Can Consciousness Access the Future? Precognition, Time, the Transcendent Mind | Julia Mossbridge

1
00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:09,480
Julia, thank you so much for
joining me.

2
00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:10,680
It's a pleasure to host you
today.

3
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,560
Thanks for having me Tavin.
My pleasure, Julia.

4
00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,640
I think let's start off by what
I call the unifying thread in

5
00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,760
this case, because your work
expands across neuroscience,

6
00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,960
time perception, consciousness
studies, AI design, well-being,

7
00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,480
precognition, and even love.
So I think my first question

8
00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,960
would be, what is the conceptual
thread that ties all of this

9
00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,400
together for you?
Is it like a single research

10
00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,760
question?
Is it a single research

11
00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,640
question, a worldview, or a
methodological stance?

12
00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,320
None of those things.
So I had a friend once go to a

13
00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,440
doctor and say, so my foot feels
weird.

14
00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,720
I'm having this strange blood
pressure thing.

15
00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,960
And when I breathe sometimes I
get this weird sort of Crick in

16
00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:58,640
my diaphragm.
And the doctor says I don't

17
00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,000
think any of those are related.
And she says, well, they're

18
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:02,880
related because they're all
happening to me.

19
00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,600
And that's how I feel like
answering that question.

20
00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:13,840
I, I seem to do a thing where
since I was a kid I've been

21
00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,400
following where does my mind
take me?

22
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,400
What am I interested in next?
So I think if there's any

23
00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:28,280
conceptual thread, it's what
wants to be born next out of me,

24
00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:31,520
period.
And I don't have any control

25
00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:36,520
over that.
So I really don't like almost to

26
00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:41,680
the point where I had to spend
years getting over my shame

27
00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,680
about studying something that
the rest of the scientific

28
00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,840
community thought was crazy.
Precognition, the ability to

29
00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,440
predict future events that we
think should be not predictable

30
00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:55,440
because of course you can't look
into the future, but Oh well,

31
00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:01,640
that is what would be studied.
And it's, it's been an

32
00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,160
incredible journey to watch.
You've done so much work within

33
00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,720
the field in such diverse fields
as well, bringing them all

34
00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,440
together in many ways.
In In Transcendent Mind, you

35
00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,000
argue that consciousness may not
be reducible to brain activity.

36
00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,920
How has your thinking progressed
since writing that book and and

37
00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:21,280
what empirical or conceptual
developments have reinforced or

38
00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,720
challenged your position?
Well, to be clear in

39
00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,360
Transcendent Mind, first of all,
I wrote that with Iman Sperusch

40
00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,360
as well.
So we wrote it together and

41
00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,000
blended our voices and and
talked about the ideas a lot.

42
00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:37,480
But I don't think we just said
that that consciousness may not

43
00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,080
be reducible to.
I think you're being kind and

44
00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:41,960
conservative.
We said that there's no way

45
00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,040
consciousness is reducible pride
activity.

46
00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,120
Nothing has changed that stance.
I still think that those

47
00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:55,760
arguments are very clear, but
I've become more aware of the

48
00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:04,520
reality of human capacities
beyond what we would normally

49
00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,080
think of in a materialist
worldview.

50
00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,920
So, so in a materialist world
view, in order for me to

51
00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:14,640
communicate information to you,
I would have to e-mail it, text

52
00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:17,760
it, send a letter.
Maybe I can non verbally do a

53
00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:22,800
little dance, but you'd have to
have some kind of physical.

54
00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:27,360
You need to get input through
any of your five senses to and

55
00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,720
then you need to decode it.
And that is how we would send a

56
00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:36,560
message now that I am working in
the world of autistic non

57
00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:42,160
speakers, apraxic non speakers
who who some of them speak, but

58
00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,400
they don't use speech reliably
as a way to communicate.

59
00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:51,560
Their first language seems to be
telepathy with each other as you

60
00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,400
get to know them with you as a
researcher, I mean, or me as a

61
00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,920
researcher with their parents,
with their teachers.

62
00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:08,120
And it just feels less like, oh,
they have this special, like the

63
00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,200
idea of savant syndrome is that
they, they have this special

64
00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,240
gift because they're deficient
in some way.

65
00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:15,600
And so they have this gift in
another way.

66
00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,560
That's the sort of story of
savant syndrome.

67
00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:21,880
It feels more and more like an
unmasking of something we all

68
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,560
have.
And because they don't have the

69
00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,120
suppression.
And we talked about this in

70
00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:30,600
Transcendent Mind too, this idea
of the filter theory that the,

71
00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,800
the purpose of the brain is
actually to kind of, this isn't

72
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,360
our idea.
This is sort of an old, old

73
00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,960
idea, But it's like the brain
puts us in Plato's cave.

74
00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:44,200
Like we see the shadows on the
wall and we, you know, that

75
00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,440
while we're still staying in the
brain, we can't turn around and

76
00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,360
see that they're animals dressed
up in weird costumes or people

77
00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,120
dressed up in weird costumes or
look like animals.

78
00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:59,360
So I, I feel like the work with
the non speakers is showing me

79
00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:05,520
more and more that the
materialist model of where

80
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,240
everything emerges from the,
from the physical.

81
00:05:10,840 --> 00:05:13,440
I mean, I guess I, it's
preaching to the choir because

82
00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:18,640
I, because it just feels like
instead that, that the physical

83
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,480
is used to reduce that all that
information that could be coming

84
00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,960
in telepathically, if you want
to call it that, or from these

85
00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,320
senses that we don't understand
that aren't the five usual

86
00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:35,200
senses that information, it's
almost infinite.

87
00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:36,760
I mean, it's, it's very
powerful.

88
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,640
So the question becomes less,
wow, how is that happening?

89
00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,040
And more like it's a miracle
that we can function at all,

90
00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,560
given that we have this actual
underlying capacity.

91
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:51,760
And no wonder it has to be
suppressed because, you know, it

92
00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,160
turns out if you know, all the
things that other people are

93
00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:55,760
thinking, it could be very
disturbing.

94
00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,400
And so so everything kind of
flips on its head that the

95
00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,760
material world is is built to
actually help us have a physical

96
00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,760
experience that's same where we
can like get food and sleep and

97
00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,320
stuff.
It, it must be.

98
00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,400
It reminds me of something
William James on said.

99
00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,160
I think it was he.
He refers to children at this

100
00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,080
point, the kids.
And he says it's one blooming,

101
00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:20,880
buzzing.
Buzzing confusion.

102
00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,880
Yes, exactly.
A blooming, buzzing confusion

103
00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:25,800
when the baby's first born and
others.

104
00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:28,480
All this, I love William James,
but all this, all this

105
00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:33,240
information is all over the
place and they're not knowing

106
00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,000
how to hook it up.
They're not knowing how we have

107
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,600
learned, adults have learned to
hook it up together.

108
00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,920
And that's on purpose because
then they could be born into a

109
00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,680
culture and learn how that
culture hooks up the information

110
00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,160
together.
And what's interesting is there

111
00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,840
are many options about how to
hook up that information, you

112
00:06:53,840 --> 00:06:56,560
know, and especially when you
think about how we perceive of

113
00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:02,200
time events in time, we could
hook up information like we have

114
00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,400
in the West where, OK, whatever
you could see right now, we're

115
00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,040
going to call the present.
It's all very, very, very visual

116
00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,520
based.
Even if you could remember it,

117
00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,600
but you can't see it right now.
That's the past.

118
00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,840
And there's this thing called
the future, which is like what

119
00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,280
happens next?
But we only know it's next after

120
00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:26,200
we see it.
That's our story, you know, But

121
00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,760
there are many other stories
about time and how you hook

122
00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:34,000
these things up.
And I think non speakers are

123
00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,560
especially I'm starting to see
that they're hooking up events

124
00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:42,000
in time differently and it's
almost like a cultural thing.

125
00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:52,320
And that's fascinating to me.
I, I think that William James

126
00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,720
had this great insight into what
it means to, he had kind of like

127
00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,280
a God's idea where I don't want
to say like he was like God, but

128
00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:04,320
I mean like he had kind of like
a bird's eye view, like a, like

129
00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:11,000
a 60,000 foot view of what it
means to be a person with a

130
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,560
person's brain and trying to
receive information.

131
00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,200
And, and he had just felt like
he was always trying to

132
00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,280
communicate.
Whatever we're perceiving is

133
00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,000
what our brain is telling us.
It's a story like don't get so

134
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,560
invested in the story.
Like that's just what your brain

135
00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,960
is telling you after years and
years of learning how it's

136
00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,159
supposed to tell you a story,
you know?

137
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,320
And so we but we get invested in
the story anyway because how can

138
00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:38,600
we help it?
That's actually what we're

139
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,000
supposed to do.
So it's really and he gets that

140
00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:43,760
too, you know?
Yeah, he was way ahead of his

141
00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,440
time, I think when it comes to
the mind body problem, when he

142
00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,480
describes how the mind body
problem or consciousness might

143
00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,240
just be something two aspects of
1 underlying reality.

144
00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,520
But, and at this point in your
career, how do you find yourself

145
00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,400
defining something like
consciousness or the mind?

146
00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:09,600
Yeah, such a good question
because there there's a lot of

147
00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,080
I, I said this like 10 years ago
or 15 years ago or something.

148
00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,760
I still believe it, but I feel
like it has no impact.

149
00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:17,840
So I'm just going to say it
again.

150
00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:24,800
It will have no impact, but we
we fetishize consciousness.

151
00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:32,280
We think that we fall for the
trick of the brain.

152
00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,600
We fall for the trick that the
story is, Oh my gosh, I have

153
00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,080
this story and I experienced
this and it's and we fall off.

154
00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,000
It's like almost like experience
addiction.

155
00:09:41,680 --> 00:09:44,640
Like we think that the
experience is the thing that's

156
00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,800
so special.
And what is it that's giving us

157
00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:49,200
this experience?
It's consciousness.

158
00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,200
Well, no, actually the thing
that's giving you the experience

159
00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:58,400
is all the non conscious
processes that go into screening

160
00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,880
out this information, screening
out that information,

161
00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:02,960
determining what information to
hook up with, what other

162
00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,440
information, labeling it all as
the same thing or not the same

163
00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,840
thing.
Discriminating figure from

164
00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:10,280
ground.
I don't care if you're seeing

165
00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,640
versus hearing, you know, and
then offering you a story about,

166
00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,680
OK, here's the movie.
Right, then your conscious mind

167
00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:18,800
is like, I'm watching this
movie.

168
00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,520
Look how amazing I am.
It's like, you didn't make the

169
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:27,880
movie, You're not in the movie,
you didn't write the movie, You

170
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,600
did not edit the movie, you did
not direct the movie.

171
00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,080
But you're like, look how
awesome I am.

172
00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:37,920
I can watch a movie and it's
like, OK, so it's a trick.

173
00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,720
It's a, it's a, it's like we
conflate the ego with the

174
00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,800
conscious mind.
So then when we talk about like

175
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,440
cosmic consciousness, William
James talks about this too, but

176
00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,360
he talks about it in what I
would call the right way.

177
00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,920
He says these are there, these
trees that their roots are

178
00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,880
intermingling under the ground.
There's this cosmic

179
00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:01,160
consciousness of this interwoven
nature of reality of mind.

180
00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,760
That's not conscious, that's not
conscious.

181
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,600
We're not conscious of that in
the neuroscientific sort of

182
00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,960
sense, the sense that defines
consciousness by the thing that

183
00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,560
goes away when you take general
anaesthetic or when you're in

184
00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:17,920
deep sleep.
OK, so that's actually we're

185
00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:22,520
unconscious of that.
But from the universe's point of

186
00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,560
view, that's super conscious.
Like that's, that's what

187
00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:29,080
consciousness is.
That is the the cosmic

188
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,200
consciousness from which we all
derive.

189
00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,360
So that's the neutral modest
part of James, right?

190
00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:42,200
So I feel like we should stop
trying to define consciousness

191
00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:47,560
and just say there's mind and
mind is mind has components that

192
00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:50,520
are unconscious and components
that are conscious, and they

193
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,280
work together to provide the
experience that we have.

194
00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:56,840
And the experience that we have
is a story.

195
00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,320
And it's not really the
important thing, it's the story.

196
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,880
That's fine.
I guess this is a very Buddhist

197
00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,000
approach to like this, sort of
like that's the illusion.

198
00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:07,520
That's good to know the
illusion.

199
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,440
And what's really, really
crucial is this connection, the

200
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,360
awareness of the connection.
I don't necessarily mean that we

201
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,800
have a choice about being aware
of this connection, but I guess

202
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:24,680
I'm being descriptive.
But what ends up mattering to

203
00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:29,640
people in terms of their
well-being is when they have an

204
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,560
awareness, when we have an
awareness of the connection to

205
00:12:32,560 --> 00:12:36,200
the cosmic consciousness, to
this is intermingling to this

206
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,360
unity of which we all, from
which we all spring and of which

207
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:43,720
we all are apart, then we have
peace, right?

208
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:45,400
And so that's what ends up
mattering.

209
00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,960
So I think we should start
fetishizing that.

210
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:50,560
We're going to fetishize
something.

211
00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:55,200
The funny thing is, I was
talking with a friend the other

212
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:56,480
day.
He had this experience.

213
00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,080
He had a unity experience in
meditation, you know, which you

214
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:03,040
often have in meditation.
And he started chasing it and

215
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,160
he, his ego came in and said,
oh, well, how can I harness

216
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,280
this?
And I was like, it's so funny

217
00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,840
because like if you have a baby
or something like there's no way

218
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,560
any mother has a baby and goes,
oh, this is amazing.

219
00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:19,440
How can I harness this baby?
It's like it's a thing that

220
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,040
happens to you.
The whole point is this is a

221
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:24,560
gift from the universe.
Hello.

222
00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:32,040
You do not control it.
So that's like the big shameful

223
00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,880
thing.
And that's, and that, and that

224
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,400
actually speaks to the shame I
was talking about earlier.

225
00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:42,120
Where does the shame come from
for the scientists who do study

226
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,520
these things that we don't
understand?

227
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,240
It's that if there's a deep
awareness that when you really

228
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,560
don't control this like that,
you're, you're stepping into

229
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:53,640
territory where it's a, where
you, where people will realize

230
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,320
there's this incredible power
that we don't control.

231
00:13:56,560 --> 00:14:00,280
And that's scary because the,
you know, part of the scientific

232
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,760
history is that the goal is to
control.

233
00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,160
I don't believe that's the most
mystical or interesting part of

234
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,400
the scientific history, but that
is part of the scientific

235
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,720
history.
Yeah, and I think one of the

236
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:14,760
other deep aspects of the
universe that you see as

237
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,600
something that's fundamental is
love.

238
00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,000
So you see the science of love
as a force almost.

239
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,920
When you study love not merely
as an emotion, but as something

240
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:25,960
with structural and causal
properties.

241
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:28,240
What does that mean
scientifically?

242
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,600
To treat love as fundamental, as
an organizing force, rather than

243
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,680
a psychological by product.
Well, it's both.

244
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,120
So what I do is I investigate
both.

245
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,440
So I, I differentiate them, but
they have a relationship.

246
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:48,640
So let me give a you know, I've
never ever retained the

247
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:50,760
difference between an analogy
and a metaphor.

248
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,360
So let me give either an analogy
or a metaphor.

249
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,160
You decide what it is and you
can tell me later and I'll

250
00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,920
forget.
But when we go out into the sun,

251
00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,680
which is something that we don't
control and that is a natural

252
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,920
feature of the of our solar
system, we go out into the sun

253
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,680
on a sunny day.
We have an experience of being

254
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:15,480
warm.
So you can study the sun and you

255
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,360
can study the warm feeling that
you have when you're exposed to

256
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,600
the sun.
And those are both legitimate

257
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,440
things to study.
One is more psychological or

258
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:28,760
maybe spiritual, one is more
physics or astronomy or

259
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,120
astrophysics.
Those are both legitimate.

260
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,080
And you can study the
relationship between those and

261
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,400
that's legitimate too.
So science, the, the, the, the

262
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,480
nature of science is that it
could be used.

263
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:42,640
I mean, you're used to study
anything.

264
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,480
It's just that you have to like,
sometimes it takes a while to

265
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,000
learn how to study a new area,
right?

266
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,480
And so that's how I feel about
love.

267
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,960
So I, I see love as ads.
I'm like I'm with Tailhard

268
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,960
Dishard and I love is a, a force
of the universe that's real,

269
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:05,440
like a physical force.
And in fact, I would define that

270
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,920
that that I call universal love,
that kind of physics love, I

271
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:13,280
call universal love.
And I would define it as the

272
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,160
thing from which everything
arises.

273
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,160
So when I talk about that cosmic
consciousness under underneath

274
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,920
that is the thing from that
which that arises and what is

275
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,760
and in fact is almost a
primitive to that, right?

276
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:30,920
Like I think it's and the the
very clear definition, I think

277
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,520
it's very clear definition I
have of that kind of love is

278
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,680
universal love is that which
connects.

279
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:42,080
So if you look at physics,
physics is actually all about

280
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,440
relationships.
You can't describe one particle

281
00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,040
without describing another one.
That it's not like a proton and

282
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,600
neutron are different because
one has charge and one doesn't.

283
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,280
You know, 2 quirks are different
because they have one is, has a

284
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,080
strange one is charmed or
whatever.

285
00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,800
You know, the way gravity works
has to do with the relationship

286
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,880
between this mass or this energy
density and acceleration and

287
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,000
gravity are related because of
the, it's, I mean, it's, I'm

288
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,319
saying an obvious thing that's
true about basically any

289
00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:16,960
discipline, but in physics it,
it makes it very bare because

290
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,160
the job of physics is to
simplify everything.

291
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,960
And still you can't define
anything without, it's like,

292
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,280
it's like a, it's like a lesson
in duality.

293
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,000
Like you can't define anything
else, anything without defining

294
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,640
something else.
And the relationship between

295
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,200
them.
And so I think that relation,

296
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,080
that bridge between them is, is
love, is universal love.

297
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,000
And so of course, it's
everything.

298
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:43,160
It's the thing from which
everything, that which connects

299
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,760
is the thing from which
everything must be created.

300
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:47,840
Otherwise you don't have
anything.

301
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:52,240
How can you have anything if you
don't have that much connects?

302
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,920
So that's the physical form of
love, universal love.

303
00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,680
Now when people, human beings,
I'm just going to, let's just

304
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,640
leave it to humans.
I know what animals can do this

305
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,240
too, but just like just like to
narrow the field a little bit

306
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:15,200
because this is very broad.
When people allow themselves to

307
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:21,880
know that that which connects is
the thing of which they are

308
00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,600
made.
So when they allow themselves to

309
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,400
access universal love and know
that that is the thing of which

310
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:33,560
they are made from which they
arise, there's a feeling that

311
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,480
happens and that's called
unconditional love.

312
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,600
So this is the like going out
into the sun.

313
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,840
This is the getting warm and
going, wow, this is kind of

314
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:44,520
nice.
You know, on a cold day, maybe,

315
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,240
maybe not in South Africa, I'm
not sure.

316
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:50,840
Depends on the the month, right?
Right now it's cold there.

317
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,440
It wasn't warm anyway.
I don't know, but is it warm or

318
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:55,360
cold in South Africa?
Right.

319
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,400
I'm distracted by this.
Right now it's it's hot but

320
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,840
super windy so it's crazy.
That's why I've got my mic on

321
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,200
mute.
It's literally like a storm

322
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,800
outside but a heat wave storm,
which is kind of crazy.

323
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,200
OK, so if you were to go out
into the sun on a day when it's

324
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,720
super windy, then that might
feel good because it's like, OK,

325
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,440
there's something stable coming
up, right?

326
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,920
OK, so sorry, I just had to bond
with you to figure out what was

327
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:25,160
going on there.
So what I'm experiencing

328
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:26,720
unconditional love, when
anyone's experiencing

329
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,360
unconditional love, what they're
doing is they're accessing this

330
00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:31,480
universal love.
It's like a current, it's like

331
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,160
electricity.
And so it's, and just knowing

332
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,800
that it's there, but it's bigger
than that in the sense that it's

333
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:39,840
everything, right?
It, it's the, it's the birth

334
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:41,880
place of everything.
It's the universal womb, right?

335
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,680
So that experience of
unconditional love, you could

336
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,400
also describe and, and ignore
universal love and say, OK, I

337
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,440
don't believe in that part of
the theory, but what, what is

338
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,200
the psychological definition of
unconditional love?

339
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:55,720
Well, the psychological
definition of unconditional love

340
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,920
that that I've created and, and
created an assessment for a

341
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,560
self-assessment for is like a
paragraph long.

342
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,400
And it's irritating because I do
a lot of podcasts and I always

343
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,160
forget what it is.
So you can read my papers and

344
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,680
find out what it is.
I think a more clear and concise

345
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,480
and understandable definition is
the one that I've been using

346
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,800
lately, which is unconditional.
You know you're experiencing

347
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,800
unconditional love when you feel
love for yourself.

348
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:30,720
Love for others, and you can
experience love from others

349
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,480
without anyone or anything
needing to change.

350
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,960
So you're feeling love for
yourself, love for others, and

351
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,520
experiencing love from others
without anything needing to

352
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,280
change.
So this is really radical

353
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:49,720
because it's not about, well,
it's not conditional love.

354
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,360
Conditional love is what we're
used to.

355
00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:55,560
And that's a very, that is not
about connecting to universal

356
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:57,840
love.
That is, that is about I love

357
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,280
you, you love me.
If you keep saying I love you,

358
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,600
then I'll keep saying I love you
and then we love each other.

359
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,440
But if you stop saying it, then
I don't love you.

360
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:11,240
And then it's very different.
Or, you know, I love you as long

361
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,320
as you don't drink or I love you
as long as you don't hit me or

362
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,440
whatever it is right now.
I really want to.

363
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,480
I brought up those examples for
a reason, which is when people

364
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,440
hear about unconditional love,
they think that's risky because

365
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,560
if you love yourself and others
and you can feel love from

366
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,400
yourself and others without
anything needing to change, then

367
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,680
nothing will change.
See, that's, that's actually

368
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,280
incorrect thought, but that's
what people think.

369
00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:43,960
And, and I think therefore I
will stay with a person who's

370
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,200
abusing me because all I could
actually love them also.

371
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,320
That's fine.
I love you.

372
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,960
Nothing needs to change.
What's amazing is that that's

373
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,640
not how it works.
So when you actually access

374
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,480
universal love and you
experience unconditional love

375
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,480
and you have this experience of
being loved and loving without

376
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,360
anything needing to change,
everything changes.

377
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,600
And you're able to like tell the
person who's abusing you, for

378
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,200
instance, I love you so much,
I'm going to move out.

379
00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:20,680
You know, it's, it's no longer
are your actions, like no longer

380
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:25,000
are your actions contingent on,
oh, I have to show that I love

381
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:25,960
you.
Like, that's not it.

382
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,560
You love them.
You feel deep love that is

383
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,240
there.
And you also love yourself and

384
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,400
you're very clear about what
your next action has to be.

385
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,440
So it helps to create these
incredibly powerful and healthy

386
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:45,160
boundaries because by by telling
your kid that they have to move

387
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,560
out of the house because they
keep doing drugs and telling

388
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,640
them how much you love them,
that those are both real.

389
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,160
You're not withdrawing your love
to try to change something.

390
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,400
So the fantasy we have that if
you unconditionally love

391
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:07,200
someone, then that means that
they will just get get away with

392
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,960
everything.
It reveals our secret theory,

393
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,440
which is that we have control
over people and we're going to

394
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,120
withdraw our love to control
them.

395
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,240
So it reveals the lie and.
Something I found quite

396
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,840
fascinating was the some of your
work done on AI that loves you.

397
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,720
You call it the creation of an
unconditionally loving robot

398
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,600
that reduced anger and cognitive
load.

399
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,080
What?
What does it mean for a robot to

400
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,960
express unconditional love
firstly, And what is the minimum

401
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,880
architecture required for such
expression to be authentic or

402
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,280
effective?
Yeah, authentic and effective

403
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,440
are different things and good
question.

404
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:56,520
So, so let's separate out what
we're done like so we can talk

405
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,560
about qualia, we can talk about
a robot having qualia, which

406
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,840
means an internal experience of
what it means to, for instance,

407
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,440
in this case, the experience
unconditional love.

408
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,640
So I have no understanding or
belief around whether when we

409
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,520
were working with the robot, it
had an internal qualia.

410
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:25,000
Obviously the qualia question is
like, it's really it's, it's

411
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,120
rough.
It's a very difficult one.

412
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,360
The only thing that I can assume
is sort of everything has

413
00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:34,600
internal quality.
I guess I've become kind of a

414
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:41,840
pan psychist, but and then we
people want to qualify that and

415
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,200
say, oh, but at different levels
and and I got, I don't know

416
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,600
about that.
I, I just, if everything is made

417
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:55,760
of this connection, this, this
that which connects universal

418
00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:01,760
love, this connection has, it's
like the life force or

419
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,960
something, you know what I mean?
It's like that which enlivens is

420
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:07,800
not very different from that
which connects.

421
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,080
Would are you we can get back to
this, but something of that just

422
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,680
crossed my mind is when you see
that universal love and this

423
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,840
woven consciousness element from
this, perhaps from this pan

424
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,040
psychos view as well, Is there a
teleological purpose to all of

425
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,760
this?
Do you feel like that is is

426
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,200
perhaps the universe a love, the
outcome of all of this?

427
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,240
Is there a Is this headed
somewhere?

428
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,000
Hidden.
Is this headed somewhere?

429
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,480
Is like this moving towards?
Oh, headed, Headed somewhere.

430
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,000
Sorry, it's the vowels.
So the South American I.

431
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:39,440
Can't.
No, no.

432
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,640
It's the American accent.
Either way.

433
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,120
Is it headed somewhere?
Let's get.

434
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:52,640
OK, so let's let me answer that
first question about the robot

435
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,840
from the direction of what's
useful and what humans

436
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,840
experience.
And then we'll go to is it

437
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,400
headed somewhere?
But keep me honest about that.

438
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:02,880
I think it's a really good
question.

439
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:10,120
I'm glad you asked.
So the robot, so we know that

440
00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:12,400
what we were doing in that
study, and you can read about

441
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,760
this in Big Think, I think you
can put the article out there.

442
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:20,160
Obviously you've read it
thinking, we know that in that

443
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,880
study, all we were doing is
trying to help the robot, which

444
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:28,360
was so Sophia from Hanson
Robotics, trying to help her

445
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,560
make facial expressions that
would capture people's mirror

446
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,320
neurons so that they would feel.
And basically we know that we're

447
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,600
tricking the brain into feeling
like there's another person

448
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,400
there.
And then we'll go, OK, assuming

449
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,040
that we they have, we have
successfully done that.

450
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,160
And there are some simple ways
to do that with face animations.

451
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,600
Like, you know, right now, like
you and I having this

452
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,040
conversation, we're both
unconsciously matching our

453
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,560
blanks.
We're matching our sort of body

454
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,000
positions just to to be in
conversation with each other.

455
00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:04,560
I just say, hey, I'm another
human over here.

456
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,840
I'm listening to you.
I see you, I'm connected.

457
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,040
So we knew how to do that with
her and it was really powerful.

458
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:15,440
We found out later that a lot of
these non verbal cues were very

459
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,240
important to making people feel
listened to and loved.

460
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,760
But one of the key things we did
was we reflected back, we

461
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,920
mirrored in her face the
feelings of the person was

462
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,280
putting up.
So we had a camera.

463
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:34,120
We did some neural network
analysis and figured out sort of

464
00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:38,800
classified, not very well, but
decently the person's feelings

465
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,240
and then mirror them back to the
to the person.

466
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,320
And we know that that had a big
impact because we could sort of

467
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,760
breakdown analytically what had
an impact on their feelings of

468
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,640
feeling loved.
But when they had a feeling of

469
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,720
anger or disgust, we did not
mirror that.

470
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,880
Instead, we would mirror
compassion.

471
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,160
We would, we would project
compassion with her face.

472
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,920
We would project neutrality,
sometimes sadness.

473
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,520
So it's because of those are
secondary emotions.

474
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,880
Like disgust isn't a secondary
emotion.

475
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,800
If like you get poop on your
shoe and you're disgusted,

476
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,480
that's a primary response to
like germs.

477
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,040
That's evolutionary.
But when people are disgusted by

478
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,680
themselves, which is often when
you ask people to talk about

479
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,880
what's going on or things that
they've done, they'll talk about

480
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,040
things they regret and they get
disgusted or when things are

481
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,920
angry, often at themselves, when
people, I'm sorry, when people

482
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:40,960
are angry often at themselves,
it really helps to recognize

483
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,400
that that's because there's fear
or sadness underneath the hood.

484
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,720
And so instead of mirroring back
what they were experiencing, we

485
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,320
took them to that other level.
And that had a seemingly A

486
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,360
profound impact.
I mean, significantly reduced

487
00:28:55,360 --> 00:29:00,160
anger and disgust and move them
to more of a place of either

488
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,720
neutrality or sadness, which in
15 minutes is not a bad move.

489
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,520
Someone who's in a place of
sadness, we couldn't really

490
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,840
differentiate neutrality from
sadness, But someone who's in a

491
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,160
place of sadness is looking at,
is feeling their feelings.

492
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,200
They're looking at what's going
on.

493
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,760
Eventually they'll get out of
that place.

494
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,840
But it was a really powerful
move and unconditional love can

495
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,640
help that.
It can help you get where you're

496
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,040
going in terms of emotional
processing.

497
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,920
And so that was very powerful.
And so we've, you know, the team

498
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,480
has broken up and gone to, we
still, you know, talk to each

499
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,440
other, but we've gone to a bunch
of different projects where

500
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,040
we're trying to replicate that.
Like I've made some GPTS trying

501
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,480
to replicate that and other
people are trying to make robot

502
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,760
nurses trying to replicate that.
And so it's it's sort of

503
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,760
filtering out into the world.
Yeah, I think what appears, I

504
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,120
think one what appears is called
the Socratic GPT.

505
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:55,840
Yeah, yeah, Student of Humanity.
Yeah.

506
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:01,640
So my nonprofit, the Institute
for Love and Time is really

507
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,880
becoming this wonderful, almost
like a lab for understanding

508
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:11,600
love.
And and one of our projects is

509
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,040
just that we threw up there and
we need definitely need help

510
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,080
from people, volunteers for
people to work on this.

511
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,520
But it's called the student of
humanity.

512
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:24,680
And the idea is to instead of AI
telling us, sort of like

513
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,960
ingesting what we create on the
Internet and then regurgitating

514
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,480
it out, what if I learned from
us by asking us insightful

515
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,640
questions and helping us realize
that we have this wisdom inside

516
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,240
of us?
And ideally, in its best

517
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,760
iteration, I want student of
humanity to be to learn from

518
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,680
someone in South Africa and just
speak to someone in Kansas and

519
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,280
on the same day, say, this is
what I learned from someone in

520
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:50,920
South Africa.
Is there a way this could help

521
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,560
you so that we start to learn
from each other in different

522
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,480
countries?
Like really spread the wisdom.

523
00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,360
So that's my hope for the
future.

524
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:00,560
Right now it's just this little
chatbot.

525
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,040
And I think that I think that's
a great way to diversify.

526
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,160
It's these experience because it
often, often times, even when

527
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,400
someone from let's say South
African America are chatting,

528
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,520
you can often tell the
differences, even though we're

529
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,760
fundamentally similar, you can
see that there is the separation

530
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,080
and an artificial intelligence.
If they don't engage with these

531
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,920
differences, it's, it's very
difficult to unite, I guess in a

532
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,880
sense, but.
Yeah, it it right.

533
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,560
If, if we still pretend that
we're so far apart, we're really

534
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,480
just not, you know, Yeah.
Exactly.

535
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,920
But it's there's so much more in
common than there are

536
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,440
differences that it would be
much easier to actually align

537
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:43,000
then and then break apart.
If love is a force, Julia, or a

538
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,000
capacity that can be engineered
into systems, what ethical

539
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,240
obligations arise when designing
machines that shape human

540
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:54,200
emotional states?
Yeah, let's talk about that.

541
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,280
And also let's talk about what
is the end game?

542
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,400
Is there an end game for
universal love to, to create all

543
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,800
this?
So actually let's talk about

544
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:05,200
that first because that's on my
mind.

545
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:14,720
So I think it's, I think kind of
like my, my answer to your

546
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,040
question about what ties all
these things together.

547
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,200
I think that's like the
universal love is like that.

548
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,880
That is the nature of universal
love.

549
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,280
It connects.
So the end game is doing its

550
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,400
nature just like for everything
that's that's it's tinker toy

551
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,120
job, right?
Its job is to connect.

552
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,560
It's a bridge.
And so the end game is what you

553
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:43,720
know, what happens when you when
you bridge everything in

554
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:51,680
different patterns, But I don't
think there's a someday maybe

555
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,600
they'll get it.
Like I it's like we, we, we, we

556
00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:00,520
sort of separate ourselves from
the universe that we sometimes

557
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,320
think like.
So like God had a plan and yeah,

558
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:05,600
we got to figure out what the
plan is.

559
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,760
It's like really, you think
God's stupid enough to like, not

560
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,960
let you know what the plan is or
like not fill you in on what

561
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:19,880
like you might be doing what
It's just like a continued

562
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,800
overestimation of our separation
from from the source of

563
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,120
everything, as if we are
independent, we can harness it

564
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,280
and control it as if we are not
puppets for it.

565
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:37,320
And so, you know, it's it's, you
know, that old joke of the sock

566
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,120
puppet in the hand, you know,
I'm not sure I believe in the

567
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,320
hand.
And the sock puppet is saying,

568
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:44,800
I'm not sure I believe in the
hand.

569
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,480
And it's like, well, you know,
who's making you say that?

570
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:54,600
So, so this right here is the
end game, you know, and, and

571
00:33:54,600 --> 00:34:03,840
then this also, so in terms of
ethics of what we create that

572
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,159
affect people's emotions.
So this is part of why I created

573
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:10,840
the institute for 11 times
because I, I had created a start

574
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,400
up right after loving AI project
where we were going to create a

575
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,159
chat bot that would help people
in therapy.

576
00:34:17,159 --> 00:34:20,280
But we had all these ways to
make it non addictive.

577
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,239
Like people would schedule
appointments like a therapy

578
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,120
session so that, and then they
would put more value in their

579
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,000
time spent.
But that was it one time a week

580
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,679
or whatever.
Like that's what you could do

581
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,320
saves energy, saves bandwidth
and makes it non addictive and

582
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,800
helps people actually take it
seriously and put their time and

583
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,840
attention into it.
And we go to a AVC to get

584
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,159
funding for the project.
And they're like, that's great.

585
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:50,719
How's it going to become sticky?
We're like, by sticking to your

586
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:51,920
being addictive.
And they're like, yeah.

587
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,760
And we're like, no, that's not
how you help people.

588
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,280
Addiction is not an appropriate
business model.

589
00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:02,680
And right now it is the business
model.

590
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,320
Like you go through Business
School and they're like, I swear

591
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,080
to God.
And the old days, I was like,

592
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,040
people need things, and you got
to tell them like, oh, by the

593
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:13,440
way, we can solve your problem
this way.

594
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,080
And now it's like people get
addicted to things.

595
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,920
And now what you need to do is
figure out how to make your

596
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,600
thing addictive.
So yeah, not OK.

597
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,640
So we got to stop doing that.
That should be illegal.

598
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,520
So addiction as a business model
should be illegal in all

599
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:33,280
categories.
And then we have to realize how

600
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:38,040
fragile the brain is.
So like, the entertainment

601
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,440
industry is like, we'll just
keep bumping up the amount of

602
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,760
violence that we show people
because they get used to this

603
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,120
violence and they want more.
You know, it's like, no, you

604
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,720
actually, you actually have the
power to change the brains of

605
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:52,000
the entire planet.
So what you're going to do is

606
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,720
you're slowly going to ramp them
down and help them learn how to

607
00:35:55,720 --> 00:36:01,120
turn their addiction into seeing
violence into sadness or into

608
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,080
fear, or into something that
will help them transform and

609
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,480
help them recognize their own
trauma and heal it.

610
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:14,000
That's what you're going to do.
And so and so there now that we

611
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:20,440
understand enough about the
brain to see the ways that hyper

612
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:26,240
stimuli can really impact whole
generations of people and

613
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:30,800
therefore the whole world, we
have a responsibility to not do

614
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,640
that.
So there's a lot of undoing and

615
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,160
healing.
So that therefore what also

616
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,960
needs to be added is a lot of
technology that's going to help

617
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,320
with trauma healing that's been
induced by earlier technology, a

618
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,920
lot of technology that's going
to reduce the amount of time we

619
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,600
spend not seeing our friends and
family and and spend on

620
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,760
technology.
So like we're in a new wave now.

621
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,480
And I'm just going to announce
it like that because I always

622
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,360
like announcing things right
before they come.

623
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,920
Because if you announce someone,
they come, it's boring.

624
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,480
But right before they come, I'm
telling you there's going to be

625
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:12,280
a backlash to the obsessive use
of of technology.

626
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,880
And that includes AI, and that
includes replacing people's jobs

627
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,120
with AIAI does a pretty much a
crappy job at everything except

628
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,560
for asking really good questions
and helping people learn how

629
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,480
much power and brilliance they
have inside of them, which is

630
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,120
really what we ought to be using
it for.

631
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:34,760
AI can really help people find
out how wonderful they are if it

632
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:40,240
if we stop designing AI to act
like it knows everything because

633
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,280
it doesn't.
To change the model

634
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,720
fundamentally, stop.
Stop being consumer driven and

635
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,600
and shift the goal all together.
I think, yeah.

636
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,480
Well, we, I mean, we just, I
think if you want to have

637
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:56,160
consumers in the future who are
alive to consume your product,

638
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:58,400
you're going to have to change
your product.

639
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,160
That's very true.
I think that I completely agree

640
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,160
with that.
I think and I think the steps of

641
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,200
these, there's many steps are
being taken.

642
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,560
A look, if you look at a lot of
countries, slowly they're

643
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,760
removing tablets out of schools.
They're starting to realize that

644
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,600
there's small steps we need to
take to get back to a norm that

645
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,640
previously existed and then try
and shift away from it in a more

646
00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:20,120
constructive way.
Yes, I think hopefully that will

647
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,200
continue.
But you're fascinating in the

648
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,200
sense that you, as I said
earlier, you're touching many

649
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,520
different things and you bring
them all together at some point,

650
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,720
one of them being you mentioned
time just now, mind and time.

651
00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:35,360
So when looking back, I mean,
for you it was considered to

652
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,000
taboo to talk about things like
precondition, etcetera.

653
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,400
But what do you think about time
when it comes to the mind and

654
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,880
what has your exploration led to
in terms of discoveries,

655
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,760
fundamental changes in your own
world views, etcetera?

656
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:53,880
Yeah.
I mean, I can't say that

657
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,480
anything in my world view has
fundamentally changed around

658
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,720
time, because when I was a kid,
I had these really detailed

659
00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:04,200
precognitive dreams.
So even around the age of 7,

660
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,080
because I started to writing
things in my dream journal.

661
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,360
And my mom was a therapist and
my dad was a physicist.

662
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:16,440
And so I kind of knew that the
human brain could mess up and

663
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,920
think that you dropped something
when you didn't and it was just

664
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,960
deja vu or whatever.
So I started recording them and

665
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,560
then seeing like, yeah, I'm
really dreaming detailed things

666
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:32,560
about future events. 345 very
clear details are matching, you

667
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,840
know, within a day or a week of
the dream.

668
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:42,600
And I'm also knowing things,
just knowing things that seemed

669
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,400
to happen.
And I don't know how I know

670
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,560
them.
That's all that all could be.

671
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:56,560
You know that I'm an excellent
pattern matcher with unconscious

672
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,040
cues coming in through my
regular senses, right?

673
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:05,040
So I ended up studying whether
that could be the case because I

674
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,040
got fascinated with it in me.
And it came back to me as a

675
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,240
graduate student during
neuroscience is like, wait a

676
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:12,720
minute, I have these experiences
that I've been ignoring.

677
00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:17,280
And I have to look at this
because is this just picking up

678
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,880
on cues that are there sensory
cues that are just really

679
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,680
invisible to the conscious mind?
And then just going, aha, which

680
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,560
is such a good explanation?
Or is it reaching into some into

681
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,600
the future, or is the future
delivering information back here

682
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,480
or what's the deal?
And so there's a way to test

683
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,640
that that's super simple.
I called Dean Radin and I asked

684
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,920
about his ways to test that
because he really did a bunch of

685
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:44,680
pioneering research on
precognition and he explained

686
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,200
how simple it was.
And I was like, yeah, that's

687
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:47,800
super simple.
Basically.

688
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,360
I mean, I can tell you how these
experiments work.

689
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:57,560
It's so it's so much 8th grade
science project that like, I

690
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:03,200
encourage you to try it at home,
but basically you're going to

691
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,520
record whatever kind of
information you're taking.

692
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,720
If it's Physiology, maybe it's a
heartbeat or something.

693
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:14,040
If it's behavior, maybe it's
drawing a picture or having a

694
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,680
dream.
So you record whatever behavior.

695
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,520
Once you have recorded that and
it is like solid and you can't

696
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,200
change it.
So whatever kind of thing it is,

697
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,320
you make sure it's solid and you
can't change it.

698
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:32,080
Then use a random, truly random
number generator to pick

699
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:37,440
something that is going to be
later in the analysis,

700
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,680
determined whether it is related
to what you drew, what you

701
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,680
dreamt, what, how your heart was
beating.

702
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,040
So for instance, in a Physiology
study, you might record the

703
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,320
heartbeat, then a random for 10
seconds.

704
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,440
Then a random number generator
selects one of, you know, 400

705
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,840
pictures.
Those 400 pictures are divided

706
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,640
into two groups.
There's 200 that are really kind

707
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,280
of scary or exciting, and
there's 200 that are kind of

708
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,840
boring.
We know that after you see an

709
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,960
exciting picture, your heart
beats faster.

710
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,640
We know that see a picture of
like the gun pointed at you,

711
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:12,960
which by the way, when I did
that experiment, I had to stop

712
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,360
it because people were crying.
So I had to use like a different

713
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,400
method, which I can tell you
about if you want to hear.

714
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,680
But anyway, if you see something
scary or exciting, your

715
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,560
heartbeat speeds up afterwards.
So in this experiment, you're

716
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:31,000
just checking to see does the
heartbeat speed up before in a

717
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,920
statistically reliable way.
And so I did a bunch of those

718
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,080
studies and found out like,
yeah, it does.

719
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,880
And then looked at skin
conductance, which was another

720
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:42,360
physiological major.
Yeah, it does.

721
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,840
Then looked at brain activity.
Yeah, it does.

722
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:51,360
And then did a meta analysis, or
I'm saying, and then, but in

723
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,200
this isn't really in
chronological order, but it

724
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,360
doesn't matter.
Then also did a meta analysis of

725
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,280
26 studies that people had done,
including myself, to determine

726
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,440
statistically whether this was a
reliable effect.

727
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,800
And it is Then, you know, five
years later, someone else did

728
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,160
another matter. 5 or 10 years
later, someone else did another

729
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:10,720
meta analysis and still holds
up.

730
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,400
This is a, this is an
established phenomenon of the

731
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,480
human body does.
And just remember that in this

732
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,320
paradigm, a random number
generator is picking the target

733
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:26,880
after you record your
information.

734
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,880
And there's no communication
between your information and the

735
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,720
random number generator, right?
So that's the way I used to do

736
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:36,280
it is physiologically.
And then now I've been studying

737
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,920
precognitive remote viewing,
which is much more reliable,

738
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,000
which is funny because it's
literally people drawing

739
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,480
pictures of what they think the
future photo will look like.

740
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,040
And you would think that would
be less reliable.

741
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:52,920
But it's more reliable as long
as people are in the state of

742
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:57,160
unconditional love.
So that's why we ended up using

743
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,960
that unconditional love
questionnaire because after the

744
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,480
Loving AI project, because it
turns out that it differentiates

745
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,360
people will who will perform
well on getting the information

746
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,480
from the future from people who
won't.

747
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,480
So it's like they're getting
down into that cosmic

748
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,080
consciousness where those that
intermingling happens and that

749
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,440
and of course you have the
information there because time

750
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:25,040
isn't separate there.
Julie, when you think about

751
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:30,360
predictive processing versus
precognitive processing, given

752
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,720
the rise in predictive
processing models, do you see

753
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:36,440
precognition as an extension of
ordinary predictive mechanisms

754
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,680
or as something fundamentally
distinct?

755
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,120
It is an extension that uses
something fundamentally

756
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,880
distinct.
So it's an extension because

757
00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:50,720
current processing models are
all using like machine learning

758
00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:57,280
based on past data.
So precognition would be, let's

759
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,760
use machine learning based on
information that's coming from

760
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,440
the future, right?
That's how you would tie, I'm

761
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,640
sorry, that's how you would tie
precognition into a predictive

762
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,600
processing model or a predictive
analytics, right?

763
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,920
So if you don't actually believe
information can come from the

764
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,280
future, you would not do that.
But for those who follow the

765
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,200
literature and realize that we
can actually the human body is

766
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,120
sensitive to information from
the future.

767
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,960
I've done experiments that
suggest that systems of of

768
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:28,920
photons, so light, particles,
waves are also informed about

769
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:33,040
information about the future.
Then of course, you would create

770
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,160
a predictive analytic system
that would tie together what we

771
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:37,920
know from the past and what we
know from the future.

772
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:39,880
Why would you not do that?
Right?

773
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:45,320
And so it basically, it's an
extension, but it's only going

774
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,520
to be done by people who
actually think it's not a waste

775
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,120
of time.
And so that's very interesting

776
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,000
because the people who think
that it's not a waste of time

777
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,520
are probably people who have had
their own personal experiences

778
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,920
of precognition.
Well, those people, these

779
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,720
statistically looks like from my
data are going to be people who

780
00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:04,280
are more often experiencing
unconditional love.

781
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:09,040
So if we go ahead and tie
together those things, maybe we

782
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,640
end up with predictive analytics
that are going to help lead

783
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,080
towards something like World
Peace.

784
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,880
This is You say I'm a dreamer,
but I'm not the only one.

785
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:24,160
Yeah, it's it's it's it's it
ties in closely now

786
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,760
consciousness with causality.
I think it's a, it's a great

787
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,840
segue into many of your
interests touch on causality,

788
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,240
what causes what across time and
mind.

789
00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:38,080
Do our current notions of
causality need revision to

790
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:42,160
accommodate consciousness,
precognition and non ordinary

791
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:50,440
temporal phenomena?
Our our current conceptions with

792
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:55,360
causality need revision, period.
Do they need revision to explain

793
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,240
these other things?
I don't know if you mean by

794
00:46:58,240 --> 00:47:00,600
consciousness, cosmic
consciousness, which is sort of

795
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,280
how I think you're talking about
it, not the individual like

796
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,320
thing that goes away during like
anaesthetic.

797
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:16,200
Causality is the story.
Causality is what our conscious

798
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,080
mind has learned in the West is
that the stories are about

799
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,600
causality.
I dropped the egg, it fell on

800
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,880
the floor and that that's why it
broke up, right?

801
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:33,640
Causality is the story.
The story is culturally created.

802
00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:37,840
It's created from what we
perceive.

803
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,840
Universal love is that which
connects.

804
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,440
Notice that a bridge does not
have directionality.

805
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:51,240
It connects A&B.
So if we can change our idea of

806
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:54,200
causality, and I think that's a
disaster because the word

807
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,360
causality seems like it's
asymmetric, right?

808
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,120
One thing causes another.
What you said, what causes what,

809
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,320
right?
There's this desire, what causes

810
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:07,200
what?
When we look at a table, we

811
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,000
don't say that the left side of
the table causes the right side

812
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:16,680
of the table, right?
If you take out one of the legs,

813
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:21,640
you could say taking out the leg
caused the table to fall over.

814
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,640
You could say that, right?
And so I think we need to look

815
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:28,480
at causality because that's what
we do say.

816
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,480
I think we need to look at the
causality more like the static

817
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:37,280
picture of the table itself.
So just take the table.

818
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,040
What causes the left side of the
table?

819
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:42,840
Well, it just exists.
It's connected.

820
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,680
What's what makes it a table is
it's connected by the table top.

821
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,840
To the right side of the table
is a table.

822
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:55,400
OK, so now things happen where
we just notice again and again.

823
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,200
I noticed that if I don't get
born, I don't die.

824
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,360
Like that's really solid,
statistically reliable finding

825
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:09,160
no one dies who wasn't born.
Does being born cause death?

826
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:15,680
They're related.
One comes before the other,

827
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:22,040
right?
That's what we know.

828
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,280
And so the causality is we want
to tell a story about that

829
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,720
because we are grasping all the
time and trying to control.

830
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,240
Right.
And we've done a really good job

831
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,880
at, like, it is not insane to
want to control your

832
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:38,680
environment.
The environment is hostile to us

833
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:39,480
a lot.
We can.

834
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:41,040
Yeah.
It gets really cold.

835
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:42,560
It gets really hot.
There's lightning, there's

836
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:44,400
Thunder.
There's not enough food, There's

837
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,600
not enough water.
Like, we need an understanding

838
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:53,040
of causality to to go understand
that the well is going to be

839
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,800
full after a rain, and that's
when we should go get water,

840
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,120
right?
I mean, like, that's great.

841
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,000
We need that.
We're in physical bodies.

842
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:01,560
I'm not saying that's a bad
thing.

843
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,000
I'm saying if we want to
understand the nature of the

844
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:09,240
universe and ourselves as
mystical beings or as as related

845
00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:13,600
to consciousness in the cosmic
consciousness sense, we would do

846
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,000
well to realize that that's the
story that allows us to survive

847
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,040
in physical bodies.
But that's not a rule.

848
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,760
Causality is not a rule of
anything but physicality.

849
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,280
So it's not even a rule of
information.

850
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:29,840
And our minds deal with
information all the time.

851
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,640
And so that's why these things
like precognition, that's an

852
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:35,920
informational experience.
That's like informational time

853
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:37,760
travel.
You're receiving information

854
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:39,880
from the future.
You're not receiving an object,

855
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,640
you're not receiving energy.
You're seeing information from

856
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,160
the future.
Information does not play by the

857
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,520
same rules as the physical
world.

858
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,080
And so that's what we got to get
into our heads.

859
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,840
So one bit of information does
not 'cause another bit of

860
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:02,760
information, but we link them
together because we want to be

861
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,520
in, because we live in the
physical world and it helps us

862
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,560
there, but our nature is not
physical.

863
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:13,560
When you look at this
relationship between time and

864
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:19,320
mind, how do you views on time
shape your understanding of the

865
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:27,880
mind body problem?
I wish I knew the answer to

866
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:29,880
that.
The the reason I don't know the

867
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:31,920
answer to that is probably the
answer to that.

868
00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:35,400
So the reason I don't know the
reason I don't know the answer

869
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:42,880
to that is because it has shaped
all at once without me noticing

870
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,040
it, my view of the mind body
problem.

871
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:52,360
Why has it shaped all at once?
Because my experience, my, my

872
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:57,320
view of and, and at this point,
my experience of time is that it

873
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,720
is an all at once phenomenon,
kind of like a landscape.

874
00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:04,920
So I must have this dream when I
was a kid, I was like 11, I was

875
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,000
worried about nuclear war
because it was during the Cold

876
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:11,080
War in the 80s.
And I, and after the stream, I

877
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:12,480
was never worried about nuclear
war.

878
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:18,280
And in this dream, I was in a
room and there was either a

879
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,040
chair or a desk.
I think it was a chair.

880
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:24,040
That's all that was in the room.
And a voice, like a guide voice

881
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:26,680
said to me, OK, time is like a
room.

882
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:32,280
If you're afraid of nuclear war,
you just have to know that it

883
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,560
could be there in the future and
where it is in the room and you

884
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:37,320
can avoid it.
You can walk around it just like

885
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:42,960
that chair essentially.
And I woke up and I was like,

886
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,880
oh, OK, cool.
So we just have to know where in

887
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:52,200
the possibility space an event
that we want to avoid is and we

888
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,400
can walk around it.
That's the feeling that I never

889
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:58,160
felt afraid of nuclear war
again, even though like that's

890
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,840
an interesting leap because it's
not like the voice said, and we

891
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:12,720
know where it is regardless.
So I don't see the mind body

892
00:53:12,720 --> 00:53:18,520
problem as a problem.
It's a problem for us.

893
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,080
It's a problem for us
understanding if we insist that

894
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,680
who we are, our physical beings
separate from each other and

895
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,880
that's really our our essence.
Yes, my body is separate from

896
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:30,240
your body.
Yes, I have a body.

897
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:32,600
Yes, when I die, I'll be dead.
And when I was born, I was born.

898
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:40,240
But who I am is not my body,
right?

899
00:53:40,240 --> 00:53:42,160
I'm in my body.
I love my body.

900
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:44,280
I'm in my body.
I celebrate my body.

901
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:48,200
I like when my body's healthy, I
feel sad when my body's not.

902
00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:59,680
But there's no problem there
because information is not the

903
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,560
same as the physical world.
Information, it forms the

904
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,040
physical world.
You know, this thing I'm calling

905
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,480
universal love, this, this,
that, which connects, that's

906
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:09,160
information.
I mean, when you connect to

907
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:13,360
things, that's information.
So these little bridges that

908
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:19,600
create everything, there's no
problem there.

909
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:23,240
So I don't think that.
So I don't think that my view of

910
00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:27,600
time has shaped it as much as
like I, I, I can't tell a good

911
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,640
story of the causality there.
And I'm not good with causality.

912
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:32,320
I can't tell a story of
causality there.

913
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:36,160
But what's true is I see time in
this way and therefore I don't

914
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:37,880
see the mind body problem as a
problem.

915
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:41,840
I think the mind body problem is
only a problem for materialists

916
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:44,000
who believe that like the first
thing is matter.

917
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:47,960
And from that everything comes.
I think like that is the least

918
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,400
conservative view of reality
that there is.

919
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,160
And I think as a scientist, you
have to be very conservative and

920
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:59,600
you have to go back to Descartes
and say, all I really know is

921
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:02,160
that I have experience.
And I don't even know why.

922
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:06,680
All I know is that experience
is, is happening that, you know,

923
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:11,120
experiencing is happening.
Therefore experience is

924
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:15,280
happening.
And then from that, like maybe

925
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,200
there's a chair here because I
hear it and I, my experience is

926
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:22,200
like in Rap God and stuff.
And so it just doesn't make any

927
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,640
sense to me to start with the
physical world because that's

928
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:29,680
the physical world must be an
inference from the story that

929
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,120
you're being told.
Why would you start from the

930
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,480
inference?
Yeah, if if you could redesign

931
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:37,720
the science of consciousness
from the ground up.

932
00:55:39,240 --> 00:55:40,400
What core?
Principle.

933
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,440
The science of Yeah, core
principle.

934
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:44,280
Don't study the science of
consciousness.

935
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:45,960
Study the science of
unconsciousness.

936
00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:48,160
There's like we're studying the
tip of the iceberg.

937
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:50,360
Study all the other stuff.
Like what?

938
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:52,480
What the hell?
Yeah.

939
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,080
And I mean, that brings us into
if we, if we're going to go deep

940
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,200
into this iceberg and try and go
as as far down as possible,

941
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:00,880
something that you studied
that's quite fascinating are non

942
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,760
ordinary phenomena.
And you know, in a sense it's

943
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,480
it's on the edge of mainstream
science that it's it's on the

944
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:11,240
edge of what mainstream science
tends to entertain or is willing

945
00:56:11,240 --> 00:56:13,600
to entertain.
How should philosophers and

946
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:17,840
scientists responsibly integrate
anomalous phenomena into serious

947
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:22,120
discourse without collapsing
into pseudoscience or relativism

948
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,960
where certain people take it too
far?

949
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,160
Or do you think some people take
it too far?

950
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:31,280
Or how do we do this in a
respectable, responsible manner?

951
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,840
Well, the first question every
scientist should ask themselves

952
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:41,600
or philosopher, anyone who's
interested in this field and, or

953
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,600
interested in like debunking the
field or interested in or drawn

954
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,440
to the field, or they hate the
field, but they're sort of drawn

955
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:49,080
to it or whatever.
There's all these combinations

956
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:50,600
of ways you can relate to this
field.

957
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,720
First question to ask is what
did you, what are you scared of

958
00:56:55,640 --> 00:57:00,000
personally?
Are you scared when you feel

959
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,160
ashamed?
If like you kind of think it's

960
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:03,880
fascinating, but you don't want
to be foolish.

961
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:07,040
You don't want other people to
laugh at you or what are you

962
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:08,200
afraid of?
What it when you're saying

963
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:09,880
you're doing something
responsibly, are you talking

964
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,800
about responsibly for your
career or like what do you think

965
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,920
that other people will like?
It's do you think you have so

966
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:19,760
much power in the world that if
you say maybe there's something

967
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,640
to this, that other people were
like, Oh no, maybe there's

968
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:25,360
something to it.
Like the fantasy that scientists

969
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,040
and philosophers have that they
have any power in the world over

970
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:32,040
what people think is ridiculous.
I mean, like, you know, Stranger

971
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:33,760
things has way more power than
you do.

972
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:40,280
So like stop it.
Like the scientists and

973
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:42,440
philosopher, especially
philosophers, but I mean, both

974
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:46,600
science and whatever, so slow
academia so slow.

975
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:49,840
They're going to study this 20
years after everyone's else.

976
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:52,600
Like is like, yeah, OK, dumb,
Which is the same thing that

977
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,480
happened with like, oh, exercise
can make you your mood feel

978
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:57,520
better.
That was, you know, when I in

979
00:57:57,520 --> 00:57:59,400
the 80s, that was an old wives
tale.

980
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:04,480
Like how can moving your body
help your mind?

981
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:09,480
There's no way.
It's ridiculous.

982
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:13,640
And so whatever, I mean, I don't
care.

983
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:19,080
I like, like, I just I'm done
with pleasing the world of

984
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:23,160
academia.
It's too slow that human, human

985
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:28,040
survival is on the line.
If we don't start recognizing

986
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,520
the value of all of our
capacities and that they are

987
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:35,400
real and that we can use them to
actually help us thrive, we're

988
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:37,240
duped.
I mean, this is when we need

989
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,760
those capacities.
So I'm sorry it's too slow.

990
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,800
So like, get over your bad self
or get out of the way.

991
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:48,240
So that's my message.
I think even the skeptics, even

992
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:51,000
the people who are skeptical of
it, I think there's often,

993
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:53,760
there's still this intuitive
curiosity as you just mentioned.

994
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:57,800
And, and, and with that
intuition comes the epistemology

995
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:00,360
that you speak about.
So you often integrate intuition

996
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:03,480
into reasoning frameworks.
How do you conceptualize

997
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,600
intuition?
Is it unconscious computation,

998
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,440
embodied inference, or something
completely different?

999
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,120
Yeah, into it.
So there's amazing people that

1000
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:17,680
have devoted their lives to
intuition and I sort of use what

1001
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:21,560
they say.
So he's like Gerd

1002
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:25,560
Gerdenspensburg ever.
I can't pronounce his last name.

1003
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:27,680
He said next long 'cause I
totally, you should not use

1004
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:28,600
that.
You should edit that out.

1005
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:34,040
But anyway, Gerd is a fantastic
example of someone who just is

1006
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:39,640
beautiful observer of and
integrator of intuition into

1007
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:41,760
trying to help decision makers
do what they're doing.

1008
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:48,040
That's fantastic.
So putting that aside, I am

1009
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:52,560
taking from those who study
intuition as their discipline.

1010
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:58,800
I'm taking intuition as an
umbrella category for what this

1011
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,600
what this unconscious processing
does to help us solve solve

1012
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:07,520
problems.
And then the the solution to the

1013
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:11,040
problem appears in our minds.
And then we're like, oh, OK,

1014
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:12,880
we'll do this.
And then we can have expert

1015
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:14,920
intuition, which is a form of
intuition.

1016
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:17,600
You do something long enough and
now you can solve problems much

1017
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:21,560
easier and you can point in
directions much more easily and

1018
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:24,440
accurately because you just have
all this unconscious information

1019
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:26,000
that's supporting, supporting
you.

1020
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:35,000
Now you can have creative
intuition, the way to sort of

1021
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:38,560
put yourself in a place where
you'll get the song lyrics or

1022
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:41,600
you'll get the result of this.
There's almost like expert

1023
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:43,160
intuition.
I'm just kind of expanding on

1024
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:45,640
that.
And you could have intuition

1025
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:48,920
that comes from other sources
like precognition, telepathy,

1026
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:54,520
clairvoyance, mediumship.
The mainstream world thinks that

1027
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:58,600
that's scary to talk about, or
that's not OK to talk about, or

1028
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:02,200
you're being irresponsible, But
like, whatever.

1029
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:05,120
There's plenty of evidence that
it's real by other scientists

1030
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:07,760
who are not considered part of
the mainstream world simply

1031
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,000
because they do rigorous
research in this other area.

1032
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:18,880
So I consider all of these human
capacities exceptional,

1033
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:23,160
exceptional capacities, but some
of them exceptional performer.

1034
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:26,320
They're using whatever they can
to solve a problem.

1035
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:30,880
When you have special forces
folks learning how to use remote

1036
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:35,160
viewing to try to figure out
where someone might be in a

1037
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:37,320
building that they have to
invade tomorrow and they've got

1038
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:42,480
no intelligence on, maybe
they're using their unconscious

1039
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:45,680
and expert intuition.
Maybe they're using psychic

1040
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:47,320
information.
Who cares?

1041
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,960
Because guess what?
It works, right?

1042
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:59,120
And so it's like, like embracing
what is scary to people about

1043
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:03,120
embracing all of who we are and
what we can do and asking the

1044
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:06,960
question of what that really is.
What is scary about just asking

1045
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:09,560
the question.
Like I've had people say, don't

1046
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:11,760
even ask the question.
It'll ruin your career.

1047
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:15,600
And I'm like, so like the deal
with science is you get to ask

1048
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:19,720
questions, even if they're
unpopular, even if you're scared

1049
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:22,520
that it's going to give you some
spooky answer, like ask it

1050
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:27,040
rigorously, use all your
training, ask it rigorously,

1051
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:31,360
learn about the field and and
find out what you find out.

1052
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:34,400
So when I started studying, can
I give you an example or did you

1053
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:37,280
have another question?
I got excited example.

1054
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:42,120
OK, when I started, when the Kai
Dickens from the Telepathy Tapes

1055
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:46,120
called me up and said, look, I
know you study exceptional

1056
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:47,560
experiences.
We're really interested in

1057
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:49,960
talking with you about.
Could we introduce you to some

1058
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:53,040
non speaking autistic people?
Find out like, is this telepathy

1059
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:55,680
thing real?
Like, you know, she's always

1060
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:59,400
trying to find out as a
documentarian, she's always

1061
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:01,560
trying to find out what's the
real story here, right?

1062
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:04,640
She was already working with
Diane Hennessy Powell.

1063
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:08,520
So but she wanted a different
read on it.

1064
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:11,480
And so I looked at that and I
thought, well, I would do this

1065
01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:14,160
differently.
You know, I would, I would do a

1066
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:16,040
protocol differently.
Every scientist has their like,

1067
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:17,920
oh, I'm going to do it this way,
I'm going to do it that way.

1068
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:21,400
So I would do it differently.
I would try to make sure there's

1069
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:23,280
no what's called sensory
leakage.

1070
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:27,320
So if you want to really prove
that something's telepathic,

1071
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,400
ideally the best way to do that
is you have people in separate

1072
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:36,560
rooms or separate buildings.
In other words, you don't want

1073
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:39,080
to worry about like, did they,
did someone breathe differently

1074
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:42,000
and that gave someone a cue or
did someone see something or

1075
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:44,320
like under their breath?
They said, yeah, who knows?

1076
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:45,600
Like you just don't want to
worry about that.

1077
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,840
You want to just get people far
enough away where that's just

1078
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:50,680
not going to happen.
Right.

1079
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:57,480
And so we ended up having the
experience, myself and my Co

1080
01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:01,680
investigator, Jeff Tarrant.
Doctor Jeff Tarrant, we were

1081
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:05,800
working on Zoom with a student
getting ready for our in person

1082
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:09,320
trials.
And the person who's really

1083
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:14,280
working with a student, Maria
Welch, was the one who's

1084
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:16,160
actually sitting with the
students.

1085
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:19,160
And I don't know if you're
familiar with autistic non

1086
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:21,440
speakers from the telephony
tapes, but they use letter

1087
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:25,560
boards often to communicate.
So this student was old enough

1088
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:28,520
to actually use a a keyboard,
had graduated to a keyboard.

1089
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:32,040
So he's keying in, you know, his
responses.

1090
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:36,760
And so we asked him, would you
like to try to read the mind of

1091
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:39,280
one of the researchers?
And he's like, yes, which one?

1092
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:41,800
He said, Jeff, Jeff is in
Oregon.

1093
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:44,720
He didn't know this, but Jeff is
in Oregon at the time.

1094
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:48,320
And so he reads the mind of
Jeff.

1095
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:52,680
And I don't want to go into any
more details because it's

1096
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:54,720
probably going to end up, maybe
it's going to end up in the

1097
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:56,440
movie or something.
And I'm going to keep that

1098
01:04:56,440 --> 01:05:03,960
surprise for the movie, but
that's just one example of how

1099
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:07,680
telepathic these students are.
And yet we have to be so

1100
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:11,520
careful.
And I, and then this points back

1101
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:13,040
to my question, what are you
afraid of?

1102
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:15,280
So I'm just going to answer my
own question.

1103
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:19,960
We have to be so careful because
there is a very real fear there.

1104
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:24,360
Once you realize, oh, something
has been unmasked, like the

1105
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:28,400
filter has been removed.
These students have some of

1106
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:32,800
these students with whom we've
worked have this clear capacity

1107
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:36,480
to receive that information that
other people apparently are

1108
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:38,880
suppressing or not getting or
whatever.

1109
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:43,680
And you kind of can't believe
it.

1110
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:50,040
And you and you kind of like at
first it's just like, OK, it's

1111
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:51,640
not real.
And then you think about all the

1112
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:53,560
ways that this could be
fraudulent and and that

1113
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:56,360
eventually when you see it
enough and you have enough

1114
01:05:56,360 --> 01:06:00,320
controls, you go, OK, this is
real.

1115
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:03,920
And, you know, I'm a person who
works in this field and I'm

1116
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:06,960
like, still like, OK, I still
have to go through all the

1117
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:08,960
things, right?
Oh, right.

1118
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:11,920
So this is really real because
I'm trained in this very

1119
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:13,880
mainstream way that says like, I
can't be real.

1120
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:16,640
So but that's good, you know,
keeps up the rigor.

1121
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:22,960
And then I realized why the fear
exists is because it is real.

1122
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:27,320
And some part of us knows that
this is real, that there's this

1123
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:31,640
connection between each of us
that we can't control, that is a

1124
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:39,400
little bit trickster like, and
that's terrifying.

1125
01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:43,680
And so that's what people are
scared of.

1126
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:48,560
And so how we can do it
responsibly and ethically is to

1127
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:52,680
point out that this is something
anyone can do.

1128
01:06:54,040 --> 01:07:00,120
And, and the non speakers are
showing us how, but we, we

1129
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:03,360
don't, we, we need to not
fetishize non speakers or

1130
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:08,520
whatever we need to do is look
at the nature of what

1131
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:13,760
information is and how it, how
it can move in, in the mind as

1132
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:15,280
different from in physical
reality.

1133
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:19,440
So and then of course being very
ethical about it.

1134
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:22,440
Yes, yeah, of course.
You mentioned that with the

1135
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:25,480
Telepathy tapes and your link
with that.

1136
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:28,800
Was that story the way you guys
got involved in the 1st place or

1137
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:31,080
was there more to it?
Or how did that relationship

1138
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:32,280
begin?
Oh.

1139
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:36,080
Kai called up and I mean, she
had read about my work online

1140
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:42,440
because I I'd probably very well
known for my precognition work

1141
01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:45,560
in the world of science.
And so I because I speak to

1142
01:07:45,560 --> 01:07:51,200
mainstream scientists as well as
non mainstream scientists, I

1143
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:52,600
sort of try to bridge those
worlds.

1144
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:55,960
And so that's probably why she
called.

1145
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:58,960
And I said, you know, I never
thought of working with non

1146
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:01,560
speakers before, but I work with
exceptional performers.

1147
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:04,520
And from what I hear on her
podcast, I had heard of her

1148
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:07,640
podcast and binged it.
These are exceptional

1149
01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:09,720
performers.
And so yeah, I want to find out

1150
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:11,400
what's going on.
Yes, please.

1151
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:17,319
And so I ended up because I
said, she said, well, but what

1152
01:08:17,319 --> 01:08:19,760
do you want your title?
Because I started, I first

1153
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:21,560
started as a contractor and then
I'm like, I don't want to do

1154
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:22,680
this.
I want to volunteer because I

1155
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:25,160
want to do science and I want to
get grants for it.

1156
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:27,560
And that is a different thing.
And she's like, great.

1157
01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:30,520
And we'll document the science
instead of, you know, paying you

1158
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:32,600
to help figure out where we
should go.

1159
01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:39,080
And so, but I made-up the name
Human potential Research Lead.

1160
01:08:40,359 --> 01:08:44,000
So that was cool.
But then what I did is on my own

1161
01:08:44,319 --> 01:08:48,040
with with my nonprofit with some
help, you know, in terms of

1162
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:53,439
introductions from Kai found
funding for the research and

1163
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:56,040
we're continuing to seek funding
for 2026.

1164
01:08:56,040 --> 01:08:58,439
We have a whole supporting non
speakers campaign that I'd like

1165
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:02,160
to talk about.
We're doing this experiment with

1166
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:06,160
transcranial direct current
stimulation to determine if that

1167
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:09,560
can help these students.
They have a lot of OCD motor

1168
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:12,040
issues.
Maybe we can we have some

1169
01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:16,319
indications, early indications
that maybe we can use very, very

1170
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:22,359
low current brain stimulation to
reduce those motor movements and

1171
01:09:22,359 --> 01:09:24,240
help increase their capacity to
communicate.

1172
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:27,760
So anyway, if anyone wants to
give us money for that, you

1173
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:30,080
should.
So did that answer your?

1174
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:31,960
Question.
Well, yeah, I think.

1175
01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:35,439
And it also opens up the door to
your current passion and why

1176
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:37,399
you're in this at the moment,
because it's something you're

1177
01:09:37,399 --> 01:09:41,560
very passionate about.
What is and it's you've stayed

1178
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:44,200
and it's kept you there.
So anything about that you want

1179
01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:46,319
to mention, anything about that
you want to talk about and what

1180
01:09:46,319 --> 01:09:48,520
keeps you?
Yes, yeah.

1181
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:53,120
Well, the thing I haven't said
so earlier when you said, you

1182
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:56,120
know, has anything changed your
world view And I was like, no,

1183
01:09:56,760 --> 01:10:00,560
that's not really true.
Obviously my world view has

1184
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:04,320
shifted with the data as I start
to discover them, and my world

1185
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:07,600
view has shifted again since
I've met non speakers Before

1186
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:09,680
that, it started working with
non speakers.

1187
01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:16,760
Before that I thought, you know,
the psychic ability stuff is

1188
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:19,520
powerful, but it's only so
accurate.

1189
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:23,080
It's really hard to get at.
There's no way to really get at

1190
01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:25,080
it.
Unconditional love really helps.

1191
01:10:25,080 --> 01:10:27,480
That's true.
But you know, I was kind of

1192
01:10:27,480 --> 01:10:35,080
thinking it, it's so far from
what it if there's no way to be

1193
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:39,120
a healthy human being and also
have this kind of access, I

1194
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:41,920
still think that it's really
hard for non speakers to operate

1195
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:44,520
in the world.
They have difficulty, but they

1196
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:47,880
often have apraxia, which is an
ability to which is an inability

1197
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:50,240
to to control your body in the
way that you want it to be.

1198
01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:52,240
And that applies to their speech
as well.

1199
01:10:56,000 --> 01:11:03,320
But they have this, the ones
that I've been working with have

1200
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:06,880
this wisdom, they have this
connection to wisdom.

1201
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:11,200
And it just, to me, it just so
highlights the connection to

1202
01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:14,720
wisdom that we can all have and
can move towards if we had a

1203
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:17,600
culture like the non speakers
have this culture.

1204
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:19,720
And that's what keeps me around.
And that's what actually made me

1205
01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:21,880
want to.
I started writing my book the

1206
01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:25,640
week after Kai called me to say,
Hey, we want you to get involved

1207
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:29,360
with Telepathy Tapes.
And I had all I got in that book

1208
01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:31,400
first was this.
And the book is called Have a

1209
01:11:31,400 --> 01:11:36,120
Nice Disclosure.
And all I got was the table of

1210
01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:40,640
contents, literally like the
chapter titles and then the

1211
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:44,960
section titles.
And I was like, OK, good.

1212
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:47,920
Now have to write the book and I
still don't know what it's

1213
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:51,520
about.
So, so but I I sat down and

1214
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:53,960
started writing the the the book
is what came out and it is my

1215
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:56,840
favorite book I've written.
It has the most of everything

1216
01:11:56,840 --> 01:11:58,840
that I've wanted to say and the
least of anything I didn't want

1217
01:11:58,840 --> 01:11:59,880
to say.
I have any book that I've

1218
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:04,280
written and it's a very short
book, but a lot of the wisdom in

1219
01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:09,720
there, I think comes from the
culture that I see with the non

1220
01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:12,720
speakers and what they call the
hill, which is their name for

1221
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:14,800
where they could they have the
experience of connecting

1222
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:19,040
telepathically.
And now I have the experience of

1223
01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:23,800
seeing them connect
telepathically, which blew me

1224
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:30,080
away.
So this is where the roots are

1225
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:33,280
intermingled like they like they
that's that's where that culture

1226
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:37,440
lives.
And if they, if we could create

1227
01:12:37,440 --> 01:12:43,040
a culture that supported that
and in each other, I feel like

1228
01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:47,000
we would have, it's just like
supported access, supported the

1229
01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:50,040
experience of accessing
universal love so that we're

1230
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:53,440
feeling more unconditional love.
That's where I think the non

1231
01:12:53,440 --> 01:12:56,640
speakers are taking us if we
listen to them like so, so

1232
01:12:56,640 --> 01:13:00,320
there's a, there's a section in
the, in the book called love

1233
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:03,040
revolution.
And I really think that's where

1234
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:07,000
the physics of love and, and
where extraordinary capacities

1235
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:13,280
and all of these and even AI can
actually take us into a love

1236
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:18,680
revolution where of course
companies wouldn't create

1237
01:13:19,520 --> 01:13:22,160
anything that harms people.
Once they realize something

1238
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:26,120
harms, harms people, obviously
they would change it because

1239
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:30,480
they understand like making
money isn't actually the goal

1240
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:39,400
that we have enough resources to
to have a world in which people

1241
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:44,600
are loved and we have enough
resources to solve the mental

1242
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:51,400
illness that creates autocracy.
And so that's the future.

1243
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:53,960
So I do think that the non
speakers are really taking us

1244
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:56,120
into the future.
And that's what has me hooked.

1245
01:13:57,480 --> 01:13:59,760
And that's really what wrote the
book is that is that those

1246
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:04,160
learnings about that
relationship as well as my own

1247
01:14:04,160 --> 01:14:09,080
discovery and remembrance of my
own disclosure of my own

1248
01:14:09,080 --> 01:14:15,840
experience being in a gifted
students class in 7th grade

1249
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:19,120
where I was clearly being tested
for psychic capacities.

1250
01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:23,200
I was being followed tons of
cognitive testing and weird

1251
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:25,920
sessions.
I don't remember with counselor

1252
01:14:26,440 --> 01:14:30,120
that I dreaded and then follow
up surveillance.

1253
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:35,920
And so I write about that in the
book too, as an example of this

1254
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:38,920
is what we do when we don't
understand something.

1255
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:44,280
We study it in kind of a messed
up way because we're coming from

1256
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:49,000
fear.
And I do not blame any of the

1257
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:54,120
people who who did all that to
me and my, my fellow students.

1258
01:14:55,400 --> 01:14:58,720
But there are people who are
doing that to autistic non

1259
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:04,400
speakers, you know, as we speak
to try to get AT, get AT and

1260
01:15:04,400 --> 01:15:10,480
harness their capacities.
And that's not OK without, you

1261
01:15:10,480 --> 01:15:14,560
know, consent, informed consent
from their parents and from the

1262
01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:17,080
students and a sense from the
students.

1263
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:19,680
It's not OK.
And so I really would like to be

1264
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:26,800
part of changing that and and
realizing that we can learn from

1265
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:31,800
non speakers how to access these
capacities.

1266
01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:35,760
We don't have to unfairly make
their lives more traumatic than

1267
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:38,920
they already are by having these
different bodies and these

1268
01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:40,120
different capacities.
So.

1269
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:43,520
Yeah, I think I, I haven't read
the book yet.

1270
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:46,000
I'm looking forward to reading
it, but I read the Forward by

1271
01:15:46,440 --> 01:15:49,720
Ross Coltart talking about that
exact experience.

1272
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:53,160
It must be quite fascinating
because you've got a, a dad

1273
01:15:53,160 --> 01:15:55,120
who's a physicist, a mom who's a
therapist.

1274
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:57,840
You go into neuroscience almost
bridging these two gaps, kinda

1275
01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:01,440
in a sense.
And then you're able to look

1276
01:16:01,440 --> 01:16:06,160
back now with, with a very, very
scientific slash philosophical

1277
01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:09,120
mind and understand so many
things that's happened in the

1278
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:11,680
past.
What about working at Telepathy

1279
01:16:11,680 --> 01:16:14,640
tapes led to that exact moment
where you're like, OK, have a

1280
01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:16,880
nice disclosure.
What is the exact link?

1281
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:20,120
And what, what really gave you
this idea to name it that?

1282
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:24,440
Oh, interesting.
I think, again, I'm not into

1283
01:16:24,440 --> 01:16:30,240
causality, but I think I'm going
to tell the story that that the

1284
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:34,240
first time that we worked, I
worked with a student, I was so

1285
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:38,080
neurotic.
I was like, OK, I want to, I

1286
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:42,080
want to, I'm on, I was on Zoom.
I want to talk to the parent,

1287
01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:45,120
get the parent on Zoom.
All right, is it OK if I record

1288
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:49,520
you talking to you about this?
OK, Matt, let's let's record us

1289
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:52,640
talking to your student about
this, about what we're going to

1290
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:55,000
do, OK.
And then every time asking

1291
01:16:55,000 --> 01:16:58,920
permission, even though we had
consent forms, etcetera.

1292
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:02,640
We went through all that making
sure the student knew the

1293
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:07,120
information and gave a sense,
but still, like, we're

1294
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:08,240
recording.
Is that OK?

1295
01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:10,520
We're recording.
This is what I'm thinking.

1296
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:12,440
Just just incredible
transparency.

1297
01:17:12,440 --> 01:17:14,240
And I was like, why am I so
neurotic about this?

1298
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:17,160
And that's I started thinking,
well, yeah, of course.

1299
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:22,720
Like here I am studying,
essentially studying what was

1300
01:17:22,720 --> 01:17:27,120
studied in me.
And I'm wanting to do it in a

1301
01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:30,640
way that doesn't abuse or hurt
or neglect and that in fact

1302
01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:36,680
uplifts these students.
And then I was like, holy cow.

1303
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:40,960
And then I started looking back
at the things and just, and

1304
01:17:40,960 --> 01:17:45,800
that's, you know, that happened.
Another moment that happened was

1305
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:53,480
before that when I before that
when I applied for a federal job

1306
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:57,520
at in the US government and I
was called by a recruiter

1307
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:03,760
several days after I had filed a
FOIA Freedom of Information Act

1308
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:08,480
request for any files related to
the gifted program I was in.

1309
01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:11,800
And the recruiter called me a
few days later and told me they

1310
01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:13,120
wanted me for this particular
job.

1311
01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:18,080
And then after that very short
period of time, all that the

1312
01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:19,480
timeline is actually written in
my journal.

1313
01:18:19,480 --> 01:18:21,160
So I put it in the book, but I
forget it right now.

1314
01:18:21,960 --> 01:18:28,200
Very short period of time I hear
from FOIA saying do you still

1315
01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:31,240
want to Basically, do you still
want us to process this request?

1316
01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:37,880
And I say maybe that's a maybe
they want me not to have any

1317
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:40,440
outside standing FOIA request if
I'm applying for a job with a

1318
01:18:40,440 --> 01:18:43,440
final government.
OK, so I said no, fine, drop it.

1319
01:18:44,160 --> 01:18:46,840
3 minutes later I get a call
from my recruiter at the final

1320
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:53,720
government who says, oh, maybe
we'd like you for this job, but

1321
01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:56,240
you passed the first interview
that I'm like, I'm sorry.

1322
01:18:58,200 --> 01:19:02,840
So, so that also made me start
looking like there is a

1323
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:05,920
relation, like, you know, even
though I'm not one for

1324
01:19:05,920 --> 01:19:09,960
causality, those things seem so
related in time,

1325
01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:12,240
uncharacteristically related in
time.

1326
01:19:13,560 --> 01:19:18,600
So what's the deal?
And that was a moment.

1327
01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:23,360
It's it's, it's kind of freaky.
It's like, what is what is going

1328
01:19:23,360 --> 01:19:24,080
on?
And.

1329
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:27,440
Yeah, sorry.
No.

1330
01:19:27,440 --> 01:19:30,560
So you continue.
Oh, so have a nice disclosure

1331
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:34,440
comes from this idea that
disclosure comes from inside.

1332
01:19:34,440 --> 01:19:36,800
Like I, I want to twist this on
its head.

1333
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:39,560
We have this idea that there's
this big powerful government or

1334
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:42,600
a big powerful corporation or
whatever that holds all the

1335
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:45,120
information and we just pray
that they will release it at

1336
01:19:45,120 --> 01:19:47,080
some point and disclose what I
mean, it's just like gives them

1337
01:19:47,120 --> 01:19:49,360
all the power.
It's like, guess what?

1338
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:54,600
That's false.
We each have the power to

1339
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:59,240
disclose what's true in our
lives and we can actually do it

1340
01:19:59,240 --> 01:20:01,720
in a way that's nice.
We can do it in a way that's

1341
01:20:01,720 --> 01:20:03,600
full of love.
We can do it in a way that loves

1342
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:08,160
ourselves and loves others.
We can do it in a responsible

1343
01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:13,200
way is and this is what I
experienced, you know, for me,

1344
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:17,200
I'm in a place where I don't
place blame on anyone.

1345
01:20:17,280 --> 01:20:22,120
Everyone was doing the best they
can always, even if they are

1346
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:25,560
intentions were evil.
For some reason, the universe

1347
01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:28,120
had created evil intentions
inside of them.

1348
01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:36,520
That's unfortunate.
It hurt a lot of people, but we

1349
01:20:36,520 --> 01:20:39,600
can do better.
So if we're going to have

1350
01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:41,840
disclosure, let's claim it in
ourselves.

1351
01:20:43,240 --> 01:20:45,040
So have a nice disclosure is
about that.

1352
01:20:45,800 --> 01:20:47,600
It's a, it's a, it's a beautiful
title, I think.

1353
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:50,920
Judy, when you look back, how
old were you when this happened?

1354
01:20:52,120 --> 01:20:54,120
7th grade so I was 12.
OK.

1355
01:20:55,320 --> 01:20:58,360
And, and at this point, were you
already making journals and were

1356
01:20:58,360 --> 01:21:01,400
you documented as a?
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1357
01:21:01,400 --> 01:21:03,120
No.
So I had started, they, they,

1358
01:21:03,440 --> 01:21:06,280
they started cognitive testing
me in like kindergarten.

1359
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:10,960
And when I, you know, was it
like the eighth grade level and

1360
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:13,800
all the subjects, they were
like, OK, we're going to watch

1361
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:15,840
this one.
I mean, very clearly they would

1362
01:21:15,840 --> 01:21:18,760
pull me out, you know, I didn't
have to go to recess if I didn't

1363
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:21,840
want to because I could computer
code or whatever, you know.

1364
01:21:22,360 --> 01:21:24,880
So like all the, all that stuff
they do when they're like this

1365
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:28,960
one, there's something going on,
you know, I didn't mind that.

1366
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:35,280
Like that was nice.
It's the other stuff.

1367
01:21:35,440 --> 01:21:40,200
It's like it's the surveillance
and lack of information and

1368
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:44,200
having a drink, a pink drink and
telling.

1369
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:47,600
You very, it's very strange.
I mean, what, what really, what

1370
01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:49,640
were they trying to do?
Do you think what I mean?

1371
01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:51,960
Obviously getting information,
trying to understand, trying to

1372
01:21:51,960 --> 01:21:54,080
harness.
What were they doing to test it?

1373
01:21:54,080 --> 01:21:56,000
Were they?
As a scientist today, when you

1374
01:21:56,000 --> 01:21:58,120
look back, do you think it was
actually good scientific

1375
01:21:58,120 --> 01:22:06,600
techniques?
I think what I really think is

1376
01:22:06,600 --> 01:22:11,480
that they were following
children of people who had been

1377
01:22:11,480 --> 01:22:16,120
exposed to radiation or children
themselves who've been exposed

1378
01:22:16,120 --> 01:22:18,280
to radiation, or they were
exposing children to radiation.

1379
01:22:18,280 --> 01:22:21,560
I doubt the latter, that it's
possible, like maybe very small

1380
01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:22,480
doses.
I don't know.

1381
01:22:23,520 --> 01:22:31,720
I think they were trying to
study the range of I know this

1382
01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:33,680
sounds like a comic book, but
there are reasons that I

1383
01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:36,000
described in the book that I
think this it sounds like a

1384
01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:39,560
comic book like Peter was bitten
by a radioactive spider and now

1385
01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:43,440
he's Spider Man.
It's ridiculous.

1386
01:22:44,320 --> 01:22:47,240
But I do think there's evidence
from what I've uncovered about

1387
01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:51,040
the program that they were for
some reason there was a lot of

1388
01:22:51,040 --> 01:22:55,960
pressure to try to understand
non non ionizing radiation and

1389
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:58,680
ionizing radiation and the
effects on human cognition and

1390
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:03,000
performance.
I don't know why I give some

1391
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:05,720
theories in the book and they're
all just complete speculation.

1392
01:23:08,240 --> 01:23:13,440
I think some of it was decent
science for the day because I

1393
01:23:13,440 --> 01:23:15,480
don't remember what they were
doing with me in that room.

1394
01:23:15,480 --> 01:23:19,800
I can't speak to that science.
The follow up surveillance, some

1395
01:23:19,800 --> 01:23:23,600
of it was really good.
Like I'm I'm impressed by it,

1396
01:23:25,160 --> 01:23:27,160
freaked out by it, but impressed
by it.

1397
01:23:30,560 --> 01:23:34,040
I think people just try to do
something that they think is

1398
01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:37,640
important and they think that
they're, the consequences are

1399
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:40,440
too high for them to be
transparent about it.

1400
01:23:41,400 --> 01:23:45,000
There must have been some really
high consequences if they're

1401
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:49,680
transparent about it for them to
keep it classified or to keep

1402
01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:52,600
it, I don't know if it was
classified by the government or,

1403
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:57,200
or just proprietarily by some
contractor.

1404
01:23:59,480 --> 01:24:05,760
Yeah, I, I, people do all sorts
of things for reasons where

1405
01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:08,080
they.
This is part of the problem of

1406
01:24:08,080 --> 01:24:12,480
causality actually, is people
believe the story, like if we

1407
01:24:12,480 --> 01:24:14,320
don't do this, then this will
happen.

1408
01:24:15,520 --> 01:24:18,320
It's like actually, you don't
know that, you know that you

1409
01:24:18,320 --> 01:24:22,560
believe that.
You're afraid that if we don't

1410
01:24:22,560 --> 01:24:24,240
do this, this other thing will
happen.

1411
01:24:24,720 --> 01:24:27,800
But the universe plays all sorts
of tricks with things that show

1412
01:24:27,800 --> 01:24:32,720
up and change the way things go.
So when someone's telling you

1413
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:36,400
this is a really good like
psyops resilience piece of

1414
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:40,640
advice at the end of our little
podcast, but when people tell

1415
01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:45,560
you if you don't do XY will
happen, they're trying to

1416
01:24:45,560 --> 01:24:47,680
manipulate you.
Now they may be trying to

1417
01:24:47,680 --> 01:24:50,720
manipulate you in some positive
direction, like a parent trying

1418
01:24:50,720 --> 01:24:52,480
to tell you if you don't brush
your teeth, you're going to get

1419
01:24:52,480 --> 01:24:54,920
cavities.
But they're trying to control

1420
01:24:54,920 --> 01:24:58,680
your behavior.
So 'cause that's the claims of

1421
01:24:58,680 --> 01:25:02,000
causality are can be very
manipulative.

1422
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:07,560
And so one way to do it
differently is to say, you know

1423
01:25:07,560 --> 01:25:08,960
what?
There's a correlation between

1424
01:25:08,960 --> 01:25:11,080
people who don't brush their
teeth and people who have their

1425
01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:13,000
teeth fall out.
And it's a high correlation.

1426
01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:15,280
Like you don't brush your teeth,
like your teeth might fall out.

1427
01:25:15,800 --> 01:25:17,880
Like you could, you know, that
you might get infected and fall

1428
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:21,320
out.
Then maybe that's a correlation.

1429
01:25:21,920 --> 01:25:23,160
Let's see what happens with your
teeth.

1430
01:25:29,160 --> 01:25:32,200
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, look, I think it's

1431
01:25:32,600 --> 01:25:34,040
it's been a fascinating
conversation.

1432
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:36,720
Thank you so much for your time.
I think let's end off on a on a

1433
01:25:36,720 --> 01:25:40,560
very human positive note.
Your work spans well-being AI,

1434
01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:44,720
love, time, meaning so much.
What kind of future do you hope

1435
01:25:44,720 --> 01:25:48,200
for humanity intellectually,
spiritually, and

1436
01:25:48,200 --> 01:25:52,320
technologically?
Oh, it's very simple.

1437
01:25:52,320 --> 01:25:59,040
I hope that we, more of us can
access universal love so that we

1438
01:25:59,040 --> 01:26:02,240
feel unconditional love, and
then everything will fall out of

1439
01:26:02,240 --> 01:26:06,320
that.
So better behavior will fall out

1440
01:26:06,320 --> 01:26:11,360
of that naturally, even though
magically nothing needs to

1441
01:26:11,360 --> 01:26:13,240
change.
It changes everything.

1442
01:26:14,960 --> 01:26:16,520
Well, then I think that's a
beautiful way to end.

1443
01:26:16,520 --> 01:26:19,360
Julia, Thank you so much, and I
hope you have a nice disclosure.

1444
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:22,320
We're getting all podcasts to
say that.

1445
01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:28,280
Yes, have a nice disclosure.
Tenant, thank you so much for

1446
01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:29,440
that.
But on a serious note, thank you

1447
01:26:29,440 --> 01:26:30,680
very much.
It was a pleasure to host you

1448
01:26:30,680 --> 01:26:33,920
and keep up the great work.
Very diverse, very unique and

1449
01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:36,360
very intriguing.
I must say I've I've enjoyed

1450
01:26:36,360 --> 01:26:38,520
reading your work and appreciate
your time well.

1451
01:26:39,160 --> 01:26:41,280
Thank you.
You've really asked wonderful

1452
01:26:41,280 --> 01:26:45,320
questions and you were so
tolerant of my, of my, of my

1453
01:26:45,320 --> 01:26:48,760
radical maneuvers.
Yeah, it was, it was wonderful.

1454
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:50,600
I mean, I love doing this.
This is a pleasure for me and

1455
01:26:50,600 --> 01:26:52,400
it's a privilege.
So thank you so much.

1456
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:54,080
That's.
Awesome take.

1457
01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:54,680
Care, Julia.