Karl Friston: How does Death Shape Life? Mortal Computation & the Field of Diverse Intelligence

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How are you doing, Carl?
Thanks for joining me one more

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time.
My pleasure.

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How's everything on your end?
Very busy pre Christmas rush,

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yeah.
I can imagine I'm so sorry that

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it fell into this this time of
the year, but I've been looking

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forward to this chat for quite
some time.

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So have I.
Thanks Scott.

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I mean you you actually got me
on a bit of a tangent.

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When I when we spoke the last
time, you mentioned the inner

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screen hypothesis, you spoke
about Chris Fields, Mark Levin,

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sorry, Mike Levin, Mark Solms,
all the names, all these people

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that you're working with, not
directly but very indirectly,

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but a lot, a lot of you are
working along similar projects.

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And it really took me in a bit
of a rabbit hall.

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I started, I started going deep
into it.

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I got Mike back into the show.
I got Mark back into the show.

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So you're partly responsible for
me having mini round twos and I

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think at this point it's only
fitting that we have our round

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two.
OK, remember I I am the amateur

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here, so, so I'll be asking you
what Mark or Mike or Chris said.

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Yeah.
So look, first of all, I was

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looking at your publications for
2023.

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You've published close to 100
papers this year.

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And my my first question to you
is, is this your average output

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right here?
Because if so, it's absolutely

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incredible.
Yeah, 100 sounds quite a lot I

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find myself.
First of all, being a co-author

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on a paper doesn't mean to say
that I have written the paper.

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So as you get older you acquire
more academic colleagues, more

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academic children, and to
endorse their work and

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participate in your their
pursuits you're often invited to

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be a co-author.
So my job is much more like an

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English teacher, people's
papers, and I do that at the

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weekend and I do about one or
two per weekend, but there's,

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you know, that that includes
revisions.

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So I would imagine about 50 a
year would be the average, you

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know, if I'd sort of do one new
draft and one revision every

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weekend, that's about how you
know.

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How do you feel that?
Does it impact your mental

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health at all?
Carl does How do you manage

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this?
Because that output, it's crazy.

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It's not just quantity from from
my side at least it's quality.

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This is the type of work when I
sit and read.

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I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm in awe.
Right.

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Well that's that's very gracious
of you to say that but it's

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probably more a reflection of
the academic circles, you know

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in which light circulate you
know.

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So the quality of the of the
material probably speaks to the

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interesting questions that that
my colleagues and students and

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and mentors, although there
aren't many of them left now as

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you as you get past 60.
So.

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So I think that's, you know, the
quality is probably just a

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reflection of the fact that that
most of my colleagues ask very

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interesting questions.
And of course when they ask an

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interesting question, it is an
interesting read, even if there

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isn't an answer at hand.
That's certainly one thing.

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In terms of the hard work, I can
assure you there are people who

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work much harder than I do in
terms of marking students essays

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as lecturers or indeed just, you
know, as teachers of younger

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people, you know.
So in that respect, as an

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academic professor, you know, I
I don't work as many people do

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work.
In fact, I try to avoid too much

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administration and sort of
formal teaching so that I can

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create a bit of space just for
the my own academic

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machinations.
Well as I said the first time we

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spoke I I cited you several
times in my own dissertation.

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So keep up the great work many,
many of us look up to it.

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We aspire to do something
similar, obviously not as great.

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I don't think that's possible
from my side at least not I

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can't speak for everyone else
but the the work you you're

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doing is so fascinating and when
I spoke to Mark, Mike, all the

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others, they also have the same
element of respect for your

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work.
And I think it's it's it's

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fitting that this group, these
group of thinkers that you all

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are coming from this with
various different backgrounds

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but and also from various
different fields which is quite

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fascinating to see how you guys
converge and diverge towards the

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end of this conversation.
I have a series where I called

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it Convergence and Divergent and
I've got a list of names for a

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lot of people you've worked with
and perhaps disagree or agree on

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several topics that I'm going to
ask you about.

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But to start this conversation,
Mike asked me to ask Mark.

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So Mike Levin asked me to ask
Mark Solms what is the meaning

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of life?
And Mark, I mean he he, he did a

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great job at asking answering
this question.

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But I think I want to start this
question with, with that from

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your side, what is the meaning
of life, Carl?

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Because my next question, just
just to give you a preference,

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my next question is going to be
how does death shape life?

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Excellent question.
So the meaning of life, I think

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probably the most the richest
answer.

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Common sensical answer would we
come from Jakub?

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How is formulation of the free
energy principle which is self

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evidencing?
So as soon as you ask a question

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what is the meaning of life?
I am searching for a teleology

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or teleonomy, a meaning that has
a certain kind of function.

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I should confess that the free
energy principle in and of

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itself is not predicated on any
technological explanation.

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It actually is what I've done
and it's strange inversions that

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you know.
It starts off with a definition

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of life and then asks what kind
of dynamics or processes must

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this definition entail.
And then you put a a meaning or

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a teleology on top of that.
It looks as if it is doing this

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and that.
But if you accept the licensed

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teleology, then I think the
simplest answer is to self

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evidence.
Which would mean that any

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particle or person will behave
in a way that looks as if she is

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gathering evidence for her own
world, models of her lived or at

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least sensed world.
And that could be at every level

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from the, you know, from the
body through to the sort of

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culture in which that particular
person is immersed.

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So mathematically, that just
means that everything is in the

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service of maximising the
evidence for your model of the

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world.
And that simply means behaving

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in a way that will solicit those
data, those those sensory

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impressions from the world that
are the most likely under your

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model, and adjusting your model
to render those inputs the most

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likely.
And there's a beautiful circular

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causality there, Because if
you're in charge actively of

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gathering, garnering, soliciting
certain data, certain content

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through your eyes, ears, or even
your gut feelings, then there's

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a delicate balance between
soliciting the data that's going

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to be confirmatory for your
model.

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Which is a necessary aspect of
the free energy principle,

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because if you start to search
out those sensations and that

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are not consistent with with
your model of the world, you'll

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find yourself dissipated very,
very cold, very, very lonely,

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very, very hot, exploding,
burning all those surprising

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states of being.
So you have to select those data

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in the process of self
evidencing sensory data.

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There's, you know, create author
your own sensorium in a way that

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nothing is surprising and yet at
the same time, you need to

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sample informative information.
You need to respond to epistemic

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affordances so that your model
is has got the right kind of

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grip on the world.
In you know that you are trying

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to you're trying to model.
So the meaning of life is self

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evidencing, gathering evidence
for your models of the limited

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world.
And well, I mean, it's a

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beautiful answer.
And how does that entail death?

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I mean, how does death come into
this picture?

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How does life get shaped by the
concept of death?

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Right.
That is a wonderful question,

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specifically in relation to a
paper.

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One of those papers that I had
to act as an English teacher to

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a beautiful paper written by a
young colleague of mine called

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Alexander and Alex, and it was
entitled, or certainly its focus

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was on something called mortal
computation.

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Now, I had always read Mortal
computation in a in a particular

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way, in in a computer science
sense, that there is a

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distinction between software
that can be run on any machine,

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any Turing machine or any Van
Newman architecture.

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And because it can be run on any
infrastructure or hardware, it

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is in a sense immortal.
You know, you can keep that, and

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you can run it again and again
and again eternally, and it will

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always run on different
hardwares, even if that hardware

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is itself mortal.
So that would how I used to

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understand the notion of mortal
computation as opposed to

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immortal computation where the
software is immortal because it

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can be run on different
hardware.

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But the there's another
interpretation which Alex

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brought to the table, which I'm
sure he's not the first, but

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certainly the first time I'd
read it expressed so eloquently

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that there is a certain pressure
afforded things that are mortal

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or mortal computation defined in
terms of information processing.

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I would say self evidencing in a
situated embodied context.

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So the physical infrastructure
of the of the body, for example,

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becomes part of self evidencing,
very closely related to notions

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of the good regulator theorem
that you know.

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Any agent or person who is able
to regulate or control their

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environment just is a model of
that environment or certainly

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has to have the same degrees of
freedom as all the controllable

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aspects of that environment.
Sounds a nice if you like

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perspective or take on on mortal
computation that the hardware

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matters, the body matters, the
infrastructure matters, the

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brain the Physiology, the
anatomy and the wiring actually

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matters.
And in that wiring, in that

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structure, in that composition,
in say those multi cellular

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architectures that my gloves
playing with and theorising

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about.
The very structure in and of

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itself is the computation.
It is the knowledge.

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Very much in the sense that from
an evolutionary perspective, my

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body is the accumulation of
evidence by natural selection as

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to what is the best kind of
phenotype that is apartment to

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survive in this particular eco
niche.

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So that would be mortal
computation.

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But the perspective I wanted to
get to was that it also implies

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that you're going to die.
So if you are mortal and you're

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a mortal computer, and I would
say that everything, well, well,

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specifically biotic things,
natural things are mortal

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computers and you have to die.
That's puts a certain pressure

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on the self, evidencing in the
sense that if you don't do

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yourself evidencing properly.
So this is getting very

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technological.
So I wouldn't say this is if I

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was a physicist, but I'm not a
physicist here so we can wax

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lyrical.
If I am, if I have the potential

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to die, to cease to dissipate,
to decay, all those things which

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signify a failure of self
evidencing so that my generative

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model is no longer my world
model, is no longer fit for

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purpose and explaining my
sensory coupling to the

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environment or to the eco niche.
Then I have to continually self

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evidence to update my generative
model.

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So I show that adapt adaptivity,
a responsiveness, a sensitivity

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to my my environment.
That but of course is the

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essence of self evidence and
it's a process you know you you

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you you are always in the game
of updating, increasing the

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marginal likelihood of of all
the data under under your model.

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So in the absence of that
pressure then you would not get

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the the the phenomenology of
learning, of responding, of of

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adapting.
You can even take that to its

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limit to them in there are
arguments that it is from an

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evolutionary perspective
necessary to die.

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So this gets a little bit
technical in the following sense

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that as I enter the world I have
very little experience and

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therefore as a biologists say,
little opportunity to engage

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experience dependent plasticity
in the way that I why my brain

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and understand how my world
works, what parts of my world I

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can control, You know, what
parts of the world resemble

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things like me, for example
mother and the like.

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So I have to build and learn
very, very quickly a world model

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that requires a certain
flexibility in terms of

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entertaining different
hypotheses about the way that

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the world could work.
So I again, as a biologist, this

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would look like a high degree of
neuroplastic potential.

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I'm very impressionable
mathematically.

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Statistically, that would that
would translate into my prior

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beliefs about the structure and
the parameters of my world model

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are uninformative.
It gives me the latitude now to

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do my belief updating or my
learning in a way that I can

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shrink my uncertainty and
develop more much more precise

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priors.
So as I come into the world and

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I am mortal, I come in with very
imprecise pride beliefs about

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the the nature of my lived
world.

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And as I get older, if I
necessarily shrink that

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00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,160
uncertainty and form very, very
precise beliefs.

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So anecdotally, I become stuck
in my ways.

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I become a grumpy old man,
personally wise and old, but

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inflexible because my precision
necessarily is shrunk.

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This is part of self evidencing
as I converge upon my model of

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00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:30,520
my life in my world, making it
increasingly understandable,

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00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,520
predictable, so that there's,
you know, a greater synchrony

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00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,760
between what's going on inside
my head and what's going on out

242
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,840
there.
And you can see that there's a

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00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:44,720
price to be paid as you get
older that you can't respond to

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a change in the world.
So if the environment is

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changing in any way, then at
some point it will become Bayes

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00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,640
optimal for me to give up my
model and start again, IE have

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children.
Simply because of this process,

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00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:09,160
the separation of temporal
scales that is implicit in a

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00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,920
volatile or itinerant or
capricious environment.

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00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,319
And you may ask, well, does the
environment have to change that

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00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:24,880
on one-on-one level, The very
fact that we actually design and

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create our environment, you
know, from global warming to to

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00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,640
producing delightful podcasts of
the sort of the RIG engine.

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00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,160
Now we are always actively in
the game on changing our

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environment to every time scale.
So yes, as soon as you have an

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ensemble of things like you and
me, that constitutes certainly

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the cultural environment or the
pro social environment or the

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00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:50,400
information environment, then it
has to change.

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And if it has to change, there
has to be this, this, this.

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Well, one way of accommodating
that is to have this renewal of

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00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:09,240
the priors in a way that a
mathematician would understand

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00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:13,040
in terms of base octal.
Forgetting you see this

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00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,640
everywhere.
If you are a behavioural

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psychologist or a reinforcement
learning person, you will know

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this as temporal discounting
under the Bell not tonality

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00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:27,520
principle, for example.
So wherever you look there is a

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certain built into any kind of
world modelling or the kinds of

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models of people using
reinforcement learning.

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00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:40,920
There is this acknowledgement
that that evidence at hand in

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the recent past, or indeed the
recent future, is more precise

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00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:50,240
and more pertinent to yourself.
Evidencing stuff that happened a

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00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,240
long time ago is going to be
very, very less important

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00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:55,840
because things might have
changed.

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00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,600
So the way that you deal with
that in terms of Bayesian belief

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updating, or the way that active
inference under the free energy

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00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,960
principle would handle this,
would be to to actually estimate

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00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:12,360
the volatility and forget in an
optimal way.

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00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,520
So you can look at evolution and
you can look at sort of the

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00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:23,240
recurrence of different
generations and the implicit

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00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,360
mortality of any given one
phenotype within a generation as

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00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:32,240
exactly this kind of optimal
Bayesian forgetting that is

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00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:38,240
baked into and whose time
constants will be determined by

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00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,200
the the rate at which the world
changes.

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00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,840
So on that argument, the things
that we that are learnable in

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00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:51,760
our world basically change on a
generational time scale, sort of

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00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,440
revolutions, you know,
industrial ranges through to

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00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,480
information ages through to ages
of intelligent whatever,

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00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,040
whatever sort of, you know, the
big picture, the climate for

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00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,120
example.
So there's a certain time scale

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00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:08,400
at which the, you know, the
world changes our environment.

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00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,600
Changes and that we change that
environment, that we'll probably

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00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,760
put an upper bound on the
duration of any given generative

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00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,320
model before it has to forget
and then start again.

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00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,520
You know, you could imagine
certain artifacts that that

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00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:31,000
gracefully forgot and that we're
that didn't actually have to

296
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,000
die.
But in a sense, if I lose the

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00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:42,480
structures that embody the
knowledge and the the ability of

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00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,120
my generative model to
underwrite my sense making and

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00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:49,360
decision making, If I just lose
those, say I had a

300
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:51,880
neurodegenerative disorder, say
I've had Alzheimer's disease.

301
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:57,200
In a sense that's a certain kind
of mortality, you know, personal

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00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,400
mortality.
So it may not entail physical

303
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,840
death, but certainly it has
gone, it has dissipated, it is

304
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,800
lost to time.
So there's, you know, there can

305
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,880
be mortality at many, many
different levels.

306
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:13,320
I'll give you one example, which
always, always makes me smile.

307
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:14,080
Is it?
Yeah.

308
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,320
But any.
Well, I'm sure Mike Nevins could

309
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:20,000
probably give me loads of lovely
examples about different sort of

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00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:21,760
skin cells and liver cells and
the like.

311
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:27,240
But in the brain, your your,
your, your nerve cells,

312
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,720
certainly your synapses are
dying all the time and they're

313
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,120
being rejuvenated.
So it's almost like there's a

314
00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:36,400
sort of continuous flux of
synaptic connections.

315
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,280
They are the plugs and sockets
that enable nerve cells to talk

316
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,000
to each other.
So their time scale is very,

317
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,520
very fast.
You know, they may only hang

318
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,280
around synapses for a few
minutes or a few, you know, say

319
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,160
a few days at most cells, you
know, days to weeks.

320
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,240
You know, I think there's a mean
that, you know that you know all

321
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,840
of my cells are going to replace
themselves, you know, on a

322
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,000
certain cycle, you know, weeks
to months.

323
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,560
So in that sense, these are all
examples of mortal computation.

324
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:12,560
And at every level and every
time scale you see this this

325
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,920
kind of tendency where you know
where there is a renewal like

326
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:23,200
process that that is probably
mandated by a changing world and

327
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,400
of course the renewal process
creates that changing world at

328
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,000
the temporal scale above.
So it's a long winded answer to

329
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,360
a great question.
Now look, your your answers are

330
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:36,600
always fascinating, Col.
There's there's a point, I

331
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,000
think, in the article you're
talking about.

332
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,440
I'm just going to Scroll down
quickly on my notes.

333
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,720
You mentioned real.
You guys mentioned real world

334
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,400
examples of AMC's mortal
computers.

335
00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:51,120
You spoke about a homeostat
electrochemical threads

336
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,120
xenobots, which is part of Mike
Levin's work Organoids or Fungal

337
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:57,960
systems.
So my question to you is how are

338
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,560
these real world examples of MCS
mortal computers?

339
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:09,200
And why is it not that let's say
a star, a galactic system or the

340
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:14,040
way star sort of is born, goes
through its life and then dies?

341
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,320
Why is that not part of this
mortal computation?

342
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,240
If maybe it is, I'm not sure.
Maybe it's just not one of your

343
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,800
real world examples mentioned.
No.

344
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,240
Well, no.
It's another great question

345
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,800
there.
And I was just thinking, what's

346
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,720
the right answer?
You know, I think you, you, you,

347
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:36,880
you could in principle talk
about the movement of the

348
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,960
heavenly bodies in terms of
mortal computation, in the sense

349
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:46,840
that it is not eternal.
And indeed, so large physics

350
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,640
deals, you know, deals little
issues in terms of The Big Bang

351
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,400
and what what's going to happen
to the universe and billion

352
00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:01,680
millennia and millennia.
So you could read, I think any

353
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,960
physically instantiated process
or physically realised process

354
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,960
in terms of mortal computation,
that that's really the point of

355
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,520
mortal computation.
It's in the physics.

356
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:15,280
It's in the way that it is
instantiated and realised in in

357
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:20,200
in in a physical sense.
Having said that, what you're

358
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,080
really asking is, well, why
don't we ascribe to the moon

359
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,560
cognitive abilities and and the
kind of biotic mortality that

360
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,320
you that we're much more
familiar with.

361
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:36,080
And I I think there is, at least
from a classical perspective, a

362
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:46,760
principled answer to that and it
does rest upon the notion of on

363
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,360
different scales.
So we're talking before about,

364
00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:54,520
you know, synapses having a
different kind of mortality in

365
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,840
terms of the time constants from
our cells, from our brains, from

366
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,600
our bodies, from our families,
from our species and so on.

367
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,520
I think you can apply that
notion to everything.

368
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,200
So what does that mean?
Well, it means that there will

369
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:17,560
be a spectrum of scales both in
I hesitate to say space because

370
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:24,080
space is a constant, but
certainly the size and time And

371
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,880
the question now is where would
you normally expect to find

372
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:33,320
biotic kind of self evidencing
or self organization, you know,

373
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:39,080
basal cognition that Mike might
have articulated or described.

374
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,280
And I I think there are sort of
basic arguments would say that

375
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,880
there is a Goldilocks regime and
that there is a bright line

376
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:53,200
between things that show this
kind of self evidencing and

377
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,160
things that can't show this kind
where this kind is a biological

378
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,920
kind of of intelligence or sort
of basal cognition.

379
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:07,920
And that would be, well, let's
just start.

380
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,160
You know what determines the the
differences between one scale

381
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,720
and the next.
And one very simple answer.

382
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,720
And I repeat, this is from a
classical perspective.

383
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,960
So this is from the perspective
not of quantum information

384
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,880
theory, but from the perspective
of random dynamical systems that

385
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,520
underwrite thermodynamics.
You can get to quantum mechanics

386
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,800
from the notion of random
fluctuation, random

387
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,200
fluctuations, and writing down
things like launchment

388
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,320
equations.
So the idea here is that the

389
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:45,840
universe is just an expression
of changing states where there's

390
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,000
a separation of time scales into
things, states that change

391
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,960
slowly and things that change
very very quickly.

392
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,720
And then you can say that the
the flow or the dynamics on the

393
00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,760
states of the universe are can
be split into slow stuff which

394
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,880
is a function of the state and
faster which we call random

395
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,160
fluctuations or you know,
stochasticity saying the

396
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:08,600
stochastic differential
equation.

397
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:15,680
Now here's here's the big move.
If that's true, that means as

398
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:21,320
you move from the very, very
small to the bigger in the way

399
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,800
that you move, certainly under
the the Markov boundary or

400
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,160
blanket partition that you know
that's part of the free energy

401
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,960
principle.
You are going to have to average

402
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,760
many, many states together,
specifically the states that

403
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,960
surround or entail any given
particle or artifact or anything

404
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,400
that can be differentiated from
its environment.

405
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,720
In that averaging you are
averaging away the random

406
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,280
fluctuations.
So as you move through the

407
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:57,320
microscopic well the the quantum
to the microscopic, to the

408
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,640
mesoscopic, to the macroscopic
right through to the

409
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:05,600
cosmological scale, you have a
progressive reduction in the

410
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,280
amplitude of random
fluctuations.

411
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,000
Now what does that mean?
Well, it means the very, very

412
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,560
small.
And say, you know, the kind of

413
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,480
physics that quantum mechanics
would concern itself with, It

414
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,680
can be dominated by random
fluctuations.

415
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,480
They can be so fast you're never
going to be able to measure

416
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,680
tooth attributes of anything at
any one point in time.

417
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,880
And in fact, you have to
articulate your entire physics

418
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,320
in terms of probability
distributions or probability

419
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:36,000
amplitudes and wave functions
and the like, simply because the

420
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:41,480
random fluctuations are
dominating over the over the

421
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,200
slower kinds of flows that
typically have a more

422
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,440
conservative aspect.
So I'll just introduce a key

423
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,880
distinction here.
It may sound silly, but you'll

424
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,080
see why it's relevant to your
question about whether the stars

425
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,240
have cognition.
So this flow can always be

426
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,400
decomposed into two bits, the
the.

427
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,000
This is basically a gift of the
Helmholtz decomposition.

428
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:13,720
The dynamics can be decomposed
into two parts, a conservative

429
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,440
part often known as divergent
free or solenoidal.

430
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:25,040
Basically the kind of flow that
you'd see as water flows down a

431
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,640
bath hole, a bath, a plug hole
that it circulates around.

432
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,720
So it's not falling down, it's a
component that actually stays at

433
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,240
the same height, the same
potential in gravitational

434
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,280
potential, but moves round and
round and round.

435
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,800
And then there's the other part,
which is a dissipative part

436
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:48,240
that's flowing down the
gradients down In the census, it

437
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,480
looks as if it's under the force
of gravity, you know, and that

438
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,840
dissipates energy, which is why
it's called dissipative part of

439
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,960
the flow.
Crucially, that dissipative part

440
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,080
of the flow is determined by the
amplitude of the random

441
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,840
fluctuations.
So when you're very, very small,

442
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,200
when you when you're doing
quantum physics, everything is

443
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:17,320
about dissipation, everything is
about minimising your potential,

444
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:23,360
trying to get to your your your
equilibrium, you know I say

445
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,960
described by the time
independence Schrodinger

446
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,320
equation.
But as you get bigger and bigger

447
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,480
and bigger, I mean literally
physically as you just get

448
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:35,280
bigger or you go from a you know
sort of a macro molecule to

449
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,680
let's say cellular structure,
from a cellular structure to a

450
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,160
multi cellular structure and so
on.

451
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,840
Then those those random
fluctuations and the

452
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,480
accompanying dissipative flows
starts to attenuate in relation

453
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,800
to the solenoidal flow to the
conservative flow.

454
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,280
So what would that look like?
Well, it would look like

455
00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:01,920
particles and cells will now
acquire a certain circular

456
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:08,320
aspect, a certain solenoid or
divergent 33 aspect.

457
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,560
What would that look like?
Well, it would look like

458
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,960
oscillations.
It would look at many different

459
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,280
scales.
It might look like the the

460
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,800
movement of flagella or cilia on
a cell.

461
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,440
It may look like.
If you're a physiologist, it

462
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,320
may, or if you're a
neurophysiologist, it may look

463
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,640
like sort of gamma oscillations
in the hippocampus.

464
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:34,880
If you're a cardiologist, it
might look like the cardiac

465
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:36,920
cycle.
If you're a spirited

466
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,000
physiologist, it would look like
you're the risk of breathing.

467
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:45,160
If you're a linguist, it would
look like the orbits that we

468
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,840
see, the cycles that we see in
producing language.

469
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,880
For example, if you're a motor,
if you're a motor physiologist,

470
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,400
it would look like walking.
If you're if you're a

471
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,680
meteorologist, it would, well,
that's probably taking a bit too

472
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,960
far.
So what I'm saying is that you

473
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:11,280
get into the world of
oscillations and orbits and life

474
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,200
cycles and that brings us back
to the mortality thing.

475
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,040
So that you're the
characteristic thing of biotics,

476
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,920
of the organization is this is
this life cycle.

477
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,160
Is this another expression of
the solenoidal flow?

478
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,240
Let's go even further.
Now let's go up to the scale of

479
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,840
the Earth and the moon and the
stars, at which point the random

480
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,440
fluctuations are completely
eliminated because they're

481
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,520
averaged away.
So now what are we left?

482
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,800
We're just left with this
conservative flow.

483
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,040
What is this?
It's just Newton's laws of

484
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,240
motion.
It is classical mechanics.

485
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:50,200
It's just the movement of large
massive bodies around, you know,

486
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,840
in the, in the, in the
classical, in the classical

487
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,400
orbit.
So that's why I introduced the

488
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,720
social solenoidal flow in the
sense that the rotation of of,

489
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:07,440
or the procession of your
heavenly bodies around each

490
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:12,960
other is the ultimate expression
that the solenoidal dynamics are

491
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,920
now predominant.
Simply because you're dealing

492
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,240
with very, very big things.
I mean and once you go back down

493
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,240
to the, you know, he went into
the heart of the sun, you could,

494
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,680
you could you could at a very
microscopic or quantum level,

495
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,040
quantum can still applies.
But the sun as an object at a

496
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,880
scale that we would perceive,
you know, by looking at it from

497
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,080
millions and millions of miles
away now acquires A Newtonian

498
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,360
mechanics, a LaGrange and a
classical mechanics.

499
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,320
So then you've got this spectrum
and one, I'm not absolutely sure

500
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,560
about this, but I think it's an
interesting proposition.

501
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,960
One question then.
Is there a Goldilocks regime

502
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,360
which is not completely
conservative and is not

503
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,560
completely dissipative In the
spirit of quantum mechanics

504
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:05,560
where you could find biotic
natural systems that have these

505
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:10,199
life cycles that have both this
dissipative aspect and across

506
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:11,679
the dissipation I'm talking
about here.

507
00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:18,199
The gradient flows down down
this non gravitational potential

508
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:24,719
but the the potential afforded
by the free energy you know

509
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,840
either of a thermodynamic sort
or variation free energy that

510
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,880
underwrites the free entry
principle that just is a self

511
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,600
evidencing.
So the self evidencing is the

512
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:41,000
continual maximisation of
evidence for your models.

513
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:46,880
The free, the variation free
energy is the negative log of

514
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,760
that evidence.
So that means you're always

515
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,560
trying to minimise.
So the variation free energy now

516
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,520
plays the role of a
gravitational potential.

517
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,040
It's like a potential energy as
it were and so we need the

518
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,360
dissipative part to self
evidence.

519
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:08,760
But if we self evidence in the
absence of if we self evidence

520
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,920
in the absence of any solenoidal
flow, we wouldn't be mortal

521
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,080
because we wouldn't have this
cyclical revisit this orbit,

522
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:21,760
this, this kind of itinerancy
that is necessary to break

523
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,320
detailed balance.
If you're you're if you're

524
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,200
somebody in dynamical systems
theory that is characteristic of

525
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:37,080
the stochastic chaos that we
confront and actually

526
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,680
instantiate in a very structured
way through this self

527
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:45,680
evidencing, dissipative
dissipative adaptation to to the

528
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,640
world.
So that that would be, that

529
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,800
would be my argument to say
probably the moon doesn't think

530
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,960
and probably electrons don't do
a lot of thinking.

531
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:03,320
But there is a range in between,
you know, that starts where MM

532
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:08,640
Levitt gets intrigued with Zeta
bots and and then like probably

533
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:14,560
stops at the other at the level
of of lorries and cars.

534
00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:19,720
Carl, my last the the last
episode I posted was with

535
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,240
Professor Stephen Grossberg.
I'm not sure if you're familiar

536
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:25,000
with his work.
Oh, yes, yes, absolutely.

537
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,400
No, he's not not a friend, but
I'm not really a mentor in the

538
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,480
sense that.
But he was certainly one of the

539
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,000
the great and good in the with
Jerry Edelman who was one of my

540
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:41,480
mentors before he moved to to
Boston from from the Rockefeller

541
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:42,720
in New York.
Yeah, absolutely.

542
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,640
I've spoken to Stephen twice now
and Steve's work, I mean it's

543
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:47,840
it's incredible.
I think.

544
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:49,960
I think he's underrated.
I think he's not.

545
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:51,720
He's not as well known as he
should be.

546
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,920
I believe that his work is it
goes under the radar because I

547
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,040
have perhaps similar to you.
The more complex the idea, the

548
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,880
less accessible it becomes to a
general audience and I think

549
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:04,760
that that does become a bit of a
hindrance.

550
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,760
But I posted the interview and
and Mike Levin posted commented

551
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,080
on the tweet saying he loves
Stephen Grossberg's work.

552
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,680
So my my question is these
dynamical systems he talks about

553
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:20,880
this trying to solve the brain
plasticity stability dilemma and

554
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,320
and and trying to figure out how
we cope with this catastrophic

555
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,680
forgetting etcetera.
How does the free energy

556
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:33,280
principle converge with this
idea and where does it diverge

557
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,360
and at what point do you guys
differentiate and define

558
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:42,000
yourselves as separate entities?
I don't think that we we would

559
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,800
really.
And I think I have a slightly

560
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,640
privileged perspective on
Stephen Grossberg's

561
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:55,360
contributions simply because of
the, you know, my heritage,

562
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,400
intellectual heritage starting
from where he started.

563
00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:02,680
In fact, I'll tell you a very
quick funny story that under

564
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,160
Jerry Adelman, we had to
relocate from New York to

565
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,560
California to the Scripps
Institute and then ultimately

566
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,560
the new Neurosciences Institute.
So we had to pack up everything

567
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,840
and put them into 16 Wheeler
Trucks and send everything off

568
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:24,240
to to California as we moved.
And I was in America at that

569
00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:27,680
time and and and helping sort of
do the packing up.

570
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,640
And during the packing up we
actually found Stephen

571
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:35,120
Grossberg's PhD in original
notes an officer he used to and

572
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,080
Jerry Edelman said well these
must be worth something by now

573
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:39,600
and I think he's absolutely
right.

574
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,960
So, you know, if you think back
and again this, this is very

575
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,800
much second hand of me listening
as a young man to the stories of

576
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:51,480
people like Jerry Edelman and
all of the great and good at

577
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,040
that time were telling.
Yeah, you could, I think, credit

578
00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:00,920
people like Jerry Edelman and
Stephen Grossberg with the

579
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,640
inception of computational
neuroscience and certainly that

580
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:09,360
crowd were responsible for
coining the term neuroscience.

581
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,160
And you know, the work that Jury
Edelman was doing and Stephen

582
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,240
Krosberg together with the
other, you know, wonderful

583
00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:17,440
thinkers, people like Vernon,
Mount Castle from a more

584
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,560
biological perspective, I think
underwrote what we now

585
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:26,480
understand as computational
neuroscience and to a certain

586
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,200
extent much of much of early
neural network theory, for

587
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:35,880
example.
So a lot of, a lot of the things

588
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:40,320
that we have been talking about
were foregrounded or prefigured

589
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,720
by their writings at that time,
which was very early on.

590
00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:48,120
This is sort of, you know, sort
of you know, 70s and 80s.

591
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:53,360
So you're you're saying Stephen
Grossberg's work has not had the

592
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,560
claim that it deserves?
I one.

593
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:01,480
Well, in in privileged circles
it is certainly acclaimed.

594
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,240
So you know, it may be that
millennials don't know about

595
00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:07,080
him, but that's that's their
problem really.

596
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,880
You know, Yeah, every generation
has to rediscover those basic

597
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,360
truths.
So on that view, you could say

598
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,120
he was just a bit before his
time as you could argue for

599
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:22,360
Jerry Adelman for, you know, if
you wanted to, so you know.

600
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:28,000
I think that all of Stephen
Grossberg's ideas have, you

601
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,280
know, are insightful.
They have a validity and will

602
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,320
prove the test of time.
What are the differences?

603
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,760
I don't think that the concepts
do differ in any way, in the

604
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:45,360
sense that you could naturalise
all of Grossberg's ideas under

605
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:50,280
the formalism under the Bayesian
mechanics and the self

606
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,360
evidencing mechanics that the
free energy affords.

607
00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:55,080
That's the purpose of the free
energy principle.

608
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:56,520
It's not trying to replace
anything.

609
00:40:56,720 --> 00:41:01,440
It's trying to say here is a
first principle account of what

610
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:06,040
we know is true, that we have
articulated in a particular way.

611
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,360
And Stephen Grossberg has a very
particular way of articulating

612
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,960
these ideas.
And I think that does sequester

613
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,880
him from millennials and the
general, you know, the general

614
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:26,160
public, you know, often accused
of a man who loves widgets and

615
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:32,440
inventing beautiful names for
for for sometimes complicated

616
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,000
but often very understandable
ideas.

617
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,320
Adaptive residence theory would
be one nice example here.

618
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,440
So adaptive resonance theory, as
it says on the, you know, on the

619
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,160
on the label on the tin is all
about the solenoidal flow with

620
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,600
within recurrent recurrent
neural networks.

621
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:55,440
That just is an expression of
the solenoidal self organization

622
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,520
we're just talking about.
But of course it's in the your

623
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,440
adaptive has the dissipative
part.

624
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,640
So we're just saying that to
adapt is to do our gradient

625
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,800
flows, do our optimization on
some objective functions, some

626
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,920
potential for for me that would
be the variational free energy.

627
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:20,000
So just in the adaptive
resonance theory, you've got the

628
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,040
dissipative and conservative
fundaments of all self

629
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,160
organization that are celebrated
in the PNG principle.

630
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,720
So, you know, I think it's just
a way that people understand and

631
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,440
call out these ideas with their
particular rhetoric that

632
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,000
differentiates certainly people
like me from people like Stephen

633
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,080
Grosberg.
But under the hood, I think

634
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,160
every, you know, everything that
Stephen Grossberg has brought to

635
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:51,200
the table and you know, should
find a very comfortable place in

636
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:55,280
21st century, you know, physics
of sentence that that that

637
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,720
things like the free energy
principle aspire to.

638
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,800
So I don't think there are any.
Can you think of any

639
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,880
differences?
I'm I'm not sure that there are

640
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:03,880
any really.
I think one thing he'd he

641
00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:09,040
briefly mentioned was if I if I
think about it, I don't think he

642
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,720
likes the idea of this fully
probabilistic idea.

643
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,160
It's more, it's more it is sort
of calculable.

644
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,440
There there is a dynamical
mathematical system that can

645
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:24,200
sort of solve certain problems.
And this whole idea of not of of

646
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:27,960
of placing probability theory to
all of this doesn't necessarily

647
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:32,640
answer the question.
I might be mistaken, but I think

648
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,680
that is one of the aspects we.
OK, well no, let us pretend

649
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:37,320
that's what he believes, because
I'm sure there are lots of

650
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,440
people that do.
Believe.

651
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,200
Let's work with that as.
You have to work with that one.

652
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,960
Yeah.
OK, Well, that well, I mean, in

653
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:50,880
fact, you could, you could argue
that an extreme version of that

654
00:43:51,720 --> 00:43:57,760
perspective haunts and frames
the entire reinforcement

655
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,760
learning community, including
deep RL, right.

656
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,000
Right.
Back to behaviourism and

657
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:10,080
reinforcement or behavioural
psychology, and you know where

658
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,400
where those notions come from.
So you know the notion that

659
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,600
reward or reinforcement is
enough.

660
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:21,280
It is all you need.
I think speaks to the fact,

661
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,040
well, you don't need probability
theory.

662
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,840
You know, if I could, if I've
got some optimization machine

663
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:32,880
and I've got a reward function,
off we go, yeah, GPT, you know,

664
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,000
we can deep learning, it's all
sorted.

665
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,760
Thank you.
So you know, I think there is a

666
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:42,320
view out there that you don't
need to either code or

667
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,960
articulate or have a a
mathematical or principled

668
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:50,880
account, a theoretical account
of optimization that is framed

669
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,280
in terms of beliefs or
probability distributions.

670
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,720
And that would be a really big
bright line between people like

671
00:44:59,720 --> 00:45:05,440
me and those kinds of people.
So as a physicist, you very

672
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:09,640
quickly realise that there is
nothing other than probability

673
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,000
distribution.
So right from quantum mechanics

674
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:18,520
you know which is just a
statement of you know the

675
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:23,320
symmetries and the solutions
that have ensued from casting

676
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:28,680
the universe in terms of
probabilities through to looking

677
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:34,320
at all of our self organization
in terms of belief updating in

678
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,960
terms of influence in terms of
you know basic brain hypothesis

679
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,520
as as the you know the the
counterpoint to the

680
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,120
reinforcement learning
perspective.

681
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:49,160
So you know I I think that
that's an important distinction.

682
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,120
I'm not so sure.
Yeah I'm perhaps Stephen

683
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,960
Grasberg was of that age.
I perhaps it was an age I don't

684
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,760
know this because I'm I wasn't
part of these debates.

685
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,600
But in there was a time when
there was a a lot of shouting

686
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,720
between people who were very
Bayesian and people who were

687
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:09,240
very frequentist and didn't
like, you know didn't didn't

688
00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:11,480
really subscribe to it at you
know, I.

689
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,600
Think one of one of the things
they they mentioned was the fact

690
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,640
that the ones at zeros are two.
It's too simple.

691
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:22,800
It's too simple for a complex
dynamical system that is the

692
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,640
human being to sort of to sort
of simplify this into a one or a

693
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,480
zero.
It's it's not enough.

694
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,920
This is way more complex.
And I think I'm either

695
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,240
paraphrasing Steve or one of his
students, Ogiogas, but one of

696
00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:37,560
them mentioned this as as just
being too simplistic and and

697
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:42,880
that's the mistake we're making,
right?

698
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,320
OK, I I could I could also just
be wrong and recalling a

699
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,800
completely different.
Well, no, no, Let's let's work

700
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,680
with that one.
So that's Rosa.

701
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:52,840
I'm just trying to get my head
around that.

702
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:58,400
So a a probabilistic formulation
in terms of either probability

703
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:08,840
theory or information theory is
too simple to unders to describe

704
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:14,880
complex dynamical systems.
I have to say I think that's an

705
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:19,800
absolute nonsense.
I understand why anybody might

706
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,880
say that.
In the sense of course, that

707
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:29,600
your complex dynamical systems
are usually only your written

708
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,080
down in terms of stochastic
chaos, which is just a way of

709
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,640
writing down the probability
density dynamics of a complex

710
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,200
system.
And certainly practically, that

711
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:45,560
really starts to bite when you
actually apply the theories of

712
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:52,520
complex systems in the service
of actually real time

713
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,480
monitoring, forecasting,
scenario modelling, situational

714
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,720
awareness where it matters.
So for example in the COVID,

715
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:03,840
recent COVID pandemic or climate
forecasting or meteorology or

716
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:12,040
psychology, all of these fields
you know effectively appeal to

717
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:16,440
the density dynamics, whether
it's sort of stochastic agent

718
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,920
based modelling through to
epidemiological modelling.

719
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,840
So I I I can't think of an
example of complex system

720
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,840
modelling that that could
possibly be aptly described and

721
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,880
without reference to to
probability theory.

722
00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:35,880
There are there is a community
out there I think, although I I

723
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:40,600
don't I don't with them who
would like to try and describe

724
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,320
everything in terms of
deterministic systems and

725
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:48,640
determinist deterministic chaos
and bifurcations and face

726
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,880
transitions.
I think that's an interesting

727
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,320
approach.
It is would be the limiting case

728
00:48:54,320 --> 00:49:00,000
where you've got you've still
got your and notice that the

729
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:04,760
only the only thing that makes
that interesting as a

730
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,200
description of a complex system
is this solenoidal flow.

731
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,040
It's the nonlinearities that are
required in order to get this

732
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:16,040
conservative, breaking a
detailed balance into the mix.

733
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,480
But is this a limiting case
where the random fluctuations

734
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,680
you know are very are very, very
small and it's not really fit

735
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,280
for purpose when it comes to
actually modelling real, real,

736
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,200
really complex systems?
So the reason perhaps it's a bit

737
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:31,880
hard to say it's absolute
nonsense.

738
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:38,000
I say it's absolute nonsense is
yeah, you need the random

739
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:43,760
fluctuations and the inherent
probability theory to talk about

740
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:49,360
the complex systems.
You know if you deny yourself

741
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:54,040
that you are basically trying to
describe complex systems with

742
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,840
very simple things like Lorenzo
tractors and and you know and

743
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,600
the like, which you can get
quite a long way with, but at a

744
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:05,400
certain point it just goes away.
You know, I actually don't think

745
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,160
it was Stevenson.
I think it was one of his

746
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:11,520
students who wrote a book on how
thinking emerged from chaos, and

747
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,040
I think it was based on what
you're talking about regarding

748
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:18,640
this, the the chaos theorem.
Now generally, it's just

749
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,360
unpredictable and there is no
sort of probabilistic outcome

750
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:23,760
from whatever you're trying to
study.

751
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:26,880
Right.
Yeah, again, that.

752
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:28,640
Even then, it still doesn't
move.

753
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,680
It really does not, I see.
So it's the indeterminism

754
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,720
sensitivity to initial
conditions in deterministic

755
00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:40,760
chaos that they're Yeah, I don't
think that's a tenable argument.

756
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:48,120
Stochastic chaos is exactly that
kind of indeterminacy, but also

757
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:52,360
now equipped with with with fast
random fluctuations.

758
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,760
So now that you have to deal
with probability, the evolution

759
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,440
of probability distribution that
will show chaos.

760
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,120
And that's what stochastic chaos
is about.

761
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:04,760
That's a description of the so
interesting random dynamical

762
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:10,080
systems like you, me and our
universe are just ways of

763
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:14,240
writing down the functional form
of the dynamics that shows

764
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,520
chaos.
Cole I noticed when because

765
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,200
because I'm a medical doctor, a
lot of, a lot of the listeners

766
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,320
assume that this podcast is a
medical podcast and it's not.

767
00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:28,280
It's very much a philosophical
podcast trying to understand the

768
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,600
mind, body problem,
consciousness, nature of

769
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,680
reality.
But I think even though when we

770
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,400
touch on these topics, you can't
help but have practical

771
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:42,640
significance and and delving to
these issues on morality or

772
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,920
certain practical issues.
For example, something you

773
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,800
brought up in one of your
lectures called synaptopathy.

774
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:51,640
Synaptopathy.
Am I saying that correctly?

775
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:53,200
Yes.
Yes.

776
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:57,480
What is synaptopathy and what is
the relevance of this with

777
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:59,360
regards to the Bayesian brain
and healthcare?

778
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:06,600
Right.
So it has great relevance.

779
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:15,000
So synaptopathy is is just a an
umbrella term for a pathology of

780
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:21,920
synapses.
So for those non non medics or

781
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:25,600
non neuroscientists, I repeat,
the synapse is basically a

782
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,960
microscopic plug and socket that
enables brain cells to

783
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:37,000
communicate.
That in turn lends the brain a

784
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,080
functional anatomy that can be
thought of as a deep neuronal

785
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:45,920
network, almost identical to the
deep recurrent neural networks

786
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,200
of the kind they might find and,
say, a transformer architecture.

787
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,800
There are certain other
principles of functional anatomy

788
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:59,840
and integration which would
characterise A neural network.

789
00:52:59,960 --> 00:53:03,880
But crucially, that neural
network depends upon synaptic

790
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:08,800
connections so that those
synaptic connections are

791
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,840
incredibly important.
And if they if there is any

792
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:18,760
pathology, you will inevitably
evince A neurological or

793
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,760
psychiatric disease.
Now, I'm not saying that all

794
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:26,240
psychiatric and neurological
disease can be cast as a

795
00:53:26,240 --> 00:53:31,160
synaptopathy, but anything that
is a synaptopathy will manifest

796
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,040
as a neurological or psychiatric
disease.

797
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:37,120
And then you've got all sorts of
etiologies for how synapses

798
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:43,440
might might breakdown.
There could be a chemical

799
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,200
imbalance that could be a
neurodevelopmental imbalance,

800
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,200
could be neurodegenerative
etiologies.

801
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,640
So you know, very simple example
that would be the Alzheimer's

802
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:57,760
disease, the kind of
dysfunctional sign synaptic

803
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:01,520
function you get in Parkinson's
disease.

804
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:08,040
Alpha synucleopathy is the kind
that you might get if you took a

805
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:14,040
psychedelic, took too many
psychedelics or too much of A

806
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,880
psychedelic.
So that would be a chemically

807
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:22,680
mediated synaptopathy.
So anything that disturbs,

808
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:27,720
perturbs or renders aberrant
synaptic communication could be

809
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:32,000
in a pathological way or that
then leads to a pathology is a

810
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,200
synaptopathy.
So it's a really important

811
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:36,680
concept.
I think if you're a neurologist,

812
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:40,400
and I repeat it is an umbrella
term because there could be lots

813
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:42,000
of ways in which you can break
your synapse.

814
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:48,480
The the reason it's particularly
fundamental for medicine, in

815
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:53,720
particular psychiatry or
neuropsychiatry is that those

816
00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:57,080
the synaptic connectivity
basically determines the

817
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,320
connection weights in your
neuronal network.

818
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:06,200
And very much in the spirit of
in the moment adaptation and

819
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:10,560
this contextualisation that
we're talking about, these

820
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:15,560
synapses, the static strength
changes over all time scales.

821
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:19,440
So before we're talking about
synaptic regression, you know,

822
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:23,080
to use Julio to know his notion
of synaptic academia stasis.

823
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,960
You know synapse is coming and
going in terms of them being

824
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:29,360
mortal structures.
But of course there's a whole

825
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:35,200
gamut of time scales where the
their expression and their

826
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:40,200
strength is contextualising in
in a base optimal way.

827
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:46,480
Right from you know, within
milliseconds in terms of after

828
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,640
hyper you know after hyper
polarisation effects or

829
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:54,400
refractory periods.
Then through to say you know

830
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,280
several 100 milliseconds with
after hyperpolarisation effects,

831
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:03,680
through to short term plasticity
through to early and late long

832
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:06,400
term plasticity.
So what I'm trying to get in

833
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:12,800
play is that synapses are the
thing that make you a good

834
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:17,840
regulator, a good model, a good
self evidencing machine because

835
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:23,520
they underwrite the network
structure that coordinates all

836
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:26,840
of your sense making and all of
your action be material,

837
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:31,960
autonomical, physiological.
And this architecture is

838
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:35,320
changing all the time, at many
different time scales in a

839
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,880
really coordinated and important
way of the sort that underwrites

840
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,800
everything that we learn, but
also in terms of everything we

841
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:45,840
attend to and everything that
we, you know, everything that

842
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:48,480
one could argue we actually
experience.

843
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:53,160
So that that that brings into
play an interesting kind of

844
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:58,720
pathology where you've lost the
ability to modulate or

845
00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:02,560
contextualise your synaptic
connections.

846
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:06,080
And then you start thinking,
well, what would that look like?

847
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:11,480
And at this point you start to
look to computational

848
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:15,480
neuroscience or theoretical
neurobiology, or functional

849
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:19,520
metaphors or explanations for
for teleologies that can be

850
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:24,760
naturalised mathematically.
That might point to what it

851
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:30,200
would look like if you actually
had a broken or a dysfunctional

852
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:34,000
modulation of synapses.
So the kind of top of the which

853
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,720
didn't mean that the synapse was
removed or degenerated, but was

854
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:42,480
now rendered impervious to
modulatory effects.

855
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:45,800
And I use the word modulatory
effects deliberately here

856
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:49,960
because most of the drugs that
are used in neurology and

857
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:53,560
psychiatry act upon
neuromodulatory systems.

858
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:55,960
So now we're talking about
particular kind of cytopathy,

859
00:57:55,960 --> 00:58:02,080
which is of a modulatory sort
usually associated with either

860
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:07,320
consequences or causes expressed
in ascending neuromodulated

861
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:11,960
neurotransmitter systems like
dopamine, acetarcolines, serum

862
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:17,440
5, HD, serotonin and a whole
host of other adrenaline, for

863
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:21,520
example, all of these oxytocin.
So all of these modulatory

864
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:26,000
neurotransmitters are in the
game of setting the gain of your

865
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:28,320
synapses in the right kind of
way.

866
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,720
So one really important
cytopathy is what is when the

867
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:34,840
synapse is no longer modulated
in that kind of way.

868
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,280
So IP, what would that look like
or how could one account for

869
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:41,280
what would the consequences of
that be?

870
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:48,320
So now if we turn to 1 instance
of the Bayesian brain and more

871
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:55,960
generally predictive processing
that is again it can be cast in

872
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:59,320
terms of a free energy free
energy minimising, self

873
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:04,720
enhancing process.
So in predictive coding, the

874
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:10,680
idea is that you are trying to
understand and make sense of the

875
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:16,480
world and indeed supply
predictions for your autonomic

876
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:20,120
and motor reflexes under a
generative model.

877
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:25,040
And the way that this works is
that you optimise your

878
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:29,240
predictions through a process of
basing, belief, updating, but

879
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:34,200
under a predicted coding all AKA
also known as a basic filtering

880
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:37,720
scheme, you do that by using
prediction errors.

881
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:41,240
So the idea is that you've got a
generative model in play you

882
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,880
that is almost universally a
deep model in the sense it has

883
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:49,880
hierarchical structure and this
hierarchy that is defined by

884
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:57,720
this sparse connections now can
be read as a generation inside

885
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:03,800
out generation predictions to
the sensorium or to the motor

886
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:09,240
plant or the autonomic system
and then.

887
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:14,480
Certain systems will have
sensors or sensory input and

888
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:17,840
then you'll compare your
prediction against the sensory

889
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:21,040
input to form a prediction
error, and then that prediction

890
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:26,080
error, suitably weighted by its
precision, by its by the

891
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:30,240
confidence that you ascribe by
its signal to noise ratio

892
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:35,160
effectively is then used to
drive your updates and that

893
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:38,640
drive that prediction error.
That precision weighted

894
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,920
prediction error is
mathematically formally

895
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:44,560
identical to the free variation
free energy gradient.

896
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:48,440
So irrespective of the form of
your generative model, you can

897
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,760
always write down in this
gradient flow we were talking

898
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:55,000
about before the dissipative
part of my dynamics, my sense of

899
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:59,440
making myself evidencing as a
flow on a free energy gradient.

900
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:01,920
That just is the prediction
error.

901
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:08,680
I won't explain why why figures
so centrally predictive coding,

902
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:14,000
but the key point here is that
notice I said precision weighted

903
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,440
prediction error.
So what does that precision

904
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:21,040
weighting mean from the point of
view of a physiologist?

905
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:26,920
Well, it would mean that if I am
say, a neuron or a neural

906
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:30,040
population now reporting a
prediction error to somebody

907
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:32,520
higher to another neural
population higher in the

908
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:38,880
hierarchy and thereby driving
them to a better explanation

909
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:42,880
than would explain me away where
I am now, comparing my top down

910
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,800
predictions with my bottom up
sensory information.

911
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:52,720
Then the degree to which I
broadcast these ascending

912
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:56,360
prediction errors on this
hierarchical architecture is

913
01:01:56,360 --> 01:02:00,920
going to be determined by the
precision of my report.

914
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:05,560
So a very imprecise, a very low
signal to noise and prediction

915
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:08,920
error should not have any
influence on my belief updating

916
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:12,520
and therefore I will actually
desensitise myself as a

917
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:14,960
prediction error population or
prediction error.

918
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:18,440
In Neuron, it is incidentally
usually associated with some

919
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:22,040
superficial parameter cells
sitting on the top layers of

920
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:24,960
your of your cortex and your
brain.

921
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:32,000
I will desensitise or I will
reduce my sensitivity to all of

922
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:35,640
my inputs so that I'm not
shouting at you to change your

923
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:39,440
mind so you're the higher you're
higher in your population.

924
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:44,560
And I've done that because you
have told me that in this

925
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:47,720
context what you've got to say
is very imprecise.

926
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:51,920
So for example, I might be a
little visual neuron or neural

927
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:54,640
population, but the lights are
off.

928
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:58,160
So anything I say is complete,
completely imprecise, it's just

929
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:00,880
noise basically.
And you know that because you

930
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,720
you've inferred that that that
we're operating in dark room.

931
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:09,560
So you'll decrease my precision
via these neuromodulatory

932
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:16,720
mechanisms and therefore I will
not be reporting what's going

933
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:18,880
on.
Now imagine the situation where

934
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:21,320
you've got a particular
synaptopathy that's a

935
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:25,760
nucleopathy, for example, in the
occipital cortex, where you now

936
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:31,800
cannot control my gain.
So now I'm stuck in a particular

937
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:36,680
modulatory, synaptic state where
I'm always reporting stuff.

938
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:41,080
Now that's going to be, that's
going to have profound effects

939
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:46,080
on your belief updating and on
what you actually believe is a

940
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:48,400
cause of your of your sensory
input.

941
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:50,280
You're going to start
hallucinating.

942
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:56,280
And indeed that's what you see
in many, in many synaptopathies

943
01:03:56,280 --> 01:04:01,320
or syneupopathies involving, you
know, sensory, you know, so that

944
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:03,920
you know the visual, the visual
cortex.

945
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:09,760
So what we're saying here is
that synaptopathy of this

946
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:17,440
particular sort inevitably
targets a really delicate part

947
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:22,320
of inference and sense making,
which is getting the precision

948
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:26,160
or the standard error or the
signal to noise estimates right.

949
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:31,480
And it will inevitably lead to
profound difficulties in

950
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:33,760
inference.
So what's going to happen is

951
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:35,880
your brain is going to make
false inferences.

952
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:38,640
And I mean this is a very, you
know, sort of standard,

953
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:41,360
straightforward way.
If you were teaching your, your

954
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:45,960
medical students, you know about
type one and type 2 statistics,

955
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:49,120
statistical errands, this is
exactly the kind of false

956
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:53,200
inference that the brain can
make if you have this form of

957
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:57,160
synaptopathy.
So you could commit type 1

958
01:04:57,160 --> 01:04:59,160
errors.
Inferring something is there

959
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:01,160
when it is not.
What's that?

960
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:03,800
And that's an hallucination,
That's a delusion.

961
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:06,640
That's you inferring something
is there when there was no

962
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:09,800
actual cause or you could make a
type 2 error.

963
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:12,680
What does that mean?
Well, it means I'm inferring

964
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:14,520
something not is not there when
it is.

965
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:17,120
What's that?
That's a neglect syndrome.

966
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:23,040
That's a dissociation syndrome.
So, and you can start telling,

967
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:26,680
you know, formally identical, at
least mathematically formally

968
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:30,440
identical stories to explain
things like Parkinson's disease.

969
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:33,840
And this introduces a really
interesting twist that normally

970
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:38,440
people think about.
If you're a psychologist you

971
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:43,360
think about this capacity to
contextualise your your synaptic

972
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:47,520
strengths in terms of gain
control.

973
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:51,440
Often described or used to be
pre millennial with cortical

974
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:53,560
gain control it's now post
millennial.

975
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:56,920
It's not excitation inhibition
balance but it's the same

976
01:05:56,920 --> 01:05:59,680
concept.
It's the excitability of of you

977
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:04,600
know so populations in cortical
micro circuits you normally

978
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:06,920
think about that in terms of
attentional gain.

979
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:11,320
So if I want to attend to this
kind of information, say it

980
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:15,320
could be auditory or some other
sensory in a very dark room,

981
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:19,320
then I'm going to increase those
pathways by increasing the gain

982
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:24,880
of those prediction area units,
for example in a predictive

983
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:27,800
coding scheme.
So this precision weighting of

984
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:29,640
prediction errors.
And you'll find that the notion

985
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:32,320
of precision weighted prediction
errors, quite central in some

986
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:36,640
Neuro Philosophical Council
predictive processing is often

987
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:40,680
associated with with selecting
the newsworthy information by

988
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:44,560
attentional gain processes that
are mediated by things like,

989
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:49,000
say, current urgent discharges
and the ensuing fast synchronous

990
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:52,600
dynamics that they normally
entail.

991
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:59,400
However, there is probably a
much more important complement

992
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:01,880
to attentional gain that sense
retenuation.

993
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:08,360
So we actually spend 99% of our
modulatory attentional

994
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:12,360
mechanisms ignoring stuff.
You know the classic think about

995
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:14,960
your left toe.
So why weren't you attending to

996
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:17,200
your left toe before?
Why didn't you feel, why don't

997
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:20,640
you have any phonology from your
left toe until I, actually.

998
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:25,640
So 99.9 recurring and all the
prediction areas that we could

999
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:30,000
harvest we could garner in the
in the service of self

1000
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:34,640
evidencing is actually ignored.
So we're attenuating all of this

1001
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:38,520
stuff all the time.
So what would happen if I had a

1002
01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:42,720
sign up top of the that
precluded sensory attenuation?

1003
01:07:44,600 --> 01:07:48,640
If, for example, this particular
sensory attenuation was in the

1004
01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:52,360
motor domain, what that would
mean is I can't ignore the fact

1005
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:56,040
that I'm not moving.
So if I was unable to ignore the

1006
01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:58,520
fact I was not moving, what
would that look like?

1007
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:02,280
Well, if I had the prior belief
I'm about to stand up the

1008
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:06,600
intention to stand up in say
some high level central pattern

1009
01:08:06,600 --> 01:08:11,240
generator, they would normally
be realised by motor reflexes as

1010
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:17,920
a prior belief that then is
realised by minimising the

1011
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:21,520
prediction errors that ensue
from this very very precise top

1012
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:26,479
down prediction.
But if I'm now confronted with

1013
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:30,520
the fact that all this very,
very precise prediction errors

1014
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:34,040
telling me I'm not moving,
that's going to override my

1015
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:37,680
intention to move.
So if I can't ignore the fact

1016
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:41,120
I'm not moving, I can never
realise the intention to move.

1017
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:45,279
That's just Brady Kinesia of the
kind that you would find in

1018
01:08:45,279 --> 01:08:49,319
things like Parkinson's disease.
You can't initiate movements

1019
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:53,080
simply because you can't attend
away from or ignore the fact.

1020
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:56,359
You can think of this in many
other domains.

1021
01:08:56,359 --> 01:09:00,880
Let's pretend that I now can't
attenuate as a failure of

1022
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:05,800
sensory attenuation to certain
interceptive signals, say

1023
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:08,359
mesenteric signals or signals
from the gut.

1024
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:13,960
So I can't attend away from all
those little intercepted signals

1025
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:16,600
that normally I ignore.
So now I have to find

1026
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:20,880
explanations for them.
So normally I would ignore all

1027
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:24,640
the gut feelings, the
interception from from my

1028
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:27,279
gastrin to simultubtract.
But now I'm trying to find

1029
01:09:27,279 --> 01:09:30,000
explanations.
Have I got bowel cancer?

1030
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:33,600
Yeah.
Is this pain you know what is

1031
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:35,279
causing.
And of course, the more you

1032
01:09:35,279 --> 01:09:38,120
attend to it, the more you'd
have to find these explanations.

1033
01:09:38,359 --> 01:09:41,640
So you can see immediately now
that you've got, you know, a

1034
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:45,560
fairly mechanistic and quite
plausible explanation for

1035
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:50,720
stomatisation and possibly even
chronic pain that that is just

1036
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:55,360
due to, to, at the end of the
day, a failure of a particular

1037
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:59,400
kind of modulation synaptopathy,
where you where there's a

1038
01:09:59,440 --> 01:10:02,880
failure of sensory attenuation.
Let's say I was born with this.

1039
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:08,800
I've born with an inability to
filter out to attenuate sense,

1040
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,560
visual or extraceptive
information.

1041
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:14,680
What would that look like?
Well, it means that I'd always

1042
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:17,880
be glued to the sensorium.
It means I would not be able to

1043
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:23,040
attend away and I would find and
thereby not be able to build

1044
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:25,680
deep generative models to
explain away the prediction

1045
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,320
errors.
Which means that I'm going to

1046
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:31,960
now try to going to try and
avoid unpredictable,

1047
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:34,520
unexplainable sensory
impressions.

1048
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:36,840
So what am I talking about?
I'm talking about severe autism,

1049
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:39,120
which is where the story
actually started.

1050
01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:44,480
So it's your this would be
another expression of this kind

1051
01:10:44,480 --> 01:10:47,800
of sciatropathy, but in this is
in the Extraceptive domain.

1052
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:51,480
And if you pair that now with
the interceptive domain and sort

1053
01:10:51,480 --> 01:10:56,560
of attachment theory and
affiliative touch being sort of

1054
01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:59,520
halfway between the
somatosensory and an

1055
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:03,000
interceptive modality, you can
start to elaborate all sorts of

1056
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:06,360
stories about what it would look
like with this one.

1057
01:11:06,360 --> 01:11:09,720
Very simple, very pernicious
pathology which is just being

1058
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:12,920
able to get the gain control on
your synaptic connections.

1059
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:16,560
So that's why synaptopathy is so
important for me.

1060
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:21,240
It's it's it's so fascinating
because as you're talking about

1061
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:24,160
this, something that comes to
mind for me is when we think of

1062
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:27,120
all these levels of credences
that are placed on experience,

1063
01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:29,360
these priors and posterior
outcomes.

1064
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:34,840
You guys mentioned 5 E theory,
which is pretty much based on 4

1065
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:36,640
E cognition.
Andy Clark's work.

1066
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:41,680
I mean they talk about Embodied,
enacted, embedded, and what is

1067
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:43,640
the 4th 1:00?
Extended.

1068
01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:47,040
Yes, extended by.
So when you take into account

1069
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:50,080
these ES and and you're you're
50, which you can obviously

1070
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:55,280
elaborate on in terms of levels
of importance or credence

1071
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:59,160
regarding the priors and
posteriors when it comes to

1072
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:03,400
psychiatry.
In terms of synapt synaptopathy,

1073
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:06,480
have you pronounced that my
South African accent's obviously

1074
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:10,360
playing a role there.
Do you think that SSR is for

1075
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:13,760
example, with regards to each E?
Now we're talking about if

1076
01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:17,280
you're giving someone an SSRI,
you're addressing 1 psychiatric

1077
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:20,760
component of this illness.
Yet we know now that if you take

1078
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:25,240
a human's experience, there is a
multi layered experience.

1079
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:28,240
So is this SSRI enough
considering the fact that

1080
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:31,080
they're embodied, they're
embedded in this environment

1081
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:36,080
extended, how much credence is
each one worth and at what point

1082
01:12:36,080 --> 01:12:41,320
should we adjust protocol or
treatment within mental health

1083
01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:43,000
psychiatry?
Even as a General practitioner,

1084
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:46,560
what should we do practically to
use this new information?

1085
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:52,280
Yeah, I I mean, I'd hesitate to
to say too much about that

1086
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:55,440
because I haven't seen patients
for a long time now I I so see

1087
01:12:55,440 --> 01:12:58,520
students.
I I always put a disclaimer call

1088
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:00,760
just just to be aware.
Just I always put a disclaimer

1089
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:02,680
in the video.
This is a philosophy podcast so

1090
01:13:02,680 --> 01:13:05,240
all of this is highly
theoretical and people should

1091
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:08,960
know that always seek help.
This is not active medical

1092
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:10,480
advice.
Right.

1093
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:18,120
And or even, you know, even
advising my neurological or

1094
01:13:18,120 --> 01:13:21,120
psychiatric colleagues or even
you know, general practitioners

1095
01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:23,680
and and healthcare
professionals.

1096
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:27,920
But I think, but I think you
make an extremely good point

1097
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:34,640
that you know these these
monolithic approaches with

1098
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:42,560
reuptake inhibitors or you know
antipsychotics are are very,

1099
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:48,960
very blunt simply because they
do not target and in in the

1100
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:54,240
right kind of way the
functionally specialised anatomy

1101
01:13:54,240 --> 01:13:56,400
that computational atomy that
we've been talking about.

1102
01:13:56,960 --> 01:14:01,920
So for example, I just told you
a few stories, same mechanism,

1103
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:04,680
different systems, completely
different pathologies from

1104
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:09,560
Parkinson's disease to autism,
and that that distinction rests

1105
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:14,280
just upon the particular part of
the brain where that sign

1106
01:14:14,280 --> 01:14:17,680
uptopathy was.
That kind of sign uptopathy or

1107
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:22,640
Barrick neuromodulation was
being expressed.

1108
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:26,480
So that tells you immediately if
you give a drug that targets

1109
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:29,440
everything, you're not going to
be very specialised or

1110
01:14:29,440 --> 01:14:35,000
personalized in shaping or
tailoring that pharmacotherapy

1111
01:14:35,040 --> 01:14:37,880
for that particular person.
Simply because you're targeting,

1112
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:41,400
you know, targeting the, you
know the wrong part of the

1113
01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:44,800
brain.
And furthermore as as you all

1114
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:52,480
know there is a, A, a, a, a
topography associated with all

1115
01:14:52,480 --> 01:14:56,600
of these neuromodulatory systems
in the sense that for example

1116
01:14:56,600 --> 01:15:02,040
dopamine you know has very well
defined mesocortical mesolimbol

1117
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:05,040
projection systems to the to the
cortex and different parts of

1118
01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:08,360
the cortex with very different
profiles of dopamine sub

1119
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:12,800
receptors and presynaptic and
all sorts of things with all

1120
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:17,880
different subtypes.
So it's very difficult and of

1121
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:21,240
course you know many people
including many of my colleagues

1122
01:15:21,280 --> 01:15:24,080
and their entire here's trying
to you know unpack it.

1123
01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:27,240
Just the, you know, one
particular subtype of one

1124
01:15:27,240 --> 01:15:29,680
particular neuromodulatory
whether it's sort of you know

1125
01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:35,880
the D2 receptor dopamine or
where it's 55 HT 2A as opposed

1126
01:15:35,880 --> 01:15:39,400
to two BI have friends who I
was, I was mentored by people

1127
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:43,240
who love the 2B receptor.
Most of my friends like like the

1128
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:47,840
two A receptor because that's
the one that's activated by

1129
01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:50,480
psychedelics, which is another
example.

1130
01:15:50,680 --> 01:15:55,040
You know that you know there is
the, you know, the receptors,

1131
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:59,360
the serotonergic 5 HT 2A
receptors have a very particular

1132
01:16:00,920 --> 01:16:03,480
distribution.
You know that reflects the

1133
01:16:03,480 --> 01:16:07,000
projection fields of of the
social allergic system on the

1134
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:11,000
raffane.
So, you know, you even given one

1135
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:18,320
drug, says an SSRI, you're
you're going to have no control

1136
01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:20,680
over where you're actually
tuning this.

1137
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:23,280
And this is particularly
relevant in terms of things like

1138
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:31,880
the effects of psychedelics on
higher level belief structures

1139
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:35,560
implicit in hierarchical
generative models in the brain

1140
01:16:35,960 --> 01:16:39,080
relative to the lower level
sense making parts.

1141
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:41,240
And I mentioned that
specifically because of course

1142
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:44,480
that's very relevant for Psalm
Simon assisted psychotherapy for

1143
01:16:44,480 --> 01:16:46,560
example.
And I suspect that's that you

1144
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:52,160
know that will be one real
answer that to make the most use

1145
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:58,800
of and the the pharmacological
tools available to neurologists

1146
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:04,120
and and psychiatrists.
Then an understanding of the

1147
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:07,160
mechanisms of action and in
particular the functional

1148
01:17:07,160 --> 01:17:10,360
specialisation, functional both
in terms of the sense making,

1149
01:17:10,360 --> 01:17:12,600
say for example under a
predictive coding or predictive

1150
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:15,560
processing model, but also in
terms of the functional anatomy

1151
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:21,360
and the you know, the the
neurochemistry and receptor

1152
01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:23,800
architect tonics that people
have put a lot of effort into

1153
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:27,640
database and understanding to
make the most of that.

1154
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:33,160
Then understanding the mechanics
of the what these drugs are

1155
01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:38,600
doing and the systems upon which
they are operating may be very

1156
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:42,680
useful in motivating, for
example, combined psychotherapy

1157
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:46,920
with, you know, particular drug
treatment.

1158
01:17:47,880 --> 01:17:51,800
So you know, one one example of
this and I'm sure there are

1159
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:57,440
many, many examples of this, but
is the work of people, the

1160
01:17:57,440 --> 01:18:01,720
theoretical work of people like
Robin Carhartt Harris and you

1161
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:05,240
know, his Memphis people like
Dave Nutt and another very

1162
01:18:05,240 --> 01:18:09,680
worthy senior colleagues where
there's now, you know, a

1163
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:16,600
proposal that 5HG2A agonism or
psychedelic drugs can have

1164
01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:20,760
effects of multiple time scales.
So it's not just So the standard

1165
01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:25,080
story in this in this in my
world would be that you're

1166
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:30,520
changing the precision of sense
making or prediction error, for

1167
01:18:30,520 --> 01:18:34,120
example, neural populations in
the visual hierarchy in a

1168
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:38,000
hierarchically imbalanced way.
So that you're dissolving the

1169
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:41,840
precision, reducing the
precision of higher level belief

1170
01:18:41,840 --> 01:18:46,800
structures in favour of
affording greater precision to

1171
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:51,880
lower level processing or belief
updating or predictive coding.

1172
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:56,680
And that would explain the
visual hallucinosis you

1173
01:18:56,880 --> 01:19:00,200
experience with psychedelics,
but also the therapeutic effect

1174
01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:04,320
in the sense that you now you
can lift yourself out of or you

1175
01:19:04,320 --> 01:19:07,200
are, you are literally, if
you're stuck in a rut with very,

1176
01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:11,200
very precise prize in terms of,
you know, the way that I think

1177
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:16,320
that I perceive and make sense
of things and also infer what

1178
01:19:16,320 --> 01:19:19,560
I'm going to do next, the way
that I plan, the way that I the

1179
01:19:19,600 --> 01:19:22,880
way that I am an agent.
If you have very, very precise

1180
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:24,640
beliefs, you're literally stuck
in a rut.

1181
01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:29,200
And by decreasing the precision
you now form the latitude to

1182
01:19:29,200 --> 01:19:34,160
explore more alternative
hypothesis of being, ways of

1183
01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:39,240
being.
So you know that would be 1 if

1184
01:19:39,240 --> 01:19:46,640
you like story or narrative that
inherits from a computational

1185
01:19:46,800 --> 01:19:51,960
view of our self evidencing view
of the brain that would inform

1186
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:55,640
us at least the licensee use of
psychedelics in the context of

1187
01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:59,640
psychotherapy that you know
you've opened up new ways of

1188
01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:01,720
being.
Let's explore that.

1189
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:04,480
Of course you're finding the new
way.

1190
01:20:04,480 --> 01:20:07,360
Would there be responsibility to
be a psychotherapist or, or

1191
01:20:07,400 --> 01:20:10,720
you're counselling?
You wouldn't necessarily have to

1192
01:20:10,720 --> 01:20:14,080
do it all by yourself.
But there's another time course

1193
01:20:14,080 --> 01:20:19,680
which has come into focus, which
is sometimes expressed in terms

1194
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:22,400
of metaplasticity.
So this is the it's just the

1195
01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:28,360
ability of certain drugs to
promote the plastic potential

1196
01:20:28,360 --> 01:20:30,080
that we were talking about right
at the beginning of this

1197
01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:33,080
interview.
That is afforded childlike

1198
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:40,480
brains that that
impressionability the the the

1199
01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:43,840
kind of relaxation of prize.
Now that that that

1200
01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:47,680
contextualises how much I can
learn.

1201
01:20:47,680 --> 01:20:53,720
So if I can render myself much
more learnable by resetting the

1202
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:58,600
potential for change in synaptic
strengths, you know which is

1203
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:01,040
what I meant by the synaptic
plasticity.

1204
01:21:01,440 --> 01:21:04,240
I've now opened up a window of
opportunity to learn something

1205
01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:05,720
new.
So that's the another

1206
01:21:05,720 --> 01:21:11,280
perspective on the conjoint use
or most or possibly even more

1207
01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:21,480
simple minded use and deployment
of certain psycholytic mind

1208
01:21:21,480 --> 01:21:28,960
altering drugs that you're
basically creating windows of of

1209
01:21:29,040 --> 01:21:32,920
opportunity for change and then
you can start to plan what kind

1210
01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:36,520
of therapy do you do, you do you
engage in during that window of

1211
01:21:36,520 --> 01:21:39,040
opportunity where you can learn
new ways of being.

1212
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:42,920
My anecdotal understanding the
literature in this area is this

1213
01:21:42,920 --> 01:21:52,000
view has proved in trials.
You know certainly there is

1214
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:55,320
evidence that psychedelics
certainly have a therapeutic

1215
01:21:55,400 --> 01:21:58,360
efficient efficacy and
particularly the context of end

1216
01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:03,400
of life care.
You know where hypothesis about

1217
01:22:03,640 --> 01:22:06,680
how I make sense of information,
sensory information or indeed

1218
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:09,360
stuff that I read on the
Internet or what my doctor is

1219
01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:14,560
telling me and also ways of
behaving the way that I should.

1220
01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:15,680
You know what kind of person am
I?

1221
01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:19,360
I'm a dying person.
Is that the right prior?

1222
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:22,560
Are there other ways of
celebrating your end of life?

1223
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:26,720
You know, but to get to those
other other alternatives, you've

1224
01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:30,400
got to relax those priors and
rend yourself impressionable

1225
01:22:30,400 --> 01:22:34,040
like a child again.
And it may be that thinking

1226
01:22:34,040 --> 01:22:37,800
about the use of certain drugs
in that context may be a useful

1227
01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:42,240
way for people to actually artic
to motivate their therapeutic

1228
01:22:42,240 --> 01:22:47,080
interventions.
And also again, another

1229
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:55,320
potentially useful contribution
of this kind of theorizing is

1230
01:22:55,320 --> 01:22:58,200
that a narrative for the for the
patient or the client.

1231
01:22:59,000 --> 01:23:03,320
If the patient understands the
source and the nature of their

1232
01:23:03,320 --> 01:23:08,920
hallucinosis or their delusions
or the sermatisation, then

1233
01:23:09,040 --> 01:23:11,600
having a rationale much in the
spirit of cognitive behaviour

1234
01:23:11,600 --> 01:23:16,000
therapy, you know, trying to
understand why panic attacks

1235
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:17,720
occur.
Just understand the Physiology

1236
01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:21,160
of panic attacks.
Understanding that if you like,

1237
01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:24,480
can sometimes be therapeutically
extremely useful to equip and

1238
01:23:24,480 --> 01:23:28,000
empower the patient with an
understanding of the mechanics

1239
01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:30,920
of what is happening to them and
why it is happening to them.

1240
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:34,760
Even if there's little one can
do therapeutically, just that

1241
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:37,360
level of understanding can can
sometimes be therapeutically

1242
01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:41,800
very viable.
So a number of colleagues you

1243
01:23:42,680 --> 01:23:49,120
know and friends in
psychotherapy and you know, tell

1244
01:23:49,120 --> 01:23:51,200
very convincing stories along
this lines.

1245
01:23:51,200 --> 01:23:53,720
You know in terms of group
therapy, Just talking about

1246
01:23:54,280 --> 01:23:57,480
active inference and
interception and mentalising

1247
01:23:57,480 --> 01:24:01,000
their homeostasis and their
Physiology and understanding how

1248
01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:05,640
they how they infer themselves
to be in particular mental

1249
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:08,880
states on the basis of sensory
evidence from from their body

1250
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:12,080
for example.
That can be quite a powerful

1251
01:24:12,240 --> 01:24:16,440
psychotherapeutic tool.
It reminds me of the work done

1252
01:24:16,440 --> 01:24:19,320
by Randolph Nessie.
I'm not sure if you're familiar

1253
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:22,920
with Randolph Nessie's work that
he's known as the father of

1254
01:24:23,160 --> 01:24:27,200
evolutionary psychiatry.
Are you familiar with his work,

1255
01:24:27,440 --> 01:24:29,120
Carl?
I'm afraid not, no.

1256
01:24:29,240 --> 01:24:31,920
No, I love that, he thought.
I will.

1257
01:24:32,280 --> 01:24:35,840
He wrote a book called Good
Reasons for Bad Feelings.

1258
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:39,560
Just trying to sort of show show
people that evolution does have

1259
01:24:39,560 --> 01:24:44,600
a very grounded and great basis
for explaining phenomena such as

1260
01:24:44,600 --> 01:24:46,240
mental disorder.
So you don't, You don't.

1261
01:24:46,240 --> 01:24:46,960
I see.
Yeah.

1262
01:24:47,120 --> 01:24:49,280
So it's.
Anyway, it ties into that very

1263
01:24:49,280 --> 01:24:51,600
well.
Something I was keen to ask you

1264
01:24:51,600 --> 01:24:54,600
about was have you read Andy
Clark's new book on the

1265
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:57,600
Experience Machine?
I have.

1266
01:24:57,600 --> 01:25:00,080
I had to because I had to write
his blurb for it, so.

1267
01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:02,520
Yeah, I think I remember that.
Yes.

1268
01:25:03,240 --> 01:25:03,680
What?
What?

1269
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:06,160
What were your thoughts on that?
Oh, I loved it.

1270
01:25:06,160 --> 01:25:09,160
But there again, I mean, I have
to say, Andy Clark's a friend of

1271
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:13,040
mine, so I can't.
So I I have a conflict of

1272
01:25:13,520 --> 01:25:15,880
interest or certainly a sort of
biased perception.

1273
01:25:16,120 --> 01:25:18,160
Yeah.
I mean, I've said this before

1274
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:22,240
and, you know, I regard Andy as
a brother in arms.

1275
01:25:22,240 --> 01:25:25,200
So why?
Well, I tell the physics story.

1276
01:25:25,200 --> 01:25:28,040
He tells the philosophy story,
and it's the same story.

1277
01:25:29,120 --> 01:25:31,480
You know, it could be a Stephen
Grossberg story at some point.

1278
01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:35,760
And so I love the way he writes.
Yeah.

1279
01:25:35,760 --> 01:25:41,840
He's, you know, he's sometimes
criticised by other philosophers

1280
01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:46,800
for a very familiar style of
writing which most younger

1281
01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:50,200
philosophers not get away with.
But because of his stature and

1282
01:25:50,200 --> 01:25:55,040
his age and his wisdom, I think
he gets away with with a style

1283
01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:58,360
of philosophy which is, I find
very compelling and I find him

1284
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:04,080
extremely fluent and you know,
expresses all the right ideas in

1285
01:26:04,440 --> 01:26:08,120
the right kind of way, just an
ounce or a a, you know, a pinch

1286
01:26:08,120 --> 01:26:11,760
of skepticism at every at every
point.

1287
01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:14,680
But I thought it was beautiful.
I I still remember the first

1288
01:26:14,680 --> 01:26:17,360
time I I read some of his work
and when I came across for a

1289
01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:20,000
cognition I remember thinking
this this makes so much sense.

1290
01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:25,480
You know we really are these
embodied beings extended minds.

1291
01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:29,840
You guys added an extra E in
that paper Mortal computation.

1292
01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:32,280
Would you mind reminding me what
that was?

1293
01:26:32,280 --> 01:26:34,880
Because for some reason I.
Yeah.

1294
01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:36,720
No, I was hoping you would do
that as well.

1295
01:26:37,480 --> 01:26:39,480
For some reason I just cannot
record it, but it was.

1296
01:26:39,640 --> 01:26:45,440
I think it was basal cognition.
It was a similar, a synonym

1297
01:26:45,440 --> 01:26:48,440
almost for basal cognition and
but from a computational

1298
01:26:48,440 --> 01:26:52,840
perspective Nevertheless.
A full E cognition is something

1299
01:26:52,960 --> 01:26:56,200
that is very prevalent among
philosophy students today and

1300
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:57,360
the way they think about the
mind.

1301
01:26:57,560 --> 01:27:04,440
What are your thoughts on that?
Well, again, you know, it is a

1302
01:27:04,480 --> 01:27:11,880
style of thinking which I, as
you point out is probably the

1303
01:27:11,880 --> 01:27:14,480
predominant style now since the
turn of the century.

1304
01:27:16,440 --> 01:27:24,880
And you know, it is something
that is certainly celebrated and

1305
01:27:25,760 --> 01:27:30,000
accommodated by the by the free
energy principle, in particular

1306
01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:32,400
active inferences, a reason it's
called active inference.

1307
01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:34,280
For several reasons.
It's called active inference,

1308
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:42,760
but one of the reasons is to get
active into the game as an

1309
01:27:42,760 --> 01:27:46,880
acknowledgement of the
importance of inactivism, which

1310
01:27:46,880 --> 01:27:49,120
is quite fundamental for open
systems.

1311
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:54,760
You know, if you want to
understand behaviour and sense

1312
01:27:54,760 --> 01:28:03,640
making in a situated of a
situated sort or an embodied

1313
01:28:03,640 --> 01:28:08,000
sort being, you know, one
particular kind of situated of

1314
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:11,640
situation, then you have to
acknowledge there's a there's a

1315
01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:17,000
reciprocal or recurrent coupling
exchange between you and the

1316
01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:20,800
situation, and in One Direction
it's action and the other

1317
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:25,400
direction it's perception.
So you know the very

1318
01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:30,560
mathematical, the the calculus
of active inference, you know

1319
01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:35,080
has to be courteous to the an
activist perspective.

1320
01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:41,320
And you know, and all of all of
the ES, if you like, in one

1321
01:28:41,320 --> 01:28:45,880
sense speak to different
perspectives on that, on that

1322
01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:48,480
reciprocal coupling that is a
characteristic.

1323
01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:51,680
I'll I managed to find your
first E It's elementary.

1324
01:28:52,640 --> 01:28:54,960
Elementary.
It's a cognition stance on

1325
01:28:54,960 --> 01:28:57,760
fundamental functions and
structures that enable acting

1326
01:28:57,760 --> 01:29:01,080
and tracking aspects of a niche
to ensure survival.

1327
01:29:02,480 --> 01:29:06,080
Excellent.
So that is the that is the the

1328
01:29:06,080 --> 01:29:11,680
EU guys added to the SO.
That's good.

1329
01:29:12,440 --> 01:29:13,920
We just have to remember the
other four.

1330
01:29:14,160 --> 01:29:16,600
I have to confess, I I can never
remember.

1331
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:20,160
And in.
Elementary, it'll be embedded,

1332
01:29:20,160 --> 01:29:22,560
embodied in acting, and
extended.

1333
01:29:23,080 --> 01:29:26,480
Yes, yes, yes, we got them all
there, haven't we?

1334
01:29:26,480 --> 01:29:31,160
Yes, yeah perhaps the extended
one is is sort of the exception

1335
01:29:31,160 --> 01:29:34,080
that and the all the others I
think are common sensical.

1336
01:29:35,040 --> 01:29:38,640
But the extended you know that
that is that that's much more

1337
01:29:39,280 --> 01:29:42,200
Andy Clark designer environment
sort of thing which you know

1338
01:29:43,120 --> 01:29:46,160
does does my brain get into my
mailbar phone at which point do

1339
01:29:46,160 --> 01:29:49,800
I stop And that's that's an
interesting issue which again

1340
01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:52,760
speaks to I would imagine the
issues you discussed with Mike

1341
01:29:52,960 --> 01:29:56,520
Levin.
You know, you know it's in terms

1342
01:29:56,520 --> 01:30:00,440
of, you know what point do you
draw the boundary between a self

1343
01:30:00,440 --> 01:30:03,040
organising multicellular system
and you know it's.

1344
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:06,400
That computational boundary of
itself, which, well, I think

1345
01:30:06,400 --> 01:30:09,040
this is the perfect time to go
into that, that segment.

1346
01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:11,600
I thought a nice way to conclude
this conversation would be to

1347
01:30:11,600 --> 01:30:14,520
tie into some of the other
people you've worked with while

1348
01:30:14,520 --> 01:30:15,840
discussing some of the
differences.

1349
01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:19,720
And that'll open me up in my
future discussions with them to

1350
01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:22,360
come back to these conversations
and then we can continuously

1351
01:30:22,360 --> 01:30:25,960
have this loop, these strange
loops, says Douglas Hofstadter

1352
01:30:26,160 --> 01:30:28,680
once mentioned.
We can just continuously talk

1353
01:30:28,680 --> 01:30:31,920
about it and build upon it.
Mark Solms, Let's talk about it.

1354
01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:35,720
He now has what is known as the
Fault Uncertainty principle.

1355
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:38,960
He talks about dreams, how
dreams relate to consciousness.

1356
01:30:39,520 --> 01:30:42,920
How does your work converge with
his and where does it diverge if

1357
01:30:42,920 --> 01:30:46,760
it does?
Again, I'm afraid you're going

1358
01:30:46,760 --> 01:30:48,600
to have.
You're going to have problems

1359
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:51,600
finding points of Divergent.
I know.

1360
01:30:52,760 --> 01:30:57,840
So yeah, Mark, Mark's 1/2
friend, half mentor.

1361
01:31:00,160 --> 01:31:05,400
I I have a very friendly
relation with him but I very

1362
01:31:05,400 --> 01:31:08,120
seldom see him.
But because he travels so much

1363
01:31:08,120 --> 01:31:15,080
and he and he's so prolific, but
you know for me he's the person

1364
01:31:15,080 --> 01:31:20,320
that introduced me is in
conjunction with Robin Carhartt

1365
01:31:20,320 --> 01:31:23,120
Harris with with his original
work on sort of Freudian free

1366
01:31:23,120 --> 01:31:24,960
energy.
But in terms of neuropsych

1367
01:31:24,960 --> 01:31:30,600
analysis and the the really
neuropsychologically grounded

1368
01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:34,760
and biologically grounded
aspects of psych analysis and

1369
01:31:34,760 --> 01:31:39,240
how that was informed by as you
mentioned dreaming for example,

1370
01:31:40,200 --> 01:31:44,040
but also generically more sort
of conscious research.

1371
01:31:44,160 --> 01:31:47,280
You know, I I owe a lot to Mark
Zones.

1372
01:31:48,520 --> 01:31:51,800
He in again he's another brother
in arms.

1373
01:31:51,880 --> 01:31:54,440
So he in the in the
neuropsychoanalysis sort of

1374
01:31:54,440 --> 01:32:00,800
Freud and that kind of
biologically and therapeutically

1375
01:32:00,800 --> 01:32:03,080
informed kind of conscious
research.

1376
01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:07,760
You know, I would regard him as
the other person telling that

1377
01:32:07,760 --> 01:32:11,320
kind of story.
Concretely the felt uncertainty

1378
01:32:11,320 --> 01:32:13,480
just is the precision we were
talking about before.

1379
01:32:14,480 --> 01:32:19,440
His focus is exactly on the
cells of origin of those

1380
01:32:19,680 --> 01:32:22,920
multiple projection systems that
we were rehearsing before as a

1381
01:32:22,920 --> 01:32:27,560
root of all evil in Parkinson's
disease, through to possibly

1382
01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:34,640
autism.
So, so he's, you know his story

1383
01:32:35,080 --> 01:32:39,800
has a particular flavour because
you're it's now reading the the

1384
01:32:41,040 --> 01:32:45,680
the this particular form of
precision control or precision

1385
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:50,520
engineered, precision engineered
message passing in the brain.

1386
01:32:50,520 --> 01:32:55,080
That's an Andy Clark phrase.
But he's he's now really

1387
01:32:55,080 --> 01:33:00,840
drilling down on that and the
way in which he is doing that I

1388
01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:05,600
think has you know a lot of
potential for handshaking with

1389
01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:08,760
the philosophy itself.
I don't think here particularly

1390
01:33:08,960 --> 01:33:13,640
the the work of people like
Thomas Metzinger who is

1391
01:33:13,640 --> 01:33:15,840
developing another perspective,
you know, other perspectives,

1392
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:17,480
but.
Thomas is actually one of the

1393
01:33:17,480 --> 01:33:21,000
pupils whose names I've got on
this on this list of HDL ski as

1394
01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:23,400
well.
All right, It's not.

1395
01:33:24,080 --> 01:33:25,480
Too many.
Don't worry, it's just 10.

1396
01:33:27,440 --> 01:33:30,960
We'll probably do Thomas and and
Mark at the same time.

1397
01:33:31,960 --> 01:33:35,800
So the, you know, the reason I
mentioned Thomas metzing is just

1398
01:33:35,800 --> 01:33:43,960
that there's this notion of
phenomenal experience resting

1399
01:33:43,960 --> 01:33:50,440
upon the ability to modulate
your synapses, which means that

1400
01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:55,840
the source which which can be
read as a kind of mental action,

1401
01:33:55,840 --> 01:33:58,960
which, for example, attention,
well, you know, you need to have

1402
01:33:58,960 --> 01:34:03,040
these attentional or sensory
attenuation, physiological or

1403
01:34:03,040 --> 01:34:07,400
psychological mechanisms in
order to dissolve phenomenal

1404
01:34:07,400 --> 01:34:09,240
transparency.
So that I know I'm looking at

1405
01:34:09,240 --> 01:34:12,240
something and it's me looking at
something, you know.

1406
01:34:12,480 --> 01:34:16,560
So is this an objective or is
this a first person or is it

1407
01:34:16,720 --> 01:34:20,520
indeed can I even have zero
person sort of you know, non

1408
01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:22,960
dual kind of you know,
experiences.

1409
01:34:23,680 --> 01:34:27,720
But all of these questions rest
upon the mechanisms that that

1410
01:34:28,920 --> 01:34:35,680
underwrite the ability to
modulate via this precision

1411
01:34:35,680 --> 01:34:41,680
control the belief updating and
the sense making at some part of

1412
01:34:41,680 --> 01:34:45,160
your of your deep neural
neuronal network.

1413
01:34:45,880 --> 01:34:52,440
So what Mark is saying is that
the the very feeling read as in

1414
01:34:52,440 --> 01:34:56,320
a phonological sense.
So it's not talking about the

1415
01:34:56,480 --> 01:34:58,960
feelings in a folk psychological
sense.

1416
01:34:59,440 --> 01:35:02,800
And Mark is an expert on this,
and you know he was in terms of

1417
01:35:02,800 --> 01:35:09,840
his work with and the like.
He knows all about the basic,

1418
01:35:10,040 --> 01:35:14,320
the basics of emotions.
But he's using feelings in a

1419
01:35:14,360 --> 01:35:21,240
very fundamental experiential
sense that the actual feeling is

1420
01:35:21,240 --> 01:35:29,240
only afforded by the affording
of a precision to various

1421
01:35:29,280 --> 01:35:32,480
messages or information
processing.

1422
01:35:32,760 --> 01:35:35,880
So that that that I think it's a
lovely phrase, that notion of

1423
01:35:35,880 --> 01:35:38,280
felt uncertainty.
So uncertainty is just the

1424
01:35:38,280 --> 01:35:41,040
converse of precision.
So you could, have, could have,

1425
01:35:41,040 --> 01:35:45,600
could have called it precision,
felt precision or experienced

1426
01:35:45,600 --> 01:35:48,520
precision.
Felt uncertainty is, you know,

1427
01:35:48,520 --> 01:35:52,800
very beautiful.
I I I value that perspective.

1428
01:35:52,800 --> 01:35:57,320
Not just because it is actually
deeply grounded in

1429
01:35:57,320 --> 01:36:00,560
neuropsychology and neurobiology
and a welfare clinical

1430
01:36:00,560 --> 01:36:06,200
experience in people who have
abnormal no abnormal experiences

1431
01:36:06,200 --> 01:36:10,000
and altered states of
consciousness, but also because

1432
01:36:10,000 --> 01:36:14,320
it is exactly what you would be
looking for if you were just a

1433
01:36:14,320 --> 01:36:17,640
mathematician applying the
principles of Bayesian filtering

1434
01:36:17,880 --> 01:36:22,000
to a brain, for example.
Yeah, no, it's it's it's

1435
01:36:22,000 --> 01:36:23,920
incredible.
I mean I think it was Thomas

1436
01:36:23,920 --> 01:36:26,040
Nagel.
He was giving a speech and Mark

1437
01:36:26,040 --> 01:36:29,240
was telling me the story about
how he was on stage and Thomas

1438
01:36:29,240 --> 01:36:31,800
mentioned you know what he
thinks this guy Mark is on to

1439
01:36:31,800 --> 01:36:35,320
something and and to and to Mark
that was such high praise.

1440
01:36:35,360 --> 01:36:38,640
He he found that he he was so
honoured to be mentioned by

1441
01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:41,680
Thomas Nagel, this, this
infamous philosopher really just

1442
01:36:41,680 --> 01:36:45,240
bringing him up at this at at
one of the conferences that

1443
01:36:45,240 --> 01:36:46,320
happened.
I think it was in Boston,

1444
01:36:46,320 --> 01:36:49,760
actually.
No, I haven't heard that story.

1445
01:36:51,040 --> 01:36:52,240
Yeah.
So Mark, tell me about that.

1446
01:36:52,240 --> 01:36:55,320
In USA he was he felt very
honoured because obviously when

1447
01:36:55,320 --> 01:36:59,160
he brought up the fact that the
the source of consciousness, the

1448
01:36:59,160 --> 01:37:02,480
hidden spring as we might talk
about it is, is within the

1449
01:37:02,480 --> 01:37:05,120
brainstem, he felt very
ostracized within the scientific

1450
01:37:05,120 --> 01:37:09,560
community and people really
believed he was really going far

1451
01:37:09,560 --> 01:37:10,920
too.
He's going too far.

1452
01:37:11,160 --> 01:37:13,400
So for him to get this sort of
recognition, it meant a lot to

1453
01:37:13,400 --> 01:37:15,000
him.
And I'm happy for him as well

1454
01:37:15,120 --> 01:37:16,400
because he's also meant it to
me.

1455
01:37:16,400 --> 01:37:19,320
He was part of when I wrote my
dissertation, he he really

1456
01:37:19,320 --> 01:37:23,920
helped me and gave me lots of
comments and I mean he lives not

1457
01:37:23,920 --> 01:37:26,000
too far from where I am in South
Africa.

1458
01:37:26,040 --> 01:37:30,600
So a lot of respect for work and
I appreciate his work very much.

1459
01:37:31,320 --> 01:37:32,800
That's good.
It's nice for you to say that

1460
01:37:32,840 --> 01:37:36,720
out loud on a podcast.
And again, from my point of

1461
01:37:36,720 --> 01:37:41,680
view, he's a real player.
Yeah, I mean I do.

1462
01:37:41,720 --> 01:37:44,640
Yes, I do get the sense he gets
cross when people don't see that

1463
01:37:44,760 --> 01:37:52,440
you know, this or they won't
relax this cortex cortical

1464
01:37:52,440 --> 01:37:59,000
centric view of consciousness.
But I who in my world he is the

1465
01:37:59,000 --> 01:38:02,560
main player.
So you know it's so I don't get

1466
01:38:02,560 --> 01:38:06,360
this.
I don't have his frustration or

1467
01:38:06,360 --> 01:38:10,400
paranoia, So from my point of
view, he's the person, you know,

1468
01:38:10,600 --> 01:38:13,520
he's talking about this in a
very sensible way, in a way that

1469
01:38:13,520 --> 01:38:18,480
makes sense to patients, but
also, you know, the physics of

1470
01:38:18,480 --> 01:38:22,160
sentence that people like me
have to deal with, I think.

1471
01:38:22,520 --> 01:38:25,400
There's a level of nuance you
have to really to understand

1472
01:38:25,400 --> 01:38:27,920
where he's coming from.
I think if someone just says

1473
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:31,560
he's talking about the ancient
brain, it's easy to make he

1474
01:38:31,760 --> 01:38:34,200
prejudice judgments about this.
You know, it's easy for you to

1475
01:38:34,200 --> 01:38:35,760
just think, OK, he's just going
too far.

1476
01:38:36,280 --> 01:38:39,440
So I think there's a lot of
nuance and he's just tiptoeing a

1477
01:38:39,440 --> 01:38:42,240
line that people just don't
really know enough to comment on

1478
01:38:42,400 --> 01:38:44,920
appropriately.
But it's my perspective.

1479
01:38:45,560 --> 01:38:48,320
Well, I hope he watches this.
I'll send him a link.

1480
01:38:48,320 --> 01:38:51,760
I'll send the the next person
Carl is.

1481
01:38:51,760 --> 01:38:53,920
I mean, you've spoken about him
already, but Michael?

1482
01:38:53,920 --> 01:38:57,640
Evan, you actually got me into
that tangent.

1483
01:38:57,640 --> 01:39:00,840
As I told you when we went down,
he calls it the field of diverse

1484
01:39:01,000 --> 01:39:03,800
intelligence.
This group of thinkers, you,

1485
01:39:04,280 --> 01:39:07,040
Chris Frith, Mark Solms, all of
you guys coming at this in a

1486
01:39:07,040 --> 01:39:09,560
very different way.
How do you guys link and where

1487
01:39:09,560 --> 01:39:13,240
do you guys diverge if you do?
Well, I I mean, I don't think I

1488
01:39:13,240 --> 01:39:16,560
can add very much to your your
description or his description

1489
01:39:16,560 --> 01:39:18,120
that, I mean that's absolutely
right.

1490
01:39:19,600 --> 01:39:22,480
It does remind me of something
that Chris Fields once said,

1491
01:39:22,480 --> 01:39:25,880
which is our job is to dissolve
those bright lines between

1492
01:39:26,800 --> 01:39:30,600
biology, physics and psychology.
And I would also add philosophy

1493
01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:33,640
in there.
Nowadays, you know, it's all the

1494
01:39:33,640 --> 01:39:36,960
same thing.
And so you know that that

1495
01:39:36,960 --> 01:39:41,880
there's multiple perspectives
and that diversity I think is

1496
01:39:41,880 --> 01:39:45,160
just an expression of that that
that's the job to be done which

1497
01:39:45,400 --> 01:39:48,240
we should not be considered as
coming from diverse fields.

1498
01:39:48,240 --> 01:39:51,200
We're all doing exactly and the
same thing, using exactly the

1499
01:39:51,200 --> 01:39:54,880
same ideas in different
experimental models or in

1500
01:39:54,880 --> 01:39:57,040
different paradigms, and
possibly using different kinds,

1501
01:39:57,040 --> 01:40:00,000
different words.
But in essence, we should knock

1502
01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:03,200
each other's corners off and and
just be focusing on the, you

1503
01:40:03,200 --> 01:40:06,240
know, the underlying, the
underlying principles of you

1504
01:40:06,240 --> 01:40:11,080
know, as a biologist, biotic
self organization or basal

1505
01:40:11,120 --> 01:40:13,200
cognition or distributed
intelligence.

1506
01:40:15,320 --> 01:40:18,600
Mork and computation you're
having me what you want to frame

1507
01:40:18,600 --> 01:40:21,600
it.
You know Chris would would say

1508
01:40:21,600 --> 01:40:24,400
yeah this is just an expression
of scale invariant quantum

1509
01:40:24,400 --> 01:40:27,400
information theory.
Mark would say yeah this is just

1510
01:40:27,480 --> 01:40:32,200
and so on and so forth.
It's so I, you know I I I

1511
01:40:32,200 --> 01:40:34,920
couldn't add very much to it.
You know it's just interesting

1512
01:40:34,920 --> 01:40:37,440
to reflect how we all got
together.

1513
01:40:39,560 --> 01:40:43,840
Yes, it is interesting.
What is funny is that and this

1514
01:40:43,840 --> 01:40:48,840
is not a sequential thing.
So I didn't know that Mark and

1515
01:40:48,840 --> 01:40:54,200
Mike were in correspondence and
I'm not, I don't know whether

1516
01:40:54,200 --> 01:40:58,160
Mike knew that Mark and I have,
you know, quite a deep history,

1517
01:40:59,520 --> 01:41:02,200
you know, sparse, rich, but
deep.

1518
01:41:03,800 --> 01:41:07,320
So it is interesting all these
like minded people suddenly with

1519
01:41:07,320 --> 01:41:11,520
the same kinds of aspirations
already knew each other, you

1520
01:41:11,600 --> 01:41:14,360
know in a sort of decentralized
and Federated way of sort of

1521
01:41:15,040 --> 01:41:17,880
making connections and sharing
views which we do.

1522
01:41:17,960 --> 01:41:20,320
You know there isn't a week that
goes past, right?

1523
01:41:20,320 --> 01:41:24,040
You get an e-mail from one of
them, usually Mike, in fact the

1524
01:41:26,080 --> 01:41:28,800
most energetic and.
I'm chatting to Mike again next

1525
01:41:28,800 --> 01:41:31,560
week, so if there's any
questions you have for him just

1526
01:41:31,560 --> 01:41:34,920
let me know, I'll, I'll ask.
Him When?

1527
01:41:34,920 --> 01:41:38,160
When does he sleep?
I wonder, I wonder.

1528
01:41:39,200 --> 01:41:40,840
I'm chatting to him next week.
There's so many things we're

1529
01:41:40,840 --> 01:41:44,560
going to chat about but honestly
we it's it's a great when I

1530
01:41:44,560 --> 01:41:47,840
chatted to him last, I think it
was a couple months ago, I

1531
01:41:47,840 --> 01:41:49,960
called it.
It's almost like The Avengers of

1532
01:41:49,960 --> 01:41:53,480
mind coming together.
It's this is like you guys are

1533
01:41:53,480 --> 01:41:58,200
The Avengers of neuroscience
psychology philosophy biology

1534
01:41:58,200 --> 01:42:00,920
just all coming together and
this is so epic for us to watch

1535
01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:04,200
as outsiders and and and me
personally talking to you guys

1536
01:42:04,200 --> 01:42:07,520
it's it's it's such a privilege
to be part of it's in in a very

1537
01:42:08,400 --> 01:42:13,960
non direct manner well.
It's nice of you to say that.

1538
01:42:13,960 --> 01:42:16,400
Yeah.
No, I I love being part of this

1539
01:42:16,400 --> 01:42:21,400
this sort of extended family
this this this this circle.

1540
01:42:23,040 --> 01:42:25,800
You know, in fact in probably at
the time you're you're going to

1541
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:30,000
be speaking to Mike.
I, I, I, he, he wants to talk to

1542
01:42:30,000 --> 01:42:34,040
me about he's, he's found a new
a new sorting algorithm that has

1543
01:42:34,200 --> 01:42:36,080
a kind of intelligence he wants
to talk about.

1544
01:42:36,080 --> 01:42:39,800
So he's always sending me little
puzzles and then Mark and I try

1545
01:42:39,800 --> 01:42:46,000
to naturalise it from either a
maths point of view or a a neuro

1546
01:42:46,000 --> 01:42:50,360
psych point of view.
The the other names, I mean,

1547
01:42:50,360 --> 01:42:51,800
you've already touched them.
Chris Fields.

1548
01:42:51,800 --> 01:42:53,960
I've got on the list here.
Richard Watson.

1549
01:42:55,760 --> 01:42:59,680
Very Also converging, diverging,
but for the most part

1550
01:42:59,680 --> 01:43:03,560
converging.
Yes, yeah, so yeah, another

1551
01:43:03,560 --> 01:43:06,200
small world thing.
So Richard Watson is a friend of

1552
01:43:06,200 --> 01:43:09,720
Mike's, but also I have now
found out he's also a friend of

1553
01:43:10,440 --> 01:43:14,520
my machine learning friend Chris
Buckley at Sussex University.

1554
01:43:14,680 --> 01:43:19,080
Yeah, it's amazing how these
little small worlds keep

1555
01:43:19,840 --> 01:43:24,840
presenting themselves in, you
know, actually what should be

1556
01:43:26,040 --> 01:43:28,520
predictable, I guess, given our
common interests.

1557
01:43:28,720 --> 01:43:32,520
So I I don't think I've ever
personally spoken to to Richard,

1558
01:43:32,840 --> 01:43:36,600
but in the past three weeks I
have been in vicarious e-mail

1559
01:43:36,600 --> 01:43:39,760
conversation with it via two
completely independent dual root

1560
01:43:39,760 --> 01:43:40,960
connection.
Yeah.

1561
01:43:40,960 --> 01:43:46,400
Who who else was that?
So Richard and Chris what?

1562
01:43:46,800 --> 01:43:48,960
Chris Fields.
Oh, yes, yeah.

1563
01:43:49,440 --> 01:43:50,960
Yeah.
I know he's, he's brilliant.

1564
01:43:50,960 --> 01:43:52,120
Yeah.
Yeah, so.

1565
01:43:53,160 --> 01:43:55,600
Yeah, no, it's it's watching you
guys from the outside.

1566
01:43:55,760 --> 01:43:57,920
It's amazing.
You've also mentioned the other

1567
01:43:57,920 --> 01:44:00,400
name of my list, Jerry Edelman.
You've already spoken about him.

1568
01:44:00,560 --> 01:44:04,800
Anything you want to add?
Not at this stage in the

1569
01:44:04,800 --> 01:44:07,840
interview.
That would be.

1570
01:44:07,840 --> 01:44:10,760
That would be another just for
your entertainment.

1571
01:44:10,760 --> 01:44:15,080
So.
So Daniel Friedman and

1572
01:44:15,440 --> 01:44:18,000
colleagues at the Active
Inference Institute actually had

1573
01:44:18,040 --> 01:44:25,200
a whole little session devoted
to the mentees of Jerry Edelman.

1574
01:44:26,560 --> 01:44:31,200
And for me the most interesting
aspect of that was the people

1575
01:44:31,200 --> 01:44:34,320
who declined to accept the
invitation to speak about

1576
01:44:34,400 --> 01:44:38,480
working with Jerry Edelman.
But you can watch a whole 3, two

1577
01:44:38,480 --> 01:44:43,040
or three hour YouTube recorded
live stream on the experiences

1578
01:44:43,040 --> 01:44:46,440
of at least three of us working
with Jerry Edelman.

1579
01:44:46,920 --> 01:44:49,640
The person you want to get to
talk about that, though, is Reed

1580
01:44:49,640 --> 01:44:54,840
Montague.
So Reed Montague of So Reid

1581
01:44:55,840 --> 01:45:01,360
basically sort of not tutored
but sort of teamed up with

1582
01:45:01,360 --> 01:45:06,200
Wolfram Schultz with the help of
Peter Diane in the yeah, it

1583
01:45:07,080 --> 01:45:14,520
would be the late 90s to put the
an interpretation on Wolfram's

1584
01:45:15,320 --> 01:45:22,480
discovery of dopamine discharges
that spoke to a certain kind of

1585
01:45:22,480 --> 01:45:25,640
modelling temporal difference
modelling, which subsequently

1586
01:45:25,640 --> 01:45:29,200
became the reward prediction
error story celebrated in

1587
01:45:29,280 --> 01:45:33,880
neuroimaging.
And that dopamine was crucially

1588
01:45:35,520 --> 01:45:38,760
or complicit in forming these
reward prediction errors.

1589
01:45:38,920 --> 01:45:42,840
So very famous story all started
basically with actually you

1590
01:45:42,840 --> 01:45:48,280
could argue with Jerry Edelman
and Reed Montague but then the

1591
01:45:48,280 --> 01:45:51,960
deliciously dark stories about
Jerry Edelman will be best

1592
01:45:51,960 --> 01:45:55,280
convinced by Reed Montague.
It's got some great stories

1593
01:45:55,520 --> 01:45:58,400
because Reed had to escape from
Jerry Edelman to go and work

1594
01:45:58,400 --> 01:46:05,720
with Terry Sonoski at the Sulk
and and pursue his his work.

1595
01:46:06,320 --> 01:46:10,480
And in that pursuing what arose
from that was the reward

1596
01:46:10,480 --> 01:46:13,000
prediction error story.
First articulate, I think in

1597
01:46:13,000 --> 01:46:17,120
Bees with Octamine that that
subsequently then empirically

1598
01:46:17,120 --> 01:46:20,960
endorsed by Wolfram Schultz's
work.

1599
01:46:21,400 --> 01:46:31,440
And just so just to close the
speak with small world story, I

1600
01:46:31,440 --> 01:46:36,160
was actually Reed's replacement
when I was seconded from my

1601
01:46:36,160 --> 01:46:42,800
brain imaging job to Jerry
Edelman at a time when people

1602
01:46:43,480 --> 01:46:47,040
Jerry Edmond was friendly with
my mentors back back in in

1603
01:46:47,040 --> 01:46:50,280
London as a as a young man.
But if you want to get good

1604
01:46:50,280 --> 01:46:53,920
Jerry Edelman's stories, ask
Green Montague and let me know.

1605
01:46:53,920 --> 01:46:55,800
I love hearing the way he talks
about it.

1606
01:46:56,200 --> 01:46:57,520
I've taken notes, I've taken
notes.

1607
01:46:57,520 --> 01:47:00,200
The last two names I've got here
got a call before we close off

1608
01:47:00,560 --> 01:47:04,080
is Anil Seth and Daniel Dennett.
Right.

1609
01:47:04,280 --> 01:47:07,920
Well, Anil is another close
friend and colleague who just

1610
01:47:07,920 --> 01:47:14,040
works down in, you know, in
Sussex University and of course

1611
01:47:14,120 --> 01:47:19,520
works next door to Andy Clark.
But in fact, Neil was so over

1612
01:47:19,520 --> 01:47:21,120
the moon.
I've told the story lots of

1613
01:47:21,120 --> 01:47:22,560
times.
I'm sure Neil has as well, but

1614
01:47:22,560 --> 01:47:28,320
we were all sequestered on a
Greek island during a Medicaid,

1615
01:47:28,320 --> 01:47:31,240
which is a sort of Mediterranean
hurricane, and this is a real

1616
01:47:31,240 --> 01:47:34,840
hurricane.
So we're sitting there in a

1617
01:47:34,840 --> 01:47:39,400
Mathematics of Consciousness
symposium with proponents of

1618
01:47:39,400 --> 01:47:43,400
Integrated Information Theory
and Jacob Howie and colleagues

1619
01:47:43,400 --> 01:47:49,240
from Melbourne with Anil.
I've heard the story, but but

1620
01:47:49,280 --> 01:47:51,280
please tell it because I think
it's such a beautiful story.

1621
01:47:51,280 --> 01:47:55,640
I'm excited.
To hear which there are lots of

1622
01:47:55,640 --> 01:47:58,000
stories from that.
Meeting about Anil.

1623
01:47:58,000 --> 01:48:01,240
Finally getting Andy to join the
team.

1624
01:48:01,240 --> 01:48:03,840
Now I know the story, but I'm
excited to just for the

1625
01:48:03,840 --> 01:48:05,080
audience.
Please go ahead.

1626
01:48:05,080 --> 01:48:07,160
Right.
Well, you've given away the

1627
01:48:07,160 --> 01:48:12,680
punchline now.
So Neil was was entertaining as

1628
01:48:12,880 --> 01:48:16,640
you know, by playing the piano
in the middle of this hurricane

1629
01:48:16,680 --> 01:48:18,920
outside.
I repeated literally the the

1630
01:48:18,920 --> 01:48:22,160
waves were crashing up, so I
just washed away all the beach

1631
01:48:22,160 --> 01:48:24,400
furniture.
You just couldn't go outside.

1632
01:48:24,400 --> 01:48:27,360
It was really quite frightening.
But we were in the sort of

1633
01:48:28,640 --> 01:48:33,600
enclosure with sort of like
foyer overlooking the the little

1634
01:48:33,600 --> 01:48:39,600
Cliff and the beach and it's
surreal atmosphere, hard days

1635
01:48:39,600 --> 01:48:44,640
thinking little bit drunk anneal
in the in the fading light sort

1636
01:48:44,640 --> 01:48:47,520
of playing the piano.
Somebody got this phone call

1637
01:48:47,640 --> 01:48:51,040
which as you say was
confirmation from the University

1638
01:48:51,040 --> 01:48:56,800
of Sussex that they had actually
secured and contracted a head

1639
01:48:56,800 --> 01:48:59,880
hunting of Andy Clark from
Edinburgh down to Sussex.

1640
01:49:00,160 --> 01:49:05,320
So you know Anil was so
delighted and I suspect so was

1641
01:49:05,320 --> 01:49:09,120
Andy Clark who I know, I mean he
loved Edinburgh but Andy Clark

1642
01:49:09,120 --> 01:49:10,880
just wanted to get back to
surfing.

1643
01:49:10,880 --> 01:49:16,480
So just try and get back to to,
you know, a place where.

1644
01:49:16,600 --> 01:49:19,440
Because surfing.
Now he and Alexa, his wife, did

1645
01:49:19,440 --> 01:49:21,440
a lot of boat stuff in
Edinburgh.

1646
01:49:21,440 --> 01:49:24,720
But it's not surfing boat stuff.
You have to be really down in

1647
01:49:24,720 --> 01:49:28,040
Brighton to do proper surfing.
So both of them were well,

1648
01:49:28,040 --> 01:49:31,760
happy.
And then what are?

1649
01:49:32,040 --> 01:49:34,840
Those What are those drunken
conversations between you guys

1650
01:49:34,840 --> 01:49:37,360
when you're all together, these
philosophers in neuroscience,

1651
01:49:37,680 --> 01:49:39,360
What is that like?
I would love to be a family on

1652
01:49:39,360 --> 01:49:44,600
the wall.
Yes, well, you know.

1653
01:49:45,560 --> 01:49:48,480
Do you guys debate, or do you
find yourself agreeing more more

1654
01:49:48,480 --> 01:49:52,000
often than not?
Well, those particular people,

1655
01:49:52,000 --> 01:49:57,760
Andy Clark and Anil and Jakob
and myself, inevitably find

1656
01:49:57,760 --> 01:50:00,600
ourselves agreeing.
If you want an honest answer, we

1657
01:50:00,600 --> 01:50:03,280
have a little bitch about people
we don't agree with.

1658
01:50:03,640 --> 01:50:08,440
That's that's for me and my
friends, I'm afraid.

1659
01:50:09,160 --> 01:50:12,400
OK, last, the last one on the
list here is Daniel Dennett.

1660
01:50:13,240 --> 01:50:17,120
I had to.
Put I don't know Daniel Dennett

1661
01:50:17,520 --> 01:50:20,880
other than vicariously.
I met him on a few occasions via

1662
01:50:22,160 --> 01:50:26,680
vicariously through, well, on a
few occasions with Andy Clark.

1663
01:50:28,080 --> 01:50:33,560
But, you know, I know him
obviously by reputation, Again,

1664
01:50:34,760 --> 01:50:37,960
probably not like Stephen
Grossberg, but in the sense that

1665
01:50:38,160 --> 01:50:42,680
intelligent has great acclaim.
But like Stephen Grossberg, I

1666
01:50:42,680 --> 01:50:48,080
think his ideas are enduring and
insightful and sometimes until

1667
01:50:48,080 --> 01:50:52,160
they are quickly accepted, you
know revolutionary literally in

1668
01:50:52,160 --> 01:50:54,760
terms of turning people around
and making them change their

1669
01:50:54,760 --> 01:50:59,160
mind.
And much of the the Bayesian

1670
01:50:59,160 --> 01:51:04,720
mechanics and the the I, the
story that I would tell as a

1671
01:51:04,720 --> 01:51:08,440
physicist and a
neurophysiologist and the story

1672
01:51:08,440 --> 01:51:11,560
that Andy tells in terms of
predictive processing and the

1673
01:51:11,560 --> 01:51:16,960
like are very sympathetic I
think to to Daniel Dennett's

1674
01:51:17,640 --> 01:51:20,160
formulation.
So I I would imagine he's going

1675
01:51:20,160 --> 01:51:23,640
to be one of the good and greats
of philosophy of of, of of this

1676
01:51:23,640 --> 01:51:25,880
century.
Well, I'm not quite sure where

1677
01:51:25,880 --> 01:51:28,840
we are now, but certainly the
past half, 50 years.

1678
01:51:29,160 --> 01:51:30,800
I agree with you.
I think I I agree.

1679
01:51:30,800 --> 01:51:33,600
I think so as well.
Cole, are there any people you

1680
01:51:33,600 --> 01:51:35,560
believe deserve sort of
honourable mentions?

1681
01:51:35,560 --> 01:51:38,080
I just, I made a general list of
people I know you've worked

1682
01:51:38,080 --> 01:51:39,440
with.
I added Daniel because I know

1683
01:51:39,440 --> 01:51:42,240
you guys haven't, but I was just
curious people whose work you

1684
01:51:42,240 --> 01:51:44,040
think we should look out for,
people you think I should

1685
01:51:44,040 --> 01:51:47,600
possibly interview.
Any minds that come to mind that

1686
01:51:47,600 --> 01:51:51,920
you think is bringing, they're
bringing this field even further

1687
01:51:51,920 --> 01:51:56,640
than you wish it could go?
There are lots of people come to

1688
01:51:56,640 --> 01:51:58,840
mind, and the dangers, of
course, and I, the people I

1689
01:51:58,840 --> 01:52:01,160
don't mention, are going to get
very, very cross with me.

1690
01:52:03,280 --> 01:52:08,880
So, you know, I think in terms
of talking in the way that we

1691
01:52:08,880 --> 01:52:13,160
have been talking, you probably
want to talk to people who have

1692
01:52:13,160 --> 01:52:16,040
a philosophical training because
I think they, they have the art

1693
01:52:16,040 --> 01:52:19,920
of being able to express things
in an accessible way, which

1694
01:52:19,920 --> 01:52:21,800
sometimes people like me do not
have.

1695
01:52:23,400 --> 01:52:26,600
But you want to find
philosophers who are also

1696
01:52:26,600 --> 01:52:30,400
informed formally,
mathematically or biologically.

1697
01:52:31,000 --> 01:52:34,720
I'm just thinking about sort of
young people out there who are

1698
01:52:34,720 --> 01:52:38,960
part of this more extended
circle but also have their own

1699
01:52:38,960 --> 01:52:40,720
particular thing to bring to the
table.

1700
01:52:41,120 --> 01:52:45,640
People like Maxwell Ramstad
would be, would be one person

1701
01:52:45,640 --> 01:52:47,880
who you, you might enjoy talking
to.

1702
01:52:47,960 --> 01:52:50,160
I'm just thinking about sort of
young people.

1703
01:52:50,360 --> 01:52:53,480
I had a lovely session with
Thomas Metzing a couple of weeks

1704
01:52:53,480 --> 01:52:56,760
ago and he has some lots of
really interesting things to say

1705
01:52:56,760 --> 01:53:01,360
about his current project and
and ethological experiences and

1706
01:53:01,360 --> 01:53:04,120
the like.
But there's another very young

1707
01:53:04,120 --> 01:53:06,760
person and so these are not good
and great.

1708
01:53:06,840 --> 01:53:09,400
These are people who are just
starting and need a bit of

1709
01:53:09,680 --> 01:53:13,920
encouragement.
So bin Lars son Vin Smith, I

1710
01:53:13,920 --> 01:53:15,280
think you might enjoy talking to
him.

1711
01:53:15,280 --> 01:53:20,680
It's just that he comes to mind
because his work is all about

1712
01:53:20,680 --> 01:53:24,880
consciousness and it's all about
precision control and it's a

1713
01:53:24,880 --> 01:53:30,200
very nice link between Thomas
Metzinger and Mark Sones and

1714
01:53:30,280 --> 01:53:34,960
Maxwell as as the the Well,
Thomas Metzger is clearly not

1715
01:53:35,080 --> 01:53:42,720
the the new generation but
anyway in this field, yeah, but

1716
01:53:42,720 --> 01:53:45,560
I could go on.
So please forgive me if I've

1717
01:53:45,640 --> 01:53:48,240
because there'll be 100 other
people who should have.

1718
01:53:49,880 --> 01:53:52,480
You've spoken to Yakka Powy.
No, not yet.

1719
01:53:53,400 --> 01:53:54,080
No.
Oh, right.

1720
01:53:54,080 --> 01:53:56,440
No.
I mean he would be the he would

1721
01:53:56,440 --> 01:54:01,920
be another brother in arms and
he would give you another side

1722
01:54:01,920 --> 01:54:05,640
of the coin, another perspective
from Andy Clark, for example.

1723
01:54:05,640 --> 01:54:11,200
So I may be joyfully and
jokingly.

1724
01:54:11,680 --> 01:54:15,040
I think that Andy and Jakob are
in a race to write the most

1725
01:54:15,040 --> 01:54:16,640
recent book on predictive
processes.

1726
01:54:20,320 --> 01:54:24,440
So Jakob's got a new book in
preparation entitled Self

1727
01:54:24,440 --> 01:54:28,200
evidencing again speaking to
many of the themes.

1728
01:54:28,520 --> 01:54:34,680
And it was really Jakob's book,
the predictive mind, that

1729
01:54:34,680 --> 01:54:39,120
foreground in the importance of
felt uncertainty in using the

1730
01:54:39,120 --> 01:54:41,360
semantics of precision in
predictive processing,

1731
01:54:41,360 --> 01:54:42,760
precision, major prediction
errors.

1732
01:54:43,120 --> 01:54:46,600
So you know, he would be an
obvious person of a quite senior

1733
01:54:46,600 --> 01:54:49,040
sort.
He is in, yeah, he's, he's in

1734
01:54:49,040 --> 01:54:52,760
Australia, in Melbourne at the
present time and he, you know,

1735
01:54:52,800 --> 01:54:54,120
he'll have lots of favorite
people.

1736
01:54:55,080 --> 01:54:57,520
Yeah, I'm going to stop there
because otherwise, you know.

1737
01:54:57,720 --> 01:54:59,080
I I.
Just I think they have to go.

1738
01:54:59,560 --> 01:55:01,800
India Now we meant to chat a
couple of months ago, but for

1739
01:55:01,800 --> 01:55:04,760
some reason I think one of one
of his emails went to my spam

1740
01:55:04,760 --> 01:55:07,640
folder.
I need to, I need to get back to

1741
01:55:07,640 --> 01:55:11,680
that conversation with him.
But look, Carl, as always, this

1742
01:55:11,720 --> 01:55:13,440
has been such an amazing
journey.

1743
01:55:13,960 --> 01:55:18,280
I continue to watch in in awe,
always inspired by you guys

1744
01:55:18,280 --> 01:55:20,720
work.
Please continue to, I mean

1745
01:55:20,720 --> 01:55:22,960
you're putting out close to 100
papers.

1746
01:55:22,960 --> 01:55:25,480
I know you're just saying you're
a part of it, but obviously to

1747
01:55:25,480 --> 01:55:28,560
just be a part of it you have to
still put in some effort and and

1748
01:55:28,560 --> 01:55:30,600
from our side we appreciate it.
Any final words?

1749
01:55:30,600 --> 01:55:33,240
Anything from your side you want
to say to the mind body solution

1750
01:55:33,240 --> 01:55:37,280
listeners?
Now, other than thank you,

1751
01:55:37,280 --> 01:55:40,840
you're a very gracious host and
and interviewer.

1752
01:55:41,600 --> 01:55:44,720
So my normal thing is I'm trying
to be recluse.

1753
01:55:44,720 --> 01:55:51,480
So I I just want to slide away
into into obscurity after this

1754
01:55:51,480 --> 01:55:53,120
very enjoyable conversation.
Thank you.

1755
01:55:53,640 --> 01:55:55,680
Thank you so much, Carl.
Have a great evening and I

1756
01:55:55,680 --> 01:55:57,520
appreciate our honour.
Thanks so much.