Brian Keating: What Is Space, Time, & Matter? The Origin & Evolution Of The Universe

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Brian, your podcast Into the
Impossible and your work in

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general, you focus on the origin
of space-time and matter.

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Well, I mean, the podcast
branches off into various

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directions, but your work
focuses on this primarily.

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And I think the best place to
start would be how do you define

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space-time and meta?
Yeah, why don't you give me an

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easy question like what?
What happened before The Big

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Bang?
I guess we will get.

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That's still coming.
So space-time matter are sort

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of, you know, psychological
crutches that we humans use to

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understand how the world around
us appears and what it means to

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make sense of the world.
Really first just, you know,

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begins with giving things names.
So we call space, you know, the

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region that we can access either
by sight, by motion, the

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different points in the universe
that are accessible to us.

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And space can be completely
independent of matter or time.

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But in the last 100 years we've
discovered they're actually a

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deep interconnection between the
properties of space and time and

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matter.
And that at first it was

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realized by Einstein and
Minkowski and many others that

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space and time were essentially
unified together in what was

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later called space-time.
And that is now, instead of only

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addressing a point by its
three-dimensional coordinates

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up, down, left, right, backwards
and forwards, or north-south,

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east, West and and up and down,
we have to also specify the time

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at which an event occurs.
But the other thing about the

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discoveries of the last 100
years is that neither space nor

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time are fundamental or
independent or even

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independently definable in that
they're malleable, they change,

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and they they depend on motion.
So space, if you think about

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space and time separately, you
can do so as long as there's no

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motion or matter.
But once you bring in motion,

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what is motion?
What is, you know, speed?

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It's how many miles or kmh per
second per, you know, light

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year, light years per per hour
that's something is moving at.

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So you need a space and you need
a time.

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So the thing that unifies them
together is speed, velocity.

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And that was realized that if
you have speed is sort of the

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interconnecting tissue between
space and time.

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And you also have the fact that
velocity is relative.

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That you in a car or have you
ever been on a subway or on a

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train and right next to you is
another train and that train

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starts moving or maybe you start
moving and you cannot tell the

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difference. 2U moving objects,
neither one can say which one's

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moving and which one's
stationary.

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Each one feels they're
stationary, but neither one can.

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So therefore, if you link space
and time together via velocity,

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and velocity is relative, that
means space and time are both

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relative and they can shift and
change and warp.

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And that's true in the absence
of matter.

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And when you add in matter, all
hell breaks loose, because now

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matter effects how space-time
connections are related to one

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another.
So to get to a point in the

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distant universe, you now have
to take into account matter,

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because matter warps and changes
trajectories of beams of light,

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of rockets, of astronauts
floating around.

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So it's insufficient to just
have one or the other.

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You need to actually have all
three of those together and

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they're woven together in
intimate and highly predictive

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fashion.
You know, now lately there's

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been an incredible resurgent and
resurgence in the kind of mimo

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sphere on, on X and, and
Instagram of everything is is up

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for debate.
The moon landing never happened.

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There's no such thing as an
atom.

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Atoms are just vibrations of
sound and sound is has all these

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properties and and all sorts of
true nutty pseudo scientific.

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Periodic table is kind of
bisexual tones.

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That's right, yes.
So in that sense, we have to be

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very careful in that we need to
be precise as scientists and

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specify when something sounds
weird.

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It's not the, you know, two
things that sound weird are not

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the same.
The fact that if you're in a,

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you know, car, you know, driving
at a fraction of the speed of

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light that actually you get, you
get shorter and compressed

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relative to an external
observer.

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That's a fact that's verifiable.
There's evidence for it.

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It sounds crazy 'cause it
doesn't comport with our

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everyday knowledge.
And if you say if atom has a

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tone and everything's made of
silicone, which is not even an

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atom.
But if you say that everything

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is just a harmonic of a, of an
atom called silicone or carbon

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or you also are speaking
something that sounds weird.

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And that's because it's to utter
nonsense in BS.

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So we have to be careful and
these things sound weird and you

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always have to ask what is the
foundational bedrock truth that

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can give us information that we
can trust?

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Not rely on an expert or
whatever, but rely on evidence.

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And that's where my branch of
science comes in.

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It's experimental physics.
I'm not a theorist.

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I'm not coming up with multi
dimensional wormholes to

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teleport to planet Zorklan 16.
I am measuring the universe,

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collecting data from the
earliest photons that ever

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existed to be produced to travel
to my telescopes and use that to

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transfer knowledge about every
single thing they encountered in

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their nearly 14 billion year
long life.

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Often, often think about when I
was a child, how badly I wanted

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to be an astrophysicist and and
this, this stuck with me all my

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life.
I've loved mathematics and

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physics so much.
I mean, to a point where Brian

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literally on my chest, I have, I
don't know if you remember Carl

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Sagan's Voyager one, the Golden
Record.

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It's got the die.
How do I remember it?

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I I talked to the his widow
Androuian.

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She recorded her brain waves a
week after she fell in love with

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him.
And they put that on that disc

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that I'm guessing is somewhere
attached to your body.

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I literally took the same image
of the, you know, the pulse on

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map.
I've got a son at the centre of

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my chest tattooed with the
pulsar map at the centre.

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That's how much I loved that
it's.

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It's like a it's not a system
tattooing your tattooing your

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address in case an alien comes
by and sex you up.

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Which is also in the news
lately, right?

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But it's, it's, it's pretty
incredible story because I, I

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mean, I did that.
I remember the time thinking

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born from stars fed by a star,
the Sun's literally our life

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force.
This is this is such a cool

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story, but people don't talk
about it with the awe and, and,

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and the sort of poetic nature
that the story really has.

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And you sort of filling that
void that seemed to be missing

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for a little bit.
I felt like we had those people

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around, the theorists, you know,
your Neil degrasse Tyson's, all

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the people, the Lawrence
Krauss's, the guys who come out,

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talk about these, make it pretty
cool.

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And an experimentalist suddenly
shows up and now is starting to

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dominate this public sphere.
As an experimentalist, how do

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you take certain theories, and
which theories do you give the

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most credence to when you're
trying to approach certain

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topics?
What is the criteria you're

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using to make this search more
plausible for yourself?

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My hero is Galileo Galilei, who,
you know, is really credited,

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quite rightly so, with the
foundational application of the

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scientific method in history.
There are others that came up

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with different ideas about it,
but he was the first person to

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use evidence in his case,
evidence collected from a

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telescope to justify and prove
hypotheses about the universe.

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He also did experiments on
gravity, famously dropping

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objects of different of
different masses off of the

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leaning tower of Pisa and seeing
which one hit the ground first.

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And those are revolutionary
because it was just accepted

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that these experts from 2000
years ago were such geniuses

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about logic and and geometry
that of course they knew about

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physics too, even though it's
not possible to really find

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something that Aristotle did
that was actually literally

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factually correct.
But but anyway, he was a

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brilliant man.
And he was also canonized as a

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St. which is which is quite
interesting.

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But in terms of what Galileo did
is he revolutionized the

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empiricism protocols.
So how do you go about

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justifying, validating what is
true?

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He did that in a book, his last
second to last book called the

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Dialogue.
The Dialogue, which was a

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comparison between the two
different world systems, the

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Greek one and the and the
Copernican system.

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But that was really based on his
observations from 30 years

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earlier in the Starry Messenger
where he saw that Jupiter had

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these four stars.
He called them that went around

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it, but he knew that they were
moons.

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And so it was not possible
anymore for the Earth to be the

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center of the solar system,
which was the whole universe.

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So he really revolutionized the
entire cosmos at that time.

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He said, well, it may be that
there are multiple centers, but

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there's no such thing as a, as,
as Earth being the center of the

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universe.
And that gave credence.

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He also made mistakes because he
said that the Earth goes around

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the sun and he could prove that
by the tides on the Earth, which

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is not true.
But but leaving that aside, he

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did the first scientific
application of a of of data

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collection to prove a
hypothesis.

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His lesser known book is called
the statutory, which means the

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sagacious one, or it means we
translate it now to be called

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the assayer.
So what is an assayer?

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An assayer is a individual, a
scientist who's tasked with

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falsifying the claims of
alchemists.

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The Alchemist would take
something made of metal and they

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would rub it on.
He would rub it.

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The assayer would rub it on a
piece of material called the

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touchstone, and the way that it
rubbed off would illuminate if

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it was really gold, or LED, or
was painted or or what have you.

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So you could actually prove by
using something that is

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intrinsically almost worthless,
like a slab of rock has almost

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no value.
By rubbing onto it an object

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that purported to be gold, you
could actually prove that it was

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gold and therefore have a very
high value of a piece of rock.

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You know, it's just a different
type of rock.

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And so that process is the one I
try to apply.

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I don't have any special
theoretical abilities,

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mathematical abilities.
I can only do the following.

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I can only ascertain what is
possible to measure and then, in

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using the knowledge of what's
possible to measure about the

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early universe, use that fact
and use those potential

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experiments.
Design in my mind and in reality

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with my colleagues, an
experiment to test these

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theories of everything and the
claims by theorists, which are

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easy to produce.
It's easy to produce a theory

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doesn't mean that they're
simpletons that are smarter than

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me in most cases, but it's easy
to produce a theory, especially

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when they can't be tested.
If you say I need the particle

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accelerator the size of the
solar system or the Galaxy in

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order to prove that I'm right,
and I get 10 emails a day from

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people that have solved the
theory of everything that you

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know π is a, is a rational
number and it's related to the

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electrons charge.
And all you need is a particle

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accelerator the size of the, you
know, the Earth's orbit.

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So all these things are, are
nonsensical, but but they're

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worse than nonsensical because
you can't test them.

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You can't prove them wrong
because there's no experiment

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you could conceive of to do it.
So I'd like to not waste my

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time.
And we only have a finite time

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on earth when our minds and our
bodies are connected, right?

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And so I want to apply those as
much as possible to practical,

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pragmatic exploration of what we
can measure.

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So that's what I do.
I try to prove people wrong, not

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prove people right.
Since starting Into the

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Impossible, do you feel that
certain views that you held very

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strongly have changed over time?
Because for me, when I started

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this podcast exploring different
theories of consciousness,

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trying to understand the
fundamental nature of reality,

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talking to all these experts,
we've had many guests that are

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very similar, a lot of
parallels.

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It really has changed my views,
which is pretty crazy because

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coming in I had such firm
beliefs.

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Do you feel this has impacted
you in a similar way since

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starting yours?
It, it, it has, but more so by

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sort of teaching me the, the
kind of skills and motivations

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that I need to examine in myself
that, you know, it's impossible

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not to have preconceived notions
or ideas or theories, but to

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sort of be, you know, cognizant
of them.

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And beware that it's very
tempting to follow a trend or,

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you know, want to be in on a, on
a, on a phenomenon or get the

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early jump on something.
It's also tempting to want to be

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a contrarian and a pessimist.
There are people that only are

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pessimists.
And so for me, the, the hardest

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part has been learning from the
greatest scientist alive. 19

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Nobel Prize winners, you know, 4
Pulitzer Prize winner authors to

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astronauts, billionaires,
etcetera, that, you know, the

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truly exceptional minds balance
the traits of confidence and

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humility.
And there are some that are

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purely egoic and hutzpitic and
you know, they, they just really

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have have a self fulfillment
that's unmatched and, and some

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of them deserve it.
You know, talking to someone who

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00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,680
won the Nobel Prize and you
know, he's, he's pretty full of

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himself.
That's, you know, you could sort

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of expect that's the highest
accolade on Earth, you know, bar

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none.
There's nothing even close to it

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in terms of intellectual
accomplishments.

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And so from that perspective,
it's natural to expect that.

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But the surprising thing is I
found very few of those types of

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people, most people are
extremely humble.

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They almost feel that
serendipity, luck played a huge

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role in it.
And for doing that and looking

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at what these people want to
tell their stories, mostly I

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have on authors.
Occasionally I have on, you

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00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:58,600
know, just just scientists, but
they're also authors.

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Rarely will I have on just
somebody who's neither, you

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00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,800
know, doesn't, hasn't written
anything, hasn't, hasn't

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00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:06,560
published anything
scientifically.

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You know, I, I have on
occasionally had people's on

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that and they're interesting for
other reasons.

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But the main thing is everyone
has a story.

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Yeah, and the key thing I'm
trying to do better is dig

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deeper into their stories and,
and follow up in a deeper way,

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in a more meaningful way,
engaging them more almost, you

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00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,320
know, kind of doing something
that that great scientist named

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Oprah Winfrey does.
You know, she she treats every

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person as if they're the most
important person on Earth.

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And it's hard over Zoom.
I actually, I, I don't know

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where you are.
Where are you located?

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South Africa.
Cape Town.

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Oh, OK, I noticed the accent.
But I, you know, I never wanna

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never wanna assume.
I know that you guys have the

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best names in the world.
I, I have someone named Bird.

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I know S La Jolla, where where
UCSD is based, is a second home

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for South Africans.
And I have friends from Durban

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all the way down to the Cape and
and beyond.

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So.
I was born, it's a real one, in

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Johannesburg but raised in
Durban, but now I live in in

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Cape Town.
Yeah, so and I've never been.

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I was invited in 2020 right
before the pandemic and never

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00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,760
made it but but I'll get there.
I need to check it off good.

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00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,760
Job I'll I'll definitely give
you the VIP treatment.

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And that will be good because an
in person podcast is just so

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much different.
You know, I've had the honor of

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00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:29,160
being on with Lex Friedman and
Joe Rogan and Tom Billieu and

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00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,920
Jordan Peterson.
And those are all in person.

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00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,280
And there's there's a reason all
those people and Oprah Winfrey,

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00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,160
I've been on Oprah Winfrey.
But Oprah, if you're listening

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00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,800
to Tevin's podcast, please reach
out to the both of us.

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00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,880
But we'll make a dynamic duo.
But the point is, you know,

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00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:48,160
there's a connection element.
It's very hard to do over over

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00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,080
an Internet connection, no
matter how fast.

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00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,360
So you do a good job of it and
you make people feel at home in

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00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,080
it.
But the main thing is how do you

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00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,040
demystify what scientists do and
destigmatize, you know, I always

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00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,240
joke that, you know, how do you
know a scientist is outgoing

296
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:04,839
because he looks at your feet
when he talks to you.

297
00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:09,839
So how do you kind of avoid that
in a in a zoom session?

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00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:11,880
Well, it might be easier in a
zoom because you're looking at a

299
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,640
camera, but but I'm trying to
bring that sort of humanization

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00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:21,000
of my subjects and of the guests
on the podcast to to light.

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But the other thing to Tevin
that's really important to do.

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And I don't know how you feel
about it, but maybe you'll let

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00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,960
me know what you do.
But quite frankly, have you ever

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00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:31,720
been in a situation you're
talking to somebody and they're

305
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,400
just talking nonsense?
Like you just know they might be

306
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,960
the most respected professor.
And I know some of our guests

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00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,080
are in common.
I won't say who they are.

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00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,560
I don't want you to say who they
are, but but have you ever had a

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00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,800
guest that was talking and it
was either the most advanced

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00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,400
thing ever and you just couldn't
possibly comprehend it, or they

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00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,600
were promoting something, they
had some some ulterior motive

312
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,280
or, or perhaps they were just
full of you know what?

313
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,040
Have you had that experience?
And if So, what did you do?

314
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,880
Look, Sir, I just spoke about
this last week to Kurt.

315
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,160
I mean, shout out to Kurt J
Mangle for all of those watching

316
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,240
into the impossible mind body
solution theories of everything,

317
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,720
very similar podcasts.
And we're we're talking about

318
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,160
exactly this.
I mean, I just I give them the

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00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,240
platform, allow them to express
themselves as openly as

320
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,240
possible.
Kurt actually called it a good

321
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,760
interrogation technique, which I
mean, it's true.

322
00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:31,600
I mean, that you, you understand
fundamentally that well, I

323
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,680
personally believe that this
person is fundamentally wrong.

324
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,920
But I'm still open to listening.
I want to hear more about it.

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00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:44,000
And I think the giving it's,
it's a tough one because I find

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00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,080
you're in this dilemma where
we're in this post modern world

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00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,480
where relativism is a big
problem.

328
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,640
I mean, you, you have to worry
about where do we draw the line

329
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,200
with what we're willing to
accept?

330
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,560
And as someone who's a
physicalist who grew up

331
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,040
fundamentally, I mean love
astrophysics, wanted to be a

332
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,320
cosmologist specifically, it, it
gets quite difficult when I hear

333
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,040
theories of consciousness that
that go beyond this realm.

334
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,840
The more I listen to some of
them, I I do give some more

335
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,240
credence than others, but there
are times where I think this

336
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:15,880
person's just talking a whole
lot of shit.

337
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,520
You know, but I think we have an
obligation when we talk to such

338
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,320
people because, you know, to
push back.

339
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,000
And that's been the hardest
challenge for me because I I

340
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,960
don't want to be a schmuck.
I don't want to be known as

341
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,600
well.
You gotcha, you know, because,

342
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,720
you know, I mean, for just
obvious reasons, you don't want

343
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,960
to, you know, lose the any kind
of credibility or insight, you

344
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,760
know, to ever be removed from
the list of people that you

345
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,640
know, that reputation will get
around, right.

346
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,480
So from my perspective, I've
tried to do it in a in a

347
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:55,640
respectful way, but I'll push
back by either asking questions.

348
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,600
One thing that's really helped
me a lot and may help you too,

349
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:04,000
is I always ask my audience on
Doctor Brian Keating on YouTube

350
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,920
or Twitter or my website
briankeating.com.

351
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,560
Or Instagram, I always ask them
to ask questions and sometimes

352
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,840
you'll get questions from the
audience like I'm having an

353
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,560
author on tomorrow won the Nobel
Prize in chemistry for

354
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,520
discovering properties of of RNA
and ribosomes and stuff like

355
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,040
that.
And you know, I might want to

356
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,360
ask him, well, what do you think
about this vaccine?

357
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:31,000
And you know, how the messenger
RNA went awry and some people

358
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,560
and cases of injuries and stuff.
But it might be uncomfortable

359
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,880
for me to ask it.
So instead, I might say, as is

360
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,160
true, I have a lot of questions,
you know, how, how could you

361
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,200
still stand by this technology
that's led to, you know, a

362
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,240
million injuries attributed to
vaccine?

363
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,480
I can ask that in my audiences.
Now, maybe that's a cop out.

364
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,000
But on the other hand, if
they're interested in it, that's

365
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,400
just the tip of the iceberg.
You know, I've got 300,000 plus

366
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,280
people across audio and video
that listen or watch and I

367
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,440
always try to engage them.
And a lot of times they're not,

368
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,040
it's not for the gotcha
questions.

369
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,640
If I have on, you know, a
particle physicist, it's not

370
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,680
like, oh, well, you guys, you
know, you opened up a black hole

371
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,600
that swallowed up, you know, all
the, all the Briya, all the bull

372
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,240
tongue in the county of I don't
know where you are, which county

373
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,680
it is.
But anyway, the point being, you

374
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,440
know, astronomy, cosmology,
fairly safe domains.

375
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,480
Although I, I did have a
situation once I talked to an

376
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,800
author.
I don't say who it is, but it

377
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,920
was a, it was a, a woman.
And we're talking about life in

378
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,320
the universe and cosmos and, and
the cosmosmos and she's very,

379
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,200
you know, really into finding
life on other planets.

380
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,560
And I said, just out of
curiosity, if you found life on

381
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:43,000
another planet and it was the
form of like an embryo or fetus,

382
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,680
a human fetus had been placed
there and that, and that was the

383
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:47,560
life that was there.
You know, how would you feel

384
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,480
about aborting that life?
Oh, I'd be really against it.

385
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,960
And I said, well, what do you
think about abortion here on

386
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:54,320
Earth?
Oh, I'm really for it.

387
00:21:54,320 --> 00:22:00,000
It's a so I, I kind of regretted
that conversation because I was

388
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,520
just seeing how intellectually
honest or, you know, she self

389
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,520
consistent.
She was perhaps, but I kind of

390
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,160
regretted it afterwards.
So you have to be careful.

391
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,840
You don't want to take liberties
with it, but you also don't want

392
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,920
to let BS slide because it's
just there's this Brandolini's

393
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,800
law that you know, the amount of
effort to refute bull.

394
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:25,520
You know what BS is a magnitude
or more harder to generate to,

395
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:27,280
to refute it than it is to
generate it.

396
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,200
And so the world is filled with
unrefuted BS.

397
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,840
Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's
such a slippery slope.

398
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,160
It's difficult to sort of, it's,
it's a very, it's an it's almost

399
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,320
an art to kind of get into this
conversation with someone who

400
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,800
you fundamentally disagree with
and still leave that

401
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,720
conversation feeling great,
feeling like you were not

402
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,320
disrespected.
And, and it's it's something you

403
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:51,760
have to sort of nurture over
time.

404
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,000
And it's just, I think because I
grew up while I was studying

405
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,040
medicine, I had a side job to
help assist paying for Med

406
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,040
school fees, which was fortunate
for me, which was television

407
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:02,920
presenting.
And I got to host a lot of

408
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,920
people in South Africa on a, on
a television show, which, which

409
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,240
made it easier to listen to
certain people, took a whole lot

410
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,640
of random stuff about things
that I had no interest in.

411
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,560
And you still had to have this
ability to engage the person,

412
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,680
really make them feel like
you're listening.

413
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,360
And, and, and I do find it quite
difficult.

414
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:26,000
I don't know how you handle it,
but sometimes when when you want

415
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,960
to push back, you really don't
want to do it in a disrespectful

416
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,560
way.
By the way, I love the fact that

417
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:32,680
you're wearing pink today and
I'm wearing blue because our

418
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,840
podcasts really the colours
really go well with our podcast

419
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,080
show.
So it's that's great.

420
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,280
Totally, totally, totally
authentic.

421
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:44,800
You sometimes record an episode
with someone and then you leave

422
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,720
that conversation just thinking,
I mean, I wish I didn't really

423
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,440
do this episode.
It's it's sort of a one of those

424
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,040
conversations I'm contemplating
not posting.

425
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,360
Yeah, I've never not posted
something.

426
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:03,600
I've had my conversations with
other people not posting, but

427
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:07,120
and I don't really know why
because it was a multiple, you

428
00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:09,240
know, I've been on multiple
times and then the last time he

429
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,600
didn't post it, but I've never
not posted anything.

430
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,040
I've, I've come away feeling
like I took that interview

431
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,560
because the guest and at the
time, you know, when my podcast

432
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,800
was really small, I had, you
know, 1000 subscribers too.

433
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,800
All this name guest, he's got,
you know, 180,000 followers on

434
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:33,400
Twitter or Instagram.
And you know, but I haven't

435
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,560
necessarily felt that that was
the greatest reason to have them

436
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,320
on.
I mean, it was sort of maybe

437
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,080
it's tangentially related.
Like I'll have someone on who's

438
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,760
making synthetic cheese, you
know, that doesn't use it's

439
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,080
vegan, but it tastes good.
Or, you know, let's say I had on

440
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,440
something I didn't, but I did
have something similar.

441
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,840
But at the end I was like, well,
it's kind of like science and

442
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,160
maybe it's not.
Or, you know, had on this this

443
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,280
woman who wrote a great book
about Instagram, you know, the

444
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,560
story behind Instagram.
And I thought it would be kind

445
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,400
of like the social network where
she's going to go blow up, get

446
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,320
all this attention.
And I get all this attention for

447
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,200
being, you know, the one who
interviewed her.

448
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,440
And, you know, it was, it was
fine.

449
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,440
She was smart, but it had no
appeal to my audience and nobody

450
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,040
watched it.
But again, that anything went

451
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,320
during COVID, you know, so you'd
almost like, I, I was just so

452
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,160
excited to talk to somebody
other than, you know, the, the,

453
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,400
the barista Starbucks or
something like that.

454
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,560
But yeah, often times I wasted a
lot of time 'cause I, I do the,

455
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,800
the hardest thing for me that to
do in the podcast is read every

456
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,000
book.
I don't like to not read the

457
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,120
books.
And so a lot of times I'll, I

458
00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:41,520
might have on somebody that has
written a huge book, they don't

459
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,360
have an audio book.
So I can't listen at, you know,

460
00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:46,280
three times speed.
And then I'll, I'll only read

461
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,960
the 1st and middle and last
chapter or something like that.

462
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:50,680
I've only done this three or
four times.

463
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:57,240
But you know, I kind of felt a
little bit low integrity for

464
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,680
doing that until I listened to a
podcast by this guy, Chris

465
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,520
Williamson, who's become
extremely popular.

466
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,400
I was on his show in 2018 before
he had video.

467
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,280
Now he's got 2,000,000
subscribers and that then he had

468
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,920
200 or something and, and, you
know, didn't even have video.

469
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,520
And then, you know, later on he
when he became super famous,

470
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,600
popular going on Rogan many
times.

471
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,040
And and he gave good advice
because he said, you know, my

472
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,960
job is not to like be audible
summary.

473
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,960
You know, my, my job is not to
be the, you know, book book

474
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,720
short form, which is the company
that I use, but it's to, it's to

475
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,560
create an atmosphere vibe.
He called it for the listener to

476
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,400
enjoy and and have a
conversation, not to, you know,

477
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,800
make buying the book
superfluous, which the authors,

478
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,680
you know, will always love.
I mean, I love to talk about my

479
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,760
books.
Last night I talked to a a

480
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,880
Korean radio station about my,
my second book called into the

481
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,600
Impossible.
And it's been translated into

482
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,640
Korean and has the weirdest
name.

483
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,080
It's called physicists don't
trust their brains.

484
00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:02,360
That's, that's the translation.
I, I don't know how they would

485
00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:03,720
get that.
And I wonder whether it would be

486
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:04,880
an Afrikaans.
Maybe you can help me out.

487
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,920
But anyway, the point is that
that I want to talk about it.

488
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,360
And it was very tight.
You know, she asked me like to

489
00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:13,120
summarize it.
And, you know, I didn't really

490
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:14,840
summarize, summarize the themes
of it.

491
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,280
But it's always fun to talk.
I just don't like to go into an

492
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,280
interview where I haven't fully
done the research.

493
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,240
And to do that, you need, you
know, two or three hours per, I

494
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,160
mean, these people have spent
thousands of hours, 10s of

495
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,880
thousands of hours developing
the skills and tools to write a

496
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,680
book or to become a Nobel Prize
winner or what have you.

497
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,640
So, you know, the least I feel I
can do is two or three hours.

498
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,760
I can't just like show up the
way that I'm convinced Joe Rogan

499
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,160
doesn't read any books, even the
ones he's like authored the,

500
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,640
the, the forward to.
So, you know, I just showed up.

501
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,000
I, I, he didn't read it and he
watched my podcast, but he

502
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,360
didn't read the book.
So that's the difference, you

503
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:53,760
know, I think between between
this and and what I try to do.

504
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,880
I, I, I completely agree.
I think that's the most

505
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,600
exhausting part.
I was just chatting about it the

506
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,800
other day, thinking about how
much time goes into preparing

507
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,920
for each podcast.
I mean, reading and losing the

508
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,760
Nobel Prize, reading into the
impossible, reading every book

509
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,600
that goes into the making these
podcast.

510
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,080
But then also trying not to do
what you're talking about just

511
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,480
being this auto generated
questioner because AI could

512
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,280
easily do that.
And that's not what I want for

513
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:19,920
the for the listeners of mind
body solution.

514
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,520
That's not what I want at all.
I know Into the Impossible is

515
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,280
premised on what is based on
your love for science fiction,

516
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,200
and I'd love to explore that a
little bit.

517
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,160
Let's talk about that.
I mean the name the Into the

518
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,040
Impossible, Arthur C Clark.
Give us some insight into that.

519
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,600
Yeah.
So I actually became the

520
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,720
associate director of the Arthur
C Clark Center for Human

521
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,200
Imagination, which we host here
at UC San Diego.

522
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,880
And because of that, we had a
great deal of incredible

523
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,360
luminary intellects that would
come through UCSD and the some

524
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,040
of them were writers, some of
them were scientists, some of

525
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,040
them were artists, poets, what
have you.

526
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,080
But they all shared the same
common trait, which is that they

527
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,480
were passionately curious about
the universe and were interested

528
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,120
in exploring it.
Many of them were interested in

529
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,960
science fiction.
I actually have more of a love

530
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,400
for science nonfiction than
science fiction, although I can

531
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,880
indulge science fiction at times
if it's done well.

532
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,160
I I did come to science via
Isaac Asimov.

533
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,080
His not his science fiction, but
his science nonfiction books on

534
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,160
chemistry and so forth.
And you may know that Arthur C

535
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,960
Clarke himself was also a great
writer of nonfiction and science

536
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:38,080
and popularized things like
virtual reality, FaceTime,

537
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,480
geosynchronous orbits of
satellites.

538
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,280
And without him, we wouldn't
have the at least the name of

539
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,400
what we do podcast.
So the podcast comes from the

540
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,080
sign behind me if you're
watching and it says open the

541
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,560
pod Bay doors.
And that's a quote from Dave,

542
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,160
the astronaut scientist in 2001,
a space odyssey when he tries to

543
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,720
get back into the ship that's
going to Saturn, you know,

544
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,240
because of this life form that's
discovered there and and Hal

545
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,080
won't let him in.
And so there's this this battle

546
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,080
there.
And the pod was this life

547
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,880
support system that contained
all of Dave's needs that allowed

548
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,600
him to live for, you know, a a
while longer before he does this

549
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,400
big maneuver and tries to get
back in.

550
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,560
I won't spoil it, although it's
55 years old, so can't really

551
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:22,800
spoil it.
That what?

552
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,560
Is the greatest of all time.
Yeah, and so, and it's just and

553
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,360
and so much so that Kubrick is
is accused of being the person

554
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,840
who staged the moon landings in
the in the falsification of the

555
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,520
moon landings.
That many people believe is is

556
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,120
the case that we never went to
the moon.

557
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,880
It was just shot in a movie
studio in Hollywood.

558
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,200
And the reason that the flag is
waving on the moon, according to

559
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,080
Bart Siberelle, who was on the
Joe Rogan Experience recently

560
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,680
and I made a video debunking it.
But according to Bart, this

561
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,080
conspiracy theorist, the flag is
waving because there was wind in

562
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,880
the studio.
So Kubrick was this master, you

563
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,960
know, creative genius, but he
forgot to close the door inside

564
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,400
of the studio to replicate the
moon landing along with these

565
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,720
electrical lights that Bart
loves to talk about.

566
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,560
So anyway, the the point being
when the pod Bay doors

567
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,680
referenced then became
synonymous with the, the life

568
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:20,240
saving, life sustaining notion
of the, of the what was then

569
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,680
called the iPod.
Back in 2001 when the iPod was

570
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,080
being developed, this guy Vince,
who's an engineer and product

571
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,840
branding person, he suggested to
Steve Jobs that it would be

572
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,840
called the iPod based on the pod
in 2001.

573
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:38,120
So we have the podcast name only
because of Arthur C Clarke.

574
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,040
So that's one of the many
reasons I do love him and and

575
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:46,280
the work that he did.
Aside from Arthur C Clark, Brian

576
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,200
who?
What other science fiction?

577
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,000
I mean, we'll focus on non
fiction in a bit.

578
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:51,600
What other science fiction do
you enjoy?

579
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,920
Do you any specific authors or
books in?

580
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,240
Yeah, I'm, I'm very blessed to
have that on, you know, two or

581
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:03,000
three of them, David Brin and
and Stan Robinson's Kim Stanley

582
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:08,840
Robinson, who are both alumni of
UCSD that have written just

583
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,120
incredible books and very
different from the type of

584
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,360
science that I do.
But the one in particular that

585
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,480
really resonates with me in
recent science, you know,

586
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:23,080
fiction history is a is sort of
fan fiction about Galileo called

587
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,960
Galileo's Dream by Kim Stanley
Robinson.

588
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:27,960
And it's just the most
phenomenal.

589
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:29,800
It's got so much science fact in
it.

590
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,640
And the audio book is just
phenomenal.

591
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,760
And so I did an event with him
and Mario Biagioli here at UCSD

592
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,760
on what would have been
Galileo's, you know, 500th

593
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,040
birthday, I think it was.
It was the 400.

594
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,240
No, it was the 400th anniversary
of the telescope.

595
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,240
So he he couldn't have been 500.
But anyway, the discussion of,

596
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,120
you know, between the three of
us, a historian of science of

597
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,160
Galileo, a writer of Galileo's
work, and then, you know,

598
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,080
someone who builds telescopes
based on Galileo's design,

599
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,600
that's really the one that ranks
up most closely for me.

600
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,000
You, you just mentioned
historian, right?

601
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,720
And the first thing I thought at
that moment was people could

602
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,160
look at you and think that he's
a historian because you're

603
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,720
literally studying history.
Then when people think of

604
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,240
history, they're thinking World
War 2, they're thinking about

605
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,440
all these exciting moments in
human history.

606
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,520
And we did get that the universe
has a history of its own and,

607
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,160
and we were firmly not a part of
it for a very long time.

608
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,000
I mean, second of the last day,
I mean, I can't remember the

609
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,040
exact amount, but talk to me
about the story of, of, of the

610
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,400
universe because it's an awe
inspiring story.

611
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,960
There's two particular cosmology
stories that I really loved.

612
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,880
And I remember the one being the
Hubble Ultra Field, the Deep

613
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,760
Field.
I mean, that moment expanding

614
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,960
this universe so much more, and
the CMB.

615
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,080
And I mean, that's particularly
focused on your work.

616
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,600
Those two images are two of my
favorite, possibly two of my

617
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,160
favorites when it comes to
thinking about the universe, the

618
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,720
cosmos, just based on the
historic's significance they

619
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,520
come with.
So tell me about this story.

620
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,679
Yeah.
So those two images, I call each

621
00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:12,679
one in different occasions.
I call each one, you know, kind

622
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:17,280
of cosmic wallpaper, cosmic
screen savers, because in one

623
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,239
case it all the processes that
we know about in the universe

624
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,159
are come from fossils.
We, we cannot do an experiment.

625
00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:27,639
As an astronomer, I cannot
change the temperature of the

626
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:32,120
sun and see, does that make the
sunspots more intense or less

627
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,840
intense and and so forth.
I can't do an experiment, but

628
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,560
there's literally 100 billion
other sun like stars in our own

629
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,480
Galaxy.
So statistically we can do an

630
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,000
incredible job.
Maybe not doing an exact

631
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,719
experiment, but you know, God or
Mother Nature, if you will, is

632
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,080
kind of doing this experiment
for us, having millions of

633
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,800
variables under the control.
And we can look at that and see

634
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,159
what is the effect of different
phenomena.

635
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,800
But in cosmology, there's only
one universe for now.

636
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,280
There are a lot of claims we
could live in a multiverse.

637
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,200
There's zero evidence that we
live in a multiverse, so that

638
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,760
has to be taken into account.
But in a universe that only has

639
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,440
a single instance of our
universe or what we can observe,

640
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,680
we are observing effectively
different kinds of what I call

641
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,760
fusion processes.
And the most familiar to you

642
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,200
might be the fusion itself of,
of the light elements on the

643
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,840
periodic table where they came
from protons and neutrons fused

644
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,240
together to make heavier
elements.

645
00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:33,160
And then those proton neutron
nuclei of it's called deuterium.

646
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,080
Then they fuse to make helium.
And we see the leftover remnants

647
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,520
in the universe of, of hydrogen
and helium.

648
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,800
And those can only have come
from The Big Bang, what we see

649
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,640
in the universe.
In fact, we can scoop up some in

650
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,960
the ocean here there and we will
get the, we'll get some

651
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,120
measurement of the abundance of
tracing back to the original

652
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,240
composition of the universe the
1st 3 minutes after The Big

653
00:35:56,240 --> 00:35:58,080
Bang.
But there are other fusion

654
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,960
events that took place as well.
There's a fusion.

655
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:06,160
So after the first nuclei form,
it took 400,000 years for the

656
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,200
universe to cool off enough to
fuse the first atoms.

657
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,960
First atoms were hydrogen atoms.
So hydrogen nuclei is just a

658
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,240
proton.
A hydrogen atom is a proton and

659
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:19,320
an electron, but the universe
was too hot until about 400,000

660
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:24,440
years after The Big Bang for the
electron to stay bound to or

661
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,120
fused to the proton in an atom,
So that took 400,000 years.

662
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,040
When that happens, the CMB is
produced.

663
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,640
That leftover heat at the time
of the fusion of the first atoms

664
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,320
is called the Cosmic Microwave
background.

665
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,520
That's what I studied.
And then if you like, 100

666
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,960
million years go by until the
first stars in the universe

667
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,920
start igniting, fusing together
their hydrogen into helium,

668
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:51,320
providing heat, and they
accumulate and fuse together

669
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,640
into galaxies and clusters of
galaxies.

670
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,560
And that process is sort of the
last major fusion of of material

671
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,560
in the universe.
In that sense, you're fusing a

672
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:05,560
Galaxy made-up of individual
stars, and that is the Hubble

673
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,840
Deep Field.
So that occurs at a much

674
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,920
earlier, much later time in the
universe's history, which is

675
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,640
much closer she was today.
And by using a telescope, A

676
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,440
telescope is a time machine.
So we may not be able to do an

677
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,280
experiment like a biologist can
take a fruit fly and change a

678
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,040
chromosome and see what happens
to it, because we only have one

679
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:23,920
universe.
But we can use a telescope to go

680
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,120
back in time and see what were
the physical conditions like at

681
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,120
those extremely early times.
And one of those times we can go

682
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:34,400
back, the first one going back
from Earth to the past is the

683
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,760
Hubble Deep Field, who now been
replaced by the James Webb Ultra

684
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,000
Deep Field, seeing very
consistent things, but also

685
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,280
bringing up new questions.
Why are the galaxies so mature?

686
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,680
Why are there so many of them?
Why are they so hot, bright,

687
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,360
luminous?
This should be impossible

688
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,560
according to some, like some of
my guests and and some that I

689
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,160
don't have on my show.
But this should be impossible

690
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,680
according to the standard Big
Bang Theory, 'cause there's not

691
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,560
enough time to form a giant
Galaxy to produce that

692
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,200
luminosity at a redshift of 10,
which is where we're seeing

693
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,200
things just 400,000 year, 400
million years after The Big

694
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:08,920
Bang.
So 1000 times later than the

695
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,000
CMB.
And then the CMB is a tracer of

696
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,480
the processes at the time at
which it was created, 400,000

697
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,920
years after The Big Bang.
So you have a factor of three

698
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:20,960
orders of magnitude between
these two events.

699
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,560
And so they're going to reveal
extremely different phenomena.

700
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:25,880
And yes, you're right, they're
iconic images.

701
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,480
They, they, they really are the
pinnacle of, of cosmological

702
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,320
observations that human beings
can measure in the sense that we

703
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,480
can't really do any better.
We literally can't do better

704
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,240
than the CMB temperature maps.
I have a beach ball in this side

705
00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:43,520
of my office here that has the
depiction of what you'd see if

706
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,840
you were God looking at our
universe from the outside, so to

707
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,880
speak.
And that is the oldest light in

708
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,320
the universe.
You can't look at light, find

709
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,320
light earlier than that.
We hope to, on my experiment

710
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,440
that I'm building with
colleagues from sixty other

711
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,920
universities, 300 other
scientists called the Simons

712
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:02,720
Observatory.
We hope to make another image,

713
00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:08,040
which would be an image of the
gravitational radiation present,

714
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:13,960
not in the 1st 400 million
years, not in the 1st 400,000

715
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,080
years, but in the first
trillionth of a trillionth of a

716
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,280
trillionth of a second after The
Big Bang.

717
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,440
That's called inflation.
So that would be another iconic

718
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,000
image.
We claimed to make that 10 years

719
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,720
ago with BICEP.
We had to retract that claim.

720
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:31,520
And that was the subject of my
first book losing the Nobel

721
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,520
Prize.
I have over here.

722
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,080
So this book is the story of how
we came to almost win the Nobel

723
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,120
Prize and then we lost it
because we mistook the signal

724
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,600
that we saw for a cosmic signal
when it was really a collection

725
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,040
of essentially chunks of
microscopic space dust similar

726
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,240
to these meteorites, which I
give away to all my beloved

727
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,040
listeners and and viewers who
live in the United States that

728
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:02,400
have a.edu e-mail address.
So put a link in the show notes,

729
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,560
maybe that Brian king.com/EDU
you'll.

730
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:06,880
Ship you one of these if you
live in the US.

731
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,680
If you don't, sorry, I'll have
to ship one to Tevin.

732
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,120
He'll ship some to you from
South Africa at his cost.

733
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:14,880
But I'd love to do that.
And, and I also give my way to

734
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,280
to not to
normiesthatdonthave.edu e-mail

735
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:19,560
addresses.
I pick one or two at

736
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,640
random@briankeating.com.
So, yeah, I'd love to give these

737
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:23,960
things away.
Even though this is a villain of

738
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:25,760
my book, Tevin.
This is a villain.

739
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,120
This is what caused me and my
colleagues not to win a Nobel

740
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:29,520
Prize.
I love the fact that it would

741
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,400
you your recent conversation
with Lawrence Krauss that

742
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,200
someone asked you if if there's
any radioactivity in some of

743
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,840
those.
Yeah, that's right.

744
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:40,520
Very little.
Very little, yeah.

745
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,880
Very little.
There's radioactivity

746
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:44,680
everywhere, but it's it's it's
minute.

747
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,160
When I was speaking to Lawrence
Krauss, I was thinking we, we

748
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,040
were discussing, I mean, these
alternate theories of reality

749
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,880
and multiverses, dark energy,
dark matter.

750
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:55,920
What are your thoughts on these
concepts?

751
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,760
I mean, I've heard, I've heard
you talk about them.

752
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,800
Where do you stand in terms of
the fundamental nature of

753
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,680
reality?
How do you define this?

754
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:11,800
The in terms of the nature of
reality, the understanding that

755
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,240
I have is again, a very
pragmatic approach.

756
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,080
I like to look for what is
possible for me to measure and

757
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,160
not, again, not to prove, but to
disprove.

758
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,800
So there's many hypotheses that
contend that the universe didn't

759
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,720
have an inflationary origin and
therefore would not have a

760
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,120
multiverse experience, you know,
sort of a multiverse.

761
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:36,480
But the the fact is we can't
rule out inflation.

762
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:41,240
We can't disprove inflation
because inflation could occur,

763
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,960
but with so low an energy scale
that it's undetectable for our

764
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,520
instruments to view it.
In which case we would perhaps

765
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,200
say that there's no evidence for
it, but it's true it did truly

766
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,720
happen.
So you'd be ruling out the the

767
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,480
hypothesis making a a type 2
error.

768
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,840
It's called so, but there are
other theories that suggest the

769
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,320
universe is not a part of the
multiverse.

770
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,560
The fact there's three or four
different theories like that and

771
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,280
they go by different names, like
a steady state universe, static

772
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,000
universe, quasi static universe,
bouncing universe, conformal

773
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,200
cyclic cosmology, and those all
have a virtue that they can be

774
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,200
falsified.
We could prove them wrong with

775
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,880
our instrument.
That would not necessarily prove

776
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,880
inflation.
But in science you can't prove a

777
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,720
statement like 1 + 1 = 2.
You can do that in math,

778
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:35,600
although not according to
Terrence Howard, but you can do

779
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:40,920
it in in mathematics for logical
propositions, piano axioms, and

780
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,120
go into deep mathematics of
number theory and so forth.

781
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,160
But you could prove it.
It takes a long time to prove

782
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,000
one plus 1 = 2, but you can
prove it and just using the laws

783
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,040
of of predicate calculus and
logic.

784
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,960
But you can't prove a scientific
statement.

785
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,800
I can't prove the universe began
with a Big Bang.

786
00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:59,800
I can have extreme evidence for
it.

787
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,120
I can rule out every other model
that one could think of.

788
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,520
But tomorrow somebody could come
up with some other theory.

789
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:07,680
You know, Isaac Newton thought
that gravity was transmitted at

790
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,440
the speed of light.
And at his time, he couldn't

791
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,440
falsify that.
Later on that was disproven by

792
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,240
it was faster than the speed of
light, infinitely fast.

793
00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:19,160
He didn't thought.
And it took Einstein to show no

794
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:20,920
gravity travels at the speed of
light as well.

795
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,280
So For these reasons, I think
it's it's important to look at

796
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,320
what real scientists do is we
don't go out, we're not trying

797
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,080
to prove Brian Greene or Eric
Weinstein or, or, you know,

798
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,800
whoever their personal theory,
if they make a prediction, I try

799
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,120
to press them all.
What is a rigorous prediction

800
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:38,640
that you can make from your
theory?

801
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,960
Not just that it's elegant or as
beautiful as Brian Greene, you

802
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,920
know, told me, or that you can
get certain things out of it.

803
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,120
That is the only theory that can
produce things that we do see,

804
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,080
like gravity and general
relativity.

805
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,360
That's not that's not proving.
It's not able to be disproven.

806
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,000
It's just a nice feature of a
set of mathematical equations.

807
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,000
So when people say these things,
I always say, well, what's the

808
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,680
actual concrete prediction that
I can measure in a telescope or

809
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:04,800
particle accelerator?
They say there is none.

810
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,680
It may be interesting
mathematically, but it's not.

811
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,120
It's not in the realm of physics
and so I can't necessarily waste

812
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,680
my time with it.
I've noticed you've also had,

813
00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:18,120
well, some of the guests on your
show.

814
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,040
In terms of discussing
consciousness.

815
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,160
At this point, I know you don't
find free will to be very

816
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,960
intriguing in the sense that
nobody acts like they don't have

817
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:28,920
free will.
So what is the point in actually

818
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:30,600
talking about, especially as a
pragmatist?

819
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,720
I mean, there's no point in in
really discussing this.

820
00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:35,560
I mean, if you're a determinist
who doesn't believe in free

821
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,320
will, it's not like you're
walking around naked on the

822
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:42,000
streets doing whatever you want.
But those people you've spoken

823
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,640
to who fundamentally believe
that reality is consciousness.

824
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,880
I know you've spoken to Bernardo
Castro recently.

825
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:51,840
You've had several similar
guests who've who've got these

826
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:53,920
views.
You've got people like Donald

827
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:55,720
Hoffman, etcetera.
How?

828
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,240
How does someone who's so
pragmatic trying to figure out

829
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:03,480
how we can use this physical
universe as a tool to understand

830
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,560
the nature of reality, then have
these discussions with people

831
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:12,320
who have such alternative views?
Well, I, I mean, I think it's

832
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:18,560
important to listen to listen to
voices that have earned

833
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,960
credibility to have standing to
communicate with.

834
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,200
In other words, you know, people
say, oh, no, you, you should

835
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,000
listen to everybody.
And you'll be surprised.

836
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,240
Terrence Howard will be right.
He has zero standing.

837
00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:30,920
He has zero training, zero
knowledge.

838
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:35,480
He has made, you know, provable
errors in logic and scientific

839
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,800
knowledge and mathematical
reasoning and so forth.

840
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,800
So no, I, I don't think I
sometimes I, I debate, you know,

841
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,880
should such people be ridiculed?
Not, not celebrated or

842
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,320
entertained or humored, but
should they be humiliated?

843
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,160
And I, I don't like to do that.
So I'm not going to humiliate

844
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:52,760
them.
Other people that, you know,

845
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,520
proposed the moon landing, you
know, as a hoax and so forth.

846
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,760
I will entertain those.
I did tell Joe Rogan I would

847
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,040
come on the show and debate him
and I don't think it would be

848
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:05,000
close, although they're all of
his adherents that say, you

849
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:10,480
know, because I am a scientist
that I am suspect.

850
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,440
I work for big NASA, that I just
care about the the narrative and

851
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,640
the government lied to us about
COVID and therefore they lie

852
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:19,880
about, they can lie about
everything.

853
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:24,840
So maybe even the, the world and
the earth is flat and it's, it's

854
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,320
very nonsensical.
But again, Brandolini's law, the

855
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,400
BS asymmetry principle applies.
You cannot refute everything

856
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,920
because you'd be spending your
life refuting 10 to 100,000

857
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:41,320
times more, more, you know, BS
than there is actual real

858
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,640
physics that we can, we can
attempt to, to entertain.

859
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,920
So I have enough, you know,
things to keep me busy and, and

860
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:49,680
orthodox, you know, practicing
scientists.

861
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,680
But, you know, to say that we
have to listen to these

862
00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:56,160
alternative models theories, I
think that's nonsensical.

863
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,880
It's provably detrimental to
listen to, you know, at at some

864
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:03,000
point everything could be
regurgitated, right?

865
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,440
So we could still, we could go
back and say, well, there's

866
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,120
flogistin.
And so, you know, This is why

867
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,280
things combust and, and there's
phrenology is a good tool to use

868
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,880
for diagnosing mental disorders.
And the lobotomy was, was, was

869
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,480
won a Nobel Prize.
So we should, we should do that

870
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,600
more and more often.
You know, so at at some point

871
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,920
you, you have to realize that,
that it's a, it's almost like a

872
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,480
dark scientific age.
It's not unique, fortunately or

873
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,760
unfortunately, it's, it's many
times over, you know, it's not

874
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:34,600
unique.
So I think that this is, you

875
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,480
know, something that that we
just have to get used to that

876
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,280
there's always going to be
conspiracy theories and and

877
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,640
crackpots and people that say
woo woo things that to a

878
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,120
layperson, you know, might sound
appealing.

879
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,840
But even at very first blush, I
mean, we could say, well, heavy

880
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,280
things fall faster than than
lighter things.

881
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,600
Or, you know, well, since since
every atom has a resonant

882
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,400
frequency, that means every
note, you know, played in a

883
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,920
Terrence Howard movie soundtrack
is just creating atoms because

884
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:07,760
there's a duality between these
two.

885
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,960
And they would say, no, no, no,
that's not what we mean.

886
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:15,600
So, so they, they like to use
science to kind of as a cudgel,

887
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,560
as a battering ram to, to kind
of attack science.

888
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,120
And for that reason I find it
very abhorrent.

889
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,320
I mean, I mean, basically all
Terence did was take Walter

890
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,240
Russell's model and try to sort
of just defend it.

891
00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:31,800
I guess in a sense, it's pretty
crazy.

892
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,400
I mean, I was watching Kurt and
Lee Cronin.

893
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,800
You've spoken to both of them at
the same time before discussing

894
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,480
it.
And I find it intriguing that

895
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:45,200
we're spending so much time
discussing this man's view, as

896
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,000
you said.
I mean, what has he really done

897
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,840
to sort of justify earn this
spot, to be an expert in that

898
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:52,320
field?
Because I agree with you.

899
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,120
I mean, I tend to have most of
my guests are the professors,

900
00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:01,160
PhDs, I mean, people who have
thoroughly studied this, been

901
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,560
tested on it and passed.
Because, I mean, that's a

902
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,760
fundamental difference between
someone just sitting at home

903
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,800
reading a book and then figuring
out a few things here and there

904
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:10,960
is that you're not really being
tested afterwards.

905
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,560
Did you have to really spend the
hours putting in the work and

906
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:16,680
the effort trying to
fundamentally understand this

907
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:18,720
concept?
Do you think that's a big

908
00:49:18,720 --> 00:49:21,680
problem there in lacking from
his side?

909
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:25,360
Yeah, I mean, I, I, I definitely
do.

910
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:28,080
I mean, these are things that
are, you know, demonstrably

911
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,200
false.
There's zero evidence for it.

912
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:35,040
It's like, you know, looking at
a picture of a of, you know, the

913
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,480
snake that eats its tail and,
and then saying, well, that is,

914
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,800
you know, and Uroboros and that
that kind of looks like, you

915
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,920
know, this cosmology.
And, and so there's no evidence.

916
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,200
I mean, I'm looking at this, you
know, right now and, and it's,

917
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,720
it's so laughable.
I mean, there's stuff on here.

918
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:55,240
OK, so let's let's look at this
now.

919
00:49:55,240 --> 00:49:58,520
Or, you know, maybe I'll put
this up when I edit my version

920
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,800
or what have you, But it's got
like 17 different elements.

921
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:06,760
It's got like between just for
hydrogen has like 20 Betanon,

922
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:09,960
all these things.
OK, so he's making a prediction.

923
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,640
So every single one of these
predictions, the 2nd octave,

924
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,160
there's something called, you
know, between lithium and

925
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:17,600
fluorine.
He doesn't describe how they

926
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,640
come about.
He just puts numbers to them.

927
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:23,720
There's Luminon, there's
Heliononon, there's Carbagen,

928
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:26,880
Betanon.
So he's made 1000 predictions

929
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:31,680
here that that can be falsified
and in fact have been falsified.

930
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,680
There's no, there's no mechanism
for these things to form.

931
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:36,880
He's not saying they don't
exist.

932
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,720
He's just saying that there's
integrating light octave within

933
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:42,480
another.
So it's very appealing to, you

934
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:46,160
know, people that want to see
ridiculous patterns or want to

935
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:49,760
see, you know, the, you know,
sort of a joke about stuff.

936
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,360
Whereas you know, when you want
to take your medicine, if you

937
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,280
have a headache and you try to
get some Betanon to do it or

938
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:03,400
your, your, your, you know,
pharmacist uses alchemy or or

939
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,160
perhaps uses, you know, snake
oil to do it.

940
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,000
You wouldn't you say, Oh, no, I
don't want to do that.

941
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,880
When you use actual proven
medicine, Your your child is

942
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:12,720
going in for surgery.
I don't know, Terrence Howard

943
00:51:12,720 --> 00:51:14,880
has as a kid or something.
They're going to give him

944
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,160
anesthesia and the
anesthesiologist says I'm going

945
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,600
to give you Betanon instead
because your, your ideas are so

946
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:22,040
good.
Terrence, I want your child.

947
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:23,800
I want your child, your
daughter, your beautiful,

948
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,760
precious daughter to have some
Betanon breathe it in because

949
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,240
that will cause her to resonate.
He would stop the doctor.

950
00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:32,040
He would call, you know, you
know, child protective Sir.

951
00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:34,680
He would go nuts.
So it's just total nonsense.

952
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:35,800
They don't believe any of this
stuff.

953
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:40,680
My girlfriend's anesthesiologist
and I'm just thinking about how,

954
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,440
how irritated we get when, you
know, when a patient wakes up

955
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:46,440
and then like, oh, thank God.
I mean, we're just sitting there

956
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,320
like, oh, yeah, we, we were just
there just watching.

957
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,200
I mean, it's, it's nothing to do
with it.

958
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,080
We want some of that
recognition.

959
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:55,960
I mean, it's, it's crazy.
It's, there's no way I'm going

960
00:51:55,960 --> 00:52:00,080
to give you some sort of a
musical note as medicine.

961
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,280
I mean, I'll, I'll definitely go
to something like that.

962
00:52:03,720 --> 00:52:07,520
Yeah.
So yeah, that is, that is it's a

963
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,160
big problem.
The problem comes in, I think,

964
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:16,240
when when someone has learned
enough about a topic to know

965
00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:19,520
enough, but not enough to
realize they don't know anything

966
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:23,480
in that topic.
And that happens to me all the

967
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:24,880
time.
The more I learn about certain

968
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,000
things in physics, for example,
your work, the more I read about

969
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,040
it, the more you realize, I
mean, I know absolutely nothing

970
00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:33,760
to really go in depth and have a
discussion with Brian Keating

971
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,000
regarding the CMB, for example.
I mean, I know enough to have a

972
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,240
fun, friendly conversation.
And I think that's where

973
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:44,320
possibly Joe Rogan goes a bit
awry where he's we're starting

974
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,720
to feel like he is an expert
because he's he's not spoken to

975
00:52:47,720 --> 00:52:49,520
enough experts.
And I think that's where a

976
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:53,640
blurry line tends to occur.
I mean, I've spoken to enough

977
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:58,040
professors of mind at this
point, but still never really

978
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,200
going to consider myself the
expert in the field.

979
00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:04,720
And I and I think that humility
that they lack tends to be the

980
00:53:04,720 --> 00:53:06,960
biggest problem.
Mm hmm.

981
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:09,320
Yeah.
I think that's true to say that

982
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:12,280
you can do the work of a
scientist like me or my

983
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:16,520
colleagues or my students who
work for half a decade and then

984
00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:20,560
they still don't have, you know,
the kind of judgement or wisdom.

985
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:22,360
You know, science means
knowledge in Latin.

986
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:24,840
It doesn't mean wisdom.
So how do you get wisdom from

987
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,160
that?
Well, I think it's important to

988
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:30,280
look at the fact that science
can't produce wisdom.

989
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,280
Just having a set of facts, you
know, is not sufficient.

990
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,400
Wikipedia has a lot of facts.
If you were going to do that to

991
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,080
consult with.
And I'm just looking up Terrence

992
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,760
Howard.
And I looked up to see, does he

993
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,040
have any children?
He has four.

994
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,160
He's been married four times to
three women, and he has five

995
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:49,600
children.
OK Well, you know, Neil

996
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,600
Armstrong got divorced, too.
I think he married his wife

997
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:54,320
twice.
I'm not going to judge him for

998
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:55,200
that.
But.

999
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,560
But again, yeah, he's got a son.
He's got multiple kids.

1000
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:00,200
He's got a granddaughter and a
grandson.

1001
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:06,440
And, you know, so, you know, for
me to think about this, this

1002
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,720
person in, in terms of like,
yes, is this, is this

1003
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:13,040
appropriate for somebody to, to
say such things?

1004
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,640
Again, to me, if you don't put
in the work, it's not only that

1005
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:22,280
you are doing something, you
know, morally questionable, but

1006
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,320
you're also condemning people
that have put in the work to do

1007
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,280
the real thing.
It's like even this guy, you

1008
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:32,720
know, Russell and, and, and, and
you know who Howard is quoting

1009
00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:36,880
and trying to get a patent about
this person had at least at some

1010
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,800
point, you know, learned about
what a spectrum is and learned

1011
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,760
about, you know, spectroscopy
and molecular, you know,

1012
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:46,200
dynamics and stuff like that.
And then, you know, started to

1013
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:47,520
put a bunch of nonsense
together.

1014
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:52,480
So my, my question is, you know,
what, to what extent do we as

1015
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:57,360
scientists allow for the
disparagement of what we do that

1016
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,360
if, if this guy can do it, you
know, between making films and

1017
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:04,960
getting married, You know what,
to what extent do we have, you

1018
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,680
know, earned the credibility of
scientists to, to push back and

1019
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,920
to say, look, you, you have done
no real rigorous research.

1020
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,120
You, you have, you know, come up
with some interesting numerical

1021
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:17,840
facts.
I mean, you know, it's like I'm

1022
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,280
saying, well, the number six is
really important.

1023
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:22,680
You know, carbon is number six
in the pyramid table.

1024
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,680
And did you know, Tevin, that if
you go out to the 900th decimal

1025
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:31,160
place of π that the number six
repeats 6 times And and that's a

1026
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:33,600
message to us.
And that means a π is not real.

1027
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,280
I mean, at what point do you
say, well, actually, you know,

1028
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,280
we can discover how that came
about and we can, you know,

1029
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,720
provide you the an expansion
that actually is used to get π

1030
00:55:43,720 --> 00:55:47,360
to a billion decimal places.
But no, no, no, you're not gonna

1031
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,040
trust the people that came up
with that so that you found this

1032
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,680
supposed serendipitous
coincidence.

1033
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:55,680
You're just gonna, you're just
gonna use the fact that other

1034
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,000
real scientists have come up
with to attack science or to

1035
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:00,680
undermine the credibility in
science.

1036
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:02,880
I mean.
I find it very.

1037
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:06,640
Never forget, do not mistake
correlation for causation.

1038
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,600
I think 1 of what, what's the
most disappointing part about

1039
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,760
this whole thing is, is that
Mendeleev, the way he figured

1040
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:16,400
out these things, I mean, each
element and how certainly spread

1041
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,880
into place and how he set
everything up was such an

1042
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:20,760
awesome story.
It was, it was one of the

1043
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:24,680
coolest things that's been,
that's, that's been done.

1044
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,600
I mean, it's, it was such an
epic tale the way he sort of

1045
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,000
figured these things out and how
these patterns come together.

1046
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:34,320
And now for it to get sort of
shut down and and like pushed

1047
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:36,360
under the carpet, it's kind of
irritating.

1048
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:40,320
Yeah, it definitely is.
And and to, you know, kind of

1049
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:44,920
again, it's it's, you know, I, I
call myself a practicing Jew.

1050
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,760
I'm not necessarily, you know, a
fully believing Jew, but I feel

1051
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,320
like belief is kind of
presumptuous to say, oh, Brian

1052
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:55,520
Keating believes in God.
So, you know, I, I keep kosher,

1053
00:56:55,720 --> 00:56:58,560
you know, I can read Hebrew.
I taught it to myself after age

1054
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,400
30, which was very difficult,
you know, So I put in the work

1055
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:05,240
to do to oops, to do practice in
this field so that I can have

1056
00:57:05,240 --> 00:57:08,440
some expertise rather than just
be like, you know, again, past

1057
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:10,280
guests.
I'm not going to poop on him too

1058
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:11,440
much.
But, you know, Sam Harris, who

1059
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,920
will condemn all, you know,
religion, but he has a very

1060
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:19,560
superficial almost, you know,
childlike understanding of the

1061
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:22,440
principles of at least my
religion of Judaism, which, you

1062
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,680
know, is the religion I think
he's technically a part of or

1063
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:27,840
was a part of.
Now, he's obviously a prominent

1064
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:31,160
atheist, and that's fine.
I'm, I'm not mandating that

1065
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:34,200
anyone should become, you know,
faithful to any religion.

1066
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:37,240
But when I talk to him about,
you know, some very basic

1067
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,000
concepts that have been
adjudicated by, you know,

1068
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,920
thousands and thousands of
people much more knowledgeable

1069
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:47,520
than me or him, certainly about
Judaism, you know, to, to then

1070
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:51,200
have it pivot away from that and
say, well, like, we can make a

1071
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:55,800
better Bible than God.
And therefore God is irrelevant

1072
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:59,440
and nonexistent and the Bible is
worthless because we wouldn't

1073
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:01,760
put slavery in there.
And so I asked him, well, what

1074
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:03,320
did slavery mean?
And we went into this whole

1075
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,200
discussion and all of his fans
and oh, how could you even

1076
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,080
entertain, you know, this after
3 1/2 hours of talking, by the

1077
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,480
way.
And, and you know, and, and then

1078
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,560
the conversation came to a more
abrupt end.

1079
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:17,200
But, you know, I do feel like we
have this tendency to have this

1080
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:21,160
incredible arrogance about what
we know, but we neglect the fact

1081
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,920
that we stand on the shoulders
of thousands of years of giants.

1082
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,760
And I don't think that should
ever be taken for granted.

1083
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:32,600
And I think that's the biggest
mistake is that we singular, I

1084
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:37,600
think we we're so much duller
than than we are as a unit.

1085
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:41,400
I mean, as a collective
intelligence, we're much better.

1086
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,640
And, and what people tend to
forget is that we're all working

1087
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:47,200
off each other's ideas.
There's no, there's no singular

1088
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:49,000
Einsteins walking around here
anymore.

1089
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:53,000
I mean, nowadays it's, it's very
difficult to come up.

1090
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:55,000
Well, there's so many people
working on so many different

1091
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:59,280
things that it becomes almost
easier to fall into this

1092
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,520
relativist trap where because
there's so many people doing so

1093
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:07,200
many different things and
because experts, well, tend to

1094
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:12,720
have these views on science
particularly well, well, Brian,

1095
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:14,720
as you know, there's the realm
of philosophy known as

1096
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,080
scientism.
And, and I think that's where

1097
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:19,200
you get caught into this trap,
of course, where people are

1098
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,440
calling you out and being like,
that's scientism.

1099
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:26,480
You, you fall into this branch
of people who, who, who do not

1100
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:29,640
fundamentally, who are not open
to other sources of, of

1101
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:32,200
knowledge.
And, and I, I often get caught,

1102
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:35,000
caught out in the same thing.
And yet we're still open to this

1103
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:36,480
discourse.
I mean, you just spoke about the

1104
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:39,320
fact that you're not really you,
you're, you're not, you're not

1105
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:43,800
technically a believer, but you
are practicing in a specific

1106
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:45,320
way.
I mean, I often say I'm

1107
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:48,480
ontologically agnostic regarding
the, the, the nature of the

1108
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:50,960
universe and God.
But I would say

1109
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:54,520
epistemologically and knowledge
wise, I do consider myself to be

1110
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:57,240
certain the sort of atheist with
99.9%.

1111
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,480
I still leave room for it.
I don't close it off, but you

1112
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:03,080
can never be 100% certain on
anything and.

1113
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:07,640
Yeah, no, I agree.
And it's it's a form again of,

1114
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:11,120
of, of hubris, of, you know,
chutzpah, arrogance.

1115
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:14,360
However you want to say is that,
you know, thousands of years

1116
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,080
people have debated this, the
greatest minds in human history.

1117
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,320
And you or me, you know, Brian
Keating has somehow found this

1118
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:23,000
obvious example for even people
like Lawrence Krauss.

1119
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:24,960
I mean, again, I debated with
him about it.

1120
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:26,840
You know, he has his own
objections.

1121
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:29,600
He's another Jews, atheist,
militant atheist.

1122
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:34,320
And you know, to, to, to again,
these people, often times they,

1123
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:37,920
they do a very cursory
examination when and or maybe

1124
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:41,080
they're still precocious like
Sam and Lawrence, that by age

1125
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:43,400
13, when they had their bar
mitzvahs or whatever, they

1126
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:47,920
realized this wasn't for them.
And yet, and yet they're left

1127
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:50,800
then for the rest of their lives
with their 13 year old

1128
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:54,960
interpretation of these various
facts about their religion,

1129
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:58,040
which may or may not have been
provisional, wrong,

1130
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:03,000
misunderstood.
I mean, if you went to a 13, a

1131
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,280
13 year old came up to Lawrence
Krauss.

1132
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:07,960
I asked him this and said, you
know, your book, a universe from

1133
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,640
nothing is total garbage.
And I, I know better.

1134
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:13,280
And I, I figured this out and
he'd be like, well, how old are

1135
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:14,000
you?
Oh, I'm 13.

1136
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:15,360
He's he wouldn't even entertain
the guy.

1137
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:18,640
I mean, go to Graduate School,
get a PhD, understand quantum

1138
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:21,480
field theory, understand the
Friedman, Robertson, Walker

1139
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,040
metric and general relativity,
and then we can have a

1140
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:26,160
discussion.
But no, you don't have to do

1141
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:28,080
that when it comes to religion,
because religion is easy and

1142
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:30,280
it's just based on taste and you
can't debate taste.

1143
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:33,680
So why why even entertain such
people?

1144
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,400
And I think, I think there's a
little bit of arrogance that

1145
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,760
goes with with sort of those
sorts of intellectual approaches

1146
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:42,160
or non intellectual, anti
intellectual approaches to it

1147
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:44,760
rather than engaging with it,
because I think it's different

1148
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:48,240
for religion than even, you
know, the multiverse, because

1149
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:52,360
they would have to presumably,
if I could prove God existed to

1150
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:54,440
you, Tevin, you might change
your behavior.

1151
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:57,760
You, you might act differently.
You know, you nobody's acting,

1152
01:01:57,760 --> 01:01:59,760
you know, perfectly Florida
State, right.

1153
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:02,040
So you might and and it might be
not be my religion.

1154
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:04,800
You know what if it's, you know,
some, some, you know, religion

1155
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,400
that we don't even contemplate,
that we reject because it's, I

1156
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:09,160
don't know, pantheistic or
whatever.

1157
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:13,160
The point is, if you could find
some logical refutation for it,

1158
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:16,840
then you'd be sort of a mental
patient if you didn't follow the

1159
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:21,360
the precepts of that religion.
And so therefore you, you are

1160
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:22,960
encumbered.
And there's a natural

1161
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:27,040
inclination for atheist, I found
to not want to entertain, maybe

1162
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,520
even be openly hostile, as I
found Sam and and and Lawrence

1163
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:33,600
to be building up over decades
of resentment towards

1164
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:35,600
predominantly Christian
fundamentals.

1165
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:38,320
You know, to give them their you
know, their their perspective

1166
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:42,640
and their due, but nevertheless
to to rule out every aspect of

1167
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:46,040
religion, say everything about
it's false and not even

1168
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:48,840
entertain it as beneath them.
I think that that's not

1169
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:52,480
intellectual.
Yeah, I think, I think people

1170
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:54,920
have to have that sort of that's
where this open discourse comes

1171
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:56,680
into play.
And I don't want people to feel

1172
01:02:56,680 --> 01:03:00,240
like the just you have to be
professional.

1173
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,480
Let's say you have to have the
PhD, you have to sort of be a

1174
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:06,840
professor, but you have to put
in the work that's.

1175
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:09,960
What I mean?
You have to have some sort of a

1176
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:13,120
background foundation that's
based in this realm.

1177
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:15,520
That's why starting the
conversation with definitions.

1178
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:17,840
I know it was a tough one to
just be like, what is space-time

1179
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:20,720
and matter?
It's important because you and I

1180
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:23,920
could be talking about
completely different things and,

1181
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:26,600
and just go around in circles.
It doesn't really matter.

1182
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:29,280
I mean, if you ask, I mean,
Jordan Peterson, what is, who is

1183
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:30,000
God?
What is God?

1184
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:33,800
I mean, you'll get like 20
different answers, but you ask

1185
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:36,280
like someone like Sam Harris,
who is God and he'll say no one,

1186
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:38,200
nothing.
It's simple.

1187
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:41,520
Yes or no question for them.
Exactly.

1188
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:47,760
When you when you started this
podcast, Brian, did you feel

1189
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:51,800
that it would grow into this
phenomenal, phenomenal podcast

1190
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:53,600
that it is today?
Did you ever feel that it would

1191
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:59,400
reach these heights?
No, I, I don't think so.

1192
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,920
I mean, most podcasts end after
seven episodes or something like

1193
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:05,520
that.
So I think I'm on 420 or

1194
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,080
something now.
But, and that's not a

1195
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:10,600
coincidence, that number, I know
Elon Musk likes that number, but

1196
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:12,000
I, I think that's literally what
I'm on.

1197
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:15,880
So yeah, I, I, I think nobody
really, you know, can expect to

1198
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:17,880
have success because it's
dependent on other people.

1199
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:20,600
And when you when you look at,
you know, sort of how many

1200
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:24,880
people have subscribed and
watched almost up to 50 million

1201
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:28,080
total downloads and views and
listens and you know, it's

1202
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:30,160
incredibly gratifying to to see
it.

1203
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:33,560
It is also very slow and I still
feel like it's under subscribed

1204
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:36,720
and under it gets too little
attention, not because of my

1205
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:39,200
brilliance, although that's a
part No, but but because of the

1206
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:40,880
guess that I'm getting.
I mean, like you said, I mean,

1207
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:44,360
nobody's had on 19 Nobel Prize
winners and had deep discussions

1208
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:46,880
where they involved the audience
in the questions.

1209
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:49,960
And don't shy away from it.
I think we've got, you know, I

1210
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:53,400
hired a production team a year
ago almost to, to really up the

1211
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:58,960
audio, video quality, shorts,
clips, background footage, you

1212
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:02,320
know, edits and and quality of
it and, you know, spend a lot of

1213
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:04,400
money on it.
I don't get paid for it.

1214
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:06,000
The university doesn't give me a
dime.

1215
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:08,640
They don't even, you know, half
the time want to know about it

1216
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:11,760
because I'll have
uncontroversial people like Sam

1217
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:15,240
Harris or, you know, Ben
Shapiro, God forbid I had on so

1218
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:17,680
Jordan Peterson.
So having, you know, those,

1219
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:21,640
those the university might not
be so positively disposed to,

1220
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:24,360
but whatever they they give me
some license and liberty to do

1221
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:26,880
it.
But you know, really, I feel

1222
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:28,720
like it's sort of just
beginning.

1223
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:32,400
It's hoping to ramp up and, and
grow, not just for growth's

1224
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:35,200
sake, because that is dependent
on an external metric that you

1225
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:38,920
can't control, whereas the
quality improving it constantly

1226
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:41,280
running experiments to see what
works and what doesn't.

1227
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:46,000
And, and also talking with other
audiences like yours will, you

1228
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:49,480
know, kind of be the thing that
supercharges the, the, you know,

1229
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:51,200
attention.
But, but when I talk to people

1230
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:53,840
that are very successful, have
millions of subscribers, you

1231
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:55,920
know, they'll always say, well,
what is your podcast competing

1232
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:59,120
against?
And I'll say, you know, Tevin's

1233
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:02,440
or you know, Kurt Jai Mungal or
Lex Friedman, They'll be like,

1234
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:05,200
no, you idiot, It's competing
against like Mr. Beasts, you

1235
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:08,880
know, I'll give $100,000 if you
can sit on top of the Burj

1236
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:12,000
Khalifa for, for three months.
You know, it's, it's competing

1237
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:14,040
with, you know, my daughters
love to watch, you know,

1238
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:16,880
unboxing videos of like Silly
Putty.

1239
01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:19,560
You know, it's just.
Whatever videos like the baby

1240
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:22,200
show time online.
Royalty family got it.

1241
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:24,680
If I have to hear that that
theme song again, at least it's

1242
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:27,840
not like Nastia anymore.
That was that was a phase.

1243
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,680
So, you know, my boys aren't I
just want to watch, you know, a

1244
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:32,320
cyber truck and you know this
thing.

1245
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:35,920
And so I guess the point is, you
know, you can't really expect

1246
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:37,480
it.
You can't also influence it.

1247
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:39,240
You know, it's almost impossible
to grow it.

1248
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:41,400
There's no other way to do it
than word of mouth.

1249
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:44,320
And kind of every now and then
they'll have some viral, kind of

1250
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:47,600
semi viral video.
But even, you know, the thing

1251
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:50,400
I'm most worried about is kind
of audience capture and, and,

1252
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:53,800
you know, I'm glad to see that
that our friend Kurt has kind of

1253
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:57,440
done less in the way of, of
aliens and conversations with,

1254
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:00,720
you know, Lou Elizondo.
And I'm sure he will continue to

1255
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:03,160
have such conversations.
But for a while it was all he

1256
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:07,000
was doing and even he and I did
a joint episode together with

1257
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:12,240
Tom Delong, you know, the blink
182 fame and and the this to the

1258
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:15,120
Stars Academy.
And I felt, you know, a little

1259
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:18,320
gross after that.
But but but with with Kurt's

1260
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:22,040
help, we made it through.
So you guys have to worry about.

1261
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:25,040
Yeah, we, we, we had a, we had a
chat about that and oh.

1262
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:29,280
Yeah, what did he say?
Yeah, but it's a he, he was, I

1263
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:32,320
mean, he has calmed down on it,
but I think he he, when he finds

1264
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:34,400
interest in it, he will go back
into it.

1265
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:36,360
And I think, yeah, I think I'm,
I'm a little bit.

1266
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:39,320
I mean, my girlfriend made this,
this cup for me just with the

1267
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:42,920
logo of, of my.
But she, but she also added like

1268
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:45,680
just for to, to the, to
highlight my love for space.

1269
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:48,240
She's got a she added a little
bit of that.

1270
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:51,800
But I mean, I mean, Harvey
Lobo's probably the only person

1271
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:55,160
I spoke to who's been on the
podcast who he fundamentally

1272
01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:56,560
believes that.
I know you've also spoken to him

1273
01:07:56,560 --> 01:08:02,160
about it, his scientific search.
At most I think that if we do

1274
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:06,760
find something, it would be
something akin to bacteria, some

1275
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:12,320
sort of a cellular basic life
form, unless I'm completely

1276
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:15,520
wrong.
Yeah, I, I guess, I guess

1277
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:18,240
that's, you know, you have to be
open to that fact that you could

1278
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:21,359
be completely wrong.
You know, I, I don't believe

1279
01:08:21,359 --> 01:08:24,439
that it's, that it's possible
right now to say that there's

1280
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:28,399
any evidence for the existence
of alien life, even bacteria,

1281
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:30,640
you know, simply there is no
evidence for it.

1282
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:33,640
But then there's even greater
claims of, you know, the

1283
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:35,840
existence of extraterrestrial
technology.

1284
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:37,960
So what do you do with those
types of claims?

1285
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:41,560
I I feel like, yeah, as long as
it's harmless, it's fine.

1286
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:44,600
I, I don't think that certain
people can remain harmless.

1287
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:46,880
Like, I think, you know, you
could say, well, attacking the

1288
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:49,520
moon landing is harmless because
you know who's gonna hurt Neil

1289
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:50,359
Armstrong?
He's dead.

1290
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:53,560
But it's something different.
It's undermining the credibility

1291
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:57,880
of an institution like NASA that
is really rubs me the wrong way

1292
01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:01,279
because we rely on that every
time we get on a yeah, we get on

1293
01:09:01,279 --> 01:09:05,120
an airplane, you know, it's been
tested, you know, despite the

1294
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:07,200
Boeings and so forth.
But the, the fundamental

1295
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:11,319
technology of how airplane skin
is attached to rivets and stuff

1296
01:09:11,319 --> 01:09:12,680
like that, That's that's not
Boeing.

1297
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:16,399
That was NASA high altitude
research, supersonic research,

1298
01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:20,240
space travel and say, well, no,
these things are impossible

1299
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:23,560
because of the Van Allen belts
and, you know, just total not

1300
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:25,279
like this guy's a
cinematographer.

1301
01:09:25,279 --> 01:09:27,399
He's like he's made conspiracy
movies.

1302
01:09:27,399 --> 01:09:29,399
It's listed as his Wikipedia
entry.

1303
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:33,000
He's a conspiracy theorist.
And OK, well, that has a, you

1304
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:36,640
know, I believe in a conspiracy.
You know, that the, you know,

1305
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:40,200
that the Soviet Union was going
to invade, you know, Poland or,

1306
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:42,680
you know, whatever.
Yes, OK, some conspiracies are

1307
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:44,880
true, so I'm not.
That proves all the more so I'm

1308
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:47,720
not using it as a pejorative,
but that's simply what he does.

1309
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:51,279
And then to trust him as some
expert on lighting, you know,

1310
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:55,520
you know, and, and studios and,
and, and the history of 1960s,

1311
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:58,480
you know, and he's like less
than 60 years old himself.

1312
01:09:58,480 --> 01:10:01,320
So he's 10 years old, 12 years
old doing a doing a, you know,

1313
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:04,280
documentary research to falsify
it back then.

1314
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:07,200
So it's just sort of nonsense.
But it it does irritate me and

1315
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:10,080
rubs rubs me the wrong way
because it's undermining.

1316
01:10:10,480 --> 01:10:12,720
There are very few things that
American people should agree

1317
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:14,320
upon.
And I got a lot of pushback.

1318
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:16,240
Like people say what's wrong
with the Nobel Prize?

1319
01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:18,800
It's, you know, it's just like
harmless celebration of

1320
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:20,240
scientists and we need more of
that.

1321
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:21,560
Right.
Keating, you're a scientist.

1322
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:23,880
Yes, it is.
But you should also say that

1323
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:25,600
everything can be reformed for
the better.

1324
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:26,760
But these people aren't saying
that.

1325
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:29,640
They're not saying like, let's
get rid of the fact that only

1326
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:32,400
three people can win a Nobel
Prize so more people can win it

1327
01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:34,840
and share in the credit and
share the love of science.

1328
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:38,560
So I'm advocating for ensuring
the legacy of Alfred Nobel in my

1329
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:41,920
book, my first book in part,
mostly it's a memoir about being

1330
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:43,760
a cosmologist than than anything
else.

1331
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:47,960
But the, the fact is, if, if you
say that, well, we shouldn't

1332
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:50,320
trust anything NASA says because
it's the government and the

1333
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:55,360
government lied to us about 911
or, or COVID or, you know, or

1334
01:10:55,760 --> 01:10:59,840
JFK, then I, I think we're in
deep, deep Doo Doo because

1335
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:04,920
there's no thing that it should
be more universally celebrated

1336
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:07,600
than something like NASA is
contributing to the exploration

1337
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:10,120
of the universe, which is, you
know, people like Elon Musk and

1338
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:12,360
everybody say, oh, we have to
get off this planet or where are

1339
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:14,680
you going to go?
You know, if you don't trust in

1340
01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:18,080
NASA and space exploration,
which Elon Musk believes we can

1341
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:20,600
go through the Van Allen belts.
Are you saying that you, Bart

1342
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:24,520
Sibrel, are smarter than Neil
than not just Neil, Neil

1343
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:26,840
Armstrong.
But then Elon Musk, I mean, it's

1344
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:30,120
Ludacris hubris.
Well, I, I still remember Daniel

1345
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:33,480
Dennett, rest in peace to him.
Someone I really wanted on this

1346
01:11:33,480 --> 01:11:36,880
podcast and, and I wish I could
have him on the show.

1347
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:39,480
I'm sure you're familiar with
Daniel Dennett.

1348
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:42,400
Oh.
I had him on.

1349
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:45,880
I, I, he was my he, I I did the
final interview he ever did.

1350
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:50,640
I see, so I'm I'm so jealous.
I mean, I mean, I I so sad to

1351
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:53,520
think that I'm I'm thinking of
having him on my podcast post

1352
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:57,400
the way I mean he's pretty sick,
but he's really was the guy.

1353
01:11:57,400 --> 01:12:00,840
He was the number one pick for
like if I could have someone on

1354
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:04,320
the show, whereas Daniel did it.
Yeah, I found him very charming,

1355
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:08,040
just delightful.
Not unafraid, very courageous,

1356
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:15,720
you know, you know, it was a
incredible, incredible intellect

1357
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:20,440
and and I think, you know, to to
think about what what, you know,

1358
01:12:20,440 --> 01:12:24,440
we could have had, you know, in
this in the past 10 years with

1359
01:12:24,440 --> 01:12:27,160
people like Hitchens and Hawk
and and Dawkins.

1360
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:31,640
And, you know, it's just, it's
been an amazing time for, for,

1361
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:35,080
you know, many, many different
subjects, but, but especially

1362
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:38,840
exciting for things that are
coming up with, with our field

1363
01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:41,200
and the podcast as well.
And I'm really grateful that you

1364
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:43,280
had me on.
I got to go to my own interview

1365
01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:46,320
soon.
So to have another guest on, but

1366
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:49,080
it's been such a blast to have
this conversation with you.

1367
01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:51,320
It's, it's great to have, you
know, I hate it when they go on

1368
01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:54,680
and the, the host has not
prepared anything and just has

1369
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:57,040
no, you know, I, I know that
people have done that.

1370
01:12:57,040 --> 01:12:59,200
Larry King used to do that.
But I I really do salute

1371
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:02,200
everything you're doing.
No, I mean, I'm, I'm a huge fan.

1372
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:03,480
Thank you.
Thank you so much, Brian.

1373
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:07,000
My channel, when I look at it,
whenever I look at my

1374
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:09,640
statistics, you're always there.
I always see that pink bright

1375
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:12,800
big logo right behind your face
that I think like everybody's

1376
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:15,560
watching our videos.
Mutual fans, mutual respect and

1377
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:18,760
love your show, love your
podcast and also love even more

1378
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:22,480
the work that you do as a
cosmologist, as a physicist and

1379
01:13:22,480 --> 01:13:25,720
someone who experiments and
proves theorists wrong.

1380
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:27,920
And, and I appreciate your work,
man.

1381
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:31,240
Thank you so much.
Devin, thank you so much and I

1382
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:33,760
hope you have a great, great day
down there.

1383
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:36,760
And I hope maybe we can visit
and do a podcast in person.

1384
01:13:37,440 --> 01:13:40,000
That's the final frontier.
It would be an absolute honor.

1385
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:42,200
Thank you, Brian.
Thank you my friend.

1386
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:43,040
Take care.
Bye bye.