Donald Hoffman: What is an "Observer"? New Discovery in Search of "One" Consciousness Beyond Reality

1
00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:14,520
How are you doing, man?
It's been such a it's been a

2
00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:16,600
long time.
It's, it's been a while, yeah.

3
00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:18,560
Yeah, it's been a while.
Yeah.

4
00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:20,840
I'm, I'm, I'm continuing to
improve.

5
00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:26,160
It's, you know this I, the long
COVID, really did a number on

6
00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:27,280
me.
So I'm still.

7
00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,120
It's still recovering.
It's been years but I'm still

8
00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:32,920
recovering.
But a couple of doctors

9
00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:39,000
contacted me from Australia and
said that they they thought from

10
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:40,680
my symptoms.
They heard me on a podcast and

11
00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,600
they said they thought from my
symptoms that the heart wasn't

12
00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:45,600
the primary thing that had been
attacked.

13
00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:50,960
But it was my gut that the the
viruses of bacteriophage and

14
00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,120
that it destroyed the.
The bacteria that produce GABA

15
00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,600
and serotonin and other calming
kinds of things and and promoted

16
00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,160
bacteria that produce amines
that sort of OverDrive the heart

17
00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:09,200
and lead to the failure that I
had and so that's so they put me

18
00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,800
on this really strict diet
vegetables and and no basically

19
00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,200
almost no.
It's almost like a total no carb

20
00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:16,360
kind of diet.
See.

21
00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,040
Has that been, has that have you
seen an impact?

22
00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,680
Yeah it's it's completely
changed my gut and I I actually

23
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,920
it's making a huge difference so
so this is I mean the virus

24
00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,440
attacks you wherever I guess
you're weak and it it got me in

25
00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:33,640
the gut in the heart.
Excuse me man.

26
00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:34,960
I'm I'm glad you're doing
better, though.

27
00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,800
It's it's always great to to
know someone's doing better.

28
00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,440
And I mean, we need you out
there to continue doing such

29
00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,360
great work.
Well, well, thank you.

30
00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,640
And then we need you to continue
to do this great podcast and and

31
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:46,840
of course the medical work that
you do.

32
00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,120
Thanks so much, Don.
I mean, we've covered so much.

33
00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,000
We've chatted twice already and
both both times we went through

34
00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,280
various different aspects of all
your work.

35
00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,720
In the first podcast we spoke
about user interface theory of

36
00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:02,920
perception.
We spoke about conscious

37
00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,600
realism.
We touched unconscious agents.

38
00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,520
But in the second one we went
very in depth conscious agents

39
00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,000
in the subatomic world.
We went into that paper, we

40
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:12,560
dissected people loved it by the
way.

41
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:15,400
Yeah.
And it's been it's it's been

42
00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,760
quite a hit for this podcast.
I I thought, let me curate a

43
00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,440
bunch of questions from the
audience so far from the 1st,

44
00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:26,320
2:00 and we'll try each of them.
But before we do that, I think

45
00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:30,440
since conscious agents of the
subatomic world, what's happened

46
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,720
since because I'm assuming you
guys are having a lot of fun and

47
00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,480
it's it's always exciting to
when someone jumps and gets

48
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,280
outside the box to know what's
what's really outside the box.

49
00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,120
That that's right.
So we have made a couple, for

50
00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:51,000
me, very fun discoveries.
So one has to do with the notion

51
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,520
of observation.
What does it mean to observe

52
00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:56,560
what?
What what will it mean in our

53
00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:01,400
theory to for one system to
observe another in in, you know,

54
00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,440
classical physics, the observer?
Is not much mentioned and if

55
00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,920
they're mentioned at all,
they're assumed to be objective

56
00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:11,280
and don't really interfere at
all with whatever it is that

57
00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,160
they're so they they they don't
disturb whatever they're

58
00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,800
observing.
In quantum mechanics, there

59
00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,440
isn't a theory of the observer,
but but it's it's known that you

60
00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,640
know somehow the measurement
process is a destructive

61
00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:25,600
process.
I mean things are different when

62
00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,440
you measure than you know when
you don't.

63
00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,640
And and so.
There there's this feeling that

64
00:03:30,640 --> 00:03:33,280
you know the observer has to
play a role but it's not

65
00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,880
formalized right the their
measurement is formalized.

66
00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:42,040
You know it's some kind of there
is a formalization there in

67
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,840
terms of positive operator value
measures and so POVMS and so

68
00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,480
forth.
But but you know even someone

69
00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,000
like Chris Fuchs who's saying
you know that the that quantum

70
00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,000
mechanics is really just a
description for the agent how it

71
00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,680
should up update their beliefs
in in.

72
00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:01,040
In light of experimental data
and so forth.

73
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,280
But when you ask him so, So what
is your theory of the agent?

74
00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:05,960
He says, I I don't owe you a
theory of the agent.

75
00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:07,920
I'm just telling you that
quantum mechanics is the manual

76
00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:09,720
that the agent should use.
And I don't know what an agent

77
00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,840
is and I respect, I mean you
can't do everything and he's

78
00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,360
doing quantum mechanics and he's
not doing the agent, he's not

79
00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,160
doing the observer.
But he does say that the agent's

80
00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,399
important.
So, so then in our theory then

81
00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:24,120
you know the question comes
front and centre because we're

82
00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,000
talking about conscious agents
all the way down.

83
00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:28,920
So we we we can't avoid.
So when we talk about a

84
00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,920
measurement, we have to actually
have a theory of what does it

85
00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:39,200
mean for one system of conscious
agents to make a measurement on

86
00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,120
another system of conscious
agents, right?

87
00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:42,080
What?
What does that mean?

88
00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:48,960
And we use so.
I I have to be a little

89
00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,240
technical to to explain the
idea.

90
00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,400
I'll I'll try to be as
untechnical as possible but we

91
00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,840
use Markovian kernels.
So a Markovian kernel basically

92
00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:04,720
says suppose you have a system
that that can see three colors,

93
00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:06,880
red, green and blue and that's
that's what it experiences.

94
00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:10,640
There's a kernel that we call
the quality of kernel that

95
00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,560
describes.
The sequence of color

96
00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,280
experiences that this observer
might have.

97
00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,600
So maybe if I see red now, the
probability is that the next

98
00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,120
time I see a color it'll be
green, but maybe it's a maybe

99
00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,320
it's half and it's also a third
that I'll see blue.

100
00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,080
But it's also, you know,
whatever is leftover, probably

101
00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,680
that I'll see red.
So I can say for for each color

102
00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,960
I'm now experiencing, what is
the probability of the next

103
00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,480
color I might experience.
And you can so when you write

104
00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,680
down a matrix a a table of all
those probabilities.

105
00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,840
In mathematics we call that a a
Markov kernel and it it's it's

106
00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:48,960
actually a a linear operator and
and you can actually study the

107
00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,520
properties of that linear
operator it it can rotate

108
00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,880
vectors it can exchange you
expand and contract vectors it

109
00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,880
can do all sorts of things so so
that's the one of the models

110
00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:03,040
we're using to represent
observers and the conscious

111
00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,000
experiences that they have what
we discovered was.

112
00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,280
And this is a new contribution
to to Markov chain theory

113
00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:15,400
apparently to the mathematics of
it is that.

114
00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,480
Well, first, first, what I'm
about to say is not a new

115
00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,920
contribution, it's a standard
notion, but we're going to use

116
00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:23,640
it for the for the new
contribution.

117
00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,360
If you take one Markov chain
like it has three colors and and

118
00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:29,560
you've got the Markov chain on
it.

119
00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:31,720
But then you say, what if, what
if I, you know, don't look at

120
00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,920
the red, I don't care when the
red, I'm only going to look at

121
00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,920
the green and blue and I'm going
to look at those two colors.

122
00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,840
What Markov chain gets induced
on those two colors from the

123
00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:43,600
bigger Markov chain and red,
green and blue.

124
00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,080
Right?
He there's some probability of

125
00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,320
going from red, green, blue.
But what happens if I only can

126
00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,320
see the green and the blue?
I'll get some chance.

127
00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,320
You know, if I'm if I see green
now, that I'll see blue next for

128
00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:53,760
see green now, I'll see green
next.

129
00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,800
So, so I can actually you can.
Intuitively you can see, well

130
00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,480
yeah, you should be able to
induce a Markov chain on the

131
00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,080
smaller number of of states
right from the, but it would

132
00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,480
somehow respect the bigger.
A bigger Markov chain, right?

133
00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,560
So that's the idea of a trace.
It's called a trace chain.

134
00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,960
Well, what we proved this is
work with Chaytam Prakash.

135
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,000
So he and I worked on this
together and what we found is

136
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:24,200
that the relationship of being a
trace chain to another Markov

137
00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:29,280
chain is a partial order.
That that means that it we found

138
00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,960
a.
This is an entire logic on the

139
00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,520
space of all Markov chains.
All Markov kernels.

140
00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:43,880
So this is a brand new logic.
11-IN-1 chain entails another if

141
00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,080
it's a trace chain of the other.
That's.

142
00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,560
That's the so I can the actual
definition is simple.

143
00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:55,200
Once I've I can actually say the
So one Markov chain P is less

144
00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,400
than or equal to Markov chain Q
if and only if P is a trace

145
00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,720
chain of Q and you can prove
that that is actually a a

146
00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,240
partial order.
And it's a logic, so it's

147
00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,680
actually a logic on the space of
all Markov chains.

148
00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,840
It's not boolean, it's it's more
general than boolean, It's more

149
00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:18,200
general than quantum logics
ortho complemented lattices.

150
00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,800
This this is more, it's more
general than that.

151
00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,240
It's locally boolean.
So every particular Markov

152
00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,400
kernel, if you look at all the
ones that are less than it, all

153
00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,680
the ones that that that are less
than it.

154
00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,520
They form a boolean logic.
So this is a locally boolean

155
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:40,799
logic of observation and and
then we proved that this if if

156
00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:44,640
you take so.
So by the way then this is our

157
00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:52,160
notion of observation if one
observer's kernel or Markov

158
00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,600
chain.
Is less than or equal to another

159
00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,640
than it observes the bigger
chain.

160
00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,400
So that's so that's how you
that's what so notice our

161
00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,240
notion, our notion of
observation is not this

162
00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,320
objective.
You're you're outside the

163
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,800
system.
No, no, you're you're immersed

164
00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:07,640
in it.
You are part of the system.

165
00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:10,200
You're an integral part of the
system that you're observing.

166
00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,360
So.
So at the top level that's the

167
00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:16,040
the take home from this our
theory of observation is the

168
00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,520
observer is no scientist.
That's, you know.

169
00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,360
Separate from everything and not
involved in anything and

170
00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,680
completely separate and can't
and and can be ignored.

171
00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:28,800
No, no no no.
You are intimately part of the

172
00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,840
system and you must be
understood to to get a real

173
00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,840
theory of observation in science
you have to understand what an

174
00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,880
agent is and how it's embedded
in the systems that it's

175
00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,160
observing and this is this gives
a mathematical logic for for

176
00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,760
doing that So it's really we're
we're pretty excited but but

177
00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:52,920
then each Markov chain.
If, if, if, if you have Markov

178
00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,360
chains that are like a recurrent
communicating class, so they're

179
00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,120
they're in some sense they're
they're nice, they're nice

180
00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,080
Markov chains.
I'll just use the word nice as a

181
00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,400
non-technical term, but I gave
you the technical for those who

182
00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,240
want the technical recurrent
communicating 1 recurrent

183
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,280
communicating class.
They have then a probability

184
00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,520
measure that tells you long
term.

185
00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,200
What are the probabilities of
the different states that you'll

186
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:15,600
see?
Like what was the probability of

187
00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,040
seeing red?
Maybe long term you see red 1/3

188
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,200
of the time, blue 2/3 of the
time and green you don't see

189
00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,080
hardly at all.
Maybe maybe that's the long

190
00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,760
term.
That's called the stationary

191
00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,120
measure of of the of the Markov
chain.

192
00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:33,320
And so it turns out that when
you have a big measure and then

193
00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:38,120
a trace, sorry, a big chain and
A and a trace chain, that the

194
00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,280
stationary measure of the trace
chain.

195
00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:45,160
Is exactly the restriction of
those of the of the stationary

196
00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,760
measure of the bigger chain to
the that subset of states.

197
00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:49,680
In other words, it's all
compatible.

198
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,400
So you have a big measure for
the stationary measure of the of

199
00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,680
the big guy and maybe three of
the states are what you trace

200
00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:57,440
on.
Well, if you look at the the big

201
00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,880
guy's probability measure on
those three states, that's

202
00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:03,000
exactly what you get on the
little guy just renormalize.

203
00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,920
So that's probability measure
you have to renormalize it.

204
00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,480
So it's probability.
So all of these stationary

205
00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,960
measures are.
They follow through this logic

206
00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,080
and so and it turns out this
then means that there's this

207
00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:20,960
this logic that we discovered on
probability measures that that I

208
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:26,760
published 30 years ago and it's
it's it's I published it with

209
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,880
Bruce Bennett who's a he's now
dead but a brilliant

210
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:34,320
mathematician and Parvesh Murthy
who is a a graduate student of

211
00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,600
mathematics so it's two
mathematicians and and a flunky

212
00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:41,360
me working on this thing and.
And what we published it in the

213
00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,680
Journal of Math, Psych.
And what we what we proved is

214
00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:47,200
that there was a logic on
probability measures where one

215
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:51,640
probability measure implies
another or entails another

216
00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,360
probability measure if and only
if it's a normalized

217
00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:56,920
restriction.
So I I get the bigger

218
00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,440
probability measure, I take a
subset of its states,

219
00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,080
renormalize the probability on
that, and that's the probability

220
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,600
of this guy down here.
It turns out that's so it's a

221
00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,640
simple idea.
You know I'm just a normalized

222
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:07,720
restriction of the bigger
measure.

223
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,520
But then I that's the
implication relation and that

224
00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,960
gives you a non boolean logic
that that's it's there's no

225
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,160
global complement just like in
the by the way this trace logic,

226
00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,320
there's no global complement.
OK, locally there is because you

227
00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,680
have a local boolean logic but
globally not.

228
00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,320
So it turns out Now, this last
thing I'm about to say, we

229
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,200
haven't proven yet, but we're
going to try to do that.

230
00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,240
There's a homomorphism of the
logics that the trace logic is

231
00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,040
essentially homomorphic to the
what we call the Lebesgue logic

232
00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,480
of probability measures.
So this gives us the trace logic

233
00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:48,200
gives us a formal theory of
observation, and the Lebesgue

234
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,040
logic of probability measures
gives us a formal theory of

235
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,560
probabilistic belief.
And so putting them together

236
00:12:57,560 --> 00:13:00,520
with this homomorphism shows how
observations.

237
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,240
Are formally related to
probabilistic beliefs.

238
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:08,280
So this is for us a major
breakthrough in in terms of the

239
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:13,800
formalism and and we had to go
after this because you know, you

240
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,640
mentioned our our paper on the
subatomic world.

241
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,480
You know, so conscious agents in
the subatomic world, well, we

242
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:25,800
have to say what we mean when
we're talking about modeling

243
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,000
observations of quarks and
gluons inside the proton.

244
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:30,480
What?
What do we mean?

245
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,040
Well, so now we have this, we,
we mean that we're going to be

246
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:38,200
positing some bigger Markov
chain and our observations will

247
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,160
be some trace chains of of that
bigger chain.

248
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:48,120
And the trace chain will have
two, two ways that it's doing

249
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,880
this observation.
One is the number of states that

250
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,200
it's tracing on, right.
So that's going to be 1

251
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,880
parameter the more states you
trace on.

252
00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,000
In some sense, the better
spatial resolution you've got,

253
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,440
right.
Right.

254
00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:08,320
So the so if if I have, you know
if my big chain has 1000 states

255
00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:12,160
that would be a very big chain
at least for my computer.

256
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,520
And suppose I I have a trace
chain that's only 10 states

257
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,240
versus another one that's 100
states versus another one that's

258
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,920
500 sub states of the big chain,
right.

259
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,360
The one that 500 sub states is
in some sense a higher

260
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,800
resolution observation.
Than the one that only has you

261
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,520
know 50 states.
The 50 state one is is observing

262
00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,720
the big one.
The big thousand state one it

263
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,800
is, it is observing it, but not
nearly with the resolution of

264
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,080
the, you know, 500 statement.
Almost like quantifying that

265
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,200
sort of objective.
It's.

266
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,240
It gives you a complete
quantification and and for the

267
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,200
physicist this is.
This would be our quantification

268
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,880
of what they call Q ^2, which is
their technical thing for.

269
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,320
Spatial spatial resolution, it's
tied to the amount of energy

270
00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,200
that they use when higher energy
leads to better spatial

271
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,680
resolution.
So what we're basically now

272
00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,200
doing is identifying higher
energies with greater spatial

273
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,680
resolution in our trace chains,
which is that that that itself

274
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,440
is a non trivial statement.
There's there's a lot, there's a

275
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,840
lot that's said there obviously
because it's very complex and a

276
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,120
lot of people find it very
difficult.

277
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,680
I've noticed a lot of people
find your theory so fascinating

278
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,600
and and want to jump on board so
badly, but the math and the

279
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,520
physics become so complicated
that they just can't do it.

280
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,680
And the only way I can is when
is by first obviously chatting

281
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,080
to you, watching reading your
content, but then chatting to

282
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:37,840
friends or physicists.
They're trying to get their

283
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,640
opinion on on all of this and
trying from their perspective to

284
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:41,920
understand what you're talking
about.

285
00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,400
And the more I do this, the
easier it gets it gets to sort

286
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,440
of understand it.
But I still feel left in the

287
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:52,600
dark knowing that you have
access to more information based

288
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,920
on the base of knowledge you
have within physics and

289
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,400
mathematics.
Have you felt that it's a a bit

290
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,600
of a struggle to try and get
this out there because of the

291
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,520
complexity of this topic you
feel people find that you're

292
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,200
hiding behind these sort of
fancy words?

293
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,400
Because I've I've noticed a lot
of people comment about that,

294
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,320
saying that OK, once you
mentioned decorated permutations

295
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,400
or permutations, or once you
mention mark of blankets, you're

296
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,720
just trying to sound smart.
But, but that's not the case,

297
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,960
because when I chat to my
physicist friends, they seem to

298
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,760
know what you're talking about a
lot better than the layman.

299
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,200
If if someone thinks that, I
mean we have a paper called

300
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,240
Fusions of consciousness.
So you can just go look at the

301
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,760
paper Fusions of Consciousness
and and we don't just mention

302
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:38,520
the word decorated permutation,
we actually.

303
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,840
We actually create an we we
actually create a new

304
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,480
mathematics of decorated
permutations for Markov chains.

305
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,960
So so it's it's not just hand
waves where where you.

306
00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,640
I only talk about it because
we're using it and we're using

307
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,480
it to to to good purpose.
I'll put a link to visions of

308
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:53,960
consciousness.
So now I think that that one

309
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,480
came out in January.
If I'm, If I'm.

310
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:56,240
Not.
Yeah, in January.

311
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:57,960
That's right.
That's right.

312
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,680
So I'll just mention that.
So I I agree with what you're

313
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:07,319
saying that it's it's difficult
and I I try to talk about this

314
00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:09,440
stuff.
In a way that's generally

315
00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,480
accessible.
But the but the problem is of

316
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,599
course if you do that then
people say well it's not it's

317
00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:18,280
not serious and if you and if
you do it seriously then I can't

318
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:19,520
understand it.
He's just throwing out these

319
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,640
technical words so you're it's a
catch 22.

320
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,560
But my my attitude is what you
know, I I do get graduate

321
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,160
potential graduate students.
And this is one reason why I do

322
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,280
these podcasts and young people.
I'm I'm interested in getting

323
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,960
young people who are young
enough that they can start to

324
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,160
learn the math and and and make
contributions.

325
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,280
Get them excited and get them,
you know, studying this stuff.

326
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,160
I spent an hour and a half with
one student potential student

327
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,840
yesterday talking about and gave
her a bunch of math to read and

328
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,920
so, so you know that.
So that's what I'm doing it for

329
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,840
is to actually get graduate
students working on their pH DS

330
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:55,720
in in this field.
That's that's my goal.

331
00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,760
I've noticed someone else who
has this problem because when

332
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:01,160
when I chatted it's called
Friston.

333
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,880
We when I chatted to call and
and we spoke about his approach

334
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,240
to the free energy principle, he
has exactly the same issue he's

335
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,440
often accused of of hiding
behind fancy talk.

336
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,760
They sort of say so.
So you you really are stuck

337
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,200
between a rock and a hard place.
You can't.

338
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:20,200
How do you dumb down something
that is so complex?

339
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,000
Do you find that there's a
there's a there's a specific way

340
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,000
you think that's best to
approach this so far.

341
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,480
Have you hacked the code yet?
Well, for for communicating it.

342
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:39,240
Probably the the best approach
that I've seen so far to get

343
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,880
people to take this idea
seriously and to not just

344
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,920
dismiss it, is to point out the
failure of physicalist theories.

345
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,400
Yes, yes, right, right, that
that's that seems to to me

346
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,720
because I'm, I'm, some of them
might say, look you know, the

347
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,120
brain does it.
I mean forget all this stuff

348
00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:56,320
about conscious ation and so
forth.

349
00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:58,840
Mean look at all the physicalist
theory.

350
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:00,720
It's clear we have all these
neural correlates of

351
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,080
consciousness.
We're we're almost there.

352
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:05,880
We're you know we're getting
these neuro.

353
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,560
We got lots of neural correlates
of consciousness.

354
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,840
We have all these nice you know
we have integrated information

355
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:12,560
theory.
We have orchestrated collapse of

356
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,800
quantum States and microtubules.
We have you know attention

357
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:24,120
schema theory.
There's I I TI think already

358
00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:25,320
mentioned integrated
information.

359
00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:27,600
So there's just a bunch of these
oh global workspace theory is

360
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:28,880
another another big one.
Right.

361
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:33,440
So global workspace theory.
So, so you know, why do we need

362
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,560
someone who's who's clearly
often Moveland talking, saying

363
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,480
consciousness is fundamental and
and so forth.

364
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:43,120
And so for me the thing that I
think is is the most grabbing

365
00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:49,360
thing to say is if you ask any
of these theorists proponents to

366
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:52,720
these theories, OK, you're
integrated information theory.

367
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,800
This is the theory about
conscious experiences.

368
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,320
OK, so you're you're starting
with.

369
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,760
Some substrate, maybe it's
physical or some other

370
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,720
substrate, and you have this
causal architecture that's got

371
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:06,840
the right pattern of integrated
information.

372
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,720
And you're saying that that will
explain the the qualia of

373
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,480
specific conscious experiences
colored green, The taste of

374
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:21,000
chocolate, the smell of garlic,
the experience of auditory space

375
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,040
versus the experience of visual
space, or the experience of

376
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,480
haptic space as as as conscious
experiences?

377
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:34,160
So, which so clearly you've been
at this for a couple decades so

378
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,360
you must have a a whole bunch of
conscious experiences that that

379
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:39,520
you can now say this is the
pattern of integrated

380
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,920
information that must be the
taste of chocolate.

381
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:44,880
So, so, so give me what, what
what have you got?

382
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,040
Zero.
And you go, you go to every

383
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,240
theory and you ask them, So what
have you got?

384
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,280
How many qualia have you given
me the global workspace

385
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,160
architecture for or the
orchestrated collapse of quantum

386
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,640
states with neuron or
microtubules or integrated

387
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,760
information?
You know, Q, what they call the

388
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,600
Q shape.
How many, how many do you have?

389
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,080
Zero in every case.
So we have these theories that

390
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,360
have been out there for decades,
decades now that are batting 0,

391
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,440
and I'm saying they're batting 0
for principled reasons.

392
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,400
Space-time, the physicist, the
high energy theoretical

393
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,600
physicists are telling us
space-time is not fundamental

394
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:31,120
and reductionism is false.
These theories are failing

395
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:34,920
because they're not listening to
modern high energy theoretical

396
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,680
physicists that are telling us
that that game is over.

397
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,360
We're playing an old game.
It's like someone after Einstein

398
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:44,160
trying to play the Newtonian
game in understanding chemistry.

399
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,920
Good luck.
You can't understand chemistry

400
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,360
using Newton.
You have to use quantum

401
00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:51,840
mechanics.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have

402
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,080
said.
I should have said quantum

403
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:54,920
theory.
So done.

404
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,320
Before you move on from that,
I've because one of the

405
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,240
questions, one of the questions
from the audience.

406
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,360
So I gathered a bunch from
YouTube, Twitter, etcetera.

407
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,480
Unfortunately, sometimes I
forgot to actually write on the

408
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,720
the person's name.
So I've just left them all out

409
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:09,920
together.
So I'm just going to ask you

410
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,640
them at random.
But one of the questions was

411
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,560
directed at one of your
statements.

412
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,800
Because you've said this before
you you talk about the taste of

413
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,200
chocolate, You talk about the
smell of garlic.

414
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,120
This person says that whenever
you mention those specific

415
00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:29,880
states, they want to know why do
you want such a direct portion

416
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,120
of consciousness.
So let's say when you're asking

417
00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:35,280
for that qualitative qualia
experience of the taste of

418
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,600
chocolate, why go after a
specific state?

419
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,080
Because everything in the mind
is so blurry, so mismatched.

420
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,600
There's so much going on.
There's so much, let's say

421
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:49,240
heuristics, involved.
Wouldn't that be a bad approach

422
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,000
to trying to provide proof of a
theory?

423
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:58,240
Well, all I'm doing is is saying
to the people who are offering

424
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,320
these theories like the
integrated information theory or

425
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,840
global workspace, whatever,
they're the ones that are saying

426
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,640
we will start with neural
activity or this Q shape or

427
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,760
whatever and we will give you
conscious experiences like the

428
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:11,800
we will give you these
experiences.

429
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,080
I'm saying OK that's what you're
promising to do.

430
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,120
So I'm just asking you since
that's what you said you're

431
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:21,680
going to do.
I'm I'm just asking you how how

432
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,640
how's it going.
And I, by the way, I asked Julia

433
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,520
Tononi this back in late 1990s,
he came to UC Irvine to our

434
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,200
Helmholtz club meeting, and I
asked him to and he didn't have

435
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,200
any then.
And I asked him a few years ago

436
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,360
at at in Canada at A at a
conference, asked him again and.

437
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:42,960
And he admitted he needed to
offer one and he and he

438
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,360
couldn't.
And.

439
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,080
And and I've same thing with,
you know, Stuart Hameroff.

440
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,480
I mean, I had him at a
conference in front of four or

441
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,040
500 people.
I asked him, you know, so

442
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,760
Stuart, how's it going?
I mean, you're promising that

443
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,400
we'll start with these
orchestrated collapses and

444
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,160
you'll give us specific
conscious experiences.

445
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,680
So which ones?
I mean that that's what you

446
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,920
claim that you're doing.
So how many conscious

447
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:05,240
experiences have you nailed
down?

448
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,280
And I had to push him for three
or 4 minutes before he finally

449
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,360
said because he was Hemming and
humming.

450
00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:12,280
And I said no, no, no.
Stuart, give me one.

451
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,600
No, Stuart, give me one.
And he finally said, no, I can't

452
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:20,240
give you one.
So, so I'm just now if if if

453
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,200
they want to say, you know, we
have these wonderful theories,

454
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,920
integrated information theory
and they have nothing to do with

455
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,920
the taste of chocolate and the
smell of garlic, fine then then

456
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,840
I won't ask you the question.
But if they do say that, then

457
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,400
hey, the science is science,
where's the beef?

458
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,400
So that's that's what I do.
Don, I'm curious about your

459
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,600
opinion.
Was it about it was about two

460
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,880
months ago, I think about the
IIT?

461
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,040
Yes, Soiree, I mean that was it
was such a major issue within

462
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,640
the philosophy community and
science community in general.

463
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,240
What were your thoughts on that?
Just for the context, for the

464
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,200
listeners, it's it's the whole
debacle where IIT was accused of

465
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,840
being pseudoscience, right?
That's right.

466
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,880
And and when I looked at the the
letter that was put out there

467
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,600
and the references that they
gave, one of the things they

468
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,480
referenced was when Michael
Graziano on a paper of his on

469
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,240
potential schema theory where
where it basically says a theory

470
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,120
of consciousness is either
mechanical or it's magical.

471
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,600
And so the the signers of that
were basically signing on to

472
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,120
look a theory of consciousness
is either mechanical I mean

473
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:30,720
presumably neuro mechanical but
maybe AI kind of mechanical but

474
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,240
but most of them are thinking
neuro mechanical, right.

475
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,520
Or it's magical and So what
what?

476
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:45,440
So the argument is that IIT is
claiming some kind of substrate

477
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,960
independence.
There is a substrate so that it

478
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,560
doesn't say that consciousness
is fundamental.

479
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,920
It says there is a substrate to
consciousness but the substrate

480
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,080
might not be physical.
Of course they're they're

481
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,680
thinking it's physical right.
That's I mean ask them So what

482
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,120
is so how many non physical
substrates are you, you know

483
00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:05,600
have you concentrated So what
are you going to say ectoplasm?

484
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,000
I don't know what so so but
anyway they're they're they're

485
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,080
saying that there's a substrate
but they're not committed to a

486
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,360
neural this way.
There's not necessarily a neural

487
00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:16,040
substrate.
It could be some kind of

488
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,640
computational architecture
that's completely non neural.

489
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,120
So, so I don't think they're
going non physical, but they

490
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:29,200
they could be going non neural
and so that means that they're

491
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,840
they're dealing with something
that is it looks like a

492
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,920
disembodied mathematical causal
structure, right.

493
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:40,360
Although the IIT people would of
course say it has to be

494
00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:44,920
instantiated in something so the
substrate is is is important.

495
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:51,040
But somehow they they think that
because it's not they're not

496
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,760
tying.
They're not starting with

497
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,200
neurons.
They're not starting with with

498
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,320
neural circuitry or something
like that and trying to show

499
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:03,920
that that leads to
consciousness.

500
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,480
They're starting with something
more abstract and and not

501
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,680
necessarily mechanical.
It's it's not like this fires

502
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,960
and that fires and we have this
circuit and and so forth it it's

503
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,200
more abstract mathematical kind
of thing.

504
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,320
So I'm just trying to explain
the kind of get in the heads of

505
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,720
the people that are there
worried about this they're and

506
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,960
so they're they're concerned
about that.

507
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:37,440
Now my my attitude is I think
that all of these theories have

508
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,800
the problem that I just
mentioned which is there's no

509
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:44,720
beef there's no no successes in
in the in terms of specific

510
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,360
conscious experiences and and
and what's happened is all the

511
00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:52,120
physicalists I think that
they're starting to understand

512
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,560
that they're not they're they
have nothing in terms of

513
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,320
concrete conscious experiences
that they can explain without

514
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,240
hand wave.
There's zero.

515
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,760
They're forming A circular
firing squad, right?

516
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,240
They're they're they're shooting
at each other and and

517
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,680
everybody's vulnerable to the
the, the objection that I just

518
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,320
gave, the objection is you claim
that you'll start with

519
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,200
integrated information or I
start with, you know, higher

520
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:20,480
order theory.
Now.

521
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,120
Now we're doing the neural
stuff, higher order theories or

522
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:25,640
first order theories or global
workspace theory.

523
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:28,960
And I'm going to give you
specific conscious experiences.

524
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,640
Which one?
Well, I can't give you any right

525
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,320
now.
How long we've been doing this

526
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:33,680
decades.
We've been doing this for

527
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:34,920
decades.
You can't give me one.

528
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,960
So, so at some point people get
impatient and and and go, you

529
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,600
know, now now I should say I'm
good friends.

530
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,760
These are, these are my friends
and colleagues, right?

531
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,600
So they're brilliant.
Some of them are geniuses and

532
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,560
all of them are brilliant and
some of them are geniuses.

533
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,200
Why are they not making progress
there?

534
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:58,640
It's not because they're not
smart.

535
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,120
They're brilliant.
They're they're not making

536
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,640
progress because we're not
listening to what the high

537
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,480
energy theoretical physicists
are telling us. space-time is

538
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,400
doomed and reductionism is
false.

539
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,160
We have to listen to our best
current science.

540
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,600
It was fine 30 years ago to
assume that space-time is

541
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,480
fundamental and reductionism is
the way to go.

542
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,080
In fact, it was the right
approach given our current

543
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,040
science at the time.
But it's no longer, it's no

544
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,760
longer feasible.
It's ignoring, it's it's, it's

545
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,880
frankly just ignoring our best
science and that's not what we

546
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,960
want to do.
So my prediction is as soon as

547
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,400
these brilliant colleagues and
friends of mine really

548
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,960
understand that we need a new
framework and they switch, I

549
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,520
think all of a sudden we'll make
some serious progress in on this

550
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,440
field.
And we'll look back and and

551
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,160
realize that we're in sort of
the Flat Earth period of of this

552
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,840
field.
And as long as you assume Flat

553
00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,560
Earth, you can't do a space
program.

554
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,240
Soon as you like go over the
Flat Earth, then you you start

555
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,960
to have the tools that you can
that you need to actually start

556
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,520
doing a space program.
You mentioned Michael Graziano.

557
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,200
He was actually, he was the
first person I interviewed on

558
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,720
this podcast, and this is how it
feels like ages ago.

559
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,280
But I remember him saying that
if you take attention schema

560
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,720
theory and you plop it on top of
global workspace theory, he

561
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,240
believes that together it
actually would provide a very

562
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:32,000
complete area of consciousness.
But I can't help but think based

563
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,880
on the fact that he's saying
that based on the fact that they

564
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,600
used, it's either mechanical or
magical.

565
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,120
Do you think it's, it would be
similar to compare Michael's

566
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,360
theory and global workspace if
they continue to do as well as

567
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,400
they do separately and maybe
even together to be the Newton's

568
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,200
theory in physics or Newtonian
physics of the brain.

569
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,160
And then while you guys are
going on to sort of do the

570
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,920
Einsteins.
Theory of consciousness Do you

571
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:01,960
think you guys are going to
approach consciousness in that

572
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,520
sort of way?
Well, yeah.

573
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,960
Now I should be very, very clear
that I think that the work that

574
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,560
they're doing on getting models
of the neural correlates of

575
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,120
consciousness is brilliant and
useful and that will survive,

576
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,440
right?
But it's not a theory of the

577
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,280
generation of consciousness.
It's it's a a theory about how

578
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:27,440
we see consciousness correlated
with parts of brain activity.

579
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,760
But so so I so I'm all all for
that now.

580
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,240
My understanding about Graziano
is at least in some of his

581
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,520
writings, I've I've gotten him.
I've gotten the impression that

582
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,760
he thinks that that conscious
experiences is in some sense an

583
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,240
illusion.
We have the it's not, you know,

584
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,520
there aren't really quality, but
we have the illusion.

585
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,080
It's a he calls it a caricature.
He actually intentionally avoids

586
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:55,600
the word illusion right.
I I care so so if if if yeah so

587
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,840
if he doesn't want to use the
word illusion Keith Frankish

588
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,360
does so Keith does use the word
illusion and and if you know

589
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,160
Michael wants to use you know
caricature that that's fine.

590
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,840
But as the scientist my my
feeling I'll say first about the

591
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,960
illusion approach with and I've
said this to I mean Keith is a

592
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,320
great guy I I really enjoy
talking with him my my my

593
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,360
philly's a friend and so forth.
But I I've, I've pointed this

594
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:25,120
out to him and he hasn't
demurred that, you know, saying

595
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,880
that it's an illusion doesn't
get them off the hook because we

596
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,080
now need a scientific theory
about what specific pattern of

597
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,760
brain activity must be the
illusion of the taste of

598
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,920
chocolate and could not be the
illusion of garlic.

599
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,440
So, so you might think, oh,
well, now that they said it's an

600
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,400
illusion, they don't have the
problem that Hoffman's bringing

601
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:43,640
up.
No, no, no, no, no.

602
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,160
They have, you mean we have to
do science here.

603
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,640
If you're saying it's an
illusion, I want to have a

604
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,320
precise scientific theory about
why that has to be that illusion

605
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,000
and couldn't be, you know, the
the this other illusion.

606
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,320
They call it I would.
They call it the illusion

607
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,480
problem that that that's that's
right.

608
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,480
And I would say the same thing
you know, from Graziano.

609
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,880
If it's a character, then why
should this particular brain

610
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,880
activity be the caricature of
the color green and not the

611
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,280
caricature of the color red?
I mean, I want to, again, as a

612
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,720
scientist, I don't want a hand
wave and I don't want to say

613
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:19,920
because I called it a
caricature.

614
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:21,880
I don't owe you a scientific
theory.

615
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,240
I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm not
interested.

616
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:30,280
I'm interested in results.
I want a theory where this is

617
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,840
it's an illusion or a caricature
or the real qualia.

618
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,760
I want a theory that that gives
me the beef and says this

619
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,200
pattern must be this caricature
and it couldn't be that

620
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,400
caricature otherwise.
I mean, I'm philosophy is fine.

621
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:44,960
I have a joint appointment in
philosophy.

622
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,640
I love philosophy, but I'm
talking science here and so I I

623
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,040
want a scientific theory.
So, so that that's sort of my

624
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,320
attitude about that whole thing.
Yeah, and I think, but what I

625
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,680
was trying to get at was.
It will still be very useful and

626
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,560
and it will actually work in the
sense that in in the same way

627
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,520
Newtonian physics works, because
we still use it.

628
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,600
It's still very practical.
It's it, it's just doesn't go

629
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,719
away.
So in that sense it will still

630
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:14,040
be very very good at its job.
But I agree, and and and but

631
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,719
also they'll.
You'll have some with Newton.

632
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,360
You have some misconceptions.
You, you have the idea that,

633
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,239
well, I should be able to get
the position and the momentum at

634
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,880
the same time to arbitrary
accuracy when I'm looking at

635
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:25,679
stuff.
Right.

636
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:28,159
And you get so so you're led to
believe certain things.

637
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,840
Well, that turned out to be
false.

638
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,320
And and so so the.
So the.

639
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,639
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Newton is great if you want to

640
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:38,560
send a rocket to the moon.
It'll work and and for for a lot

641
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,080
of everyday stuff.
But but sometimes it leads you

642
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,320
into conceptual errors like the
position momentum like and

643
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,320
something like these, these
physicalist theories.

644
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,719
I think they will be very, very
good for the neural correlates

645
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,560
of consciousness and so forth.
But they're going to lead to

646
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,679
some.
They are leading to what I think

647
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:58,400
are fundamental errors and I'll,
I'll, I'll name one that I think

648
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,480
is is a crucial error.
They want to make a distinction

649
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,880
between which circuits of the
brain or which physical objects

650
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,320
in general are conscious, which
ones are not.

651
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,880
So they they want to they want
to use IIT in hospitals to

652
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,000
determine whether someone's a
vegetable or not.

653
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,360
You know should we pull the plug
or or not.

654
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,880
So and that that's something
that you as a doctor are quite

655
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,840
interested in I'm sure.
And and so they're making

656
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:31,360
they're making the assumption
that some physical systems are

657
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,840
associated with consciousness
and others are not.

658
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,960
That's that's their assumption.
OK.

659
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:43,640
Now if if it turns out that
space-time isn't fundamental and

660
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,320
objects in space-time are not
fundamental.

661
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,440
In other words, if we listen to
what the high energy theoretical

662
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,480
physicists are telling us and
they're saying that there are

663
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,160
structures outside of space-time
and they're finding them like

664
00:35:54,600 --> 00:36:01,400
amplitude, hedron and decorator
permutations, what is

665
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,920
space-time?
It's not the fundamental reality

666
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,480
anymore and objects in
space-time are not.

667
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,200
So now we have to understand
what is that.

668
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,560
And So what I'm proposing is
that space-time and objects in

669
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,040
space-time are just a headset,
just an interface.

670
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,400
So think about it that way.
So here I'm at I'm I'm using an

671
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,160
interface to talk with you and I
see I'm using zoom we're we're

672
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,440
talking via zoom.
And I see a bunch of pixels on

673
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:29,280
the screen and I see pixels of,
you know, Tevin's face and I see

674
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,960
also pixels of a, of a, of a
wall behind you.

675
00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:36,480
Now I'm getting a lot of
conscious input from the pixels

676
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:37,960
on your face.
I mean I can see your

677
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:39,960
expression.
I can see if you're interested

678
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,560
or or not the pixels on the
wall, but not much.

679
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:49,720
Now I could say aha, so I want
to have the, the, the pixel

680
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:51,440
correlates of consciousness.
Aha.

681
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:56,080
So these are the conscious
pixels, the ones on and those

682
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,080
are the conscious pixels in
tablet space and the ones on the

683
00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:59,480
wall, those are not conscious
pixels.

684
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,920
And so now I'm going to have my,
I'm going to have my little

685
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,760
mathematical model and say these
pixels are conscious and those

686
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,760
pixels are not because these
have some complicated pattern of

687
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,920
interaction and those do not.
Well, that's completely wrong

688
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,040
headed pixels are pixels,
period.

689
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,880
Some and they're not conscious
or unconscious, they're they're

690
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,200
a merely a headset, an
interface.

691
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:27,240
Some pixels give me access to a
conscious consciousness behind

692
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:32,160
the zoom and others don't and
and so when you realize that

693
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,400
that's so that is a fundamental
difference here, right?

694
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,600
If if we use something like
integrated information theory,

695
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,920
which is saying certain physical
systems are conscious and others

696
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:48,800
are not, I'm saying that claim
is absolutely false and it's

697
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,280
dangerous to assume it in in
hospital settings.

698
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,160
So this is this is the academic.
Yeah so now this goes beyond

699
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,320
this is very practical this
becomes very important for us

700
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,320
and and and that's actually the
main when I started the podcast

701
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,000
one of the one of the
description layers was this

702
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,880
podcast is function is to show
just how difficult

703
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,680
intellectually and practically
the mind body problem is

704
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,080
because.
The moment you do finally figure

705
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,520
out whatever theory of
consciousness you want to

706
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,760
develop and grow, it has so many
practical implications.

707
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,120
And in this case, I mean, you're
touching on on, on a very, very

708
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:27,280
big one.
I mean death.

709
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:28,800
We're talking life and death at
this point.

710
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,400
Absolutely and and pulling the
plug or or not and and it it's

711
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:39,240
if if the foundation is so wrong
that it's actually it's at it's

712
00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:41,440
at the level of saying these
pixels are conscious and these

713
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,280
pixels are not.
It's that that kind of error

714
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:48,280
then then we we have to be very,
very careful about it So, so so

715
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,960
this is not just academic
anymore saying that space-time

716
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,080
as a headset has real real
implications moral implications

717
00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:00,000
and technological implications
and it it also has implications

718
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,600
for the whole debate about can
AIS be conscious right.

719
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,000
This gives you the standard way
that that's considered.

720
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,920
And and again, it brings up all
sorts of moral questions that

721
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,120
people are worried about.
But the way it's thought about

722
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:16,080
is we have a physical system
that a priori is not conscious.

723
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,000
Somehow if we give it the right
kind of complexity,

724
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,480
computational complexity, it
will be conscious.

725
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,440
Well, that's exactly the same
mistake as saying if I get the

726
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:31,800
right kind of complexity in the
zoom pixel activity, it'll be a

727
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,280
consciousness.
No, it's not.

728
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,840
It's just so certain.
Zoom pixels give me a portal

729
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:41,200
into Tevin's consciousness, and
other zoom pixels on my screen

730
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,040
don't give me any portals into
Tevin's consciousness.

731
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,160
The pixels are not conscious or
unconscious.

732
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:52,040
It's about the headset and how
it's engaged to what's beyond

733
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,120
space-time, what's outside the
space-time, and how it's

734
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,520
effectively or not effectively
giving us access to what's

735
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,360
beyond space-time.
The whole point of a headset is

736
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,560
to simplify things, and at some
point you're going to simplify

737
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,560
things so so much that you can't
really say much about it, right

738
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:15,400
when I look at you.
My my interface has given me a

739
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,360
portal into your consciousness.
That's that's good.

740
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,440
No, not perfect.
Even if you've lived with

741
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,880
someone, you've been married to
someone for 30 years, you find

742
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,560
out that there's things you
don't know, right?

743
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,240
So it's not a perfect portal.
But when I look at my cat, the

744
00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:31,520
portal is even worse.
And when I look at an Ant, it's

745
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,440
even worse.
And a microbe, it's even worse.

746
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,160
When I look at a rock, my my
headset has given up because

747
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,240
headsets are there to simplify
things.

748
00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:43,480
At some point it has to give up.
So it's not that the rock isn't.

749
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,480
It's not that like the tevin
human body is conscious or not

750
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,160
conscious and the rock is
conscious not.

751
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,200
It's just that these are symbols
that give us portals into a

752
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:55,760
pre-existing consciousness or
not.

753
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,120
In the case of the rock, my idea
is that we're interacting with

754
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,920
consciousness all the time.
But when I see a rock, I'm not

755
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:04,920
getting much insight into the
consciousness that I'm

756
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,360
interacting with.
It's not.

757
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:07,920
So I'm not saying the rock is
conscious.

758
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:09,760
It's not panpsychism.
So I'm not.

759
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,920
I'm not a panpsychist.
Headset is a headset.

760
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,040
Consciousness is consciousness.
I'm not saying that you know.

761
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,560
See most panpsychists are
thinking that that space-time is

762
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,680
fundamental, particles are
fundamental.

763
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,880
But behind the equations of
physics and behind the particles

764
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,880
what breathes fire into the
equations and life into the

765
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,000
particles is consciousness
inside space-time.

766
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,520
But but we'll keep the same laws
of physics and so forth you know

767
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,480
so consciousness is sort of
almost along for the ride but

768
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,000
the you know the laws of physics
are really doing all the I'm I'm

769
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,920
I'm having I'm I'm good friends
with Philip Goff and and we we

770
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:46,840
have good discussions on that
and Philip has said to me that

771
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,080
he's he's willing to let go of
space-time but but we'll we'll

772
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:54,680
see you know I'll push push to
to let go of that and if he does

773
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:59,720
I think we'll be very very close
in our views but so you know I

774
00:41:59,720 --> 00:42:01,920
think that I think I'll just
stop there.

775
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,120
I'm going to chat to Philip and
I think Jan or Feb, I can't

776
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,560
remember when we scheduled it,
but I'm going to ask him about

777
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:08,800
this.
I'm going to see how close he's

778
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,200
gotten to to that sort of
conversion.

779
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,600
But I'm glad you're touching.
As it stands, Don, you're

780
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,280
touching on some practical stuff
at the moment.

781
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,560
And I and this is what I sort of
premised a lot of these

782
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,440
questions on, which is great
because I think that these

783
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,920
practical implications of
understanding this headset or

784
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,880
understanding this virtual
reality, this Matrix, whatever

785
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,680
people want to call it.
It's pretty much the same thing.

786
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,600
You are saying that this this
world we're living in is a sort

787
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,040
of simulation.
In that sense, it is a virtual

788
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,240
reality.
Some people love you using the

789
00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:39,280
word matrix.
Just to be clear, it's not the

790
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,800
same type of matrixes from the
movie, but nevertheless, the

791
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,440
word matrix seems to be now
synonymous with simulation in

792
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,640
this virtual reality.
You just go to this question

793
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,480
that I have for you.
How did mental health or mental

794
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,520
disabilities?
Work within this sort of

795
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,160
framework.
Does your work now give you a

796
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,120
sort of.
I know you have to now almost

797
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,720
become a philosopher and and
sort of maybe even guesstimate

798
00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:10,280
certain aspects of this because
it's very difficult to go

799
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,280
outside this box already and to
go even further beyond

800
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:17,120
space-time to now give me mental
health theories is going to be

801
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,320
even more difficult.
But just out of curiosity, what

802
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,160
what is it?
Is it a bug in the actual

803
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,760
virtual reality?
What's going on here?

804
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:36,280
Well, so the way I think about
it is that there space and time

805
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,520
and what we see in space and
time is just a headset and

806
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,000
behind the headset is this realm
of conscious agents.

807
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,920
So that's that's another part of
the ontology that we're

808
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:46,440
proposing.
I'm not saying I'm right.

809
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,200
I'm just saying I'm trying to be
precise and I got to say

810
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,520
something specific.
So I'm saying that there's a

811
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,240
vast social network of conscious
agents that in some sense

812
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,400
probably are.
Ultimately, I'll realize that

813
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,320
there's one conscious agent, and
this network of it is just a

814
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,840
nice analytic tool that I have
to use as a scientist.

815
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,680
So I'll talk about there's one
conscious agent, but I'm using

816
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,800
this network because that's what
I need to use to do mathematics.

817
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:20,840
So that one conscious agent,
what is it up to and why, right?

818
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,640
I don't know, so I I I will
guess.

819
00:44:24,720 --> 00:44:30,000
But one one possibility is it
it's a theorem that no system

820
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:31,560
can ever understand itself
completely.

821
00:44:34,240 --> 00:44:36,880
If I have a computer system and
it wants to understand itself,

822
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,240
it has to build a model of
itself.

823
00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:40,480
Well, as soon as it builds a
model of itself, now it's more

824
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,760
complicated.
So now to understand itself, the

825
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,080
new self with the model, it's
going to have to model itself

826
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,080
with a model and you get in this
infinite recursion.

827
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:54,800
So, so maybe what the maybe the
the the one infinite

828
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,560
consciousness which transcends
any particular instantiation in

829
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,760
like a space-time instantiation
or whatever.

830
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:04,800
You know we have a three
dimensions of space, one

831
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,480
dimension of time.
What about A50 dimensions of

832
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:11,080
space and and and one dimension
of time I I can see 7,000,000

833
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,720
colors.
Why not 20 trillion colors and

834
00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:16,080
and new?
In other words, this is just one

835
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:22,000
possible form instantiation that
the consciousness can use out of

836
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,880
its out of an infinite potential
to to look at itself.

837
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,440
So what what consciousness is up
to is looking at itself from

838
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:36,800
different perspectives and then
losing itself in the perspective

839
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,480
so identify.
So I I'm I I'm now identified

840
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,160
with the Hoffman body.
I think I'm only you know I'm

841
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,680
just that and I'm nothing more
and I'm afraid of death and and

842
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,000
the whole bit and then slowly
waking up and realizing Oh no

843
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:56,520
no, I I now know myself because
I know I'm not Hoffman and I'm

844
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,880
not I'm not So all the stuff
that I thought I was and I

845
00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:02,120
immersed myself you know both
feet.

846
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:08,280
I jumped in with both feet on
this thing and spent 70 years 80

847
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:13,520
years 90 years and then woke up
and and now I know myself

848
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,520
because I know I I know myself
better because I know I'm not

849
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:23,760
that I said knowing yourself by
a bunch of negations and and and

850
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:29,440
so now so now from that point of
view the one can know itself by

851
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:37,520
being a paraplegic or having you
know Alzheimer's or you're

852
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:42,280
having you know all you know any
any kind of mental disease you

853
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,080
you want some kind of nervous
breakdown.

854
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,320
I I just have nervous breakdowns
all the time or you know

855
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,440
whatever it might be or I I I
also experience myself as being

856
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:55,520
you know the the world's fastest
Olympic runner and and and the

857
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,440
world's Einstein.
I'll and then I'll wake up, but

858
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,000
I'm not that either.
That's so in other words

859
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,280
essentially even behind someone
who looks completely debilitated

860
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,800
is this infinite consciousness
just looking at itself.

861
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,680
So, so in that point of view
everything deserves equal

862
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,000
respect, right.
So there's there's there's a

863
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,960
moral aspect to this which says
when I see someone who has an IQ

864
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:27,800
of 50, there's no difference
between me and that when I look

865
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:32,360
at my cat is I am the same one
consciousness that's also

866
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,640
looking at me through the cat.
Those are just different avatars

867
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:37,840
of the one consciousness from
this point of view.

868
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:43,000
So what what happens from this
point of view is there is no

869
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:52,810
grounds for putting barriers
between me and anybody else.

870
00:47:54,050 --> 00:47:57,650
This actually says I am that
just looking at it through a

871
00:47:57,650 --> 00:48:00,370
different interface.
And this, I think, is the

872
00:48:00,370 --> 00:48:04,680
foundation for a genuine love.
That love is recognizing.

873
00:48:04,720 --> 00:48:07,960
It's not just loving the other
as yourself, it's recognizing

874
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,800
that the other is yourself.
It's you, the infinite

875
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,320
conscience, looking at yourself
through a different avatar.

876
00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:17,280
Yeah, and it's it's you, you see
this sort of play out and a lot

877
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,720
of ancient cultures as well,
where let's say someone goes out

878
00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:24,080
and hunts for food, they kill
the animal and they sort of prey

879
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:28,920
to it.
Hug it do a sort of sing songs

880
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:30,960
around it because they know they
have to eat.

881
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,600
This being that is sort of still
part of them.

882
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,680
And and this, this is quite a a
quite a recurring theme with

883
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:44,920
religions with sort of spiritual
spiritualists and I've noticed a

884
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,240
lot of idealist theories in
general tend to lead to this

885
00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:52,720
that that that's right opposite.
I didn't intend to go there.

886
00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:58,040
Yeah which is quite fascinating.
I mean I I was just sort of led

887
00:48:58,040 --> 00:48:59,880
by you know if I'm going to
assume that consciousness is

888
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:03,760
fundamental and I start this one
step after another and I sort of

889
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,040
lead kicking and screaming to
this but but now that I've gone

890
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,800
there it it it it starts to make
sense it's so counter intuitive

891
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,520
but but but that counter
intuitiveness might just be the

892
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,680
the you know the one jumped in
with both feet and it it let

893
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:20,160
itself get completely lost in
it.

894
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,400
In other words if if you're
really going to know that you're

895
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,040
not that you have to believe
that you are it for a while

896
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,720
really let yourself believe it
and then wake up and then you

897
00:49:28,720 --> 00:49:31,600
really you you took that very
very seriously.

898
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,480
You really understood what it
meant to be a Tevin or a Don or

899
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:39,040
or you know a Michael Graziano
or whoever it might be.

900
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,080
You know, you you you learned
what it meant to be that.

901
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,560
And then you realize I'm not
that I I am this consciousness

902
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:45,600
that transcends that.
It's.

903
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,080
It's it's like when.
Bernardo talks about this

904
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,440
dissociated alters, I mean of a
universal mind.

905
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,680
Bernardo Castrop, when he says
it's it's pretty much the same

906
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,320
thing, that universal mind and
we're just these avatars or

907
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,760
dissociated alters of the same
sort of entity.

908
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,520
There is no separation here at
all.

909
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,680
That's right.
So I'm I'm pretty much on the

910
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,600
same page with Bernardo on on on
on most things.

911
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,480
The one little wrinkle that we
add though and it may not be

912
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,840
just a little wrinkle is that
this trace logic that I

913
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:21,480
mentioned at the start is the
first formal structure I found

914
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:26,480
outside of space-time about the
structure of the one and it's a

915
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:30,240
non boolean logic and there's no
global complement.

916
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:35,640
So this is the first hint I've
gotten of of a structure on and

917
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:39,040
I'm not saying that our our this
is the final word about the the

918
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:40,840
structure of the One.
Absolutely not.

919
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:45,400
It's but it's the first baby
step and the first baby step in

920
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,160
terms of a mathematical model of
quote UN quote God.

921
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:54,520
Of the one is already blowing my
mind because it's not clear what

922
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:59,320
the word 1 even means.
If this thing is not a boolean

923
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:03,640
logic, there is no like one top
Markovian kernel.

924
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:08,280
So so I I use the word one.
But right now when I use it

925
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,040
already my math is telling me
Don, you're gonna you're gonna

926
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:15,400
have to think deeper that the
word 1 doesn't there that that

927
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,960
whatever kind of unity that is,
is not a trivial unity and it's

928
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:20,960
not a boolean logic by any
means.

929
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:26,960
So what do you mean by the one?
So, so already the math I might

930
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,000
be using the same words that the
religious people are are using,

931
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:31,440
have used for thousands of
years.

932
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:36,680
But already the math is telling
me this goes way, way deeper

933
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:41,320
than I'd ever imagined and and
and probably way deeper than the

934
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,520
human mind because of the
interface limitations we have.

935
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:46,400
Yes could ever.
Understand.

936
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,400
Look, because that's another one
of my questions at some point.

937
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,880
I mean how how far do you think
you're going to get done knowing

938
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:57,840
that we are limited in essence
and we'll never really, we never

939
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,320
really evolved the capability to
perceive truth.

940
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,680
I mean, we know the difference
between proofs and truths and

941
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,320
radicality.
How close do you really think

942
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:10,760
that this will take you?
Well.

943
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,240
So sorry, I was going to say
that's always a tough question.

944
00:52:19,240 --> 00:52:23,080
I mean when we know that we're
so limited, it's it's so

945
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:26,320
difficult for us to really go
beyond anything further and

946
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:28,760
deeper.
Does that does that ever keep

947
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:33,760
you up at night?
Well, well, I think about it

948
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,040
quite a bit, but I try to do it
during the day.

949
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,120
The here's one important aspect
of it though, and that is what

950
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:44,720
is the nature of scientific
theory building?

951
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,640
What are scientific theories?
What what do we mean by

952
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:51,840
scientific theory?
A theory in science says please

953
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:55,400
grant me these assumptions and
if you grant me these

954
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:57,920
assumptions and I can make them
mathematically precise so I'll

955
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,120
make these assumptions
mathematically precise, then I

956
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:07,680
can derive and predict all these
wonderful things and and so

957
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:11,200
that's and and and if you do it
right the mathematical

958
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,560
description of the theory will
tell you the scope of those

959
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,160
assumptions how much that they
can really do their power and

960
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,440
they will the it'll also tell
you the limits like Einstein's

961
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:23,440
special theory and general
theory of relativity.

962
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:25,560
They they tell you it's great
scope.

963
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:27,640
The mathematics tells you it's
it's incredible.

964
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:29,960
It predicts black holes and then
all this other it's amazing

965
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:31,080
study.
It works really well.

966
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:35,200
It also tells you when you
combine it with Einstein's

967
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,920
contribution to quantum theory E
= H nu.

968
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,120
You when you combine that with
that, it tells you that

969
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,760
space-time is doomed at 10 to
the -33 centimeters.

970
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:51,000
It tells you that Einstein's
theory, his beautiful theory, it

971
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:55,440
tells you the scope and the
limits 10 to the -33 that theory

972
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,360
dies 10 to the -43 seconds it's
over.

973
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:02,320
So now you might say, well, of
course that's true of any

974
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,960
theory, but I can now give you a
deeper theory that explains

975
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:07,680
those assumptions of the of the
theory that you just.

976
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:08,760
So I'll give you a deeper
theory.

977
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:10,800
Absolutely.
You can always get a deeper

978
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,160
theory, but your new deeper
theory will have its own

979
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,440
assumptions.
And this goes on ad infinitum.

980
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:21,760
So my my take on it is science
is one of the best tools we

981
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:23,200
have.
And I do it.

982
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:27,040
I'm doing science.
I love science and science.

983
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,880
After billions and billions of
years, if we continue to do it

984
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:35,800
for billions and billions of
years, the fraction of knowledge

985
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,280
that we would have about reality
is precisely measure 0.

986
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:45,040
Right, Precisely measure 0.
And yet we have to do it.

987
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:50,840
I we can never with science,
write a theory of everything.

988
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,840
So when we talk about a theory
of everything, the real

989
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,960
scientists do it with a wink and
a nod, right.

990
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:00,880
It's it's it's a it's a theory
of everything so far and and so

991
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:04,200
far is pretty trivial.
So.

992
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:08,960
So I I think it's in principle
the case that scientific

993
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:14,160
theories can never be a theory
of everything, but but they can

994
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:16,560
tell us their limits.
That's what's powerful about

995
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:19,600
science.
The the theories of science tell

996
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:21,240
us their limits.
Like the theory of evolution by

997
00:55:21,240 --> 00:55:24,840
natural selection actually
entails that space-time isn't

998
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,600
fundamental, and Einstein's
theory of space-time tell

999
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:29,440
entails that space-time isn't
fundamental.

1000
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:32,320
These theories tell you their
limits, right?

1001
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:36,120
Because evolution by natural
selection, the way Darwin was

1002
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,040
thinking about it is talking
about organisms in space and

1003
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:41,720
time competing for resources in
space and time.

1004
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:44,840
And when you look at
evolutionary game theory, it

1005
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:49,200
tells you that the very
categories of space and time and

1006
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,840
objects are not the fundamental
reality those are just headset

1007
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:55,840
categories.
So it it tells you its limits.

1008
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:02,120
I think what our theories do
that's that's essential is they

1009
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:08,000
do tell us truths about the
particular perspective that our

1010
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:13,240
headset gives us.
So science can give us truths

1011
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:17,680
about our headset.
There's an infinite reality of

1012
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:21,400
consciousness that transcends
any scientific theory.

1013
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,520
But we can look at different
perspectives on that and

1014
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:28,440
different possible headsets.
Right now all of science has

1015
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,720
been looking at a particular
space-time headset. 3 Dimensions

1016
00:56:31,720 --> 00:56:35,240
of Space One Dimension of time
10 to the -33 centimetres.

1017
00:56:35,240 --> 00:56:38,000
It's over with.
It's a fairly cheap headset.

1018
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,240
We we thought it was the final
reality it it just turned out to

1019
00:56:41,240 --> 00:56:44,800
be a knock off cheap headset and
and but now we've learned the

1020
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,840
tools inside the headset.
We studied the headset we

1021
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:49,760
thought we were studying the
truth it was just the headset

1022
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,240
but now we have the tools we can
step outside the headset and

1023
00:56:53,240 --> 00:56:56,520
imagine other headsets and
imagine and then that's all my

1024
00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:02,120
theory of conscious agency is.
It's just a projecting model of

1025
00:57:02,240 --> 00:57:04,360
of consciousness.
It's no longer taking space-time

1026
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:06,360
as fundamental, it's taking
consciousness as fundamental.

1027
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,760
But I'm recognizing I can never
get a theory of the ultimate

1028
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,120
consciousness.
Let me start off with little

1029
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:15,320
networks of conscious agents
because I can model that and

1030
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,280
that's just going to be a
projection at best of the deeper

1031
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,320
reality.
So that's what every question

1032
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,280
you ask.
I mean, the answer is not

1033
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:28,760
trivial.
We science can never get a

1034
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:32,160
theory of everything, but we can
get good theories of

1035
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:36,560
projections, of of reality and
then just to put a less

1036
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:40,680
spiritual twist on it, but you
are that reality.

1037
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:45,840
You are from this point of view,
and in some sense you can know

1038
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:49,240
it first hand by just letting go
of any theory and letting go of

1039
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:51,680
and just being.
So when you just sit, you know,

1040
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:57,000
in meditation, that is the
closest you're going to get to

1041
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:58,840
what transcends any scientific
theory.

1042
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:06,480
It's it's incredible because you
because I obviously I've chatted

1043
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,040
to you many times and I know how
you think and I can tell well, I

1044
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,720
don't know exactly how you
think, but I know how science

1045
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:17,240
minded you are and how much it
must perhaps annoy you when.

1046
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:21,560
You're clumped into categories
of thinkers when you are

1047
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,000
actively doing science.
Because I know that I there

1048
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:25,560
there are many people I've
spoken to on this channel who

1049
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:27,960
have the same problem.
The moment you step outside any

1050
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:31,360
sort of status quo you, you're
automatically grouped together

1051
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:33,920
as a as either some sort of a
hippie scientist or a

1052
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:35,920
spiritualist thinker.
And they they they give you

1053
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:38,840
these labels that I think are
unwarranted and for the most

1054
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,400
part unfair.
And someone who has a similar

1055
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,120
issue is, is Thomas Campbell.
Because when I spoke to him.

1056
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:48,360
Your theories are very similar
and one of the questions are

1057
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,400
wrote down here and he he really
hates this because he's trying

1058
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:55,840
his best to not be associated
with any form of religion sort

1059
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:58,960
of dogma, because he does try
and explain things outside of

1060
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:02,400
the realm of what we could say,
quote UN quote, is normal.

1061
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:05,440
The question I have here is, and
this is not from me, this is

1062
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:10,200
from one of the viewers, where
does Thomas Campbell's theory

1063
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:13,480
start and Donald Hoffman's
theory end?

1064
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:17,320
It's they're just trying to ask.
So what's the difference between

1065
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:19,800
these two different types of
virtual realities you guys are

1066
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:21,640
talking about?
Because they're both very

1067
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:23,800
similar and yet they are very
different.

1068
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:26,000
I think this person obviously
just does not see the greater

1069
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:32,000
detail in them, right?
So I I did have a conversation

1070
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,480
with Tom and so I could actually
point out there is a podcast

1071
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:36,400
where Tom and I go into this in
great detail.

1072
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:38,600
So I I I can.
Yeah, Yeah.

1073
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:41,560
I'll give you the link to it.
So, so, so I'll just give a

1074
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:44,120
short answer because that's
there there.

1075
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:48,280
I mean Tom and I go at it for an
hour or two so and it's very

1076
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:53,120
friendly, of course, very
friendly but but but so he has,

1077
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:56,040
he calls it my Big Toe His
Theory, Big Theory of

1078
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:58,920
Everything.
And so I've just given you my

1079
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:04,760
theory of everything what that
means and so so I at the very

1080
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:07,080
end of our conversation I I I
pushed him on it.

1081
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:09,440
I said look.
There is no such thing as a

1082
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,400
theory of everything, wouldn't
you agree?

1083
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:14,360
And he ultimately he he, he
agreed there is no theory of

1084
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,080
everything.
So initially I thought that that

1085
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:17,440
might be a big difference
between us.

1086
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:19,960
But but I I really wanted to
find out.

1087
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,680
I mean, do do you really
believe, Tom, that you've got

1088
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:25,640
the final word on truth with
your theory?

1089
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:28,200
Because I don't.
If if you if you do believe

1090
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:31,600
that, then then my theory is
utterly different from yours,

1091
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:35,920
'cause I think all I've got is a
little tiny baby step outside of

1092
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:37,480
our headset and that's all I've
got.

1093
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:40,080
And I'm I'm never going to have
a theory of everything.

1094
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:49,840
So so we now the difference I
see between us just in terms of

1095
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:53,560
practical theory building is
he's using a lot of quantum

1096
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,080
theoretical ideas in in his
approach right.

1097
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:02,000
A lot of it's is using.
I mean, he's got advanced, I

1098
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:04,640
guess he didn't get his PhD, but
he's done Advanced Research and

1099
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:07,280
and advanced study graduate
study in in physics.

1100
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:09,560
You know, I think he does.
I think he's in.

1101
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:10,840
Does he have APHD?
Yeah.

1102
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:13,880
In in nuclear physics, yeah.
OK so he does have a PhD.

1103
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:14,800
Nuclear physics.
OK good.

1104
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:17,760
So so he's he's a he's a genuine
you know PhD in physics.

1105
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:24,960
And I think that that his he's
trying to use quantum theory

1106
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:29,240
because sort sort of quantum
ideas are foundational in in in

1107
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:30,880
what he's trying trying to
build.

1108
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:37,600
And from my point of view again
the high energy theoretical

1109
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:42,320
physicists in the last 20 years
are telling us that not only is

1110
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:46,240
space-time doomed, quantum
theory is doomed that they

1111
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:49,440
they're saying that quantum
theory will arise joined at the

1112
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:56,000
hip with space-time And and so
you might say, well, you know

1113
01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:58,760
there's all this weird stuff
about quantum mechanics.

1114
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:01,200
There's the no cloning theorem.
You you you can't clone quantum

1115
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:02,880
bits.
There's superposition.

1116
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:05,640
There's entanglement.
This is all weird, weird stuff

1117
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:08,600
and and this this is surely
showing us something deeper

1118
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:12,360
about, you know maybe a
conscious reality beyond

1119
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:18,160
space-time.
And the answer appears that from

1120
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,440
the work of Chris Fuchs on
quantum Bayesianism and and

1121
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:26,880
Roberts Beckins, his toy model
of of quantum physics.

1122
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:31,160
All of those weirdnesses of
quantum theory, no cloning

1123
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:34,360
theorem, superposition,
entanglement, all that stuff is

1124
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:38,040
simply a symptom of incomplete
information.

1125
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:41,680
If you have incomplete
information about the state of a

1126
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:44,640
system, those those all follow
as theorems.

1127
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:50,880
Well, when I say that space-time
is a headset, that means

1128
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:54,040
incomplete information.
Your headset is there to chop

1129
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:56,200
down the information.
That's the whole point of an

1130
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:59,160
interface is to it's just too
complicated out there.

1131
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:02,760
So let's dumb it down Well so
quantum mechanics in all the

1132
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:05,760
weirdness of quantum mechanics
is merely a symptom of the fact

1133
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:10,560
that space-time is doomed.
So it's it's not going to give

1134
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,120
us.
So quantum theory by itself is

1135
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:15,200
not going to take us outside
space-time.

1136
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:19,360
Quantum theory has its weirdness
is because it's tied to the

1137
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:22,080
limits of space-time.
So what's the difference between

1138
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:26,680
my approach and and and Tom's is
and and most by the way most

1139
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:29,760
people who are trying to use
some kind of modern physics to

1140
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:34,840
do some kind of exploration of
of consciousness they're tied to

1141
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:40,240
many of our arts Quantum is it
right And and and I'm saying not

1142
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:44,040
if you believe the high energy
theoretical physicists it's not

1143
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:48,080
it it's going to arise from
deeper structures and and and by

1144
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:52,440
the way it's not a hand wave so
they found like the amplitude

1145
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:56,120
hedron.
Yes, is the structure outside of

1146
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:57,840
space-time.
It's a real structure, It's

1147
01:03:57,840 --> 01:03:59,160
published, you can go read about
it.

1148
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:04,400
Its volumes give you the
scattering amplitudes of real

1149
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,880
processes in in space-time, much
easier than doing Feynman

1150
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:10,880
diagrams in space-time.
Hundreds of pages of Feynman

1151
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,440
diagrams, two or three turn into
two or three terms.

1152
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:17,960
You can do by hand and there are
no Hilbert spaces to be seen

1153
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,720
anywhere in the amplitude hedron
and therefore there is no

1154
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:23,800
quantum theory and and the
physics like Nymar, Kahnihamed

1155
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:25,880
and these guys who were doing
this are very very clear.

1156
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:30,520
There is no quantum theory here.
This is beyond space-time and

1157
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:34,200
quantum theory unitarity which
is you know one of the key

1158
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:36,080
things we can talk about
unitarity.

1159
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:38,680
I mean there are there are some
who argue that unitarity is not

1160
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:42,040
essential to quantum theory but
most physicists say it it is

1161
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:48,960
Unitarity and locality are are
products of this thing but

1162
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:51,560
they're not built into the thing
they they can give it to you in

1163
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:55,640
the projection but they are they
are outside of space-time and

1164
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:59,840
they're outside of quantum
theory so so it's you can see

1165
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:05,720
that the difference maybe at A
at some level Tom and I are our

1166
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:08,520
concepts are similar but the
spirit in which we're doing

1167
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:12,280
things is very very different.
I'm saying I'm, I'm letting go

1168
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:15,120
of quantum theory entirely.
I'm letting go of space-time

1169
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:17,360
entirely.
And I feel like that Tom is

1170
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:20,280
still saying let me use the
tools of quantum theory and and

1171
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:24,440
the most advanced physics we
have of of space-time to get my

1172
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:28,400
model of consciousness.
And I'm saying we really have to

1173
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:30,600
jump outside of the headset
altogether.

1174
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:33,920
Yes.
No, I agree with you because I

1175
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,000
found that question quite
redundant in the sense that

1176
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:38,600
there are clear differences in
the way you guys approach it.

1177
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:41,720
I think where you guys do start
to sort of become similar is

1178
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:44,840
when it starts becoming a
virtual reality and when and

1179
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:45,960
when you start talking about
that.

1180
01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:48,760
But then I have another question
from someone and this question

1181
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:52,360
is directed at the both of us
actually for critique for the

1182
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:55,720
two of us, it's in our last
conversation and conscious

1183
01:05:55,720 --> 01:06:00,040
agents and the subatomic world.
Tev, Tev, you and Don.

1184
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:05,640
Do not define information and
this should so the person's

1185
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:07,440
basically.
It's a very lengthy comment goes

1186
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:11,520
on to say that we didn't clearly
define the term information and

1187
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:15,640
since your the work eventually
goes so much into a sort of a

1188
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:19,280
virtual reality, a sort of
matrix simulation, information

1189
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:22,480
becomes a keyword here.
Do we Should we clarify that for

1190
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:29,560
this listener just to make sure
they understand right I I used

1191
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:32,640
Shannon information as if so
people who've studied

1192
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:36,600
information theory.
If I have it's it's it's all

1193
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:39,840
about probabilities and and it's
basically if something has

1194
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:44,640
probability P then it's minus
log P is so Shannon information.

1195
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:48,800
Now I've been and then when I
use entropy I'm using the

1196
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:52,040
standard you know Shannon notion
of entropy from information

1197
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:58,400
theory so so this is I'm just
using standard and and standard

1198
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:04,440
information theoretic stuff.
I I've explored Solace entropy

1199
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:07,720
so there's there are
generalizations of Shannon

1200
01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:10,720
entropy that that and and some
arguments for this so I'm I've

1201
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:14,240
been exploring them but I
haven't used them yet and I if

1202
01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:19,360
I'm forced to I I may there are
arguments for for showing that

1203
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:22,000
that the notion of entropy
that's used in in Shannon

1204
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:25,080
information theory may not be as
general as we need in certain

1205
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:29,160
cases and and there are more and
one is called solace entropy I

1206
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:33,000
think so so I am playing with
that but but but in in my

1207
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:36,480
conversations with you when I've
said entropy or or or or

1208
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:38,560
information it's Shannon.
OK, good.

1209
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:46,240
The next one is if we're just
avatars within this virtual

1210
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:49,680
reality.
What is the concept of

1211
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:52,200
procreation?
What what purpose does this

1212
01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:54,640
serve in the creation of other
avatars?

1213
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:57,320
And does this even work inside
of space-time?

1214
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:02,240
Right.
So what?

1215
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:06,400
What's what's interesting is
that from this point of view,

1216
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:11,640
our headset gives us certain
portals into the deep

1217
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:13,520
consciousness beyond.
That's what the headset's for

1218
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:18,240
too.
So right now I like Tevin Icon

1219
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:22,000
and my headset is giving me a
portal into Kevin's

1220
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:24,200
consciousness or that that that
projection of the one

1221
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:26,439
consciousness, the the Kevin
projection of the of the one

1222
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:30,439
consciousness.
So we know that our headset does

1223
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:33,399
give us portals into
consciousness and the question

1224
01:08:33,399 --> 01:08:37,960
is what technologies might there
be that we could use to create

1225
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,520
new portals into consciousness,
right.

1226
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:43,520
Well, we have one technology
that we know and that is having

1227
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:47,080
babies that is that's one
technology for opening up new

1228
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:49,720
portals into consciousness.
So.

1229
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:55,479
So why would from.
So there are a couple of

1230
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:57,960
questions related to this.
So why would the one

1231
01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:01,240
consciousness use this
procreation kind of approach

1232
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:05,439
toward toward toward you know,
doing this.

1233
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:10,840
And I would say that it's first
I should say, I don't know.

1234
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:12,240
But but I'll give you some
ideas.

1235
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:13,240
Right.
Right.

1236
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:17,880
Humility is, is, is required at
every step of this, right, until

1237
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:20,120
we have a scientific theory
where we're making predictions,

1238
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:22,359
you know, disclaimers
everywhere.

1239
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:26,319
But at some point I think we'll,
we'll be able to reverse

1240
01:09:26,319 --> 01:09:28,680
engineer the headset and
understand this notion of Portal

1241
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:30,040
that I'm talking about quite
precisely.

1242
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:33,800
And we'll understand a little
bit more how procreation works

1243
01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:36,840
in terms of booting up new, new
new portals.

1244
01:09:37,319 --> 01:09:39,240
And we'll be able to build
artificial portals.

1245
01:09:39,319 --> 01:09:42,200
We'll we'll get to technology to
build artificial portals to the

1246
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:44,359
consciousness behind.
We'll we'll actually understand

1247
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:48,000
what kind of networking of
conscious agents is required to

1248
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:50,840
effectively bridge into our
interface into our into our

1249
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:54,520
common headset.
So but but at the top level, why

1250
01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:57,040
is the one doing this?
It goes back to the what we

1251
01:09:57,040 --> 01:09:59,880
talked about before, which is
the one is trying to to know

1252
01:09:59,880 --> 01:10:03,080
itself and it can only know
itself by knowing what it's not.

1253
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:06,640
And so it.
So to keep having experiences

1254
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:09,720
and having and opening this up
to a sort of Multiplex of

1255
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:13,560
different experiences overall,
which goes into the other

1256
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:18,480
question that I have here, which
is did in this framework then

1257
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:22,560
would dinosaurs and all sort of
extinct species and creatures

1258
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:26,040
fall into this sort of process?
Have these all been avatars as

1259
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:28,920
part of an experience of the One
of the One?

1260
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:31,640
Exactly they would be.
And you might say, well, why did

1261
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:34,640
the, you know, the one do that
and then throw them away.

1262
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:37,280
And you know what, what a waste
of time.

1263
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:41,760
And and that gets the whole
notion of time itself is an

1264
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:45,840
artifact of our interface.
So in our so.

1265
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:51,360
So a lot of our intuitions are
tied to artifacts of our

1266
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:54,480
headset.
So in our Markovian dynamics,

1267
01:10:54,480 --> 01:10:59,040
subconscious agents, the
dynamics need not have

1268
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:03,160
increasing entropy.
There need not be an arrow of

1269
01:11:03,160 --> 01:11:06,000
time in the dynamics outside of
our headset.

1270
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:11,040
But it's a theorem that if you
take this Markovian dynamics

1271
01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:13,400
from which the entropy is
constant, it doesn't increase

1272
01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:16,920
and you make a projection by
conditional probability.

1273
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:18,240
So you're losing some
information.

1274
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:21,160
You you you see the dynamics,
you see a dynamical system, but

1275
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:24,040
it's it's lost some information
over the the deeper dynamics.

1276
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:29,280
The projected dynamical system
will have increasing entropy,

1277
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:33,400
and so it will have an arrow of
time as a not as an insight into

1278
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:36,440
reality.
It's it's not an insight, it's

1279
01:11:36,480 --> 01:11:40,080
entirely an artifact of the loss
of information.

1280
01:11:41,440 --> 01:11:49,240
And so, and by the way, time is
the fundamental limited resource

1281
01:11:49,240 --> 01:11:52,440
in evolution.
If I don't get food in time, I

1282
01:11:52,440 --> 01:11:54,840
die.
If I don't mate in time, I die.

1283
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:58,040
If I don't run away from that
dinosaur in time, all be eaten.

1284
01:11:58,360 --> 01:12:00,680
So, so time is the fundamental
limited resource.

1285
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:04,400
And what I'm saying is that time
is an illusion.

1286
01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:11,720
It's an artifact of the headset.
So the entire so so on the one

1287
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:15,640
hand I I've published papers on
evolution and evolutionary game

1288
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:17,840
theory right?
I, I, I love the theory of

1289
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:20,120
evolution.
It's an incredibly powerful

1290
01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:22,000
theory.
Evolutionary game theory is is

1291
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:25,960
beautiful, and inside the
headset there is no better

1292
01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:28,920
theory of biological organisms
than evolution by natural

1293
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:30,160
selection.
It's brilliant.

1294
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:38,080
That's being said, the theory
itself, all of it, is an

1295
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:41,360
artifact of the projection.
None of it is deeply true.

1296
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:46,880
It's the only true ENR headset,
and for understanding dynamics

1297
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:49,200
in our headset, there is no
better scientific tool than

1298
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:53,800
evolution by natural selection.
And I've used it, but but our

1299
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:56,920
mathematics tells us that the
whole thing is an illusion.

1300
01:12:57,280 --> 01:12:59,200
So and so I should maybe stop
there.

1301
01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:03,080
There is a question some people
ask me which is I.

1302
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:05,600
You know, I use evolution to
show that we don't see reality

1303
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:06,800
as it is.
But then that means that

1304
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:09,560
evolution wasn't true.
So how am I not shooting myself

1305
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:11,800
on the foot?
So if we if, if, if we have time

1306
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:13,800
at the end, we can go after.
Why I'm not shooting myself on

1307
01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:18,160
the foot.
So Don within this headset and

1308
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:21,000
having this headset on can I
take it off?

1309
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:26,760
I think yes.
How?

1310
01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:31,000
And I think in the meditation
process when you when you

1311
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:37,520
literally and and most myself
included are not great

1312
01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:40,240
meditators, but.
I try my bit.

1313
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:43,960
I hear about, yeah, I try a bit.
But I I do hear about people

1314
01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:50,360
that that I trust that that go
to places where you you you let

1315
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:52,840
go of the headset for a while
you know you're just literally

1316
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:57,200
let go death the near death
experiences that people report

1317
01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:03,960
you know the Raymond Moody I
guess and and the tunnel the

1318
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:09,040
light tunnel and life review and
the common thing I'm not saying

1319
01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:14,360
that that's that's right but but
it's suggest suggestive that and

1320
01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:17,360
it certainly fits in with the
ontology of this conscious agent

1321
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:20,440
dynamics that that that I'm
working on that in some sense

1322
01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:25,600
everything that I perceive is
just a headset and death is just

1323
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:30,280
taking the headset off that's
all it is is you know we I I

1324
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:33,320
tried that but you know if
you're playing a virtual reality

1325
01:14:33,320 --> 01:14:38,480
game and you believe and and
it's a it's you've got an avatar

1326
01:14:38,480 --> 01:14:42,160
in the game you so it's the
first person perspective in the

1327
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:45,240
if you identify with that avatar
if you really believe that that

1328
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:46,960
avatar is you.
You're going to be nervous and

1329
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:49,200
and scared and everything that
happens to the avatar is going

1330
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:50,560
to be.
But if you're if you don't

1331
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:54,960
identify with the avatar, you
can enjoy the game and if you

1332
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:58,760
get, if your avatar gets shot
up, who cares, you just take the

1333
01:14:58,760 --> 01:15:02,240
headset off And so.
So I think that it is possible,

1334
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:06,320
maybe in meditation, and Hoffman
hasn't done it, so I'll just

1335
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:10,280
tell you up front, I've not gone
there, but I've meditated quite

1336
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:12,880
a bit so.
So maybe I'm just a, you know,

1337
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:16,040
spiritual flunky who knows
science.

1338
01:15:16,080 --> 01:15:19,120
Flunky and spiritual flunky
Science flunky and spiritual

1339
01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:25,400
flunky.
People that I trust seem to have

1340
01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:28,200
had those experiences and and my
own theory says it's possible

1341
01:15:28,480 --> 01:15:30,320
even though I I myself haven't
experienced it.

1342
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:33,600
Let's say within those kernels
of or or or from.

1343
01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:37,320
From the physics from this, from
your mathematical side, let's

1344
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:40,160
say you leave the headset now
would you have to 1st go via

1345
01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:44,640
each pathway in order to get to
sort of the one or like would

1346
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:46,200
you see someone else between
them?

1347
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:48,520
Yeah, I'm not sure if you, if
you understand what I'm trying

1348
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:50,920
to say.
A really great question and I've

1349
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:53,920
really wondered about that
myself because there are some

1350
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:57,600
spiritual traditions which talk
about me and I was yeah, I was I

1351
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:01,040
was some Tutu warrior in in my
previous life or something like

1352
01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:04,520
that you know and and I.
So I've wondered if there's any

1353
01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:07,360
way that I could make sense of
that in my my framework of of

1354
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:10,320
conscious agents.
Is there some kind of like if I

1355
01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:13,520
take the network ideas seriously
are there parts of the network

1356
01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:18,800
that I could say that are sort
of closer to this particular

1357
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:22,040
headset, the the Hoffman headset
Maybe there are other headsets

1358
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:24,720
that are closer to that headset
and that's it.

1359
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:30,160
May it may be possible that
there and even though ultimately

1360
01:16:30,160 --> 01:16:33,920
time is an illusion it it it
could be like we might be able

1361
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:37,920
to explain that illusion in
terms of projections of these

1362
01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:41,080
headsets and so forth.
So, so I can't rule out the

1363
01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:47,400
possibility that our theory will
eventually take these non

1364
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:53,200
precise ideas and make them
mathematically precise and and

1365
01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:55,840
maybe even interesting.
So, so I can't.

1366
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:59,480
I can't rule that out.
That's that's very fascinating.

1367
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:01,840
It's a that's that can be quite
a rabbit hole to go down

1368
01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:03,760
through.
Yeah.

1369
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:07,200
Do you think that, well, another
thing that could lead to is is

1370
01:17:07,200 --> 01:17:09,400
sort of reincarnative
experiences in general.

1371
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:11,880
I mean, let's say you just you
sort of leave that headset and

1372
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:14,240
maybe just enter another one
altogether.

1373
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:18,360
I mean it, it opens up the door
to sort of all those spiritual

1374
01:17:18,360 --> 01:17:22,040
claims that let's say Hindus or
Buddhists sort of have.

1375
01:17:22,440 --> 01:17:25,560
It kind of provides a scientific
grounding for these beliefs in a

1376
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:30,320
sense that that that's right.
It's it's basically the the what

1377
01:17:30,320 --> 01:17:33,240
I was saying earlier is is what
what you're saying is basically

1378
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:38,880
the one looks through the
headset of an amoeba and of a

1379
01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:44,400
virus and of a bacterium and and
you know of of Hoffman and Tevin

1380
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:47,360
and and and every possible
headset a cat.

1381
01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:50,240
They're all, and they're all
legitimate ways of the one

1382
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:52,960
looking at itself and and
enjoying that view and then

1383
01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:56,680
recognizing I'm not that I'm
more than that.

1384
01:17:57,800 --> 01:18:00,600
And don't How would you
differentiate between something

1385
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:03,240
that's an avatar and something
that isn't so, like a virus, for

1386
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:06,600
example.
We're not a lot of doctors kind

1387
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:08,000
of even world people can't even
agree with it.

1388
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:12,960
It's life, living or dead.
At what point is an avatar an

1389
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:16,360
avatar in this framework?
Would you say what is the, what

1390
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:19,560
is the minimal amount needed to
be an avatar?

1391
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:22,880
That's that's a great question,
because it really exposes an

1392
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:27,920
important concept here, And that
is in this framework, the

1393
01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:31,560
distinction between living and
non living is not principled,

1394
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:36,720
just as the distinction between
conscious and not conscious is

1395
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:40,960
not a principal distinction.
The distinction that we make

1396
01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:44,600
between living and non living is
an artifact, entirely an

1397
01:18:44,600 --> 01:18:46,520
artifact of the limits of our
interface.

1398
01:18:48,480 --> 01:18:52,440
OK, it's not principle.
So I'm always interacting with

1399
01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:55,920
living consciousness.
I'm always interacting with it

1400
01:18:56,480 --> 01:19:01,600
and my headset in is dumbing
things down because I'm not.

1401
01:19:02,160 --> 01:19:03,480
That's what I'm doing.
I'm looking at myself to a

1402
01:19:03,480 --> 01:19:06,720
projection.
So when I see a rock, it it's

1403
01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:09,320
fair enough within my headset to
say it's not alive.

1404
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:12,200
It's it's perfectly fine.
You know, for everyday practical

1405
01:19:12,200 --> 01:19:14,080
purposes, I'm not going to try
to eat the rock and so forth.

1406
01:19:14,080 --> 01:19:15,640
I'm not going to worry about the
rock chasing me.

1407
01:19:15,640 --> 01:19:20,360
And so for practical purposes, I
can say it's it's not alive, but

1408
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:21,760
it.
But the distinction is not

1409
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,920
principled.
I'm always when I interact with

1410
01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:29,360
the rock, I'm interacting
through a headset interface

1411
01:19:29,360 --> 01:19:31,880
icon, namely the rock.
I'm interacting with

1412
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:34,680
consciousness.
I'm not saying the rock is

1413
01:19:34,680 --> 01:19:37,040
conscious, so this is not
panpsychism of that kind.

1414
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:40,280
The rock is not conscious.
The rock like the zoom pixels,

1415
01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:42,160
right, The the zoom pixels are
just zoom pixels.

1416
01:19:42,160 --> 01:19:44,800
They're they're not conscious or
unconscious, they're just zoom

1417
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:46,800
pixels.
The rock is just a rock.

1418
01:19:47,280 --> 01:19:50,800
What am I interacting with?
A living consciousness Always.

1419
01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:59,360
So now my my interface can give
me more or less information

1420
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:03,280
about someone else's interface
with with with other humans.

1421
01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:06,880
I know first hand what a human
interface is like.

1422
01:20:08,640 --> 01:20:11,800
This interface is so I have some
some idea what it's like to be

1423
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:14,000
you and then you as a doctor.
If you're dealing with patients

1424
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:17,560
with psychological problems, you
have some insight, whereas if if

1425
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:20,800
you're dealing with a a mouse.
You might not trust your

1426
01:20:20,800 --> 01:20:23,200
insights from the human
experience in terms of

1427
01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:24,880
understanding the psychology of
a mouse, right?

1428
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:27,600
You you just don't have the
insights into their headset that

1429
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:31,920
you have into the human headset.
Well, so when I see something

1430
01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:36,640
that I call a virus, I have some
hint in my interface of

1431
01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:39,600
something that that's like
alive.

1432
01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:45,000
But my my interface is giving me
almost no information about

1433
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:50,280
another interface.
So so interfaces have

1434
01:20:50,280 --> 01:20:52,840
information about other
interfaces that is more or less

1435
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:57,720
complete.
And so with a rock my knowledge

1436
01:20:57,720 --> 01:20:59,720
of interfaces has has basically
gone to 0.

1437
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:01,200
OK.
Yeah.

1438
01:21:01,200 --> 01:21:06,040
So, so that that's just beyond
that interfaces access at that

1439
01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:08,920
point.
That's exactly right.

1440
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:12,600
That also mine, by the way.
Things that look really stupid

1441
01:21:12,600 --> 01:21:14,480
to us, like I see some worm
crawling around.

1442
01:21:14,480 --> 01:21:15,640
It looks like really, really
stupid.

1443
01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:20,200
Hey, for all I know what I'm
interacting with there.

1444
01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:23,920
If I could actually, if I could
get inside and understand what

1445
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:26,560
it was experiencing, what it
might, it might.

1446
01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:29,240
I might just want to fall down
on my knees and and worship it

1447
01:21:29,240 --> 01:21:31,840
because it's so much smarter
than me and and brilliant than

1448
01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:35,280
me.
Again, what I can see about

1449
01:21:35,280 --> 01:21:39,880
others is just due to the
limitations of my own headset.

1450
01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:42,800
And there what they are in
themselves and what they're

1451
01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:48,360
experiencing could possibly blow
me away if I if I ever so so you

1452
01:21:48,360 --> 01:21:51,400
can see this, this, this point
of view leads to all sorts of

1453
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:54,760
radical devastations.
It took me decades to even

1454
01:21:54,920 --> 01:21:58,880
understand what what it could
mean because I'm so used to

1455
01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:03,560
thinking inside the headset.
I know it's very, very mind

1456
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:06,000
bending.
It's it's almost like sort of a

1457
01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:07,760
taking the blue pill at some
point.

1458
01:22:08,200 --> 01:22:12,480
And like, legitimately, it's
sort of leaving reality

1459
01:22:12,480 --> 01:22:14,360
altogether.
Because there's someone as

1460
01:22:14,360 --> 01:22:17,480
people, two people who firmly
love science, so ingrained

1461
01:22:17,480 --> 01:22:19,760
within it.
And if someone just has to pop

1462
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:22,360
in right now and and just shadow
and watch us, I mean, they'll

1463
01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:23,640
think we're completely out of
it.

1464
01:22:25,200 --> 01:22:28,760
This conversation is completely
out there and all we'll be on

1465
01:22:28,800 --> 01:22:31,560
all you you can think is that
you just haven't taken the blue

1466
01:22:31,560 --> 01:22:34,800
pill yet.
That that's right.

1467
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:40,080
But what's led me down this this
blue pill path is the the

1468
01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:42,800
mathematics and the science I've
been LED kicking and screaming

1469
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:46,160
the whole way.
I mean I but and and so I

1470
01:22:46,160 --> 01:22:49,560
understand when when anybody has
an objection I completely

1471
01:22:49,560 --> 01:22:52,480
understand I had that objection.
And the only reason I'm saying

1472
01:22:52,480 --> 01:22:55,160
what I'm saying is that I had to
go with the science.

1473
01:22:56,760 --> 01:23:00,520
It's just plain the fact that
our best science tells us that

1474
01:23:00,520 --> 01:23:03,000
space-time isn't fundamental.
And when you wrap your head

1475
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:06,120
around that space-time and
objects in space-time are not

1476
01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:08,800
fundamental.
That's what our best science

1477
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:12,040
when you that is the start of
the rabbit hole and that's not

1478
01:23:12,200 --> 01:23:16,400
an LSD induced rabbit hole.
That is a scientific based

1479
01:23:16,400 --> 01:23:17,640
rabbit hole.
And I've been chasing the

1480
01:23:17,640 --> 01:23:20,840
mathematics and going wherever
and that's what you have to do

1481
01:23:20,840 --> 01:23:24,160
as a scientist.
You have to be intrepid and be

1482
01:23:24,160 --> 01:23:28,400
willing to let go of Flat Earth,
be willing to let go of Newton,

1483
01:23:28,640 --> 01:23:29,960
be willing to let go of
Einstein.

1484
01:23:29,960 --> 01:23:32,680
We'd be willing to let go of
quantum mechanics and be willing

1485
01:23:32,680 --> 01:23:35,200
to let go of space-time.
You've got to be willing to let

1486
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:39,800
go of all of it and go into it.
Yeah.

1487
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:44,120
At what point you mentioned that
the, the one I mean you you

1488
01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:46,120
spoke about this earlier and I
think we should have at some

1489
01:23:46,120 --> 01:23:48,520
point round back to that and
just touch on it more because it

1490
01:23:48,520 --> 01:23:51,600
seems like quite some fun work
that's happening at this very

1491
01:23:51,600 --> 01:23:53,920
moment.
But you you mentioned that it at

1492
01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:55,920
that point you and Bernardo
just.

1493
01:23:56,560 --> 01:23:57,680
Diverge a little.
What?

1494
01:23:58,120 --> 01:24:00,240
At which point exactly does it
happen?

1495
01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:04,480
Why is it that your version of
the one in this trace chain is

1496
01:24:04,480 --> 01:24:08,800
something that would make you
two guys clash in your views?

1497
01:24:10,560 --> 01:24:15,840
Well I'm not sure that we would
clash too much but but I'll I'll

1498
01:24:15,880 --> 01:24:19,920
I'll I'll say where we might
have some some differences and

1499
01:24:19,920 --> 01:24:22,600
and again you know Bernardo's a
brilliant and a good friend and

1500
01:24:22,600 --> 01:24:25,520
and if if there's something
where we differ philosophically

1501
01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:27,800
I I defer to him because he's
he's a real philosopher.

1502
01:24:27,800 --> 01:24:35,840
I'm not right but Bernardo has
recently been saying that there

1503
01:24:35,840 --> 01:24:38,120
is a way of interpreting
integrated information theory

1504
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:42,120
that would be compatible with
analytic idealism.

1505
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:52,720
His his his view and and I I
I'll I'll look forward to having

1506
01:24:52,760 --> 01:24:55,680
a conversation with Bernardo
about this because you know he's

1507
01:24:55,680 --> 01:24:58,680
he's brilliant and I'll and so
I'll probably stand corrected

1508
01:24:58,680 --> 01:25:02,120
with what I'm about to say but
but it seems to me that that

1509
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:07,240
integrated information theory
does assume that there's a

1510
01:25:07,240 --> 01:25:10,400
substrate and they're very
explicit I mean one of their in

1511
01:25:10,400 --> 01:25:12,880
the four their IIT 4 point O
paper.

1512
01:25:13,360 --> 01:25:15,880
I mean I I looked and and
substrate has mentioned dozens

1513
01:25:15,880 --> 01:25:18,360
and dozens of times so not just
you know it's not a minor thing

1514
01:25:18,520 --> 01:25:21,400
substrate is is front and
center.

1515
01:25:23,160 --> 01:25:27,200
Now if I gave you a theory of
space-time and I said but

1516
01:25:27,200 --> 01:25:32,920
there's a substrate to say
space-time then then I would

1517
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:36,000
assume from that that you're
saying that space-time isn't

1518
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:38,600
fundamental because there's a
substrate to it right.

1519
01:25:38,920 --> 01:25:42,280
So if, if, if, if I if
space-time is fundamental, then

1520
01:25:42,280 --> 01:25:44,400
I'll just talk about space-time.
I don't need to talk about

1521
01:25:44,400 --> 01:25:46,440
anything deeper than that, no
substrate to it.

1522
01:25:47,040 --> 01:25:50,440
So if I'm talking about a theory
of consciousness and I want to

1523
01:25:50,440 --> 01:25:52,960
say consciousness is
fundamental, well then I don't

1524
01:25:52,960 --> 01:25:54,880
need to really be talking about
any substrates.

1525
01:25:55,080 --> 01:25:58,360
I mean consciousness is the
final substrate in that theory.

1526
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:00,680
So.
So this is what I would like to

1527
01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:03,720
you talk with Bernardo about and
I'm sure I'm sure he'll have

1528
01:26:03,720 --> 01:26:07,000
some something that will, you
know, make me think deep.

1529
01:26:07,280 --> 01:26:10,880
But so I'm so, so with all you
know, he's a good friend and

1530
01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:12,760
he's brilliant, so I'll be
interested to do it.

1531
01:26:12,760 --> 01:26:21,120
But my attitude right now is a
theory of consciousness that's

1532
01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:24,320
scientific and in the spirit of
analytic idealism.

1533
01:26:25,520 --> 01:26:27,600
Doesn't need any substrate for
the consciousness.

1534
01:26:28,080 --> 01:26:32,480
You just pause it, the the
nature of that consciousness.

1535
01:26:32,560 --> 01:26:36,160
And no, you don't pause it and
you substrate, and you don't

1536
01:26:36,160 --> 01:26:42,600
need to pause it.
Some combinatorial properties of

1537
01:26:42,600 --> 01:26:46,040
that substrate, like the
integrated information, causal

1538
01:26:46,040 --> 01:26:51,160
properties of that substrate
that quantify how much

1539
01:26:51,160 --> 01:26:54,480
consciousness there is.
Consciousness is conscious.

1540
01:26:54,480 --> 01:27:00,480
You don't quantify this there.
You can quantify how much access

1541
01:27:00,480 --> 01:27:02,280
you might have to the
consciousness through a

1542
01:27:02,280 --> 01:27:04,640
particular headset.
But consciousness itself is just

1543
01:27:04,640 --> 01:27:07,400
consciousness.
It it is fundamental and so so

1544
01:27:07,400 --> 01:27:11,560
to to so in IIT there's always
this thing we talked about

1545
01:27:11,560 --> 01:27:15,920
earlier that these circuits
there is no consciousness in

1546
01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:18,040
them and these brain circuits
and these circuits maybe they do

1547
01:27:18,040 --> 01:27:22,800
have consciousness.
The whole thing of assigning

1548
01:27:22,800 --> 01:27:25,560
consciousness to substrates,
neural substrates in this case

1549
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:29,040
is wrong headed.
It is is is just completely

1550
01:27:29,040 --> 01:27:32,600
wrong.
So so that's where again, I'm

1551
01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:35,080
I'm sure I'm going to learn a
lot when I talk with Bernardo

1552
01:27:35,080 --> 01:27:37,680
about this, I I really just
learned about his views in the

1553
01:27:37,680 --> 01:27:40,440
last couple three last month or
so on on on this.

1554
01:27:40,440 --> 01:27:42,520
So that's why I've had a chance
to really talk with him.

1555
01:27:43,160 --> 01:27:45,920
I also, it also called me by
storm because I'm I'm scheduled

1556
01:27:45,920 --> 01:27:51,640
to chat to him I think in a in a
month's time and and we spoke

1557
01:27:52,200 --> 01:27:55,520
about a few months ago and when
we spoke it I had no idea that

1558
01:27:55,520 --> 01:27:58,760
it would.
But I also had no clue that he

1559
01:27:58,760 --> 01:28:02,360
would go down that year either.
It was quite strange to me as

1560
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:04,800
well and I'm curious and I'm
keen to ask him as well.

1561
01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:07,360
Yeah, I'm gonna ask.
I'll ask him as well.

1562
01:28:07,440 --> 01:28:10,680
I'm sure he'll have something
really good to say and I'll try

1563
01:28:10,680 --> 01:28:12,920
to push back on this if you
don't need a substrate and see

1564
01:28:12,920 --> 01:28:15,440
what he says.
I'll I'll try the same and I'll

1565
01:28:15,440 --> 01:28:18,240
also let him if if I speak to
him first I'll I'll I'll let him

1566
01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:21,440
know without causing any sort of
debate.

1567
01:28:21,440 --> 01:28:25,600
But I Bernardo loves to debate
by the way he he he prefers when

1568
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:29,080
when someone actively debates in
a respectful manner, though in a

1569
01:28:29,200 --> 01:28:29,920
respectful manner.
Right?

1570
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:31,560
Exactly.
As long as it's respectful, he

1571
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:33,920
loves, he loves the debate, he
he enjoys it.

1572
01:28:33,920 --> 01:28:35,480
He he actually told me the last
time.

1573
01:28:35,920 --> 01:28:39,360
Will you please actually be more
more stern and strict with the

1574
01:28:39,360 --> 01:28:42,560
questions?
Well, well, I I like sharp

1575
01:28:42,560 --> 01:28:45,560
discussion in in the sense that
that that's intellectually on

1576
01:28:45,560 --> 01:28:48,760
point and and and deep having it
be personal.

1577
01:28:48,760 --> 01:28:50,360
I don't.
I'm not interested in having it

1578
01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:51,960
personal.
That's at all.

1579
01:28:52,120 --> 01:28:53,320
Me neither.
I told him that I'm just.

1580
01:28:53,320 --> 01:28:55,880
I was trying to just be nice and
relaxed for the podcast.

1581
01:28:56,640 --> 01:28:58,760
I did try and make it a nice
calm environment.

1582
01:28:59,880 --> 01:29:01,960
None.
But I'll just say that he's

1583
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:05,920
brilliant mathematically and
I've I've, I've asked him to

1584
01:29:06,040 --> 01:29:08,520
join us and work on the
mathematical side of this and I

1585
01:29:08,960 --> 01:29:10,880
I want to do that.
I would love to get Bernardo

1586
01:29:10,880 --> 01:29:12,880
because he's got the
mathematical jobs to actually

1587
01:29:12,880 --> 01:29:15,480
work with us on this sort of
conscious agents and show

1588
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:18,400
analytical idealism through the
through the math of conscious

1589
01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:20,600
agents, but we'll see.
I mean, yeah, I mean, to get a

1590
01:29:20,600 --> 01:29:24,560
PhD in engineering and
philosophy, you must, you must

1591
01:29:24,600 --> 01:29:27,040
know your stuff there.
There must be something going on

1592
01:29:27,040 --> 01:29:29,240
there that's that's you're able
to kind of bring these two

1593
01:29:29,240 --> 01:29:32,160
fields together and give you and
give people quite a unique

1594
01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:36,080
perspective at least.
On reality, he is unique.

1595
01:29:36,760 --> 01:29:39,360
Yeah, I think he's, he's very
busy with the Essentia

1596
01:29:39,360 --> 01:29:40,920
Foundation.
So I see them doing quite a lot

1597
01:29:40,920 --> 01:29:44,720
of work lately.
So probably, just like you,

1598
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:46,080
probably a lot of it on your
plates.

1599
01:29:46,680 --> 01:29:51,480
Don in this virtual reality, in
this reality, is there anything

1600
01:29:51,480 --> 01:29:54,480
you want to call it?
By the way, do you prefer

1601
01:29:54,480 --> 01:29:57,720
calling it the virtual reality?
What do you prefer calling it?

1602
01:29:57,880 --> 01:30:00,200
I just I think headset is the
easiest for most people.

1603
01:30:00,720 --> 01:30:03,680
So space-time, it's just a
headset, you know I think that

1604
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:06,440
that I say that because it's
everybody can sort of relate to

1605
01:30:06,440 --> 01:30:09,480
that.
OK, within this headset, how

1606
01:30:09,480 --> 01:30:12,880
does this headset account for, I
mean, we know time now based on

1607
01:30:12,880 --> 01:30:16,320
this is an illusion, but then
how do we count for the

1608
01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:19,040
beginning, let's say, let's say
The Big Bang within this

1609
01:30:19,040 --> 01:30:22,720
headset?
How is that conceptualized

1610
01:30:22,840 --> 01:30:27,640
within this framework?
Well, so the the time itself of

1611
01:30:27,640 --> 01:30:30,800
The Big Bang is an illusion.
So what we have is a Markov

1612
01:30:30,800 --> 01:30:33,480
dynamics in which the entropy is
not increasing.

1613
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:40,160
Then we we say so we have this
big Markov chain, there is no

1614
01:30:40,160 --> 01:30:41,880
time.
But now let's look at it from

1615
01:30:41,880 --> 01:30:44,400
perspective.
Let's let's do a trace chain.

1616
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:47,480
So I talked about, we started
off talking about, so let's take

1617
01:30:47,480 --> 01:30:49,040
a big chain, let's do a trace
chain.

1618
01:30:49,040 --> 01:30:52,960
Well we've lost information.
Well, so now we're going to, you

1619
01:30:52,960 --> 01:30:57,560
know, we're going to induce an
arrow of time and it's going to

1620
01:30:57,560 --> 01:31:00,280
look, depending on which trace
chain you use, it might look

1621
01:31:00,280 --> 01:31:03,960
like The Big Bang and then, you
know, lifeless evolution of of

1622
01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:08,120
galaxies and stars and so forth
and then life and then

1623
01:31:08,120 --> 01:31:09,840
consciousness and the might look
like that.

1624
01:31:10,400 --> 01:31:14,720
But that's the entire story, is
an artifact of the projection,

1625
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:19,880
and it's not a deep insight.
It's it's it's fascinating

1626
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:22,760
because me trying to ask you
what happened before The Big

1627
01:31:22,760 --> 01:31:24,960
Bang is kind of like me.
Ask you what?

1628
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:29,440
May what happened before the one
or what?

1629
01:31:29,440 --> 01:31:33,960
What Is that something you're
even thinking about at any

1630
01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:36,160
point?
Well, absolutely.

1631
01:31:36,280 --> 01:31:37,680
And.
And by the way, I I should say

1632
01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:41,800
that what I was the the the
answer I just gave about the

1633
01:31:41,800 --> 01:31:46,080
projection and Big Bang just
being an artifact, I actually

1634
01:31:46,320 --> 01:31:50,400
want to actually do that.
I want to actually write down a

1635
01:31:50,400 --> 01:31:53,720
big Markovian kernel in which
the entropy is not increasing.

1636
01:31:54,480 --> 01:31:58,720
Choose a projection and then
show Wow when I look at it

1637
01:31:58,800 --> 01:32:01,280
through this projection, look at
the like I do get.

1638
01:32:01,280 --> 01:32:04,320
This weird thing seem to be
evolving and and growing.

1639
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:06,640
In other words, this is not a
hand wave.

1640
01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:09,760
I am proposing computational
model.

1641
01:32:10,280 --> 01:32:12,560
There is this.
There is a Markov dynamics

1642
01:32:13,000 --> 01:32:15,880
beyond space-time in which the
entropy is not increasing.

1643
01:32:16,480 --> 01:32:21,400
Take any projection of it where
by by conditional probability

1644
01:32:21,400 --> 01:32:23,000
you're you know like trace
chains or something like that

1645
01:32:25,080 --> 01:32:27,040
the the entropy will be
increasing.

1646
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:30,400
Study those study all the
different ways that that can

1647
01:32:30,400 --> 01:32:32,000
happen.
Our universe with The Big Bang

1648
01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:34,480
will just be one of the possible
kinds of ways that the universe.

1649
01:32:34,480 --> 01:32:37,560
So in other words we can study
cosmology from this point of

1650
01:32:37,560 --> 01:32:40,920
view and we can we can
understand, you know right now

1651
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:44,680
if you take space-time as
fundamental then the notion of

1652
01:32:44,680 --> 01:32:48,960
the The Big Bang and the
singularity is is an unsolvable

1653
01:32:48,960 --> 01:32:50,280
problem.
What do you do with it?

1654
01:32:51,440 --> 01:32:54,280
But if, you if, but if you
realize, Oh no, no, that that's

1655
01:32:54,280 --> 01:32:57,360
just a headset projection of a
deeper thing in which there is

1656
01:32:57,360 --> 01:33:00,200
no singularity.
I've erased the singularity.

1657
01:33:00,400 --> 01:33:03,520
That's what this mathematics is.
I've erased the singularity and

1658
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:06,280
showed you you get the
singularity because of a

1659
01:33:06,280 --> 01:33:09,480
projection, not because of the
deeper the truth of the deeper

1660
01:33:09,480 --> 01:33:10,960
reality.
So this is not so.

1661
01:33:10,960 --> 01:33:13,680
I I don't want people to think,
you know, it might have sound

1662
01:33:13,680 --> 01:33:16,360
like it was just a hand wave.
No, I'm offering a technical

1663
01:33:16,360 --> 01:33:21,600
computational program.
They're saying, yeah, exactly.

1664
01:33:21,600 --> 01:33:25,360
I mean that's, I mean that's the
biggest difference between a lot

1665
01:33:25,360 --> 01:33:29,760
of other idealist theorists is
that you're you're you're using

1666
01:33:29,760 --> 01:33:31,880
computational.
I mean you're using mathematics

1667
01:33:31,880 --> 01:33:35,680
and physics in a in a very
precise manner to try and show

1668
01:33:35,680 --> 01:33:36,720
people what you're talking
about.

1669
01:33:36,720 --> 01:33:40,120
I mean, conscious agents and the
subatomic world, you you came

1670
01:33:40,120 --> 01:33:43,920
with that very strategically
knowing that this is the core

1671
01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:47,000
layer of reality according to us
and the way we perceive it.

1672
01:33:47,440 --> 01:33:50,880
And that's why you guys want to
touch that base reality and you

1673
01:33:50,880 --> 01:33:53,040
said you don't want to go
straight for the neuron because

1674
01:33:53,040 --> 01:33:56,120
that that is a bit, it's a lot
harder, there's a lot, there's

1675
01:33:56,120 --> 01:33:58,440
probably a lot more that's going
to have to go into that.

1676
01:33:58,960 --> 01:34:01,800
Do you have a sort of a
hierarchy of what you think you

1677
01:34:01,800 --> 01:34:05,200
want to go after from the
subatomic wall?

1678
01:34:05,360 --> 01:34:07,880
I mean we just mentioned going
into cosmology at some point.

1679
01:34:08,240 --> 01:34:10,600
Anything in particular that
you're kind of taking these

1680
01:34:10,600 --> 01:34:14,560
maths into at some point or
spearheading into in the future?

1681
01:34:17,320 --> 01:34:21,480
Yes.
Right now what I'm working on is

1682
01:34:22,240 --> 01:34:27,560
a specific technical problem,
which is we've mapped A Markov

1683
01:34:27,640 --> 01:34:29,680
dynamics into decorated
permutations.

1684
01:34:30,720 --> 01:34:34,720
Physicists have mapped decorated
permutations of of positive

1685
01:34:34,720 --> 01:34:38,120
Grossmannians into scattering
amplitudes.

1686
01:34:38,320 --> 01:34:42,320
So I want to tie that whole
thing together.

1687
01:34:42,320 --> 01:34:45,920
So what I'm working on right now
is interfacing are decorated

1688
01:34:45,920 --> 01:34:48,480
permutations with the decorated
permutations and the gross

1689
01:34:48,480 --> 01:34:52,400
monions of the physicists.
I I I've got to get that map

1690
01:34:52,880 --> 01:34:56,240
absolutely precise.
So and I've been working on that

1691
01:34:56,240 --> 01:35:00,320
and I gave 2 proposals to my
colleagues in the last three

1692
01:35:00,320 --> 01:35:03,200
weeks.
And and they're both wrong but

1693
01:35:03,240 --> 01:35:04,760
they're both a piece of the
puzzle.

1694
01:35:05,200 --> 01:35:07,440
But I put them out.
I thought no, no, it's it's

1695
01:35:07,440 --> 01:35:09,880
wrong.
So so I'm work.

1696
01:35:09,880 --> 01:35:11,400
So I'm realizing I have to dig
deeper.

1697
01:35:11,400 --> 01:35:14,800
I'm gonna have to really study
these positive gross ammonians

1698
01:35:15,280 --> 01:35:18,120
more deeply and write down a
more serious.

1699
01:35:18,120 --> 01:35:19,720
So that's what I'm working on
right now.

1700
01:35:19,720 --> 01:35:23,600
Is is because I then want to be
able to.

1701
01:35:23,800 --> 01:35:27,760
But once once we have that, then
we can do our computational

1702
01:35:31,400 --> 01:35:33,840
experiment about quarks and
gluons.

1703
01:35:34,160 --> 01:35:37,200
We have to we have to show how
we can go all the way from the

1704
01:35:37,200 --> 01:35:39,400
dynamics of conscious agents
through the decorated

1705
01:35:39,400 --> 01:35:42,400
permutations to scattering
amplitudes and properties of

1706
01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:45,400
particles.
So I this that's why I'm focused

1707
01:35:45,400 --> 01:35:48,600
on this technical issue right
now Markov decorated

1708
01:35:48,600 --> 01:35:51,960
permutations mapping to
Grossmanian decorated

1709
01:35:51,960 --> 01:35:56,840
permutations clean technical
problem and I'm working on it

1710
01:35:56,840 --> 01:35:59,000
and I'm not a mathematician so
I'm I'm having to learn about

1711
01:35:59,000 --> 01:36:02,440
positive Grossmanians and I'm
I'm just learning as I go but

1712
01:36:02,520 --> 01:36:06,080
but I'm motivated so that's what
I'm going after now But then I

1713
01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:10,680
my guess is I'm a cognitive
neuroscientist and I would love

1714
01:36:10,680 --> 01:36:13,920
to be going after the brain but
the brain is I don't know 10 to

1715
01:36:13,920 --> 01:36:17,520
the 50th or 10 to the 60th
quarks and gluons whatever is

1716
01:36:18,200 --> 01:36:21,960
maybe I should start with two or
three quarks and gluons you know

1717
01:36:21,960 --> 01:36:27,200
and work there and then and then
work up to you know protons and

1718
01:36:27,200 --> 01:36:32,320
and protons electrons or so do
the nucleus and atom and then

1719
01:36:32,320 --> 01:36:37,600
maybe some simple molecules then
maybe by the time we get to

1720
01:36:37,600 --> 01:36:41,400
molecules maybe we'll know
enough actually know.

1721
01:36:41,400 --> 01:36:43,480
For example about
neurotransmitters.

1722
01:36:43,560 --> 01:36:47,400
What what what what what does a
neurotransmitter mean in terms

1723
01:36:47,400 --> 01:36:51,840
of the dynamic subconscious
agents And but ultimately we'll

1724
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:57,480
have to get then to you know
axons and and neurons and

1725
01:36:57,480 --> 01:37:03,560
synapses and and understand you
can see we have a we have to

1726
01:37:03,560 --> 01:37:05,760
reverse.
So the problem is we have to

1727
01:37:05,760 --> 01:37:09,680
reverse engineer a headset.
We thought so neuroscience is

1728
01:37:09,680 --> 01:37:13,560
far harder than we thought.
We thought that we look inside

1729
01:37:13,960 --> 01:37:17,560
through microscopes and we see
billions of neurons and

1730
01:37:17,560 --> 01:37:21,280
trillions of synapses.
And that's really complicated

1731
01:37:21,280 --> 01:37:22,160
and we think that that's the
truth.

1732
01:37:22,360 --> 01:37:25,080
No, no, no.
That's a thin veneer on the

1733
01:37:25,080 --> 01:37:28,040
complex.
The true complexity is far, far

1734
01:37:28,040 --> 01:37:30,840
greater.
Let me give you just a taste of

1735
01:37:30,840 --> 01:37:36,840
the complexity.
If I have a conscious agent that

1736
01:37:36,840 --> 01:37:45,600
has just 10 colour experiences.
I'll I'll say so say 50 colour

1737
01:37:45,600 --> 01:37:47,000
experiences, 50 colour
experiences.

1738
01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:53,360
You can actually you can
perceive 6 million or 7 million

1739
01:37:53,360 --> 01:37:55,040
different colors.
You can discriminate 6 or 7

1740
01:37:55,040 --> 01:37:57,040
million.
So this is trivial. 5050 colours

1741
01:37:57,040 --> 01:38:00,800
is nothing compared to what you
can do in our theory of

1742
01:38:00,800 --> 01:38:05,840
conscious agents.
The the the set of possible

1743
01:38:05,840 --> 01:38:08,440
Markov chains for consciousness
is dealing with just fifty

1744
01:38:08,440 --> 01:38:11,840
colors.
Is the Markov polytope on 50

1745
01:38:11,840 --> 01:38:13,600
states.
OK, so it's called a Markov

1746
01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:16,240
polytope in 50 states.
And this is a polytope.

1747
01:38:16,240 --> 01:38:19,320
It's a geometric object that we
have to study to understand the

1748
01:38:19,480 --> 01:38:22,320
the all the dynamics of
consciousness and it has little

1749
01:38:22,440 --> 01:38:24,400
vertices on it like a diamond.
It's got little points on it

1750
01:38:24,400 --> 01:38:27,080
right on.
It's got facets and edges and

1751
01:38:27,080 --> 01:38:30,000
and points.
You know how many points this

1752
01:38:30,320 --> 01:38:34,200
with only fifty colors.
You know how many points this

1753
01:38:34,600 --> 01:38:39,200
geometric object has?
It has 10,000 times more points

1754
01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:42,880
than the number of particles in
the known visible universe.

1755
01:38:43,560 --> 01:38:45,120
That's incredible.
That's only for 50.

1756
01:38:45,640 --> 01:38:48,200
So.
So I'm going to need a bigger

1757
01:38:48,200 --> 01:38:51,200
computer to to simulate this
stuff.

1758
01:38:51,200 --> 01:38:54,600
But so, so consciousness.
So we thought that the brain was

1759
01:38:54,600 --> 01:38:59,560
complicated.
It's trivial compared to when we

1760
01:38:59,560 --> 01:39:02,640
when we let go of the head, see,
the headset was there to really

1761
01:39:02,640 --> 01:39:04,320
dumb things down and it
succeeded.

1762
01:39:04,480 --> 01:39:07,880
It really dumbed things down.
We thought we were seeing truth

1763
01:39:08,160 --> 01:39:12,840
that in all of its glory we we
got the really dumbed down,

1764
01:39:12,840 --> 01:39:14,760
cheap version.
As soon as we start taking

1765
01:39:14,760 --> 01:39:17,120
little steps outside of our
little space-time headset.

1766
01:39:17,920 --> 01:39:20,600
Holy smoke, the thing just blows
wide open.

1767
01:39:20,600 --> 01:39:23,960
Consciousness is unbelievably
complicated, and I'm going to

1768
01:39:23,960 --> 01:39:27,320
need a new desktop computer.
And I think the worst part about

1769
01:39:27,320 --> 01:39:30,440
it is that.
Even as you go on.

1770
01:39:30,440 --> 01:39:32,840
Because the I mean the irony is
that you'll probably need

1771
01:39:32,840 --> 01:39:36,480
quantum computers to to try and
help you prove that you can go

1772
01:39:36,480 --> 01:39:39,320
beyond quantum, which is she's
got funny.

1773
01:39:39,320 --> 01:39:43,160
But I think something that's
that's that makes it even worse

1774
01:39:43,160 --> 01:39:45,920
is that you have people like
Mike Levin who are even showing

1775
01:39:45,920 --> 01:39:48,240
you that you don't have to even
go to a neuron to show people

1776
01:39:48,240 --> 01:39:51,640
what intelligence or a possible
mind even is.

1777
01:39:51,640 --> 01:39:53,760
In that sense.
I mean, he's blurring the lines

1778
01:39:53,760 --> 01:39:57,640
completely with his work.
His his bioelectric fields are

1779
01:39:57,680 --> 01:40:00,600
are truly stunning.
It's amazing his work is.

1780
01:40:01,160 --> 01:40:03,240
So brilliant.
No?

1781
01:40:03,720 --> 01:40:05,800
I've enjoyed talking with him.
I have a couple of podcasts

1782
01:40:05,800 --> 01:40:07,760
with.
With Mike and now you you're

1783
01:40:07,760 --> 01:40:10,800
lifting this position where
these bioelectric networks also

1784
01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:14,080
have to sort of some at some
point be explained now

1785
01:40:14,640 --> 01:40:17,600
absolutely.
And he's leaving you a much

1786
01:40:17,600 --> 01:40:21,320
harder task.
I would say that that one sounds

1787
01:40:21,320 --> 01:40:24,320
like a little a very fun task to
understand the bioelectric

1788
01:40:24,320 --> 01:40:29,440
fields and how they would arise
as an interface projection of a

1789
01:40:29,640 --> 01:40:31,400
dynamics of conscious agent
networks, right.

1790
01:40:31,400 --> 01:40:36,440
So, so absolutely this is, this
is going to be fun to reverse

1791
01:40:36,440 --> 01:40:39,040
engineer our headset, our
space-time headset and

1792
01:40:39,040 --> 01:40:41,160
bioelectric fields will be part
of it, neurons will be part of

1793
01:40:41,160 --> 01:40:44,480
it.
DNA all all of that.

1794
01:40:44,600 --> 01:40:51,480
So all in some sense, science is
just now taking off the headset.

1795
01:40:51,480 --> 01:40:56,560
In some sense, we're just now
beginning the real task of

1796
01:40:56,560 --> 01:40:58,600
science.
Right now we just Polish the

1797
01:40:58,600 --> 01:41:00,880
tools on our little headset.
We thought we were seeing the

1798
01:41:00,880 --> 01:41:02,560
truth.
No, we were just sharpening our

1799
01:41:02,560 --> 01:41:04,000
tools.
Now it's time to take the

1800
01:41:04,000 --> 01:41:06,440
headset off and really get to
work on on what's beyond.

1801
01:41:06,800 --> 01:41:09,680
It's pretty exciting, yeah.
It's almost like a post realism.

1802
01:41:10,800 --> 01:41:13,520
It's a there's there's got to be
some term for it.

1803
01:41:13,720 --> 01:41:16,880
Post realism there.
There's going to be something we

1804
01:41:17,040 --> 01:41:18,600
people are now moving beyond
this headset.

1805
01:41:18,640 --> 01:41:20,680
If they're going to try and
figure out reality in this way

1806
01:41:21,520 --> 01:41:25,880
something or maybe it'll be pro
realism in the sense that we

1807
01:41:25,880 --> 01:41:27,960
thought that the headset is not
the real thing.

1808
01:41:28,160 --> 01:41:30,320
That's just a that's just a
headset Now we're getting into

1809
01:41:30,320 --> 01:41:35,840
the realism but but but even but
see but our discussion on on the

1810
01:41:35,840 --> 01:41:39,760
limits of scientific theories
means that even though I'm

1811
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:42,000
saying we're going outside the
headset and science is really

1812
01:41:42,000 --> 01:41:46,200
just beginning still scientific
theories will never be a theory

1813
01:41:46,200 --> 01:41:49,040
of everything.
Humility is going to be required

1814
01:41:49,040 --> 01:41:51,480
at every step because yeah,
we're stepping outside the

1815
01:41:51,480 --> 01:41:54,720
headset, but effectively we've
just moved to a bigger

1816
01:41:56,440 --> 01:41:59,440
projection of the One.
All we all we can never deal

1817
01:41:59,440 --> 01:42:01,880
with are are bigger and bigger
projections of the One.

1818
01:42:02,680 --> 01:42:05,120
And no matter how big our
projections are, they will be

1819
01:42:05,120 --> 01:42:08,120
literally measure zero of the
One.

1820
01:42:08,920 --> 01:42:11,440
So so quality is required.
I'm glad you brought.

1821
01:42:11,440 --> 01:42:13,440
I'm glad you brought it back to
that because I wanted to ask

1822
01:42:13,440 --> 01:42:14,360
you.
I mean, you started off by

1823
01:42:14,360 --> 01:42:17,440
talking about the stress chain,
figuring out the one and and

1824
01:42:17,520 --> 01:42:21,360
this new information.
If you could just try and sort

1825
01:42:21,360 --> 01:42:27,200
of conceptualize this, what you
think this is the one what what

1826
01:42:27,200 --> 01:42:29,680
type of?
Is there any way for you to wrap

1827
01:42:29,680 --> 01:42:31,920
your head around this?
Do you think you can?

1828
01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:38,560
In a way, I think we all can in
in the following sense.

1829
01:42:38,720 --> 01:42:43,920
If it's true that you are the
one experience itself through a

1830
01:42:43,920 --> 01:42:51,000
headset and the reason that you
don't feel that is because

1831
01:42:52,040 --> 01:42:55,120
you're in with both feet on the
headset, you you really believe

1832
01:42:55,280 --> 01:42:57,000
that you are the avatar in the
headset.

1833
01:42:57,280 --> 01:42:58,400
And that's part of the whole
game.

1834
01:42:58,400 --> 01:43:01,920
I mean the part of the whole
game is to completely for the

1835
01:43:01,920 --> 01:43:05,520
one to completely lose itself in
in the headset and to slowly

1836
01:43:05,520 --> 01:43:08,440
wake up.
If if I don't really believe it

1837
01:43:08,440 --> 01:43:11,120
for a while, it's not going to
be real for me to say it.

1838
01:43:11,120 --> 01:43:13,440
I'm not that because I never
really took it seriously.

1839
01:43:13,440 --> 01:43:16,320
So I need to take it seriously
and then let go.

1840
01:43:17,040 --> 01:43:24,320
So and I think it is possible
even while we're still having

1841
01:43:24,320 --> 01:43:30,560
these avatars in the headset
through meditation to let go and

1842
01:43:30,600 --> 01:43:33,960
but but to the mind.
So this is now where it starts

1843
01:43:33,960 --> 01:43:39,480
to sort of go with what
spiritual traditions some have

1844
01:43:39,480 --> 01:43:43,280
said and that is that the truth
can't be understood by the mind.

1845
01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:46,840
So no words are adequate.
No scientific theory is

1846
01:43:46,840 --> 01:43:50,560
adequate.
But you have another access to

1847
01:43:50,560 --> 01:43:54,440
that realm that's not a
conceptual access, it's direct.

1848
01:43:55,000 --> 01:43:57,880
You are that infinite
intelligence.

1849
01:43:57,880 --> 01:44:03,600
That's what you are.
And any concept that you have of

1850
01:44:03,600 --> 01:44:07,760
yourself is only a projection,
necessarily.

1851
01:44:08,560 --> 01:44:14,960
So the only way to answer your
question is to of course I do my

1852
01:44:14,960 --> 01:44:17,200
science.
And but to answer your question

1853
01:44:17,200 --> 01:44:21,360
to to really go deep, I have to
let go of all of my concepts,

1854
01:44:21,360 --> 01:44:28,120
including all of my scientific
theories completely no, No

1855
01:44:28,120 --> 01:44:32,840
thoughts at all.
So literally a space of no

1856
01:44:32,840 --> 01:44:37,840
thoughts, no conceptions and
just aware of aware awareness of

1857
01:44:37,840 --> 01:44:40,880
awareness.
And then I think that's where

1858
01:44:40,880 --> 01:44:45,120
you then begin to know yourself,
not as you know an external

1859
01:44:45,120 --> 01:44:47,720
object, but you know yourself
directly.

1860
01:44:48,280 --> 01:44:50,560
And my guess is that that goes
infinitely deep.

1861
01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:56,160
In other words, if you do that
for 5 minutes, you experience

1862
01:44:56,200 --> 01:45:00,480
that for 5 minutes, you've not
scratched the surface yet.

1863
01:45:01,440 --> 01:45:04,120
Try it for 500 years, you've not
scratched the surface yet.

1864
01:45:04,320 --> 01:45:07,400
That's how deep you go.
So that.

1865
01:45:08,040 --> 01:45:11,960
So somehow the, the deep answer
to your question is on the one

1866
01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:16,120
hand we know the one by looking
at this projection and doing all

1867
01:45:16,120 --> 01:45:20,040
of our science and we know the
one by doing that really, really

1868
01:45:20,040 --> 01:45:22,760
carefully and then saying I
transcend it.

1869
01:45:22,760 --> 01:45:27,880
I'm not that I'm that is a lower
limit on my capabilities and I

1870
01:45:28,120 --> 01:45:30,320
that's not the that's not the
limit of who I am.

1871
01:45:30,920 --> 01:45:35,800
Then we can go beyond that by
letting go of all thoughts and

1872
01:45:35,800 --> 01:45:38,880
just being the awareness of
awareness and that goes

1873
01:45:38,880 --> 01:45:42,080
infinitely deep.
And so you can know it directly,

1874
01:45:42,440 --> 01:45:47,120
but but the mind will say
because there's no concepts for

1875
01:45:47,120 --> 01:45:49,720
the mind to deal with.
So the intellectual mind will

1876
01:45:49,720 --> 01:45:51,560
say that's there's there's
nothing there.

1877
01:45:52,400 --> 01:45:57,240
But but frankly my own
experience is that if I want new

1878
01:45:57,240 --> 01:46:01,600
ideas to do my science, I need
to go into the space where I let

1879
01:46:01,600 --> 01:46:04,040
go of all concepts.
I need to actually tap into that

1880
01:46:04,040 --> 01:46:08,520
infinite intelligence and just
be in absolute interior science.

1881
01:46:08,760 --> 01:46:10,200
That's where all the good ideas
come from.

1882
01:46:10,840 --> 01:46:12,520
Then you bring them back in.
So.

1883
01:46:12,600 --> 01:46:15,520
So the mind really isn't.
I mean, it has its own little

1884
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:19,000
limited intelligence and you can
do, you can do mathematical

1885
01:46:19,080 --> 01:46:23,960
computations and so forth.
But if you want deep insights,

1886
01:46:23,960 --> 01:46:25,600
you got to let go of the mind.
Yeah.

1887
01:46:25,600 --> 01:46:27,600
So we.
So we are one infinite

1888
01:46:27,840 --> 01:46:29,720
intelligence, Yeah.
Yeah.

1889
01:46:30,240 --> 01:46:30,960
Yes.
When?

1890
01:46:31,440 --> 01:46:33,360
Sorry Don.
I'm not sure if I I haven't

1891
01:46:33,360 --> 01:46:35,880
really picked up on you saying
this much but when did you start

1892
01:46:35,880 --> 01:46:43,880
calling it the one.
I was influenced by Federico

1893
01:46:43,880 --> 01:46:48,120
Fajin so.
So Federico's a good friend and

1894
01:46:48,120 --> 01:46:53,960
and and I've really he's a
wonderful man and and he helped

1895
01:46:54,640 --> 01:46:57,040
support this research for and he
talked about the one.

1896
01:46:57,040 --> 01:47:00,360
He didn't give a mathematical
model of the one and of course

1897
01:47:00,360 --> 01:47:04,520
you can't but he talked about
the one and and and I you know

1898
01:47:05,280 --> 01:47:10,560
at first I didn't use the term
but then I I I realized that our

1899
01:47:10,960 --> 01:47:13,760
my mathematics was pointing me
toward the idea that there was

1900
01:47:13,760 --> 01:47:16,720
going to be not just a a network
of separate consciousnesses but

1901
01:47:16,720 --> 01:47:19,760
I was going to have to recognize
that yeah they can combine.

1902
01:47:19,760 --> 01:47:22,360
And ultimately there's there's
some notion of 1.

1903
01:47:23,200 --> 01:47:28,040
And so I decided that that was
sort of the least tendentious

1904
01:47:28,040 --> 01:47:34,360
word that I could use and and
but I don't think right now that

1905
01:47:34,360 --> 01:47:37,640
I have a mathematical model of
the one, I have a mathematical

1906
01:47:37,640 --> 01:47:39,920
model of projection of the one
in terms of conscious agent

1907
01:47:39,920 --> 01:47:43,520
networks.
So, so that's why I started

1908
01:47:43,520 --> 01:47:47,640
using the the term the one and
maybe the last few years after

1909
01:47:47,640 --> 01:47:50,840
me, I sort of sort of filtered
in when I was started thinking

1910
01:47:50,840 --> 01:47:54,240
more and more about the deeper
structure of this network of

1911
01:47:54,240 --> 01:47:59,440
conscious agents so.
Do you think the there is so so

1912
01:47:59,480 --> 01:48:03,520
the the ultimate purpose at this
point then is the one the one

1913
01:48:03,840 --> 01:48:07,440
sort of experiencing?
Well, having multiple

1914
01:48:07,440 --> 01:48:13,840
experiences via us, the avatars
in this infinite sort of some

1915
01:48:14,560 --> 01:48:17,040
essence beyond space-time.
That's right.

1916
01:48:17,320 --> 01:48:21,600
Enjoying those experiences and
then learning what it is by by

1917
01:48:21,920 --> 01:48:25,160
learning that no matter how
exotic and impressive those

1918
01:48:25,160 --> 01:48:28,720
experiences are, they're trivial
compared to what the One is.

1919
01:48:29,200 --> 01:48:31,760
Yeah.
And and then do you think done

1920
01:48:31,840 --> 01:48:34,960
with that in mind if you take
certain?

1921
01:48:35,440 --> 01:48:37,760
Other theories that are
physicalists, like the malt,

1922
01:48:37,760 --> 01:48:40,520
well, they go a bit beyond that
when they think about a

1923
01:48:40,520 --> 01:48:43,280
multiverse.
Would would a multiverse in this

1924
01:48:43,280 --> 01:48:50,240
context be the others?
And maybe there's one in this

1925
01:48:50,240 --> 01:48:52,800
universe and then there are
others, you know, sort of other

1926
01:48:52,800 --> 01:48:54,360
universes.
Do you think?

1927
01:48:54,520 --> 01:48:59,280
Well, what could interpret?
So there's of course a technical

1928
01:48:59,280 --> 01:49:04,920
meaning of multiverse, you know
that some physicists have and

1929
01:49:04,920 --> 01:49:07,200
also many worlds.
There's different kind of

1930
01:49:07,760 --> 01:49:12,920
technical thing there but one
just at the top level.

1931
01:49:12,920 --> 01:49:17,560
One could say the the idea that
I have a multiple headsets could

1932
01:49:17,560 --> 01:49:23,160
be sort of like multiple
universes multiverse kind of

1933
01:49:23,160 --> 01:49:28,520
thing possibly.
But when you get real technical

1934
01:49:28,520 --> 01:49:31,400
about I mean like Max Tegmark
has you know his level 4

1935
01:49:31,400 --> 01:49:37,280
multiverse which he so so so
it's it's different now from

1936
01:49:37,280 --> 01:49:39,520
what I just said right because I
was saying we could think

1937
01:49:39,520 --> 01:49:42,480
informally about all these
multiverses being just different

1938
01:49:42,480 --> 01:49:45,160
headsets and there's an infinite
variety of them so that that's

1939
01:49:45,440 --> 01:49:48,840
top level connection to your
idea but but getting down more

1940
01:49:48,840 --> 01:49:51,440
to brass tacks like what what
real physicists are using

1941
01:49:51,440 --> 01:49:55,000
multiverse for like 1 concrete
example is Max Tegmarket at MIT

1942
01:49:55,400 --> 01:49:58,640
is level 4 multiverse He's he's
saying that mathematics is

1943
01:49:58,640 --> 01:50:01,280
fundamental reality.
OK.

1944
01:50:01,280 --> 01:50:03,960
So the fundamental nature of
reality is is entirely

1945
01:50:03,960 --> 01:50:07,120
mathematical and there's an
infinite variety of possible

1946
01:50:07,120 --> 01:50:10,280
mathematics and so there's an
infinite variety of mathematical

1947
01:50:10,280 --> 01:50:16,800
universes And so he and and I I
agree that there's mathematics

1948
01:50:16,800 --> 01:50:19,560
is endless it's it's it's
infinite.

1949
01:50:20,480 --> 01:50:23,880
But I don't think that
mathematics, you know of course

1950
01:50:25,000 --> 01:50:28,680
I think Tegmark is brilliant and
you know in in this realm I

1951
01:50:28,680 --> 01:50:31,680
would probably be set straight
by him.

1952
01:50:31,800 --> 01:50:37,600
But anyway here's my idea as as
as it is that when it comes to

1953
01:50:38,040 --> 01:50:42,240
the nature of reality
consciousness what is the

1954
01:50:42,240 --> 01:50:44,120
relation between mathematics and
consciousness.

1955
01:50:45,240 --> 01:50:50,920
My feeling is that mathematics
isn't the whole thing the the

1956
01:50:50,920 --> 01:50:53,080
the consciousness the living.
We've put it this way.

1957
01:50:53,080 --> 01:50:56,760
The living Organism of
consciousness has mathematics is

1958
01:50:56,760 --> 01:50:59,440
like the bones but the bones are
just the bones they're not the

1959
01:50:59,440 --> 01:51:02,440
whole living Organism and and
they're they're essential

1960
01:51:02,680 --> 01:51:05,920
Mathematics I think is essential
but it's not the whole of the

1961
01:51:05,920 --> 01:51:10,440
living Organism of of of
consciousness.

1962
01:51:10,760 --> 01:51:14,960
So that's sort of my feeling
about how my my views fit with

1963
01:51:14,960 --> 01:51:19,600
like, multiverse kinds of.
It's fascinating to me.

1964
01:51:19,600 --> 01:51:22,480
How?
It's it's becoming so poetic

1965
01:51:22,480 --> 01:51:24,640
over time.
I mean, the more you're you're

1966
01:51:24,640 --> 01:51:27,280
obviously talking about this so
much more lately and you're

1967
01:51:27,280 --> 01:51:30,280
trying to get people to
understand it and it's it's

1968
01:51:30,280 --> 01:51:33,360
starting to slowly develop its
own sort of moral, practical

1969
01:51:33,360 --> 01:51:37,520
significance as you have to
build on it and apply it.

1970
01:51:39,480 --> 01:51:42,000
Did you ever foresee yourself
becoming someone who will sound

1971
01:51:42,000 --> 01:51:46,520
so spiritual, almost guru like
in in your life?

1972
01:51:48,200 --> 01:51:50,240
No.
I mean I it's it's sort of I've

1973
01:51:50,240 --> 01:51:52,040
been push kicking and screaming
I.

1974
01:51:52,680 --> 01:51:56,720
Can tell it was kind of thing by
by the mathematics and but but

1975
01:51:56,880 --> 01:51:59,720
on the other hand you know at
some point it's it's time to

1976
01:51:59,720 --> 01:52:02,280
quit kicking and screaming and
and just say hey this is what

1977
01:52:02,720 --> 01:52:06,480
the the next step in in I mean
physics is telling us the

1978
01:52:06,480 --> 01:52:11,000
space-time is over and quantum
theory is not fundamental so get

1979
01:52:11,000 --> 01:52:14,280
over it move on.
And so physicalism is dead.

1980
01:52:14,280 --> 01:52:17,800
OK, get over it.
You know we it's time to get

1981
01:52:17,800 --> 01:52:19,920
over it.
And and now on the other hand

1982
01:52:19,920 --> 01:52:23,200
you might say, am I jumping in
full, you know, with both feet

1983
01:52:23,320 --> 01:52:26,200
to spiritual traditions and and
just buying what they say?

1984
01:52:26,360 --> 01:52:28,920
Absolutely not.
I'm having respectful

1985
01:52:28,920 --> 01:52:33,240
conversations.
So I I listen respectfully and

1986
01:52:33,240 --> 01:52:38,080
and carefully and I I treat what
I hear from spiritual traditions

1987
01:52:38,080 --> 01:52:41,200
the way I treat what I hear from
scientists.

1988
01:52:41,680 --> 01:52:46,360
I listen respectfully with a big
grain of salt in science and in

1989
01:52:46,360 --> 01:52:50,960
spirituality, that there is
nonsense in both realms and

1990
01:52:50,960 --> 01:52:55,320
there is deep wisdom in both
realms and it's up to us to take

1991
01:52:55,320 --> 01:52:58,640
what looks good, turn it into so
spiritual traditions I think

1992
01:52:58,640 --> 01:53:01,320
have a lot of insights and
there's clearly a lot of

1993
01:53:01,320 --> 01:53:04,440
nonsense.
I mean they've they're famous

1994
01:53:04,440 --> 01:53:07,440
for wars that kill each other
for for thousands of years, so.

1995
01:53:07,680 --> 01:53:11,280
So they have deep insights and
there's deep dysfunction and the

1996
01:53:11,400 --> 01:53:16,560
the issue is to understand which
is which and to and and maybe

1997
01:53:16,560 --> 01:53:19,880
for example it may be that many
of the spiritual traditions

1998
01:53:20,040 --> 01:53:25,320
themselves are very deeply onto
something but the practitioners

1999
01:53:25,320 --> 01:53:27,320
don't understand and they're the
ones that are doing the killing,

2000
01:53:27,320 --> 01:53:28,520
right.
It's not the it's not the

2001
01:53:28,520 --> 01:53:31,520
philosophy or it's not the
insights that the gurus have

2002
01:53:31,520 --> 01:53:33,960
had.
It's the misuse of them by the

2003
01:53:34,480 --> 01:53:35,960
the followers that that's the
problem.

2004
01:53:35,960 --> 01:53:38,880
So we have to be very very
careful and don't dismiss the

2005
01:53:38,880 --> 01:53:43,480
philosophy based because some
some followers start doing some

2006
01:53:43,480 --> 01:53:46,800
nasty things.
So so there's pitfalls

2007
01:53:46,800 --> 01:53:47,360
everywhere.
See.

2008
01:53:47,560 --> 01:53:51,720
So as a scientist, what what I
want to do is to listen

2009
01:53:51,720 --> 01:53:58,720
respectfully to the ideas, then
look for mathematically precise

2010
01:53:58,720 --> 01:54:01,560
statements of the ideas, ones
that look interesting, right?

2011
01:54:03,280 --> 01:54:05,160
And then turn them into testable
theories.

2012
01:54:07,040 --> 01:54:13,040
Ultimately, spiritual traditions
tell us that their words are

2013
01:54:13,040 --> 01:54:15,560
just pointers, right?
Like the the Tao de Ching.

2014
01:54:15,680 --> 01:54:19,640
The very first sentence in the
Tao de Ching says the Tao that

2015
01:54:19,640 --> 01:54:22,000
can be spoken is not the true
Tao.

2016
01:54:24,320 --> 01:54:26,920
Once you understand that, then
you can go ahead and read the

2017
01:54:26,920 --> 01:54:28,320
rest of it.
Because now you understand that

2018
01:54:28,320 --> 01:54:32,000
everything that's that's said is
not the truth, is not.

2019
01:54:32,000 --> 01:54:37,480
To be taken dogmatically is to
be taken as a pointer for you to

2020
01:54:37,480 --> 01:54:39,640
explore for yourself.
So it's not about.

2021
01:54:40,000 --> 01:54:42,840
So you better say it exactly
this way or you go to hell.

2022
01:54:42,840 --> 01:54:45,280
No, no, no, no.
This is these are all pointers.

2023
01:54:45,400 --> 01:54:46,840
Take them in the spirit of
pointers.

2024
01:54:47,080 --> 01:54:49,600
You you have to explore for
yourself.

2025
01:54:50,200 --> 01:54:52,960
So, so the spiritual traditions
have said that.

2026
01:54:54,040 --> 01:54:58,080
But wouldn't it be nice to have
pointers that tell you their own

2027
01:54:58,080 --> 01:55:01,640
limits, right.
And that's what science gives

2028
01:55:01,640 --> 01:55:06,360
you, space-time.
It's mathematically precise.

2029
01:55:06,440 --> 01:55:09,600
And you know what?
It falls apart at 10 to the -33

2030
01:55:09,600 --> 01:55:11,320
centimetres.
We can tell you where that

2031
01:55:11,320 --> 01:55:15,600
pointer falls apart.
This is the antidote to

2032
01:55:15,600 --> 01:55:19,600
dogmatism.
So what I would love to see is

2033
01:55:19,600 --> 01:55:23,000
that this, the precision that
we've got in science is brought

2034
01:55:23,000 --> 01:55:26,880
over to spirituality so that we
now can have pointers in in the

2035
01:55:26,880 --> 01:55:29,480
spiritual traditions that are,
that are, that are evolving.

2036
01:55:29,640 --> 01:55:32,440
It's it's it's it's nothing to
boast about that I'm using the

2037
01:55:32,440 --> 01:55:34,520
same pointers that they used
3000 years ago.

2038
01:55:35,200 --> 01:55:38,400
I wouldn't brag about that.
I would say that's a problem.

2039
01:55:38,400 --> 01:55:41,920
I mean we we would like to have
this thing evolving and get get

2040
01:55:41,920 --> 01:55:46,920
better pointers and pointers
that in themselves tell you the

2041
01:55:46,920 --> 01:55:49,400
limit the the scope of the
pointer, how it's going to be

2042
01:55:49,400 --> 01:55:52,600
useful to you and the limit of
the pointer so that we won't

2043
01:55:52,600 --> 01:55:55,240
then fight over the pointers and
and kill each other over the

2044
01:55:55,240 --> 01:55:56,720
pointers.
And you don't believe my

2045
01:55:56,720 --> 01:55:59,040
pointer.
Well, you go to hell or that

2046
01:55:59,040 --> 01:56:02,600
kind of thing.
Yeah, I mean this is, this has

2047
01:56:02,600 --> 01:56:05,200
been such a fascinating
conversation because I mean it's

2048
01:56:05,200 --> 01:56:06,760
different from the first two.
In the first.

2049
01:56:06,960 --> 01:56:09,720
First one we we went into a lot
of details on all the theories.

2050
01:56:09,720 --> 01:56:11,600
Second one we went into a paper
directly.

2051
01:56:12,320 --> 01:56:16,800
As I said, I tried to make this
one as as practical or almost a

2052
01:56:16,800 --> 01:56:20,760
moral philosophy aspect of of
all of us and.

2053
01:56:21,520 --> 01:56:23,720
I mean you even you you're brave
enough at this point clearly

2054
01:56:23,720 --> 01:56:26,240
from all the work you've done to
even mention the word the L

2055
01:56:26,240 --> 01:56:27,800
word.
I mean the love word in science

2056
01:56:27,800 --> 01:56:29,800
people.
You know how some scientists get

2057
01:56:30,480 --> 01:56:31,880
when you say that.
Yeah.

2058
01:56:33,480 --> 01:56:36,040
Just talk to me about this this
bigger picture meaning and how

2059
01:56:36,080 --> 01:56:38,840
people can take all this
information because now we've

2060
01:56:38,840 --> 01:56:40,400
got two podcast episodes they
can look at.

2061
01:56:40,400 --> 01:56:42,240
They've got all the others you
mentioned as well.

2062
01:56:42,520 --> 01:56:46,040
You speaking to Tom, you
speaking to Bernardo, everything

2063
01:56:46,040 --> 01:56:48,280
else.
How can they bring all of this

2064
01:56:48,280 --> 01:56:52,240
information together and.
And fulfil this purpose of the

2065
01:56:52,240 --> 01:56:56,960
one or or or make it a more,
let's say a better process for

2066
01:56:56,960 --> 01:57:03,160
all of us together, right.
Well I think that one way to

2067
01:57:03,160 --> 01:57:07,600
think about what's happening
with humanity is part of

2068
01:57:07,600 --> 01:57:12,440
humanity for thousands of years
has said this is just a headset

2069
01:57:13,120 --> 01:57:15,560
the the spiritual part.
They they said you know the

2070
01:57:15,920 --> 01:57:19,480
space of time is not fundamental
consciousness fund but but but

2071
01:57:19,480 --> 01:57:24,440
they've said that with only the
tools of natural language

2072
01:57:26,040 --> 01:57:30,840
they've not had mathematics.
There's another group of people

2073
01:57:31,160 --> 01:57:33,120
who have been saying no, no no.
The headset's everything.

2074
01:57:33,120 --> 01:57:34,600
There is the physicalists.
Right.

2075
01:57:34,760 --> 01:57:38,240
This this is this is it.
And we're and but they developed

2076
01:57:38,600 --> 01:57:42,880
these mathematical tools and and
careful experiments and they

2077
01:57:42,880 --> 01:57:46,880
gave us the technology So we
have one group but then but then

2078
01:57:46,880 --> 01:57:50,800
the the group that's developed
all this technology and and all

2079
01:57:50,800 --> 01:57:54,800
the mathematical stuff and all
of a sudden their own theories

2080
01:57:54,800 --> 01:57:58,160
came back just in the last
couple decades and slapped them

2081
01:57:58,160 --> 01:58:01,960
in the face and said wake up
space-time is just a headset.

2082
01:58:02,040 --> 01:58:04,920
It and it's a cheap headset.
It falls apart at 10 to the -3

2083
01:58:04,920 --> 01:58:06,440
to 3 centimetres.
So.

2084
01:58:06,680 --> 01:58:11,920
So so now scientists very few
right now but but some and I

2085
01:58:11,920 --> 01:58:15,480
think more as as as we really
understand the slap in the face

2086
01:58:15,480 --> 01:58:17,880
that space-time is doomed.
A lot of the scientists are

2087
01:58:17,880 --> 01:58:21,920
going to be waking up going well
we need to OK we have to go

2088
01:58:21,920 --> 01:58:24,720
outside of space-time.
Well it's this big group of

2089
01:58:24,720 --> 01:58:25,720
people that are already out
there.

2090
01:58:25,760 --> 01:58:28,000
They're saying well welcome
latecomers.

2091
01:58:28,000 --> 01:58:32,040
We've been here for a long time.
They've done a lot of exploring

2092
01:58:32,040 --> 01:58:37,280
there but they don't have the
tools that science has.

2093
01:58:37,920 --> 01:58:40,920
So there are two groups that
have half of the puzzle.

2094
01:58:42,440 --> 01:58:44,840
This one group has a big part of
the puzzle.

2095
01:58:44,840 --> 01:58:47,280
They've been doing meditation
and they have in informal

2096
01:58:47,280 --> 01:58:50,320
descriptions.
This group is just coming late

2097
01:58:50,320 --> 01:58:54,480
to the party, but they have
incredible tools and precision

2098
01:58:54,480 --> 01:58:58,400
and experiments.
Let's get the two together and

2099
01:58:58,400 --> 01:59:04,720
let's Spirituality and science
are just two aspects of human

2100
01:59:04,720 --> 01:59:08,160
exploration.
It's all human exploration and

2101
01:59:08,160 --> 01:59:11,000
understanding who we are.
They're not separate.

2102
01:59:11,360 --> 01:59:12,600
We've assumed that they're
separate.

2103
01:59:12,600 --> 01:59:15,480
There's been this division, you
know, especially since Galileo,

2104
01:59:15,520 --> 01:59:18,960
you know, his house imprisonment
by the the Catholic Church right

2105
01:59:18,960 --> 01:59:21,640
there has been this huge
division.

2106
01:59:21,760 --> 01:59:27,080
It's it's it's time for us to
grow up and bring the two halves

2107
01:59:27,080 --> 01:59:28,720
together.
It's going to be painful.

2108
01:59:29,840 --> 01:59:34,080
Any marriage like this is going
to be painful because there's

2109
01:59:34,080 --> 01:59:36,280
dogmas.
Yeah, yeah, Many.

2110
01:59:36,720 --> 01:59:39,200
I, I I think the spiritual gurus
don't have dogmas, but the

2111
01:59:39,200 --> 01:59:41,640
followers do.
Many followers of spiritual

2112
01:59:41,640 --> 01:59:46,360
traditions get tied up in the
pointer, saying that pointer is

2113
01:59:46,360 --> 01:59:48,040
the truth.
This is the this pointer is the

2114
01:59:48,040 --> 01:59:49,840
truth.
No, no, it's just the pointer to

2115
01:59:49,840 --> 01:59:52,440
the moon is not the moon.
The Buddhist will say it's just

2116
01:59:52,440 --> 01:59:53,600
a pointer.
It's not the moon.

2117
01:59:55,200 --> 01:59:57,080
But the many followers just
don't get it.

2118
01:59:58,000 --> 02:00:02,320
And that's just human nature.
So it'll be painful on both

2119
02:00:02,320 --> 02:00:04,760
sides because.
Scientists are going to have to

2120
02:00:04,760 --> 02:00:08,280
let go of physicalism.
And for most scientists to let

2121
02:00:08,280 --> 02:00:12,440
go of physicalism is to not be a
scientist but but but science is

2122
02:00:12,440 --> 02:00:16,440
not a particular theory, namely
space-time.

2123
02:00:16,840 --> 02:00:23,920
It's not a theory.
Science is a method of careful

2124
02:00:25,000 --> 02:00:28,920
experiments and careful theory
building and testing and a cycle

2125
02:00:29,080 --> 02:00:31,240
of experiment and theory.
That's what science is.

2126
02:00:32,160 --> 02:00:35,520
Physicalism is 1 theory that was
helpful for several centuries

2127
02:00:35,920 --> 02:00:39,200
and has outlived its usefulness.
It's time to let go of that.

2128
02:00:39,400 --> 02:00:42,480
And you don't let go of science
by letting go of physicalism.

2129
02:00:42,640 --> 02:00:47,040
In fact, if you don't let go of
physicalism, then you do let go

2130
02:00:47,040 --> 02:00:51,080
of science because you refuse to
go where the science is telling

2131
02:00:51,080 --> 02:00:52,720
you to go.
You've got to go beyond

2132
02:00:52,720 --> 02:00:55,160
space-time.
So it it will.

2133
02:00:55,200 --> 02:01:00,720
It's painful because something
that we've both sides have

2134
02:01:00,720 --> 02:01:06,160
deeply believed will turn out to
be deeply false and other things

2135
02:01:07,240 --> 02:01:10,360
will turn out to be true.
And we'll have to pick what are

2136
02:01:10,360 --> 02:01:14,040
the true things, or or I
wouldn't say true the next, the

2137
02:01:14,040 --> 02:01:16,600
next useful steps.
You know, ultimately the truth

2138
02:01:16,600 --> 02:01:18,720
is just you without any
concepts.

2139
02:01:18,840 --> 02:01:21,640
That's just the only truth I can
talk to is you without any

2140
02:01:21,640 --> 02:01:26,200
concepts about it.
But in our efforts as human

2141
02:01:26,200 --> 02:01:29,840
beings to put together pointers
on the spiritual side and on the

2142
02:01:29,840 --> 02:01:34,120
science side the two can work
together And so I that's that's

2143
02:01:34,400 --> 02:01:36,040
to integrate what we've been
talking about.

2144
02:01:36,040 --> 02:01:37,880
I would say that that's the top
level picture.

2145
02:01:38,280 --> 02:01:44,480
Let's let have respectful but
but but not credulous and so so

2146
02:01:44,600 --> 02:01:48,600
you know not not not stupid but
a respectful conversation and to

2147
02:01:48,720 --> 02:01:52,040
to find what are the good
insights from both sides and

2148
02:01:52,040 --> 02:01:55,600
what are the stupid things from
both sides and bring the goods

2149
02:01:55,640 --> 02:01:59,560
good insights together and have
a scientific spirituality that's

2150
02:01:59,600 --> 02:02:03,360
that's rigorous and and human.
Yeah, no, I completely agree.

2151
02:02:03,360 --> 02:02:04,800
I know I've, I've always thought
that as well.

2152
02:02:04,800 --> 02:02:08,280
I mean, E meets W almost Ying,
Yang and Yan, you have to sort

2153
02:02:08,280 --> 02:02:11,400
of bring these concepts together
because there's so much

2154
02:02:11,400 --> 02:02:15,040
different types of knowledge and
bodies of knowledge that even

2155
02:02:15,040 --> 02:02:19,240
the general Western scientists
did not understand.

2156
02:02:19,240 --> 02:02:22,640
A lot of Eastern science or
Asian philosophy, African

2157
02:02:22,640 --> 02:02:24,480
philosophy.
There's a lot to it that a lot

2158
02:02:24,480 --> 02:02:27,760
of them just have never had
access to and don't get.

2159
02:02:28,320 --> 02:02:30,880
But but what have I found things
to say?

2160
02:02:31,840 --> 02:02:34,720
I I I agree with you.
I I agree and I think that in

2161
02:02:34,720 --> 02:02:41,080
the dialogue the informal
natural language descriptions of

2162
02:02:41,080 --> 02:02:44,160
these traditions can be
translated into mathematics.

2163
02:02:45,440 --> 02:02:49,560
And at that point then we can
start to get the real power of

2164
02:02:49,680 --> 02:02:54,160
of the ideas right.
I like to use the example of of

2165
02:02:54,400 --> 02:02:57,560
Einstein when his developed the
theory of general relativity.

2166
02:02:58,240 --> 02:03:01,600
The big idea came like in 1907
where he realized if I was in an

2167
02:03:01,600 --> 02:03:06,160
elevator standing on a a
weighing scale and the cord of

2168
02:03:06,160 --> 02:03:08,400
the elevator was cut and this
went into free fro, all of a

2169
02:03:08,400 --> 02:03:10,520
sudden I would weigh nothing.
On the on the scale I would

2170
02:03:10,520 --> 02:03:12,160
weigh nothing.
That was his big insight that

2171
02:03:12,160 --> 02:03:15,680
led to general relativity.
But it took him years and he was

2172
02:03:15,680 --> 02:03:18,800
Einstein, so he was brilliant.
It took him years to turn that

2173
02:03:18,800 --> 02:03:20,840
into mathematics.
But when he turned it into

2174
02:03:20,840 --> 02:03:25,440
mathematics a year later, or,
you know, a few months later,

2175
02:03:25,640 --> 02:03:29,800
Schwarzschild, some German
soldier actually, but brilliant,

2176
02:03:30,480 --> 02:03:32,760
solved his equations and proved
that there were black holes.

2177
02:03:33,560 --> 02:03:38,480
Well, Einstein had no idea that
his equations would lead to he

2178
02:03:38,480 --> 02:03:39,720
didn't like it.
He didn't believe in black

2179
02:03:39,720 --> 02:03:45,240
holes.
So what happens is your theories

2180
02:03:45,320 --> 02:03:49,440
become smarter than the person
who wrote them down.

2181
02:03:50,080 --> 02:03:51,880
You become a student of your own
theory.

2182
02:03:51,880 --> 02:03:55,880
Even if you're an Einstein,
you're not smart enough to know

2183
02:03:56,280 --> 02:03:57,760
everything that your theory is
going to teach you.

2184
02:03:58,120 --> 02:04:00,200
And you'll see.
So that's what's going to happen

2185
02:04:00,200 --> 02:04:02,480
with spirituality does not have
that yet.

2186
02:04:03,120 --> 02:04:07,240
They don't have the benefit of
taking the ideas, making them so

2187
02:04:07,240 --> 02:04:12,520
precise that you can become
students of those ideas where

2188
02:04:12,520 --> 02:04:16,640
where even the teacher who wrote
them down doesn't know all the

2189
02:04:16,640 --> 02:04:19,840
implications and has to become
humble before their own

2190
02:04:19,840 --> 02:04:22,120
mathematics and let it teach
them.

2191
02:04:23,520 --> 02:04:26,800
That's that's when when
spirituality gets to that point.

2192
02:04:27,400 --> 02:04:29,480
Sign me up, I'm really
interested.

2193
02:04:30,040 --> 02:04:33,720
Well, sign me up too, Don.
I'm also key to go on that

2194
02:04:33,720 --> 02:04:36,160
journey as well.
Listen Don, it's it's been

2195
02:04:36,160 --> 02:04:38,320
another pleasure, pleasure for
me.

2196
02:04:38,320 --> 02:04:39,960
It's been such an amazing
journey.

2197
02:04:40,600 --> 02:04:43,760
Chatting to you is always so
much fun and and I still can't

2198
02:04:43,760 --> 02:04:45,680
wait for us to have many more
along the way.

2199
02:04:46,000 --> 02:04:48,160
Anything on your mind?
Anything else you you want to

2200
02:04:48,160 --> 02:04:52,360
say 1.
One thing I'll I'd like to say,

2201
02:04:52,360 --> 02:04:57,720
and that is one question that
people always bring up, is you

2202
02:04:57,720 --> 02:04:59,960
use the theory of evolution to
show that we don't see the

2203
02:04:59,960 --> 02:05:02,200
truth.
Right.

2204
02:05:02,200 --> 02:05:04,040
We don't the reality, we don't
see reality as it is.

2205
02:05:04,040 --> 02:05:06,120
But then that means that
evolution isn't true and so you

2206
02:05:06,120 --> 02:05:11,000
shot yourself in the foot and
and so I I I should address that

2207
02:05:11,560 --> 02:05:16,680
just briefly.
The idea is, is this, this is

2208
02:05:16,680 --> 02:05:20,800
the way science progresses.
This is nothing special about

2209
02:05:21,400 --> 02:05:23,680
me.
This is the way you put down a

2210
02:05:23,680 --> 02:05:27,400
scientific theory and you make
it mathematically precise.

2211
02:05:28,000 --> 02:05:32,600
And when you do that, then the
mathematics tells you what the

2212
02:05:32,600 --> 02:05:36,880
theory can do, but it also tells
you where the theory ends.

2213
02:05:37,440 --> 02:05:40,480
Einstein's theory ends at 10 to
the -33 centimeters.

2214
02:05:41,040 --> 02:05:45,720
Well, that's all I've I'm not
doing anything weird or special.

2215
02:05:45,800 --> 02:05:47,240
This is just the way science
works.

2216
02:05:47,480 --> 02:05:50,520
You take the mathematics of the
theory and you ask the the

2217
02:05:50,520 --> 02:05:53,160
mathematics what's the limit of
this theory?

2218
02:05:53,280 --> 02:05:55,760
And the mathematics comes back
and says here's the limit 10 to

2219
02:05:55,760 --> 02:05:58,320
the -33 centimeters.
Well, in the case of evolution,

2220
02:05:58,440 --> 02:06:02,520
it also says the same thing.
The limit is the very assumption

2221
02:06:02,520 --> 02:06:06,480
of space-time and objects in
space organisms in space-time

2222
02:06:06,480 --> 02:06:08,480
competing for resources in
space-time.

2223
02:06:10,280 --> 02:06:15,640
That ain't true.
And in the Einstein's case, the

2224
02:06:15,640 --> 02:06:18,000
mathematics comes back and says
space-time.

2225
02:06:19,000 --> 02:06:20,480
That ain't it.
It's not the it's not

2226
02:06:20,480 --> 02:06:22,520
fundamental.
In fact, it falls apart at 10 to

2227
02:06:22,520 --> 02:06:24,120
the -33.
You're going to need to find a

2228
02:06:24,120 --> 02:06:28,800
structure outside of space-time.
Evolution is saying the same

2229
02:06:28,800 --> 02:06:30,400
thing.
So we're not shooting ourselves

2230
02:06:30,400 --> 02:06:33,320
in the foot.
You have to understand this is

2231
02:06:33,320 --> 02:06:40,280
the way science progresses.
The mathematics doesn't prove

2232
02:06:40,280 --> 02:06:43,920
that the assumptions are right.
The mathematics tells you the

2233
02:06:43,920 --> 02:06:47,760
limits of the assumptions.
That's that's so.

2234
02:06:47,920 --> 02:06:51,760
So I just want to really it.
It's not a minor point, so it is

2235
02:06:51,760 --> 02:06:55,280
how science progresses.
It's almost like going back to

2236
02:06:55,280 --> 02:06:58,080
the old way of thinking like
falsification in a sense.

2237
02:06:58,080 --> 02:07:01,160
It's it's kind of you're you're
looking for that sort of that

2238
02:07:01,280 --> 02:07:05,200
that cap that that that end
point where does end.

2239
02:07:05,240 --> 02:07:06,440
Yeah.
Where does?

2240
02:07:06,920 --> 02:07:09,280
Well, and and in fact if you
think about it that's what

2241
02:07:09,280 --> 02:07:10,960
scientists should be looking for
all the time.

2242
02:07:10,960 --> 02:07:14,160
Is like we know that this is not
the theory of everything, right?

2243
02:07:14,160 --> 02:07:16,720
We know it.
If I can write it down.

2244
02:07:16,760 --> 02:07:18,120
It's not the theory of
everything.

2245
02:07:18,720 --> 02:07:25,600
So do I want to be an idiot and
and and just or do I want to be

2246
02:07:25,600 --> 02:07:28,360
the explorer?
So let me be the explorer.

2247
02:07:28,360 --> 02:07:30,440
Where's the limit.
So let's find as soon as

2248
02:07:30,440 --> 02:07:32,960
possible what the limits of this
theory are and then go to the

2249
02:07:32,960 --> 02:07:34,600
next one and then explore its
limits.

2250
02:07:35,120 --> 02:07:38,440
That's that's fun.
It's it's boring to just get

2251
02:07:38,440 --> 02:07:40,840
stuck in the same paradigm the
whole time.

2252
02:07:41,680 --> 02:07:44,120
And I'll just say 11 short thing
too.

2253
02:07:44,120 --> 02:07:45,640
And this question always comes
up.

2254
02:07:45,920 --> 02:07:47,520
Take your time, Don.
I've got, I've got time.

2255
02:07:47,520 --> 02:07:51,160
Don't worry.
OK, well, I won't.

2256
02:07:51,480 --> 02:07:53,960
I won't perseverate though.
Just one last thing.

2257
02:07:53,960 --> 02:08:03,120
A lot of people will say, look,
you're you're saying that the

2258
02:08:03,120 --> 02:08:07,440
moon is just an object in my
headset and it doesn't exist

2259
02:08:07,440 --> 02:08:11,080
when no one looks and you create
it when you look.

2260
02:08:11,680 --> 02:08:14,680
No, give me a break.
Everybody goes, give me a break.

2261
02:08:14,680 --> 02:08:22,440
So suppose I, I take, I don't
know, an apple and I stick it in

2262
02:08:22,440 --> 02:08:27,160
the ground and and leave it
there for for five weeks and

2263
02:08:27,160 --> 02:08:29,440
then you come and dig it up,
you're going to find a rotten

2264
02:08:29,440 --> 02:08:32,200
apple.
Well doesn't that prove that the

2265
02:08:32,200 --> 02:08:35,120
apple was there the whole time
and it and and it would it

2266
02:08:35,120 --> 02:08:39,120
existed even when you weren't
looking right and and and rot

2267
02:08:39,120 --> 02:08:43,160
was going on when you weren't
looking and and and so this

2268
02:08:43,160 --> 02:08:48,480
whole nonsense.
Well and and all I can say is if

2269
02:08:48,480 --> 02:08:51,960
you questions like that one and
there are many many I get dozens

2270
02:08:51,960 --> 02:08:59,160
of questions all the time right
in all those questions the way

2271
02:08:59,160 --> 02:09:02,960
to answer it for yourself is to
just put it into virtual

2272
02:09:02,960 --> 02:09:04,640
reality.
So imagine you're playing a

2273
02:09:04,640 --> 02:09:07,680
virtual reality game, a
multiplayer virtual reality game

2274
02:09:07,840 --> 02:09:10,920
and try to put your question
into that realm and then you'll

2275
02:09:10,920 --> 02:09:15,400
see how it how it works.
So, so so for example I'm

2276
02:09:15,400 --> 02:09:22,480
playing multiplayer tennis and I
hit the tennis ball to my my

2277
02:09:22,480 --> 02:09:26,640
partner over on the other side
and and I say, you know the the

2278
02:09:26,640 --> 02:09:30,200
tennis ball only exists when I
look it's it's just, you know,

2279
02:09:30,280 --> 02:09:33,280
pixels in my my headset.
And the other guy says Oh no,

2280
02:09:33,280 --> 02:09:36,160
no, no, the the the tennis ball
is is real.

2281
02:09:36,160 --> 02:09:39,560
So and he he takes, so the both
guys are in virtual reality.

2282
02:09:39,560 --> 02:09:41,080
He takes the tennis ball and he
drops and he looks away.

2283
02:09:41,240 --> 02:09:43,440
He says, I can't see it.
But Don, can you see the tennis

2284
02:09:43,440 --> 02:09:44,640
ball?
And I say, yeah, I can see it.

2285
02:09:45,000 --> 02:09:49,280
So that proves it really exists.
No, I just it doesn't prove that

2286
02:09:50,160 --> 02:09:52,400
I turn my head and I'm rendering
it because I'm looking at it.

2287
02:09:53,640 --> 02:09:56,600
So it doesn't exist.
Well, well then he says well,

2288
02:09:56,600 --> 02:09:59,320
but, but when I hit the tennis
ball to you, did you hit the

2289
02:09:59,320 --> 02:10:02,440
same tennis ball back to me?
So it it proves that there's

2290
02:10:02,440 --> 02:10:05,520
just one no, no, I have a tennis
ball that I'm experiencing in my

2291
02:10:05,520 --> 02:10:06,480
headset.
You have a tennis ball that

2292
02:10:06,480 --> 02:10:07,680
you're experiencing your
headset.

2293
02:10:07,920 --> 02:10:11,040
Those are so, so all the
questions that people have

2294
02:10:11,320 --> 02:10:15,360
before you, before you write me
an e-mail about about it, first

2295
02:10:15,360 --> 02:10:17,960
try it out yourself.
See if you can solve the problem

2296
02:10:17,960 --> 02:10:22,160
yourself by putting it into
virtual reality, a multiplayer

2297
02:10:22,160 --> 02:10:26,160
game, and see if you Here's the
key, here's the key idea.

2298
02:10:26,880 --> 02:10:29,240
There is something that exists
independent of what you see in

2299
02:10:29,240 --> 02:10:32,200
your headset.
There is something in that

2300
02:10:32,200 --> 02:10:33,640
analogy.
It's some supercomputer that's

2301
02:10:33,640 --> 02:10:36,040
coordinating the game.
But there's no tennis ball in

2302
02:10:36,040 --> 02:10:38,120
that supercomputer.
There's nothing green or or

2303
02:10:38,160 --> 02:10:39,880
fuzzy or round in that, you
know.

2304
02:10:40,600 --> 02:10:42,720
So there is something that
exists independent of you, but

2305
02:10:42,720 --> 02:10:47,440
it's utterly unlike anything
that you see or experience,

2306
02:10:47,520 --> 02:10:50,240
utterly unlike that.
That's the only thing you have

2307
02:10:50,240 --> 02:10:52,080
to wrap.
Once you wrap your head around

2308
02:10:52,080 --> 02:10:56,920
that idea and use the VR and
supercomputer analogy, you'll be

2309
02:10:56,920 --> 02:10:59,800
able to solve your own puzzles
and then you'll see how fun this

2310
02:10:59,800 --> 02:11:03,000
this approach is.
But until then I I see people

2311
02:11:03,200 --> 02:11:05,800
they they can't really start to
explore because they just see

2312
02:11:05,800 --> 02:11:09,040
these obvious contradictions
that they think are are are make

2313
02:11:09,040 --> 02:11:13,560
the whole thing a non starter.
So just put it into virtual

2314
02:11:13,560 --> 02:11:16,400
reality and then you can start
to really explore the space.

2315
02:11:16,840 --> 02:11:20,520
And another way to sort of see
that, well, another way I I had

2316
02:11:20,520 --> 02:11:23,120
a question Don and I forgot to
ask you about that was was also

2317
02:11:24,080 --> 02:11:26,480
when.
As two perceivers are sort of

2318
02:11:26,480 --> 02:11:30,680
seeing something, the the fact
that they're able to render the

2319
02:11:30,680 --> 02:11:34,720
sort of same thing in in within
your theory is actually because

2320
02:11:34,720 --> 02:11:38,720
in essence this is still coming
from one sort of the one.

2321
02:11:38,960 --> 02:11:40,960
So.
So it's not, it's not like they

2322
02:11:41,240 --> 02:11:43,920
wouldn't have access to the same
information at some point.

2323
02:11:43,920 --> 02:11:46,280
It's kind of like you do have
the shared access to

2324
02:11:46,280 --> 02:11:50,880
information.
Within that's that's absolutely

2325
02:11:50,880 --> 02:11:52,440
right.
It's like the supercomputer in

2326
02:11:52,440 --> 02:11:54,800
the VR analogy is the shared
access.

2327
02:11:55,360 --> 02:12:00,560
And the one, the one little
proviso I would give is that we

2328
02:12:00,560 --> 02:12:03,160
actually don't know that others
are perceiving the world like

2329
02:12:03,160 --> 02:12:04,640
us, right.
There's something called

2330
02:12:04,640 --> 02:12:06,680
synesthesia.
Yes, yes.

2331
02:12:06,880 --> 02:12:07,560
Where?
Where?

2332
02:12:07,560 --> 02:12:08,520
Where?
You know us.

2333
02:12:08,600 --> 02:12:10,720
Yeah, you you probably know
better than I do where where

2334
02:12:10,720 --> 02:12:16,400
people have experiences that you
know, like Carol Steen and

2335
02:12:16,400 --> 02:12:19,640
everything that she hears, every
bit of music that she hears.

2336
02:12:19,640 --> 02:12:24,160
She sees a geometric object with
a specific shape and a specific

2337
02:12:25,080 --> 02:12:27,160
texture to the surfaces and
colors and so forth.

2338
02:12:27,520 --> 02:12:29,680
And I've actually met her and
talked with her in person about

2339
02:12:29,680 --> 02:12:31,760
about this.
So, I mean, she's living in a

2340
02:12:31,760 --> 02:12:35,480
world that I wouldn't have
imagined it was possible.

2341
02:12:35,720 --> 02:12:38,360
She hears music and every time
she hears the same piece of

2342
02:12:38,360 --> 02:12:43,320
music she sees the same object
doing a complicated movement

2343
02:12:44,160 --> 02:12:46,640
with a a beautiful surface on it
and so forth.

2344
02:12:47,200 --> 02:12:51,200
Well, and and there was guy
named Michael something rather

2345
02:12:51,200 --> 02:12:54,920
who who everything he tasted
with his mouth.

2346
02:12:55,240 --> 02:12:59,520
He felt with his hands so Mint
felt like a tall, cold, cool

2347
02:12:59,520 --> 02:13:02,080
column of glass.
Yeah, you get some patients who

2348
02:13:02,080 --> 02:13:06,680
can who who when they read they
they can smell it or or hear

2349
02:13:06,680 --> 02:13:08,680
sounds.
It's it's it's incredible.

2350
02:13:08,680 --> 02:13:13,040
Some of the Synthesia patients
that that's right so so so

2351
02:13:13,040 --> 02:13:17,080
you're you're right that because
we we share this the one we can

2352
02:13:17,080 --> 02:13:20,160
have some expectation of
understanding what the other

2353
02:13:20,160 --> 02:13:23,040
world what what the other
person's world is like.

2354
02:13:23,360 --> 02:13:26,240
But I just want to put out this
proviso that don't think that

2355
02:13:26,240 --> 02:13:29,520
you know everything it it may be
that their world is very, very

2356
02:13:29,520 --> 02:13:32,120
different than you you would
ever We have good experimental

2357
02:13:32,120 --> 02:13:37,680
reasons to believe that our
visual and sensory worlds vary

2358
02:13:37,680 --> 02:13:40,040
from person to person, and
sometimes dramatically.

2359
02:13:41,200 --> 02:13:44,160
I was going to say because in
that case someone who's

2360
02:13:44,400 --> 02:13:50,480
schizophrenic or has fully blown
psychosis has in has almost left

2361
02:13:50,600 --> 02:13:54,080
that headset in a different way
or.

2362
02:13:54,840 --> 02:13:58,320
How would you sort of explore
that within this like a fully

2363
02:13:58,320 --> 02:14:00,760
blown psychosis where the person
is completely out of touch,

2364
02:14:01,040 --> 02:14:05,720
there is no link at all to what
you and I are experiencing

2365
02:14:05,720 --> 02:14:09,840
within our headsets.
How was that sort of explored

2366
02:14:09,840 --> 02:14:13,200
within this analogy?
Of course now now I'm I'm a

2367
02:14:13,200 --> 02:14:15,280
complete amateur.
I'm not a psychiatrist or or

2368
02:14:15,280 --> 02:14:16,280
anything like that.
So so.

2369
02:14:16,400 --> 02:14:20,000
With that, everyone knows this
is a philosophy slash podcast

2370
02:14:20,000 --> 02:14:23,880
that's not really a mental
health podcast direct exactly

2371
02:14:24,000 --> 02:14:27,600
right so so with the SO then
I'll then I'll speculate given

2372
02:14:27,600 --> 02:14:29,240
that.
So I'm not not a professional

2373
02:14:29,240 --> 02:14:35,320
psychiatrist but it seems to me
that going back to the idea of

2374
02:14:35,320 --> 02:14:41,320
the one and the One plunging in
with both feet and losing itself

2375
02:14:42,760 --> 02:14:44,960
but giving itself.
We we didn't talk about this but

2376
02:14:44,960 --> 02:14:49,640
I think the one gives itself
little nudges to wake up and and

2377
02:14:49,640 --> 02:14:52,520
that's that's the suffering that
happens when we when I get

2378
02:14:52,520 --> 02:14:56,160
identified with myself and I'm
trying to be important and I and

2379
02:14:56,160 --> 02:14:58,560
my ego is trying to clash with
other people.

2380
02:14:58,560 --> 02:15:00,800
I'm trying to show I'm smarter
than you or better than you or

2381
02:15:00,800 --> 02:15:03,400
faster than you or have more
money or better cars.

2382
02:15:03,720 --> 02:15:07,760
All all of that competition that
that we do is painful.

2383
02:15:08,080 --> 02:15:11,960
It causes causes suffering.
It it's it's the the very act of

2384
02:15:12,040 --> 02:15:15,840
of me being in any way hostile
to anybody else.

2385
02:15:15,880 --> 02:15:19,360
It causes me suffering and and
to be competitive in any way

2386
02:15:19,360 --> 02:15:23,200
like that is is is causes me
suffering and that suffering is

2387
02:15:23,200 --> 02:15:26,920
is the wake up call to the
truth, which is that person that

2388
02:15:26,920 --> 02:15:31,160
I'm competing against, that I'm
angry with is me.

2389
02:15:31,840 --> 02:15:37,920
That is me under a different
avatar now, but and I'm gently,

2390
02:15:37,920 --> 02:15:42,240
I've got the suffering as a
gentle way of and sometimes not

2391
02:15:42,240 --> 02:15:47,160
so gentle as later on of getting
me to wake up and and and and

2392
02:15:47,160 --> 02:15:49,000
to.
But that's part of the whole

2393
02:15:49,000 --> 02:15:53,360
thing of waking up to who I am.
And so the psychosis I think are

2394
02:15:53,360 --> 02:15:56,640
cases where the suffering has
gotten in many cases, you know

2395
02:15:56,640 --> 02:15:59,480
sometimes it's you can say this
person had a tumor and and

2396
02:15:59,480 --> 02:16:01,600
that's why, I mean we look in
there and there's a tumor,

2397
02:16:01,600 --> 02:16:03,560
right.
So, so that that the tumor is

2398
02:16:03,560 --> 02:16:05,920
sort of the headset version of
saying that there's something

2399
02:16:05,920 --> 02:16:07,800
wrong in the network of
conscious agents, something

2400
02:16:07,800 --> 02:16:11,200
went, you know, something went
haywire in that that headset

2401
02:16:11,280 --> 02:16:14,360
construction.
But in this other approach I'm

2402
02:16:14,360 --> 02:16:23,200
thinking about is that the the
the extreme psychological pain

2403
02:16:23,200 --> 02:16:27,360
that you get with extreme
psychiatric patients is really

2404
02:16:27,360 --> 02:16:33,559
the one using suffering of an
extreme kind to wake itself up,

2405
02:16:33,680 --> 02:16:37,559
to wake that particular itself
in that avatar, to wake up and

2406
02:16:37,559 --> 02:16:44,280
to recognize that there's
nothing to worry about, right?

2407
02:16:44,760 --> 02:16:47,320
If you're in the virtual reality
game and you believe you're the

2408
02:16:47,320 --> 02:16:50,719
avatar, if someone's shooting up
the avatar it's scary as hell.

2409
02:16:51,400 --> 02:16:54,160
But if if you're if you go into
the game and you know why avatar

2410
02:16:54,160 --> 02:16:56,280
is just an avatar, you know they
can shoot it up all.

2411
02:16:56,799 --> 02:16:57,959
It's a completely different
game.

2412
02:16:58,160 --> 02:17:02,360
There's no reason to be upset.
So so that is that kind is is

2413
02:17:02,360 --> 02:17:08,160
waking up to oh this is just AVR
game and the psychosis patient

2414
02:17:08,160 --> 02:17:11,360
in the the one I'm talking about
is the one who hasn't who's who

2415
02:17:11,360 --> 02:17:14,280
needs to wake up but is is still
so identified with the avatar

2416
02:17:14,440 --> 02:17:16,440
that they're in.
They're in a world of pain in a

2417
02:17:16,440 --> 02:17:18,200
world of of fear in the world
of.

2418
02:17:18,400 --> 02:17:22,080
So that's, again, amateur hour
from Hoffman.

2419
02:17:22,080 --> 02:17:24,680
I'm not a psychiatrist, yeah,
but just kind of.

2420
02:17:25,360 --> 02:17:27,320
Don't I Don't worry.
I always put at the bottom of my

2421
02:17:27,320 --> 02:17:31,040
videos a disclaimer to let
people know that this is more of

2422
02:17:32,559 --> 02:17:35,840
a a, a, an educational podcast
rather than A and something you

2423
02:17:35,840 --> 02:17:38,400
apply to your life.
This is not us trying to be

2424
02:17:38,400 --> 02:17:40,639
gurus, everyone.
So just don't do not.

2425
02:17:41,160 --> 02:17:43,719
Yeah, and as a doctor myself,
I'm I'm not.

2426
02:17:43,719 --> 02:17:46,040
This is not me coming out trying
to give people advice either.

2427
02:17:46,040 --> 02:17:49,920
This is my intellectual pursuit.
Trying to understand these

2428
02:17:49,920 --> 02:17:53,879
questions that I love so much.
So just so everyone knows that's

2429
02:17:53,879 --> 02:17:56,160
just I would disclaim it for the
moment.

2430
02:17:56,280 --> 02:17:58,000
Don, do you?
This is not professional advice.

2431
02:17:58,040 --> 02:18:00,480
Yes, this is not professionalize
at all, Don.

2432
02:18:00,480 --> 02:18:04,520
Do you ever get worried or
concerned about the fact maybe

2433
02:18:04,520 --> 02:18:06,120
even, I don't know, do you even
like it?

2434
02:18:06,120 --> 02:18:11,360
But maybe that you maybe
Bernardo or you guys within this

2435
02:18:11,400 --> 02:18:14,360
idealist?
It's almost like a new wave of

2436
02:18:14,360 --> 02:18:15,920
idealism that's taking place
right now.

2437
02:18:15,959 --> 02:18:19,040
It's quite fascinating to see as
well from from my perspective

2438
02:18:19,600 --> 02:18:22,799
doing this podcast and taking
part in these conversations.

2439
02:18:23,280 --> 02:18:27,040
Do you ever get concerned that
you guys are slowly growing a a

2440
02:18:27,559 --> 02:18:31,639
cult or maybe that there's the
people are going to take some of

2441
02:18:31,639 --> 02:18:35,840
this and and take it way beyond
you guys like to to a point

2442
02:18:35,840 --> 02:18:38,799
where they form their own sort
of dogma type groups.

2443
02:18:39,160 --> 02:18:40,959
Do you does that ever concern
you in any way?

2444
02:18:42,760 --> 02:18:47,040
Well, that's.
A very interesting question, I

2445
02:18:47,040 --> 02:18:52,160
know, but I guess it does in in
the sense that my efforts are to

2446
02:18:52,160 --> 02:18:58,799
make it a mathematical science,
which still doesn't preclude A

2447
02:18:58,799 --> 02:19:03,000
cultish kind of approach, but it
it really helps to avoid it

2448
02:19:03,320 --> 02:19:06,360
when?
When when you don't just have

2449
02:19:06,360 --> 02:19:09,920
words that you're pushing
around, but you have a

2450
02:19:09,920 --> 02:19:14,040
mathematical theory that can
slap you in the face when when

2451
02:19:14,240 --> 02:19:17,200
you misinterpret it.
Right, And when it actually says

2452
02:19:17,200 --> 02:19:20,360
no to you.
Like when Einstein thinks that

2453
02:19:20,480 --> 02:19:22,520
there are no black holes and the
theory comes back and slaps them

2454
02:19:22,520 --> 02:19:25,559
and says no, there are black
holes, live with it.

2455
02:19:26,000 --> 02:19:29,000
So, so that's.
So that's what I want is is a

2456
02:19:29,040 --> 02:19:34,080
mathematically precise idealism,
but I call it conscious realism

2457
02:19:34,520 --> 02:19:37,559
because of some philosophical
baggage that idealism brings.

2458
02:19:37,559 --> 02:19:41,600
But so I call it conscious
realism, but it's it's a version

2459
02:19:41,600 --> 02:19:45,639
of idealism.
I want a mathematically precise.

2460
02:19:45,840 --> 02:19:49,200
My goal is to get this thing
launched with enough

2461
02:19:49,200 --> 02:19:54,280
mathematical rigor and enough
momentum that it will take off

2462
02:19:54,280 --> 02:19:57,480
and and be a real science, a
real mathematical idealist

2463
02:19:57,480 --> 02:20:02,440
science.
I see idealism in the past has

2464
02:20:02,840 --> 02:20:07,280
had something of an anti science
flair to it.

2465
02:20:07,280 --> 02:20:13,080
I mean Berkeley in some sense.
Brought up his idealism as as a

2466
02:20:13,080 --> 02:20:17,040
reply to the the physicalism
that he perceived of Newton's

2467
02:20:17,560 --> 02:20:18,560
science.
It was.

2468
02:20:18,800 --> 02:20:21,120
It was.
And yeah and partly had God as

2469
02:20:21,120 --> 02:20:24,840
part of as his main sort of core
to the to the old thesis that

2470
02:20:26,080 --> 02:20:30,360
that's right and it was sort of
a an it came out of an

2471
02:20:30,360 --> 02:20:36,200
opposition to the the Newtonian
science and and many idealist

2472
02:20:37,320 --> 02:20:40,800
theories.
In fact I'm not really sure if I

2473
02:20:40,800 --> 02:20:45,360
know of any like idealists who
have said now let's let's go and

2474
02:20:45,360 --> 02:20:47,160
make this a mathematical
scientific theory.

2475
02:20:47,160 --> 02:20:51,800
I mean this is this is not there
are there are some quantum

2476
02:20:51,800 --> 02:20:56,200
physicists who early on who
interpreted quantum mechanics in

2477
02:20:56,200 --> 02:21:00,680
idealist ways, Von Neumann and
others gave idealist

2478
02:21:00,680 --> 02:21:03,240
interpretations.
But that's that's not what I'm

2479
02:21:03,240 --> 02:21:05,280
talking about.
Someone's saying let's take

2480
02:21:05,280 --> 02:21:07,960
idealist ideas and make a
mathematically precise

2481
02:21:07,960 --> 02:21:10,240
scientific theory out of
idealism.

2482
02:21:10,720 --> 02:21:14,800
And you know, Kant of course did
a lot of deep philosophical

2483
02:21:14,800 --> 02:21:17,400
ideas about idealism, but that's
different from making

2484
02:21:17,960 --> 02:21:21,960
mathematically precise theories.
And so there there's been this

2485
02:21:21,960 --> 02:21:29,280
anti science flavour to a lot of
idealist thinking and and this

2486
02:21:29,280 --> 02:21:33,080
is it's I think not necessary
and in fact it's it's it's it's

2487
02:21:33,080 --> 02:21:36,560
not helpful.
I think that's idealism is the

2488
02:21:36,560 --> 02:21:38,920
next step and we need to make it
mathematically precise and show

2489
02:21:38,920 --> 02:21:43,760
that physicalism emerges as a as
a headset, as as a projection of

2490
02:21:43,760 --> 02:21:46,920
a much much deeper theory.
So that by the way we don't

2491
02:21:46,920 --> 02:21:48,480
throw away our physicalist
theories.

2492
02:21:48,880 --> 02:21:53,200
We show them a special cases of
deeper theories and we use our

2493
02:21:53,280 --> 02:21:57,320
their physicalist theories as
tests for you know, we're making

2494
02:21:57,320 --> 02:22:00,760
new theories beyond space-time.
How do we test them?

2495
02:22:01,120 --> 02:22:03,520
We test them in space-time.
We test them like with

2496
02:22:03,520 --> 02:22:06,160
scattering experiments where we
know the physics or the

2497
02:22:06,160 --> 02:22:08,440
scattering so so we don't throw
away our old theories.

2498
02:22:08,600 --> 02:22:12,360
We are grateful for quantum
field theory and general

2499
02:22:12,360 --> 02:22:14,280
relative.
We're grateful for evolution of

2500
02:22:14,280 --> 02:22:16,040
a natural selection.
These are wonderful theories.

2501
02:22:16,480 --> 02:22:21,040
They are going to tell us when
we make mistakes with our

2502
02:22:21,040 --> 02:22:23,520
theories outside of space-time,
they will come back and slap us

2503
02:22:23,520 --> 02:22:26,040
in the face because we have to
protect them back into their

2504
02:22:26,040 --> 02:22:27,360
domain.
And they say well now you're in

2505
02:22:27,360 --> 02:22:33,120
our domain and I say no or I say
maybe maybe you you you you can

2506
02:22:33,120 --> 02:22:38,040
continue in that direction.
You're not wrong yet so so so

2507
02:22:38,040 --> 02:22:45,640
that's the the so ultimately I
think idealism needs to be and

2508
02:22:45,640 --> 02:22:47,600
and and I'm trying to work
toward that end to make it a a

2509
02:22:47,880 --> 02:22:51,040
mathematically precise science
and then I won't have to worry

2510
02:22:51,040 --> 02:22:53,240
about the cult thing that we
talked about earlier and and so

2511
02:22:53,360 --> 02:22:54,880
forth.
The reason why I asked that is

2512
02:22:54,880 --> 02:22:57,840
because you see it when when you
look at the comments and the way

2513
02:22:57,840 --> 02:23:01,400
people talk about your work,
Bonardo, etcetera.

2514
02:23:01,400 --> 02:23:05,720
I mean the way some people are
really, really in love with it,

2515
02:23:05,720 --> 02:23:09,760
you know, they it it it is their
anti anxiety cure.

2516
02:23:09,760 --> 02:23:12,800
They listen to you guys to kind
of get there to to get

2517
02:23:12,800 --> 02:23:14,720
themselves out of tough
situations.

2518
02:23:14,720 --> 02:23:17,640
They they use this as a
spiritual escape.

2519
02:23:18,200 --> 02:23:20,640
And I've seen comments and I I
like them I always tell them

2520
02:23:20,640 --> 02:23:23,520
like it's great it's it's it's
great that you guys have such an

2521
02:23:23,520 --> 02:23:26,400
impact but at that point you do
come with a lot of power.

2522
02:23:27,440 --> 02:23:31,080
I I recently read a paper by
someone it I can't remember who

2523
02:23:31,080 --> 02:23:35,400
it was by but it was about
Bernardo Kastrup's idealism and

2524
02:23:35,720 --> 02:23:39,240
and and I couldn't remember who
wrote it but it it it very it

2525
02:23:39,240 --> 02:23:42,560
spoke about this it was it was
against it of course but trying

2526
02:23:42,560 --> 02:23:46,720
to dissect the fact that it's
almost cult like it it's kind of

2527
02:23:46,720 --> 02:23:51,160
like a.
A group of thinkers coming

2528
02:23:51,160 --> 02:23:53,680
together forming this new wave.
It's almost like the new age

2529
02:23:53,680 --> 02:23:57,480
atheism movement that happened
with Dawkins Dennett back in the

2530
02:23:57,480 --> 02:24:01,120
day, but except in a in a shift
towards a positive movement.

2531
02:24:01,120 --> 02:24:06,200
So like love.
Universal Mind is 1 very, very

2532
02:24:06,200 --> 02:24:08,000
cult like.
And I'm not accusing you of

2533
02:24:08,000 --> 02:24:10,280
this, but I'm just saying you
can actually see it in the

2534
02:24:10,280 --> 02:24:12,240
comment sections.
You can tell people do really

2535
02:24:12,240 --> 02:24:15,760
love your work and and there's a
big there's a big need for it

2536
02:24:15,760 --> 02:24:20,040
and want for it clearly.
Well I I I would I would say for

2537
02:24:20,040 --> 02:24:25,600
those who who who love it.
The best thing that you can do

2538
02:24:26,560 --> 02:24:31,360
is if if you have the talents,
is to study the mathematics of

2539
02:24:31,360 --> 02:24:33,560
it and contribute to the
mathematics and push it forward.

2540
02:24:34,080 --> 02:24:38,520
Or if you don't yourself have
that talent and few of us do

2541
02:24:39,520 --> 02:24:42,400
find a friend who does and get
them.

2542
02:24:43,040 --> 02:24:50,960
The way to really to really help
this is to move the science

2543
02:24:50,960 --> 02:24:53,200
forward.
As we move the science forward,

2544
02:24:53,560 --> 02:24:56,400
if it continues to give us
psychological comfort,

2545
02:24:56,400 --> 02:24:59,200
fantastic.
If it prods us in ways that

2546
02:24:59,200 --> 02:25:01,240
we're not comfortable with, so
be it.

2547
02:25:01,520 --> 02:25:06,280
We have to go wherever truth
leads us or at least the

2548
02:25:06,280 --> 02:25:08,400
projection of truth that we can
see leads us.

2549
02:25:09,040 --> 02:25:14,280
So that's that's what I would
suggest is, is I absolutely will

2550
02:25:14,280 --> 02:25:18,840
say my thoughts on this are baby
steps and everything that I've

2551
02:25:18,840 --> 02:25:24,000
said are baby steps.
It's in just a few years,

2552
02:25:24,000 --> 02:25:27,480
hopefully even within my
lifetime, everything I'm saying

2553
02:25:27,480 --> 02:25:29,920
will be seen as trivial compared
to what we've discovered.

2554
02:25:30,200 --> 02:25:34,000
Let's move the science forward
beyond my trivial ideas right

2555
02:25:34,000 --> 02:25:35,840
now.
Let's get this thing into a real

2556
02:25:36,040 --> 02:25:40,280
substantial science.
And I mean it, it would be

2557
02:25:40,280 --> 02:25:41,680
crazy.
I mean the the more you guys

2558
02:25:41,680 --> 02:25:45,520
find out the more you see you
you you could almost be seen as.

2559
02:25:45,920 --> 02:25:51,600
As the link between US and the
one Because you're going to take

2560
02:25:51,600 --> 02:25:54,040
us closer.
You're going to take us closer

2561
02:25:54,040 --> 02:25:57,800
to us all together.
No, it's just the one talking to

2562
02:25:57,800 --> 02:25:59,360
himself.
Yeah, pretty much you.

2563
02:25:59,360 --> 02:26:02,440
You're taking us closer to us.
That's right.

2564
02:26:03,640 --> 02:26:04,920
It's it's beautiful all
together.

2565
02:26:04,920 --> 02:26:07,000
And don't.
Thanks so much, man.

2566
02:26:07,080 --> 02:26:09,720
It's always a pleasure.
So much fun.

2567
02:26:10,520 --> 02:26:12,200
Anything you want to say?
Anything else that you think

2568
02:26:12,200 --> 02:26:16,640
that you really just want to.
I squeezed in all the all the

2569
02:26:16,640 --> 02:26:20,400
extras I wanted to at this point
but but next time I'll probably

2570
02:26:20,400 --> 02:26:22,640
have some more things that you
know I got emails where people

2571
02:26:22,640 --> 02:26:24,640
ask questions.
So next time, absolutely I love.

2572
02:26:24,920 --> 02:26:26,720
I would say that I would love to
talk with you again.

2573
02:26:27,080 --> 02:26:29,600
No, no, I'm, I'm, I'm eager and
every time I'm going to try to

2574
02:26:29,600 --> 02:26:31,320
do something different and
obviously next time if there's

2575
02:26:31,320 --> 02:26:33,440
any new papers, if there's
anything else you want to chat

2576
02:26:33,440 --> 02:26:36,440
about specifically, we go back
in do another dissection.

2577
02:26:36,440 --> 02:26:38,400
It's it's always fun done.
It's it's it's such a

2578
02:26:38,400 --> 02:26:41,560
fascinating journey for me
personally watching from the

2579
02:26:41,560 --> 02:26:44,400
outside, watching your work,
it's it's always a pleasure and

2580
02:26:44,560 --> 02:26:46,080
I appreciate it.
Thanks so much.

2581
02:26:46,640 --> 02:26:48,080
Thank you.
And Tevin, I I just love the way

2582
02:26:48,080 --> 02:26:50,920
that you guide the conversation.
It's it's beyond expert.

2583
02:26:51,840 --> 02:26:52,760
Well done the.