Is Your Whole Body Conscious? Biological Idealism: From Cells to Selves | Anna Ciaunica

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Anna, thank you so much for
joining me on the channel.

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It's such a pleasure to host
you.

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Thank you so much Tim for having
me.

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Anna, your work is it
beautifully challenges the

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concept of brain centrism and it
really invites us to think about

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cells origins going outward.
And what I want to know first is

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what inspired you to shift the
spotlight from neurons alone to

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this intricate body, this body
wide web of cellular self

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organization.
I think Devin, so I, I think

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this is coming from my
background in philosophy.

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So when I started to, you know,
study philosophy, I, I looked

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around and I did what's, you
know, everybody did where,

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where, which was like, you know,
reading the philosophers and

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learning about things and
everything else.

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But then one really, I mean, one
important thing stayed with me

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is the fact that there was so
few female philosophers in, you

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know, in the, you know, in the
course as I was reading and,

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and, you know, I was like,
could, you know, self identify

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myself as a female.
I said, well, why, why am I here

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actually?
And just like usually there's

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some guys, but not me.
So, so that, so that that kind

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of like started to the first
question and then I realized

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that, you know, women weren't
allowed to go to university

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until 130 years ago.
And what does it mean?

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It means that even if I am now
allowed to go to university and

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I'm among the lucky 1 lucky
ones, then it still means that I

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have inherited a concept of
toolbox I have to operate with

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and a way to look at the world
as I operate with.

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And that usually starts with
this, you know, idea of, you

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know, a genius solitary in an
ivory tower thinking about, you

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know, the immortality of the
soul and how the universe is all

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about and where you're going
from, blah, blah, blah.

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So that was like one way to put
it.

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But me as, you know, person, I,
I didn't relate to the world and

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to philosophy this way.
So for me, it was more like to

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understand how I, how I become a
philosopher, how I become

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thinker in a world which is
highly, let's say, connected

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with, you know, the messy
reality rather than with the

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abstract pure ivory tower,
because this was my reality.

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My reality was like messy,
messier, right?

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And than the one of the, let's
say, you know, the armchair.

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So even though I was like
trained in analytic philosophy

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and I was like really, really
diligent and was trying to

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understand what's going on.
And, and I think I, I realized

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that there's like so much
emphasis on, you know, cognition

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and language because there is so
much in minds, because some

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somehow related with the brain
and the mind.

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But I think the really important
question for me was like, if we

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connect intelligence and
cognitive abilities with the

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brain only, how come a bunch of
very dumb cells gave rise to

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something very smart?
So if the biggest problem that

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we have at living system as
humans is to stay alive as long

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as possible, why need to invent
2 systems, one dump and one

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smart to solve the biggest
problem that we have, which is

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stay alive, right?
So as soon as you, you know,

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emergent alive as a, you know,
cell or embryo, you still need

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to solve that problem at that
level, which is like how to wait

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harm and make sure it process
correctly the information that

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you get from them, from the
environment at that, you know,

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salary level.
If you feel that you don't get

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to have a brain, actually you
don't get to to exist.

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And then the question for me was
like, why nature when in bed 2

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systems, one it should want to
dump and one is smart because

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that's not a very smart thing to
do.

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And I think nature is very
smart.

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So because we are alive and we
have all this like, you know,

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beautiful abilities.
And then I realized that that

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actually we start with the wrong
end of the stick because we have

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this like other centric
perspective and disembodied

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perspective on how the human
mind works.

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And hence like the neurocentric
and brain centric perspective.

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And so that's my journey.
That's like I, I gave her like

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really my, my journey, how I got
to, because I really took very

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seriously my, my role as
philosopher to be a critical

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thinker.
And I'm having this discussion

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with my colleague
neuroscientists all the time

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because they're telling me, oh,
you philosophers, you never find

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anything.
It's like you can't report any

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findings.
You don't have anything, you

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know, concrete.
It's like you're all up in the

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air and it's like hand waving
and stuff.

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And and I have this conversation
with them all the time and tell

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me what what that's kind of
like.

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That's our job.
Our job is like the annoying

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part, which is to ask questions,
ask critical questions to make

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sure that we each time have a
different angle.

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And you know, that gives us why
the perspective and, you know,

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find the sports and they're a
bit weak and, you know, make

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advancement.
And that's not, I mean, that's

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the opposite of the dog, where
it's just like, if it is, you

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take it or leave it, you know,
Whereas critical thinking I

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think is super important.
And This is why philosophy

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should be at the core.
So philosophy as critical

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thinking, not as ivory tower,
let me tell you how the world

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works, but philosophical
thinking as critical thinking

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should be at the core of all
human enquiry.

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Yeah, I completely agree.
I think that's it's you have to

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always be that instigator and
that nitpicker because it's the

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only way to make progress is to
actually challenge the status

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quo.
Take it further.

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You often describe the immune
system as a foundational fact

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checker in quotes for survival,
working hand in hand with neural

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systems.
Could you unpack how this neuro

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immune coupling forms the very
rungs of life that give rise to

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thought and how this reframes
the classical mind body problem?

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Yes, thank you.
This is an an important and

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interesting question.
So if you followed me in, you

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know my reasoning so far saying
that well having 2 system, one

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dump, when one is smart, it's
not very small thing to do.

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If you're Mother Nature and you
have a big problem to solve

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which is like avoid death and
stay alive.

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Then from the very beginning you
have I mean the problem that you

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need to solve is like how can I
keep track of myself and

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whatever is not the self how?
I mean, how do I actually know

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who what matters for me?
Why do I care and why I actually

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shouldn't care or just avoid?
And one way to approach this is

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at the cellular level because
living systems, unlike long

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living system are highly
depending upon, you know,

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exchange interruption
environment.

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Because you need stuff from the
outside to function.

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You basically could create
yourself with environment all

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the time.
For instance, like at this

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moment, I'm breathing, you're
breathing.

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So we take in oxygen and we do
oxygen.

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I'm taking, you know, you know,
I'm breathing in.

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I, I take things that I really
need for my survival, like like

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oxygen, but I also maybe I take
a virus, hopefully not.

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And then that there'll be a big
trouble for me.

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So I cannot, I cannot shut down
everything to say, OK, I'm going

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to stay still, not move and live
forever.

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This is not how it works on
living system, living system.

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You need by definition, you're
vulnerable, independent when

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this exchanges for better and
for us.

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Now, if that's the case, then
and if your nature and you're

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you're smart, then you need a
mechanism very early on that

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will allow you to keep track
what is, you know, what is good

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for you and what is bad for you.
At the similar level already.

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And I think in mammals, in
mammals like us, that that

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system is the immune system and
the immune system is the system

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that keeps tracks, track what
what is good for you for the

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self and what is not good for
you for the self.

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So once you have that in place,
this means that you already can

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negotiate the boundary between
yourself and the environment in

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such a way that you actually
filter what is getting in, what

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is getting out.
I think also that will allow you

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to process information in
inherently qualitative manner.

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So because living system care
about themselves, I mean, the

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living system don't want to die.
This is what I mean.

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It's like living system want to
leave.

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This is what what they do was
like the the the life life be

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life is is like the ontology of
living system.

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It's not it's not something the
living system don't want the top

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of what they are.
They basically are, you know,

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the systems that avoid death and
want to keep alive.

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And you know, different system
have different strategies to

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keep alive.
Some some, you know, survive

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underwater, but they don't
survive in air and other they

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survive in air, but they don't
survive underwater.

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So the, the depending on the
environment, you, you, you have

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and you know, the trial and
error that you did and billions

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years of, you know, evolution,
then you, you, let's say you

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managed to get a solution like a
system is like, OK, so this

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works more or less.
And in the case of humans, that

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would be, I think, the systems
that we have, which is the

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immune system that allows
organists very early on in the

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development to decide which
information is good and should

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be processed and which
information is balanced.

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And most also most importantly
also which information should be

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ignored.
It's like which information to

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like Evapt, because qualitative
information processing means

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that if you're a successful
system, you need to process

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information that really matters
for you.

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Why?
Because living systems have a

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beginning and an end.
So this means that you don't

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have Infinity at your disposal
to say, well, you know, I don't

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care.
I can try everything like some

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sort of like formal mathematical
model where I can, you know, try

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all the infinite possibilities
like in a chess board.

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In life, you can't do that
because simply have a very

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limited, you know, lifespan.
So it can't really afford to

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process everything and try all
possible solutions.

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You, you need to focus on the
things that really matters.

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And for that you need to filter
the qualitatively the things

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that really matter and those who
actually need to ignore.

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And if you get that wrong, then
you waste energy and, you know,

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develop diseases and die very
early, very early on.

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And that's, that's, that's bad
news for you.

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So I think the idea of the
immune system working in tandem

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with, you know, other system
organist allows me to show that

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actually very important and very
small things are in place are

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the level of Organism before you
even have a brain to allow the

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organist to develop this like
highly sophisticated beautiful

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system, which is our brain that,
you know, integrates all this

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and makes, you know, our world
to appear to to feel so

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beautiful and so coherent and
and meaningful in most of the

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cases.
But that doesn't mean that we

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should, you know, overlook and
ignore the humble work that has

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been done by our body before our
mind kicks in with the, you

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know, met awareness.
Yeah, I think we have that one

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is very early on and it's kind
of like lingering our life all

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the time as and and more.
I don't know.

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I feel like when people do
meditation and they try to get

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rid of all the noise around and
just like focus on the pure,

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let's say existence, so to
speak.

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I think what is happening there,
we most likely want to go back

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to that existence, almost like
cellular existence, right.

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And we have that feeling of what
does it mean to be like a, a

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cell interconnected with the
world at, at a very, you know, a

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very simple way.
I don't like the word stupid or

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dumb, obviously, but you know, a
simple way.

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But simple doesn't mean
simplistic.

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It's it's mean.
It means just like powerful and

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fundamental.
Yeah.

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Because without that, without
that functioning you don't

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actually have, you cannot have
high sophisticated cognitive

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behaviour.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.

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I think even when you say the
the nervous system or the brain

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is such a sophisticated,
intricate system, people often

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forget about how intricate and
sophisticated the immune system

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actually is.
Because even as a doctor, we we

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learned such basic building
blocks in Med school that when

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you actually really think about
it philosophically,

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scientifically, the immune
system is one of the most

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intriguing, fascinating areas
that you could study it.

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It really is so complex that
it's one of those things that

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probably will give us as much
insight into understanding the

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nature of reality because of how
complicated it is.

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Was there a reason that made you
go down that route?

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Was there something specific
about it?

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Yes.
And actually, I came up across

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this, this topic where when I
was doing my work on embodiment,

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I mean embodiment from a
developmental perspective,

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because I asked myself, OK, so
well, we'd, we're not popping

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out from Zeewa's head like
Athena, like full of fledged

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individuals who kind of like
develop inside other people's

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bodies.
And I, I, I did some work on

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pregnancy because I think
pregnancy is again, going back

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to my journey as a female
philosopher said pregnancy is

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00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:36,480
kind of such a blind spot in
philosophy in general because

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when you think of pregnancy,
most of many people are

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automatically associate
pregnancy with certain category

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of people that have the ability
to carry babies and their

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00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,440
bodies.
But if you think that pregnancy

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00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,840
from the perspective of
developing individuals, all of

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00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,240
us have been inside another
person's body.

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00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,840
So the pregnant state is
universal state concerns, not

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00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:04,200
some people concerns all of us.
So I was so surprised that this

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00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,160
universality of the pregnant
state was not taken into account

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00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:13,000
by philosophy in general,
because not only the, it's like

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00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,960
traditionally the body was
disregarded, but, you know, the

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00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,520
other's body was disregarded
too.

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00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,440
And I mean biology, if you
believe in biology, and I do

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believe in biology, they say if
you look at how well actually

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things are, we can measure and
see them.

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00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:29,800
Then they say, oh, oh, wait a
minute.

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00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,080
Just like this is how it's
happening and why and how.

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00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,560
And then the interesting
question would be ask myself,

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OK, so suppose you are a cell
and, you know, an embryo and

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00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,120
want to develop.
And suppose you have your own

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immune system and Oh yeah, you
face bad things happen to you

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00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:50,920
and good things happen to you
and you need to make decision

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00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,000
and make good decision and bad
decision.

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00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,240
But then you are inside another
legal system.

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And the living system, the other
living system is not the object,

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is not some neutral like a room
or a vase or a, you know, box

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00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:09,319
kit.
So don't just drop an egg and

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00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:13,319
you know, the egg just develops.
It's just like it's a constant

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00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,079
negotiation and very careful
negotiation between the two

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00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:21,040
organs about the resources and
the space they're going to share

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00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:22,480
for let's say nine months,
right?

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So and obviously the two system
have different immune system.

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So how the two immune system
communicate to make sure that

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00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:35,760
you know, I'm not going to, you
know, reject you or you reject

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00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,000
me or you know, something
something bad is happening.

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So I did some work on on on that
side, because I think this is a

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00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:48,000
key.
This is a key question and a

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00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,160
fascinating one.
If we understand how we

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00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,320
negotiate the self order
representation, boundary

279
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,640
relationship at that level
through the communication of the

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00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:01,200
two immune systems, then we
might veil something really

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00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,240
important for the mental about
how we function once that

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00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,880
problem is solved in, you know,
in the rest of the world,

283
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,920
because that, that, that
communication very early on

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00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,760
those exchanges, they give us
like a tool.

285
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,400
They prepare us like a tool to
to exchange with, with

286
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,720
environment in a way that is
really, really highly adaptive.

287
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,680
And there is this is an ongoing
work.

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00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,080
I mean, it's like, as I said,
it's like the the this idea

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00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,120
that, well, the mind is somehow
related.

290
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,360
When I started my career,
embodiment was such a fringe

291
00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:40,120
thing to do.
It's like, oh, this is like, you

292
00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:42,920
know, new age flow power.
Yeah.

293
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,000
Now it's getting more people
getting more and more, you know,

294
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,520
used to the idea.
Yeah, I think that's OK.

295
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,400
We have a body and somehow it's
related to the mind and that

296
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,680
it's important.
So they, we kind of like get

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00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,760
there and the next step was say,
well, actually the body is

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00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,480
related to other bodies and from
there to the world.

299
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,320
And so it's, it's slowly getting
there.

300
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,280
But I what I think what is
happening, the level of the, the

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00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:14,720
pregnancy is still very much
like a grey area.

302
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,280
So it's an open question and
many things that need to be

303
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,280
answered.
And one of them is, is the fact

304
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:30,520
that there is an organ that has
been overlooked, you know, in,

305
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,280
in philosophy, and that's the
placenta.

306
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:39,280
So the placenta is an universal
organ and is a relational organ,

307
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,000
paroxetine.
So that's, that's, that's

308
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,240
something that mediates like
stands in between.

309
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:51,480
And it's, it's an open question,
but some people argue, and I

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00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,160
tend to agree with them, that
what is happening with placenta,

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00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,120
they form a third immune system.
So almost like a mediator, like

312
00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:01,040
a negotiator.
OK, so let's say, what do you

313
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:02,160
have?
What do you have?

314
00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:04,640
Let's see whether we know we can
arrange this.

315
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,760
I mean, you and I, we are the
product of a successful

316
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,080
negotiation because we are still
here, we are alive.

317
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,480
But you know, in some cases
actually.

318
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,800
You know, baby can die, the
mother can die or both can die.

319
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:24,440
So sadly, as we know, so it's
not pre given.

320
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,280
That's a negotiation, that's an
ongoing process.

321
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:32,160
And I, I like this idea of
negotiation because I think this

322
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,160
is precisely what it is.
There are two systems that try

323
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:42,880
to come to an agreement, you
know, to bring new forms of

324
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,240
life.
And for that they need to share

325
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:51,360
resources and space.
And I think this notion of like

326
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,440
sharedness is super important
because I think that's also

327
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,400
something that we tend to take
for granted and we let it aside,

328
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,760
especially we take like the high
level approach and

329
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,600
individualistic approach, right
way.

330
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,520
Once we have been provided with
everything, we tend to consider

331
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,520
ourselves like autonomous and
individuals.

332
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:20,720
But actually, if we function so
well right now is because we

333
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:27,240
mustered very early on with our
caregivers, the sharedness of

334
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,960
experiences that gave us, you
know, the tools to allow us to

335
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,840
flexibly engage in the
environment very early on.

336
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,680
So we have the illusion that we
can do it on ourselves and it

337
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,920
can be on our self without other
people.

338
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,600
But that's just an illusion.
The fundamental state that we

339
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,800
have a set of the shared
information and the way you are

340
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,480
able to share information, to
exchange information that will

341
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:57,280
define your chances for
survival, not how good, how

342
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:58,800
smart, how fast you're in your
room.

343
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,640
So I think that's, that's kind
of like a flip on, on the

344
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,680
perspective.
I would like to propose it's,

345
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:10,640
it's not for the faster, it's,
it's about if you're, you're

346
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:15,240
more successful, if you're more
willing to negotiate and take

347
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,360
advantage of that negotiation
between, between between the

348
00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:20,360
systems.
And I think that's, that's an

349
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:24,280
important, I think that's an
important ship that we should

350
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,240
bear in mind, especially when we
want to create artificial

351
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:32,960
version of ourselves, because
we, we tend to hoard information

352
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:39,600
with AI systems and nature
didn't, didn't create us as

353
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,720
hoarder, it created.
That's, that's one of the

354
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,200
reasons why I wanted to start
off this way was because even as

355
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,640
while reading about it, when I
read that paper, I thought about

356
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,640
the fact that this is the first
time I'm thinking I'm reading

357
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:57,320
about pregnancy or developmental
from the womb from a

358
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,640
philosopher's perspective, which
is fascinating.

359
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,840
And what you're touching on is
exactly why as being a woman in

360
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,080
philosophy doing this, it gives
us such an important insight

361
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,080
that's been neglected for
thousands of years.

362
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,120
And, and for anyone who hasn't
read that paper, I will put a

363
00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:13,560
link to it.
You also wrote a an essay, I

364
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,200
think it was an aeon that was
called from cells to Cells.

365
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,560
I think it was called.
Yes.

366
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:19,960
Yeah.
So if someone wants an easier

367
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,320
reader, I'll also put a link to
that as well.

368
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,960
But one of the striking things
that you do say in both of those

369
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,920
pieces of work is, is, is that
we perceive through every single

370
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,320
cell of our body, especially in
those early developmental, these

371
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,480
early developmental stages in
the womb.

372
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:36,760
What profound insights?
I mean, you just mentioned some

373
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,920
briefly, but what profound
insights does this nested

374
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,360
cellular perspective give us
into the very origins of

375
00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:48,720
consciousness in itself?
I think it's, I mean, that's,

376
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:53,200
that's an important and, you
know, huge question, so I'll try

377
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,480
to make it.
Take your time, take your time,

378
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,800
feel free the part because this
is about you, right Dads, I just

379
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:05,280
spoke to you.
So consciousness typically is

380
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:13,520
defined as, you know, as the
ability to have phenomenal

381
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:19,960
quality of our experiences.
So would Thomas Nagel, as I

382
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,480
said, very famously argue that,
you know, there's something what

383
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:28,000
it is like for me to be in a
certain state or for a bat to be

384
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,040
in a certain state.
So there is like a phenomenal

385
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,880
aspect of our experiences, which
is qualitative and subjective.

386
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,680
So that's one way to understand
consciousness and many people

387
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,120
talk about qualia regarded to
phenomenal consciousness.

388
00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:51,480
I again, as I said this, like I,
I hear what people say, I but

389
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,520
again, with my critical insight
that I inherited from my

390
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,080
grandmother, I have to say I was
just like not the type to just

391
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:03,760
like take whatever the world for
whatever she was like actually

392
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,160
she was, I think she was a bit
Keshtenia without realizing

393
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,040
because her favorite thing was
like, wait a minute, let me

394
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,080
think, you know, And that's
what's bit Keshao say it's like,

395
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,120
let me think, you know, I'm not
sure.

396
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,400
Let me think.
So I, I did some thinking on

397
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:26,200
this and I, I think I disagree
with the very concepts of

398
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,240
consciousness in qualia.
And I know it's radical, but I,

399
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,120
I don't think there was a thing
called consciousness and I don't

400
00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:34,080
think there was a thing called
qualia.

401
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:42,640
I think there's a object or a
ratified concepts like that we

402
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,640
use because it's easy.
So we talk about consciousness

403
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,600
and as one word and talk about
qualia as one word, which makes

404
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:55,520
us very it's very easy to just
like reify them as I don't know

405
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:56,560
this nail Polish.
Yeah.

406
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,720
So this May is that you can.
And if you tacitly consider as

407
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,320
an object, then you say, well, I
can move it from point A to

408
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,600
point B.
So let's suppose I like one of

409
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,840
those series like upload, right?
So I, I take my consciousness

410
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,560
from my head and put it in some
virtual body and I'm going to

411
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,320
live for it.
They are from the virtual world,

412
00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:18,400
right?
So if you conceive consciousness

413
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:23,160
this way, like, like, like a
thing, then you we have tons of

414
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,160
thoughts I consider.
So I want to say radically

415
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,160
actually there is why
consciousness is not a thing.

416
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,320
I think consciousness is
something living system do.

417
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:38,920
So it's, it's, it's a verb.
It's, it's a process.

418
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:45,160
It's, and I, I would like to
change the phrasing from

419
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,560
consciousness to talk about
conscious experiences.

420
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,520
And I want to put the focus on
the experience because

421
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,200
experience is something like a
very interesting word because

422
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:03,240
it's in itself is it includes
the time, it includes the

423
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,320
sensory, it includes like the
individual.

424
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,800
So how experiences do not flot
in the air experience are given

425
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,840
to a certain individual hearing
now.

426
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,480
And I can also make a
distinction between two notion

427
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:20,720
of experience.
And you will see, I hope that

428
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,720
this distinction will answer
your question, right.

429
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,920
So what is the complexity?
So I want to say that we have

430
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,960
what they call the experience in
North, which is the Negalian why

431
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,760
it's in a real quality, which I
think it's it's an important

432
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,320
part of the experience, but it's
a bit sophisticated.

433
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,120
So I think we do have
experiences what they call

434
00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:50,720
experiencing G like grounded or
I, I have a paper with Eric

435
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,760
Beckhus on, on this, which is
related to artificial

436
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,880
consciousness.
But you know, we make the point

437
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,440
on this as well, like human
experience mean human conscious

438
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,360
experience.
I'm experienced AG coming from

439
00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:05,800
roundy, but actually when I
propose a term was coming from

440
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,120
my grandmother and IG like my
grandmother because she was

441
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:15,680
telling something like I have
experiencing in opening wine

442
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,120
bottles because I did open a lot
of wine bottles before.

443
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,120
So experiences in the sense
means like on the ontological

444
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:27,240
process of cruel oil free events
in states in special time prone

445
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:34,200
association to actually do stuff
in this sense fetuses my

446
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:39,240
experience after certain time or
babies can experience, you know,

447
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,160
cats experience, you know,
living system experience the

448
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,960
world.
And it says like they go through

449
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:50,360
a certain type of like, you
know, events at the sensory

450
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:55,040
level to solve the problem, how
to stay alive and how not to

451
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,480
die.
And they do that before they

452
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,400
actually have a highly
sophisticated cognitive system.

453
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,240
Tell them, like, let me think,
shall I go right or shall I go

454
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:05,800
left?
Yeah.

455
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,840
So we don't have time as living
system to do this type of

456
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,720
sophisticated thinking.
And there are a lot of studies

457
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,880
that show that, for instance,
like tennis players, if you are

458
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,800
in the flow, you know, are just
like you, you perform very well.

459
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,640
But as soon as you ask them to
think of their movements, they

460
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,000
they got impaired because
cognitive high level thinking

461
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,280
is, is, is efficient, but is
requires a certain condition,

462
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,800
which is like energy consuming.
And you need to have like a

463
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,960
learning limited square where
you can actually focus on that.

464
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,760
If you are on the move and life
is about movement, nothing is

465
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,600
really static things, they're
always changing.

466
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,520
Nothing really goes according to
the plan, you know.

467
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,400
So then then this means that you
need to somehow navigate this

468
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,760
through experiences in a very
dynamic way.

469
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:01,040
And I would say that for me,
those experiences are

470
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,160
fundamentally embodied.
And I would say what is really,

471
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,760
really important is embodied
experiences in the sense I don't

472
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:15,960
define like G, like rounded.
And on the top of that, you can

473
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:21,000
have phenomenal experiences, and
that's something that appears at

474
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,280
the surface of existence.
So we use the metaphor in our

475
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,960
paper with Eric where we we use
the metaphor of the ocean.

476
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,800
So you can think of experiences
G as the ocean and experiences N

477
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,400
as the waves.
So the idea is like, you can,

478
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,400
you cannot have the waves
without the ocean, but you can

479
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,520
have a ocean without the waves.
So in order to have phenomenal

480
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,480
experience, this is not enough
to have like the qualia

481
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:51,600
obstructed from whatever the
body does or the experiences us

482
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:57,400
in the past of the country that
that is whatever experience

483
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:58,320
means.
Yeah.

484
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,360
And then it's an open question
that I haven't thought about yet

485
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:07,760
yet exactly what I want to call
that the entire spectrum.

486
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:12,640
I want to call, you know, call
it conscious experience, whereas

487
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,360
like and they have like implicit
awareness versus explicit

488
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,000
awareness.
Let's say, suppose you're

489
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,080
sleeping and when you sleep,
obviously you have your eyes

490
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,640
closed, but you still need to
breathe.

491
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,200
So there is self related censory
processing when you sleep

492
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,240
because it has to be.
And actually you hear for, you

493
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:41,480
know, you know, auditory signals
are still processed during sleep

494
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,360
because if you hear like a tiger
coming, you need to, you know,

495
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,520
wake up and run.
From an evolutionary

496
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,960
perspective, for the survivor,
it's very important to still

497
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:56,960
keep like a, you know, an eye, a
figurative eye on what's going

498
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:58,840
on for coming from outside.
Why?

499
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,560
Because as I said, we live in a
shared world.

500
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,320
We don't live in a bubble.
So it's like whether I like it

501
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,440
or not, this kind of exchanges
are there all the time.

502
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:11,520
So how do you solve that
problem?

503
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,240
So if you consider that
conscious experience as

504
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,120
necessarily related just with
the awareness of what I have

505
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,200
when I have like what it is like
this of my experiences, then

506
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,480
then you have a big problem of
how you explain, you know, the

507
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,640
passage of switch on and switch
off bottom right When exactly

508
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,520
you actually, you know,
conscious whoever how many

509
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,760
neurons you have.
I mean, you need to have for the

510
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:41,520
wemness to kick in and where
exactly those neurons need to

511
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,880
stop is the neurons that you
have in the stomach.

512
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:45,760
Why?
Because you have neurons in the

513
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,000
belly before you have the
neurons in the brain and you

514
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,920
know where exactly you know the
the mind is that when it stops

515
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,000
at the neck, you know why at the
neck?

516
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,280
They know what where where
exactly in the skull.

517
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,840
So I, I think we have big
problems if we think of this

518
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,600
distinction very like because
you're, you're talking about

519
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,520
mind body problem, but I think
that's, that's a huge problem

520
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,520
that you have.
Whereas like if you are asleep

521
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:18,440
and in my proposal, you're still
experiencing inexperiencing the

522
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:23,000
sense, like you're still
hearing, like the noise of the

523
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:28,400
city, it will still smell, you
know, the fresh air or you smell

524
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:33,040
like the smoke.
And those information are

525
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,040
processed by your brain.
And if your brain is correct and

526
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,360
making the decision, this is
smoke.

527
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,040
I don't like this.
Let's kick in.

528
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,960
You know, this extra mechanism
to bring in the metal when it's

529
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,240
explicit thing and then you wake
up and realize there is smoke

530
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,960
and you want to survive.
So you, you know, try to escape

531
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,320
then that might explain why you
are still experiencing during

532
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:04,960
the sleep and you build on that.
So yeah, there is there is a

533
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:11,080
track record, a fact checker
that works for you all the time.

534
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,960
And that's your body.
That's this is what your body

535
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,800
does right with through the
lungs, through all the other

536
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,520
metabolism.
Not not necessarily just like

537
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,239
the conscious awareness, like
the phenomenal thing that we

538
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,600
have on the top of that, the
fact that we do have that.

539
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,360
I think that's that's
fascinating.

540
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,360
And you know, it adds, it adds
like, as I said, like the

541
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,360
sophistication of what
dislikeness and and that's

542
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,840
that's something we are
philosophers are obsessed with.

543
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,840
But for me, what is really
interesting is how how we keep

544
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,760
experiencing all the time.
And I think the really

545
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,920
interesting question is like how
we get from those experiences G

546
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:03,520
to the experiences F.
For me, it's it's on a

547
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:08,400
continuum.
So there is no pineal gland

548
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,160
problem because there is one
single big system.

549
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,440
And that's an important self
organizing system, which has a

550
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,680
big, big problem, which is I
don't want to die.

551
00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:23,360
And everything is every type of
information that you process is

552
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,200
through that lens and you
process that.

553
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,920
This is what I said with every
single cell.

554
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,120
You process that with your skin
when you sleep, because if you

555
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:37,960
feel the heat on your skin,
that's, you know, connected with

556
00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:41,960
a subtle signal in the brain
that says, well, I don't like

557
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,120
that.
Wake up and run.

558
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:50,040
And if you fail to wake, then,
you know, it's like that's the

559
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:51,920
end of it.
And then that's that's bad news.

560
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,920
Yeah.
So This is why I want to say

561
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,240
it's like, I think we need.
And it's like provocatively say,

562
00:35:57,240 --> 00:36:00,360
saying that eon peace.
Do you need your toes to think?

563
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,880
And, and the answer is yes.
And many people say, what do you

564
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,720
mean?
It's like, I can cut my toes and

565
00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:09,440
sell thick.
And but the problem is, have you

566
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:14,000
actually got to sing?
You know, I actually got there,

567
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,200
you know it as I said, it's like
we're not teleported on the type

568
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,200
of the mountain.
And I have another metaphor for

569
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,960
this because for years I was
using the metaphor of, of a tree

570
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,840
because of the developmental
aspect.

571
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:31,920
I was trying to make the case
that we might be very tempted

572
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,520
from the other centric,
neurocentric and brain centric

573
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,920
perspective to when when I look
outside my window, I see a tree

574
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,480
and I'm fascinating by the
branches and the trunk and

575
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,000
everything.
And I want to understand how the

576
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,120
tree works.
And I just like focus on that

577
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,600
connection, how exactly that
branches connect with the other

578
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:48,960
one And I'm measuring
everything.

579
00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:54,400
But if I don't look down in the
roots and I disregard the roots

580
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,560
of the tree, I actually don't
understand how the system works

581
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,880
as a whole and how you develop
from a seed to actually a tree.

582
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,040
And this is what I was trying to
put forward is like in humans is

583
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,000
the same.
It's fascinating to look at how

584
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,560
the adult brain works.
But if you don't understand how

585
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,600
the brain works in others
developing from, you know, the

586
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:20,120
cellular through, you know,
developmental on a site, then

587
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,240
you miss my miss something like
important about big picture on

588
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,880
you know, how what tree is, what
human needs, what the human mind

589
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:29,760
is.
So that was one of my favorite

590
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,840
metaphors also because I like
trees, but now I have another

591
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,440
one which is connect with the
mountain.

592
00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:42,120
I like mountains too.
And I think what I'm trying to

593
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,040
push against is this idea that
suppose you want to climb the

594
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,720
mountain, and obviously you'll
start with the first step, and

595
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,480
you start with the first step,
and then you climb, you climb,

596
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:52,920
climb, and you arrive on the
top.

597
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,560
Let's say you have the plateau
and everything looks so

598
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,640
beautiful right there.
You look like tall down.

599
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,360
You literally look down on other
systems, right?

600
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,920
But if you want to define what
climbing of the mountain means

601
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,560
as a process, you can't really
understand how you got there

602
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,240
without the first step.
And you can't say that the first

603
00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:18,600
step is minimal because whatever
was minimal at that stage was

604
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,040
maximal at that stage, because
this is precisely what you

605
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,000
needed to do at that particular
stage.

606
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,320
So maybe if you do exactly the
same, a different level, that

607
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,160
will not work.
So hence you need to take the

608
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,960
system again as a whole.
And what counts, what we might

609
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,240
see when we look down from our
sophisticated other central

610
00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:40,000
perspective, We literally look
down on those like humble system

611
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,520
that do the work for us before
we are able to actually look

612
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,600
back and understand how they
work.

613
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,200
It's like to treat them as
simple and dismiss them, but I

614
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,080
don't think that's the right
approach.

615
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:58,240
I think every single step comes
in the climb of the mount and

616
00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:01,280
the way you connect.
Step one, Step 2, Step 3, until

617
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,520
you actually get on the top.
That was that was that for me.

618
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,560
This is what experience means in
a grounding sense.

619
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,320
So this means that the climbing
of the mount is what what what

620
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:18,640
tease experiences.
And then we arrive on the top of

621
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,560
the mountain and we have like
that sophisticated way of like,

622
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,800
you know, looking back in the
past, look in the future,

623
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,280
looking inside and having the
same perspective qualities that

624
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:37,000
we have as as adults.
But that, but that that's really

625
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,520
builds on the humble small
steps.

626
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:42,880
Yeah, no, I, I love these
analogies.

627
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,440
I think it's, it's important to
sort of to think that way

628
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,400
because it, it paints A clearer
picture for people.

629
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,360
For example, the one with the
tree, you you spoke about the

630
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,360
roots, but people often also
neglect the things like the

631
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,800
fungi that helped them to
communicate.

632
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,280
There's all these smaller things
beyond that that, as you said,

633
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,400
paints such a bigger picture for
us.

634
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,360
It's similar to us when we think
about the microbiome and how

635
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,040
much bacteria actually run a
human body.

636
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,480
We, we don't really consider
that as being human, but to to

637
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,000
be fair, we've got so many more
bacterial cells in our system

638
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,640
that technically we're, we're,
we're more bacteria than we are

639
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:18,880
human.
So, and that's one of my

640
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,080
favorite things about Tolkien is
these books behind me.

641
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,720
But is the ends when they
communicate the trees is that

642
00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:28,360
they communicate much, much
slower than the hobbits, let's

643
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,800
say.
And that's the same thing about

644
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:32,560
realities.
Trees actually do communicate.

645
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,760
It's just that the pace, the
speed and the way that which

646
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:36,880
they do it, It's a different
type of cognition that's

647
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:38,880
occurring or intelligence, let's
say.

648
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,520
But you point out that cognition
existed long before neurons and

649
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,480
even in bacteria and other
neural forms.

650
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,960
When you, when you think about
something like that and because

651
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,600
I want to paint a deeper picture
of experience, but first

652
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:56,600
understanding that what you're
doing is not trying to

653
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:00,640
anthropomorph, anthropomorphize
trees, rather you're trying to

654
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,400
naturalize cognition and and
that's an important point for

655
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,280
people to understand.
So do you want to perhaps build

656
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,040
on that?
Yeah.

657
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,520
So I actually think that in
order to understand how the

658
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,400
human mind works, instead of
focusing what set us apart from

659
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:21,360
other living systems, we need to
understand what we share in

660
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,800
common, what we have in common.
What I I think we want to

661
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,240
understand paradoxically way
more about ourselves.

662
00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:30,880
We understand what we have in
common with our living system

663
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,920
rather than what set us apart.
Like, I don't know, mathematics,

664
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,600
logic, arts and whatever this
type of things.

665
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,320
I think the whole country there
is something very fundamental,

666
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,960
very fundamental in the sense
like the first step to the

667
00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:48,720
climbing on the mountain.
And I think obviously all

668
00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:52,560
depends on how you define
intelligence but or cognition.

669
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:58,800
But from the perspective of life
and humans are clearly living

670
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:03,080
systems, then if you define
intelligence from the

671
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:08,880
perspective of living system
over, then the smart thing to do

672
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:13,560
for a living system is to stay
alive as long as possible and to

673
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,520
survive in the species as long
as possible.

674
00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:20,440
So that's what the successful
problem solving is in for

675
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,480
intelligence system in living
system.

676
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,880
Yeah.
So this means that from that

677
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,440
perspective, there are certain
creatures in this world that

678
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:33,080
have been in this world before
us who will most likely be here

679
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,640
after we get extinct.
So from the light perspective,

680
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,400
those are very high intelligent
systems.

681
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,640
I mean, life doesn't care if you
know, you know, how to, you

682
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,600
know, solve the differential
equations if you just die

683
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,640
tomorrow, that's not very smart.
Yeah.

684
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:54,280
So life perspective really is
about, you know, keep going,

685
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,560
keep going.
And that's, you know, keep,

686
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:58,080
keep, keep it to the flow,
right.

687
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,560
This works only if you consider
there is only this damage.

688
00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:08,880
I mean, I know that some people
consider there to different

689
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,240
dimensions.
So they have like the natural or

690
00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:14,920
supernatural or, you know, we
have the natural dimension and

691
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,040
we have formal dimension like,
you know, abstract spaces, like

692
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,520
back plateauing spaces.
I personally, this is, you know,

693
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,960
my, my choice.
I, I stick to it.

694
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,560
I'm not saying it's the correct
one or the only one.

695
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,200
I'm saying this is what I, you
know, endorse is that I, I think

696
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,960
there's only this thing which is
called, you know, it's, it's

697
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:39,720
happening now.
And the I, I, I don't have like

698
00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:43,080
a new dimension or a second
shot, unfortunately.

699
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,760
So I, I need to be careful what
I'm doing here and now, right?

700
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,000
So from that, from that
perspective, life perspective,

701
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,400
then intelligence.
And if you define intelligence

702
00:43:54,400 --> 00:44:00,600
this this way, this means that
you, where you change, you shift

703
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,880
to the perspective.
And this means that we do share

704
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,400
with the system.
This is why it's important.

705
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,400
The clarification that you said
about anthropomorphisation, it's

706
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,840
like it's actually the opposite
of entrepreneurisation.

707
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:19,520
I want to focus that we do share
with the system big problem we

708
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,720
all have.
We share the big problem, which

709
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:25,360
is we don't want to die.
So that's and stay alive and,

710
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,120
and and that's something
fundamental.

711
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,840
And then different system
depending on the environment,

712
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,520
depending on many, many factors,
they, they solve the same

713
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,360
problem in very different way,
right?

714
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,280
So like as I said, the fungi
solve the problem by

715
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,800
communicating through different
channels, the trees, they do it

716
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:46,680
through a different time pace.
Whales are doing differently.

717
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:48,720
I know bacteria, they're doing
differently.

718
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:52,200
They communicate and they
actually some parasites, you

719
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:56,560
know, they, they try to, you
know, use other people, other

720
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,680
living system resources to, you
know, solve again the same

721
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,920
problem.
So I think if we bring back the

722
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:10,560
mind body distinction, mind body
problem and linking to the the

723
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:15,000
big problem that we have our
sleeping system, which is this

724
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,120
is our own dimension and stay in
it, stay here.

725
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:23,240
Yeah, it's like this is cool.
It's like we shouldn't try

726
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:28,720
anything else.
Then we have other problems but

727
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:33,120
not the classical mind body
problems because I think the

728
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:38,600
classical mind body problems
comes from what they take to be

729
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,000
the somer semi theory that we
have inherited from the Greeks.

730
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:48,680
And you know our our tradition
somer semi theory means somer

731
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:53,160
means body like somatic therapy
blower and somer means tomb.

732
00:45:54,800 --> 00:46:01,000
So the idea was that the body
was a tomb for the soul and, and

733
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,360
the spirit or the mind or the
psyche.

734
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:14,000
And personally, and again, this
is my personal opinion, is that

735
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:20,960
I think that we have invented
the this distinction as a coping

736
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:25,520
mechanism to resist the idea
that we're going to disappear.

737
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,880
So it's like, again, it's the
same big problem.

738
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,200
We don't want to die and how to
solve that problem, It's like,

739
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,080
well, maybe, you know, it's
like, maybe I'm not really

740
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:38,840
really dying.
You know, maybe there's just

741
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,040
like there is something of me
that can be, you know, passed on

742
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,440
on a different level and, you
know, I don't know, emboding a

743
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:51,480
different, you know, things.
And because the body is this

744
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,720
thing that you see the groin and
decaying and the body is the

745
00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:57,880
thing through which you, you
know, you suffer, you get ill

746
00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,720
and you get all this like
problems.

747
00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:05,040
And, you know, you see, you see,
you know, dead bodies.

748
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,480
And they say, OK, so that's
it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a

749
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:09,600
real problem.
It's a thing.

750
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,080
Yeah.
So.

751
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:16,800
And I think we humans, we, we
know that we're going to die.

752
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,960
So I, when we start to become
adults and we understand what,

753
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,360
you know, what, we have this
meta called in people Wellness

754
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:31,680
and we, we developed coping
mechanism to this massive, huge

755
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,160
problem.
As I I think I look at my cat,

756
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,760
you know, she's super happy and,
you know, one day she will die,

757
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:44,160
but she doesn't really, you
know, you know, have existential

758
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,240
anxiety and issues about this.
She's just like enjoying life,

759
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:49,320
whatever she does now.
And then one day, poof,

760
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:50,760
disappear, and that's it.
Yeah.

761
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,560
And most likely infants and
children are like that as well.

762
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:56,800
So they.
And I think the wisdom that, you

763
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,520
know, we try to get when we do
all this like meditation and

764
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,840
retreat is like to make peace
with this idea, say, well, stay

765
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:04,840
in the present, stay in the
present, stay in the present

766
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,000
because it's the only thing that
actually exists here.

767
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,600
So my cat in that sense is
highly philosophical being

768
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,680
because she always stays in the
present.

769
00:48:14,240 --> 00:48:18,240
She doesn't meditate, but she's
like, she knows that She's like,

770
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,840
I don't, I don't want to know.
Which is like, you know, I was

771
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,040
like, yeah, I was like, I know
there is something there.

772
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:29,480
But I'm yeah, let me, I'm not
going to stop and think about

773
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,360
just like enjoy my moment, enjoy
the hearing nap like like a cat.

774
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:41,120
So that that we have inherited
that from the tradition and then

775
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,280
we have the Cartesian
distinction and all the problems

776
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,400
are exactly they connect with
each other and all that.

777
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:53,880
But I think in the end that that
distinction that we have is, is

778
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:59,400
it only signals for me something
beautiful about humans, which is

779
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:06,400
our vulnerability and the fact
and our temporality and our fact

780
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,680
that we, we find it being and we
have an end.

781
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,080
And that makes us, you know,
vulnerable.

782
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:17,880
And I, I think in a way that's
something beautiful, something

783
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:25,320
that we can share, because I
think that's, that's a necessary

784
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:29,200
condition for life.
And I'm very careful when I'm

785
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:34,920
saying this because when people,
I I asked my students, I'm

786
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:37,480
playing this game with them and
I'm telling them, OK, so let's

787
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,040
play a game.
I'm going to say a word.

788
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,280
They say the opposite quietly,
quickly.

789
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:47,440
So let's say good, bad, and I'm
telling them death and they mean

790
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,960
to say life.
And I'm saying no, no, it's

791
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:51,440
wrong.
I said, what do you mean it's

792
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,120
wrong?
I said the opposite of death is

793
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:57,120
birth.
It's like birth and death are

794
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:01,840
the two, you know, catastrophic
points that in life is in

795
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,040
between.
Technically speaking, eternal

796
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:09,520
life doesn't mean anything.
It's like it cannot be eternal

797
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:13,720
life because there has been a
beginning that you take for

798
00:50:13,720 --> 00:50:15,640
granted.
And it's like, the point is

799
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:16,760
like, you don't want to have an
end.

800
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:18,040
But that's something very
different.

801
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,520
You know, it's like it did have
the beginning.

802
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:25,280
And then the question is, where
were you before being born,

803
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,360
right?
It's like it's clear that you

804
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,360
want to go somewhere when you
die because you don't want to

805
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:33,160
disappear.
But didn't I think the really

806
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:37,000
interesting question, if you put
life in between birth and death,

807
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,880
then you have two problems,
another problem, right?

808
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,800
It's like not just like
afterlife, but before life too,

809
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,240
right?
And that's one single big

810
00:50:46,240 --> 00:50:52,120
problem.
And I, I think life necessarily

811
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:57,680
implies that there is a
beginning and there is an end

812
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,200
and there isn't a beauty in
this.

813
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:08,200
Let's say this constraint that
is like makes things very

814
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:13,280
intense for us.
I think, I think it even goes

815
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,240
further because if you, if you
had to, if we had to nitpick

816
00:51:16,240 --> 00:51:19,360
that further and take it even
further, then one could still

817
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:20,840
say that.
I mean, when does the birth

818
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:22,600
really occur?
When does the death really

819
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,320
occur?
Because the fact is, prior to

820
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,080
birth, every cell's doing many
things within your mum or

821
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,960
whatever, or the sperm cell,
whatever.

822
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,480
But if you take it further to
death, I mean, you're decaying,

823
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,160
you're becoming compost, you're
doing something, you're becoming

824
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,640
part of another species perhaps
in terms of whatever eats you.

825
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,360
So, so it's kind of this
continuous process as well.

826
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,200
And so when does that occur and
where do we draw this line?

827
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:53,000
Yeah, Yeah.
I think, I think to answer that

828
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,720
question, we need to go back to
the notion of self and self

829
00:51:55,720 --> 00:52:01,800
organization and how a certain
bunch of, you know, living

830
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:06,120
materials like cells decide to,
you know, communicate together

831
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:10,760
to create a certain system with
the plan.

832
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,280
As Mike Lemon said, that's
right, like living system or the

833
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:19,360
system to have a plan which was
not, you know, given from the

834
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:23,040
sky, but it was like carefully
developed and changed across,

835
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:24,640
you know, many errors and
trials.

836
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,480
It's like they say, well, the
eyes should be here, the nose

837
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,920
should be here.
That has a plan, you know, and

838
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,760
and if you have the things that
it's like, maybe you're not

839
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,240
going to survive because that
that's not not the plan.

840
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:49,800
So if you change the ontology
and you leave aside the classic

841
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:55,640
ontology of bricks of layers of
reality and how they kind of

842
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:59,160
like go on the top of each other
and you consider us being

843
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:07,120
fundamental, not the individual
bits, but how the very type of

844
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:08,960
exchanges.
Remember that what I said about

845
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,800
the sharedness, the very type of
exchange that you have between

846
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:17,160
bits that allow allows that
sharedness to be successful and

847
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:20,560
fruitful between the system and
whatever nourish the system.

848
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,160
And he considered that as being
fundamental.

849
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:27,360
Then you have a very different
autology and that will that will

850
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:31,360
explain, you know, your question
is like, well, that will

851
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:35,000
disappear when you die.
You really, you don't have that

852
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,760
anymore.
So you're different type of

853
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,880
there's going to be a massive
communication breach between,

854
00:53:42,240 --> 00:53:47,560
you know, those systems and
you're, you're going to just,

855
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,360
you know, transform it to
something else, but you're not

856
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:52,840
going to, you know, keep, keep
this up.

857
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,160
And, and I think that's, that's,
that's super important.

858
00:53:55,160 --> 00:54:01,680
I think this inside, I know it
sounds a bit, you know, subtle,

859
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:06,160
but I think it's super important
in especially for when we think

860
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,600
about creating artificial
systems.

861
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,240
Because if the ontology of
artificial system implies a very

862
00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:15,880
different type of communication
or a very different type of

863
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:20,120
relationship in between the
system, then it will give you a

864
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:25,480
different system, not the
conscious system that we have.

865
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:29,080
So we project our own
understanding into whatever the

866
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:33,560
system do or which I think it's.
Yeah, I think it's fair.

867
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,920
This is what humans do Andrew
Pomophiles automatically because

868
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:41,560
it's safer for us to look for
communication.

869
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:46,040
So will you It's it's it's very
safe and very important to to

870
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:51,560
keep the communication open.
So the because nature told you

871
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,080
very early on, you can't really
survive alone.

872
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:56,600
So you need to communicate with
others.

873
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:57,880
You need to be open to
communication.

874
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:02,600
So whatever you create and we
can project ways of replying

875
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:04,480
back to be able to communicate
with them.

876
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:09,400
For us, that safe nest is like
it's, it's familiar.

877
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:11,280
This is what we do with the
world, right?

878
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:16,320
It's like it's communication,
but that this means that we need

879
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,520
to be careful about ontology
that we're using.

880
00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:22,080
Yeah.
The, the reason why I brought

881
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:24,680
that up was because I think it
was a great, almost a great

882
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:26,920
segue to get you into talking
about that self.

883
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:31,000
And, and just because you've
done a lot of work on

884
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:34,320
depersonalization disorder as
well, especially through the

885
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,000
lens of active inference with
the, with people like Cole 1st

886
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:41,640
and Neil Seth, etcetera.
How does that type of work and

887
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,520
that model explain the dramatic
shifts in the sense of self and

888
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:46,720
agency that people report, for
example?

889
00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:50,600
And and why is this such a
powerful tool for exploring

890
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:52,280
something like the mind body
interface?

891
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,840
I think it's Evan.
So that's that's an important

892
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:59,360
question.
So in my head everything is

893
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:04,040
related that's so I'll try to,
you know, communicate my head

894
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:09,800
with the world.
So, so, you know, I did my

895
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,920
thesis on physicalism inqualia.
So that's what actually the, the

896
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,400
title of my thesis.
And as you know, as we

897
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:20,160
discussed, you know, one of the
big open questions in, in

898
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:23,400
philosophy of mind was like this
phenomenal aspect of conscious

899
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,160
experiences.
And one of the most famous

900
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,120
arguments is the zombie argument
by David Chalmers, where I said,

901
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:32,160
well, we can imagine that, you
know, we have a system, but

902
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,240
without, you know, the
phenomenal qualities.

903
00:56:34,240 --> 00:56:39,200
And it's like, without the what
the dislikeness of, of

904
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:46,800
experience.
But then I, I, I did a postdoc

905
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:50,080
in London.
They still come to neuroscience

906
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:55,560
and I did a project there with a
couple of like colleagues at ICM

907
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:03,840
and I worked on people that feel
disconnected from the body and

908
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,960
disconnected from themselves.
And interestingly enough, these

909
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:15,280
people report the experiences as
being machines, automata,

910
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:19,480
robots, zombies.
So basically when they are

911
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,720
disconnected from the self and
the body, they, they feel as if

912
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:27,400
they go through life as objects
in automatic manners.

913
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:31,760
They they function, but they
don't really, they're not really

914
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:36,640
present in the way my cat is,
you know, so my cat would be

915
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:40,520
like the opposite exactly for
that because, you know, because

916
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:45,000
my cat doesn't have the ability
to do detached from whatever

917
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,320
experience she has.
She doesn't have the choice but

918
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:50,080
to be fully present and
experiencing.

919
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:54,120
And she she has this like
present and that is completely

920
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:58,040
that's that's highly disrupted
in the personalization people.

921
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:03,880
So these are people that for
various reasons, either they've

922
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:08,800
been through through trauma or
they through radical changes in

923
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,640
their lives, like moving to new
country or speaking new

924
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:16,720
language, or they went through
radical perception experience

925
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:21,680
such as, I don't know,
recreational drug use or they

926
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:25,840
had accidents like car accidents
or as I said, massive trauma

927
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:34,720
like rape.
So when, when you are confronted

928
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:41,880
with something which is really
overwhelming, then I think that

929
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:46,480
there is a copy mechanism put in
place where you kind of like

930
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,640
disconnect the touch yourself,
the awareness and you say, Oh,

931
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:55,280
this is too awful, but that's OK
because it's not happening to

932
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:56,560
me.
It's happening to the outside,

933
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:58,520
the person who actually happens
to be me.

934
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,680
But that's just contingent.
It's not what there's not really

935
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:05,200
a connection there.
So I, they, this is how they

936
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:06,960
describe this.
And I'm seeing myself doing,

937
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:10,280
doing things, but I'm not really
there.

938
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:15,680
I'm not doing that, right?
So it's, it's a way to keep us

939
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:20,560
to keep people safe, right?
It's like it's, it's a way to,

940
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:27,200
you know, raised above, so to
speak, the messy, overwhelming

941
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,160
environment that I can't really
control anymore.

942
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:35,560
So if that happens, so you, you,
you know, have that state.

943
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:39,920
I mean, I don't know about you,
but I, this feeling is of

944
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:44,720
detachment of highly.
I mean, it happened to me when

945
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:48,440
I, when I'm massively jet lagged
and I travel to a country and I

946
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:50,880
have to give a talk, I can see
myself doing the talk.

947
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:55,560
It's like somebody else is
speaking, but I know what she's

948
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:57,200
doing, but it's not.
So I'm not really there.

949
00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:59,680
I was like, just like, do it on
automatic pilots, right?

950
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:03,840
But luckily with the rest, you
know, I, you know, I come back

951
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:07,160
and you know, the, the merge
happens.

952
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:12,080
But imagine that you are stuck
in that position and you can't

953
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:13,280
really go back.
What do you do?

954
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:17,120
You want to get back control
over that because the problem is

955
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:19,640
once you disconnect from the
bed.

956
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:23,120
Whether you like it or not, you
also disconnect from the good,

957
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:27,120
you know, from, you know, the
pleasure of life, like, like

958
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:29,040
love, like affection, like
anything.

959
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,800
So you're, you're actually can't
cherry pick say, well, actually,

960
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,240
I'm going to disconnect just
from the bad things, but I'm

961
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:37,120
going to keep the good things.
You, you disconnect from

962
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:39,680
everything.
And you know, after a while, you

963
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:44,560
kind of like crave that, that
feeling of connectedness that

964
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:47,920
you don't have any more.
And, and they describe that they

965
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:53,640
dramatically, that there is like
a veil between them and reality.

966
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:58,640
They like a like a fog.
Sometimes they describe their

967
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:02,640
being a bubble.
So there is no more clarity of

968
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:05,360
the engagement of with
environment.

969
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:16,200
So I would say for me, the
connection with the self and the

970
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:23,080
body is by the simple fact that
has such a dramatic consequences

971
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:25,360
when these are massively
disconnected.

972
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:30,480
It actually points to how
important it is in, you know, in

973
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:33,080
normal life, in typical life,
because when we, we take for

974
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:36,200
granted and one of the metaphors
that is typically used in

975
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:41,000
literature is that of the
transparency transparent window.

976
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:44,560
So suppose you have a
transparent window and it's so

977
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:47,240
transparent you, you don't, you
don't see there is a window

978
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:48,480
there.
I have the feeling that it's

979
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:53,320
actually, you know, the world
outside, but then there is a

980
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:56,200
crack in the window.
If there is a crack in the

981
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:59,880
window, then two things become
apparent. 1 is that there was

982
01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:01,960
something there when you thought
there was nothing there.

983
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:05,120
And the second is that you can't
really see outside anymore

984
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:08,160
because there are they know the
connection with reality is kind

985
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:11,160
of like blood.
So you need that kind of like

986
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:15,480
transparent of the self
experiences that allow you

987
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:19,040
almost like a transparent reach
to, you know, keep the flow, the

988
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:20,720
exchanges between you and the
environment.

989
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:23,960
And then the idea would be,
well, when you feel disconnected

990
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:30,320
from from yourself, you crave
connection with others, but or

991
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:32,320
with the world.
But because the world is for

992
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:36,680
such an overwhelming place, you
tend to go back to the self and

993
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:38,600
that paradoxically, it's like a
vicious circle.

994
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:42,160
And that we can't really, you
know, get in touch with the soul

995
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:44,840
because you, you don't have
connection with the world.

996
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:48,280
So and hence you, you're
functioning on the automatic

997
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:52,600
pilot.
This is very dramatic.

998
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:55,680
And people suffer in silence
from this.

999
01:02:55,680 --> 01:03:00,000
And it's, I would like to raise
awareness on this because, you

1000
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:03,480
know, if you see there's people
from the outside, so to speak,

1001
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:08,280
because they are functional,
you, you don't feel that, you

1002
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:11,520
know, there is something really,
you know, distressing happening

1003
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:14,360
to them.
But actually it is very, very

1004
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:19,760
distressing.
And and, and people get really

1005
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:24,200
unhappy and, and sometimes they
say paradoxical things, some

1006
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:28,760
something like I don't feel any
emotion that makes me so

1007
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:32,840
unhappy.
So this idea of openness and

1008
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:37,600
vulnerability, I think that's
kind of like gone and the cause

1009
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:41,080
is gone.
I think the very, let's say

1010
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,000
vulnerability humanity is gone
as well.

1011
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:47,760
And hence the feeling of
automatic in machines.

1012
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:50,560
Yeah.
And for me, that was like an

1013
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:54,240
interesting case of real life
case because I said, OK, thought

1014
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,520
experiments are cool.
And it's very powerful

1015
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:02,360
philosophical tools.
But, you know, we also have in

1016
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:07,080
reality, people that actually
have this experiences and they,

1017
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:09,800
they feel this way and they
describe yourself this way.

1018
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:13,800
And then we can actually look at
this experience in a careful way

1019
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:19,200
to see whether we can find ways
to, you know, help them like

1020
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:22,360
hands on fashion.
And that's, that's one branch of

1021
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:24,800
my work.
So I'm, I'm doing a couple of

1022
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:30,280
projects and the experimental
work on exactly this, like

1023
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:32,840
connection between self and body
and the personalisation.

1024
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:37,080
And I actually have another a
project where I look at the

1025
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:41,480
effect of interacting with
humans versus artificial mind

1026
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:45,960
and body on the human body and
cells sense of self.

1027
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:49,600
And my human participants are
divided into two groups.

1028
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:53,000
So groups like typical controls
and a group without feel

1029
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:55,840
disconnected from the body.
So I want to see, do people that

1030
01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:58,600
actually feel disconnected from
the body feel more comfortable

1031
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:01,000
when doing task with artificial
others, right.

1032
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:04,840
So it's almost like if you feel
like a machine, do you actually

1033
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:07,320
like to work with a machine more
than you actually like to with a

1034
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:09,400
human?
And what, what, what is the

1035
01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:13,320
consequences of that right in,
in, in, in society, because this

1036
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:15,960
is actually going to interact
more and more with machines.

1037
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:18,440
So, so we need to know what is
the, you know, what is the

1038
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:22,840
effect on, on us and our bodies?
And I'm doing this in like, in

1039
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:25,480
three different type of
artificial embodiments in the

1040
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:28,480
humanoid robots, virtual
reality, in chat bots, like AI.

1041
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:31,280
And I'm doing this in three
different cultures because, you

1042
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:34,920
know, people, we're talking
about cultures earlier.

1043
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:37,720
So like people interact with
robots very differently in

1044
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:41,040
Lisbon than in London than in
Hong Kong, than Tokyo.

1045
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:46,880
So it's, it's important to have
like gross cultural connection

1046
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:50,880
there, yeah.
Yeah, I, I think that, yeah, the

1047
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:53,040
diversity matters in that, in
that regard.

1048
01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:55,480
But I, I to go back to what you
were talking about earlier, and

1049
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:59,000
it's because even when I did my
work, I used to work in

1050
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:01,880
psychiatry and I used to work as
a psychiatry medical officer.

1051
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:04,440
And that was when I actually
wrote my dissertation and, and,

1052
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:07,560
and, and I focused so much when
I wrote about consciousness.

1053
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:10,120
I remember thinking that anyone
who talks about consciousness

1054
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:14,240
was not considering atypical
minds that say he's making such

1055
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:18,400
an uninformed decision and that
philosophers of minds should

1056
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,880
uniquely focus on psychiatric
disorder and vice versa.

1057
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:26,760
Psychiatrist should also their
their philosophy should be

1058
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:29,280
uniquely philosophy of mind
trying to understand this mind

1059
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:32,320
body connection.
So it's a very hugely symbiotic

1060
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:33,960
relationship that has to be
nurtured.

1061
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:37,000
And it's not to say that we use
them as test subjects, but it is

1062
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:39,960
to say that that's one of the
best sources of information.

1063
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:43,480
It's often neglected, I think in
in in philosophy of mind, yes.

1064
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:47,960
This is true.
So I remember a long time ago

1065
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:58,720
when I when I joined Twitter
Ixnow, I found an exchange there

1066
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:03,520
where it was like somebody's
tweeted because computational

1067
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:05,560
psychiatry became very trendy at
that time.

1068
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:08,880
So they say good luck to
psychiatrist, they will have to

1069
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:10,720
learn a statistic in
mathematics.

1070
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:14,480
And somebody tweeted a reply,
said, well, good luck to

1071
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:17,280
mathematicians because they'll
have to go to hospitals and

1072
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:20,680
speak to the patients.
Because.

1073
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:24,240
Yeah, we do need some data from
somewhere.

1074
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:26,680
You know, it's like, and how do
you get that data from?

1075
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:29,720
It's just like, well, you really
don't get off the armchair.

1076
01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:32,600
You go to the hospital, put the,
you know, and start talking with

1077
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:35,960
people to get like the
phenomenal experience, you know,

1078
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:38,840
the, the raw material out of it.
And then you can put the number

1079
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:41,560
in it, which is fine.
But you know, it's like, again,

1080
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:44,000
that divide is like, oh, give me
the numbers and I'll solve the

1081
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:46,000
problem.
I don't think it works right.

1082
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:48,480
And other way around this.
I don't think it's either

1083
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:50,680
because it cannot, it's
important to have the

1084
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:53,480
experience, but also you need
to, you know, quantify it in a

1085
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:55,040
way and to make it more
rigorous.

1086
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:58,680
So hence the disciplinary
efforts are important.

1087
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:02,680
And and as I said, it's like,
you know, philosophers should

1088
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:05,400
work with neurosciitis, with
computational people, with

1089
01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:08,160
psychiatrists and people with
lived experiences.

1090
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:14,960
Because in my experience, I
actually work a lot with people

1091
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:17,640
with lived experience in from
charities and things.

1092
01:08:19,439 --> 01:08:23,520
There is no, nobody can tell
better than themselves how they

1093
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:27,640
actually feel.
I mean, think of you, suppose

1094
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:31,200
you feel something, hopefully
not, but let's say you have a

1095
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:34,000
problem in the elbow or
something and feel it now and

1096
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:38,120
it's kind of like bothering you.
And you go to the doctor And

1097
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:40,960
then the first thing you'd say
is like you describe your

1098
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:43,560
experience of like the elbow.
And then the doctor take us from

1099
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:46,479
there and puts in all sorts of
machines to see what's wrong

1100
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:50,720
with your elbow.
But the first entrance and point

1101
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:54,399
of solve problem solving is
yeah, you communicating

1102
01:08:54,399 --> 01:08:58,439
experiences of my elbow hurts.
And then you can say what

1103
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:00,600
actually is more on that side
and that side and everything

1104
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:02,600
else.
So and that cannot be

1105
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:06,120
disregarded.
And no matter how technical and

1106
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:08,439
geeky we're getting with the
computational modeling.

1107
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:11,439
And it's like the how, because
you feel it right away.

1108
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:16,279
As soon as you get sick and and
you need to go to the doctor and

1109
01:09:16,279 --> 01:09:19,479
you need to explain how you
feel, then you get this like I

1110
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:21,520
cannot come there, which is
like, here is my model.

1111
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:23,600
I think this is what is wrong
with me.

1112
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:28,520
It's like you need to, you need
to access the world of others

1113
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:32,200
through the sharedness of
communication, expression that

1114
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:34,279
you have for, of your
experiences.

1115
01:09:34,279 --> 01:09:37,399
And that comes necessarily from
your subjective perspective,

1116
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:41,680
which can be wrong.
Let's say your, your, your, your

1117
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:44,319
feel here.
But let's say you have some

1118
01:09:44,319 --> 01:09:49,160
neurological condition and
actually your pain problem is

1119
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:52,399
somewhere else in your body.
So it's, there is nothing wrong

1120
01:09:52,399 --> 01:09:54,920
with your hand.
But let's say you have a tumor,

1121
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:59,560
Hopefully not.
But you know, it's like, let's I

1122
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:01,760
touch a mood.
Yeah, I'm talking for myself

1123
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:04,640
too.
So that that that was my, my

1124
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:09,400
example wants to say it's just
like we cannot, we cannot get

1125
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:12,560
rid of experiences and
especially and because we take

1126
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:16,880
it for granted and we realise
how important they are when

1127
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:19,160
things go wrong.
Yes, definitely.

1128
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:21,600
And I think even when I when I
interact with patients and you

1129
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:24,240
and you understand that
phenomenological lived

1130
01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:26,800
experience their, their
expression of what's going on

1131
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:29,400
versus just merely X raying the
arm, for example.

1132
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:30,360
I mean, there's so much more to
it.

1133
01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:32,800
The the recovery process, what's
going to happen in their life,

1134
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:34,960
what's going to happen can they
write to in the future?

1135
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:38,080
There's so many different things
to think about and there's even

1136
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:39,920
a field in psychiatry, it's
called phenomenological

1137
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:43,320
psychopathology that focuses on
that Cole Aspers and a lot of

1138
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:46,680
others, Miller Ponte, etcetera.
But even in your work, when you

1139
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:51,400
when you explore things like the
the self, other boundaries that

1140
01:10:51,400 --> 01:10:54,160
emerged through touch, for
example, or embodied

1141
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:57,720
interaction, and these types of
things show us how the social

1142
01:10:57,720 --> 01:11:00,840
cognition it could, it could
point towards the small

1143
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:03,240
collective and extended forms of
a consciousness.

1144
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:06,720
Because when we communicate to
each other right now, even we're

1145
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:10,040
basically extending this, we're
growing together.

1146
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:12,880
Basically there's this nurturing
of an embodied cognition

1147
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:15,520
occurring together.
What, what, what are your

1148
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:17,040
thoughts on that?
I think you've done some work on

1149
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:19,320
that as well.
I can't remember one of the Co

1150
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:22,040
collaborators but.
Yeah, yeah.

1151
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:29,240
So, so again, going back to this
idea that if you start with the

1152
01:11:29,480 --> 01:11:34,640
other centric perspective, we
consciousness science is

1153
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:38,080
extremely biased towards vision
perception.

1154
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:42,720
And it's like tons of work on,
you know, visual awareness of a

1155
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:45,640
dot on the street and how I can
report that.

1156
01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:49,920
But if you go back to the roots,
the humbler roots, then you

1157
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:52,800
realise that you relate to the
world and you need to sample the

1158
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:56,360
world and you to understand the
world through experience.

1159
01:11:56,360 --> 01:11:59,880
Gee, as my grandmother say, way
before you're actually able to,

1160
01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:03,320
you know, look at yourself in
the mirror, understand that

1161
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:05,040
whatever he is a mirror, that's
yourself.

1162
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:09,280
You need to solve the big
problem of Lifeway before you

1163
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:13,760
can, it can, you know, shift
back from the third person

1164
01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:17,000
perspective from yourself or to
have visual awareness.

1165
01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:22,040
So this means that we do have
census that we call, I would

1166
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:25,680
like to call the bridging census
and I have a paper coming on on

1167
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:28,120
that.
This is how we call them the

1168
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:29,880
bridging census.
And I want to say something

1169
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:32,720
radical about it.
I want to say that we have

1170
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:38,240
senses that are breaching in the
sense like they are there all

1171
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:47,440
the time, like, you know, touch,
like the sense of inside the

1172
01:12:47,440 --> 01:12:50,000
body and also the smell.
No faction.

1173
01:12:50,320 --> 01:12:56,160
So this are senses that are
supposed to bridge you with the

1174
01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:59,640
world.
And I want to push against the

1175
01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:04,400
idea that the self is
necessarily related just with

1176
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:08,480
the receptive processing.
I mean, it's, it's it's almost

1177
01:13:08,480 --> 01:13:13,760
like a localisation chauvinist.
I think that's something I just

1178
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:16,240
invented now.
It's like it's not because it's

1179
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:19,760
just inside locally situated.
That's it's most important

1180
01:13:20,480 --> 01:13:24,000
without the constant exchange
that have through the skin or,

1181
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:28,400
you know, respiration and and
the smell, you're not going to

1182
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:31,680
get very full.
It's been like, you know, with

1183
01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:34,200
the with the heart.
So I think it's a combination of

1184
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:35,600
those.
So you need those changes

1185
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:39,160
fundamentally.
So touch is not tactile

1186
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:42,920
expensive or factual are not
just like, let's say, like the

1187
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:46,560
poor relatives of the selfhood
to sell, On the contrary, to

1188
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:49,400
sell to sell the things that
actually do the heavy lifting in

1189
01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:52,680
our, you know, and we we just
like take them for granted

1190
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:54,280
because they are there all the
time.

1191
01:13:54,760 --> 01:14:02,400
And and hence this idea that,
you know, perhaps the senses

1192
01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:05,600
that were attenuated more,
they're actually, they're also

1193
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:08,800
the senses that are actually
closer to the self, right.

1194
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:14,000
And we know this for instance,
like if I put my perfume, I

1195
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:15,600
happy to eat very quickly to my
perfume.

1196
01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:21,520
Yeah, but even if I go into a
tube or something, people smell

1197
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:24,000
my perfume and they'll say, ah,
it's like, I don't like this,

1198
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:26,640
but I don't smell because it's
my I attenuate this.

1199
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:28,920
Yeah.
And I think this is this.

1200
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:31,880
We're doing this all the time.
And why we're doing this is

1201
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:34,840
because we process this in
background, like transparently,

1202
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:36,320
right?
We don't really pay attention.

1203
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:39,880
Yeah.
Because we need to focus on the

1204
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:41,920
world and.
And our job is to engage with

1205
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:45,840
the world, not not to.
Yeah, sub centrist all the time.

1206
01:14:46,120 --> 01:14:48,200
You can't really survive with
yourself obsessed.

1207
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:50,800
You're doing it because you
can't survive alone.

1208
01:14:51,240 --> 01:14:52,880
So dismiss that.
You need to engage with the

1209
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:55,920
world all the time.
So you put the things that

1210
01:14:55,920 --> 01:14:58,360
outside in the in the
background, the things that are

1211
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:03,600
there doing the job for you in
order for you to focus.

1212
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:05,920
But I would say that it's not
because they're in the

1213
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:07,360
background, they're not
important.

1214
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:12,880
So I have a paper with a
brilliant student of mine, teams

1215
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:20,080
in London, and the title of the
paper is Self Controlled by

1216
01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:24,080
Letting Go.
And we want to show show that

1217
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:28,720
actually what we call the
control or the agency is not

1218
01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:30,680
just the ability to control
actively.

1219
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:33,840
Whatever is happening in the
world is the ability to

1220
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:40,880
correctly know what to disregard
and what control.

1221
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:44,760
And that balance will give you
an accurate sense of agency and

1222
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:45,640
control.
Yeah.

1223
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:50,400
And the, the shift on the focus
is like it, it brings into the

1224
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:56,840
spotlight the neglected, humble,
you know, poor relative senses

1225
01:15:56,840 --> 01:16:01,040
like, like the smell and touch
that we kind of like neglect and

1226
01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:03,320
put it in the background.
And I think that's that's a

1227
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:06,040
pretty important.
Even other things like

1228
01:16:06,040 --> 01:16:09,840
proprioception, Thermo like so
all these other things we just

1229
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:12,080
completely neglect.
We forget about it as if it

1230
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:14,760
never exists.
Once that gets knocked out,

1231
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:16,920
you're completely out.
I mean, you can lose your vision

1232
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:19,840
and function and we're so
obsessed with vision as a.

1233
01:16:20,280 --> 01:16:23,520
Yeah, as I said, interestingly
enough, people with the

1234
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:30,320
personalization, they have high
disruptions of the stimulus

1235
01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:33,120
system about the balanced
movement, the body in the world,

1236
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:35,960
right.
Yeah, you see, that's actually

1237
01:16:35,960 --> 01:16:40,440
quite fascinating alienly but
and one of my favorite papers

1238
01:16:40,440 --> 01:16:44,520
that you wrote was the no body
problem really into that one,

1239
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:48,400
and I mean provocatively,
obviously asks the if a body is

1240
01:16:48,400 --> 01:16:52,120
needed for intelligence or
selfhood and contrast biological

1241
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:56,120
system, finite death bound
constraints with AI as apparent

1242
01:16:56,120 --> 01:16:58,840
eternity, which I found quite
interesting.

1243
01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:02,520
How does this nobody problem, or
does nobody angle challenge our

1244
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:05,120
assumptions about what makes the
system truly smart?

1245
01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:08,760
And why is death such a key
driver for qualitative

1246
01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:10,720
information processing and
living beings?

1247
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:13,640
Yeah.
So that's thank you.

1248
01:17:15,160 --> 01:17:20,000
That's a, an interesting and an
important question and a tricky

1249
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:22,960
1.
So I still need to think about

1250
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:26,200
it carefully, how I want to
spell it out, but by in a

1251
01:17:26,200 --> 01:17:28,800
rigorous moment.
But what I want to say is that

1252
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:35,160
the, the end, because there is
an end.

1253
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:39,520
There is an end that's like I, I
want to say like Rumi, you know,

1254
01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:43,800
in the, I want to reply with a
poem, I want to say what I want

1255
01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:48,560
to say is like, because there is
an end, like a like end point.

1256
01:17:50,080 --> 01:17:53,640
There's an end like a meaning.
So the very notion of meaning is

1257
01:17:53,640 --> 01:17:58,600
created by the existence of the
end that should be avoided.

1258
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:00,760
Without that, there is no
meaning.

1259
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:05,680
So it's a radical point that I'm
taking saying, well, systems

1260
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:10,480
that don't have an end don't
care and they cannot process

1261
01:18:10,480 --> 01:18:12,640
meaning.
And the way we process meaning

1262
01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:16,360
because their ontology doesn't
depend on that.

1263
01:18:17,480 --> 01:18:20,400
So their ontology depending on
artefact, it's like how many

1264
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:26,800
plugs I have, how many chips and
how smart is my code, yeah, to

1265
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:29,880
put me, you know, to function in
a certain way.

1266
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:33,600
But we as living system, we
don't have that.

1267
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:38,840
We have a very different
ontology and our ontology is

1268
01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:44,600
almost created as a resistance
tools that, that that end.

1269
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:48,080
And it is the very resistant,
the very act of resistance that

1270
01:18:48,080 --> 01:18:51,160
creates what we call a life and
meaning.

1271
01:18:51,160 --> 01:18:55,480
And the intelligent thing to do
when you're a living system is

1272
01:18:55,480 --> 01:19:00,720
to balance carefully your
energetic resources to allow you

1273
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:06,240
to keep that goal for long as
possible.

1274
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:10,120
And with, you know, be careful
with your resources because, you

1275
01:19:10,120 --> 01:19:12,040
know, you receive a certain
amount of resource.

1276
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:15,360
Actually, I'm sharing this with
you that I'm shared with my

1277
01:19:15,360 --> 01:19:18,400
students and they, and they all
laugh when I'm telling them.

1278
01:19:18,400 --> 01:19:21,240
It's like I said, well, my, my,
my favorite philosopher is

1279
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:26,280
Taylor Swift because she said
she gave me, I mean, she said

1280
01:19:26,280 --> 01:19:28,840
something that, you know, stayed
with me a bit like my

1281
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:30,960
grandmother said.
It's like, think of your

1282
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:33,480
energetic resources like luxury
item.

1283
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:35,320
Not everyone can afford it,
right?

1284
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:38,360
It's like, because it's limited,
you know, if you, if you spend

1285
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:42,240
it, you know, it's like at a
certain point you just like, you

1286
01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:44,960
know, face the wall and say oops
and that will be the end, you

1287
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:47,560
know, and you don't want that.
So if you are intelligent

1288
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:51,240
system, you need to keep that in
mind, that energetic pool

1289
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:57,200
limited and instead of like
trying to ignore it, push it

1290
01:19:57,200 --> 01:20:03,880
away or scramble, you know, to
do something else is I think the

1291
01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:06,120
beauty of it.
It's it's a bit like the stave

1292
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:08,160
skin approach that I'm taking
here.

1293
01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:13,840
The beauty of it is like to
befriended and to do the best

1294
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:16,800
way you can with the resources
that you have, to do beautiful

1295
01:20:16,800 --> 01:20:19,640
things with the time and
energetic resource you have here

1296
01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:24,720
and now in the present.
And hopefully you're lucky

1297
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:27,560
enough in that some catastrophic
stuff will happen to which is

1298
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:29,880
entirely up to because you can
do all that.

1299
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:34,240
And then I know somebody crashed
in the street or there's a war

1300
01:20:34,240 --> 01:20:38,080
and then, you know, everybody's
like in in danger.

1301
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:42,280
So, but I think that that our
small level, I would say is that

1302
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:50,000
sorry, sorry about that.
At the small level is what we

1303
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:59,280
really need is to be friend and
because that will give us more

1304
01:20:59,280 --> 01:21:03,680
meaning that that what I I would
I would.

1305
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:07,240
I love the titles of you because
I've been with the neuroimmune

1306
01:21:07,240 --> 01:21:09,440
stuff.
The I think it was the brain is

1307
01:21:09,440 --> 01:21:11,960
not mental and then the Nobody
problems.

1308
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:14,040
The best titles?
Yeah.

1309
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:15,320
I was.
Very.

1310
01:21:15,320 --> 01:21:17,320
I was fundamentally linked very
well as well.

1311
01:21:17,320 --> 01:21:20,000
Sorry, you were saying?
I was a journalist in previous

1312
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:24,800
life, so I I like titles.
And I think it's it's great

1313
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:29,120
because I mean, you emphasize
anticipation and allostasis as

1314
01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:32,920
ways finite system save energy
against impending homeostasis

1315
01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:35,360
failure.
And so you can sort of see how

1316
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:38,920
things like the nobody problem
or the brain is not mental paper

1317
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:43,120
link because it, it sort of ties
into those prenatal nested self

1318
01:21:43,120 --> 01:21:47,600
regulation systems and and it
reveals things like the origins

1319
01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:51,080
of mind, something inherently
tied to bodily survival goals,

1320
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:53,000
which which I think is pretty
fascinating.

1321
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:56,960
Thank you.
Yeah, yeah.

1322
01:21:57,000 --> 01:22:05,120
So I'm, I'm trying to build like
a coherent worldview from this

1323
01:22:05,120 --> 01:22:09,840
perspective.
And, and I, I had this idea of a

1324
01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:16,400
book.
So I'm do you know the French

1325
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:19,240
philosopher Rene Descartes,
which is, you know, the mind

1326
01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:22,360
body problem and the mind body
distinction.

1327
01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:25,440
And in French, if you know the
need to, Rene becomes a female

1328
01:22:25,440 --> 01:22:27,560
first name.
So Rene Descartes.

1329
01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:32,000
So like Rene and Bridget Jones.
So I don't know how to pronounce

1330
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:34,520
his last.
Name Zellweger Renee Zellweger.

1331
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:39,800
Yeah, So I imagine I'm a
philosopher, so I can I can do

1332
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:42,360
this.
So I there are some advantages.

1333
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:46,360
Obey a floss.
So imagine a parallel universe

1334
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:51,720
to ours where women are allowed
to go to university and to go to

1335
01:22:51,720 --> 01:22:55,080
school, and the philosophy since
the dawn of time, since the

1336
01:22:55,080 --> 01:22:57,320
humanity, you know, becomes
humanity.

1337
01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:02,160
And in this parallel world, we
have a French philosopher called

1338
01:23:02,160 --> 01:23:06,560
Renee Descartes to me, and she's
also obsessed with the mind body

1339
01:23:06,560 --> 01:23:08,240
problem, except that she's
pregnant.

1340
01:23:09,480 --> 01:23:15,040
So I want to rethink the
classical philosophical

1341
01:23:15,040 --> 01:23:19,600
conundrums, but through the
perspective of embodied,

1342
01:23:20,840 --> 01:23:25,880
embodied person that actually
carries another body in her

1343
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:29,080
body.
So how philosophy would be

1344
01:23:29,080 --> 01:23:33,080
different if we take that
perspective as being like the

1345
01:23:33,080 --> 01:23:36,240
fundamental starting point of
all enquiries that we have.

1346
01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:39,840
And I, I want to make it like,
like funny for a person now and

1347
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:44,040
then it was like, there is some
collapse happening and one of

1348
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:45,920
the world's can see into each
other.

1349
01:23:45,920 --> 01:23:49,480
So it's like one of them ends up
in one of the other words.

1350
01:23:49,480 --> 01:23:53,840
And, and, and then, you know,
put the finger in, in some, you

1351
01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:58,520
know, funny way on, on something
that's hopefully, you know,

1352
01:23:58,520 --> 01:24:02,240
makes us make us realize that we
take some things for granted

1353
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:07,840
and, and we shouldn't because
some things are, are, are really

1354
01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:10,120
important.
And, and if we really want to

1355
01:24:10,120 --> 01:24:14,320
understand who we are as
students, you cannot close the

1356
01:24:14,320 --> 01:24:17,480
eyes and just like ignore half
of the humanity.

1357
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:21,920
It's like you cannot do that.
It's like you, you shot yourself

1358
01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:24,160
in the legs.
So you just like, you know,

1359
01:24:24,160 --> 01:24:25,960
which is like, you've become
very narrow.

1360
01:24:26,320 --> 01:24:28,200
And it's the same with different
cultures.

1361
01:24:28,200 --> 01:24:32,760
I mean, it's like you cannot
take just like one single way of

1362
01:24:32,760 --> 01:24:35,560
looking at things from one
single culture as being like

1363
01:24:35,560 --> 01:24:42,640
the, you know, solution to
whatever, you know, the mind is

1364
01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:48,200
or the body is.
I, I, I think we, we do share

1365
01:24:48,200 --> 01:24:53,800
with living systems like cats
and, you know, fungi and, and

1366
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:57,240
trees.
One big problem that is actually

1367
01:24:57,240 --> 01:25:00,840
thrown upon us.
Here's another thing I like to

1368
01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:03,080
tell to my students.
And when I'm telling this, I can

1369
01:25:03,080 --> 01:25:07,960
see the guys like, oh, oh, oops.
And tell him it's like, nobody

1370
01:25:07,960 --> 01:25:12,880
asks you to sign a consent form
to be alive here and now in this

1371
01:25:12,880 --> 01:25:14,960
particular form, right?
It's like nobody asks you

1372
01:25:14,960 --> 01:25:18,160
permission.
You're just like show up.

1373
01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:22,320
It's like, and you have to kind
of like, you know, adapt to the

1374
01:25:22,320 --> 01:25:24,920
flow and understand what is
going on here.

1375
01:25:25,240 --> 01:25:28,360
And, and, and, and I think this
is something we share with other

1376
01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:33,080
living system in a way, me
personally, that makes me feel

1377
01:25:33,600 --> 01:25:36,560
held, right?
It's like I, I don't have, I

1378
01:25:36,720 --> 01:25:41,360
don't have this like special
place from outside where I, I

1379
01:25:41,360 --> 01:25:43,440
need to control everything and
understand this.

1380
01:25:43,440 --> 01:25:45,560
But On the contrary, I feel
like, Oh yeah.

1381
01:25:45,560 --> 01:25:49,680
So this is like a big journey.
We are all in this together

1382
01:25:49,680 --> 01:25:51,280
somehow.
We have some connecting.

1383
01:25:51,280 --> 01:25:54,960
So it's like when we have a big
problem.

1384
01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:57,760
But that's a very ideal of
sharedness.

1385
01:25:57,760 --> 01:26:00,760
I think that's super important
and we should keep that to life.

1386
01:26:00,920 --> 01:26:05,240
The fact that we do share this
with other living systems and we

1387
01:26:05,240 --> 01:26:09,120
are not special in that size.
So we don't have any special

1388
01:26:09,120 --> 01:26:13,040
rights to, you know, endanger
everything just from our

1389
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:17,400
anthropocentric a very selfish
perspective because we were like

1390
01:26:17,400 --> 01:26:20,920
it or not, we shutting ourselves
in the legs because whether we

1391
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:24,720
are aware of not of the fact
that we are sharing, we do share

1392
01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:26,680
the things with our other
system.

1393
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:30,680
And I think this is the insight
that you can have from a female

1394
01:26:30,680 --> 01:26:35,680
Rene Descartes perspective,
because if you already have the

1395
01:26:35,680 --> 01:26:38,520
experience of Co embodiment as
fundamental fact of life, you're

1396
01:26:38,520 --> 01:26:41,320
in say, actually can't really
solve this by my own name.

1397
01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:46,280
I need to, you know, negotiate
and exchange and you know, be

1398
01:26:46,280 --> 01:26:49,640
careful and not just like hoard.
It's like me.

1399
01:26:49,640 --> 01:26:55,120
I am myself and forget about the
adverse because it's not working

1400
01:26:55,120 --> 01:26:57,360
this way.
Have you thought about a name

1401
01:26:57,360 --> 01:26:59,560
for the book yet, Anna?
Or are you still just working on

1402
01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:06,520
titles mentally?
I I need to think, but I still

1403
01:27:06,520 --> 01:27:09,200
need to think.
I don't, I don't have a definite

1404
01:27:09,200 --> 01:27:12,120
title yet, but I I, I don't have
ready to cover.

1405
01:27:12,920 --> 01:27:15,640
OK, well, either way, titles
tend to change.

1406
01:27:15,640 --> 01:27:18,640
As publishers and people say
when you get to the people often

1407
01:27:18,640 --> 01:27:22,280
don't end up with their title.
They often wanted to.

1408
01:27:22,360 --> 01:27:25,040
But I think in one case, the way
you've named your paper so far,

1409
01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:27,200
you'd probably make a a good
title maker.

1410
01:27:27,360 --> 01:27:32,600
You'd be a good title maker.
Yeah, I need to think.

1411
01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:36,640
But the Rene Descartes does does
just my my character.

1412
01:27:37,640 --> 01:27:39,600
It's it fits well because I'm
French too.

1413
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:41,760
So I was telling, hey, here is
Rene.

1414
01:27:42,880 --> 01:27:45,800
And, you know, the French women
are troublemakers like Simone de

1415
01:27:45,800 --> 01:27:47,320
Beauvoir.
And everything is like, hey,

1416
01:27:47,320 --> 01:27:52,840
it's like, let's you know, I'll
face the problem and CEO.

1417
01:27:52,920 --> 01:27:55,080
But because we do actually have
a problem.

1418
01:27:55,440 --> 01:27:58,080
Yeah, Yeah.
I like the when you mention the

1419
01:27:58,080 --> 01:28:02,040
consent form for existence.
It also reminds me of the flip

1420
01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:05,520
side when we talk about creating
artificial intelligence or

1421
01:28:05,520 --> 01:28:08,400
trying to create AI, or that's
AGI general intelligence or

1422
01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:10,640
conscious beings.
And we often forget about the

1423
01:28:10,640 --> 01:28:13,120
fact that every time we have
kids, we, we do exactly the same

1424
01:28:13,120 --> 01:28:15,480
thing without truly thinking
about those philosophical

1425
01:28:15,480 --> 01:28:18,200
consequences of creating a
conscious entity.

1426
01:28:18,480 --> 01:28:22,440
So it's so we don't even sign a,
a, a form to sort of declare the

1427
01:28:22,440 --> 01:28:27,520
fact that we are good enough to
manufacture a conscious being,

1428
01:28:28,400 --> 01:28:31,000
just the same way we don't sign
a consent form to come into this

1429
01:28:31,000 --> 01:28:32,840
life.
So it's it's pretty strange in

1430
01:28:32,840 --> 01:28:40,360
this universe that we live in.
Yeah, well, but you know, I know

1431
01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:44,840
it sounds a bit like whoa, whoa.
But you know, sometimes, you

1432
01:28:44,840 --> 01:28:47,840
know, going back to my my my
paper with team was like the

1433
01:28:48,480 --> 01:28:52,640
self-control by letting go.
I think that the without

1434
01:28:52,640 --> 01:28:54,600
mystery, there cannot be
knowledge.

1435
01:28:55,480 --> 01:29:00,320
So it's like, you know, we like
knowledge and I, we like to find

1436
01:29:00,320 --> 01:29:03,600
out things and what we're doing
here and now is like science and

1437
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:04,880
philosophy and knowledge and
everything.

1438
01:29:04,880 --> 01:29:08,000
But we are doing this because
there is a mystery and there's

1439
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:10,920
things to be found.
Yeah, if there is no problem,

1440
01:29:10,920 --> 01:29:13,800
there is no solution.
So this podcast doesn't exist

1441
01:29:13,800 --> 01:29:15,400
without the fundamental problem
that.

1442
01:29:16,680 --> 01:29:19,960
I think, I think mysteries are
good in that sense.

1443
01:29:19,960 --> 01:29:25,960
So it's like mystery or or you
know, enable, enable us to, you

1444
01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:27,760
know, search, search for the
light and.

1445
01:29:30,280 --> 01:29:32,600
I, I fundamentally agree.
I think what we know is a drop

1446
01:29:33,200 --> 01:29:35,760
and what we don't is the ocean.
So similar to what you were

1447
01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:39,760
talking about the waves earlier,
but there's so much to know, but

1448
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:41,440
there's so many.
We just keep putting that little

1449
01:29:41,440 --> 01:29:44,360
bit of a ladder piece trying to
cross a bridge that's just an

1450
01:29:44,360 --> 01:29:48,960
eternal ocean acknowledge but.
This is why it's so important to

1451
01:29:49,000 --> 01:29:51,080
focus on the present.
Exactly.

1452
01:29:51,080 --> 01:29:53,520
I mean we can't be chasing those
that knowledge all the time.

1453
01:29:53,520 --> 01:29:55,120
At some point you have to
appreciate the knowledge you

1454
01:29:55,120 --> 01:29:57,200
currently have and this
experience.

1455
01:29:57,760 --> 01:30:01,600
So there is no, there is no
absolute knowledge, Yeah.

1456
01:30:02,160 --> 01:30:05,240
There's no fun radicality,
something we all even things

1457
01:30:05,240 --> 01:30:07,280
like teleology.
Even when I started this

1458
01:30:07,280 --> 01:30:11,040
podcast, because I initially
started off while working in

1459
01:30:11,040 --> 01:30:13,400
psychiatry writing about
psychiatry's defence for

1460
01:30:13,400 --> 01:30:16,080
illusionism as a theory of
consciousness, which is, which

1461
01:30:16,080 --> 01:30:18,080
is the fundamental view I had
prior to that, it was

1462
01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:22,800
emergentism and prior to the
very materialist views of

1463
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:25,080
consciousness.
And then starting the podcast

1464
01:30:25,080 --> 01:30:28,160
and doing the dissertation in
itself changed over time.

1465
01:30:29,040 --> 01:30:31,800
And I still, as I often say,
people people tend to hate the

1466
01:30:31,800 --> 01:30:34,480
fact that I say this, but my
views have changed over time

1467
01:30:34,520 --> 01:30:35,600
and.
That's.

1468
01:30:36,120 --> 01:30:37,600
Good, exactly.
That's how I feel too.

1469
01:30:38,400 --> 01:30:41,040
But, but at this point, I'm so
agnostic about my views on

1470
01:30:41,040 --> 01:30:43,160
consciousness because of how
many different theories I've

1471
01:30:43,160 --> 01:30:45,880
explored and there's so many
different convincing ones.

1472
01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:48,880
I'm still not sold by many, but
I'm very intrigued by so many.

1473
01:30:49,160 --> 01:30:54,760
But it's, I still remember how
much, how firm, like how much I

1474
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:56,920
believed might be when I wrote
that dissertation.

1475
01:30:56,920 --> 01:30:59,160
And it was because interacting
with psychiatric patients, I

1476
01:30:59,160 --> 01:31:00,920
could tell the same thing like
where you spoke about

1477
01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:04,360
depersonalization disorder and
things like code out syndrome

1478
01:31:04,360 --> 01:31:06,280
where someone thinks they
fundamentally did.

1479
01:31:07,080 --> 01:31:09,560
Someone can tell differences
between time, etcetera.

1480
01:31:10,240 --> 01:31:13,920
I remember writing about it more
not to claim that consciousness

1481
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:17,160
doesn't exist, but rather that
the way we talk about

1482
01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:19,520
consciousness is the problem.
And I think Keith Frankish does

1483
01:31:19,520 --> 01:31:21,600
the same thing.
It's more it's, it's a lot of

1484
01:31:21,600 --> 01:31:24,600
it's more the intuition pumps of
dissecting other theories of

1485
01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:27,680
consciousness.
And it's a very helpful tool to

1486
01:31:27,760 --> 01:31:30,880
understand or breakdown other
theories of consciousness.

1487
01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:32,680
And that's what I think Dennett
did as well.

1488
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:36,160
It was a great way to sort of
break, to nitpick in the sense

1489
01:31:36,160 --> 01:31:38,840
that you said earlier, it's that
it's not this ethereal thing

1490
01:31:38,840 --> 01:31:40,280
that we're in.
It's a process.

1491
01:31:40,280 --> 01:31:43,360
It's perhaps something more like
you said, like an adverb or a a

1492
01:31:43,360 --> 01:31:46,120
verb continuously doing
something rather than this one

1493
01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:48,800
thing we're going to pinpoint
one day with a neural correlate

1494
01:31:48,800 --> 01:31:50,280
and just be like, OK, cool,
that's it.

1495
01:31:50,680 --> 01:31:54,080
Yeah, Yeah.
No, I, I don't think, I don't

1496
01:31:54,080 --> 01:31:59,680
think this that localization
will work.

1497
01:31:59,720 --> 01:32:02,480
And for the same reason I said
about the self as well.

1498
01:32:02,480 --> 01:32:07,240
I don't think that localization,
chauvinism, it will work.

1499
01:32:07,400 --> 01:32:11,640
I I don't think the self is
inside the body and I don't

1500
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:14,480
think the consciousness is
inside the skull.

1501
01:32:14,800 --> 01:32:17,200
Exactly.
And, and even when I read that

1502
01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:20,000
paper back, a lot of a lot of
times I can read it back and

1503
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:24,120
sort of almost convert that into
a psychiatrist defence for ban

1504
01:32:24,120 --> 01:32:28,200
psychism paper because it's so
easy to, because I'm not talking

1505
01:32:28,200 --> 01:32:31,760
about the entity in itself.
It's easy to apply both.

1506
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:33,840
And I use a lot of Kofristen's
work in it as well.

1507
01:32:33,840 --> 01:32:36,280
And I know you guys collaborate
as well and you use a lot of

1508
01:32:36,280 --> 01:32:37,960
their ideas.
But yeah, active inference was a

1509
01:32:37,960 --> 01:32:40,840
big part of it.
I need to reread that actually,

1510
01:32:40,840 --> 01:32:43,200
and maybe perhaps post it out
with some different, some

1511
01:32:43,200 --> 01:32:46,400
changes for people.
But it to, to get back to your

1512
01:32:46,400 --> 01:32:49,800
work, which is far more
fascinating just by the way you

1513
01:32:49,800 --> 01:32:53,880
even collaborated Mike Levin,
who we, we spoke about earlier.

1514
01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:56,520
You guys worked together many
different things, basal

1515
01:32:56,520 --> 01:32:59,080
cognition being one of them.
I remember he was.

1516
01:32:59,320 --> 01:33:03,800
He also spoke about the fact
that at some point, because of

1517
01:33:03,800 --> 01:33:06,640
diverse intelligence and this
field growing with so many

1518
01:33:06,640 --> 01:33:12,040
unfamiliar substrates that show
so many signs of cognition, How

1519
01:33:12,040 --> 01:33:15,400
does viewing cognition as a
multi scale web, not just

1520
01:33:15,400 --> 01:33:21,560
neural, expand our exploration
of reality, especially when

1521
01:33:21,560 --> 01:33:24,960
bridging biological life to
something like AI hybrids?

1522
01:33:27,400 --> 01:33:31,320
Yes.
So I, as you know, I'm a big fan

1523
01:33:31,320 --> 01:33:34,600
of Mike Levin's work.
And I think what's doing is

1524
01:33:34,600 --> 01:33:37,480
really, really important, really
revolutionary.

1525
01:33:37,480 --> 01:33:40,920
And he's like a brilliant mind.
And each time we're having

1526
01:33:40,920 --> 01:33:43,440
conversation, I'm like, you
know.

1527
01:33:43,880 --> 01:33:47,000
Yeah, You often leave thinking
like, Oh my God, I remember the

1528
01:33:47,000 --> 01:33:48,800
first time I spoke to him.
That's kind of when those

1529
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:50,680
illusories of tendency starts.
It's.

1530
01:33:50,800 --> 01:33:53,440
Not like I should.
I should wear those like my as,

1531
01:33:53,440 --> 01:33:54,680
like my grandma said.
Wait a minute.

1532
01:33:54,680 --> 01:33:56,680
Let me think.
You know, it's like Kirstein.

1533
01:33:57,680 --> 01:34:00,000
Like when will it?
There's always a mic drop,

1534
01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:02,520
momented mic, mic drop moment.
I like that.

1535
01:34:02,520 --> 01:34:03,800
Actually, that's kind of that's
a pun.

1536
01:34:05,200 --> 01:34:07,280
Yeah, Wait a minute.
Let me think.

1537
01:34:07,280 --> 01:34:10,880
So I have lots of those moments
when I, when I, you know,

1538
01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:16,800
exchange with Mike.
But so I, I get his idea, I

1539
01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:19,000
think.
I think I agree with him when he

1540
01:34:19,000 --> 01:34:22,960
says that we shouldn't treat
human cognition and having

1541
01:34:22,960 --> 01:34:25,560
something special.
So though, as I said, we all

1542
01:34:25,560 --> 01:34:28,280
share with all living systems
like a big problem.

1543
01:34:29,120 --> 01:34:31,920
And so that's the shared problem
that we have, which is like, we

1544
01:34:31,920 --> 01:34:34,080
don't want to die.
So that's, that's, that's

1545
01:34:34,720 --> 01:34:37,200
settled.
So we, we have all, we have a

1546
01:34:37,200 --> 01:34:40,800
big problem and different
diverse intelligence solve that

1547
01:34:40,800 --> 01:34:44,160
problem in a very different way.
And I believe I, I think he's

1548
01:34:44,160 --> 01:34:47,320
right to call that intelligence
because as I said, it's like, if

1549
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:50,720
the biggest problem we have is
that 1 and you solve that

1550
01:34:50,720 --> 01:34:53,880
problem, then by any definition,
it's kind of like you're, you're

1551
01:34:53,880 --> 01:34:56,920
a smart person because your
ontology already existing

1552
01:34:56,920 --> 01:34:59,920
depends on it.
So you can't really play chess

1553
01:34:59,920 --> 01:35:02,520
if you don't exist.
So you need to sort out ontology

1554
01:35:02,520 --> 01:35:04,360
first and then play chess later,
right?

1555
01:35:04,680 --> 01:35:10,720
So I think I agree with that.
What, what I, let's agree with

1556
01:35:10,720 --> 01:35:12,600
him.
And we already know this because

1557
01:35:12,600 --> 01:35:20,680
we, you know, we exchanging
emails with him on a recent

1558
01:35:20,680 --> 01:35:23,320
paper that I wrote with Eric
Querry introducing you on

1559
01:35:23,880 --> 01:35:28,560
ontological approach is called
biological idealism, where you

1560
01:35:28,560 --> 01:35:31,240
basically bite the bullet and
say, well, actually experience

1561
01:35:31,240 --> 01:35:33,040
is a fundamental way of
existing.

1562
01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:38,800
So it's not psychist, but it's
like, well, that's, you know,

1563
01:35:39,760 --> 01:35:41,560
this, this the thing that the
big one.

1564
01:35:41,600 --> 01:35:44,720
Yeah, the big one.
And then, and if that's the

1565
01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:51,640
case, then what I want to say is
that because necessarily we

1566
01:35:52,640 --> 01:35:55,920
enter the world and we
understand the world through our

1567
01:35:55,920 --> 01:36:02,000
own subjective human experience,
what have we found about the

1568
01:36:02,000 --> 01:36:05,560
world outside as necessary?
Has this like implicit plans

1569
01:36:05,560 --> 01:36:08,800
coming from our perspective?
And we can agree that yes, there

1570
01:36:08,800 --> 01:36:12,600
are diverse intelligence that
function that way, but whether

1571
01:36:12,600 --> 01:36:16,560
we like it or not, our way to
approach is to still going to be

1572
01:36:16,640 --> 01:36:18,560
our way to approaches.
Yeah.

1573
01:36:18,560 --> 01:36:25,920
So to understand it, so, and
there is no, there is no way to

1574
01:36:26,360 --> 01:36:30,800
extract our self in an abstract
space or Platonic space.

1575
01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:33,560
This is the main point of
disagreement that I, I, I don't,

1576
01:36:33,640 --> 01:36:37,200
I don't think there is no way to
obstruct ourself and to, you

1577
01:36:37,200 --> 01:36:44,600
know, find some pure forms or
like Platonic forms that somehow

1578
01:36:45,160 --> 01:36:49,720
you know, you find them in many
different forms of lives.

1579
01:36:52,240 --> 01:36:56,920
I think what would Eric would
buy the bullet and say, actually

1580
01:36:56,920 --> 01:37:04,120
mathematics is a way of living.
It's like, it's like mathematics

1581
01:37:04,120 --> 01:37:10,800
is lives in US, you know, lives
in US in our way of like and,

1582
01:37:10,960 --> 01:37:15,440
and whether we're like it or
not, we stay in loop, we stay in

1583
01:37:15,440 --> 01:37:21,560
loop of that.
So I think a better way to put

1584
01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:24,240
this, because this is, as I
said, I, I don't have like,

1585
01:37:24,520 --> 01:37:26,800
let's say like a full-fledged
opinion on this.

1586
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:28,920
I'm still wrapping my mind
around it.

1587
01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:33,000
I want to say what I want to say
is that.

1588
01:37:33,440 --> 01:37:36,880
So with my students, I'm putting
a slide usually with, you know,

1589
01:37:36,880 --> 01:37:39,320
a cat and robot.
And I asked them what is the

1590
01:37:39,320 --> 01:37:41,600
main fundamental difference
between these two systems?

1591
01:37:41,600 --> 01:37:44,600
And they come up with lots of
responses.

1592
01:37:44,600 --> 01:37:48,880
But for me, the most important
one is that we do robots.

1593
01:37:48,880 --> 01:37:54,480
We don't do cats.
So it's like we don't do fin

1594
01:37:54,480 --> 01:37:56,560
lines or something.
So what was I once saved by to

1595
01:37:56,560 --> 01:38:01,400
see if human hadn't existed,
robots wouldn't haven't existed.

1596
01:38:01,920 --> 01:38:05,800
But if humans hadn't existed, I
don't know, felons might have

1597
01:38:05,800 --> 01:38:06,800
existed.
I don't care.

1598
01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:11,640
I mean, life doesn't I mean life
doesn't need humans to exist.

1599
01:38:11,640 --> 01:38:12,840
This is what I want to say,
right?

1600
01:38:12,840 --> 01:38:14,760
And and doesn't need our mind to
exist.

1601
01:38:14,760 --> 01:38:20,240
And life finds different forms
of continuing the existence from

1602
01:38:20,240 --> 01:38:23,480
many, many other forms.
And I, I agree with Mike that we

1603
01:38:23,480 --> 01:38:29,520
need to go and expand continuum
to just like say, well, it's not

1604
01:38:29,520 --> 01:38:33,320
just about us and we don't have
something special in our mind,

1605
01:38:33,320 --> 01:38:37,040
blah, blah, blah.
But it also means then we need

1606
01:38:37,040 --> 01:38:40,880
to own our ontology.
And it's like, because whether

1607
01:38:40,880 --> 01:38:43,720
we like it or not, we are in the
middle of it.

1608
01:38:45,040 --> 01:38:47,680
And we need to clarify where
exactly you're coming from,

1609
01:38:47,680 --> 01:38:50,440
what's your ontological status
was, is like.

1610
01:38:50,440 --> 01:38:55,120
And in our case, Terry could buy
the bull and say, well, this is

1611
01:38:56,000 --> 01:39:00,240
this is what the we state this.
And you know, it's like the our

1612
01:39:00,240 --> 01:39:03,520
starting point because as I
said, whether we like it or not,

1613
01:39:04,400 --> 01:39:10,120
the entrance point of
understanding this is

1614
01:39:10,120 --> 01:39:14,320
necessarily through our
subjective experiences.

1615
01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:20,400
And even if you use like, you
know, sophisticated tools like

1616
01:39:21,560 --> 01:39:25,680
conceptual tools, like
abstractions or mathematical

1617
01:39:25,680 --> 01:39:32,120
formal formulas to find, you
know, forms in the world, like

1618
01:39:32,120 --> 01:39:36,000
for mental forms, like
symmetries in the world, those

1619
01:39:36,000 --> 01:39:42,520
are always, always in relation
to our own understanding of them

1620
01:39:42,760 --> 01:39:46,600
and our way of like measuring
them on our way of like

1621
01:39:47,960 --> 01:39:52,160
positioning ourself in that.
And I, I, I don't think we can

1622
01:39:52,160 --> 01:39:56,160
extract ourselves from what they
going to have doesn't.

1623
01:39:56,200 --> 01:39:58,400
Mean, I think, I think it's good
to to grow that up.

1624
01:39:58,400 --> 01:39:59,520
Sorry Anna, to just stop you
there.

1625
01:39:59,520 --> 01:40:01,360
But this might help you unpack
that further.

1626
01:40:01,360 --> 01:40:05,280
But because if I had to ask you,
I might have assumed perhaps it

1627
01:40:05,280 --> 01:40:07,720
would be like a biological pan
experientialism.

1628
01:40:08,440 --> 01:40:10,280
No.
But yes, but it makes sense from

1629
01:40:10,280 --> 01:40:12,240
what you're saying that it's,
you cannot abstract from it.

1630
01:40:12,240 --> 01:40:15,320
So it has to be a fundamental
ontology of this is.

1631
01:40:15,760 --> 01:40:17,240
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, play.

1632
01:40:17,240 --> 01:40:20,640
They get what you mean.
So it's it's we, we just bite

1633
01:40:20,640 --> 01:40:25,240
the bullet to say own own
ontology, do metaphysics.

1634
01:40:26,360 --> 01:40:28,080
So if I had to ask you right
now, So what is your

1635
01:40:28,080 --> 01:40:29,920
philosophical view on
consciousness, then you would

1636
01:40:29,920 --> 01:40:32,080
say it's this is it?
Would you bite the bullet and

1637
01:40:32,080 --> 01:40:35,200
just say biological?
Yeah, ideals.

1638
01:40:35,720 --> 01:40:39,280
I, I want to say is that that's,
that's this means that you

1639
01:40:39,280 --> 01:40:42,440
cannot extract experiences from
living systems.

1640
01:40:42,440 --> 01:40:48,680
So it's like experiences are the
way of existing or freedom

1641
01:40:48,680 --> 01:40:50,520
systems.
And then Paul if.

1642
01:40:50,840 --> 01:40:53,800
Wikipedia had to give a
definition today of your of this

1643
01:40:53,800 --> 01:40:56,120
new of this new view biological
idealism.

1644
01:40:56,120 --> 01:40:59,120
What would it be?
Wait, I need to.

1645
01:40:59,120 --> 01:41:01,120
I need to go back to.
Let's formalize this.

1646
01:41:02,240 --> 01:41:04,600
I need to go back to the paper.
Actually, we need to we need to

1647
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:07,080
do some formalize on that too,
because we we're all just the

1648
01:41:07,080 --> 01:41:09,200
theory of paper.
So bear bear with us this.

1649
01:41:09,200 --> 01:41:12,600
This is very much a draft and we
try to get actually Speaking of

1650
01:41:12,600 --> 01:41:17,320
that.
So we have, we have a workshop

1651
01:41:17,320 --> 01:41:22,680
coming at the Lawrence Institute
and Leiden in February 23rd, 27.

1652
01:41:22,680 --> 01:41:26,760
It's called Hybrid agencies
Crossing borders.

1653
01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:31,080
No biological, no, sorry,
embodied intelligence in

1654
01:41:31,080 --> 01:41:32,880
biologically and artificial
systems.

1655
01:41:32,960 --> 01:41:37,200
And where we address exactly
what you asked me so far and

1656
01:41:37,720 --> 01:41:42,480
what we did in the first step.
I came up with five fundamental

1657
01:41:42,480 --> 01:41:47,280
questions around this topic.
And I asked this question to 10

1658
01:41:47,280 --> 01:41:50,480
experts in the field, and I
ranged the field from

1659
01:41:50,480 --> 01:41:53,560
architecture to philosophy to
psychology, to neuroscience,

1660
01:41:53,560 --> 01:41:58,480
psychiatry.
So very, very broad, but exactly

1661
01:41:58,480 --> 01:42:00,520
the same fine question to all of
them.

1662
01:42:00,760 --> 01:42:06,680
And then I'm going to edit this
in one big like transcript that

1663
01:42:07,440 --> 01:42:09,800
question 110 answer, question
210 answer.

1664
01:42:10,040 --> 01:42:12,720
And those transcripts will be
shared with the participants

1665
01:42:12,720 --> 01:42:18,320
during the workshop and they'll
be invited to take a stance, to

1666
01:42:18,320 --> 01:42:21,240
agree or disagree and why and
start the debate.

1667
01:42:21,240 --> 01:42:24,440
And then the idea would be to
bring back philosophy out of the

1668
01:42:24,440 --> 01:42:28,160
ivory tower, like the genius,
let me tell you how the world

1669
01:42:28,160 --> 01:42:31,040
works to the philosophy in
Agora.

1670
01:42:31,040 --> 01:42:33,720
Like let's have it to dialogue.
And it's going to be food and

1671
01:42:33,720 --> 01:42:35,520
wine.
You know, it's like going back

1672
01:42:35,520 --> 01:42:38,560
to the I'm French.
It has to be some sort of like

1673
01:42:38,560 --> 01:42:42,160
food and wine involved.
So, and that's just like the

1674
01:42:42,280 --> 01:42:45,400
abstract thinking.
I'm from Cape Town so we're

1675
01:42:45,400 --> 01:42:47,720
we're notoriously known for
wine, so don't worry.

1676
01:42:48,120 --> 01:42:51,280
Yeah, I know, I know.
But I'm from Burgundy, so I

1677
01:42:51,280 --> 01:42:55,360
would say we can.
We can have a debate, We can

1678
01:42:55,360 --> 01:42:57,000
have a.
It's a.

1679
01:42:57,880 --> 01:43:04,720
Yeah, that's an yeah, Yeah.
So and then that workshop, Eric

1680
01:43:04,720 --> 01:43:08,600
would present the paper and I, I
really look forward to see, you

1681
01:43:08,600 --> 01:43:11,160
know what, what other people
say, because we have a very nice

1682
01:43:11,160 --> 01:43:19,280
line up.
We have well, MM Lemon, Carl

1683
01:43:19,280 --> 01:43:24,640
Freestone, Mark Solmes, Petry,
Peter Godfrey, Smith, Fande

1684
01:43:24,640 --> 01:43:28,760
Clark, Sean Gallagher, Takashi
Kagami, Beatrice Siegelda,

1685
01:43:29,840 --> 01:43:34,840
Deborah Gordon and I'm I'm
pretty sure I forgot some, but

1686
01:43:35,080 --> 01:43:38,760
in any case, this, this and Eric
Whitfield are coming from the

1687
01:43:38,760 --> 01:43:43,720
philosophy side, so very wide
range of.

1688
01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:47,800
That is a very powerful line up
there being including yourself.

1689
01:43:47,800 --> 01:43:50,000
I mean, that is quite a group.
Thank you.

1690
01:43:50,080 --> 01:43:52,520
Yeah.
And then probably.

1691
01:43:52,600 --> 01:43:55,840
Well, they would.
I I expect they would push me.

1692
01:43:55,840 --> 01:43:58,240
Let's say.
Hey, if I want to put this in

1693
01:43:58,240 --> 01:44:03,280
Wikipedia, what do you mean?
I'll be so curious to hear what

1694
01:44:03,280 --> 01:44:05,120
they have to say about that.
Actually, it would be many of

1695
01:44:05,120 --> 01:44:08,040
them have been on the channel.
I'm I'm looking forward to as

1696
01:44:08,040 --> 01:44:10,560
you start exploring this to see
what they actually say about it.

1697
01:44:10,560 --> 01:44:12,240
It's quite fascinating.
I mean, I've never heard that

1698
01:44:12,240 --> 01:44:14,160
before.
And to me it's, it's, it's got

1699
01:44:14,160 --> 01:44:16,280
an intriguing thought.
I'll I'll try and do as much

1700
01:44:16,280 --> 01:44:18,920
research on this as much as.
I should we start, we start the

1701
01:44:18,920 --> 01:44:23,920
paper with what we call the
unplugging paradox, which is

1702
01:44:26,640 --> 01:44:28,280
again, as I said, I'm a
philosopher.

1703
01:44:28,280 --> 01:44:32,880
I like thought experiments.
So imagine that you have in the

1704
01:44:32,880 --> 01:44:38,880
future one plug energetic, and
in that plug you have two system

1705
01:44:38,880 --> 01:44:45,960
plugs and one is an AI system
that says like things like I

1706
01:44:45,960 --> 01:44:51,320
don't want to die, I'm scared.
And the second system is a

1707
01:44:51,560 --> 01:45:00,400
preterm infant incubator, let's
say 30 pre 38 weeks old, right.

1708
01:45:00,720 --> 01:45:02,960
And then you'll receive an
e-mail from your boss saying

1709
01:45:02,960 --> 01:45:06,520
that unfortunately there is not
enough resources from for the

1710
01:45:06,520 --> 01:45:12,120
two systems that being the same
plug and says you need to unplug

1711
01:45:12,120 --> 01:45:15,960
the unconscious one.
Which one are going to unplug?

1712
01:45:16,160 --> 01:45:18,960
Yeah, so that's our starting
point.

1713
01:45:18,960 --> 01:45:23,160
So which system counts as
conscious are unconscious and

1714
01:45:23,160 --> 01:45:28,600
why you know, and how you do
solve that problem.

1715
01:45:28,600 --> 01:45:31,480
And it's like how you, you know,
and obviously you know, if you

1716
01:45:31,480 --> 01:45:35,080
define consciousness ability to
verbally express fear and

1717
01:45:35,080 --> 01:45:39,440
emotion, then well, you unplug
the infant and the AI system.

1718
01:45:39,440 --> 01:45:41,040
But if you define conscious
indifferently.

1719
01:45:41,360 --> 01:45:45,920
So we invite we invite basically
people to think about the

1720
01:45:45,920 --> 01:45:49,960
distinction between AI and
biological systems are being

1721
01:45:49,960 --> 01:45:55,280
dependent upon resources because
they are Yeah.

1722
01:45:55,640 --> 01:46:00,320
And how you manage those
resources in function of

1723
01:46:00,320 --> 01:46:04,200
whatever, you know, intelligence
is in relation to the

1724
01:46:04,200 --> 01:46:07,080
embodiment.
And then you make a decision and

1725
01:46:08,080 --> 01:46:13,200
and why our and we even invent,
we even propose some radical

1726
01:46:13,200 --> 01:46:18,120
terms, which is you'll probably
like this one, but I'll let you

1727
01:46:18,720 --> 01:46:22,320
go and read the papers call we
call ontological gas lighting.

1728
01:46:23,440 --> 01:46:24,840
Repeat that I missed that said
again.

1729
01:46:25,280 --> 01:46:29,760
Ontological gas lighting.
Only there I'm definitely that.

1730
01:46:30,200 --> 01:46:33,920
Yeah, yeah, I say.
I'm just making a note.

1731
01:46:34,600 --> 01:46:38,800
Yeah.
Yeah, I'll definitely check that

1732
01:46:38,800 --> 01:46:39,720
out.
So you continue.

1733
01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:43,040
Anna, you were saying.
That's, I think that's that's

1734
01:46:43,040 --> 01:46:45,040
the so that's the starting point
of our paper.

1735
01:46:45,040 --> 01:46:49,560
And then we inform basically the
the metaphysical view and we

1736
01:46:49,560 --> 01:46:54,040
basically try to argue against
the physicalist assumptions and

1737
01:46:54,040 --> 01:46:56,480
say well, and computational
functionalism and all the

1738
01:46:56,480 --> 01:47:00,760
assumption that you have and buy
the bull and say, well, all this

1739
01:47:00,760 --> 01:47:03,640
views, they have this
metaphysical view.

1740
01:47:05,040 --> 01:47:08,040
Take it for granted.
But is it the only game in town?

1741
01:47:09,960 --> 01:47:11,360
I, I love that you've given it a
name.

1742
01:47:11,400 --> 01:47:14,520
I mean, I often find that once,
once there's a name to it, it

1743
01:47:14,520 --> 01:47:17,840
always has that that little bit
of a chutzpah that that that was

1744
01:47:19,760 --> 01:47:21,480
like, it's not official until
it's got a name.

1745
01:47:22,040 --> 01:47:25,400
And when I spoke to Patricia
Church and they were trying to

1746
01:47:25,400 --> 01:47:28,920
think about when when they were
trying to figure out eliminative

1747
01:47:28,920 --> 01:47:30,440
materialism and what they should
call it.

1748
01:47:30,440 --> 01:47:32,400
And that's not actually what
they wanted to call it.

1749
01:47:32,800 --> 01:47:36,360
They wanted to call it
revisionary materialism because

1750
01:47:36,360 --> 01:47:38,920
we constantly revise the
concepts that we when we think

1751
01:47:38,920 --> 01:47:42,640
about consciousness, but
eliminative materialism or

1752
01:47:42,640 --> 01:47:44,320
eliminativism just sounded
better.

1753
01:47:44,320 --> 01:47:45,200
You know, it's just one of
those.

1754
01:47:45,760 --> 01:47:48,280
Yes.
It it just has more of an

1755
01:47:48,280 --> 01:47:51,560
impact, yeah.
So we buy the bullet with

1756
01:47:51,560 --> 01:47:54,000
idealism and say whether we like
it or not, we can.

1757
01:47:54,000 --> 01:47:56,640
We we're not gods.
This is what we want to say.

1758
01:47:57,440 --> 01:47:59,720
We cannot extract from the
world.

1759
01:48:00,880 --> 01:48:02,400
I love it.
I think it's a, it's a beautiful

1760
01:48:02,400 --> 01:48:04,320
concept.
I mean, even in nobody problem

1761
01:48:04,320 --> 01:48:06,920
you, you distinguish between
cumulative quantitative

1762
01:48:06,920 --> 01:48:10,360
processing in AI from the
qualitative discerning approach

1763
01:48:10,360 --> 01:48:12,200
in biology.
And there's always this, this

1764
01:48:12,200 --> 01:48:14,840
key element here of exactly what
you're talking about.

1765
01:48:15,160 --> 01:48:19,040
There's eternal mindset of an AI
versus this biological ticking

1766
01:48:19,040 --> 01:48:21,560
clock that.
But this is what, if I may, this

1767
01:48:21,560 --> 01:48:23,880
is where the ontological
gaslighting comes in, because

1768
01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:27,520
it's are not eternal minds.
Yeah, they're not three.

1769
01:48:28,120 --> 01:48:34,120
It's like they need resources.
There has to be a plug.

1770
01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:39,320
So and, and it's like not, not,
not really.

1771
01:48:39,320 --> 01:48:43,360
And it's like there's some, you
know, hidden ontology behind it.

1772
01:48:43,360 --> 01:48:45,440
And This is why we put the thing
on the table.

1773
01:48:45,440 --> 01:48:48,080
It's like, what is your
metaphysic?

1774
01:48:48,080 --> 01:48:49,840
What is your metaphysical
assumptions?

1775
01:48:49,840 --> 01:48:51,520
It's like, put it there on the
table.

1776
01:48:51,520 --> 01:48:52,960
I want to.
I want to see them.

1777
01:48:53,360 --> 01:48:55,400
I mean, it's very easy for us to
just switch it off too.

1778
01:48:55,680 --> 01:48:57,200
So it's like.
Yeah, yeah, it's true.

1779
01:48:57,520 --> 01:48:59,840
We make not do it.
We shouldn't do it too

1780
01:48:59,840 --> 01:49:01,640
successful because it might die
very quickly.

1781
01:49:04,160 --> 01:49:07,840
It's like if you take ontology
for granted, just like die very

1782
01:49:07,840 --> 01:49:10,560
quickly, right?
You should also on the

1783
01:49:10,560 --> 01:49:15,440
contraries, I think, I think as
the the reason why we recall so

1784
01:49:16,160 --> 01:49:19,120
vividly negative events is
because we don't want to die and

1785
01:49:19,160 --> 01:49:21,080
the brain says it's like don't
do that again.

1786
01:49:21,280 --> 01:49:25,080
It's like that that's dangerous.
And we recall, we retain

1787
01:49:25,080 --> 01:49:28,480
negative events because we want
to prevent them to go through

1788
01:49:28,480 --> 01:49:31,160
them in the future.
Whereas the +1 is like, oh, that

1789
01:49:31,160 --> 01:49:32,120
was nice.
That's fine.

1790
01:49:32,440 --> 01:49:34,240
Yeah.
But the negative, the trauma

1791
01:49:34,480 --> 01:49:36,600
stays with us.
And because sometimes you say,

1792
01:49:36,600 --> 01:49:39,920
why do I remember the negative
seeing things, the bad things,

1793
01:49:39,920 --> 01:49:41,560
but never I remember the good
things.

1794
01:49:41,560 --> 01:49:43,480
And the.
But actually there is a reason

1795
01:49:43,480 --> 01:49:45,520
behind that.
And the reason is because you

1796
01:49:45,520 --> 01:49:48,520
don't want to die is you want to
keep track of that bad thing

1797
01:49:48,520 --> 01:49:50,560
because you don't want to
reproduce it in the in the

1798
01:49:50,560 --> 01:49:52,240
future.
And that's a very useful

1799
01:49:52,240 --> 01:49:53,760
survival mechanism.
Yeah.

1800
01:49:54,800 --> 01:49:58,160
And that's, that's a, that's a
good thing to to have in mind.

1801
01:49:58,160 --> 01:49:59,800
And hence the ontology is
important.

1802
01:50:00,920 --> 01:50:03,440
I was like, even if you take for
granted, it's like you better

1803
01:50:03,440 --> 01:50:06,120
have your ontology correct.
Because if you think that Earth

1804
01:50:06,120 --> 01:50:11,360
is flat and you know you want to
go on until you know, we, we're

1805
01:50:11,360 --> 01:50:12,960
probably going to die very
quickly.

1806
01:50:14,480 --> 01:50:17,080
I love it when my, when, when
some of my colleagues at work

1807
01:50:17,080 --> 01:50:19,040
when because there's doctors,
they're not really thinking

1808
01:50:19,040 --> 01:50:20,640
about these ontological things
all the time.

1809
01:50:20,640 --> 01:50:23,280
I mean, it's very practical.
Very, very in the moment.

1810
01:50:23,280 --> 01:50:25,960
And they often laugh at me just
for even hosting a podcast like

1811
01:50:25,960 --> 01:50:29,240
this, but they don't understand
how important it actually is.

1812
01:50:29,240 --> 01:50:31,520
Like this is.
It's it's one of those basic

1813
01:50:31,520 --> 01:50:33,680
building blocks of the way you
perceive reality.

1814
01:50:34,160 --> 01:50:36,920
Yeah.
And and actually it sometimes

1815
01:50:36,920 --> 01:50:39,720
this type of things actually hit
you when it's too late.

1816
01:50:41,680 --> 01:50:49,320
And yeah, I mean, it works well
when everything is smooth, but

1817
01:50:49,520 --> 01:50:52,360
again, with a crack, it's like
when when there's a crack, then

1818
01:50:52,360 --> 01:50:54,040
that's going to be make or
break.

1819
01:50:54,760 --> 01:50:59,360
I think then I know nature will
decide who is going to keep

1820
01:50:59,360 --> 01:51:02,040
surviving.
Everyone is going to not

1821
01:51:02,040 --> 01:51:03,800
survive.
And we also believe that when

1822
01:51:03,800 --> 01:51:06,280
someone's on their deathbed and
suddenly they're struck with all

1823
01:51:06,280 --> 01:51:09,920
these ontological big questions,
the those are the things they

1824
01:51:09,920 --> 01:51:11,840
really want to know.
What is the meaning of life?

1825
01:51:11,840 --> 01:51:14,800
What is the purpose is their
Tele logical nature to this

1826
01:51:14,800 --> 01:51:18,480
universe and it's fascinating
having conversations with those

1827
01:51:18,480 --> 01:51:22,920
people.
Well, Adam, the fact sorry this

1828
01:51:22,920 --> 01:51:25,600
was this this conversation with
so into so many places.

1829
01:51:25,600 --> 01:51:28,400
It's been such an amazing your
work keeps sparking such a deep

1830
01:51:28,400 --> 01:51:32,320
sense of wonder and from
cellular fact checkers to nobody

1831
01:51:32,440 --> 01:51:37,840
challenges for AI eternity and
all now biological idealism.

1832
01:51:38,720 --> 01:51:42,840
There's just so much, but these
ideas obviously all push us

1833
01:51:42,840 --> 01:51:48,720
towards integrating anomalous
phenomena, human experiences

1834
01:51:48,720 --> 01:51:53,800
from birth to death from to life
in between, and and human AI

1835
01:51:53,800 --> 01:51:56,600
interactions as well.
In this quest for understanding

1836
01:51:56,600 --> 01:51:59,280
the mind body solution, what
excites you most right now?

1837
01:52:01,280 --> 01:52:05,800
I think what excites me most
right now is the realization

1838
01:52:05,920 --> 01:52:11,680
that hopefully is growing among,
you know, researchers that we

1839
01:52:11,680 --> 01:52:18,360
cannot approach this mystery on
our own and that we need to

1840
01:52:18,840 --> 01:52:24,800
really, really open the doors to
other ways of looking at things,

1841
01:52:24,800 --> 01:52:29,800
open the door to new disciplines
and learn from others and, and

1842
01:52:32,040 --> 01:52:35,440
reach out in a highly
collaborative.

1843
01:52:35,440 --> 01:52:37,080
Basically, we need to mimic
life.

1844
01:52:37,080 --> 01:52:41,440
We need to mimic nature, which
and, and that that is really,

1845
01:52:41,440 --> 01:52:48,600
really about sharedness and
communication and, you know,

1846
01:52:48,600 --> 01:52:52,880
exchanging and hence I, I know
it sounds a bit like a romantic

1847
01:52:52,880 --> 01:52:57,480
and idealistic, but I do believe
in collaboration and dialogue

1848
01:52:57,520 --> 01:53:04,600
and between disciplines.
I think if you you can go very

1849
01:53:04,600 --> 01:53:13,240
fast if you are one truck, but
if it's, it's like you're,

1850
01:53:13,240 --> 01:53:19,480
you're missing the landscape.
So speed is not necessarily the

1851
01:53:19,480 --> 01:53:23,160
best, not necessarily always the
best, the best solution.

1852
01:53:23,160 --> 01:53:28,000
So I would say we probably also
with the world we live in at the

1853
01:53:28,000 --> 01:53:33,280
moment, we, we, we need to have
like a wake up call and you

1854
01:53:33,280 --> 01:53:35,920
know, at the bit bit cash.
I said, wait a minute.

1855
01:53:35,920 --> 01:53:40,000
Let me think, you know, it's
like this is going too fast and

1856
01:53:40,120 --> 01:53:44,080
it's like where where exactly
this is going and go back again

1857
01:53:44,080 --> 01:53:47,480
more on this like almost like
Renaissance type of thinking

1858
01:53:47,480 --> 01:53:53,400
where people were doing science
and doing arts in the same time,

1859
01:53:53,400 --> 01:53:56,400
but also do doing literature.
And there was like, I don't

1860
01:53:56,400 --> 01:53:58,920
know, the biologist and they
were understanding how the, you

1861
01:53:58,920 --> 01:54:01,800
know, the earth was going and
how mechanical things are

1862
01:54:01,800 --> 01:54:03,800
working.
And that was absolutely fine.

1863
01:54:04,080 --> 01:54:07,160
There was no, there was no
hierarchy in the, you know, the

1864
01:54:07,160 --> 01:54:10,800
low and high level and noble,
less less noble disciplines in

1865
01:54:10,800 --> 01:54:12,920
approaching the things.
And I think that's something

1866
01:54:12,920 --> 01:54:20,280
that should, you know, we should
wait a bit, stop it and think

1867
01:54:20,280 --> 01:54:27,640
about it because just frantic,
you know, you know, forward

1868
01:54:27,640 --> 01:54:31,360
thing in French, you call la
fitta neva, which means like

1869
01:54:31,680 --> 01:54:34,400
you're running away from
something towards something.

1870
01:54:34,400 --> 01:54:36,800
But it's not, it's not really a
solution.

1871
01:54:36,800 --> 01:54:39,520
It's it's more like a running
away from something towards

1872
01:54:39,520 --> 01:54:41,920
something that you don't know
what exactly you're doing.

1873
01:54:42,200 --> 01:54:46,920
And usually that's not a good
idea because you know, if you're

1874
01:54:46,920 --> 01:54:50,320
a successful adaptive system,
you need to know, you know what,

1875
01:54:50,320 --> 01:54:53,640
what to avoid and where you go.
You need to go, you need an end,

1876
01:54:53,720 --> 01:54:55,560
you know, because there was an
end.

1877
01:54:55,560 --> 01:54:58,240
You need an end.
So that that would be, that's

1878
01:54:58,240 --> 01:55:07,040
what excites me the most is like
this, this realization that we,

1879
01:55:07,040 --> 01:55:11,120
we cannot advance in this
mystery alone.

1880
01:55:11,800 --> 01:55:15,120
And I think it's a, the, the
fact that you chose biological

1881
01:55:15,240 --> 01:55:17,920
idealism kind of, it sort of
fits and makes sense in the way

1882
01:55:18,240 --> 01:55:19,520
you think about everything as a
whole.

1883
01:55:19,520 --> 01:55:22,960
Because usually idealist
philosophies in general have

1884
01:55:22,960 --> 01:55:26,640
that sort of sharedness, that
cumulative quality to it.

1885
01:55:26,640 --> 01:55:29,600
It's that sort of togetherness
or that even love.

1886
01:55:29,600 --> 01:55:32,080
Like even people talk about
things they don't want to use

1887
01:55:32,080 --> 01:55:35,240
certain words, the L word in
science or people as they, they,

1888
01:55:35,280 --> 01:55:37,960
they love to avoid it, but you
don't want to romanticize it as

1889
01:55:37,960 --> 01:55:39,920
well because then it doesn't
sound as philosophical or

1890
01:55:39,920 --> 01:55:41,520
scientific.
So there's that fear.

1891
01:55:41,680 --> 01:55:44,360
But the truth is, most of those
types of theories have that

1892
01:55:44,360 --> 01:55:47,160
quality in it, and it's almost
inescapable.

1893
01:55:48,240 --> 01:55:53,880
Yes, yes.
But I think this idea of, you

1894
01:55:53,880 --> 01:56:00,680
know, collaboration, dialogue
and exchanges, I think that's

1895
01:56:00,680 --> 01:56:02,760
something that can be
quantified, that can be, you

1896
01:56:02,760 --> 01:56:09,760
know, channelled.
That can be, you know, you can

1897
01:56:09,760 --> 01:56:15,800
pour resources into it.
And yeah, that open mindedness

1898
01:56:15,800 --> 01:56:17,800
that that should be there.
Yeah.

1899
01:56:20,560 --> 01:56:21,280
Yeah.
Sorry.

1900
01:56:21,880 --> 01:56:24,120
So that that sort of passionate
curiosity with reasonable

1901
01:56:24,120 --> 01:56:26,680
skepticism, still trying like
almost a goal directed

1902
01:56:27,040 --> 01:56:30,120
collaborative approach to
construct rather than destruct.

1903
01:56:30,880 --> 01:56:33,800
Yes, yes.
And This is why, as I said, for

1904
01:56:33,800 --> 01:56:38,320
this workshop, we we choose this
one theme, but with different

1905
01:56:38,320 --> 01:56:43,080
disciplines and I I want them to
engage with each other.

1906
01:56:43,800 --> 01:56:46,240
Yeah, and I love that approach
as well because it's it's a

1907
01:56:46,240 --> 01:56:48,720
great way to sort of highlight
the philosophical thinking

1908
01:56:48,720 --> 01:56:51,160
within all these thinkers.
We're always thinking about

1909
01:56:51,160 --> 01:56:54,840
something, but never perhaps
tailor the questions in a way

1910
01:56:55,240 --> 01:56:58,160
that make it philosophical.
So I actually love that.

1911
01:56:58,840 --> 01:57:01,680
Yeah.
I, I, I want to, I want, I want

1912
01:57:01,680 --> 01:57:07,120
to implement exactly this and,
and to teach them the, I mean to

1913
01:57:07,120 --> 01:57:11,160
show them the virtues of Yeah,
wait a minute, Let me think.

1914
01:57:11,640 --> 01:57:13,200
That's going to be Yeah,
actually, that sounds really

1915
01:57:13,200 --> 01:57:14,240
epic.
I would love to watch that.

1916
01:57:14,240 --> 01:57:15,960
It's a what?
If you have any links to this or

1917
01:57:15,960 --> 01:57:17,720
anything that we can put on,
please let me know.

1918
01:57:17,720 --> 01:57:21,680
I'll definitely put that.
But Anna, before we leave, I

1919
01:57:21,680 --> 01:57:25,080
want to make sure that you don't
leave anything unsaid.

1920
01:57:25,080 --> 01:57:28,440
Let's say, for example, really
saying something like biological

1921
01:57:28,440 --> 01:57:29,920
idealism.
I don't want anyone to miss

1922
01:57:30,320 --> 01:57:33,080
mistake your view and then
suddenly put you in this box

1923
01:57:33,080 --> 01:57:35,160
that you're not really trying to
put yourself into.

1924
01:57:35,680 --> 01:57:38,360
So maybe, perhaps a lost
opportunity to say what is it

1925
01:57:38,360 --> 01:57:40,840
not?
Like what would if someone, if

1926
01:57:40,840 --> 01:57:43,480
someone had to think what
biological idealism means just

1927
01:57:43,480 --> 01:57:45,960
by reading a title?
Or would you immediately want to

1928
01:57:45,960 --> 01:57:48,240
say, actually, wait, this is not
what that is?

1929
01:57:48,880 --> 01:57:53,920
It's not ban psychism, that's
easy.

1930
01:57:55,240 --> 01:57:58,560
It's not that so.
And the reason why I'm saying

1931
01:57:58,560 --> 01:58:02,840
this is because physicalists and
ban psychism, they basically

1932
01:58:02,840 --> 01:58:06,200
share the same problem, which is
the very distinction between

1933
01:58:06,200 --> 01:58:12,600
mental and physical something
that's we, we, we just like,

1934
01:58:12,600 --> 01:58:14,320
don't adore.
So just like I, I don't know

1935
01:58:14,320 --> 01:58:18,000
what that is actually the only
thing I mean, I can see what the

1936
01:58:18,000 --> 01:58:22,160
body is, I can measure it and
you know, you know, touch it.

1937
01:58:22,800 --> 01:58:24,440
I don't really know what the
mind is.

1938
01:58:24,440 --> 01:58:27,400
I mean, it's like I don't have a
good explanation what what the

1939
01:58:27,400 --> 01:58:32,840
mind is and what's the marine.
So unless you take the summer

1940
01:58:32,840 --> 01:58:35,280
summer theory, you understand
where that comes from because

1941
01:58:35,280 --> 01:58:38,520
you actually want something that
actually is not really going

1942
01:58:38,520 --> 01:58:41,280
away with the body because the
body's bad.

1943
01:58:41,320 --> 01:58:44,200
The body makes you suffer, the
body makes you die and you want

1944
01:58:44,200 --> 01:58:45,920
to die.
So it's like, let's have a mind,

1945
01:58:46,400 --> 01:58:48,240
which is fine.
I understand this is a copper

1946
01:58:48,240 --> 01:58:52,880
mechanism for me in my humble
opinion, but but I want to say

1947
01:58:52,880 --> 01:58:57,720
if you get rid of that, make an
effort and just like let that

1948
01:58:57,720 --> 01:59:01,240
lens apart and suppose you're in
this parallel universal with a

1949
01:59:01,240 --> 01:59:05,320
pregnant renegade and they have
a completely different, you

1950
01:59:05,320 --> 01:59:09,080
know, a lens and you see well
what is really happening here,

1951
01:59:09,280 --> 01:59:12,440
right?
It's like here is the cell, you

1952
01:59:12,440 --> 01:59:15,040
know, this is a bunch of cells
and this is relating to

1953
01:59:15,040 --> 01:59:17,760
survivement and they have to
solve this problem and then they

1954
01:59:17,760 --> 01:59:19,560
have this like space to solve
the problem.

1955
01:59:19,560 --> 01:59:23,720
And then as Mike said, it's like
they at the beginning, this is

1956
01:59:23,720 --> 01:59:26,720
limited space or the problem
solving, but it becomes bigger

1957
01:59:26,720 --> 01:59:29,080
because it is interference with
others.

1958
01:59:29,080 --> 01:59:33,160
And I was like a bigger problem.
And then you need your people,

1959
01:59:33,280 --> 01:59:37,000
you, you we have like different
problem at different scales,

1960
01:59:37,000 --> 01:59:39,720
right?
But all towards the same goal,

1961
01:59:39,720 --> 01:59:42,680
which is like stay away from the
end, which by the way, you don't

1962
01:59:42,680 --> 01:59:45,240
choose.
It's like, is that something

1963
01:59:45,240 --> 01:59:48,720
that you choose?
It just like don't want to die.

1964
01:59:49,720 --> 01:59:56,560
And and I think that's that's
the that's the starting point

1965
01:59:56,560 --> 02:00:00,520
that I would like to to take.
It's not that adult centric or

1966
02:00:00,520 --> 02:00:02,520
AD yeah, the full-fledged
individual.

1967
02:00:02,720 --> 02:00:06,680
Let me think.
What is happening right now?

1968
02:00:06,680 --> 02:00:09,480
Oh, I can have this experiences
and then the body I can distinct

1969
02:00:10,280 --> 02:00:12,360
order to.
Hence there are two different

1970
02:00:12,360 --> 02:00:14,680
things.
If you take a developmental

1971
02:00:14,680 --> 02:00:17,520
biological perspective and see
how really things really unfolds

1972
02:00:17,520 --> 02:00:21,920
in the life before you actually
have a brain, then you have

1973
02:00:21,920 --> 02:00:25,880
different problems.
But that, that one and the

1974
02:00:25,880 --> 02:00:31,600
problems we have is how do you
get from self organization in

1975
02:00:32,080 --> 02:00:35,280
certain level to different type
of self organization and

1976
02:00:35,280 --> 02:00:37,960
different, different level that
has these different qualities

1977
02:00:37,960 --> 02:00:39,640
that you don't have at that
level?

1978
02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:42,920
I think that's, that's, that's a
big problem.

1979
02:00:42,920 --> 02:00:45,920
And another big problem would be
how do you get from self

1980
02:00:45,920 --> 02:00:49,800
organization of physical
systems, such as, I don't know,

1981
02:00:49,800 --> 02:00:54,040
a snowflake self organization,
biological systems.

1982
02:00:54,760 --> 02:00:57,640
And I think the key question
here, the key answer was already

1983
02:00:57,640 --> 02:01:03,080
like approach and beautifully
described by people like from

1984
02:01:03,080 --> 02:01:06,920
the inactivist perspective, like
and body cognition, people like

1985
02:01:06,920 --> 02:01:10,720
Madrana and Varela that they
like the old places, like the

1986
02:01:10,720 --> 02:01:14,160
vulnerability of the system
because they're open and they

1987
02:01:14,160 --> 02:01:17,840
depend upon to exist.
That what makes fundamental

1988
02:01:17,840 --> 02:01:20,560
different than the snowflake.
Yeah.

1989
02:01:21,920 --> 02:01:26,160
So there is something beautiful
in life about the openness and

1990
02:01:26,160 --> 02:01:29,880
vulnerability, and which ties
again with my Dostoevsky, an

1991
02:01:29,880 --> 02:01:37,640
idea of like there is an end and
the meaning is intrinsically

1992
02:01:37,640 --> 02:01:40,520
related to that end, and This is
why we care.

1993
02:01:41,280 --> 02:01:43,680
Well, I, I think it works
actually.

1994
02:01:43,680 --> 02:01:45,520
Incredible.
Anna, thank you so much for this

1995
02:01:45,520 --> 02:01:47,640
wonderful conversation.
I have so many questions, but

1996
02:01:47,640 --> 02:01:48,920
obviously we can save it for
round two.

1997
02:01:48,920 --> 02:01:51,720
And the next time, once you
build on it, I think we'll have

1998
02:01:52,040 --> 02:01:54,520
a, an even better conversation.
But this has been a really

1999
02:01:54,520 --> 02:01:55,600
incredible.
Thank you so much.

2000
02:01:56,240 --> 02:01:57,360
Thank you, Timon.
Thank you.

2001
02:01:58,000 --> 02:02:00,240
Any final words and anything you
feel you've said you haven't

2002
02:02:00,240 --> 02:02:04,200
said that you'd like to just
reiterate or any last words from

2003
02:02:04,200 --> 02:02:11,040
your side?
I think we need to.

2004
02:02:11,960 --> 02:02:23,680
My final words would be stay
critical, stay critical, stay

2005
02:02:23,680 --> 02:02:27,960
away from dogmas.
And it's beautiful to ask

2006
02:02:27,960 --> 02:02:30,400
questions.
It's beautiful.

2007
02:02:30,440 --> 02:02:35,040
It's beautiful to find answers,
but without when you ask a

2008
02:02:35,040 --> 02:02:37,520
question, you have already half
of the answer in it.

2009
02:02:37,520 --> 02:02:42,680
So don't disregard the
importance of the questions and

2010
02:02:42,680 --> 02:02:46,360
hands of philosophy.
I want to defend philosophy.

2011
02:02:46,360 --> 02:02:49,200
I think it's it's super
important to stay critical, to

2012
02:02:49,200 --> 02:02:53,880
have critical reasoning and to
know why I'm doing this.

2013
02:02:54,960 --> 02:03:00,600
It's like the why question.
Yeah, it's like it's and to have

2014
02:03:00,600 --> 02:03:06,200
that take some time to do the
with Kirchenian thing before you

2015
02:03:06,880 --> 02:03:10,760
rush to connect, collect the new
state of data that's, you know,

2016
02:03:10,760 --> 02:03:15,880
that lab already has.
And it's like, and just wait a

2017
02:03:15,880 --> 02:03:18,560
minute, let me think.
What exactly does it says to me

2018
02:03:18,560 --> 02:03:25,120
this to this about about us as
humanity, about the world, about

2019
02:03:25,120 --> 02:03:28,760
how they perceive the world and
about other other creatures.

2020
02:03:29,160 --> 02:03:32,000
I think that's that's important,
especially right now because

2021
02:03:32,000 --> 02:03:36,640
they have like AI think we are
more like in sort of like linear

2022
02:03:37,000 --> 02:03:43,840
of hoarding of information.
And I'm French and I I like to

2023
02:03:43,840 --> 02:03:46,840
use this metaphor.
It's like, well, eating fast and

2024
02:03:46,840 --> 02:03:51,480
a lot is not necessarily
something better, you know, It's

2025
02:03:51,480 --> 02:03:56,760
like take it easy, you know, and
quality over quantity, you know,

2026
02:03:56,760 --> 02:04:00,280
because this is what life is
about in about quantitative

2027
02:04:00,320 --> 02:04:03,160
information, proceed not about
the quantity doesn't matter.

2028
02:04:04,200 --> 02:04:06,600
I think that's that's an
absolutely beautiful way to end

2029
02:04:06,600 --> 02:04:08,400
Anna, Thank you.
It's been such a pleasure.

2030
02:04:08,400 --> 02:04:08,840
Thank you.
So.

2031
02:04:09,240 --> 02:04:10,040
Much now.
Thank you.

2032
02:04:10,120 --> 02:04:12,880
Thank you for inviting me.
As I said, I'm a big fan of your

2033
02:04:13,160 --> 02:04:13,520
channel.