Manil Suri: Can We Build The Universe Using Only Math? The Big Bang Of Numbers

1
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:12,000
Monil, something I often think
about.

2
00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:17,960
This is a question I think is
best for you, and it's Why is

3
00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:22,400
mathematics, something invented
by humans, so universally

4
00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:24,720
applicable to the reality around
us?

5
00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,160
Well, that's a very difficult
question.

6
00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:34,440
It's being it's it's something
that's being debated, maybe all

7
00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:41,120
the way from Plato, certainly
all the way from 1960 when the

8
00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:47,360
Nobel Prize winner Eugene Wigner
talked about the unreasonable

9
00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,760
effectiveness of mathematics.
And what he was saying was, hey,

10
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,320
this is something made-up by
humans.

11
00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,280
And why does it keep popping up?
Why does it explain nature so

12
00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,720
well?
Why does it explain physics so

13
00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,959
well?
And there's no complete answer

14
00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,320
to that question.
People have, you know, managed

15
00:01:08,320 --> 00:01:11,800
to whittle it down and give
various examples and so on.

16
00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,200
But it's it's always.
It's one of those mysteries of

17
00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:19,160
mathematics and and by the
unreasonable effectiveness, what

18
00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,480
I mean is.
Things that were, you know,

19
00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,480
mathematics has been around
forever.

20
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,680
Think back to the the ancient
Greeks from antiquity.

21
00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,680
They came up with conic
sections, for instance, and

22
00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,920
ellipses and so on.
And you know, various things in

23
00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,600
geometry.
And then years later, ellipses

24
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:46,000
for example, were used by Kepler
to figure out how planetary

25
00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,800
motion works.
Now, why would something so

26
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,880
abstract?
And so unrelated happened to

27
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:58,440
actually have an effect on
something so, so real for us so,

28
00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,880
so we are directly out of the
and this this kind of thing

29
00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,040
happens over and over again.
I mean I can give you many

30
00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,639
examples.
A big example is group theory.

31
00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,960
Completely abstract, you know,
looking at mathematical

32
00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:16,840
structures.
It's certainly helps describe

33
00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:21,760
symmetry very well.
And that's why again you know

34
00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:27,320
decades later, maybe a few
centuries later in fact in terms

35
00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,160
of quantum mechanics the the the
way that particles are

36
00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:36,440
distributed, the symmetries that
once sees in that they turn out

37
00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:42,320
to be very nicely described by
quantum theory the the by by

38
00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,560
group theory.
I'm sorry the the the one thing

39
00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:53,040
that I use in my book is.
How the so-called non Euclidean

40
00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:57,680
geometries or curved geometries?
The simplest example is just a

41
00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:03,080
sphere, but these curved
geometries they do not.

42
00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,920
They do not follow the rules
that Euclid laid down again many

43
00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:12,600
years ago, many decades ago,
centuries ago, and these were

44
00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:18,200
again completely.
Abstracted by people like Gauss

45
00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:24,080
and a whole bunch of Russian
geometers who in the 19th

46
00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,760
century started examining these
things, What would happen if you

47
00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:33,040
created what about trees?
Or elliptic trees where space is

48
00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,960
actually curved?
And again, they were something

49
00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:43,000
that completely abstract.
These people had no idea and no

50
00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,080
desire to really apply them in
any case.

51
00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:51,720
And then along comes Einstein,
maybe 60 or 70 years later, and

52
00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,120
figures out that, hey, this is
the perfect thing to explain

53
00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,120
gravitation and show that our
space-time is actually curved.

54
00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,880
So you know, that's that's the
mystery in all of this.

55
00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,320
I think you you do such a
fantastic job at explaining all

56
00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,120
these complex phenomena in your
book.

57
00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:11,280
And I'll put a link to that in
the description.

58
00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,720
But over the years you've also
done so much work within the

59
00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,880
fiction side of life.
I mean you you found a great way

60
00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,040
to fuse these two hobbies slash
jobs of yours.

61
00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,160
How do you think you've?
Been able to do this so

62
00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,520
successfully as a novelist and a
mathematician.

63
00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,040
I mean these are very diverse
and different fields.

64
00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,880
And you agree with.
Yeah, I I agree that they are

65
00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,120
different.
But and and that's what's got me

66
00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:37,000
started.
Because.

67
00:04:42,660 --> 00:04:47,660
OK, when I was first started as
a assistant professor, I was

68
00:04:47,660 --> 00:04:51,260
told, hey, you need to really
concentrate just on mathematics,

69
00:04:51,260 --> 00:04:54,620
you know, otherwise people won't
think you're serious and so on.

70
00:04:55,700 --> 00:04:59,340
And so I was very careful to put
my nose in the book.

71
00:05:01,580 --> 00:05:04,300
You know, another dimension sort
of like what you have, you're

72
00:05:04,300 --> 00:05:07,700
you're doing this even though
you you do medicine and so on.

73
00:05:08,060 --> 00:05:10,940
So I think we all can benefit
with something that's completely

74
00:05:10,940 --> 00:05:12,920
different.
I have to be very careful.

75
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:17,080
I wanted to get tenure, so I was
completely tight lipped about

76
00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,400
this.
I used to go, I used to live in

77
00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,120
Baltimore, but I used to go to
Washington to go to a lot

78
00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,600
writing group there and started
doing fiction, writing fiction

79
00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,200
just as a another dimension, as
something completely separate

80
00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:35,840
from my mathematical life.
And I started really getting

81
00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:39,320
into it, into my first novel,
which is the death of Vishnu

82
00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,000
and.
You know, one summer I went away

83
00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,000
to a writing colony but told
everyone at school, hey, I'm

84
00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,360
working on a calculus book.
And when I came back they asked

85
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,600
me, can we can we read it,
whatever.

86
00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,080
And I said no, it didn't go
well.

87
00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,120
I'll have to go again next year.
So it was the first time people

88
00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,360
really found out about it was an
excerpt was published in The New

89
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,440
Yorker the year before my book
was released.

90
00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:09,200
And so there's a lot of surprise
that, you know, I've been doing

91
00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:14,440
this, but it was a lot of fun
because it really got me meeting

92
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,080
people that I wouldn't have
otherwise.

93
00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,360
So I think that was the biggest
thrill of all.

94
00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,040
And and I mean, there's clearly
a theme.

95
00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,480
I mean, even in your trilogy, I
mean get the visionary and then

96
00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,280
you got your book, Big Bang of
Numbers.

97
00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:28,280
There's there's this overarching
element of the greatest.

98
00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,960
Story ever told which is the
universe and its creation or its

99
00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,200
design?
I mean, the word design doesn't

100
00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,960
really work well in this
context, but is that something

101
00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,320
that intrigued you from the very
beginning, just this bigger

102
00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:45,520
picture?
Well, I think the Vishnu idea

103
00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:50,160
came because there was an actual
person named Vishnu who died in

104
00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,600
my building and so that was the
spark that really started that

105
00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,440
book.
And I was just going to write

106
00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,040
something, you know, kind of
about the building and its

107
00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,400
inhabitants and so on.
And then I was taking a writing

108
00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,160
class and the instructor said,
hey, if you're going to name

109
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:11,080
your main character Vishnu,
that's a loaded word because

110
00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:15,120
Vishnu is in Hinduism.
He's the God of, you know, he's

111
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,040
the, he's the caretaker of the
universe.

112
00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,120
So you can't just call in Vishnu
and let it go at that.

113
00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:26,760
So that's when I started looking
into things and tied it to this

114
00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,920
idea of caretaking of the
universe, how it's built.

115
00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:34,160
So the building becomes a
metaphor for the universe, and

116
00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,120
then Vishnu becomes it's
unofficial caretaker, which he

117
00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,320
was in real life.
So that's what got me started on

118
00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,080
this.
And then of course the second

119
00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:44,920
book.
Well.

120
00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,840
Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma, they
form a Trinity in Hinduism.

121
00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,240
So I thought hey it's a good
idea I'm going to just write a

122
00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:57,600
trilogy and I told that to my
agent and then I thought maybe,

123
00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,920
you know that's that's really
committing myself too much.

124
00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:01,720
I I I need to go back to my
math.

125
00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,280
And I told told her don't tell
any of the publishers yet about

126
00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,360
that and she said no, no, no, I
have told all of them.

127
00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:09,920
So you are writing a trilogy
now?

128
00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,320
So I did write the age of Shiva,
which was the Shiva is the

129
00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,080
destroyer, and it was very
metaphorical in that.

130
00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:21,040
And then when it came to Brahma,
who's the creator, I realized

131
00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:27,920
that he's not really someone who
has the same kind of worship,

132
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,200
you know, the number of
worshippers as others do.

133
00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,799
And really it's Devi, the Mother
Goddess who is the third part of

134
00:08:34,799 --> 00:08:38,240
the trilogy in terms of how many
followers she has.

135
00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:40,600
So that's what became the city
of Devi.

136
00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,120
And after that trilogy was
complete, I said OK, now I can

137
00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:49,160
finally finish with this and go
back to mathematics and lo and

138
00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,800
behold, you know, it turned out
to be something that the, the

139
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,640
book that you're reading now is
very different from what I

140
00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,600
started with.
I've been working on it for 10

141
00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,280
years and it went through three
iterations.

142
00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,080
And I don't know, I guess I'm
just obsessed with this idea

143
00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,160
because, again, it turned out to
be.

144
00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,880
About about about the universe
and about creation and all these

145
00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,280
deep questions.
And it was, it was really great

146
00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,640
to be able to look at it first
in terms of mythology and now

147
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:22,600
look at it in terms of
mathematics.

148
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,520
And you know the intersection
between these two, the religion

149
00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:31,320
and the mythology that that was
great too, seeing how it

150
00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,080
interacted with mathematics.
And yeah, and the the various

151
00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,760
coincidences that occurred, like
one of the things that I've

152
00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,080
described in the middle
beginning of my book is that it

153
00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,920
followed originally from an
article I wrote for the New York

154
00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,000
Times.
And this article did very well

155
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,640
and it was, you know, most
e-mail for the day.

156
00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:54,120
Then it became third most e-mail
for the week, second most e-mail

157
00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,480
for the week.
And I was just poised to be the

158
00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,520
first most emailed for the week.
This was on a Saturday after it

159
00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,360
came out.
And suddenly the Pope started

160
00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,840
making these very progressive
statements about abortion and

161
00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,480
homosexuality and so on.
They came bounding from behind

162
00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,160
me and jumped over me and landed
in my number one spot.

163
00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:21,120
So as revenge, perhaps I'm not
as revenge.

164
00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,480
I'm happy with the Pope.
I even sent him a copy of the

165
00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,320
book.
But I I thought, OK, why not

166
00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,480
make him a character.
So he he ended up being a

167
00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,000
character.
And and this was this Pope is

168
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,360
very interesting because he
actually worked as a chemist for

169
00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,600
a while in in his early career
he worked in a chemical lab.

170
00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,680
So he has this connection with
science as well.

171
00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:44,800
So I constantly used him as a
mouthpiece to see what the

172
00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,320
difference was between the
religious side.

173
00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,760
And the mathematical side, the
scientific side, and perhaps the

174
00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,680
miracle side, if you like.
And and tell me, in your life

175
00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:57,480
growing up, was there ever a
point where you were religious

176
00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,760
or did you you felt like you did
commit to a sort of religious

177
00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,960
doctrine?
Oh yeah, my father was very

178
00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:05,800
religious.
Plus I went to a Catholic

179
00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,480
school.
And so, you know, we had our

180
00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,160
prayers and all, and I would do
all that every night.

181
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:15,560
And then around 15 or so, I just
kind of decided I'm going to my

182
00:11:15,560 --> 00:11:17,880
mother was always more
atheistic.

183
00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,960
So I said I'm going to just
forget about religion, you know,

184
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:22,800
I'm going to be a complete
atheist.

185
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,160
And then I guess being a
mathematician, I thought, you

186
00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,240
know, interested in mathematics.
I thought maybe that's too,

187
00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,680
that's too severe.
So let's be an agnostic.

188
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:39,680
So I modified my my stance.
So yeah, so I haven't really,

189
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,600
you know, since then I haven't
really been religious in the

190
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,440
traditional sense.
The first book, the death of

191
00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:51,520
Vishnu, I had to read various
texts like the Quran and the

192
00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:56,000
Bhagavad Gita and that that kind
of the spiritual aspect of that

193
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,000
I found very interesting and
very calming.

194
00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,680
But other than that, no, no
religious beliefs as such, but

195
00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:06,920
it's a but the mythology aspect
is very interesting to me.

196
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,240
I find, yeah, it's it's very
intriguing how that happens to

197
00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,880
quite a few people where they
they sort of leave that

198
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,040
religious dogma and then slowly
go through this hardcore atheist

199
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,560
phase and then eventually
transition back into a sort of

200
00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:23,880
spiritual, kind of quasi
religious view of the world.

201
00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,080
And it's usually something like
science or mathematics that

202
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,880
grounds this, the spirituality
at some point.

203
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,600
And you do this with
mathematics, dude.

204
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,600
Why do you feel that is?
Why do you think that's such a

205
00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:38,040
common pattern?
The the kind of in and out of

206
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:39,600
religion, no.
No, no.

207
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,960
In general, the way we were able
to ground mathematics and

208
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,280
science, because I find I'm very
similar in that regard, is the

209
00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,840
more always about the universe,
the more it is sort of religious

210
00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,920
to to listen to this story.
I mean this mathematical story

211
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,040
of the universe.
It is quite awe inspiring.

212
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,600
Yeah, it's it's, it's very
interesting because, you know,

213
00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,320
it's one of those things that we
are unlikely to get a complete

214
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,760
answer from anyone source.
So I certainly would like to

215
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,200
believe all the stuff that
scientists have come up with,

216
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,000
that physicists have come up
with The Big Bang and so on.

217
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,160
And I think that's, you know, a
rough model of what might have

218
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,160
happened.
But you always have this this

219
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,880
problem of you can keep going
backwards and keep asking, well

220
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,320
what was there before that or
who created that or how did that

221
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,880
happen.
And so it's a never ending chain

222
00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:33,720
and you can't really go back to
Ground Zero, it's it's ground

223
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,960
minus Infinity essentially.
So.

224
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:41,600
So I think that's where the
mathematics might actually, you

225
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,920
know, tell us something which is
that in math you always have to

226
00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,400
start with some axioms.
So you always have to start with

227
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:54,480
some assumptions and.
The reason for that is simply

228
00:13:54,560 --> 00:14:00,560
you have these terms, like
perhaps it's a set or a number

229
00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:05,240
or a point.
And these are undefinable terms

230
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,800
in the sense that you can't.
You can't break them up any

231
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,000
further, because otherwise
you'll keep describing things in

232
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,480
terms of other things, and then
you'll have to define those, and

233
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,080
so on.
So mathematicians.

234
00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,400
You know, logicians especially,
they're built up mathematics

235
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,400
starting with axioms.
So you have to start with some

236
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,520
assumptions.
And so that's the kind of

237
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:30,160
reassurance almost that you can
grab at as a mathematician that

238
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,960
OK, I'm going to start with this
set of assumptions and that's

239
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,600
it.
And I'm not going to go any

240
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,240
further trying to look at where
those start, where those came up

241
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,200
with, so.
So I think that's.

242
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,520
You know, once you take that
into account then you can start

243
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:52,040
building up things like I start
with with numbers, building it

244
00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,760
up from the empty set.
And this is, you know, this is

245
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:59,160
this ancient doctrine of Croatio
ex nihilo where you try to

246
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,520
create something out of nothing.
And religion certainly tries it

247
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,520
with limited success.
Physicists have tried it, But

248
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:11,960
again, there's always that well,
what happened before this so in

249
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,480
Matthew.
And I kind of say, hey, these

250
00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,680
are the cards I have, I'm gonna
do this trick and I'm not.

251
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,240
I'm not disguising it as
anything, but you have to start

252
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,240
with something.
But do you think that?

253
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,760
So I mean we're we have to have
this sort of axiomatic start

254
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:29,400
where we have to make this basic
assumption.

255
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:31,880
Do you think then that leaves
too much room for error though

256
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,240
that basic assumption?
Well, so here's the thing with

257
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,320
math.
Again, math is completely

258
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,800
agnostic.
It's it's it allows this

259
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,120
possibility of error.
Says that hey, you know, if you

260
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,080
start with some other
assumptions you will get some

261
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:53,720
other system of mathematics.
So it's it's kind of hard to

262
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,600
every time you use mathematics
you come up with a model and

263
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:03,000
then that's the model.
If it fits your idea of reality

264
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,200
or the universe, that's great.
If it doesn't.

265
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,480
OK, try something else.
So I think that's one of the

266
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,120
kind of nice things that you
might say it's it's not really

267
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,760
pinpointing things, but that's
one of the advantages of of the

268
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,320
subject I think.
Yeah.

269
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,280
No, I I think I I completely
agree.

270
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,600
So I've I've written a a bunch
of questions based on not only

271
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,600
the book, but some of the
papers, the one you also sent

272
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,320
me.
There's there's so much work to

273
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,360
discuss, but I tried to narrow
it down as much as possible.

274
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,040
So you've already touched on the
creation X now.

275
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,640
Hello.
Just creation out of nothing.

276
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:38,560
What?
What I want to ask you is why

277
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,000
does the universe have patterns
in the 1st place?

278
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,000
I mean, why isn't it as
amorphous or unstructured as

279
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,360
we'd assume it is?
Yeah, I mean, that's a great

280
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,960
question.
And again, this is where

281
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:59,560
questions like the almost quasi
religious kinds of questions

282
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,000
come in.
Where?

283
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,720
Why is that?
Why don't you just have

284
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:05,839
something completely
undifferentiated?

285
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,079
Now physicists will tell you
that it's because of the weak

286
00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:11,800
force and the strong force and,
you know, all those other

287
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,400
effects that started occurring
right after The Big Bang.

288
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,839
And that's just one theory.
There are many other theories.

289
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,440
Religious people will say, hey,
well, that's what God did.

290
00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,720
You know, he started with the
chaos and then got the universe

291
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:32,000
out of that.
Mathematicians will look at it a

292
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,440
little differently.
They will look at things like

293
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,320
randomness and, you know, say
that hey, even out of

294
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:45,440
randomness, a simple kind of
algorithm, even if there's a

295
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,960
little spark somewhere,
something going on, you're going

296
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,800
to somehow see some structure
from that.

297
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,680
And that's kind of the essence
of chaos, which isn't the same

298
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,120
thing as randomness.
Because chaos shows you that

299
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:04,560
even when things look completely
random, some things are

300
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:09,400
accumulating or occurring or
there's some sort of phenomena

301
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,720
which causes some order, some
structure.

302
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:17,200
And so that's, you know,
mathematics is full of examples

303
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,400
like that.
So I think that's the kind of,

304
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,560
you know, the spiritual side of
mathematics, if you will.

305
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,920
But this is a question that's.
That's more philosophical rather

306
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,200
than something that can really
be answered by any of these

307
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,520
fields.
I feel now I I agree and at some

308
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,640
point I mean this is far down.
But I also wrote if the universe

309
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,280
is constructed by math, which I
think we can go into more detail

310
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,120
if if you'd like, prior to the
answering this.

311
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:44,240
But then why is it so
inaccurate?

312
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,600
Mathematical as well, For the
most part.

313
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,480
We often find that like there's
there's a finiteness and there's

314
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,280
randomness.
How does all of this work?

315
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,640
I mean, is it infinite?
Is it purely random?

316
00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:58,680
Where do we?
Is it something that's purely

317
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,960
philosophical or do you think we
have the capacity to answer

318
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,800
these questions?
Well, I'm I'm honoured that you

319
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,000
would think a mathematician
would be able to answer these

320
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,640
questions.
So, you know, great theologians

321
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,680
and philosophers and so on have
tried so.

322
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,280
So let's see what what we can
talk about in terms of that.

323
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,400
Why?
Why is it?

324
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,080
Well, you asked a lot of
questions, so, so let's just

325
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,120
pick one.
Maybe you can just pick one.

326
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:32,560
And let's start with First,
let's talk about how a universe

327
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:38,320
can be constructed with men.
OK, So that's when you say the

328
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:43,000
universe.
Again, I would I would start

329
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,160
with just, you know nothing as I
do in my book and say that OK,

330
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,800
from nothing you can actually
construct the numbers.

331
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,680
And that's pretty standard.
It's a it's a something that can

332
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,800
be done quite easily using set
theory with a minimal amount of

333
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,000
assumptions.
So you have the numbers, let's

334
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:06,200
say, And then then the question
comes about geometry and already

335
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,240
you're on, you know, kind of
tricky ground because if you

336
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,920
look at religious texts, for
example, you know God creates

337
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,760
the universe, Brahma blows out
the universe in one breath and

338
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,760
things like that.
And there's always an assumption

339
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,000
that empty space is already
there and that you're you're

340
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,600
creating, you know, it's almost
like a stage, a matrix of

341
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,120
points.
And so God is filling this empty

342
00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:34,800
space.
But the question is, how did

343
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,240
that empty space come up with?
Where did it come up from

344
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,280
before, before any construction
has taken place?

345
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:47,200
And so I think mathematicians
are good at showing how this

346
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,480
empty space can actually be
constructed.

347
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,640
And you can do this with points.
If you have points.

348
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,880
If you have an infinite, and
we're coming to the infinite

349
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:58,440
question.
If you have an infinite number

350
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,760
of points, then you can create a
line, and this line can be

351
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,200
extended in both directions.
And if you have a line, maybe

352
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,960
you can duplicate it and then
create a plane from that.

353
00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:11,080
And once you have a plane, you
can stack these and you can get

354
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:16,480
create 3D space.
Physicists are actually pretty,

355
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,160
you know they don't.
They're not as cavalier as

356
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,720
people and religion about empty
space because they actually

357
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:27,240
point out like The Big Bang is
not an it's, it's not the

358
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:32,000
creation, it's not an expansion.
It's not a Big Bang in space,

359
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,760
it's a Big Bang off space.
So space is actually being

360
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,480
created.
So things are starting with a

361
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,360
little point and then things
proceed from there.

362
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:47,360
And as time evolves, so is space
actually being created And in

363
00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:51,440
terms of space, what is space?
Well, it's a way, it's a medium.

364
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,800
I don't know what you were
describing, but it's a way of

365
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,240
differentiating things.
So it's it's very tied in with

366
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,600
distance, but that's that's the
kind of view that physicists

367
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,840
would have.
The problem arises in terms of

368
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,240
finiteness and many other
things.

369
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,600
If you start talking about
finiteness versus infiniteness,

370
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,120
what do what evidence do we
have?

371
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:20,840
Well, as far as we can tell,
this is something.

372
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,720
Well, as far as we can tell, we
don't know even whether our

373
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,040
universe is actually just the
space aspect itself, whether

374
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,080
it's actually curved or it's
completely flat like Euclid

375
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:38,000
would have had it.
The best experimental evidence

376
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,080
suggests that it is completely
flat, up to, you know, a small

377
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,240
percentage of error.
That might say it's curved.

378
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,840
Notice that if it was curved as
a sphere, it would have to be

379
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,640
finite.
Sphere has a finite amount of

380
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,840
volume.
If it's flat, like a cube that's

381
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,200
expanding in all directions,
then it would be infinite.

382
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,600
Now whether it's infinite right
now or in the limit, that's

383
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,280
another question.
So you immediately come up with

384
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,520
all these questions that kind of
make the discussion very murky.

385
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,320
But but the nice thing about
mathematics is that it makes you

386
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,560
think about all these things
infinite versus not.

387
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:24,240
And and even in terms of a
sphere which is finite, you have

388
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,280
the question of OK, space
itself.

389
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,600
Is it corpuscular, is it
quantum?

390
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,840
You know, just just little
pieces which are discrete?

391
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,760
Is it discrete in some sense you
jump from one point to the other

392
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,600
and there's nothing in between.
Or is it continuous, in which

393
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,400
case you have a a continuity of
space?

394
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,840
Similarly time.
Do we experience time in tiny

395
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:57,160
kind of quantum instance, or is
it a continuous flow like a

396
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,680
straight line?
So yeah, there there are models

397
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,560
for all of these, and people
have come up with nice theories

398
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:10,560
for all of these, but it's very
hard to actually decide which

399
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:15,760
way reality has been patterned.
As as something that I mean, I

400
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,640
know you you start with this
with the basics of an empty set

401
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,920
and a note I made at that point
was what to you?

402
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,720
I mean it's pretty obvious, but
just for you to explain it to

403
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:32,000
us, why is the empty set an
equivalent an equivalence to

404
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,280
physical nothingness, let's say?
Why would you start as a with

405
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:40,160
that as your basic assumption?
Well, that's what mathematicians

406
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,040
do when they're constructing the
numbers.

407
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,880
I don't think they're really
making this equivalence that

408
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:53,200
I've tried to do in this book,
which is, you know, it's it's,

409
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,120
it's I I have to apologize for
being glib a little.

410
00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:02,000
Perhaps it's a finesse, it's a
trick because all of these

411
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,040
things, you know, all, all of
any creation theory always has a

412
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,120
trick to it.
So I make that quite clear in

413
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:11,680
the beginning.
I'm a magician performing a

414
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:12,760
trick.
So yeah.

415
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,800
So you have to make that leap of
faith that the two are

416
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,400
equivalent.
But in some sense, nothing is.

417
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,480
The empty set is the closest
thing.

418
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,720
It's it's the translation of
nothing into mathematics.

419
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,640
You know, that's I can't think
of anything simpler than that.

420
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,920
So so that's that's the
equivalence.

421
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,840
That's my my defense.
I guess even the question is

422
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,440
pretty difficult to ask because
for me to even say physical

423
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,360
nothingness, it's almost very
oxymoronic.

424
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:43,120
Anyway, yes, yes, there's a
there's a paper I've read which

425
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:47,320
has like 11 different stages of
nothingness.

426
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,400
You know, there's there's
there's physical nothingness,

427
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,320
then there is mental
nothingness.

428
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,400
There's a nothingness where
there's no thought or any, and

429
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,160
there's a nothingness where
there are no laws.

430
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:03,160
So you know, you get more and
more progressively less and less

431
00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:06,360
in this nothingness.
So which one are you talking

432
00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:08,120
about?
We we need to go through that

433
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:11,800
entire list, I guess.
So at some point you mentioned

434
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,920
the role of nature in your model
and and how?

435
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,680
How is this word nature defined
differently in this context?

436
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,680
And why did you go with this
sort of definition in mind?

437
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,760
Yeah, so here I was trying to
create the whole universe using

438
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,680
only mathematics, and you know,
I did.

439
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,920
I did reasonably well with the
numbers.

440
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,280
And then the geometry also was
OK.

441
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,040
If you have a point, you can
kind of do that.

442
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:44,200
So then I got stuck.
Empty space is fine, but in

443
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,880
terms of really filling it with
anything, well, mathematics is

444
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,920
very abstract, as I said.
And it's impossible to just use

445
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,880
mathematics and come up with
something that's actually the

446
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:02,600
physical or real or concrete or
tangible, so that that gap

447
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,320
cannot be bridged by
mathematics.

448
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,680
You can't even create a little
particle just using mathematics.

449
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,000
You can create a model for it,
you can create the numbers for

450
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,400
it, the coordinates for it, but
not the actual particle.

451
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,120
So that's where nature came in.
I had, I had to have a had to

452
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:21,360
have something, some way of
progressing, and so I chose

453
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:25,280
nature.
Which, which you know in in in

454
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,760
Greek it's the word vices.
I think that's how it's

455
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,600
pronounced and that's where
physics comes from, comes from.

456
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,080
But it's also nature.
It's the, you know, mythological

457
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,080
form of nature as Mother Nature
and so on.

458
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:46,080
So it's a very interesting term
which can depending upon your

459
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:51,480
own beliefs or what you add to
that term, it can either be a

460
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,360
kind of religious term, a
goddess, a mythological figure

461
00:27:55,360 --> 00:28:00,760
or it can be purely scientific.
I just take nature.

462
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,040
I mean this is my definition.
I'm I'm trying to prove that the

463
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,760
whole world, the whole universe
basically is a model for

464
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,600
mathematics, that there's some
mathematical truth that drives

465
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,120
the universe and the universe is
a manifestation of that

466
00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:20,360
mathematics.
And so in my terminology, nature

467
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,080
is something the definition of
nature, which is very hard to do

468
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,520
to define nature.
But in my my terminology, it is

469
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:33,840
what is a force that converts
mathematical design into

470
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,160
reality.
So I kind of have to leave it at

471
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,120
that.
But there is this.

472
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,520
It's like a contractor I I give
you the plans of my house and

473
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,840
you build it.
And I don't really care how you

474
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,360
build it, if you use miracles or
something or you use pure

475
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,880
science, something that's
explainable by science.

476
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,800
But I'm just going to have to
assume that there is something

477
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,240
that actually converts
mathematics into physical

478
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,360
reality.
And that's where algebra comes

479
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,480
in, because I use algebra as the
language with which I can

480
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,120
specify what I want, and nature
follows that and is able to

481
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,240
build things.
Yeah, you see, you used to use

482
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:12,960
At some point in your paper you
wrote.

483
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,120
Nature is the force that
converts mathematical newprints

484
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,960
into physical reality, right?
Yes.

485
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,080
Yeah.
It's, I don't know.

486
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,840
If you do you want to briefly
just touch on like a brief

487
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,880
summary of how you go about with
each because in each chapter

488
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,440
you, I love the way you break
down the book into sort of the

489
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,640
seven days, kind of like the
great story and then you sort of

490
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,200
go into each mathematics.
Do you want to give like a brief

491
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:36,960
synopsis of?
Of what you do there.

492
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:38,360
Sure.
Yeah.

493
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:43,280
So the first day, day one is and
these days are capital D because

494
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,880
you know, they're the seven days
of creation according to

495
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,840
Genesis.
So day one is when you start

496
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,400
with nothing and you build up
the numbers and the numbers.

497
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,640
Then they you you build up
arithmetic too.

498
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,080
Like what?
What do these numbers do?

499
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,000
What are they good for?
So you build up all of

500
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,840
arithmetic and and we're not
just talking about 1234.

501
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:10,480
You can also start building up
other numbers like fractions and

502
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:15,440
irrational numbers and even
complex numbers and the complex

503
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,760
numbers which involve things
like sqrt -1.

504
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,120
They come in handy in day 2,
which is geometry.

505
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,440
Because the way I present
numbers in this book is to

506
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,080
motivate people.
I I give them kind of

507
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,440
personalities so they actually
interact with each other and

508
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,440
they're entities of some sort.
So in day two I'm building

509
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:43,040
geometry and again I need to
start with something and that

510
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,960
something is a point.
So once you have a point and you

511
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,880
can reproduce it, as I was
saying before, you can create

512
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,120
lines, you can create planes and
so on.

513
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:56,080
And if you just had the numbers
1 to, you know, just just the

514
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,240
real numbers as they're called,
you can just fit them very

515
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,280
easily on a straight line.
So the way I motivate geometry

516
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:08,480
is that these numbers want some
place to actually have a house

517
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,720
or a condo as I call it.
Each number needs its own condo

518
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,800
unit.
If you just had the regular

519
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,880
numbers, you just have a
straight line.

520
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,720
If you have the complex numbers,
you need to all the condom units

521
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,440
get filled with just the numbers
that we know of.

522
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,840
So when you start taking sqrt
-1, look at these other numbers

523
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,960
and they don't fit in anywhere.
And that's when you have to come

524
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,280
up with a second dimension.
So that's what motivates a

525
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,960
plane.
So that's day 2, and you know in

526
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:41,240
day 2 all sorts of ways of
creating space, including, and

527
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:46,360
this is something where I use
the idea of crocheting because

528
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,720
you can actually see how these
curved spaces can be created

529
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,160
with crochet.
So.

530
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,920
So day 2 looks at all these
different kinds of spaces and

531
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,960
then day three is algebra, where
you're now you have nature and

532
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,680
you're actually telling nature,
hey, I want this, this, this,

533
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,040
and you're expressing these
things with algebra.

534
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,120
And then the next thing is
patterns.

535
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,240
So therefore is building
patterns.

536
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,560
And this is something that you
know is is often you've got

537
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,840
people have probably seen things
about symmetry and things like

538
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,920
the golden ratio and a lot of
stuff like that.

539
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,520
And where does that come from?
And the way I'm presenting

540
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,920
things, it's almost like nature
is fascinated by some of these

541
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,440
patterns and then decides that
she wants to keep keep using

542
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,200
them.
So therefore is about patterns.

543
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,320
And one of the one of the things
that we really get into is

544
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,960
fractals, like, you know, very
complicated patterns that are

545
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,000
much harder to generate, but
with very simple formulas you

546
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,440
can generate them.
I actually wrote a note, so

547
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:54,840
sorry to disturb you.
Yeah, yeah.

548
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,200
It says talk to me about
fractals and tell me what they

549
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,200
tell us about the complexity
that arises from simplicity.

550
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,880
Yeah, that's that's a great
question and you know we'll

551
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,000
we'll still be talking about it
like 20 hours from now probably

552
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,200
if I really get into that.
But but the easy thing, the easy

553
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:18,280
answer is that if you and
there's so many examples.

554
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,160
If you if you have a triangle
for example, just take a

555
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:29,320
triangle and then take out is
middle 1/4 so you know 11

556
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:34,080
triangle, you can break it up
into one 2-3 and then central

557
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,080
piece.
If you take that out and then

558
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,400
you keep doing that for all the
triangles that are left, you'll

559
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,600
get something that's you know.
If you keep kept doing it an

560
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,600
infinite number of times, you
get something that you won't be

561
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,840
able to tell whether any part of
it was actually shaded in,

562
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,400
whether any part of this had an
actual area.

563
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,400
And that's the quintessential
property of a fractal.

564
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,440
You can't tell which dimension
it is in.

565
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,000
Is it A2 dimensional triangle
still, or is it something else?

566
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,800
You know because you've taken
out all the area.

567
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,440
So so and and the other thing
you'd notice is that there's a

568
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,440
lot of self similarity, like the
same pattern keeps getting

569
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:19,000
repeated at different scales.
So these are the 2 defining

570
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,719
characteristics of fractals.
And the fractals that we

571
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:29,320
encounter in nature often occur
because some sort of, some sort

572
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:35,440
of event or other process is
occurring over and over again at

573
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,000
different scales.
And the best example, I think,

574
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:45,239
is about the tides that come in
and keep chipping away at the

575
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,120
seashore.
So, you know, there'll be little

576
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,880
lapse of water that that just
take away a little bit off at a

577
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,400
time, but they'll also be giant
waves that break off chunks and

578
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,880
rocks and maybe the occasional
tsunami that, you know, really

579
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,320
does a lot of damage.
But if you think about all these

580
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:08,240
effects cumulatively over
several centuries, then what

581
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:10,160
happens is you get our
coastlines.

582
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:15,120
And because of the way this
force has been acting at

583
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,680
different scales, big scale
magnet, magnet, you know macro

584
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,360
scale and a micro scale, you'll
find that there are similarities

585
00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:27,840
that occur in terms of the
pattern that you find.

586
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,040
In other words, if you classical
thing is if you take a coastline

587
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:36,480
and expand and magnify, you
might see traces of the same

588
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,880
kind of shapes at different
scales.

589
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:41,280
So that's again an example of a
fractal.

590
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:48,440
So a lot of things occur in this
way, in this evolving way and

591
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,520
you can identify fractals by
this self similarity.

592
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,760
Notice that all these effects,
all these, you know, the tide

593
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,680
coming in and going out, it's a
very simple phenomenon.

594
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,240
You can express these in terms
of very simple formulas, and

595
00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:11,200
they then give you this
extremely complex surface or

596
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,480
coastline or whatever.
So that's, I think, a good

597
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:19,120
illustration about how very
simple things in mathematics can

598
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,240
lead to great complexity.
Yeah.

599
00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:24,320
And I think it's it's great to
start with that understanding

600
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,720
because then you can go forward
to sort of explain the creation

601
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:32,240
of life and in your view, I mean
in particularly with the context

602
00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:34,920
of this podcast.
How do we get from that?

603
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:39,240
From from sheer simplicity to
complexity of life and

604
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:40,840
thereafter maybe even
consciousness.

605
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:42,280
Unless you.
Yes.

606
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,600
Yeah.
I mean that's that's again, I

607
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,480
don't think, I mean whatever
I've read on this, I don't feel

608
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,920
that it's quite, you know,
airtight yet.

609
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:55,080
But I think there have been a
lot of strides made in terms of

610
00:36:55,080 --> 00:37:01,080
questions like how is how is how
is how, how does so.

611
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,280
So what I feel is true is that
mathematics gives us a model.

612
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,280
It doesn't actually explain how
life is going to come up come

613
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,040
about, it just gives us this
idea that you can get complexity

614
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,480
from very simple processes.
It also shows us how things can

615
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:22,880
happen in, in what is called an
emergent framework, that some of

616
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,200
these patterns just emerge.
You expect that, hey, you know,

617
00:37:27,720 --> 00:37:31,160
things will things need
somebody's things need a father

618
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,360
figure or a God or someone to be
sitting there and saying, OK,

619
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:35,840
I'm going to do this, this,
this, this.

620
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:41,040
But a lot of what we see is just
the way things are, the way

621
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,080
things have evolved, and that's
why things look the way they do.

622
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,680
Like mountains, for example.
You know, the structure of

623
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,640
mountains, landscapes, they're
all very fractal.

624
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,560
And that complexity that we see
has come through centuries of

625
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,880
evolution, waves and wind and
all of that occurring.

626
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,600
So that's again an emergent
phenomenon that no one actually

627
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,920
sat down like an artist and said
I'm going to paint the mountains

628
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,080
this way.
It just happens.

629
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:14,480
So the the, the, the best that I
know of in terms of

630
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:19,200
consciousness or life is that
these are labels that we attach

631
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:24,520
to a certain type of complexity
that might have emerged from

632
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,760
these repetitive phenomenon.
For example, if you have the

633
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:33,920
right kinds of chemicals or
right kinds of ingredients for

634
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,560
cellular structure and you keep
churning them over and over

635
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,920
again together, there are a lot
of, there are millions of

636
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:48,040
reactions that are taking place.
And if this goes on a large

637
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,480
enough number of times, maybe
you would start seeing molecules

638
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:58,160
that are tending towards what we
call as life, but which are

639
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,560
really more and more complex
molecules.

640
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,760
And so that can then, you know,
progress in a way that you would

641
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,480
eventually come up with this
greater complexity that we would

642
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,840
label as life or consciousness.
Yeah.

643
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,440
And do you think that that sort
of labeling takes place at a

644
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,120
single point or if it's kind of
just blurred out through our

645
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,360
tongue?
Oh, that's a that's a great

646
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,280
question.
And there are again being a

647
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,120
mathematician, I can give you a
mathematical model for that.

648
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,800
So now there's a name for the
that phenomenon.

649
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,360
I can't remember the name, but
the the mathematical idea for

650
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:38,040
this is, you know, you start
counting 1234 and if you keep

651
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,600
doing it you will eventually get
to Infinity.

652
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:45,240
But at what, at what what stage
does that break off occur?

653
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,800
Can you actually say, hey, up to
here is finite and then things

654
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,480
become infinite?
So it's that kind of conundrum

655
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,360
that there's actually a name for
it, and that's the same kind of

656
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,560
idea that you're asking me.
I'll try and check out what that

657
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,240
is after this, but yeah, I think
it's intriguing because it's.

658
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,520
I mean, when people think about
the universe, there's often

659
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,560
those handful of questions that
always come up.

660
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,240
I mean, why is this universe
here?

661
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,600
Why are we conscious certain
other things like free world?

662
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,840
Are these topics other than the
universe itself?

663
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,800
Are consciousness and free world
something you you give a lot of

664
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,960
thought from from your
mathematical perspective?

665
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,520
Not not so much actually.
I haven't given thought to him,

666
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,640
but but actually it's
interestingly enough.

667
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:36,480
What I've been writing now is a
memoir, which involves my mother

668
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,760
and she she was extremely
intelligent and so on, but then

669
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:44,240
she ended up getting dementia.
And so it tracks that and some

670
00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:46,680
of the things that I've been
I've been looking over the notes

671
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,040
that I wrote for that and some
of these questions come up over

672
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,760
there, like, you know, where
does how.

673
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,040
One thing that was fascinating
to me was how malleable

674
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,560
consciousness is.
Now, this can be both in a good

675
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,800
way and in a bad way.
The good way first is that in

676
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:10,600
terms of learning mathematics,
people have shown that your

677
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:15,480
brain is extremely adept if you
use it in the right way.

678
00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:19,040
So they've done, they've,
they've documented, for example,

679
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,440
cab drivers in London that have
to pass this.

680
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,520
You, you've probably heard of
this, that have to pass this

681
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:29,040
very difficult test and have to
keep all these roots and so on

682
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,040
in their minds.
And they're able to do it and

683
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:33,800
it's a very mathematical kind of
thing.

684
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,040
And these people aren't trained,
but they're able to negotiate

685
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,200
the mathematics that's inherent
in this.

686
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,400
But then when they stop it and
they no longer have it, then

687
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,840
they lose that ability.
So, so you know, your mind is

688
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:50,440
very adept at, if you train at
the right way being able to do

689
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,680
this.
What I noticed with my mother

690
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:58,520
was that one of the signs with
with, you know, dementia is that

691
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,360
you become very paranoid.
But, but there's always a logic

692
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,960
to her paranoia.
You know, she would, she would

693
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:09,760
interpret things in a kind of
different way and say, hey this,

694
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,520
this plus this gives me this.
It's almost like it's again,

695
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,160
that isomatic structure.
If you feel, for example, that

696
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,320
the CIA is, you know, looking at
you and tracking your

697
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,720
removement, you start with that
assumption.

698
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,360
Then you can actually fit in a
lot of things within that

699
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,400
framework.
And that's perfectly

700
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,080
mathematically correct.
You know, we we mathematicians

701
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,080
would applaud that how you're
doing that.

702
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,360
And this unfortunately is why
fake news is so hard to

703
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:42,240
eradicate, because again, you
twist the axioms a little bit

704
00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:45,720
and then you can just fit
everything quite nicely and

705
00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:50,920
interpret everything in terms of
the kind of conclusion that you

706
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,360
are most comfortable with.
So, So you know there there is.

707
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:01,240
The idea of consciousness, I'm
sure if you really analyze how

708
00:43:01,240 --> 00:43:05,480
it works, there is some
axiomatic structure to that.

709
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:10,680
And I would think that I I don't
know if there's a a big thrust

710
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,240
of mathematicians looking at
this, but it would be very

711
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:14,720
interesting to see what they
said.

712
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:16,720
No, no, no.
I think that's exactly what's

713
00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:19,240
happening.
Because nowadays it seems that

714
00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:23,040
the most prominent sort of
viewpoint on consciousness is

715
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:27,240
that of Bayes, Bayesian brains
and and sort of viewing this

716
00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:29,920
brain as almost a statistical
organ that's taking in prior

717
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,240
information and and
regurgitating these posterior

718
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:36,120
conclusions about the the world
of reality.

719
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,040
Do you think that's sort of an
appropriate starting point?

720
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,960
Yes, I think, I think certainly
probabilistic stuff is you know

721
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:52,240
is how things work but but what
I was yeah I mean exactly so

722
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:54,960
there are, there are these
different ways that you can.

723
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,680
You can proceed.
And so there's going to be a

724
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:02,320
certain amount of people that
will choose path A rather than

725
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:03,920
path B.
And these are both

726
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,720
interpretations of something
that happens.

727
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,040
So I don't know if that's, you
know, that's that's that's how

728
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,880
I'm thinking about where the
probabilities come in.

729
00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:16,120
Yeah, it's it's pretty, it's
pretty much along those lines

730
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,440
and we just give a certain
amount of credence to each

731
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,160
decision based on our prior
experiences overall.

732
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,600
And it seems to be doing a lot
of work, great work even within

733
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,920
psychiatry, which helps then
solidify its validity overall

734
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:34,400
because you can kind of tell how
certain mental illnesses are

735
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,360
fundamental areas within priors
rather than the posteriors or

736
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,040
and vice versa.
And it does have some experiment

737
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,480
now in that regard.
Yeah, but but the thing that

738
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:50,000
that is hard is that that that
also noted was once these ideas

739
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,680
get rooted in, it's so hard to
root them out.

740
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,440
It was just it just is extremely
difficult.

741
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,760
So I don't know if that's the
function of your brain, you

742
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,760
know, creating pathways that
it'll it just get embedded in

743
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,840
that and just have to keep going
going that way because.

744
00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:13,680
I think the cure, if you want to
call it that, is basically

745
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,720
choosing a different path and
that seems that seems very

746
00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:18,320
difficult.
It is.

747
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:22,200
It is quite a tough one overall.
And that's and that's and I'll

748
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,080
just say one one thing related
to that that's that's one of the

749
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,520
reasons why mathematics is such
a difficult subject because to

750
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:34,160
learn for so many because they
kind of a lot of people will go

751
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:39,360
into this failure mentality that
they will say hey each time I.

752
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,400
You know, get a get something
wrong in a test, it's because I

753
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:48,120
can't do mathematics and that
kind of self affirming cycle

754
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,200
just makes these grooves deeper
and deeper and it's very hard to

755
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,720
get out of them.
If you have a different

756
00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:57,320
mentality that hey I didn't do
well in this test because I

757
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,680
didn't work hard enough on it,
then that's that's the kind of

758
00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:04,840
way that you can actually get
better at it.

759
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,520
So I think that that my only
problem with this with the

760
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,560
Bayesian brain hypothesis for
the for consciousness in itself

761
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,800
is is that we often tend as
humans to take the current

762
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,800
mathematics and apply it to to
consciousness particularly for

763
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,800
example many years ago it was
pumps and and vessels and we

764
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,160
kind of take that framework and
utilize it.

765
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,600
So I think that it when we do, I
mean, perhaps yours is correct

766
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,960
and maybe this this approach can
be fine-tuned into consciousness

767
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,440
research somehow.
Do you think that's a a

768
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:39,000
possibility?
I'm not sure I understand your

769
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,760
question.
OK, so this mathematical

770
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:45,200
framework that you've got, do
you think people can utilize it

771
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,920
and and and go forward with some
consciousness research?

772
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:49,880
Is there a practical information
that's there?

773
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:53,480
Well, I would, I would guess
that you know there's there's

774
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:57,280
axiomatic structures to so many
things that you know like

775
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:01,120
economics, there's there's a
many axiomatic theories of

776
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,800
economics.
You, you, you, you assume that

777
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:10,920
all, all people are all, all
participants are working for

778
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:12,520
their own gain and blah blah
blah.

779
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,440
And then you build up what's
going to happen.

780
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:17,760
And this kind of structure has
been used in other fields as

781
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,960
well, so.
I would guess that you would

782
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,400
probably have something like
that for consciousness as well.

783
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,200
I haven't thought about it
enough, but that's my gut

784
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,200
feeling overall.
So within within your book, I

785
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,440
mean at some point you also go
into sort of the the practical

786
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:37,280
implications of of such a view.
I mean there's there's this move

787
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:41,440
away from a theology but into
this sort of mathematical

788
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,080
framework.
So they are sort of practical

789
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,200
implications to it.
Do you want to tell us about,

790
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,800
like some of the liberating
aspects of seeing the world

791
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:49,280
within this mathematical
framework?

792
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:57,720
So I think the best thing for me
at least, is that it it it it

793
00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:02,320
makes it, it makes it so that
the world is, is is logical.

794
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,520
You know, you want you want
things to be logical.

795
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:09,000
So for me that's very comforting
that OK, everything is happening

796
00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:12,920
for a logical reason.
I think that's one of the things

797
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,400
that draws a lot of people to
religion, for instance, You

798
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,240
know, they want an explanation
of why did this happen.

799
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,800
And for me, randomness is a very
good explanation.

800
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,800
It depends on whether that's
personally satisfying or not.

801
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,440
For me, that is more satisfying
than saying that hey, somebody

802
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,400
you know didn't like what you
did in your past life and

803
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:33,640
therefore they're punishing you
now.

804
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,000
But so.
So I think that's that's one

805
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:41,440
thing.
The other thing is that if if

806
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,880
things are really based on
mathematics, then this idea of

807
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,680
the unreasonable effectiveness.
That becomes clear cut.

808
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,960
Everything is based on
mathematics, so obviously

809
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:57,720
mathematics would then do things
very well, explain things very

810
00:48:57,720 --> 00:49:00,040
well.
So that's another kind of

811
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:04,120
advantage of how this framework,
thinking in terms of

812
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,760
mathematics, being at the center
of the universe, how it helps

813
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:14,160
and you can, you can also.
Talk about, you know, some of

814
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,640
the some of the questions that
you already brought out were

815
00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:20,680
what about why?
Why?

816
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:26,080
Why are things so so imperfect?
You know, and and, and for that,

817
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,400
we've already talked a little
bit about the fact that we don't

818
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,240
have infinite resources we don't
have.

819
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,920
You know, nature cannot.
The mathematics is always rooted

820
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,280
in the infinite, and then you
somehow have to dump it down.

821
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:46,040
And make things that are finite.
So thinking about that also kind

822
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,520
of explains some more that it's
it's not going to be exactly

823
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,200
right.
And the last thing is that, OK,

824
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:56,000
you have a contractor and I
don't know if you've ever had

825
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,480
any work done in where you live,
but anytime you're working with

826
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:04,800
a contractor you can expect.
There to be some grief involved,

827
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:07,640
you know, things will not go
right all the time.

828
00:50:07,720 --> 00:50:11,760
The contractor will want to put
in their own little twerk,

829
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,680
little little tweaks or whatever
or mistakes.

830
00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:19,160
And so that's that's again
certainly something that we see

831
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:24,160
a lot of, we see little changes
in DNA or or you know, things

832
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:26,360
that aren't quite fitting into
the pattern.

833
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:30,400
So that again explains why this
thing can happen.

834
00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:32,520
It's sort of the glitches in the
matrix, kinda.

835
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,000
Yeah, exactly.
I I I always think of, you know

836
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:40,680
there's something about carpet
weavers purposely putting in a

837
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:44,880
little glitch or a little error
so that there it's almost like a

838
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:46,960
signature that they are putting
on it.

839
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,640
So that's what nature is doing.
She's playing with us a little

840
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:51,880
bit.
And and then tell me, D have you

841
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,840
then given some thoughts to the
telios of this mathematical

842
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:56,360
universe?
Yeah.

843
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:58,560
What is this?
Or what is the overarching goal?

844
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:07,880
Or is there one?
Overarching goal I Is there goal

845
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:09,480
directed this to this
mathematics.

846
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,240
It doesn't have to be sort of a
religious one, but more of a

847
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:17,280
Where is this myth headed?
Yeah, that's that's, you know,

848
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:21,040
that's like we don't even know
about what this is first.

849
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,240
So I I don't think I know enough
about the animals, so to speak,

850
00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:28,880
to know what it's what it's
aiming for.

851
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:34,480
So you know that that that kind
of dichotomy or that duality,

852
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,960
whether mathematics is something
that we think of in our brains

853
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,400
or whether it's something that
just exists by itself, that

854
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,400
these numbers start with nothing
and create themselves and the

855
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,160
rest of mathematics as follows.
That's that's still an open

856
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,840
question obviously.
But if you look at it in the 2nd

857
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:56,680
way that this is all happening
because there was nothing.

858
00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:59,880
You don't expect there to be a
goal somehow.

859
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:02,840
That's my gut feeling.
You know that that if if you're

860
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:09,320
if you're really using
randomness to justify the

861
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:13,320
existence of mathematics, that
things are just developing by

862
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:18,240
themselves, then it's once again
like that emergent phenomenon

863
00:52:18,240 --> 00:52:22,520
where there is no artist who's
really creating this this

864
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:25,440
tableau.
It's just happening because of

865
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:30,720
the way things are unfolding.
And I would, I would feel, I

866
00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:33,680
feel uncomfortable saying that
there would be a goal because

867
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,840
that always begins calls into
question whether there is

868
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,280
someone who is actually
orchestrating this.

869
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,960
So I'd rather stay away from
that that that actually would be

870
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,440
a great idea for a second book,
a follow up to this one.

871
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:50,360
I mean sort of like a big crunch
of of numbers or a big the

872
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,200
ending to this whole story.
Yeah, right.

873
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,600
Well, I just need another 10
years and then you know, you can

874
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,360
interview me then.
So So what?

875
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,280
What really absorbs you at this
point in your life?

876
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,160
Like what?
What work really gets you

877
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,240
excited within the mathematical
sphere, or even science in

878
00:53:08,240 --> 00:53:13,320
general?
So right now I'm trying to write

879
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:18,280
a piece that's, you know, in my
research field of finite

880
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:23,400
elements.
Which is a way, a method that is

881
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:30,720
was developed by engineers and
they basically if you have a

882
00:53:30,720 --> 00:53:35,120
structure like a bridge or or
even an airplane or or something

883
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:40,480
like that, you want to know what
kind of stresses can this the

884
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,520
structure can I can withstand
and you want to make sure that

885
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:48,040
you know tiny cracks don't bring
the whole thing down and so.

886
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:54,640
So Mechanical Engineers have
been figuring out ways to first

887
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:58,360
of all model this using
equations from physics, and

888
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,920
secondly solve these equations.
And you can't really solve them

889
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,400
exactly, you can only do them
approximately.

890
00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:08,800
So they came up with lots of
methods to do such things and

891
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:12,440
one of them was, OK, we'll just
replace the structure by various

892
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,520
springs that are attached to
each other.

893
00:54:14,720 --> 00:54:18,120
And then we'll all kind of, you
know, figure out what happens

894
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,880
with these springs and and then
that would give us a good idea

895
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:23,400
of what would happen with the
structure.

896
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,560
And they were able to do this
all very mathematically.

897
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:30,760
And this was in the 70s or so,
even before that, then in the

898
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:35,440
70s.
Mathematicians started taking a

899
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,760
look at this, and they started
putting it in very mathematical

900
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:45,000
forms and they said OK, you need
you need this, you know you need

901
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,000
these abstract spaces.
And then you can talk about a

902
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:52,920
solution and its approximation,
and you can see how how well the

903
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:57,160
approximation converges to the
solution if you use enough

904
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,320
computer power.
So that's what the

905
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,480
mathematicians did.
It made it very orderly and and

906
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,480
and as they were doing that,
they also found that the

907
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:09,640
engineers had been using all
sorts of tricks and so on to

908
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,880
make things conform to the
experiments that they were

909
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:14,240
seeing.
So you know, you have this

910
00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:19,720
model, you find the solution and
then you compare it with what

911
00:55:19,720 --> 00:55:22,640
actually happens in practice.
And you know, if it doesn't

912
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,120
compare very well, you use these
little tricks and so on, and

913
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,440
then you get.
The, the approximation to be

914
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:32,840
much closer now the problem is
that around the mid 70s there

915
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,000
were a lot of programs,
commercial programs that were

916
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:40,160
developed and these commercial
programs used all these tricks

917
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:44,520
and everything and they they
they've turned out to be very

918
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:48,000
useful and they were used in you
know almost anything that you

919
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,920
can think of and they still are
used right now.

920
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,360
So these are called the legacy
programs in this field, in the

921
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:59,080
finite element field.
The problem is that the

922
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:03,160
mathematicians, when they
started finding problems, this

923
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,520
was, this was a little later,
you know so, so, so it wasn't

924
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:10,680
easy to then go back and fix
these programs and there were

925
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:13,480
many advances that
mathematicians came up with and

926
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:17,360
that's kind of what I was you
know, involved with in as well.

927
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:22,120
And over the years, these
advances have been used by

928
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:26,080
researchers and so on, but they
haven't really percolated down

929
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:31,600
to to this ground level legacy
programs, which are in great use

930
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,080
everywhere.
So, so far things have been

931
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:36,680
going along pretty well, You
know, because the engineers can

932
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:40,160
still do their fixes and so on
and things work reasonably well,

933
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:43,840
Not great, but reasonably well.
But now they're talking about

934
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:49,320
having AI take over.
And you know, figure out, add

935
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,320
that as a component to these
programs so that these programs

936
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:56,680
will automatically look at a
structure and talk about which

937
00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:00,440
are the best ways to discretize
it, where we should put more

938
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:04,800
computer power, where chances of
more action being seen are

939
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,560
greater.
The problem is that no one

940
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:12,600
really knows how that's going to
interact with the kind of fixes

941
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:15,080
that.
Engineers have been doing, you

942
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,640
know the fixes are are not
democratic and you you really

943
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:21,400
need someone to know what to do
and how to do it.

944
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:24,400
So.
So that's that's something that,

945
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:28,080
you know, a mechanical engineer
professor, a colleague of mine

946
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:30,680
just brought up.
And so that's that's a problem

947
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,800
that's very interesting,
especially since, you know, it's

948
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:38,400
like looking at this same work
that I did many or many years,

949
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:43,240
but now how does that actually?
Where is it going to be used?

950
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,760
How is it going to be used?
Is it going to be used?

951
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:52,040
You know, so it just also
illustrates how difficult it is

952
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:58,120
for mathematical research to
really trickle down and make the

953
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:03,240
kind of, you know, kind of the
fact that we would like the kind

954
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:07,160
of impact we would like because.
Certainly at a research level

955
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:11,360
things are fine, but when you go
down to real commercial hardcore

956
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:15,400
stuff, then there's still a big
gap between engineering and

957
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:17,200
math.
So that's that's something that

958
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,720
I hope to be able to at least
cast a little light on.

959
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,720
So, so it sort of bridged that
gap a little bit because I mean

960
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:27,000
it's it's we even touched it
earlier when we spoke about how

961
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:31,840
even though it's it's so
mathematically structured, it's

962
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:34,440
still so mathematically
incorrect, inaccurate when we

963
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:35,920
look at reality.
And that's sort of what

964
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:37,720
engineering does with
mathematics.

965
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:41,520
It takes those activities and
sort of applies it so well where

966
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:43,360
it's actually surprising to the
mathematician.

967
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:46,840
Yeah, and and the
mathematicians, you know, we can

968
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,400
we can make our theories and
that they don't work fine, no

969
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:51,440
problem.
If the engineers do something

970
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:55,400
like that, the bridge collapses.
So that's not that's not

971
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:59,440
acceptable.
So it it is a complete different

972
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:02,480
way of looking at things.
And a colleague of mine used to

973
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:07,720
say that engineers think in
terms of examples, so they'll

974
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:10,000
keep giving examples.
Hey, it works here, it works

975
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:13,000
here, it works here.
Mathematicians think in terms of

976
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:15,240
counter examples.
So we.

977
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,200
Immediately start thinking, hey,
where will it not work?

978
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:20,680
So we are the eternal
pessimists, I guess.

979
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:23,080
I don't know.
Yeah, I mean, that's actually a

980
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:24,920
very nice way to think about it.
I found that.

981
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:27,040
That's that's something I'm
gonna actually document.

982
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,760
Yeah.
Any anything, any advice you

983
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:33,160
give to sort of future
mathematicians when I enter the

984
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:36,520
field for exciting areas within
mathematics today?

985
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:41,720
Well, you know, everything is
being turned over completely

986
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:45,640
topsy turvy with artificial
intelligence and machine

987
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:49,080
learning.
Like even even to give you an

988
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:53,040
example, the the kind of work
that I've been doing, you know,

989
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:57,360
very like looking at structures,
looking at what kind of

990
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:02,160
refinements will give us what
kind of results, how to improve

991
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:06,840
convergence and so on.
There's a group that is now just

992
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:08,600
saying, hey, we don't need any
of this.

993
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,000
What we're going to do is we're
just going to pop in some

994
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:16,280
examples, a whole bunch of
examples, into our machines and

995
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:19,720
let the machines learn and
basically figure out.

996
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,640
And you know it's a.
It's a pretty standard algorithm

997
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:32,160
where if you put in many
equations and figure out a bunch

998
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:35,520
of solutions for them, then the
machine is going to be able to

999
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:41,920
learn and it'll be able to
digest any other parts that you

1000
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:44,080
give it and just pop out the
answer.

1001
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:47,120
So that's that's one train of
thought.

1002
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:52,200
Now, fortunately, there's still
a lot of problems in that and I

1003
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:56,920
don't know if it could all it
could be perfected to the extent

1004
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,240
that it would be completely
accurate.

1005
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:03,520
But if you start saying that you
know everything can be done that

1006
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:09,760
way, then it's hard to predict
where the excitement will lie.

1007
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:16,000
In the past, you know, math has
been traditionally pure math and

1008
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:20,280
applied math, and the applied
math is the kinds of stuff that

1009
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:23,440
I've been talking about that
I've been doing in terms of pure

1010
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,320
math.
There are also issues like pure

1011
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:30,000
math is questions and number
theory or or questions like the

1012
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:33,040
packing of you know, spheres and
so on.

1013
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,160
All these very abstract
questions that might not have an

1014
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:42,720
immediate application.
And there also there are now

1015
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:48,960
automatic proof theorem provers,
automatic theorem provers.

1016
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:54,160
There are things that will there
are big databases being built

1017
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:59,840
where a lot of mathematical
results are being codified and

1018
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:07,840
these these programs are able to
then identify structural

1019
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:12,040
similarities between very
different areas of mathematics

1020
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,600
and they're able to connect
these two and then come up with,

1021
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:19,040
you know, new theorems or at
least help people see new

1022
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,920
theorems.
So so that's going to be an

1023
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:25,600
issue like OK, it's not going to
be strictly your mental power

1024
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:30,280
anymore but some of these new
tools that we have.

1025
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:34,920
So, so the very questions that
people will be thinking of might

1026
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:39,360
be really different.
So I feel, I feel like I, you

1027
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:43,400
know I'm I I need to take a step
back and rather than try to

1028
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:47,280
advise anyone.
So I think that I think I think

1029
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:50,480
the basics though are going to
remain the same.

1030
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:54,840
You still need to know a lot of
things in mathematics to be able

1031
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:59,200
to get to that level where any
of this is going to be it, you

1032
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:00,680
know, going to make a big
difference.

1033
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,680
It's for someone who's not who's
not a mathematician.

1034
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:10,200
I'm I'm always curious to know
how rapid is the machine

1035
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:14,360
learning or AI mathematics, the
mathematical field, how how fast

1036
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:15,800
is it really growing at this
point?

1037
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,800
Because it seems to us like as
if this thing is just

1038
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:20,960
dynamically evolving on at a
rapid pace.

1039
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:24,160
Is this really the case?
Are we getting that close to,

1040
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,320
like such complexity that the
average human will not be able

1041
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:32,960
to understand?
Well, OK, so certainly in

1042
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:37,400
mathematics there have been
theorems proved that by by

1043
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:42,600
machines, and the methods that
they've used have been kind of

1044
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:45,000
opaque to humans.
A few theorems have been proved.

1045
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:49,640
So it's like, OK, this is not
what you know, it's very hard to

1046
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:54,800
kind of map it in your mind.
However, what's also true is

1047
01:03:54,800 --> 01:04:00,040
that there's there's certainly
not that golden bullet as as at

1048
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:05,480
present, because most of this is
theorem assistance proving

1049
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:07,520
assistance.
They're not, they're not able to

1050
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:10,320
just function automatically.
You set them loose and they'll

1051
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,520
they'll prove you know all sorts
of wonderful things.

1052
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:19,240
There's a program called Lean
LEAN and this is an automatic

1053
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:23,160
theorem assistant.
And what this does is this is

1054
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:27,040
one of the places where people
are spending a lot of time

1055
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:31,280
putting in theorems and, you
know, building up this database.

1056
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:34,960
And the idea is that it'll be
able to draw on this database

1057
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:40,040
and then prove things itself.
Right now though, if you want to

1058
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:47,200
prove something using lean, it
takes a lot longer than than

1059
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:49,600
just proving it yourself.
So it takes about, I don't know,

1060
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:53,680
somebody was telling me maybe 5
or 6 or 10 times as long, just

1061
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:58,640
in terms of programming all the
steps and instructing the kind

1062
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:04,040
of giving the computer a way of
a way forward to how to actually

1063
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,200
prove this.
So you have to keep assisting it

1064
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:08,960
right now.
But so we haven't reached the

1065
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:12,280
stage where you know the
computer is going to be able to

1066
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:15,560
plug itself in, and there's
worst case scenarios.

1067
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:18,960
All mathematicians are suddenly
redundant.

1068
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:20,480
You know, we haven't reached
that stage yet.

1069
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:23,520
Well let let's hope that never
it never comes to that because I

1070
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:27,440
mean it's it's it's always great
for people like us to look up to

1071
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:30,240
people like you and and read
your work, digest it and absorb

1072
01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:33,640
it all.
Yeah the, the, the, the question

1073
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:37,160
though that people have asked is
if you do get to this to that

1074
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:42,000
stage and you have these
machines proving theorems,

1075
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:45,960
wonderful theorems.
Would that would that really be

1076
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:47,960
something that we'd be even
interested in?

1077
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:51,360
You know if we can't, if we
can't, if we are not the ones

1078
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:54,080
that are making these
conjectures and if we are not

1079
01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:57,360
able to fully even understand
their proofs or appreciate them

1080
01:05:57,560 --> 01:05:59,680
call them elegant or anything
like that.

1081
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:03,760
Why would this be of interest?
You know, especially pure

1082
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:05,880
mathematics.
Why would that be of interest?

1083
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:07,360
So.
So who knows how things will

1084
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:08,360
progress?
Absolutely.

1085
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:09,680
That's actually a very
fascinating thought.

1086
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:11,920
It reminds me of this.
I don't know if you watched this

1087
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,480
movie called her Joaquin
Phoenix.

1088
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:19,880
Yeah, I watched part of it, yes.
AI becomes so complex at some

1089
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:23,920
point that they we they have no
frame of reference as to how to

1090
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:26,760
think about this thing or what
to do about it.

1091
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:28,760
I mean, it would go beyond us
completely.

1092
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:34,040
I know.
So yeah, well, I'll have to

1093
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:37,280
write a sequel then that, you
know, the AI, Big Bang of

1094
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:39,720
numbers or something like that,
The Big Bang of AI.

1095
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:42,960
But that we all know that's
that's that's engulfing us right

1096
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:44,960
now I think.
It is it's it's it's very

1097
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:48,080
absorbing at this point any any
final words Benil anything that

1098
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:50,920
you you feel like when you left
unsaid regarding the book or the

1099
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:52,960
this journey into this
mathematical universe.

1100
01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:58,360
Well, I think, I think the main
thing is there are two things.

1101
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:02,360
One is that, you know what I
just talked about, Would anyone

1102
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:06,360
really appreciate mathematics
that has nothing to do with us?

1103
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:11,400
I think that's one of the joys
of mathematics, is that it's a

1104
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:16,720
puzzle and you know, I I think
all of us react well to puzzles.

1105
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:19,440
So it's something that should
give you joy.

1106
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:22,120
And that's what I've tried to do
with this book.

1107
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:27,760
Bring out those parts of math
that I like the most and present

1108
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:30,480
them in a way that it's actually
a story so you can kind of

1109
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:33,880
follow it in that way.
The the one thing that people

1110
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:37,680
ask me is, OK, what should I do
if I'm not a mathematician?

1111
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:39,280
Should I be reading books like
that?

1112
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:44,000
And the data that I've been
gathering from friends who, you

1113
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:47,280
know, obviously feel forced to
buy my book when they come to my

1114
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:51,040
reading and then some of them
actually venture into reading

1115
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:54,040
it, is that yes, it can be done.
So that's a big relief.

1116
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:58,160
People who don't have training
in mathematics but do have

1117
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:02,760
interest in it, which is a big
if they're able to, you know,

1118
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:07,120
just take it a little bit out of
time and read it.

1119
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:10,640
There's there's very little
formulas in it as such.

1120
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:16,000
But The thing is that there are
ideas and the ideas always take

1121
01:08:16,279 --> 01:08:18,279
a long time to settle in.
So.

1122
01:08:18,279 --> 01:08:20,200
So you know, the main thing is
not rush it.

1123
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:25,120
And I can, I can say it's it's
sort of like, you know, I I came

1124
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:27,279
to literature a little later in
life.

1125
01:08:27,279 --> 01:08:33,040
So when I am confronted with
something like Tolstoy, I read

1126
01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:37,040
Anna Karenina like last year and
it took me a long time, but I

1127
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:39,359
enjoyed it.
But it was like you have to know

1128
01:08:39,359 --> 01:08:42,279
your limits and I'm sure other
people would be able to absorb

1129
01:08:42,279 --> 01:08:45,760
it much faster.
So I think that's where you

1130
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:50,760
know, looking at this as a way
of expanding your horizons and

1131
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:53,479
also having fun.
So that's why I wrote this book.

1132
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:58,000
Well, I think I can defend that
because as a medical doctor, I

1133
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:02,240
mean, we're not that ingrained
in the mathematics and we do do

1134
01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:05,359
basic mathematics, but it's not.
It's not that intense and and

1135
01:09:05,359 --> 01:09:08,479
for someone without that serious
background in mathematics it was

1136
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:11,399
an enjoyable read and it's and
it's and it's relatively

1137
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:13,920
absorbable within a single
reading.

1138
01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:15,920
I mean I I can imagine reading
it more.

1139
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:17,439
I'd probably gain a lot more
from it.

1140
01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:20,760
But as a as a first time reader
it was very well done.

1141
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:23,880
And yeah, thank you for.
Your excellent work, That's

1142
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:24,960
great to know.
Thank you Tell.

1143
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:27,279
Me.
Oh, why did you name the book

1144
01:09:27,399 --> 01:09:30,520
Big Bang of Numbers?
Oh, so that's a good question.

1145
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:31,920
It's called a Big Bang on
Numbers.

1146
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:34,840
And then there's a subtitle, How
to Build a Universe Using only

1147
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:37,640
Math.
And The Big Bang on Numbers

1148
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:41,279
actually comes from an incident
that occurred when I was an

1149
01:09:41,279 --> 01:09:45,640
undergraduate where we had this
professor in India, in Bombay.

1150
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:51,479
Now it's Mumbai who told us
about this, this saying by

1151
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:55,240
chronicler.
We said that God made the

1152
01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:59,040
numbers.
The rest all is the work of man.

1153
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:03,040
So God gives us these numbers,
1234 and everything else is it?

1154
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:05,520
Not the integers.
I think it's the integers.

1155
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:06,400
The integers.
Sorry.

1156
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:08,360
Yeah.
Let me let me say that again.

1157
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:11,800
Yeah, yeah.
I, I, I knew when I said

1158
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:13,080
numbers.
That's not quite correct.

1159
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:15,760
OK.
So, so, yeah, so, so The Big

1160
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:19,720
Bang of numbers, the, the title
comes from this incident that

1161
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:23,480
occurred when I was an
undergraduate in Bombay, which

1162
01:10:23,480 --> 01:10:27,000
is now Mumbai in India.
And our algebra professor

1163
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:33,520
actually told us this saying by
Kronecker which is God made the

1164
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:36,760
integers.
Rest all is the work of man.

1165
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:41,680
And the idea was that you know
1234 etcetera, they're God-given

1166
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:44,280
and then we build everything
from that.

1167
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:47,480
And then this professor showed
us, he said that, you know, I

1168
01:10:47,480 --> 01:10:50,240
can do better.
I don't even need God because I

1169
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:53,560
can actually make all the
integers myself, just starting

1170
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:56,160
with nothing.
And he showed us this kind of

1171
01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:59,720
almost a magic trick on how to
do that using SAT theory.

1172
01:10:59,960 --> 01:11:02,520
And so that's always stayed with
me because it was like, you

1173
01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:04,720
know, almost like a religious
experience.

1174
01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:07,520
You could call it, you know,
like suddenly I could see

1175
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:10,040
numbers everywhere.
And it was like creation.

1176
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:13,160
And that's the idea that I took
into this book.

1177
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:18,880
Could I keep going when when it
says that the rest all is the

1178
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:22,800
work of man, of human beings,
Can we actually create

1179
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:25,360
everything using mathematics?
You start with the numbers and

1180
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:27,040
then you know where does that
lead to?

1181
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:29,280
Can you create the whole
universe using that?

1182
01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:33,240
So, so that's that's where the
title of the book comes comes

1183
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:34,200
from.
I think, yeah.

1184
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:38,320
Well, it's a beautiful book,
great title, and hopefully in 10

1185
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:40,280
years we'll be having this
conversation about The Big Bang

1186
01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:44,040
of AI or wherever else the
universe takes you.

1187
01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:46,680
This mathematical universe
sounds good.

1188
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:48,560
Thanks so much Benil.
Have a great day.

1189
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:51,840
Thank you so much for your time.
OK, take care.

1190
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:52,240
Bye.