Jude Currivan: Is The Universe A Cosmic Hologram? The Holographic Principle & Infodynamics

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Hello.
Hi Jude.

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How are you?
I'm fine, Tev.

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How are you doing?
I'm great.

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I'm so excited for this
interview.

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I mean, I've been absorbing so
much of your information over

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the past couple of this past few
days and this last week.

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It's been amazing how how on
your side.

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Yeah, no it's it's great here.
I'm enjoying the summer.

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I'm sort of getting to a point
now with the end of this month.

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It's been so full on that I'm
really looking forward to taking

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an in breath hopefully for a
couple of months which means I

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there's a lot I'm feeling coming
in.

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So I really want to be open and
have the space to to really you

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know, appreciate that and try
and so have a sense of what it

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is all about.
I mean, I can imagine your work

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is is absolutely fascinating.
There's so many different topics

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we could discuss today.
I can only imagine the inundated

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emails you're probably receiving
from so many people who are keen

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to hear about your work, bless
you.

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Well, it's well, it's very busy
in a really good way.

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Because I do feel that with so
much flowing that you know now

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is the time and and people you
know are really needing to have

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some hope that's authentic.
To have some sense of a an

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underpinning and a framing to to
a sort of a healed worldview.

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You know, not a fragmented
perspective based on the old

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paradigm, but the but the
evidence based authenticity of

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something that can really, you
know, empower us to come

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together, you know, and because
that's the time, isn't it?

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No, no, for sure.
I mean, I'm great.

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I'm grateful that you've started
already because I mean, I love

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to just get started.
And at this point, I think the

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question I want to ask you, you
talk about this cosmic hologram

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jute and governed by
information, I think, let's

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explore this idea.
I mean, it's been around for

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many years.
It's been around for decades,

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Millennia in fact.
But only now do we see a growing

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body of evidence that supports
this idea.

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And I think it would be amazing
for the listeners and viewers to

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listen to this evidence and for
you to express yourself in a

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nice open platform where the
listeners and viewers can

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appreciate it.
And just by the way, the

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audience are generally very
technical for this Quadco.

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So go into as much detail as you
want.

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Don't shy away from the physics.
Yeah, just I'm curious, this

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cosmic hologram and everything
about it.

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I'm looking forward to this.
OK, well, there's probably a

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couple of convergent points to
be making here, but let's let's

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talk about the holographic
principle to start with, because

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that really, as you say, it's
been around for for a while now

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and the sort of very early
intimations of it really date

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back to David Bohm.
So we're talking about, you

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know, four if not 5 decades as a
as a sense of what this might

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mean.
But of course the the, the, the

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big move forward came when
researchers were looking into

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the thermodynamics of black
holes and people like Gerard to

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Hooft and Leonard Susskind and
Jacob Beckenstein and and

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others.
And the question really was what

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happens to the information
that's actually, you know,

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making up a massive * when at
the end of its life, its nuclear

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fuel runs out and it collapses.
And of course the collapse is so

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gravitationally powerful that it
actually collapses within an

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event horizon and therefore not
even light can escape.

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I know there's a nuance with
that, with the with Stephen,

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Stephen Hawking's work, but
essentially, you know, you,

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you're not even light can
escape.

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And so at the event horizon, you
suddenly get this blackness that

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we term a black hole.
And of course was the star

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collapses, A spherical star
collapses as a spherical black

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hole.
So the idea was, well, the it's

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the first of all is the
information lost.

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Because if it was lost, that
would blow quantum physics out

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the water, literally.
So there's a huge debate about

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firewalling and what's happening
all of that.

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But as time has moved on that
has more and more evidence has

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suggested that actually no, the
the the information is actually

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held at the event horizon.
But then the big question was

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well what is that information?
And when calculations were done

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that related it to the
thermodynamics of the of the

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black hole, it was realized that
the IT was the the information

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was proportional not to the
spherical volume of the black

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hole, but the surface area of
the event horizon.

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And then a few light bulbs went
off because that is very you

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know, you know reflective of
what happens when on on earth.

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We we create technologically
create a hologram, you know take

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a beam of light.
We split it in two-part of the

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beam is is focused on an object.
It's bounced off the object and

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it collects information in that
reflected light from the object.

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It then combines with the
initial beam to form A2

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dimensional pattern of
information that actually looks

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like an oil slick if you
actually look at one.

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At that point in its process, it
looks like an oil slick.

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But it's basically a wonderful
ability of our universe to be

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able to transform information
into waveforms and waveforms

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into information through Fourier
transforms.

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And this is absolutely critical
not just to our human made

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technological holograms, but
also how the holographic

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principle works at the universal
level, which we can come on to.

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But so essentially there was a
realization, you've got this

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two-dimensional informational
pattern and when you throw

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another beam of light through
it, IT projects what we call a

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hologram.
And the point of the hologram

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that IT projects is that the
whole is in every pixelation.

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So if we have a high definition
pixelation, then we you know all

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the the wholeness.
If it's an apple for example,

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you get miniscule apples
throughout the the whole

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hologram.
But taking this now to our

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universe, it was realized that
from black holes we could extend

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this what became known as the
holographic principle to the

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whole universe.
And we can go back into the

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evidence for this because there
is compelling evidence now at

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you know, all scales of
existence and many different

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fields of research.
But the sense is that the that

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the appearance of our universe,
the energy, matter, and

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space-time appearance of our
universe is not it's more

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fundamental nature.
But the appearance arises from

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this deeper realm of causation
as meaningful in formation.

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And I always hyphenize
information to to to sort of

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really emphasize its meaningful
nature.

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But that meaningful information
is actually accumulated on the

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boundary of what we call
space-time and then

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holographically manifested as
the appearance of our universe.

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So if we go back 13.8 billion
years to the very first moment

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of space-time not in a Big Bang,
we know it wasn't big.

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I mean, that was Fred Hall being
very facetious.

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But you know that the
implication of a bang, it

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wasn't, It was incredibly
fine-tuned and ordered.

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It began in its lowest
informational state.

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So as time has flowed forward
ever since because of that

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entropic flow began its lowest
informational state.

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As time has flowed forward and
space has expanded, that

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holographic principle, allied to
other laws of physics that we

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can come on to, has meant that
our universe has been able to

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undertake this evolutionary arc
from simplicity to ever greater

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levels of complexity,
experience, evolutionary

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potential, individuation,
self-awareness at those levels,

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Yeah, that's the story of our
universe.

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Because that first moment, not
of a Big Bang, but the first

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moment of a big breath and
ongoing big breath.

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And the reason that space has to
expand is because that is where

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the the accumulation of the
emergent evolutionary

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information is held.
So space didn't expand.

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There could not be more and more
and more and more information

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able to be expressed in its
evolutionary arc.

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And of course what happens is
the pixelation of the

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holographic boundary of our
universe, as Jacob Beckenstein

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understood, is pixelated at
Planck scale.

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So in that sense it's our
universe is is the reality of

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our universe comes into form at
the Planck scale which is a

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basic measures of space and time
and energy matter as a result

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and temperature.
And so it all hangs together.

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But that pixelation scale, that
Planck scale, pixelation at a

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spatial level is as small as to
a nucleus of a hydrogen atom as

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a hydrogen nuclei nucleuses to
the whole universe.

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It's 10 to the minus 35 meters.
It's trillions of trillions of

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times more minute than our best
high definition human holograms.

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And the point is that so that is
the way that is what we call the

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boundary of what we call space.
The holographic boundary is able

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to encode more and more cosmic
and universal information.

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But the point is also that the
flow of time itself, that every

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Plank scale temporal pixelation
which is 10 to the minus 44

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seconds get your head round
that, you know it's like every

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that every Plank scale time is
like adding another you know

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another movement of of the whole
universes emergence.

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Of course it is so my new that
it's rather like us watching a

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television screen.
You know the pixelation is small

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to us.
So we see the whole image, we

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don't see the pixels.
Well, this is the pixelation of

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the unit, our universe as
reality.

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So that's a start anyway.
I mean, it's a brilliant start

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and I love the way you
articulate this because it makes

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it a lot easier for people to
understand when you're talking

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about the fact that it's
obviously.

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Expanding in the terms of the
way, well, in the way that we

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used to express it, but now
you're talking about it as

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information rather than matter
in the same way we usually

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discuss it.
People.

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I've seen a lot of people sort
of mistake that for new content

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arising, whereas we know that
well, according to the laws of

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thermodynamics, matter is
neither created nor destroyed.

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So you talk about.
Entropy rather than entropy.

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And I do, I do and and.
And.

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As a child this is really sad.
When I was about 7:00 or 8 years

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old, I was always asking why are
the.

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At the time it was mainly 2.
Laws of thermodynamics.

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Yeah, but there's a third law
which is relating to a closed

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system where the temperature of
a closed system is inversely

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proportional to its entropy.
So my question for a long time

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was why are the two laws of of
thermodynamics?

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Because you know, I'm a great
follower of of one of my great

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heroes, Albert Einstein.
And to paraphrase Einstein you

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know the universe as simple as
it can be but no simpler.

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And I add to fulfill its
evolutionary purpose.

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And that add on is really key
because what I realized when I

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was writing the the cosmic
hologram and and also more

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latterly the story of Gaia is we
can actually restate those three

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laws of thermodynamics to what I
call 3 laws of infodynamics.

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So the first law, if we go back
to the initial, you know, the

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initial first or thermodynamics
began of course, essentially

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with Boltzmann saying, as you
say, the energy of a closed

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system, the energy of a closed
system cannot change, it cannot

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be destroyed or created.
It can change through time, but

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it cannot be created or
destroyed.

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So if we take the the, the, the
science going further than

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Boltzmann and bless him, I mean
Boltzmann was doing his work

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before even atoms had been
validated.

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So he was amazing.
Again, pioneer and great giant

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for which I feel we should all
be very, very grateful.

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But taking that on, we now know
that energy and matter are

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equivalent equals M C ^2.
So that says that the energy

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matter of a closed system cannot
be created or destroyed, just

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changed through time.
We also for our laws of physics

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to work at all, and this is
something that really still some

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folks struggle with, but all the
evidence is really showing us

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that our entire universe is a is
a I call contained system

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because closed system has a very
specific topological perspective

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and it can be confusing.
So as a contained system with

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this sort of holographic
perspective, yeah, it means that

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the energy matter of our
universe from its first moment

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to its last.
And there is also now more and

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more evidence that it's a finite
life cycle can neither be

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created nor destroyed.
It can change.

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Now that essentially is the
first law of thermodynamics

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applied to our universe.
But when we also appreciate that

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in 2012 and since, there have
been experiments that have shown

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that information is every bit as
real as any thermodynamic

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measurements, so work heat,
etcetera.

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So we also now know that we can
start to expand that first law

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00:14:06,910 --> 00:14:11,660
of thermodynamics to a first law
of infodynamics, where

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00:14:11,660 --> 00:14:17,140
information expressed as
quantized energy, matter can

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00:14:17,140 --> 00:14:21,300
either be destroyed or created
but just changed through the

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00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:24,900
cycle of our universe.
Now that's fine because that in

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its essence, which is quantum
physics, you know, because of

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00:14:28,220 --> 00:14:30,700
course energy matter is the
domain of quantum physics.

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00:14:30,700 --> 00:14:35,540
In description terms, that's all
great, but it has no notion of

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00:14:35,540 --> 00:14:40,000
space or time.
It's so it it it's it's the it's

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00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,800
the seed, it's the it's the it's
the framing for how our universe

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00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,440
can exist.
But this, then the second law

238
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,920
begins to answer my seven-year
old's question, why do you need

239
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:52,760
more than one law of
thermodynamics?

240
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:57,520
Because the second law, which
you say quite rightly is about

241
00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,440
originally the notion of
entropy.

242
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,360
So the idea is that the entropy
of a closed, I'm going to say

243
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,380
container now, just for
consistency, a container system

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00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:11,980
in, you know, it has to increase
over time.

245
00:15:12,660 --> 00:15:15,020
And there's been a lot of
misunderstanding about this

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00:15:15,020 --> 00:15:18,980
because a lot of folks think of
entropy as order to disorder.

247
00:15:19,500 --> 00:15:22,540
But what Boltzmann was really
talking about was the micro at

248
00:15:22,540 --> 00:15:25,220
the energetic microstates of
such a system.

249
00:15:25,860 --> 00:15:30,020
And when you think about it, I,
I, I sometimes use an analogy of

250
00:15:30,020 --> 00:15:32,860
a pack of cards.
If you take a pack of cards out

251
00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:35,820
of its sort of box, they're very
ordered.

252
00:15:36,180 --> 00:15:38,700
Yeah.
You throw them up in the air and

253
00:15:38,700 --> 00:15:41,420
they land all over the place and
you come together and they're

254
00:15:41,420 --> 00:15:44,940
not in that initial order, but
rather than order to disorder,

255
00:15:44,940 --> 00:15:48,140
you're just increasing the
number of states through time.

256
00:15:48,140 --> 00:15:51,300
So every time you throw them up
and they land, more and more

257
00:15:51,300 --> 00:15:54,220
states are formed.
So it's this is, it's this

258
00:15:54,340 --> 00:15:59,980
progress through time of of
increasing micro energetic

259
00:15:59,980 --> 00:16:02,900
states.
But of course we now also know

260
00:16:03,420 --> 00:16:08,310
that we we can see information
and again we can go into a lot

261
00:16:08,310 --> 00:16:13,550
more detail of the evidence for
this as also being expressed not

262
00:16:13,550 --> 00:16:17,430
just as energy matter in its in
its quantized that's quantized

263
00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:20,750
form, but in a complementary way
of space-time.

264
00:16:20,910 --> 00:16:24,430
That's where the holographic
perspective perspective comes

265
00:16:24,430 --> 00:16:27,030
in.
So that second law then when

266
00:16:27,030 --> 00:16:31,850
applied to our universe can be
restated and in informational

267
00:16:31,850 --> 00:16:34,530
terms that first of all the
entropy.

268
00:16:34,530 --> 00:16:38,010
Because I'm now talking about
information, whereas entropies,

269
00:16:38,010 --> 00:16:43,930
about energetic microstates, I
move from entropy to entropy, it

270
00:16:43,930 --> 00:16:47,690
just makes it easier.
But the but the equation that

271
00:16:47,690 --> 00:16:52,050
describes the informational
content of a container system

272
00:16:52,410 --> 00:16:56,290
and the entropy, the energetic
microstates of a container

273
00:16:56,290 --> 00:17:01,390
system, is the same equation
originally defined by Boltzmann.

274
00:17:01,950 --> 00:17:06,310
So we're on to something here.
And so now if we look at the

275
00:17:06,310 --> 00:17:10,109
second law of infodynamics, it
says that the.

276
00:17:10,470 --> 00:17:12,470
And of course, let me go back to
the first law for a second

277
00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:14,990
because I want to bring in space
and time here because this is

278
00:17:14,990 --> 00:17:18,310
vital.
So the second law of of

279
00:17:18,310 --> 00:17:22,150
thermodynamics says that the
entropy of a container system

280
00:17:22,430 --> 00:17:25,589
can only increase through time.
OK.

281
00:17:25,910 --> 00:17:27,670
And we talk about container
system here.

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00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:32,080
So now we move into 20th century
physics and we now know the

283
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:36,040
equivalence of space and time.
So relative space and relative

284
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:41,800
time, Lovely that they are have
to be conjoined as invariant

285
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,040
space-time if we're going to
have a universe that hangs

286
00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:46,160
together.
Yeah.

287
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,560
And we can actually talk about a
universe that hangs together and

288
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,000
the laws of physics and all the
rest of it.

289
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:56,440
So we can then expand that first
second law of of thermodynamics

290
00:17:57,030 --> 00:18:01,550
from the entropy of a container
system only increasing through

291
00:18:01,550 --> 00:18:05,710
space-time to the entropy of a
container system as its

292
00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:10,590
information content only
increasing, in our universe's

293
00:18:10,590 --> 00:18:15,590
case, through space-time.
So literally, space expands and

294
00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:19,870
time moves forward, the
information content gets bigger

295
00:18:19,870 --> 00:18:21,870
and bigger and bigger and that's
the entropy.

296
00:18:22,110 --> 00:18:26,280
Okay, Third law is.
This is cool.

297
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,960
I love this because this really
came to me quite late on because

298
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,200
I was thinking, gosh, why is
there a third law?

299
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,160
Where does temperature come into
this?

300
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:39,200
But the third law of
thermodynamics, as I mentioned,

301
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,920
says that the temperature of a
contained system and its

302
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,800
entropy, now entropy, are
inversely proportionate.

303
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,740
So we now know that our universe
began in its highest temperature

304
00:18:52,740 --> 00:18:58,060
form at the Plank temperature,
10 to the 32 degrees Kelvin and

305
00:18:58,060 --> 00:19:02,940
its lowest entropy.
So as time flowed and space has

306
00:19:02,940 --> 00:19:05,300
expanded, the temperature has
dropped.

307
00:19:06,300 --> 00:19:11,580
That drop in temperature is
allied inversely to the increase

308
00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:13,820
in informational content,
entropy.

309
00:19:14,380 --> 00:19:17,500
It is so simple, Ted.
I mean, it all hangs together in

310
00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:21,460
this glorious way.
And then the final cherry on top

311
00:19:21,460 --> 00:19:28,700
of it is essentially the I talk
about meaningful information.

312
00:19:29,140 --> 00:19:34,700
Yeah, So the wholeness of our
universe as meaningfully

313
00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:38,420
informed and holographically
manifested.

314
00:19:38,900 --> 00:19:42,020
It's framing can be, can be
done.

315
00:19:42,060 --> 00:19:46,300
It can be brought together with
these three laws of infodynamic.

316
00:19:46,620 --> 00:19:51,380
The first law is the most simple
statement of quantum physics.

317
00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:55,940
The 2nd is the simplest form of
of relativity physics.

318
00:19:56,460 --> 00:20:00,460
But together they combine within
these three laws of

319
00:20:00,500 --> 00:20:03,060
infodynamics, which with a
hyphen.

320
00:20:04,170 --> 00:20:07,650
Are three laws that bring
together our universe, that

321
00:20:07,650 --> 00:20:11,610
meaningfully exists and
purposefully evolves.

322
00:20:12,250 --> 00:20:16,250
I think, I mean, it's incredible
because this is what we've been

323
00:20:16,250 --> 00:20:18,650
searching for such a long time.
People have been looking for a

324
00:20:18,650 --> 00:20:20,930
unifying theory of this
universe.

325
00:20:20,970 --> 00:20:23,370
I mean, it's been the goal.
When you think about Stephen

326
00:20:23,370 --> 00:20:25,810
Hawking, and I know you guys,
when you were the youngest

327
00:20:26,050 --> 00:20:28,610
participant and you won the
award, I can't remember exactly

328
00:20:28,610 --> 00:20:31,250
where, but you obviously met
Stephen Hawking at that time.

329
00:20:31,660 --> 00:20:33,420
Many years ago.
How old were you?

330
00:20:33,420 --> 00:20:38,620
19 At the time I was 19 and my
my mentor was Dennis Sharma, who

331
00:20:38,620 --> 00:20:41,860
was Stevens doctoral supervisor
when they're at Cambridge.

332
00:20:41,860 --> 00:20:43,940
And then Dennis came over to
Oxford.

333
00:20:43,940 --> 00:20:47,340
I was doing my physics at Oxford
and Dennis, bless him, he just

334
00:20:47,340 --> 00:20:51,260
took me under his wing.
And after Steven and Roger

335
00:20:51,260 --> 00:20:55,780
Penrose, who got the Nobel a
couple years ago, came together

336
00:20:55,780 --> 00:21:00,800
to to present to the
postgraduate department, and

337
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,640
Dennis invited me along.
Even though I was an

338
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,520
undergraduate, I was the
youngest person in the room.

339
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:05,840
I think I was the only woman in
the room.

340
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,520
And then afterwards, Dennis
said, why?

341
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,200
Because it was all black holes.
They were like, woof, this is

342
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,800
coming forward.
And Dennis said, why don't you

343
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:18,320
enter this essay competition?
And I said sure.

344
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,760
And he said, why don't you write
about black holes?

345
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,760
And I went sure.
So I did, and I won the prize.

346
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,230
Was it £25?
It was 25 quick in those days.

347
00:21:30,230 --> 00:21:33,350
This was the early 70s.
That was beer money for a term.

348
00:21:34,270 --> 00:21:37,470
The reason why I bring that up
is, I mean, of course we think

349
00:21:37,470 --> 00:21:39,350
of Stephen Hawkin, we think of
theories of everything.

350
00:21:39,430 --> 00:21:43,070
I mean, there's unification of
quantum mechanics and

351
00:21:43,070 --> 00:21:45,630
space-time, general relativity.
How do we combine these

352
00:21:45,630 --> 00:21:47,350
concepts?
But also when you think of

353
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:50,270
Stephen Hawkin, you think of
black holes, event horizons.

354
00:21:50,430 --> 00:21:52,830
I know it's come forward cuz
come full circle.

355
00:21:53,470 --> 00:21:55,190
Extraordinary.
And I want to go into that.

356
00:21:55,190 --> 00:21:57,750
I mean, unless you want to
address the evidence first, how

357
00:21:57,750 --> 00:21:59,750
would you like to approach,
Would you like to go into black

358
00:21:59,750 --> 00:22:00,910
holes now?
First, talk about the

359
00:22:00,910 --> 00:22:04,510
holographic principle and how
we've gathered more evidence

360
00:22:04,510 --> 00:22:07,390
over time and certain
experiments that have helped to

361
00:22:07,390 --> 00:22:09,670
solidify this.
Yeah, I'd be happy to.

362
00:22:09,710 --> 00:22:13,030
And I think the other thing
that's really key in all of this

363
00:22:13,630 --> 00:22:16,670
is that our universe exists and
evolves in this way.

364
00:22:16,670 --> 00:22:17,670
Meaningfully.
Exists.

365
00:22:17,670 --> 00:22:18,870
Purposefully.
Evolves.

366
00:22:19,710 --> 00:22:23,770
Yeah, In manifested
holographically and meaningful

367
00:22:23,770 --> 00:22:27,170
information.
But the other key aspect of it

368
00:22:27,170 --> 00:22:32,410
is our universe does so as a non
locally unified entity.

369
00:22:33,050 --> 00:22:36,250
And this of course if if we can
take a couple of minutes just to

370
00:22:36,250 --> 00:22:39,930
to nail this one down.
I think this is something that

371
00:22:39,930 --> 00:22:44,290
came out right in the early days
of quantum physics and many of

372
00:22:44,290 --> 00:22:47,210
the quantum physicists will
cause scientist Mystics, you

373
00:22:47,210 --> 00:22:50,210
know, and some of them went to
India and started really

374
00:22:50,910 --> 00:22:54,910
appreciating the the Vedic
tradition of ancient India, the

375
00:22:54,910 --> 00:22:58,950
Rishis, the, the Bhagavad Gitas,
the Upanishads were basically

376
00:22:58,950 --> 00:23:01,230
telling the same story that they
were.

377
00:23:01,350 --> 00:23:07,070
They were realizing and what
became clear is that for quantum

378
00:23:07,070 --> 00:23:11,270
physics, quantum mechanics to
work at all, essentially our

379
00:23:11,270 --> 00:23:15,710
universe had to be non locally
unified in its entirety.

380
00:23:16,270 --> 00:23:18,910
And of course, you know, Bell
came out with his, you know,

381
00:23:18,910 --> 00:23:21,430
sometimes called a theory,
sometimes called an inequality.

382
00:23:21,630 --> 00:23:24,270
But nonetheless it was a test
bed for this.

383
00:23:24,350 --> 00:23:28,710
And at the time it was a
theoretical perspective and it

384
00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:30,710
was only many, many decades
afterwards.

385
00:23:30,710 --> 00:23:34,140
You know, it was only seventies,
80s onwards that researchers

386
00:23:34,140 --> 00:23:36,940
were able to start to
experimentally test this at

387
00:23:36,940 --> 00:23:39,940
greater than quantum scales
because it was clear it was

388
00:23:39,940 --> 00:23:44,540
happening at a quantum scale.
But was it able to be expanded

389
00:23:44,540 --> 00:23:48,420
to a universal level?
So you had researchers coming

390
00:23:48,420 --> 00:23:51,780
along and progressively
increasing the scale well beyond

391
00:23:51,780 --> 00:23:55,500
any quantum levels to show
entanglement.

392
00:23:57,060 --> 00:24:01,700
And in 2017 and then 2018, a
group of I thinks it might have

393
00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:05,330
been four or five universities,
one of which I think the lead

394
00:24:05,610 --> 00:24:09,930
was MIT.
And what they were able to do

395
00:24:09,930 --> 00:24:13,770
was non locally entangle photons
of light in the laboratory with

396
00:24:13,770 --> 00:24:18,410
Starlight from 600 light years
away, but also triggered by

397
00:24:18,410 --> 00:24:22,170
light from a quasar, a very
active galactic center. 2

398
00:24:22,170 --> 00:24:24,850
quasars actually.
One I think was 7.8 billion.

399
00:24:24,850 --> 00:24:29,050
The other was 12.2 billion light
years away.

400
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,080
And and that was a triggering
that actually created a level of

401
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:38,040
entanglement that exceeded the
inequality test, you know, the

402
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:43,400
the thresholds of of Bell.
But beyond that, in late last

403
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,680
year, the Nobel Prize for
Physics were given to three

404
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,520
researchers who'd been working
on this for decades, Anton

405
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:55,410
Zellinger, who was also part of
that MIT collaboration Alan

406
00:24:55,410 --> 00:24:58,610
Aspect and John Clausser.
And the Nobel Prize is only

407
00:24:58,610 --> 00:25:01,970
given for settled physics.
I often say Einstein didn't get

408
00:25:01,970 --> 00:25:05,210
it for relativity because it was
seen as being quite contentious.

409
00:25:05,450 --> 00:25:07,210
He got it for the photoelectric
effect.

410
00:25:07,210 --> 00:25:11,410
So the fact that we have now the
Nobel, we've got this

411
00:25:11,410 --> 00:25:15,810
experimentation at cosmological
scales, You know, we have all of

412
00:25:15,810 --> 00:25:19,650
the theoretical framing now to
support this and the and the

413
00:25:19,770 --> 00:25:23,650
evidence across many fields of
research that also play into

414
00:25:23,650 --> 00:25:27,850
this.
It's an amazing and exciting

415
00:25:27,850 --> 00:25:31,570
time, not just for scientists,
because as we'll go and I'm sure

416
00:25:31,930 --> 00:25:36,090
to explore, this is important,
this is vital for everyone.

417
00:25:36,090 --> 00:25:38,010
A lot of implications.
There's so many practical

418
00:25:38,010 --> 00:25:40,390
implications.
Exactly.

419
00:25:40,550 --> 00:25:43,150
I mean, when you think about it,
as you said, Nobel prizes are

420
00:25:43,150 --> 00:25:46,070
only given to settle science.
And I mean, he got it for the

421
00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:48,270
photoelectric effect.
He didn't get it for what he's

422
00:25:48,550 --> 00:25:50,910
best known for.
And that's and that's pretty

423
00:25:50,910 --> 00:25:53,190
incredible because at the time,
of course, I mean, he called it

424
00:25:53,190 --> 00:25:56,390
spooky action at a distance and
we know that he wasn't

425
00:25:56,390 --> 00:25:59,670
comfortable with this concept.
I mean, he wouldn't be now

426
00:25:59,670 --> 00:26:02,190
because I'm I'm convinced he
would have been now because of

427
00:26:02,190 --> 00:26:06,430
course, you know, he was.
He and the quantum physicists

428
00:26:06,790 --> 00:26:10,530
were working decades before the
neutron was discovered.

429
00:26:10,570 --> 00:26:14,370
I mean, let alone the hologram,
let alone the cosmological

430
00:26:14,370 --> 00:26:18,250
understanding we have, let
alone, you know, the the sort of

431
00:26:18,770 --> 00:26:23,130
of of of leaps and bounds we've
had to understand the

432
00:26:23,130 --> 00:26:27,450
significance, the fundamental
significance of information and

433
00:26:27,450 --> 00:26:30,330
meaningful information.
Which means, of course, the

434
00:26:30,330 --> 00:26:31,970
slippery slope.
Yes, please.

435
00:26:31,970 --> 00:26:34,990
Of consciousness.
You know, we have to bring this

436
00:26:34,990 --> 00:26:37,830
front and center.
Of course, what he did feel very

437
00:26:37,830 --> 00:26:41,230
uncomfortable about, as did
Plank and others, is that

438
00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:45,310
whereas quantum physics and what
they're all coming to really

439
00:26:45,310 --> 00:26:48,830
gave us the clues that mind and
consciousness aren't something

440
00:26:48,830 --> 00:26:50,550
we have.
They're literally what we in the

441
00:26:50,550 --> 00:26:54,310
whole world are that was
literally pushed to the side.

442
00:26:54,830 --> 00:27:00,910
And so it's taken almost another
century and an an ability with

443
00:27:00,910 --> 00:27:04,840
the old framing to reconcile
quantum physics and relativity

444
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,360
physics, because they're at the
the appearance level of our

445
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:10,320
universe of energy, matter,
space-time.

446
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,600
We've needed to understand this
deeper level of causation which

447
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,600
is meaningfully informationally
driven.

448
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,880
And then being able to show how
information expresses itself in

449
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,760
these complementary ways as the
appearance of energy, matter,

450
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,430
quantized energy, matter in
entropic space-time, brought in

451
00:27:30,430 --> 00:27:34,870
the holographic principle, You
know, I think he'd be jumping up

452
00:27:34,870 --> 00:27:37,870
and down and going yeah, cuz he
was one of the folks who's

453
00:27:37,870 --> 00:27:42,310
saying mind and consciousness of
what we are, what the whole

454
00:27:42,310 --> 00:27:45,750
world is.
I mean, so Jude, I mean for the

455
00:27:45,750 --> 00:27:47,990
listeners and the viewers, I
mean, I was introduced to your

456
00:27:47,990 --> 00:27:53,150
work by Don Hoffman and.
And he, he told me it would be,

457
00:27:53,430 --> 00:27:56,270
it would be a very fascinating
conversation and I it clearly

458
00:27:56,270 --> 00:27:58,270
already is.
But I remember when Don and I

459
00:27:58,270 --> 00:28:00,230
were talking about it, he was
telling me about your work.

460
00:28:00,230 --> 00:28:03,550
And I find it very intriguing
cuz I mean Don has such amazing

461
00:28:03,550 --> 00:28:05,630
work being done.
They're currently doing the new

462
00:28:05,630 --> 00:28:09,430
test to experiment with physics
arises from consciousness.

463
00:28:09,430 --> 00:28:11,710
And I think they just released
it yesterday.

464
00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:13,870
I think it was.
Yeah, 26th of June, so.

465
00:28:15,340 --> 00:28:18,300
When when you talk about
consciousness from an idealism

466
00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:21,140
perspective, because this is
fundamentally what the view

467
00:28:21,140 --> 00:28:23,820
entails from a philosophical
perspective, it's it's an

468
00:28:23,820 --> 00:28:28,660
idealist view of consciousness.
Consciousness is what we are and

469
00:28:28,700 --> 00:28:30,980
everything that there is
technically, in a sense.

470
00:28:31,180 --> 00:28:33,980
How do you work around this
concept of consciousness?

471
00:28:34,060 --> 00:28:36,900
How do you define it, How do you
explain it to people?

472
00:28:36,900 --> 00:28:39,300
Because obviously this podcast
is called Mind Body Problem.

473
00:28:39,460 --> 00:28:41,140
I mean mind, body, solution for
a reason.

474
00:28:42,380 --> 00:28:46,000
Absolutely.
Well, I you know the very

475
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,040
terminology, what's
consciousness?

476
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,240
You know you you'll get 5
answers from 4 people.

477
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,600
And I have a I have a very broad
Church of consciousness and you

478
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,800
know a friend of mine, Professor
Max Velmans, differentiates mind

479
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,720
and consciousness and and talks
about consciousness as a level

480
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,040
of awareness, whereas mind is
fundamental.

481
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,280
You know, we can talk about mind
as being cosmic mind, as

482
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,840
Einstein would have called it,
the ground of all being, you

483
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:20,760
know And and so in that regard,
um, our universe is is mindful.

484
00:29:22,070 --> 00:29:26,110
And you know the way I'm working
with this and my next book will

485
00:29:26,110 --> 00:29:28,910
dive deeper into the, you know,
the ground of all being and the

486
00:29:28,910 --> 00:29:31,630
rest of it.
But both for the cosmic hologram

487
00:29:31,630 --> 00:29:35,950
and for the story of Gaia, I
really wanted to show how what I

488
00:29:35,950 --> 00:29:39,510
would also refer to as cosmic
mind and eternal and infinite

489
00:29:40,230 --> 00:29:46,510
mind has thoughts, a thought,
thoughts that, you know, we term

490
00:29:46,510 --> 00:29:51,710
our universe which is very much,
you know, pervading universal

491
00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:55,270
wisdom, teachings.
And in my own explorations, you

492
00:29:55,270 --> 00:29:59,110
know, as a noetic experiencer,
all my life is, is very much the

493
00:29:59,110 --> 00:30:01,710
way that I've experienced
realities.

494
00:30:02,630 --> 00:30:07,950
But by being able to articulate
it is as cosmic consciousness,

495
00:30:07,950 --> 00:30:14,730
cosmic mind, expressing itself
as the appearance of our

496
00:30:14,730 --> 00:30:19,370
universe through the
articulation and digitized

497
00:30:19,770 --> 00:30:22,730
meaningful information.
You know, I mean, we're almost

498
00:30:22,730 --> 00:30:26,890
predisposed to this now because
our communications technologies,

499
00:30:27,730 --> 00:30:32,690
you know, take the image of me,
gather all the information, the

500
00:30:32,730 --> 00:30:38,050
meaningful information about me,
translate it into digitized ones

501
00:30:38,050 --> 00:30:43,790
and zeros, squirt it down a
cable of a satellite to your

502
00:30:44,190 --> 00:30:49,430
computer, you know, recombine it
as an image, does the same, vice

503
00:30:49,470 --> 00:30:52,670
versa, you know.
This goes back to the incredible

504
00:30:52,910 --> 00:30:56,270
attributes of Fourier
transforms, the way our universe

505
00:30:56,990 --> 00:31:01,750
can, you know, make this
beautiful play of information

506
00:31:01,990 --> 00:31:06,470
waveforms.
It all hangs together, but it

507
00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:09,430
hangs together with the evidence
showing that it has innate

508
00:31:09,430 --> 00:31:12,140
meaning.
This is the key, I think.

509
00:31:12,260 --> 00:31:15,740
This is not random data, just as
our well, I don't know.

510
00:31:15,740 --> 00:31:17,580
Some people may say it's random
data.

511
00:31:18,940 --> 00:31:21,260
Hopefully our conversation is
meaningful.

512
00:31:21,660 --> 00:31:26,580
But of course the meaningful
nature of our universe is not

513
00:31:26,700 --> 00:31:29,820
dependent in any way on human
sentience.

514
00:31:30,420 --> 00:31:35,980
It's a universe that is itself
living in that sense, mindful,

515
00:31:36,740 --> 00:31:40,740
informational, where everything
in it from, you know, atoms and

516
00:31:40,740 --> 00:31:46,100
molecules to planets and plants
and people, have a part of that

517
00:31:46,140 --> 00:31:53,460
meaning and essential purpose.
So it's a broad church, but it's

518
00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:58,700
innately the same fundamental
stuff, the nature of reality.

519
00:31:59,020 --> 00:32:01,340
Dude, what are your thoughts on
Don's work?

520
00:32:02,980 --> 00:32:06,940
I well, when I first got it was
so lovely because Don and I met

521
00:32:07,660 --> 00:32:12,460
at the Science and Nonduality
conference in in California

522
00:32:12,460 --> 00:32:16,180
before the pandemic and had
lunch together and and really

523
00:32:16,180 --> 00:32:19,580
enjoyed being together and had a
number of conversations since.

524
00:32:19,580 --> 00:32:21,740
And I love his work.
He's coming.

525
00:32:21,740 --> 00:32:26,100
I'm coming from this primarily
as a as a cosmologist and as an

526
00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:30,620
evolutionary biologist and a
systems person and you could

527
00:32:30,620 --> 00:32:35,970
argue philosopher but many many
different hats and and because

528
00:32:35,970 --> 00:32:38,810
I'm so curious I like to join
the dots and see where they

529
00:32:39,130 --> 00:32:41,730
lead.
Dong comes from it more from

530
00:32:41,730 --> 00:32:46,090
human consciousness and how our
human consciousness relates to

531
00:32:46,090 --> 00:32:49,970
this wider consciousness.
And his book was is very

532
00:32:49,970 --> 00:32:53,250
provocative because of course
from the human consciousness

533
00:32:53,250 --> 00:33:00,170
perspective our senses are not
direct in in direct touch points

534
00:33:00,250 --> 00:33:05,550
with universal consciousness we
we, we moderate, we mitigate,

535
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:10,470
yeah, our sense of self through
a number of ways of forming

536
00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:13,550
meaning.
But when we met I realized that

537
00:33:13,550 --> 00:33:20,110
he wasn't in any way decrying or
or not acknowledging universal

538
00:33:20,830 --> 00:33:24,710
reality.
He was only really exploring the

539
00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:30,420
ways in which we relate to that
larger understanding of reality.

540
00:33:30,420 --> 00:33:35,060
So you know, as microcosmic
cocreators, as I call this, of

541
00:33:35,060 --> 00:33:38,020
our universal living
intelligence.

542
00:33:39,340 --> 00:33:42,780
He and I are very close.
So you know, I mean we we, we,

543
00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:45,820
we agree very much.
And what I really love as well

544
00:33:45,820 --> 00:33:50,860
is he's working with a number of
quantum physicists in in a in a

545
00:33:50,860 --> 00:33:54,780
sort of more specified way of of
how this works.

546
00:33:55,100 --> 00:33:58,650
But what I would say is the work
that I've done offers is the

547
00:33:58,650 --> 00:34:01,610
underpinning of framing through
these three laws of

548
00:34:01,610 --> 00:34:06,730
infodynamics.
And I'm happy to sort of say to

549
00:34:06,730 --> 00:34:10,370
Don and the other guys, I'm
really excited about what you're

550
00:34:10,370 --> 00:34:13,010
gonna come forward in this
because it's going to come.

551
00:34:13,090 --> 00:34:16,210
I just feel it's all convergent.
It's all the same direction of

552
00:34:16,210 --> 00:34:17,929
travel.
I'm glad you brought up quite

553
00:34:17,969 --> 00:34:20,290
quantum physicists, because I
mean another theory of

554
00:34:20,290 --> 00:34:22,949
consciousness that.
That circulates is is that of

555
00:34:22,949 --> 00:34:24,190
Penrose.
When you think of Stuart,

556
00:34:24,469 --> 00:34:26,909
Stuart, Hammeroff and Penrose,
they they talk about quantum

557
00:34:26,909 --> 00:34:29,429
consciousness and the
microtubules of cells.

558
00:34:29,670 --> 00:34:32,750
Your thoughts on that?
Well, I write about this a

559
00:34:32,750 --> 00:34:35,350
little bit in in in well, I
write about quantum beyond

560
00:34:35,350 --> 00:34:39,909
biology in in the story of Gaia.
Because whereas the cosmic

561
00:34:39,909 --> 00:34:42,670
hologram was bringing the
evidence and this, this

562
00:34:42,670 --> 00:34:46,230
underpinning and framing of
these laws of infodynamics and

563
00:34:46,230 --> 00:34:50,940
the cosmology and all the rest
of it, that was back in 2017, in

564
00:34:50,940 --> 00:34:52,940
in last year with the story of
Gaia.

565
00:34:53,260 --> 00:34:56,780
I wanted to tell the
evolutionary story not just of

566
00:34:56,820 --> 00:34:59,340
our planetary home but our
entire universe.

567
00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:04,540
Because the story of our
universe as as, as my friend

568
00:35:04,540 --> 00:35:07,620
Brian Schwim and I both talk
about is, is a story of ours,

569
00:35:08,790 --> 00:35:11,550
You know, are the hydrogen in
our bodies is as old as the

570
00:35:11,550 --> 00:35:13,630
universe.
We're not just Stardust, even

571
00:35:13,630 --> 00:35:16,030
though we are.
We go back way by.

572
00:35:16,630 --> 00:35:21,390
We're all 13.8 billion year all
13.8 billion years old.

573
00:35:21,630 --> 00:35:25,750
So in that sense the the
evolutionary stories is is

574
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:29,750
extraordinary and what you see
throughout it and and really

575
00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:33,750
came to me ever more strongly as
as I wrote the book or the book

576
00:35:33,750 --> 00:35:38,850
wrote me I feel is a sense of
evolutionary purpose because

577
00:35:38,850 --> 00:35:43,010
what you have you know all the
way through is this almost

578
00:35:43,010 --> 00:35:47,890
preparatory processes that
things were in place that could

579
00:35:47,890 --> 00:35:50,490
then be assembled when the
conditions were right.

580
00:35:51,130 --> 00:35:54,930
You know if we go back before
the our planetary home came into

581
00:35:54,930 --> 00:36:00,330
being about 5 billion years ago,
around 5 1/2 billion years ago,

582
00:36:00,690 --> 00:36:06,340
the harbingers are on the
nutrients that would create our

583
00:36:06,340 --> 00:36:09,180
our sun and and our planetary
system.

584
00:36:09,540 --> 00:36:13,700
We're all there just stating in
interstellar clouds of of gas

585
00:36:13,700 --> 00:36:17,220
and dust including complex
molecules.

586
00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:22,260
And we start to get the sense of
that quantized nature of

587
00:36:22,260 --> 00:36:26,300
potential playing out there
where we even within those

588
00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:31,180
complex molecules we were
starting to get enzymes coming

589
00:36:31,260 --> 00:36:35,870
into being.
And enzymes you know are vital

590
00:36:36,110 --> 00:36:40,830
to the speed in which proteins
come together and and and build

591
00:36:41,110 --> 00:36:45,670
biological organisms because the
enzyme speed those those

592
00:36:45,670 --> 00:36:49,430
processes up dramatically
without in themselves changing.

593
00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:53,150
And the view very much is that
that involves quantum tunneling.

594
00:36:54,950 --> 00:36:59,830
And so when Stewart and and and
and Roger have been bringing

595
00:36:59,830 --> 00:37:03,380
these ideas of microtubules
forward, I don't think it's the

596
00:37:03,380 --> 00:37:06,820
most fundamental aspect of how
this is playing out.

597
00:37:06,820 --> 00:37:09,860
But I think it's an important
contribution to the

598
00:37:09,860 --> 00:37:12,740
conversation.
And other people such as Jim and

599
00:37:12,780 --> 00:37:16,780
Al Khalili has also written on
quantum biology.

600
00:37:17,700 --> 00:37:20,740
You know there is a there
there's a view that some of them

601
00:37:20,740 --> 00:37:24,140
have expressed that
photosynthesis is is quantized

602
00:37:24,140 --> 00:37:26,860
in nature.
I I personally haven't seen the

603
00:37:26,860 --> 00:37:28,540
evidence that's convinced me of
that.

604
00:37:28,780 --> 00:37:32,420
I think there are other
processes that are at play that

605
00:37:32,420 --> 00:37:36,620
don't actually need that aspect.
But there are others where as I

606
00:37:36,620 --> 00:37:40,100
say enzymatic action and and
others there are other ways in

607
00:37:40,100 --> 00:37:44,900
which the DNA double Helix is
formed and and and molecules

608
00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:51,820
such as a positive molecules and
the way that that works that can

609
00:37:51,820 --> 00:37:55,500
really hold memory for a very
long time likely because of

610
00:37:55,500 --> 00:37:57,440
quantum resonance.
Yeah.

611
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,840
So I write about all of this in
the story of Guy because it's

612
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,520
very important and it's very
much an emergent field of study.

613
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,040
Yeah, so I'll definitely be
putting links to your books

614
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,240
below, and to the website of
course, where when I remember

615
00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:17,320
while reading I was thinking to
myself there were two specific

616
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,320
experiments I wanted to ask you
about while reading.

617
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,680
It came to my mind immediately
and I thought of the observer

618
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,720
effect and the double slit
experiment.

619
00:38:24,530 --> 00:38:25,970
Yeah.
And I wanted to just know your

620
00:38:25,970 --> 00:38:28,010
general thoughts on that.
So I have one more question.

621
00:38:28,010 --> 00:38:30,410
But I think before I get to the
second one, just what are your

622
00:38:30,410 --> 00:38:33,130
general views on that?
Cuz when I interviewed Don, I

623
00:38:33,130 --> 00:38:35,730
remember talking about when we
talk about consciousness being

624
00:38:35,730 --> 00:38:39,370
fundamental and the entirety of
our reality.

625
00:38:40,530 --> 00:38:43,650
And I said I labeled the podcast
a new experiment to test where

626
00:38:43,650 --> 00:38:46,770
the consciousness, where the
physics arises from

627
00:38:46,770 --> 00:38:49,730
consciousness.
And someone commented saying

628
00:38:50,250 --> 00:38:52,370
Have you ever heard of the
observer effect as a joke?

629
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,280
So I think with you, let's
address that how that supports

630
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,280
this info.
I really, I really want to

631
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:04,840
though expand this, this
perception that the universe is

632
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,480
the universe, whether we're here
or not.

633
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,200
Yes, yes, I think that's really
important because so much

634
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,720
perspectives about consciousness
is human centered.

635
00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:16,560
And I'm not suggesting that's
problematic.

636
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,110
I'm saying it's both and.
And the way that we as

637
00:39:20,110 --> 00:39:24,830
microcosms of our universe is
macrocosmic consciousness,

638
00:39:24,830 --> 00:39:30,030
sentience, livingness, mind
what, you know, because I think

639
00:39:30,030 --> 00:39:32,750
we can get caught up in the
languaging a little bit and I

640
00:39:32,750 --> 00:39:35,630
want to sort of get a more so
generic sense of this.

641
00:39:37,870 --> 00:39:43,150
But yes, so, so going back to
remind me, I think I'm losing

642
00:39:43,150 --> 00:39:46,670
the thread here.
Server effect, Observer effect.

643
00:39:46,910 --> 00:39:51,450
Yeah, OK, that the point is
we're embedded within a

644
00:39:51,810 --> 00:39:56,130
conscious universe.
There cannot not be an observer

645
00:39:56,130 --> 00:39:59,090
effect because we're both
observed and observed.

646
00:39:59,410 --> 00:40:01,850
We are naturally embodied.
We're inseparable.

647
00:40:02,810 --> 00:40:05,530
We are literally inseparable.
But I think the important point

648
00:40:05,530 --> 00:40:10,010
there is that the unity and
unified nature of of of non

649
00:40:10,010 --> 00:40:12,810
locally unified nature of our
universe.

650
00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:15,520
Has two aspects.
First of all it means that

651
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,680
although our universe exists and
and evolves as a non locally

652
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:24,520
unified entity within
space-time, light is the cosmic

653
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,400
speed.
COP signals cannot go faster

654
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,600
than the speed of light within
space-time, which means that we

655
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,000
can have this journey of 13.8
billion years.

656
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,920
We can have a flow of time, we
can have a causality and this is

657
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,920
important when we start to
explore supernormal phenomena

658
00:40:43,150 --> 00:40:47,870
because although this both and
enable super you know naturalize

659
00:40:47,870 --> 00:40:51,710
the Super normal phenomena
naturalizes our intuitive

660
00:40:51,710 --> 00:40:56,110
insights, naturalizes
synchronicities, it's a both and

661
00:40:56,110 --> 00:40:58,390
so there is this causality
playing through.

662
00:40:58,390 --> 00:41:02,310
So you know I was, I was in a
panel with Dean Raiden and the

663
00:41:02,310 --> 00:41:06,270
Ions folks a couple of days ago
and Don was being given a prize

664
00:41:06,270 --> 00:41:09,390
there, which is wonderful for
his work.

665
00:41:10,990 --> 00:41:16,150
But essentially because it's
it's it's both and we are both

666
00:41:16,150 --> 00:41:18,710
observed and observed, we are
inseparable.

667
00:41:18,910 --> 00:41:23,590
But that unity is
differentiated, it's unity and

668
00:41:23,590 --> 00:41:27,670
diversity, it's unit in radical
diversity.

669
00:41:28,190 --> 00:41:33,150
So yes, we're always we're
informational beings within an

670
00:41:33,150 --> 00:41:37,310
informational universe whether
we know it or not.

671
00:41:37,550 --> 00:41:43,950
We're in continuous dialogue
multi log, yes with all around

672
00:41:43,950 --> 00:41:48,790
us we are we talk a whole world
view of act local field global,

673
00:41:48,790 --> 00:41:53,070
think cosmic because we are all
and we are uniquely.

674
00:41:53,470 --> 00:41:57,790
Our universe is breathing
through us, each of us uniquely.

675
00:41:58,150 --> 00:42:01,590
So let's apply this law of
infodynamics.

676
00:42:01,590 --> 00:42:04,830
Let's apply infodynamics to.
Different system so people can

677
00:42:04,830 --> 00:42:07,070
get a better understanding or a
better picture of this.

678
00:42:07,070 --> 00:42:09,870
So let's think of it from maybe
let's take into account a

679
00:42:09,870 --> 00:42:12,790
biological scale or something
like DNA and apply it to

680
00:42:12,790 --> 00:42:14,390
something like human
civilization.

681
00:42:14,390 --> 00:42:17,230
Take it to economics, and then
we continue from there.

682
00:42:17,230 --> 00:42:20,790
Just maybe start off from an
atomic scale, perhaps, and then

683
00:42:20,790 --> 00:42:23,390
let's work our way up.
OK, let's do that.

684
00:42:23,390 --> 00:42:27,110
Because what we're finding is
that the informational patterns,

685
00:42:27,390 --> 00:42:32,490
the relational dynamic
informational patterns, many of

686
00:42:32,530 --> 00:42:36,330
of whom we call fractals, but
all the relationships are a

687
00:42:36,330 --> 00:42:39,170
fractal per se.
We have other relationships that

688
00:42:39,170 --> 00:42:41,850
we can come to, for example,
power laws.

689
00:42:42,290 --> 00:42:45,330
But we find the fractal
relationships, which are

690
00:42:45,330 --> 00:42:50,130
essentially geometric when
Beckenstein was doing the the

691
00:42:50,130 --> 00:42:54,810
holographic work on information
and the pixelation at the

692
00:42:54,810 --> 00:42:58,460
boundary of what we call
space-time, that Planck scale.

693
00:42:58,460 --> 00:43:02,740
Pixelation on that
two-dimensional boundary of

694
00:43:02,740 --> 00:43:07,700
space-time is triangular.
Okay, because then it can tile

695
00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:11,020
without a break.
It's the ideal geometry that

696
00:43:11,020 --> 00:43:14,740
doesn't overlap.
So within each Planck scale,

697
00:43:15,500 --> 00:43:19,060
yes, pixelation, there is
essentially one bit of

698
00:43:19,060 --> 00:43:22,380
information and it's at such a
minute level that when we scale

699
00:43:22,380 --> 00:43:27,980
it up to atoms or or quarks or
neutrinos or and and beyond, it

700
00:43:27,980 --> 00:43:32,020
has a lot of information already
at that accumulated scale.

701
00:43:33,220 --> 00:43:38,340
But what we find is that, for
example, when an element is

702
00:43:38,380 --> 00:43:41,580
going through a phase
transition, for example between

703
00:43:41,580 --> 00:43:45,620
an insulation and metal, it's
electrons cluster fractally.

704
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:47,960
Yeah.
So from that scale we're

705
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,640
starting to, because of course
the Plank scale is much tinier,

706
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,160
that pixelation scale is much
tiny, so we're at atomic scale.

707
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,400
We also find fractals running
through from that scale upwards.

708
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,080
So for example, on a planetary
scale, clouds are fractal.

709
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,040
In that sense, weather patterns
are fractally based.

710
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,680
River systems are fractal.
But the key thing here and let

711
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,240
me just go up to cosmic scale
and then I want to come back

712
00:44:14,710 --> 00:44:18,230
because there's a key point here
we find that at a planetary in a

713
00:44:18,230 --> 00:44:22,150
planetary scale but also when we
look at a solar system scale the

714
00:44:22,150 --> 00:44:27,110
solar wind is fractal.
Some of the of the the ways in

715
00:44:27,110 --> 00:44:31,430
which the resonances of of
planetary orbits and and and

716
00:44:31,430 --> 00:44:34,110
planetary the planetary system
as a whole have fractal

717
00:44:34,110 --> 00:44:36,870
relationships.
We go into the Galaxy we see

718
00:44:36,870 --> 00:44:38,870
fractal patterns.
Here we go to cluster of

719
00:44:38,870 --> 00:44:41,410
galaxies.
We see fractal patterns and in

720
00:44:41,410 --> 00:44:47,570
2017 a surety and scanderis and
a group of folks looked at the

721
00:44:47,570 --> 00:44:51,290
cosmic microwave background,
which is as you know, is the

722
00:44:51,290 --> 00:44:53,890
relic radiation left over from
what's often called the

723
00:44:53,890 --> 00:44:58,130
recombination era around 380,000
years after the beginning of the

724
00:44:58,130 --> 00:45:03,010
big breath, where space had
expanded enough and temperature

725
00:45:03,010 --> 00:45:05,250
cooled down enough to become
transparent.

726
00:45:05,250 --> 00:45:08,570
Because before that space was
transparent to acoustic

727
00:45:08,570 --> 00:45:13,370
signaling but not to light.
When that happened, again there

728
00:45:13,370 --> 00:45:18,250
was like a phase transition
where um space became

729
00:45:18,250 --> 00:45:22,410
transparent and therefore there
was a relic radiation that

730
00:45:22,410 --> 00:45:24,090
filled the whole of space at
that time.

731
00:45:24,610 --> 00:45:28,790
And because the temperature that
was Prev that was in in play at

732
00:45:28,790 --> 00:45:31,830
that time, we think that it
would have had an orange glow,

733
00:45:31,990 --> 00:45:35,750
which I quite like the idea of
really anyway, that filled the

734
00:45:35,750 --> 00:45:38,270
whole of space.
As space has continued to expand

735
00:45:38,270 --> 00:45:42,310
ever since that those
wavelengths have have sort of

736
00:45:42,390 --> 00:45:47,030
lengthened to microwave
microwaves now and so we call it

737
00:45:47,030 --> 00:45:49,950
the cosmic microwave background
and it fills the whole of space

738
00:45:50,630 --> 00:45:55,210
in 2017.
An analysis from the W map, the

739
00:45:55,210 --> 00:46:00,330
Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy
Probe Map, was able to show

740
00:46:00,330 --> 00:46:03,530
fractal patterns in the minute
temperature differences

741
00:46:03,850 --> 00:46:06,730
throughout the whole of the
cosmic microwave background.

742
00:46:06,890 --> 00:46:09,930
So we have fractals all the way
up and all the way back.

743
00:46:10,210 --> 00:46:14,690
But going back to us, we find
that the same fractal patterns

744
00:46:15,130 --> 00:46:18,330
that underpin, for example,
complex systems such as

745
00:46:18,370 --> 00:46:23,070
ecosystems, is the same fractal
patterns that underpin the nodes

746
00:46:23,110 --> 00:46:25,990
and the networking points of the
Internet.

747
00:46:26,670 --> 00:46:30,310
Yeah, we find, for example,
moving beyond fractals.

748
00:46:30,310 --> 00:46:33,710
So let's look at power laws.
Let's look at the incidence, for

749
00:46:33,710 --> 00:46:37,910
example, of earthquakes.
We know that when we plot the

750
00:46:38,070 --> 00:46:41,950
incidence of earthquakes against
the destructive power on a

751
00:46:41,950 --> 00:46:46,310
logarithmic scale, the Richter
scale, that they form a straight

752
00:46:46,310 --> 00:46:47,710
line.
So in other words, there's no

753
00:46:47,710 --> 00:46:49,350
such thing as an average
earthquake.

754
00:46:49,970 --> 00:46:55,250
If you apply all the earthquakes
big to small, on that you know

755
00:46:55,250 --> 00:46:58,570
that frequency and then
logarithmic destruction, they

756
00:46:58,570 --> 00:47:01,170
form a straight line.
It's called a power law, which

757
00:47:01,170 --> 00:47:04,770
says there's only one
relationship for all of them,

758
00:47:05,170 --> 00:47:11,370
that an earthquake that is twice
as powerful logarithmically is 4

759
00:47:11,370 --> 00:47:13,210
times less frequent.
That's it.

760
00:47:13,210 --> 00:47:16,570
So there's no such thing as an
average, no Gaussian curve

761
00:47:16,570 --> 00:47:18,980
there.
But at the end of the Second

762
00:47:18,980 --> 00:47:22,060
World War, a researcher called
Lewis Richardson.

763
00:47:22,620 --> 00:47:26,340
And then subsequently to that.
A researcher at Miami

764
00:47:26,340 --> 00:47:31,140
University, gentleman whose
surname is Johnson but whose

765
00:47:31,140 --> 00:47:36,780
first name eludes me, looked at
human conflicts at all scales

766
00:47:36,980 --> 00:47:40,020
and measured them in terms of
their frequency against their

767
00:47:40,460 --> 00:47:44,220
destructive power, in terms of
human fatalities, and found the

768
00:47:44,220 --> 00:47:49,630
same relationship, slightly
different pitch, but nonetheless

769
00:47:49,630 --> 00:47:51,670
the same relationship As for
earthquakes.

770
00:47:52,070 --> 00:47:55,150
Because what we're realizing,
going back to what we're saying

771
00:47:55,150 --> 00:47:58,510
throughout this, is the
appearance of our universe

772
00:47:58,830 --> 00:48:02,790
emerges from deeper levels of
meaningfully information.

773
00:48:02,790 --> 00:48:07,590
And that applies to our human
behaviors, our human

774
00:48:07,590 --> 00:48:10,830
consciousness, as well as
universal consciousness and

775
00:48:10,830 --> 00:48:15,990
planetary sentience that brings
forward these same relationships

776
00:48:16,340 --> 00:48:19,220
at all scales.
But the key here is if we have

777
00:48:19,220 --> 00:48:25,860
the collective awareness to make
choices of conflict, then we can

778
00:48:25,860 --> 00:48:28,820
evolve our collective awareness
to make choices of peace.

779
00:48:30,300 --> 00:48:34,300
And this is, I think, one of the
most fundamental conversations

780
00:48:34,780 --> 00:48:37,100
of our time.
Because this is what this new

781
00:48:37,100 --> 00:48:41,900
understanding and this you know,
this a unitive narrative that

782
00:48:41,900 --> 00:48:45,580
can, you know there's an
underpinned and framed by the

783
00:48:45,580 --> 00:48:49,980
evidence, but also can underpin
and frame our choices and

784
00:48:49,980 --> 00:48:53,820
therefore our behaviors.
You know exactly, and that's why

785
00:48:53,940 --> 00:48:56,780
I mean, when I labeled this
podcast, I said that this

786
00:48:56,780 --> 00:49:00,140
podcast explores the nature of
reality, consciousness, free

787
00:49:00,140 --> 00:49:02,220
will.
But morality is a big part of

788
00:49:02,220 --> 00:49:05,100
it, because whatever belief you
have regarding the nature of

789
00:49:05,100 --> 00:49:09,060
reality or consciousness will
determine how you perceive your

790
00:49:09,060 --> 00:49:10,580
ethics, your morals, your
values.

791
00:49:11,020 --> 00:49:12,140
There's.
Yeah.

792
00:49:12,300 --> 00:49:16,700
And with your view, I see such a
deep, caring, healing nature

793
00:49:16,700 --> 00:49:19,780
towards it all and I am
definitely going to touch on

794
00:49:19,780 --> 00:49:22,420
these practical implications.
But before we do, I just want to

795
00:49:22,660 --> 00:49:26,500
definitely make sure that we
touch on as much of this, the

796
00:49:26,500 --> 00:49:28,420
science behind what you're
talking about, because it's so

797
00:49:28,420 --> 00:49:31,460
amazing and it's so intriguing.
One thing I did want to touch on

798
00:49:31,460 --> 00:49:34,200
before that was.
I mean there was the big breath.

799
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:38,280
It all started slow out breath.
You often talk about Vedic

800
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,480
traditions and the Brahman and
how they started this concept.

801
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,120
What happens as we go along all
the way to the end.

802
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,960
Well the evidence we've got now
is suggesting that this is

803
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,780
continued out breath.
You know for a long time there

804
00:49:52,780 --> 00:49:56,300
was this is it going to be, is
it going to do that or is it

805
00:49:56,300 --> 00:49:58,620
going to bounce back or what's
going to happen.

806
00:49:59,100 --> 00:50:03,460
And we find that, you know, the
acceleration, very surprisingly

807
00:50:03,460 --> 00:50:07,380
for a lot of people that the
accelerate, that the expansion

808
00:50:07,380 --> 00:50:11,930
of our universe began to
accelerate again about 5 billion

809
00:50:11,930 --> 00:50:13,970
years ago.
So it started with an

810
00:50:13,970 --> 00:50:17,330
acceleration the first time, you
know, the first epoch of the big

811
00:50:17,330 --> 00:50:19,330
breath.
It then slowed down because the

812
00:50:19,330 --> 00:50:22,850
balance of gravity and and and
and dark energy and all the rest

813
00:50:22,850 --> 00:50:27,770
of it, one out, one in.
But then a space that expanded

814
00:50:27,770 --> 00:50:31,090
to the point of about 5 billion
years ago, the acceleration

815
00:50:31,090 --> 00:50:33,210
began again.
And it looks as though that

816
00:50:33,210 --> 00:50:38,120
there's nothing to, there's no
way in which that that is likely

817
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,560
to stop.
And and when I bring the third

818
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:44,640
law of infodynamics into the
piece, of course the temperature

819
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,440
continues to drop as the
information continues to

820
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:50,640
increase.
You can see that there's a sort

821
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,800
of a cycle here because the
temperature of our universe, as

822
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,840
I said, began at the Planck
scale at the first moment of the

823
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:03,510
big breath, 10 to the 32 K it's
now down at just over 2.7 K So

824
00:51:03,510 --> 00:51:08,630
we're looking to see that this,
this life cycle, rather like a

825
00:51:08,630 --> 00:51:12,390
bubble.
Yeah, comes to a completion at

826
00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:14,310
some point.
The other thing is there was

827
00:51:14,310 --> 00:51:18,140
some really good work done by I
think Dennis Sobrow a few years

828
00:51:18,140 --> 00:51:22,220
ago that I I referenced in the
cosmic hologram showing that the

829
00:51:22,220 --> 00:51:26,980
sort of the, the, the, the, the
epochs of stellar formation and

830
00:51:26,980 --> 00:51:30,300
a big big acceleration about 9
billion years ago.

831
00:51:30,300 --> 00:51:33,460
And then another enough but
progressively less and less

832
00:51:33,460 --> 00:51:37,220
fewer of you because the
hydrogen to create new stars is

833
00:51:37,220 --> 00:51:40,020
is being used up.
So the view is that probably

834
00:51:40,020 --> 00:51:44,580
something like 98% of All Stars
that could form have already

835
00:51:44,580 --> 00:51:47,300
formed many of them have come to
the end of their lives.

836
00:51:47,620 --> 00:51:51,140
And again you know as I write in
the story of God this is

837
00:51:51,140 --> 00:51:57,100
incredible evolutionary arc you
know of of of massive stars at

838
00:51:57,100 --> 00:52:00,260
the beginning that form black
holes and super massive black

839
00:52:00,260 --> 00:52:04,540
holes and galaxies and then you
know it's it's just a beautiful

840
00:52:04,540 --> 00:52:07,540
beautiful journey journey
forward.

841
00:52:07,860 --> 00:52:12,300
So my perspective again with the
evidence, you know, I'll follow.

842
00:52:12,300 --> 00:52:15,770
I hopefully follow the evidence
wherever it leads.

843
00:52:15,770 --> 00:52:19,130
But this is where it seems to be
leading us, that our universe

844
00:52:19,130 --> 00:52:23,170
is, is finite in form.
It's a it's a great thought

845
00:52:23,170 --> 00:52:26,850
form, but a finite thought form
in that sense in the mind of the

846
00:52:26,850 --> 00:52:30,050
cosmos.
And we're probably closer to the

847
00:52:30,450 --> 00:52:34,750
end than we are to the beginning
in that regard.

848
00:52:35,030 --> 00:52:37,630
And I mean, it does work.
So a lot of people seem to,

849
00:52:37,870 --> 00:52:40,990
well, from what I've gathered,
seem to think that you're not,

850
00:52:40,990 --> 00:52:43,030
you're talking about something
completely different, but you're

851
00:52:43,030 --> 00:52:44,190
not.
You're actually taking the

852
00:52:44,190 --> 00:52:46,870
current work we have and you're
framing it in a different

853
00:52:46,870 --> 00:52:49,270
perspective.
And I think that's important to

854
00:52:49,270 --> 00:52:52,710
note is that it's not that
you're making new claims in a

855
00:52:52,710 --> 00:52:55,270
sense, you're more just changing
it and adjusting it in a way

856
00:52:55,270 --> 00:52:58,310
that completely shifts mindsets
altogether.

857
00:52:58,750 --> 00:53:01,910
How do you feel this has
impacted the scientific

858
00:53:01,910 --> 00:53:04,470
community because you know how
scientists can be.

859
00:53:08,790 --> 00:53:11,830
I'm pretty sure you've been,
because anytime someone talks

860
00:53:11,830 --> 00:53:14,830
about anything that goes outside
of the status quo in science,

861
00:53:14,830 --> 00:53:17,350
you complete, you're labeled as
so many different things that

862
00:53:18,110 --> 00:53:20,270
how has it been on your
receiving end?

863
00:53:21,510 --> 00:53:24,310
It's been extraordinary
actually.

864
00:53:24,310 --> 00:53:29,240
It's been rather wonderful
because in a way because as you

865
00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:32,080
say, I'm I'm actually working
with the evidence and I'm

866
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,960
working with the evidence of 10s
of thousands of researchers.

867
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:40,720
I guess what I can bring is an
ability to see patterns and an

868
00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:43,600
ability to join up the dots
because so many scientists are

869
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:48,840
working this incredibly depth of
of work, but they're not seeing

870
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,720
what so and so is doing or so
and so is doing in a different

871
00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:55,200
field of study.
And what I can do, because of,

872
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:59,330
you know, my breadth of
interests, is I can see the

873
00:53:59,330 --> 00:54:03,690
bigger picture of what it's all
coming with and and the

874
00:54:03,690 --> 00:54:07,090
direction of travel.
And, you know, also as a

875
00:54:07,090 --> 00:54:10,570
cosmologist, you know, we're
getting folks like Professor

876
00:54:10,570 --> 00:54:15,090
Brian Cox who wrote a book with
Jeff Forshaw last autumn, last

877
00:54:15,090 --> 00:54:19,650
fall basically on black holes.
But coming at the end of that

878
00:54:19,650 --> 00:54:23,410
book to say more and more, it's
looking that the appearance of

879
00:54:23,410 --> 00:54:25,450
our universe is not, it's deeper
reality.

880
00:54:25,490 --> 00:54:27,090
I don't know what that means, he
says.

881
00:54:28,100 --> 00:54:31,220
But that's the point that
cosmologists are coming to,

882
00:54:31,540 --> 00:54:34,740
because that is where the
evidence is leading us now.

883
00:54:35,060 --> 00:54:37,900
You're right.
I think, you know, I'm also a

884
00:54:37,900 --> 00:54:40,300
student of the history of
science.

885
00:54:40,980 --> 00:54:45,260
And I can see how certainly over
the last, still until the 20th

886
00:54:45,260 --> 00:54:50,620
century, there was a perspective
very much of this separation of

887
00:54:50,620 --> 00:54:53,580
science and spirituality.
And I can absolutely, you know,

888
00:54:53,580 --> 00:54:55,900
I've studied all the reasons for
this and get it.

889
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:01,160
But we're coming full circle,
full spiral now because the

890
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,840
leading edge discoveries, and
they really are only in the last

891
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,640
few years, the holographic
principle, the understanding of

892
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:11,680
information.
You know my my re definition of

893
00:55:11,720 --> 00:55:13,960
the laws of thermodynamics to
infodynamics.

894
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:18,040
It's just it's simple.
Anybody could have come up with

895
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,920
that.
The reason I did it is because I

896
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:24,120
saw it with new eyes, as you
say, and I wasn't caught with

897
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:29,740
the old perspective.
And so in that sense, and that's

898
00:55:29,740 --> 00:55:32,540
what Marcel Proust of course
said, that the journey of

899
00:55:32,540 --> 00:55:36,020
discovery is not discovering new
lands, it's seen with new eyes.

900
00:55:36,620 --> 00:55:40,940
And so I think it's it's almost
is is a situation where once

901
00:55:40,940 --> 00:55:45,420
somebody is willing to see with
new eyes, it all fits into place

902
00:55:45,660 --> 00:55:49,420
and it's not in any way
dishonoring everything that's

903
00:55:49,420 --> 00:55:52,060
come before.
We've needed to take every step,

904
00:55:52,060 --> 00:55:54,100
it seems to me.
So I'm not into blame and shame

905
00:55:54,100 --> 00:55:59,610
on any way, but we do have a
paradigm that's actually not

906
00:55:59,610 --> 00:56:03,770
even 20th century science.
It's 19th century science of of

907
00:56:03,770 --> 00:56:06,650
a mechanical, mechanistic,
materialistic, separatist

908
00:56:06,650 --> 00:56:09,090
universe.
And that is being turned on its

909
00:56:09,090 --> 00:56:11,210
head.
And when we bring consciousness

910
00:56:11,250 --> 00:56:16,690
in, it's not it's it's it.
How can I put it?

911
00:56:16,890 --> 00:56:19,330
It's for all faiths and non it's
human.

912
00:56:19,650 --> 00:56:22,330
It's who are we?
It's remembering.

913
00:56:22,330 --> 00:56:25,820
Who are we?
And not sort of making any

914
00:56:25,820 --> 00:56:28,540
labels or anything else, but
this is where the evidence is

915
00:56:28,540 --> 00:56:34,540
inviting us to remember.
That you before I go on to the

916
00:56:34,540 --> 00:56:36,340
next portion where I'm going to
talk about the practical

917
00:56:36,340 --> 00:56:40,500
implications as well as the
Eastern philosophical aspects of

918
00:56:40,500 --> 00:56:42,340
how you came to your views at
some point.

919
00:56:42,900 --> 00:56:45,260
The last thing I want to ask you
is, is there anything you want

920
00:56:45,260 --> 00:56:48,380
to clarify in terms of the way
you're approaching for dynamics,

921
00:56:48,980 --> 00:56:51,700
cosmic hologram, all of this,
anything that you feel has

922
00:56:51,700 --> 00:56:55,060
always been misunderstood?
That you've been itching to kind

923
00:56:55,060 --> 00:56:57,900
of just get out there and let
people know This is actually

924
00:56:57,900 --> 00:57:01,660
what I meant.
Not misunderstood, but I feel

925
00:57:01,660 --> 00:57:05,780
that there's still a
misperception of people who work

926
00:57:05,780 --> 00:57:10,860
with entropy and seeing it as
this order to disorder.

927
00:57:10,860 --> 00:57:14,820
I was mentioning earlier rather
than as initially an increase in

928
00:57:14,820 --> 00:57:17,820
energetic microstates and now an
increase in informational

929
00:57:18,380 --> 00:57:22,260
content and now an information
an increase in meaningful

930
00:57:22,340 --> 00:57:26,180
informational content.
Is this perspective that came

931
00:57:26,180 --> 00:57:31,740
through with people like David
Bowman, Picker, Joan and others

932
00:57:32,460 --> 00:57:36,940
realizing that in what's called
a desperative system, such as

933
00:57:37,060 --> 00:57:41,860
our planet and a person that
there seems to be a sort of a a

934
00:57:41,980 --> 00:57:45,980
a switch around of entropy.
So entropy, order, it's not

935
00:57:45,980 --> 00:57:49,290
ordered to disorder, it's
somehow disorders become order.

936
00:57:50,130 --> 00:57:54,450
And So what I've been able to
share and more and more people

937
00:57:54,450 --> 00:57:58,330
are now getting it is it's the
old concept or the misperceived

938
00:57:58,330 --> 00:58:01,850
concept of entropies order to
disorder rather than from

939
00:58:01,890 --> 00:58:05,210
increased energetic States and
now information.

940
00:58:05,530 --> 00:58:10,010
Because then what you realize in
dissipative systems, let's talk

941
00:58:10,010 --> 00:58:13,170
about our planetary home.
Okay, a dissipative system,

942
00:58:13,770 --> 00:58:17,920
actually.
Energy comes in, energy flows

943
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:22,640
through.
What's not needed to support the

944
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,600
homeostasis of that system is
then dissipated.

945
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:32,200
Okay, if you think of that as
information coming in, expresses

946
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:36,760
energy.
Information therefore used as a

947
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:41,560
coherence to, you know, to to
support the coherence of that

948
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:45,720
system and what is not utilized
gets dissipated.

949
00:58:46,130 --> 00:58:51,730
So again that then correlates
with this perception both of

950
00:58:52,850 --> 00:58:56,290
both of the meaningful
information not just as

951
00:58:56,290 --> 00:59:00,610
underpinning, but the very stuff
of that system that that

952
00:59:00,610 --> 00:59:04,890
throughput enables its coherence
through its lifetime, whether

953
00:59:04,890 --> 00:59:07,290
it's a human lifetime or a
planetary lifetime.

954
00:59:08,450 --> 00:59:11,770
But also it shows that then
going back to that third law,

955
00:59:12,330 --> 00:59:17,040
that temperature difference is a
measure of the entropic

956
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:22,920
potential.
Yeah, so that so that in a

957
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:27,120
planetary, you know, if we have
a planet where that dissipative

958
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:30,360
process stops, the temperature
difference between that planet

959
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:35,120
and ambient space will, will,
will reduce, reduce, reduce,

960
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:39,560
reduce, yeah, when we come to
the end of our life cycle, our

961
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:41,640
temperature.
When we die, when our physical

962
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:46,450
bodies die, our temperature then
correlates with our ambience.

963
00:59:46,450 --> 00:59:52,130
So the ability by maintaining a
temperature difference in a

964
00:59:52,130 --> 00:59:56,770
dissipative system is a measure
of its continuing entropic

965
00:59:56,770 --> 00:59:59,210
potential I.
See.

966
00:59:59,210 --> 01:00:02,450
Yeah, yeah, I get that.
It's and.

967
01:00:02,770 --> 01:00:05,610
That's the that's the one thing
that I think people have quite a

968
01:00:05,610 --> 01:00:08,850
lot of, cuz you know, terms like
negentropy and syntropy and all

969
01:00:08,850 --> 01:00:10,930
sorts of stuffs come in, they're
not needed.

970
01:00:11,090 --> 01:00:14,150
When you understand it in these
terms you can appreciate it.

971
01:00:14,150 --> 01:00:18,510
Rather like the epicycles of
medieval astronomy, pre

972
01:00:18,510 --> 01:00:20,870
Copernican astronomy, you don't
need it.

973
01:00:21,030 --> 01:00:25,110
And what you get is a much
simpler understanding when

974
01:00:25,110 --> 01:00:28,990
you're seeing it with new eyes.
So you know the Copernican

975
01:00:29,510 --> 01:00:31,990
putting soul in the middle of
our solar system, Suddenly you

976
01:00:31,990 --> 01:00:36,070
don't need epicycles and all
that complications, and you

977
01:00:36,070 --> 01:00:39,790
don't need the complications of
negentropy and syntropy, which

978
01:00:39,790 --> 01:00:46,810
of themselves, you know, violate
this universal continuing

979
01:00:46,890 --> 01:00:50,290
increase in entropy.
I think, I think it's it's very

980
01:00:50,290 --> 01:00:51,930
apparent.
I mean if you if you have a

981
01:00:51,930 --> 01:00:55,930
hammer, you look for nails and
science, it's very objective.

982
01:00:55,930 --> 01:00:58,410
So you're constantly looking
from an objective standpoint.

983
01:00:58,410 --> 01:01:02,690
I mean, it's very difficult to
get step out of it and I know

984
01:01:02,690 --> 01:01:04,690
I'm the same in that regard
because when I started this

985
01:01:04,690 --> 01:01:08,050
podcast my views and
consciousness were very fixed

986
01:01:08,050 --> 01:01:10,750
and firm.
And the more it's gone on, the

987
01:01:10,750 --> 01:01:13,430
more it's continuously changed
and nonstop.

988
01:01:13,470 --> 01:01:17,350
I mean, at this point I question
reality all the time, but it's

989
01:01:17,350 --> 01:01:20,550
something I've always done.
But I mean, that fixed belief is

990
01:01:20,550 --> 01:01:22,350
no longer there.
It's something that's I'm open

991
01:01:22,350 --> 01:01:26,830
to exploring these new ideas.
I don't think that the child in

992
01:01:26,830 --> 01:01:32,790
me would have explored concepts
like this with so much just

993
01:01:32,790 --> 01:01:35,390
openness.
I love it.

994
01:01:36,990 --> 01:01:36,070
I mean, I love it.
I love it.

995
01:01:36,190 --> 01:01:39,000
And at this?
Yeah, me too.

996
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,040
I mean it's all, it's all a work
in progress.

997
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:44,960
It's all a work in progress.
I mean for me what's exciting is

998
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:49,960
that having had my first direct
experience of of a, you know

999
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:52,960
multidimensional realities, you
know noetic experiences from

1000
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:56,320
major four.
I've I've also it's both.

1001
01:01:56,320 --> 01:02:01,040
And I've also really, really,
really valued, you know, science

1002
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:05,720
is a process as long as is
Francis Bacon, who is the father

1003
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:09,440
of the empirical method.
You know, follow the evidence

1004
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,760
wherever it leads.
And I do feel he's been given a

1005
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:15,760
quite a bad rap, which I would
disagree with because as as a

1006
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:18,360
friend of mine, another friend
of mine, Peter Dawkins, who's a

1007
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:22,400
wonderful Baconian scholar, you
really has guided, you know,

1008
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:27,640
like you you've been My guidance
with this is that, you know, 400

1009
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:33,360
years ago when Bacon in 1623
when they published Day

1010
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:37,450
Augmentum Sientarium, which was
the beginning of the empirical

1011
01:02:37,450 --> 01:02:40,650
method.
You know, Bacon's philosophical,

1012
01:02:40,970 --> 01:02:43,130
deeply philosophical
perspectives.

1013
01:02:43,130 --> 01:02:49,090
It seems to me whether it wasn't
going to peripheralize the

1014
01:02:49,090 --> 01:02:53,570
divine as he would have called
it, but to reveal the divine

1015
01:02:53,570 --> 01:02:56,890
through its empiricism.
Because of course he was living

1016
01:02:56,890 --> 01:03:01,170
in a time of Queen Elizabeth the
2nd and then James the first of

1017
01:03:01,250 --> 01:03:06,200
of England 6th of Scotland,
where superstition, you know,

1018
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:09,480
ruled the ruled, the waves in
that sense and the Church's

1019
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:11,880
authority.
So it's almost come this full

1020
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:16,760
journey now where leading edge
science is, is revealing that

1021
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:21,360
universality and those wisdom,
teachings and the wholeness and

1022
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:23,830
the divinity within everything.
Exactly.

1023
01:03:23,830 --> 01:03:26,790
And I think just to put it all
together, because now as we

1024
01:03:26,790 --> 01:03:30,190
reached the end, well the end of
this podcast, at least for now,

1025
01:03:30,190 --> 01:03:32,990
maybe we'll do around 2:00.
But let's talk about.

1026
01:03:32,990 --> 01:03:38,590
I mean unity and non locality is
the basis of all of this, and at

1027
01:03:38,590 --> 01:03:41,190
some point it all comes together
for us to understand and realize

1028
01:03:41,190 --> 01:03:43,310
that everything is
interconnected.

1029
01:03:44,350 --> 01:03:48,020
There is no separation.
This thought of separating

1030
01:03:48,020 --> 01:03:51,420
things needs to slowly
dissipate, and this does have

1031
01:03:51,420 --> 01:03:54,340
practical implications, I think,
as we get into that.

1032
01:03:54,340 --> 01:03:57,260
Let's start from your E, the
Eastern philosophy that's

1033
01:03:57,580 --> 01:04:00,780
inspired this and taken, because
we've spoken a lot about Western

1034
01:04:00,780 --> 01:04:02,820
science at this point.
And I'm curious for you to apply

1035
01:04:02,820 --> 01:04:06,220
the Eastern philosophy into how
we should approach the practical

1036
01:04:06,460 --> 01:04:08,820
and ethical implications moving
forward with this theory.

1037
01:04:09,620 --> 01:04:12,740
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, first of all, as you say

1038
01:04:12,740 --> 01:04:17,560
Tev, I mean you know, our
worldview is, is our mindset,

1039
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:21,720
our narrative, our underpinning
narrative is the way we see the

1040
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:23,680
world and therefore the choices
we make.

1041
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:28,160
And we've had a a Western
secular world view of of of, as

1042
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:32,080
I say, based on 19th century
science and all the structures

1043
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:34,640
that came from that.
Because in the 19th century with

1044
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:39,920
that mechanistic, separatist,
materialistic perspective, you

1045
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:42,120
know, our structures became
hierarchical.

1046
01:04:43,380 --> 01:04:45,660
You know, whether it's our
education, whether it's our

1047
01:04:45,660 --> 01:04:50,140
organizations, our governance or
whatever, whatever, whatever,

1048
01:04:50,140 --> 01:04:53,500
whatever.
And now that's completely being

1049
01:04:53,500 --> 01:04:56,460
turned on its head and and
converging much more with

1050
01:04:56,460 --> 01:05:00,100
universal wisdom teachings and
and very much those of of the

1051
01:05:00,100 --> 01:05:03,700
Eastern traditions and the
indigenous traditions.

1052
01:05:04,300 --> 01:05:07,900
And so you know, for example the
Chinese iching talks about in

1053
01:05:07,900 --> 01:05:12,590
the beginning is the one not was
is the one becomes 2, the two

1054
01:05:12,590 --> 01:05:16,030
becomes 3:00 and from the three,
10,000 things are born.

1055
01:05:16,470 --> 01:05:20,070
You know the in Yang symbol, we
haven't even touched on the

1056
01:05:20,070 --> 01:05:24,510
feminine, masculine and all of
that, but that's so important.

1057
01:05:25,470 --> 01:05:29,710
But you know the in Yang symbol
has, you know, the the the the

1058
01:05:29,710 --> 01:05:32,910
Yang with the yin coming out and
the yin with the Yang coming

1059
01:05:32,910 --> 01:05:35,910
out.
But the wave in that symbol is

1060
01:05:35,910 --> 01:05:40,030
often not mentioned.
But the wave is that creativity

1061
01:05:40,590 --> 01:05:43,430
of what this all means.
And yeah, I talk a lot about

1062
01:05:43,430 --> 01:05:47,350
trinities, philosophically
trinities, you know, the masque

1063
01:05:47,350 --> 01:05:50,510
in the feminine and the child
and in that resolution.

1064
01:05:50,510 --> 01:05:54,230
And that's again, seen through
many, many traditions.

1065
01:05:55,190 --> 01:05:57,990
We talk about the Vedic
tradition as we have before

1066
01:05:57,990 --> 01:06:01,190
Indra's net.
You know, the tradition talks of

1067
01:06:01,190 --> 01:06:06,160
Indra's net as an analogy of a
reality where every you know

1068
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:11,440
reality made-up of of beautiful
gems, of many many different

1069
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:15,960
colors and all different facets,
and each facet reflecting others

1070
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:20,400
and linked by golden threads.
Well, that is a millennia old

1071
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:23,400
description in my perspective,
of the cosmic holograms.

1072
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:30,080
In South Africa we cuz I'm
Indian, of Hindu and descent and

1073
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:33,720
but it was born and raised in
South Africa and the South

1074
01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:35,000
African culture.
There's this word.

1075
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:37,280
It's called Ubuntu.
I love that word.

1076
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:39,600
I love that.
I am, because you are.

1077
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:41,840
And I think that's exactly what
you're saying.

1078
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:45,960
Yeah, it's exactly that.
And Ubuntu is so beautifully

1079
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:49,630
inviting in, because the other
thing is that I love about

1080
01:06:49,630 --> 01:06:51,590
Ubuntu.
Many things I love about Ubuntu,

1081
01:06:52,070 --> 01:06:55,630
but I talk about, you know,
often we're now describing unity

1082
01:06:55,630 --> 01:06:59,390
and diversity.
But for a number of years now

1083
01:06:59,390 --> 01:07:03,990
I've said let's take that a step
further, beyond even Unity in

1084
01:07:03,990 --> 01:07:09,030
inclusion to unity in belonging.
Because what this is showing us

1085
01:07:09,030 --> 01:07:13,310
that we all belong.
And that is the very heart of

1086
01:07:13,310 --> 01:07:16,790
Ubuntu.
Yes, Ubuntu is so fundamental

1087
01:07:16,790 --> 01:07:19,630
because you don't have to be
invited into that relationship.

1088
01:07:20,070 --> 01:07:24,750
You are inherently,
fundamentally part of that

1089
01:07:24,750 --> 01:07:26,590
relationship.
And this is what we're

1090
01:07:26,590 --> 01:07:30,230
discovering.
And so altogether, I mean this

1091
01:07:30,350 --> 01:07:34,670
unification, this.
Tell me about the overall goal

1092
01:07:34,670 --> 01:07:37,310
for us as a society.
How would you like this

1093
01:07:37,630 --> 01:07:40,310
infodynamics and everything
you've spoken about today to be

1094
01:07:40,310 --> 01:07:46,500
applied somehow into it all?
Well, it again, these things.

1095
01:07:47,060 --> 01:07:49,940
Have you ever heard of somebody
called Mr. Magoo?

1096
01:07:50,060 --> 01:07:51,740
He's very much in in America,
yeah.

1097
01:07:52,180 --> 01:07:54,660
And he always backs into things
and then looks round and goes,

1098
01:07:54,660 --> 01:08:02,560
oh, that's the story of my life.
I think so a couple of years ago

1099
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:06,480
with all of this and writing the
cosmic hologram at the time and

1100
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:09,400
then the story of Garra, sorry,
writing the story of Garra at

1101
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:10,800
the time, Cosmic hologramma come
out.

1102
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:15,880
I came together with a number of
of change makers and folks

1103
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:21,040
who've been involved with United
Nations for decades and involved

1104
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:24,439
with the Sustainable Development
Goals and what's called Agenda

1105
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:27,319
2030.
And we're getting more and more

1106
01:08:27,319 --> 01:08:30,979
frustrated because this
realization that they were

1107
01:08:30,979 --> 01:08:33,660
coming not necessarily from the
people who were trying to

1108
01:08:33,660 --> 01:08:37,460
negotiate them, but certainly
the way they were articulated

1109
01:08:37,460 --> 01:08:41,180
and then, you know, let out very
much from this siloed

1110
01:08:41,180 --> 01:08:44,500
perspective.
You know, seventeen goals and

1111
01:08:44,779 --> 01:08:49,140
lots of measurements, but the
goals themselves and the

1112
01:08:49,140 --> 01:08:54,500
realization from these 150 or so
change makers that they could

1113
01:08:54,500 --> 01:08:57,670
never be implemented with that
sort of mindset.

1114
01:08:57,670 --> 01:09:00,750
I mean, Einstein said, you know,
you can't solve a problem from

1115
01:09:00,750 --> 01:09:02,510
the same mindset that created
it.

1116
01:09:03,069 --> 01:09:06,870
Well, we have a we have a
problem because of an illusion

1117
01:09:06,870 --> 01:09:10,229
of separation, a disease of
separation.

1118
01:09:10,390 --> 01:09:13,350
We cannot solve it from that
same mindset.

1119
01:09:13,590 --> 01:09:17,109
So all that I'm sharing and all
that the evidence is pointing to

1120
01:09:17,390 --> 01:09:21,630
is overturning that perspective
and and bringing in this

1121
01:09:21,630 --> 01:09:25,870
realization and understanding of
wholeness.

1122
01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:30,840
So what these folks were really
wanting to say is how can

1123
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:32,600
because they were coming from
this perspective.

1124
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:37,479
How can we bring this
perspective of wholeness into

1125
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:41,720
the SDG's an Agenda 2030.
And one of the things that came

1126
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:46,600
forward was the need for a
narrative that could share this.

1127
01:09:47,270 --> 01:09:48,790
Because we're a narrative
species.

1128
01:09:48,790 --> 01:09:52,510
We're storytelling species, You
know, we sit, we sat round, you

1129
01:09:52,510 --> 01:09:55,630
know, from the very beginning
sharing stories and sharing

1130
01:09:55,830 --> 01:09:59,390
perspectives.
Who we are and what are we?

1131
01:09:59,390 --> 01:10:01,190
Who are we in the world?
Where do we come from?

1132
01:10:01,390 --> 01:10:02,350
Who are we?
Where are we going?

1133
01:10:02,910 --> 01:10:07,790
And you know, in that sense,
making meaning of our existence.

1134
01:10:08,270 --> 01:10:12,710
So we now have the evidence that
is converging, the scientific

1135
01:10:12,710 --> 01:10:17,470
evidence that's converging with
universal wisdom teachings to

1136
01:10:17,470 --> 01:10:22,510
offer as a unitive narrative to
underpin and frame us, to be

1137
01:10:22,510 --> 01:10:25,710
able to come together and and
serve potentiality for

1138
01:10:25,710 --> 01:10:28,110
transformational change.
So I got involved with this

1139
01:10:28,110 --> 01:10:31,270
group of folks and I I put my
hand up and volunteered.

1140
01:10:32,150 --> 01:10:34,950
That's my mom.
My mom always said volunteer,

1141
01:10:34,950 --> 01:10:37,710
volunteer.
You may not know what you're

1142
01:10:37,710 --> 01:10:40,950
volunteering for, but volunteer.
So I did, and I was.

1143
01:10:41,030 --> 01:10:47,450
I was one of the coauthors of a
unit of narrative that these

1144
01:10:47,450 --> 01:10:50,490
folks took on board and adopted,
and the evolutionary leader

1145
01:10:50,490 --> 01:10:53,130
circle of whom I remember also
adopted and others.

1146
01:10:53,730 --> 01:10:57,810
But what that's now doing, that
came forward just over a year

1147
01:10:57,810 --> 01:11:02,050
ago, what that's done in the
meantime is that late last year

1148
01:11:02,090 --> 01:11:05,730
the United Nations, for the
first time in its seventy year

1149
01:11:05,730 --> 01:11:12,510
history, adopted a group of
NGO's and organizations founded

1150
01:11:12,550 --> 01:11:15,070
on the unit of narrative, this
unit of narrative.

1151
01:11:15,470 --> 01:11:22,310
And so this unit of cluster now
has a voice, has voices in all

1152
01:11:22,310 --> 01:11:23,950
of the things that United
Nations are doing.

1153
01:11:23,950 --> 01:11:26,870
But that's just one thing,
because the other thing it's now

1154
01:11:26,870 --> 01:11:31,150
underpinning is bringing
together folks who are really

1155
01:11:31,150 --> 01:11:36,610
wanting to transform economics
and finance system from a

1156
01:11:36,610 --> 01:11:39,930
unitive perspective.
You know folks who look at

1157
01:11:39,930 --> 01:11:45,810
regenerative economics, donut
economics, living systems

1158
01:11:45,850 --> 01:11:49,370
economics, but all of it under
pinned and framed by unitive

1159
01:11:49,370 --> 01:11:55,050
narrative that then deepens it
still further into unitive

1160
01:11:55,050 --> 01:12:00,930
principles that serves the
health the whole being of our

1161
01:12:00,930 --> 01:12:04,370
planetary home and our people.
Unitive education.

1162
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:09,880
How do we share this story with
folks of all ages and in so many

1163
01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:14,520
different ways and and and how
do we share this in ways through

1164
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:19,000
arts and and and culture?
Because this is what this is

1165
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:21,440
about.
This is the many, many stories

1166
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:25,840
that can arise and be shared
from this underpinning of a

1167
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:30,200
unitive narrative.
So that's what I'm doing pretty

1168
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:35,550
much most of my time now and
sharing this this understanding,

1169
01:12:35,550 --> 01:12:39,630
but it's vital that it moves
beyond understanding.

1170
01:12:39,910 --> 01:12:43,550
Yes, it has to be experienced to
be embodied.

1171
01:12:43,990 --> 01:12:46,910
Well I hope this this podcast
helps to get that message out.

1172
01:12:46,910 --> 01:12:49,550
Dude I know it's I know you're
time sensitive and and we've

1173
01:12:49,550 --> 01:12:53,110
sort of reached the end of this
conversation but I just want to

1174
01:12:53,110 --> 01:12:55,830
say thank you so much and to
quote I mean your work and

1175
01:12:55,830 --> 01:12:59,190
obviously Ubuntu, I am a cosmic
Co creator because you are a

1176
01:12:59,190 --> 01:13:02,150
cosmic crow creator and and
thank you so much for.

1177
01:13:02,770 --> 01:13:04,930
Being part of this creation with
me and a part of this

1178
01:13:04,930 --> 01:13:07,650
experience.
Bless you Tav.

1179
01:13:07,650 --> 01:13:11,450
And it's folks like you.
I mean, I've done so many

1180
01:13:11,450 --> 01:13:16,250
podcasts now and I'm in awe of
each and every one of you as

1181
01:13:16,250 --> 01:13:22,450
hosts because your passion, your
clarity, your service is so, so

1182
01:13:22,450 --> 01:13:26,570
important because the folks you
will reach in their own way

1183
01:13:26,570 --> 01:13:28,970
will, you know, share this in
their own way.

1184
01:13:29,050 --> 01:13:33,170
We don't know where this
ripples, but we know it does

1185
01:13:33,370 --> 01:13:37,370
because as you say, Ubuntu, we
are inseparable.

1186
01:13:37,450 --> 01:13:40,090
We are each unique and we are
inseparable.

1187
01:13:40,490 --> 01:13:44,010
And you know, this offers us
authentic hope.

1188
01:13:44,010 --> 01:13:47,050
This, I hope, empowers us and
inspires us.

1189
01:13:47,050 --> 01:13:49,210
And this, for me seems that this
is the invitation of the

1190
01:13:49,210 --> 01:13:52,370
universe and our planetary home
guy.

1191
01:13:52,490 --> 01:13:56,510
You know, they say come on items
to this adventure.

1192
01:13:57,150 --> 01:13:59,070
Does that be one of the most
inspirational?

1193
01:13:59,070 --> 01:14:01,670
Well, I'm feeling well inspired.
One of the most inspirational

1194
01:14:01,670 --> 01:14:04,830
talks I've had so far on this
part, so thank you.

1195
01:14:04,830 --> 01:14:07,390
I like it so far, cuz there may
be others that are even more

1196
01:14:07,390 --> 01:14:09,910
inspirational to come.
Yeah.

1197
01:14:09,910 --> 01:14:11,390
No, I've enjoyed it
tremendously.

1198
01:14:11,390 --> 01:14:14,150
Thank you so much, Jude.
I wish you all the best.

1199
01:14:14,150 --> 01:14:16,390
And yeah, I'm looking forward to
chatting to you again sometime.

1200
01:14:17,030 --> 01:14:19,350
I'd love that, Tev.
Anytime.

1201
01:14:19,630 --> 01:14:22,550
I'd love that.
So much take care, Jude.

1202
01:14:22,550 --> 01:14:25,770
And yeah, we'll keep in touch.
I'm looking forward to this

1203
01:14:25,770 --> 01:14:27,890
hearing.
Cheers, Thanks.