Gunnar Babcock: What is The Split-Body Problem? Rethinking Our Understanding of How Life Reproduces

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The vast majority of life is
microbial by magnitudes and

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magnitudes, many orders of
magnitudes, right?

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When we think about life as we
know it, however, again, however

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you want to define that, but in
kind of the set of things that

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we currently consider as alive,
the vast majority of it all

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plays by this kind of weird
asexual modes of reproduction

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where things reproduce through
fission processes.

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The weird, odd exceptions are
the sexually reproducing things.

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Like us, we are the a tiny
minority, right?

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So what we take is normal and
kind of the average way to think

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about this is really just not
how life works at all.

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We're the weirdos often, you
know, you look at the

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phylogenetic tree where we're
this teeny tiny little branch

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way off there that really
doesn't matter.

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Gonna Let's start off by
defining concepts.

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This is mind body solution and
you wrote a really wonderful

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paper called the split body
problem.

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And as everyone knows, this
podcast focuses on the mind body

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problem.
So I think it's it's a beautiful

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topic to discuss.
But before we begin, let's start

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off with a definition of life
and reproduction.

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Oh, you're, you're starting off
with challenging questions here.

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OK, well, so defining life goes
without saying.

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Notoriously difficult.
There is not a satisfactory

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definition yet.
They're kind of all sorts of

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ways that you can do it.
Probably some of the most

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helpful candidates right now
would be like metabolic

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definitions.
However, I actually advocate for

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elsewhere, not, not in this
particular project or this

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particular paper, but elsewhere.
I'm an advocate for actually

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getting rid of the kind of
binary life, non life division

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that I think that's kind of a
conceptual vestige, if you you

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want to call it that, that, that
we actually need to start

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dispensing with that.
Actually, the more it's been

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explored what you see going on
in astrobiology and what you see

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happening in physics, it's
really it just is not a useful

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concept to be deploying anymore.
I think we need more nuanced

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frameworks that maybe the Venn
diagram overlaps very

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consistently in a lot of areas,
but but not enough to to merit

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the the life concept any longer.
That, to say the least, is a

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very controversial position to
take, but that that is the one

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that I take.
That having all been said, I

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think that, you know, very
broadly speaking it it is not

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particularly challenging to kind
of pick out generally what you

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want to say is, is in the life
and what's not OK, Then

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reproduction.
Reproduction similarly is a

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thorny thing to try to define,
although in the philosophical

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literature and the Phil Bio
literature there are kind of a

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couple ways of doing this.
Some of the most dominant

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accounts, or or rather I should
say the two most dominant

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accounts, one comes from Jim
Griesemer and the other one

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comes from Peter Godfrey Smith
and actually jointly with him,

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Dan Dennett, I think actually
helped develop the account.

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And the point of tension between
those two accounts has to do

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with material overlap.
But roughly speaking, they

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defined reproduction or
replication.

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And as far as you can kind of
align those two as a process

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where there has to be
development material overlap,

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again, that's the controversial
one that Jim Greesmer argues

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needs to be there.
And then some sort of

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continuity, so lineage
formation.

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And before we continue with the
reproduction, I like that you

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touched on the this is the
spectrum of life and there's a

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non binary approach to it
because I was first introduced

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to your work by Mike Levin and
we've spoken on the podcast a

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few times and this is something
he's very passionate about.

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Just trying to break away from
this concept.

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I, I noticed you, Daniel, Mike,
Mark Solms have had many chats

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together.
What brought all of this about?

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What's the what's this journey
been like?

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What's going on?
Well, so Dan Mcshay and myself,

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we have a theory of how goal
directed systems work.

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We call that field theory.
And Mike Levin is very

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interested in agency and goal
directiveness.

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So we've had a few conversations
with him and though I think Mike

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and Dan and I might differ on a,
a kind of some of the, the

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really nuanced details they're
in, though honestly, we actually

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haven't kind of really compared
notes in a lot of ways.

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There's a tremendous amount of
overlap from the way Mike Levin

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thinks about goal directedness
and agency in the way that Dan

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and I do.
So actually, I think at the end

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of the day, we end up having
this kind of graded notion of

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the concept.
It's it's, you know, it, it

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permeates a lot more than what
people would typically think it

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does.
So, yeah.

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So there's kind of Levin, Dan
and I, you know, we're all in

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that corner of thing.
Hence, hence the discussions

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we've had.
And then with Mark Solms, we

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ended up having a conversation
with him because particularly

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Dan Mcshay is interested in kind
of how affective profiles and

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psychology plays into kind of
how goal directed systems work.

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And a lot of Mark's work kind of
sits in that realm, too.

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I've been fortunate to chat to
both of them.

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Mark's actually from Cape Town
as well, so I always love

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putting that plug in there for
him whenever I get.

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Yeah, yeah, I, I figured, I
thought maybe that's how you ran

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across me.
Is this conversation I had with

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Mark.
So yeah.

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So it's, it's really cool.
I think the the South African

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within me is always excited to
talk about Mark's work whenever

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I get the chance.
But you guys have had some

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fascinating conversations and
when I speak to Mike and his

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passion is curiosity about life,
I see that with you and Dan as

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well.
And in your Spit body problem

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paper, you start off immediately
by addressing the difference and

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the importance of distinguishing
between production and

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reproduction and production
being something like cutting a

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piece of paper in half.
Let's let's talk about this and

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address that problem.
What what?

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What's the difference there and
why is it so important?

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Yeah.
So the first thing I need to do

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is say that that I'm, this is
all Jim Griesmer.

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So this is not my original work.
I am taking this all wholesale

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from him.
In fact, I think the photocopy

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example is actually one of his.
So I, I cannot take credit for

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any of this.
But Jim, you know, he, he's very

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methodical and does a really
nice job in distinguishing kind

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of what you want from an account
of production as opposed to 1 of

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reproduction, which is, you
know, obviously critically where

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we would count biological
systems.

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So you have kind of growth and
development, right.

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But mirror production you just
get.

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So I'll, well, I'll work through
the photocopy example.

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So in the photocopy example,
what he's noting is that you

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might have, you know, you put
something in a photocopter, make

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a copy of it.
You say, hey, that's a, a

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reproductive process.
But unless it's in fact the same

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sheet of material, he would say
that there's no overlap, there's

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no lineage between the two
because you don't.

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Now you could push back on that
in various ways, but you know,

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just from a, a 30,000 foot view,
there's no material overlap

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there.
And sorting that out from

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production, the reason he wants
to do that is because, you know,

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if you take a, a sheet of paper,
cut it in half, you can say

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there has been material overlap
between those two entities.

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However, they don't go on to
develop.

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Hence you need the development
criterion.

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So you can kind of, you can
point at these cases of mere

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production where you have
material that overlaps between a

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process, but those processes
don't go on to develop.

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And then you can point it cases
where you have development, say

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like a Aspen Grove that you know
grows exponentially, but without

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that sort of splitting process,
it's not clear as though you

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have that lineage formation
taking place, Hence the

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hopefully that gets at the
distinction for you.

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Yeah, you, you mentioned
Christmas work and these

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criteria.
How influential has he been on

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this field and and and what's it
done to add to our understanding

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of reproduction?
Well, so in the field of

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philosophy, biology mostly where
I'm kind of I'm concerned with

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things, it's definitely one of
the the two most dominant

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accounts.
It's, it's been influential in

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the field.
However, I think in the larger

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kind of world of biology,
there's not a lot of notice

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taken.
And I think that's because

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unfortunately the process of
reproduction is often treated in

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the simplicitor and it's not
given as much consideration as

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it should be given.
And actually in my technical

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paper on this topic, which is
in, I think I God, now you're

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challenging me to remember the
names of my papers.

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I think it's asexual organisms
identity and vertical gene

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transfer.
I'll.

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Put it as well.
In in that paper, I actually

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cite a bunch of cases actually
prominently from microbiology

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where I think the way that
reproduction is thought about

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and deployed is, is kind of
confused when you see

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microbiologists talking about
the process that we'll talk

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about lineage, so one generation
to the next, but then they talk

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about a parent and a daughter as
both daughter cells or not.

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So there's this, this deep
confusion, right?

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And so that was actually where
the whole project started for me

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as I just made this observation
that, you know, the typical way

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we think about generations in
macro organisms just does not

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easily map on to the micro
world.

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Yeah, and you in the paper at
some point you discuss what I

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labeled as the curious cases of
fission.

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And you, you, you talk about
let's say bacterium like E coli.

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And when a single bacterium
splits into two, all these two

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bacteria then best thought of as
offspring, siblings or something

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else entirely.
So that's, that's pretty when

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people think about this, they
don't really think about that.

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And, and I know as a doctor,
when even when we did

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microbiology, you're right,
this, they often talk about it

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in this parental daughter cell.
And there's no, there's no real

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thought behind the philosophy of
this.

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And and I think it's pretty
insightful when you do break it

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up into these concepts.
Yeah.

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I think it's not only insightful
in that it kind of challenges I

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think a lot of our macro
conceptual frameworks.

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But the other thing that I
always like to push a lot when I

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give this presentation or or
when I've talked about it in the

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past is that I think it's also
just so absolutely critical to

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remember that the vast majority
of life is microbial.

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I mean by magnitudes and
magnitudes, many orders of

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magnitudes, right.
So when we think about life as

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we know it, however, again,
however you want to define that,

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but in kind of the, the set of
things that we currently

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consider as a lie, the vast
majority of it all plays by this

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kind of weird asexual modes of
reproduction where things

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reproduced through fission
processes.

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The, the weird, odd exceptions
are the sexually reproducing

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things like us, we are the, we
are the tiny minority, right?

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So what we take is normal and
kind of the average way to think

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about this is really just not
how life works at all.

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We're the weirdos often, you
know, you look at the

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phylogenetic tree, we're, we're
this teeny tiny little branch

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way off there that really
doesn't matter.

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So I also really like to press
the importance of understanding

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how this reproduction happens
through fission, through asexual

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processes.
I mean, that's really the the

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way life reproduces life we know
of, anyhow.

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And, and at some point you
mentioned the, I mean, it's a

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simple comment, but you say
something like there are

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millions of species of microbes,
not not microbes, but millions

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of species.
And then and then that really is

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something you have to think
about because we can't say the

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same for us.
Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, I can run through all
sorts of statistics.

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I think you can point at stats
like what, in one cubic yard of

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soil, there are more
microorganisms than there are

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stars in the Milky Way Galaxy by
several orders of magnitude.

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So, yeah, I mean, don't, I'm
going off the top of my head

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here.
Don't, don't quote me on that,

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but I, you know, I go look at
the paper, I, I cite the stuff

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correctly there.
People.

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People are about that, trust me.
So yeah, I mean, I think it's,

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00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:13,280
it's really key to realize
really how how crucial this

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understanding of reproduction is
because it is the way life

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00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,400
reproduces.
Yeah, and it's, it's also

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00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,640
intriguing because at some point
you touch on the fact that, and

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I think this goes into, well,
we'll discuss this later, but

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00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,880
it, it explores individuality
and connectedness.

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00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:32,800
At some point, this is even when
we think of a human being and we

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talk about the fact that we have
trillions of cells.

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00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,200
Let's, well, don't quote me on
this, but let's say this 3030

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00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,000
trillion human cells.
The human body probably has

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00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,160
about 39 trillion bacterial
cells.

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00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,920
So the question then arises, are
we bacteria or are we human?

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00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,600
How do you see something like
this or a question like this?

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00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,120
Of course, there's made-up.
I'm not really sure of the

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00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,560
actual cell, no.
No, great.

242
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,440
And it brings up the whole of my
own concept and all that sort of

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00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,560
stuff.
So all sorts of questions and

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00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:05,560
individuality here again, what I
can mostly point to or what I'll

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00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,320
say before I I put my own cards
on the tables.

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00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,520
There's been a lot of
interesting work done by people

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00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:15,560
like Derek Skillings and Marine
O'Malley on this these issues.

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00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:22,120
So somebody like Derek has
pointed out that on the one

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00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,560
hand, this does just kind of
seem like an interesting

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00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,360
philosophical question, right?
And you you get to think about,

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00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,800
Hey, what are we really?
But it it actually does really

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00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,760
have real practical implications
in things like medicine.

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00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:40,760
So, for example, right, if you
think you're the microbial

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00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:46,120
communities that reside within
us in one sense of things are

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00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,440
actually parts of us that we do
form a a sort of polybiot,

256
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:51,840
right?
How you treat those, how you

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00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,960
might prescribe an antibiotic,
things like that may vastly

258
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,960
different or or different than
if you think actually we're just

259
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:02,000
kind of these Co travelers,
right?

260
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,720
That I am myself and it just so
happens that I I drag along with

261
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,480
me all these other things, but
they're not really parts of me.

262
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,520
And you can actually look at a
lot of evolutionary evidence to

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00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:14,360
kind of try to answer that
question.

264
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,600
So actually, I think Derek's
position, Derek Skillings would

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00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:22,360
say something like the idea that
we are a hollow Biome might not

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00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,280
actually be quite as tenable as
you would initially think,

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00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,760
because the evolutionary
trajectories of all those

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00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,200
microbes that follow me around,
they're really man, they're

269
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,040
moving around, they're
transitory, right?

270
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,160
The the lineages of those
microbes don't necessarily

271
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,080
follow the lineage of my parents
in the same way.

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00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,600
So while I sure share a lot of
the same microbial community

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00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:48,360
that say my maternal lineage has
and and paternal, but more so

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00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:53,240
maternal boy, me hanging out in
my environment for the last 41

275
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,680
years has shifted that up a lot,
right?

276
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,800
And and the the lineage of those
microbes that you'd find to me

277
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,680
now have sure vastly changed
from the ones you might find in

278
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:07,599
my mom today.
So, so if you think an

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00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:12,480
evolutionary individual that is
thing that travels through

280
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:17,240
evolutionary time along a
lineage is the way that you

281
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,000
should think about
individuality, then you know, me

282
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,000
and my microbial community
probably aren't one of those

283
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:27,599
right now, if you think of it
differently, right?

284
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:31,120
If you think of individuality as
being something where you need

285
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:34,960
functional integration, where
I'm dependent on that microbial

286
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,880
community, then I think you get
a lot more cohesion, right?

287
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,320
In that case.
Yeah, I think that there's a lot

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00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,400
more interdependence that all
that.

289
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,760
I mean, there's just been
fantastic work that I'm sure you

290
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,520
followed and, and I think it's
actually getting a lot of

291
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,600
attention and, and kind of pop
science currently on how

292
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,480
integrated right we are with our
microbiome and, and how that

293
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,240
affects everything from, you
know, mental health and what

294
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,760
goes on in the brain and and so
on and so forth.

295
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,760
And anybody that's probably ever
appreciated.

296
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,920
So that physiological or
functional integration is

297
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,600
another way you might think
about an individual or what I

298
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,120
would call physiological
individual.

299
00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:15,840
And that seems more cohesive.
So an evolutionary individual,

300
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,560
probably not physiological
individual.

301
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,400
Yeah, I I think you have a good
case there.

302
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,280
And I think that's the beauty
behind the philosophy of

303
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:28,080
biology, is that the
practicality behind it is so

304
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,160
significant.
There's so much that this will

305
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:31,880
change.
I mean, one mere sentence of

306
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,680
like saying, OK, if you put the
same plot, the same plant in a

307
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,040
different pot, is it the same
plant?

308
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,320
I mean, these types of questions
really do change the game in

309
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,400
terms of how we treat patients,
how we see things like cloning,

310
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,520
any form of genetic mutation.
It's it's it's really

311
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:49,840
insightful, but more so
practical.

312
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:52,920
Yeah, I, I think that that's
absolutely true.

313
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,040
And I think as far as kind of
even the ethical questions that

314
00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:01,440
we might ask.
So, for example, you know, is it

315
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:08,040
problematic to sample the
microbiome of indigenous

316
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,960
communities around the globe to
get sampling for, you know,

317
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,560
treatment of different medicines
and whatnot?

318
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,520
How much ownership do they have?
How much, you know, is that

319
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,200
their microbiome?
How much of that is them that

320
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,720
you're really using right?
And if that's true, then, you

321
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,680
know, we owe a lot more to those
communities than typically I

322
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,480
think the research and medical
communities might be giving

323
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,280
them.
So it, it actually, I think it

324
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,400
has a lot of impact and, and all
sorts of disparate areas that

325
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,720
you might not initially be
thinking about.

326
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,920
So, yeah, these these questions
aren't yeah, I mean, to me,

327
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,760
they're philosophically
fascinating.

328
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,920
And I thought think that there's
a tremendous amount of epistemic

329
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,120
value and, and thinking about
them.

330
00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:50,960
But but there is a lot of
practical import too.

331
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,640
Well, well, let's stick on to
that, that concept that we're

332
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,320
talking about with plants and
you talk about the devil's Ivy

333
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:03,160
and how does cutting this and
replanting the shoot challenge

334
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,360
our ideas of reproduction?
So would you call the new plant

335
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,280
that you put an offspring a
clone or another part of the

336
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,720
same Organism?
Yeah.

337
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:17,880
So this is a kind of great way
of getting at the problem that

338
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,520
you see in microbes because
obviously it goes up to the more

339
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:22,720
macro stuff too.
Basically, I'd argue, and

340
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:27,280
anything that reproduces through
various modes of asexual

341
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,640
reproduction, right?
Any plant that basically

342
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:35,000
propagates, whether it's devil's
eye be a strawberry plant out in

343
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,160
your garden or whatever.
I mean, in the world of botany,

344
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:45,400
this is also ubiquitous, right?
I think the question there is if

345
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,480
you go off of a genetic
criterion, then you're looking

346
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:57,320
at what?
Oh, who were the names of these

347
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:02,480
botmists or not?
Janzen, Janzen, Daniel Janzen

348
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:08,160
and a few other botanists in the
70s came up with terminology for

349
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:08,760
this.
Gen.

350
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,640
X were what they termed in this
way.

351
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,000
So something that is genetically
a clone, right?

352
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,120
It, it carries the same genes,
counts as a sort of individual,

353
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:21,920
but they're they're basically
giving up on the criterion that

354
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,680
you need the spatial
connectivity for an individual

355
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,360
in biology, which of course, if
you apply that to the microbial

356
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:33,240
world gets totally crazy really
quickly.

357
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:38,480
So if you entertain that as an
actual real viable possibility,

358
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,480
then the types of individuals
that you're identifying kind of

359
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,040
in the biological world and
living world all of a sudden

360
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:51,280
are, you know, spread over vast,
vast kind of ecological areas

361
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,880
and largely don't have this sort
of functional integration, this

362
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,400
sort of physiological unity that
we would typically associate

363
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,000
with something like an Organism.
So it's a very different type of

364
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,560
individual than than what we
normally would want to identify

365
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,920
or or I think that biologists
typically identify.

366
00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:14,320
So I entertain that and
basically say, you know what?

367
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,320
What happens when you start
thinking about the world on in

368
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,320
those terms and it looks a lot
different.

369
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,680
And when when you talk about you
mentioned the Janet's, I think

370
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,280
your paper also discusses the
Rammets.

371
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,800
Do you want to also just touch
on that before you before we

372
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,960
move on to the next part?
Yeah, absolutely.

373
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,680
So Rammet is the, the kind of
the other side of the coin on

374
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:42,600
that, that Janzen identified
there where that would be the,

375
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:48,560
the individual dandelion or the
individual, you know, Devil's IV

376
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:53,600
plant or, or what not where you
would use kind of the spatial

377
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:59,080
connectivity or spatial
awareness as the criterion for

378
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,760
identifying something or that
physiological integration.

379
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,440
And when we think about, so this
is separation, and we're talking

380
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,760
more about separation in
general, but then there's also

381
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,800
the interconnectedness and
something becoming 1.

382
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,880
So if we look at the case of
inosculation, where 2 separate

383
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,680
trees grow into one another, do
they become one tree?

384
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,560
Well, what's going on here?
Yeah, yeah.

385
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,280
So it, of course, it goes, goes
both ways, right, Fission and

386
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,880
fusion.
And I think again, it's easy to

387
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,280
discount all the ways in which
these fusion processes happen

388
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,040
across biology.
Some of my favorite examples

389
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,120
actually come from, well,
basically squids which go

390
00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:42,680
through these processes all the
time.

391
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,120
In fact, I think there's been a
couple really great papers

392
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:50,200
recently that have identified
how, oh boy, I wish I knew the

393
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,240
paper and the authors off the
top of my head.

394
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,560
But just recently there's a
species of squid that baffled

395
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,120
researchers because they had two
of them in a tank.

396
00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:01,880
And then they came in the next
morning and there was only one.

397
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,080
And they wondered what the hell
happened here.

398
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,840
And what they discovered is that
this species of squid can

399
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,600
actually unify, which others
can.

400
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,600
And this links up to what I
think is a really important

401
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,640
question that undergirds all
this because typically what I

402
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,080
found both in a microbial
research and in in kind of the

403
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,720
more macro stuff is that the way
you think about functional

404
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:33,440
immortality or bio indefinancy
is typically the way that

405
00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:36,960
individuals are usually picked
out.

406
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,160
So cases where you have true
symmetry in fission and fusion

407
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:47,440
processes are where you have
immortal gene lines or something

408
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,080
like that, or germ models.
That's that's pretty cool.

409
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,440
I mean, what?
How do you think that 18th

410
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,320
century biologists and the
approach that's quite prominent

411
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,600
today even in in terms of the
way we think would tackle a

412
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,360
question like that or a concept
like that regarding this fusion

413
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:07,480
of squid and, and how would it
differ today with the approach

414
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:14,520
that you guys are coming up with
or slowly evolving well?

415
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:22,920
So I think historically there's
been a propensity towards

416
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,120
identifying spatial
connectedness.

417
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,880
And I think that that's for
obvious reasons, not because it

418
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,280
was a, a mistake or a, a special
bias.

419
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,760
I mean, just when you think
about the history of all this,

420
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,640
right?
If you don't have a microscope,

421
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,720
it's going to point you in
certain directions, right?

422
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,640
So as we have more tools at our
disposal and you learn more

423
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,880
things, you get to see the world
from new vantage points and, you

424
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,720
know, new stuff, it comes
available to you.

425
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:59,240
But yeah, the, the privileging
of spatial connectivity is kind

426
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:05,760
of what I, I suggest we need to
stop doing, even though it's

427
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:10,640
easy to do that.
But what I will quickly note

428
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:16,240
here is that on the one hand,
like the concept of a genet is

429
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,160
deeply informative.
It's revolutionary in all sorts

430
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,000
of ways.
I think it's a brilliant bit of

431
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,320
work that comes out of botany
that has not gotten enough

432
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,720
attention.
However, it doesn't entirely

433
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,840
solve the problem, right?
So if Janet's are things and

434
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,760
they are biologically real
entities that we ought to be

435
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,520
paying more attention to, it's
not entirely clear how they

436
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:46,480
reproduce, because there it
looks like the growth and

437
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,600
development of a Janet is the
reproduction of a Ramit.

438
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,720
So how do these Janets then
reproduce?

439
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,200
Or do they?
Presumably they would have to,

440
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,440
otherwise where did they come
from?

441
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,680
Right?
You can look at modes of like

442
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,200
persistent selection.
That might be one way of

443
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,840
thinking about it, but seems
like the new criteria you would

444
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,720
have to think about reproduction
is in difference of say genetic

445
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,080
material or traits or things
like that.

446
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,720
Which again kind of goes back to
this morphological spatial

447
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,480
criterion of identifying
individuals, which I'm a little

448
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,000
dicey about for all these it's
embroiled history.

449
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,920
I've scheduled a conversation
between Terence Deacon and

450
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,000
Michael Evans, so it's going to
happen in about a few, maybe a

451
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,480
month or two.
Oh fantastic.

452
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,920
Yes, I'm, I'm really looking
forward to these two chatting

453
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,920
about mobile dynamics,
thermodynamics, and then teleo

454
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,640
dynamics because this is also
something you are very much

455
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,640
familiar with and focus on quite
a bit.

456
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,480
What, what are your views on, on
both of these thinkers and their

457
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,720
possible differences, if you, if
you don't mind me asking?

458
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,440
It's going to happen.
Soon, not at all.

459
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:08,960
So I I love Deacon's work.
He, he is absolutely fantastic.

460
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,640
His teleodynamics and some of
the thinking that he's applied

461
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:18,400
to teleological systems.
I think besides, of course,

462
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,240
Dan's my own work, which
obviously I think is the right

463
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:27,040
account.
I, I very much like his.

464
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,920
He's a brilliant guy.
He and the philosopher that he

465
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,080
also has co-authored a lot of
this stuff with whose name is

466
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,560
not going to come to me off the
top of my head, but they're both

467
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,680
fantastic and and I really like
the work.

468
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:50,040
However, I how how might a
conversation between him and

469
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,480
Mike play out?
Well, I, I really, I can't

470
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,800
speculate on that other than to
say I will definitely watch that

471
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,960
episode when you have it.
So let me know.

472
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,480
I'll send you the link for sure.
Do you think they disagree more

473
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,720
than agree or do you think it's
going to be a very constructive

474
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,240
conversation?
I believe it would be.

475
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,560
I, I think it'll be very
constructive.

476
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,440
I do think from my perspective,
I probably end up more on the

477
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:21,280
side of Mike, mostly because I
thought more about Terence's

478
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,680
stuff.
And I do think that there are,

479
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,400
well, there's some points of
disagreement between Dan, myself

480
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,760
and, and I think how Terence
thinks about these things.

481
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,320
We're, we're kind of rabid
externalists, I guess in a

482
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:35,800
certain way.
I.

483
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,760
Think, let's go into that and
and discuss this.

484
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,440
You guys introduced the
fascinating idea of field theory

485
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,280
and discuss this, what would I
say, middle ground between

486
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,600
teleology and mechanism?
Do you want to go into that?

487
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,640
And let's maybe head into a
slightly different direction.

488
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,920
Well, I think you're, you're
going to chat with Dan tomorrow,

489
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,600
right?
You should say that for Dan,

490
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,560
it's I've helped him develop the
theory a lot.

491
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,360
And I, I have my own kind of
ways in which I think it's

492
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,320
particularly important and he
has his own, but I, I want to, I

493
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:14,720
want to give him the
opportunity.

494
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,080
It really is he, he's the
originator of it from a paper he

495
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,960
wrote back in 2012.
So save that one for Dan.

496
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,240
What I'll do is I'll, I'll, I'll
save it.

497
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,800
But before we we move away from
that, what, what brought you

498
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,920
guys together and how did this
journey of working together in

499
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,640
such detail?
Because there's a lot of papers

500
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,400
of you guys working together and
what inspired this and what

501
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,280
motivates you guys to continue
to work together.

502
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,400
Well, Dan hired me as a post
doc.

503
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,840
So just kind of on a, a very
practical level, that's how we

504
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,560
started.
But, and again, you'll have to

505
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:56,400
actually ask him, but my
understanding from Dan of why he

506
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,600
hired me was because in my
philosophical background, I

507
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,440
thought a lot about Aristotle,
Plato, and so hence the origins

508
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,280
of teleology.
And Dan is by training a

509
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:15,400
paleobiologist.
So he, well, he would, if you

510
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,080
talk to him, he'll say he's not
a philosopher, even though he's

511
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,600
very accomplished in a lot of
philosophical journals.

512
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,920
I think he hasn't had a lot of
formal philosophical training.

513
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,280
So he wanted to bring somebody
in that actually knew a bit more

514
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,960
about the history of these
concepts and kind of how they've

515
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,480
been deployed throughout
philosophical and scientific

516
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,440
thought.
And I have a background in that,

517
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:41,880
but I also do enough and did
enough Phil bio that, you know,

518
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,880
we also kind of spoke the same
language.

519
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,960
So, so he asked if I had
anything to say about this

520
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,760
theory that he'd worked on that
might be historically informed.

521
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,480
And yeah, we ended up writing a
paper together and then we

522
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,200
worked well together.
And, and we see eye to eye on a

523
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,800
lot of stuff.
So we've continued to work on a

524
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,240
lot of projects together.
Well, tomorrow when I speak to

525
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,200
him.
Any question for Dan that you'd

526
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:14,040
like me to have?
I'd say a good question for Dan

527
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:22,520
or, or what I always press him
on is Dan's very interested in

528
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:29,360
psychology and the makeup of how
kind of affect proceeds

529
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,040
rationality, rationality or
logic.

530
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,880
So I always like to press him on
that a little bit.

531
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,760
We have this kind of a little
bit of an ongoing today because,

532
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,080
you know, again, I'm a
philosopher by training.

533
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,600
So while I'm very sympathetic to
the, the research that comes out

534
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,360
of the psychological world that,
you know, we are driven by

535
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,920
affect and that is the source of
motivation and human behavior

536
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,120
and otherwise, at the end of the
day, I also say, you know, well,

537
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:06,440
if you don't have any logical
rules governing anything, then

538
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,440
you really can't even start
doing any work at all, Dan.

539
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,760
So I say, you know, I can derive
certain axiomatic truths that

540
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,240
that maybe are not driven by
affect.

541
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,080
Something like it can't be both
raining and not raining at the

542
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,880
same time, right?
I, I can say that, can't I?

543
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,600
So that's a conversation we've
had more than more than once.

544
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,320
You, you mentioned a few things
there that I think we should

545
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,680
touch on in, in terms of full
bio and you think about the

546
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,800
philosophy of biology.
It's almost inescapable to then

547
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,360
slowly touch on the the
psychological aspect because

548
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,440
biological beings at some point,
it seems, result in this

549
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,960
psychological phenomena.
How much thought have you given

550
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,000
to the mind body problem?
Well-being a philosopher by

551
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,760
training, I've been steeped in
this since I think my first

552
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,600
undergrad class in, in Phil bio.
So yeah, I definitely, I have

553
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,600
positions on all that, though
it's, it's not strictly speaking

554
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,440
where much of my research ends
up.

555
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:09,440
But in short, yeah.
I mean, for me, having spent

556
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,920
enough time swimming in the the
world of biology, I'm very much

557
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,960
in the the non reductive
materialist camp on this stuff.

558
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:25,120
I very much think that if you
ultimately most explanations and

559
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,120
psychological, social, political
phenomena, ultimately you're

560
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,920
going to have to ground them
somewhere in the biological

561
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,840
world that it's it's all biology
when you really look at it,

562
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:42,760
right.
But so in, in other words, I'm,

563
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:47,120
I'm not very sympathetic to kind
of duelist positions.

564
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,520
And I think quite frequently I
actually tend to be on the same

565
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:58,000
page as people like Mike Levin
or folks like neuroscientists

566
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,640
like McFadden.
And I think that unfortunately

567
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,400
they just tend to have a lot of
confusion over to as to what

568
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,240
actually counts as dualism.
So I want to point out to them

569
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:10,400
that actually I think they're
just these non reductive

570
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,040
materialists running around
saying they're dualists and

571
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,120
they're just confused.
I just had a McFadden on the

572
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:18,720
show.
You're talking about John Joe,

573
00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:19,880
right?
Just to make sure.

574
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,000
Yeah, OK.
Just making sure.

575
00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:25,720
I had him do a lecture for me.
I think it was two or three days

576
00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:27,080
ago.
And.

577
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,280
And you?
Obviously look at that.

578
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,400
I had no idea I should go look
at.

579
00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:34,600
That and yeah, no, no, so I
haven't yet posted it, but he

580
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,800
he's doing 21 was an Occam's
razor and just trying to

581
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,440
understand and simplify this
universe as much as possible.

582
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,920
And and the other one is on the
semi field theory, which is very

583
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,000
fascinating when you when you
really break it down.

584
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:52,320
At its core, it's a he describes
it as a materialist but not

585
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,040
physicalist approach.
Sorry.

586
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,360
It's either the reverse.
Yeah, I.

587
00:35:57,720 --> 00:36:01,320
I think the reverse right or?
Physicalist but not materialist

588
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,200
approach, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

589
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,080
And, and so that's why I'm quick
to chime in, right, and say that

590
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,680
actually, you know, the the
going fashion and philosophy is

591
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,960
actually to get rid of this term
materialism and substitute it

592
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,480
with physicalism for this very
reason, right?

593
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,080
That it's very hard to to point
to the material that makes up an

594
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,720
electromagnetic field.
Yet, right.

595
00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:27,480
In our physical theories, it's
definitely something that we

596
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,440
think is real and probably
undergirds the majority of

597
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,320
reality.
So so let's call these physical

598
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,680
things maybe not material
though, right?

599
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,440
So yeah.
The mind body problem is

600
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,080
obviously the main topic of this
show because it's called mind

601
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,160
body solution.
So I can't not ask you what is

602
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:51,680
consciousness.
That's easy softballs.

603
00:36:56,720 --> 00:36:59,560
Well, so I, I guess so I'm
sympathetic.

604
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,320
I, I actually think that
somebody like Mcfadden's

605
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,320
approach to this problem is, is
the right approach.

606
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,640
I think too often what you see
in neuroscience and areas like

607
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:17,800
that is a focus on really
localized areas and which is

608
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,440
which is not to say that that
can't yield really important

609
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,800
things, but I like this
identification of kind of more

610
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,920
global phenomena that is
interactive.

611
00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:33,160
So I think a lot of the research
that somebody like Mcfadden's

612
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,120
doing and kind of pointing at
these big global phenomena that

613
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,520
are happening in the brain in
neurological processes is

614
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,920
absolutely the empirical
direction that we thought be

615
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,040
going to try to solve the the
problem of what consciousness

616
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,560
is.
But I mean, I like Psalm's

617
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:55,840
position on some of this stuff.
I I kind of like the the idea

618
00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:01,480
that this is AII feel bad with
the, the title of your, your

619
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,400
podcast here, but I think it's
almost a pseudo problem and that

620
00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:07,960
we're bringing along a lot of
this baggage, right, that

621
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,280
Descartes saddled us with and.
We just have.

622
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,080
There is no dichotomy.
Yeah, that's no dichotomy.

623
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:14,120
Yeah, that's fine.
Don't worry.

624
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,400
You're not insulting me.
I had to come up with some sort

625
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,080
of a name that.
So it's OK.

626
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:26,240
OK, OK, good.
But I get that a lot where in

627
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:29,080
the comment sections and, and
just in general where people do

628
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,760
do that to me, whether like,
first of all, this podcast is

629
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,600
premised or not on a false
problem.

630
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:35,960
And I'm like, there's nothing I
can do.

631
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,280
It's too late now.
It's already it's out there.

632
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,400
I have to continue and just
still explore this.

633
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,320
It's catchy, it's provocative
and that's that's what you need.

634
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,240
So that good work.
I, I figured I when I first

635
00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:51,640
started off, started the podcast
by saying this is just a, a, an

636
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:54,080
attempt to get closer to the
mind body solution.

637
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,280
So it's it's not really me
giving you the solution, it's

638
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,840
rather me venturing out into
this problem.

639
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,480
Very good.
At what age kind of did you feel

640
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,880
that, Look, philosophy of
biology is, is what I want to do

641
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,320
for the rest of my life and, and
this is something I'm very, very

642
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:19,560
passionate about.
Oh God, I've had a lot of twists

643
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:25,600
and turns so I started undergrad
late.

644
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,120
I was convinced I was going to
be a climbing bomb.

645
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:34,880
I happened to take a a
philosophy class 1st year in

646
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,000
college.
It was an ancient philosophy.

647
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:40,520
I was hooked.
I was obsessed.

648
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,960
Did the rest of my degree
basically taken as much

649
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,800
philosophy as I could, mostly
focused on ancient.

650
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,040
Then I walked away from it.
I ran a nonprofit domestication

651
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,080
project in Alaska for about 6
years.

652
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,520
That project I ran into a lot of
biology.

653
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:06,080
And doing it also ran into kind
of all sorts of interesting

654
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,920
conundrums, kind of on ethical
fronts that you might think

655
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,440
would happen with a
domestication project.

656
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,200
And I ended up going back to
pursue a PhD for a whole variety

657
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:21,200
of reasons in philosophy,
thought I was going to do in

658
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:26,240
ancient.
But as I started probing kind of

659
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:31,840
Aristotelian ways of thinking
about virtue ethics and stuff

660
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,080
like that got me thinking about
human nature, which got me

661
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,680
looking at some of the biology
behind that, which got me

662
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,640
thinking about what a species
is, which got.

663
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,200
And then, you know, the next
thing I know I surface and I'm

664
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:48,320
in biology departments, you
know, so the rest is history.

665
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,640
So one way of saying it is I'm
still just trying to figure out

666
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,600
whether or not virtue ethics is
a thing.

667
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,360
And I just haven't been able to
come back up for air.

668
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,400
And now I think mostly about
microbes.

669
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,120
When when it comes to ancient
philosophy, who are some of the

670
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,720
greats that you admire and who
do you think in terms of a

671
00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:12,560
philosophical history of life?
Have played the biggest roles in

672
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,760
the biology and the philosophy
of biology.

673
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,480
Sorry.
Historically.

674
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:21,600
Oh, oh, even in philosophy in
general.

675
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:23,080
So let's let's broaden that a
bit.

676
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:35,360
Oh, God.
Well, you know, I mean, I have

677
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,840
a, I've read a lot of Aristotle,
so I'm biased.

678
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,240
I think it's easy to forget that
more than half of all of

679
00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:46,640
Aristotle's work was in biology.
This is a guy that was

680
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:53,440
dissecting stuff and you know
what 300 ish BC on the coast of

681
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,440
Turkey, right?
He was looking he was trying to

682
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,720
explore what bioluminescence
was.

683
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:04,560
He was counting the teeth of of
stuff he was finding in tide

684
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:09,360
pools.
You know, this was a guy who who

685
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:14,280
went against his teacher Plato
and said, no, I can systematize,

686
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,560
you know, life on Earth.
You think you're you.

687
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,160
You think that's not possible.
There's no way of actually

688
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,600
coming up with categorize, any
way of categorizing all this.

689
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,200
You think maybe we can pull it
off in the stars.

690
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:26,800
But you know, the rest of it,
screw it.

691
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,600
He created a system of logic to
do all that.

692
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,520
So I think the very notion of a
species in a category comes out

693
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:43,680
of Aristotle.
You cannot it is hard to over

694
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,600
appreciate the importance of
that is had on the subsequent

695
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:52,680
history right there there in I
think somebody that's very much

696
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:56,280
under appreciated and gets
almost no footnote in all this

697
00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,960
is in the in the ancient world
at least, is Theophrastus, who

698
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:07,160
was Aristotle students.
Theophrastus actually was a the

699
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:11,600
first real botanist who tried to
systematize a lot of plant life,

700
00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:15,720
which people really are prone to
forgetting.

701
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:18,880
He was also a deep critic of
Aristotle's.

702
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,200
He pointed out how a lot of
Aristotle's teleological

703
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,320
theories just did not work out,
and how everything probably

704
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,040
couldn't be purposeful in the
way that Aristotle wanted it to

705
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,760
be.
So Thea Frastus is very much

706
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,760
underappreciated in all of this.
God.

707
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:42,400
As for the rest, I there are
just too many historical figures

708
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:48,960
to kind of to really point at as
to all the twists and turns. 1

709
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,400
area that you know, a figure who
who's obviously well known, but

710
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,200
again, who I think can't be over
appreciated.

711
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,120
And and Dan Mcshay and I are in
very much in agreement on this

712
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,800
is David Hume.
I think there are all sorts of

713
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:07,160
important ways Hume really
revolutionized ways of, of

714
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,920
thinking about things that do
have a deep impact, I would

715
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,560
argue in biology, even though
strictly speaking, he never

716
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:20,920
wrote on the topic.
So Hume, you know, Riddle of

717
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:22,880
induction, classic stuff like
that.

718
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,000
But he did, you know, all this
fascinating stuff on and, you

719
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,920
know, and all these disparate
areas like he gave the first

720
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:35,280
articulation of the the puzzle
of imaginative resistance, which

721
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,960
is, you know, in the current
philosophic literature, this

722
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,440
puzzle that nobody knows what to
do with.

723
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,720
So they're all all sorts of, you
know, just fascinating things

724
00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:46,680
going on in here.
I was speaking to Raymond Noble

725
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,720
and Dennis Noble recently and,
and they were going, they were

726
00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:56,600
going hard at Richard Dawkins's
Selfish Gene and he's always

727
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,560
previous title, which what he,
he was meant to call it the

728
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,080
immortal gene.
And I think that his publishers

729
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:05,400
changed it when when you think
about biologists and they work

730
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,880
in the field, who are some of
those names that come into your

731
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,320
mind when you're thinking about
people who in terms of genetics,

732
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:19,000
life and biology?
Oh gosh, Evelyn Fox Keeler, some

733
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,240
of her stuff is just absolutely
fantastic.

734
00:45:22,720 --> 00:45:29,280
I think the way that she's kind
of gotten rid of the nature

735
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:35,560
nurture problem, I mean that
that's really amazing stuff that

736
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,600
every biology student should be
reading and be informed about.

737
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,600
I mean, of course, they're these
looming figures like Dawkins

738
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,240
that have just been so
transformative in kind of

739
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,080
getting the pendulum to swing
back and forth and all these

740
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:55,520
ways that of course they're
critical to these fields.

741
00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:00,040
Currently, people like Mike
Levin, of course, are are great

742
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,600
and I really like a lot of the
work that they're doing.

743
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:09,600
But other figures that have been
kind of particular inspirations

744
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,120
with me, I point to somebody
like Lee Van Vaalen.

745
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:19,360
So Van Valen's work, I think is
absolutely critical in all sorts

746
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,880
of ways.
And he was just one of these

747
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,920
revolutionary thinkers.
Whether you're are thinking

748
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:33,520
about the Red Queen hypothesis
or the ecological species

749
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:37,880
concept or to me, some of the
most interesting work that's

750
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:42,760
coming out of Phil bio right now
from people like for Doolittle

751
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:48,960
pure biorat folks like that.
It really has its origins and

752
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,360
leave and valence thought.
So the idea that selective

753
00:46:52,360 --> 00:47:00,440
processes are applied to a much
wider range of phenomena than

754
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:01,920
what you would typically think
about.

755
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:10,400
S Lee van Valen said in a paper
and I think 1989 that, you know,

756
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:17,240
selective processes happen to
granite and fieldspar that you

757
00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:21,520
can apply selection to those.
And so you'd say, but wait, Dick

758
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,840
Lewington's recipe for how, you
know, natural, how natural

759
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,760
selection works, right?
It's missing the crucial

760
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,160
ingredient of reproduction.
Lee Van Valen goes, yeah, but

761
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,840
you'd have persistent selection
taking place at all these

762
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,240
levels.
And that cracking that door open

763
00:47:36,240 --> 00:47:41,320
has now just ushered in this
whole new realm to kind of the

764
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,960
scope of applicability of where
we can find selective processes

765
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,040
happening.
So you can look at recent work

766
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:53,400
by people like Mike Wong and Bob
Hazen and how they're thinking

767
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:58,120
about this, you know, the
origins of star formation and

768
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,920
and stuff like that.
So it it's really cool stuff,

769
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,240
really cutting edge and and
really you trace it back and and

770
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,400
it's leave an avail on that
first started thinking these

771
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:11,960
ways.
When you're touching on the on

772
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,160
the fact that this field is
dynamically evolving over time.

773
00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:18,800
And as we're coming into this
new phase of artificial

774
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,520
intelligence becoming so
prominent as a a thought

775
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,760
process, and now it's just
absorbed everybody's lives in

776
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,120
this non binary approach of life
and how you view it.

777
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,280
How does how does one then apply
this to artificial intelligence

778
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:37,000
and silicone robots at to some
point?

779
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,720
Would you consider these to be a
form of life?

780
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:47,920
Well, again, here's where I, I
push back a bit and say, you

781
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:53,280
know, I, I, so if I dispense
with the the life concept for a

782
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:57,800
moment and I asked, look, are
these so, and again, I say here

783
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,680
being the non reductive
materialist, really non

784
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,760
reductive physicalist that I am,
I say, OK, you know, most of the

785
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,280
stuff that we found has to be
carbon based so far, you know,

786
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,760
whatever it's going to come in
lots of different material

787
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:12,960
forms.
So let's stop thinking about

788
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,080
that as being some sort of
criterion through which to

789
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,000
measure these sorts of things.
And so I asked myself, hey, can

790
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,720
a silicone based thing be
subject to selective processes?

791
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,000
Sure.
Does it reproduce?

792
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,560
Not by our typical standards of
what that counts as

793
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:33,040
reproduction, maybe in certain
other ways, but it can sure

794
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:35,160
undergo something like
persistent selection.

795
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,640
So by that criteria, absolutely
why not?

796
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,560
OK, does it do other kind of
critical things?

797
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:48,200
Does it develop again in in kind
of typical biological fashion

798
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,520
and the way that we see
organisms doing this?

799
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:52,920
Yeah, You know, I don't know,
maybe not.

800
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,040
But it sure does seem to take on
new properties and new dynamics

801
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,400
that I can treat like traits and
talk about their functionality

802
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,240
and the ways that we apply those
kind of frameworks to biological

803
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:06,560
stuff.
So it seems like the tool kit

804
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,720
that I have is a biologist to
think about these systems.

805
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:15,200
I see no reason why that can't
be applied to say, silicone

806
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:20,720
based stuff.
So yeah, for me that's kind of

807
00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:25,000
more the question to ask.
Biologists have these amazing

808
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,680
tools at their disposal.
How many of them are going to be

809
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,440
applicable to kind of the
advances that are being made in

810
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,440
these other areas?
To me, a lot.

811
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,120
Let's start applying those tools
and see what happens.

812
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,880
What can we discover empirically
when we do that and stop getting

813
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:40,720
all caught up in this?
Like is it life?

814
00:50:40,720 --> 00:50:44,360
Is it not life question?
You know, I don't, I don't.

815
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,240
It's kind of a nonsensical
question once you push it

816
00:50:47,240 --> 00:50:50,720
forward.
All that having been said, I

817
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:53,560
think one of the, and again, if
you talk to Dan tomorrow, I

818
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,000
think one of the probably the
most interesting things to ask

819
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,160
of course gets it issues like
the Chinese Room argument and

820
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,360
stuff like that, right?
Where you say, OK, at what point

821
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,080
do we want to talk about these
things as having something like

822
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:09,320
affect or wants, as being a
motivating driver behind them.

823
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,800
And that, that I think is an
interesting question.

824
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:15,360
I don't know what to say about
that.

825
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,360
I wish I did.
You need to talk to somebody

826
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,920
much smarter than me.
When, when, when you think about

827
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,680
from a full bio perspective and
you look at history and you

828
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,520
notice, OK, at some point we'll
look at the brain as pumps

829
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,280
because we're living in this, in
this age where we just figure

830
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:35,840
out mechanics and then we slowly
go into computational aspects of

831
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,000
history and we realise, OK, the
brain's a computational system.

832
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,440
And now we're, we're everything
sort of changes over time.

833
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:46,680
And what is, what have been the
trends in biology from your

834
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,640
perspective on life when you
take into account this

835
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,520
historical fluctuation?
Does that question make any

836
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:58,760
sense?
So are you asking, like, how

837
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:03,360
much do the metaphors that we
use at a given historical point

838
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:13,120
and form how we think about?
OK, yeah, Often times metaphors

839
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:17,360
are what we use to scaffold to
our next kind of paradigm of

840
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,120
thinking about things.
And then eventually we outgrow

841
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,720
that shell and we need to devise
new metaphors.

842
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:27,560
And my guess and my sense is
that, you know, we're outgrowing

843
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,960
the machine metaphor.
We're leaving that behind for a

844
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:36,440
whole variety of reasons, and
we're taking on this new

845
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,120
metaphor.
And yeah, what I would always

846
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:42,480
say, you know, we ought be
cautious about is keeping in the

847
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,320
back of our minds these are
metaphors, right?

848
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,800
That really it's it's a way of
modeling a system, and it has

849
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,320
all sorts of explanatory
advantages, but it comes with a

850
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,960
whole bunch of disadvantages,
too.

851
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:57,680
You know, when we created the
first map of the world, it was

852
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:01,160
great.
It allowed, you know, Magellan

853
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,120
figured out how to get from one
point to the other.

854
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,920
You could do all sorts of stuff.
It's an awesome model.

855
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:08,800
It's an awesome tool.
It helped us circumnavigate the

856
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,160
globe.
It also distorts things, right?

857
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,680
It gives you the impression that
there's an eastern most point

858
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,480
and a westernmost point, which
of course the globe doesn't

859
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:18,640
have, but a map would lead you
to believe it has.

860
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,960
And we talk about the
westernmost point in the world

861
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,480
and it's you go, but there isn't
one.

862
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:29,160
That makes no sense, right?
So I think very much in a

863
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:32,680
similar way when we apply these
metaphors, whether it's

864
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:38,000
algorithmic or computational or
what have you to life, it's a

865
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:39,520
way of modeling or thinking
about.

866
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:43,560
It has all sorts of explanatory
advantage, advantages which we

867
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:47,760
should reap.
But it's also key to be aware of

868
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,120
the explanatory deficits that it
introduces too.

869
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,160
And I'm sure that there's a
whole host of explanatory

870
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,280
deficits being introduced here
too, where the analogy falls

871
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,440
apart.
What do you think is the most

872
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:05,480
probing question right now in
the philosophy of biology?

873
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:14,760
I mean, actually, I think, and
again, I, I, I mean, the

874
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:18,680
individuality question to me is
probably one of the more

875
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:24,000
interesting ones alongside the,
the directedness question.

876
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,840
The individuality question I
think is really interesting.

877
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:32,080
And I'll be the first to say
that I don't think I've done

878
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:36,040
anything particularly amazing or
original here other than point

879
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:41,320
out things that, you know, are,
are becoming obvious and in new

880
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,520
ways.
But there's a lot of really

881
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:45,320
interesting work that's going on
here.

882
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:50,040
And I think it's deeply
important for a variety of

883
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:55,000
reasons, because how we
taxonomize the biological world

884
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,680
ultimately depends on how we
think about things this way.

885
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:05,320
And it's going to have an impact
in so many absolutely critical

886
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:12,200
areas, as I say, everything from
our ethical frameworks to how we

887
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,960
do science, right?
If they're just individuals out

888
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,560
there that have been off our
radar that we're not even

889
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:22,440
studying empirically, my God,
what a mistake that is, right.

890
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:27,040
And then similarly, hey, ethical
frameworks are all about, you

891
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,160
know, what falls within the
scope of our moral

892
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:33,240
consideration.
And you know, what if if you

893
00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:36,760
divide those lines differently,
it's going to have to end up

894
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,640
rejiggering how we think about
our how we assign moral weights

895
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:45,720
across the world.
So yeah, I think the biological

896
00:55:45,720 --> 00:55:48,360
individuality question is a is a
really important one.

897
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:53,120
At some point in the end of your
paper, towards the end, you you

898
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,080
end up a slight.
You end up on a slightly

899
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,680
provocative note.
You the paper ends on a whether

900
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:01,760
you think about an Organism as
an object in space or in time

901
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,120
might change where you see its
boundaries.

902
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:09,120
How do you think this shift in
perspective could reshape how we

903
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,640
understand or define life and
its processes?

904
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:19,880
I suppose what I'm hinting at
there is that I think you can

905
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:26,440
probably think about at least
the stuff that's typically kind

906
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:31,800
of considered under the life
umbrella in two ways, right?

907
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:39,240
I can think about entities as
lineages that exist throughout

908
00:56:39,240 --> 00:56:42,960
time.
And if it's one of those type of

909
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:48,160
entity entities, then it's
probably been responding much

910
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:52,320
more to the persistence
conditions or the fitness

911
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:56,680
conditions of persistence rather
than those of reproduction.

912
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,680
So I like to kind of frame this
in this, and I know we're

913
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:05,840
running out of time here, but
Aristotle kind of comes up right

914
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:08,520
with this, this little mystery,
right?

915
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:11,880
He says, look, everything's
trying to continue itself in

916
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,040
some form or other.
You can do that in two ways.

917
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,400
You can try to be Alexander the
Great or something like that,

918
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:20,000
right?
And you can try to be such an

919
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,400
individual that just nobody
could possibly replicate you.

920
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:25,120
You, there's only one you ever
you're so individuated.

921
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:28,400
Or you can be a blade of grass
and you can just replicate as

922
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:33,280
many times as you want and your
form is maintained itself that

923
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:35,600
way.
And I see that as really being

924
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:37,880
the two ways of pulling apart
fitness, right?

925
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:39,560
You can do the reproductive
thing, you can do the

926
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:42,840
persistence thing.
And you really, you see

927
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:47,120
different types of entities,
biological entities emerge

928
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:48,920
depending on which one of those
that you focus on.

929
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,960
So if you focus on the one, you
end up focusing in on historical

930
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:54,840
lineages.
If you focus in on the other,

931
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:56,720
you end up finding these spatial
boundaries.

932
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,080
Hopefully that makes sense.
I appreciate.

933
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,360
That I know we're running out of
time, but I think the one thing

934
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:06,240
that's pretty clear from this
paper and that's evident is, is

935
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:10,960
this is trying to move away from
this human centric obsession of

936
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:14,880
our perspective of what life is
and, and tying it too closely to

937
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,000
what we are.
And that, and that's often what

938
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,040
we've always done.
The Ian vital, whether we think

939
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,440
consciousness is just unique to
us, life is unique to us.

940
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,120
It, it seems to be a theme
throughout the history and just

941
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:27,640
we just cannot eradicate this.
It's, it's, it's a strange

942
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:30,360
thing.
We are not a part of from this

943
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:32,400
universe.
We are a part of this universe.

944
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:36,760
And, and I think that message is
painted clearly in your, in your

945
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,320
papers and in your work.
Hey, thank you.

946
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:42,240
I really appreciate that.
That is definitely one thing I

947
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:45,280
try to push towards and and I
think that the study of biology

948
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:49,240
is most helpful in getting us to
step slightly outside our very

949
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:51,600
human centric perspective.
So yeah.

950
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:54,920
God, I had one question for you
I forgot to ask you.

951
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:59,120
But today at while at work, I
was trying to teach a patient

952
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:01,880
what a virus was.
And it got me really thinking

953
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:03,400
about it.
You know, I was, I couldn't

954
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:06,280
really get into the dips of it.
What do you think about a virus?

955
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:07,800
Is it a life?
Is it life?

956
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:11,880
This is the complete sidetrack
before we.

957
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:14,120
Close.
Sorry.

958
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:16,480
Well, it's funny that you ask
because, yeah, this is this is

959
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:20,440
the exact kind of realm of
dispute going back to where we

960
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:24,160
started between Griesemer and
Godfrey Smith, where on their

961
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:27,280
different definitions of how
replication or reproduction

962
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:31,160
takes place.
Somebody like Griesemer is going

963
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,680
to say it's really reproductive
process because there's this

964
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:37,080
sort of scaffolding.
But you know, he has this kind

965
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:39,880
of way of reworking it.
So, you know, when a virus takes

966
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,840
parts of a cell and takes them
apart to scaffold into another

967
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:47,200
copy of itself, there's no
material overlap there.

968
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:50,640
But in taking apart the cell, it
takes ownership of that

969
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:51,920
material.
So then there's this.

970
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:57,440
So he kind of, he does a little
ad hoc tuning to make it work.

971
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,640
Whereas Dennett and PGS are
saying there is just

972
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:05,080
information, it's informational
transfer that's sufficient for

973
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:10,600
it to be a replication process.
So there's an interesting

974
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:14,080
question in there.
My view is it's stuff that's

975
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:18,320
subject to selective processes.
Let's apply biological tools to

976
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:19,480
it.
Why not, right?

977
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:25,200
Probably.
Probably not a proofing answer,

978
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:28,640
but it's something.
The the kind of this has been

979
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:29,640
amazing.
Thank you so much.

980
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:33,360
But before we can, before we end
off, what about the split body

981
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:37,320
problem, these concepts of life
and in general, do you think we

982
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:39,960
haven't touched or that you'd
like to make clear to round us

983
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:44,800
off, not to clarify in anyways?
No, I I really appreciate your

984
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:48,400
close read of it.
I think you've done a superb job

985
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:50,400
of kind of giving a nice general
overview.

986
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:55,240
I think the only thing that I
had add is that I one other

987
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:58,560
aspect of the article that I I
tried to impress into it.

988
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,800
It's just how much we continue
to be steeped in the paradigms

989
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,280
that were really introduced by
Aristotle and Plato, right?

990
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:07,560
That we we tend to think, oh,
we've moved so far beyond all.

991
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:10,840
And I go, yeah, we're still kind
of essentialist at heart, right?

992
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:14,000
We still have that Aristotelian
paradigm that we just don't want

993
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,360
to let go of.
So that's, you know, that I'd

994
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,200
say that's the only other piece
that that was maybe buried in

995
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:21,680
there.
Now it's a.

996
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:24,480
It's a wonderful read and I
think I'll put the links to the

997
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:27,960
the academic paper and the EON
article as well.

998
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:30,160
It's wonderful.
I'm looking forward to Dan's

999
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:32,920
conversation tomorrow, and thank
you so much for joining me.

1000
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:35,280
Absolutely.
Thanks for the invite, I really

1001
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:37,040
appreciate it and it's been fun.