Is The Brain an Analog Computer? Consciousness as Dynamic Brainwave Organization | Earl Miller

1
00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:09,520
Well, thank you so much for
joining me.

2
00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:11,000
Been looking forward to this
conversation.

3
00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:13,400
Me too.
Great.

4
00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,720
Thanks for having me.
My pleasure, my pleasure, man.

5
00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:17,560
It's it's a privilege to chat to
you.

6
00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,600
Your work is so diverse and so
much to explore.

7
00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,800
But I think let's just kick off
by framing this mind brain

8
00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,680
relationship in your work, you
sort of emphasize that the brain

9
00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,680
does not operate as much like a
digital computer, but rather

10
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,720
like an analog system using
dynamic waves for computation.

11
00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,920
What key science do you think we
miss when we merely look at the

12
00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,000
brain as something that
processes information industry

13
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,680
steps, perhaps without taking
into account your broader

14
00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,680
perspective?
Yeah, it's the whole like the

15
00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,160
20th century model of how the
brain, especially cortex, works.

16
00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,840
That's what I focus on because
I'm interested in in cognition,

17
00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,480
the 20th century model of how
cognition works.

18
00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,040
In other words, the model that I
was trained on when I was a

19
00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,600
graduate student was this
connectionist model where

20
00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:11,040
neurons, they, they're, they act
as specialized detectors or each

21
00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:12,840
neurons as one specific
function.

22
00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,960
Then they converge on to other
neurons in a further stage of

23
00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:18,920
processing and those other
neurons combine the signals and

24
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:20,040
they get something else out of
it.

25
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,280
Then they combine, combine,
combine with snap is acting kind

26
00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:29,240
of like logic gates, an analogy
to digital computers.

27
00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:35,320
And eventually, you know, you
have 100, you know, 2010 20

28
00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:38,760
billion neurons in your cortex.
And eventually, you know, you

29
00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,080
can do enough combining and
eventually you get the peace,

30
00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:45,000
love and understanding.
And you know, that was, I'm not

31
00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,960
saying that is wrong because
first of all, you know, some of

32
00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:51,360
the brain does work like that.
Some of the brain does work by

33
00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,600
storing information in in, in
synaptic patterns of synaptic

34
00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,120
connections and and weights.
It's what AI is based on.

35
00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:04,400
AI has been successful to some
limited degree, but that that's

36
00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,400
the way we always thought about
how the brain works is that the

37
00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,480
the information is stored by
modifying connections in the in

38
00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,320
the brain.
And that seems to be largely

39
00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,560
true.
But then also that the brain

40
00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,680
kind of works like, well, AI is
based on the old 20th century

41
00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,800
model brain.
Is that the brain works by

42
00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,840
shifting connections around.
When your cortex computes and

43
00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,400
does cognition does all this
computation you needed for, you

44
00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:29,800
know, peace, love, and
understanding.

45
00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,440
It does it by shifting around
the connection.

46
00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,240
So the connections store
information over the long term.

47
00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,120
Then you shift them around in
order to come up with answers.

48
00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,280
And that's what AI is based on.
And what I'm claiming is that,

49
00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:48,120
or I'm positing is that the
cortex storing information by by

50
00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,320
synaptic connections is fine.
That's probably the way it

51
00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,240
works.
But computation that way doesn't

52
00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:57,520
make any sense because high
level cognition is a is

53
00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,120
organized thought, right?
You organize your thoughts

54
00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,880
around goals and plans and
intentions and motivations.

55
00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,080
Like right now you're listening
to me for a reason and you're

56
00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,640
processing everything I'm saying
hopefully.

57
00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,720
And when you do that, you know,
even simple act of focusing

58
00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,440
attention requires that you,
your brain somehow organizes the

59
00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,320
activity of hundreds of millions
of neurons simultaneously,

60
00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,960
right?
And it's not just that you know,

61
00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:27,600
the the the information flowing
through predefined pathways by

62
00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,120
synaptic connections, your brain
is doing self organization.

63
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,440
You're choosing what to pay
attention to you, you're

64
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,000
choosing what goal you're going
after.

65
00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,760
You have your own plan in mind.
So a lot of the brains

66
00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,520
organization is driven by its
own internal control system.

67
00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,240
So I'm pausing that it it's just
impossible or seems

68
00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,800
computationally intractable to
design a system where the

69
00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:49,720
control is done to the level of
connections.

70
00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,640
Cause some of the brain would
have to modify a gazillion

71
00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,360
connections and a gazillion
synapses all simultaneously on

72
00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,600
the on the fly in in real time.
And that just seems impossible

73
00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,920
to me.
But a very easy way to do that,

74
00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,400
or a relatively easy way to do
that is to do that with waves,

75
00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,160
because what a wave is, an
electrical wave in your brain is

76
00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,080
a pattern of excitation and
inhibition.

77
00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:13,680
That's what an electrical wave
is.

78
00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,200
You have a phase where it's high
energy and a phase where it's

79
00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:17,720
low energy.
So right.

80
00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,640
And the waves operate on, on a
much larger scale, on the scale

81
00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,680
of on a mezzo scale of like
hundreds and hundreds of

82
00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,160
millions in neurons.
They operate in that spatial

83
00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,880
scale.
Well, oscillations then are a

84
00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,080
great way for the brain to
organize itself on the scale and

85
00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,000
need to do real cognition.
And why waves instead of the

86
00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,400
gazillion synapses, modifying
the gazillion synapses, because

87
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,920
wave functions are
mathematically easy.

88
00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,760
They're they're a very
computationally tractable way

89
00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,400
for the brain to organize
itself.

90
00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,000
So that's one thing.
Then the second thing, I'm

91
00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,320
giving you a whole nutshell.
Now the other thing is that that

92
00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,880
the I think these waves, they
come together and they actually

93
00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,680
perform real computation, analog
computation.

94
00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,120
The waves coming together
produce new wave patterns in a

95
00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,160
computationally principled way
through analog computation and

96
00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,440
that turns around in the wave
patterns and turn on and

97
00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:08,720
influence underlying spiking.
It's a two way St.

98
00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,520
The spikes create the wave
patterns, the wave patterns

99
00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,520
interact to create new wave
patterns that turns around and

100
00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,720
and influences the spiking.
And just for a brief tutorial

101
00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,480
about what analog computing is.
So digital could be every of

102
00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,520
those digital computing you do
with all ones and zeros.

103
00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,480
Well, analog computing uses
continuously varying signals

104
00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,040
like a wave.
And the event of continuously

105
00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,280
varying signals is first of all,
the since they're continuously

106
00:05:32,280 --> 00:05:36,880
varying, they're ordered and the
real world uses is made of

107
00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:38,880
continuously varying signals.
So you don't have to break the

108
00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,320
world down into ones and zeros
to compute it.

109
00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,880
You're computing the world based
on the kind of signals that are

110
00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,560
out there.
But here's here's the trick

111
00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,520
about about analog computing is
imagine 2 sine waves, right And

112
00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,160
you slide them past one another.
Now when you do that, it's just

113
00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,240
going to be just all audio is a
video too.

114
00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,680
It is OK magic 2 slime sine
waves sliding past one another

115
00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:05,840
with the two identical sine
waves.

116
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,800
When they line up, you get a you
have them together, you get a

117
00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,680
sine wave.
It's double the size of the two.

118
00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,840
And when they misalign 180°,
they cancel each other out.

119
00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,720
Well, there were two sine waves,
one frequency, 2 identical sine

120
00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,200
waves.
You've just done additional

121
00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,200
subtraction.
Now your brain can do, your

122
00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,720
brain can do this with waves
with multiple frequencies.

123
00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,160
Your brain operates for
everywhere from 1 Hertz to blow

124
00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,400
up to 100 Hertz or more.
So your brain could do that

125
00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,920
across multiple frequencies
simultaneously, and it also

126
00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:35,960
could do it in three dimensions,
not one dimension.

127
00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,640
And so there's a lot of room for
a lot of complex computation

128
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,680
there.
And that's not speculation.

129
00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,360
People have done things like
matrix algebra, differential

130
00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,520
equations, using analog waves,
and the advantage of it over

131
00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,240
digital computation and logic
case.

132
00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,520
The way you usually think of the
brain, the way AI thinks of the

133
00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,880
brain, is that analog computing
is very computationally energy

134
00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,640
efficient.
When two waves come together,

135
00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,880
the way you model an equation is
is the geometry of how the waves

136
00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,040
are going to collide together,
how the waves come together,

137
00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:07,920
right?
That's how you model the

138
00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,240
equation.
But all the variables used as a

139
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,000
computation are in the different
parts of different phases of the

140
00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,400
wave.
So with two wave patterns come

141
00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,760
together, the whole equation
gets solved in parallel.

142
00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,240
Whereas digital isn't inherently
sequential.

143
00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,760
That's that means analog
computing is way way way way.

144
00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,560
I can add 15 more ways in there.
Way more energy efficient than

145
00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,240
than than digital computing.
Computing by logic gates and

146
00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,000
computing by moving around
connections.

147
00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,400
That's why you know they're
building nuclear power plants

148
00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,840
and hydroelectric plants to
power AI now.

149
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,680
And AI ain't so smart, whereas
you're far more capable.

150
00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,120
Brain runs on about 20 watts of
power, or about the power of a

151
00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,280
dim light bulb.
So clearly brains are doing

152
00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,000
something fundamentally
different.

153
00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,200
And I suggested you're just
doing it by analog computation.

154
00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,360
So the synaptic weights and the
spiking, the snaptic weights

155
00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,840
store information.
The spiking expresses that

156
00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:03,600
information and creates wave
patterns.

157
00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:05,880
Then the wave patterns come
together and create new wave

158
00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,200
patterns that turns around and
influences the spiking.

159
00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:10,560
And Bob's your uncle.
You have cognition.

160
00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,320
There's there's so much to
unpack there.

161
00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:17,520
I feel like when you talk about
the effectiveness, I mean you

162
00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:23,200
just mentioned how we require so
much less energy to do so much

163
00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,760
more with what we have
evolutionary.

164
00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,560
When you look back, what would
be the pre conditions for

165
00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,240
something like this to occur?
Why would this be important to

166
00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,240
occur in the brain, particularly
in your region, the prefrontal

167
00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:36,720
cortex?
I mean, when does this happen?

168
00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,360
Why does?
All over the brain, not just the

169
00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,280
prefrontal cortex.
But yeah, yeah, case, yeah,

170
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:43,840
maybe you don't.
You don't need other things like

171
00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,400
oscillations of waves, maybe at
the neuromuscular junction or

172
00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,960
maybe initial sensory encoding.
But everything behind that, the

173
00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,760
waves, we can we can take over.
So how and why?

174
00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:56,200
Well, one reason we have to keep
in mind is that biology favors

175
00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,080
energy efficient solutions.
A pretty good definition of life

176
00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,520
is local reverses and entropy
using as little energy as

177
00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,760
possible.
So biology does not embrace high

178
00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,800
energy solutions.
And right now the way people are

179
00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,600
trying to create general AI is
to use this inefficient digital

180
00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,920
connectionist based computation
and just throw tons of energy at

181
00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,280
it.
Not how biology solves problems.

182
00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:21,200
So how'd this come about?
Well, you connect a bunch of

183
00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,600
electrical circuits together.
There's a lot of recurrent

184
00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:25,400
connections in in your systems,
right?

185
00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,240
But any, you collect any network
of, of, of electrical units,

186
00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,160
especially when you have
recurrent connections, they'll

187
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,360
naturally begin to oscillate.
So think about what nervous

188
00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,760
systems were just evolving very
primitive.

189
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,080
The first nervous systems began
to just naturally oscillate

190
00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:42,760
'cause that's what electrical
circuits will do.

191
00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,960
Before that, you know, any
simple creature can, can swim

192
00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:51,040
towards light or swim towards
food up a food gradients.

193
00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,680
You know, that's a simple
reaction to the environment.

194
00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,000
That's the environment dictating
what the system will do.

195
00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,480
But our brains, again, we self
organize.

196
00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,120
We have our own internal
organization and what, what I

197
00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,480
speculate is that very early on
when nervous system started to

198
00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:08,560
evolve, they became complex
enough.

199
00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:11,520
And it doesn't take that much
complexity, but being a complex

200
00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,080
enough to begin to oscillate.
So what?

201
00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,880
And that's sort of just just
oscillating away.

202
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,040
Now that's, that's a dumb form
of organization, but it is a

203
00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,520
form of organization because
once electrosteers start

204
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,720
oscillating, they now have an
internal organization that's

205
00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:27,920
separate from the the
environment.

206
00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,320
Then all that all evolution had
to do, and I put all in quotes,

207
00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:34,480
all evolution had to do was
figure out ways to push around

208
00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,040
those oscillations, push around
those oscillatory dynamics.

209
00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,600
And now you have a mechanism
that can that where the where

210
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,520
the nervous systems can control
themselves.

211
00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,360
And does this happen late in
evolution?

212
00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,720
No, Drosophila has oscillating
electric fields in a fact, in a

213
00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:50,800
fact that electrical effects a
fact.

214
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:55,760
The coupling C elegans friend of
mine, Steve Flavelli studies C

215
00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:01,360
elegans little worm and the, the
worm has a basically 2 modes of

216
00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,160
a behavioral repertoire.
It, it exploits or it explores.

217
00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:07,160
And the exploiting is all,
there's some food here, I'm

218
00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,720
going to stay underneath the
food and the explorer is all the

219
00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:11,440
food's gone, I better go find
some food.

220
00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,480
And the way that works with C
elegans is the, the, the C

221
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,720
elegans when it's exploiting,
its, its body is gets around by

222
00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,840
its body wiggling, wiggling.
So when it's exploiting, when

223
00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,000
it's staying in place, it's high
frequency wiggles at low

224
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,880
amplitude.
So it stays in place.

225
00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,160
Then when it wants to explore,
the body shifts into low

226
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,280
frequency of high amplitude and
then wiggles, wiggles away.

227
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,360
If you look at the nervous
system, the C elegans, it's

228
00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,560
shaped like a spiral going down
its body.

229
00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,360
I mean, the whole repertoire of,
of the, of the creature is based

230
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,960
on oscillatory dynamics and his
whole nervous system seems set

231
00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:50,920
up to exploit those oscillatory
dynamics.

232
00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:52,720
And that's like very early in
evolution.

233
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,000
It it, it's almost like a shift
occurring where people are

234
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,400
noticing that the, the type of
information we've been looking

235
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,160
at all this time has been
incorrect.

236
00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,600
I mean, there's so much more
variance and so many more

237
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,160
variables that we could consider
and include when it comes to the

238
00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,040
search to understand the mind or
the brain.

239
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,280
Do you find that this is
something that's occurring, this

240
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,280
shift where people are starting
to see the finer details when it

241
00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,600
comes to experience and life in
general?

242
00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,640
Absolutely.
I mean, when I was, it's a very

243
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,280
different perspective and shift
from when I was a graduate

244
00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:26,680
student.
When I was a graduate student,

245
00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,000
people, you said you want to
study oscillations.

246
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,040
People would think you were
studying like, you know, fairy

247
00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,120
dust or something or magic.
You know, why do you want to

248
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,160
study that?
That's what doctors use to

249
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,560
measure, you know, how well your
brain is functioning.

250
00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:40,960
It's like the humming of a car
engine doesn't make the engine

251
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:42,720
run.
So why would you study that?

252
00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:44,800
Well, first of all, let's stop
right there and say that analogy

253
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,680
is wrong because if you don't
design A car engine, so the

254
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,880
vibrations are self reinforcing,
the engine will break itself

255
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:52,600
apart.
So actually the vibrations do

256
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,960
help the engine run.
But let's, so it was an

257
00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,440
imperfect analogy to begin with,
but, but now if there's

258
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,240
definitely a shift, I mean, if
you've ever read Thomas Kuhn's

259
00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,080
structure of Scientific
revolutions, I mean, the single

260
00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,120
neuron connectionism approach
was, was very dominant in the

261
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,240
latter half of the 20th century.
And now there's definitely been

262
00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,160
a pendulum.
So people are really starting to

263
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:16,200
look at this seriously.
Now.

264
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,360
Let while you were looking,
there's always going to be a few

265
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,120
people who are resisting the the
and hanging on to the old parent

266
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,520
cause science is done by people.
But I want to make this one

267
00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,040
point that when you use the word
incorrect to this grab the old

268
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,320
paradigm, it's not incorrect.
There's a lot of things that the

269
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,280
brain that do work by by
connections and a lot of simple

270
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,880
stuff the brain does a lot of
like thermostat, like stuff that

271
00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,400
that can be used with feed
forward networks that just

272
00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:43,880
respond to inputs and produce
outputs.

273
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:45,400
A lot of the brain doesn't look
like that.

274
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,360
So it's not wrong in that sense.
And the other thing, the other

275
00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,760
important thing to keep in mind
is that it was an important

276
00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,280
stepping stone to where where we
are now.

277
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,520
I mean, if you want to figure
out something as complex in the

278
00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,760
brain, you don't dive into
oscillatory dynamics and all

279
00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,120
these computation and all these
high level cognition.

280
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,800
You got to start with figuring
out what the pieces are doing.

281
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,000
And then when you start figuring
out the part, then you could

282
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,800
build on that.
So we got to where we are now by

283
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:15,480
the old connectionist single
neuron focus spiking approach.

284
00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,800
That paradigm was an important
stepping stone to where we are

285
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:20,120
now.
So it wasn't, is it wrong?

286
00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,200
We wouldn't be where we are now
if it weren't for that.

287
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,000
And one day people will talk.
Hopefully, I hope one day people

288
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:27,960
will be talking about what I'm
talking about now and saying,

289
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,920
oh, that's, that was it wasn't
wrong, but it's incomplete.

290
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,200
I hope, because that's what
look, we have a long way to go

291
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:35,520
to figure out the brain.
So.

292
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,000
So no paradigm we have now is
complete by any sense of the

293
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,800
imagination, but everything
should be looked at as just as a

294
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,880
step forward, you know?
Yeah, yeah.

295
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:45,720
It's building upon the shoulders
of giants.

296
00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,040
We have to keep moving forward
and just building on that

297
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,280
knowledge.
But then, from your perspective

298
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,840
on brain waves organizing
cortical activity, is

299
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,640
consciousness something the
brain produces through local

300
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,320
computations, something it
coordinates across networks, or

301
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,800
something it participates in as
part of a broader, emergent

302
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,640
phenomena?
Oh, well, that, that's a

303
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,160
question of whether whether
consciousness is, is a product

304
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,360
of the brains or whether the
brain is cued into a universal

305
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,880
consciousness.
I, you know, I'm always open to

306
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,040
the possibility of there's,
there's a great understanding

307
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,600
about what we understand now.
So I can, I could, you know,

308
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:24,840
the, the quantum theories of
consciousness posit that the

309
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,040
universe is conscious and life
evolved to tap into tap into

310
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,760
that to take advantage of
universe's consciousness.

311
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,640
I'm not saying it's impossible.
I'm just saying that, you know,

312
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,320
we'd like to see more evidence
for.

313
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,840
But when it comes to the brain,
yeah, brains.

314
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,080
I mean, at the very least, I'm
going to say the brains.

315
00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,520
Brains are required for
consciousness.

316
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,520
Consciousness is not some spirit
or soul.

317
00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:47,960
It's something the brain does
right.

318
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,160
And the way I think about it is
through this analog, analog

319
00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:55,360
computation is that every major
biologically based theory of

320
00:15:55,360 --> 00:16:00,320
consciousness posits that
somehow the cortex gets unified

321
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,520
into a meta ensemble, a giant
functional network, and somehow

322
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,440
unites different parts of the
cortex.

323
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,960
And that makes sense because
consciousness is a unified

324
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,920
experience right now.
All the sights and sounds and

325
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,840
memories you're calling up and
even the ambient temperature in

326
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,360
the room, everything around you
is all contributing to this

327
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,240
experience that you're calling
consciousness.

328
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,880
It's a unified whole.
And it has to be a unified whole

329
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:24,480
because that's what
consciousness is used for.

330
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,680
Consciousness isn't.
I mean, a lot of times

331
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:28,360
consciousness is kind of a long
for the ride.

332
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,200
It's the story your brain makes
up to explain what it just did.

333
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:33,840
But consciousness is good for
two things.

334
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,080
It's good for planning behavior
and it's good for stopping you

335
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,280
from doing something stupid.
Your brain just thought of, you

336
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,960
know, and both those things
require a big picture.

337
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,560
So it makes sense that
consciousness would be a unified

338
00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,760
experience.
But that begs the question of

339
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,040
how does the brain create this
unified cortex that's going to

340
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,200
create this unified experience?
And that's letting the brain

341
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,440
wave patterns in the analog
computing does is there the and

342
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,520
this analog computing is taking
place both locally, you know,

343
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,079
where where local wave
interactions do local

344
00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:08,000
computations, but then they can
organize to a point where you

345
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,520
get these larger patterns of
organization that stretch across

346
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,640
the cortex.
So when the analog computations

347
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,319
produce wave patterns that
become large enough and

348
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:19,319
organized enough to to not just
unify, but organize the cortex,

349
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:21,480
then you have consciousness.
And that's the one thing that

350
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,520
that I where I differ from the
most biological theories of

351
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,480
consciousness like global
workspace or even IIT or high

352
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,000
order theories where they all
say the cortex has to be

353
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,920
unified.
Unified is important, but

354
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,680
organized too is also important.
The processing has got to be

355
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,600
organized and that's what waves
are are good for.

356
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,760
You ever see those pictures
where you know, you put a bunch

357
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,160
of sand on top of the speaker,
then you play different musical

358
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,960
notes and the sand organizes
itself into patterns that go

359
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,360
across the speaker real like
geometric patterns?

360
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:54,440
That's I think is a good
analogy.

361
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,720
So basically the electrical
brain waves are the sound

362
00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,960
vibrations and the spiking of
neurons are like the sand.

363
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,200
And when the wave patterns, when
the musical notes, when these

364
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,160
wave pattern electrical fields
that the that the brain is as a

365
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,040
result of analog computation,
when they become big enough and

366
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,880
organized enough to produce this
organized pattern across cortex.

367
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,000
That's that's really how you get
consciousness.

368
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,240
Well, I guess it because this is
a philosophy podcast which

369
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,240
focuses primarily on theories of
consciousness and the mind.

370
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,240
I mean, you have to then
consider if, if that is the

371
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:32,200
case, what are the factors
outside of our current, it's a

372
00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:36,280
status quo understanding of the
mind could impact the mind.

373
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,720
For example, if if let's say
there was some sort of a speaker

374
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,480
out there and our conscious
experience was the sand right

375
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,560
now, what what could be
interfering or affecting our

376
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,960
conscious experiences without us
knowing?

377
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,120
Well, I mean, one thing that
affects our conscious experience

378
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:55,160
is how people knowing it's our
own built in knowledge baked

379
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,800
into our brain, our own beliefs
and biases.

380
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,200
I mean, that's one way.
Another way, in addition to

381
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,840
analog versus digital
computation, it's one of the

382
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,960
ways that AI greatly differs
from from how brains actually

383
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,800
work.
AI just responds to inputs, just

384
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,520
responds to inputs.
What brains do is brains have a

385
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,120
constant narrative going on
where we're constantly placing

386
00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:17,560
ourselves into what am I doing
here?

387
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,520
Now what?
What's next thing I'm going to

388
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:20,880
say?
Why am I here?

389
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:22,720
Why am I doing this?
Your brain has a constant

390
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,240
narrative that keeps you
centered in in where you are.

391
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,200
And our brains have that running
and we check in with the outside

392
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,160
world occasionally.
That's more how the brains

393
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,440
brains work.
So what people don't realize is

394
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,840
that, you know, half of
perception or more is is you're

395
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:39,840
protecting your beliefs onto the
outside world.

396
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:41,240
You interpreting the outside
world.

397
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,400
You know, it takes, takes a good
half a second for your conscious

398
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,680
mind to catch up to something
that happened in the outside

399
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,440
world.
So a lot of what you're

400
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,800
experiencing has already has
already happened half a second

401
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,240
ago, which is a long time in, in
terms of brain processing.

402
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,000
So a lot of what you're
experiencing perception are your

403
00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,360
beliefs projecting onto the
outside world.

404
00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:01,200
So you can make sense of it to
account for thing, not only to

405
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,640
make sense of a very, you know,
complex world, but also to, to

406
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,040
make sense of a world where
you're actually delayed in, in,

407
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,200
in, in, in perceiving what,
what's happening.

408
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,520
This is why things like
eyewitness testimony is like the

409
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,800
worst testimony ever.
You ask 12 people what happened

410
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,360
after, after, after a crime or
an event happens.

411
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:19,880
You ask 10 people what happened
and you'll get 10 different

412
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:21,480
responses.
But that's what the movie

413
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,480
Rashman is based on, if you've
ever seen that.

414
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,400
So I think that's the main thing
then impinges our own

415
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,800
consciousness is that that our
own beliefs are doing and people

416
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,960
think, oh, if I I'm seeing
something in my own eyes.

417
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,520
No, you're believing something
with your own own eyes.

418
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,040
Yeah, we we tend to confabulate
far more than we could ever

419
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,080
imagine.
You certainly do.

420
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,320
Those split brain experiments
really highlight that.

421
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,760
And I think it's one of the
greatest ways to sort of show

422
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,160
how many minds we could possibly
have when when you take into

423
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,160
account that all of this needs
to be sort of connected in a

424
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,760
sense, as you said, not
necessarily unified, but

425
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,600
organized in a certain way.
And what's interesting about

426
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,720
that is the split brain studies,
you know, people thought of it

427
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,400
as as at first like, well, there
was 2, there's two consciousness

428
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,560
in the same skull.
But you study these patients

429
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,760
more closely and you realize
they're always doing something

430
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,880
to close the loop to unify the,
the, the two halves of the

431
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,760
brain, even though the brain,
just for your this thought that

432
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,520
split brain is this surgical
operation where you split the

433
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,440
brain down the middle to create
2 separate cerebral hemispheres.

434
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,320
And people used to do that for
intractable epilepsy.

435
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,320
And, and so it works.
It makes people much less

436
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:32,640
epileptic because now the
epileptic seizures don't spread

437
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,080
to the whole brain.
They stay on one side of the

438
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:35,800
brain.
So people get their lives back

439
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,840
and they're remarkably
unimpaired.

440
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,280
You could talk to somebody who
has a split brain procedure and

441
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,880
except for rare circumstances,
you couldn't even tell.

442
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,200
But they do tend to have like
their hands and operate

443
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,720
separately and stuff like that.
And at first it wasn't like

444
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,880
they'll be buttoning up their
shirt with one hand and

445
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,960
unbuttoning with the other one.
Those those kind of your there's

446
00:21:54,960 --> 00:22:00,080
case studies like that, but but
but people realize on a closer

447
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,160
examination that these patients
are always finding ways to close

448
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:04,680
the loop.
Often time it's a behavioral

449
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,960
thing like moving their heads
back and forth so both halves of

450
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,800
the brain can see the the image
they're moving their heads back

451
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,800
and forth more than more than a,
you know, a person who wasn't

452
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,960
normal control, as we say.
So even that thing where the two

453
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,400
conscious inside the skull isn't
quite true, because your brain's

454
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,640
always trying to find a way to
unify things, even if it's if

455
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,440
you didn't have to rely on
behavior in the outside world.

456
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,000
Well, I think that paints a
really good picture and sort of

457
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,560
gives us a nice overview of
everything that your work will

458
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,240
entail.
So let's go into some specifics

459
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,320
for now.
Let's start off with some of the

460
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,920
studies you've done on the
prefrontal cortex.

461
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,560
They focus on top down control
signals rather than raw content

462
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,080
storage.
What does this reveal about the

463
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,280
interplay between attention,
intention and the subjective

464
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:55,960
flow of that's a conscious
experience?

465
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,080
Well, again, the, the top down
control is all about taking your

466
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,640
own knowledge, beliefs about
goals in the world, plans to

467
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,080
achieve them, and then using
that to, to, for the cortex, the

468
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:11,000
brain to self organize itself.
And as we just discuss, you're

469
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,000
bringing your love, your own
beliefs and prior knowledge to

470
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,040
the table.
So a lot of what we perceive in

471
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,960
the outside world is going to be
influenced by our own beliefs.

472
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,200
But our own beliefs are another
way of saying, here's a, here's

473
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,880
a goal relevant structure of the
world.

474
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,080
And I've internalized and I, I
want to, I want to take

475
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,880
advantage of it.
And you need that top down.

476
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,560
Sometimes it's we, we forget
this sounds self-evident that we

477
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,400
need top down control in the
brain because we say, oh, the

478
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,800
brain's got to control itself.
Well, why does the brain have to

479
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,160
control itself?
Why you need this stuff?

480
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,200
Well, you need brain control
stuff so they can go after long

481
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:46,880
term goals.
Otherwise you just be responding

482
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:48,480
to everything in the immediate
environment.

483
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,120
You'd be like one of these C
elegans or something.

484
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,200
You know, you need in order to
go after long term goals, he the

485
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,480
brain needs to seize control.
But the question is, why does

486
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,080
this control need to come from a
top down area like like the

487
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,880
prefrontal cortex?
And the simple answer to that,

488
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,120
and it also includes into
because of some insight into

489
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:09,000
consciousness, is that the brain
needs to model itself to control

490
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,600
itself.
OK.

491
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,200
And that's what the prefrontal
cortex is doing.

492
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,480
It's modeling what's going on in
the rest of the cortex.

493
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,040
So it can deserve control over
the rush of the cortex.

494
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,080
Now what do I mean by modeling?
Simple example is old fashioned

495
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,160
thermostats don't have a model
built in right?

496
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,080
And so you set a high
temperature, you set a low

497
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,920
temperature when your house gets
too cold and then the the

498
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,080
furnace turns on and when it
gets too hot, the air

499
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,640
conditioner turns out So your
your your, your temperature in

500
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,760
your house is constantly
bouncing back and forth between

501
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,600
these two temperatures you've
set right.

502
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,880
The way modern smart thermostats
work is they get information

503
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,640
about how heat dissipates in
your house over different times

504
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,040
a day, different times of the
year, maybe of the sun shining

505
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:52,560
in your house during one part of
the day.

506
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,960
So makes a model of how heat
dissipates in your house.

507
00:24:56,360 --> 00:24:59,720
And now you're after you gather
information, your smart

508
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,560
thermostat can anticipate when
to turn on the thermostat or

509
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,880
when to turn on the air
conditioner in anticipation of

510
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,400
having to do so.
And now instead of bouncing back

511
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,600
between extremes, now you get a
more steady state temperature.

512
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,360
So what the, what the, what,
what that means is that in order

513
00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:18,760
to, it's makes the firm that's
more energy efficient, which is

514
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,680
why you why you want them.
But what that, that's an example

515
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,280
of an old engineering truism is
that if you want to control the

516
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,280
system, you need to build a
model of the system.

517
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,960
And that's what the prefrontal
cortex does.

518
00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:33,640
And that's what I think is a key
component of consciousness.

519
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,800
It's not just the unification or
the organization, It's a model

520
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,960
doing the organ organization.
And that's consistent with

521
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,240
so-called high order.
So high order theories of

522
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,720
consciousness, so global
workspace theories, just like

523
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,920
IIT information integrated
information theory, they all

524
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,520
posit you see this big enough
ensemble to unify the cortex and

525
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,400
organize the organize the
cortex.

526
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,960
But what high high order theory
say the same thing, but they add

527
00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:03,320
on to it is that you need this
connection to the front, this

528
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,440
giant, you know, network
functional network that unifies

529
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,280
the cortex needs to also connect
the front of the brain to the

530
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,440
back of the brain, the
prefrontal cortex to sensory

531
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,000
cortex.
And the reason is that I think

532
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:16,840
it's because you need that
model.

533
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,960
The model is an important part
of the control system.

534
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,080
Without that model, you don't
have conscious people like Mike

535
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,760
Raziano talk about this.
Mike Raziano is professor of

536
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,400
Princeton and he talks about how
the the what consciousness is is

537
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,280
that you have the act of
voluntarily focusing your

538
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,520
attention, whether on me or have
a clock on the wall or whatever.

539
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,680
You're focusing your attention
in order for the brain to have

540
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,800
volitional control over
attention and needs a model that

541
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,240
we're so it can't knows it can
volitionally focus its

542
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,400
attention.
And so I think that I think that

543
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,320
that's, that's the kind of the
key components that link

544
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,360
everything to the prefrontal
cortex and everything I've been

545
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:57,560
talking about is that you need
a, you need a unified organized

546
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,520
cortex in order to get that.
You need that model that's in,

547
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,240
that's producing an
organization.

548
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,160
That's what we think the
prefrontal cortex does.

549
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,800
It absorbs information about and
stores information about goals

550
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,320
and means and plans, then can
call that up when needed in the

551
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,520
right context, and then produce
that organization.

552
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,640
And do you think that this that
the function of the prefrontal

553
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,840
cortex, I mean in terms of being
this rhythmic modulator in a

554
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,040
sense and sort of organizing
things, you think one of its

555
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:30,400
very important components would
be constraints and sort of

556
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,920
ensuring that we've got enough
of those to to go back to what

557
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,360
you mentioned earlier, those
surprises or trying not to do

558
00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:40,240
something and just having those
inhibitory functions?

559
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,880
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, we, so when I start

560
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,360
about 25 years ago now, I wrote
this paper with Jonathan Cohen,

561
00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:50,840
who called integrative theory of
prefrontal cortex function.

562
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,200
And that's where we sort of in
retrospect kind of shifted the

563
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,560
field from one wave of thing
about the prefrontal cortex to

564
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,080
another way.
And the way before, the way

565
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,640
people thought about it before
was prefrontal cortex was kind

566
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,640
of just an extension to sensory
cortex.

567
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,640
It was like the working memory
for sensory cortex.

568
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,040
Oh, you have all this vision and
audition and somatic sensation.

569
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,200
Well, the prefrontal cortex just
holds that stuff online, keeps

570
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,840
it in mind and working memory.
And then somehow a miracle

571
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,000
happens and you have cognition.
I always thought that was

572
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,040
unsatisfying because it didn't
seem like what what cognition

573
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,000
was all about.
And with Jonathan Encounter and

574
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,840
I proposes what the prefrontal
cortex does, it isn't just an

575
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,000
extension of sensory cortex.
It's a special kind of cortex

576
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,480
and that actually some of them
disregard sensory information at

577
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,440
the expense of pulling out this
goal relevant structure,

578
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,480
statistical structure of the
outside world and uses that

579
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,880
information about goals and
means to direct the rest of

580
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,840
cortex in this in this modeling
kind of way that then adds the

581
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,720
then controls the rest of cortex
like we just been discussing.

582
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,880
And the way when we first wrote
this paper, we thought about it

583
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,440
back then in terms of the
connectionist model.

584
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,200
That was the model that we were
operating under and we thought

585
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,600
about in terms of the prefrontal
cortex building this model

586
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,560
building this in algebra used
like a road map, the prefrontal

587
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:13,720
cortex.
We used a metaphor of a soda

588
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,760
runs a train yard, a yard a yard
manager in in a, in a system of

589
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,800
railroad tracks.
They have a map of where the

590
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,680
trains need to go.
And then they're they're moving

591
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,000
around the tracks to get the
trains to where they need to go.

592
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,880
So the idea was the free frontal
cortex is the part of the brain

593
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,720
that builds this model, builds
this map of where the trains

594
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,840
need to go.
Then it uses that map to tell

595
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,720
the rest of the cortex to direct
the trains.

596
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:36,720
OK, that was what we thought of
it.

597
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,800
We thought of it in terms of
purely A connectionist kind of

598
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,920
single, you know, neuron kind of
approach where the prefrontal

599
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,520
cortex is building this map,
then sending spikes through

600
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,600
connections back to sensory
cortex and saying to the rest of

601
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,680
the cortex, here's where the
trains need to go.

602
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,720
But now we've come to realize
this new model of where we're

603
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,000
talking about the oscillations.
I consider an update to that

604
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:02,160
model and we think the control
is not coming from the neurons

605
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,160
spiking from neurons telling the
rest of cortex what to do what

606
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,200
it's, it's, it's doing with
these waves, with these wave

607
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,280
patterns, and particularly it's
doing with a particular type of

608
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,480
wave pattern, alpha, beta wave
patterns, mid frequency wave

609
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,840
patterns from about 10 Hertz to
about 30 Hertz.

610
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,400
The sensory content of the brain
seems to be carried by high

611
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,320
frequency oscillations, gamma
oscillations, 30 Hertz and

612
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,280
above.
Why high frequencies?

613
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,960
Because the sense you ruled is
high fidelity in very detail,

614
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,920
right?
But the control comes from these

615
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,600
lower frequency.
So if gamma sensory cortex

616
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,040
sensory information is 30 Hertz
and above, it's the band below

617
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,160
that 10 to 30 Hertz that we
think is the critical control

618
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,280
wave frequencies.
And what those frequencies do we

619
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,720
think they're they're what do
you think about waves in the

620
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,600
brain?
The, the there's a direct

621
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,840
mapping team frequencies and
scale of influence, right?

622
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,040
So sense information is carried
by gamma because you need such

623
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,440
information to be very high
fidelity and detailed.

624
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,720
And gamma oscillations are very
high frequencies.

625
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,240
So they have that kind of
granularity.

626
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,920
Whereas alpha beta oscillations
between this 10 to 30 years

627
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,880
range, they're the right scale
to produce the kind of control,

628
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,920
this mesoscale control you need
on the 100 order of hundreds of

629
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,560
millions of neurons to, to
direct the brain to, to, to

630
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,760
enact this model of the brain in
order the control signals that

631
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,840
that act, that act from this
model of the brain, right, that

632
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,160
the prefrontal cortex has.
And now we think about it, these

633
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,760
alpha beta waves are not
directly telling the rest of

634
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,240
cortex what to do.
It's telling the rest cortex

635
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,600
what it can't do.
They're inhibitory in nature.

636
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,080
So the way we've been now do
you've been using I was like

637
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:46,880
talking a lot of analogies and
metaphors.

638
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,040
The analogy we've been using is
is them the outside sentry water

639
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,560
is like a like a spray paint
spraying into your brain.

640
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,440
And these alpha beta control
signals are like a stencil that

641
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,840
the spray paint is paying is
spraying through.

642
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,320
So basically the prefrontal
cortex in these inhibitory alpha

643
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,920
beta waves to rest of cortex and
says here's the here's, here's

644
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,440
the circuits that can be
activated by the outside world.

645
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,360
Then the outside world comes and
fills in the details.

646
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,080
And to me that makes in
retrospect everything makes

647
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,720
sense in retrospect.
But it makes, in retrospect, it

648
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,920
makes sense to me, because you
don't want a control system that

649
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,160
tells the brain do exactly that.
You want a control system to

650
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,760
sort of set the parameters and
let the outside world sort of

651
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,760
fill in details.
Because the outside world's a

652
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,840
changing place and you want to
have some way of the two to

653
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,920
interact with one other.
You want just tell the brain

654
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,400
what to do.
That would be delusional.

655
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,080
So when it comes to studying
this, and for anyone who's not

656
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,400
familiar with this type of work,
I know we've had a stage in, in

657
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,400
life where we had this, the
connectome, as you mentioned,

658
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,760
when we had functional Mris and
brain scans, we, we decided, OK,

659
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,720
we can look for neural car rates
of consciousness.

660
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:02,840
I mean, now you're talking about
something different.

661
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,080
Now you're talking about waves,
oscillations and these neural

662
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,080
ensembles that occur.
How do we time these?

663
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,120
How do we sort of monitor this
information exchange?

664
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,440
How is it measured in the lab?
For example in the lab, how are

665
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:20,000
you guys using this to prove
provide empirical evidence for

666
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,240
its functionality?
Sure.

667
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,160
Well, it's measured in the in
the in the lab much the way

668
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,240
that's measured like many ways,
like cemented clinically through

669
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,640
EE GI mean what what we're
measuring is on these waves are

670
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,840
are something called local field
potentials.

671
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,920
And with local field potentials
are just measures of the brain's

672
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,560
electric fields.
That's what EE just when you

673
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,320
slaps electrodes on your scalp
in your core EEG signals of

674
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,520
squiggy lines that tell you
whether you're alive or brain

675
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,800
dead, you know, or whether
you're a sleeper or awake.

676
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,760
Those squeaky lines are measured
into the brain's electric fields

677
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,280
and measure from outside the
skull.

678
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,480
We measure local field
potentials, which we can measure

679
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:02,320
in a very higher fidelity way
coming from from inside the

680
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:03,960
skull.
We can measure them both from

681
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,840
inside the skull.
We can measure with high

682
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,600
density, kind of EGM, e.g. type
type single from outside the

683
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,120
skull.
But that's where measuring.

684
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,760
So it's, it's like measuring the
spike in activity single

685
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:14,960
neurons.
It just had a different,

686
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:16,440
different, more integrative
level.

687
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,719
And it seems that some
information comes out of this.

688
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,920
So what I was trying to get at
is something like, let's talk

689
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,239
about memory, for example.
Your work has shown that memory

690
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,560
is rather these bursts of
activity rather than a static

691
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,760
buffer.
So why is it more important?

692
00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:37,520
Why is it more accurate, let's
say, to view this as a

693
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,480
volitional dynamic process
rather than a passive storage

694
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,600
system?
Things like working memory

695
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:50,000
you're talking about, yeah,
cognition is well, I mean, we,

696
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,840
we can argue about whether the
definition of free will, whether

697
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,600
you true have any, any true free
free will or not.

698
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,720
And some people would say, no,
you don't because everything you

699
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,360
do is based on prior context,
prior experience and prior

700
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,520
knowledge.
But you know, leaving aside the

701
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,960
exact ethnicity of free will,
you do have a lot of like leeway

702
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:09,640
and how you're going to go about
your day.

703
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,160
You make decisions that from
from your internal motivations

704
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,160
and in that sense you do have
some free will.

705
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,120
And it's clear that it's clear
that gold directed behavior is

706
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,160
by definition volitional because
you are choosing you're not just

707
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,320
non gold directed behavior of B
does.

708
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,320
Oh, there's something there in
the I'm just going to go grab

709
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,040
that piece of food or that, you
know, piece of cake or, you

710
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,040
know, that beer right in front
of me because it's right there

711
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,640
and I like it.
You know, that's not gold

712
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,560
directed behavior.
When we talk about gold directed

713
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,640
behavior, we're talk about going
after things that are in the

714
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,200
outside roof, desired future
states, not immediate states.

715
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:46,040
And by definition that does
require volition because you're

716
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,680
being motivated by something.
It's not being driven by the

717
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:53,200
outside outside world.
So that's that's my definition

718
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,600
of free will, if you will.
And and within this framework

719
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,360
with with the prefrontal cortex
fit perfectly as the self

720
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:06,560
generator.
Again, it depends on what you

721
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,400
mean by self, but I'm going to
go with a, a qualified yes, I

722
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,520
mean that that's where without a
prefrontal what what you can

723
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,520
think about go back to like the
classic literature.

724
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,480
When you or you study patients
who have damage, they have a

725
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,280
stroke or something, they're
prefrontal cortex.

726
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,920
And what happens to them is, is
that when you have severe damage

727
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,160
to your prefrontal cortex, like
a lot of it's blown away.

728
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,760
You basically just sit in the
chair and do nothing and you

729
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,120
have no self motivation at all.
More limited damage to the

730
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,880
prefrontal cortex results of the
person who's unfiltered.

731
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,920
And we all know people are
unfiltered.

732
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,560
We could watch the news and see
some of that, you know, like

733
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,000
people who are like things just
pop out of their heads and like

734
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,880
without any sense of like the
consequences of what they're

735
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,480
saying or doing.
That's what the prefrontal

736
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,200
cortex says.
It provides that kind of filter

737
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,880
that says, oh, maybe I shouldn't
say or do that because that

738
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,480
would be real stupid or, or
counterproductive.

739
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,960
That that's the prefrontal
cortex in the sense is that

740
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,240
filter that sort of keeps your
thoughts and action in line

741
00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:05,200
with, with things that are
productive, not things that are

742
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,840
just immediately satisfying.
So in that sense, it's it's the

743
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,280
generation of self in terms of
self motivation and self

744
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:13,560
direction.
Yeah.

745
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,720
It it when it comes to storage
of information, because I mean,

746
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,360
if if we look back, let's say 10
years ago, we, we, we were

747
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,520
finding or trying to find places
of storage, let's say memories

748
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,560
within certain DNA or or certain
cells, etcetera.

749
00:37:27,720 --> 00:37:30,720
How important is it to
distribute this effectively?

750
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,600
And why is this something that
should be considered when it

751
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,320
comes to storing memories, for
example, versus storing

752
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,000
activities or interpreting
activities in bursts of

753
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,360
activity?
How important is this interplay

754
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,760
of leaving information out or
not storing too much because

755
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,240
obviously you can overload the
system versus storing some

756
00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:53,480
within the activity because then
it makes it easier to sort of

757
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,880
bring back or I'm not sure if
I'm framing this question

758
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,400
correctly.
Well, I would say Marc Smith

759
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,360
says is that things in the brain
tend to be very distributed,

760
00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:09,880
including information storage.
I mean, we've, we used again

761
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,040
back in the 20th century model.
In fact, even pre 20th century,

762
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,960
we used to think of the brain as
a collection of separate organs

763
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:17,600
or separate functions, separate
modules.

764
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,240
There's the Broadman areas,
which are a way of looking at

765
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:23,800
the gross anatomy of the brain,
of the cortex especially and

766
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,000
saying, well, based on
differences in anatomy, there

767
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,040
seems to be 52 Broadman areas.
And the idea for a long time is

768
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,080
must be 52 separate functions,
also 52 areas you're doing.

769
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:36,560
But if you look at what we've
learned over the past,

770
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:41,560
especially 1020 years, what you
can see is that that's just one,

771
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,160
one representational scheme in
the brain.

772
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,080
There there's a half a dozen
more based on dynamics and

773
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,920
neural activity that that also
describe how the brain organizes

774
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,320
itself.
And anatomy is only anatomy is

775
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,080
only the starting point, not,
not, not the end point.

776
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,320
And that's a major, major change
from the way we used to think

777
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:01,880
about the brain.
We used to think about the brain

778
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,160
as very modular.
And now it's pretty obvious the

779
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,480
brain is not very modular at
all.

780
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:12,080
It's it's a complex interactive
network of systems that are cut

781
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,960
that distribute information.
I'm not saying the cortex is

782
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,960
like uniform, like like a, like
it's a hologram or something

783
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,200
like that where every part of it
has the whole, there's, there

784
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,600
are differences, but they're
more like gradients and, and,

785
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,720
and, and gradual changes in
networks and integration that

786
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,640
that's more the flavour of
where, where things now are in

787
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,880
neuroscience.
So can neuroscience, through

788
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,640
insights like oscillatory
dynamics and subspace coding

789
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,760
etcetera account for why
specific brain patterns give

790
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,440
rise to qualitative fields from
within?

791
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:49,360
Or does the hard problem of
qualia or consciousness lie

792
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,600
beyond current empirical
research?

793
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,200
OK, I'll answer that.
But first of all, I'll, I'll

794
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,280
give another answer as a
politician might.

795
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,040
You know, one of the reasons
I'm, I'm interested in the brain

796
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:03,840
for two reasons.
One is I think it's a really

797
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,360
cool thing to study, but
importantly, it's important for

798
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,960
understanding, for public health
to cure brain diseases.

799
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,520
And two examples of this from
coming from our work is that we

800
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,600
have a model of what produces
sensory overload, an autist.

801
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,600
We think that these inhibitory
alpha beta signals, for example,

802
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,840
they're keeping the filter on
things, they get weakened in,

803
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,440
in, in the autistic brain.
And as a result, the, the

804
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,320
filters no longer are either
weak or they're dysfunctional.

805
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,280
And now everything floods into
the brain and gets sensitive

806
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,720
overload.
And there might be wait now that

807
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:37,680
we and we're developing closed
loop systems where we could

808
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:42,480
begin to reinforce those, those
frequencies in in the brain and

809
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,880
maybe counteract this sensitive
overload, which may produce a

810
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,960
lot of this the, the
symptomology of, of autism,

811
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,760
like, you know, like, like
retreating from social situation

812
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:55,240
because you're overwhelmed all
the time.

813
00:40:55,240 --> 00:40:57,200
You can't learn effectively
because you're constantly being

814
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,120
buffered by the outside world.
So that's one thing.

815
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,920
Another thing is my work with
Emery Brown, who's a fellow

816
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,720
colleague here at MIT.
He's an MIT professor like me,

817
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,080
but he's also a practicing
anesthesiologist at

818
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,520
Massachusetts General Hospital,
and we're studying what happens

819
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,480
in the in the brain when you go
under general anesthesia, when

820
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,840
you get knocked unconscious.
And this may be disturbing to

821
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,920
know because anesthesia has been
around for like 150 years.

822
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,640
The doctors really don't know
why it makes you unconscious.

823
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,680
They just know their works,
which look a lot of things in

824
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,240
medicine actually.
Well, it turns out it used to be

825
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:32,840
this tacit assumption somehow
anesthesia shuts off your

826
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,200
cortex.
It doesn't do that at all.

827
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,400
What it does is it shifts your
brain waves into a different

828
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,520
profile.
It's just them to lower

829
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,720
frequencies and it misaligns the
brain waves, which which

830
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:48,280
destabilizes your cortex.
And what's very exciting for us

831
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,760
about this is that we're finding
these exact same effects under

832
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,800
three different anesthetics.
And why is that important?

833
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,040
Because we want to build a
system where we could

834
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,440
automatically control by reading
from the brain.

835
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,000
We can automatically control
your depth of anesthesia in the

836
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:06,680
operating room.
OK.

837
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,720
Now these three different
aspects I mentioned they, they

838
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:13,080
operate on three different
luckier receptors in the brain,

839
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,360
in different parts of the brain.
So it's perfectly possible that

840
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,880
all three of these, these,
these, these drugs could have

841
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,280
made you unconscious 3 different
ways that would be of little use

842
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,000
in, in, in, in the, in the
clinic in the LR because you

843
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:26,800
would need three different
machines for each drug.

844
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,720
In an actual clinical practice,
they use combinations of drugs

845
00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:31,880
and now you're forget about it,
it's never going to work.

846
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:36,360
But we're finding that all three
of these drugs all do the exact

847
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,320
same things in the brain waves
in your cortex.

848
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,480
It's a universal signature of
unconsciousness, right?

849
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,600
And by the way, that's a pretty
strong argument right there.

850
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,360
These brain waves are
functional.

851
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,960
Because if you ask my more
reductionistic colleagues, how

852
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,840
do these more like molecular
biology types, how do these

853
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,680
three drugs make you
unconscious?

854
00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:00,520
They say 03 different pathways,
but we can now explain why they

855
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,760
all do the same thing on this
brain wave level.

856
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:04,960
And that didn't tell you brain
waves are we can explain

857
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,200
something that that you can't
explain in a reductionistic way

858
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,240
using brain waves that didn't
tell you that brain waves are

859
00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:11,040
functional.
Then you know, I don't know

860
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,320
what, what does.
So that that that's that's

861
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,520
exciting because we want to
build the system that will give

862
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,600
you better control over
anesthesia.

863
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:20,720
Why is that important for public
health?

864
00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:25,160
When you get to be about my age,
about 60 and and above, last

865
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,640
thing you want to do is go to
general anesthesia in elderly

866
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,680
people and young people too, but
also especially in elderly

867
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,640
people, general anesthesia gives
you short term cognitive decline

868
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,520
and that turn turns into greatly
increased risk for long term

869
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:40,880
cognitive decline in
Alzheimer's.

870
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:42,480
Here's some families all the
time.

871
00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:45,520
Oh, mom, our grandfather was
doing fine until he had that

872
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,560
surgery and he never bounced,
but he recovered physically, but

873
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,160
never bounced back from that
mentally.

874
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,720
And one of the reasons why Emery
thinks that this is true.

875
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,680
Henry Brown, my colleague, it's
true because in clinical

876
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,880
practice, what they do in the OR
in order to measure whether

877
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:02,440
you're unconscious or not is
they measure your heart rate,

878
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,200
your breathing and your blood
pressure, and they would just

879
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,320
see if you're reacting to pain.
If you're responsive.

880
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,120
Well, I mean, they're not
measuring the very thing that's

881
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,080
going unconscious.
So that's going to be a very

882
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,440
inaccurate measure on
consciousness as a result.

883
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:19,760
Everything's that anesthesiality
practice over uses too much

884
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,320
drugs, they over anesthetize
you.

885
00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:25,080
So we can come up with a system
that can do this automatically

886
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,880
and give you just the amount of
anesthesia you need and no more.

887
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,280
We can reduce exposure to
anesthesia and greatly reduce

888
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,480
this risk.
And that would be a major public

889
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,120
health thing because because our
population is aging and older

890
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:43,280
people go over, go under
anesthesia, just have more

891
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,800
surgeries disproportionately
well to the young people.

892
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,360
So that would be a huge public
health benefit.

893
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:49,640
And this is a conjecture, by the
way.

894
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,840
We have a prototype system that
we could actually bring to the

895
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:54,760
operating room anytime.
Now.

896
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:56,520
I just need to get the
infrastructure.

897
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:58,200
Yeah.
Because my next question was

898
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:02,120
going to be about exactly that,
because I mean, what's the goal

899
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,280
now?
Are you guys sort of Eegs on all

900
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,240
these patients?
Is that the next step to how are

901
00:45:06,240 --> 00:45:08,280
we going to figure out exactly
what these patterns are?

902
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,320
Which ones are important?
Which ones we should avoid?

903
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,080
Well, for this one, for an
anaesthesia, it's a it's a it's

904
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:18,680
a neural signature of the shift
to low wave lower frequencies

905
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,360
and this misalignment of brain
waves that happens, you know,

906
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,680
across up different individuals.
So that that's a literally

907
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,120
universal signature risk cause
different drugs and different

908
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:29,600
individuals.
You need to get a baseline with

909
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,040
the where the person is now and
to see how that changes.

910
00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:35,120
But the system can all
accommodate for that can all

911
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,840
take take that into account.
So those are signatures you

912
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:40,800
need.
But now I'll finally circle back

913
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,320
to the original question you
asked about quality of

914
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,120
individual experience and hard
problem of consciousness.

915
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,320
I hate to disagree with Dave
Chalmers and maybe I love to

916
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,000
disagree with David Chalmers.
I can't tell.

917
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,960
But I don't think the hard
problem of consciousness is a

918
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,080
real problem.
I think the problem of

919
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,680
consciousness is what are the
prerequisites?

920
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,240
What are the brain mechanisms
that produce conscious thought

921
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,120
that's so-called easy problem of
conscious?

922
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,440
What makes what makes thoughts
some thoughts conscious and

923
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,160
other thoughts not conscious.
But to me, that's the whole

924
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,960
problem of consciousness,
so-called hard problem of

925
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,560
consciousness is a do you
experience the color red the

926
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,480
same way I experience color red?
Do you does your brain have the

927
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,760
same experience as I do when
it's conscious?

928
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,560
You know, that's the stuff for
poets and songwriters.

929
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,520
OK.
You know, like individual

930
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,560
experience is not something you
can really study scientifically

931
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,880
because science requires A
replication and individual

932
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,280
experience is not really going
to those are all this individual

933
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:41,760
case studies.
You're not going to pull the

934
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,640
science from that.
And that's, but that's something

935
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,720
I'm just like, you know, punting
the football saying, oh, we

936
00:46:47,720 --> 00:46:49,080
can't study, so it's not
important.

937
00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:51,440
But that's not it.
I don't think it matters.

938
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:53,520
Actually.
Let me give you an example.

939
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:59,680
So Eve Marder Brandeis studied
this, this motion called pyloric

940
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,520
motion in the gut of a lobster.
And what pyloric motion is it

941
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,920
just basically squeezing food
through the through the

942
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,760
intestine of the of the lobster.
That's all it does.

943
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,880
It's just like squeezing, like
your intestinal just muscles are

944
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:14,880
just squeezed and sequences move
food along the intestine that.

945
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,120
So that happens in the lobster,
of course, like a lot of

946
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:18,760
animals.
But what Eve showed is that

947
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,560
there's three ganglion in the
lobster nervous system that are

948
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:26,600
responsible for this.
And these three ganglion can be

949
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:31,600
tuned 100,000 different ways to
produce the same motion, pyloric

950
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:33,240
motion, just the exact same
function.

951
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:35,800
So how the individual lobsters
do it.

952
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,440
And you have 100,000 individual
lobsters doing 100,000 different

953
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,760
ways in principle, but they're
all producing the same function.

954
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,200
So it doesn't really matter so
much the details of how each,

955
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,080
each one is tuned up.
What matters is, is the

956
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,480
principles and the, and the
functions they're producing.

957
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:53,560
And it's the same way for the
human brain too.

958
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,600
So your cortex when you're born,
you're born with way more

959
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,000
connections in your cortex and
then that's going to happen.

960
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,720
And what happens is that during
early development, you know,

961
00:48:01,720 --> 00:48:04,080
you, you whittle away those
connections, you're left behind

962
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,640
what you so you know, that's why
in in for newborn infants, the

963
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,320
world's just buzzing crazy place
because they have way more

964
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,400
connections in their brain and
all of us just flooding in

965
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,040
there.
And then eventually through

966
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,840
experience, your brain gets rid
of the excess connections and

967
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,880
leaves behind the connections
that correspond to the

968
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,560
statistics of the outside world,
things like edges and lines and

969
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,640
corners and certainly these kind
of things that that you

970
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,560
experience, right.
So you're born with a random

971
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,480
seed to connect with.
All of our cortex are born with

972
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,320
a random seed of excess
connections.

973
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:34,640
So Even so that's individual
right there.

974
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,920
And then your individual
experiences will put in these

975
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,280
statistical, you know,
regularities in your cortex,

976
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,920
take away the connections and
leave behind the connections all

977
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,280
in a very individual way.
So all of our cortices are wired

978
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,120
in the details are wired up a
little bit different.

979
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,480
So if we're all going to
experience reality somewhat

980
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:59,400
differently in the, in the
details, what really matters is

981
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,440
the principles by which the
brain produces the, the, the

982
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,680
phenomenology, right?
So it doesn't really matter that

983
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:10,040
you and I don't whether we
experience red the exact same

984
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:12,440
way or not.
What matters is we we both agree

985
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,000
it's red.
And so it's going to be the

986
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,960
principles that that the
computational principles that

987
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,240
that create conscious thought
that there's going to be really

988
00:49:19,240 --> 00:49:22,040
important and how individual
brains are wired up.

989
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,200
That's, that's kind of something
that's not really it's, it's,

990
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,480
it's almost irrelevant details.
I'm not going to say irrelevant

991
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,520
because of the brains.
I'm just saying that it's not

992
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:33,840
really important for studying
consciousness.

993
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,640
It's something something we can,
you know, again, write songs and

994
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,240
poetry about.
Yeah, look, you're touching on

995
00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:42,360
something very important.
This this imitation game when it

996
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,320
comes to, I mean, for me to
assume I could ever experience

997
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,840
your consciousness for what it
is, the way it is pretty much

998
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,960
impossible task at hand.
But now we've got artificial

999
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,920
intelligence on the rise, and
you can control via mixed

1000
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:59,360
selectivity and oscillations.
What would an AI system require

1001
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:03,440
beyond raw computation to
achieve authentic understanding,

1002
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,880
agency, or even rudimentary
consciousness?

1003
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:08,320
Well, see that that's another
thing.

1004
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,760
So you know.
And we, you touched upon this

1005
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:12,720
early on when we talked about
whether the universe is

1006
00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:16,240
conscious or whether the brain
brain is conscious is that, you

1007
00:50:16,240 --> 00:50:20,840
know, defining consciousness is,
is the, is a real problem, is a

1008
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,120
real challenge here because
depending on how you define it,

1009
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,520
you can come up with any answer
you want, right.

1010
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:32,480
So I want for the sake of
studying consciousness, I

1011
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,320
suggest that we adopt an
operational definition of

1012
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,800
consciousness, maybe not the
full definition, but something

1013
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,440
we can deal with until we figure
more more of it out.

1014
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,200
And my suggestion is that we
adopt the operational

1015
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,480
definitions of consciousness
that is human like

1016
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,240
consciousness.
OK.

1017
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:54,840
So if a if AI is conscious, if
it could be conscious, maybe,

1018
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,240
but it's going to be a
consciousness that we would not

1019
00:50:57,240 --> 00:51:00,400
recognize.
AI just responds to inputs.

1020
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,440
All does respond inputs.
He said the invitation game, the

1021
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,240
Turing test, you know, the
Turing test where you try to

1022
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,440
convince it you're talking to an
AI doesn't seem like a real

1023
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,000
human.
It's passed the Turing test.

1024
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,600
First of all, the Turing test,
it was great in its time, but it

1025
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,000
just goes shows how easy easy it
is to fool people because

1026
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:16,800
people, I mean, people think
their cars are alive.

1027
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:18,840
You know what I mean?
So like it's not too hard to

1028
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,600
make people think something is
is is has agency.

1029
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:27,080
But the point is, is that, you
know, is that AI only responds

1030
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,080
to input.
So my one facetious connection

1031
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:37,400
that I joke I make about the
about Turing test is the new

1032
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,440
AIAI Turing test should be just
don't say anything at all and

1033
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:43,920
see if what the AI does cause
again, AI is only respond to

1034
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,320
input.
And my point is, is that our

1035
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,520
brains as immaturely have this
constant narrative going on.

1036
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:50,680
We're filtering the outside
world through this constant,

1037
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,640
constant narrative of where we
are now and what we're doing.

1038
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,880
AI doesn't have that internal
narrative, it just responds

1039
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,920
inputs.
So if my conscious was somehow

1040
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:04,440
transferred into AII, would even
if you would call AI conscious,

1041
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,080
but I would not recognize in
anything like conscious my

1042
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,400
conscious at all.
Another example is the octopus.

1043
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,600
Octopus has this one of the
probably the most foreign

1044
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:17,040
nervous system we we know and
most alien nervous system on

1045
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,520
Earth is that it doesn't have
much of A central nervous

1046
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:20,920
system.
It's size of like 8 nervous

1047
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:22,360
system and eight arms of its
body.

1048
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,000
So could do all these dexterous
things like open jars and stuff

1049
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,080
like that.
And people say, oh, like it, it

1050
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:29,240
it's that seems like
consciousness.

1051
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,480
Well, maybe so, but if I could
transfer my consciousness into

1052
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:36,920
the brain of an octopus, I I
would not recognize as anything

1053
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:38,600
like the conscious experience I
have.

1054
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:43,080
So maybe conscious, but I think
until we understand, excuse me,

1055
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,320
more about consciousness, we
should adopt A more human like

1056
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,520
conscience definition just until
we understand them or otherwise.

1057
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,200
As you pointed out,
consciousness could be anything

1058
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,400
from humans have it to the
universe as it.

1059
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,040
Yeah it it Consciousness is
always a a.

1060
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,800
Tricky subject.
When I think about your work, a

1061
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:03,320
few other people come to mind.
I think of someone like John Joe

1062
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:07,240
McFadden with Semi field Theory.
Do people like this do do you

1063
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:09,880
build upon their work, look at
it, try to ascertain where they

1064
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,720
go wrong, where they're right,
and sort of filter it into your

1065
00:53:12,720 --> 00:53:15,480
work?
I don't know if I go through an

1066
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,600
explicit.
Process of where they go wrong,

1067
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:20,520
where they go right.
You know, here's the thing, like

1068
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,840
is like, like, so I've run an
experimental lab.

1069
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,640
I'm doing experiments on this
stuff about 30 years now, and I

1070
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:29,640
didn't start out 30 years ago.
I was thinking like, oh, here's

1071
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:31,520
my view of the brain of
oscillations.

1072
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:35,080
And those like, basically I got
one set of results, interpret

1073
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:36,600
them as best I could.
That's a guess.

1074
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,080
And that's another set of
experiments, new set of results,

1075
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,840
interpret them.
I was sort of LED there step by

1076
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,400
step by the data itself, how I
interpreted the data.

1077
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:48,120
Then with the results you get
Taylor, that suggests the next

1078
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:50,760
experiment you should do.
So this is sort of gradually

1079
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:54,640
built up by by accumulating
evidence and results and not

1080
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:58,320
just mine, but also paying
attention to the other, other

1081
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,640
people do.
So this is, you know, it wasn't

1082
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:05,960
like I had this idea decades ago
and been spending decades trying

1083
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,560
to fill out.
This is a culmination of a of a

1084
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,320
long process, long step by step
process.

1085
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:12,800
We just got there in single
steps.

1086
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,960
You know when you look at, when
you look back, was.

1087
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,240
There a point when you thought
OK consciousness was this wet

1088
00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:20,520
where soft just all information
stored there.

1089
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,120
When do those steps start to
sort of change and fade for you

1090
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,400
into this new oscillatory
mindset?

1091
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:29,840
I'll give you one example.
So the work working memory is a.

1092
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:34,080
Good, good test bed for how
ideas change and that for some

1093
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,080
like 1520.
I studied working memory since I

1094
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:40,680
was a postdoc a long time ago
now, and we think a working

1095
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:44,200
memory is just purely sustained
activity in the brain.

1096
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,720
Neurons start spiking when
you're holding something in

1097
00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:48,240
mind.
Then when you're done, they turn

1098
00:54:48,240 --> 00:54:50,400
off almost like flicking on a
light switch, almost like

1099
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,440
working memory.
You turn on a light switch and

1100
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,760
turn back off again.
And then it's a funny story.

1101
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:59,080
So I was in.
I'm an editor of this journal

1102
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,040
called Journal Cognitive
Neuroscience, and it's about 15

1103
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,960
years ago, close, maybe a little
more.

1104
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:09,360
This person named Michael
Lundvist, he submitted a paper.

1105
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:13,920
He was a graduate student in
Sweden and he submit this paper,

1106
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,520
this, he built this biomimetic,
biologically realistic model of

1107
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:21,000
how working memories work with
real like neuron like stuff like

1108
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,520
the dynamics and effects you see
in the brain.

1109
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:26,800
And when he put it all together
and let it run, what he found

1110
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,000
was that it wasn't sustained
activity.

1111
00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:32,840
It was like this interplay this,
this, this, this, this back and

1112
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:35,520
forth between with bursting
activity between these high

1113
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:38,600
frequency gamma that's carrying
the content, then these low

1114
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:40,600
frequency alpha beta stuff is to
control.

1115
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,200
And it was like working memory
Was this dance between the two

1116
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:46,160
like almost like a round, round
yin Yang kind of kind of dance.

1117
00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:50,400
And this is all based on a on a
model, just a computational

1118
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:54,160
model.
So I I was an editor and I sent

1119
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:56,840
off review in the paper, got
accepted and I wrote Michael

1120
00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:00,480
acceptance letter as editors do.
And about a week later Michael

1121
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:04,440
writes me and says, dear
Rofessor Miller, I know you saw

1122
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,960
my AER because you were the
editor and clearly everything

1123
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:08,640
you've been thinking about
working memory is wrong.

1124
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:11,120
Can I come to your lab as a
postdoc and use your data to

1125
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:13,880
prove you wrong?
And I was termed by that.

1126
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:16,880
So I did.
And that's sort of what that

1127
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,080
that was a major break where we
realized, oh, this thing I've

1128
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:23,200
been thinking before about that.
It's much more of a complex

1129
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,480
dynamic than than previously
thought.

1130
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,680
And I want to give credit to my,
my PhD advisor, Charlie Gross,

1131
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,440
who's one of the, one of the
great neuroscientists of the

1132
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:34,120
20th century, one of the real
big visionary thinkers.

1133
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,840
And his whole thing, he was a,
in addition to being a a

1134
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,840
groundbreaking neuroscientist,
he was his hobby was the history

1135
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:45,040
of science and he taught us very
early on, and not just in this

1136
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:47,480
something kind of he imbued the
lab environment with it.

1137
00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:50,560
The idea is that everything
we're doing now is a, is a

1138
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:53,320
paradigm that will change.
It's a stepping stone to get to

1139
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:55,680
get to somewhere else.
You know, you think you know

1140
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,120
what's going on now. 100 years
ago, they thought they know what

1141
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,760
was what was going on too.
And so he sort of what I

1142
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:06,160
internalized from that is this
willingness, skepticism of, of

1143
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:07,320
dog.
But a lot of people like they

1144
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:09,360
buy into the paradigm and
they're like defended.

1145
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,560
I, I developed this reflex
through my through Charlie Gross

1146
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:17,560
that that paradigms are thing to
be suspicious of dogmas.

1147
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,240
I think to be suspicious of and
your own dogmas is the worst

1148
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,560
'cause that's what you're more
invested in that.

1149
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:24,800
So when someone like Michael
came along and said, Oh,

1150
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:28,040
everything you think is wrong,
it's something different.

1151
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:29,840
I said, sure, come.
Then we started to come in this

1152
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:30,880
day and realize, Oh yeah, that's
right.

1153
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:32,760
And like that boom.
If I see the evidence, I'm

1154
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:34,520
willing to give up even
something I talked about for,

1155
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:37,960
for, for, for 15 years.
And I think I would add to

1156
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:39,480
Charlie Gross.
Yeah.

1157
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:44,760
Look, I mean, you're a musician.
And you play the bass very much

1158
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:49,920
in tuned with with with the
oscillations of the sound of the

1159
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:53,160
universe, let's say.
Do you think that that musical

1160
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:56,360
background plays a role when it
comes to you formulating and

1161
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:58,640
understanding this idea and sort
of putting it together?

1162
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:03,000
Well, first of all, it comes to.
Music, I mean, it's no surprise

1163
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,800
that brains created in music
because brains run on music.

1164
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:09,680
That's what all these
oscillatory dynamics and waves

1165
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:11,400
are.
In fact, you see things, real

1166
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:12,840
harmonics happening in the
brain.

1167
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,800
So if you would stimulate the
brain at 40 Hertz, let's say,

1168
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:19,000
you would see the brain entrain
at 40 Hertz 40 times a second,

1169
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:22,880
but you also see another blip,
another entrainment at 80 Hertz.

1170
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,240
So why are you stimulating 40
Hertz and seeing an entrainment

1171
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,760
at 80 Hertz as well?
That's an octave.

1172
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,160
That's what an octave is, is a
doubling of frequencies.

1173
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,280
It's the next lowest energy
state after 40 Hertz when you're

1174
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,240
stimulating the brains and
that's lowest energy state the

1175
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:40,120
brain can fall into the next.
It's because of the way the,

1176
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:43,680
the, the waves.
So you have these two sine waves

1177
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:45,400
that they exactly match up.
They'll double.

1178
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,680
But now if I double one of them,
so they line up and there's also

1179
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:53,160
other waves in between them.
If they line up, they'll double,

1180
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:57,200
but now you doubled with
frequencies of 140 to 80 Hertz

1181
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,280
and the original peaks line up.
And then there's other ones in

1182
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,280
the middle that don't line up
still that that's the closest

1183
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,000
relationship where you're
actually reinforcing the

1184
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:10,480
original 40 Hertz, right?
And that's why octaves 2 notes

1185
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:14,480
sound the same because they're
they're the next, you know, most

1186
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:20,160
energy reinforcing dynamic the
the asteroid system fall into

1187
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,920
the next lowest energy after
that corresponds to 1/5 and

1188
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:27,680
that's one corresponds to 1/3.
Is it so literally these this

1189
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:32,720
music is fit wave physics and
your brain is wave physics.

1190
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:37,280
So it's no surprise to me that
brains created created music.

1191
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,800
So brains operate on music.
They it it they oscillate, they

1192
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,000
harmonize.
It's all all there.

1193
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:48,920
As for music training, helping
with science, I mean, I'm a big

1194
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:51,960
believer that music training is
a very good thing because it

1195
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,560
teaches you well.
It teaches you discipline and

1196
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,360
teaches you goal direction.
It teach, I mean, you can't

1197
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:01,360
progress in music unless you're
willing to practice every day

1198
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:04,800
and be very organized about it.
And it helps a great deal.

1199
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:07,240
And that's just good training
for life in general.

1200
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:09,400
Yeah, the reason why I'm asking
is you.

1201
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:11,480
You already mentioned the.
Fact that your work's becoming

1202
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,200
so practical when it comes to
the anaesthesia etcetera, but I

1203
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,040
was thinking about other ways we
can then use this sort of

1204
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:21,000
information to feed patients.
Music obviously being one of

1205
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:23,480
those approaches.
Have you found that anyone's

1206
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:28,760
using this data or this type of
framework to do creative studies

1207
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:30,200
lately?
Let's say someone using

1208
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:33,640
ultrasound, for example, to try
and just change certain

1209
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,360
oscillations or make things
different in certain ways that

1210
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:38,560
would help with the empirical
evidence of this theory.

1211
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:41,960
We're doing some of that.
We're we're, we're doing.

1212
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:45,240
We have a, a closed loop
electrical stimulation system

1213
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:48,400
that allows us to change around
the, the brain waves in a, in a

1214
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,240
principal way.
And so that's one way of

1215
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:53,680
providing evidence.
But I want to point out here is

1216
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:56,800
that what you're talking about
are causative studies or in

1217
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,040
order to understand the system,
I need to manipulate it and then

1218
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:03,080
see a response from the system.
You know, causive studies are a

1219
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:05,840
little bit oversold in in
science, especially in brain

1220
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:10,320
brain science, cause causation
is not simple in in the brain.

1221
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:13,680
Let me give you an example of
the way people normally think of

1222
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:19,080
causative studies is let's say I
stimulate brain area AI record

1223
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:21,800
what happens in brain area B and
I study behavior.

1224
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:26,480
So if I do something to brain
area A and I see a change in

1225
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:29,640
brain area BI see a change in
behavior, Most people assume,

1226
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:32,760
oh, A is influencing B&B is
influencing behavior, right?

1227
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:35,920
That's the tacit assumption.
That's what most most people

1228
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:38,440
interpret it.
But what if what's going on said

1229
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:43,200
is A is influencing area XX is
influencing B&B is influencing

1230
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:45,760
behavior.
Most people would say, Oh, well,

1231
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:49,200
that's still OK because it's
you're still producing showing

1232
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:52,480
causality, just indirect.
But now let's say what's going

1233
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:57,800
on is I'm changing brain area A,
that changes behavior and the

1234
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:01,240
change in behavior is then on
the back end changing area B.

1235
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,120
Right now there is no cause of
link between A&B.

1236
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:07,120
You just think there is because
behaviour is changing.

1237
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:09,480
So that's the problem with
causation.

1238
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:14,160
Any complex system there?
Causative studies are not as

1239
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,040
straightforward you think.
Therefore they're not really a

1240
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:18,920
gold standard.
What causative studies are just

1241
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:20,800
another way to do correlational
studies.

1242
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,640
In the end, all the knowledge
that we're acquiring about the

1243
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:26,280
brain or anything that is going
to is going to be correlational

1244
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:29,120
in the end.
And you say, do you need a ghost

1245
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:32,960
and killer causative study?
Well, no, because cause studies

1246
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:35,680
aren't that simple.
But also, I mean, like what

1247
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:38,160
we're doing is correlational
studies aren't perfect.

1248
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,240
That nothing's perfect.
But you know, you, you, you

1249
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:43,000
accumulate knowledge and you
triangulate in on some truths.

1250
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:44,400
And I think that that's what
happens.

1251
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:45,800
Yeah.
And I think it's always

1252
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,640
important to have that.
That sort of humility to

1253
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:52,880
remember that most if not all is
correlation.

1254
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:56,360
Everything is the most, the
closest correlation we could

1255
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:58,160
spotlight.
We we try and take that to the

1256
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:02,280
finest point possible, but it's
never really a direct point to

1257
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:04,280
point.
I'll give you another example

1258
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:05,880
which speaks to the paradigm
thing we were talking.

1259
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:10,040
About earlier is that people who
who still are labouring in the

1260
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:12,320
old framework of spiking.
Again, there's still a lot to

1261
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:14,280
learn under the framework of
spiking and connections.

1262
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:16,640
I'm not saying we've all these
scratched the surface of the

1263
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:17,920
brain.
So I'm not saying no one just

1264
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:21,520
still got to study that too, OK.
But people who are like, you

1265
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:24,680
know, using that paradigm and
maybe a little skeptical about

1266
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:27,440
brain waves and say to me, well,
if you had any causes, studies

1267
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:30,760
that show the brain waves change
function, like, yeah, we've done

1268
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:32,360
that.
Well, any Causeway of studies

1269
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:34,560
that brain waves change function
but the spikes don't

1270
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:38,960
independence of spikes.
Well, no, but do you have any

1271
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:41,880
studies that show that spikes
change function without changing

1272
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:44,520
brain waves?
And the answer to that is also

1273
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:47,800
no, because when when people are
doing studies like, oh, I'm

1274
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:50,080
going to stimulate here and
change the spiking and change

1275
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:51,960
behavior or whatever.
Oh, that's A cause of study.

1276
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:54,240
Well, the moment you inject
curve in the brain, you're also

1277
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,280
changing the brain waves.
So the gold standard that some

1278
01:03:57,280 --> 01:03:59,400
people are looking for, Oh, you
got to show me the brain for

1279
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,480
causative independence of should
have causes of effects

1280
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:06,120
independent of spiking.
Their own spiking model doesn't

1281
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:08,760
meet that standard.
And that's an example of like,

1282
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:11,560
you know, Thomas Kuhn paradigm.
I mean, if only.

1283
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:13,320
If only it was all a vacuum and
we could.

1284
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:15,280
Just isolate things and just
come up with the best thing.

1285
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:19,720
But that's what was so fun.
Yeah, all we do is is we just

1286
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:20,880
do.
Correlate studs and we and we

1287
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:23,440
just triangulate it on, on
truce, right.

1288
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:27,120
And as far as and I, I operate
under the following philosophy.

1289
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:29,880
If the brains doing it's
probably doing it for a reason.

1290
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:31,520
So I'm going to figure out what
that reason is.

1291
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:34,600
I'm not going to say, oh, those
oscillations or those brain

1292
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:36,240
waves ever.
They don't fit my model.

1293
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:37,600
Therefore, they're
epiphenomenal.

1294
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:40,920
We should banish the word
epiphenomenon from neuroscience.

1295
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:42,960
We know too little about how the
brain works.

1296
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:46,280
Be calling anything
epiphenomenal when someone says,

1297
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:49,640
oh, that's epiphenomenal.
What I hear is that doesn't fit

1298
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:52,680
my theory.
And if your theory can't explain

1299
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:55,320
the data, then your theory is
what's short, not the data.

1300
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:59,240
You know, I, I'm, you know, I'm
going to let the brain tell me

1301
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:01,680
how the brain's working.
I'm let the brain tell me how it

1302
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:03,480
works.
I'm not going to tell the brain

1303
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:05,800
how it works.
Earl, are there any

1304
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:10,200
epiphenomenal?
Aspects about the brain that you

1305
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:14,200
find particularly fascinating,
that you feel have some sort of

1306
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:19,280
an explanation that deserves a a
deep quick defence.

1307
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:23,080
Well, I just said we.
Should banish the word EPI

1308
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:26,360
phenomenal.
So so you want to talk about it

1309
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:30,320
OK, but no, I mean, would the
well the idea that when click

1310
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:33,400
when when people say things like
oscillations, hubbling in the

1311
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:35,560
car engine, which again was
people, a lot of people thought

1312
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:39,280
everybody thought 40 years ago,
30 years ago, but now only

1313
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:43,200
relatively few people think now
again, that is just that when

1314
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:45,080
you say that you are doing
nothing but defending A

1315
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:47,400
paradigm, you're not letting the
brain tell you how it works.

1316
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:50,600
So when you look at the way the
brain has evolved.

1317
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:54,680
Over time, the way we are, why
we are the way we are, who we

1318
01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:56,560
are.
Do you think there's an

1319
01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:59,520
overarching purpose that this is
headed towards?

1320
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:03,320
There's some sort of a teleology
in the list, pseudoscientific

1321
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:05,480
sense?
Do you think that evolution is

1322
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:08,240
headed somewhere with the way
it's constructing and navigating

1323
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:12,880
these oscillations it's headed?
Somewhere in the sense that

1324
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:16,160
there's some, you know, almost
there or overseer who's

1325
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:17,000
directing it.
I wouldn't.

1326
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:18,400
I wouldn't take it that far, I
would say.

1327
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:25,440
For example, let's say the goal
was eventually to conquer the

1328
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:27,520
planet.
So to so, so let's say that

1329
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:31,800
these brains are taking over in
a way that allows it to compute

1330
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:35,000
across galaxies.
Or do you think there's some

1331
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:41,200
deeper set of overarching goals
that this has?

1332
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:44,040
Really, Frank?
I don't know how to answer that

1333
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:46,240
dude.
I mean, it's it's, we're getting

1334
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:49,960
a little metaphysical here.
It is a philosophy podcast.

1335
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:51,640
So I tried to.
Give bring in a little bit of

1336
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:54,440
yeah, I hear you, I hear you.
I'm an empiricist, sorry.

1337
01:06:56,600 --> 01:07:00,800
I will say that, you know, what
evolution does, what life does

1338
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:03,800
is it's, it's building
complexity in an energy

1339
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:06,400
efficient way.
So as, as as it progresses,

1340
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:08,920
they'll always be complexity
adding on to things.

1341
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:13,000
But also you're doing this in a
way of gaining more energy,

1342
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:19,320
gaining, you know, fostering the
complexity in life using in an

1343
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:21,640
energy efficient way.
So in that sense, complexity

1344
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:25,840
will yield more complexity.
I see would would one of the one

1345
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:27,560
of.
The ways to look at it be, as

1346
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:30,200
you mentioned earlier, with with
entropy, it's just to try

1347
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:36,600
finding these smallest bundles
of high energy constraining in

1348
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:39,080
the universe.
So like maximizing these small

1349
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:42,360
energy bundles that sort of
utilize space and time as

1350
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:45,200
efficiently as possible.
So I'm trying to think of it

1351
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:48,160
from an empirical standpoint,
like as a good, beautiful,

1352
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:50,640
articulate way of explaining the
universe to someone.

1353
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:52,320
Yeah.
I mean, like, what?

1354
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:53,880
What's the, what's the analogy?
I.

1355
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:57,480
Heard is like entropy is like
this waterfall where energy is,

1356
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:00,520
you know, Big Bang, the energy
just gradually dissipating and

1357
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:03,280
what life is our little sprays
up in the opposite direction

1358
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:06,360
from the waterfall where they're
building, you know, complexity

1359
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:08,520
using energy vision, but
eventually it's all going to

1360
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:10,040
come down anyway.
I like that.

1361
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:11,480
Sorry, was that I haven't heard
of that one.

1362
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:12,480
That's a good.
One, but yeah.

1363
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:14,480
That's what that's.
Basically what I was trying to

1364
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:16,439
get to.
Nothing too much.

1365
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:20,040
Oh good, so so.
When you look at this, yeah,

1366
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:22,080
that's physics.
That's not metaphysics, exactly.

1367
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:24,279
When you look at the world right
now, the way.

1368
01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:27,640
The the way neuroscience is
progressing, the way your lab is

1369
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:29,880
progressing, what couldn't we
look forward to when we look at

1370
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:32,720
what you guys are doing?
What's what's, what's up for the

1371
01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:35,880
future?
Well, I hope more of the same.

1372
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:38,200
I'm trying to develop this
analog theory of consciousness

1373
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:41,200
where where the where the waves
are doing the long the brain is

1374
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:44,640
self organized and those waves,
the way patterns naturally

1375
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:49,279
produce consciousness and the
end through this organized, you

1376
01:08:49,279 --> 01:08:53,120
know, pattern cortex.
And I mean the thing, the thing

1377
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:57,000
to keep in mind there is that,
you know, one thing that, you

1378
01:08:57,000 --> 01:09:02,080
know, dualistic accounts of, of,
of consciousness of the mind is

1379
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:04,560
that somehow the mind is
different stuff from the brain.

1380
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:07,000
And so how do and then raised to
go well, how can the mind then

1381
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:09,160
influence the brain?
You know, well, The thing is it

1382
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:11,960
with analog computation, this
theory is correct, or at least

1383
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:15,080
correct in some stepping stone
kind of kind of way.

1384
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:20,080
That means that consciousness is
the emerging property of these

1385
01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:21,840
analog computations in the
brain.

1386
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:25,200
And if consciousness, which is
the wave patterns, and if the

1387
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:29,560
consciousness is, is a, is a
product of this version product

1388
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:33,720
of, of the computations in the
brain, then it then that's,

1389
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:36,800
that's how the, you know,
consciousness can then influence

1390
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:39,399
the brain.
The, the conscious is the stuff

1391
01:09:39,399 --> 01:09:43,080
of, of brain computations.
Therefore it can turn around and

1392
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:45,920
have a down influence and
influence brain computations.

1393
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:48,040
There's this barrier is now
gone.

1394
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:49,920
It's just, it's all one and the
same.

1395
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:53,040
And and Earl, what do you call
this theory?

1396
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:54,440
How do you describe it to
someone?

1397
01:09:54,440 --> 01:09:56,520
If someone had to ask you what
is your theory of consciousness?

1398
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:57,680
Well, how do you describe it to
them?

1399
01:09:58,440 --> 01:10:00,480
Well, I'm working on a review on
this right now and there's

1400
01:10:00,480 --> 01:10:02,160
actually.
There's a great website called

1401
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:06,800
The Landscape of Consciousness.
Robert Lawrence.

1402
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:08,520
Kuhn.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn, Yes.

1403
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:10,680
Sorry, I just.
Emailed him yesterday.

1404
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:13,880
I'm like senior, senior name
finding moment there.

1405
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:18,920
Yeah, it's a it, it, it, it
covers all these theories of

1406
01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:21,000
conscious everything from
religious, you know,

1407
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:24,200
philosophical to the more
empiricist materialistic

1408
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:27,360
approaches.
And our theory is under there.

1409
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:30,240
He calls it the analog brain
wave organization.

1410
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:32,520
I'm working interview under
right now.

1411
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:36,080
The short title on the working
title now is Analog

1412
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:38,520
consciousness.
Okay, interesting.

1413
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:40,360
Yeah, look, Roberts.
Work is wonderful.

1414
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:42,880
I love how he's made this
landscape and it's incredible

1415
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:46,320
how much, oh, he put a he put a
lot of work into that.

1416
01:10:46,440 --> 01:10:48,160
Yeah, that's.
Very impressive, I know.

1417
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:50,000
We've spoken about it many times
and and.

1418
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:52,040
And at some point I hope to help
him with this project.

1419
01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:54,360
But yeah, the goal is to get all
of these wonderful theories,

1420
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:56,880
your work, the incredible work,
all you guys have done and sort

1421
01:10:56,880 --> 01:10:58,800
of have a place for everyone to
enjoy it.

1422
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:01,560
And he did a fantastic job.
He wrote me and.

1423
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:04,920
Said, Oh, I've included your
analog theory in in the in the

1424
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:06,800
landscape of consciousness.
Here it is.

1425
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:09,640
And I read it and there's pretty
good summary and he asked me for

1426
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:12,480
any edits or editions I want.
He's very open minded, very

1427
01:11:12,480 --> 01:11:14,800
collaborative about it.
So, you know, I think he's doing

1428
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:16,320
a great service.
That's excellent.

1429
01:11:16,320 --> 01:11:18,080
So so the analog theory of
consciousness.

1430
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:20,080
Is that the name we're going for
for now?

1431
01:11:20,120 --> 01:11:22,720
That's, that's, that's, that's
today's name for it, yeah.

1432
01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:25,240
Well, Earl, it's incredible
work.

1433
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:26,760
Anything about?
The theory that you feel you

1434
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:28,760
haven't mentioned, haven't
touched on that you'd like to

1435
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:30,360
elaborate just to hit home for
people.

1436
01:11:31,440 --> 01:11:33,240
One thing I can mention is that
I've been talking.

1437
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:35,440
About this analog theory
conscious, how the brain wave

1438
01:11:35,440 --> 01:11:41,800
creates these mesoscale patterns
that unify the cortex Demetrius

1439
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:44,960
Ponosis and I have a theory
called the cytoelectric coupling

1440
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:47,800
hypothesis.
And the idea is that the same

1441
01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:50,760
brain waves actually project
down to the molecular level in

1442
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:54,600
the brain and they act what they
do is they fine tune neural

1443
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:58,400
circuits to oscillate better.
Remember I said the members of

1444
01:11:58,400 --> 01:12:02,560
my my analogy for consciousness
is grains of sand shifting on on

1445
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:05,520
the speaker.
Well, in that analogy, the

1446
01:12:06,520 --> 01:12:10,480
electric waves are, are the, you
know, sound from the speaker and

1447
01:12:10,480 --> 01:12:13,320
the the sand that are spiking
activity from neurons.

1448
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:15,720
But now go down to the micro
level.

1449
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:18,320
Now we're no longer talking
about the sand being spiking

1450
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:22,360
activity from neurons, about the
sand being the proteins and

1451
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:26,960
stuff that actually, you know,
the microtubules and the protein

1452
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:30,080
structural proteins that
actually make the infrastructure

1453
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:32,320
in the brain.
So what that means, what, what

1454
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:34,520
we think is that these, these
brain waves propagate down to

1455
01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:38,160
that level and it, it allows the
brain to fine tune itself from

1456
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:40,880
the molecular level to oscillate
more efficiently.

1457
01:12:41,480 --> 01:12:43,400
Now, of course that makes sense
because you, if the brain's

1458
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:46,800
going to oscillate, evolution's
going to want it to oscillate as

1459
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:49,920
energy, energy efficiency with
as much energy efficiency as

1460
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:52,400
possible, right?
So that's what we think is going

1461
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:54,280
on down the molecular level.
Now on the other end of the

1462
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:59,080
brain, it's making the brain
oscillate more with more energy

1463
01:12:59,080 --> 01:13:01,400
efficiency.
But since the oscillations are

1464
01:13:01,400 --> 01:13:04,160
also curing all this
information, what it means, it's

1465
01:13:04,160 --> 01:13:07,320
a way for the information that
the brain is processing to

1466
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:09,960
actually fine tune and structure
the brain on the molecular

1467
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:14,200
level.
So it's, if I may be grandiose,

1468
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:18,760
it's one of the few mind, the
molecules molecules, the mind

1469
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:20,360
frameworks you'll you'll
encounter.

1470
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:23,120
Geez, that is pretty incredible.
I think that.

1471
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:26,640
There's so much work that can be
done here and there's so much

1472
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:29,360
potential that it's pretty
insane.

1473
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:32,240
When you look back, did you ever
think that this is how far you'd

1474
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:34,440
get within this field?
Like this is something you'd

1475
01:13:34,440 --> 01:13:37,520
actually be doing?
No, like I said, I got here one

1476
01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:41,080
step at a time.
I only, I only realized I got

1477
01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:43,240
here like last week when I
really had the latest results,

1478
01:13:43,240 --> 01:13:46,600
you know, like, you know, I
didn't go, this is some

1479
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:48,400
grandiose ideas from the
beginning.

1480
01:13:48,400 --> 01:13:50,400
It was just one set of
experiments after the other,

1481
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:53,760
just the suggested things.
And again, with this, you know,

1482
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:57,000
my brain was trained by my
advisor to be willing to

1483
01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:59,960
dispense with dogma at at the
moment that some other

1484
01:13:59,960 --> 01:14:01,680
countervailing evidence comes
along.

1485
01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:04,080
And I think I've managed to
maintain that healthy

1486
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:06,680
skepticism, you know, thanks to
Charlie Gross.

1487
01:14:07,560 --> 01:14:09,200
Well, Earl, thank thanks to you
because.

1488
01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:11,920
This has been a really
intriguing conversation.

1489
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:13,120
Appreciate all the work you're
doing.

1490
01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:14,440
It's incredible, man.
Keep it up.

1491
01:14:14,440 --> 01:14:17,200
It's, it's really to watch it
from the outside.

1492
01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:19,560
It's, it's, it's a blessing for
us to actually see things like

1493
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:21,600
this come out.
And, and there's so many great

1494
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:25,080
guys like you with and ladies,
everybody coming out with such

1495
01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:27,560
incredible work lately.
And it's so hard to keep up.

1496
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:31,360
But when when one finds Someone
Like You, it's it's hard not to

1497
01:14:31,360 --> 01:14:34,480
advise the work being done.
Thank you very much.

1498
01:14:34,480 --> 01:14:36,080
It's very kind of you to say and
and it's.

1499
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:38,640
Been really great talking to you
and yeah, no, keep it up.

1500
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:41,440
It's a, it's it's, it's super.
Awesome and I can't wait to see

1501
01:14:41,440 --> 01:14:43,600
what you guys come up with.
It's it's fascinating, it's

1502
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:45,400
intriguing, it's it's
enlightening and new.

1503
01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:49,120
So I'm I'm really keen.
Thank you very much to.

1504
01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:51,880
To end of Earl, just one last
phrase if.

1505
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:54,520
You had to give us one last
description of what a brain is,

1506
01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:56,360
what a brain does, and what it's
for.

1507
01:14:56,360 --> 01:14:59,440
What would that be?
Your brain's an electrical

1508
01:14:59,440 --> 01:15:01,000
system.
And operates on music.

1509
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:02,920
Love it.