David Wolpert: What Can We Really Know About That Which We Cannot Even Imagine? No Free Lunch

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David, I'd like to ask you how
does how do humans construct

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math and how does math construct
universes?

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OK, the second one's easier than
the first one.

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How do humans construct math?
Nobody knows it's a It is known

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that the stochastic process,
that if you look at things just

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historically or the psychology
literature, you'll see that

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there it's actually almost like
a random search and people start

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going down certain directions,
they find it doesn't work, they

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back it up.
So depending on the level of

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granularity you want to get
into, there's something going on

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down the level of neurons and
neurobiology of course.

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But in terms of the
phenomenology, sometimes there

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are mistakes made.
Very often there are oversights,

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like for several thousand years
people were trying to prove

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Euclid's parallel lines
conjecture from the other axioms

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of.
Euclidean geometry until finally

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somebody got brave enough to
say, well what if it actually

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doesn't follow from the others,
and out of that ensued all of

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non Euclidean geometry,
differential geometry, the basis

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of general relativity and so on
and so forth.

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Similarly, at the end of the
beginning of the 20th century,

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David Hilbert famously or
infamously said.

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We must know, We will know
concerning how to put together

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an automated algorithm that
would be able to deduce all of

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the correct theorems in
mathematics and none of the

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incorrect ones, and then girdle
and Turing and show on prove

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that no, you're wrong.
So the overall process of humans

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constructing mathematics is a
little bit of a guided.

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Random search and that's really
about as far as we know at the

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level of the actual
neurobiology, what's going on

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inside of the human, the OR the
associated psychology, the

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effects of it, the phenomenology
going the other way.

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That one, from a certain
perspective, is far cleaner to

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understand, but.
Very, very few.

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Few humans are willing to accept
it.

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So basically, this is of course
my.

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I'm going to couch this in an
extreme version which reflects

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my perception of things.
First thing to understand is

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that all of consciousness is
basically a fiction.

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It's a.
Post hoc story we make up after

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the fact to give us the illusion
that we're in control because

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we're such control freaks.
There's many neurobiology

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experiments demonstrating that
people think that they know why

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they made a decision as
demonstrably not true.

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They're these fascinating
experiments with people who had

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the corpus callosum severed.
So that they've actually got two

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brains, two separate minds, not
talking to one another directly

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inside of their head.
And you can arrange it so that

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each hemisphere can be asked
questions.

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Why?
So you can arrange it so that

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one hemisphere is in control of
doing something like drawing or

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something like that, and the
other hemisphere can be asked,

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well, why are you doing that?
It cannot.

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No, it's physically impossible.
But that other hemisphere is

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completely convinced, just as we
are convinced as humans if our

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quote complete brains.
But it actually understands

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what's going on, the
motivations, the rationales, the

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reasons it's a post hoc fable
made-up after the fact to give

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us the illusion we're in
control.

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So adopting that perspective, a
lot of what seemed to be such

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very deep questions in
philosophy.

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Having to do with philosophy of
science, of the difference

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between physical reality and the
models we came up with, all of

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the battles of starting back in
contact, at least with logical

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positivism, synthetic versus
analytic, blah blah blah.

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And all of that is driven,
ultimately in a certain sense,

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by humans believing themselves,
and it's can all be explained.

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As simply what is the result of
mathematics?

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If you adopt the we, you cannot
almost by definition have any

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experiment which will refute the
hypothesis that all of physics,

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all of physical reality, is just
mathematical laws, and all of

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the experiments we can do are
just.

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Calculating what the results of
problem set examples are for

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those mathematical laws.
In particular, all of our

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neurobiology is such, all of our
sense of minds is such.

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And that's where the notion that
all of consciousness is a

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fiction plays a key role,
because it just eviscerates the

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notion that there's anything
there more than neurobiology,

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that there's anything there that
not as reducible, just reducible

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to physics.
And the physics itself is just

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math.
You don't need anything else.

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Max Tegmark has some good work
in Annals of Physics, and so on,

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some of his more formal analysis
of what some people call

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multiverse.
Any mathematical system is just

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as legitimate as any other, just
as real as any other.

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The pawns on a chess board think
the rules of chess are.

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Physical and are real in the
exact same sense that I, right

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now hitting my fists together,
think that the laws of Newtonian

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physics are real.
There's no way that you can

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actually design an experiment
that can say anything more than

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you are part of that particular
mathematical system.

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There's no sense in which one is
more real than the other.

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Reality itself is ultimately A
vacuous concept.

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It is just a mathematical
system.

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And that's all it is.
That is when I first learned

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quantum mechanics, way back when
people like to say, oh, it's

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deep philosophical implications
have to do with things like wave

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particle duality and this, that
and the other.

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Actually, no.
What I understand the deep

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importance of quantum physics to
be after all the courses I took

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on it and so on, is rather the
following.

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To be able to actually fully
accurately predict what the

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results of a physical experiment
will be, it is crucial that you

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actually build into your model
all of the details of the

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observational apparatus.
This was the big insight of a

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fellow called Everett, who some
people have said he was the

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originator what's now called the
many worlds interpretation of

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quantum mechanics.
Which really is what lies

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underneath all of quantum
computing, by the way, that it's

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only possible to actually fully,
accurately deploy the

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Schrodinger's equation, the
mathematics of quantum

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mechanics, when everything is
accounted for.

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And by the way, once everything
is accounted for, there's

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nothing left over.
There is no room.

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There is no need for some kind
of a physical reality that is

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out there that our mathematics
is just describing where it is

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in some sense, that there's this
concrete thing that is in some

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sense of a different kind than
our mathematics.

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Yes, our mathematics and our
sciences right now is just an

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approximation.
It is not what?

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Whatever the underlying
mathematics is, we're just

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fumbling around in the dark.
That gets back to the beginning

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part of the question you asked
my response about How is it that

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humans create math?
It's also how humans create

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sciences.
The same thing, but there is no

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reason to believe that it is
anything more than trying to

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approximate 1 mathematical
system with another.

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And the crucial thing is.
It's impossible to conceive of

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any way of actually conclusively
ascertaining that there is

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anything to physical reality
other than in mathematical

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system which has as part of it
us.

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So that was a huge bladder of a
monologue going all over the

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map.
I hope it.

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I mean it, it's fine, it's
informative and I think you you

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mentioned those approximations.
So we're obviously using

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specific or actually I think it
would be a better idea for us.

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Let's briefly touch on how what
type of mathematical systems you

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mentioned stochastic
mathematical systems.

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Let's touch on what that is and
then how we as inference

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devices, as you like to call it.
How are these concepts linked

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and at what point does that
affect our perception of

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reality?
OK, so several different things

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there.
First, yeah.

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And when you refer to stochastic
mathematical systems, that's

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work that I've been involved
with with a philosopher, David

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Kinney, which in a certain OK,
so there are right now things

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like what are called theorem
provers, proof assistants, which

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are going to be very, very good.
One of the currently the ones

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that's most popular, most
powerful people can Google it.

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It's it's lean LEAN.
An earlier one had the

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unfortunate pronunciation of
cock COCOQ.

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It.
It's a come from the French and

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people have actually now gotten
to where they actually have been

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using these to prove some
theorems.

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The reason I mentioned that is
you can actually use these to.

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Look at the entire networks of
implications underlying

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important theorems in
mathematics, like Godel's and

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completeness theorem, the
Pythagorean theorem, and so on.

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That network of implications of
these ones are combined to give

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that one, which is combined to
give the next one, and so on.

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They can be modelled more or
less effectively.

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As a stochastic process where
you are doing a branching

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network growth kind of a system.
SO1 aspect of things is that

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that is a model of a stochastic
mathematical system that is the

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one that describes human
behaviour, human mathematician

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behaviour or might the it's all
very very early days, that kind

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of work.
Now this work that I did with

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David Kinney.
In a certain sense, it can be

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motivated by the following.
As I mentioned before, every

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time in history when a
foundational supposition of

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mathematics was weakened, great
riches ensued when people gave

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up on the notion that the
Euclidean that the parallelite

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hypothesis had to be true
allowed it to be false.

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Cornucopias were just the the
pinata was just smashed open.

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Similarly, when people realize
that things like the continuum

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hypothesis that there is an
Infinity that lies between now

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the integers and the reels, you
could take it or leave it.

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Great riches ensued.
The axiom of choice, a similar

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thing.
I mentioned David Hilbert when

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that rigid conviction was
relaxed, which is like.

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I was forced upon mathematicians
essentially by Girdle and Turing

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and and many others.
Great riches ensued.

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We now have these really deep
stuff that provides these

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limitations on mathematics
itself.

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In some senses.
I think these are by far the

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deepest philosophical results
that all of humanity has ever

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been able to generate.
Is one's having to do with the

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foundations of mathematics and
computation?

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So we, David Kinney and I said,
well, given that the way that

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real mathematicians work is by
the somewhat stochastic random

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process, why don't we sort of
see what might come out of it if

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we similarly weaken one of the
foundational convictions of all

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of mathematics?
Which is that mathematical

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implication is deterministic.
It is rigid.

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It is true.
It is probability one or zero.

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That is what we would want to be
the case.

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But if you look at how
mathematicians actually work,

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it's not the case.
Among other things, you can

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never be sure that any
implication is 100% true.

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People have found non trivial
flaws in proofs well after they

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were first suggested.
So there's always a finite

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probability that what we think
is actually ironclad is wrong.

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And let's just look at the
implications if mathematics

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itself, not just humans doing
math, had that structure.

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And also of course we can look
at what the implications might

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be for then OK, for laws of
physics are themselves simply a

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special case of mathematics.
What if the laws of physics?

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We're random, so we're all
somewhat comfortable with

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quantum mechanics saying the
actual variables in physics are

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random, But what would happen if
some of the laws will be

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somewhat random as well?
So this, and it's still, to put

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up mildly, very early days.
We don't know if there's

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anything of value that will come
out of this, but we're starting

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to explore a little bit of that
to see where it might get us.

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They will have a lot of value
for the community that's

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involved, that's concerned with
the sociology of mathematics as

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a profession and so on.
But these more deep issues are

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saying what if physics and
potentially even math itself are

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fundamentally stochastic, this
way still to be determined.

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I mean to give a simple example,
though, wouldn't it be fantastic

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to be able to even give an
answer to the question of is

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Girdle's incompleteness there?
Which seemingly guts Hilbert's

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goal conviction of what
mathematics had to be.

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What if that gutting of Hilbert
were itself particularly

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sensitive to any kind of noise
in the stochastic mathematical

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steps that led to its
derivation, so it itself could

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fall apart very easily?
What might that even mean?

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I haven't the faintest idea.
Go ahead, continue.

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Well, that's got to do with
stochastic mathematical systems.

230
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:47,440
Inference devices is a different
body of work, and so are things

231
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,760
like the No Free Lunch theorems.
And ultimately, I think they

232
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:57,680
sort of do need to be brought
together because they've all.

233
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,320
Well, I mean, anything
ultimately needs to be unified

234
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,440
if it's all concerning the same
ultimate coherence goal.

235
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,520
But inference devices really
goes after different things.

236
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:17,119
It talks much more about the
foundations of science and

237
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:24,920
basically says that any
scientific mathematical system.

238
00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:29,240
If it were to be able to
describe more than one

239
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:35,080
simultaneous scientist and more
than one simultaneous inference

240
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:41,920
device, then there will be
strong limitations on whether or

241
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:47,760
not both of them could actually
be correct, and this is true no

242
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,720
matter what the underlying
mathematical system is.

243
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,800
So it actually has some
implications, potentially

244
00:17:54,800 --> 00:18:00,120
depending on if you really want
to squint and perhaps some

245
00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,480
sniff, a little too much
laughing gas, nitrous oxide.

246
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,920
It's got potentially some things
you might want to say concerning

247
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,280
even religion.
There's a theorem, the

248
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,760
monotheism theorem, which
basically says that in the sense

249
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,920
of it being an inference device,
you cannot have more than two

250
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,640
deities.
You cannot have more than two

251
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,880
systems that are making
predictions, both of which are

252
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:30,480
correct.
So it's it's really though like

253
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,400
a different body of work from
the stochastic mathematical

254
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,040
systems work.
When I was I was briefly

255
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:41,400
touching on this, the fact that
as infant devices or as because

256
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,040
we have these approximations in
general, something you work on

257
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:49,280
quite often is what can we
really know about that which we

258
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:53,640
cannot even imagine?
Are they these hard limits to

259
00:18:53,640 --> 00:19:00,600
the universe?
Yeah, so that's that's what

260
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:06,080
you're touching on now as a as
an essay that I wrote, which is,

261
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,240
I've not even been able to
figure out a way to even start

262
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,640
to grapple with this
mathematically.

263
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:14,920
Here's one way of thinking of
it.

264
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,360
It's a cliche.
Many people have pointed out

265
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:28,760
that oh, a Paramecium, my dog
over there, could not understand

266
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,400
the answers we might provide to
certain questions.

267
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,160
And some people have noted that
oh, at the point of fact, they

268
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,280
might not even understand the
questions.

269
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,320
But if you think about it, it's
something like a unicellular

270
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:45,600
Organism, a Paramecium.
It doesn't even understand in

271
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,320
any way, shape or form, whatever
that word might even mean.

272
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:54,040
What a question is, and what the
significance of questions and

273
00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:58,080
answers are for any kind of
appreciation of physical

274
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,480
reality.
It's not just that the physical

275
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:09,080
reality of a paramecium might be
a gradient in some kind of free

276
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,680
energy source that it would then
use chemotaxis to try to follow,

277
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:17,280
and so on.
It's it's not just that that is

278
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,320
this entire conception of
reality.

279
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,960
It's that it doesn't even
understand that things like

280
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:31,040
questions and answers could lead
to anything that's outside of

281
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:32,680
that.
It doesn't even understand that

282
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:40,440
simple concept.
So the obvious follow up thought

283
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:46,840
is what are the analogies for us
of what questions are for

284
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,840
Paramecia?
It's not just what are the

285
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,160
answers to questions that we
cannot understand.

286
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:58,240
It's not just what are the
questions that we cannot even

287
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:05,800
formulate, it's what are the
cognitive constructs like

288
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:12,240
questions and answers in the 1st
place that are beyond our 10

289
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,960
that are beyond our ability to
even imagine.

290
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:24,400
I don't even know how to go
about addressing that question

291
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,400
being sort of copernican to the
core, that there's nothing

292
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:33,640
special about humans.
Given that that issue in various

293
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:38,720
forms is there for all other
biological systems on planet

294
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:44,840
Earth, it's got to be there for
us as well, and I don't even

295
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,320
know how exactly how to go past
that point.

296
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,960
I know because one of your
follow up questions in your own

297
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:55,400
paper was along along the lines
of how would our perception of

298
00:21:55,400 --> 00:22:01,040
reality change if we were able
to expand math to include

299
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,440
infinite strings of symbols?
Have you given that any more

300
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:09,760
thought?
So there's a there's a key thing

301
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:11,240
here.
So what you're alluding to there

302
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:18,000
is this, that communication
language, if we're really a

303
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,320
monster, is a cognitive crutch
that humans have.

304
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:27,400
Human species, Homo sapiens has
come up with to try to augment

305
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,160
our own intelligence.
It's a tool.

306
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:37,320
Language is a tool.
Many philosophers slash

307
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:42,280
scientists are just besotted
with the magic of the power of

308
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,080
the particular tool that we have
come up with, in particular its

309
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:50,280
ability to have self reference,
which is the foundation of

310
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,560
girdle and Turing and so on and
so forth.

311
00:22:54,880 --> 00:23:00,440
I instead look at human language
and just notice some particular

312
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:05,160
aspects of it.
It consists of only

313
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:12,680
one-dimensional strings, where
every element in the string is

314
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,760
chosen from some finite
alphabet, and when there's only

315
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,600
a finite number of symbols in
that string.

316
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:26,520
Any book is just that.
All of mathematics, when it's

317
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,360
written in in the actual
textbooks, in the proofs that

318
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:32,560
mathematicians sent back to one
another.

319
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:39,520
That's all it amounts to.
We know mathematically that

320
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:44,240
there is vastly richer
structures than just

321
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,960
one-dimensional finite strings
of chosen from a finite

322
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:54,840
alphabet.
We have come up with mathematics

323
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,320
that can deal with those other
things.

324
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:04,480
We even have ways of formalizing
mathematical systems built in

325
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:10,440
them.
But our minds are themselves, by

326
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,720
construction, just those
one-dimensional strings of

327
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,560
symbols.
That's our most powerful

328
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,440
cognitive crash and everything
else.

329
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,160
All the other mathematics we've
come up with is all formulated

330
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,480
ultimately in terms of those
things.

331
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:33,880
That says to me that it it's the
same thing as the question and

332
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,720
answer of the Paramecium I these
other people rhapsodize about

333
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:44,480
how powerful and impressive this
these little language things

334
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,040
that we come up with are.
I instead look at them, and I am

335
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:55,480
stunned by how impoverished, how
benighted, even with our

336
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,000
cognitive constructs our actual
minds are.

337
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,920
I I often think about the same
thing with regards to the

338
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,640
conversation about
consciousness, because this

339
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:11,240
almost linguistic limitation
that we're that we have, how do

340
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:16,080
you think it impacts this field
where it seems that people can

341
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,240
make claims, various different
views of consciousness?

342
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,360
At this point, there's so many
different philosophical

343
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:24,040
approaches, scientific
approaches.

344
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,400
Do you think that's a
fundamental feature?

345
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,680
Is this linguistic limitation to
our approach to consciousness as

346
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,640
well?
Could be, but I view

347
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,520
consciousness as.
That's why I find like

348
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,040
experiments back to Ben Levitt
for example, You're probably

349
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,320
familiar with his famous
experiments for the listeners.

350
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,520
This is several decades old
work, and it's somewhat

351
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,320
controversial now.
But there's been many, many

352
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,440
similar studies where it's just
like the severing of the corpus

353
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,520
callosum, where indicating
consciousness of fiction, he

354
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,320
will actually have electrodes in
the brains of people,

355
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:06,000
experimental subjects, where he
managed to ascertain that there

356
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,600
was being asked to make very,
very simple decisions, like when

357
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,840
to click a button on a little
sensor.

358
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,280
And they actually made the
decision that the associated

359
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,800
neurons in the motor cortex
started their firing process

360
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,920
before they were conscious that
the decision had been made.

361
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,360
But after the fact, they were
completely convinced that it was

362
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,920
all under their own control.
Completely volitional.

363
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,200
I think that there is no such
thing.

364
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,000
I mean, there are other
philosophers who said this,

365
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,520
people like Dan Dennett to a
degree that consciousness is

366
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,640
basically a fable.
Now one can worry about what's

367
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,120
the basis of it.
There's this work by this great

368
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,000
guy.
Let's see is it.

369
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,080
It's not Graziano.
It's.

370
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:53,920
I follow it.
I think it.

371
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,240
Is Graziano Michael Graziano?
There is Michael Graziano, but

372
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,080
there's also another guy at A.
Prisoner Michael Gazzano is

373
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,280
Michael Gazzaniga.
No, it's with an eye.

374
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:14,480
Princeton psychology
consciousness.

375
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,000
Who is Graziano?
You're right.

376
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,800
It is Graziano.
Yeah.

377
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,240
At Princeton, yeah.
He works on the attention schema

378
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:26,760
theory.
Yeah, he does have a medical.

379
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,560
Medical, yeah.
Yeah.

380
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,680
So he just says, look, you know,
we've got brains that by natural

381
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:39,960
selection were quote, designed
to be imputing these underlying

382
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,320
processes behind all kinds of
phenomena.

383
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,320
What would you expect to happen
if it looked inside?

384
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:47,840
King Chen Chung would come up
with these things called

385
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,560
consciousness.
So anyway, I mean there is

386
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,080
something there to be
investigated from a scientific

387
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,400
perspective.
There's also you can there's

388
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,360
obviously degrees of
consciousness in terms of

389
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:02,600
whether you're asleep or not and
things like this.

390
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,000
But in terms of notions like
qualia what some philosophers

391
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,400
and I won't name names called
the hard problem of

392
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:14,520
Consciousness.
I think that there's no there's

393
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,280
no there there.
The reason they're not making

394
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,480
any progress I don't think is
anything is profound is that

395
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:24,480
they're trying to use
one-dimensional strings of from

396
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,240
symbols from a finite alphabet
to try to address this other

397
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:35,000
kinds of scenario.
That's beyond the remit of such

398
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,240
strings.
I think the solution is far

399
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,640
simpler that no, there is no
there there.

400
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:41,960
Yeah, now Michael looks very
fascinating.

401
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,720
He, he, he talks about these
attentive mechanisms and once we

402
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,400
introspect with it's, it's
almost obvious to conclude we

403
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,520
have this sort of essence like
feature, but it's more of a

404
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,440
caricature.
We don't really have that there.

405
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:54,720
We don't really have it.
Yep.

406
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,240
And the reason that people
haven't been able to come up

407
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,320
with a good experimental test of
what qualia is, even though they

408
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:06,360
now got these various ways of
trying to formalize what

409
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,840
consciousness is, it's I would
say because there is no there

410
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,760
there that it is just this
epiphenomenon.

411
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,600
And it's a really weird kind of
a funky thing, somewhat similar

412
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,480
in a different sense of this
whole notion that there is no

413
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,280
concrete reality.
It's that if you actually have

414
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:31,640
an explanation that is complete
and almost by definition, you

415
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,880
cannot come up with an
experiment that would refute

416
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,960
what it says.
Give it up folks.

417
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,520
There's not you don't have any
basis for concluding there's

418
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:44,120
anything more.
And that is a beautiful thing to

419
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,520
me.
There is nothing more beautiful

420
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,760
than to crush my own sense of
self worth.

421
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:56,400
Lie on my back at night and look
up at the stars and try to three

422
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:02,480
dimensionally project and to
internalize just how it goes

423
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,880
beyond the word insignificant,
just how nothing I am.

424
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:12,560
I find that to be the ultimate
in liberating because you know

425
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,640
dude, whatever you're concerned
with it don't matter none.

426
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,520
And it and it also by
emphasizing how much is beyond

427
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:29,000
our possible kin.
That, to me, is more deeply

428
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,120
spiritual than anything you'll
find actually in the world's

429
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,200
major religions.
They all try to give an

430
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,360
explanation of some sort or
other.

431
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,440
And no, no, no.
The essence of it is that's

432
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,560
beyond that.
So how do you do you think then?

433
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,480
I mean considering the fact that
we have all these limitations,

434
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,280
how do you think we can move
beyond them in order to sort of

435
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:57,720
ascertain what is oh boy, that
is something I would truly I've.

436
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,160
It's a question that I don't
think can be in some ways that's

437
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:08,360
ultimately I'm what I'm finding
to be my life's underlying motif

438
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:13,120
is to try to address that.
I do not think, or at least my

439
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,840
inclination is that it cannot be
addressed directly head on.

440
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:23,720
You must do it sideways.
So I think that there might be

441
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,360
other and we need to have it in
all hands on deck kind of a

442
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:32,720
thing.
So we definitely necessary is to

443
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,600
have math and experiment there,
because those are the only

444
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,760
things that are able to cut
through our own bullshit.

445
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,040
The only thing that to actually
save us, possibly from believing

446
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,400
our own hype and our own
propaganda, drinking our own

447
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,320
Kool-aid, are math and its
scientific experiment, as

448
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,400
limited as they are.
So it is necessary that they be

449
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,360
front and centre.
But if we're going to have any

450
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,560
prayer of getting there, I don't
think that they are quite

451
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,920
sufficient.
It's all hands on deck, as I

452
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:10,960
said, which means some of the
other aspects of things like

453
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,600
what's sometimes called the
arts, some kind of synergy.

454
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,800
I don't think any of the things
that people have come up with in

455
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,720
terms of overlaps between the
arts and the sciences are

456
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,480
frankly anything beyond
pathetic.

457
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,680
I mean, look, here are some
beautiful images of the Eagle

458
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,360
Nebula.
Yep, that's beautiful.

459
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,240
Here, I'm trying to pretend that
these photographs to

460
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,920
polarization lenses are
artistic.

461
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:45,320
OK, well, cool relief for you.
Or going the other way, when

462
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,400
scientists, you know, things
like science fiction.

463
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,520
I'm a I'm a great fan.
But no, that is not actually

464
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,200
integrating of the arts and the
sciences any kind of a deep

465
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,080
level.
I think many people would like

466
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,240
to do that.
And there's all kinds of cool,

467
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,840
fun things, especially for like
getting your kids really

468
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,480
interested in this stuff, you
know, sort of children's museums

469
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,880
kinds of things.
But I don't think that there's

470
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:18,320
anything that really is at the
foundations starting to have

471
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:24,280
these two copulate, so to speak.
Do you think it's a silly

472
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,480
question when people ask that
that very popular question of

473
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:35,960
was math created or invented?
It's actually, I would say both.

474
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,000
Here is this is going to be
maybe a workshop that I'm going

475
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,640
to be putting on here at the SFI
actually, with a bunch of

476
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,440
artists, philosophers,
physicists, mathematicians.

477
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,400
I envision it almost as an
Uroboros, a snake eating its own

478
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:58,920
tail.
I've sketched for you how math

479
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,520
itself you can view all of the
what physicists call a theory of

480
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,920
everything, string theory or
what whatever it is, it is

481
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:12,520
written in math.
From that you get ultimately at

482
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,040
the going beyond the Planck
scale.

483
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:20,320
You get high energy theory.
You get quantum mechanics from

484
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,440
that.
Ultimately this is the standard

485
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:30,560
succession of magisteria of U.
You get chemistry, from which

486
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,199
you will ultimately get things
like biology, from which you

487
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,840
ultimately get things like
neurobiology, from which you

488
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,199
ultimately get things like.
And you started this

489
00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:44,960
conversation with this with
humans constructing mathematics

490
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,679
which pulls you full circle.
The damned snake eats its own

491
00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:54,800
tail, because once it's
constructing mathematics wholly

492
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,800
ex would have deleted the
foundation was all about that

493
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,600
mathematics.
I would almost view the question

494
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:07,680
of invented or discovered as yes
and yes.

495
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:12,000
One insertion point is that
Uroboros is being invented.

496
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,200
The other point, it's being
discovered.

497
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,120
There's another answer to it
which is more, well, frankly, a

498
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,600
little bit pedestrian, which is
that mathematicians and

499
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,720
physicists and so on all act as
though mathematics is

500
00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:30,800
discovered.
But if you push it to the wall,

501
00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:33,600
they'll say that no, well,
actually, I can't claim it's

502
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:39,360
anything more than invented.
That's true as well, but in a

503
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,800
certain sense that's just a
statement about how various

504
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,320
mathematicians and scientists
view what it is that they do,

505
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,400
rather than anything about the
IT underlying it all.

506
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:58,520
So then, do you feel like Max
Tegmott's mathematical realism?

507
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,840
Do you feel like you fall under
a similar category?

508
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:06,240
In that sense, I view the the
starting point of the snake,

509
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:07,960
yes.
When I was saying that any

510
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:12,200
mathematical system is just as
real as one as another one that

511
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:15,840
is down there at those
foundations.

512
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,800
Once you go all the way up and
around and follow up on our

513
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,200
particular mathematical system,
which is one that ends up with

514
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:32,400
our neurobiology and our social
constructs, that particular one

515
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,800
then comes back around.
But here's like another obvious

516
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,080
question.
Adopt some other mathematical

517
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,040
system down at the it's all
mathematics.

518
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:47,520
Max Tegmark kind of level follow
it's reality up.

519
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,640
We can't even imagine doing
this, but let's say you did, and

520
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,480
let's say at some point it
actually turned the corner and

521
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:01,920
came back to mathematics.
How would its mathematics differ

522
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,160
from our mathematics?
Is there actually even more than

523
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,000
one Uroboros where they're all
interested?

524
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:14,720
Who's a blankly blank knows?
This is all abstract nonsense.

525
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,080
The problem, though, is that
even though it is abstract

526
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,840
nonsense, ultimately, if you
want to really sit down and

527
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,920
spend time and drill on
anything, this is where you end

528
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,120
up.
If you've got to go to the

529
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:35,440
market and get some milk to
bring home well, if you start to

530
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,680
really drill on any aspect of
that, what does driving amount

531
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,240
to?
Well, driving amounts to

532
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,880
thermodynamic processes that are
actually releasing free energy

533
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,440
that is usable from certain
chemical reactions?

534
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,640
Well, I mean then why they, what
do they store dynamics?

535
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,440
Just start drilling anywhere
milk.

536
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,720
What does milk amount to?
Why am I conceiving of milk in

537
00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:57,320
this way?
What does it mean for my me to

538
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,840
view it as white?
Just start drilling on any one

539
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,800
of these aspects of these sort
of oh, yeah, yeah, what is it I

540
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,840
got to do this afternoon?
What's spend time with them?

541
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:12,480
Once you, Wayne Thibo, used this
phrase about paintings that you

542
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:18,280
must respect a painting, give it
time in front of it to really

543
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,160
see what lessons it might teach
you.

544
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:26,080
Similarly, once you respect any
aspect of your daily life, give

545
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,760
it time.
So you sit in front of it and

546
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,600
see what it might teach you.
Start drilling down on it.

547
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:37,720
Just like there's a painting you
will end up, you can't avoid it

548
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,720
going down into this abstract
nonsense.

549
00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:45,240
It goes well beyond how do we
know we're not brains into that

550
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,360
or the modern version of it,
which people don't realize is

551
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,720
that don't appreciate the same
question of how do we know

552
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:53,760
whether we're simulations in a
computer.

553
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:59,680
You don't keep on going.
Go past that all abstract

554
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,400
nonsense and guess what?
That's all that any of it

555
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,400
ultimately is.
And then I sit back on in the

556
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:11,840
Meadow in the summer and look up
at the stars and just holy shit.

557
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,320
Do you think this this universe
has some sort of a teleology

558
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:21,120
built in it in terms of being
driven for a purpose some?

559
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,520
Sort of a goal, Directedness.
Non religious some some sort of

560
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,320
a.
Perhaps even a mathematical

561
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,360
conclusion.
A mathematical system has no

562
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,400
particular conclusion.
There is not even time.

563
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,880
The block model of time is well
established in physics and well

564
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:45,920
accepted that there is no actual
time moving all moments in time.

565
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:49,080
Even within standard physics you
don't need to get down to Max

566
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,560
Tegmark.
All moments in time exist

567
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,960
simultaneously, so to speak.
There is no preferred one.

568
00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,520
There's no time itself in in the
laws of physics, it's a single

569
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,960
variable.
It's not that there's a time

570
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,200
axis and then a pointer moving
along it.

571
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,640
Where you are here, it's only a
single variable.

572
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,680
You can then do work on why it
is that we have what's called

573
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:19,080
the psychological arrow, why we
think that time's actually got a

574
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:24,760
preferred movement.
That actually it, it appears,

575
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:29,120
can be completely explained by
the fact that we can remember

576
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,480
the past far more accurately
than we can predict the future.

577
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:38,480
Retro diction is completely
accurate compared to prediction

578
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,600
that itself you can drill down
to the second law of

579
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,120
thermodynamics.
So in terms of an unfolding

580
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:51,480
process, the very notion of
unfolding in a certain sense is

581
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,600
a vacuous one.
Is there going to be something

582
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,640
at the late time periods that's
not there at the beginning time

583
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,000
periods?
Sure.

584
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:06,960
But I wouldn't glorify that with
any kind of a teleology, no kind

585
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,160
of a goal that in a certain
important sense, there's not

586
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:16,480
even any sense in which the end
time Trump's the beginning time.

587
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,840
They're both equally real.
It's not that one is creating

588
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:25,120
the other.
The the the microscopic laws of

589
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,440
physics are time symmetric.
You could actually go backwards

590
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,360
as it really is forwards.
Do do you think that

591
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,120
philosophers of of science or
mathematic overdo it with these

592
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,360
these abstract questions
regarding these phenomena?

593
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:44,960
I think that they are wrong
headed because in that they are,

594
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:51,000
they're looking out from inside
of their room through the

595
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:57,920
windows and trying to understand
the distinctions between these

596
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,520
distorted views that they're
seeing and what there's there

597
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:05,360
inside the room.
If you instead go outside and

598
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:10,320
adopt this point of view,
there's all just implications of

599
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,720
mathematics that you're just
working it through all the

600
00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:17,560
things that I would say that so
many of the conundrums that seem

601
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:24,160
so deep and intractable in
philosophy, they evanesce

602
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,720
they're gone, there's there's
nothing left.

603
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,360
The It's like in the Zen
Buddha's koan.

604
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,360
The answer to the question is MU
and ask the question.

605
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,320
And I think that that would
happen to much of at least

606
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:43,360
what's considered Western
philosophy of science if one

607
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,080
whole heart adopted these
understand these underlying

608
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,680
lessons, for lack of a better
word, of math and science.

609
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:57,440
David, I know you have time wise
you you find you because I think

610
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,120
are you OK for time?
Yeah, Yeah.

611
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,600
Yeah.
So I do have like, you know,

612
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,960
maybe a few more minutes, but
then I will probably.

613
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,880
David, if you had to think of.
Projects for mathematicians or

614
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,600
scientists to embark on moving
forward to try and broaden those

615
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,680
or expand those those limits
that we might have already.

616
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:28,760
Where would you go with this?
I am not a poet.

617
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:33,320
I'm a faker.
But I've got some dog rule on my

618
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:42,640
Weebly website and whenever I am
in a mode of creating something

619
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:47,720
that, if it were much better
than it is, might be graced with

620
00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:55,960
the with the moniker of a poem,
I don't come up them after at

621
00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:02,680
them directly.
I try to situate myself.

622
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:10,440
I try to adopt A stance, almost
a wrestler's configuration, such

623
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:19,440
that as things come through, I
can turn and exploit them.

624
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:24,600
I try to be receptive to them
rather than just pursue One

625
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:29,560
Direction.
These issues talk about

626
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,720
respecting paintings like Wayne
Thibault.

627
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,680
This one I respect even more
than those things that are up

628
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,240
there on my website that I do
not know.

629
00:44:40,240 --> 00:44:46,280
I'm I've been trying to, in my
career, accumulate a set of

630
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,680
different understandings.
I wouldn't glorify them by

631
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:54,600
saying skill sets, but a
different perspectives that

632
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:59,280
maybe, if I'm lucky, the only
chance that I have of getting

633
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,280
anywhere would be that they
might all come together somehow

634
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,960
if I am properly open upstairs,
so to speak.

635
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:10,640
And that's the best that I can
do.

636
00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:16,600
Is, is there, is there any sort
of goal mathematically in terms

637
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,040
of your work, something that
completely absorbs you and

638
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:26,600
inspires you at this moment?
Oh lordy, I mean, I'm doing so

639
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,320
many things at once to talk
about one of the things that we

640
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,960
did earlier today.
I've been trying to figure out

641
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:37,760
even what mathematical system to
use to go after analyzing

642
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,680
stochastic mathematical systems
to try to see things like is

643
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,240
Girdle's incompleteness theorem
robust or sensitive to noise?

644
00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:48,560
And so on.
Unfortunately, there's so many

645
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,040
ways of formal the foundations
of mathematics.

646
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,960
There's category theory.
There's various kinds of logic,

647
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,880
2nd order logic with some
associated model theory.

648
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,280
There are things like type
theory.

649
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,720
You might be able to do some
stuff in terms of just using

650
00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:12,360
outlook information theory.
There's so many different ways

651
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:17,560
of even trying to write down the
mathematics that you could then

652
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:23,520
introduce stochasticity into.
That's one aspect of things that

653
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,240
absorbs my attention.
But I'm involved with so very

654
00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:32,160
many different projects, many of
them far more prosaic than

655
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,160
anything we talked about today.
I was just gonna say, I mean,

656
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,240
your work touches on so many
different topics, and I think

657
00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:41,360
because the core concepts align
with these, our perceptions and

658
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,240
cognitive abilities, it makes it
very fascinating for someone who

659
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:45,880
doesn't have a mathematical
background.

660
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,080
To to at least go over it
because it's it's way too

661
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,440
complicated for someone who does
not have that mathematical

662
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,440
background.
For me, it's too complicated for

663
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,000
me.
Yeah, I I know what I am.

664
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,520
I know my strengths.
I even have this on my website.

665
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,920
I am not careful enough to be an
experimentalist, but I'm not

666
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:06,760
smart enough to be a
mathematician.

667
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:12,400
I everything else is fair game.
But I'm not a mathematician.

668
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,080
I am in awe of mathematicians.
I don't yet.

669
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,360
I still do not understand how it
is that end of the story.

670
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,320
When I way back in the day when
I was an undergrad, I had

671
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,520
Princeton.
Like many others, I'm in my

672
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,880
cohort.
We were trying to figure out,

673
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,880
well, we want to go into.
In this case, it was writing,

674
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:36,160
creative writing, mathematics or
physics, creative writing.

675
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:40,320
I very quickly passed that
because I knew that, among other

676
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,440
things, there's no way you can
make a living out of it.

677
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:44,440
And I didn't really think I had
the chops there.

678
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:47,640
It was fascinating to look at
those who went one way or the

679
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:53,880
other on math versus physics,
The ones who went into math they

680
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,760
perceived and felt they weren't
actually able to do the physics

681
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,320
very well.
And those who went into physics,

682
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,600
at least ones like me, as
opposed to the monster minds who

683
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:10,400
can do, you know, the Ed Wittens
who can do all the ones like me.

684
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:15,080
It was the math that was more
daunting and I never really

685
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,280
understood it.
I didn't understand the.

686
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,360
To me, I am still more impressed
by math because what I cannot do

687
00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:24,920
I what I don't understand is how
it is that the mathematicians,

688
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,440
those minds of which I am such
an awe.

689
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,440
That's why it is that they keep
sort of screwing up in these

690
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,560
very simple ways when they try
to solve things in the sciences.

691
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:38,800
So anyway, something about
differences.

692
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,960
But I'm not a mathematician, I'm
in all.

693
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:43,880
Mathematicians.
I mean anyone who can make up

694
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,720
theorems, and I mean do that.
I think you you definitely claim

695
00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:50,520
that that that label you yield
greatness.

696
00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:58,000
OK, math has very many purposes.
One of them is just to actually

697
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,200
make you understand what it is
you're thinking in the 1st

698
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:02,600
place.
If you can't formalize it

699
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,000
mathematically, chances are
you're bullshitting yourself.

700
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:12,400
And that's one of its purposes.
And that's one that I do exploit

701
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:14,520
many, many times in many, many
different arenas, yeah.

702
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:15,960
And I think you can see that in
the work.

703
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,280
Well, I mean, I know, I know
you're stuck for time.

704
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:20,600
David, thank you so much for
joining me.

705
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:23,120
Well, thanks for having me.