Lawrence Krauss: Does Science Need Philosophy? The Unbelievers, Known Unknowns & Edge Of Knowledge

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Lawrence, your latest book is
called The Known Unknowns, The

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Unsolved Mysteries of the
Cosmos.

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I mean, beautiful title.
And I think it's perfect because

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this podcast represents one of
those unsolved mysteries, the

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mind body problem or what is
consciousness.

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So I think let's talk with that
problem.

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I mean, do you think there is a
mind body problem, Lawrence?

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Or what is consciousness?
Well, I don't know if there's a

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problem.
I think people make up a problem

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suggesting the mind and the body
are somewhat different, which is

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clearly wrong since the mind is
made-up of parts of the body and

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it's nothing more and nothing
less.

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But it's the most complicated
thing you can imagine, which is

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why I don't study it as a field,
because it's too complicated.

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Physics is so much easier, as I
like to say.

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But what is consciousness?
Is is a really good question.

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It's a question I tried to
address in the chapter.

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As you know, the last chapter I
book is about consciousness, a

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subject that I studiously
avoided in a sense because it's

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it's complicated.
And I was suspicious about many

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of the books that claim that
they were.

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Understood consciousness or
explained consciousness or any

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of those things my friends and
mine who relate those books to

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me all the time.
And so I read.

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But I, you know, I have a bunch
of colleagues who are involved

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in this too.
So I talked to them, and what I

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learned was in fact it's it's
not only just as complicated as

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I thought, but more complicated.
And we don't understand

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consciousness, and it's not even
clear if consciousness is the

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right question to understand.
I recently had a discussion with

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Noam Chomsky who basically said
it might be a red herring in the

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sense of trying to understand
the mechanisms behind what we

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call self-awareness.
And he thinks there may in the

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end just be some kind of
mathematical representation.

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And we won't even ask the
questions that you know how does

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this arise.
But consciousness obviously we

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it's like it it it's like
pornography you know is that is

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that.
Judge, American, Judge said.

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I know it when I see it, can't
explain it, but I know it when I

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see it.
And you know, we all understand

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our self-awareness.
But what is quite clear is that

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it's just the tip of an iceberg
that what we're seeing this,

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this, this narrative that each
of us has with an idea of

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ourselves, some person inside of
our head.

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It's clearly at some level an
illusion, but that's right.

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But saying it's illusion is
really irrelevant.

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The whole world is an illusion.
And since this table is hard,

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but it's illusion in the sense
that most of it's empty space,

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but it's hard.
And you know, time is some

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people, as I say in my book,
some people the time is

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illusion.
Well that may be true but it

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doesn't help you when you miss
the train to get to work and and

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so the question is how does that
illusion rise.

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That's the real question about
science and.

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The Y or whatever or even
definitions are secondary.

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How does how does a a biological
system with complex sensory

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apparatus and homeostatic
regulation of its internal

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States and feedback not only
result in behavior which all

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systems do all about living
systems of behavior, but

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something that at least gives
the people that gives a sense of

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self-awareness and the illusion
of of.

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Of choice when I speak.
Anyway, so the bottom line is

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that it's, it is.
I think it's telling that many

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of the researchers on
consciousness don't bother to

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try and define it.
Yeah, that's so hard.

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I think they can't.
I'm not sure I can.

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When I spoke to Noam Chomsky, we
had a couple conversations about

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this and and I remember him
saying, I mean, we know what

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matters.
We do, sorry, we know what

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consciousness is, we just don't
know what matters.

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What are your thoughts when he
when he says something like

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that?
Because that opens up the door

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to many different types of
theories of consciousness and

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reality.
How would you define reality?

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Oh my God.
Reality is that which continues

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to exist even when you stop
believing in it.

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That's a line from from a famous
science fiction writer that I

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really like.
And it's important.

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I think it's really important.
It's it you know, I do think,

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you know, I I do think there's
an objective reality.

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We we experience it in different
ways, but it exists independent

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of our own existence and it's
independent of what we like or

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don't like.
Of course it it it's experienced

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in different ways and we can't
no one.

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And can experience reality at
all its levels.

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As far as we know, science
doesn't explore reality at all

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its levels yet either, which
it's contingent.

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It it it, we don't have we our
physical theories all apply to a

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certain domain of reality, but
not to all domains.

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Unless we have someday a theory
of everything which which I'm

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not convinced will have, then,
then all of our theories apply

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over a limited domain of.
Applicability.

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And they describe the world
perfectly over that domain, as

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far as we can tell, and allow us
to make predictions of with

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untold accuracy.
But they're not complete,

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they're not complete
descriptions of reality.

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They're they're they're partial
descriptions.

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And that's fine.
Science accepts that.

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In fact, in physics we even have
a well described, well defined

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mathematical procedure For, for,
for, for describing just how our

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picture of reality changes with.
With scale or time.

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When I spoke to Nomo, he also
mentioned the fact that I mean

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when people talk about the free
will debate.

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You mentioned choice.
When you answered the question

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of conscience, what are your
thoughts on free will?

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He says.
I mean, it's like you should

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have common sense.
Nobody walks around the place

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assuming they don't have free
will.

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So the fact of the matter is,
whether you're an illusionist

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about free will or not, you
still are technically someone

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who believes in free will.
Do you agree with that?

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I don't believe in anything.
I don't believe is a word that

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scientists should use.
Things are likely or not likely.

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We act as if we have free will
and it and we might as well act

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as if we have free will.
We're we're hardwired to act as

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if we have free will.
I think by evolution and and I

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you know there is no it's a
fundamental level there's

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there's no such thing as free
will but but but.

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And that may affect and you know
I just, I just did a very long

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recorded a very long podcast
with Robert Savalski about this,

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his new books coming out on that
subject and that that may have

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that may have implications for
will have implications for

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punishment and and stuff.
But I think we have to act as if

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we'll take responsibility for
our actions and we try and think

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rationally.
And our rational thinking of

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course is subject to a history
of our own history.

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But we can, we are, we are
partially rational beings and we

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can assess the situation and try
and act rationally.

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That itself is determined.
But we can do that and and and

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we might as well do that.
And so, you know, I don't, I

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think a whole, I mean, I think I
really like Pasabalski's book

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because it's about neural
processes a lot, I think.

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You know, and his efforts over
the years, I think primarily to

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get to to overcome this notion
of punishment.

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When I first read, I thought,
well, you know, I hate, I mean,

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it's a good book.
Most books are free will.

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I just say it's worth one
sentence.

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There's no such thing as free
will.

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But for all intents and purposes
we live in a world which is

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indistinguishable, appears
indistinguishable from free

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will.
So you might as well act as if

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you have it.
But societally we should

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recognize that it doesn't exist.
And therefore, when we, when we,

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when we.
Try and deal with how to how to

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make society function optimally.
Then we have to take that into

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account, especially in terms of
punishment and jailing and

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criminality and that sort of
thing.

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I think it's very fascinating,
particularly when you're talking

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about morality and how free will
can impact morality and moral

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perspectives.
Because another thing that seems

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to be very linked to morality is
people's beliefs and religious

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beliefs.
And over the years, I mean, I've

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been following your work for so
many years, and at this point I

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consider myself someone who's
read all your books, been part

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of this journey.
And I know there was a time

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where, well, maybe not all the
books, but I think on my

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bookshelf there's a whole
section, and I don't really put

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them according to author.
But I've got you, Dawkins,

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Dennett.
There's a whole bunch of atheist

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books all in one section.
Do you feel that over time, the

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New Age atheist movement that
once was quite, quite big has

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somehow changed or shifted in in
a way?

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Or what do you think's happened
to this?

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My books aren't atheist books.
My books are about science.

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Yeah.
And and you know and and and in

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a sense that's one of the same
thing.

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But it's it's, it's it's there
it's to get people excited about

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the real world and asking
questions about the real world.

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Part of that is not you know is
is is overcoming.

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False narratives and false
beliefs in in fairies and and

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and other things.
There's a movement I never like

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to be.
I don't consider myself part of

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a movement, but there is and it
and like all movements, it's now

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like the, I mean in many way
it's just like in Life of Brian,

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you know it's splinters and
there's the People's Front for

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the Liberate, Judean Liberation
Front, and there's the Judasian

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Judean People's Liberation Front
and.

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And they all hate each other and
they are.

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And so that that happens to some
extent and I I I really think

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you know that the problem is
that people treat it religiously

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as if as if you know, I mean
atheism is just you know, part

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it's just not believing things
without evidence.

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And so it's not it's not it's
it's not something separate that

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you try and promote or
promulgate except getting people

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to question things and and think
freely and rationally and.

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To the extent that people tried
to to to to make it more it's

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kind of many people are atheists
but have a great deal of sexual

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secular religiosity.
I, I, I, I, I was in a debate

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and at the Oxford Union Online
the question was is everyone

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religious?
Or the proposition was everyone

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is religious and I came, I I
chose to be on the side saying

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yes, everyone's religious.
And what I meant by that is if

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it if if people weren't
religious, we wouldn't need

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science.
The science trains us to

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overcome that natural Peter's
position, to want to believe, to

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think we're significant, all of
those things.

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And what you see is if in, in
often in, in, in this secular

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movement is replaced by
ideologies like, you know,

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social justice or woke
fundamentalist wokeism.

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And and so you see that people
want to believe and want to have

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ideas that can't be questioned,
for which it's heretical to even

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have debate about all of the
things that we should.

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We've been fighting for,
fighting for, that we've been

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promoting with the Age of
Enlightenment.

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You know that I go out the
window with these supposedly

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progressive groups.
I I think I agree with you.

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Sorry.
Continue.

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The right is.
I mean, it's not so suggested.

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The whole problem is the left,
because the right is just as

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desirous of.
Suppressing free speech, as the

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left appears to be sometimes
more I agree with because I

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remember when I was following it
and I was reading your books, it

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came from a purely scientific
background.

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It was me just reading these
books, enjoying the science, and

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it just so happens that I am
also an atheist who's enjoying

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the fact that you are as well.
It wasn't.

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Yeah, well, I mean the universe
for nothing was, you know,

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Richard Dawkins wrote the
foreword for it and and or the

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afterword.
Christopher Hitchens was writing

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the foreword when when he died.
But.

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You know that's in some sense an
atheist book because it you know

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it tries.
Darwin showed us that you know

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you don't need God for the to
understand the diversity of life

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on earth and and and and then
sort of at the next refuge of

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scoundrels, religious scandals
as well Okay.

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But you can't get a universe or
nothing and so and Richard said

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that it very kindly in the
afterword more or less that it

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was a successor in that sense.
I don't think of it as a.

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Same level in any way, in any
way as Darwin's work.

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But it does try and address that
slippery notion of okay.

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Well, we now understand life.
You don't need some supernatural

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shenanigans, but surely you need
supernatural shenanigans for a

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universe.
And the point is, you don't.

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Now that does that mean there
weren't?

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Well, no.
But you don't need them.

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So you know, and tell me what
inspired the unbelievers,

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because I mean, that's such a
cool concept for you guys to go

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on.
It's almost like rock stars.

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Just intellectual rock stars.
Well that was that's what

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inspired it.
I actually the the director and

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00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,800
and his brother Smith
photographer two young men who

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I've worked with a number of
times and I'm more producing a

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new movie.
They're in.

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They're making.
They were fans.

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They first met me after some big
event and came up and fanboyed

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and.
And later on they were making a

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movie and asked if I would be a
do a cameo, a fiction movie.

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A science fiction movie called
Intersect came out seven years

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later and I did that.
But when we're filming, I was so

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impressed with the quality of
their production that I that I

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actually had them then film many
of my events and origins events

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that we did and and actually
they helped me create the

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Origins podcast initially.
But but there one day it

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literally was one day I was
about to do and go a tour of

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Australia in a month or
something and.

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And and and Gus Alberta said,
you know I'd love to do a rock

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00:14:00,750 --> 00:14:02,510
rock'n'roll tour film about
science.

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I mean I forgot the way you put
it, something like that.

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You know, where you know you've
seen all these movies of of rock

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tours.
And he he felt when he seen me,

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when that's what he thought when
he'd seen me or Richard, that it

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00:14:13,790 --> 00:14:16,070
was like a rock concert and he
thought it would be really fun

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to follow us around and.
And I'm, you know, I I managed

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to reach out some people and
raise enough money to it was

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00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,560
amazing. 3 weeks later a film
crew of five people were

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following us in Australia and
beginning to follow us around

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00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,440
the world in various places.
And it was a lot of fun.

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And I think it's, I happen I'm
biased, but I think they did a

269
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great job.
But the idea was more to sense

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the sense, the sense of this
community, of the response, the

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00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,480
desire to respond to the message
we're sending, which is to not

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follow us, but to think freely.
And and the real and the and the

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impact is is great.
I I I it changed my whole

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00:14:54,460 --> 00:14:56,180
perspective.
You know I used to fight against

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religious fundamentalism I still
do but and secular religious

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00:15:00,140 --> 00:15:04,820
fundamentalism but but but what
I realized I got so many letters

277
00:15:04,820 --> 00:15:07,220
from people who said you know
this movie makes you realize I'm

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not alone.
You know, I live in a small town

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in the South United States and.
I ask questions and and I

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realize if I bring up those
questions that people will think

281
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,040
of a bad person.
I have no one to talk to and

282
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,240
they think of themselves as bad
people for saying, well, is

283
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there a God?
And so now you know the sense

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that they realize they're not
bad people.

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And there's a lot of people who
think like that.

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That's really been useful.
So I think I really am glad that

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00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,110
movie got made.
Yeah, I mean, as a, well, I

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consider myself a kid from Cape
Town, South Africa, someone who

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grew up here in South Africa and
watching you guys.

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00:15:37,830 --> 00:15:39,910
And it's true.
You look for this community, you

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00:15:39,910 --> 00:15:43,190
look for people who sort of
think alike and it's sometimes

292
00:15:43,190 --> 00:15:44,790
tough to find.
And then you see these people

293
00:15:44,790 --> 00:15:47,030
who write such eloquent books
about this.

294
00:15:47,030 --> 00:15:49,430
And then you think, OK, this is
exactly what I'm trying to say,

295
00:15:50,150 --> 00:15:51,710
except you guys are saying it
for us.

296
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It's well, it's you know what
maybe I mean?

297
00:15:55,070 --> 00:15:56,710
Yeah.
Well, I mean, if that's useful,

298
00:15:56,710 --> 00:15:59,300
that's good too.
I mean I I some of my books are

299
00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:00,660
right.
We're hoping that people will be

300
00:16:00,660 --> 00:16:04,380
able to utilize them to address
conversations with other people

301
00:16:05,060 --> 00:16:12,060
and and you know and hopefully
it was also an also an

302
00:16:12,060 --> 00:16:15,380
entertaining movie too that way.
But it is amazing.

303
00:16:15,380 --> 00:16:18,540
It's really amazing that people
respond, you know, if I think

304
00:16:18,540 --> 00:16:22,380
the movie ends with the Reason
Rally in in Washington.

305
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,360
You know, there were, I don't
know how many thousand people,

306
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,800
but there were lots of people
and it was like a, it was

307
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,600
unbelievable.
And these people, the reason

308
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,640
they were so excited is that
they really had not been in a

309
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,920
environment where they felt that
sense of community.

310
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And that's what religion does,
by the way.

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It gives people a sense of
community and make people say,

312
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,440
well, if you know when you lose
your faith, you lose a sense of

313
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:44,760
community.
While you don't lose anything,

314
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,160
when you lose your faith, you
gain stuff.

315
00:16:46,570 --> 00:16:48,850
But many people have said, you
know, we should have the sense

316
00:16:48,850 --> 00:16:50,610
of community.
But what worries me is I don't

317
00:16:50,610 --> 00:16:53,450
want to replace churches with
atheist churches.

318
00:16:53,970 --> 00:16:57,650
Okay.
I mean, atheism is once again

319
00:16:57,650 --> 00:17:01,010
it's just an attitude and it's
not a political belief.

320
00:17:01,010 --> 00:17:05,530
It's not an ideology and it and
it can and should allow

321
00:17:05,530 --> 00:17:07,970
discussion with all.
I mean, it should subsume

322
00:17:09,050 --> 00:17:13,210
political beliefs and all the
rest instead of implying certain

323
00:17:13,210 --> 00:17:15,890
things.
And I will say that many people

324
00:17:15,890 --> 00:17:18,630
who.
Decry intelligent design?

325
00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:19,710
No.
Almost.

326
00:17:19,950 --> 00:17:24,190
You know and and and make fun of
religious people who who who

327
00:17:24,190 --> 00:17:26,630
speak about intelligence design
equally, have never really

328
00:17:26,630 --> 00:17:28,069
seriously thought about
evolution.

329
00:17:28,870 --> 00:17:31,510
So I mean it's all right to use
the bud words and I'm fine that

330
00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:34,350
I'd rather people accept at some
level.

331
00:17:34,710 --> 00:17:37,270
Look, we can't be experts in
everything, but when you look at

332
00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:40,030
something you say, well, who
might be most knowledgeable

333
00:17:40,030 --> 00:17:41,550
about?
Human evolution?

334
00:17:41,550 --> 00:17:43,350
Maybe it's biologists.
Okay.

335
00:17:43,350 --> 00:17:45,390
If they if they say this, well,
I'm not going to study it

336
00:17:45,390 --> 00:17:48,630
exactly, but I'm willing to
assume that they are probably a

337
00:17:48,630 --> 00:17:52,350
good starting point because we
don't have time to question and

338
00:17:52,350 --> 00:17:54,270
investigate everything that
everyone says.

339
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:57,350
Yeah.
Now I completely agree and

340
00:17:57,550 --> 00:18:00,790
there's I mean your book is
called I mean that the I know in

341
00:18:00,790 --> 00:18:03,990
America, I think you have to
change the title of the known

342
00:18:03,990 --> 00:18:05,510
unknowns.
It's called, it's things called

343
00:18:05,510 --> 00:18:09,210
the edge of Knowledge, right?
Yeah, the edge of it's called

344
00:18:09,210 --> 00:18:11,450
the edge of knowledge in the
United States, yes.

345
00:18:11,450 --> 00:18:15,210
And it's called the known
unknowns in in the UK and how do

346
00:18:15,210 --> 00:18:17,370
you feel about that because I
know I've heard you speak about

347
00:18:17,370 --> 00:18:18,330
it.
Well, how do you feel about the

348
00:18:18,330 --> 00:18:19,650
fact that you had to change that
title?

349
00:18:19,650 --> 00:18:21,370
I mean, is that something that
really I?

350
00:18:21,370 --> 00:18:23,490
Didn't have to.
I mean, well, I mean, you know,

351
00:18:23,530 --> 00:18:27,770
my publisher in the US thought
that the known unknowns would be

352
00:18:28,610 --> 00:18:32,330
polarizing because the quote
comes from Donald Rumsfeld.

353
00:18:32,850 --> 00:18:36,970
Now I say this, my publisher is
a is a is a conservative

354
00:18:36,970 --> 00:18:38,770
publisher.
Of a religious publisher in

355
00:18:38,770 --> 00:18:41,050
fact.
So it wasn't as if them liberal

356
00:18:41,050 --> 00:18:42,930
bias.
They just thought it would

357
00:18:42,930 --> 00:18:46,210
immediately polarize.
Actually, I don't mind

358
00:18:46,210 --> 00:18:48,170
immediately.
Well, I like provoking.

359
00:18:48,170 --> 00:18:50,290
I would prefer to provoke and
polarize.

360
00:18:50,770 --> 00:18:53,290
So they said we'd prefer another
title, and I came up.

361
00:18:53,330 --> 00:18:55,490
I mean, at the end of the book I
used the idea of the edge of

362
00:18:55,490 --> 00:19:06,240
knowledge and and so it it.
You know, I I it's confusing

363
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:07,560
because people think it's two
books.

364
00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:10,080
Yeah and maybe that's good maybe
people buy both.

365
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,480
But but, but I do like the known
Unknowns which was the original

366
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:15,840
title but I do like the edge
knowledge.

367
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:17,600
It captures what I'm trying to
talk about as well.

368
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,120
So I don't feel I had to
compromise in that sense.

369
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,800
I understood my publisher's
point and and the public you

370
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,280
know my editors and publishers
come up with titles.

371
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,440
The authors usually have very
little say.

372
00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:33,740
Do you think that there are not
enough scientific, well

373
00:19:33,740 --> 00:19:38,460
scientists who have that poetic
tact of approaching writing

374
00:19:38,460 --> 00:19:40,780
these books in a way that we can
read it?

375
00:19:40,780 --> 00:19:43,380
Or, well, people who are not
religious can read it in that

376
00:19:43,380 --> 00:19:46,580
almost religious sense, but not
too much to put to sort of

377
00:19:46,900 --> 00:19:49,860
become an A religion.
Is there like a?

378
00:19:49,860 --> 00:19:52,580
Well, I don't know.
I hope to inspire people to

379
00:19:52,580 --> 00:19:57,290
think and and and.
And you know, and and I

380
00:19:57,290 --> 00:19:59,290
obviously I know I have an
impact.

381
00:19:59,290 --> 00:20:01,930
People write me.
So it works at some level and I

382
00:20:01,930 --> 00:20:05,050
can't assess my own writing
objectively.

383
00:20:06,330 --> 00:20:10,250
But people people seem to like
it and you know it's I do what I

384
00:20:10,250 --> 00:20:12,170
can do.
You know, I have a friend, well,

385
00:20:12,170 --> 00:20:14,530
I have a lot of a very
significant friend who tells me

386
00:20:14,530 --> 00:20:18,610
that all the time who's suffered
a lot for what he's done but or

387
00:20:18,610 --> 00:20:23,210
for what he hasn't done actually
and and so.

388
00:20:24,180 --> 00:20:28,540
I I put out there what I what I
I write my books like I do for

389
00:20:28,540 --> 00:20:29,860
my science for myself.
All right.

390
00:20:29,860 --> 00:20:34,820
I I I do it because I need to do
it and I enjoy it and and I hope

391
00:20:34,820 --> 00:20:38,300
it has is useful but it's but
but once I've written it it's

392
00:20:38,420 --> 00:20:43,780
it's beyond my control.
I'm trying to think about I I

393
00:20:43,780 --> 00:20:46,020
will say, unlike many
scientists, perhaps because I

394
00:20:46,020 --> 00:20:47,860
spent a lot of time with the
public from the time I was

395
00:20:47,860 --> 00:20:51,500
young, I try and think what kind
of discussions, what kind of

396
00:20:51,500 --> 00:20:54,330
explanations might resonate.
But that's a property of just

397
00:20:54,330 --> 00:20:57,570
being a teacher, in my opinion.
You you have to go to where your

398
00:20:57,570 --> 00:21:00,450
students are instead of assuming
they're interested in what you

399
00:21:00,450 --> 00:21:02,370
have to say growing up.
Did you?

400
00:21:02,450 --> 00:21:05,610
Often tell teachers that's the
biggest mistake they make do

401
00:21:05,610 --> 00:21:06,810
growing up.
Did you ever feel that?

402
00:21:06,810 --> 00:21:10,450
Did you ever expect to be
someone who's so at the

403
00:21:10,450 --> 00:21:14,570
forefront of of the sort of
scientific thinking and non

404
00:21:14,570 --> 00:21:16,250
religious beliefs?
And I mean, you're almost,

405
00:21:16,250 --> 00:21:18,210
you're considered one of those
people you considered anti

406
00:21:18,210 --> 00:21:21,290
theists, but almost everybody.
Who sort of knows you?

407
00:21:22,170 --> 00:21:23,450
Did you ever think this would
happen?

408
00:21:25,330 --> 00:21:27,970
Well, I, you know, no.
Yes and no.

409
00:21:28,010 --> 00:21:30,610
But I mean what did I aspire to?
I don't know.

410
00:21:30,610 --> 00:21:34,410
I mean I admire the people who
something who do the kind of

411
00:21:34,410 --> 00:21:36,650
things I do now and and impacted
my life.

412
00:21:36,650 --> 00:21:40,690
The scientists writers who and
people who searched and

413
00:21:40,690 --> 00:21:43,610
discovered things and so yeah, I
wanted to be like them.

414
00:21:43,610 --> 00:21:46,490
But it wasn't.
I didn't have this trajectory is

415
00:21:46,490 --> 00:21:48,010
clear.
I mean I have my friends saying

416
00:21:48,010 --> 00:21:50,090
Neil Degrasse has had a clear
trajectory, exactly what you

417
00:21:50,090 --> 00:21:51,250
want to do and nothing got in
the way.

418
00:21:51,690 --> 00:21:53,490
And I, you know I just plant
seeds.

419
00:21:53,490 --> 00:21:56,890
So I, yeah, I like I I need to
write at some level.

420
00:21:56,890 --> 00:22:00,770
But I mean my son, I I hoped I
guess at some level when I when

421
00:22:00,770 --> 00:22:03,450
I was younger I hoped that I
would be in the position I

422
00:22:03,450 --> 00:22:07,090
admired that of those that I
admired who who encouraged me to

423
00:22:07,090 --> 00:22:09,130
do what I do.
And a number of times in my life

424
00:22:09,130 --> 00:22:12,490
I found myself in that position
and it's it's kind of humbling

425
00:22:12,490 --> 00:22:18,890
and scary but also satisfying if
you think about it correctly and

426
00:22:18,930 --> 00:22:26,770
and but once again you know I
don't I don't think I had that I

427
00:22:26,770 --> 00:22:30,530
I do what I do and it and where
it ends up and how I end up is

428
00:22:30,530 --> 00:22:34,570
is beyond my control.
But but yeah, I'm I'm sure I

429
00:22:34,570 --> 00:22:36,930
wanted to.
I'm sure I I was.

430
00:22:36,930 --> 00:22:40,440
I like the idea of being thought
of as in the same vein of some

431
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,080
of the people who I admired when
I was younger.

432
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:43,960
And I won't mention names
because that suggests I put

433
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,120
myself in the same in the same
vein.

434
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:48,800
And I'm not going to suggest
that you can.

435
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:50,160
Other people can.
I don't care.

436
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,840
I know someone.
Who you really love is as

437
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,560
Galileo.
And the way he wrote his writing

438
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,840
style, I mean, is that let's
make one thing clear, Lawrence

439
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,280
Krauss is no Galileo.
But anyway, go on.

440
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,080
I know.
I do like, you know, I do.

441
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,920
I do.
I do like the fact that Galileo

442
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,680
was not a, you know, invented
modern science.

443
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,800
The father, well, actually his
father was the father of modern

444
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,320
science.
But anyway, you and you read

445
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:17,800
about how his father taught him
what to do.

446
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,360
He realized why he grew up the
way he was.

447
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:25,400
But but he he his books.
You know when we.

448
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,640
You know somehow teachers would
never think of giving requiring

449
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,240
students to read the two new
sciences.

450
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,680
But as I point out they don't
think twice about having

451
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,680
students read James Joyce and
Ulysses and I think it's the

452
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,080
former is easier than latter and
and funny and so I mean he's

453
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:43,240
he's sarcastic he's witty.
It's worth seeing.

454
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,640
And I tell people, I like
science writers, don't get me

455
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,680
wrong and I'm science
journalists do an important job.

456
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:50,720
But I tell people they're going
to read books about science.

457
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,120
They should read ones written by
scientists because it gives you

458
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:56,560
a flavor of the kind of thinking
that scientists do and it's kind

459
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:01,030
of important and and and and I
think that that's the dialogue

460
00:24:01,590 --> 00:24:08,590
the the the well I'll call it
the dialogue that it's very

461
00:24:09,070 --> 00:24:10,710
sharp.
Place in the dialogues the

462
00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:13,950
What's the word that Marx used
to use for two competing.

463
00:24:14,070 --> 00:24:18,310
Anyway.
I used to think I've gone to my

464
00:24:18,310 --> 00:24:23,070
mind right now anyway, that that
dialogue is the central part of

465
00:24:23,070 --> 00:24:28,140
science, because science
requires people to to, to, to

466
00:24:28,140 --> 00:24:31,500
criticize the issue that was was
that at almost?

467
00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:33,820
Dissociation, that dissociative
type of thinking where you can

468
00:24:33,820 --> 00:24:38,100
like, yeah, what's the Marxist
term for that, I think.

469
00:24:38,820 --> 00:24:40,500
I got a country.
Anyway, it starts with a D

470
00:24:40,540 --> 00:24:42,620
Anyway, my mind is gone.
I'm sorry.

471
00:24:44,380 --> 00:24:47,820
I think that's that's pretty
apparent in your in your writing

472
00:24:47,820 --> 00:24:49,540
as well.
I mean overall when when you're

473
00:24:49,540 --> 00:24:52,100
looking at you want to have that
sort of width, that ability to

474
00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:55,080
make the audience laugh.
And sort of deeper about the

475
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,880
topic and you but most most of
all you want that sort of deep

476
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,800
or inspiring feel of of what
most religious takes do but from

477
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,040
your own non believing sort of
perspective.

478
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,120
Well, I mean, look, by the way,
I mean, I think humor is a

479
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:10,920
central part.
Well, humor is a central part of

480
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,640
my life because it helps me get
through the day.

481
00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:16,640
And I think you know it when it
if you're writing about science,

482
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,680
people are intimidated.
And so one has to think about

483
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,460
ways to try and reduce that
intimidation and sometimes

484
00:25:23,460 --> 00:25:26,980
connecting to culture like the
physics of Star Trek is, you

485
00:25:26,980 --> 00:25:29,180
know, one of my books is one
way, but another way I think is

486
00:25:29,180 --> 00:25:33,980
humor because it it brings down
those barriers, you know, and

487
00:25:35,140 --> 00:25:42,540
and and so I think that's
essential.

488
00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:46,060
Well, I I write the way I speak
or think at least anyway.

489
00:25:46,060 --> 00:25:49,220
And I think humor keeps humor
keeps me interested enough to

490
00:25:49,220 --> 00:25:50,980
write much.
Let's read.

491
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,000
So I guess that's another hope.
Tomorrow I have.

492
00:25:55,000 --> 00:26:00,520
An interview planned with Avi
Loeb and I'm curious to know

493
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,080
because when I put out the fact
that I'm chatting to you and I

494
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,240
also questions, people went
berserk regarding UFOs.

495
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,610
They were like, do not ask.
Lawrence, about anything

496
00:26:09,610 --> 00:26:13,250
regarding uaps because they
really seem to not like your

497
00:26:13,250 --> 00:26:14,770
responses.
So I'm curious to know what's

498
00:26:14,770 --> 00:26:16,970
your take on it now?
Oh, I'm glad they don't like my

499
00:26:16,970 --> 00:26:18,770
responses.
I'm not sure.

500
00:26:18,770 --> 00:26:20,330
I'm glad of that, coming from
those.

501
00:26:20,330 --> 00:26:23,290
Who I wrote a whole book One of
my books beyond Star Trek, So

502
00:26:23,290 --> 00:26:29,570
demonstrates, you know, I'm
having a dialogue in New York

503
00:26:29,570 --> 00:26:33,330
City on December 1st.
I I for a long 2530 years ago I

504
00:26:33,330 --> 00:26:35,650
used to debate these UFO
ologists and then I got tired of

505
00:26:35,650 --> 00:26:37,640
it because they were making a
living.

506
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:44,320
Hucks during this stuff but look
it's just the the best line is

507
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,880
comes from that of Richard
Feynman who said they when it

508
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,160
comes to sort of UFO and aliens
he thinks Ufo's are much more

509
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,120
likely due to the known
irrationality of humans rather

510
00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:57,800
than the unknown rationality of
aliens.

511
00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:00,520
The bottom line is, when you
think of the laws of physics,

512
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,330
the least likely, it's so weird.
When people see something up in

513
00:27:05,330 --> 00:27:08,250
the sky they don't understand
it's immediately aliens and and

514
00:27:08,330 --> 00:27:11,050
and flight saucers.
It used to be fairies and as

515
00:27:11,050 --> 00:27:13,330
Carl Sagan pointed out in the,
you know, 200 years ago.

516
00:27:13,810 --> 00:27:18,770
But the least likely possibility
of every possibility that could

517
00:27:18,770 --> 00:27:22,650
happen, the least likely is that
it's aliens coming to visit us.

518
00:27:22,650 --> 00:27:29,770
Because the laws of physics make
it so implausible, has to be

519
00:27:29,770 --> 00:27:33,270
less likely than anything, less
likely than the you know,

520
00:27:33,270 --> 00:27:35,590
certainly that's likely than the
magic bullet that killed John

521
00:27:35,590 --> 00:27:39,030
Kennedy or or or you know, went
through three people and bounce

522
00:27:39,030 --> 00:27:41,710
away from anything you can think
of, no matter how wild, is more

523
00:27:41,710 --> 00:27:43,670
likely.
And then moreover there's not a

524
00:27:43,670 --> 00:27:46,630
single piece of evidence
evidence in a real sense.

525
00:27:47,030 --> 00:27:50,710
You know, eyewitness testimony,
not being that and and and and

526
00:27:50,750 --> 00:27:56,230
and photographs we we all know
are are are suspicious.

527
00:27:56,430 --> 00:27:59,310
Well, you have to be skeptical.
And the bottom line is this

528
00:27:59,310 --> 00:28:02,670
notion of a conspiracy is so
ridiculous.

529
00:28:03,390 --> 00:28:05,590
Anyone who knows anything about
the government knows look the

530
00:28:05,590 --> 00:28:09,310
money you would make if you
could just come up and say here

531
00:28:09,310 --> 00:28:11,630
look here's a salient body I
have that we stored.

532
00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:15,910
You know and here here's, you
know come investigate it, you

533
00:28:15,910 --> 00:28:19,150
know and or here's here's a
here's a tricorder from you

534
00:28:19,150 --> 00:28:26,190
know, the 23rd century.
The government governments can't

535
00:28:26,190 --> 00:28:29,910
keep secrets and and especially
when there's a lot of money

536
00:28:29,910 --> 00:28:34,620
involved and and and so that the
ridiculousness of assuming that

537
00:28:34,620 --> 00:28:38,300
there's a vast network of of
secrecy that's somehow

538
00:28:38,300 --> 00:28:41,180
effectively hiding something
where every single person

539
00:28:41,180 --> 00:28:45,140
involved has a huge personal
interest in violating that

540
00:28:45,140 --> 00:28:47,500
secrecy.
I mean, it's more plausible than

541
00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:51,060
the Ufo's themselves.
That is really true.

542
00:28:52,180 --> 00:28:54,020
When I spoke to Michael Sherman,
he said, I mean, the null

543
00:28:54,020 --> 00:28:55,740
hypothesis is true until proven
otherwise.

544
00:28:55,740 --> 00:28:58,300
I mean, you can't.
I mean, he wants extraordinary

545
00:28:58,380 --> 00:29:00,380
evidence to back an
extraordinary claim.

546
00:29:00,930 --> 00:29:01,970
Well it's an extraordinary
claim.

547
00:29:01,970 --> 00:29:03,170
You certainly need extra
evidence.

548
00:29:03,290 --> 00:29:07,130
You know I null hypothesis you
know it's all too high.

549
00:29:07,330 --> 00:29:13,850
Sounds too philosophical for me.
Bottom line is that that that

550
00:29:13,850 --> 00:29:17,490
you need evidence to to accept
it to begin to accept something

551
00:29:17,490 --> 00:29:21,450
especially in in principle you
should be suspicious of and and

552
00:29:21,450 --> 00:29:23,810
skeptical of everything that
people say.

553
00:29:23,810 --> 00:29:26,130
Now obviously in real life you
can't be, but when scientists,

554
00:29:26,130 --> 00:29:29,210
that's that's the that's the way
it works.

555
00:29:29,610 --> 00:29:38,880
OK, and and and and so yeah.
So if it is something weird and

556
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,320
wild and like whether it's a
scientific paper or aliens, I

557
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,640
generally assume it's wrong
unless someone convinces me

558
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,280
otherwise.
And even then it might still be

559
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,200
wrong a.
Lot of people think you have

560
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,840
beef with philosophers, and I
don't know, you'd really don't,

561
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,200
but there's just a part of
science that I think you really

562
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,730
prefer over philosophy.
Well, I prefer science because,

563
00:30:02,010 --> 00:30:08,890
you know, I prefer science.
But I mean philosophy and

564
00:30:08,970 --> 00:30:10,890
dialectic, that's the word I was
thinking about.

565
00:30:10,890 --> 00:30:12,530
My own mind is gone.
Marx is dialectic.

566
00:30:12,810 --> 00:30:15,850
That's that's.
Yeah, I'm sorry, my mind, I was

567
00:30:15,850 --> 00:30:17,850
just half of my mind was
thinking about something else,

568
00:30:17,850 --> 00:30:20,290
trying to get it.
That's what science is based on.

569
00:30:20,930 --> 00:30:24,050
But you know, look, science,
philosophical questions are part

570
00:30:24,050 --> 00:30:27,410
of science.
They're a starting point, asking

571
00:30:27,410 --> 00:30:30,810
critical questions and then
science takes off from that by

572
00:30:30,810 --> 00:30:32,770
experimentation and testing and
all the rest.

573
00:30:33,290 --> 00:30:35,970
So, so it's we're all doing
philosophy.

574
00:30:36,330 --> 00:30:40,370
It's just when people get hung
up on the philosophical

575
00:30:40,370 --> 00:30:45,530
questions themselves rather than
if they're divorced from

576
00:30:45,530 --> 00:30:51,050
science, then I I have little
patience but but I respect the

577
00:30:51,090 --> 00:30:53,850
the need to do critical
analysis, especially in new

578
00:30:53,850 --> 00:30:58,350
fields.
But I also recognize that reason

579
00:30:58,350 --> 00:31:03,110
is a slave of passion, and I
often recognize I talked about

580
00:31:03,110 --> 00:31:06,950
it with with Robert Sapolsky and
some of my atheist colleagues

581
00:31:06,950 --> 00:31:10,150
were also philosophers say
ridiculous things about free

582
00:31:10,150 --> 00:31:12,590
will because you can convince
yourself of anything if you want

583
00:31:12,590 --> 00:31:15,110
to rationalize it.
I think the great thing about

584
00:31:15,430 --> 00:31:18,630
nature, the reason I like
science, is that it's not talk,

585
00:31:18,630 --> 00:31:21,750
it's not rationalization.
It's not just purely rational

586
00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:25,100
analysis.
I mean, mathematics is in a in a

587
00:31:25,100 --> 00:31:28,100
well defined sense, and the best
parts of philosophy in my mind

588
00:31:28,140 --> 00:31:30,580
are mathematical 1 philosophy,
logic.

589
00:31:30,980 --> 00:31:33,740
But but nature tells you when
you're wrong.

590
00:31:33,740 --> 00:31:36,500
That's what's wonderful.
And we are so easy for us to go

591
00:31:36,500 --> 00:31:40,180
down the wrong Rd. even with our
kind of rational thinking that

592
00:31:40,180 --> 00:31:43,100
we constantly have to keep our
turning to nature to tell us if

593
00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:44,860
we're on the wrong path.
And usually we are.

594
00:31:46,340 --> 00:31:50,570
You know, so, so it's the
pompousness, it's the

595
00:31:50,570 --> 00:31:53,130
pompousness of it's the hype
itself with anything.

596
00:31:53,130 --> 00:31:54,690
But when people say, well you
can't.

597
00:31:54,850 --> 00:31:57,330
With some philosophers saying,
well you really can't you know,

598
00:31:57,330 --> 00:31:59,730
do quantum mechanics or even try
and understand unless you're in

599
00:31:59,730 --> 00:32:03,010
the philosophical literature,
that's nonsense because no

600
00:32:03,010 --> 00:32:06,410
physicists who do it for the
first approximation read the

601
00:32:06,410 --> 00:32:07,970
philosophical literature.
That doesn't mean the

602
00:32:07,970 --> 00:32:10,570
philosophical literature is an
interesting important for

603
00:32:10,570 --> 00:32:14,010
philosophers, but it doesn't
impact on physicists, most of

604
00:32:14,010 --> 00:32:18,200
whom, as I've said in the past,
can't spell philosophy someone.

605
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,680
Someone commented saying science
without philosophy is religion.

606
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,200
What do you think about that?
Well, I don't know what you mean

607
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,480
by science without philosophy,
so it's a nice sentence.

608
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,120
But what do you mean?
Philosophy is critical analysis,

609
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,720
critical questioning and
followed by rational analysis.

610
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,800
And that's a part of science.
So that's why science was called

611
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,160
natural philosophy.
So science without philosophy

612
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,760
isn't science in a sense.
It's just that science is more

613
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,720
than what you define as
certainly professional

614
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,880
philosophy.
Okay, I think.

615
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,360
And the key aspect of that is
experiments, I think.

616
00:32:53,400 --> 00:33:00,440
And that taking our taking our
direction from experiments

617
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,840
rather than from purely rational
critical questioning and

618
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:05,760
analysis, I think another way
to.

619
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,800
Think about It is also like
philosophy without science.

620
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,480
I look back and I think, I mean,
I love philosophy, but I think

621
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,080
of someone like Daniel Dennetton
at a time where many

622
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,400
philosophers really disregarded
science, and when he came out

623
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,360
with a lot of his work, it was
really apparent that they were

624
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,160
completely ignoring scientific
data.

625
00:33:23,110 --> 00:33:23,990
Yeah.
Yeah he's that.

626
00:33:23,990 --> 00:33:26,230
That's one of the things I've
enjoyed about Dan Tenet although

627
00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:31,790
he also tends to do that but but
because he can his philosopher.

628
00:33:31,790 --> 00:33:35,110
But but yeah the philosophers
that I admire most of the ones

629
00:33:35,110 --> 00:33:38,630
who keep who are remaining in
great touch with what's going on

630
00:33:38,630 --> 00:33:40,950
in with the science.
And the bottom line is and I

631
00:33:40,950 --> 00:33:44,310
said in the book, I mean I think
the one area where you know

632
00:33:44,350 --> 00:33:46,990
physics began with philosophy
but it's gone way past it.

633
00:33:47,310 --> 00:33:49,630
The questions of interest of
physicists are not the questions

634
00:33:49,710 --> 00:33:52,260
1st and philosophers period.
For the most part.

635
00:33:52,260 --> 00:33:55,100
I mean we are you know what's
the nature of reality and you

636
00:33:55,100 --> 00:34:00,580
know what is time These maybe
but but I mean but but but

637
00:34:00,580 --> 00:34:04,180
they're not what Dr. physicists
and they're not not the

638
00:34:04,180 --> 00:34:07,300
questions as framed by
philosophers those aren't what

639
00:34:07,420 --> 00:34:09,739
Dr. Physicists.
But in the newest area of

640
00:34:09,739 --> 00:34:11,739
science, that's where you need
philosophy to frame the

641
00:34:11,739 --> 00:34:14,179
questions.
And that's why consciousness is

642
00:34:14,179 --> 00:34:18,449
the area where philosophers are
contributing as much in many

643
00:34:18,449 --> 00:34:21,130
ways as neuroscientists and
psychologists and

644
00:34:21,130 --> 00:34:23,929
neurobiologists.
Because the questions themselves

645
00:34:23,929 --> 00:34:27,330
are are not well defined yet and
and not well framed.

646
00:34:27,969 --> 00:34:30,210
And so you have people like
Dennett and other people and and

647
00:34:30,210 --> 00:34:34,250
Patricia Churchland and other,
you know, philosophers and and

648
00:34:34,250 --> 00:34:37,929
while Chomsky's both, I'd say,
but philosophers who?

649
00:34:38,330 --> 00:34:41,170
Who?
Who are deeply involved in

650
00:34:41,170 --> 00:34:44,050
asking questions about the mind,
because we don't even know what

651
00:34:44,050 --> 00:34:48,550
the freaking heck the mind is.
I mean, so you.

652
00:34:48,670 --> 00:34:51,630
I think there's clearly a
problem because a lot of people

653
00:34:51,630 --> 00:34:55,230
nowadays use quantum mechanics
and physics to defend theories

654
00:34:55,230 --> 00:34:57,070
of mind that that go beyond
Europe.

655
00:34:57,670 --> 00:35:00,070
None of them understand what
mechanics is when they're using

656
00:35:00,070 --> 00:35:01,470
them.
That's the problem.

657
00:35:01,630 --> 00:35:03,630
That being said, I mean, I
talked to Sebasky about it.

658
00:35:03,630 --> 00:35:05,790
He talked to someone else,
colleague, minor.

659
00:35:05,790 --> 00:35:10,070
I don't prickly.
Anyway doesn't matter and you

660
00:35:10,070 --> 00:35:13,070
know he was trying hard but I
think he didn't understand and

661
00:35:13,070 --> 00:35:15,590
he's the first person to say he
doesn't understand the quantum

662
00:35:15,590 --> 00:35:18,070
mechanics but people use it
because it looks like it somehow

663
00:35:18,070 --> 00:35:20,470
changes the world the
deterministic world.

664
00:35:20,470 --> 00:35:24,190
It doesn't but I mean it changes
what we mean by measurement.

665
00:35:24,630 --> 00:35:28,310
But you know look a lot of no
one is fine and said no one

666
00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:32,270
understands quantum mechanics
that's why but but but many

667
00:35:32,270 --> 00:35:34,670
people who use it.
I'd say a quantum mechanics is

668
00:35:34,670 --> 00:35:39,370
the most abused part of science.
I when I many years ago, I was

669
00:35:39,370 --> 00:35:43,530
part of the panel of public
affairs of the American Physical

670
00:35:43,530 --> 00:35:46,010
Society and I tried to get them
to come out with a statement

671
00:35:46,010 --> 00:35:47,410
about the abuse of quantum
mechanics.

672
00:35:47,730 --> 00:35:50,250
People with a secret and all
this nonsense that if you think

673
00:35:50,250 --> 00:35:52,650
about the world you can change
it, you know think about the

674
00:35:52,650 --> 00:35:55,370
world you can change it, but
only if you do something just

675
00:35:55,370 --> 00:35:56,850
thinking it's not going to
change anything.

676
00:35:57,250 --> 00:36:00,650
And and I tried to get the right
statement, but in the end they

677
00:36:00,650 --> 00:36:04,490
wouldn't because they're timid
and and now it's kind of useless

678
00:36:04,490 --> 00:36:07,210
organization anyway.
Do you think that?

679
00:36:07,210 --> 00:36:10,930
People's miss misinterpretation
of quantum mechanics stems from

680
00:36:10,930 --> 00:36:13,490
our lack of truly understanding
what reality is.

681
00:36:14,610 --> 00:36:16,890
Well look, our lack of
understand quantum mechanics is

682
00:36:16,890 --> 00:36:18,810
that we don't experience the
quantum world.

683
00:36:19,650 --> 00:36:22,090
You know general relativity and
express relativity are easy

684
00:36:22,090 --> 00:36:24,650
because we, I mean they're
generalizations of things we can

685
00:36:24,650 --> 00:36:28,170
picture like curved surfaces and
that they're harder and and you

686
00:36:28,170 --> 00:36:30,330
know 4 dimensional space is not
something picture but we can

687
00:36:30,690 --> 00:36:35,090
understand the classical and
analogs pretty well and even you

688
00:36:35,090 --> 00:36:38,290
know special relativity as well.
I mean the kind of thought the

689
00:36:38,290 --> 00:36:42,530
Gdunkin experiments of Einstein.
But the world is quantum

690
00:36:42,530 --> 00:36:44,450
mechanical at a fundamental
level but it's not the world we

691
00:36:44,450 --> 00:36:46,850
experience.
So we can never have this really

692
00:36:46,850 --> 00:36:51,330
truly intuitive understanding of
it at a full level.

693
00:36:51,970 --> 00:36:54,570
You know, we build those of us
who work with it build up that,

694
00:36:54,570 --> 00:36:55,730
and the experimentalists build
that.

695
00:36:55,730 --> 00:36:59,370
We can test our ideas and we
build up an understanding, but

696
00:36:59,370 --> 00:37:04,330
but not a complete one, not a,
not an intuitive one.

697
00:37:04,690 --> 00:37:07,650
Which is why Feynman said that
about quantum mechanics and why

698
00:37:07,650 --> 00:37:09,210
he was interested in quantum
computing.

699
00:37:09,890 --> 00:37:11,850
Because he said it would maybe
help him understand quantum

700
00:37:11,850 --> 00:37:15,210
mechanics, because a quantum
computer thinks, it doesn't

701
00:37:15,210 --> 00:37:18,890
think, but it it, it uses
quantum mechanics directly to

702
00:37:18,890 --> 00:37:22,130
calculate things.
Whereas physicists use sort of

703
00:37:22,130 --> 00:37:26,170
classical kluges to kind of
calculate quantum mechanical

704
00:37:26,170 --> 00:37:28,570
processes.
Quantum mechanical processes

705
00:37:28,570 --> 00:37:32,530
involve a huge number of things
going on at the same time

706
00:37:32,970 --> 00:37:35,770
interfering in a way that that
results in something.

707
00:37:35,770 --> 00:37:39,410
But but classically we have to
we have to in order to do that

708
00:37:39,410 --> 00:37:41,530
we have to we have to calculate
all of those things that are

709
00:37:41,530 --> 00:37:43,010
going on and see what
interferes.

710
00:37:43,010 --> 00:37:45,770
And computationally it's
difficult and that's why quantum

711
00:37:45,770 --> 00:37:48,850
computers may affect, may allow
us to do quantum mechanical

712
00:37:48,850 --> 00:37:50,530
calculations we could never do
otherwise.

713
00:37:51,050 --> 00:37:54,330
So he he was interested in
quantum computers not because he

714
00:37:54,330 --> 00:37:57,050
wanted to crack codes of banks
or other things that people

715
00:37:57,130 --> 00:37:59,290
think quantum computers might
one day do, although they won't.

716
00:38:01,830 --> 00:38:03,990
He was more interested in using
it as a tool to understand

717
00:38:03,990 --> 00:38:06,310
quantum mechanics and to solve
quantum mechanical problems that

718
00:38:06,310 --> 00:38:09,150
he couldn't solve.
On that now, do you think at

719
00:38:09,150 --> 00:38:11,550
some point we can create sort of
artificial and conscious

720
00:38:11,710 --> 00:38:15,470
artificial consciousness from
computers and quantum computers

721
00:38:15,470 --> 00:38:17,350
in the future?
Who knows?

722
00:38:17,430 --> 00:38:19,910
I see no obstacle to it.
I mean, there's nothing.

723
00:38:20,750 --> 00:38:25,590
It's you know we're a physical
system and we work and and and

724
00:38:25,590 --> 00:38:29,710
we apparently have a
consciousness and So what I see

725
00:38:29,710 --> 00:38:33,850
no obstacle to I don't know
whether neural Nets or or

726
00:38:33,850 --> 00:38:37,410
quantum computers were the right
direction but I see no obstacle

727
00:38:37,410 --> 00:38:39,890
to to ultimate.
I mean there are lots of

728
00:38:39,890 --> 00:38:43,610
challenges.
The amount of many years ago I

729
00:38:43,610 --> 00:38:48,370
calculated that the amount of
power needed to you know do

730
00:38:48,370 --> 00:38:51,490
anything like processing in your
brain was like 10 Tera watts if

731
00:38:51,490 --> 00:38:55,450
you used an electronic computer
and we used 10 watts or 20

732
00:38:55,450 --> 00:38:57,090
watts.
So you're talking a million

733
00:38:57,090 --> 00:38:59,330
million times different.
There is clearly some difference

734
00:38:59,330 --> 00:39:02,820
in now that's been come down by
a factor of 1000 or 100,000 or

735
00:39:02,820 --> 00:39:05,740
1,000,000 but it's still a big
difference So we we have to

736
00:39:05,740 --> 00:39:08,820
learn how the brain does what it
does and that you know and maybe

737
00:39:08,820 --> 00:39:10,020
we'll find a better way to do
it.

738
00:39:10,380 --> 00:39:14,380
So maybe you know maybe I don't
think it's either artificial or

739
00:39:14,380 --> 00:39:17,460
intelligent right now but maybe
maybe we'll develop machines

740
00:39:17,460 --> 00:39:20,180
that can do do it more
effectively than we can because

741
00:39:20,540 --> 00:39:25,020
we are consciousness arose out
of evolution which and it and

742
00:39:25,020 --> 00:39:30,300
it's clear that that that the
it's probably clear that the

743
00:39:31,540 --> 00:39:38,060
challenge that resulted in a
conscious self aware brain

744
00:39:39,700 --> 00:39:43,460
probably wasn't you know
resulted from other needs of

745
00:39:43,460 --> 00:39:47,430
organisms and and not not to be
able to solve quantum mechanics

746
00:39:47,430 --> 00:39:51,830
problems for sure and so it's
come out by evolution and

747
00:39:51,830 --> 00:39:54,310
evolution is a great but there
may be more efficient ways to

748
00:39:54,350 --> 00:39:57,870
produce it otherwise a.
Quote from Marvin Minsky comes

749
00:39:57,870 --> 00:40:01,830
to mind when he I mean, he once
says that the trick of creating

750
00:40:02,190 --> 00:40:04,910
artificial intelligence that can
ask the question am I conscious

751
00:40:04,910 --> 00:40:08,550
now it's a problem because
humans really ask that question.

752
00:40:08,830 --> 00:40:10,990
But most of the time, on
autopilot, we barely know what's

753
00:40:10,990 --> 00:40:13,430
happening.
Yeah, yeah, no.

754
00:40:13,430 --> 00:40:16,270
And you know, and it's that's
the, you know, there's this big

755
00:40:16,270 --> 00:40:17,910
touring questions that you
wonder.

756
00:40:18,750 --> 00:40:22,710
But you know, one thing is is
coming up, you know, chat.

757
00:40:22,710 --> 00:40:25,430
GPT can do a great job of
answering questions and

758
00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:28,710
mimicking things, but it's
asking the questions.

759
00:40:29,430 --> 00:40:31,790
That really is the sign of, I
think, intelligence.

760
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,240
And of course then it's
understanding what you mean when

761
00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:38,240
you ask the questions, which
it's not clear whether it's that

762
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,080
the machine would do.
But there ultimately may be no

763
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,000
way to tell the difference
between that and what people do.

764
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,160
Many people probably don't
understand the meaning of

765
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,920
questions they ask anyway, but
but it's asking the questions,

766
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,600
It's not answering them.
That's a sign of intelligence,

767
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:54,240
which is why I think we have to
change where we teach in schools

768
00:40:54,240 --> 00:40:58,480
and instead of compiling facts
as if it's an evidence of

769
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,360
intelligence, teaching people
how to ask questions.

770
00:41:02,020 --> 00:41:04,740
And that's the voyage of
discovery at this point in your.

771
00:41:04,740 --> 00:41:06,860
Life What questions are you
asking most?

772
00:41:06,900 --> 00:41:09,740
And what's really getting under
your skin nowadays?

773
00:41:12,340 --> 00:41:13,900
Well, lots of things are getting
under my skin.

774
00:41:13,900 --> 00:41:17,980
That's why I write most often
what's happening in society,

775
00:41:17,980 --> 00:41:21,620
especially the part of society
that the political part of

776
00:41:21,620 --> 00:41:27,420
society that I thought I related
most to secular ideology.

777
00:41:27,420 --> 00:41:32,430
The free speech going at the
window and heresy,

778
00:41:32,990 --> 00:41:36,310
unquestionable assumptions.
All of that drives me nuts

779
00:41:36,310 --> 00:41:41,310
because that's an anathema to my
whole being as a scientist, you

780
00:41:41,310 --> 00:41:42,550
know.
But there are tons of scientific

781
00:41:42,550 --> 00:41:44,670
questions that get nervous skin.
They've gotten nervous skin for

782
00:41:44,670 --> 00:41:46,390
a long time.
And then that dark energy, which

783
00:41:46,390 --> 00:41:49,470
I proposed 30 years ago, is
still on.

784
00:41:49,470 --> 00:41:51,910
We don't understand it.
And what you know and and is

785
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:56,950
there more than one universe and
how how can we discover the

786
00:41:56,950 --> 00:41:58,950
nature of dark matter?
Those are questions.

787
00:41:59,110 --> 00:42:06,190
Scientific questions.
I I I asked myself and and you

788
00:42:06,190 --> 00:42:08,310
know different things get under
my skin and then I usually write

789
00:42:08,310 --> 00:42:11,590
about it whether or not that
producer something it gets

790
00:42:11,590 --> 00:42:14,790
published just sort of gets it
off my chest in.

791
00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:17,910
Terms of a string theory and and
multiverses in general I mean.

792
00:42:18,110 --> 00:42:19,710
Well have your thoughts changed
overtime?

793
00:42:19,710 --> 00:42:21,030
What?
Where is your views at at the

794
00:42:21,030 --> 00:42:21,870
moment?
I hope so.

795
00:42:21,870 --> 00:42:23,630
If they didn't change every
time, you'd be awesome.

796
00:42:25,830 --> 00:42:29,350
Well, look, I no, I mean some
fundamental things haven't.

797
00:42:29,950 --> 00:42:32,310
String theory still has not
demonstrated it's the theory of

798
00:42:32,310 --> 00:42:35,230
the world in which we live.
It's produced a lot more than I

799
00:42:35,230 --> 00:42:40,470
would have thought it might
mathematically and useful in

800
00:42:40,470 --> 00:42:43,830
other physical problems.
But it's certainly never done

801
00:42:43,830 --> 00:42:46,190
what it claimed it would.
It would do, but but it's

802
00:42:46,190 --> 00:42:51,870
morphed into something much more
complex that led to kind of

803
00:42:51,870 --> 00:42:55,320
interesting questions Holography
and duality.

804
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,280
But but yeah, no, I'm imposed to
hype in it, you know, That's why

805
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,360
I imposed the hype of a
consciousness books.

806
00:43:01,720 --> 00:43:03,560
I was supposed to hype of string
theory.

807
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,860
It's the theory of everything.
Because you know, as as a Nobel

808
00:43:06,860 --> 00:43:09,660
Prize winning colleague of mine
once said, string theory is

809
00:43:09,660 --> 00:43:12,220
promising.
And it's promising and promising

810
00:43:12,220 --> 00:43:15,460
and keeps promising but but it
hasn't delivered yet.

811
00:43:15,980 --> 00:43:17,820
Lawrence, if you.
If you had to have been close, I

812
00:43:17,820 --> 00:43:19,460
mean, I know you're tight on
time.

813
00:43:19,460 --> 00:43:23,020
If you had to give me like your
brief summary of our universe

814
00:43:23,100 --> 00:43:26,820
verse in a nutshell and our
attempts at a theory of

815
00:43:26,820 --> 00:43:28,740
everything, how would you give
the story to someone?

816
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,520
I think Steven Hawkey wrote a
universe in a Nutshell.

817
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,840
You could read his book wouldn't
be clear.

818
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:42,440
Look, we we have a universe
that's that's describable right

819
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,960
now as far as we can tell at all
scales, by 4 forces.

820
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,720
No evidence yet for any other
force and it's amazing.

821
00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:49,320
Force, simple force, all of
which have the same

822
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:56,440
mathematical, mathematical basis
and called gauge theories.

823
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,280
And those four forces we think
are probably tied together, but

824
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,360
we don't know how.
We know two of them get tied

825
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,280
together that we can
electromagnetic force, and many

826
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:11,800
of us think that they probably
are at a fundamental level, may

827
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,800
be tied together.
But what we do know is that two

828
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,000
of the fundamental pillars of
our modern understanding of the

829
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:18,840
world, one is general
relativity, which is theory of

830
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,520
space and time, and the other
which is quantum mechanics,

831
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:25,040
which underlies the the the
microscopic behavior of the

832
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,110
other forces in nature.
Those two things are

833
00:44:28,110 --> 00:44:31,830
inconsistent, apparently, as far
as we can tell, and something

834
00:44:31,830 --> 00:44:34,550
has to give.
And the big question is what

835
00:44:35,390 --> 00:44:37,310
those?
And the big question is not such

836
00:44:37,310 --> 00:44:39,150
a big question.
That's the other thing.

837
00:44:39,150 --> 00:44:40,710
The Theory of Everything is not
a theory very much.

838
00:44:40,710 --> 00:44:42,950
It's actually very, very little
in the sense that a

839
00:44:43,110 --> 00:44:46,590
reconciliation of quantum
mechanics and gravity would be

840
00:44:46,590 --> 00:44:50,550
important in two areas, the
beginning of the universe and

841
00:44:50,550 --> 00:44:52,110
the ultimate nature of black
holes.

842
00:44:53,210 --> 00:44:55,050
But you don't need it for any of
the other things you need to

843
00:44:55,050 --> 00:44:57,650
describe the universe.
And so they're fundamentally of

844
00:44:57,650 --> 00:44:58,850
interest.
Those of us who are interested

845
00:44:58,850 --> 00:45:01,690
in how the universe began and
whether it be more in one one

846
00:45:01,690 --> 00:45:03,930
universe and what happens inside
a black hole, those are

847
00:45:03,930 --> 00:45:06,250
fascinating questions and people
are fascinated by them.

848
00:45:06,730 --> 00:45:10,250
But we but but that's what we
need a theory of quantum gravity

849
00:45:10,250 --> 00:45:14,450
for and it will change our
perspective of the world.

850
00:45:14,450 --> 00:45:16,690
It might tell us there are more
than 4 dimensions and so it'll

851
00:45:16,690 --> 00:45:19,450
change that picture, but it
won't change how you calculate

852
00:45:20,430 --> 00:45:23,550
balls sliding down a plane, or
the OR the orbits of planets, or

853
00:45:23,950 --> 00:45:30,110
how no boils.
And Lawrence, in any final words

854
00:45:30,110 --> 00:45:31,150
for the podcast?
This does.

855
00:45:31,150 --> 00:45:33,790
I mean first of all, sorry
before you before you say that,

856
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:37,870
the Origins podcast what what
inspired this and what is the

857
00:45:37,870 --> 00:45:39,710
goal moving forward with the
Origins Podcast?

858
00:45:39,830 --> 00:45:41,510
I'm glad there's I'm glad you
asked that.

859
00:45:42,830 --> 00:45:45,150
Well, what inspired it was?
Look, I've tried through my

860
00:45:45,150 --> 00:45:47,870
whole life to point out that
science and culture are closely

861
00:45:47,870 --> 00:45:52,950
tied together and and that the
ideas of science and and that

862
00:45:52,950 --> 00:45:55,710
science and culture are tied
together by all wanting to give

863
00:45:55,710 --> 00:45:58,070
us a a new perspective of our
place in the cosmos.

864
00:45:58,550 --> 00:46:00,910
But they also deal with the
important questions facing the

865
00:46:00,910 --> 00:46:03,270
21st century.
And so I've tried with the

866
00:46:03,270 --> 00:46:06,590
origins podcast is to bring
together science and culture in

867
00:46:06,590 --> 00:46:09,190
ways to talk about those issues
that are important for all of us

868
00:46:09,470 --> 00:46:13,230
as we assess and try and stumble
our way through the 21st

869
00:46:13,230 --> 00:46:16,630
century.
And excite people and and at the

870
00:46:16,670 --> 00:46:19,950
same time excite people and
inspire them to look and ask

871
00:46:19,950 --> 00:46:22,270
questions about the universe and
appreciate the amazing universe

872
00:46:22,270 --> 00:46:26,350
in which we live.
So I use the our podcast and the

873
00:46:26,350 --> 00:46:32,670
fortunate fact that my Rolodex
has been relatively broad and

874
00:46:32,670 --> 00:46:35,350
and and so I can bring a lot of
interesting people from a lot of

875
00:46:35,350 --> 00:46:38,430
different areas including the,
you know, the most well known

876
00:46:38,430 --> 00:46:42,190
scientists but other people
directors actors writers and so

877
00:46:42,190 --> 00:46:45,670
but there it's there's a common
theme which is to bring people

878
00:46:45,670 --> 00:46:50,050
closer to them to have a
discussion and a dialogue not an

879
00:46:50,050 --> 00:46:53,850
interview as people hate when
they when they hate the fact

880
00:46:53,850 --> 00:46:59,290
that I express my views in the
origins podcast and and but it's

881
00:46:59,290 --> 00:47:01,170
a dialogue between two people
interested.

882
00:47:01,210 --> 00:47:05,250
It's like a living room
conversation and not A and not

883
00:47:05,250 --> 00:47:08,770
an interview and I don't
apologize that I've tried more

884
00:47:08,930 --> 00:47:11,450
more.
You know one learns so I've

885
00:47:11,450 --> 00:47:15,850
tried to more carefully not
interrupt when when it's not

886
00:47:15,850 --> 00:47:19,130
necessary which is in you know
in a scientific debate.

887
00:47:19,130 --> 00:47:21,450
It's lots of interruptions back
and forth because you know you

888
00:47:21,450 --> 00:47:22,930
don't want to wait for the whole
thing to get done.

889
00:47:22,930 --> 00:47:27,130
You want to move on but but
anyway so yeah it's been it's

890
00:47:27,130 --> 00:47:32,010
been an amazing experience.
It's exhausting for me because

891
00:47:32,010 --> 00:47:34,850
and and maybe it's exhausting
for you but I I do my homework

892
00:47:34,930 --> 00:47:38,690
not like some people I guess.
So you know when I'm reading

893
00:47:38,810 --> 00:47:42,290
when I'm doing having a dialogue
I try and understand what people

894
00:47:42,290 --> 00:47:44,750
have done.
So that means refreshing myself

895
00:47:44,750 --> 00:47:48,510
by reading six or seven of
Chomsky's last books in

896
00:47:48,510 --> 00:47:52,350
intuition, reading this mammoth
home on free, free will, which I

897
00:47:52,350 --> 00:47:55,430
wouldn't have read otherwise
except it's fascinating for for

898
00:47:55,430 --> 00:47:57,990
Sapolsky.
So I I it requires a lot of

899
00:47:57,990 --> 00:48:00,590
reading and preparation and and
I find that exhausting.

900
00:48:00,590 --> 00:48:03,150
But on the other hand, it's
energizing because I wouldn't

901
00:48:03,150 --> 00:48:05,790
read it otherwise.
Same reason I and when I write.

902
00:48:05,790 --> 00:48:08,990
There's a lot of things I
wouldn't understand or attempt

903
00:48:08,990 --> 00:48:11,350
to understand the level that I
do unless I write about them.

904
00:48:12,090 --> 00:48:14,650
We've been some of you.
So once again it's all for me.

905
00:48:14,690 --> 00:48:16,290
It's me, me, me.
Yes, we're going.

906
00:48:16,410 --> 00:48:17,970
We've been some of the.
Your favorite guests on the

907
00:48:17,970 --> 00:48:20,850
podcast sofa and why?
Oh, I don't think in terms of

908
00:48:20,850 --> 00:48:22,530
favorites, everyone.
I think that's your favorite of

909
00:48:22,530 --> 00:48:23,970
this then.
I mean there have been fun,

910
00:48:23,970 --> 00:48:25,370
really fun ones that surprised
me.

911
00:48:25,370 --> 00:48:28,730
My one of the earliest ones of
Ricky Gervais was fascinating.

912
00:48:28,730 --> 00:48:30,690
People didn't realize he asked.
You know he's interested in

913
00:48:30,690 --> 00:48:31,890
science and that's great
questions.

914
00:48:31,890 --> 00:48:34,610
And of course Stephen Fry is
lovely to listen to.

915
00:48:34,610 --> 00:48:36,970
I could just listen to him talk.
I read that read the phone book,

916
00:48:37,410 --> 00:48:40,490
be fine but and no.
My many dialogues with known but

917
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,760
I like dialogues of people who
also come from a different set

918
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:49,040
of political perspective as I
and and and who you know can

919
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,440
teach me things.
Also dialogues on areas like

920
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,640
Sapolsky's he's not he's
politically on my side but but I

921
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,440
I learned a lot of neurobiology
so but but you know Douglas

922
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:05,880
Murray who certainly certainly
and and and even Jordan Peterson

923
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,560
you know who with whom you know
was it we did one in his podcast

924
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,370
and one of mine and it was
interesting I think it was

925
00:49:12,370 --> 00:49:16,290
interesting I just I I disagree
with a lot of what he says but

926
00:49:16,290 --> 00:49:19,330
the fact that we can have a
dialogue about about key things

927
00:49:19,330 --> 00:49:21,970
were and ask each other
questions I think was really

928
00:49:21,970 --> 00:49:24,970
useful was was.
Jordan able to define God for

929
00:49:24,970 --> 00:49:30,090
you?
No, but I don't.

930
00:49:30,130 --> 00:49:32,530
He has a trouble when you're.
I try not to put on the spot

931
00:49:32,530 --> 00:49:35,090
because if you ask Jordan to
find anything, you will end up

932
00:49:35,090 --> 00:49:39,260
in an invariably long ramble.
And sometimes we caught, I

933
00:49:39,260 --> 00:49:40,380
caught him.
And you know the neat thing

934
00:49:40,380 --> 00:49:43,020
about Jordan though is sometimes
when he rambles and you point

935
00:49:43,020 --> 00:49:45,340
out the logical contradiction or
that it's going number, he'll

936
00:49:45,340 --> 00:49:47,660
say you're right, You know he
realizes it doesn't stop him

937
00:49:47,660 --> 00:49:50,100
from doing it.
But I appreciate that that often

938
00:49:50,100 --> 00:49:53,220
he'll say OK, he'll express a
viewpoint and say, well that's

939
00:49:53,220 --> 00:49:56,100
inconsistent because of XYZ.
Oh, I guess it is.

940
00:49:56,100 --> 00:49:58,100
So I think you gotta give him
credit for that.

941
00:49:59,620 --> 00:50:02,660
The you know even though.
Anyway, sorry, any other.

942
00:50:02,660 --> 00:50:04,940
Are there any guests that are
forthcoming that you're really

943
00:50:04,940 --> 00:50:09,540
excited about.
I'm excited about all my guests

944
00:50:09,540 --> 00:50:12,140
it's like my and seriously it's
like people ask me what book

945
00:50:12,180 --> 00:50:13,620
what's your favorite most
exciting book.

946
00:50:13,620 --> 00:50:16,620
Well it's the one I just wrote
because I'm excited about it but

947
00:50:16,940 --> 00:50:20,260
but you know I love the the
podcast with Sapolsky.

948
00:50:20,580 --> 00:50:24,420
I had a great ones coming up
with Peter Singer philosopher

949
00:50:25,340 --> 00:50:28,580
who's in fact who's who's
impacted on my own life in many

950
00:50:28,580 --> 00:50:31,180
ways.
I'm a vegetarian now and not not

951
00:50:31,180 --> 00:50:40,790
in small part because of Peter
Singer and I I have a

952
00:50:40,790 --> 00:50:45,550
fascinating experience with
Scott Aronson who's a computer

953
00:50:45,550 --> 00:50:51,870
scientist talking about AI and
and computational complexity and

954
00:50:51,870 --> 00:50:56,510
that sort of thing.
And so then I've got you know

955
00:50:57,070 --> 00:50:59,860
I've got some hopes.
I was there's some people I

956
00:50:59,860 --> 00:51:01,860
thought we'd become we'd be
doing it may not.

957
00:51:01,860 --> 00:51:04,620
I was hoping that I looked like
I was going to have a podcast

958
00:51:04,620 --> 00:51:06,740
with Garrison Keillor who you
may not know if you're not

959
00:51:06,740 --> 00:51:11,420
American and was wonderful.
But but like most things like

960
00:51:11,420 --> 00:51:15,180
the books are right or the OR
the scientific work I do the

961
00:51:15,180 --> 00:51:18,180
most exciting stuff is the stuff
I don't know is going to happen

962
00:51:18,220 --> 00:51:21,060
yet.
So I can tell you that, you

963
00:51:21,060 --> 00:51:27,990
know, as I say, Sapolski singer
Aronson are ones that I'm

964
00:51:27,990 --> 00:51:34,190
excited about that are coming up
and as well as another dialogue

965
00:51:34,190 --> 00:51:38,510
I did with Richard Dawkins.
But I think I.

966
00:51:38,590 --> 00:51:41,870
Have to ask you about Dawkins is
because I mean you guys have

967
00:51:41,870 --> 00:51:44,590
done so much work together.
What's it like going around the

968
00:51:44,590 --> 00:51:48,670
world with this guy and really
expressing your thoughts and?

969
00:51:49,110 --> 00:51:50,470
Intuitions about the universe
together.

970
00:51:50,470 --> 00:51:52,590
I mean completely different
fields coming together.

971
00:51:52,590 --> 00:51:54,150
I mean, you think of physics and
biology.

972
00:51:54,270 --> 00:51:59,230
What's that like?
Well, I like to think well, I

973
00:51:59,230 --> 00:52:02,150
always respected Richard, but I
like to think his respect for me

974
00:52:02,150 --> 00:52:06,710
is increased overtime.
It's, you know, it's it's it's

975
00:52:06,710 --> 00:52:09,750
new insights.
I mean it's sharing a worldview,

976
00:52:10,990 --> 00:52:13,950
but we're very different people
and it's all it's for me, it's

977
00:52:13,950 --> 00:52:17,310
fun to watch sometimes to watch
Richard's being very different

978
00:52:17,310 --> 00:52:20,050
than me and I think it's a nice
thing for people to see that

979
00:52:20,050 --> 00:52:23,090
difference in personality and
character as well as fields.

980
00:52:23,770 --> 00:52:27,050
But we obviously complement each
other I think and each time

981
00:52:27,210 --> 00:52:29,690
what's fun is, is the and we
challenge.

982
00:52:29,690 --> 00:52:33,770
We just did something in in
Birmingham last week, the first

983
00:52:33,770 --> 00:52:37,690
time Richard ever interviewed me
officially for his podcast.

984
00:52:39,730 --> 00:52:42,090
To do new things to come up with
new things to not make it the

985
00:52:42,090 --> 00:52:44,770
same discussion and what I'm and
what Richard's always been

986
00:52:44,770 --> 00:52:46,690
surprised about.
And I haven't been as surprised

987
00:52:47,060 --> 00:52:48,700
is at the end of it goes, wow,
that was neat.

988
00:52:48,700 --> 00:52:51,380
That was maybe the best is that
we can talk about new things.

989
00:52:51,380 --> 00:52:58,260
There's a lot to talk about and
I enjoy, I enjoy and I'm honored

990
00:52:58,260 --> 00:53:01,950
by the camaraderie that we have.
Do you ever get afraid of

991
00:53:01,950 --> 00:53:05,550
falling into that trap that way?
People often praise Richard of

992
00:53:05,550 --> 00:53:09,630
being this amazing evolutionary
biologist, but really dislike

993
00:53:09,630 --> 00:53:11,270
the fact that he's gone down the
atheist route.

994
00:53:11,270 --> 00:53:14,150
Do you ever feel writing about
it at least that you might get

995
00:53:14,150 --> 00:53:15,990
falling?
Well, when I first, when I first

996
00:53:15,990 --> 00:53:18,030
attacked, when I first
interacted with Richard, it was

997
00:53:18,030 --> 00:53:23,030
that rad basically said, look
what you know, why are you doing

998
00:53:23,030 --> 00:53:24,150
this?
Because you know you're just

999
00:53:24,150 --> 00:53:27,990
alienating people and in some
sense and and we had that in the

1000
00:53:27,990 --> 00:53:32,050
end believers I think the IT
almost begins the question the

1001
00:53:32,050 --> 00:53:35,850
question you know are you trying
to what's your what's your goal

1002
00:53:35,850 --> 00:53:38,330
are you trying to get people to
stop believing in God or or

1003
00:53:38,330 --> 00:53:42,970
understand the universe and and
and Richard was fell more on the

1004
00:53:42,970 --> 00:53:45,970
side of wanting to get people to
stop believing God because

1005
00:53:46,330 --> 00:53:49,770
because he used it as as I do
often impediment to that whereas

1006
00:53:49,770 --> 00:53:52,410
my interest is really just
getting people excited about the

1007
00:53:52,410 --> 00:53:54,050
real universe without all the
nonsense.

1008
00:53:54,410 --> 00:53:57,370
So we come at it slightly
differently, but I think it

1009
00:53:57,370 --> 00:54:02,130
takes 1000 Points of Light and I
think Richard inspires people

1010
00:54:02,170 --> 00:54:05,650
with his approach that I don't
and maybe I inspire some people

1011
00:54:05,650 --> 00:54:06,890
with my approach that Richard
doesn't.

1012
00:54:06,890 --> 00:54:11,690
So it takes all types, I mean.
It's such a pleasure to chat to

1013
00:54:11,690 --> 00:54:13,210
you.
Any final is from your side

1014
00:54:13,210 --> 00:54:14,530
anything you wanna be left
unsaid.

1015
00:54:14,530 --> 00:54:16,450
And by the way, do you have a
question for Avi Loeb tomorrow?

1016
00:54:19,170 --> 00:54:20,850
I know Avi.
I know, Avi.

1017
00:54:23,460 --> 00:54:24,900
No, I have no questions for
lobby Loeb.

1018
00:54:24,900 --> 00:54:26,980
I don't think there's anything
right now worth questioning.

1019
00:54:28,780 --> 00:54:30,700
At least with the stuff he's
gonna talk about.

1020
00:54:30,980 --> 00:54:33,460
Maybe other stuff.
All this alien stuff.

1021
00:54:33,460 --> 00:54:37,620
It's yeah, a lot Much Ado.
But nothing much you do with

1022
00:54:37,620 --> 00:54:39,780
very little.
But you know it's been good for

1023
00:54:39,780 --> 00:54:43,220
him.
So good I'm concerned at all

1024
00:54:43,220 --> 00:54:47,060
about.
This There's a rise in UAP talk.

1025
00:54:48,550 --> 00:54:49,830
What was that?
Are you concerned?

1026
00:54:49,830 --> 00:54:51,510
At all about this rise in UAP
talk.

1027
00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:54,110
As of later, that's, you know,
it's been a bear before.

1028
00:54:54,110 --> 00:55:02,030
It'll be here again, you know, I
mean, the only concern I have is

1029
00:55:02,030 --> 00:55:05,790
it is it because it's amplified
by the nonsense of the Internet.

1030
00:55:06,470 --> 00:55:09,630
They used to at least be a few
people and shouting and other

1031
00:55:09,630 --> 00:55:11,510
people believing maybe a lot of
people.

1032
00:55:11,670 --> 00:55:16,070
But now there's this, you know,
vocal and and and really kind of

1033
00:55:16,070 --> 00:55:21,860
aggressive claims and and
unfortunately then institutions,

1034
00:55:21,860 --> 00:55:24,900
you know respond like, you know
the government says saying,

1035
00:55:25,020 --> 00:55:28,220
well, you know when NASA came
out with their with their

1036
00:55:28,420 --> 00:55:31,220
analysis saying there's no
evidence but then but you know,

1037
00:55:31,220 --> 00:55:35,230
it's just great.
But they still kind of kowtow a

1038
00:55:35,230 --> 00:55:38,070
little bit too much to saying,
you know, well you know, we're

1039
00:55:38,070 --> 00:55:40,550
investigating all the stuff
that's been done and well, it's

1040
00:55:40,550 --> 00:55:41,990
true.
But the idea they're trying to

1041
00:55:42,350 --> 00:55:44,350
virtue signal in their own way.
Yeah.

1042
00:55:44,350 --> 00:55:46,310
So I, you know, I would don't
like virtue signaling.

1043
00:55:46,310 --> 00:55:48,390
I've come to hate it.
Yes.

1044
00:55:49,790 --> 00:55:51,670
And I didn't even know what it
was.

1045
00:55:51,670 --> 00:55:54,350
Tilly and McEwen used the word
once for me.

1046
00:55:54,390 --> 00:55:55,790
I didn't never heard it.
Yeah.

1047
00:55:55,790 --> 00:55:57,710
It's almost like.
A government has to respond.

1048
00:55:57,710 --> 00:55:59,710
I mean if they, if they do
something about it, of course

1049
00:55:59,710 --> 00:56:02,610
they have to respond.
They have to placate people at

1050
00:56:02,610 --> 00:56:04,610
some level.
You can't just say, you know,

1051
00:56:05,130 --> 00:56:07,770
but but they did respond, NASA
did respond.

1052
00:56:07,770 --> 00:56:09,730
And I think and you know, it
doesn't need to say anything

1053
00:56:09,730 --> 00:56:11,570
else.
But yeah, I guess the only thing

1054
00:56:11,570 --> 00:56:13,810
is the viciousness and
aggressiveness.

1055
00:56:13,810 --> 00:56:15,890
But other than that, they'll
always be nonsense.

1056
00:56:15,890 --> 00:56:17,850
They'll always be.
It's because of everyone.

1057
00:56:18,210 --> 00:56:21,250
We all are, Fox, Muldar.
We all want to believe.

1058
00:56:22,210 --> 00:56:24,850
And it's science that helps us
get around the fact that we want

1059
00:56:24,850 --> 00:56:27,370
to believe.
And sometimes science tells us

1060
00:56:27,370 --> 00:56:29,130
we, you know, we know we want to
believe.

1061
00:56:29,130 --> 00:56:33,200
But sorry, it's not there.
And so first, recognizing you

1062
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:37,520
want to believe is an important
thing And and I and I don't like

1063
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:41,440
to play into that goal.
But on the other hand I do in

1064
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:44,200
the sense that you know I'm
trying to play into people's one

1065
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:47,440
of the greatest ways to learn in
science is to confront your own

1066
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:49,640
misconceptions.
So bringing out those

1067
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:52,440
misconceptions in an exciting
way allows you to try and

1068
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:54,160
confront them.
And you know even the physics,

1069
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:56,600
Star Trek and things like that
was confronting people's

1070
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:58,560
misconceptions.
I'm not sure if I've ever.

1071
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:00,880
Heard you talk about this, but
outside of physics, what is your

1072
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,460
favorite scientific field?
Outside.

1073
00:57:03,580 --> 00:57:05,060
Outside of physics?
My what?

1074
00:57:05,140 --> 00:57:06,980
Outside of physics, what your
favorite field?

1075
00:57:06,980 --> 00:57:10,740
Within science, except for
physics, I don't have favorites.

1076
00:57:10,740 --> 00:57:12,180
I told you, that's apples and
oranges.

1077
00:57:12,180 --> 00:57:15,780
I don't think in favorites.
Obviously neuroscience is a

1078
00:57:15,780 --> 00:57:19,500
fascinating area, but so is
genetics, and I wish I wish I

1079
00:57:19,500 --> 00:57:22,540
knew more about it.
I've learned a lot in my time.

1080
00:57:23,100 --> 00:57:26,060
But you know when I was going to
school and my mother wanted me

1081
00:57:26,060 --> 00:57:30,320
to be a doctor?
Desperately, I dropped biology.

1082
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:32,680
Because when I was going to
school in the, that would have

1083
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:39,160
been their early 60s.
Maybe biology was dissecting

1084
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:41,000
frogs and stuff.
It wasn't interesting.

1085
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:44,840
I mean, DNA, the genetic code
really hadn't had just been

1086
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,480
discovered, but it hadn't
filtered its way down, at least

1087
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:49,400
in my experience, into into high
school.

1088
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:54,700
And it's now such a fascinating
area that I wish I, well, I like

1089
00:57:54,700 --> 00:57:56,780
to learn more about it, No, but
I'm fascinated by it all.

1090
00:57:56,780 --> 00:58:00,260
I don't think everything about
the universe fascinates me.

1091
00:58:00,420 --> 00:58:04,620
And as I like to say, every day
I wake up and I'm surprised.

1092
00:58:04,620 --> 00:58:07,780
If I'm not surprised, I.
Like that How?

1093
00:58:07,820 --> 00:58:10,500
How could the average listener
of this podcast to be a true

1094
00:58:10,500 --> 00:58:15,740
scientist?
Everyone is just channel your

1095
00:58:15,740 --> 00:58:18,900
inner child, you know.
Ask questions.

1096
00:58:19,420 --> 00:58:21,460
Be willing to change your mind
when you're wrong.

1097
00:58:21,940 --> 00:58:27,670
Test your ideas and have fun.
Ask questions that excite you

1098
00:58:28,190 --> 00:58:30,030
and try and under and try and
explore.

1099
00:58:30,350 --> 00:58:32,670
Try and boldly go where no one
has gone before.

1100
00:58:33,470 --> 00:58:35,750
I I often hate when someone asks
me this but when is the last

1101
00:58:35,750 --> 00:58:37,110
time you changed your mind,
Lawrence?

1102
00:58:41,990 --> 00:58:43,950
Well, I changed my mind earlier.
I wasn't gonna.

1103
00:58:44,030 --> 00:58:45,830
I I thought I was too busy to do
this.

1104
00:58:45,870 --> 00:58:49,350
And there you go.
And.

1105
00:58:50,370 --> 00:58:53,890
And I appreciate that so much.
I mean it's been I like to think

1106
00:58:53,890 --> 00:58:56,570
I changed my mind I I do I at
the older I get they I think the

1107
00:58:56,570 --> 00:58:59,810
more I realize that well it's
easy to feel you know everything

1108
00:58:59,810 --> 00:59:02,770
when you're younger I feel from.
Watching I feel from listening.

1109
00:59:03,490 --> 00:59:07,130
I actually just gave a lecture
in England about changing minds

1110
00:59:07,130 --> 00:59:10,290
about 3 examples of the way the
scientific community change one

1111
00:59:10,290 --> 00:59:12,610
involved me.
I mean I, you know when we first

1112
00:59:12,610 --> 00:59:15,770
proposed in empty space that
energy, it was, you know, I

1113
00:59:15,770 --> 00:59:19,070
wasn't a crazy idea.
I thought it was crazy before it

1114
00:59:19,070 --> 00:59:22,750
appeared to be true.
So I and then it is apparently

1115
00:59:22,750 --> 00:59:26,030
and it's it's crazy.
So I've changed my mind and I've

1116
00:59:26,030 --> 00:59:27,910
helped in that sense change
other people's mind.

1117
00:59:27,910 --> 00:59:31,550
Not as much as the observers who
then win in one Nobel Prize for

1118
00:59:31,590 --> 00:59:36,830
for what they did.
But but anyway, it's I hope I

1119
00:59:36,830 --> 00:59:40,430
changed my mind again and I and
and in fact I will be happy to

1120
00:59:40,430 --> 00:59:41,670
have another conversation with
you.

1121
00:59:41,830 --> 00:59:45,840
That's another maybe change in
my mind well.

1122
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:48,720
I I'm so grateful for that I
mean it's it's been such a

1123
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:52,200
pleasure and a privilege and I I
look forward to your work

1124
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,800
throughout the future and I mean
good luck the podcast is

1125
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,520
absolutely amazing.
I'm I'm a fan of all the guests

1126
00:59:57,560 --> 00:59:59,640
and yourself and I appreciate
all your work throughout that

1127
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:00,720
well.
Thank you.

1128
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:02,320
Well, this was lovely.
I really enjoyed it.

1129
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:03,760
I really did.
And keep up the good work

1130
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,240
yourself.
And yeah, and yeah, I'm sorry I

1131
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:09,120
have to rush off because of my
travels, but no problem.

1132
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:11,240
Thank you so much.
Take care, right?

1133
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:12,680
Have a great, have a great
flight.

1134
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:14,520
Thanks.
OK, take care.

1135
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:14,920
Bye, bye.