Denis Noble & Raymond Noble: Is Life Purposeful? A Paradigm Shift in Understanding Living Systems

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There's absolutely no reason why
attributing purpose to organisms

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is non scientific.
That's rubbish.

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We are effectively saying not
only are organisms purposive,

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and evidently so, but very
interestingly, as physiologists

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we know also that a purposive
explanation actually predicts

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downwards towards the molecular
level as to what kinds of

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mechanisms must exist for that
purpose to exist than the other

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way round.
What is interesting here is that

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purposive explanations actually
lead to good science.

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What is this doing?
Why does it consume 20% of the

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total energy that we use?
It's got nothing to do with

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whether there's something
ghostly out there that, as it

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were, as a goal that is
somewhere out there dragging us

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towards something.
That sort of causation is not

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involved.
All it's postulating is that

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there is anticipation of what
might happen in the future, and

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that has nothing to do with
backward time, causation, or

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anything ghostly like that.
All it's got to have any

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Organism is the ability to
anticipate very many different

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reactions rapidly to crisis
situations, and that can only be

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done by having anticipatory
process occurring inside here.

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Consciousness to me is like a
readiness, if you like to act,

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and thereby anticipatory.
And it goes back to what Dennis

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was saying earlier, that the key
thing there is anticipation.

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It's, it's the state of
readiness and anticipating what

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it is that's going on in the
world, regardless of whether

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we're right about it.
We cannot function without that.

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And that is consciousness.
You don't.

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That is Dennis, isn't it?
There are what are called

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readiness potentials in the
nervous system that have been

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recorded as inevitably what
happens when you are in the

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process of making a decision.
It's it's fascinating, it really

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is.
They are readiness potentials.

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The system is getting itself
geared up and we feel that

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consciously too.
It is well, that is the feeling

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that is the consciousness,
Dennis.

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That is the consciousness and
and you.

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But you know, I'll say
something, I'll say something

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highly controversial now,
something Dennis and I've been

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discussing more recently.
Great.

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Dennis, is there anything
particular you'd like me to

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touch on while we go through
this conversation?

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One of the things that I've been
thinking more about in recent

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times, as Dennis knows and
Dennis and I've had discussions

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about, and of course you must
understand that we never have

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closed minds, Dennis and I, on
anything.

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I mean, our whole approach is to
try and be as open to ideas as

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possible because it seems to us
that the only way you can begin

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to understand particularly
problems like the mind Body

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Issue is to to be open to ideas.
What what we've been doing is

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sort of focusing on, I think
it's fair to say I wanted to

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areas that I think are somewhat
mistaken in approach, if you

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like, it may be wrong on that
and corrected.

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But one of those is that the,
the, the, the idea of

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consciousness as a, an emergent
phenomenon, that it depends, as

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it were, on higher order
functionality.

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And our approach to that is
more, as we've expressed in one

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of our papers, in terms of the
title of one of our papers, a

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mergent.
It's just simply actually you

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can remove the word A
altogether.

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It's mergent and it's mergent
through levels and across

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levels, if you see what I mean,
within levels, it's mergent as

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well.
There's emergence going on.

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And that mergence we feel is
something which is true of all

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cells is as true of unicellular
organisms as it is of higher

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level.
The horrible word higher, more

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complex, more organised
entities.

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Multicellularity for example,
will involve some kind of coming

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together of what we would
normally look at in relation to

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individual organisms,
unicellular organisms, as what I

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believe you could refer to as
conscious in the sense that is,

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is to do with the state of being
of that Organism in relation to

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its readiness, if you like to
respond.

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And they are conditional states.
So in a sense consciousness is a

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conditional state and
conditional states exist,

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although with different levels
of faculty.

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What is what has evolved as a
result in in large part of that

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motivational consciousness, if
you like that that changing of

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States and responsiveness are
are the different faculties that

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we see in all sorts of forms of
life and life has explored

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different ways of being engaged
with the problem of maintaining

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its integrity.
So I, I, I think that's

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something encapsulates, I think
where our thoughts, I mean,

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Dennis might want to correct
some points, but I think that

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really sums up where we are.
But we're not closed, if you see

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what I mean.
I mean, one of the things that

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we're probably more closed about
is the idea that there is a, a

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mind body separation, as it
were.

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That's another aspect that I
think we think is, is, is

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mistaken and it leads to all
sorts of problems of regarding

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organisms as sort of
mechanistic, not just material.

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I don't think there's a problem
regarding it as material, but

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that's different and regarding
it as mechanistic.

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And, and it was the change to
looking at or, or life as

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mechanistic that I think created
all the problems back in the

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Western sense in terms of the
Enlightenment and so on.

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That for some reason we wanted
humans to be different and, and,

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and, and, and started to treat
organisms, other forms of life

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as being simply material in a
mechanistic sense.

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And it led to another kind of
dualism.

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I'm sorry, I'm banging on here,
but I just want to get you to

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feel of where our thoughts, I
think, lie.

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It led to an, another kind of,
of dualism, which we've referred

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to, which is a mechanistic
dualism.

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In other words, you look for the
bit within the system that is

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driving the system and we don't
think there is a bit within the

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system that drives the system.
The system drives the system.

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That's the whole essence of
life.

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It's, it's the distinctive
feature of, of living organisms.

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And I so I think that's, I think
that's where we are.

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And then of course, on top of
that, what we, the idea that

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we've, we've, we've kind of
developed over the years is this

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idea that the system at it's
different nested levels, nested

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functionality from the cells to
the tissues, to the organs, to

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the organ systems and so on, and
to the body and to the social

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interactions.
And this interspecies

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interaction, the ecological
leads to different levels of

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intelligence, if you like,
different, different ways of

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using information about what's
going on.

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So cells will influence cells
and communicate it with each

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other.
It's absolutely vital to the

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functionality and a lot of that
has got lost.

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We feel in, in medicine
actually, that we've, we've

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stopped looking for the way the
system controls itself and the

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way that that control of itself
can be a fundamental in what

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goes wrong with with health.
And then of course, you reach

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the, the sort of rather more
outer level, if you like, which

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we regard that that is regarded
as the psychological self, if

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you like, which creates all the
sort of problems of the mind

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body, which is of course, how on
earth can this apparently

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immaterial aspect of our lives
influence the material?

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And of course, in a sense, it's
not as immaterial as you as

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people think it is.
And that's the key there.

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I think that there's no, and
it's an open system, of course,

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it's exchanging what is what is
fundamental about that outer

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layer, that outer cultural
level, if you like, social,

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psychosocial, cultural level.
It is what what exists beyond

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the materiality of us as
individuals and therefore has a

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kind of spiritualism, if you see
what I mean, but without a

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dualism.
It has a spiritualism in the

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sense that there is something,
some aspect of maintaining the

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integrity of the system that is
not necessarily the maintaining

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of us personally.
And that is, AII think a crucial

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understanding.
And in a sense we commune with

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that as part of it.
Some people asked me when I

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expressed this that, you know,
are you talking about

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panpsychism?
I don't know whether I am or

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not.
I don't think there's any need

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necessarily to sort of label it,
but I understand why they asked

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that question.
You know, depending on how one

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defines a psychological state,
there are certainly social

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states.
And those social states are to

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do with the way we behave as
ensemble as as groups as opposed

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to as individuals.
And it's not just simply an

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aggregate of individual
behaviour.

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What happens when we behave as
good?

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That becomes a kind of a
communion, a different way of

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communicating.
We don't have to do what we're

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doing now, which is to explain
ourselves to each other when

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we're behaving in that kind of
way.

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In fact, the vast majority of
us, you know, we just don't have

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time to do that.
We, we behave in that way, we

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create psycho cultural norms, if
you like, in terms of normative

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behaviour.
And they will differ from

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culture to culture, different
kinds of cultures and, and, and

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over time they will change in
responsiveness as a way of

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solving the problems.
I'm going on far too much, but

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that I think, I think, I think
that encapsulates where we,

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where we are.
I, I suppose, sorry, sorry.

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I, I, I went on a bit long with
that and you probably didn't.

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Really take aspects.
To it.

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It's not surprising, therefore,
I think, that people can get so

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muddled over it all, including
us.

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And I think it's it's great
because it shows your passion

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towards the topic.
Dennis, anything about what Ray

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just mentioned that you'd like
to add on or clarify?

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I don't think I, I need to, no,
I remember the fact is that we

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can finish, finish each other's
sentences.

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I mean, this is ridiculous
communion.

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It's true.
I mean, ever since ages ago, you

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know, we we know where the mind
is going.

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The other one easily finished.
I was waiting to finish any of

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those sentences.
No, where.

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We've got this, this, this pins
down where we are and you might

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as well begin whenever you want,
Evan.

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Look, I think the best place to
start, you guys have both been

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in this field for such a long
time.

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And over the last few years,
I've noticed a, a nice shift or

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transition into the
philosophical aspects of it all,

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sort of bringing this up.
And I appreciate that because

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it, it fits then perfectly
within this podcast, because as

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a doctor, someone who's deeply
ingrained within biology,

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Physiology, I'm very fascinated
personally by the philosophical

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elements that our work entails.
And I want to first start with

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definitions, guys.
So let's try and define your

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philosophical idea of the mind
body problem and obviously the

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problem of this mind matter
dichotomy already.

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And thereafter let's define life
in consciousness.

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Anyone can start.
I'll do a beginning.

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I, I think I come from a long
period of interacting with a

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number of very good philosophers
and it's been a privilege to

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interact with them.
And I think what I've come round

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to are two things that matter. 1
is that many have felt that

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given the way biology was
developing in the 20th century

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under the influence of Francis
Crick's central dogma and

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various gene centric
interpretations, that they

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somehow had to position the mind
in a completely determinist

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world.
And I don't think it's possible.

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And you know, I, I, I've
discussed this with, for

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example, Anthony Kenny many
times.

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He did his best as a philosopher
to to approach these questions,

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accepting that biology had shown
that it's a determinate world.

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Well, it just ain't that's the
first thing.

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There is massive stochasticity,
there is almost virtually

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impossibility, computational
explosion and all of that to

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account for things indeterminate
models.

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So that's the first big thing I
would say.

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And the second thing they did
was therefore to become too

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captivated by the need to either
go with Descartes or against

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him.
And we don't see the need to

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bother with that argument at
all.

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That that that was, that would
be my gloss on the way Ray

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began.
Yes.

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Ray, anything about that you'd
like to add on?

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Yes.
Just to continue on from that

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aspect of the stochasticity, the
variability, the almost

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unpredictable variability at at
at that very basic level is, is

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00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,200
that that nothing can work
without that.

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If it is both a problem for life
and the reason for life in a

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sense.
And what the system does, as we

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00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,320
express it, is that it harnesses
that energy from that

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stochasticity, from that
variability, to create the

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things it needs to create in
order to solve the problems it

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00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,800
needs to solve in order to
maintain its integrity.

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The distinctive feature of life,
I think, is that that there is

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this self maintenance of
integrity.

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00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:25,680
It doesn't do that by meaning
the same.

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00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:33,120
It does it by adaptation by
change at various stages and

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00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,440
times.
So it can have an adaptation

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00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:41,160
which is transgenerationally in
response to longer term changes.

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00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:46,040
And it can have which
unfortunately the sort of modern

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00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:53,560
view put aside because it it, it
had this inherent view of of

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00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,160
inheritance of a quite
characteristics as it were.

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00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,400
In other words, the use of
information in one generation to

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00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,680
solve the problems in the
future, knowing in a sense that

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you can't solve them
immediately.

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00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,400
But if, if some of you can, if
there is sufficient variability

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00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,000
within the system for the
systems to explore different

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ways of dealing with a problem
and you can develop faculty.

250
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,720
And that leads me to another
distinction, which is the

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00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:25,760
distinction between and It's
not, it's not an absolute

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00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:27,720
distinction, and I'll come back
to that in a moment, but the

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00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,960
distinction between the
development of faculty on the

254
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,640
one hand, both in terms of
development and also in terms of

255
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:40,600
evolution, the ability to do
something and what one does with

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00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,040
it, which I will call
facultative.

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00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,040
So the distinction between
faculty on the one hand, and

258
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,400
facultative.
And if you focus just on the

259
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:56,000
faculty, you end up with kind of
just looking at the anatomy and

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00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,720
Physiology, if you like.
I mean, here is my, it's, it's

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00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,240
beautiful, no doubt.
I mean, look at it.

262
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,839
These are my, my fingers and my
hands and my arms.

263
00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:08,839
And if you look at the fantastic
relationship between the muscles

264
00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:12,359
and the skeleton and how it
works, or if you look at an, if

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00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,359
you look at organisms that are
arthropods, for example, the

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00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,560
extraordinary beauty of the
arrangements that they've got to

267
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,560
do similar kinds of thing, which
is to move.

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The reason why these are there
to move is not so much inherent

269
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,280
in the faculty, but in the
facultative.

270
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:29,920
In other words, what are you
doing with them?

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00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:35,920
In any sense, these are tools of
the system society.

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00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,600
The scientist doesn't don't seem
to have much problem.

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00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:44,720
If I if I point to a hammer and
say, you know, that hammer is

274
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,520
used to not nails in and hold
things together.

275
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,600
Well, that screwdriver is
designed to unscrew things or

276
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,840
whatever.
An implement that has been made

277
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,040
in order to do something,
because it's created to do

278
00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,680
something, then you can see
reason in it.

279
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,320
And this is important.
Reason.

280
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:09,600
See reason is, as it were, the
non material bit because it's

281
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,760
the situational logic.
Why has that been created?

282
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,280
It's been created in order to
solve the particular problem of

283
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,640
holding things together or
unscrewing things or doing

284
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,040
things that we need to do.
What's really odd is the fact

285
00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:28,960
that here I have this pencil
which I use to write down notes.

286
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,320
I'm going to be doing it while
we're talking in case I need to

287
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,000
make a note of something.
And it's a curious kind of thing

288
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,440
that somehow or other they want
us to divorce the idea that this

289
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:48,080
has reason behind it, but this
hand that uses it doesn't.

290
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,120
And it makes no sense to me
because this cannot do anything

291
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:59,840
without this, and this can't do
very much without this, you see.

292
00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:03,960
So I don't know what happens to
the to science when it's somehow

293
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,440
or other the more it gets into
this, the more it becomes hard

294
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,840
and says, you know, you can't
have reason, you can't have why

295
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:14,680
you can't.
And of course, one of the

296
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,200
difficulties of why is that you
can't measure it.

297
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,040
I mean, the why is certainly
immaterial in that sense.

298
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:26,440
It's not something that can be
clearly weighed on a scale.

299
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:31,640
I mean, what is half a reason?
I don't know, you see.

300
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,120
So it's terribly difficult to
partition and sort of say what

301
00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:37,240
it is.
What it is, is of course,

302
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,680
there's the situational logic.
And that situational logic is

303
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,680
created in large part by us by
life.

304
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,280
Life is both problem solving and
problem creating.

305
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,320
So it creates the reason, the
reason we don't have to create

306
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,680
some reason from somewhere else.
And, you know, it's a Plato kind

307
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,000
of, you know, Platonic kind of
sense of, you know, there's an

308
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,000
ideal out there that if only we
could find it.

309
00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:00,800
And and and you know, the
philosophers, of course, have

310
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,480
the skill of being able to tell
us what it is.

311
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,960
The the somehow or other, the
essence of being essences of

312
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,680
being what we are.
And if any we knew what they

313
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,840
were, we'd know the real, the
real Rey Noble, you see, is, is

314
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,160
the essence of me.
And, and this kind of concept of

315
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,440
an essence of that that really
drives the system, it either

316
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,760
leads you to the hard
materialistic view or

317
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,080
mechanistic view of the, you
know, or it's the genome.

318
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:31,360
I mean, I've seen people refer
to Aristotle's view of the soul

319
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:35,240
as being almost like the genome,
which I think is bonkers.

320
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,320
It's not like that at all.
And in fact, he, he saw some of

321
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,960
the fundamental problems with
dualism, which is again, how do

322
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,000
you partition it?
I mean, how do you, if, if you

323
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,760
have a faculty to act, why are
you creating a faculty for the

324
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,680
faculty to act?
Why can't the faculty act

325
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,160
without there being a faculty
for the faculty to act?

326
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,120
You see, and, and I mean it, you
can find that in Aristotle's

327
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:07,080
writings as well, you see, and,
and so why do we need a genome

328
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:12,560
in order to act in order to, you
know, no gene is involved in

329
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,520
this when I'm using my pencil,
and no gene certainly determines

330
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,920
what it is I'm thinking when I'm
writing on a piece of paper with

331
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,720
it.
I mean, it's very important to

332
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,040
clarify there, Ray, just to
interrupt a moment.

333
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,680
Yes, very important to clarify
there is that it does take time

334
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:33,440
to change gene expression
levels.

335
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:39,520
So there is inevitably a block
on being able if you're doing

336
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,680
something quickly like playing
the piano.

337
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,920
No genes are varying during
that.

338
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,200
And, and indeed, you know, the
heartbeat, which is what I

339
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,000
modelled many years ago, there's
no time for gene expression to

340
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,720
change during each heartbeat.
That's something that people

341
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,960
seem to have missed largely I
think because Dawkins is so

342
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,600
utterly convincing with his
simplistic explanations of a

343
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:10,040
gene centric view.
But once you abandoned that and

344
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,640
realise that there's massive
stochasticity even at the

345
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,760
molecular level, that of course
comes from the water based

346
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,600
system, which has naturally got
huge stochasticity.

347
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,640
We'll we'll never model all the
trillions of water molecules

348
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,360
there are even in a single cell.
There's alone doing it in a

349
00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:34,760
whole body.
So I keep coming back to that

350
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:39,280
fact that we have to recognize
that organisms are operating

351
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:45,720
within an effectively infinite
space of possibility.

352
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,200
I, I love the fact that I know,
Dennis, when you spoke, when you

353
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,200
speak about this, this whole
issue, you talk about how if

354
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,840
someone can create an artificial
intelligence, it'll be more

355
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,800
impressive when they make one
out of water because then

356
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:57,960
they've basically.
Made exactly.

357
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,000
So I think it would be necessary
because I can't otherwise you

358
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,200
see their answer would be, look,
Dennis, you've made a huge

359
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:10,160
fundamental mistake.
The software is not dependent on

360
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,280
the hardware.
And I say, wait a minute, what

361
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,400
are organisms?
They're not software dependent

362
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,680
on the hardware.
They are integrative holes.

363
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,160
There is no distinction like
that.

364
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,760
What is true is that what you
sometimes refer to as the

365
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,800
hardware, the genes and the
proteins they can create are

366
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,960
immensely fluid.
We know, for example, that the

367
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:41,440
proteins can multitask.
You can have a protein that goes

368
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,560
into a membrane and acts as a
channel and the same protein can

369
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:51,360
be an enzyme in a different
context and most proteins are

370
00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:54,640
like that.
We, we, we know now about 70%

371
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,640
have got variable.
Well, what has happened is easy

372
00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,960
to understand too.
It was shown in the first

373
00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:02,920
sequencing of the human genome
in 2001.

374
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,360
If you compare the different
species for a particular type of

375
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:10,680
protein, let's say it's a
chromatin and you, you look at

376
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,000
the what's happened, bits have
been added on.

377
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,000
There's been accretion of
functional bits.

378
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,240
But that means that sometimes in
a complex protein, there may be

379
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:28,560
7 or 8 functional bits that can
be used for that purpose or this

380
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,280
purpose.
And they can be totally

381
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:35,280
different as different between
between controlling iron moving

382
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:40,640
in and out of a cell membrane in
a red cell or enabling econitase

383
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,480
to do the enzymatic work that
he's doing.

384
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,840
It's as different as that, you
know.

385
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,400
So we've got to recognise that
there's a much more fluid

386
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,680
situation that life encounters.
And that is true even a single

387
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,640
cell.
If I represent a nucleotide as

388
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:02,760
the size of my fist, and here in
Oxford it's the nucleus, this is

389
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:08,360
the edge of the cell will be way
up in Scotland, it's that huge.

390
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,440
It it's, it's quite astonishing
when you think about when you

391
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,160
guys think about the current
state of biology, where do you

392
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:21,560
think there's been a fundamental
misunderstanding with for you?

393
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,600
You brought up Dawkins and he's
played a huge role with the

394
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,920
selfish Gene book and the way
people are able to absorb that

395
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,920
book because the contents quite
accessible.

396
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,800
Where do you think there's been
a fundamental misunderstanding

397
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,400
with how we perceive concepts
like life or or mind?

398
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:41,320
Sad to say, it's the unfortunate
interpretations of molecular

399
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,840
biology.
There are several key facts that

400
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:50,120
just don't fit with the current
theories.

401
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,320
First, DNA does not replicate
like a crystal.

402
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,080
It does not self replicate.
It relies on the Organism itself

403
00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:02,640
to be able to correct many
errors in the replication

404
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,720
process.
Second, there is no weisman

405
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:11,920
barrier.
There is what's the word we use

406
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,360
sometimes ray, the boundary
between the soma and the germ

407
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:21,240
line, yes, but it's a functional
boundary and we know that

408
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:27,600
control RNAs can just pass
across that in very readily.

409
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,480
We know that many examples of
that.

410
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,720
I do a paper that I published
with a colleague just last year

411
00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:42,960
or 2020 three 20/25/2023 I think
anyway it it simply shows the

412
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:48,080
many examples of little V
circles of RNAs and control

413
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,120
proteins and so on crossing that
boundary.

414
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,080
So Weisman barrier, I'm afraid
is gone.

415
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,640
Inheritance of acquired
characteristics.

416
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:02,000
But we're now then in then into
the epigenetic area and and here

417
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,160
again is a major fault.
What what Richard, I think would

418
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,720
say is, OK, some of that is, is
an honorary gene.

419
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,040
And he uses that expression
actually in his debates with

420
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,120
people.
I guess I'll accept that as an

421
00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:19,200
honorary gene.
But once you do that, you're

422
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:24,240
changing the definition of a
gene such that the whole theory

423
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,640
becomes a tautology.
There is no way you can test it

424
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,480
experimentally.
And that, I'm afraid, is true of

425
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,120
the selfish gene theory.
He's very clever.

426
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:43,040
He's produced a a, a structure
that seems to make extraordinary

427
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,800
sense if you stay within it.
But as soon as you realise DNA

428
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,560
does not replicate like a
crystal, that there is no

429
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,720
Weissman barrier, and that
inheritance of acquired

430
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,640
characteristics can occur
through epigenetics, and we can

431
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,640
go into the detail of any of
those if we need to.

432
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,280
But those are the three main
things that are just

433
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,120
misinterpretations of the
molecular biology.

434
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,080
And believe you me, over the
last 20 years we've furrowed in

435
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,560
that area to such a degree.
When I put all of those points

436
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:18,160
to Richard Dawkins two years ago
in a debate at the Institute of

437
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,520
Arts and Ideas Festival, he
didn't answer any of those.

438
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:26,400
He simply repeated his mantra.
Genes are causal, genes are

439
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,880
causal and genes are causal
because we can make a measure an

440
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,400
association between the two. 2A
physiologist association can be

441
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:40,720
0 and it can still be causal.
That's, that's right, Dennis and

442
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,920
I, I, I think there's a, there
has also been a fundamental

443
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,240
reaching out to your
philosophers.

444
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,080
Now there's also being a
fundamental philosophical error

445
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:57,440
made, I think, and it goes back
to what we were saying a little

446
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:06,840
bit earlier, that that that if
you as there's a concept that if

447
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,320
you abandoned materialism, that
you're suggesting that there is

448
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,000
something which is supernatural.
Yes, exactly.

449
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,760
What what we've tried to do is
to show people that this is not

450
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,640
necessarily the case at all,
that that reason is not

451
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:27,680
supernatural, it is natural.
It's the only way nature can

452
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,920
work because it it all
organisms, we say in our little

453
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,840
book Understanding Living
Systems, all organisms have to

454
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,640
assess their environment, and
they do so by sensing it, but

455
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:46,640
also by anticipating it.
All organisms are dynamically

456
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,560
engaged in their environment and
continuously assessing it.

457
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,280
Now perhaps in the simplest of
organisms, unicellular

458
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,840
organisms, that assessment is
relatively simple, although

459
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:04,720
actually when you look at it,
it's rather complex and it

460
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:09,920
involves an enormous amount of
changing of state and and

461
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:16,240
exploratory behaviour.
And, and you know as you going

462
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:22,360
back to this idea that as it
were, systems are nested within

463
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,440
each other, organelles are
nested within the cells and the

464
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,440
cells integrity function and
each cell is nested within.

465
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,120
In multicellular organisms,
multicellular organisms may have

466
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:41,000
come together in a sense through
the same kind of variabilities

467
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,320
that exist within the cells
themselves, that, you know,

468
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:49,200
cells will come together, merged
to create new organisms.

469
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,520
And in the early period of
evolution that may have been a

470
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:56,200
fundamental in determining the
way different species were

471
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:01,000
created until we, what we see
now are very much more

472
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,920
definitive species and groups,
but the sort of symbiotic

473
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:11,120
relationships that can exist.
But going back to this

474
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:18,160
philosophical thing, I think
another mistake that the Selfish

475
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:24,880
gene makes is regarding the gene
as an immutable bit.

476
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,560
Richard makes a great deal of
this in the Selfish Gene itself

477
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:34,880
in the in the book.
This always reminds me a little

478
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,480
of Plato's idea, if you like, of
you know that that what that

479
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,640
there has to be some pure thing
that maintains itself that isn't

480
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,360
that.
And and of course, the problem

481
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,800
with being is the fact that it's
continually changing.

482
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,760
The world is full of flux.
So what on earth should it be?

483
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,800
What is the essence of being a
horse or a dog or a cat or a

484
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,400
human being or a chair or
whatever?

485
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,200
And of course it, it isn't like
that.

486
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,360
There isn't a system that exists
outside determining what it is

487
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,320
that it should be.
And, but, but curiously, I think

488
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,080
that Richard Dawkins and others
have made a similar kind of

489
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,920
mistake, but in a mechanistic
way of saying that what it must

490
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,640
be, must be determined by
something which is pure.

491
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,360
And their whole mathematics, in
a sense, their whole kind of

492
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:28,520
maths approach to it is to
assume that, you know, the, the

493
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,800
whole existence is to maintain
genes in a gene pool.

494
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,960
Well, genes, genes don't exist
in a gene pool.

495
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,560
It's, it's a figment of
imagination.

496
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,840
In any event, there isn't a gene
pool.

497
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:43,400
The genes are in US.
And yes, you can regard us as a

498
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,960
pool, but once you decide that
they're in US and not in a gene

499
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,760
pool, the idea of maintaining
genes in a gene pool evaporates.

500
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,160
I mean, why on earth would you
want to maintain genes in a gene

501
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,880
pool when in a gene pool they
can do absolutely nothing?

502
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,840
The only way that genes can do
anything at all is by being used

503
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,920
by systems that they exist in,
which are organisms.

504
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,160
And the crucial thing is here
not to maintain the integrity of

505
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,080
the gene, the immutability of
the gene.

506
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,320
It is to change it.
And when you look at how this

507
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,080
works in practice, the genes
are, yes, they're right that

508
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,280
genes are a problem because the
errors are occurring all the

509
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,680
time and those errors have to be
corrected.

510
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,200
And there's a whole machinery
that exists to correct those

511
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,360
changes.
If they didn't, we didn't have

512
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,880
that machinery within our cells,
we would soon fall apart.

513
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,040
In other words, we will fail to
do what organisms do, which is

514
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,000
to maintain their integrity and
their integrity function.

515
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:47,720
And how they do that will change
with age, because with age we do

516
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,320
maintain our integrity in
somewhat different ways.

517
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,400
And so we have to adapt to the
fact that we're not doing it in

518
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,240
the same kind of way.
When you reach the age of 70

519
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,440
plus, for example, you're no
longer doing it by generating

520
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,200
more brain cells or you're not
generating it by altering the

521
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,679
synaptic sort of connections in
the system other than perhaps

522
00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:15,320
losing more of them and so on.
So you're having to adapt to the

523
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:20,159
fact that physically your
faculties are not as supple or

524
00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:24,320
as as responsive as they were
before, and you adapt to them.

525
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,400
But this is not not about
keeping everything the same.

526
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,880
It's adapting and changing.
And that's true at at all

527
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,639
levels.
It's true as a cultural level.

528
00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:36,440
Cultures have to adapt,
otherwise they cease to exist.

529
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,920
And any system that seeks to say
what something should be is

530
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,600
problematic.
It creates a closed system which

531
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,600
is then unable to adapt.
And that leads us to the sort of

532
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,199
philosophical problem at the
social level.

533
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,520
Is there a better way of being?
Well, probably, but I don't know

534
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,120
what it would be.
And I think that attempts to

535
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:02,760
define it probably lead to more
likely breakdown of social

536
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,400
existence than it does enhancing
it, because we're dependent on

537
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,560
the variability, not maintaining
things the same.

538
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,680
And I think this is a major
philosophical mistake that the

539
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,600
materialists made in a sense by
honing in on the gene as the

540
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,160
immutable bit.
And that's the lot.

541
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,400
Immortal.
That's extraordinary, Yes.

542
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,040
Immortal.
The immortal gene has it.

543
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,160
Not immortal at all.
Yes, that was the name he was

544
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,080
when he was considering to name
it initially before his

545
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,680
publishers told him to name it
The Selfish Gene.

546
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:40,720
That's right.
Yes, Yes.

547
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,040
I think something.
That that in itself created

548
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,520
another philosophical problem of
a moral kind.

549
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,320
Because see, it kind of, I know
that I know that Richard

550
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:56,600
wouldn't have intended this to
be the case, but it led to the

551
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,720
acceptance of the notion that we
are all born selfish.

552
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,480
And this is fundamentally
philosophically flawed because

553
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,360
you can't be selfish unless you
have a choice not to be.

554
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,160
And that is fundamental, you
see, And I don't understand you,

555
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,040
You can't be regarded as self as
a baby.

556
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,080
A baby cannot be regarded as
selfish.

557
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,640
I mean, all organisms, of
course, as I've said, you know,

558
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,920
we're definitively seeking to
maintain our integrity, but that

559
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,840
in itself is not selfish.
And none of us could exist if we

560
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,360
didn't do that.
None of us could exist without

561
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,200
helping each other maintain our
integrity, which leads to

562
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,360
mutualism.
It leads to symbiotic activity.

563
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,720
It leads to communal activity.
It leads to social activity.

564
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:51,600
It leads to give and take.
It leads to a kind of morality,

565
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,880
if you like.
That is certainly fundamentally

566
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,680
different to the concept that
we're all born selfish.

567
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,560
And it also leads to situations
like in packs of wolves, for

568
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:07,720
example, where equity matters.
And, you know, individual

569
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:13,040
members of a group of a pack in
wolves can be punished if they

570
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,360
don't behave correctly.
In others, they don't behave for

571
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:22,640
the sake of the of the group and
but at the same time as that is

572
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:27,120
the case, you still got to have
the outriders for evolution to

573
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,240
be able to occur.
You've still got to have those

574
00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:32,320
within the group that are going
to behave differently, who are

575
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,640
going to be out slightly outside
the norm.

576
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,320
And that at the social level is
also fundamentally creative.

577
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,680
And if you don't have that,
you're not going to be able to

578
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:52,200
evolve culturally and, and, and
adapt readily as, as groups.

579
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:58,120
So even even that moral
normativeness, if you like in

580
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,760
waffles has variability at the
edges.

581
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,800
I mean, it will allow certain
kinds of certain kinds of

582
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,640
behaviour which is is is not
conducive, so conducive to

583
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,200
maintaining the organization of
the pack.

584
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,880
I think it's, it's, there's
almost a, a beautiful mirroring.

585
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,520
Yeah, when you're talking about
that sticks, putting sticking

586
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,200
out and doing something creative
because you guys are doing

587
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,240
something similar in that regard
with your thought processes and

588
00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:28,960
trying to bring back some sort
of a, a holistic view of

589
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,200
everything.
Do you guys find that when you

590
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,920
approach your work, you're
attacked from two sides?

591
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,040
Let's say there's one group,
let's say materialists,

592
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,080
reductionists, because in, in a
sense, you are not necessarily

593
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,320
reducing us to our parts, but
acknowledging the extreme layers

594
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,040
of reality and then bringing
them all back together, which is

595
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,360
beautiful.
But then that means there's

596
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,760
there are going to be people out
there who still call you

597
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,880
reductionists and don't like it.
And then on on the flip side,

598
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,480
the reductionists who are
fundamental reductionist don't

599
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,400
like the fact that you guys are
almost bringing this holistic

600
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:02,600
aspect.
So you're almost stuck in the

601
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,520
middle, kind of kind of like
politics.

602
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,880
When someone's either extreme
left, extreme right, you're

603
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,360
kinda in, it's relational in the
middle zone.

604
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,080
Do you find that makes it a
little bit harder to get a point

605
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,840
across?
Well, you're putting your finger

606
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:19,200
on a very important divide, so
let's first of all get the

607
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:24,080
divide clear.
Just read page 18 as the biggest

608
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,120
textbook of evolutionary
biology.

609
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:32,600
Futuma and Kirkpatrick's book
just called Evolution, page 18

610
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,280
there there's AI.
Think it's page 18.

611
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,440
I could be out by a page 2.
Anyway, it's quite near the

612
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,600
beginning.
It's the only page in the book

613
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:48,400
that is devoted to philosophy,
and it is to dismiss it and it

614
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,400
ends with the statement.
There is no room in science for

615
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:58,280
purpose, full stop.
There's no justification, no

616
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,440
argument as to why that
statement is necessarily true.

617
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:09,080
That needs exposition.
It needs a philosophical

618
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,280
argument for why that should be
accepted.

619
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,000
There's none.
Now we are effectively saying,

620
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:23,680
not only are organisms
purposive, and evidently so, we

621
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:29,680
don't really need to bother too
much about precisely what that

622
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,720
range of purpose is.
We can see the purposiveness.

623
00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:38,120
But very interestingly, as
physiologists, we know also that

624
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:42,840
a purposive explanation actually
predicts downwards towards the

625
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,880
molecular level as to what kinds
of mechanisms must exist for

626
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,600
that purpose to exist than the
other way round.

627
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:59,440
What is interesting here is that
purposive explanations actually

628
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,400
lead to good science, good
reductionist science, if you

629
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,120
want to call it that.
That's the strange thing.

630
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:12,000
So we're by by making that
blanket statement, as happens in

631
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:18,440
for two minutes and and
Kirkpatrick's book, we are

632
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:23,560
actually closing off a major
scientific question.

633
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:29,040
What is this doing?
Why does it concern twin consume

634
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,160
20% of the total energy that we
use?

635
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,520
It's got nothing to do with
whether there's something

636
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,800
ghostly out there that, as it
were, as a goal that is

637
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,360
somewhere out there dragging us
towards something.

638
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,640
That sort of causation is not
involved.

639
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,960
All it's postulating is that
there is anticipation of what

640
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,960
might happen in the future, and
that has nothing to do with

641
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,120
backward time, causation, or
anything ghostly like that.

642
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:03,040
All it's got to have any
Organism is the ability to

643
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:10,280
anticipate very many different
reactions rapidly to crisis

644
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:15,240
situations, and that can only be
done by having anticipatory

645
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,520
process occurring inside here.
It's all good science.

646
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:25,520
There's absolutely no reason why
attributing purpose to organisms

647
00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:28,200
is non scientific.
That's rubbish.

648
00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:34,560
And by learning, and by learning
too, I mean, one of the crucial

649
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,040
things about that that enhances
anticipation is learning to

650
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,400
associate different levels of
activity.

651
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,120
Now in the old days,
behaviourists used to treat this

652
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:48,480
as in a reflexive kind of way,
associated reflexes and so on.

653
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,440
That if you, you know, if you
ring bells and things and then

654
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,640
stimulate the Organism, the
Organism learns to do whatever

655
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,840
it needs to do in order to do,
you know, to prevent being

656
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:02,720
electrocuted or whatever this
is, excuse me, The behaviourists

657
00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:06,240
wanted to do to them if they
didn't press the button or press

658
00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:09,280
the lever.
And then they started measuring,

659
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,640
measuring the behaviour, the
intelligence of the Organism

660
00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:15,600
about how well it responded in
that kind of environment.

661
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,200
I mean, if I bang you in a
chamber and then give you a, a

662
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,160
lever to pull and you
accidentally pull it one day

663
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,480
because you're starving.
You haven't been fed for a whole

664
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,440
day and 1/2 or two days or three
days or even a week.

665
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,000
And you accidentally press this
button or even just simply sit

666
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,320
there as a human being, cogitate
a bit and say, I wonder what

667
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:33,760
will happen if I press this
button.

668
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,800
And you press the button and
learn, behold, a peanut arrives

669
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:38,680
or something.
I mean, and you go on pressing

670
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,720
the button to get the peanut.
I mean, is that really a

671
00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:43,440
definition of human intelligence
up to some point?

672
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,560
It might be in the fact that we
learn, we learn to press things

673
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,240
and do things to create and so
on.

674
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,840
But what we're doing there is,
is reasoning.

675
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,840
And it's, it's a curious thing
that people want to leave the

676
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:56,960
reasoning out.
Oh, it's all reflexive.

677
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,960
Well, it isn't all reflexes.
I mean, if you look at the way a

678
00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:05,520
crow solves the problem of
getting, getting food out of a,

679
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:10,920
you know, jar of water and and
it starts doing it by doing all

680
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,280
sorts of creative things.
I mean, it was some, you know,

681
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:15,240
extraordinary imaginative
things.

682
00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:19,520
Like, for example, I mean, it
was the person Dennis who was

683
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,920
the, the, the, the chap who
weighed things by, by by the

684
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,120
displacement of water.
Remind me again.

685
00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:30,920
Who are we talking about?
Avogadro.

686
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,720
I don't know.
Anyway, he, he, he decided that

687
00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:37,880
you could measure things by
seeing amount of water that was

688
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,240
displaced.
Who's the chaplain to the Eureka

689
00:44:40,240 --> 00:44:42,280
thing in the bath, Dennis?
Wasn't it a displacement of

690
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:43,680
water?
The measurement?

691
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,400
I may be wrong, but I think
there's Evergardro.

692
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:48,520
Well, I can't remember anyway.
Whatever.

693
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:50,920
Whoever he was, you see.
I mean, is it?

694
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,280
It's a bit like the crow.
I mean, the crow knew that if

695
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,520
you could displace the water by
putting Oh yes, that was very

696
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,200
clever.
Of the crow, yes, that's.

697
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,640
Right.
I mean, then the water rises and

698
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,000
the thing that's floating in the
water gets to the point where it

699
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:06,840
can put its beacon and and
collect it.

700
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:11,000
Now indeed, that's a measure of
intelligence, everybody, and

701
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,320
it's a reason for the action.
Why is the crow doing that?

702
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,200
Why is?
He what you're getting at right,

703
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:19,640
yes.
So just coming quickly on this.

704
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,440
I think what you're getting at
is that the learning is

705
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,960
unlimited.
Yes, that's the point.

706
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,800
It's no longer reflexive because
it's unlimited.

707
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,720
Yes, unlimited associated
learning, which is the crucial

708
00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:41,520
ingredient of it and the so I
don't understand why they have a

709
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:46,760
such a problem with a reason
that they would seek to dismiss

710
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,120
it as a fundamental of
causality.

711
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,960
When you look at in at what
we've termed in our little book

712
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,640
Understanding living systems,
ecological intelligence.

713
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:02,800
Ecological intelligence is
precisely that understanding of

714
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:07,640
what is happening in the
environment and why, and the why

715
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:12,440
is as important to all organisms
as it is to us.

716
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,520
If, if Jack and Jill go up the
hill to fetch a pail of water,

717
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,320
and I ask you, why did Jack and
Jill go up the hill?

718
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,720
You might say, because you now
know they went up the hill to

719
00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:29,600
fetch a pail of water.
Jack fell down and broke his

720
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,840
crown.
And I ask you, why did Jack fall

721
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,880
down?
You don't answer that simply by

722
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,760
how did Jack fall down, although
you might try.

723
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,440
You may say, well, he slipped on
a stone and and lost his

724
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,360
balance.
And I might say to you, but what

725
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,880
if Jill pushed him?
They were playing, having fun,

726
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:55,200
flirting with each other, and
she pushed him and he tripped on

727
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,960
a stone and fell down the hill
and broke his crown.

728
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:03,760
The only way you can understand
that situation is by reason, the

729
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,680
reason, and it's the problem,
and it's a philosophical

730
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,560
problem.
No doubt the reason may be

731
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:16,960
wrong, and what we do with that
in practice as organisms is to

732
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,480
try and work out the probability
of it being wrong.

733
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,040
And even then we may not be
right when we see a chimpanzee

734
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:30,520
pick up a stone because we have
learnt that chimpanzees use

735
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:35,000
stones sometimes.
Not all chimpanzees do this, but

736
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:40,160
groups of chimpanzees use stones
to crack nuts, and it's good for

737
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,880
them because they can crack nuts
that are harder to crack just by

738
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:48,520
their hands alone.
And so they find and repurpose

739
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,640
stones.
They even reshape the stones in

740
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,760
order to make them better suited
to cracking nuts.

741
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,920
They'll even secrete a really
good stone so that they can go

742
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,080
back to it and use it again when
needed.

743
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:05,160
All these are reasons.
How can you possibly understand

744
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,400
chimpanzee behaviour without
knowing those reasons?

745
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,240
You can't.
Now, you may be wrong in your

746
00:48:11,240 --> 00:48:14,560
anticipation when you see a
chimpanzee pick up a stone and

747
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,120
you think, ah, he's going to
crack nuts.

748
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,640
Well, I may be wrong.
He may crack heads with it.

749
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,760
He may throw it at you.
He may be fed up with you, a

750
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,920
silly behaviourist trying to
understand his intelligence by

751
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,960
not taking into account the fact
that he has reasons for doing

752
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,240
things.
And the chimpanzee also will

753
00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:34,120
look at other chimpanzees and
when they, when they see them

754
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,200
picking up stairs, they might
think also we're going to crack

755
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,320
nuts.
But they may have already learnt

756
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:45,240
too, that sometimes some
recalcitrant chimpanzees use it

757
00:48:45,240 --> 00:48:47,880
to throw at them and do other
things with it.

758
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,720
And these are the the problem is
that it's not easily measurable.

759
00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:55,120
It's not easy to know when
you're right.

760
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:00,960
And philosophy teaches us that
that's true of so many problems.

761
00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:08,920
You know, even the problem of,
of understanding of reality in

762
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,040
perception is, is a fundamental
1.

763
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:14,880
And unless we understand the
difficulties inherent in it, I

764
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,480
don't understand how we can be
good scientists, as it were.

765
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,880
Because science is to some
extent looking for better ways

766
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,760
of measuring the reasons why
something happens, or the

767
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:30,960
purpose, or the the causes.
And if reasons are part of the

768
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,320
'cause we need to find ways of
seeing how they can be.

769
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,000
Yes.
That I think is part of what we

770
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:44,840
were trying to do in one of our
articles Ray, and our tentative

771
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,640
solution.
There is an alignment issue.

772
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:56,560
How is it that the processes
occurring here can align out of

773
00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:00,720
many behavioural options which
is already got because it has a

774
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,760
huge behavioural repertoire
there?

775
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:11,120
How does it align that best with
what the social context, as it

776
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,000
were, dictates?
But we'll use the word dictate

777
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:19,000
carefully, doesn't mean to say
determined, but rather

778
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:24,240
encourages certain ways of
acting better than others.

779
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:30,680
And I, I think it's hard to deny
that we align our behaviour with

780
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,680
our moral and other social
convictions.

781
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,760
Otherwise, how did the social
group hang together?

782
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:43,160
That is part of the social
hanging together.

783
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:45,840
And it will be different in
different cultures.

784
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:50,720
There are some cultures that
forbid kissing in public.

785
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,760
There are others that accept it.
It's as different as that.

786
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,720
And that, of course, would be,
let's say, Paris at one end and

787
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,160
and Japan, Tokyo at the other
end.

788
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,120
And you know, they they will
have their own differences on

789
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:10,600
what they regard as it being
desirable to align yourself to,

790
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:14,680
but they are necessary because
they're aligned, allowing that

791
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,520
alignment, and because there is
cohesion.

792
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:20,720
Yeah.
And also the, the other thing

793
00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:23,840
that this leads to is which I
think is significant in what

794
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:27,200
we've been trying to, to say to,
to people, which is that

795
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:33,560
materialism is not incompatible
with free will.

796
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:37,440
It's it materialism isn't the
same as deterministic.

797
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:40,960
Mechanical system is
deterministic.

798
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,720
If you look at clock, clock, how
clocks work and the clockwork

799
00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:47,880
works as clockwork and it, and
it does it in ways that it's

800
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,400
going to do it.
Once you've wound it up, it'll

801
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,640
do it.
And, and it's readily

802
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:57,040
predictable because it does it
in a deterministic way.

803
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:02,000
But that is not the fundamental
of materialism, as we made the

804
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:06,920
point clear earlier, that one of
the fundamentals in life is the

805
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:13,520
extraordinary stochasticity.
And much of life functions by

806
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,320
harnessing that.
The very nature of our

807
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,760
functioning of our brains, for
example, is dependent upon

808
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,760
harnessing the stochasticity of,
of ions, different ions within

809
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:29,240
the nerve cells and with the
synapses there, there's a huge

810
00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:31,360
amount of variability which is
harnessed.

811
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,520
And, and you, when you look at
nerves, what are they?

812
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:38,160
I mean, I was a neuroscientist
after many years, I trained as a

813
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:40,520
neuroscientist, a zoologist and
a neuroscientist.

814
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,880
And I, I, I tell you where, you
know, some people might think

815
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,440
well, you know, you would, you
would reductionist because you

816
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:50,680
were looking at what individual
cells were doing in the nervous

817
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,320
system.
Because I did I quite proud of

818
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,240
the fact that I was able to
record intracellularly as if

819
00:52:56,240 --> 00:52:58,640
this was some grand landing on
the moon.

820
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:00,280
You know, great kind of
achievement.

821
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,800
You land inside the cell with an
electrode and you record the

822
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,040
potential difference across the
membrane.

823
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,240
And I was doing it with
particular kind of cells.

824
00:53:08,240 --> 00:53:11,600
I was interested in receptive
fields in the skin, how our

825
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,680
somatosensory system, how do we
sense the environment in terms

826
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:19,800
of touch.
And there were various ideas

827
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,200
that we had as a background to
what we were looking at.

828
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:26,600
And one of those was that how we
locate a stimulus on the skin

829
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:32,680
depended on the lability of the
receptive fields of the sensory

830
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:39,680
cells, that they could be those
sensory, those sensory fields,

831
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:45,120
those receptive fields, moment
by moment could change in their

832
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:51,480
size in the area moment by
moment by using a combination of

833
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:55,280
excitatory and inhibitory
processes within the

834
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:59,880
somatosensory system.
And so when we, when you, when

835
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:02,680
you record the neurons, you find
that this is exactly the case.

836
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,200
You, you, you map out the
receptive field under certain

837
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:08,720
conditions.
And then what we did was to see

838
00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:12,240
what happens to those receptive
fields if you do touch the skin.

839
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:14,960
And if you touch the skin, the
receptive fields shrink.

840
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:21,920
And what this does is to is to
enable the system to have

841
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:27,120
greater acuity.
And by doing that, it is more

842
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,440
able to locate the stimulus on
the skin.

843
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:36,520
Now that doesn't mean that the
answer was self-evident in what

844
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,160
we were doing by recording the
cells.

845
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,640
When you record the cells, you,
you, you, you pop inside a cell

846
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,640
and you hear this terrible
waffle going on all the time.

847
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,080
In in sound.
We translate the electrical

848
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:53,080
activity in sound.
And what all this waffling is

849
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:56,960
are the electrical potentials.
And what those electrical

850
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:02,240
potentials are, are the exchange
of ions of charged particles

851
00:55:02,240 --> 00:55:04,800
across the membrane going
waffle, waffle, waffle, waffle,

852
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:06,840
waffle.
Sometimes the waffling waffle,

853
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,800
waffle, waffle, waffle, waffle
get close, gets closer to what's

854
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:16,240
called the the action potential.
If you like the threshold for

855
00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:18,960
generating an action potential,
and then the cell will generate

856
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:21,240
an action potential or more
likely a burst of action

857
00:55:21,240 --> 00:55:23,920
potentials and you get a
different kind of sound.

858
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,800
You see, I mean, it's full of
sound in terms of what we

859
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:31,640
translated as, but the point
here is that waffling is going

860
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,120
on all the time.
This is waffling.

861
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,760
All this waffle and spurting and
splashing is going on in our

862
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,080
brain all the time.
If you were to monitor what's

863
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:43,520
happening at the synapses,
billions of them, billions of

864
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,320
synapses going on here all the
time, it's waffling.

865
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:50,880
But that waffling is kind of
like, it's like having a, a lump

866
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:56,240
of soggy clay on a Potter's
wheel, that it can be shaped and

867
00:55:56,240 --> 00:55:59,800
changed in response to various
states.

868
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:04,680
States.
And in a, in a sense, this goes

869
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:07,120
back to this idea of states as
consciousness.

870
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:10,760
What is consciousness?
Consciousness is a state of

871
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:14,400
being.
It is no more than that.

872
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:17,920
And in a sense it is far more
than that.

873
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:24,000
But because it it, it gives us
the ability to sense our own

874
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:30,920
sensing, to be aware of our
integrity.

875
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:36,280
It's a consciousness to me is
like a readiness, if you like to

876
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:41,280
act, and thereby anticipatory.
And it goes back to what Dennis

877
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:45,880
was saying earlier, that the key
thing there is anticipation is,

878
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,640
is the state of readiness and
anticipating what it is that's

879
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:50,800
going on in the world.
Regardless of whether we're

880
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:54,640
right about it.
We cannot function without that.

881
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:57,480
And that is consciousness.
You don't.

882
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:01,480
That is Dennis, isn't it?
Just briefly, there are what are

883
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:05,880
called readiness potentials in
the nervous system that have

884
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:12,120
been recorded as inevitably what
happens when you are in the

885
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:16,400
process of making a decision.
It's it's fascinating, it really

886
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:18,960
is.
They are readiness potentials.

887
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:23,000
The system is getting itself
geared up and we feel that

888
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,400
consciously too.
It is well that is the feeling

889
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:28,880
that is the consciousness,
Dennis, that is the conscious

890
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,120
and, and, and you, you.
But you know, I'll say

891
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,560
something, I'll say something
really highly controversial now,

892
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:37,120
something Dennis and I've been
discussing more recently and

893
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,560
also with other colleagues.
I have to say, and a lot of this

894
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:43,080
comes from discussions with a
group that we interact with in

895
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:47,440
Edinburgh, that or based in
Edinburgh that looks at choices

896
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,520
and the biology of choices,
choices in systems and

897
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:54,440
organisms.
And, and obviously anticipation

898
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:59,520
is a vital aspect of choice
because you, you can't really

899
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:03,000
make it without some
anticipation of what the result

900
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:05,320
will be of any decision or
action that you take.

901
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,640
So there's an enormous amount
of, of anticipation involved in

902
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:14,480
how organisms make choices.
But all organisms make choices,

903
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,600
and all all organisms have
states of readiness to make

904
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:23,640
choices.
And all organisms, to varying

905
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:29,640
degrees, indeed have an ability
to identify self in some kind of

906
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:33,560
functional way.
They they don't all eat their

907
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:36,400
own backsides, for example,
because they recognize the fact

908
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,520
that it is self as it were.
Now they don't do don't do it.

909
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:43,360
In a linguistic way, like I've
just done, they don't use the

910
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,960
word self.
That's me, and I am who I am.

911
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:50,280
They don't do it linguistically,
but we do.

912
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:52,640
And that is another level of
doing it.

913
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:58,000
But it doesn't mean that
consciousness, as it were, has

914
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:01,080
simply emerged out of that
process of doing.

915
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:05,680
You know, one can just as
readily see things like

916
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:13,400
readiness and, and, and a sense
of integrity at, at very, very

917
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,680
low level forms of life.
I don't like the word low level.

918
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:21,680
They're extraordinarily complex
and, and, you know, and, and

919
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:26,960
have an enormous range of
functional capacity.

920
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:32,440
And what we tend to do with the
lower forms is to just simply

921
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:38,320
regard them in a robotic, excuse
me, in a robotic kind of way

922
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,400
that they just an algorithm
could explain their behaviour.

923
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,600
In large part, yes, indeed.
I mean, if you look at a

924
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,680
paramecium, it sort of moves
forward and bumps into something

925
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:51,440
and then comes back and changes
it's angle of approach and moves

926
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:54,160
forward and eventually it gets
around the object.

927
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:58,200
That's a kind of intelligence in
a way.

928
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,800
But they'll say, Oh well, that's
just simply an algorithm.

929
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:06,640
When you get very, very complex
algorithms that involve a choice

930
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:11,960
between algorithms, how do you
choose which algorithm to

931
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:15,360
insert?
If you like, and we don't like

932
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:18,760
the the idea of inserting an
algorithm in variability isn't

933
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:22,080
just inserted within a various
system to create decision

934
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:25,520
making.
The the, the variabilities exist

935
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,400
in all, all the time throughout
everywhere in the system.

936
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:31,280
It's variability, it's
stochastic.

937
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:36,200
The the, the, the the problem is
not so much that.

938
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:39,320
The problem is how does the
system constrain it.

939
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:44,880
And it it, it leads to what
we've called boundary conditions

940
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:48,760
and the way the boundaries
function as bolting this

941
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:54,280
stochasticity into reasoned
function, objective

942
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:58,640
functionality.
And but, but not only do we say

943
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:00,480
that it does that, but we
actually say that that

944
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:04,840
definitively is what reason is
If, if that makes any kind of

945
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:06,800
sense.
What do you have to?

946
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,240
Do here Ray, just to come in
briefly on this.

947
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:12,480
What you have to do is to
distinguish between the

948
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:18,520
different forms of causation.
Much of it social context is

949
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:22,400
causation by form, not by
mechanism.

950
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:25,680
And that was a fundamental
distinction introduced by

951
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:32,480
Aristotle in his De Anima 2000
odd years ago.

952
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:37,920
And that's again to come back to
dear Richard.

953
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:40,240
I can't dear Richard for so many
for so long.

954
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:44,200
But you know, he, he, he just
ignores this distinction.

955
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:48,560
He just, he says, well, genes
are our causes and but he

956
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:53,200
doesn't clarify what he means by
a 'cause I say they are

957
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:58,000
effectively as sequences, causes
of form.

958
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:03,920
It is the form of the sequence
that is used to translate into

959
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:09,800
an RNA and then into protein.
The DNA itself doesn't do

960
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:13,680
anything about that.
It gets read, yes, but it

961
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:17,480
doesn't actually.
It is not an active process, and

962
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:21,680
this distinction between active
and passive causation is utterly

963
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:26,520
fundamental in Physiology.
If I measure, for example, the

964
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:30,680
association level between
knocking out a particular gene

965
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:35,280
that's responsible for pacemaker
rhythm and observe a change in

966
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:40,520
rhythm, maybe 10%.
I also know as a physiologist

967
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:45,280
that's worked out the full
dynamic causation that the

968
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:51,520
actual contribution can be 80%.
The difference between active

969
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:58,840
causation and associative score,
which is what the G was people

970
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:03,880
are measuring, is fundamental.
You can have AG was score of 0

971
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:07,960
and there can still be a huge
contribution to causation.

972
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:10,880
It's just that the system is
very robust.

973
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:15,640
If one mechanism doesn't work,
it uses another one and that is

974
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:19,240
fundamental here and it's the
reason why most of the G was

975
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:23,040
scores are very low.
The only ones that are high are

976
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:26,960
the ones that occur for the
monogenetic diseases where

977
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:30,800
everybody would agree that if
you've got cystic fibrosis, the

978
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:33,480
the genes for that you'll have
cystic fibrosis.

979
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:37,680
Not much you can do about it,
but they affect only roughly

980
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:39,920
speaking, of 5% of the
population.

981
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:43,800
That's not to deny that that's
important to that 5%.

982
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:48,960
It is, but for the great
majority, 95% of the association

983
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:52,560
scores are so low that they're
almost useless for medical

984
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:55,200
purposes.
Does anybody go and take their

985
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:59,480
genome to their doctor?
Do I go with a great big book of

986
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:05,320
my CGS, A's and T's and say to
my doctor, Joe, could you take a

987
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:08,040
look at this?
He he would laugh me out of

988
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:10,880
court.
You, you, you're touching on

989
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:15,440
something quite important there,
Dennis, in the sense that when

990
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:18,000
we consider twin studies, and I
think you guys also touched on

991
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:20,840
this on your paper, can reasons
and values influence action?

992
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:24,200
Or how might intentional agency
work physiologically, which

993
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:27,200
we'll touch on because I do want
to focus on that macro level

994
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:29,960
causation versus micro level
causation, how you're able to

995
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:33,240
bring this up with harnessing
stochasticity.

996
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:36,040
But the one thing you guys touch
on is the fact that in twin

997
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:39,560
studies, you'll notice how the
genome there is fine prepped,

998
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:42,160
ready to go.
However, both twins are not

999
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:44,160
actively getting the same
information from the mother's

1000
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:46,360
womb.
So while one might be receiving

1001
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:48,400
a little bit more blood flow,
the other one might be receiving

1002
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,760
a little bit more nutrients.
There's a varying, there's,

1003
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,400
there's so much complexity here
and so many variables to

1004
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:57,280
consider that it's impossible
for us to actually just say that

1005
01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:01,960
you can take ACTA and commanders
to have someone produce a

1006
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:03,440
certain outcome.
It's not fixed.

1007
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:06,640
It's very, very variable.
Do you want to touch on that any

1008
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:10,840
of you guys?
Well, briefly from my point of

1009
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:17,440
view, the egg cell of course, is
critical in determining which

1010
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:22,920
genes get activated initially.
It isn't the DNA that determines

1011
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:26,640
that.
It is the egg cell that has the

1012
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:31,280
right mix, if you want to call
it right, a mix, let's put it

1013
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:37,040
that way, a bit more neutral of
controlled molecules, RNAs and

1014
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:41,080
transcription factors which are
characteristic of that

1015
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:44,200
particular egg cell.
Which is why I don't think

1016
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:48,400
anybody's going to recreate the
my mother's egg cell as it was

1017
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,880
in February 1936 is as simple as
that.

1018
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:58,880
They're all different.
And so the idea that somehow or

1019
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:06,560
another you can get away from
the contextual form of causation

1020
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:09,960
which triggers the beginning of
development, I think it's just

1021
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:12,720
nonsense.
You need to know the initial

1022
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:15,320
conditions for the development.
We don't know.

1023
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:20,560
That's that's a big issue still,
it's an open area of Physiology

1024
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:23,040
that needs more, more
experimentation.

1025
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:28,120
It, it is an area of Physiology
that I was also involved in area

1026
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:30,880
as well as having been a sensory
physiologist.

1027
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:36,760
I, I became a joint director of
fetal and neonatal research

1028
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:41,480
group at University College and
one of the things that the group

1029
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:47,000
were looking at was the way in
which the maternal system

1030
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:53,320
influences the developmental
choices of the fetal system and

1031
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:58,320
the way the placenta largely
through epigenetic processing

1032
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:04,000
that can be changed in order to
adapt to different states of

1033
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:10,280
nutrition of maternal nutrition.
And the the outcomes comes can

1034
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:14,080
be extraordinarily different.
And remember that we're dealing

1035
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:18,920
with in a sense, genomes that
would be precisely the same

1036
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:22,960
other than those early
developmental conditions.

1037
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:30,240
And it the a group in
Southampton have looked at this

1038
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:34,760
in in terms of human women and
looked at this

1039
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:38,200
transgenerationally and found
that, for example, liver

1040
01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:42,080
function, which is determined
within the womb.

1041
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:47,240
The metabolics strategy, if you
like, of the of the developing

1042
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:54,360
fetus dictates the metabolic
strategy post natally and

1043
01:07:54,560 --> 01:08:01,160
through to adulthood and that
also can be passed on further

1044
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:04,760
generationally depends very much
on the circumstances.

1045
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:07,480
But they have found
transgenerational changes even

1046
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:12,520
within humans and it to me this
was the key evidence to show

1047
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:17,120
that there can be acquired
characteristics and many of

1048
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:21,439
those acquired characteristics
operate when the system is much

1049
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:26,000
more open to change.
So and there are certain periods

1050
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:27,920
of development when that is the
case.

1051
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:30,520
One is the developing embryo and
the fetus.

1052
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:34,880
The other, of course, is during
adolescence, and another,

1053
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:38,040
curiously, is when we come to
older age.

1054
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:43,840
This is why I referred to this
earlier, the fact that the

1055
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:49,319
system adapts differently as an
older system, but it is

1056
01:08:49,319 --> 01:08:51,520
nonetheless a dynamic
adaptation.

1057
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:54,200
It's not just simply a
deterioration, it's taking

1058
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:57,840
account of the fact that one's
faculties are now as it were,

1059
01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:03,279
not as, as adaptable.
And you know, we know that, for

1060
01:09:03,279 --> 01:09:09,640
example, I suffer tremendously
from hypertension and, and, and

1061
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:13,040
that's not going to go away, but
it can be treated if we know

1062
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:15,279
about it, if you see what I
mean, what what's occurring

1063
01:09:15,279 --> 01:09:17,120
there physiologically and
functionally.

1064
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:22,040
And we know also that different,
different people will have

1065
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:27,080
different degrees of that kind
of problem as they age.

1066
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:30,279
And a lot of that is
epigenetically determined,

1067
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:33,319
curiously enough, by what
happened to you in the womb.

1068
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:36,279
And, and that is an
extraordinary.

1069
01:09:36,279 --> 01:09:41,680
So working out what's cause and
effect depends on the time, the

1070
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:46,560
way in which the Organism
subsequently develops, the range

1071
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:51,479
of possible outcomes that can
be, for example, produced

1072
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:55,880
through exercise and various
other things, and all on the

1073
01:09:55,880 --> 01:10:00,200
basis of the same genome.
Do you think that it's it's

1074
01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:04,800
quite it would be almost
impossible for someone who does

1075
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:09,360
consider this to be a
deterministic world that the

1076
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:11,960
immeasurable amounts of
variables to consider.

1077
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:14,440
I mean, it's, it's incalculable.
So it's it's, it's something

1078
01:10:14,440 --> 01:10:17,800
that at no point we're ever
going to be able to do this.

1079
01:10:18,120 --> 01:10:20,600
So there's almost an arrogance
here in assuming that it's

1080
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:25,280
possible.
Well, we're never going to put

1081
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:29,520
it because it's not too
difficult to calculate that

1082
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:36,400
you'd need for some of these
potential computations, like

1083
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:41,960
computing the activity of all
the water molecules in a single

1084
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:45,520
cell.
That would require computational

1085
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:49,280
power that would probably
require most of the material in

1086
01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:53,200
the solar system to build it.
I mean, it's not too difficult

1087
01:10:53,200 --> 01:11:00,480
to see once computational
explosion is rampant as it is in

1088
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:05,960
systems made of water, you
simply you're never going to be

1089
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:09,120
able to do fully molecular level
computations.

1090
01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:15,800
People try and even computing
let's say how an iron has its

1091
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:20,000
water molecules surrounding it
because they're all polar and

1092
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:23,920
they will line up like magnets
and how far out this goes and

1093
01:11:24,080 --> 01:11:29,680
how far you have to go out and
also what state is the water in.

1094
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:33,760
There are more than just frozen
and fluid.

1095
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:38,920
There are many states, as we
know from the snowflake issue,

1096
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:43,160
in which water can, as it were,
form itself.

1097
01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:48,760
And again, it's an interaction
between what is in the water,

1098
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:53,120
the proteins, the RNAs and and
goodness knows how many

1099
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:59,160
metabolites, hormones and other
things, each of which will in a

1100
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:03,680
relativistic way determine
partly what the water is doing.

1101
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:09,040
The fact is that it's it's
incomputable at a molecular

1102
01:12:09,040 --> 01:12:10,960
level.
I think it's as simple as that.

1103
01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:15,160
There's a very funny thing here
that comes about as well, which

1104
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:17,760
you see, you see, and obviously,
you know, we're physiologists.

1105
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:20,080
I mean, sorry, another hat.
Again, you keep wearing

1106
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:23,200
different hats.
But it's a very interesting

1107
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:26,840
thing that one of the criticisms
that we do receive sometimes is

1108
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:29,000
the fact that we're not, you
know, well, what do you know

1109
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:33,120
about evolution?
And they, they also say to, they

1110
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:36,960
say to us how mathematics works,
how computations work.

1111
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:39,760
Well, really, because you
decided what the end product

1112
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:42,120
should be, which is maintaining
genes in a gene pool.

1113
01:12:42,440 --> 01:12:45,320
But once you've done that, yes,
you can get a result and show

1114
01:12:45,320 --> 01:12:47,280
that, well, they behave like
this in order to maintain their

1115
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:49,040
genes in a gene pool by behaving
like that.

1116
01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:54,720
But our answer to them is, well,
we're physiologists and our

1117
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:58,160
computations work as well, but
they're fundamentally different

1118
01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:00,840
from your computations.
Exactly.

1119
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:05,560
Yes, that's right.
Most of the population genetics

1120
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:12,280
computations are not dynamic.
They're looking for to what will

1121
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:16,400
the system tend to go, which is
a valid way of looking at things

1122
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:20,520
and don't deny that.
But we as physiologists are

1123
01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:26,160
necessarily concerned with how
does it move from where it is to

1124
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:31,400
where it might go, and that
requires dynamic differential

1125
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:36,240
equation models.
And also we're concerned as, as

1126
01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:42,000
behaviourists as well as
physiologists with why does it

1127
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:44,640
happen?
And, and, and again, you need

1128
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:47,960
different kinds of computation
to understand that.

1129
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:52,400
And so this idea that there's a,
one way of calculating things

1130
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:55,960
and then having a system that
works because it works.

1131
01:13:55,960 --> 01:13:58,560
I mean, we've had this said to
us at meetings, you know, that

1132
01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:01,000
why fix something that isn't
broken?

1133
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:05,200
Well, we say this fine, it does
what you want it to do and it

1134
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:10,080
gives you an explanation within
a certain, certain bounds, but

1135
01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:15,280
it isn't applicable to either
the Physiology as such.

1136
01:14:15,320 --> 01:14:19,280
And in terms of purpose for
something to occur, I mean the

1137
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:24,360
function of a cell, for example,
within a system can be

1138
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:27,640
differential within the system.
And so you could then say as a

1139
01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:31,120
physiologist, the purpose of
that cell is to do whatever it's

1140
01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:33,360
doing.
So some cells might be filtering

1141
01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:37,480
in say the, the relation to the
kidney at at functions of the of

1142
01:14:37,480 --> 01:14:41,760
the renal system and other cells
may be concerned with creating

1143
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:45,040
osmotic gradients and so on.
You see, but you can identify

1144
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:47,360
this is what's so wonderful
about Physiology and anatomy.

1145
01:14:47,360 --> 01:14:51,040
You can see the most beautiful
arrangements in order to

1146
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:55,320
generate these osmotic
gradients, which are how our

1147
01:14:55,320 --> 01:15:00,280
phenol system functions, and
then the way it utilises pumps

1148
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:05,000
in order to create these
extraordinary gradients.

1149
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:09,560
The ways nerve cells generate
electrical gradients which they

1150
01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:13,160
can then use to generate
signals, The way the signals are

1151
01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:18,720
used in order to generate the
release of chemicals held in

1152
01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:22,920
packets, membrane packets in
quanta that are released at

1153
01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:26,080
synapses to 'cause these things.
And you know, we as

1154
01:15:26,080 --> 01:15:28,880
physiologists see those things
happening as it were.

1155
01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:34,400
And so we understand reason
within that context too.

1156
01:15:34,440 --> 01:15:37,680
And then at the behavioural
level we understand reason in

1157
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:40,480
the same way as we were
referring to the chimpanzee

1158
01:15:40,480 --> 01:15:44,680
using a stone to crack nuts.
And you don't, you don't go into

1159
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:47,280
a different realm by doing that.
You're talking about the same

1160
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:49,240
problem.
How do we understand behaviour?

1161
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:52,800
And we can understand it at
various levels, and those levels

1162
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:56,760
are interactive in causal
functionality.

1163
01:15:57,000 --> 01:15:59,240
They're not all one way.
They're going backwards,

1164
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:01,880
forwards, sideways.
Some of them are just simply

1165
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:05,560
conditional.
The, the beauty, I mean plants,

1166
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:10,000
if you touch them, it can
generate this extraordinary

1167
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:14,440
calcium transient within the
cells of the leaves and so on.

1168
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:16,800
And this spreads through the
system.

1169
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:19,720
And it, what that does is to
create a state of readiness, a

1170
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:21,640
preparedness that something is
happening.

1171
01:16:21,960 --> 01:16:24,760
But if you look again at plants,
you find that it's actually

1172
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:28,520
extraordinarily exquisite
because plants respond in

1173
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:31,560
different ways depending on what
it is that has touched it.

1174
01:16:33,480 --> 01:16:37,520
Now that is amazing.
And so you can, in that context,

1175
01:16:37,520 --> 01:16:42,200
you see context, you see say
that the plant responded in this

1176
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:47,200
way because it was touched by
that Organism and not by that

1177
01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:51,200
kind of Organism.
There is reason, you say, and

1178
01:16:51,200 --> 01:16:54,160
you cannot understand that
ecological context without

1179
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:57,600
understanding the reason.
You can't explain it without

1180
01:16:57,600 --> 01:17:00,080
that.
And that's I in a sense, that's

1181
01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:03,680
all we are saying.
And why it is that people get so

1182
01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:06,880
cross about it.
It goes back, I think the fact

1183
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:10,080
that they want to either they
want to have this strange, you

1184
01:17:10,080 --> 01:17:15,520
know, duality that the one never
meets anywhere and can explain

1185
01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:18,120
the same thing.
We're explaining the same thing.

1186
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:22,280
Actually, red goes deeper,
doesn't it?

1187
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:28,600
Historically, because once they
inserted the Weisman barrier as

1188
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:33,120
an absolute barrier, that
automatically excluded any

1189
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:36,480
physiological influence on the
next generation.

1190
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:40,720
It's as simple as that.
Once you know that that barrier

1191
01:17:40,720 --> 01:17:44,520
doesn't stop the control
processes from influencing the

1192
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:48,280
next generation, everything is
open again and you cannot

1193
01:17:48,280 --> 01:17:51,680
exclude Physiology from being
part of what determines the

1194
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:55,440
direction of evolution.
And that's just straightforward

1195
01:17:55,440 --> 01:17:59,400
Is again coming back to the
fundamental molecular biological

1196
01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:05,720
detail that I outlined earlier.
Once you admit that DNA is not a

1197
01:18:05,720 --> 01:18:09,480
self replicator, so it cannot
replicate accurately

1198
01:18:09,480 --> 01:18:11,520
independently of the cell
itself.

1199
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:14,680
In other words, there's no
replicator separate from the

1200
01:18:14,680 --> 01:18:17,440
vehicle.
And once you've also abandoned

1201
01:18:17,440 --> 01:18:22,000
the Weisman barrier, you can no
longer exclude physiological

1202
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:25,280
processes from having a role in
the evolutionary process.

1203
01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:29,760
Now I was told many times by
Richard in the debate with him

1204
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:34,080
two years ago, Dennis, you're a
Physiology just I'm an

1205
01:18:34,080 --> 01:18:37,440
evolutionary biologist and the
two are not the same.

1206
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:42,200
I say you cannot exclude one
from the other.

1207
01:18:42,440 --> 01:18:49,200
It it doesn't unless you hang on
as it were at all costs to the

1208
01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:51,880
vice and barrier and to self
replication.

1209
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:55,640
And neither of those are true.
It's a, it's a beautiful gap if

1210
01:18:55,640 --> 01:18:58,480
you think about it, a
physiologist and Even so, me as

1211
01:18:58,480 --> 01:19:01,040
a, as a medical doctor, I mean,
without Physiology bridging that

1212
01:19:01,040 --> 01:19:04,400
gap, that biological gap to the
psychological system, Physiology

1213
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:06,240
plays the most fundamental role
here.

1214
01:19:07,120 --> 01:19:10,440
It has pains, a holistic pitch.
I mean, as you guys, to quote

1215
01:19:10,440 --> 01:19:13,920
you guys, organisms do not
behave as rational calculators.

1216
01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:19,840
That's a fundamental process.
Darwin spent the last 10 years

1217
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:23,160
of his life collaborating with
the physiologist George Romanis

1218
01:19:23,600 --> 01:19:29,280
because he was determined to see
whether his idea of well, he

1219
01:19:29,280 --> 01:19:32,680
didn't know about the supposed
barrier because that only came

1220
01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:38,720
in 1883 when he had passed away.
But he was clear that there had

1221
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:43,560
to be processes that communicate
from the soma to the germline,

1222
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:49,000
and he spent a lot of time
interacting with George Romani

1223
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:53,320
is to try to prove that with
various hybridisations.

1224
01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:56,760
What was missing in the 19th
century was the knowledge of

1225
01:19:56,760 --> 01:19:59,400
epigenetics.
Once you've got epigenetics,

1226
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:04,160
you've got the environment
through physiological processes

1227
01:20:04,160 --> 01:20:08,240
of epigenetic nature controlling
the way the genome is

1228
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:12,000
interpreted.
And it doesn't even need that.

1229
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:15,200
It should be transmitted by the
genome because.

1230
01:20:15,480 --> 01:20:19,920
Culturally it can be transmitted
without any bothering with the

1231
01:20:20,280 --> 01:20:25,320
DNA, and if an environmental
change lasts a long time, which

1232
01:20:25,320 --> 01:20:28,760
is the only environmental
changes of interest evolutionary

1233
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:33,680
wise, then so will the
epigenetic effects exist for a

1234
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:37,080
long time, even if there's no
assimilation into the genome.

1235
01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:42,120
These are fundamental facts
which I'm afraid neo Darwinist

1236
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:46,640
rivals have just simply missed.
Haven't seen the significance of

1237
01:20:46,640 --> 01:20:48,880
it.
What they will say is oh it all

1238
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:51,080
dies out after a generation or
two.

1239
01:20:51,720 --> 01:20:57,360
But that's only true if you have
a point influence from the

1240
01:20:57,640 --> 01:21:00,440
environment.
If you maintain the environment,

1241
01:21:00,440 --> 01:21:03,120
it will maintain the epigenetic
change.

1242
01:21:03,320 --> 01:21:07,080
It's so obvious as to hardly
need to be expressed.

1243
01:21:08,480 --> 01:21:10,200
Another thing I really enjoy is
the way you guys have

1244
01:21:10,200 --> 01:21:14,160
incorporated music into this
understanding of life and this

1245
01:21:14,200 --> 01:21:16,640
this beautiful synchronicity of
the both of them.

1246
01:21:16,640 --> 01:21:17,800
Do you want to explore that a
bit?

1247
01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:23,960
Well, I did that in The Music of
life, deliberately of course,

1248
01:21:24,200 --> 01:21:28,160
but that was done largely to
produce a different metaphor

1249
01:21:28,160 --> 01:21:31,760
from Richard Dawkins, metaphor
of the selfish gene.

1250
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:35,040
And so that was his main
function.

1251
01:21:35,520 --> 01:21:39,720
But actually, I've come to think
that there's more to it than

1252
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:45,440
just an alternative metaphor.
What is being synchronised when

1253
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:49,800
respiration is synchronised with
heartbeat variation?

1254
01:21:50,160 --> 01:21:56,560
What is being synchronised when
the processes of circadian

1255
01:21:56,560 --> 01:22:01,160
rhythm are are synchronised with
various hormonal changes?

1256
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:06,840
This is all harmonisation to
vary degrees.

1257
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:11,280
I mean, you can argue about what
kind of music this might be, and

1258
01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:15,920
it may not be Bath light, it may
or even be Beethoven light.

1259
01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:20,320
It may be more like avant-garde
than either of those.

1260
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:25,680
But nevertheless, there is,
there's a sense in which there

1261
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:31,680
almost has to be that kind of
resonance across different

1262
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:35,880
processes within the body
because it's continually seeking

1263
01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:41,920
for, well, you might call it the
best compromise because they

1264
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:44,520
will all want to go off in
different directions.

1265
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:48,120
You've always got to have a kind
of compromise on what is

1266
01:22:48,120 --> 01:22:50,920
regulated this much with the
kidney function, what is

1267
01:22:51,080 --> 01:22:55,160
regulated that much with the
circulatory system and with the

1268
01:22:55,400 --> 01:22:58,080
hormonal system and the immune
system and so on.

1269
01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:01,920
And they're all having to be
regulated within certain

1270
01:23:02,080 --> 01:23:05,240
constraints, but not in a
terribly deterministic fashion.

1271
01:23:05,720 --> 01:23:08,080
It's it's a hunting process.
Hunting.

1272
01:23:08,080 --> 01:23:10,640
Again.
Got the idea of a musical

1273
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:14,800
sequence.
So I, I actually come now to

1274
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:19,400
think what I used in the music
of life all those years ago,

1275
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:25,720
nearly 20 years ago now, what I
use there as as just an

1276
01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:30,880
alternative metaphor to Selfish
Gene as as as it were, got more

1277
01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:33,760
mileage to it than I thought
initially.

1278
01:23:34,240 --> 01:23:39,160
Absolutely, Dennis.
And, and in fact, the, the, the

1279
01:23:39,160 --> 01:23:44,360
harmonisation, if you like, of
the Physiology with the

1280
01:23:44,360 --> 01:23:50,040
behaviour is, is significant in
the way in which organisms use

1281
01:23:50,040 --> 01:23:55,840
music to do that.
It's not, it is in itself

1282
01:23:55,840 --> 01:24:01,440
harmony because it's because
organisms harmonize and isn't a

1283
01:24:01,440 --> 01:24:06,320
curious thing.
Whales, for example, I mean, we

1284
01:24:06,320 --> 01:24:09,120
can think of other kinds of
organisms as well, but they sing

1285
01:24:09,120 --> 01:24:14,160
to each other across huge
distances within a pod.

1286
01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:18,240
I mean, a pod doesn't have to be
in close proximity to act as a

1287
01:24:18,240 --> 01:24:23,480
pod and they communicate with
each other by sound and they

1288
01:24:23,480 --> 01:24:25,560
will sing essentially to each
other.

1289
01:24:25,560 --> 01:24:28,320
They will they make, they
phrase, they create phrases and

1290
01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:30,800
it's creative process.
This is what music does.

1291
01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:35,840
Of course they create these
phrases and I'm not going to try

1292
01:24:35,840 --> 01:24:40,360
and mimic one in in the event,
but what is interesting is that

1293
01:24:40,360 --> 01:24:47,600
they reply to each other but
also add to the phraseology bit

1294
01:24:47,600 --> 01:24:53,680
like it happens when you get
extemporisation in music.

1295
01:24:54,400 --> 01:24:57,800
There's an enormous
extemporisation going on in

1296
01:24:57,800 --> 01:25:04,720
behaviour in organisms and that
that is significant in

1297
01:25:04,720 --> 01:25:09,240
maintaining the integrity
function of the group or the pod

1298
01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:13,640
or the family or the community
or whatever.

1299
01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:17,640
And I think resonance is a
lovely term for it.

1300
01:25:18,440 --> 01:25:22,360
And it's, it's almost creating
that kind of readiness, if you

1301
01:25:22,360 --> 01:25:25,520
like for the group to act as a
group.

1302
01:25:25,880 --> 01:25:28,760
So that for example, when you
get a hunting a pack of lions

1303
01:25:28,760 --> 01:25:37,720
hunting as a pack, it's it's
whatever is going on there is in

1304
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:41,320
harmony.
Each is anticipating the

1305
01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:47,360
behaviour of the other within
the pack, within the troop in

1306
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:51,720
their hunting behaviour.
There will be one that will go

1307
01:25:51,720 --> 01:25:55,200
for the jugular as it were,
another that will go to the

1308
01:25:55,200 --> 01:26:00,160
back, another which will hassle
at the legs, another that will

1309
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:03,560
hassle at some other vital organ
system and so on.

1310
01:26:03,560 --> 01:26:06,360
And it, and it's, it's
extraordinary looking at that

1311
01:26:06,360 --> 01:26:09,360
harmonious kind of structure
within it.

1312
01:26:09,360 --> 01:26:13,440
And it's a bit like, you know, a
major piece of a symphonic work.

1313
01:26:14,440 --> 01:26:17,360
It it's also the case when you
look at the opposite too, which

1314
01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:21,120
is looking at the way the herd
behaves to the presence of a

1315
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:24,160
trooper of lions.
There is an alertness, a

1316
01:26:24,160 --> 01:26:28,080
readiness, a kind of a
communication going on between

1317
01:26:28,720 --> 01:26:33,440
the members of the herd.
And the lions also are feeling

1318
01:26:33,440 --> 01:26:36,120
for which of them is not
actually functioning

1319
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:38,680
sufficiently well within that
harmony.

1320
01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:44,080
And they will go if they can,
for that stray, because they

1321
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:46,720
don't want to risk their lives
going up against a massive great

1322
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:52,440
big bull who could harm them.
And, and so first they'll prefer

1323
01:26:52,440 --> 01:26:55,520
to hunt as a pack if they can,
although they will hunt singly

1324
01:26:57,640 --> 01:27:03,840
and but equally the, the, the
herd know that there is a way to

1325
01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:08,920
defend themselves as a herd.
You, you, you know, birds create

1326
01:27:08,920 --> 01:27:12,600
the most extraordinary shapes
and patterns.

1327
01:27:13,360 --> 01:27:16,320
There's so much that we still
don't understand about what is

1328
01:27:16,320 --> 01:27:20,440
going Shoals of fish acting as a
Shoal of fish.

1329
01:27:21,480 --> 01:27:25,200
It's extraordinarily the case
that they are acting as one.

1330
01:27:27,040 --> 01:27:32,680
And we humans, I think do it as
well, sometimes to a

1331
01:27:32,680 --> 01:27:37,040
disadvantage in the sense that
it's, it's so easy for us to act

1332
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:40,960
as a pack.
In a sense, it's very alluring.

1333
01:27:42,200 --> 01:27:46,440
It relieves you of an individual
responsibility, of individual

1334
01:27:46,440 --> 01:27:50,400
fear and hate and so on.
And you act as a pack and as a

1335
01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:54,920
pack you can become
extraordinarily dangerous, one

1336
01:27:54,920 --> 01:27:57,920
to each other as well.
It seems to me, worries me

1337
01:27:57,920 --> 01:28:02,120
immensely.
I, I hate being part of herds,

1338
01:28:02,400 --> 01:28:05,720
if you like, I don't like that
herd instinct.

1339
01:28:05,920 --> 01:28:08,280
But is there something to be
learnt from it?

1340
01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:13,120
And I think it's also how, how
politics can influence our

1341
01:28:13,120 --> 01:28:17,600
behaviour in a way as well.
It we want to be part of a herd,

1342
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:21,600
we want to be accepted.
And so there's a psychology,

1343
01:28:21,760 --> 01:28:26,520
psychological element to the
music as well, Dennis, that is

1344
01:28:26,520 --> 01:28:28,640
not, not not always as
beautiful.

1345
01:28:30,480 --> 01:28:33,760
And I see that with the within
this niche of this podcast, when

1346
01:28:33,760 --> 01:28:36,040
you see the different thinkers,
the minds, and you can almost

1347
01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:39,560
tell when once they get into a
philosophical mindset or a

1348
01:28:39,560 --> 01:28:42,440
headspace regarding their theory
of consciousness, it's very

1349
01:28:42,440 --> 01:28:43,880
difficult for them to get out of
it.

1350
01:28:44,000 --> 01:28:47,920
That sort of herd mentality gets
you and and then you fight for

1351
01:28:47,920 --> 01:28:50,760
that value, that belief
throughout your entire career,

1352
01:28:50,760 --> 01:28:54,240
perhaps without looking back.
So it's very interesting to see

1353
01:28:54,240 --> 01:28:57,480
how this even plays a role
within academia because this is

1354
01:28:57,480 --> 01:29:01,000
a it's a big part of our lives.
It is indeed.

1355
01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:10,040
And it's, it's very difficult.
As an academic, you're, you

1356
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:16,080
know, we're trained to to be
critical, but we're fearful of

1357
01:29:16,080 --> 01:29:19,880
the criticism.
It's a very strange dynamic

1358
01:29:20,480 --> 01:29:22,200
there is.
So, I mean, people often say,

1359
01:29:22,200 --> 01:29:26,600
why are you saying this now?
And it's a damn good question.

1360
01:29:28,360 --> 01:29:31,240
And I think one of the reasons
is because we're free to do so,

1361
01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:35,560
that freedom doesn't exist for
many, many, many academics in

1362
01:29:35,560 --> 01:29:37,400
different parts of the world,
that freedom can be

1363
01:29:37,400 --> 01:29:41,520
extraordinarily restricted.
And as students coming through,

1364
01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:48,520
they will experience dogma and,
and they will experience also

1365
01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:56,720
scientists and academics having
to operate within those dogmas.

1366
01:29:57,320 --> 01:30:00,720
And that is extremely difficult.
We, we find very often that we

1367
01:30:00,720 --> 01:30:05,400
are, we can be profoundly
misunderstood and our position

1368
01:30:05,400 --> 01:30:12,960
can be misused, misapplied.
We worry about that quite a bit

1369
01:30:15,560 --> 01:30:18,080
because it's sort of reasons
that I've said, which is that

1370
01:30:18,120 --> 01:30:22,960
not all academics are in a
position of, of, of freedom.

1371
01:30:22,960 --> 01:30:25,840
If you like to, you know, to, to
critique.

1372
01:30:27,960 --> 01:30:30,240
But it is all what we are doing
really.

1373
01:30:30,240 --> 01:30:34,000
We don't, I don't think we ever
set out to create another dogma

1374
01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:37,600
really.
I mean, we suffered under dogma,

1375
01:30:39,680 --> 01:30:45,920
you know, as when genetics
gained hold as a primary causal,

1376
01:30:47,960 --> 01:30:51,400
it was inevitable that money
started being diverted to

1377
01:30:51,400 --> 01:30:54,920
looking for those causes and
looking for the golden bullet,

1378
01:30:54,920 --> 01:30:57,960
if you like, that was going to
help us understand disease in a

1379
01:30:57,960 --> 01:31:03,960
way that would produce
inconceivable solutions to the

1380
01:31:03,960 --> 01:31:10,320
problems of, of human health.
And, and, and, and it was at the

1381
01:31:10,320 --> 01:31:16,840
expense of systems work.
And because if you, if you do

1382
01:31:16,840 --> 01:31:21,760
believe that that genes are
primarily causal, then

1383
01:31:22,160 --> 01:31:25,320
inevitably politicians in
particular are going to look for

1384
01:31:25,320 --> 01:31:28,040
easy solutions and they're going
to look for that's where they're

1385
01:31:28,040 --> 01:31:30,080
going to be best investing their
money.

1386
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:37,000
And we're trying to get across
to, to people that what you need

1387
01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:44,280
to do in academic life is to
fund the thinkers to critique,

1388
01:31:45,640 --> 01:31:48,880
to ensure that you've always got
people at the edges that are

1389
01:31:48,880 --> 01:31:52,840
showing that variability, that,
that are challenging the, the,

1390
01:31:52,920 --> 01:31:57,040
the, the central dogma, if you
like that, that is, that is,

1391
01:31:57,040 --> 01:32:02,440
that is prevalent.
So we never set out to introduce

1392
01:32:02,440 --> 01:32:07,080
another dogma.
We don't have another dogma.

1393
01:32:07,400 --> 01:32:11,480
I mean, we have ideas that we
hold precious, which is the fact

1394
01:32:11,480 --> 01:32:14,360
that, I mean, you know, I don't
know whether you can call free

1395
01:32:14,360 --> 01:32:17,560
will a dogma.
Maybe you can, but I'd prefer

1396
01:32:17,560 --> 01:32:22,760
that dogma because without free
will you can't challenge dogma.

1397
01:32:23,040 --> 01:32:26,400
So I prefer the dogma of free
will to the dogma of

1398
01:32:26,400 --> 01:32:33,840
determinism.
And I can ask, I would ask those

1399
01:32:35,560 --> 01:32:38,760
determinists, if you like, who
don't believe in free one.

1400
01:32:38,760 --> 01:32:42,160
I think it's an illusion.
I'd ask this question.

1401
01:32:42,160 --> 01:32:48,760
Why are you telling me that?
You know, I mean, they're

1402
01:32:48,760 --> 01:32:54,440
telling me in order to influence
my behaviour or my thoughts,

1403
01:32:55,280 --> 01:32:58,080
they don't like the fact that I
really sincerely believe that

1404
01:32:58,080 --> 01:33:01,800
we're, we have a reasonably
large degree of free will.

1405
01:33:02,680 --> 01:33:05,400
I think we have to have,
otherwise we can't be adaptable

1406
01:33:05,400 --> 01:33:10,280
enough to survive as humans.
It, it reminds me, I posted AI

1407
01:33:10,280 --> 01:33:12,880
just posted a clip a few days
ago for an interview I had with

1408
01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:15,760
Noam Chomsky.
And I asked him about free will

1409
01:33:15,760 --> 01:33:19,520
and he said, everybody just like
when in one of your quotes says,

1410
01:33:19,640 --> 01:33:22,720
irrespective of what we believe,
everybody acts as if we have

1411
01:33:22,720 --> 01:33:25,960
freedom of the world.
So there's no point in denying

1412
01:33:25,960 --> 01:33:27,400
freedom of the world because of
that.

1413
01:33:27,440 --> 01:33:31,120
If if we're always going to act
in this way, most certainly it

1414
01:33:31,120 --> 01:33:32,520
doesn't really matter
philosophically.

1415
01:33:33,080 --> 01:33:35,240
No.
And we assume and, and we make

1416
01:33:35,240 --> 01:33:41,720
the assumption that we each have
free will and, and we do that.

1417
01:33:41,720 --> 01:33:45,080
Of course we do it because our
whole judicial system is based

1418
01:33:45,080 --> 01:33:47,720
on the fact that people have
freedom to act in different

1419
01:33:47,720 --> 01:33:50,160
kinds of ways.
And if you choose to act

1420
01:33:50,160 --> 01:33:53,520
malevolently, then you're
responsible for acting

1421
01:33:53,520 --> 01:33:56,040
malevolently.
Without free will, you wouldn't

1422
01:33:56,040 --> 01:33:59,160
be responsible for it.
I mean, you'd be a self driving

1423
01:33:59,160 --> 01:34:01,960
car.
And if you had an accident then

1424
01:34:01,960 --> 01:34:06,360
you'd have to find something
wrong with the machine rather

1425
01:34:06,360 --> 01:34:10,040
than the fact that you made a
judgement based on your wishes,

1426
01:34:10,040 --> 01:34:15,040
your hopes and fears and loves
and hates and you know, and you

1427
01:34:15,040 --> 01:34:18,200
killed that person because quite
frankly you didn't like them and

1428
01:34:18,200 --> 01:34:21,040
you got in your way and and so
on.

1429
01:34:21,040 --> 01:34:26,000
And yet we have strange kind of
devices called morals and ethics

1430
01:34:26,520 --> 01:34:28,840
in behaviour that we shouldn't
behave like that.

1431
01:34:29,480 --> 01:34:32,600
And so when we start imposing
them as much as possible on each

1432
01:34:32,600 --> 01:34:36,200
other, and we do that because we
know that people do have

1433
01:34:36,200 --> 01:34:40,000
choices.
So yes, I, I find, I mean, in

1434
01:34:40,000 --> 01:34:43,920
any case, even if we accepted it
as an illusion, it's fantastic

1435
01:34:43,920 --> 01:34:46,960
illusion.
I'd go go with it all the time.

1436
01:34:46,960 --> 01:34:49,720
I mean, I'd rather have that
illusion than not.

1437
01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:52,640
And, and what do they mean by an
illusion?

1438
01:34:52,640 --> 01:34:54,440
They mean that it doesn't really
exist.

1439
01:34:56,160 --> 01:34:58,160
But then I go back.
Why are you telling me this?

1440
01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:02,960
They're telling me it because
they know damn well actually

1441
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:07,800
that the illusion matters.
Is the illusion is free will.

1442
01:35:08,000 --> 01:35:10,240
I mean, if it's an illusion, it
exists.

1443
01:35:12,120 --> 01:35:15,560
I can I can acknowledge to them,
OK, You you can have it if you

1444
01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:16,880
like.
Call it an illusion.

1445
01:35:18,240 --> 01:35:20,680
You're only having to call it an
illusion because you you, you

1446
01:35:20,680 --> 01:35:24,520
can't understand how something
immaterial can influence

1447
01:35:24,520 --> 01:35:29,760
something that's material.
I find fascinating, I see, I see

1448
01:35:29,760 --> 01:35:33,000
two brothers and one perhaps
looking at a microscope looking

1449
01:35:33,000 --> 01:35:37,200
at neural cells, the other one
looking at maybe the SA node,

1450
01:35:37,200 --> 01:35:39,360
looking at all these action
potentials in different parts of

1451
01:35:39,360 --> 01:35:42,360
the body physiologically,
obviously all intertwined at

1452
01:35:42,360 --> 01:35:45,920
some .1, looking at EE GS1,
looking at EC GS.

1453
01:35:47,040 --> 01:35:50,560
And then some of you guys
managed to almost develop a like

1454
01:35:50,560 --> 01:35:53,400
a hive mind together and, and
it's very inseparable.

1455
01:35:53,400 --> 01:35:56,080
You can sort of see how one of
you can think of something and

1456
01:35:56,080 --> 01:35:57,520
the other finishes.
The other person said.

1457
01:35:57,520 --> 01:36:01,120
It's do you guys disagree
fundamentally on anything

1458
01:36:01,480 --> 01:36:06,520
regarding this field?
I don't think we do, because we

1459
01:36:06,520 --> 01:36:08,640
don't.
We never tried to establish a

1460
01:36:08,640 --> 01:36:12,840
dogma.
I think what we've done is over

1461
01:36:12,840 --> 01:36:18,080
a period of what is it now,
getting on for about 20 years of

1462
01:36:18,080 --> 01:36:23,880
interaction in a sort of fairly
rigorous way.

1463
01:36:23,880 --> 01:36:27,720
Publishing papers together,
after all, is pretty rigorous.

1464
01:36:28,400 --> 01:36:35,280
We've we've come to hone a lot
of our own rough edges in how we

1465
01:36:35,280 --> 01:36:39,200
interact.
But that tells me that you you

1466
01:36:39,200 --> 01:36:43,280
need academic communities that
can interact in this kind of

1467
01:36:43,280 --> 01:36:49,080
way, because that is the way in
which we get closer to an

1468
01:36:49,080 --> 01:36:55,120
analysis which we can defend
because a group of people can

1469
01:36:55,120 --> 01:36:59,920
think of many more reasons why 1
might be wrong about something

1470
01:37:00,360 --> 01:37:04,680
than a single person can.
I don't think it's possible to

1471
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:10,640
be a really good thinker
academically alone.

1472
01:37:12,600 --> 01:37:15,080
That's my explanation for what
has happened.

1473
01:37:15,560 --> 01:37:19,080
If people interact over a long
period of time, there is some

1474
01:37:19,080 --> 01:37:25,360
kind of honing away of the minor
differences that might have

1475
01:37:25,360 --> 01:37:28,320
existed.
And you see it in other

1476
01:37:28,320 --> 01:37:31,760
communities too.
Monastic communities do the

1477
01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:34,400
same.
They they, they well,

1478
01:37:34,560 --> 01:37:39,240
particularly some traditions,
like meditative traditions.

1479
01:37:39,560 --> 01:37:43,560
They're continually hacking away
at each other's so-called

1480
01:37:43,680 --> 01:37:49,320
misperceptions of the world.
They even have sutras to remind

1481
01:37:49,320 --> 01:37:51,320
them the fact.
You think you understand the

1482
01:37:51,320 --> 01:37:52,480
world.
No, you don't.

1483
01:37:52,640 --> 01:37:56,280
That's the Diamond Sutra.
You think you understand the

1484
01:37:56,920 --> 01:37:59,400
nature of the person, you know
you don't.

1485
01:37:59,400 --> 01:38:03,000
That's the Heart Sutra.
And so you can go on with the

1486
01:38:03,320 --> 01:38:06,400
the different ways in which it
has been expressed.

1487
01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:12,240
But there is a strong sense, I
think, to how long people

1488
01:38:12,240 --> 01:38:19,920
interact together to the process
by which you come to be able to

1489
01:38:19,920 --> 01:38:25,200
finish each other's sentences.
Because with, as it were danced

1490
01:38:26,440 --> 01:38:29,600
and created a harmonisation of
the way we think.

1491
01:38:30,680 --> 01:38:33,840
I think.
Maybe an illusion of another

1492
01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:35,920
kind.
It may be we should have a third

1493
01:38:35,920 --> 01:38:41,000
person doing this with a or 1/5
or 1/6 or a 20th, you know, But

1494
01:38:41,200 --> 01:38:44,920
but the group is met is group
think matters is what we're

1495
01:38:44,920 --> 01:38:49,120
really saying.
It is also the case that if one

1496
01:38:49,120 --> 01:38:53,600
or other of us comes up with an
idea at the boundary, as it

1497
01:38:53,600 --> 01:39:00,800
were, at the edge, and I mean,
one might think, gosh, you know,

1498
01:39:00,800 --> 01:39:03,320
should I really say that?
I mean, should I really go

1499
01:39:03,320 --> 01:39:06,200
there?
I mean, is it too, is it too

1500
01:39:06,200 --> 01:39:11,120
far?
We would bounce that off each

1501
01:39:11,120 --> 01:39:14,400
other in a sense.
I mean, you know, and, and build

1502
01:39:14,400 --> 01:39:17,920
on it rather than reject it, see
where it goes.

1503
01:39:18,560 --> 01:39:21,800
And if you do that often enough,
you begin to understand how the

1504
01:39:21,800 --> 01:39:27,440
other mind works.
It's also the case that we bring

1505
01:39:27,440 --> 01:39:30,280
to the table completely
different experiences.

1506
01:39:31,000 --> 01:39:34,040
That's right.
And I don't, I mean, many might,

1507
01:39:34,040 --> 01:39:36,960
many people might not know this,
might not understand that

1508
01:39:36,960 --> 01:39:40,600
because they might think, well,
we're the same family, but we

1509
01:39:40,600 --> 01:39:43,120
had completely different
trajectories in life.

1510
01:39:44,200 --> 01:39:48,320
And those trajectories mattered
in how what we brought to the

1511
01:39:48,320 --> 01:39:53,880
table.
I mean, I, I kind of had an

1512
01:39:53,880 --> 01:39:57,320
introduction to philosophy
before I had an introduction to

1513
01:39:57,320 --> 01:39:59,040
science.
I had no idea I'd be a

1514
01:39:59,040 --> 01:40:02,240
scientist.
And I, I mean, I left school

1515
01:40:02,240 --> 01:40:06,840
when I was 15.
I grew up in a one parent family

1516
01:40:06,840 --> 01:40:11,000
on a council estate and I left
school at 15.

1517
01:40:12,000 --> 01:40:18,440
And my school headmaster said of
me in my penultimate School

1518
01:40:18,440 --> 01:40:23,200
Report.
That he could see no reason I'm

1519
01:40:23,200 --> 01:40:27,040
quoting now, no reason why
public money should be wasted on

1520
01:40:27,040 --> 01:40:29,120
the attempted education of this
boy that's.

1521
01:40:30,360 --> 01:40:34,280
Harsh.
So you see, I left school.

1522
01:40:34,680 --> 01:40:36,400
Well, I couldn't see any reason
either.

1523
01:40:36,400 --> 01:40:40,800
And I I didn't didn't want to
stay there because they couldn't

1524
01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:44,000
see in me the potential.
Actually, to be fair, I mean,

1525
01:40:44,240 --> 01:40:47,440
there are one or two of them, my
teachers who could.

1526
01:40:48,840 --> 01:40:52,000
And so I left school and I left
school very young.

1527
01:40:54,000 --> 01:40:57,480
I did not know then that I would
become an academic.

1528
01:40:58,480 --> 01:41:01,080
I didn't know, certainly didn't
know I would become a scientist

1529
01:41:01,080 --> 01:41:05,080
of any kind.
My first interests were in

1530
01:41:05,080 --> 01:41:06,840
politics, philosophy and
economics.

1531
01:41:06,840 --> 01:41:09,960
When I say my first interests,
because that's not quite true, I

1532
01:41:10,040 --> 01:41:13,440
mean, you know, as they
developed my, my instinct was to

1533
01:41:13,640 --> 01:41:15,560
tend towards philosophy
actually.

1534
01:41:17,160 --> 01:41:20,120
And at one time I thought I
might study if I could get into

1535
01:41:20,120 --> 01:41:21,600
university.
In those days, it was back in

1536
01:41:21,600 --> 01:41:25,640
the 1960s and early 70s and it
was extremely difficult to get

1537
01:41:25,640 --> 01:41:28,360
into university if you'd left
school in the circumstances I

1538
01:41:28,360 --> 01:41:31,000
left in, very few people in the
United Kingdom went to

1539
01:41:31,000 --> 01:41:36,840
university.
About 6%, very tiny percentage

1540
01:41:36,840 --> 01:41:39,360
of, of those that had
qualifications went to

1541
01:41:39,360 --> 01:41:42,880
university.
I mean, we hadn't experienced

1542
01:41:42,880 --> 01:41:45,600
then the sort of massive
expansion in higher education,

1543
01:41:46,080 --> 01:41:48,320
which is wonderful.
Incidentally, I, I'd, you know,

1544
01:41:49,240 --> 01:41:51,480
that, that the more we have
higher education, the better it

1545
01:41:51,480 --> 01:41:53,760
seems to me, as long as it's
doing the right thing, which is

1546
01:41:53,760 --> 01:41:57,560
creating people who think, and I
don't willing to think outside

1547
01:41:57,560 --> 01:42:00,480
the box and protect them because
that's one of the other crucial

1548
01:42:00,480 --> 01:42:05,480
things about universities.
So I was outside the box, really

1549
01:42:05,480 --> 01:42:07,960
physically outside the box for a
long period of time.

1550
01:42:08,600 --> 01:42:15,760
And 11, for some reason, I'd,
I'd read, I started reading Karl

1551
01:42:15,760 --> 01:42:18,880
Popper, for example, which in a
sense was one of my early

1552
01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:23,440
introductions to science,
because I, I was fascinated by

1553
01:42:23,440 --> 01:42:27,400
his approach to scientific
thinking and methodology and

1554
01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:29,480
conjectures and refutations and
so on.

1555
01:42:30,360 --> 01:42:36,280
And how did we unravel problems?
But I was also fascinated by his

1556
01:42:36,280 --> 01:42:39,600
concepts of open Society, of
open systems.

1557
01:42:40,280 --> 01:42:43,760
I didn't know then,
incidentally, that what he was

1558
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:46,640
going on to say was very similar
to the kinds of things that we

1559
01:42:46,640 --> 01:42:48,640
were saying.
I had no idea then.

1560
01:42:48,760 --> 01:42:50,800
I don't think he even he had any
idea then.

1561
01:42:51,440 --> 01:42:54,280
When I first, it was back in the
1960s, you see, late 60s.

1562
01:42:54,800 --> 01:42:57,960
And I started reading that.
So I came, I came at this in a

1563
01:42:57,960 --> 01:43:02,600
sense, primed with an interest
in philosophy rather than with

1564
01:43:02,720 --> 01:43:04,600
science.
When I eventually went to

1565
01:43:04,600 --> 01:43:10,920
university in the 1970s, I went
to study zoology, and the reason

1566
01:43:10,960 --> 01:43:14,160
for that was because I got so
fascinated and wanted to

1567
01:43:14,160 --> 01:43:16,200
understand how living systems
worked.

1568
01:43:16,960 --> 01:43:21,280
But I came to it, you see,
because I felt the need to do

1569
01:43:21,280 --> 01:43:23,520
that.
I needed to understand it.

1570
01:43:25,040 --> 01:43:28,440
It wasn't so much that I had
necessarily a love of zoology or

1571
01:43:28,440 --> 01:43:32,360
whatever, It's just I had AI
wanted to understand how this

1572
01:43:32,360 --> 01:43:38,800
system worked and when I did so
when I started studying zoology

1573
01:43:39,360 --> 01:43:42,720
at Manchester University, this
was at the very moment when

1574
01:43:42,720 --> 01:43:46,160
things were beginning to pivot
towards a more gene centric

1575
01:43:46,160 --> 01:43:48,720
view.
And I saw more behaviour being

1576
01:43:48,720 --> 01:43:52,320
explained by maintaining genes
and gene pools and so on.

1577
01:43:52,600 --> 01:43:55,160
I actually, even as a student,
repeated some of Richard

1578
01:43:55,160 --> 01:44:00,400
Dawson's experiments that he did
when he was doing his PhD and

1579
01:44:00,400 --> 01:44:03,480
then not long after he actually
had done them and, and so on.

1580
01:44:04,280 --> 01:44:09,320
And looking at bird behaviour
and, and things and hacking

1581
01:44:09,320 --> 01:44:11,920
regimes and things and
interpreting everything in terms

1582
01:44:11,920 --> 01:44:14,680
of Peck, Peck, Peck, changing
angle, Peck, Peck, Peck, all

1583
01:44:14,680 --> 01:44:20,720
very algorithm driven, you see.
And I just dissatisfied me

1584
01:44:20,720 --> 01:44:23,200
inherently because one of the
reasons I'd gone in to study

1585
01:44:23,440 --> 01:44:25,960
living systems is because I
wanted to really understand

1586
01:44:25,960 --> 01:44:28,960
reason.
Why did they behave like that?

1587
01:44:28,960 --> 01:44:31,600
Why did they make that decision?
How do they make decisions?

1588
01:44:33,040 --> 01:44:35,800
And you know, because I'd come
at it from a completely

1589
01:44:35,800 --> 01:44:38,760
different angle, if you like.
So what I'm saying is in a very

1590
01:44:38,760 --> 01:44:42,760
short trying to shorten what I'm
saying, we didn't come to each

1591
01:44:42,760 --> 01:44:46,560
other in by sitting around a
family table.

1592
01:44:47,880 --> 01:44:50,640
I mean, in the end, we.
Did as it were, but we didn't in

1593
01:44:50,640 --> 01:44:53,360
that it wasn't a natural sort of
thing that you know.

1594
01:44:56,320 --> 01:44:59,960
And curiously, while you were
encountering the gene centric

1595
01:44:59,960 --> 01:45:04,080
explanations in Manchester
University, I was examining Rich

1596
01:45:04,080 --> 01:45:10,920
Dawkins thesis.
Yes, it's strange and weaving

1597
01:45:12,000 --> 01:45:15,760
one thing after another.
It's it's Dennis at that.

1598
01:45:15,760 --> 01:45:17,680
What was yours like?
What did you bring to the table

1599
01:45:17,680 --> 01:45:19,800
and at what point did you guys
sort of come together and

1600
01:45:19,800 --> 01:45:21,280
coalesce in such a beautiful
way?

1601
01:45:22,720 --> 01:45:28,040
It is the last decade or two
that has really seen the Coming

1602
01:45:28,040 --> 01:45:34,760
Together flourish, but there
have been other things that

1603
01:45:34,760 --> 01:45:39,040
encouraged it.
We we both like music, we both

1604
01:45:39,800 --> 01:45:47,040
both even sing and play guitars
and we both have acquired also

1605
01:45:47,040 --> 01:45:52,640
through creating a music group
together, an interest there too.

1606
01:45:53,200 --> 01:46:01,040
And so we it's, it's a complex
padded as it were, it's a dance

1607
01:46:01,920 --> 01:46:07,480
and it's had many aspects which
have come together the more it's

1608
01:46:07,480 --> 01:46:09,600
gone on.
I think that's the best way I

1609
01:46:09,600 --> 01:46:12,800
can describe it.
But as Ray said earlier on, our

1610
01:46:13,120 --> 01:46:16,200
initial trajectories were miles
apart.

1611
01:46:16,200 --> 01:46:21,000
There's no no foreseeing what
was going to happen.

1612
01:46:22,760 --> 01:46:25,840
There were one or two events
that one might look back on.

1613
01:46:26,080 --> 01:46:32,360
I mean, one was a, a, a debate
that just shortly after Selfish

1614
01:46:32,360 --> 01:46:35,840
Gene was published at Bailey or
college.

1615
01:46:36,120 --> 01:46:38,320
And I, I came way down from
Edinburgh.

1616
01:46:38,320 --> 01:46:41,200
I, by that time I was now
starting to do my PhD in

1617
01:46:41,360 --> 01:46:43,960
Edinburgh and I, I came all the
way down from Edinburgh to

1618
01:46:43,960 --> 01:46:48,640
Oxford to this debate.
And I think it was Anthony Kenny

1619
01:46:48,640 --> 01:46:50,960
was Dennis.
I think it was part of that

1620
01:46:51,600 --> 01:46:54,920
chair.
With the two philosophers and

1621
01:46:55,080 --> 01:46:57,200
Anthony Kenny was absolutely
brilliant.

1622
01:46:57,200 --> 01:47:01,160
He asked Richard after he
presented his case for the

1623
01:47:01,160 --> 01:47:06,440
selfish gene and his his theory.
He said, look, I I want to know

1624
01:47:06,440 --> 01:47:09,960
the following.
If all I knew of the English

1625
01:47:09,960 --> 01:47:15,760
language was its alphabet, I
would not be entitled and would

1626
01:47:15,760 --> 01:47:18,840
not be able to understand
Shakespeare.

1627
01:47:19,640 --> 01:47:22,240
Now I was listening very
carefully was I was chairing

1628
01:47:22,240 --> 01:47:26,280
this meeting.
But Richard then said, well, I'm

1629
01:47:26,280 --> 01:47:28,320
not a philosopher, I'm just a
scientist.

1630
01:47:28,320 --> 01:47:33,880
I'm only interested in truth.
And that lost him from my point.

1631
01:47:35,000 --> 01:47:38,560
That was the break point.
I don't think he knows that.

1632
01:47:39,080 --> 01:47:46,360
But I broke with him there
because what Tony as a

1633
01:47:46,360 --> 01:47:51,680
philosopher was getting at is
that if all you know is the

1634
01:47:52,640 --> 01:47:55,960
sequence, you cannot know it's
meaning.

1635
01:47:57,880 --> 01:48:02,560
I I happen to have almost fluent
reading of Handel's script,

1636
01:48:02,560 --> 01:48:06,400
which is Korean script, but I
don't have a command of Korean

1637
01:48:06,400 --> 01:48:11,240
language and I would never be
able to understand a play or a

1638
01:48:11,240 --> 01:48:15,160
poem in Korean without a
considerable amount of

1639
01:48:15,160 --> 01:48:17,640
explanation.
And that illustrates the point.

1640
01:48:18,280 --> 01:48:21,640
And he missed the point.
He didn't even see what Tony was

1641
01:48:21,640 --> 01:48:23,120
getting at.
And I.

1642
01:48:23,120 --> 01:48:26,520
Did and, and, and you know that
I did that.

1643
01:48:26,520 --> 01:48:30,960
That was so influential on my
own thinking about all this.

1644
01:48:32,120 --> 01:48:35,680
I it, it just resonates in my
mind just listening to Anthony.

1645
01:48:35,680 --> 01:48:39,160
Can he make that point?
And then the surprise and shock

1646
01:48:39,200 --> 01:48:44,840
at Richard's replies to it.
I then later experienced a

1647
01:48:44,840 --> 01:48:47,200
similar kind of dismissal of
philosophy.

1648
01:48:47,840 --> 01:48:51,400
To me, that was an example of
how philosophical thinking can

1649
01:48:51,400 --> 01:48:55,920
be so helpful in unravelling a
problem.

1650
01:48:57,000 --> 01:49:02,200
And because there's a facility
of saying that something is like

1651
01:49:02,200 --> 01:49:07,880
something and then saying, but
wouldn't you say this about that

1652
01:49:07,880 --> 01:49:10,680
as it were?
And it's that preciseness that I

1653
01:49:10,680 --> 01:49:13,160
was, it was, I found it very
impressive.

1654
01:49:13,560 --> 01:49:16,440
And and I thought it just so
fundamentally destroyed the

1655
01:49:16,440 --> 01:49:19,320
notion of of the gene centric
view.

1656
01:49:20,120 --> 01:49:22,800
And so it was very influential
that there's a curiously if you,

1657
01:49:22,800 --> 01:49:24,960
if you like, you probably
discovered something very

1658
01:49:24,960 --> 01:49:29,360
interesting here, which is that
I think that that meeting at

1659
01:49:29,600 --> 01:49:33,240
Baylia was significant and was
probably the firm of what

1660
01:49:33,240 --> 01:49:36,720
subsequently came to be our our
sort of collaboratively.

1661
01:49:37,800 --> 01:49:39,160
Right.
That's a good point.

1662
01:49:39,160 --> 01:49:41,560
And it's come out of this
particular discussion.

1663
01:49:41,960 --> 01:49:45,680
Yeah, exactly.
So it's served a very useful

1664
01:49:45,680 --> 01:49:48,760
purpose for us too.
But I'm, I have to say I'm

1665
01:49:48,760 --> 01:49:52,600
beginning to watch the clock
because I was lecturing all day

1666
01:49:52,600 --> 01:49:57,320
today and I've been going since
about 5:00 this morning.

1667
01:50:00,080 --> 01:50:03,840
There are there are even limits
to what philosophers and

1668
01:50:03,840 --> 01:50:08,000
scientists can do.
So we're in your hands, Tevin.

1669
01:50:08,640 --> 01:50:10,480
When?
How are you going to wrap this

1670
01:50:10,480 --> 01:50:12,920
up?
I was just enjoying listening to

1671
01:50:12,920 --> 01:50:14,320
you guys reminisce.
It is beautiful.

1672
01:50:15,000 --> 01:50:16,920
Sorry guys, I got caught up in
the motion there as well.

1673
01:50:17,960 --> 01:50:20,720
OK, let's let's let's wrap this
up a little guys.

1674
01:50:20,880 --> 01:50:24,880
The one thing I wanted to ask
just before we close is I was

1675
01:50:24,880 --> 01:50:27,200
speaking to Professor Terence
Deacon and Michael Levin

1676
01:50:27,200 --> 01:50:31,160
recently about teleo dynamics
and teleophobia within science

1677
01:50:31,160 --> 01:50:33,160
and philosophy.
I love philosophers.

1678
01:50:33,880 --> 01:50:36,000
I hate talking about this.
I hate it.

1679
01:50:36,240 --> 01:50:37,640
Absolutely hate it.
Yes.

1680
01:50:38,080 --> 01:50:42,480
The purpose, meaning of this
universe of life and our final

1681
01:50:42,480 --> 01:50:44,880
thoughts from your side, Dennis.
And then Ray, you can end as

1682
01:50:44,880 --> 01:50:48,200
well.
Just briefly, the break occurred

1683
01:50:48,200 --> 01:50:51,920
between Wallace and Darwin way
back in 1866.

1684
01:50:53,040 --> 01:50:58,640
Darwin was utterly shocked when
Wallace decided he would go on a

1685
01:50:58,640 --> 01:51:01,600
different route completely from
Charles Darwin.

1686
01:51:01,760 --> 01:51:06,120
Charles Darwin was working on
his idea that the Peacock was

1687
01:51:06,120 --> 01:51:11,160
really trying to impress the PN
and that was an intentional,

1688
01:51:11,160 --> 01:51:15,040
conscious choice.
It's in the 1871 book.

1689
01:51:15,040 --> 01:51:17,240
I quoted almost verbatim from
it.

1690
01:51:17,760 --> 01:51:22,280
Wallace went off in the opposite
direction and said no, Charles,

1691
01:51:23,680 --> 01:51:26,920
natural selection explains
everything, full stop.

1692
01:51:27,560 --> 01:51:29,840
That's the break.
That's where purpose was

1693
01:51:29,840 --> 01:51:35,200
eliminated.
And I have one statement to add

1694
01:51:35,200 --> 01:51:39,000
to that, which is I don't think
you can fully understand life by

1695
01:51:39,000 --> 01:51:48,560
excluding reason.
And I think that that is such an

1696
01:51:48,560 --> 01:51:53,600
important ingredient.
We tend to dismiss I, I remember

1697
01:51:53,600 --> 01:51:55,800
a discussion.
I, I, I, I won't remember, I

1698
01:51:55,800 --> 01:52:02,960
won't say names, with a
colleague who was shocked by my

1699
01:52:02,960 --> 01:52:08,600
interest in philosophy and by my
interest in the significance of

1700
01:52:08,600 --> 01:52:17,040
psychology.
We create our niche as well as

1701
01:52:17,040 --> 01:52:20,800
adapt to it.
All organisms do that and each

1702
01:52:20,800 --> 01:52:24,120
creation is a fundamental in the
way life works.

1703
01:52:25,720 --> 01:52:30,240
A major part of that is the
psychological aspect.

1704
01:52:30,760 --> 01:52:33,560
We've referred to some of it in
terms of the way things work in

1705
01:52:33,560 --> 01:52:36,320
synchrony, the way things work
in harmony and so on.

1706
01:52:38,040 --> 01:52:41,480
That is, it is so significant to
our well-being, to our health

1707
01:52:41,480 --> 01:52:44,680
and well-being and understanding
how things can go wrong with the

1708
01:52:44,680 --> 01:52:49,320
system, with health
consequences, that if we

1709
01:52:49,320 --> 01:52:56,800
eliminate reason, it leaves a
void of understanding for humans

1710
01:52:56,800 --> 01:52:59,400
to cope with what it is that
having to cope with, which is

1711
01:52:59,400 --> 01:53:04,880
this extraordinarily difficult
psychosocial environment that we

1712
01:53:04,880 --> 01:53:07,760
have to be adapted to and
adaptable within.

1713
01:53:08,640 --> 01:53:12,360
And that is increasingly
difficult because it changes so

1714
01:53:12,360 --> 01:53:16,360
rapidly that it we find it
harder and harder to find the

1715
01:53:16,360 --> 01:53:20,520
normative within which we're
going to work ethically.

1716
01:53:20,520 --> 01:53:27,600
This is extremely difficult for
us because as we gain more

1717
01:53:27,840 --> 01:53:33,600
reason, more understanding, if
you like, the more we challenge

1718
01:53:33,600 --> 01:53:39,760
those very things that constrain
our behaviour, constrain us in

1719
01:53:39,760 --> 01:53:43,760
the, in a, in a, in a, in, at
that psychosocial level and

1720
01:53:43,760 --> 01:53:46,920
provide grounding, if you like,
things that we don't have to

1721
01:53:46,920 --> 01:53:50,280
question or, you know, accept as
given.

1722
01:53:50,880 --> 01:53:52,880
And those things that are
accepted as given are getting,

1723
01:53:52,880 --> 01:53:56,440
are now becoming smaller and
smaller and smaller, which makes

1724
01:53:56,440 --> 01:54:00,120
it very hard, I think, for
people to be so easily grounded

1725
01:54:01,600 --> 01:54:04,600
and, and that creates a
psychological problem.

1726
01:54:04,720 --> 01:54:08,200
So it's, it's no surprise to me
that so many people experience,

1727
01:54:08,200 --> 01:54:12,800
certainly in the Western world,
so many people experience some

1728
01:54:12,800 --> 01:54:18,520
kind of mental problem in life
at some point have some kind of

1729
01:54:18,520 --> 01:54:21,280
breakdown, even whether they
don't realise it.

1730
01:54:21,360 --> 01:54:25,480
I mean, I think many people go
through mental health issues

1731
01:54:25,480 --> 01:54:28,280
without realising that that's
been a major problem to them.

1732
01:54:29,480 --> 01:54:34,360
Having stable relationships
becomes harder and harder and

1733
01:54:34,360 --> 01:54:39,320
and working with others becomes
difficult too.

1734
01:54:40,160 --> 01:54:45,320
And so, so it, it matters,
reason matters.

1735
01:54:46,280 --> 01:54:50,320
The psychology that that level,
if you like, the psychosocial

1736
01:54:50,320 --> 01:54:56,560
level of causation is so
significant, particularly in an

1737
01:54:56,560 --> 01:55:00,040
Organism like ours that uses it
linguistically.

1738
01:55:00,040 --> 01:55:03,600
We use it to express ourselves,
to understand ourselves, that

1739
01:55:04,000 --> 01:55:11,760
our our our dependence on
cultural transmission of

1740
01:55:11,760 --> 01:55:15,280
information is as strong as our
dependence on anything that

1741
01:55:15,280 --> 01:55:21,440
might be regarded as genetic.
Who we are, our identity

1742
01:55:21,440 --> 01:55:26,240
matters.
And so sometimes that is

1743
01:55:26,240 --> 01:55:31,720
challenged.
It can breed hate or it can

1744
01:55:31,720 --> 01:55:34,880
breed love.
It can breed all sorts of create

1745
01:55:34,880 --> 01:55:38,680
all sorts of problems.
And so maintaining integrity

1746
01:55:38,680 --> 01:55:42,840
within that psychosocial, I kind
of call it space, but you know,

1747
01:55:42,840 --> 01:55:45,960
really I'm not wanting to create
a kind of dichotomy like that.

1748
01:55:46,360 --> 01:55:50,000
But this psychosocial space, it
can be extraordinarily

1749
01:55:50,000 --> 01:55:53,800
difficult.
And it's a challenge I think to

1750
01:55:53,800 --> 01:55:58,200
humanity.
And at the political level, it's

1751
01:55:58,200 --> 01:56:02,800
a challenge because I think that
we we are getting to the point

1752
01:56:02,800 --> 01:56:09,160
where even even in what we say
to each other, we can challenge

1753
01:56:09,160 --> 01:56:14,320
the foundations of it in terms
of reality in a way that perhaps

1754
01:56:14,320 --> 01:56:15,920
we wouldn't have done in the
past.

1755
01:56:17,840 --> 01:56:21,160
So what is truth becomes a
fundamental question.

1756
01:56:23,200 --> 01:56:28,200
And that's I, I think perhaps a
nice point to end it is a

1757
01:56:28,280 --> 01:56:31,520
philosophical question, but
curiously, it's a fundamental, I

1758
01:56:31,520 --> 01:56:34,200
mean, what is truth on social
media, for heaven's sake?

1759
01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:37,760
Yeah, it's the relativistic view
of it all.

1760
01:56:37,760 --> 01:56:40,680
And this, the way people are
approaching this becomes very,

1761
01:56:40,680 --> 01:56:42,320
very fishy territory at this
point.

1762
01:56:43,320 --> 01:56:45,520
But, but gentlemen, this has
been such a pleasure for me.

1763
01:56:45,520 --> 01:56:47,240
Thank you so much.
It's an honor and privilege to

1764
01:56:47,240 --> 01:56:49,720
chat to both of you.
Big fan of both of your works

1765
01:56:49,720 --> 01:56:53,000
for many years.
And I hope that in the future we

1766
01:56:53,000 --> 01:56:56,520
can discuss and dissect certain
papers and books in detail and,

1767
01:56:56,920 --> 01:57:00,080
and, and like focus and hone
into specific topics.

1768
01:57:00,080 --> 01:57:02,440
And it's been such a pleasure.
Thank you so much for joining

1769
01:57:02,440 --> 01:57:05,160
me.
Been a terrific host, Tevin.

1770
01:57:05,880 --> 01:57:08,120
Thank you very much, Dennis.
Well, you've made that.

1771
01:57:08,120 --> 01:57:10,800
You've made us think of some
things that we probably hadn't

1772
01:57:10,800 --> 01:57:13,000
focused.
On yes, yes.

1773
01:57:13,800 --> 01:57:16,040
Mark, thank you, gentlemen.
I really appreciate.

1774
01:57:16,040 --> 01:57:16,160
It.