James Cooke: How Did Matter Become Conscious & Alive? Living Mirrors Theory & The Dawn of Mind

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The reason I love science when
it comes to the spirituality

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stuff is that with science, you
have to show you're working.

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You have to kind of lay out in
public and have other people

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scrutinize it and be open to
criticism and open to feedback.

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It's that fundamental openness
that shows you're not hiding

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anything, You're not pulling any
tricks here in spirituality,

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people often talk about like
light and love and all this like

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illumination stuff, which is,
you know, good terminology for

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direct to what's involved in
bringing awareness to one's

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mind.
But also science is also a kind

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of illumination.
It's a, it's a shedding light,

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being open to scrutiny and
feedback.

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It's not surprising to me that
science and spirituality go

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together nicely, that the more
we discover about the brain and

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the self and how it's
constructed, it fits with

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ancient wisdom.
And in ancient times, perhaps it

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wasn't necessarily tough
science.

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But at this point people,
understandably, they need a bit

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more reassurance that there's no
kind of nonsense going on.

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So yeah, I think it's an
exciting time for the science

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and spirituality.
James, I'm I'm a sucker for

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symmetry and I love the way you
said that in your book.

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The dawn of mind, how matter
became conscious and alive.

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You set it out into two parts,
inside out, which is the

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philosophy of science and
outside in the science of

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consciousness.
I mean, sorry, the philosophy of

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consciousness and outside in the
science of consciousness.

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And I love that because it's 7
chapters each and you start off

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by defining concepts, which I
think is always the best way to

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start session a book, podcast,
whatever.

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So James, let's start.
How do you define consciousness,

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the self and life?
Yeah, start with easy questions.

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Yeah.
So consciousness, you kind of

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have to gesture towards that,
really.

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We can't really give a hard
definition.

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A popular definition, which I
like, is Thomas Nagel's idea

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that it's like something.
If it's like something to be

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something, then it's conscious.
So if we think a rock, if I was

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to scramble your atoms and
rearrange them into a rock, if

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the lights went out, if there
was no experience, no feeling,

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then you would be conscious.
So whereas if you think another

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person isn't a robot, isn't some
inert mechanism that has no

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feeling, then they're conscious.
So you can also see here that

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I'm gesturing towards other
definitions like feeling,

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experience.
Fundamentally, it's something

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very simple.
It's the ability to take in the

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blue of the sky, to know, to
recognize this as a sound of my

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voice in this moment, the fact
the lights are on.

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So those, those are the best
ways I can kind of gesture

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towards it.
And it's something that is the

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most intimate thing for any of
us because it's, it's the, yeah,

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it's the capacity to experience
anything.

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So something's conscious.
If it's not an inert mechanism

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where nothing happens
experientially, then with life.

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Seems to me that life is, I
mean, famously we haven't come

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to a kind of universally
accepted definition of life.

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To me, life is characterized by
a living thing is something

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that's kind of holistically
integrated.

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It's a whole that's kind of more
than the sum of its parts.

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And that can function in a way
to it has the autonomy or the

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agency to act in order to avoid
death, to self perpetuate.

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That's the those are the key
features for me.

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So it's a self persisting
pattern.

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In reality, there are other
things that persist for a time

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like whirlpools, tornadoes, but
life has this autonomy, this

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agency where it can set goals
and and can then take steps to

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change its circumstances to keep
itself going.

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So there's an extra level there
of self persistence where

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there's some kind of level of
recursion where it can can

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actively engage in that.
So if a if if when you drained

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your bath, the Whirlpool managed
to reach up and turn the tap on

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to keep the water gradient
flowing, that would be the kind

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of thing that life does.
You know, we humans have spread

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out to new environments and
found new ways to live and that

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kind of autonomy.
What was the third thing you

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wanted a definition of?
Self.

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Self.
Self is the hardest to define

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because it's.
I actually don't think it really

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exists as a thing, but it's when
we use that word, the thing that

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we think exists is the best way
to point to it is if you say

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something like who is aware of
these words right now?

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What is the me?
What is The Who is the one that

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is aware?
And in as many spiritual

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traditions, particularly
Buddhism plays itself very

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clearly when you and also advice
Vedanto in Hinduism, when you

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look for that self, you can
discover it's not an actual

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existing thing the way you
expect to find the self.

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You actually find a kind of an
openness, you could say, or a

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boundlessness and or a freedom.
And that's where this connects

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with spirituality and the actual
possibility of unburdening one's

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suffering.
And yes, it's almost like the

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you start with that question,
who am I?

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And then you're the, you look
for The Who, you look for the I.

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And then it gets replaced with
just the question, just the

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opening, the curiosity.
And there can be that discovery

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that it might be more accurate
to say that that's what you are.

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Is that open curiosity rather
than some solid self?

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We'll put on the on the illusory
self more in just a moment, but

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I like the fact in the book you,
you go through what you call the

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view, the view from the from a
dead end and you manage to

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explain consciousness, all the
various versions of it.

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What is your philosophical
understanding of the mind body

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problem and how?
How do you frame this over the

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years and has it changed over
time?

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Yeah.
So it hasn't changed that much,

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I think.
I guess it only changed in its

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subtleties in terms of when,
when the solution became clear

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to me, I said to really see
clearly what was wrong with the

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assumptions.
I think before that I was

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carrying some assumptions and I
had to interrogate them as the,

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the, the kind of solution I'm
offering came into view.

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So the way I would articulate it
now is to say that so when in

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modern times, when this, when
people started being concerned

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with the gap between matter and
mind, a car input, who was a

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famous philosopher who spoke
about this example of if you

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walked inside a mill, like a,
you know, you imagine this a

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mill that's powered by water
turning a turbine, and then it

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moves, you know, structures
inside purely mechanical, you

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know, things moving in
three-dimensional space,

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material objects.
And they were saying, if you

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expanded a human body and you
walked around inside it, you

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walked inside, inside the brain
and you saw these parts moving.

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Where are you going to find
experiences?

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Where are you going to find the
taste of coffee, the blue of the

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sky, the feeling of love?
And and to that, I think that is

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the kind of modern formulation
where you have a kind of

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Newtonian view of the physical
world as objects moving in

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space, you know, physical things
like a turbine or an atom, and

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they move around and that's
what's real.

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And so this is reductionism, the
idea that those those things,

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it's kind of materialism and
reductionism there is a material

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substance called matter.
And yeah, it moving around in

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space is what's what's most
real.

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And we also see this with
Laplace, the idea that the

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totality of existence is just,
if you knew all the positions of

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the atoms unfolding, you would
know everything by existence.

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So in that picture, if that's
what you think reality is, and

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then you have the experience of
yeah, the taste of coffee, what

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story are you going to tell?
So to me, the gap is between

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storytelling.
We have one story of matter and

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then we have story of minds.
Yeah, taste of coffee, brew the

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sky.
And those stories don't play

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nice together because they seem
to be immaterial.

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They.
The taste of coffee doesn't seem

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to be an object moving around in
three-dimensional space that can

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be captured by Newton's laws of
motion.

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You know, So, and this is an
important point, the gap isn't

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there is a gap between the world
in itself and our maps of it or

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our experience of it.
Like we should never expect our

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maps of the world to swallow up
reality itself.

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And sometimes people can think
that's what the gap is that

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we're trying to cross.
But to me, the gap is in our in

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our storytelling, our
understanding.

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We want our understanding of the
world to cohere.

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And so, yeah, those stories
don't play nicely together.

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And so Ioffer a different story,
which is based around a kind of

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relational world view where I
think if you see matter as

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relationship and you see
consciousness as relationship,

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those stories play very nicely
together.

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They're just extensions of the
same story.

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So that's the kind of solution
Ioffer.

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And you you call the solution a
a almost a bio psychic theory of

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consciousness.
You want to perhaps jump

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straight into that?
Because yeah, yeah.

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To sort of define this concept
for people in case they don't

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really capture this essence of a
relational theory of

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consciousness.
Yeah.

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So, yeah.
So I argue in the book for

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biopsychism, this idea that this
was a time coined by Ernst

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Heckel in the early 20th
century.

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And interestingly, he wasn't
actually a biopsychist.

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He was a pan psychicist.
And he, he tried to lay out a

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kind of taxonomy of different
positions one might hold.

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As I was doing this in the book,
I went through different

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positions and I, I realized
chemo psychism is something I've

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never heard about, but it should
probably be on the table, the

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idea that maybe organic, you
know, maybe molecules are where

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it's at.
But for some reason, no one's

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ever really, as far as I know,
no one's ever suggested that you

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have panpsychism, that maybe
atoms are, and I'm saying

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biological systems, but not
something in between.

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So my commitment to biopsychism
came out of this relational view

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because so we can get into the
physics a bit later, but for now

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we can just say that there is a
mainstream interpretation of

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physics that sees matter as
relationship.

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They're not seeing atoms or sub
tonic particles as solid locally

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real things.
And actually, you know,

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physicists won the Nobel Prize a
few years ago for discovering

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that particles are not locally
real.

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So they're not these actually
pre-existing material objects

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that are just there to be looked
at.

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They we are part of the web of
interactions that is the, the

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physical world.
So this is not some fringe

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weird, you know, stance.
And Cholera Valley is one of the

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leading proponents of this
relational view, a leading

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physicist.
So I think this is rather kind

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of mainstream vision that's
coming into view rather than

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something fringe.
So then if you see experience

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consciousness as relationship,
for me, it's, it's the way that

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the Organism interacts with its
environment.

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It's a feeling out in the world.
That is what consciousness is,

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is that dynamic and so on.
A more you could say on a more

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kind of metaphysical level, you
could say if you zoom out to the

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whole picture of existence,
because obviously we are an

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emanation, we are a
manifestation of existence.

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We are fully part of the
universe.

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You could say more poetically
that through life, the universe

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comes to know itself.
We are the kind of the leading

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edge of, of knowledge in the
universe.

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We are the eyes with those
universities.

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So I think this is also why, you
know, in the book I point to

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kind of synthesizing science and
spirituality because with this

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view, you can, it's a linchpin
where you can go One Direction

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and you can tell a very
scientific grounded story about

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organisms and brains and, and
sense, you know, eyes and

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sensation and just how we think
of experiences depending on the

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physical Organism in a very
conventional way.

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But then you can also understand
why it is that you can use

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consciousness to zoom out to
this more unitive oneness kind

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of vision.
And they don't contradict each

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other.
But I think if you if you move

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away from life as being this
point of relationship and then

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you want to, you want to somehow
confine consciousness to the

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brain or to the nervous system,
that act of separation.

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You're, you're kind of, you're
when people think it's something

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to do with the brain, a common
view is, is computational

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functionism, the idea that it
must be some something that's

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kind of substrate independent,
some computation that's running

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on on the brain.
And that's that's a whole that's

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all kind of kind of worms that
people haven't been able to

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figure out how that could
possibly work.

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And whereas I think you just
avoid those problems if you, if

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you go with this embodied view
of life as being the the point

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of here contact, that's another
way of talking about

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consciousness.
It's a kind of point of contact

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between one part of reality and
another part of reality.

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When, when I think about at some
point you talk about the human

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exceptionalism.
And, and I also found that

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fascinating when I wrote my
dissertation, it was something I

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focused on quite a bit, how
we're so obsessed with this,

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this our perception and how
value, how much of value we

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00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:55,760
place in this.
And it's very apparent.

243
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,560
I mean, we've always done this
throughout history.

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If we look at certain, the more
we learnt about the heart as a

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pump, we start to look at things
very much as pumps and water

246
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,880
systems that slowly electricity
comes through quick professional

247
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,280
models of consciousness.
At this point, Bayesian rains

248
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,880
and it's very difficult for
humans to escape this view.

249
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Why do you think that is?
I think the so the human

250
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exception is kind of instinct to
think that we're at the centre

251
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of everything and we're
important, I think.

252
00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,640
Well, the first thing to say is
that we're not as rational as

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we'd hope.
We, we are perhaps, you know, we

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rationality is a wonderful thing
and it and it's it's, yeah, I

255
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,520
love it, but it's it's built.
It's it's built on top of a huge

256
00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:38,720
kind of ocean of emotional
instinct.

257
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We are and, you know, we see
this in this has been cashed out

258
00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:45,520
kind of thoroughly in
neuroscience that we.

259
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Yeah, our decision making is
shaped a lot by emotion and as

260
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systems that want to survive
want to focus on ourselves to

261
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some extent, you know, there's
like a balance between

262
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collaboration and competition in
in nature to help, you know,

263
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,200
systems survive.
And I think in certain

264
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:09,960
situations that selfish me
focused instinct just yeah,

265
00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,520
plays out and it's playing out
at a kind of cultural level, I

266
00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:19,200
think where, yeah, there's a
sense of we want to focus on

267
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ourselves and and see the rest
of nature as separate.

268
00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,280
So, you know, I go in the book
about the modern scientific

269
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,320
world view and the modern kind
of industrial technological

270
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,160
civilization came out of a very
specific time in European

271
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,520
culture.
And that can be contrasted with

272
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:35,520
indigenous cultures where
there's a lot more kind of

273
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reciprocity with the natural
world, not a sense of

274
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superiority and of domination.
And so I think I also even go in

275
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:44,800
the book into the kind of
history and speculate about

276
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,360
things like the plague and and
conflict and stuff like that.

277
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,480
I think can lead people into a
more egoic, self focused or even

278
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,800
whole cultures into modes of
like things are bad and we need

279
00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,480
to get power, we need to empower
ourselves to survive.

280
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:04,640
And I think those kinds of
dynamics play out, yeah, in

281
00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:09,400
different cultures and lead to
these these, yeah, behaviors of

282
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,080
human exceptionalism and ways of
seeing the world.

283
00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:13,760
But, you know, as indigenous
cultures point to, they don't

284
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:15,720
have to be there.
We can move on from them.

285
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:20,960
And I think, I think it's more,
you know, we saw with Galileo

286
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:23,920
that we're not at the center of
our solar system.

287
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:25,680
And we saw with Darwin that
we're not fundamentally

288
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:26,920
different from other living
things.

289
00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:28,800
I think consciousness is the
last hold out for.

290
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,320
Well, surely with experience,
we're, we're, you know, special.

291
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,160
It seems funny to me that people
would put experience as the

292
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,520
thing that we're special because
clearly we're very intelligent.

293
00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,560
We may be.
That may be what we're truly

294
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,720
exceptional.
But like, the ability to see the

295
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,400
blue of the sky or to feel pain
is like feeling is feels such a

296
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:51,440
primordial sensory thing to me.
That is like, it doesn't.

297
00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,640
It seems odd that you would
claim a worm can't feel anything

298
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,560
or that.
Yeah.

299
00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,320
I mean, lots of people even get
uncomfortable with any insects

300
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,200
or even mammals kind of, you
know, simpler than us.

301
00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,200
But yeah, that's where we're at.
I think that we're clinging on

302
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,080
to something special, some
narrative that we're we're

303
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:10,160
unique and special in some way.
You're.

304
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:15,240
You're talking to me very
important in that culturally

305
00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,360
it's been very different.
I mean, you, you, you mentioned

306
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,880
Buddhism, Advaita Pedata and,
and it's very clear that, I

307
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,560
mean, every YouTube comment
section or comment section in

308
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,360
general, you'll find a Buddhist
or a, or someone practicing

309
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,840
Hinduism, Advaita Pedanta who
will bring up the fact that for

310
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,680
years now they've been thinking
this is something that they've

311
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,040
always been talking about.
Do you think that?

312
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,800
Well, obviously at the time they
did not have the scientific

313
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,760
method to sort of put this all
together into a great framework

314
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,760
with the high explanatory power.
But do you think we're reaching

315
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,920
a point where a lot of these
ancient concepts coming together

316
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,960
with these modern techniques,
we're able to guide mysticism

317
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,560
and spirituality in a more
scientific manner that allows

318
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,320
people to have a more open mind?
This.

319
00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:58,960
Yeah.
So that's, I would say that's

320
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,000
the, the hope that drives me or
the, rather than the hope, the,

321
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,359
the instinct to try to actualize
that, to make that a reality.

322
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,599
Because I do believe there's,
there's a, there, there's like,

323
00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:15,560
it's one thing to have someone
who has deep insight and has

324
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,200
wisdom to share, but then sits
on their throne and, and just

325
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,280
says, just trust me that my
experience is different to

326
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,040
yours.
And then you get into all the

327
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,480
kind of gross power dynamics and
abusive stuff you see like

328
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,960
gurus.
And so we saw that play out in

329
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,760
the late 20th century.
And I think people are a lot of

330
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,760
people are fed up with that.
A lot of people don't, you know,

331
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:39,960
And the thing that, yeah, always
drove me is by temperament, I'm

332
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,160
the kind of person who would run
100 miles from any of that

333
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,840
stuff.
I'm not interested, yeah, in the

334
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,640
aesthetics of it or the kind of
the vibe of that kind of thing.

335
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,560
And so I.
But yet I I've, you know,

336
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,000
discovered to myself the reality
of of, you know, state of

337
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,840
consciousness that are, yeah.
Free from suffering.

338
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,480
And so there is this desire to
be like, OK, well, how can we?

339
00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:05,120
The reason I love science when
it comes to the spirituality

340
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:07,560
stuff is that with science you
have to show you're working.

341
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,160
You have to kind of lay out in
public and have other people

342
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,640
scrutinize it and be open to
criticism and open to feedback.

343
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,000
It's that fundamental openness
that shows you're not hiding

344
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,280
anything, you're not pulling any
tricks.

345
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:18,720
You're not.
Yeah.

346
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,240
And so it's like here in
spirituality, people often talk

347
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,560
about like light and love and
all this like illumination

348
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,560
stuff, which is, you know, good
terminology for direct to what's

349
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:30,800
involved in bringing awareness
to one's mind.

350
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,440
But also science is also a kind
of illumination.

351
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,400
It's a it's a shedding light.
Yeah.

352
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,960
It's like, you know, yeah.
Like being the kind of best

353
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,600
disinfectant in terms of being
open to scrutiny and feedback.

354
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:47,040
So yeah.
And more and more people are

355
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,000
doing this.
I think if we can flesh out,

356
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,760
it's not surprising to me that
science and spirituality go

357
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,520
together nicely, that the more
we discover about the brain and

358
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,680
the self and how it's
constructed, it fits with

359
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,280
ancient wisdom around this.
And in ancient times, perhaps it

360
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:02,400
wasn't necessary to have
science.

361
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,760
But at this point, people,
understandably, they need a bit

362
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,720
more reassurance that there's no
kind of nonsense going on.

363
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:12,680
So yeah, I think it's an
exciting time for the synthesis

364
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,760
of science and spirituality.
I agree that it's a lot more

365
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:22,000
scientists are less afraid of
the Albert love, and talking

366
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:23,960
about it seems to be a lot more
easier for them.

367
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:25,640
Yeah, because.
But there was a time where I

368
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,280
can't clearly remember people
just avoiding this altogether.

369
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,920
Now, you serious scientists
talking about things like

370
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,720
teleonomy, Purpose meaning.
Well, how do you see the purpose

371
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:45,520
and meaning of the universe?
Yeah, so I interestingly my one

372
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,720
of the ways I see science and
spirituality matching up.

373
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,600
You can see the the kind of
spiritual.

374
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:54,120
What I mean when I talk about
spirituality is is discovering

375
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,160
non separation, really
discovering that you're not this

376
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,880
separate self, something that's
that needs to struggle with

377
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,800
existence that you can you can
discover your deeper nature to

378
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,440
just be beingness the same thing
as the rest of existence.

379
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,440
And when you when you kind of
let go into that purpose and

380
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,720
meaning actually fall away and
they're seen to be.

381
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,120
Constructs that they're a core
part of being a living thing

382
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:18,360
that I mentioned before, living
things as being kind of goal

383
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:21,640
directed oriented towards, yeah,
the fundamental goal of staying

384
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:23,000
alive.
And then you scaffold other

385
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,240
goals and perhaps on top of
that.

386
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:30,880
But when you let go into a kind
of a deeper level reality feels

387
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,120
like play and play doesn't have
a purpose.

388
00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:36,120
It's, it's a kind of a
fundamental, it feels like you

389
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,200
discover that all they exist is
a kind of cosmic creative

390
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,640
principle of just purposeless
play.

391
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,440
And, and that's really
liberating.

392
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,320
It's meaningless in the most
wonderful way because meaning is

393
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,280
a real burden.
Like thinking that you really

394
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,880
have to like get this right.
There's a, that is the burden

395
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,960
of, of meaning making and
purpose.

396
00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:58,960
So that's always been my
orientation.

397
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,360
Now if someone were to kind of
point out that, as I said

398
00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:04,880
before, we are fully part of the
universe and we exhibit purpose.

399
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,520
So isn't there something there
around the universe showing

400
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,160
purpose?
That hasn't been my orientation

401
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:15,040
and I'm wary around it because
the self structure that media

402
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,040
suffering so badly wants to
cling on to its struggle and to

403
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,680
its purpose that, you know, so I
I often just kind of say, yeah,

404
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,160
so I set that and think I'm
pointing this direction of

405
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,400
letting go of purpose.
But I'm open to the possibility

406
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,560
that there could be maybe a
synthesis on offer there where

407
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,840
there's some validity to to
seeing the universe that way.

408
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,840
But typically, I think purpose
is something that exists in our

409
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:44,000
in our minds, and there is
actually a burden that that is

410
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,240
good to be liberated from and
that the universe doesn't need

411
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,760
to be going anywhere.
You could say it's a vision of

412
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:53,400
circularity where, yeah, there
isn't really progress or, or any

413
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,240
meaningful destination.
It's just the play in the

414
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,720
present moment.
It's someone you mentioned

415
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,880
demystifying mysticism.
Is that really possible?

416
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:08,560
Yeah, yeah.
It's funny because I language

417
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,760
again with a core aspect of
spirituality as well as seeing

418
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,720
that concepts, reality is non
conceptual concepts arise to

419
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,880
your language and they serve to
seemingly divide up the world

420
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,720
into different objects.
And so when you see this again,

421
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,360
I mentioned the map is not the
territory that our ideas about

422
00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:28,600
reality is not reality itself.
And so when you see that, you

423
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,960
see language for what it is,
which is that no word has any

424
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,480
inherent meaning.
They only have meaning relevant

425
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,760
like relative to to other to
other things.

426
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,800
And again, that's that
relational relativity point.

427
00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:44,960
So even even in this sense, even
in the words I'm saying now

428
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:46,880
you're saying how this is
pointing to other things in the

429
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,440
conversation.
And it's that pointing to seeing

430
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,440
how the web of everything
connects with each other.

431
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,720
There is only that
interdependent relationship.

432
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,440
There is no actual kind of if
you think you know what the sun

433
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,440
mean, the word sun means, you
know, and you can point to the

434
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,280
sun.
Even that is like the sun

435
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,320
doesn't have any inherent
essence apart from how all the

436
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:07,600
other processes of nature that
kind of come together for it to

437
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,920
exist in that moment.
So this is the Buddhist concept

438
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,600
of emptiness, which is the flip
side of of relationality is that

439
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,000
nothing actually has we through
object perception, we imbue

440
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:19,760
things with a sense of like, oh,
I know what the sun is.

441
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,920
It's this is the sun.
It's like an object.

442
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,120
It's a but actually, once you
start to interrogate and

443
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:26,960
deconstruct it, you see that
there is only existence coming

444
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,040
together in that moment.
The sun wouldn't be the sun if

445
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:33,000
you took away, you know, the
vacuum around it of space and

446
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:34,280
everything.
Yeah.

447
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,040
It needs everything to to be
what it is.

448
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,640
Yeah, I've, I've rambled away
from your initial question.

449
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:41,840
Now you remember the question
was.

450
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,680
It fits in perfectly what you
talk about as the epistemic

451
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,160
space within beliefs and how
they arrive.

452
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,320
Everything should be taken into
a context.

453
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,960
I mean, there's certain things
when we talk about something.

454
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:53,720
You obviously know that nothing
lives in a vacuum.

455
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,120
Everything is contextual,
relational.

456
00:23:56,360 --> 00:23:59,320
And earlier you mentioned
bringing in the physics of this

457
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,120
and you, you call this living
mirrors.

458
00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:04,560
And I love the way you brought
in a lot of these very, very

459
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,280
scientific physical concepts
into describing and discussing

460
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,480
how this embodied or predictive
brain can do what it does and

461
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,400
how it then eventually leads to
your theory.

462
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,480
Before we start and touch on to
that, I want to just make sure

463
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,040
for anyone who thinks that this
is a panpsychist theory, well,

464
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,320
how do you differ?
How would you differentiate this

465
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:24,200
from?
Right.

466
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,880
Yeah.
So, so that yeah, goes back to

467
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,520
the the limits of language
because so at the very end of

468
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:39,080
the book, I basically say how
you could you could tell the

469
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,160
same story with different words
and you could claim it to be a

470
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,960
pan psychic story in some sense
with some caveats or an idealist

471
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,440
story with, you know, all with
caveats or a physicalist story

472
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,240
or even an illusionist story
where consciousness is an

473
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,520
illusion in some sense because
the map is not the territory.

474
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,520
You can have different maps and
they were offering different

475
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,840
insights.
So I could tell this story where

476
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:05,360
what I could say is the physics
of life that I think is

477
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:07,200
consciousness or underpins
consciousness.

478
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:14,000
That same physics exists in some
form in any self organizing

479
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:15,960
system.
An atom, you know, anything that

480
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,200
persists over time.
Now it doesn't show, it's

481
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,240
precisely because it doesn't
show the autonomy and the the

482
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,240
preference for avoiding death.
I think that's where meaning

483
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,440
comes in, because the first, the
first thing of significance is

484
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,440
that you don't want to die and
everything else is gaffed on top

485
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,520
of that.
And atom shows no evidence of

486
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,440
caring or having any ability to
Orient away from its own

487
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,360
destruction.
You know, like we don't worry

488
00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:43,440
about the ethics of particle
collide, as, you know, smashing

489
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,760
particles into each other.
If you did it with squirrels,

490
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:47,560
then we would worry about the
ethics of that.

491
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,520
You know, that's because they,
they act in such a way that

492
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,120
suggests they don't want to die.
And so I think there's

493
00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:57,080
experience that.
So, so the what you could say

494
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,760
though, is that, well, there's a
continuity here.

495
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,760
And this is, this is very kind
of recent, the last few years

496
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,840
emerging physics out of the free
energy principle that's been

497
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,480
called kind of Bayesian
mechanics at this point.

498
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,520
And you can think of it as a
kind of scale free physics of

499
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,920
forms, where Darwin here had
this insight that the complex

500
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,400
forms of species like the
giraffe of the length of a

501
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,600
giraffe's neck matching up with
the length of the trees in this

502
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,680
environment.
There's information carried in

503
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,680
the length of the giraffe's neck
about the height of the trees in

504
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,480
that environment, in the sense
that information is uncertainty

505
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,680
reduction.
So if I wanted to know the

506
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,880
height of a tree on an island
where some giraffes lived, I

507
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,440
could measure the length of
giraffe and come up with a

508
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,000
pretty good guess about the
height.

509
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,360
And so there's some
correspondence there.

510
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:44,760
I can reduce my uncertainty
about the trees by measuring the

511
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,720
giraffe.
So there's some information

512
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,640
there.
So in those physical structures,

513
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,240
the same thing happens with any
physical form.

514
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,680
And this is, this is kind of
universal Darwinism where.

515
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,920
So for example, if you imagine a
if you imagine a a Bank of sand

516
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,400
that forms an island in the
middle of the ocean and the

517
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,400
image is somewhere very shallow,
like the Maldives or something

518
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,200
where the sands are shifting
around.

519
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,840
And it would be unlikely that
that sand would naturally form

520
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,200
into a really tall box shape
with, with sharp edges that

521
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,080
instinctively would look weird
because we we know that the

522
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:21,360
waves would weather that away,
right?

523
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:22,680
And it would become a kind of
slope.

524
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:29,120
So the the the slope of that
island will come to mirror the

525
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:33,400
slope of say there's like a huge
deep trench next to the island

526
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,960
that will shape the shape of the
island, even though the trench

527
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,480
and the island never come into
direct contact as this resonance

528
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,480
that happens through the waves
shifting.

529
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,920
So in the same way that this,
the selection algorithm of

530
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,120
evolution, shapes the shape of
the giraffe's neck to the match

531
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:51,560
the height of the trees, without
the tree, the trunk of the tree

532
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,880
and the giraffe neck never
directly interact in some

533
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,360
Newtonian physical way.
But this resonance happens where

534
00:27:57,360 --> 00:27:59,280
they, the forms come to fit
their niche.

535
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,880
And so the form of the island
comes to fit its niche of the

536
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,120
surrounding landscape.
And this is the same thing that

537
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:09,000
life does in every moment
through sensation and

538
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,040
perception, moment to moment to
survive, we're doing this kind

539
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,320
of process and inference.
It turns out that that Darwinian

540
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,680
selection process is the same
thing as inference.

541
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,440
This is where the information
thing comes in, that the height

542
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,760
of the neck of the giraffe is
the same as the matches the

543
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:26,840
correspondent some sense to the
height of the trees.

544
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,600
So with life, we're we're
leveraging that information to

545
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,720
survive.
And I think that's where the

546
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,840
kind of ability to simulate a
world outside of ourselves and

547
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,120
use that to navigate comes in.
So to come back to the to bring

548
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:44,800
this will set the atom carries
information about the world

549
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,560
around it.
It has that resonant structure.

550
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,480
That is the kind of relationship
that is the physics that that

551
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,520
consciousness I think is
scaffolded on or its

552
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,360
consciousness is an elaboration
of that physics.

553
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,040
So you could be generous and
call it proto consciousness, but

554
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,280
you'd have to be careful to say
I don't think there's any reason

555
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,000
to think there's meaning,
significance.

556
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,160
And as a result, I think there's
probably not any qualitative

557
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,360
character to it, but it's a
story where you can point to a

558
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,840
deep continuity between the
physical and the mental, which

559
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,240
is what the instinct of
panpsychism is, that this can't

560
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,400
just kind of spring out of
absolutely nothing with an

561
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,640
absolute discontinuity.
And that's right, There is a

562
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,560
physics of forms that goes from
atoms all the way up to the

563
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,760
universe as a whole.
And some people want me to then

564
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,640
speculate that maybe the
universe as a whole could be a

565
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,760
mind, which nothing in physics
that says that couldn't be the

566
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,560
case.
But I just don't see any reason

567
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,520
to kind of come to that
conclusion at this point.

568
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,840
All the work you mentioned it,
it sort of links well with

569
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,640
certain thinkers and people of
who've had been on the spot

570
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,160
because before people like Mark
Soloms, Cole Friston, Mike

571
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,080
Leven, how their work has really
influenced the way you think

572
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,200
today.
Yeah, that all three of those

573
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,800
people are cited extensively in
the book because yeah, you're

574
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,640
right.
There's like an emerging, you

575
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,880
know, I'm not I'm not kind of
setting out a store that's like

576
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:01,040
1,000,000 miles from everyone
else.

577
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,040
That's kind of here's my unique
idea about consciousness.

578
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,280
It's and what I'm trying to do
is synthesize our best

579
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:06,120
understanding.
So.

580
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,080
So I think those people are
really at the leading edge of

581
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,160
Yeah, they're all doing
incredible work.

582
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,400
Yeah.
So it fits very, very neatly.

583
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,920
I also would say I think Terence
Deacon as well, who I think

584
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,320
you've spoken to on the podcast,
I think his work really points

585
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,240
in the same direction.
He coined this term

586
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,920
teleodynamics that I really
like, which really points to

587
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,560
when you asked, you know, why?
Why life?

588
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,800
Why do I think life experience
isn't on life doesn't or what

589
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,760
even what is life?
I think teleodynamics is a

590
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,640
really good term for it, which
means purpose of dynamics,

591
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,720
dynamics set towards a goal
which in this case is self

592
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,040
persistence, the avoidance of
death.

593
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,240
So yeah, I think, I think his
work, which I saw in the book as

594
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,600
well is, is really useful in
this domain.

595
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,920
I'm actually we're setting up a
conversation with Terence Deacon

596
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,880
and Michael Evan.
We're having some.

597
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:56,520
Oh amazing, yes, that'd be
great.

598
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:57,920
I'll definitely listen to that.
Yeah.

599
00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:59,080
So, but is it looking forward to
that?

600
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,720
Is that partly work specifically
that?

601
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,200
Well, I might even bring it up
as a question for them that you

602
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,760
find particularly fascinating.
Sorry, I coughed over that.

603
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,520
Was there anything about their
work in particular?

604
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,240
About Mike Levin, Terence
Deakins work that you'd like me

605
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,120
to ask them in that?
Yeah, I'll probably have a think

606
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:17,640
about it because that's a great
opportunity.

607
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,040
They've both contributed so
much.

608
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,880
I mean, you know, Michael
Levin's chatting.

609
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:25,800
I mean, I think it was just
yesterday I saw an amazing

610
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,160
preprint with Chris Fields he
put out and he's putting out so

611
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,240
much all the time.
And and Terrance deacons in

612
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,880
complete nature is such a like
Tour de force of detail.

613
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,600
It's so it's the most I would
say it's the most detailed book

614
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,920
I've ever read in terms of like
sentence after sentence.

615
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,720
It's like there's so much in
there.

616
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,920
So I don't think off the top my
head I'll do it justice, but I'm

617
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,520
genuinely I think I'll
definitely listen because as I

618
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:53,800
say, I think Terrance is a way
of looking at the emergence of

619
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,680
morpher dynamics, the emergence
of forms and the interior

620
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,800
dynamics.
I mean, I guess I would, I would

621
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,320
like it if, well, I was going to
say I'd like it if someone like

622
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,720
Carl Frisson was involved in
that conversation as well.

623
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,600
Because or John Campbell's, he
doesn't really do podcasts, but

624
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,840
he's someone who writes about
universal Darwinism and the way

625
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,320
that inference, the free engine
principle, those dynamics are

626
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,440
the same thing as the Darwinian
selection algorithm.

627
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,200
And this kind of Bayesian
mechanics, physics of forms

628
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,600
thing I think is that is a
crucial piece of the puzzle.

629
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,000
Terence hasn't spoke about that
as far as I know.

630
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,280
Michael Levin definitely
incorporates active inference

631
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,920
call stuff.
So I guess I guess I'd be

632
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:38,320
interested in that is like do to
what extent do they both see the

633
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,320
free engine principle active
inference more, more like, I

634
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,680
should say Bayesian mechanics
and a physics of form, the scale

635
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,000
free physics of forms as being
crucial to understanding the

636
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,040
mind?
Yeah, that'll probably be my

637
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,520
question.
Someone, someone who also

638
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,800
started your book is Mark Solmes
and he's from Cape Town.

639
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,400
I'll start talking about Mark's
work because no right so close

640
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,160
to home for me, but.
Yeah, yeah.

641
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,080
Something he often touches about
is the ancient aspect of the

642
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,400
brain and the fact that we're,
we're also obsessed with this

643
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,000
cortical fallacy and we need to
get thank you.

644
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,360
I mean, we think it's a very, as
we touched on earlier, this

645
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,800
exceptionalism does
consciousness or is

646
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,080
consciousness possible without
brains?

647
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,680
So I think in us in humans,
probably not because so I think

648
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,440
I think Mark's instinct that the
brain stem, the structures that

649
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,400
are absolutely crucial to the
living body are important for

650
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,480
for consciousness is is right
because of the head and spring.

651
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,800
But the thing I would
differentiate is that for me,

652
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,120
it's not you don't need a brain
for consciousness to come into

653
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:39,880
existence.
So you could say the simplest

654
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,240
take away of my book.
I guess there are two.

655
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:43,920
There's a scientist spirituality
being compatible.

656
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,840
But then scientifically, the
simplest thing is that we

657
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,880
currently think, if you go
through the history of the

658
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,280
universe, that nervous systems
or brains, some event in the

659
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,560
development or revolution of
those structures brought

660
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,480
experience into existence,
brought consciousness into

661
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,880
existence.
And I'm saying I think it came

662
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,320
to existence with life.
I don't.

663
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,880
And the first life forms didn't
have nervous systems.

664
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:11,880
And you know, we're all these
kind of electrical self

665
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,360
organizing systems.
And so you could say, you know,

666
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:21,280
what is it possible for a body
with like electrical activity in

667
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,199
it to experience?
And I would say, well,

668
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:25,400
absolutely, that's what the
brain is.

669
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,840
The brain is just biological
tissue that can kind of mediate

670
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,560
electrochemical signaling.
And it's not unique in that

671
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,280
sense.
You know, every, every cell

672
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:39,199
deals with electrical gradients.
And so, so I, this is, you know,

673
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:41,400
I go to great pains.
You know, I'm a neuroscientist.

674
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,520
I trained in neuroscience
because I really thought I

675
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,960
bought into the paradigm that
the brain is where it's at.

676
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,719
Like it's, you don't have to
worry about single celled

677
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,120
organisms.
They're just little reflex

678
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,280
machines.
If you want to understand minds,

679
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:53,440
you know, don't look for it
there.

680
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,880
And this Michael Evans work
really comes in here as well.

681
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,160
Although interestingly, he even
goes beyond life to think that

682
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,800
there's kind of diverse
embodiments of minds that we

683
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,680
just don't even recognize, which
is interesting.

684
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:07,240
Yeah.
I had him on my podcast, and he

685
00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:09,760
was talking about the idea that
you can't even assume that the

686
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:15,080
weather doesn't have cognition,
which is outside the way I think

687
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:16,920
about this stuff.
But definitely very fascinating.

688
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,920
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, there's there's so much

689
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,200
that they that they're working
on at this point.

690
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,560
And when we look at the output
him, Chris Fields, there's this

691
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,840
group of people, I call them The
Avengers of mind, just they're

692
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,600
they're literally pumping out
paper after paper and

693
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,760
collaborate so much that it's
quite, it's quite difficult to

694
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:44,320
start separating a pan psychos
from an idealist from a

695
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,880
physicalist at this.
They're all sort of converging

696
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,360
into this beautiful hive mind in
a sense.

697
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,960
What?
Yeah, yeah, no.

698
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,640
And I think this points to the I
agree that the the empty, non

699
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,560
conceptual, relational nature of
reality means that we should be

700
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,560
able to have people say, I'm
going to use this idealist

701
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,480
language and I'm going to use
this physicalist language.

702
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:07,880
And actually we're saying the
same thing.

703
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,720
You know, I, I like to kind of
differentiate my position from

704
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:18,320
idealism because I don't think
it's as simple as everything is

705
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,200
just mind as mind only picture
of reality and everything is

706
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,120
just in our mind.
We don't know why mind exists.

707
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,840
It's just here.
Like a mind is some kind of

708
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,920
substrate or substance.
Like I don't, that's not how I

709
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,200
think about things.
But then when I unpack my

710
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:31,840
vision, I'm like, I think it's
this.

711
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,680
There's a, there's a
consciousness researcher called

712
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,560
Max of Ellmans, whose view he
calls reflexive monism.

713
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,400
And I think that actually, I
think his view might be even the

714
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,800
same as mine with very similar.
We're going to speak soon, so

715
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,680
I'll be reading more of his
stuff.

716
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,480
But I think that idea of monism,
there is only one thing in

717
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,680
existence, but there's a
reflexivity.

718
00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:54,680
There's the way that the
universe comes to know itself.

719
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,920
And I think that's through life.
He talks about brains and stuff.

720
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,200
But yes, I think it's that
reflexivity.

721
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,600
Yet we are, as I said, the kind
of the leading edge of the rest

722
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,200
of the universe.
We're like a wave in the

723
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:06,400
universe.
We're not separate from it.

724
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,560
So you can, you can talk about a
kind of, you can wake up to a

725
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,200
kind of a cosmic principle of
consciousness where it's like,

726
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,320
even though it's only in us, we
are, yeah, fully part of the

727
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,160
rest of the universe.
It's like if the tip of Mount

728
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,840
Everest, the summit was, was
convinced it was only the summit

729
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,760
and it wasn't actually part of
the rest of Mount Everest, or it

730
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,080
wasn't even part of the
Himalayas.

731
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,080
It was truly separate.
And then suddenly it has this

732
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,880
experience of seeing its entire
continuity with, you know, say,

733
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,640
well, actually I'm I'm a bit of
the Himalayas.

734
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,120
I'm fully part of the Himalayas.
That's what these kind of

735
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,200
experiences are like.
You don't, you don't suddenly

736
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,120
start seeing from a different
perspective.

737
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,160
You can still be on the relative
level of the summit.

738
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,720
You can still be this body, but
you're also everything else, you

739
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:47,840
know, So you can have these
experiences of kind of cosmic

740
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,920
consciousness even even though I
don't think we need to think of

741
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,320
experiences somehow actually
expanding out of the body or,

742
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,160
you know, existing at a cosmic
scale.

743
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,200
But you know, I don't think
there is any material substance

744
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,280
in the world.
I think Berkeley, who you know,

745
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,760
is the kind of most famous
idealist in the West.

746
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,800
I think he actually originally
called his position

747
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,320
immaterialism.
And my position is immaterialism

748
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,720
in the sense that there isn't
the thing we call the physical

749
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,080
is just patterns in reality and
mind is also patterns.

750
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,640
So I think especially with kind
of subtle versions of like

751
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,400
German idealism and stuff.
I suspect in many ways I am an

752
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,720
idealist, but just not in the
kind of the simple view where

753
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:31,000
it's quite popular in some
spaces now where it's like

754
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,160
there's only the, the one mind,
the cosmic consciousness.

755
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,400
But yeah, so the reason I'm I'm
saying this is in some,

756
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,920
sometimes I'll be at pains to
emphasize I'm not an idealist,

757
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,480
but in some cases they're
idealists who I think would just

758
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,560
be like, oh, your views exactly
the same as mine.

759
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,280
And so you have to really
appreciate the limits of

760
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,840
language.
Yes, I think it, it, there's,

761
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,960
there's many cases where this
happens where I see a maybe an

762
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,120
illusionist explaining their
view and it's, and it's so

763
00:38:58,120 --> 00:38:59,520
perfectly with the Panasonic's
view.

764
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,960
So that and vice versa.
There's, there's various times

765
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,920
where this happens on the point
as well, where someone might say

766
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,520
they're an illusionist, but
their next step would be the

767
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,440
complete opposite.
So the OR their second view

768
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,120
would be the complete opposite,
which is interesting to show how

769
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,920
we struggle with linguistic
concepts and trying to explain

770
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,200
these complex phenomena.
When I spoke to Nam Chomsky

771
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,320
about this, I asked him if if
language plays an important role

772
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,640
with our limitations of
explaining these concepts, and

773
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,800
he said no.
This point said no, but but then

774
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,560
I've had many others on the show
who say that this is in essence

775
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,760
the fundamental problem problem.
How do you see language playing

776
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,360
a huge role in in in discussing
the?

777
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:39,920
Mind.
Consciousness.

778
00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:43,800
Yeah.
So I think it's it's interesting

779
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,800
because I think language plays
language has its same

780
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,560
limitations when we even discuss
a cup or any object like the

781
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:51,480
most mundane things in the
physical world.

782
00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:55,680
But we fall into this, we have
this, we all share similar, you

783
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,960
know, most of us share similar
kind of brain structures and

784
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,640
ways of perceiving the world.
So we all have this shared

785
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,840
narrative of what a cup is as
something that vessel that can

786
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,360
we can drink from.
And so we categorize it as

787
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,320
something familiar and mundane
that other people are going to

788
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,280
reinforce in our perception of
the world.

789
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:11,880
And so we don't yeah, we don't
question it.

790
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,680
But actually if we start to
deconstruct it like the ship of

791
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,520
Theseus where?
You see that actually a cup, you

792
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:20,800
know, if I, if I'm in a pottery
class and I make a cup and I

793
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,000
gradually change the shape to as
a flat disk, at what point does

794
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,960
it stop being a cup?
You know, it's, we can see with

795
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:27,640
that that actually the
definition is entirely

796
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,360
functional.
It's like, can I drink from it?

797
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,200
Can I have this relationship
with if I make my, if I cut my

798
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,760
hands and drink water from it
and my hands now a cup, they are

799
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,720
like it.
We in a sense, but also So what

800
00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:40,760
you can see here is that the
overlay of perception is and

801
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,280
languages is not what's going on
in reality itself.

802
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,640
But when we see this, it kind of
invites us to, to stop grasping

803
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,000
and stop holding on to reality
because that's what we do with

804
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,000
our perception is we try and
reify and make it feel solid and

805
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,720
stable.
So, so people often get

806
00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:59,560
uncomfortable when they start,
when things start to dissolve

807
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:01,520
and you realize that reality
isn't as you as you thought it

808
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,640
was.
But then with with experience,

809
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,600
it's.
So what I think the difference

810
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:13,720
is with experience is that it's
it's so tangible and concrete

811
00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:17,880
and here that like with with a
cup or an atom or something, you

812
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,160
can, you can fall into the
fallacy of thinking that your

813
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,520
map is the territory.
You're not being confronted with

814
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,480
atoms all the time.
So if you tell yourself a story

815
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,200
that, you know, Newtonian
mechanics has got it right and

816
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,640
that's everything there is to
know and, you know, all done.

817
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,960
Like, say this is 18th century
or 19th century and before

818
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,680
quantum mechanics, you could
just convince yourself that's

819
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:41,720
the yeah, you have the whole
whole picture of, of what's

820
00:41:41,720 --> 00:41:44,680
going on.
The I've totally lost my thread

821
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,320
of thought.
Then I kind of remember what I

822
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,240
was talking about.
Yeah, well, so we're discussing

823
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,520
how easily language can mislead
us because of.

824
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,640
Language.
Thank you yeah.

825
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,840
So, so you, you mistake your
language, your, your, your map

826
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:58,920
for the territory and you think
your, your Newtonian mechanic

827
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,960
story is, is reality.
But with experience, it's so

828
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,520
here that like you can't make
that same mistake.

829
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,040
You know, I can tell you a
story, but it's never going to

830
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:13,440
make the again, the taste of
coffee disappeared because it's

831
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:18,680
so imminent and right here.
So that can be partly, I said at

832
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,360
the beginning that we expect
some people kind of

833
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,840
instinctively, I think, expect
our models to jump off the page

834
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,560
and consume the territory.
Like that's, that's almost what

835
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,240
we want out of us.
If we're not, if we're not aware

836
00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:31,280
of the map territory
distinction, It's almost like we

837
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,560
want our physics story to be so
good that we can forget about

838
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,000
physics and we can just be done
with it.

839
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,360
And some people have the same
thing where I think on some

840
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,080
level they almost want, they
almost want like there's some

841
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,080
existential anxiety, whereas
they want the consciousness

842
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,320
theory to basically swallow up
consciousness and be done with

843
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,720
it.
And this does make sense to

844
00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:51,120
people, but, but I think this is
a, that's why there's this

845
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,560
neurosis where it's like, I
can't explain away my

846
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,120
experience.
I'm and this leads us into the

847
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,520
kind of mystical experiences and
spirituality where when you

848
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,800
settle into that feeling, you
can discover that you actually

849
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,640
exist, that there is beingness
that's beyond words.

850
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,440
But again, that involves an
opening, a surrender that the

851
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,760
mind typically doesn't want.
To do in your book, you

852
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,400
mentioned those work
psychological intuitions and you

853
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:23,120
talk about separation, self and
substance right at at at what

854
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,680
point in your life did did you
move beyond these concepts and

855
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,920
see beyond these concepts?
Because these seem to be things

856
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,120
that we construct as a
subjective experiences.

857
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:33,600
Rather.
Objective.

858
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,640
Yeah, so I point to the kind of
mystical experience or what's

859
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,200
called awakening of Buddhism as
this kind of shift where you go

860
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,360
from thinking you live in a
world of separate objects and

861
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,640
that you are one of those
objects, to discovering the

862
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,840
unnameable wholeness of being,
you could say.

863
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,280
And then when that happens, you
know, the way I lay on the book,

864
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,320
as you say, is to say that I
think self, substance and

865
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,320
separation are key aspects of
this.

866
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:04,920
So self is going from thinking
you are thing that inhabits the

867
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,400
body, maybe in the brain, maybe
you are the brain, maybe you're

868
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:11,600
a soul, you know something that
inhabits the body, to

869
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,000
discovering that you are
beingness in this form.

870
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,640
You are the energy of existence
in this form with a narrative

871
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,200
that you are a self, that that's
only a narrative, a story or a

872
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,400
way of perceiving.
Along with that is a sense of

873
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,400
being a separate thing that you
are distinct from the rest of

874
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,680
the world.
You are not at home in the

875
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:29,680
universe, you are kind of
alienated and small.

876
00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:32,280
You are confined to this
material body, and therefore

877
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,280
death is a big problem.
Whereas if you identify with

878
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,840
beingness, death isn't a problem
because where are you going to

879
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:38,800
go?
Because you are beingness?

880
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:40,160
Wherever there's beingness,
that's you.

881
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,080
So this is what kind of happens
with these experiences.

882
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,960
So.
And then substance is seeing

883
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,560
that, seeing emptiness, really
seeing that the world isn't made

884
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,280
of solid material building
blocks.

885
00:44:53,280 --> 00:45:00,080
It's a flux, kind of an eternal.
Yeah, people often talk about

886
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,520
energy and spirituality, and I
think that, you know, the fact

887
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,200
that matter and energy are the
same thing is a useful way

888
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,840
perhaps of pointing to this,
that reality is fluid, it's

889
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:09,720
insubstantial.
It's yeah.

890
00:45:09,720 --> 00:45:13,680
It's occurrences often to kind
of think of energy as just the

891
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,160
potential for something to
happen, for a kind of an event

892
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:17,280
to occur.
So this is kind of like a

893
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,240
process metaphysics where there
isn't really anything there.

894
00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:24,800
There's just a relationship of
the one empty potency of

895
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,160
existence interacting with
itself.

896
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,120
So this is kind of how it feels
with them with this kind of

897
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:30,960
shift.
And they all, they all kind of

898
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,880
came in one go for me when I was
ruminating on hell as a

899
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,040
teenager.
And then my mind kind of hit a

900
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,880
dead end and I suddenly stopped
thinking.

901
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:42,800
And then everything I'm pointing
to in terms of the simplicity of

902
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:48,280
just the wholeness of reality
and language being insufficient

903
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:50,080
and then not being yourself,
they're not being separation or

904
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:51,920
substance.
Like all of that's just staring

905
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,400
you in the face or the no face
because there's a sense of self

906
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,680
falling away.
And, you know, I mean, I was in

907
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,800
my early teens at that point.
This is these insights are not

908
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:03,440
cognitive.
They're not mediated through

909
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:04,520
thought.
There's they're not an

910
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,480
understanding.
They're not going to be going to

911
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,680
be anything in particular to
have these insights that it's

912
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,720
just, it's like Everett, you
know, it's like the summit of

913
00:46:13,720 --> 00:46:15,280
Everest discovering that it's
the Himalayas.

914
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,920
Just you look and you're like,
oh, obviously, like as once you

915
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,200
stop doing this fixation, like,
no, I'm just the summit.

916
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:21,520
I'm just the summit.
I'm just this body.

917
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,320
I'm just this body.
You stop doing that.

918
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,120
And it's like, oh, obviously
that's just what it is, and it's

919
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:27,640
kind of too simple to put into
words.

920
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:29,720
So all that kind of happened in
one go.

921
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:33,360
And then, yeah, as I say, it's
too simple to really put into

922
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:34,720
words.
So then when you try to put into

923
00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:37,880
words, a lot can actually be
said because there it's all

924
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:39,840
insufficient and it all points
to different facets.

925
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,600
But I think it's a shift towards
seeing reality more clearly.

926
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,360
I think it's a, you know, in
Buddhism they talk about

927
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,640
delusion a lot.
And I think the usual way that

928
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,400
we see the world is rife with
these folk psychological

929
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,520
structures that is kind of
assumptions about how the world

930
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:57,840
is and what we are that shape
our experience.

931
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:02,000
And that with these insight
states, you can really, yeah,

932
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,160
wake up out of that delusion
into seeing reality more

933
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:05,800
clearly.
I think these are often insight

934
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:07,800
states rather than delusional
states.

935
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,640
And that's not that's not to say
that everything if one

936
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:14,920
experiences is.
Yeah, should just be taken for

937
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,160
granted.
You know, if someone has a the

938
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:19,160
crazy experience of being
abducted by aliens, I'm not

939
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:20,680
saying great.
We just have to say that's on

940
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,160
the same footing as, you know,
Pascal accelerator experiments.

941
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,920
We need to be critical and
philosophically rigorous and see

942
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,640
where stuff fits together.
But I think this, this the core

943
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:35,760
of what's called awakening is,
is is a corrective to, yeah, our

944
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,880
flawed primate mammalian biases
when it comes to how we perceive

945
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:42,880
the world.
Is there any part of, let's say,

946
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:47,760
your spiritual practice that you
wish you did not have to defend

947
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,240
within the scientific community?
Didn't have to defend.

948
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:55,320
That's interesting, yeah.
I find it's very difficult for a

949
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,800
lot of, for for many scientists
who have a spiritual way of

950
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,840
living to express it openly.
There's almost this defence then

951
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,640
and and although there's a shift
occurring, how do you reconcile

952
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:09,680
these two aspects of your life?
Yeah.

953
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,800
I mean, when you say any aspect
of it, it's really the whole

954
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:13,280
thing.
It's like I feel the resistance

955
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,880
around it, you know, because
it's I mentioned before the for

956
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,360
me, it really comes down to
openness versus closeness.

957
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,360
To me, the spiritual path is a
path of opening.

958
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,960
And you could say that could
begin with a moment of

959
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,520
mindfulness where you're opening
to present moment experience and

960
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:31,320
you're becoming curious.
Self inquiry from advice for

961
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,880
Dante is kind of you're
inquiring it into what you are,

962
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,240
you're open that has a kind of
curiosity tone to it.

963
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,880
It's all about, you know,
surrender is a big part of it as

964
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:47,360
well.
And so I think it's it's an

965
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:52,240
spirituality when it's wise and,
you know, not as is it is an

966
00:48:52,240 --> 00:48:54,800
invitation to open and surrender
and stop struggling with

967
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,240
existence.
But then as people do that, the

968
00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:01,560
ego, the desire to hold on, to
close things down, to, to

969
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,840
understand, to come up with,
yeah, mental models, I think

970
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:06,960
goes into OverDrive.
So I think that's why what

971
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,440
people think of a spirituality,
which is the kind of a lot of

972
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,400
the New Agey fluff and like is
actually people trying to avoid

973
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,360
true spirituality because true
spirituality is like a radical

974
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,240
undoing, a radical shedding of
struggle, which is wonderful,

975
00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:21,480
liberating, but it's also
painful.

976
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,800
It's like we we have our
attachments and we don't want to

977
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:26,600
let go of our attachments.
It feels like an emotional

978
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,480
reputation a lot of the time
when you're when you're shedding

979
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:32,280
attachments, you know, it's very
much a transformative process,

980
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:33,680
like a Caterpillar becoming a
butterfly.

981
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,200
And if you say to the
Caterpillar on the rational

982
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,080
level, like, do you want to go
into that chrysalis and be

983
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,760
dissolved and like and and
you'll die, but then trust me,

984
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:43,200
there's going to be this
beautiful butterfly.

985
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,520
And like maybe you'll never know
that because you know the you

986
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,320
will will perish.
But like the Casper is probably,

987
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,280
if it was raised in our modern
culture, it's going to be like,

988
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,480
I'm not not so sure about this.
So I think when other people

989
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,480
point to this possibility, yeah,
that can just be that

990
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,080
resistance.
And I think for a long time,

991
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,440
there was sometimes kind of,
yeah, there were feelings about

992
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:08,880
that in terms of wishing,
feeling maybe not understood or

993
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,920
like that people protect their
own anxieties of like, what are

994
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:13,120
you trying to do?
Are you trying to be like a

995
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:14,400
guru?
You're trying to exploit people?

996
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,240
Like, what's your game here?
Just thinking it has to be a

997
00:50:16,240 --> 00:50:17,880
game.
It can't just be an invitation

998
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,320
for peacefulness and openness.
But then over time, I just saw

999
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,560
that everyone is at where
everyone is where they're at

1000
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,800
for, for all due to all the
causes and conditions of

1001
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,920
reality.
And so like, if someone needs to

1002
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:33,240
resist in that moment, that's
fine.

1003
00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:34,320
Like they that's where they're
at.

1004
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:40,200
And, and I think science, I
mean, science is really this

1005
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,560
opening.
It takes you into the emotion

1006
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,320
space, into feeling.
And the way that we avoid

1007
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,000
feeling is through the mind.
And so I think science is almost

1008
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:50,960
the antithesis.
I think there's a reason

1009
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:55,840
science, spirituality need to be
synthesized because culturally I

1010
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,280
think our tendencies are kind of
in opposite directions.

1011
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,120
If you're someone who's wants to
resist coming up with ideas and

1012
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,480
thinking, staying in the head is
a really good way.

1013
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,360
It's maybe the only way or the
main way to avoid this.

1014
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:11,880
So I think there's a bias where
if you pick a random scientist

1015
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:13,880
and you pick a random person
who's not a scientist, you're

1016
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,320
the scientist is probably more
likely to have some resistance

1017
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,400
to spirituality.
It's my instinct.

1018
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,440
But yeah, at this point, I'm
very accepting, accepting of

1019
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:27,040
just where everyone's AT.
And again, it's an invitation

1020
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,480
rather than a demand that people
need to agree or see things this

1021
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,160
way.
People are totally welcome to to

1022
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,120
say what they want or kind of
resist this stuff it.

1023
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,320
Reminds me of something when I
spoke to Thomas Metzinger and,

1024
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:39,760
and we were discussing fewer
consciousness.

1025
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:43,280
Now people can appreciate this,
his experience and, and I think

1026
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,160
they had done a study where
they, they got a bunch of

1027
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,960
university students to
participate in this, but because

1028
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,360
most of them were purely
academics, it was very difficult

1029
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,000
to get them to, to enter the
state.

1030
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:58,360
So it seems like almost the
harder, the more of a let's use

1031
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:03,200
the the butterfly, the more of a
the less of a butterfly you are,

1032
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,040
the less likely you are to
become a butterfly.

1033
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,000
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's
interesting because in my case,

1034
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:14,000
I, I was so deeply in my
Caterpillar state when this

1035
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,240
shift happened.
I was, I was almost too far

1036
00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:17,600
pushing.
I was pushing the stuff away so

1037
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:18,920
far that I fell off the other
end.

1038
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,280
And like, so it can't happen
that way.

1039
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,760
You're so invested in the mind,
which is what I was ruminating

1040
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,720
so intensely on, on a paradox
that can be solved, that that I

1041
00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:31,800
had a dead end.
And then all this stuff was, was

1042
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,960
kind of readily apparent.
But yeah, I mean, that's, yeah,

1043
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:36,440
I mentioned awareness is a key
way in which you can open to

1044
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,400
this stuff.
And one, one way you can do that

1045
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:43,760
is to 1st notice awareness as
the already present space in

1046
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,560
which my words are arising, even
when even between the words,

1047
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:50,680
there's a silent still space in
which the words that rise into

1048
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:52,360
the lights don't go out.
The lights are still on.

1049
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,000
So you can tune into that and
you can notice that awareness

1050
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,240
pervades everything, experience.
And then that awareness can turn

1051
00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:02,360
on itself to, to know itself, to
reflexively become, yeah, aware

1052
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:06,360
of itself without you doing it.
The you that thinks that that is

1053
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,760
mediated through thought.
This can just happen.

1054
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,440
And that you can just kind of
recede into the background.

1055
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,000
The mind can even be like, like,
oh, this is BS.

1056
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,800
Nothing's happening whilst this
amazing illumination is

1057
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,520
happening.
It can feel very Yeah, I mean,

1058
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:21,960
and so you're, you're really
letting go of that struggle of

1059
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,160
feeling like the self who needs
to Orient in those moments.

1060
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:26,680
But yeah, if you're a very
intellectual person, you're

1061
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:28,800
probably that's probably going
to make you feel uncomfortable

1062
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:30,960
because you're you're you're
letting go of your grip on the

1063
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,280
thing that is, is who you are,
is how you Orient in the world.

1064
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:40,640
But there's nothing, there's
nothing wrong with with letting

1065
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:41,840
go.
And not only that it's, it's

1066
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:46,520
wonderful, but there is, it is
wise to check that you know,

1067
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,600
what you're doing, that you have
support and that you have a good

1068
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:50,480
guide and that you're not going
to be taken advantage of by some

1069
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,240
abusive guru or, you know, So
all of those things, the mind,

1070
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,640
those concerns the mind has are
totally valid and reasonable,

1071
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:00,080
but it's wise to channel them
into growth rather than

1072
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,040
habitually staying small, which
is what partly what the kind of

1073
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,040
the self module in the mind
wants to do is just, And

1074
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,000
actually the free entry
principle from Karl Friston

1075
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:12,880
really, I think explains this
nicely that living things can't

1076
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:15,400
have a God's eye view of what's
the best way to live.

1077
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,320
Like, OK, I'm going to go over
there and I'm going to live in

1078
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:18,760
this niche because that's the
optimal way.

1079
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,120
And I'm going to do it this way.
They have to just discover they

1080
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,240
have to stumble into what's good
enough to keep them surviving.

1081
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,680
And then once you find a habit
that works, you kind of stick

1082
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,000
with that with a bit of noise so
that you can explore and see if

1083
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,160
there's something better.
But there's fundamental tendency

1084
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,040
to just keep doing what's been
working to keep you going.

1085
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,000
And I think that's kind of what
the self structure does is, is

1086
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:42,480
it's like if someone's super
depressed, but they've still got

1087
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,200
food, they're still got fresh
drinking water, they've got

1088
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:50,480
shelter, the system doesn't
necessarily want them to get

1089
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:52,840
into.
It's more concerned with the

1090
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,760
fact that they're still
physically alive rather than

1091
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:57,320
flourishing.
You know, it's like, this is

1092
00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:58,640
good enough.
You're still getting food.

1093
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,680
And perhaps, you know, in a
scary world, thinking, being

1094
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:06,480
scared and depressed and is
actually a good coping mechanism

1095
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:08,800
because who knows if I live in a
world where if I go and put

1096
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:10,720
myself out there, maybe I'm
actually going to things are

1097
00:55:10,720 --> 00:55:11,720
going to go bad.
So.

1098
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:15,640
So yeah, I think this is another
way in which all these things

1099
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,600
are kind of coming together to
synthesize science and

1100
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:22,600
spirituality.
If someone has a radiator, what

1101
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:25,120
would be your best sales pitch
for it?

1102
00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:29,080
What would be the best you can
think of that they should read

1103
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,000
this?
Yeah.

1104
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:33,240
So I think I'm assuming with
this audience, they're already

1105
00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:36,040
interested in the mind body
problem.

1106
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:39,040
And yeah, I'm offering what I
see as a solution that

1107
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:44,120
synthesizes, as I say, the kind
of leading thinkers work, you

1108
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:45,960
know, the leading kind of
paradigms that are emerging.

1109
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,480
So it's not even if you disagree
with my conclusions, you'll get

1110
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,800
a really good primer on, you
know, actually, I assume, I

1111
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:54,560
assume no background knowledge.
I bring people along the whole

1112
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:58,160
way, all the issues at play and
offer how I see them thing

1113
00:55:58,160 --> 00:55:59,840
together, but in a non dogmatic
way.

1114
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:02,880
You know, you won't come away
from it feeling, you know, it's

1115
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:04,760
an invitation to come to your
own conclusions.

1116
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,040
And I've heard from people that
they felt that way when they

1117
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:10,240
read it that like, yeah, yeah,
they're welcome to disagree.

1118
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:15,000
But I think they'll get a yeah,
a good sense of, you know, I

1119
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,560
think the biopsychism thing as
well is an interesting thing to

1120
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:20,920
feel into, just to feel like, is
this plausible?

1121
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:22,400
Could this could this be the
case?

1122
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:24,480
Because there aren't that many
people really offering that

1123
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,960
invitation to like to unpack
Michael Evans, I think one of

1124
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,920
them.
But I mean, he's again, putting

1125
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:33,640
even beyond biopsychism.
But just the non neurocentric

1126
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:37,040
view is something that I think
we need to start considering.

1127
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:39,880
Like could, you know, you don't
just decide I'm right about

1128
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:41,720
everything, but you could just
be like, is this possible?

1129
00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:45,080
And I think if we start to.
I found that inhabiting that

1130
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:47,640
perspective, everything started
to make sense.

1131
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:50,840
Everything started to fall into
yeah, into line.

1132
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:57,240
And it's, it's a bit like how
before, when when people thought

1133
00:56:57,240 --> 00:56:59,880
that the Earth was at the center
of the solar system, that the

1134
00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:03,000
trajectories of the planets had
these crazy, wacky, loopy orbits

1135
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,920
that just didn't make any sense.
And then you move the sun to the

1136
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:07,680
center, suddenly it's concentric
circles.

1137
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:09,400
And it's the most elegant,
simple.

1138
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,400
Yeah.
Picture there is, and I feel

1139
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,600
like this is like that you just
you, you think the brains of

1140
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,360
them are doing OK.
Well, this doesn't add up that

1141
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:20,520
this everything looks weird.
It's not matching up.

1142
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:23,320
You put life at the middle.
Oh, actually now it's now I'm

1143
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,480
seeing concentric circles Now
everything's falling into place.

1144
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,400
That's the kind of signal that
made me feel I was on the on the

1145
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,560
right track, or at least that it
was worth putting down my

1146
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:35,000
perspective because I found it
convincing in a way where, you

1147
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,080
know, someone could try on this
perspective for a while and then

1148
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:39,960
they could modify it.
They can move beyond it if it's

1149
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:43,720
if it's flawed in some way.
So that's on that.

1150
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:45,720
You know, as you say, I split
the book into the philosophy and

1151
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:47,160
the science.
That's the kind of second-half.

1152
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,240
But the first half is like, if
you're interested on a more kind

1153
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:54,720
of metaphysical level, like
could you be, could reality be

1154
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:59,640
not what it seems in a way where
there might be a possibility to

1155
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,560
unburden your suffering.
Because because the suffering is

1156
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,400
playing out through a kind of
through the mind in a way where

1157
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,760
thought is you're struggling in
thought in a way that you don't

1158
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:10,720
need to.
If there's any inclination that

1159
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:13,960
that there might be something to
mindfulness and Buddhism and

1160
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,320
spirituality, that perhaps there
is a way to to unburden your

1161
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:20,520
suffering.
I feel like the first half of

1162
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,040
the book could give you a sense
of why it's not crazy to think

1163
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:25,240
that way.
It is isn't supernatural way.

1164
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,360
It fits with science or you
don't believe anything crazy.

1165
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:30,800
Yeah, to come into greater
well-being.

1166
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:36,480
And in your practice, well,
let's say, let's try not to be

1167
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:40,120
one of those podcasts where you
become the guru trying to to

1168
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:42,640
what to do.
But in your own practice at

1169
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:46,040
home, what's your way of opening
up to the universe and opening

1170
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:48,080
up your moment?
Yeah.

1171
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:53,640
So for me, the after the initial
kind of awakening as a teenager,

1172
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:59,000
it's, it's like spirituality or
this stuff isn't something that

1173
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:00,760
you can pick up and put down as
like a hobby.

1174
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,640
It becomes your life, it becomes
the context in which your life

1175
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:06,680
is playing out.
So even the book and my work

1176
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:11,400
around it was, it felt like the
activity of this opening to try

1177
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:15,600
to reckon with reality, to try
to understand where I'm at and

1178
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:19,880
really what's going on.
So for me that movement has

1179
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,000
always been primary.
And then the other stuff is

1180
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:23,960
secondary ideas, the
intellectual stuff.

1181
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:30,200
And so I do something that, you
know, I teach this stuff now as

1182
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:33,120
well, and I call it surrendered
inquiry when I teach it, which

1183
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:41,760
is that I think existence has
this fundamental openness, but

1184
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:44,600
it's also engaged with itself.
There's, there's those kind of

1185
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,280
two aspects.
It's almost like it's expanding,

1186
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:47,760
but it's also interacting with
itself.

1187
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:50,160
And so you can kind of
approximate that in your own

1188
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:55,400
mind where you you surrender in
the sense you're not trying to,

1189
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:59,440
you're, you're coming to a rest
and opening, but you're also not

1190
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:02,040
just like Blase, OK, whatever.
I'm going to let you know

1191
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:04,560
anything happen, there's a
tuning in, there's an inquiry

1192
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:08,120
where there's an inquisitiveness
to to what's going on.

1193
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:10,640
And usually what's going on is
very subtle levels of suffering

1194
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:13,720
or separation.
So there could just be a kind of

1195
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:17,640
scanning experience where.
Perhaps I noticed in the throat,

1196
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:19,560
maybe there's a bit of tension
and it's like, OK, I'm going to

1197
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,600
open to that softener like an
embodied way.

1198
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:24,120
And so you're just kind of
probing.

1199
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:27,000
It's just looking really it's
and it's through doing that.

1200
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:29,040
It's an unraveling.
It's like an unraveling of

1201
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:33,320
tension of resistance.
But this is, I mean, this is

1202
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:35,840
very, this wasn't the way I
practiced most of my life.

1203
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,800
This is very kind of the last
few years of really fine tuning

1204
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:42,640
the deep stage stuff.
But at the same time that same

1205
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:46,160
movement is really the whole
path is an engaged, surrendered

1206
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:49,240
looking at experience.
Yeah.

1207
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:54,440
And when you when you named the
book, it's called the dawn of

1208
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:57,280
mind, how matter became
conscious and alive.

1209
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,200
Did you put did you put a lot of
thought into whether or not

1210
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:03,480
whether you should put conscious
first or under life saving?

1211
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:08,280
That's interesting, coming alive
and conscious.

1212
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:11,240
No, I think it came quite easily
because it was like how mass

1213
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,000
became conscious was like,
that's really what it's about.

1214
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:15,000
But I was like, you know what, I
want to signal to people to

1215
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,160
biopsychism.
I don't want to just feel like I

1216
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:17,680
wouldn't.
Yeah.

1217
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:20,280
And it's connected.
So it came out that way.

1218
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:24,120
But interestingly, after I read
the book again, being on the

1219
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:27,960
science of spirituality kind of
intersection, I think for the

1220
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:29,920
people on the spirituality side,
the word matter can be

1221
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:32,960
alienating.
And I mean, even the book,

1222
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:35,720
actually, I say that I don't
really think matter exists in

1223
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:37,360
the form of something
substantial and physical.

1224
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:40,480
Yeah, I think the physical are
these patterns in reality up.

1225
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:43,440
To 5 is what is matter and then
you address this right?

1226
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:44,880
Yeah, right.
Exactly.

1227
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:49,240
So the title of the book was was
it's always going to be flawed

1228
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:52,120
of, again, limits of language.
But it's like I almost was just

1229
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:54,000
sticking with the conventional
way we think about this stuff

1230
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:56,280
and then take people along from
that framing.

1231
01:01:58,000 --> 01:01:59,120
Yeah.
So it's kind of funny to look

1232
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:02,240
back now after it's done and be
like, yeah, there's a lot of

1233
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:04,400
subtleties there that I don't
think I would, unless I was

1234
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:06,480
going to write whole paragraph
as the title, I don't think I

1235
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:07,440
would be able to unpack it.
Yeah.

1236
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:10,560
I know because many people when
they write a book, there's

1237
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:14,520
obviously working titles and
people have certain ideas here

1238
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,880
in the Richard Dawkinson The
Selfish Gene, and he wanted to

1239
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:22,120
write call it The Immortal Gene.
Was there any sort of secondary

1240
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:23,400
title you had for the book in
mind?

1241
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:28,800
Yeah, initially I think I just
living mirrors was the the the

1242
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:29,840
draft.
I thought since the living

1243
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:33,600
mirror theory is the theory and
but then I was like that just

1244
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:36,680
once, once I, I brainstormed it
a bit and the dawn of mine just

1245
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:41,840
felt very neat and definitive,
almost like I quite liked that.

1246
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:47,000
Like maybe, you know, if there's
a grandparent with a, with a

1247
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,480
grandkid who likes sciency stuff
and they see that Titan, they're

1248
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:51,800
like, OK, that looks like a,
that looks like a solid science

1249
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:53,160
book.
You know, that's part of me.

1250
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:56,280
I thought it was just nice to
have something that feels quite

1251
01:02:56,280 --> 01:03:00,040
definitive and yeah.
Is there anything about living

1252
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:03,040
whereas that you feel we haven't
touched on yet that you that

1253
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:05,200
you'd like people to sort of
know and understand?

1254
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:09,480
Yeah, I mean, we've done a good
job I think of seeing the the

1255
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:12,400
main points, you know, the
consciousness arise with life

1256
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:16,240
and it's at the beginning of
this relational dynamic that I

1257
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:17,880
think commits us to this
embodied picture.

1258
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:22,120
Yeah.
And that the through that

1259
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:27,080
understanding, you can come to
see that living systems, you

1260
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:30,400
know, are not fundamentally
separate.

1261
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:32,040
They're not actually separate
objects.

1262
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:34,440
They are processes in reality.
And I speak with this kind of

1263
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:36,600
fractal universal Darwinist
picture where you can, you can

1264
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:39,680
then see from that you can zoom
out to see all of reality as

1265
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:43,480
this single process.
Here in the beginning of the

1266
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:45,800
book, I go into some very
speculative metaphysics about

1267
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:50,160
what, you know, what a gesture
hit was a kind of cosmic

1268
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:53,320
creative principle, like a
generative, but it's like a

1269
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,920
generative void, like a potent
nothingness that I think is the

1270
01:03:56,920 --> 01:03:59,920
generator of existence, kind of
his existence.

1271
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:05,120
And and it's through through
that kind of vision of you can

1272
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:08,080
come to his vision of just forms
blossoming out of a formless

1273
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:10,240
ground and falling back into in
this empowerment and

1274
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:13,720
interdependent flux.
I think Taoism is something that

1275
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:15,800
really resonates to me.
It feels like I'm rearticulating

1276
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:20,280
a kind of Taoist view, you know,
in the Dow leaching for the

1277
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:22,360
opening lines that the Dow that
can be named as not the eternal

1278
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:23,800
Dow and the Dow just means the
way.

1279
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:27,480
So it's kind of a gesturing
towards this, the way of

1280
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:31,280
existence that the unnameable
blossoming that is yeah,

1281
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:33,200
existence.
And that's what you can kind of

1282
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:35,440
wake up to through spiritual
practice.

1283
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:39,920
So yeah, I think, I think we've
done a good job of picking the

1284
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:42,440
main, the maintenance.
Have you noticed any sort of

1285
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:45,640
everybody who publishes a book
on consciousness has some sort

1286
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:46,520
of pushback?
What is?

1287
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:50,200
What have been your some of your
critiques that you feel you'd

1288
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:53,760
like to address, if any?
Yeah, I mean, it's only it's

1289
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:56,040
only been out for about a month,
so maybe I'm just waiting,

1290
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:57,480
waiting for those to really land
it.

1291
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:00,640
Comes.
Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.

1292
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:04,800
I'm sorry.
Well, yeah, the main, the main

1293
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,560
pushback I've got just in social
media again, is like the use of

1294
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:09,640
the word matter in the title,
people just dismissing the book

1295
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:11,560
out of hand.
Like, again, people in the more

1296
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:13,080
kind of idealist, I think end of
the spectrum.

1297
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:17,520
So there's not much I can do
about that if they don't want to

1298
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:20,680
actually engage with the ideas.
But yeah, I mean, I guess that's

1299
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:23,160
the reassurance I tried to offer
earlier that I think if you're

1300
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:24,800
an idealist, I think you'd
probably find this quite

1301
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:26,520
interesting.
This book, you shouldn't assume,

1302
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:28,960
oh, this is, I know who this is.
This is some scientist who just

1303
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:32,320
thinks matter is matter and the
consciousness is an illusion or

1304
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:34,120
whatever.
There's an invitation there to.

1305
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:37,680
Yeah, to look into it.
And I think something that's

1306
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:40,080
been reassuring is when I've
spoken to kind of colleagues and

1307
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:43,920
people in the neuroscience end
of things, something I've heard

1308
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:48,080
again and again is, you know,
when I when I have the first

1309
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:50,640
conversation with them, some of
them, you know, kind of

1310
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:52,320
convinced.
But there's typically a sense of

1311
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:53,600
like, OK, like I see what you're
saying.

1312
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:54,640
That's not typically how I see
it.

1313
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:58,440
I'll sit with it for a while,
but then they'll often say

1314
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:01,200
something like, I don't see any
like in principle reason why

1315
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:03,120
this can't be the case, like why
it can't be the case that

1316
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:05,720
exists, that experience can
exist with without brains.

1317
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:10,600
And that's the heartening thing
that like, I really, that's why

1318
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:12,760
I want people to open up to
there's no, there's nothing in

1319
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:15,840
philosophy, nothing in science
that says that the electrical

1320
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:20,520
activity in non neural
biological tissue is different

1321
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:23,360
or the neural tissue is magical
in some way.

1322
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:27,680
You know, like that's the,
that's the crack in the armor

1323
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:29,920
that I want people to kind of
start to open up to say, like

1324
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:34,200
this is actually reasonable.
And if it can get rid of the

1325
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:37,400
hard problem, then I think it's
a superior explanation to

1326
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:41,480
clinging on to, you know, human
exceptionalism, neuro neuro

1327
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:44,680
exceptionalism, which comes with
these these philosophical

1328
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:46,920
problems that we can't seem to
fix.

1329
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:52,040
Yeah, I think that's this.
Trying to escape from this, this

1330
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:55,800
ethereal essence like entity of
consciousness, trying to get

1331
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:58,280
away from that has been quite,
quite a problem.

1332
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:02,560
Most people tend to latch onto
this and and that exception.

1333
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:06,640
There's is a big part of this.
There's when when I write about

1334
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:09,440
it, when I talk about it, it
also reminds me of when I named

1335
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:12,640
this podcast mind body solution.
I was thinking at that point,

1336
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:15,720
anyone who believes that there
is no dichotomy might not.

1337
01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:18,880
This is the podcast.
So so I completely feel you when

1338
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:21,240
you're talking about math to be
became conscious and how this

1339
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:24,160
might affect the listener or the
viewer but or the reader.

1340
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:28,320
But this book is actually very,
very it's a very, very good

1341
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:31,600
summary altogether.
In the beginning, when you start

1342
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:38,280
to analyze the perspectives on
consciousness, you I think what

1343
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:41,440
many authors tend to do is I
think give a very poor summary

1344
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:44,000
or explanation, but you've
managed to understand all these

1345
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:46,840
concepts very well.
You think there's a reason that

1346
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:49,520
you that you've been able to
understand each one.

1347
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:52,760
Maybe mysterionism, idealism,
materialism, all of these

1348
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:55,440
concepts.
Do you find that your openness

1349
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:59,640
in essence has made you more
receptive to these theories?

1350
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:01,960
Yeah, I do.
I do think the sorry.

1351
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:04,920
About that.
No, no, it's great.

1352
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:11,360
Yeah, except I think the yeah, I
mentioned how I feel like you

1353
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:13,840
could say the unfolding of
awakening of spirituality in

1354
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:17,080
life feels primary and then this
activity, writing ideas for

1355
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:19,640
secondary.
And I guess so you could say if

1356
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:23,000
I was writing this from an ego
place, then I think that creates

1357
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:25,720
things or so I don't want to
focus on that because I want to

1358
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:28,359
give this impression of myself
and this I think I'm coming from

1359
01:08:28,359 --> 01:08:32,240
a fundamental.
Yeah, I mentioned as well the

1360
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:35,760
desire to invite people into
greater well-being and

1361
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:38,279
peacefulness without any
bullshit, basically without any

1362
01:08:38,279 --> 01:08:41,960
games, without any nonsense.
And so when that that sincerity

1363
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:44,399
is there, I think that
authenticity of like, yeah, I

1364
01:08:44,399 --> 01:08:47,080
have an open invitation to to
come into understanding and

1365
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:49,240
connection.
Then there's a thing of all

1366
01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:51,359
right, well that let's do this
kind of objectively.

1367
01:08:51,359 --> 01:08:53,120
Let's work through each
perspective and try and lay it

1368
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:55,920
out as clearly as I can because
because of that sincerity.

1369
01:08:57,120 --> 01:08:58,160
So, yeah, I think I think you're
right.

1370
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:00,439
I think that is that is why it's
the case.

1371
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:03,000
But I'm really glad that it,
I've heard that, yeah, multiple

1372
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:05,040
times.
So that's another picture of the

1373
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:06,240
book.
Even if you're not interested in

1374
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:08,920
my particular perspective, you
could just enjoy learning about

1375
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:11,080
other perspectives if you read
the first first.

1376
01:09:11,080 --> 01:09:13,240
But.
Yeah, it's a very good summary

1377
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:16,359
for anyone who's intrigued by
the mind body problem and this

1378
01:09:16,359 --> 01:09:18,840
concept.
You're I think it was chapter 1

1379
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:23,040
where you you really give
analysis of the different

1380
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:25,160
perspectives of consciousness.
And I really enjoyed that.

1381
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:27,520
Tell me.
And also, I mean, not so much

1382
01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:31,040
for this audience, but yeah, I
guess if you want to gift it to

1383
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:33,760
someone else like it is, it can
literally be, I think the first

1384
01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:35,640
book you've ever read on the
mind or the brain or anything,

1385
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:37,200
you know, because I, I try to
start at the beginning.

1386
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:41,200
I'm, I'm, I'm not saying that I
think this audience would still

1387
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:43,560
enjoy the book, but I meant that
aspect of it could be really

1388
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:46,200
useful if you know anyone who
you want to bring up to why this

1389
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:48,560
stuff's interesting, who, who
isn't already on board with

1390
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:50,399
them.
Yeah, it's a, it's a perfect

1391
01:09:50,399 --> 01:09:52,200
building block.
And then obviously you go into

1392
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:55,760
the much deeper aspects into it.
But as a baseline starting

1393
01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:58,320
point, I think it's actually an
excellent summary of these

1394
01:09:58,320 --> 01:09:59,080
concepts all.
Thank you.

1395
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:03,280
So, so well done on that because
I know it's very difficult to to

1396
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:05,200
capture the essence of this mind
body problem.

1397
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:07,600
It's such a, it's such a
beautiful problem and it's

1398
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:09,360
philosophy's most infamous
problem.

1399
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:14,400
What about it you love so much?
Yeah, I mean, I think it was, it

1400
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:18,320
was the frustration of the gap,
the sense of needing, having a

1401
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:21,880
real existential anxiety about
wanting to know what's going on

1402
01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:24,720
in in reality and seeing that
there was a gap.

1403
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:27,360
And the gap suggests that you
haven't got a full picture.

1404
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:28,520
There's something wrong with
your picture.

1405
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:34,040
So the fascination came from
that, that desire for wholeness,

1406
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:37,760
I guess that desire for, for,
yeah, reckoning with reality.

1407
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:40,800
So I guess that's what I loved
about it was just it's it's,

1408
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:43,880
it's, it's the place to zoom in
on if you really want to

1409
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:48,320
understand reality.
And James, if you had to give

1410
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:52,640
anyone delving into this field
and a message for understanding

1411
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:55,960
the mind, method, consciousness,
life, what would it be?

1412
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:58,800
I.
Think it would be that my

1413
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:02,080
instinct is we need to be
thinking about we don't be

1414
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:03,880
thinking so much about the
neuroscience of consciousness.

1415
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:05,960
That's really useful as one
exemplar of consciousness

1416
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:08,600
systems that we know are
conscious that to study, but we

1417
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:10,560
should be if we want to
understand why it exists.

1418
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:12,760
We should be thinking about
perhaps the biophysics of

1419
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:17,120
consciousness or the OR just
complex system dynamics like the

1420
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:20,040
physics of forms.
Something a lot more general and

1421
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:24,120
to do with complex forms rather
than computations and brains.

1422
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:27,520
And your channel.
You explore this quite in depth.

1423
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:28,880
I'll put a link to that below as
well.

1424
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:35,640
What is your overall goal?
Yeah, I think it's that, that

1425
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:39,800
unpacking because this in its
core, I think this, this vision

1426
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:42,840
of reality is quite simple, but
it's, it has many facets to it.

1427
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:45,880
So it's to yeah, I've had the
pleasure of talking to lots of

1428
01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:48,600
great thinkers on, on the
related topics and to, to flesh

1429
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:52,040
out how I see things in case
it's helpful for people.

1430
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:55,320
Yeah, that's always been been
the goal.

1431
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:58,720
It's been, it's, it's quite cool
because we we're doing similar

1432
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:01,640
things from different
perspectives and we've chatted

1433
01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:04,760
to quite a few similar guests
and this experience has been

1434
01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:07,320
quite wonderful for me.
I always feel super honoured and

1435
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:09,800
privileged when I chat to people
on this podcast.

1436
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:12,360
How has that been for your
experience in this in this?

1437
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:15,760
Yeah, it's been wonderful.
I mean, yeah, you've had on

1438
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:20,640
really excellent guests and the
yeah, as a as a vibe, but it the

1439
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:23,200
it's felt very heartening like
that people are willing to give

1440
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:25,000
the time and to to chat about
these ideas.

1441
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:27,240
It's, I'm very, I feel very
lucky to be, to live in the age

1442
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:30,040
of podcasting, you know, because
like, if this has happened in

1443
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:33,160
the 90s or something, it would
have struggled to, to have

1444
01:12:33,160 --> 01:12:35,360
contact with these people.
And the fact that they're, you

1445
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:37,600
can just send an e-mail and the
same day sometimes you're

1446
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:40,320
talking to someone who's work
you really admire is, is really

1447
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:40,800
wonderful.
Yeah.

1448
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:43,920
And it's crazy how we actually
missed each other so many times.

1449
01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:48,040
Yeah, yeah, we, we each, we each
contacted each other and missed

1450
01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:50,440
each other's messages and then
eventually when they landed.

1451
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:52,880
Another way that the universe
just finds a way of working

1452
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:55,160
itself out.
I mean, so much for your

1453
01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:58,240
contribution.
This book's amazing and I'm I'm

1454
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:00,400
still going through it.
It's because it's, it's such a

1455
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:02,200
wonderful read and it's such an
easy read.

1456
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:05,880
Have you always been someone who
enjoys writing or is this has

1457
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:06,960
been something that you got
lucky?

1458
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:10,040
With no, I would say, I would
say communications always come

1459
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:13,880
naturally that the yeah, I've
really enjoyed always read,

1460
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:16,920
enjoyed reading non fiction and
I never thought of myself as a

1461
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:18,720
writer, but I always thought
myself as a communicator.

1462
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:23,720
There's something, again, some
deep desire for connection in

1463
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:27,000
terms of bringing people into
common understandings, like

1464
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:29,680
almost like a peacemaker
instinct of like, yeah, trying

1465
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:34,400
to that's there for some reason.
And so, yeah, like writing it

1466
01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:36,760
down was just another, you know,
instead of giving talks or doing

1467
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:39,880
podcasts.
Yeah, I think that that

1468
01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:42,400
commutative instinct was was
always there.

1469
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:46,440
If you if you were to recommend
the average listener of this

1470
01:13:46,440 --> 01:13:50,120
podcast a your favorite
nonfiction and fiction book,

1471
01:13:50,120 --> 01:13:53,400
what would those be?
That's interesting.

1472
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:56,840
I've got toddler now, so it's
been a while since I really sat

1473
01:13:56,840 --> 01:13:58,840
down with a good with a good
book, especially with fiction.

1474
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:05,160
Yeah, that's that's interesting.
I think, I mean, I incomplete

1475
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:09,240
nature, you know, it's very
related to the book, to my book.

1476
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:11,800
I think that's a wonderful,
wonderful read.

1477
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:20,000
If you're interested in my body
problem fiction, Nabokov was one

1478
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:23,080
of my favourites, as you know,
kind of lifelong favorite.

1479
01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:25,680
Slowly There is a truly
incredible book.

1480
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:29,200
I know people sometimes forget
the subject matter thing.

1481
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:32,480
That's a kind of weird book to
recommend, but it's his.

1482
01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:35,400
He's a Russian who's writing in
a second language and it's his

1483
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:41,040
his, his writing is incredible.
Say anything by Nabokov.

1484
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:44,040
That actually reminds me because
one of the questions I had for

1485
01:14:44,040 --> 01:14:49,360
you was on Carlos book Helgeland
and and the way you understand

1486
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:50,680
matter.
Do you want to quickly touch on

1487
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:52,400
that and the way you're?
Yeah, yeah.

1488
01:14:52,600 --> 01:14:55,040
Your interpretation of nature
falls in place with this.

1489
01:14:55,920 --> 01:15:00,000
Absolutely my computers on low
battery so if I cut out that'll

1490
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:05,160
be why just so you know yes
actually Helgeland I definitely

1491
01:15:05,160 --> 01:15:08,600
recommend as well.
So that's a this, this quantum

1492
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:16,800
mechanical relational view of
reality where where the, every

1493
01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:18,920
the things that we perceive as
particles are actually just

1494
01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:21,640
instances of interaction.
So when you measure the spin of

1495
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:25,080
a particle, it's not that you
exist and as an object as a

1496
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:27,320
solid thing and the particle
exists as a solid thing and

1497
01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:30,680
you're both real and it has a
property and that you look at

1498
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:31,840
that property and you measure
it.

1499
01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:36,280
Rather, there is the there is
existence interacting with

1500
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:38,880
itself through those
embodiments, through this thing

1501
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:42,080
we call body and that moment
that we call it the particle and

1502
01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:44,720
the observation of the spin is
kind of what exists.

1503
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:49,160
It's it's a web of interactions.
And then it's our minds that

1504
01:15:49,440 --> 01:15:51,680
solidify that into a perception
of solid objects.

1505
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:53,040
And I think, well, surely
there's going to be a solid

1506
01:15:53,040 --> 01:15:56,200
thing because at this scale as a
primate, that's how I perceive

1507
01:15:56,200 --> 01:15:57,960
the world.
But there's no reason to think

1508
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:00,760
that that feel that feeling of
solid substantial substance, you

1509
01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:03,760
know, objects generalizes to the
fabric of reality.

1510
01:16:04,200 --> 01:16:06,720
So I think the fabric of reality
fits with with Buddhism, the

1511
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:11,840
sense of being a, an empty
insubstantial web of relations

1512
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:16,800
of interdependent occurrences.
So you can imagine like the zero

1513
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:19,640
energy universe hypothesis where
you get positive energy and

1514
01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:21,520
negative energy perfectly cancel
each other out.

1515
01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:24,760
So you get in that way, you can
think of starting with nothing

1516
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:26,400
with zero energy.
And when you get something from

1517
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:30,360
nothing by this flux where up is
not down, hot is not cold, there

1518
01:16:30,360 --> 01:16:32,800
isn't actually an averaged out
thing that you don't actually

1519
01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:35,400
have to put anything into the
system, any net energy, but you

1520
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:37,480
just have this polarization.
This is kind of what a

1521
01:16:37,480 --> 01:16:40,560
relational dynamic is.
Everything's cashed out against

1522
01:16:40,560 --> 01:16:44,040
you, everything else, and so you
get a very complex form of

1523
01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:46,960
relational flux that's always in
change.

1524
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:50,720
I think that's what reality is,
and I think our best physics is

1525
01:16:50,720 --> 01:16:54,520
now pointing to that.
Well, James, thank you so much

1526
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:56,240
for your time.
This is a wonderful book.

1527
01:16:56,280 --> 01:16:59,560
I will definitely put a link,
and I really appreciate your

1528
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:01,840
time and your efforts and your
contributions to the field.

1529
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:04,320
So thanks so much for that.
Yeah, thank you.

1530
01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:05,320
Yeah.
And I appreciate your podcast.

1531
01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:06,800
I really like what you're doing.
And thanks Henry all.