Consciousness Beyond Materialism: A New Framework for Mind & Reality | Elly Vintiadis

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Thank you so much for joining
me, Ellie.

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Welcome to Mind Body Solution.
Thank you for having me.

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Well, it's a pleasure to host
you today.

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This is an exciting time because
it's Round 3 for our Mind at

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Large project, our special
series for this channel, and

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you're a key contributor to this
project as well.

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Just by the way, I wanted to
actually make sure that we

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mentioned a call for submission.
So there's abstract submissions

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that we'd like people to present
to us and it will be part of our

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project, part of publication.
So a call to action for everyone

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who wants to be part of this.
Submit your submissions within

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before January.
I will put a link to that below.

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So try and join us and hope we
see you in Exeter in April.

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It's going to be from the 15th
to the 17th.

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So yeah, I just thought I'd.
Put that, and it would

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particularly appreciate
submissions from graduate

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students and early careers
researchers.

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We want you to be part of this.
Definitely and I will put links

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to that and all the submission
guidelines below.

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So if you need further details,
just click the link below.

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Eddie, with that being said,
this project is is there to

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explore consciousness and its
role in reality, from

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consciousness to cosmos to
connection.

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How do you define mind at lodge
for you?

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Is it a metaphysical thesis, is
it a methodological stance, or

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something else?
Yes, well, I must admit that my

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instincts are very cautious when
it comes to metaphysics.

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I'm a bit of a offense sitter,
so I don't share necessarily the

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intuitions or ideas that many of
the other people in the group

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do.
So what?

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But what I do share with them is
the idea, I think that we all

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share this idea that materialism
and physicalism, which is the

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main game in town both in
science and in philosophy, is a

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very narrow way of thinking
about consciousness.

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And it doesn't capture the
richness of our mental life, but

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it's also doesn't do justice to
how consciousness is connected

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to an organism's being in the
world.

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So, and I think this is what the
mind at large is project is

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trying to capture.
We want to bring, we want to get

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people to start thinking beyond
a materialist framework and it

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attain ideas that maybe that go
beyond it, maybe that it's

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something more, maybe that it's
something other, maybe that

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can't be captured by this
framework, which is the working

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framework for the past three
centuries or so.

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And I think it's it's important
you you just touched on it.

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But for anyone who's watching
and trying to get involved with

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this, it's great to have Someone
Like You on the podcast with

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this project as well because of
the very fact that your views

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are very different from any of
the other past guests that I've

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had.
Even so, when it comes to Peter,

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even though of course you guys
share similar views, ultimately

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it's a great space for people to
not just jump on the anti

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materialism bandwagon, but
rather show diverse opinions and

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differences within the field of
philosophy and show how many of

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them actually collaborate well
together and show the

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contradictions and the
irregularities in other

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philosophies.
So I think it's great that you

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share a slightly different view.
Do you want to perhaps go into

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some of that?
So we've had pizza on the show.

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I mean, it's very important that
we're not trying to impose a

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viewpoint on people.
I think.

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I think our emphasis is on
dialogue.

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We thought, let's bring
scientists and philosophers

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together to start discussing
alternatives because

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alternatives do exist.
Of course, it's not that we're

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we're just bringing, they'll be
the first people to bring them

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up.
But it's always on the margins

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of materialism.
I mean, if, if you think of

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Rutherford 125 years ago, he
said 100 and 100 years ago he

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said this physics and the, and
there is stamp collecting,

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that's it.
And this is it.

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This is the idea.
And it continues to hold strong,

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though we do have, there are
other views increasingly,

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there's a lot of evidences
accumulating.

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So we thought, let's bring these
people together.

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Let's think beyond materialism.
Maybe there will be some cross

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fertilization.
And we also, I think felt all of

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us.
But in order to start this

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discussion, because it's it's
going to be 3 conferences, so we

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thought that we should start the
discussion with how we got here.

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So we need to talk about the
philosophy of science, the

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sociology of science, the
sociology of philosophy and

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academia in general.
And this is something that is

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not included in most people's
education and very much so in

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ours too.
And I think Quil Cookler in the

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paper once said she wrote that
the aim of philosophy or, or one

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of the aims of philosophy, I
don't remember exactly, is to

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denaturalize ideas that seem
obvious to us.

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Because the ideas that everybody
shares around us that seem

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obvious are the ones that go
under the radar, the ones that

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we don't really critically
discuss.

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So I think that what we're
trying to do, if I had to sum it

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up, is that we're trying to
denaturalize materialism.

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And if you understand how we got
the first step is understanding

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how we got there.
Because if you understand how we

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got there, then you will
understand that maybe it's not

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so obvious, it's not so
innocent, and it's not neutral

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really.
Yeah, I couldn't have said it

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better myself.
We've laid out a bit of a

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framework Mind at Large project.
Now everyone's familiar once

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again.
Let's start and dissect this and

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go into what we're talking
about.

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When it comes to the philosophy,
the history, sorry, of

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philosophy of mind,
particularly, it has been

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dominated by a materialist view
for quite some time.

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I mean, prior to that we had
dualism.

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We've had various alternative
theories.

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But when you think of the mind
body problem and you think of

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consciousness studies, what type
of philosophical story would you

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tell someone if you were giving
us a, a brief historical lecture

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right now?
What, what, how would you

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condense that into a short
summary?

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It's like, it's quite a tough
one.

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You mean philosophically or
scientifically?

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Philosophically more more so.
So most people start with

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Descartes.
They start with the general

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dualism.
If you were to tell us the

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story, maybe from a mind at
large perspective, maybe, let's

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say to open the doors of
thinking beyond the general

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materials framework, how would
you tell that story?

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Well, philosophy of course
doesn't start with the card, but

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I suppose that the the, the mind
body problem, the problem of

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consciousness as we have it
today begins with the cards and

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really begins, I think it really
begins with the beginning of

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physics as we know it today.
But the card of course was a

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jewellist.
And then for many different

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social forces, some of which you
discussed, I think with Matt and

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Peter, materialism substitute,
it's not so much that

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materialism substituted dualism,
is that dualism just became an

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extremely difficult position to
defend for some people given

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certain assumptions.
And and then, but there were

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always other ideas, there was
idealism.

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Idealism is, I think easier to
defend than materialism, almost.

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But then again, for different
social forces, because of the

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leaps that of science, because
of the decade of the brain when

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it comes to to consciousness
study to even I suppose

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psychiatry, materialism came to
dominate and this begin but but,

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but this begins, I think in with
Galileo, with this in the 17.

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Well, it doesn't really begin
with Galileo, but Galileo we, we

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can identify Galileo as a major
force there because Galileo

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comes along and says, look, and
this is at the beginning of the

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scientific revolution.
He says, look, I don't know how

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to handle phenomenal states,
consciousness, Quailia, whatever

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you want to call them.
So let's put them aside.

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Let's let's build science and
let's define it as what studies

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quantifiable phenomena, you
know, He says the book of nature

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is written in mathematical
language.

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So phenomenal qualities are put
aside.

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They're not really out there.
They are not part of the

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physical world.
They're part of something inside

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your head, which is the move,
which is not really new, of

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course, in the history of human
thinking.

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I was thinking of Plato today,
because Plato also had Plato had

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the problem of change.
He couldn't understand how

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change happens.
So he says, OK, change is not

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real, Reality isn't changing,
and it's up there.

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It's up the forms and the ideas,
and change is only the realm of

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appearances.
So this is a similar move to

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Galileo.
So Galileo takes phenomenal

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states, takes consciousness out
of science and then we build

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this fantastic science, which is
very good that manipulating the

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world.
But of course if you are, if you

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start asking questions about
science, you realise that

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manipulation is one thing,
understanding is quite another.

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So now we have, so science did
all these things.

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So then science started looking
at the brain and there we had

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the problem because we have a
lot of information about the

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brain.
We have a lot of information

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about psychological States and
how human, you know, the how

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human act and react.
But we have no idea how to

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connect those things, which is
not surprising since, you know,

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they've been separated at the
birth, let's say.

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And so we have all these other
positions.

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So one one way it says that they
don't fit together.

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They just don't.
So we have duelism.

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Another way is to say they are
the same thing.

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You're just seeing them from a
different perspective.

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That would be some form of
materialism or another kind of

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monism.
Or you can say we you don't have

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to put consciousness back into
the physical world because

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consciousness was already there
all the time.

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Which is forms of punsykism I
suppose.

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I'm not sure I answered your
your question at all.

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No, it's great because you you
sort of giving us a nice map of

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the arena of mind, let's say,
and the way these ideas sort of

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evolved over time, which is
great and I think.

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And now we have 360 theories of
consciousness.

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That's what Robert Lawrence Kuhn
said.

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And he says we 350320I don't
know well, and he says we're

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missing one, which is of course
true.

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We're missing one.
But my feeling is, and, and this

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is more of a feeling than
something else, that the answer

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is not going to come in the
framework we currently have.

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We we need a conceptual shift,
which I don't think we have

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right now.
Yeah.

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And and science, I think, and
philosophy have to work together

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in certain ways, and we can.
Yeah.

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So, yeah, it's it's true.
A paradigm shift is sort of

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needed for this.
I mean, you the reason why I was

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so excited to chat to you is
because our work's quite

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similar.
When I did my visitation, they

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did work in within mental health
and psychiatry as well.

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What do you think our models
within psychiatry are lacking?

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That's just not allowing us to
approach consciousness in the

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way we we want to.
Well, it depends which model you

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are talking about.
But well, for instance, a

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reductive model like the
biomedical model of mental

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disorders, which is not always,
it's not always and not

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necessarily reductive, but let's
say it is for the time being, I

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think it's looking at the wrong
place.

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It's too narrow.
You have to look back because I

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think, I think you cannot
understand consciousness without

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understanding or mental
disorders without understanding

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the whole Organism in relation
to it's his environment.

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So if you just look at the
brain, I can understand how some

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people say, but it must be the
brain that produces

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consciousness and we have to
look there.

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But when it comes to mental
disorders, things are much more

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complicated, I think.
And then of course, and of

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course, if you let's let's take
one thing at a time.

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If we're talking about
consciousness, you have to look

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at the different forms of
consciousness.

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Generally when we when we
discuss consciousness, when we

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research consciousness, we are
thinking of typical

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consciousness and typical
consciousness is sober adult

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human experience.
I mean, there are people who

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study other kinds of
consciousness, but generally

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that's the default.
But there's a huge variation

229
00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:12,840
when it comes to mental
phenomena.

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In psychiatry, we see meant how
mental capacities fail and come

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apart.
We see that mental capacities

232
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function differently in
different beings.

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We see that consciousness
differs from time to time in the

234
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,960
same person and depending on
what's happening around them,

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00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,800
you know, and then you think of
psychedelic states.

236
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So this is how I got into this
because I'm interested in our

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obligations to animals.
And then I started thinking

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00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,360
about animals minds.
This is not my area of research,

239
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,440
but I'm very interested in it.
And then I was looking in

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psychedelic therapy.
And in both cases we have

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00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:01,880
consciousness which is atypical.
And if you don't look at these

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kinds of consciousness and
you're looking only at human

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00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,440
consciousness, then you can be
prone to make, I think, many

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00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,760
mistakes There's.
Also the fact that, I mean, I

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remember while working as a
psychiatric medical officer in

246
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,880
psychiatry, there's many
psychiatrists who have never

247
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:21,800
heard of things like
phenomenological

248
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:23,480
psychopathology.
They don't know who Karlie

249
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,640
Aspers is.
They don't know really Ponti.

250
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,640
They don't know all these other
thinkers who, who have, who have

251
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,640
given different foundational
core features and benefits

252
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,000
within psychiatry that have just
not been explored enough values

253
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,640
based practice and just other
alternative ways of looking at

254
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,680
people and understanding the
nature of reality.

255
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,000
We, we tend to summarize it into
the bias psychosocial approach,

256
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,720
which and, and often people feel
very excited about saying that,

257
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,400
but it really is very limited
still.

258
00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:50,760
There's so many more factors
beyond that.

259
00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:52,680
Is there anything about that you
want to touch on Well?

260
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:58,400
Well, in psychiatry, you, you
are, you are trained as doctors

261
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,360
really, right?
So I suppose that makes sense

262
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,080
because maybe someone who
studies psychology instead of

263
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,560
psychiatry would be more
educated on these things, you

264
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,000
know?
Now, that's, that's very true.

265
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,120
Fair enough.
That's a good point.

266
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,200
But I still think that when
practicing medicine, you still

267
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,600
have to take the human
experience as a whole.

268
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:23,160
You mean you can't just get
caught up in the in the biology

269
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:29,000
of the being while ignoring the
social, psychological, embodied

270
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,840
and active all the other
elements that we're trying to

271
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:33,320
explore within this project as
well?

272
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,440
Because I think it will
fundamentally shift the way

273
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,280
medicine is practiced as well.
Only for the better is what I

274
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:39,520
believe.
Absolutely.

275
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,520
I suppose that the problem, the
fear is that it, it, it becomes

276
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,240
very complex and some people
might hear that it therefore

277
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,760
becomes intractable.
But of course, the other side of

278
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,680
the coin is that if it does
become very complex, which of

279
00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:01,400
course it is very complex in the
case of psychiatry, there are,

280
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,520
it gives you more ways to
intervene and, and, and try and

281
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,760
solve the problem instead of
like, you know, popping a pill

282
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,680
or have 45 minute sessions where
you can discuss your, I don't

283
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,560
know, your father.
Yeah.

284
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,119
There's there's also there's
there's multi factor pills,

285
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,160
there's elements of overworked,
under underpaid, not enough

286
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,520
staff, so many other factors to
explore, which which does tend

287
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,079
to make it a lot more difficult
because it's easier to than just

288
00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:32,160
give a Med fix the biology and
and then they're off to have a

289
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,400
momentary fix.
Yes.

290
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,160
And, and of course, I think to
be fair to the psychiatrist, I,

291
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:42,200
I, I am pretty sure that it's
not only because they believe

292
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:45,200
that mental disorders are
physical that they give people

293
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,200
pills.
And I think people want pills.

294
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,320
I think it's it's much easier,
first of all, to take a pill

295
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,920
than to actually sit down and do
the work or change your

296
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:58,080
lifestyle or really go through
years of trying to figure things

297
00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,120
out.
No, I completely agree with

298
00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:01,920
that.
Anyway, let's, let's, let's move

299
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,320
back into this, this area of
consciousness and then we'll

300
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,400
slowly bridge it back into
psychiatry.

301
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,720
How do you if when you think of
consciousness, do you think of

302
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,960
it as something that's
fundamental, emergent,

303
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,920
constructed, universal?
How do you define it?

304
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:30,880
Interesting.
If I were, I'm not quite sure,

305
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,000
but I don't know it's.
A good answer to be.

306
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:38,880
Honest, sometimes I am pulled by
the idea that it's something

307
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,680
fundamental, but then I don't
understand how that can be.

308
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,960
I not that I understand how
matter can be fundamental.

309
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,440
I have the same problem.
I'm I'm pulled by both

310
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,760
consciousness and the material
world as fundamental.

311
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:06,760
I tend to think if you push me a
lot, I might think it could be

312
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:15,800
emergent, an emergent property
of certain complex structures at

313
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,760
the time.
In so far I suppose organic, but

314
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,840
I do not exclude the possibility
that.

315
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,760
Would and, and within that
emergence, would you say then it

316
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,080
would be more organic within the
brain or would it be something

317
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,560
else?
So electromagnetic information,

318
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:34,760
let's say like semi field
theory.

319
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:36,720
You've got someone like John Joe
McFadden, you've got other

320
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,160
people who explore beyond the
brain, but still very much part

321
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:45,120
of the brain.
How do you draw that

322
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:47,640
distinction?
Where do you line?

323
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,040
Yeah, it's a it's a tough one.
So what's some of the so that

324
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,320
comes into more?
I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it's

325
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,680
quantum mechanics, but someone
like John Joe McFadden would

326
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,600
talk about semi field theory,
consciousness as in

327
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,560
electromagnetic information
field.

328
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,240
So it's not necessary the actual
brain's software, but rather the

329
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,040
emitting outer activity off the
actual software.

330
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,600
So there's an extra layer, let's
say within the material world,

331
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,720
though let's let's not forget
that's still a very much

332
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,400
materialist theory.
However, it's not actually just

333
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,360
the brain.
I might be butchering that

334
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:28,200
theory, by the way.
Does that at least sound

335
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,720
plausible?
Look, it sounds more plausible

336
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,160
than saying that it's a property
of the brain.

337
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,800
I that's that's, I cannot see
how that could be.

338
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,520
Yes.
I mean, first of all, why would

339
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,320
the brain be conscious?
A brain, right?

340
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:52,160
An Organism needs to be
conscious, and the Organism

341
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,760
needs to be conscious, I think
to in order to interact with the

342
00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:00,640
world it found itself into.
So yes, the idea that other

343
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,160
things in the body have a say in
consciousness.

344
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,520
I think this is absolutely
right, but I can't evaluate the

345
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,800
theory because I'm it's this
thing that we, there's something

346
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,600
missing that that will allow us
to make sense of all these

347
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,200
theories.
Because many theories have many

348
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,320
parts that make sense.
And there are many theories that

349
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,600
seem plausible.
But for something to be

350
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,480
plausible and for something to
be true is very different.

351
00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:38,800
And I think we, I mean, we think
about materialism, we don't even

352
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,720
know what matter is.
And I'm not thinking in terms of

353
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,920
intrinsic nature.
I think that looking for an

354
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,400
intrinsic nature might be the
wrong way to go.

355
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:54,080
And, and I also think that maybe
matter could be just it's

356
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,320
effect.
I think I realise this is very

357
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,880
controversial thing to say.
Maybe there's nothing more to

358
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:03,840
matter than that, but that even
that doesn't solve our problems.

359
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:10,360
I mean, how does matter?
What does it mean for something

360
00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:13,920
to have charge other than how it
interacts?

361
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,480
What we don't understand the
relationships of things, the

362
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:22,000
relations of physical forces,
let's say.

363
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,600
So before we know, before we can
make sense of all these

364
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:30,560
theories, I would need a better
understanding of the concept

365
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,000
involved.
And I think it's it's important

366
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,520
for us to to get that
information and just try and

367
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,400
gather as much as possible
because as we just touched on

368
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,120
briefly, it fundamentally
changes the way we will treat

369
00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:46,480
people, patience, humanity, and
the way we move forward.

370
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,120
So there's so many implications
to theories of consciousness

371
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:52,880
that it's a very important thing
to discuss.

372
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,600
Yes, and also how we how, how we
deal with each other every day.

373
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,400
I think that that's also very
important, yes.

374
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,600
Much of your work intersects
with psychiatry, as we just

375
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,320
said, let's say within the
brain, within the brain model

376
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,320
of, of the way we sort of
understand organisms, we, we

377
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,560
tend to think, okay, there's
something going wrong in the

378
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,720
prefrontal cortex.
This is the type of medication I

379
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,240
want to give.
This is what I want you to do.

380
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,240
Let's change that ontology.
Let's say that there's something

381
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,960
deeper here, something much more
interconnected, more complex.

382
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,480
Like we said earlier, you can't
just give it a quick fix pull.

383
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,920
How should we then change our
metaphysics of mind to adapt and

384
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,360
accommodate this changed
ontology?

385
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:37,720
I wouldn't start with ontology
and then going to what we

386
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,040
understand of of mental
disorders.

387
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:43,800
I think we should go the other
way around.

388
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:51,400
So, so first of all, what seems
to be the case, right?

389
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,880
The, the, when you, when you
read about mental disorders in

390
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,720
the popular press, they say, ah,
you know, I don't know, anxiety,

391
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,840
it's a chemical imbalance and
addiction is just a disease.

392
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:10,600
It's nothing more and so on.
Now, I think, let me, let me

393
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,360
start by that and then I'll, I
think I will get to your

394
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:22,000
question sideways.
I, I, I think this is wrong

395
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,080
because first of all, a mental
disorder, you we have a case of

396
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:32,920
a mental disorder when a person
systematically interacts with

397
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:38,960
the world in a problematic way.
Now what is problematic about

398
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,080
that?
What's problematic about that,

399
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,600
and I'm following here Matthew
Broome and Lisa Portolotti, is

400
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,880
that they've the behaviour, the
interaction violates certain

401
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,040
norms.
Now these could be epistemic

402
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,760
norms, so let's say norms of
rationality that you form

403
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:04,600
beliefs based on not enough
evidence, moral norms.

404
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:11,000
You go around killing people or
hurting people or social norms,

405
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:19,400
I don't know, you rarely wash.
You go to the theatre and shout

406
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,880
things at the people who are
performing plays.

407
00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:26,400
So if you think about it, that's
how we identify mental disorders

408
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,600
and that's how we we tried to
solve them.

409
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,280
I mean, if I gave you a brain
and I said look, if I gave you a

410
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,520
brain scan, I said look.
So and so is happening

411
00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:42,280
schizophrenia, but there is
absolutely nothing in the

412
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,360
behaviour of the person that's
changed in the experience of the

413
00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:50,720
person that just changed.
Suppose he's absolutely normal

414
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,240
in the statistical sense of
normal.

415
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,440
Would you say that the person is
has schizophrenia, suffering

416
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,120
from schizophrenia?
No, that's not the level we

417
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:05,280
identify that.
So of course people say yes, but

418
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,200
there's something.
There's something there in the

419
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,360
brain.
Undoubtedly the things happen in

420
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:12,680
the brain.
Things happen in the brain as we

421
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:13,760
speak.
Things happen.

422
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,000
The brain changes every time you
learn something new.

423
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:27,120
And there will be changes in the
brain when a person is suffering

424
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:31,400
over from anxiety, has OCD,
schizophrenia, whatever you

425
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,520
want.
But that's not the level at

426
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:41,280
which the pathology lies because
in fact just a variation, even a

427
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,480
variation shared by many people
doesn't necessarily amount to

428
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,720
pathology.
So let's take this as a first.

429
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,840
Given that this is not the level
at which the pathology is

430
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,760
identified, let's take a
question of evidence, which is

431
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,840
also important that we really
don't have any clinically useful

432
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,200
biomarkers for mental disorders.
OK.

433
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:10,760
We have, we have some biomarkers
for Alzheimer's disease, but I'm

434
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,840
not sure that that counts as
psycho psychiatric disorder.

435
00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:18,480
And we have a fully penetrant
and dominant gene for

436
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,680
Huntington's disease.
But again, I'm not sure that

437
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:28,200
those count as psychiatric
disorders because the primary

438
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:35,760
effect of these of these
conditions is not mental.

439
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,680
The mental is secondary.
The effect, the mental effect is

440
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,840
secondary.
The primary effect is physical.

441
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:47,800
And we also see that for some
reason, which who knows why

442
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,560
therapy works.
Therapy works to some extent in

443
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,960
some disorders.
Sometimes it works along with

444
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:03,760
other things with medication,
but therapy seems to work or and

445
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,120
when I say to work, I mean to
help people because that's as

446
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:11,000
doctors, psychiatrists want to
understand certain things, but

447
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,280
they also want to help people
and it would be useless if we

448
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:19,440
didn't help people.
In metaphysical terms, this is a

449
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,840
suggestion for something called
mental causation or downward

450
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,200
causation, right?
It goes from the both, from the

451
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,400
mental to the physical.
This is something which of

452
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,760
course physicalist would not
accept.

453
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:40,800
Now let's go to metaphysics.
As we have materialism in the

454
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,360
philosophy of mind and
physicalism the philosophy of

455
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:48,320
mind, we have substance
metaphysics.

456
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,960
Now substance metaphysics.
Well, the the idea of a

457
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,600
substance is a very difficult
idea to print down and many

458
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,480
people have very different
ideas.

459
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,000
But when we talk they didn't
substitute.

460
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,800
The physics is that the world is
made-up of substances and the

461
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:10,000
basic what is a substance is a
substance is an entity that has

462
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:16,680
a natural unity whose properties
that persist through changes in

463
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:21,240
its properties and is to some
extent independent of other

464
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,800
things.
So the concept of independent

465
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,560
unity, stability and endurance
are basic.

466
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,800
So I started would say that an
Organism is a substance.

467
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,680
The card would say that we have
a mental substance and a

468
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,800
physical substance.
A physical substance is extended

469
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:50,920
and the mental substance is a
thinks and this is the the

470
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,960
metaphysical substratum that has
dominated western thinking.

471
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,480
We start with Aristotle's
essentialism, then in the 17th

472
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:03,480
century we have atomism, and
then we gradually go move

473
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,560
towards a constant attempt to
reduce things to their

474
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,320
constituents, parts and relation
and substance metaphysics.

475
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,760
The basis of substance of the
physics is stasis, the lack of

476
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,600
change in systems.
Remember Plato couldn't explain

477
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,800
change.
OK, it comes full circus.

478
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,440
Now there's an there's an
alternative to substance

479
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,280
metaphysics and that is process
metaphysics.

480
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,040
So process metaphysics offers a
completely different way of

481
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,600
understanding the world.
So the world app is not made of

482
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,600
substances, it's not made of
things.

483
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,600
It's made of processes,
intertwining processes that

484
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:49,160
exist at different time scale.
And of course you'll say, but

485
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,920
what do you mean?
I see things, I see objects, I

486
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,440
see flowers and mountains and
the the desks.

487
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:01,960
And so a process metaphysics
would say, yes, of course, but

488
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,720
the stability you experience in
the world is the result of

489
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,200
processes in dynamic
interaction.

490
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,480
And some processes work in a
very large time scale and some

491
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,240
processes work in a very short
time scale.

492
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:20,880
So a mountain is a process
stabilize at the very high time

493
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:25,560
scale, a human Organism A
relatively high scale as opposed

494
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:34,360
to cell renewal in our bodies or
the life cycle of a bat shorter

495
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,920
time frames.
Now, if you see why am I saying

496
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:45,600
all this, If you see the world
as being made-up of processes,

497
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,440
there are certain things that
become more difficult to

498
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,920
sustain.
Now a substance with the physics

499
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,880
doesn't necessarily lead to
materialism, doesn't necessarily

500
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,880
lead to physicalism
reductionism.

501
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,760
No, it doesn't entail them.
But it's easy to get into that

502
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:07,200
kind of mode of thought when you
think in terms of processes.

503
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,880
There are certain things that do
not come so natural.

504
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,000
So one of the things that
doesn't come naturally is

505
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,480
reductionism.
Another thing that doesn't come

506
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,960
naturally is essentialism.
And this relates to a question

507
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:26,960
of mental disorders because a
process, think of a river, it's

508
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,720
like water flowing in a river.
Processes don't have hard

509
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,000
boundaries.
They flow into each other, they

510
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,320
intertwine. 1 sustains the
other.

511
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,640
You know, the the heart is
sustained by the parts, but the

512
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,240
heart also within an Organism
sustain the parts that make it

513
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:47,400
up.
So, so we don't really have a

514
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,800
hierarchical level of reality.
The world is not made-up in

515
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,720
neatly neat levels.
And this is something that we

516
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,320
see constantly in human
thinking.

517
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:04,160
We people like boxes because we
can manage boxes, but when we

518
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,000
let go of our assumptions and we
look at the world, boxes are are

519
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,080
really there.
So if you don't have levels, the

520
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,000
the idea in physicalism and
materialism in many ways is that

521
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,680
there are levels of reality and
the higher levels are determined

522
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,640
completely by the lower levels.
If you don't have these levels,

523
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,760
then the reductionist way of
thinking becomes very difficult

524
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,080
to sustain.
There are no higher levels,

525
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,920
higher and lower levels.
It's all interconnected.

526
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,440
And the other thing with, of
course, with the physics is that

527
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,720
it allows for different kinds of
causation.

528
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,840
It's not only from the bottom
up, it's not only from the small

529
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,520
to the big.
It allows for downward

530
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,880
causation, mental causation,
mere logical organizational

531
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,520
causation.
Because you see that you start

532
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,720
thinking the world as a place of
middle sized stable objects and

533
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:09,159
you start seeing a world made-up
of processes or which are in

534
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:14,080
dynamic and continuous
interaction and and causation

535
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,960
becomes more directional.
Yeah, so.

536
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,760
Beautiful, beautifully put.
And I think it's what I find

537
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,639
very fascinating is how when you
see things from that lens, a lot

538
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:29,920
of people tend to think of that.
Even process philosophy, I see a

539
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,679
lot of scientists when they talk
about it, seeing it as a as, as

540
00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:35,360
unscientific.
But if you think about it, it's

541
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,159
a lot more it, it takes
reductionism to another level in

542
00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:41,960
a sense, because you've reduced
everything.

543
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:44,760
So even those categories that
you've labeled, you've actually

544
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,760
taken it further to actually
break those down into more

545
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,400
processes and even more details.
So it's actually even more of a

546
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,239
great scientific tool in that
sense.

547
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:55,840
Yes.
I mean, I don't think

548
00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,400
reductionism is itself bad in
itself, and I don't think that

549
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,920
reductive explanation should
disappear even in the original

550
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:09,040
sense of of going to the bottom.
I just think we these shouldn't

551
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,120
exhaust all explanations.
And it did.

552
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:15,080
Yeah, it's, it's still a great
tool and it helps us to picture

553
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:16,400
things and imagine what's going
on.

554
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,840
But ultimately it's still
something you need to think

555
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,560
about it.
There's something beyond this

556
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,640
that's still occurring and it's
a process we need to, we're yet

557
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,080
to, we're yet to understand
perhaps.

558
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,400
But the reason why I asked that
first question was to actually

559
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,960
get to the next one, which was,
is the concept of a disorder

560
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,000
itself a metaphysical
commitment, something about how

561
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,840
the world actually is?
Or is it essentially normative

562
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:44,320
no matter what bringing out the
tough ones today?

563
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,960
Sorry.
It's just I'm super excited to

564
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,840
talk to someone who's worked in
the same in the same.

565
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:55,960
Yes, because, but you.
But you're asking a person who

566
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:01,920
very really has huge difficulty
committing to an answer with

567
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,800
certainty.
I think that's still a great way

568
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,240
to approach the world because it
shows how much you're putting

569
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:10,800
thought into every answer and
then that you're not solely

570
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,000
fixated on a on a conclusion
because you're open to actually

571
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,800
exploring these ideas.
So I think that's great.

572
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:18,880
Yes, but I still have to give an
answer.

573
00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:24,600
Yeah, that's true.
So the question is whether it's

574
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,040
something completely normative
or whether.

575
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,040
Whether the whether a disorder
is itself a metaphysical

576
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:36,600
commitment, or whether it's
essentially normative.

577
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,240
Look, it depends on.
I think this goes back to the

578
00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:45,600
question of what is fundamental
in the world.

579
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,600
If matter is fundamental,
indeed, I would say that then

580
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,280
it's more of a normative
commitment.

581
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,600
But if there are other kind of
fundamental entities or whatever

582
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,520
you want to call them, they're
not really entities, yes.

583
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,760
Then I'm not sure that it would
be purely normative, a way of

584
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,560
not answering the question.
But it it depends what the

585
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,440
metaphysical structure of the
world is, and I'm not sure what

586
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,680
the metaphysical structure of
the world is.

587
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,600
Well, in at the moment when we
look at cognitive sciences, so

588
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,640
there's a growing emphasis on
things like predictive

589
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,920
processing.
You've got models of mind as the

590
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,680
as a model become quite a big
hypothesis that everyone's

591
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,920
working with.
How compatible is this view with

592
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,840
your own philosophical view of
consciousness?

593
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:44,320
I think the the predictive
processing does get close.

594
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:50,400
It seems to get things close
enough because first of all, it

595
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:55,160
moves away from the idea that
consciousness is a window to the

596
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:59,920
world.
And I think that's probably

597
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:01,960
wrong.
As you see, everything is

598
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:11,600
probably or possibly or yes, but
the modeling predictive

599
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,920
processing is a best guess
model.

600
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,640
So it's a model that is
constantly being updated based

601
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,160
on sensory input.
So if you have a glitch, you fix

602
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,160
it.
Now it remains, I think it

603
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:30,880
remains, it still remains too
internalist for me.

604
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,960
It's still too much in the
brain.

605
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,880
I I think like most theories, I
think there are some good

606
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:40,400
intuitions.
And then when you try to

607
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:45,680
formulate the theory itself, you
lose part of the plausibility.

608
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,840
But you're still trying to pin
down what I think consciousness

609
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,120
is and.
Look, I mean, ultimately that's

610
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,720
always, that's always at the
forefront of any conversation on

611
00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:00,080
this show.
That's always at the forefront

612
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,680
where we'll try to get it out of
you before the end of the

613
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:07,160
episode.
It's I think I'll get I'll get

614
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,320
somewhere towards the end.
You just have to keep pushing it

615
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:11,880
and hopefully you get a catch at
some point.

616
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:17,200
Given your interest, Ellie, in
meta philosophy, what is

617
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,840
philosophy actually doing when
it studies consciousness?

618
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,920
Would you say it's discovering
truths, building conceptual

619
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,640
models, critiquing science, or
something more existential

620
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:34,160
perhaps?
I think a bit of everything, a

621
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:39,640
bit of all, all of the above.
Philosophers who study

622
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,400
consciousness, of course try to
understand the phenomenon.

623
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,240
Usually they, they try to
understand it as a natural

624
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:48,200
phenomenon.
Not necessarily, not always, but

625
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,080
yes.
And part of the, and I think you

626
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:56,360
can do philosophy at least with,
on, on certain subjects without

627
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:04,000
being informed about science and
in discussion with what science

628
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,560
says.
And when a philosopher does

629
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:11,720
that, invariably I think they
will criticise the conceptual

630
00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:15,560
foundations of science.
So I think the work is very much

631
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,440
conceptual.
But here we we are opening the

632
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,840
question of what the relation
between science and philosophy

633
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,280
is, which I can talk about.
But yeah.

634
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:29,320
I think, yeah, go go into it if
you'd like.

635
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,320
OK, because I think this is
something that's very often

636
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:41,600
passed over very superficially,
but it it's important to get

637
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:43,480
certain anxiety.
So, OK, so science and

638
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,000
philosophy have the same aim and
the same.

639
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,920
And the aim is of course to
understand the world and

640
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:53,200
ourselves and the.
And I suppose we should also say

641
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,800
that the word science comes from
the word.

642
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:01,320
I don't know if I'm saying this
correctly in the Latin word

643
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:06,920
scampia, which means knowledge,
and the the Latin verb skira,

644
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,000
which is to know.
So Collingwood gives a good

645
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,640
definition.
He says, look, when the when we

646
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:18,040
talk about science, what we are
talking about is a body of

647
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,640
orderly or systematic thinking
about a specific subject matter.

648
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:27,640
And this is the way we would the
meaning of science that we we

649
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,760
use when we say philosophy is a
science or mathematics is a

650
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,440
science or history is a science.
It's a bit of an honorific term.

651
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,720
So any because in this sense,
any discipline that we pursue

652
00:41:41,720 --> 00:41:44,440
rigorously and with certain
methodological standards is

653
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,520
science.
But then when we contrast

654
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,440
philosophy with science and when
we ask what the relationship is,

655
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,960
that's not the kind of science
we're talking about.

656
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:54,840
We're talking about something
much narrower.

657
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,840
We're talking about the
empirical sciences.

658
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,240
So and it's Collingwood
interestingly says that this is

659
00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:03,720
a slang use of the word science.
So it's a set of disciplines

660
00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:07,240
that follows certain methods
that cover truth about the

661
00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:10,520
world.
Now, so the general aim is to

662
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,720
say is the same, but science
aims more.

663
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,600
It took wants to construct a
body of facts about the world,

664
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,800
whereas philosophy aims at
conceptual clarity.

665
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,800
Think about in how many
different ways we talk about

666
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,560
consciousness in a more general
understanding of things, and

667
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,040
settlers says that the this I
think this is the best that

668
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,720
attempt to explain what
philosophy is, that the aim of

669
00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:41,440
philosophy is to understand how
things in the broadest possible

670
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,120
sense of the word hang together
in the broadest possible sense

671
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,080
of the world.
So science would study quarks

672
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:52,200
and neurons and gluons and, and
the chemical elements and the

673
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,000
cells, let's say.
But philosophy will ask, OK,

674
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:01,040
what's the relation between
neurons and gluons with stamp

675
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:08,840
collecting or paying a bill or
our obligations to animals and

676
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,160
so on.
So philosophy is much more

677
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,800
general, ask much more
fundamental questions, and these

678
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:16,880
do not fall within the purview
of science.

679
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,000
And there's also seems to be a
lot of disagreement among

680
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:29,160
philosophers, which is not it's
not the same in science, even

681
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,360
though there's a lot more
disagreement in science than

682
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:35,200
people tend to believe.
So anyway, so when we talk about

683
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,440
what the relationship between
science and philosophy is, I

684
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,560
think there are three questions
we have to distinguish.

685
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,680
So one is, would there be
science without philosophy as we

686
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,600
know it today?
And I think the answer to that

687
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:51,400
is no, but that's a contingent
historical fact because science

688
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,160
appears in the 16th century when
people start to reject the

689
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,920
Platonism and Aristotelianism
and theology as ways of knowing

690
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:01,680
about the world.
And then during the

691
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:07,480
Enlightenment, philosophy,
philosophers and scientists were

692
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:12,400
very much in the in dialogue,
the card, Leibnitz, Spinoza,

693
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:17,360
people like that.
Locke contributed to this new

694
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:21,000
body of knowledge and offered
metaphysical foundations and a

695
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,080
framework for it.
And then after the 17th century,

696
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,200
we start, you know, with Galileo
who's come along, He has his

697
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,680
mathematical approach, we have
the experimental method.

698
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,120
And slowly these two, science
and metaphysics start to

699
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,880
separate.
But this is very, this happens

700
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,560
very slowly.
And it's important to remember

701
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,440
that until the beginning of the
20th century, it was common in

702
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,200
England for physicists to call
themselves natural philosophers.

703
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:53,120
And Max Bourne's position at
Edinburgh was Tate professor of

704
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,840
natural philosopher.
So I think history, OK,

705
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,520
historically science wouldn't
exist without philosophy.

706
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,320
But again, this is a
philosophical historical

707
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,920
contingency, I suppose.
Now the, the, the other

708
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,920
question, the intermediate
question is, is the practice of

709
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,720
science, this thing from the
parts of philosophy?

710
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,800
And I think the answer to that
is absolutely yes.

711
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,800
People don't like to hear it.
But yes, I mean, there are

712
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,520
philosophy scientists who are
philosophically inclined.

713
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,560
There are philosophers who have
studied, who study philosophy

714
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:33,360
and who discuss philosophical
issues like Seth Lloyd at MIT or

715
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:41,120
Robert Spekins at the Perimeter
Institute of Theoretical Physics

716
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:45,520
in Canada.
And of course, Einstein read a

717
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,520
lot of philosophy.
Max Borne in Algar lecture in

718
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,920
1938 was called some
philosophical problems, I think

719
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,880
in modern physics.
And Schrodinger, who's my

720
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:02,000
favorite, who actually says in
in in 1956 in what is life?

721
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,240
He says explicitly, he says the
origins of modern science,

722
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,480
science line philosophical in
Western philosophy.

723
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,560
And if you don't understand
Western philosophy, you won't

724
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,800
understand modern science.
And he also says something which

725
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,000
I find amazing.
He says features.

726
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,480
No scientist I, I, but I know
would say this.

727
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,960
He says features of today's
scientific image are

728
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,400
historically produced and not
logically necessitated.

729
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,840
So there are scientists who
understand philosophy, who

730
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,360
tackle philosophical questions,
but generally most scientists

731
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,120
don't.
And those and often most of them

732
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:44,240
or those who do do it badly,
very good scientists, very bad

733
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:49,120
philosophers, fact, I mean they
don't even often know what to

734
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:53,240
talk about.
But then they more the question,

735
00:46:53,240 --> 00:46:56,320
and I think here is where the
real question lies is can there

736
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,040
be science without philosophical
thinking in its practice?

737
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:06,920
And I think that though academic
philosophy and, you know, the

738
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:12,120
details of what we do are not
necessary, but the general kind

739
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,280
of thinking, which is
philosophical, needs to be part

740
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,400
of science.
And here then it also says that

741
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,920
there's no philosophy.
There's no science without

742
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,840
philosophy.
There's only science that

743
00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:27,160
carries its philosophical
baggage without examination.

744
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:32,120
And Kuhn also says that during
paradigm shifts, scientists tell

745
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:37,160
the philosophers to unpuzzle to
solve the puzzles.

746
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,320
Why?
Because you are looking at the

747
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:45,880
assumptions you're making to
weaken the whole of tradition on

748
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,440
the mind.
So it's always a scientist who

749
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,680
are at different tiers of
science, I think, who are more

750
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:55,440
philosophically inclined and
better at philosophy.

751
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,360
So one of the things that I
think philosophers studying

752
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:03,080
science consciousness to is
looking for these assumptions.

753
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,960
This is the critical work, the
conceptual work that I think is

754
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,760
necessary in our discussion,
especially in a field that so

755
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:13,160
muddy as consciousness.
I mean, we don't know what

756
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:14,760
consciousness is.
We can't agree on that.

757
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,480
We don't know who's conscious or
what kinds of being could be

758
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:19,800
conscious.
We don't know.

759
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:23,000
We don't agree on how we should
study consciousness.

760
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:29,560
So some philosophical work needs
to be done.

761
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:36,400
So I think.
So to wrap this up, I think that

762
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,040
when you ask what is the
relation between science and

763
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,440
philosophy, you already have
assumptions belong to this

764
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,840
question.
And one of the assumptions is

765
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:52,400
that you have a view of science
that is sort of artificial, that

766
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,560
science deals.
Only it's someone in the lab

767
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:02,840
with his hands in the mud who
tries to express theories in a

768
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,320
functional language.
Not interested in Parsimoni, not

769
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,760
interested in unification of
theories, not interested in the

770
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,040
symmetry and things like that.
And that's true of many

771
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:18,800
scientists, but not all.
And there are parts of science

772
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,560
and philosophy that you cannot
tell apart.

773
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:23,680
I think there's a continuity to
science and philosophy, like

774
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:25,360
there's a continuity of math and
physics.

775
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,440
Most science is science and most
philosophy is clearly

776
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:30,800
philosophy.
But there are parts of both

777
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,760
where you can't really make a
distinction between the two

778
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:39,120
except in pragmatic terms.
There's a pragmatic distinction

779
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:44,000
and the marginal connections,
yes.

780
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:48,200
So I think ultimately we have to
the the disciplines have to

781
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:53,480
inform each other and and I
think that the that's I suspect

782
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,280
that that's the only way that we
will managed to make the leap

783
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,960
and understand something more
metaphysical about

784
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,360
consciousness.
There's something missing here.

785
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,880
Yeah, in in keeping with what
you what you're talking about

786
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:08,920
now and something you said
earlier regarding the

787
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:13,000
naturalization of philosophy of
mind, Should philosophy of mind

788
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,640
be naturalized, fully integrated
with sciences or does that risk

789
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,360
losing the phenomena we're
trying to understand in the

790
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:26,120
first place?
Well, it depends what you mean

791
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:30,680
by naturalism, because I mean,
what do you mean?

792
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,680
There's a sense in which
naturalism means that I don't

793
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,400
believe in anything
supernatural, God forbid, right?

794
00:50:37,240 --> 00:50:41,200
But but that's a whole question.
What does supernatural mean?

795
00:50:41,240 --> 00:50:45,280
So I can break this down for you
too, and we can try and figure

796
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:46,200
this out together.
Let's.

797
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:52,000
Do it.
OK, so at least in philosophy

798
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,920
there are two ways of
understanding naturalism. 1 is

799
00:50:56,240 --> 00:50:59,720
as a methodological
recommendation, like an

800
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,360
epistemological approach.
So you say that genuine

801
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:04,960
knowledge can only come from the
sciences.

802
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,720
That's it.
That's the only path to truth or

803
00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:12,480
to knowledge anyway.
And again, here we can quote

804
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,200
Sellers.
He says in the dimension of

805
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:20,320
describing the world, science is
the measure of all things, of

806
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:25,280
everything that of what is, that
it is and of what is not, that

807
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:30,000
it is not a sweeping statement
and which I find quite silly.

808
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:34,960
But anyway, I didn't say that.
So the one is that science is

809
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,800
our only tool for uncovering
truth.

810
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:41,040
And then we have a metaphysical
or ontological claim.

811
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:45,920
So you're a naturalist if you
think that the natural is all

812
00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:49,320
that exists.
And then of course, you can

813
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,400
define naturalism in many
different ways.

814
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:57,320
So John Searle is a biological
naturalist, David Papineau and

815
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,520
Louis Armstrong.
Louis David Armstrong, sorry,

816
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:07,120
are more of physicalists.
But the idea here is that when

817
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,800
we talk about naturalism,
usually we go from.

818
00:52:10,240 --> 00:52:13,200
So naturalism is associated with
scientific understanding.

819
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:18,080
Scientific understanding is
associated with reduction.

820
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,800
So try to figure out what it's
made of, how the relations, how

821
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,240
the parts interact.
Reductionism is associated with

822
00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:30,640
physicalism and materialism, and
so naturalism is reductionism.

823
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:36,440
So to answer your question, if
you think if is that if that's

824
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,800
what you mean, no, the answer is
no, I don't think it's

825
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,640
necessary.
And I'm not the only person who

826
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,920
thinks of course, this, but I
don't think naturalism requires

827
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:51,760
reductionism or physicalism.
I think that what we want, I

828
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:55,920
mean we should reject things
that don't exist, clearly.

829
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,360
And what exists is the real.
And to say that that is

830
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:04,400
exhausted by what science says
there is, makes anything not

831
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:10,120
tackled by science but natural,
which I think is quite an

832
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,280
extraordinary statement.
I mean, even the the the

833
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,520
statement itself, all there is
is what science says there is.

834
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:19,240
It's sort of a metaphysical
statement.

835
00:53:19,240 --> 00:53:24,040
It's not, it's, it's, it's not a
piece of scientific knowledge.

836
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,400
OK.
So it's a regulative principle,

837
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,800
let's say.
And I think the real question to

838
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:34,080
ask here is, is there a, is
there a good reason to think

839
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,400
that we do not understand
something if we have not

840
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,120
understood it in a non mental
way?

841
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,160
So if we only understand it in a
mental way.

842
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:48,600
And I think no, I don't think
that we have been given good

843
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:54,760
enough reasons for that.
Had had we, if we had answers to

844
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:56,960
the questions about
consciousness and if science

845
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,320
could provide them, maybe the
answer would be slightly

846
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:05,200
different.
But now we have these hand

847
00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:06,320
thumping.
What do you call them?

848
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:14,120
Materialists, I say, must be
this way, but there really is no

849
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:18,520
tangible evidence.
So I think that philosophers

850
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:22,160
should listen to scientists, but
they should not necessarily

851
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,120
agree with them.
They should take things into

852
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:31,920
consideration and in the CD
broaden his book The Mind and

853
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:38,040
its place, it's place in nature
City Board was a British

854
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:42,040
emergentist.
He's he he has a beautiful line.

855
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:47,320
He says we tend to confuse the
author of Nature with the editor

856
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:49,520
of Nature.
That's 25 years ago.

857
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:57,040
So we shouldn't confuse the map
with the territory.

858
00:54:57,240 --> 00:55:01,240
The map science can be a map,
but let's not think that this is

859
00:55:01,240 --> 00:55:07,160
identical with what we're trying
to figure out.

860
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:11,800
Well your work in bioethics
often deals with moral status of

861
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,640
animals and extends it to things
like AI.

862
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:18,600
Do non human minds challenge our
assumptions about consciousness

863
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:27,230
more than AI does?
I don't think AI currently

864
00:55:27,870 --> 00:55:30,390
challenges our ideas of
consciousness currently.

865
00:55:30,390 --> 00:55:31,790
Let's go into why I think it
would.

866
00:55:31,790 --> 00:55:35,000
Be good.
Well, I don't think they're

867
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,480
conscious.
NLMS, for instance, are

868
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:39,280
conscious.
They might be one.

869
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,520
No, no, I don't think NLMS will
will be conscious.

870
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:50,520
But I, I, I don't exclude the
possibility that non there there

871
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:57,840
can be creatures, non organic
creatures that could be

872
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:02,400
conscious.
I, I, I surprisingly, I don't

873
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:04,200
think that that's an
impossibility.

874
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,840
It's not the way they are now.
I don't it's, I don't think

875
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:10,760
there's any discussion there.
They might be intelligent right

876
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:19,440
now in certain ways.
But yeah, I, I don't exclude it.

877
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:26,520
Of course, it wouldn't be just a
something in, in behind the

878
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,520
screen.
As I said before, I don't think

879
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:32,600
that the brain, an isolated
brain needs to be conscious.

880
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:38,360
I if we made complex enough
machines that interact with the

881
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:43,200
world, I think eventually it
could happen.

882
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:51,560
I've seen, I've seen Stranger
Things, but well, they, they, I

883
00:56:51,560 --> 00:57:00,200
think that animals, well, one
thing that I, I, I think animals

884
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:04,360
show us is that consciousness
comes, can come in many

885
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:06,400
different forms.
And I think this is very

886
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:08,200
important to remember.
And I think this is what

887
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:12,520
psychedelics also do, that we
have this idea of what

888
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:19,440
consciousness is.
But consciousness arises when

889
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:21,040
many different things come
together.

890
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,160
And it's not just an on off.
It's not like I don't think

891
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:26,600
consciousness never existed.
And all of a sudden humans

892
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:32,480
appeared and there was light.
I think consciousness and

893
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,000
conclusion is an ongoing process
of sense making in your

894
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:40,800
interaction with the world.
And it, I think it you see, I'm

895
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:48,880
getting it emerges from from the
complex interaction of a brain

896
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:57,080
senses, the evolutionary path of
an Organism and the kind of life

897
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:04,080
they have evolved to live.
Yes.

898
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:09,400
So I mean first of all the
senses, a species will have

899
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:15,800
experiences that come through
the the senses it uses, it uses

900
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:19,200
most in its interaction with the
world and and that of course

901
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:26,400
will specify the kind of
information the brain is tends

902
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:32,040
to prioritise.
So birds, some birds have very

903
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:37,560
rich visual worlds or dogs have
a very detailed olfactory world

904
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:41,840
that must have an effect in
their phenomenology, how they

905
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:44,800
experience the world.
Then there's a brain structure.

906
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:49,440
We have a very layered
neocortex.

907
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:53,720
So we we have the ability to be
flexible in our thinking.

908
00:58:54,440 --> 00:59:00,360
You'd be surprised to learn that
we have a wide range of emotions

909
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:05,160
we can plan ahead.
Birds, on the other hand, some

910
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:08,800
birds have a very different
brain structure, but they have a

911
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:14,880
very complex pallium.
So again, they have some birds

912
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:20,240
exhibit problem solving
abilities, tool use, but the

913
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:24,880
brain structure you have and the
senses you have also affect what

914
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,600
you experience as affordances in
the world, right?

915
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:30,360
How you can use the word.
And then of course, we have

916
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:36,120
animals and humans.
Well, human animals, different

917
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:39,080
kinds of animals, including
humans, have very different

918
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,040
cognitive capacities.
So I think that all of these

919
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:47,640
things change how you experience
the world.

920
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:51,400
And I think that phenomenology
comes into consciousness.

921
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:55,120
And I think if you start
observing animals and if you

922
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:59,760
start taking animals seriously
and you start.

923
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,600
Not thinking that only we are
conscious and they are not.

924
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,360
But if you start thinking, OK,
they're conscious, what is their

925
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:12,440
consciousness like?
You open up your thinking about

926
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,120
consciousness in ways that is
essential in the same way that

927
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:20,480
psychedelics do the same.
And, and for AI, of course, we

928
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:22,840
always have to distinguish
intelligence from consciousness.

929
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:25,920
Sometimes you have consciousness
without intelligence somehow.

930
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,720
Sometimes you can have
intelligence without

931
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:33,360
consciousness, yeah.
Yeah, I think it takes us back

932
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:35,200
to the infamous, what is it like
to be a bet?

933
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:39,600
So it's it's one of these
fundamental questions.

934
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:42,320
I mean, given your experience in
cognitive science, psychiatry,

935
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:46,720
do you think that generally
consciousness research needs to

936
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:49,520
incorporate subjective reports
more more serious?

937
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:52,400
Yeah.
And that we rely too heavily on

938
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:56,560
third person data.
Yes, absolutely.

939
01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:00,040
And then how can we use that
information to then approach

940
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:05,360
other species knowing that we
lack this inherent of bullets to

941
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:08,040
understand their subjective
reports?

942
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,560
That's a that's a very good
question and I was thinking

943
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:19,200
about it this morning.
I don't know that's ethologists

944
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:23,800
seem and other scientists that
deal with animals seem to have

945
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:28,840
methods of understanding animals
in ways that I don't even I, I

946
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:31,520
should get into this research
and understand how they do it,

947
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:34,800
But how do they know, for
instance, that bees have the

948
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:39,720
ability to to solve basic
mathematical problems?

949
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:43,520
How do you figure that out?
I don't know.

950
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:47,920
I, I this is, this is beyond me,
but hopeful.

951
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:52,120
Thankfully, there are people who
know much more about that than

952
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:53,560
me.
Yeah, I think that that would be

953
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:56,120
it's, it's really exciting.
I think just I think it was

954
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:59,240
about two days ago I saw
something about I think it might

955
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:03,880
have been orcas or or dolphins.
But like every few months you're

956
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,480
noticing new breakthroughs in
the way they communicate and,

957
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:08,960
and we're figuring these things
out and, and the, some of the

958
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:13,240
tools in the, the method, the,
the, the ways that they do this,

959
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:14,960
It's incredible.
Like when you see what some

960
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:17,400
scientists are capable of doing
when they put their heart and

961
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:19,240
soul into something and they're
really passionate about a

962
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:21,720
project, then you see true
creativity come out.

963
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:23,920
And it's, it's particularly, I
find in those types of

964
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,840
experiments with animals where
that passion brings out a

965
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:29,440
creativity that's like, like
nothing I've ever seen before.

966
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:31,160
That is true.
That is true.

967
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:36,440
Yeah, I you're right.
I forgot to ask you this

968
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:38,920
earlier, but how do you
distinguish between

969
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:41,120
consciousness, self with an
agency?

970
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:58,080
Consciousness, self, agency.
I'm not quite sure about agency

971
01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:01,120
and I'm not quite sure about
consciousness.

972
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:03,520
I was because again, I had this
discussion the other day.

973
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:10,880
I said I, when I think of
consciousness, I, there are

974
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:16,120
parts of it that the, the way I,
I think about it goes close to

975
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:21,880
the global workspace theory that
so consciousness is a phenomenal

976
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:26,000
world that this, these, these
experiences we have that we are

977
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:28,520
all very intimately connected
to.

978
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:30,920
We all know what we're talking
about when we say that I have

979
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:36,360
certain emotions, I have certain
fears, certain sensations and so

980
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:42,720
on.
So it's that where that, but I

981
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,920
think axis, you also need to
incorporate axis consciousness

982
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:48,960
to that.
So you also need to incorporate

983
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:53,200
the idea that these things are
available to you to

984
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,680
introspection and that and I
know that there are limits to

985
01:03:56,680 --> 01:04:01,640
this train of thought and that
you can also use them

986
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:09,200
introspectively to develop more
feelings, more beliefs, more

987
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:10,720
whatever it is you're talking
about.

988
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:21,920
The sense of self also requires
the limitation between you and

989
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:28,960
the other person.
I think there are I and I think

990
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:35,400
consciousness and the self in
humans a case a sense of self go

991
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,800
hand usually go hand in hand
except in certain pathological

992
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:43,280
conditions.
But I said, but then the

993
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:52,120
question is if they are organ,
if, if they are, if they always

994
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:53,720
go together, what do we do with
animals?

995
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:56,360
Do we want to say that the
animals have a sense of self?

996
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:05,680
I And to that I would say that
I, of course, I can't exclude

997
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:08,240
it.
I don't, I, I don't know how to

998
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:10,960
give you necessary and
sufficient conditions for each

999
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:15,080
one of these things.
I don't think agency necessarily

1000
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:19,920
comes with consciousness or a
sense of self, but consciousness

1001
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:24,600
and selfhood I think are
intimately connected get not in

1002
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:30,160
ways that cannot come apart.
Well, that's precisely why we've

1003
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:32,200
got the Minded Lodge project
happening is that's why

1004
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:35,440
hopefully we get more answers
about all these questions from

1005
01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:38,240
you all the other great
panellists if you when you think

1006
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:40,520
about the Minded large project.
I suspect we'll have more

1007
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:41,920
questions than answers, by the
way.

1008
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:44,760
Probably, most likely, I think
that's that's probably the goal

1009
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:47,320
as well.
So just to open up the open up

1010
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:49,680
this platform, try and bring
together all these different

1011
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:52,440
metaphysical frameworks.
Do you see convergence on the

1012
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:57,720
horizon, or are these views all
ultimately just unbridgeable?

1013
01:05:58,000 --> 01:05:59,320
You mean theories of
consciousness?

1014
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:03,480
All these different metaphysical
frameworks, do you see a

1015
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:06,080
convergence on the horizon?
No, I don't.

1016
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:11,280
Yes.
As I said, I think that when,

1017
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:14,920
and it's very difficult for me
to talk about it because it's,

1018
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:17,720
it's not my, my thought is not
very specific on this.

1019
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:22,040
I, I have a sense that in order
to solve this puzzle, something

1020
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:25,720
is missing and I don't.
And once that is, I think the,

1021
01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:31,720
the field of play will change
completely.

1022
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:38,200
And I think we're going to look
back at today the way we were

1023
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:41,240
looking at, I don't know, we
thought that ancient Greeks

1024
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:44,640
thought about the physical world
almost.

1025
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:48,640
Like an an ancient pause like at
the in vital almost the way we

1026
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:50,800
perceive that today.
Exactly.

1027
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:55,680
Yes, I think I, I think there's,
there's I, I even have

1028
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:58,960
difficulty expressing it because
I, I don't know what it's going

1029
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:05,200
to be and I do to return because
I, I talked about emergence

1030
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:07,040
before.
So one thing that pulls me is

1031
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:11,600
the idea that, you know, it's
consciousness is an emergent

1032
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:13,320
feature of the world.
I don't have a problem with

1033
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:15,360
emergentism, even strong
emergentism.

1034
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:22,160
I know people react to it a lot,
but I don't I, I think the

1035
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:25,280
problems that I'd identified
with it are not problems that

1036
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:26,680
are not shared by other
theories.

1037
01:07:28,160 --> 01:07:34,840
But I also have a strong pull
towards the fundamentality that

1038
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:42,800
you asked me before.
I, I, I, but the, I don't think

1039
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:48,480
consciousness and matter are two
different fundamental things.

1040
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:50,520
I think they are somehow the
same.

1041
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:56,200
And I know that people have said
this before, but none of the

1042
01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:59,080
explanations given for this make
sense.

1043
01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:01,240
I mean, there's something we're
missing, and it might.

1044
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:05,720
People will hate me for saying
this, my colleagues, but it

1045
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:07,920
might be a scientific
breakthrough.

1046
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:09,760
Yeah.
Do you think that that

1047
01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:15,560
fundamentality is actually
almost a teleological purpose

1048
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:18,800
for consciousness in a sense or
like this is this phenomenon a

1049
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:21,600
process that we're trying to get
to in a sense or not really?

1050
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:28,479
Not really.
I mean, I don't, Yeah, I don't

1051
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:31,840
think, I don't think in that
way, No, no.

1052
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:34,760
I think it's even better that
you saying this because it

1053
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:37,399
highlights the diversity of
thought that we're going to have

1054
01:08:37,399 --> 01:08:39,120
at this conference.
And that's exactly the point.

1055
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:42,279
So I think it's perfect that you
are saying that because at some

1056
01:08:42,279 --> 01:08:45,000
point when I asked Peter,
Andrew, anyone else, Matt about

1057
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:47,359
this, it's going to be good to
actually have these discussions.

1058
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:49,240
And I'm chatting to John and
Jared soon.

1059
01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:50,760
So we're going to be having a
nice group chat.

1060
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:52,240
It will be OK, I was going to
ask.

1061
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:54,600
You so it's it's going to be
exciting I think that this

1062
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:58,160
project has so much potential to
be something so great and I'm

1063
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:00,800
super excited to be there
looking ahead if you look at the

1064
01:09:00,800 --> 01:09:05,080
mind at large project, what do
you foresee in the next three

1065
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:07,000
years so I know you're looking
for that breakthrough that we

1066
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:10,720
need to make but.
Yes, I don't expect it to happen

1067
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:13,319
for at the minor large
conferences I think we're going

1068
01:09:13,319 --> 01:09:17,920
to have a lot of fun and
interesting ideas and become

1069
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:20,439
more wise, but I don't think
we'll get the answer.

1070
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:23,160
But anyway, so the question was.
But in general, so in general,

1071
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:25,359
your thoughts on the Minded
Lodge project, what excites you

1072
01:09:25,359 --> 01:09:27,160
most about this?
What are you most looking

1073
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:30,479
forward to and and looking
ahead, what what can the viewers

1074
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:34,720
expect from this?
Well, for me personally, because

1075
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:38,600
as I said, I am, I think I am
the most conservative of the

1076
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:45,080
bunch in many ways.
And, and what has attracted me

1077
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:48,120
to this is first, my curiosity
for thinking that is so

1078
01:09:48,120 --> 01:09:52,880
different from mine.
And, and I, I look forward to

1079
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:55,880
being challenged.
I want people to challenge my

1080
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:59,640
assumptions because, you know,
you kind of stick with those.

1081
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:03,040
And I'm looking, really looking
forward to it because the, I

1082
01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:05,000
mean, generally the easiest
thing to do when somebody

1083
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:08,160
disagrees is dismiss them as not
understanding or, you know,

1084
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:12,200
they're stupid.
But then if you put yourself

1085
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:17,200
among people who are smart
people, who are educated, people

1086
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:19,920
who know what they're talking
about, it's not, you know, a

1087
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:24,600
conversation over beer, then you
really have to take things

1088
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:26,280
seriously.
So you really have to think, how

1089
01:10:26,280 --> 01:10:30,920
can somebody think that?
So I want to see for me that's

1090
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:35,200
very important and maybe
there'll be something there for

1091
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:40,120
me to learn.
What I hope will happen

1092
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:48,160
generally is I think the, I, I
think that even though the

1093
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:50,800
default view of people is very
materialistic and I see it in my

1094
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:55,000
students, you know, you ask them
and immediately they'll say it's

1095
01:10:55,000 --> 01:11:00,920
all, it's all matter.
But they don't really believe

1096
01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:04,600
that because when we try and
break it down, they all, they,

1097
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:06,840
they, they don't want to say
soul.

1098
01:11:07,480 --> 01:11:09,720
They get stay away from the word
soul.

1099
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:15,440
But then they talk about
something spiritual up there.

1100
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:22,120
So I think people do have this
need and I, and I don't mean

1101
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:24,640
just a psychological need.
I think there's something there

1102
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:27,120
that they're not really
convinced about it.

1103
01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:33,600
So I think I want, I, what I
hope this project will do is

1104
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:36,040
allow people to have these
thoughts and allow people to

1105
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:37,800
entertain them.
And then if you allow these

1106
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:41,440
things, if you allow space for
these things, then one day a new

1107
01:11:41,440 --> 01:11:44,160
hypothesis might come.
Then, you know, my students who

1108
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:48,800
are rarely our philosophy
majors, when he's in the lab,

1109
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:52,040
will allow himself to entertain
an idea without thinking.

1110
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:55,160
Oh, this is silly, because
there's a lot of gatekeeping in

1111
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:57,720
science and in philosophy.
You, you know, you just touched

1112
01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:01,000
on something very important
because I often talk about this,

1113
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:04,920
the fact that I mean, we think
that materialism or this monist

1114
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:06,960
view of reality is what most
people tend to believe.

1115
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:09,240
But when you do the studies, I
think it's, it's almost clear

1116
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:12,480
that most people actually have a
very much dualistic view on, on

1117
01:12:12,480 --> 01:12:13,760
reality.
And what you're touching about

1118
01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:16,560
that soul part is pretty much
that essence that they think is

1119
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:20,440
there, this ethereal immaterial
entity that does exist.

1120
01:12:20,440 --> 01:12:23,280
So for the most part we're
trying to actually it's going to

1121
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:25,840
probably be both trying to
convert more dualists then.

1122
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:29,080
Well, yes, because I think
there's a difference.

1123
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:32,000
Because even, OK, people don't
think about metaphysics, so they

1124
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:35,440
don't have necessarily very
coherent views about things.

1125
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:42,920
But if you ask them about the
soul, many people will say yes,

1126
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:45,840
of course this all exists, you
know, how could it not?

1127
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:48,160
But if you ask them whether the
mind is different from the

1128
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:53,440
brain, there they say no.
And that's something about the

1129
01:12:53,440 --> 01:12:56,600
state that has to do with the
status of science in our

1130
01:12:56,600 --> 01:13:00,600
society.
So it's like 1's more of a

1131
01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:04,560
rational thought and the other
one's more of an intuitive feel

1132
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:06,400
of reality when it comes to the
soul thought.

1133
01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:11,720
Yes, because I mean nobody.
You know, you hear scientists

1134
01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:15,560
say talk about, not scientists,
science reporting.

1135
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:19,200
I suppose dismissing the idea of
a mind or talking about

1136
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:22,000
everything is matter.
But you don't have the same

1137
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:24,080
discussions about the soul
because people don't really

1138
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:28,440
discuss the soul very much in
those contexts.

1139
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:32,120
But I would like, and this is
very strange coming for me.

1140
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:35,920
If you, if my students listen,
hear this, they say, how could

1141
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:40,440
you say this?
Because I'm, I'm one of those

1142
01:13:40,440 --> 01:13:46,160
people who are very, as I said,
cautious about this.

1143
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:50,200
But I think that one of the good
things is that, you know, allow

1144
01:13:50,200 --> 01:13:56,200
people to think this and allow
people to pursue this

1145
01:13:56,480 --> 01:13:59,360
philosophically.
Allow them to because of course,

1146
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:01,520
you know, you're a scientist,
you're a philosopher.

1147
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:04,080
You can't.
There's this idea that, ah, a

1148
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:06,320
scientist or a philosopher
studies whatever they want.

1149
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:08,320
No, of course they don't.
It's job.

1150
01:14:08,480 --> 01:14:10,720
You need funding, you need to
publish.

1151
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:15,920
So you're going to go with the
safe questions, the ones that

1152
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:18,560
are going to give you the
promotion, you're going to give

1153
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:22,240
you funding, right?
And I think this might be very

1154
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:25,320
good for people's careers, but
it's very bad for science and

1155
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:26,400
philosophy.
It's what?

1156
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:28,520
We don't know that.
That, that is a very good point.

1157
01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:30,000
And I think that's something
worth highlighting.

1158
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:32,400
The fact that because this is
such an academic pursuit and

1159
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:34,880
what we're doing here is
actually, so it's going to be so

1160
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:39,640
grounded in academia as well
that it's a great opportunity

1161
01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:41,200
for lots of people.
I mean, as we just we spoke

1162
01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:44,000
about earlier the abstract
submissions, this is a great way

1163
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:48,400
to expose ideas and to explore
this in a much more open minded

1164
01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:51,840
way and not falling trap into
this relativism where you can

1165
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:53,600
just talk about anything.
Obviously, we still want

1166
01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:57,760
rigorous philosophy.
No, we don't want no, definitely

1167
01:14:57,760 --> 01:15:01,200
not everything goes.
We, we, we still remain

1168
01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:02,720
academics, we still remain
philosophers.

1169
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:08,560
And you know that we are the the
most strict reviewers of all,

1170
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:12,560
but but we won't judge the
subject matter.

1171
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:15,320
We we're going to look at the
evidence, the argumentation,

1172
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:17,840
Yeah.
So if you have an idea that's

1173
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:21,240
out there, but you can support
it adequately.

1174
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:24,360
Try it.
The overall goal, I think it's

1175
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:25,920
beautiful.
I think your work's wonderful.

1176
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:28,680
It's it's it's exciting to chat
to you and I'm looking forward

1177
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:31,000
to seeing what you present or
what you what you show us when

1178
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:33,920
we get there.
But yeah, in General Minded

1179
01:15:33,920 --> 01:15:37,960
Lodge project, What are you most
excited about, Ellie?

1180
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:40,240
I, I'm excited about being
challenged.

1181
01:15:40,840 --> 01:15:44,560
I, I, I, I love it when like
you, you know, when people ask

1182
01:15:44,560 --> 01:15:48,560
me questions or bring up an idea
and I feel, I think that can be,

1183
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:51,720
possibly be true.
And then they give me reasons

1184
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:54,400
and I say OK.
Which is.

1185
01:15:55,080 --> 01:15:58,400
Let's see what happens.
I'm also looking forward to it.

1186
01:15:58,400 --> 01:16:01,320
Hopefully our minds both change.
And yeah, I oh.

1187
01:16:01,480 --> 01:16:04,480
Yes, we'll either have no ideas
or get out of there very

1188
01:16:04,480 --> 01:16:07,440
confused.
But either way, I think, I think

1189
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:14,120
being intellectually shaped is
good, and I'm looking forward to

1190
01:16:14,120 --> 01:16:15,520
that.
Yeah, and I think this is the

1191
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:17,880
start of a three-year odyssey
that's hopefully going to

1192
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:19,480
continue for as long as
possible.

1193
01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:21,400
So Hailey, thank you so much for
joining me.

1194
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:22,920
It's been such a pleasure to
have you.

1195
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:25,520
Thank you.
Thank you so much and see you

1196
01:16:25,560 --> 01:16:25,680
soon.