Does Consciousness Survive Death? The Science of Near-Death Experiences (NDE) | Pim van Lommel

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Pam, thank you so much for
joining me today.

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Looking forward to this
conversation very much.

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You're welcome.
Pam, let's start off with your

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clinical work as a cardiologist.
You've described a moment during

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your clinical career that
sparked what we could call your

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life's question, which is how
can consciousness continue once

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the brain has stopped?
So when did that mystery first

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shift from curiosity to
conviction for you it?

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Took many years.
I like you.

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I had learned in University
Medical school that

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consciousness and product of
brain function.

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So that's what we know that's
what I was convinced of.

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So for me, my opinion was to
death as the end of everything

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we are until I met a lot of
patients who shared the ND with

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me.
So in 1986 I read a book by

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George Ritchie Returned from
Tomorrow and where he described

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as a medical student he died in
1943 of a dib of pneumonia and

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it there were no antibiotics
available.

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So he died, declared death and
his body was covered with a

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sheet.
And the nurse was so upset that

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this young medical student had
died that she was able to

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persuade the medical doctor to
give him an injection for other

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nerine right into his heart,
what was quite uncommon.

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And after 9 minutes of death he
regained consciousness.

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He had some problem to find his
body back because it was covered

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with a sheep.
But then he she had a very, very

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deep near death experience with
all the elements we know from

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Raymond Moody.
I had to read a book by Raymond

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Moody which was published in
1975.

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But because I this book, I
started to ask my patients who

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had survived A cardiac arrest if
you could remember something

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from the period of
unconsciousness.

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And then to my big surprise,
within two years after 50

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patients, 12 patients share the
NDA with me.

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And this was the moment that for
me was just a site of currosity.

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Because it should impossible to
have memories, let alone clear,

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clear consciousness, cognition,
emotions, memories for early

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childhood, the possibility of
perception out of above the life

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of the body and the brain
doesn't function at all.

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So that's why it started that we
that we started the prospective

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study in 1988 in in from till 44
consecutive survivors of cardiac

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arrest that took four years and
then another 7-8 years for the

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longitudinal study.
This study was published in The

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Lancet and during the period
that I met so many patients were

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the only that I gave more and
more convinced that there's a

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continuity of consciousness and
death is just the end of our

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body, but not the end of our
consciousness.

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So it was.
It took many years, but now I'm

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quite sure.
I'm convinced that it was wrong

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as a young doctor.
It's, it's pretty fascinating

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work because I know as a medical
doctor, when we, when we talk

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about things like this in a
philosophical manner with

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medical doctors, it's something
that's quite frowned upon or, or

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it's, it's almost like fringe
science for, for, to discuss

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this within a clinical setting.
How was that for you?

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How was it?
What was it like to to go beyond

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what we would call just generic
medicine?

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Well, it was not important what
other doctors were thinking

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about me and about our study.
There were some specialists who

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were open for it, one or two
cardiologists and one or two

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other specialists, but most of
them were not interested at all.

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And then they are silent.
Then you know enough.

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And it was not important at all
for me because I was just

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following what my heart was
telling me.

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I had to look and try to
understand what was, could be

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the cause and content of an NDE.
So that was the only important

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thing for me.
It was not about the ideas of

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other people who are usually and
still now are willful, ignorant

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and and have prejudice about
this kind of subjects.

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Yeah, In many ways, your
research asks one of the oldest

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philosophical questions, which
is what is this relationship

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between mind and matter?
How do you personally define

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consciousness after decades of
studying what appears to survive

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beyond the brain?
Yeah, I have no definition of

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consciousness and there is no
definition of conscious.

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There's so many aspects of
conscious.

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I have written an old chapter in
my book Consciousness Beyond

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Life, just what we could call
consciousness.

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So there's no definition at all.
But I never used the word the

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word mind or soul or spirit
because so many people have

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different ideas about these
words this or never use them.

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I use consciousness and enhanced
consciousness and different

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layers of enhanced
consciousness.

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That's what I'm using.
It the you just mentioned the

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study you did in 2001 and that
that Lancet study still remains

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one of the benchmarks when it
comes to NDE research.

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What you mentioned, what
convinced you to start that?

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But what surprised you most
about the data as it started to

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stream in?
Well, I was, I was just open for

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the, the results and what we
found in the theaters. 44

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consecutive survivors of card
arrest that 18% had memories on

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the periods of unconsciousness.
So they they shared an Andy with

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us and 82% did not have any
memories at all Now.

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So now we compared to two groups
with and without an NDE to see

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if we could find an explanation
why only a small percentage of

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patients report a near death
experience.

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So where we compared to duration
of cardiac arrest, 2 minutes or

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8 minutes, it didn't matter at
all.

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Compared to duration of
unconsciousness 5 minutes or

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three weeks ago, it didn't
matter at all.

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Where you have induced cardiac
arrest in electrophysiological

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studies in the Cath lab, it
usually it takes 20 to 30

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seconds to resuscitate, didn't
matter at all.

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So one of the main conclusion
was that until that time still

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mostly accepted idea that lack
of oxygen in the brain should be

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an explanation for the cause of
of the and the we could exclude.

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And also other things like the
given medications didn't matter

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at all.
Fear of death before the

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arrested psychological
explanation did it better at all

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pre knowledge that you know that
these experiences are possible

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Data better at all religion data
better or if they're atheist or

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Christian or Muslim data better
at all general or education data

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matter at all.
So the main conclusion of our

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syllabus that there was no
scientific or medical

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explanation why only 80% of
those people report in NDE.

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And interesting there are three
other prospects of studies on in

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survivors of chronic rest, one
from Bruce Grayson, one from

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Sepanipedophenica, one from
Penicillatoria with a total of

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562 survives cardiac rest.
And the conclusion all those 4

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prospective cities was there is
no medical explanation why

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people report an NDE.
So we could exclude old until

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that time given explanations,
hallucinations, dreams, side

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effects of drugs,
neurotransmitters and oxy of the

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brain etcetera, you could
exclude.

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And and PEM when it comes to
reportability, because I can

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imagine when, when you get
bombarded by critics, what one

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of the questions might be, I
mean, was the brain truly

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offline or so, So something
could be someone could ask about

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the reportability of subjective
experiences.

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How much can we trust that?
So for anyone watching or

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listening, if you, how much of
the conscious experiences, how

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confident can we be sorry that
it occurs during the cardiac

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arrest rather than moments just
before or moments right after?

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There's always a good question,
but first of all, there have not

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been too many critical comments.
There have been some skeptics or

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should say debunkers just after
my book came out in 2007 in the

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Netherlands, but usually they
don't contact me at all.

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But it's this important
question.

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How do we know that the neo
death experience happened during

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the period of our consciousness?
That that's because of the out

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of body experiences.
One of the elements there, there

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are many elements, 12 elements,
which was reported by Raymond

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Moody as well.
And one of the elements is out

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of body experience.
That is that people have a

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perception out and above their
lifeless body.

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They have IDD, they have left
their bodies as an old cult and

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they can perceive, not see, but
perceive see the 60°.

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If they see details and the and
then overview at the same time,

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they can perceive through walls.
They can see what happens to the

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other side of the hospital.
They can see what happens at

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home.
If they're trying to, to, to, to

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focus on that so and then they
can see what people are doing

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with the CPR or with during
surgery.

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They can perceive what is
happening.

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They can know what is being
told.

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They don't hear it, but you know
what is being told because you

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have driver salt transfer and
blind people blind from birth

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can ring us written about it.
They have never seen anything.

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They've never had pictures
during dreams that the first

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time in the world when they have
an ND they can perceive their

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own body.
They can see if they get through

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the the hospital walls and go
outside to see the first time

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they did trees and houses and
sun and shadows etcetera.

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So what is when you have the
corroboration of the free

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radical perceptions so details
of the CPR then you can prove

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that this and the auto body
experience happened during

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cardiac arrest.
And I have been in study done by

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Jan Holden of about 80 patients
and has recently booked the

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cells does not die and it has
128 cases of corroborated free

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radical perceptions.
And what they found is 95%.

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What was told was totally
correct was really correct.

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What happened during CPR, during
surgery, during general

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anesthesia or urine coma?
So this proves that it happens

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during cardiac arrest.
Let's let's go with this for now

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and, and, and take your blisters
on the journey with us mapping

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consciousness beyond the brain,
because you've described the

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brain not as a producer of
consciousness, but rather as a

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transceiver or interface.
Can you unpack what that

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metaphor means in scientific
terms and how it might fit or

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conflict other modern
neuroscientific theories like

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global workspace or IIT,
etcetera?

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But first of all, let's discuss
what happens to your cardiac

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arrest in brain function.
So what we know there have been

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studies on induced cardiac
arrest also, let's say in the

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past where it was SASS hole
testing of internal

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defibrillators, ICDS, but also
induced cardiac arrest in

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animals.
And we can see that in a Jewish

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character crash the people lose
consciousness within seconds.

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The blood flow to the brain in
the carotid artery is 0.

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Within one second the body
reflexes are gone, which is a

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function of the cortex of the
brain.

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The brain sample reflexes are
gone.

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With the Gacrefax you can put a
finger in someone's throat.

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The coriolor reflexes and white
and pupils who don't react to

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light are clinical findings.
There's no breathing, but the

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breathing center is close to the
brain stem, so they stop

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breathing as well.
So the clinical findings are

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what the brain doesn't focus at
all.

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And when you have the EEG
registration, but they did

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studies like social testing the
EEG flat lines within 10 to 20

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seconds.
And we know that when you have

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ACPR, it never happens that a
successful CPR is built in 20

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seconds.
It usually in the best organized

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coronary care unit will take 344
minutes.

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So all the 562 pages of the four
prospectus prospectus must have

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had a flat line EEG must have no
brain friction at all.

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And in meters between 10 and 20%
of those patients reported in

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the death experience.
So that's what we know from

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about and that's a bit, a bit
about your question about how we

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see the function of your brain,
because the other thing is the

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longitudinal study.
We can discuss it later as well

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about the transformation.
But what we know from the brain

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function that when there is no
brain finger at all, people can

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have what I've told you before,
cognition, emotions, possibility

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of perception.
They have a review of someone's

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life, they relive their whole
life, are connected to

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everything, what happens in the
past.

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Also with people, the conscious
of people in the past, they took

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something for your, for your
small sister, you know how sad

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she was.
You can have future events as

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well.
So everything happens at the

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same old where you come back in
your body.

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You can talk for a week what
happens in your life review

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while you're kind of aggressed
for 3 or 4 minutes.

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So there's no time and no space
and everything is connected at

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the moment that the brain does
not function at all.

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That means that the brain, the
conscious is not dependent on

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brain function.
The non local conscious enhanced

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consciousness.
Maybe you're sitting here now we

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have a waking consciousness and
that's dependent of a

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functioning brain and the and
the waking conscious is just a

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small part of the non local
consciousness and it's just a

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small part of the memories we
have.

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But then the brain function
stops.

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We go in the other non local
real where there is no past and

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future is is acceptable.
It's always there, everything is

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connected.
That means that this kind of

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consciousness is not dependent
on brain function.

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And to understand it, you can
compare it with the, let's say

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the mobile telephone.
At this very moment in your room

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and in my room, there are 200
telephone calls go through you

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through the walls,
electromagnetic informational

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fields.
There are hundreds of television

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programs and radio programs and
1 billion websites or YouTube

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films go through you in the form
of electromagnetic informational

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fields.
But you need an instrument to

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receive it.
You need to mobile telephone to

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get the the the call they're
meant for you.

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You mean an ATV set to receive
the program.

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But where your TV set is off,
the program is still there.

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You need another TV set to
receive it.

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And also I compare now the non
local consciousness with the

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cloud, the 1 billion websites
and YouTube preps always there.

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You need to function computer to
receive it, just part of it

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because of the code you use.
But your computer does not

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produce, it's called the I
cloud, but it receives part of

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the I cloud.
So our brain receives parts of

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this no longer consciousness and
that's what we call a filter or

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but also an interface.
So you need to function brain to

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have your waking consciousness.
But let's say in, in during

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dream, during deep sleep, the,
the brain is functioning, but

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you don't receive waking
consciousness.

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So where's your consciousness?
Where you have general

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anesthesia, your brain is
active, but you don't receive

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consciousness.
So where's your it's because

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you, the receiving capacity of
your brain is, is is out and

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where you back in your, then you
receive again parts of it.

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And the interesting thing is
that when you had the near death

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experience, the the threshold of
conscious, the receiving

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capacity of your brain and body,
it's been permanently enhanced.

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So you receive not just channel
1, your own conscious of the

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channel 2-3 or four or five of
other people.

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That means what we call the
enhanced intuitive sensitivity.

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They receive information not by
his senses or not by the body.

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And they know what people think.
They know what people feel.

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They see that someone will die
in three weeks and he dies in

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00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,400
three weeks and he knows that he
lost his mother last week, et

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cetera.
So they got information because

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00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,320
the reception ability of the
brain is permanently enhanced.

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00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:54,640
And it's also fits with the
concept of the brain as a

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receiver of interface.
And I think it's fascinating

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because today when you when
people talk about things like

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00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,520
the brain gut axis and when you
look at the enteric nervous

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system and how highly functional
it is.

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And it's interesting that we
tend to still focus on the

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cortex in the brain as this main
system for this transmission or

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receiving of events.
Because it could be then

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00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,400
plausible that the enteric, the
nervous system is just as vital

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00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,560
to some of this information
transmitting.

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00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,160
What are your thoughts on that?
Well, we did also.

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00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,280
I've told you it induced cardiac
arrest in animals and we saw

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00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,400
those animals that the deeper
friction of the brain, the

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00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,160
brainstem didn't function at all
between 10 and 20 seconds.

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00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,560
There was no reaction of the
brain stem.

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00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,440
So also the deepest structures
ever, you know, it's also let's

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say the the breathing centre
stops is also close to the brain

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00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:47,880
stem.
So we know also the deepest

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00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,120
structure of the brain do not
function at all.

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00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:55,840
And to have awakened conscious
you need many neural centres

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00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,800
working together to exchange in
information.

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00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:04,760
The global neural network of of
and that doesn't is not

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00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:07,160
available.
May you have chronic arrest?

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00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,000
Well, you partially answered
this question already, but I

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00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,360
have to ask it anyway.
The the fact that consciousness

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00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,800
isn't generated by the brain in
this case, what role does the

306
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:24,600
brain play in essence to you?
You sort of touched on it, but

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00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,640
if you were to give a general
outline of what you believe the

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00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,520
brain actually is there for in
terms of governing this

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00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,880
localized conscious wakeful
experience, well, how would you

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00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,440
summarize that?
I told you a little bit before,

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00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:41,200
I think we need to function
brain to be alive in this world

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and to to have experiences in
this physical world.

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00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,440
Because when you're out of this
body in the other non local

314
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,440
realm, you don't have the
physical experiences as we have

315
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,800
now.
So the waking consciousness and

316
00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:00,000
also the short term memories.
But it's sort of you can also

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00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,240
say the brain is a transceiver.
It transcends information from

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00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,640
body and senses towards your
consciousness and has received

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00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,240
information from your
consciousness in into your brain

320
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,080
and body.
So this young sorry, sorry PIM.

321
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,560
That's all right.
Yeah, continue.

322
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:18,600
No, no, it's all right.
I was.

323
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,360
Going to ask as a young
materialist medical Doctor Who

324
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,800
stumbles upon this and
eventually realizes OK awareness

325
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,400
may be non local, extending
beyond time and space.

326
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,880
How did that impact you and
change how you think of things

327
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,880
like memory, identity, self?
How did you perceive it prior to

328
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:40,520
this and then thereafter?
Well, it it was not from one

329
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,720
moment to the other.
And I think the most important

330
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,120
thing, when I started
cardiology, I was always

331
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:50,360
impressed by the techniques for
the echocardiography, the Cath

332
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:53,320
lab, the catheters, the, the,
the rhythm disturbance,

333
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,440
etcetera.
But at the end of my career, it

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00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,600
was 10% of techniques and 90%
was communicating with the

335
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,320
patients.
And then you know what people

336
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,600
think and you know what, what is
behind the questions as well.

337
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,480
So it's about not about a heart,
but it's about a patient who has

338
00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:13,120
fear or real problems with your
heart as well.

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00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:15,640
So it's much more than just your
organ.

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00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,400
And when you think of memory
identity yourself, how should

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00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,640
someone now perceive this
knowing that this might be a non

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00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,400
local experience?
Well, I, I think that's what

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00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,080
what we know now from, from,
from research, from the death

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00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,880
experiences.
When we are awakened, awakened

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00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,120
consciousness, then we have our
ego and the ego is depending on

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00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:42,280
our bodily functions.
That means you have jealousy

347
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,480
and, and hate and aggression
and, and, and greed, etcetera.

348
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,160
When you're out of your body,
that's gone.

349
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,000
You're just the essence of who
you are.

350
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,920
It's it's all about love, about
acceptance, about compassion,

351
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,840
about being interconnected with
other people and being connected

352
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,880
with animals, with plants, with
planet earth.

353
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,840
So you're connected with
everybody and everything because

354
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,080
that's the non local aspect of
conscious and you don't have

355
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,880
this kind of feeling.
You're raking conscious.

356
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:15,680
Except we had a near death
experience.

357
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,880
There's people with an ND talk
about what I said and has

358
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,280
intuitive sensitivity.
If you're connected with

359
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,960
everybody and everything, they
feel connected with animals and

360
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,000
plants and with other people and
they know that everything you do

361
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,400
to others will come back to you.
If you give hatred and

362
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,480
aggression towards us, it will
come back to you.

363
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:41,120
Or you give love and acceptance
and compression, it will come

364
00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:43,680
back to you.
And it is also for nature.

365
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,800
But you have problems with
nature, how we treat planet

366
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:50,200
Earth.
It will come back to us.

367
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,080
We know it already, but that's
the lessons we can learn from

368
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,640
it.
So and and so the essence of who

369
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,680
we are is we always call it self
with capital.

370
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,120
The self with capital is the
highest aspect of who we are.

371
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:07,600
And and I think that we we are
light being the self with

372
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,600
capital is a light being and
send sometimes aspects of of who

373
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:16,320
we are in this higher self
towards back to embody to learn

374
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:19,640
other lessons as well.
In sticking with this theme of

375
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,600
phenomenology and
transformation, many Indies

376
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,640
include similar events, light,
unity, unconditional love as you

377
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,680
mentioned.
Do you interpret these as

378
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,600
neurophys, psychological
archetypes, or are these

379
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,000
glimpses into the deeper
structure of consciousness

380
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:37,480
itself?
I think you just said it

381
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,280
already, because when the brain
doesn't function, it cannot be

382
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,560
neurophysiological.
Aspects of it must be aspects of

383
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,280
consciousness.
And it is, it's these are

384
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,120
universal elements.
The problem is that near death

385
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:53,040
experience is an ineffable
experience.

386
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,960
There are no words for it.
So a child will use different

387
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,320
words and interpretation as an
adult and and and Christian will

388
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,920
use different words as a Muslim
or atheist or, or for Buddhist.

389
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,600
But to try to, to, to put it to
words, this inexpert, this

390
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,720
ineffable experience as well.
And then there you have, as I

391
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:18,040
said, you have being aware of
being dead, dark space go

392
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,040
through eternal come again and
heavenly environment with with

393
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,040
beautiful landscapes and colours
and music.

394
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,800
And then meeting this his
relatives with communication and

395
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,680
and meeting being of light with
feet of unconditional laugh and

396
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,000
access to wisdom.
You understand that advance

397
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,120
quantum physics.
When you're back in your body,

398
00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:41,240
you you don't understand
anymore.

399
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,120
You can have some live review.
You can have a preview of

400
00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:48,000
someone's life.
You come, come to a border.

401
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,400
You know that when you pass
across this border, you will

402
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,640
never come back.
And there is usually a voice

403
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,360
which tells you it's not your
time yet.

404
00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:57,840
You have a task to fulfill and
then you're conscious.

405
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,840
Return it to the body with an
awful experience because you

406
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,000
again experience all the pain
and limitation of your disease.

407
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,040
When you have a traffic
accident, everything is broken.

408
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:07,800
It's awful to be back in your
body.

409
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,960
It's the psychological after
effects of Indies are quite

410
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:13,800
profound.
I mean, you mentioned all of

411
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,120
them.
Those less fear of death,

412
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,840
greater compassion or some more
sense of meaning from from your

413
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,000
experience and from the data
you've encountered, how often do

414
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,800
you see these ever fully
returning back to its previous

415
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,800
state where where someone loses
that sense of greater

416
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,120
compassion?
Has that some?

417
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:34,840
Has that been something you've
encountered, or has it been a

418
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:36,800
pretty permanent state in most
people's lives?

419
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,240
Yes, first of all, we did a
longitudinal study.

420
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,920
We saved interview two years and
and eight years after cardiac

421
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,720
arrest with all survivors of
cardiac arrest with an ND and a

422
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,840
mesh control group of patients
who survived cardiac arrest with

423
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,560
no memories, pest control group
with the same age, same gender

424
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,080
and the same time interval.
And now what we found is that

425
00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:03,200
only patients with the ND had to
classical transformation, No

426
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,960
Fear of death.
A new insight was important of

427
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,480
life so unconditional love and
compassion towards yourself

428
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,280
accept your own negative aspects
we all have and then towards

429
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,880
others and towards nature and
they're more interested in

430
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,680
spirituality and the third
aspect is enhanced their

431
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,920
truthful sensitivity.
That means that this is the

432
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,920
objective proof of the
subjective experience because

433
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,680
only patients with an ND had
this transformation.

434
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,600
But having had an ND you try to
talk about it with with doctors.

435
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,440
They say total nonsense and
hallucination here you get

436
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,880
medication you get over it.
So usually they stop talking

437
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,680
about for years.
I've met people who have been

438
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,840
silent about it for 50 years
after first attempt to talk, to

439
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,720
share it with others.
And there's a period of

440
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,400
depression, homesickness and
loneliness.

441
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,480
So it's it's Andy is a spiritual
trauma.

442
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,880
Despite the positive content,
it's very hard to be back in

443
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,560
this material world.
I always as a joke said, when

444
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,240
you have Andy in India, you get
congratulations.

445
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,160
When you have it in Western
world, yes, yes, you're just

446
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:19,640
crazy.
And they think they're crazy.

447
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,440
They didn't know.
They don't know there's a name

448
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,040
for it.
They don't know that they're not

449
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:30,520
the only one be referred to
psychiatric institutions, but

450
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,840
they start keep talking.
But once they're here and read a

451
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:39,000
book or see it on television or
read your podcast and so it has

452
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,400
a name.
It's in their death as well.

453
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,240
And they start to accept it.
It takes years and then they

454
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,000
can't integrate it in their in
their life.

455
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,360
That means the materials world
is not important anymore.

456
00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:54,240
They don't give money is not
important.

457
00:26:56,360 --> 00:26:59,560
Society is working with them.
They become vegetarian, they

458
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,440
love nature, they love silence.
So they changed a lot.

459
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,880
And this is a permanent change.
There's after characteristic, 3

460
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,240
minutes, 3 minutes, there's a
permanent life change the rest

461
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,520
of their lives.
But first they have to accept it

462
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,160
and they have to integrate it,
and it can take years and years.

463
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,640
Yeah, it's, it's almost like
this blissful high that you

464
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,600
enter and then thereafter have
to come back to to reality.

465
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,160
It is.
It does sound pretty sad.

466
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,960
It is sad for a.
Little bit part of the goal with

467
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,760
my channel was as a as a medical
doctor myself when growing up

468
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,520
fundamentally materialist and
and then it's doing a philosophy

469
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,760
degree thereafter.
When I did that, it sort of

470
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,440
changed so many views of my own
and, and big part of this

471
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,080
podcast is to try and expose
others to to more deeper

472
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,160
philosophical thinking.
Do you think when you're

473
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,560
engaging with skeptics, do you
believe that they might be one

474
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,920
day a shared scientific language
you could use to explore these

475
00:27:57,120 --> 00:27:58,840
with people?
Or do you find it's very

476
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,520
difficult still today, after all
of this, to communicate these

477
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,960
ideas?
Well, I've hardly met any

478
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:10,160
skeptics who want to discuss it
with me and whether you're

479
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,880
whether you're Internet that
that, that I'm talking about

480
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,120
deniers and debunkers.
A sceptic is someone who wants

481
00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:19,400
to think about it, but the
debunker and the denier doesn't

482
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,120
accept.
And usually the problem is there

483
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:23,920
have been discussions also
Rupert Celtic has discussed and

484
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,760
other people have discussions
talking with a debunker or a

485
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,040
denier.
They don't know the literature.

486
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,280
They they have just prejudice
and willful Icorus.

487
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:34,840
They don't they haven't read my
book.

488
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,240
They haven't read the Lanceter.
They haven't read anything else.

489
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,800
The I've published many
articles, but also other people

490
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,880
like Bruce Grayson, Ken Ring and
other sepani, Peter Fennec have

491
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,680
been so many books.
But they have an opinion without

492
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,040
any basis of science as well.
So they have a problem.

493
00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:01,480
I don't mind if they're don't
accept my ideas, then they have

494
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,560
a problem.
I that's not my problem anymore.

495
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,200
I've learned it.
Yeah, I think there's there's

496
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,320
nothing worse than formulating
it conclusion about something

497
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,320
without actually sifting through
the data and and actually

498
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:13,920
reading the person's work before
making.

499
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,600
I will never want to convince
anybody.

500
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,600
It's up to them if they want to
be open or not.

501
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,240
And, and and you know, there are
a lot of also professors and

502
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,080
neuroscientists, etcetera.
They tell personally to me, you

503
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,720
could be right, but officially
said it's total nonsense until

504
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:31,960
they reach higher.
And then they said perhaps I was

505
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,040
wrong my whole life because they
lose their research money to

506
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:36,360
lose their position in the
university.

507
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,600
It says it's dangerous to tell
other people in this kind of

508
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,040
academic world that it could be
different as we always thought.

509
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,560
But based on this prospective
studies on the ethnic space, we

510
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:54,280
have to reconsider the never
proven hypothesis that conscious

511
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,440
is a product of brain function
and the death is just the end of

512
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,200
our body, but not the end of our
consciousness.

513
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,960
And they have.
I've been now studying it for 39

514
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,520
years.
It's so normal for me now, but

515
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,680
it was, let's say, totally new
for me when I started.

516
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,040
Yeah.
Look, do you believe then that

517
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,680
one day we might be able to
measure or detect this

518
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,280
consciousness independent of the
brain?

519
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,240
And if so, like what type of
technologies do you think might

520
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,040
make these paradigms possible?
It's impossible.

521
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,800
You cannot measure in the non
local real.

522
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,360
It's beyond the physical world,
so you cannot measure it.

523
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,160
Let's say where you measure
activity in the way you can

524
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:44,360
neural correlates and that
that's so you see activities in

525
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:50,840
the way you can measure it by
EEG or Meg or fMRI of PET scan,

526
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,080
but it doesn't say anything
about the content of

527
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,960
consciousness.
So the current material science

528
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,000
or that is true, but you can
objectify, but you can measure

529
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,920
what you duplicate, what you can
falsify.

530
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,720
Now what you think and feel your
consciousness, you cannot

531
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,440
measure, you cannot objectify,
you cannot duplicate, you cannot

532
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,440
falsify.
So consciousness does not exist

533
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,360
at all in the material science
and that's the problem.

534
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,240
So we have to to expand science
to a post material science to

535
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,720
include subjective experience.
But you cannot objectify

536
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:26,680
consciousness in the non local
realm.

537
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,920
It's always about subjective
experiences.

538
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,600
So we have change.
We have to change science to

539
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,760
include subjective experiences.
And what we did with the

540
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,960
transformation, it's a kind of
objective proof of the

541
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,440
subjective experiences.
But you cannot prove subjective

542
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,560
experience, never.
You have to accept it.

543
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,000
How when you look at your work
and and your current view of the

544
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,400
mind body problem, let's say,
how does your work sit within

545
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,680
this long tradition of
philosophical theories?

546
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,520
Is it a monist theory?
Is a dual aspect theory?

547
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,720
What?
How would you describe this as a

548
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,600
philosophical?
Yeah, I, I'm always relucted to

549
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,880
give it a name.
Let's say it has been in all

550
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,720
human history.
It has been said in Buddhism, it

551
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,680
has been said in the Vedas and
the Upanishads, in Hinduism.

552
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,880
It has been said that the
Kabbalah has been agnostic

553
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:26,000
Christianity.
It has been all the people who

554
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,880
are living in this world.
The, the, the, the apostrophe.

555
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:37,320
Everybody has said that there is
death is not the end for me.

556
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:44,000
Now most comes to is less but
ontological idealism or pen

557
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,440
psychism or protopen psychicism.
But I'm very reluctant because

558
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,600
people are talking about a
terminology and I want to talk

559
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,600
about content.
So for me, consciousness is

560
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,200
fundamental in the universe.
So everything comes from

561
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,280
consciousness.
Matter is derivative from

562
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,440
consciousness and not the other
way around.

563
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:13,040
So consciousness is always
everywhere together with energy

564
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,000
and information.
It's fundamental in the

565
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,160
universe.
So it starts with consciousness

566
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,600
and your body also has started
with consciousness and the world

567
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,800
we see around this started with
consciousness.

568
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,520
And also there's animals and
plants and planet Earth have

569
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,200
kind of subjective aspect, which
you call not, it's not a human

570
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,200
consciousness, but it's a kind
of subcutivity because it

571
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,880
everything comes from this
fundamental consciousness,

572
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:42,960
primary consciousness.
Do you think that, for example,

573
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,600
William James suggested at some
point that the brain transmits

574
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,160
rather than creates
consciousness?

575
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,440
Do you, a century later, do you
think that neuroscience is

576
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,360
finally catching up to that
intuition?

577
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,280
At least?
Because I find today when I

578
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,920
interview guests as well and
speak to people, this this seems

579
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,600
to be a growing theme that
people are starting to question

580
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,160
things more.
They are starting to ask

581
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,000
questions about consciousness
beyond the brain.

582
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:06,920
What have been your views
throughout the years?

583
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,840
Yeah, I'm very positive.
Let's say if you have the

584
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,040
Journal of Conscious Studies and
20 years ago it was 80%

585
00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:16,960
materials based studies on
consciousness and now it's about

586
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:21,880
6070% post material based
studies on consciousness.

587
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,280
So it's changing and especially
younger generation, like you are

588
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:27,960
much more open than my
generation.

589
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,600
So when I give lectures to, to
to medical students and also

590
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,560
the, the, the emails are
received from everywhere, the

591
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,639
younger generation, younger
doctors are aware of it, nurses

592
00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:42,639
are more aware of it.
So it's better for the page to

593
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,639
want to share the ND with the
medical profession as well.

594
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,000
So I'm positive it it it will
change.

595
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,920
And and if consciousness truly
continues after physical death

596
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,080
as as doctors, how should how
does that reshape our medical

597
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,320
ethics, let's say around
resuscitation, organ donation,

598
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,120
end of life care?
How do you believe this would

599
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,080
impact that?
Oh, a lot.

600
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:15,200
It makes a lot.
Let's say when when the the end

601
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:20,920
of life care, it's about the
moment of dying, the terminal

602
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,360
faith.
They have several experiences

603
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,760
which are based on non local
conscious and of life

604
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,320
experiences.
People who are in the turbo

605
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:35,160
phase of of illness can have be
in contact with the conscious of

606
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,160
diseased relatives, let's say
partners or parents of diseased

607
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:40,600
child.
They see the light, they see

608
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,560
brutal landscape.
They don't get the moment of

609
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:48,200
transition is is near of.
Unfortunately, most doctors and

610
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,800
nurses and other people think
they are hallucinations of side

611
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,680
effects of drugs.
But the research, research from

612
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,560
Switzerland is about more than
80% of people in terminal phase

613
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,960
of illness have this kind of end
of life experience.

614
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,560
But it's just always good easy
to express it to others, but

615
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:09,680
they are in and out the body.
Then you have the terminal

616
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,960
lucidity, people who have the
end phase of Alzheimer's

617
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,400
disease, who don't recognize the
family members for years or even

618
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,720
even are in coma or unconscious,
suddenly set up in bed,

619
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,880
recognize the family members,
call them by name, thank them

620
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,640
and die.
I mean, you know how the brain

621
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,120
looks and say of, of, of of of
Alzheimer's.

622
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,480
It's just a lot of mess in the,
in the skull.

623
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,720
There's no brain function left.
They have to share that

624
00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:44,480
experience.
The people are healthy and are

625
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:49,080
at the death bed of a very close
loved one and the moment he

626
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,240
dies, he can see the light or
even are taken with them in the

627
00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:55,400
death experience.
They get out of the body to the

628
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,920
turtle to the light see
sometimes the life review of the

629
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,480
disease and then at once they're
back in the body at the at the

630
00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:05,640
bed rather just a different died
shared that experience.

631
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,120
They're normal people who have
this kind of experience.

632
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,320
They have to peer immortal
experience that you that you

633
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,680
4:00 in the night you wake up.
I think of your father.

634
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,640
He said, oh, how sad or how is
he?

635
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,920
And next more you got a phone
call that at that very moment he

636
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,520
died.
So you have communication.

637
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,960
Sometimes you see them as a
light being saying goodbye to

638
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:33,160
you and they have to post, post
portal experiences after that

639
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,920
communication.
About 125 million people in

640
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,480
Europe have this kind of
experiences.

641
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,200
It usually happened during the
night because you call it a

642
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:45,560
dream.
It's not a dream, but it's got a

643
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:46,760
dream.
You will forget, but you'll

644
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,440
never forget this kind of
experiences.

645
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,720
About 80% of the people have
experience of after death

646
00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:55,800
communication in the first days,
weeks of months after the death

647
00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:01,560
of a closed family member.
They can see them, they can hear

648
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,760
them, they can communicate with
them, they can smell them, they

649
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,840
can feel everything is possible.
And usually they'll they say I

650
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,600
had a dream, but it is not a
dream.

651
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,760
And when you have this after
that communication to prove that

652
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,920
consciousness of a disease
rather rather is still there,

653
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,000
consciousness is always there.
So when I give Lexus also 30 or

654
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,560
40% of the people in the
audience when I asked for it

655
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:27,400
said I had an after death
colleague.

656
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,360
That's why they come because
they they know now all the other

657
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,480
way around, they'd have contact
with this conscious of disease

658
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,080
relatives.
It's all the conscious is means

659
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,560
also it's not local.
It's always there and you have

660
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,240
kind of access to it when you're
alive as well.

661
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,640
So all these kind of experiences
prove that consciousness is

662
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:56,040
still there, but it's not not,
let's say, scientific proof.

663
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,120
A real scientific proof is just
being mathematics.

664
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:05,080
You can prove or or or, but you
cannot prove in psychology or

665
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,240
psychiatry or this kind of
subject.

666
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,120
You cannot prove it.
It's beyond reasonable doubt.

667
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,960
Yeah, it reminds me when I spoke
to Noam Chomsky about this, he

668
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,000
he he spoke about how the the
whole scientific revolution was

669
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,680
completely abandoned after
Newton because once once

670
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,400
theories became so complex that
he could not explain reality

671
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,960
anymore, we started developing
theories to just explain what we

672
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,520
believe made the most sense.
So science of ultimately just

673
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,600
dropped the ball and trying to
understand the fundamental

674
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,640
nature of reality.
And he said there is no mind

675
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,440
body problem because technically
there is no body because we just

676
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,040
don't know.
What matter is you really know.

677
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,920
The matter doesn't exist.
Yeah, exactly.

678
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,840
It's just emptiness.
Exactly, and he was like, there

679
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:53,840
is just no mind body problem.
There is no body.

680
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,840
We don't know what matter is,
which is ultimately the

681
00:39:57,840 --> 00:39:59,680
something that you kind of
fundamentally agree with.

682
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,120
How has this changed your life
when you when it comes to

683
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,600
personal implications?
How has your research actually

684
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,120
shaped how you live, How you see
death and and understand

685
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,480
purpose?
That's a good question as well.

686
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,160
I think people ask me what what
about my death?

687
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:19,240
I say I'm I'm curious.
I'm not afraid I'm curious what

688
00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:23,240
will happen but my life changes.
Well my wife is very open.

689
00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:27,720
She post physiotherapist but she
did Tai chi and chi ku and she

690
00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:31,400
up to traditional Chinese
medicine, yoga etcetera.

691
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,880
So she's open for everything.
So our both our life change.

692
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:39,480
Our home is always silence but
be garden.

693
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,480
We love gardening.
We will we we we live theater

694
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,240
pizza from a National Park.
We each day we are out at least

695
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:50,520
one hour biking or walking in
nature.

696
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,880
We are both vegetarian, my wife
more strict than I am, but you

697
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,560
know, the rest of perhaps
sometimes take fish, but the

698
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,040
rest.
And we have a also in our home,

699
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:09,080
we have a place where fifty
families each Saturday come and

700
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,440
take the biologic dynamic
vegetables.

701
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,680
It's based of Anthroposophy.
So for, for 2530 years, we have

702
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,280
a place where people come.
So there's a farmer who brings

703
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,760
the, the vegetables with us and
the family comes here.

704
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,480
So we, we have for more than 30
years biological dynamic

705
00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:31,800
vegetables as well.
So we, we changed our life as

706
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,000
well.
My wife's also interested in

707
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,800
Anthroposophy also a bit.
So we're we're discussing a lot.

708
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,440
It's it, it seems that well.
Also as a cardiologist, I'm

709
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,440
assuming you know how healthy
that is for you.

710
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,160
So after seeing years and years
of block, you've made a good

711
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,200
decision.
We, we, we, we walk a lot and

712
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,400
bike a lot still each day and
I'm now 82 but I'm still each

713
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,200
day bike and walk.
You know, it's incredible when

714
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,320
when you think about back when
you were young medical student,

715
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,120
perhaps as a materialist think I
assume you were skeptical of

716
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,560
things like parapsychology, any
phenomenon that was outside of

717
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,480
the scientific realm.
Have you explored that anymore

718
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,440
since this journey?
Things like telepathy or or

719
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,560
talking, the sort of accessing
streams of consciousness beyond

720
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,840
what we consider scientific.
First of all, I'm never used to

721
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,640
work paranormal and I'm never
used to work parapsychotic.

722
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,480
It's normal, it's a psychotic,
but you need different theories

723
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:33,560
about it.
As a young doctor, I was not

724
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,320
interested.
My father was a neurologist and

725
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,480
he couldn't, my father couldn't
accept my research in the death

726
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,160
experiences.
He had a problem with it.

727
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:45,080
But I'm I know.
But I'd say we read about study

728
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,920
about the death experience and
non local constant telepathy,

729
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,160
which are called non local
information exchange.

730
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,600
You can get information beyond
time and beyond space.

731
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,960
You have perception, what we
call remote view, because non

732
00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:02,840
local perception.
I know Stephen Schwarzer had

733
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:08,400
written books about it.
So it's possible to know exactly

734
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,960
what happens on a long distance
or in a long time.

735
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,960
Stephen Schwarz did studies in
Egypt and you could find a

736
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:19,640
nonlocal perception palaces who
were not known yet.

737
00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:29,360
So it's real so, but I know
never used the world telepathy.

738
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,320
I used no local perception, no
local information exchange,

739
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,720
etcetera.
I tried to because consciousness

740
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,760
has no is always interconnected,
no time, no places the

741
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:46,040
information is possible.
That is much more normal than we

742
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:47,920
know.
So many people have this kind of

743
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,600
experiences, so also future
events of prognostic dreams.

744
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,920
You dream about something and
and then a year later you see

745
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,960
marriage or whatever or Deja vu
where you come somewhere on a

746
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,240
place.
I must have been there, but not

747
00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:03,360
now.
So all this kind of experience

748
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,840
is an aspect of non local
consciousness, but.

749
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,240
This might be too personal, but
have you ever had a near death

750
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:12,960
experience?
I always say not as far as I

751
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:18,160
know, but in my aura and in my
is said perhaps when I was 2

752
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,840
years old but I don't know.
But I'm over.

753
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,400
I resonate with all the people
who haven't and the ears shared

754
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,400
with me and and they come to me.
They they feel that I'm open.

755
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,040
So people who don't know me come
to me and start to share their

756
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,560
experience with me.
So it could be.

757
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,760
Do you feel like maybe things
like quantum mechanics or our

758
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,560
lack of understanding of
physical reality today and the

759
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:42,720
fact that people are exploring
this and so many different

760
00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:46,280
diverse theories is helping this
field grow and and and sort of

761
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,800
triggering people to think
beyond the brain?

762
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:53,800
Yeah, well, I use scrotification
also written a chapter about it

763
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,640
because I'm used to the
terminology non local

764
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:58,960
consciousness.
Non local is beyond time, beyond

765
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,120
space and interconnected.
But I use scrotifices as an

766
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:05,800
analogy and not as an
explanation for consciousness.

767
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:12,160
I I use neurophysiology
neurophysiology and I use any

768
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,080
research to understand the
aspects of near death

769
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,760
experiences, but quantum is just
an analogy.

770
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,760
Yeah, it's it's, it's always
tough because a lot of people

771
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:25,360
try to use that as an
explanation.

772
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:26,800
So you.
So I really like that.

773
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,160
Another thing is also for for
quantum.

774
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,640
Not all quantum is believe it,
but consciousness is essential

775
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:40,440
because the the the observer
doesn't exist, because the

776
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:45,360
observer makes an an an an an
experiment and the result of

777
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:49,000
experiment is depending of the
consciousness of the of the

778
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,480
observer.
So there's no objectivity at

779
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,920
all.
In at last in, in, in, in, in,

780
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:59,640
in science you can prove that
light behaves as particles and

781
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,600
you can prove that light behaves
as Braves both as true, but it

782
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:08,080
is not possible to have it.
So consciousness is fundamental

783
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:13,200
also for quantum physics and
also we know down now that there

784
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:19,200
is no objective science at all.
It's something you think about.

785
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,040
It is.
Is there any reason why you

786
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,600
almost went down the Pennsyka's
route versus the idealist route

787
00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:30,080
with your explanation of
consciousness?

788
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,000
Any.
It's not for me, not just told

789
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:35,320
you before.
It's not about the the

790
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:37,920
terminology.
I, I will can't talk and discuss

791
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,240
it.
I know Bernardo Castro very well

792
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,760
and and and I can discuss with
people also with with

793
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,040
philosophers.
The terminology is not so

794
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:52,520
important for me.
We can discuss the ideas and not

795
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,800
a terminology.
Yeah, it's, yeah, it almost.

796
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,240
It almost encloses someone into
a box that they didn't get stuck

797
00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:01,880
defending exactly.
And often too far.

798
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,560
It shouldn't.
It shouldn't become a dogma.

799
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,720
And that's the problem.
It should become a dogma.

800
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,640
When you look at looking
forward, when you when you look

801
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,280
at the next generation of
scientists and philosophers,

802
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,640
what do you see them doing
differently in terms of studying

803
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,440
the nature of consciousness?
What would you like to see

804
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,040
actually?
Well, I think it should be

805
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,800
important that a lot of
neuroscientists, but also

806
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,800
physicians and other
philosophers know about results

807
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,240
of near death experience
research because they don't know

808
00:47:35,240 --> 00:47:39,320
and they don't want to know
because they're frightened if it

809
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,040
could be true that they have
been wrong with their whole

810
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:42,920
life.
It's an awful, there's a huge

811
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,120
problem for them.
So, but the what I told you, the

812
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:47,880
younger generation is much more
open.

813
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:49,800
Also known.
There are scientists in the in

814
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,080
the Netherlands who are more
open for non local

815
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,120
consciousness, but they're very
reluctant to share it with

816
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,600
others as well.
But it will change.

817
00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:05,160
Let's say my book Conscious
Beyond Life is now in most

818
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:13,080
schools in the Netherlands for
6070 year old students get my

819
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,360
book to read and to give
something to write about.

820
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,160
And my my granddaughter studying
psychology in the second year,

821
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,760
she had my book and had to do an
examine about it.

822
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,600
So it's it's changing.
The younger generation is more

823
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:30,280
open and they've no more.
But it's, it's a small process.

824
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,120
It's a process.
It'll take some time, but again,

825
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,480
I'm positive.
That's incredible.

826
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,560
I think that's that's great to
see things come full circle like

827
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:40,400
that.
When you were when you were

828
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,200
exploring this and finally came
out of your materialist view of

829
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,280
the brain as the main function
for consciousness.

830
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,560
What books did you read?
Who, Which authors were the

831
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:51,920
people who took you out of this
and took you even further into

832
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:53,760
this?
For people who are curious and

833
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,000
would like to.
I also say people who have Andy

834
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,120
have been my greatest teachers.
That's it.

835
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,880
You have to listen to people
with open mind.

836
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,400
And science is asked a question
with an open mind.

837
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,720
So.
So you have to get rid of your

838
00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:11,160
dogmas because otherwise, yeah,
you cannot listen anymore.

839
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,800
You cannot read anymore because
you're still in eternal vision.

840
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:19,120
So, but I've read many books
that I started to read.

841
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,080
I really started to read the
Bible, for instance, and and and

842
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:26,360
and Tibetan Buddhism and the
banished shuts and and and

843
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,560
whatever books with a lot of
philosophy books, consciousness

844
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:34,560
books, quantum physics books, a
lot of books about their death

845
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,520
experiences.
But the most important thing for

846
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:41,760
me was the starting point was
listen to people with an NDA.

847
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,280
They have been my really my
teachers.

848
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:49,920
And if you had to summarize the
ultimate message that comes from

849
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,080
that, for anyone who still
sceptical, still curious about

850
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,960
Ndes, what about that topic do
you love so much?

851
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:00,720
And, and if you had to summarize
the major findings of what you

852
00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:03,880
think would fundamentally shift
someone to explore this topic,

853
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:09,200
what would those be?
I think that based on what we

854
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:13,560
know now is that death is just
the end of your body, but not

855
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,920
the end of your consciousness.
There's no beginning, Norco will

856
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:18,240
there ever be an end to
conscious?

857
00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:20,200
It's before birth and after
death.

858
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,680
There's consciousness.
So when you die, you're involved

859
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:29,400
in unconditional love.
You will be connected with other

860
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:36,000
people you love.
So it's it's, it's not the end

861
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,840
of who we are.
I think that's the main, main,

862
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,560
the most important aspect of
what we have learned.

863
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,440
And we always connected also
when we have died.

864
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:53,880
So the lessons also we have to
live now in love to others as

865
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:59,640
well, where you help people to
be nice or help people to help,

866
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:04,440
like two different aspects.
Just helping to help is

867
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,000
important, but helping to be
nice is something else.

868
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,560
So this kind of lessons you have
to learn it.

869
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:15,400
It's it's just about be open to
others and helping others and

870
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:19,040
giving love to others.
When it comes to the universe.

871
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,400
And to nature.
Exactly.

872
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:22,880
I was going to about to take
this further as well.

873
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:27,160
When it comes to the universe
itself, do you see the do you

874
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,280
think there is a teleological
purpose to all of us?

875
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:31,520
Do you believe that
fundamentally consciousness

876
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,960
might have a a purpose in this,
or is there a purpose in the

877
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,280
universe for you?
Yeah, that's a difficult

878
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:42,000
question because there's no
definition of consciousness as

879
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:46,720
well.
I think we have a consciousness

880
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,360
during our life to learn
lessons, I think and, and, and

881
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,800
the the essence of who we are,
the higher self with with

882
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,320
capital, it has always be there,
always be there.

883
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:06,680
So, and this is just universal
love, compassion and acceptance.

884
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,480
That's the essence of who we are
and we have to learn during our

885
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:15,040
life, have to learn this lesson.
I think that could be the

886
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:20,280
purpose of of this non local or
universal of divine conscious,

887
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:24,520
whatever you would call it.
Yes, I think that's the the most

888
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,320
intriguing part of exploring
these theories of consciousness.

889
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,560
When Robert Lawrence Kuhn wrote
the is now this 350 theories of

890
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:33,600
consciousness.
It's just growing and growing.

891
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:37,680
But the The funny thing is, is
that it's intriguing because

892
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:39,960
every theory of consciousness
must have some sort of

893
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,880
philosophical outcome.
So the ethics change or the

894
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:45,240
values change, the morals
change.

895
00:52:45,240 --> 00:52:48,400
And generally when it comes to
these Pancycus theories or or I

896
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,240
know you don't want to label
them and put them into boxes,

897
00:52:50,240 --> 00:52:53,960
but they tend to have a slightly
better overall philosophical

898
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:57,800
picture and ethical framework
that comes out of it then our

899
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:02,240
generalized dead matter view.
So I think that's one of the

900
00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:05,040
most positive things that does
come out of these experiences

901
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:06,680
for people.
Is that it does come.

902
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:09,160
They're more interested
spirituality.

903
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:16,600
Spirituality is to search for
inner knowledge by experience,

904
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:19,680
in a wisdom by just by
experience.

905
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,120
I think that that's what people
are starting to do, just more

906
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:27,360
spiritual beings or the essence
of who we are.

907
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:33,240
And as a Doctor Who's explored
such profound topics, do you

908
00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:36,840
find things like psychedelics or
meditation, other forms of

909
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:41,920
consciousness experiences sorry
as as almost a transcendence

910
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,920
into that realm to almost tuning
in, let's say to.

911
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,040
Sometimes, sometimes it can
happen.

912
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:52,920
Let's say that where you're
People who meditate sometimes

913
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:56,440
get an experience of enhanced
consciousness, but more often

914
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,480
not, and it cannot be the
purpose for meditation.

915
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,720
You get it enhanced
consciousness, but it may happen

916
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,480
may you do psychedelics.
Sometimes it may happen that you

917
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:09,320
have enhanced consciousness,
usually not the same elements as

918
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:13,480
an ND, but mostly it are
hallucinations, frightening

919
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:16,720
experience, negative after
effects etcetera.

920
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:19,560
So it's dangerous as well.
It can be dangerous, but there

921
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:26,760
have been also examples of very
positive after LSD or seriously

922
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:33,320
bean or DMT or whatever.
But it is not easy and it could

923
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,720
be dangerous as well.
Yes, yeah.

924
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:42,160
And what they interesting is
they have done fMRI studies in

925
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,520
people who using these
psychedelics and then you see

926
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:49,040
parts of the brain becoming less
active, but they have enhanced

927
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:52,160
consciousness experiences.
That's also interesting.

928
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,680
Yeah, that, yeah.
But when I spoke to Bernardo, he

929
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:57,160
spoke about the exactly the same
thing.

930
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:01,040
And he finds that to be one of
the ultimate markers that show

931
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:03,040
because there's so much activity
occurring.

932
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,080
So if the the reverse is
happening in the brain, it just

933
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,840
makes sense that definitely not
the source.

934
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,120
And then if you, when you look
at your work, your it, it's a

935
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:16,280
vast body of knowledge.
So much to explore.

936
00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:18,600
I'll put links to your books
down below as well.

937
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,840
Outside of ND ES, outside of out
of body experiences, any other

938
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:27,600
areas that you feel can help
fine tune this work or bring us

939
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:31,640
closer to understanding the
conscious experience?

940
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:35,680
Yeah, but I think what I told
you before, all the experiences

941
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:39,760
around to death, but in the
dying it happens so often that

942
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,400
usually people outside at the
bottom, they have to share it

943
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,840
with others.
So the end of life experiences

944
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:50,080
after that communication, the
the terminal lucidity, they are

945
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:52,000
all aspects of non local
consciousness.

946
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,800
And, and so we have to discuss
it.

947
00:55:56,240 --> 00:56:00,640
Why can't it happen so often?
And, and, and it's because it's

948
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,080
normal.
But interpretation of what's

949
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:06,040
happened to us.
They, they don't understand

950
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:08,480
because they just believe it's a
dream.

951
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,480
But what I also told you before,
you normally forget a dream with

952
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:14,760
this you, you never forget.
So this kind of experience are

953
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:19,480
important aspects of non local
conscious beside the scientific

954
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:21,160
research of the death
experiences.

955
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:24,600
It's almost like we have to be
retrained as medical doctors as

956
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,400
well to approach that with
patients when you explore that

957
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,960
clinical counter because it's a
paradigm shift in thinking.

958
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:35,920
It's just and it's to be open
minded, but I said it's so you

959
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,960
forget what you've learned and
listen to the patients and you

960
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:41,800
get more and more intuition as
well.

961
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,280
When you're open for patients,
you'll hear much more behind the

962
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:48,400
words as well.
When you look back at your

963
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:52,680
career and, and you reach closer
to death, we're all getting

964
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:53,520
there.
As you said, we need to

965
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,480
normalize this, this topic.
What?

966
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:58,560
When you look back at your life,
what what do you?

967
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:02,160
What would you look most likely
most like to be remembered for?

968
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:08,640
I, I, I think, but I'm just
grateful for the life I had.

969
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,720
I'm grateful for my wife and my
children and my grandchildren.

970
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:16,600
I'm grateful the way I could
live being a cardiologist and

971
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,560
doing the ND research.
I'm grateful for it.

972
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:24,520
So I'm happy and that's my
conclusion when I'm 82 years

973
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,240
old.
Now I'm looking back and I'm

974
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,720
happy and grateful.
You're 82 years young, PIM.

975
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:37,600
It's it's the when, when that
heart stops beating.

976
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:40,560
Where do you think PIM goes
afterwards?

977
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,760
Yeah, I'm curious.
I think I've only got with the

978
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,160
other dimension.
So that's what I said.

979
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:51,080
I'm a little curious.
So I'm I have not fear, perhaps

980
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:55,240
reluctant to think about the
dying process of dying that

981
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:59,040
could be very unpleasant.
But as soon as I leave my body,

982
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,600
it will be wonderful.
Yeah, I guess it all comes down

983
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:05,520
to the mechanism of death, eh?
Like do you want to get shot in

984
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,960
the leg and bleed out for hours
before it finally happens versus

985
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,560
going quietly in the night?
I think it's hopefully,

986
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:14,800
hopefully the best we go quietly
in the night.

987
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:17,280
But thank you so much.
It's such a pleasure to chat to

988
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:21,400
you and your work's incredible.
Your body of work's all amazing.

989
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,000
It's been such a pleasure to
read it and reread it because I

990
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:25,240
read your book quite some time
ago.

991
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:27,920
And then to go back through it,
it's been really great.

992
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:30,320
Any final words from you poem?
Anything you feel we haven't

993
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:33,320
touched on that you'd like to
explore before closing?

994
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:35,360
It was a pleasure to talk with
you.

995
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:41,360
I think you're already a lot.
You've prepared well, so and I

996
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:44,120
hope it also did kind of
podcasts to help people to open

997
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:46,160
their minds.
I think that's why I do these

998
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:49,480
kind of, I've given board of 50s
youth the last 2-3 years.

999
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:54,880
So and I think it's important
because it's the and the

1000
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,760
research has been done, but a
lot of people don't know

1001
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:00,080
anything about it.
So it's important and most

1002
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:03,280
people don't like to read books
anymore.

1003
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:09,040
So this kind of interviews is
helpful perhaps to change the

1004
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,440
minds of a lot of people.
Yeah, and I think this that's

1005
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:14,680
exactly what this podcast is
trying to do.

1006
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,680
So hopefully people see this
interact, engage.

1007
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,240
But if there's any links to any
specific articles or papers you

1008
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,320
want me to put in the
description for people to click

1009
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:27,600
on, please do share.
Yeah, my, my, my website is

1010
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:33,440
country beyondlive.com and you
can have all the scientific

1011
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:36,840
articles, you can have a lot of
interviews, you can see

1012
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:40,560
everything that you want to see.
So my website is in.

1013
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:44,600
Yeah, Alex, I'll put a link to
all of that as well to the.

1014
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:47,200
Link to my book as well perhaps?
Yeah, and.

1015
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:49,880
Continuity of consciousness.
All your papers.

1016
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:53,480
And I think the, the, the paper,
the continuity of consciousness

1017
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:56,920
from the Big Law Institute is a
very important paper.

1018
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,720
I kind of regret it's 40, only
40 pages.

1019
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:02,960
So it's it's just kind of
updated summary for my book.

1020
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:04,960
Yeah, yeah, it's nice and
accessible.

1021
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:10,320
Hopefully a quick read for some
people, but we'll see how fast

1022
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:13,160
they can get through it.
But yeah, man, it's it's it's

1023
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:14,520
amazing.
It's incredible work.

1024
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:17,600
And it's it's been a pleasure.
Thank you so much.

1025
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:21,120
I I've still one point.
Did you read the last book by

1026
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:23,480
Dan Brown?
No, I have not yet.

1027
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:27,080
The ultimate secret?
No, it's just about your death

1028
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:28,920
experience.
It's no longer consciousness,

1029
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:31,880
telepathy, non local perception,
etcetera.

1030
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:36,360
It's just what I told you is
near in his book and have been

1031
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:38,360
studying for eight years now
already have been.

1032
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:43,000
I don't know if he read my book,
but I think he must have read my

1033
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:45,160
book.
So that's very important that

1034
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:48,880
because millions of people will
read this book and they will say

1035
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,240
they will read about non local
consciousness, near death

1036
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,440
experiences, telepathy, non
local perception, etcetera.

1037
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:59,960
So it's very helpful to to to
other people to be open.

1038
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:03,520
Yes, it's almost like it it it
bridges that popular culture

1039
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:05,440
with this, with this type, it
makes it a lot.

1040
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:07,640
More and and that's that's
that's very positive.

1041
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:11,520
Yeah, no, no, for sure.
And and I think that's exactly

1042
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:13,800
what needs to happen, is that
the more pop culture starts to

1043
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:16,720
get into this and that's
mainstream academia cannot do

1044
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:18,240
this alone.
You have to sort of bridge in

1045
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:21,200
some sort of a popular media and
then that's when the message

1046
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:23,720
gets received.
The change will come from the

1047
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:27,800
population, not from science.
Thank you, it was nice to talk

1048
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:28,040
with you.