behaviors

1451
01:30:41,230 --> 01:30:43,670
that I was describing to you,
the way you can feel your way

1452
01:30:43,670 --> 01:30:46,470
through a problem, come up with
novel solutions that should

1453
01:30:46,990 --> 01:30:50,720
display voluntary behaviors.
And it should be able to survive

1454
01:30:50,920 --> 01:30:52,960
in unpredicted environments and
so on.

1455
01:30:52,960 --> 01:30:54,920
So these are the sorts of things
we're doing.

1456
01:30:55,160 --> 01:30:59,440
And I really do believe it's a
matter and not of whether but

1457
01:30:59,440 --> 01:31:02,760
when we'll we'll succeed with
that.

1458
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:06,240
It's another story about how do
you persuade your colleagues,

1459
01:31:06,280 --> 01:31:08,600
you know that the problem of
other minds and all of that is

1460
01:31:08,600 --> 01:31:12,080
not a small thing.
What what we are going to be

1461
01:31:12,080 --> 01:31:15,840
doing is having a symposium with
interest parties where we must.

1462
01:31:16,530 --> 01:31:19,610
Determine in advance what will
be acceptable criteria.

1463
01:31:19,610 --> 01:31:23,250
You can't say there's no way
that you will ever persuade me

1464
01:31:23,250 --> 01:31:25,010
at all.
You have to say, well, what will

1465
01:31:25,010 --> 01:31:30,490
persuade you?
And then the ethics of that we

1466
01:31:30,490 --> 01:31:33,810
must always, always, always keep
very clear in our minds.

1467
01:31:34,290 --> 01:31:37,770
That there the ethical there's
two sets of ethical problems.

1468
01:31:37,770 --> 01:31:42,130
The one is, you know, that one
that people most frequently

1469
01:31:42,290 --> 01:31:46,370
refer to is, but you're going to
create these super intelligent

1470
01:31:46,890 --> 01:31:49,130
creatures that are trying to
survive, that they're going to

1471
01:31:49,130 --> 01:31:51,210
compete with us.
And you know that's bad for us.

1472
01:31:51,570 --> 01:31:56,290
But we must also remember that
if you create an artificial

1473
01:31:56,610 --> 01:32:03,310
consciousness, if it feels.
Then it can suffer and you have

1474
01:32:03,310 --> 01:32:06,390
to be very careful about what
are you producing here, you

1475
01:32:06,390 --> 01:32:08,550
know?
And it's all of the problems

1476
01:32:08,950 --> 01:32:13,110
that we have in animal research
become relevant then to this

1477
01:32:13,110 --> 01:32:16,270
sort of research too.
Mark, I'm sorry, I don't know

1478
01:32:16,270 --> 01:32:18,310
how much time you have left, but
I'm so curious to know how does

1479
01:32:18,310 --> 01:32:20,950
one even approach this?
How do you even start building

1480
01:32:20,950 --> 01:32:22,470
this sort of artificial
complexity?

1481
01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:26,960
Well, you start with the
formalisms.

1482
01:32:26,960 --> 01:32:31,760
That was Carl and I published a
paper in 2018.

1483
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:36,240
You know, he published that
brilliant paper in 2013 called

1484
01:32:36,240 --> 01:32:39,840
Life as We Know It.
And there he reduced to

1485
01:32:39,840 --> 01:32:44,110
formalisms.
The mechanisms of fundamentally

1486
01:32:44,110 --> 01:32:46,550
it was the mechanisms of
homeostasis, that's what,

1487
01:32:46,750 --> 01:32:50,230
because the whole mechanism of
self organization is what

1488
01:32:50,230 --> 01:32:52,830
underwrites the mechanism of
homeostasis.

1489
01:32:52,830 --> 01:32:56,630
When he says life as we know it,
I mean homeostasis is the

1490
01:32:56,630 --> 01:33:00,430
mechanism of life as we know it.
It's it's what distinguishes

1491
01:33:00,430 --> 01:33:03,300
living things.
So what was I saying?

1492
01:33:03,300 --> 01:33:07,180
You're so, so that the
formalisms that he developed to

1493
01:33:07,180 --> 01:33:11,380
explain homeostasis, we extended
those formalisms.

1494
01:33:11,930 --> 01:33:15,890
To explain felt homeostasis in
our 2018 paper.

1495
01:33:16,210 --> 01:33:21,850
And then, you know, I got this
team together and we using those

1496
01:33:21,850 --> 01:33:25,930
to develop that formalism, to
develop algorithms, to create

1497
01:33:25,930 --> 01:33:29,250
artificial agents that have
homeostatic needs in order for

1498
01:33:29,250 --> 01:33:32,810
them to continue to survive.
It's just a simple mechanical

1499
01:33:32,890 --> 01:33:36,330
unpacking of this thing.
It's creating exactly those

1500
01:33:36,330 --> 01:33:39,770
dynamics.
In an artificial agent and

1501
01:33:40,170 --> 01:33:44,530
creating an environment within
which we can have the sorts of

1502
01:33:45,930 --> 01:33:48,690
dynamics that we need, in other
words changing.

1503
01:33:49,090 --> 01:33:54,010
So the agent has to meet various
needs of its own, like power

1504
01:33:54,010 --> 01:33:58,770
supply and all of that, and then
the resources where they are, we

1505
01:33:58,770 --> 01:34:00,490
move them around once it's
learnt.

1506
01:34:00,890 --> 01:34:03,090
Okay.
This is this is how if I do this

1507
01:34:03,090 --> 01:34:05,290
I can survive.
Then we change it, you know and

1508
01:34:05,290 --> 01:34:08,970
then we and then we created
situations where it's not just a

1509
01:34:08,970 --> 01:34:12,890
matter of exploiting resources
but also there's a hill that it

1510
01:34:12,890 --> 01:34:14,650
can go up and have a look
around.

1511
01:34:14,810 --> 01:34:17,850
We want to see does it realize
that if I go up there, I see

1512
01:34:17,850 --> 01:34:20,930
that I see.
So it's that's sort of roughly

1513
01:34:20,930 --> 01:34:27,710
where we are now we're we're.
We've got a long way to go, but

1514
01:34:27,790 --> 01:34:30,990
a major part of the next phase
that we're going to do is to

1515
01:34:30,990 --> 01:34:35,230
have multiple agents so they
where they have to interact with

1516
01:34:35,230 --> 01:34:38,790
each other and they have to,
they have to make inferences

1517
01:34:38,790 --> 01:34:45,910
about each other's mental
processes as part of the same

1518
01:34:45,910 --> 01:34:47,350
thing.
That's super exciting.

1519
01:34:49,380 --> 01:34:51,500
I'm sorry about the
interruption, but.

1520
01:34:51,500 --> 01:34:54,220
I'm going to have to go.
It was really great talking to

1521
01:34:54,220 --> 01:34:55,420
you again, Taran.
OK.

1522
01:34:55,420 --> 01:34:58,420
It's been a pleasure always.
And uh, thank you so much for.

1523
01:34:58,420 --> 01:34:59,780
I know you don't like to call it
around too.

1524
01:34:59,780 --> 01:35:03,420
It sounds like a boxing match,
but hopefully there's around a

1525
01:35:03,540 --> 01:35:06,020
minute ago as you continue on
this amazing journey.

1526
01:35:06,020 --> 01:35:07,740
Thanks again more.
Thank you so much.

1527
01:35:07,740 --> 01:35:10,380
Thanks for your interest.
In your time, always, always

1528
01:35:10,540 --> 01:35:11,420
pleasure cheers.