Bernardo Kastrup: Is Consciousness The Fundamental Reality? Analytic Idealism & The Cosmic Mind

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Konauto something that I mean,
I've been watching you and

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reading your books for such a
long time.

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I mean, Schopenhauer, Carl Jung
talking about how much

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materialism is baloney.
I mean it's there's so many

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fascinating journeys we can go
on with this conversation.

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What I'd like to start with that
I think intrigues me most of all

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is what do you think about the
difference between qualitative,

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subjective experiences versus
those quantitative, objective

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experiences?
And why is it important for us

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to distinguish between these two
concepts?

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There is no such a thing as
essentially quantitative

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experience.
Experience is always

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qualitative.
The the the very word quality

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appeals to the contents of
experience.

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What it is like to see the
redness of an apple, what it is,

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what it is like to feel the
bitterness, bitterness of a

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lemon or the bitterness of
disappointment.

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Experience is always only
qualitative.

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Quantities are what we used to
describe an experience.

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Lifting a 50K piece of luggage
feels different than lifting a

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5K piece of luggage.
So we describe the differences

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between these experiences by
saying 1 weighs 50 kilograms and

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the other weighs 5 kilograms.
We describe the quality of

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seeing red by the by by setting
a frequency number or or or a

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band in the electromagnetic
spectrum to describe.

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The color red.
And so on and so forth.

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Now some experiences can be
called objective in the sense

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that their content does not
depend purely on our own

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individual minds.
Like if I am on a beach and I

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look at the ocean, the
experience of seeing the ocean

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does not depend only on me.
Otherwise the ocean will always

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be blue and the weather will
always be sunny.

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But.
When it's raining in in dark and

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cold, you know wish as I made
that it, that it were different,

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it isn't so objective
experience.

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I mean, even your thoughts are
objective from my perspective,

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your thoughts are still there.
Even if I'm not around to talk

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to you, I can't change your
thoughts merely by fantasizing

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them to be different.
So your thoughts, from my points

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of view, are objective.
But your thoughts are

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essentially qualitative.
That's how they exist to you and

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you are the carrier of their
existence.

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So experience is always
qualitative.

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Quantities are to describe
experience and they divide

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between subjective and
objective.

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That does not imply anything
beyond experience.

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It only means that certain
experiences are not ours to

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control.
Like your thoughts are not mine

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to control, but your thoughts
are still experiential and they

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are still qualitative.
So, so when look, we

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fundamentally most of us today
grew up in this very

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physicalist, materialistic,
reductive approach towards

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science, understanding the
universe and the way we live

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life.
Why do you think this is so

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prominent?
Why?

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Why do you think this is the
approach we've taken so far for

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such a long time?
For a number of historical

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reasons.
There is one detail that isn't

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historical when it's easy to
understand, which is a

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conflation between the
colloquial and the technical

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meaning of the word matter or
physicality.

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There is no denying that the
stuff we colloquially call

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matter exists and surround us.
I mean, this metal bottle is

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very material in the colloquial
sense, but under the metaphysics

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of physical is matter is defined
as that which is purely.

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Quantitative and not qualitative
at all.

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Qualities are something our
brains are supposed to make up

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inside our skull.
What is out there has no

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qualities, has only quantities,
which is of course incoherent.

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But that's physicalism.
So because we conflate the

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technical term matter with the
colloquial usage of the word.

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This seems to lend some
credibility to the notion that

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everything is material, because
I look around and I only see

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matter.
Yes, you only see matter in the

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colloquial sense, and that
matter isn't the matter of

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physicalism.
That matter is just the

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qualitative world.
And under physicalism, the world

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up there is not qualitative.
It's purely quantitative.

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Quantities are not just
descriptions, they are the thing

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in itself.
And that's of course one of the

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incoherent steps of physicalism
as a metaphysics.

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And for historical reasons and
and now I will explain why the

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technical sense of the word
matter has become mainstream as

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a metaphysical approach.
It started with no the the early

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science trying to protect itself
against being burned at the

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stake by the Church like a Bruno
was in the year 1600.

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So they they had to carve out a
space for them to do their work

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that the Church wouldn't see as
threatening.

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So they come out and that was
the cards that he came up with.

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This idea that psyche or so or
mind or qualities, these all

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mean the same thing.
They they go back to the Greek

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word, psyche.
Psyche is not what science deals

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in.
The church can have it.

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So you're basically telling the
church you can have spirit, you

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can have soul, you can have
mind, you can have

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consciousness.
In other words, you can have

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everything.
Because all we have ultimately

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are experiences, and everything
else is an abstraction.

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And we scientists who deal with
the pure abstraction that we now

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is strictly defined as matter,
devoid of essential qualities,

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and and being exhaustively
describable in terms of

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quantities.
In other words, after you give a

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list of number you will have of
numbers, you will have said

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everything there's to say about
matter.

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And and that works supremely
well.

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And it was known all the way
into the 18th century.

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I I I often.
About the needy, did the whole

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one of the two authors of LAN
Encyclopedia, the founding

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document of the Enlightenment,
is on record?

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Same.
Materialism doesn't work, but we

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need it as a weapon against the
church, meaning we need it so we

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don't get burned alive at the
stake.

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There was awareness of this into
the 18th century, but around

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midway through the 19th century
after Darvin.

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That there there was that
explosion of enthusiasm about

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science being able to account
for everything, including the

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variety of life.
So we don't need the book of

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Genesis anymore.
People actually begun to believe

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that all there is may be
quantitative matter.

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This thing we can never access
because we are cooped up within

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the world of mind, of qualities,
of experiences.

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Matter as defined on the
physicalism is purely A

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theoretical abstraction.
But.

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Around the turn of the middle of
the 19th century, we truly begun

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to replace reality with a
theoretical abstraction.

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We we begun to do it sincerely,
and there was a lot of

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psychological payoff to begin
with.

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You get rid of guilt.
You also get rid of the biggest

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fear in the history of mankind,
which is the fear of what you

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will experience after you're
dead.

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This has this, this greatest
anxiety of of humankind has been

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leveraged, leveraged by
governments throughout history

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to control peoples because it's
a very, very present, very, very

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strong fear we've always had.
And with materialism or

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physicalism that was off the
table.

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When you're dead, you're dead.
There will be nobody there to

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experience the flames of hell or
anything.

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And then there were other
psychological factors like fluid

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compensation and of the
intellectual elites felt

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distinguished and special.
Special because they could stare

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the bleak fact in the face that
all there is this matter and the

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soul, the mind, the psyche is an
ephemeral, you know, side effect

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of material arrangements.
And they were brave enough and

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intellectual enough to bite that
bullet while the masses were

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indulging.
Indulging in wish fulfillment

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and religious nonsense.
So I know this distinguishes a

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certain class of people, the
intellectual elites, and this is

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playing up to this day.
Some of the spokespeople of

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science today are not
scientists, scientists at all,

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don't have the degrees, don't
have the experience, don't have

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the track record to do, not
practice.

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But they go about, you know,
every from television show to

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television show, you know,
promoting the gospel.

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Of materialism, which isn't
science, it's a metaphysics.

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But these people conflated too,
and they feel great about it and

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then good for them.
But now do you feel like as

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someone who considers
consciousness to be fundamental,

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obviously we'll get through that
at some point.

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But do you think that when
scientists, when we talk about

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scientism, I mean I was
obviously brought up in a very

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as a doctor, as someone who's
obviously got a degree in

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philosophy as well.
I I still consider myself very

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much reductive materialist
physicalist and yet I'm agnostic

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enough to to have philosophical
discussions with people who can

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obviously coherently argue their
points.

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I mean your analytical idealism
is something.

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I mean it's one of those points
where I can't seem to pinpoint

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where I we are.
Find faults and and props to you

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for that.
But a part of me still wants to

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know when when you look at the
way scientists and scientism

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views your view of
consciousness, do you think they

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just associated with
spirituality some sort of a

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dogma that was religiously
inclined?

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What are your religious views
and spiritual views and how do

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you think this has nothing to do
with your scientific slash

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philosophical views?
I didn't have a religious

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upbringing, my mother.
Is still a practicing, mildly

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practicing Catholic.
But I only saw her praying when

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she was in trouble and her
prayer was a way to tell God

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what to do.
And as a child you you see these

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things in the in the adult world
this, this nonsensical things

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adults do.
And I, you know, 5 year old, I

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could see that and I'm like,
yeah, right.

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And my father.
He had all kinds of science

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interests.
He had a subscription to

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Scientific American and Popular
Electronics.

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He built electronic circuits at
home.

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I'm an electronics engineer, a
computer engineer.

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Partly because of that, he had
aquariums.

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He would breed tropical fish.
So he he had model airplanes

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that he would build.
And one of them he designed

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himself, carved out and and
built.

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So he had all these technical
hobbies, you know?

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That's what I grew up with.
I went to university at 17, had

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just turned 17 to study computer
engineering.

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My first job at 22 was at CERN,
you know, the particle

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accelerator in Switzerland.
I was helping build the data

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acquisition system of the Atlas
experiment of the Large Hadron

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Collider.
It's one of the two experiments

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that found the Higgs boson,
Atlas and CMS.

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So you know, my my whole life I
was.

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You know, I had a reductive
naturalistic outlook, and I

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still do.
I still have a reductive

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naturalistic outlook.
I just don't reduce everything

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to this contradiction that we
call matter as defined under

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physicalism.
I reduce everything to mind, and

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I see mind as a field
phenomenon.

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But I'm still reductive.
I'm still a naturalist.

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It was only much later in life
in my mid 30s, that I begun to

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develop a new respect for
religion.

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Because you need a certain level
of maturity to see through the

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the naive coating that some
people sell religion under.

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They sort of create a straw man
of religion.

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And when I say that I don't mean
only 80s, I mean also bishops

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and and Friars and and priests.
Because a lot of them are

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theologically very naive.
They they present a version of

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Christianity, for instance, that
is in direct contradiction with

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the theological understanding of
Christianity as held by church

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theologians.
It's just that the church has

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this notion that the simple
people need a simple version,

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which I don't think is the case
at all.

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I think we underestimate the
simple people out of the lot.

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I'm a simple person.
I'm a peasant boy born in a far

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away land of dreams, sometimes
even wonder, was my childhood

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really real Today I have a
respect for religion because I

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can see past that surface and I
can see past the literal

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interpretations.
I can see the depth, the new

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ones, the metaphorical sense
that these things have and but

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that was a late development in
my life.

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It required me to achieve a
certain maturity.

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Before I could see that richness
there and and today I have

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00:13:49,130 --> 00:13:54,090
tremendous respect for religion.
Now do people associate what I

233
00:13:54,090 --> 00:13:56,610
say with religion?
I think when I started out some

234
00:13:56,610 --> 00:14:03,810
15 years ago that was the case.
Things have changed a lot in 15

235
00:14:03,810 --> 00:14:06,250
years.
Today I don't think so.

236
00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:13,010
Now today, people who use this
link between an analytic

237
00:14:13,010 --> 00:14:17,130
idealism and religion.
Do that as a straw man when they

238
00:14:17,130 --> 00:14:20,290
run out of arguments.
And the latest one to do that

239
00:14:20,730 --> 00:14:26,330
was a neuroscientist from the US
was famously on famously on

240
00:14:26,330 --> 00:14:29,730
record saying consciousness
doesn't exist, doesn't exist, it

241
00:14:29,730 --> 00:14:32,690
doesn't happen.
And then I criticized his

242
00:14:32,890 --> 00:14:38,130
nonsense, his bullshit, let me
use the word and he didn't have

243
00:14:38,130 --> 00:14:40,130
a counter argument.
And he said, yeah, yeah, it's

244
00:14:40,130 --> 00:14:41,870
just religious.
Nonsense.

245
00:14:41,950 --> 00:14:44,510
So people still use it as an
escape when they have their

246
00:14:44,510 --> 00:14:47,070
backs against the wall.
But serious interlocutors don't

247
00:14:47,070 --> 00:14:50,950
have this association anymore
because I don't.

248
00:14:52,990 --> 00:14:54,790
I don't radiate it, if you know
what I mean.

249
00:14:54,790 --> 00:14:59,110
If I don't talk in in in those
terms, yes, you hear me talk

250
00:14:59,110 --> 00:15:00,990
about.
Idealism is always based on

251
00:15:01,350 --> 00:15:05,270
empirical evidence.
Reason you know carefully

252
00:15:05,270 --> 00:15:09,790
construct the lines of argument
it's not based on.

253
00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:14,190
Introspective insights.
I wrote two books in which I

254
00:15:14,190 --> 00:15:17,150
talk about introspective
insights, but it's two out of

255
00:15:17,150 --> 00:15:21,550
10, so it's 20%.
It appeals to another subset of

256
00:15:21,630 --> 00:15:26,030
the people who read me when I
spoke to Donald Hoffman.

257
00:15:26,510 --> 00:15:29,150
I mean, Don says that the same
thing happens to him.

258
00:15:29,150 --> 00:15:32,070
I mean ideally.
I mean, you have two Phd's, one

259
00:15:32,070 --> 00:15:33,910
in philosophy, one in computer
science.

260
00:15:34,150 --> 00:15:35,870
You're clearly a scientist at
heart.

261
00:15:37,190 --> 00:15:41,440
You found a way to reduce things
in a very different way from

262
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,800
physicalists, and that reductive
approach clearly still applies

263
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,480
to you.
So.

264
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,720
So it's not that they can escape
that, that argument.

265
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,600
The fact is you're still
approaching this in a very

266
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,160
reductive manner.
And when I spoke to Donald about

267
00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:56,680
this, I mean he feels the same
way.

268
00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,440
He feels that although he's
taking such a naturalistic

269
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,970
scientific approach to this,
he's often classified very very

270
00:16:04,970 --> 00:16:08,690
spiritual, very and very
metaphysical, non scientific.

271
00:16:08,690 --> 00:16:11,810
And yet he's taking such a
fundamentally mathematical

272
00:16:11,810 --> 00:16:15,690
approach to the his conscious
realism which is a form of idea

273
00:16:15,770 --> 00:16:19,010
idealism.
And and I know that where you

274
00:16:19,010 --> 00:16:22,770
part ways with Don is you of
course need 2 conscious agents.

275
00:16:22,770 --> 00:16:24,650
But before we get ahead of
ourselves, I think it's

276
00:16:24,650 --> 00:16:28,210
important for us, let's let's
talk about how would you define

277
00:16:28,330 --> 00:16:31,170
your idealism?
What would, how would you

278
00:16:31,170 --> 00:16:35,440
describe it?
I ideally miss the notion that

279
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,040
essentially everything is mental
in nature.

280
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,720
It's mind stuff.
Not your mind stuff alone.

281
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:48,480
Not even my mind stuff alone or
the mind stuffs of all living

282
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:49,560
beings put together.
No.

283
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,360
There is mind stuff out there
outside the boundaries of

284
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,760
biological organisms, and the
mental processes or the

285
00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,560
transpersonal mental processes
out there present themselves to

286
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,900
observation.
That's what we call matter in

287
00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:08,420
the colloquial sense.
And I argue that matter is what

288
00:17:08,980 --> 00:17:13,180
mental processes look like when
observed through the

289
00:17:13,180 --> 00:17:16,859
intermediation of a dashboard.
And I use this metaphor of a

290
00:17:16,859 --> 00:17:18,380
dashboard.
You know, we are like an

291
00:17:18,380 --> 00:17:21,220
airplane.
We have sensors that measure the

292
00:17:21,220 --> 00:17:23,819
world outside.
We call it surface of the

293
00:17:23,819 --> 00:17:27,099
tongue, the surface of the skin,
the retinas, the ear drums, the

294
00:17:27,099 --> 00:17:29,140
lining of the nose.
These are sensors.

295
00:17:29,140 --> 00:17:31,060
We measure what is really out
there.

296
00:17:31,900 --> 00:17:34,860
An airplane does that too.
But then an airplane presents

297
00:17:34,860 --> 00:17:37,380
those measurements to the pilot
in the form of a dashboard of

298
00:17:37,380 --> 00:17:39,100
instruments, the instrument
panel.

299
00:17:39,940 --> 00:17:43,540
And even if the airplane had no
transparent windows, the

300
00:17:43,540 --> 00:17:46,260
instrument panel would do.
You can fly by instrument alone,

301
00:17:46,260 --> 00:17:50,020
safely go from A to B, and land
safely by instrument alone.

302
00:17:50,020 --> 00:17:54,780
The dashboard conveys accurate
and important information about

303
00:17:54,780 --> 00:17:59,020
what's going going on out there,
but what is out there is not the

304
00:17:59,020 --> 00:18:01,630
dashboard.
The dashboard is in the sky

305
00:18:01,630 --> 00:18:03,830
outside.
It doesn't look like the sky

306
00:18:03,870 --> 00:18:06,470
outside.
It only conveys information

307
00:18:06,470 --> 00:18:11,990
about the sky outside in an
encoded manner that favors your

308
00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:16,670
flying safely, getting from A to
B, the screen of perception we

309
00:18:16,670 --> 00:18:20,110
have which presents to us the
results of our sense organs

310
00:18:20,110 --> 00:18:23,510
measurements of the world.
It's like a dashboard, but we

311
00:18:23,510 --> 00:18:26,030
naively think that it's a
transparent window into the

312
00:18:26,030 --> 00:18:27,550
world.
Of course it's not.

313
00:18:27,550 --> 00:18:29,910
There are entropy
considerations.

314
00:18:29,910 --> 00:18:30,910
Why?
That wouldn't work.

315
00:18:31,230 --> 00:18:35,030
If our perceptual states would
mirror the states of the world

316
00:18:35,030 --> 00:18:37,710
out there, there would be no
upper bounds to our internal

317
00:18:37,750 --> 00:18:41,110
entropy and we would dissolve
into hot soup in terms of

318
00:18:41,110 --> 00:18:44,030
evolution by natural selection.
And that's Dawn's argument.

319
00:18:44,430 --> 00:18:48,670
Nature would never have favored
a dashboard that mirrors.

320
00:18:49,220 --> 00:18:50,860
The world.
It's too confusing.

321
00:18:51,060 --> 00:18:54,100
It makes it much more difficult
to react timely to environmental

322
00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:57,300
challenges.
So the physical world we see

323
00:18:57,460 --> 00:19:00,660
matter in the colloquial sense.
This what appears on the screen

324
00:19:00,660 --> 00:19:02,260
of perception.
What you see when you look

325
00:19:02,260 --> 00:19:05,460
around is not the world as it
actually is.

326
00:19:06,060 --> 00:19:09,980
It is a dashboard built by
evolution that your your

327
00:19:09,980 --> 00:19:13,660
Organism is equipped with to
allow you to fly by instruments

328
00:19:13,660 --> 00:19:18,540
safely through life and
physicality.

329
00:19:18,860 --> 00:19:23,500
Is a term that applies only to
the dashboard, not to the to the

330
00:19:23,620 --> 00:19:27,100
to the world that is measured.
So something can be displayed on

331
00:19:27,100 --> 00:19:29,620
the dashboard.
So the world is not physical.

332
00:19:29,740 --> 00:19:32,900
I think that's a pretty
definitive conclusion regardless

333
00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:36,300
of your metaphysical approach,
materialist or otherwise.

334
00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:40,620
What is left then?
Well, what is left is what The

335
00:19:40,620 --> 00:19:43,420
only thing we know for sure to
exist, which is mentality

336
00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:48,780
mentation, your sadness.
Has a physical representation.

337
00:19:48,780 --> 00:19:52,500
It's the tears running down your
face and your contorted facial

338
00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:54,620
muscles.
There is something your sadness

339
00:19:54,620 --> 00:19:56,860
looks like, and we call it
matter.

340
00:19:57,620 --> 00:20:01,300
By the same token, I would say
the transpersonal mental

341
00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:03,380
processes that underlie all
nature.

342
00:20:03,460 --> 00:20:05,180
They inanimate the universe out
there.

343
00:20:05,420 --> 00:20:08,420
The planets, the moons, the
galaxies, Galaxy clusters,

344
00:20:08,420 --> 00:20:12,460
quasars, black holes, so on and
so forth, all of that.

345
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,520
Is what transpersonal mental
processes at the at the

346
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:21,240
foundational level of nature
look to us when measured and

347
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,800
represented on our dashboard.
The screen of perception Matter

348
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,560
is what mental processes look
like when they are measured and

349
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,400
represented on the screen of
perception.

350
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,600
That's all there is to it.
So there is a world out there,

351
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,960
an objective world.
Objective from my point of view,

352
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:40,440
just like your thoughts are
objective from my point of view.

353
00:20:41,050 --> 00:20:43,730
That world would continue to
exist whether I'm here to look

354
00:20:43,730 --> 00:20:47,290
at it or not, whether I like it
or not, whether I do 100

355
00:20:47,290 --> 00:20:50,450
affirmations a day to make it
different or not, it's still

356
00:20:50,450 --> 00:20:53,210
there and it will be its own
thing, and it doesn't give a

357
00:20:53,210 --> 00:20:59,050
damn whether I like it or not.
But that world up there isn't

358
00:20:59,050 --> 00:21:02,090
physical.
It is mental, just like my inner

359
00:21:02,090 --> 00:21:04,850
life is mental, and my inner
life presents to observation as

360
00:21:05,210 --> 00:21:09,250
a very physical body, so the
unanimate universe is the body

361
00:21:09,250 --> 00:21:11,530
of the mind of nature.
You could look at things this

362
00:21:11,530 --> 00:21:16,250
way, and if you do it, you solve
every kind of insoluble problem,

363
00:21:16,250 --> 00:21:19,650
every kind of contradiction that
we face today in analytic

364
00:21:19,650 --> 00:21:23,090
philosophy and foundations of
physics and neuroscience of

365
00:21:23,090 --> 00:21:26,530
consciousness.
Tell me, Bernardo, when I spoke

366
00:21:26,530 --> 00:21:30,250
to Phillip Gough about
panpsychism, someone asked me a

367
00:21:30,250 --> 00:21:33,970
question.
They asked me how is Phillip's

368
00:21:33,970 --> 00:21:37,190
panpsychism?
Different from objective

369
00:21:38,510 --> 00:21:41,310
idealism, do you have an answer
to that question?

370
00:21:41,670 --> 00:21:43,870
It's totally and not really
different.

371
00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:49,790
For the append Psychist matter
really exists as a standalone

372
00:21:49,790 --> 00:21:52,990
reality.
For the idealist, matter is a

373
00:21:52,990 --> 00:21:56,310
representation.
On a dashboard, matter is a

374
00:21:56,310 --> 00:21:59,350
representation is not the thing
in itself, yes, the thing in

375
00:21:59,350 --> 00:22:03,190
itself is not material.
There aren't particles out

376
00:22:03,190 --> 00:22:06,460
there.
There are mental processes out

377
00:22:06,460 --> 00:22:10,620
there that become represented as
matter, and the pixels of the

378
00:22:10,620 --> 00:22:13,140
screen of representation are
what we call elementary

379
00:22:13,140 --> 00:22:17,260
subatomic particles.
But for the pen psychist, there

380
00:22:17,260 --> 00:22:19,900
are particles out there.
There is a physical world out

381
00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:23,740
there that exists subjectively,
and it's not just a

382
00:22:23,740 --> 00:22:26,700
representation.
And the entities of that

383
00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:29,980
physical world, in addition to
having physical properties like

384
00:22:29,980 --> 00:22:34,710
mass, charge, momentum, and they
also have experiential

385
00:22:34,710 --> 00:22:37,150
properties, there is something
just like to be an electron.

386
00:22:37,590 --> 00:22:43,910
So pensychism is the doctrine
that matter is conscious, while

387
00:22:43,990 --> 00:22:50,390
idealism is the notion that
matter is in consciousness as a

388
00:22:50,390 --> 00:22:52,910
representation of conscious
processes.

389
00:22:53,110 --> 00:22:57,510
See, that actually makes a lot.
It's great that you said that

390
00:22:57,510 --> 00:23:00,270
because to me it kind of puts a
lot of different things

391
00:23:00,270 --> 00:23:03,730
together.
When you think of idealism and

392
00:23:03,730 --> 00:23:06,970
the different people within this
group, because there's so many

393
00:23:06,970 --> 00:23:11,090
different thinkers, you've got
people like Helene to Chappelle,

394
00:23:11,090 --> 00:23:14,690
who's got this Berkeley and
quasi Berkeley and Idealism.

395
00:23:14,970 --> 00:23:19,010
I mean, you've obviously got
Donald Hoffman, Tony Nadir, I

396
00:23:19,010 --> 00:23:24,090
know you spoke to him as well.
Who do you think alliance with

397
00:23:24,090 --> 00:23:28,130
your view the most, and who do
you think within the idealist

398
00:23:28,130 --> 00:23:30,820
community?
Is not doing a disservice

399
00:23:30,820 --> 00:23:34,620
necessarily, but is approaching
idealism from the wrong view.

400
00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:40,220
I think trying to resurrect
subjective idealism or

401
00:23:40,220 --> 00:23:44,140
Barkhalean idealism as
formulated by Bishop Bishop

402
00:23:44,140 --> 00:23:53,340
Barkley is is a dead end because
the the main well, it's a dead

403
00:23:53,340 --> 00:23:55,340
end in a sense that we
interpreted today.

404
00:23:55,500 --> 00:24:00,160
I could argue that Barkley had
something else in mind, but that

405
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,440
brings us to a rabbit hole.
I don't want to get in there.

406
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,720
So I will make a concession to
today's interpretation of

407
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,680
Barkley without necessarily
acknowledging that it's correct.

408
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,720
I will concede to it for the
sake of argument.

409
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,640
It's the notion that to be is to
be perceived.

410
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,120
In other words, that the world
out there, the objective world

411
00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:25,320
out there, is the content of
perception.

412
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,840
To put it back into the context
of the metaphor, it's like

413
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,640
saying that the sky outside is
the dashboard.

414
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:38,000
That doesn't work because why
are all dashboards then showing

415
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,200
measurements that are consistent
with one another?

416
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,040
How come if I look up and see
the sun and ask you to look up

417
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,280
and tell me what you see, you
would say there's the sun and

418
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,680
it's right there, and I would
say yes, it's right there.

419
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,720
Or if you were here, you would
describe the books on my

420
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,010
bookshelves in a way completely
consistent with my own

421
00:24:56,010 --> 00:25:00,450
experience of my books.
So clearly the reason, objective

422
00:25:00,450 --> 00:25:05,850
world out there, whose states do
not depend on our cognition of

423
00:25:05,850 --> 00:25:10,850
it, on our our apprehension of
it to be, is not to be perceived

424
00:25:11,130 --> 00:25:13,850
to be, is.
Primary perception is a

425
00:25:13,850 --> 00:25:18,130
representation of what is.
But there is the thing that is

426
00:25:18,530 --> 00:25:20,210
so.
I think Barkalian idealism

427
00:25:20,210 --> 00:25:23,630
doesn't even begun because
doesn't even begin, because you

428
00:25:23,670 --> 00:25:28,350
then have to explain, even if my
perceptions are not mine, if

429
00:25:28,350 --> 00:25:32,550
they come from some universal
database, why are they so

430
00:25:32,550 --> 00:25:35,470
internally consistent and even
consistent with your

431
00:25:35,470 --> 00:25:37,630
perceptions?
I mean, you need some kind of

432
00:25:37,630 --> 00:25:41,270
you need to wave a magical wind
and say, oh, because God did

433
00:25:41,270 --> 00:25:45,150
that way, did it that way.
That's not satisfying, is it?

434
00:25:45,150 --> 00:25:49,070
That's that's not any version of
reductionism.

435
00:25:49,450 --> 00:25:51,690
In other words, it doesn't have
any explanatory power.

436
00:25:51,690 --> 00:25:53,970
It doesn't solve problems.
It creates more problems.

437
00:25:54,370 --> 00:26:00,850
I think panpsychism is often
conflated with idealism.

438
00:26:00,850 --> 00:26:03,730
I think that's also disservice,
because panpsychism doesn't even

439
00:26:03,730 --> 00:26:05,930
begin.
I mean panpsychists.

440
00:26:05,930 --> 00:26:09,810
They think that elementary
subatomic particles are things

441
00:26:09,810 --> 00:26:14,730
in themselves, that they have
defined spatial boundaries, that

442
00:26:14,970 --> 00:26:17,570
like they are little little
balls.

443
00:26:18,490 --> 00:26:22,850
But we have known things at
least the 1940s, arguably since

444
00:26:22,850 --> 00:26:25,330
the 1920s.
That's not what particles are.

445
00:26:25,730 --> 00:26:29,410
Particles are ripples on a
field, they are patterns of

446
00:26:29,410 --> 00:26:33,410
excitation of a field, and the
field has no spatial boundaries.

447
00:26:33,930 --> 00:26:37,610
And and if you interpret
particles that way and you and

448
00:26:37,610 --> 00:26:40,570
as a pansychis does tries to
attribute consciousness to some

449
00:26:40,690 --> 00:26:44,050
irreducible physical entity,
then there is only the fields.

450
00:26:44,130 --> 00:26:46,950
There are no particles.
For the same reason that the

451
00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:49,870
ripple is not a thing.
You can't grab a ripple and lift

452
00:26:49,870 --> 00:26:52,910
it off the lake.
It's not a thing it it's a

453
00:26:52,910 --> 00:26:55,350
doing.
It's it's a behavior of the

454
00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:58,150
lake.
Particles are behaviors of

455
00:26:58,150 --> 00:27:01,030
quantum fields.
There is no such a thing as

456
00:27:01,030 --> 00:27:02,630
particles.
So you have to attribute

457
00:27:02,630 --> 00:27:05,070
consciousness to the fields and
then you are no longer a

458
00:27:05,070 --> 00:27:08,830
constitutive fan psychist
because then you fall into

459
00:27:08,830 --> 00:27:11,030
idealism.
There is only consciousness and

460
00:27:11,030 --> 00:27:12,870
consciousness especially
unbound.

461
00:27:13,670 --> 00:27:17,880
So I think only objective
idealism is in the running.

462
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:24,720
Only objective idealism cannot
be definitively refuted like

463
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,600
physicalism can be definitively
refuted, both on logical grounds

464
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:34,240
and empirical grounds.
Objective idealism has no clear

465
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,840
refutation.
You may not like it.

466
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,360
It may violate your sense of
plausibility, which is culture

467
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:43,230
bound as being manufactured by
the narratives.

468
00:27:43,230 --> 00:27:46,830
You have heard from your culture
since you were seven, so you may

469
00:27:46,830 --> 00:27:50,150
not like it for that reason, but
that reason doesn't count.

470
00:27:50,350 --> 00:27:52,590
All right?
It's not an objective reason,

471
00:27:52,590 --> 00:27:56,510
it's it's a matter of taste or
being used to a certain way of

472
00:27:56,510 --> 00:28:00,310
seeing the the world or not.
And some people are not used to

473
00:28:00,310 --> 00:28:03,310
seeing the world the way I see
the world, and therefore they

474
00:28:03,310 --> 00:28:05,430
think I'm wrong.
Well, okay then.

475
00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:07,950
They have the right to think
that.

476
00:28:07,950 --> 00:28:13,910
But amongst a serious debate in
analytic philosophy and even

477
00:28:13,910 --> 00:28:17,630
foundations of science, these
are not good reasons to discard.

478
00:28:17,630 --> 00:28:21,470
Any world view or world view is
discarded based on internal

479
00:28:22,030 --> 00:28:25,870
inconsistencies or empirical
refutation, and the only one

480
00:28:25,870 --> 00:28:27,750
that survives that is objective
idealism.

481
00:28:28,790 --> 00:28:34,710
So when we talk about objective
idealism but not of, let's say

482
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:37,710
for example Karl Popper, I mean
at some point in his life he

483
00:28:37,710 --> 00:28:42,980
spoke about. 2 great scientists
in their time, Sigmund Freud and

484
00:28:42,980 --> 00:28:44,580
Albert Einstein.
He looked at the predictive

485
00:28:44,580 --> 00:28:46,220
powers that both of these people
had.

486
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:50,300
And as a scientist you want to
look at, of course we understand

487
00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:53,900
psychology is a very scientific
field at this point and it's

488
00:28:54,020 --> 00:28:56,780
gathered knowledge in a very
scientific way.

489
00:28:57,140 --> 00:28:59,940
But at the time, I mean, he said
Einstein could predict that this

490
00:28:59,940 --> 00:29:02,220
would happen and eclipse would
happen at this point in this

491
00:29:02,220 --> 00:29:06,500
day, at this time, whereas Freud
could change his theory if he

492
00:29:06,500 --> 00:29:08,060
decided someone was going to
grow up.

493
00:29:08,590 --> 00:29:11,470
To be, let's say, psychotic or
narcissistic.

494
00:29:12,350 --> 00:29:14,830
He could change it later on if
the person turns out to actually

495
00:29:14,830 --> 00:29:18,390
just have borderline personality
or something different now.

496
00:29:18,390 --> 00:29:20,430
And that's what he called the
difference between a science and

497
00:29:20,430 --> 00:29:22,550
a pseudoscience.
When you look at objective

498
00:29:22,550 --> 00:29:26,230
idealism, where do you think the
explanatory power, predictive

499
00:29:26,230 --> 00:29:30,270
power for science comes in?
For all those people, of course,

500
00:29:30,470 --> 00:29:35,230
who want you to explain
phenomena within the material

501
00:29:35,230 --> 00:29:40,300
world we supposedly live in.
So I will answer your question

502
00:29:40,300 --> 00:29:43,980
directly, but let me just
preamble it with an important

503
00:29:43,980 --> 00:29:46,860
distinction when Popper Sorry,
I'm out of breath.

504
00:29:46,980 --> 00:29:49,900
I don't know your but how you
will edit it, but I just had to

505
00:29:49,900 --> 00:29:52,820
run down because of a short
circuit in my home.

506
00:29:53,180 --> 00:30:00,180
Your viewers forgive me.
Popper's falsifiability is a

507
00:30:00,180 --> 00:30:03,700
principle applicable to
predictive theories.

508
00:30:04,300 --> 00:30:07,350
In other words, theories that
make a prediction about how

509
00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:10,910
nature will behave, Freud
predicting whether someone would

510
00:30:10,910 --> 00:30:14,870
be a neurotic and every person
is part of nature, and Einstein

511
00:30:14,870 --> 00:30:19,190
predicting gravitational lensing
how you could see a star behind

512
00:30:19,190 --> 00:30:23,310
the sun because the distortion
of space-time caused by the

513
00:30:23,310 --> 00:30:29,270
sun's mass would bend the light.
And that's what we that's how we

514
00:30:29,270 --> 00:30:32,350
verified the correctness of
Einstein's theories.

515
00:30:32,900 --> 00:30:36,620
But these are theories that
predict the behavior of nature,

516
00:30:37,340 --> 00:30:40,340
which is what science does.
Science is in the business of

517
00:30:40,340 --> 00:30:42,540
predicting how nature will
behave.

518
00:30:43,500 --> 00:30:49,100
Philosophy is not science.
Philosophy specifically a part

519
00:30:49,100 --> 00:30:52,740
of philosophy called
metaphysics, meta being that

520
00:30:52,740 --> 00:30:56,620
which stands behind or above,
and physics being the world as

521
00:30:56,620 --> 00:30:59,700
we see what stands behind the
physics?

522
00:30:59,700 --> 00:31:03,510
In other words, what is the
thing that behaves?

523
00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:10,830
Metaphysics is in the business
of making educated guesses about

524
00:31:10,830 --> 00:31:14,830
what nature is.
Science is in the business of

525
00:31:14,830 --> 00:31:20,310
predicting how nature behaves.
Metaphysics is being, business

526
00:31:20,790 --> 00:31:26,150
essence.
Science is behavior doing and

527
00:31:26,150 --> 00:31:31,510
Popper's falsifiability criteria
material does not necessarily

528
00:31:31,670 --> 00:31:36,140
apply to metaphysics because we
are not, as metaphysicians

529
00:31:36,140 --> 00:31:38,940
making predictions about how
nature will behave, we are

530
00:31:38,940 --> 00:31:41,660
making educated guesses about
what nature is.

531
00:31:41,740 --> 00:31:45,820
Is it purely quantitative as
materialists say, or is it

532
00:31:45,820 --> 00:31:51,900
mental, as idealists say?
Having said that, obviously

533
00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:58,420
nature's behavior science should
inform metaphysical speculation.

534
00:31:59,140 --> 00:32:02,970
If you have a metaphysics that
has an implication that

535
00:32:02,970 --> 00:32:07,450
contradicts A measured behavior
of nature, then your metaphysics

536
00:32:07,450 --> 00:32:10,490
is wrong.
That's all there is to say.

537
00:32:10,490 --> 00:32:14,130
It's over, right?
It's over with because

538
00:32:14,130 --> 00:32:18,570
metaphysics are supposed to
capture reality, and reality is

539
00:32:18,570 --> 00:32:21,010
not supposed to adapt itself to
one's metaphysics.

540
00:32:21,250 --> 00:32:24,570
That was scholasticism.
We have to grew that a few

541
00:32:24,570 --> 00:32:31,120
centuries ago.
Materialism as a metaphysics.

542
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,480
Materialism is not science.
Science is agnostic of

543
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,480
metaphysics.
Materialism as a metaphysics

544
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,520
makes assumptions that today are
contradicted by science.

545
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:48,520
For instance, an assumption of
materialism is that physical

546
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:53,560
entities have standalone
existence, that they exist

547
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,840
regardless of of whether they
are being measured today from

548
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:04,640
foundations of physics.
Short of some woo woo theories

549
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,200
for which there is 0 empirical
substantiation, like gazillions

550
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,680
of new universes popping into
existence every infinitesimal

551
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,080
fraction of a second for which
we have not an iota of evidence,

552
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,600
Or the woo woo hidden variables
of super determinism for which

553
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,720
we don't have an iota of
empirical evidence.

554
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,470
Short of that, we have to
acknowledge after 40 years of

555
00:33:28,470 --> 00:33:32,510
repeated experiments with
entangled particles, that

556
00:33:33,270 --> 00:33:36,950
physical entities do not exist
prior to measurement.

557
00:33:37,790 --> 00:33:41,830
Whatever it is that you're
measuring, it isn't physical

558
00:33:42,350 --> 00:33:46,030
because physicality arises as a
result of measurement.

559
00:33:46,790 --> 00:33:49,470
Now back to the metaphor of the
dashboard.

560
00:33:49,470 --> 00:33:51,470
That's not difficult to
understand at all.

561
00:33:52,020 --> 00:33:56,260
If the airplane sensors are not
not making measurements, the

562
00:33:56,260 --> 00:33:59,940
dashboard doesn't show anything
and the physical world is the

563
00:33:59,940 --> 00:34:03,020
dashboard.
Unless you measure there is no

564
00:34:03,020 --> 00:34:05,660
physical world because there's
nothing to be shown on the

565
00:34:05,660 --> 00:34:08,380
dashboard.
Does that mean that there is no

566
00:34:08,380 --> 00:34:11,100
world to be measured?
Of course not.

567
00:34:11,100 --> 00:34:12,980
Of course there is a world out
there.

568
00:34:12,980 --> 00:34:16,860
It just isn't physical.
And therefore materialism or

569
00:34:17,060 --> 00:34:19,179
physicalism is refuted by
evidence.

570
00:34:19,540 --> 00:34:24,830
Another prediction, The
information richness of

571
00:34:24,830 --> 00:34:30,630
experience must be completely
grounded in the information

572
00:34:30,630 --> 00:34:36,230
richness of brain metabolism.
Richer, intenser experience must

573
00:34:36,230 --> 00:34:38,870
mean a bigger variety of brain
States.

574
00:34:39,190 --> 00:34:41,909
And not just random brain
states, but coherent brain

575
00:34:41,909 --> 00:34:44,310
states, because you also have to
explain the coherence and

576
00:34:44,310 --> 00:34:47,670
structure of experience as fully
grounded in brain states.

577
00:34:48,350 --> 00:34:51,110
But there's a whole host of
things that don't not only

578
00:34:51,110 --> 00:34:53,830
violate this, they go their
other way around.

579
00:34:53,830 --> 00:34:59,270
Psychedelics produce the top
three most intense and memorable

580
00:34:59,270 --> 00:35:01,310
and richest experiences of one's
life.

581
00:35:01,310 --> 00:35:04,950
That's researched by Johns
Hopkins and now after 10 years

582
00:35:04,950 --> 00:35:09,830
studying them, we know that all
psychedelics only reduce brain

583
00:35:09,830 --> 00:35:11,110
activity.
They don't increase brain

584
00:35:11,110 --> 00:35:14,710
activity anywhere.
Teenagers have learned that if

585
00:35:14,710 --> 00:35:18,430
you partly choke yourself and
crawl and induce anoxia, lack of

586
00:35:18,430 --> 00:35:21,190
oxygen to the brain, you can
trip without drugs.

587
00:35:21,870 --> 00:35:24,990
What does the lack of oxygen
does to bring metabolism?

588
00:35:24,990 --> 00:35:29,990
It reduces brain metabolism, but
you can have rich, intense

589
00:35:29,990 --> 00:35:33,070
experiences doing that.
That's why teenagers do it and

590
00:35:33,070 --> 00:35:35,390
every now and then one of them
dies because it's a very

591
00:35:35,390 --> 00:35:39,670
dangerous game to play.
Acceleration induce the Loss of

592
00:35:39,670 --> 00:35:43,710
consciousness pilots on the
training in the period in which

593
00:35:43,710 --> 00:35:47,700
they are unresponsive, and we
think they are unconscious when

594
00:35:47,700 --> 00:35:49,660
they come by.
They report, and I quote,

595
00:35:49,980 --> 00:35:54,620
memorable dreams when there's no
blood in the brain because

596
00:35:54,620 --> 00:35:59,180
they're being subject to 9 g's.
I could go on and on it.

597
00:35:59,180 --> 00:36:02,300
There's a long list.
So there are all kinds of

598
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:06,500
scientific observations of
nature's behavior that

599
00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:10,380
contracted contradict either the
presuppositions or the

600
00:36:10,380 --> 00:36:13,400
implications of materialism.
And therefore, although

601
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,600
materialism in itself is not a
predictive scientific theory,

602
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:21,000
it's a metaphysics, you must
discard it because it doesn't

603
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:27,160
stand up to empirical facts.
So you can use science to inform

604
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,640
metaphysics to inform
philosophy, but the moment you

605
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,440
do that, you have to be
consequential.

606
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,840
You cannot apply this in a
biased way, thinking that all of

607
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,400
science fits with materialism.
Actually very little.

608
00:36:40,270 --> 00:36:42,750
Now you the last point I wanted
to make on this question, you

609
00:36:42,750 --> 00:36:44,790
talked about the explanatory
power.

610
00:36:46,670 --> 00:36:50,830
Explanatory power has to do with
how well you can reduce the

611
00:36:50,830 --> 00:36:54,510
phenomenon, to reduce a
phenomenon in this jargon, for

612
00:36:54,510 --> 00:36:57,310
how can you explain that
phenomenon in terms of something

613
00:36:57,310 --> 00:37:00,790
else in order to be able to
state that there is nothing to

614
00:37:00,790 --> 00:37:04,470
that phenomenon, but that's
something else doing this or

615
00:37:04,470 --> 00:37:08,230
that.
That's explanation or reduction.

616
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:14,440
There is an important sense,
maybe the most important sense,

617
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,720
in which materialism has zero
explanatory power because it

618
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,400
cannot account for the qualities
of experience.

619
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,760
That's the so-called hard
problem of consciousness which

620
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:33,680
has led some some materialists
to the ludicrous, desperate move

621
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,670
to say, well, consciousness
actually doesn't exist, and if

622
00:37:36,670 --> 00:37:38,230
it doesn't exist, we don't need
to reduce it.

623
00:37:38,230 --> 00:37:41,550
Consciousness is an illusion
which immediately backfires,

624
00:37:41,550 --> 00:37:44,230
because to have an illusion you
need to be conscious.

625
00:37:45,190 --> 00:37:47,430
Conscious is the one.
Consciousness is the one thing

626
00:37:47,430 --> 00:37:52,190
that is undeniable.
But people find archaic,

627
00:37:52,670 --> 00:37:57,550
atrociously complex lines of
conceptual reasoning to get

628
00:37:57,550 --> 00:38:02,070
themselves all tied up, and in
order to be able to hand wave

629
00:38:02,070 --> 00:38:06,230
and say behind that, that mist
of all kinds of conceptual

630
00:38:06,230 --> 00:38:08,790
complexity, there is something
that saves materialism.

631
00:38:08,790 --> 00:38:11,590
Well, good.
If you want to believe that, go

632
00:38:11,590 --> 00:38:14,590
right ahead.
I for one think it's complete

633
00:38:14,590 --> 00:38:17,230
nonsense.
It's it's the most ridiculous

634
00:38:17,230 --> 00:38:20,590
idea ever conceived by the human
mind, in philosophy or

635
00:38:20,590 --> 00:38:23,350
otherwise.
So I think yes, we should look

636
00:38:23,350 --> 00:38:27,110
into explanatory power and we
should look into the

637
00:38:27,110 --> 00:38:33,670
possibilities that empirical
observations that are reliable

638
00:38:34,750 --> 00:38:37,550
may contradict the premises or
implications of certain

639
00:38:37,550 --> 00:38:41,910
metaphysics and and we should
discard those metaphysics if

640
00:38:41,910 --> 00:38:45,550
that's the case, and leave on
the running only those that

641
00:38:45,550 --> 00:38:50,390
cannot be discarded that way.
To stick on what you're talking

642
00:38:50,390 --> 00:38:53,270
about, I mean, let's obviously
bring up some names.

643
00:38:53,270 --> 00:38:56,470
I mean, Daniel Dennett, Keith
Frankish, You've got Michael

644
00:38:56,470 --> 00:39:01,590
Graziano, Joshua Buck metzing.
A lot of these guys have.

645
00:39:02,340 --> 00:39:05,860
Fond ways, I mean even people
like Patricia Churchland, Paul

646
00:39:05,860 --> 00:39:09,100
Churchland with a eliminative
materialism.

647
00:39:09,380 --> 00:39:14,940
Illusionism is a it seems to be
a thriving philosophy, and a lot

648
00:39:14,940 --> 00:39:18,020
of them anymore.
I love you.

649
00:39:18,060 --> 00:39:23,740
I love you. 20 years ago maybe?
A lot of, a lot of the the data

650
00:39:23,740 --> 00:39:26,340
comes from this.
Well, even Anil Seth comes, but

651
00:39:26,340 --> 00:39:27,820
he comes from it at a very
different angle.

652
00:39:27,820 --> 00:39:29,820
He doesn't necessarily call it
an illusion, but.

653
00:39:30,210 --> 00:39:32,930
But inherently, I mean, he's
definitely going along that line

654
00:39:32,930 --> 00:39:37,730
at some point, but they use
quite a similar analogy.

655
00:39:37,730 --> 00:39:39,610
I mean, you're talking about
this dashboard, right?

656
00:39:39,930 --> 00:39:42,610
And we're all in the middle of
this plane or perhaps, I mean

657
00:39:42,610 --> 00:39:44,810
you can't see the outside world,
you can't see that it's all

658
00:39:44,810 --> 00:39:47,210
mined.
But I mean Dennet or Frankish.

659
00:39:47,530 --> 00:39:50,210
I mean they're they're using the
illusion, the user illusion

660
00:39:50,210 --> 00:39:52,990
desktop.
If you've got icons, you can

661
00:39:52,990 --> 00:39:55,910
click on the icon, You're able
to actually determine you can

662
00:39:55,910 --> 00:39:57,590
click on it.
But you know that actually this

663
00:39:57,590 --> 00:39:59,950
recycling bin, I mean, if you
throw a lot of things into it,

664
00:40:01,110 --> 00:40:03,350
you're not really throwing
things away.

665
00:40:04,270 --> 00:40:09,110
It's an algorithm based on
something that has somehow given

666
00:40:09,110 --> 00:40:12,510
you this, this interpretation,
this representation of what

667
00:40:12,830 --> 00:40:16,070
would be thrown away.
But nothing's inherently thrown

668
00:40:16,070 --> 00:40:19,030
away, therefore it's not a real
entity.

669
00:40:19,450 --> 00:40:21,890
It must be an illusion.
So therefore the way we

670
00:40:21,890 --> 00:40:26,410
interpret seeing, perceiving,
taking in these light waves, a

671
00:40:26,410 --> 00:40:28,890
similar phenomenon must occur.
Now I can tell you that

672
00:40:28,930 --> 00:40:31,170
Frankish, when we discussed, I
mean we had almost a three hour

673
00:40:31,170 --> 00:40:34,890
conversation.
He talks about quasi phenomenal

674
00:40:35,210 --> 00:40:37,410
thoughts.
So he does not necessarily

675
00:40:37,410 --> 00:40:39,890
consider phenomenal
consciousness.

676
00:40:39,930 --> 00:40:42,810
I mean sorry consciousness to be
an illusion, but it does

677
00:40:42,810 --> 00:40:47,290
consider the phenomenal feel of
consciousness to be an illusion.

678
00:40:47,330 --> 00:40:51,330
So so Tim, it's it's it's the
way we interpret the way we

679
00:40:51,330 --> 00:40:52,690
feel.
We're conscious that's the

680
00:40:52,690 --> 00:40:55,450
problem.
What what are your thoughts on

681
00:40:55,450 --> 00:40:57,130
illusionism as a theory of
conscious?

682
00:40:57,130 --> 00:40:58,850
Nana Galen Strossen once called
it.

683
00:40:59,410 --> 00:41:01,930
I think it was the stupidest
idea in the history of

684
00:41:01,930 --> 00:41:03,090
philosophy.
I can't remember that.

685
00:41:03,090 --> 00:41:06,190
I'm paraphrasing, but what are
your thoughts on that he?

686
00:41:06,670 --> 00:41:08,910
Called it the weirdest idea.
Yeah, the weirdest.

687
00:41:09,150 --> 00:41:11,670
Philosophy.
But he meant the stupidest idea

688
00:41:11,670 --> 00:41:13,750
in his philosophy.
Okay.

689
00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:17,110
You ask for a lot of things and
I like to give very explicit and

690
00:41:17,110 --> 00:41:19,350
precise answers.
So I would have to talk a lot

691
00:41:19,350 --> 00:41:21,590
because you brought up.
Go ahead, I mean, the flow is

692
00:41:21,590 --> 00:41:23,590
yours.
This is all about your view and

693
00:41:24,190 --> 00:41:26,430
your.
So the first thing to you

694
00:41:26,430 --> 00:41:29,190
mentioned a new set, and what a
new set says.

695
00:41:29,430 --> 00:41:30,710
He's not a philosopher, by the
way.

696
00:41:30,790 --> 00:41:35,530
He's a scientist.
His point is that the same

697
00:41:36,090 --> 00:41:40,410
mental mechanisms that create
the experience of dreams are

698
00:41:40,410 --> 00:41:43,610
creating the experience of
reality, because dreams feel

699
00:41:43,610 --> 00:41:46,490
real.
The difference is that when you

700
00:41:46,490 --> 00:41:51,290
are awake, that dream, that
internal dreaming is, is

701
00:41:51,890 --> 00:41:57,130
modulated by external states.
While you are asleep, it's not

702
00:41:57,130 --> 00:42:00,540
modulated by external states.
So the whole of reality is that

703
00:42:00,540 --> 00:42:02,340
kind of dream, and in that sense
an illusion.

704
00:42:02,340 --> 00:42:04,980
Now what does that?
The use of the word illusion

705
00:42:04,980 --> 00:42:07,740
means?
It means that what we think to

706
00:42:07,740 --> 00:42:12,260
perceive around us is not what
the world actually is.

707
00:42:13,460 --> 00:42:15,140
Now let me put it more
precisely.

708
00:42:15,540 --> 00:42:22,140
The illusion is that a content
of consciousness is not a an

709
00:42:22,580 --> 00:42:26,180
entirely truthful representation
of whatever it is that it might

710
00:42:26,180 --> 00:42:29,470
be representing.
The contents of consciousness

711
00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:34,870
are illusory.
For instance, if I play one of

712
00:42:34,870 --> 00:42:38,510
those games full of optical
illusions, what I think I'm

713
00:42:38,510 --> 00:42:42,550
seeing like whether it's square
on a checkered board, is is it

714
00:42:42,550 --> 00:42:45,310
Gray or is it white?
And I look at it and I think

715
00:42:45,310 --> 00:42:48,270
it's white, and then it can be
shown to me that it has the same

716
00:42:48,270 --> 00:42:53,430
RGB value as a Gray square.
So therefore a content of my

717
00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:57,090
consciousness.
Did not accurately correspond

718
00:42:57,090 --> 00:43:02,010
with external states of affairs
and therefore it's illusional.

719
00:43:03,170 --> 00:43:06,210
So the illusion applies to the
contents of consciousness.

720
00:43:06,650 --> 00:43:11,050
When things are not the way they
seem to be, then the contents of

721
00:43:11,050 --> 00:43:15,570
my consciousness are illusory.
So let's take a new illusionism,

722
00:43:15,690 --> 00:43:20,210
Illusionism to the extreme and
say all contents of

723
00:43:20,210 --> 00:43:24,930
consciousness are illusory.
Does that prove that

724
00:43:24,930 --> 00:43:30,090
consciousness doesn't exist?
Or does that imply that only

725
00:43:30,090 --> 00:43:33,890
consciousness exists because all
of its contents are illusions?

726
00:43:34,490 --> 00:43:38,890
Of course it's the latter.
It's a game of words that is

727
00:43:38,890 --> 00:43:42,370
being played.
Many of our contents of

728
00:43:42,370 --> 00:43:46,170
consciousness are illusory, but
precisely because of that they

729
00:43:46,170 --> 00:43:50,050
are eminently conscious.
Because illusions only exist in

730
00:43:50,050 --> 00:43:52,330
consciousness.
They don't exist in the external

731
00:43:52,330 --> 00:43:56,090
states of affair affairs.
That's what illusions mean.

732
00:43:56,690 --> 00:43:58,610
It's only in experiencing
consciousness.

733
00:43:58,890 --> 00:44:02,130
If I see a flying dragon
spitting fire above my house,

734
00:44:02,570 --> 00:44:06,770
that proves I am conscious.
It does it it, but they think it

735
00:44:06,770 --> 00:44:09,290
proves the opposite.
It proves that I am not

736
00:44:09,290 --> 00:44:12,090
conscious.
Now to to understand how they

737
00:44:12,090 --> 00:44:14,810
can play this game, we have to
really go into the details.

738
00:44:15,170 --> 00:44:18,290
So.
I cannot do that for all the

739
00:44:18,290 --> 00:44:20,730
names you mentioned, but I'll
try to do that with two or

740
00:44:20,730 --> 00:44:24,290
three, just to convey the the
impression that I have looked

741
00:44:24,290 --> 00:44:30,330
into it, that I've made the
supreme effort to try to take

742
00:44:30,330 --> 00:44:34,450
this people seriously and read
their stuff and and, and with

743
00:44:34,450 --> 00:44:41,450
some charitable intent, let's
take Keith Keith's Illusionism

744
00:44:41,610 --> 00:44:48,590
is premised on the following.
But the brain has very complex

745
00:44:48,590 --> 00:44:55,230
structure and dynamics, so the
brain cannot represent itself

746
00:44:55,270 --> 00:45:01,310
accurately to itself.
So if the brain needs a

747
00:45:01,350 --> 00:45:04,790
representation of itself bear
force, it needs to be a

748
00:45:04,790 --> 00:45:08,910
simplified representation.
That's logical.

749
00:45:09,110 --> 00:45:13,110
Now, a computer cannot compute
itself other than by being

750
00:45:13,110 --> 00:45:15,260
itself.
If the computer needs an

751
00:45:15,260 --> 00:45:18,780
internal model of itself, that
model is per force simpler than

752
00:45:18,780 --> 00:45:22,020
the computer, because the
computer needs all this stuff

753
00:45:22,020 --> 00:45:23,860
around the model in order to run
it.

754
00:45:25,060 --> 00:45:30,100
So for key, consciousness or
phenomenality is a simplified

755
00:45:31,220 --> 00:45:35,260
representation the brain
produces of itself, and in that

756
00:45:35,260 --> 00:45:36,980
sense consciousness is an
illusion.

757
00:45:36,980 --> 00:45:40,430
But let's.
This second step now has a lot

758
00:45:40,430 --> 00:45:42,830
of hand waving, a lot of hand
waving.

759
00:45:43,070 --> 00:45:46,830
It starts well and then suddenly
there is a magical Big Bang.

760
00:45:47,550 --> 00:45:49,390
And then the final conclusion is
extracted.

761
00:45:49,390 --> 00:45:53,910
What is that magical Big Bang?
In Keith's terms, Keith says

762
00:45:56,030 --> 00:46:01,310
consciousness is a neural
process that represents the

763
00:46:01,310 --> 00:46:05,790
brain in a simplified and
inaccurate manner.

764
00:46:06,230 --> 00:46:11,600
That's why.
Experience feels totally

765
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:16,080
different than neuronal networks
because experience is a

766
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:20,720
simplified and ultimately
mistaken representation of those

767
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:25,680
neural networks.
Fine, but since there are only

768
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:30,040
neural networks, then that
representation itself has to be

769
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:35,560
a neural network, but it doesn't
feel like a neural network.

770
00:46:36,030 --> 00:46:41,950
Well, it's because it has a meta
model that represents itself in

771
00:46:41,950 --> 00:46:43,750
a simplified and incorrect
manner.

772
00:46:44,270 --> 00:46:47,630
Yeah, there is a meta model, but
that meta model too can only be

773
00:46:47,630 --> 00:46:50,310
a neural network because there
is nothing other than neural

774
00:46:50,310 --> 00:46:52,790
networks.
You see where this is going,

775
00:46:53,470 --> 00:46:56,470
It's infinite regrets.
And to hide the infinite

776
00:46:56,470 --> 00:47:00,870
regrets, there is a lot of hand
waving terminology complexity

777
00:47:01,070 --> 00:47:04,030
being brought up to create that
sense that.

778
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:07,760
They are onto something, but you
just can't pin it down

779
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:09,240
precisely.
What?

780
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,160
No, there's nothing there.
It's all smoke and mirrors.

781
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,640
It's if it looks incoherent,
it's because it is flat out

782
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,480
incoherent.
Let's take another one.

783
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,440
Michael Graziano, who is the guy
who is famously on record saying

784
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,120
consciousness doesn't happen, it
doesn't exist.

785
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,080
Michael refers to it as a
caricature.

786
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,520
Yeah, but so he gets a lot of
press because.

787
00:47:32,500 --> 00:47:35,660
It seems to circumvent the hard
problem of consciousness.

788
00:47:36,300 --> 00:47:40,180
If consciousness doesn't happen,
we don't need to reduce it to

789
00:47:40,180 --> 00:47:42,420
quantities and therefore no hard
problem.

790
00:47:42,860 --> 00:47:49,220
I know Hooray and therefore he
makes the cover of Popular

791
00:47:49,220 --> 00:47:55,060
Science magazines, but then we
go and look deeper.

792
00:47:55,780 --> 00:48:00,880
What exactly is the argument?
The argument has absolutely

793
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,200
nothing to do with phenomenal
consciousness, which is what is

794
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,040
entailed by the heart problem
has nothing to do with it.

795
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,800
The the argument has everything
to do with a model of the self,

796
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,920
a model of the individual
entity.

797
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:21,240
And and then Michael goes on to
say that to to to argue that

798
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:24,600
that model cannot be right.
Yes, of course it cannot be

799
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,360
right.
Our model of the self is an

800
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,790
illusion.
But we're not talking about the

801
00:48:30,790 --> 00:48:33,830
model of the self.
You're talking about phenomenal

802
00:48:33,830 --> 00:48:36,310
consciousness.
You don't need the model of the

803
00:48:36,310 --> 00:48:38,190
self to be phenomenally
conscious.

804
00:48:38,990 --> 00:48:42,590
Phenomenal consciousness is
defined as the quality of there

805
00:48:42,590 --> 00:48:45,230
being something.
It is like to be an entity.

806
00:48:45,830 --> 00:48:47,910
If there is something it is like
to be you, then you're

807
00:48:47,910 --> 00:48:49,830
conscious.
If there is something is like to

808
00:48:49,830 --> 00:48:53,030
be a cat, the cat's conscious.
If there is something it is like

809
00:48:53,030 --> 00:48:55,990
to be a mosquito, then a
mosquito is conscious.

810
00:48:56,420 --> 00:48:59,900
They do not need to have
metacognition, self-awareness

811
00:49:00,140 --> 00:49:04,140
models of the self and as an
agent in order to have

812
00:49:04,140 --> 00:49:07,980
phenomenal states or
experiential states in order for

813
00:49:07,980 --> 00:49:10,140
there to be something it is like
to be a mosquito.

814
00:49:12,460 --> 00:49:19,100
So the whole argument of
Graziano is a rather pathetic

815
00:49:19,100 --> 00:49:21,220
straw man.
He he.

816
00:49:21,660 --> 00:49:25,140
What he actually refutes is the
accuracy of the model of the

817
00:49:25,140 --> 00:49:28,460
self as an agent.
That would never win him

818
00:49:28,980 --> 00:49:31,900
headlines, because it's
trivially true.

819
00:49:32,580 --> 00:49:36,060
He's not the first to
demonstrate this and won't be

820
00:49:36,060 --> 00:49:38,460
the last.
It's trivially true and has

821
00:49:38,460 --> 00:49:41,460
absolutely nothing to do with
the hard problem of

822
00:49:41,460 --> 00:49:45,100
consciousness.
But he if he wouldn't sell his

823
00:49:45,100 --> 00:49:47,860
stuff this way now, he wouldn't
be on the cover of magazines

824
00:49:48,100 --> 00:49:50,420
because people would just yawn.
Or just.

825
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,480
Yeah, yeah.
Our model of the self as agents

826
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:56,480
is not accurate.
Congratulations.

827
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,280
You reinvented the wheel.
No, you have up.

828
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,400
Your conclusion has zero
philosophical significance and

829
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,200
and stuff like this.
Yeah, I think some people are

830
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,600
sincere.
I think Keith is sincere.

831
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:13,760
I think he has managed to tie
himself up so much in conceptual

832
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:18,960
knots that he he lost sight of
the simplicity of the thing.

833
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,240
He lost sight.
He lost touch with the reality.

834
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,880
He lost touch with the presence
of mind, the presence of

835
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,960
consciousness itself.
He's off to the races in a world

836
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:32,520
of pure abstraction, and he's
fighting some domino game in

837
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,880
that world of pure abstraction.
But he's sincere and honest, I

838
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:40,760
think.
But other stuff really makes you

839
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,480
think, you know, are all these
people really sincere?

840
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,760
Because in the case of Graziano,
I wrote an entire essay.

841
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,520
Basically making these points
very carefully published by the

842
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,920
Institute of Art and Ideas.
And he replied to that to say,

843
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,120
and the only thing he says in
the reply is that I am a woo woo

844
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:02,320
Mystic, but he didn't even
bother to look at my website to

845
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:07,640
see who I was.
It's it's surreal.

846
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:09,920
It's surreal what's going on out
there.

847
00:51:11,850 --> 00:51:13,450
We could go, we could go on and
on.

848
00:51:13,450 --> 00:51:16,730
If you want me to go on, give me
a name and I'll discuss that.

849
00:51:17,130 --> 00:51:18,170
OK, so I will.
I will.

850
00:51:18,170 --> 00:51:20,970
Let's do that.
I mean, let's take into account

851
00:51:20,970 --> 00:51:23,570
Daniel Dennett, for example.
I mean what a lot of

852
00:51:23,570 --> 00:51:28,610
philosophers and scientists do
it they they they sort of it's

853
00:51:28,610 --> 00:51:31,410
either they learn from someone
who teaches them a lot of their

854
00:51:31,410 --> 00:51:35,290
philosophies and that's where
they get their view from, or

855
00:51:35,290 --> 00:51:39,180
they look up to certain people
and gather a lot of their

856
00:51:39,180 --> 00:51:41,180
information and wisdom from
those people.

857
00:51:41,380 --> 00:51:42,980
So take for example Daniel
Dennett.

858
00:51:42,980 --> 00:51:47,060
I mean he often mentions 4
people who really influence his

859
00:51:47,060 --> 00:51:48,900
life.
I think Darwin's one of them,

860
00:51:49,340 --> 00:51:52,580
David Hume's another one, Alan
Turing's the other.

861
00:51:52,940 --> 00:51:54,980
And I can't forget the 4th 1:00.
His teacher?

862
00:51:55,420 --> 00:51:57,160
Sorry.
This teacher?

863
00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:59,440
Yeah, exactly.
The father of behaviorism.

864
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:00,800
Yes, exactly.
So.

865
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:03,960
So now when you put together
those types of people and their

866
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:08,280
philosophies, it's easy to see
how he's going to become someone

867
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:12,560
who's a reductive materialist
who perhaps will somehow come to

868
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,320
a conclusion that consciousness
is an illusion.

869
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,040
And So what I want to ask you
is, when you talk about your

870
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,760
philosophical history of the
mind body problem, who do you

871
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:26,310
think have played the biggest
roles in this question in this

872
00:52:26,310 --> 00:52:29,150
problem?
And will give us the solution?

873
00:52:29,150 --> 00:52:32,750
Because it often gives us an
idea of how you come to

874
00:52:32,750 --> 00:52:37,630
conceptualize this issue and why
these people youth look up to

875
00:52:37,630 --> 00:52:40,830
have read have somehow provided
us some insight into the

876
00:52:40,830 --> 00:52:44,670
problem.
You mean the people who played

877
00:52:45,110 --> 00:52:48,390
the most influential role in
idealism or or in general for

878
00:52:48,390 --> 00:52:51,350
any metaphysics?
So specifically with regards to

879
00:52:51,350 --> 00:52:52,830
the mind body problem in this
case.

880
00:52:53,920 --> 00:53:00,040
In the Western tradition, we
cannot ignore Barkley for

881
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,800
epstemic reasons.
I don't think his ontology works

882
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:07,760
for reasons we already
discussed, but the epstemic

883
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:11,880
value that he brought forth was
that we are always cooped up in

884
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,320
mind.
So everything that is in mind

885
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:17,160
that is in consciousness is
their force at theoretical

886
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,720
abstraction.
Where the right or wrong is up

887
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:22,160
to discussion, but we can only
touch it.

888
00:53:23,010 --> 00:53:25,730
Through a theoretical
abstraction, because we are

889
00:53:25,730 --> 00:53:29,010
always cooped up in mental
space, in conscious space,

890
00:53:29,250 --> 00:53:32,410
whatever we are not conscious of
at all might as well not exist.

891
00:53:34,370 --> 00:53:38,850
So Barkley has an important has
played an important role on the

892
00:53:38,850 --> 00:53:43,050
epistemology of the West.
Even though his ontology, yeah,

893
00:53:44,130 --> 00:53:47,810
he needs those ex machna.
He needs to say God holds the

894
00:53:47,810 --> 00:53:51,010
states of the world when we are
not looking, because to be is to

895
00:53:51,050 --> 00:53:54,420
is to be perceived so.
If nobody's perceiving and God

896
00:53:54,420 --> 00:54:00,980
is, and yeah, okay that that
doesn't seem to solve much after

897
00:54:01,020 --> 00:54:07,580
Barkley, Kant is at the root of
the idealist ontology in the

898
00:54:07,580 --> 00:54:11,740
West, speaking only after the
Renaissance.

899
00:54:11,740 --> 00:54:15,700
Because if we go back to Plato
and Parmenides and Emphaticles,

900
00:54:15,980 --> 00:54:19,620
then they were idealists too.
But I was assumed that that's

901
00:54:19,620 --> 00:54:21,940
too far removed for for this
conversation.

902
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:29,200
So can't clear to whatever the
world as it is in itself is the

903
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:33,120
nominal or the nomina, the
collection of nominals whatever

904
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:35,880
that is we don't have direct
access to it.

905
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:40,440
All we have is how the nomina
are represented in our cognitive

906
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:44,200
states, which he called the
phenomenon which is still the

907
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,560
root of the word phenomenal
states, when we mean

908
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:50,520
experiential States and and he
sort of.

909
00:54:51,250 --> 00:54:55,370
Tried to decree the end of
metaphysics by saying, you know,

910
00:54:55,370 --> 00:54:59,930
if metaphysics is speculation
about the denomina, the world as

911
00:54:59,930 --> 00:55:03,130
it is in itself, then we might
as well stop because all we have

912
00:55:03,130 --> 00:55:08,290
are the phenomenon after can't.
Arguably Nietzsche is the one

913
00:55:08,290 --> 00:55:12,690
who kept that idea alive the
longest all the way into the

914
00:55:12,690 --> 00:55:16,210
late 19th century.
The notion that let's just drop

915
00:55:16,210 --> 00:55:19,770
metaphysics because we have no
access to.

916
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:24,320
The thing in itself, all we have
access to, is how it presents

917
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,240
itself to us, which is not the
same as the thing in itself.

918
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:32,280
But immediately after Kant and
his life overlapped with Kant

919
00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:40,680
for a decade, I think I forgot
exactly Kant's dead death date.

920
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:47,240
But Schopenhauer?
He took Kant a step further and

921
00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:49,360
revived metaphysics by saying
well.

922
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:54,560
We do not have access to all the
things in themselves, I agree,

923
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,800
but there is one exception to
that, and that's us.

924
00:55:58,720 --> 00:56:03,240
We are also existent.
We are also a thing in itself,

925
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:08,320
and we do not need the
intermediation of perception of

926
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:13,480
phenomena to become acquainted
with us.

927
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:18,530
In your case you in my case me.
Because even if I had no eyes,

928
00:56:18,530 --> 00:56:22,050
no nose, no tongue, no ears, and
my skin was totally not

929
00:56:22,050 --> 00:56:25,730
sensitive, in other words, I
have no perceptions whatsoever,

930
00:56:26,450 --> 00:56:28,810
there would still be something
it is like to be me.

931
00:56:29,530 --> 00:56:33,570
I would still have desires and
fears, which he called the will.

932
00:56:34,770 --> 00:56:38,410
That was his way to to describe
what we today would call

933
00:56:38,770 --> 00:56:43,610
endogenous experiential states.
Because we have experiential, we

934
00:56:43,610 --> 00:56:48,470
have perceptual states.
Things that we see, hear,

935
00:56:48,630 --> 00:56:52,590
tastes, smell, touch and feel.
But we also have things that

936
00:56:52,590 --> 00:56:54,790
have nothing to do with
perception, like thoughts,

937
00:56:56,430 --> 00:56:59,350
fantasies, memories, desires,
fears.

938
00:57:00,510 --> 00:57:02,150
And these are endogenous
feelings.

939
00:57:02,150 --> 00:57:04,670
You would still have them even
if you didn't perceive anything.

940
00:57:05,150 --> 00:57:08,750
And for Schopenhauer, those
endogenous experiential states

941
00:57:09,110 --> 00:57:13,550
were the thing in itself when it
came to us and.

942
00:57:14,530 --> 00:57:19,530
He called all of them the wheel.
And so we are the wheel and we

943
00:57:19,530 --> 00:57:24,170
are represented as the body.
The body is what the wheel looks

944
00:57:24,170 --> 00:57:26,290
like when it's observed from the
outside.

945
00:57:27,610 --> 00:57:30,250
And then he went further and he
said, and the body is made of

946
00:57:30,250 --> 00:57:33,850
matter.
Therefore, matter is what the

947
00:57:33,850 --> 00:57:38,810
wheel looks like when
represented, and if that's the

948
00:57:38,810 --> 00:57:42,710
case, when it comes to me.
Unless I postulate an arbitrary

949
00:57:42,710 --> 00:57:46,030
discontinuity in nature, then
the same should apply to all

950
00:57:46,030 --> 00:57:49,470
matter, because why would matter
be one thing when it comes to me

951
00:57:49,470 --> 00:57:52,670
and something totally else when
it comes to the rest of nature?

952
00:57:53,470 --> 00:57:58,350
So he said nature is will and
matter is what the will looks

953
00:57:58,350 --> 00:58:03,910
like when represented
cognitively, and he revived

954
00:58:03,910 --> 00:58:07,530
metaphysics.
Because he found a loophole in

955
00:58:07,530 --> 00:58:11,170
counts denial of metaphysics,
which is we can't access the

956
00:58:11,170 --> 00:58:13,650
Numina right.
But there is one exception and

957
00:58:13,650 --> 00:58:16,210
that exceptions is incredibly
important because we can

958
00:58:16,210 --> 00:58:21,250
extrapolate from it.
And I think he Schopenhauer in

959
00:58:21,250 --> 00:58:24,090
the Western tradition, he's the
greatest idealist.

960
00:58:25,410 --> 00:58:32,770
He passed the the torch on to a
non philosopher to to young Carl

961
00:58:32,770 --> 00:58:37,110
Jung, the psychologist who.
Who read Schopenhauer when he

962
00:58:37,110 --> 00:58:41,990
was 14, and reading Schopenhauer
at 14 and grasping that.

963
00:58:42,470 --> 00:58:44,190
That, yeah.
And.

964
00:58:44,190 --> 00:58:47,990
And that was so significant for
Young that it made it all the

965
00:58:47,990 --> 00:58:51,550
way into his autobiography,
written about two years before

966
00:58:51,550 --> 00:58:56,310
he died at 86.
So of all the things he forgot

967
00:58:56,710 --> 00:59:01,790
of his life, which is most of
it, he remembered that and he

968
00:59:01,790 --> 00:59:05,970
basically.
Further developed Schopenhauer's

969
00:59:05,970 --> 00:59:08,810
philosophy under the guise of
psychology.

970
00:59:08,970 --> 00:59:11,410
Well, under the guise looks like
it was a cheat.

971
00:59:11,410 --> 00:59:14,730
It was not a cheat.
Jung was an empirical scientist.

972
00:59:15,170 --> 00:59:19,370
Unlike Freud, he tried to ground
everything in empirical

973
00:59:19,370 --> 00:59:22,770
observation, even his hypothesis
of the collective unconscious.

974
00:59:23,090 --> 00:59:28,210
He waited 10 years gathering
empirical grounding before he

975
00:59:28,210 --> 00:59:32,720
even talked about it.
But you know, whether science or

976
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:34,520
philosophy.
The point is, he further

977
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:41,520
developed the the spirit, the
Geist of Schopenhauer's

978
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:45,400
worldview.
So I would say, can't

979
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:47,960
Schopenhauer and Young, what do
you think?

980
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:49,960
I mean because obviously can't.
I mean sorry.

981
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:54,000
Obviously Schopenhauer and Young
have deeply influenced you.

982
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:57,880
For someone to dedicate their
life to writing books on these

983
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:00,140
people.
What do you think drew you most

984
01:00:00,140 --> 01:00:04,420
of these two guys specifically?
Can you repeat it?

985
01:00:04,420 --> 01:00:05,260
What do I think?
What?

986
01:00:05,380 --> 01:00:11,140
So with regards to Schopenhauer
and and sorry, not can't young,

987
01:00:11,580 --> 01:00:14,060
what do you think?
Because you've dedicated books

988
01:00:14,060 --> 01:00:16,660
to these guys, so you've
obviously taken the time out.

989
01:00:16,660 --> 01:00:20,820
I mean, writing is a very, very
tedious, a long process, not

990
01:00:20,820 --> 01:00:24,100
tedious for everyone, but it's a
long process that requires a lot

991
01:00:24,100 --> 01:00:26,820
of effort.
I mean, what drew you towards

992
01:00:26,820 --> 01:00:32,320
these two people?
The most young I came across

993
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:36,720
when I was 14 myself.
Wow, that's actually quite

994
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:42,080
that's.
I was on a holiday in the

995
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:45,960
mountains and I was just
browsing through a bookstore and

996
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:49,480
there was a book with a
wonderful, beautiful cover.

997
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,600
You know when you're a 14 year
old, you buy books by the cover

998
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:58,200
and that had a beautiful cover
with a strange symbol, lots of

999
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,240
little symbols.
It was the E chain, the Chinese

1000
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:05,800
Oracle.
And I started the browsing that

1001
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:09,400
book and there was a forward by
1, Carl Gustav Jung.

1002
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:13,680
And and that was an eye opener
for me because I would have

1003
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:15,600
dismissed that as a silly
Oracle.

1004
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:19,650
And that's all there is to it.
If it weren't for that forward,

1005
01:01:20,050 --> 01:01:24,650
that forward open, it's like a
slightly different perspective,

1006
01:01:24,650 --> 01:01:27,050
a slanted perspective.
You know, if you're looking at

1007
01:01:27,530 --> 01:01:29,850
the book this way, it's a silly
Oracle.

1008
01:01:30,130 --> 01:01:34,250
But if you just do like this,
oh, there is something there

1009
01:01:34,610 --> 01:01:38,170
that Oh no, no, that's what
Young did for me.

1010
01:01:38,690 --> 01:01:40,730
And I proceeded to read his
collected words.

1011
01:01:40,730 --> 01:01:43,250
I don't think there are many
people in the world, even

1012
01:01:43,250 --> 01:01:48,630
amongst unions, who have read
Young's collective collected

1013
01:01:48,630 --> 01:01:51,190
works because it's 20 very thick
volumes.

1014
01:01:51,270 --> 01:01:53,430
It's a very, it's very difficult
to get through it all.

1015
01:01:53,430 --> 01:01:55,510
I mean, I have a collection of
young books.

1016
01:01:55,510 --> 01:01:59,750
I mean there's the red set and
the black set and it's it's very

1017
01:01:59,750 --> 01:02:02,870
difficult to get through.
In fact, today while at work, I

1018
01:02:02,870 --> 01:02:07,590
saw a patient who quoted Young
to me during a psych, a medical

1019
01:02:07,590 --> 01:02:12,070
consult, who who's completely
obsessed with this philosophy?

1020
01:02:12,070 --> 01:02:14,910
Any psychology.
And you can see how deeply

1021
01:02:14,910 --> 01:02:17,430
ingrained he can sort of imprint
into someone.

1022
01:02:17,430 --> 01:02:24,230
So I completely see it.
So I'll give you a hint on how

1023
01:02:24,230 --> 01:02:28,990
to make your way through that
your first read of his collected

1024
01:02:28,990 --> 01:02:32,470
works.
You have to completely ignore

1025
01:02:32,670 --> 01:02:34,750
the footnotes and endnotes.
Oh, definitely.

1026
01:02:34,790 --> 01:02:38,270
Who?
Do not read them because it will

1027
01:02:38,270 --> 01:02:41,670
break the flow of the argument.
It does because and it's half

1028
01:02:41,670 --> 01:02:43,630
the book.
Yes, you know.

1029
01:02:44,270 --> 01:02:48,670
So don't do that only on your
second or. 3rd I mean, he's got

1030
01:02:48,670 --> 01:02:53,990
so much to say that a footnote
is is as difficult to read than

1031
01:02:53,990 --> 01:02:58,310
someone else's entire book.
Yeah, I mean, Young was a

1032
01:02:58,310 --> 01:03:03,030
scholar of a kind.
Don't make more of, you know,

1033
01:03:03,470 --> 01:03:05,950
there aren't people like that
like that anymore.

1034
01:03:05,950 --> 01:03:08,470
And he was already unique in his
time.

1035
01:03:09,750 --> 01:03:12,550
So we haven't made people like
that for, for a few centuries.

1036
01:03:13,850 --> 01:03:16,610
So he was a singularity in human
nature.

1037
01:03:19,090 --> 01:03:21,370
What attracts me and him?
I don't know.

1038
01:03:21,370 --> 01:03:27,810
It's a kind of recognition and I
cannot justify it through

1039
01:03:27,810 --> 01:03:31,570
logical steps of reasoning.
It's just a resonance

1040
01:03:31,610 --> 01:03:34,410
recognition.
I've always been fascinated by

1041
01:03:34,970 --> 01:03:38,090
his work because every page is
like, yeah, yeah, he got it.

1042
01:03:38,130 --> 01:03:40,450
You know what I mean?
Every page is like that.

1043
01:03:40,490 --> 01:03:43,790
Yes.
Yes, it's like I can see it

1044
01:03:43,790 --> 01:03:47,870
through his eyes.
Schopenhauer's completely

1045
01:03:47,870 --> 01:03:51,270
different.
I I knew of Schopenhauer until

1046
01:03:51,270 --> 01:03:54,150
my early 40s, but I didn't know
Schopenhauer.

1047
01:03:56,190 --> 01:04:00,750
And then I stumbled upon an
essay or an article.

1048
01:04:01,550 --> 01:04:04,390
Oh no, I know where I know what
I read a little book.

1049
01:04:05,150 --> 01:04:09,030
It was an interesting series by
Oxford University Press called A

1050
01:04:09,030 --> 01:04:13,610
Very Short Introduction.
So many topics, so there's Young

1051
01:04:13,610 --> 01:04:16,690
A Very Short Introduction.
Schopenhau are a Very Short

1052
01:04:16,690 --> 01:04:20,290
Introduction.
Set Theory, A Very Short

1053
01:04:20,290 --> 01:04:22,290
Introduction.
Some of them are great.

1054
01:04:24,010 --> 01:04:27,450
A Very Short Introduction to
Nietzsche is one of the best

1055
01:04:27,450 --> 01:04:30,850
books on Nietzsche.
But Schopenhau are a very Short

1056
01:04:30,850 --> 01:04:34,850
Introduction, which is what I
read is a catastrophe of

1057
01:04:34,850 --> 01:04:38,130
scholarship.
It's a complete disaster.

1058
01:04:38,630 --> 01:04:41,750
It's someone who read
Schopenhauer without

1059
01:04:41,750 --> 01:04:45,510
understanding the first thing
about what Schopenhauer's trying

1060
01:04:45,510 --> 01:04:49,270
to say, and then writing a
summary that is in essence, A

1061
01:04:49,270 --> 01:04:53,230
criticism of Schopenhauer.
It's pathetic because you see

1062
01:04:53,230 --> 01:04:57,230
that the guy didn't understand
anything, but he feels entitled

1063
01:04:57,230 --> 01:05:00,590
to go and criticize a man who is
no longer around to defend

1064
01:05:00,590 --> 01:05:05,230
himself.
And and I got a clue that that

1065
01:05:05,230 --> 01:05:11,220
was going on because this person
his name is Christopher January

1066
01:05:11,820 --> 01:05:15,220
January quoted from
Schopenhauer's works out of

1067
01:05:15,220 --> 01:05:16,940
context.
So you know how these things

1068
01:05:16,940 --> 01:05:18,020
are.
You have to be very careful

1069
01:05:18,020 --> 01:05:21,420
about quotes.
But even out of context I would

1070
01:05:21,420 --> 01:05:26,420
read the quote and I would think
yeah, I I, I see a sense in

1071
01:05:26,420 --> 01:05:30,780
which this makes sense and
generally would proceed to tear

1072
01:05:30,780 --> 01:05:33,500
that quote as as if it were
complete nonsense and full of

1073
01:05:33,500 --> 01:05:36,190
internal contradictions.
And I was like, am I missing

1074
01:05:36,190 --> 01:05:37,990
something?
This sounds reasonable to me.

1075
01:05:38,390 --> 01:05:43,310
So I went ahead and read The
World as Will and

1076
01:05:43,310 --> 01:05:46,790
Representation, 3rd Edition,
both volumes 1200, pages in

1077
01:05:46,950 --> 01:05:50,110
very, very tiny script and very,
very thin pages.

1078
01:05:51,670 --> 01:05:58,390
And it was a revelation.
If you take out the, the

1079
01:05:58,430 --> 01:06:02,430
ancillary stuff, like
Schopenhauer's Theory of Women.

1080
01:06:03,420 --> 01:06:09,260
Yeah, if you take out that kind
of, you know, ethical.

1081
01:06:09,340 --> 01:06:11,900
You got to get rid of the.
I mean it's we.

1082
01:06:11,900 --> 01:06:13,700
We have to take everything
within their time.

1083
01:06:13,700 --> 01:06:17,580
It's you can't let it's nothing
exists in a vacuum.

1084
01:06:18,180 --> 01:06:19,940
But I have an objective
criteria.

1085
01:06:19,980 --> 01:06:22,820
Criteria, criteria.
Take out everything There is not

1086
01:06:22,820 --> 01:06:25,260
metaphysics.
Take out everything that is just

1087
01:06:25,260 --> 01:06:28,820
a frustrated old man trying to
settle scores.

1088
01:06:29,300 --> 01:06:32,660
Take all that out and focus on
the metaphysics.

1089
01:06:34,300 --> 01:06:38,660
He says nothing that is
internally contradictory, even

1090
01:06:38,660 --> 01:06:41,380
though scholars are saying, oh,
Schopenhauer contradicts himself

1091
01:06:41,660 --> 01:06:44,300
all the time, No, they didn't
understand Schopenhauer.

1092
01:06:44,340 --> 01:06:47,660
They're just stupid.
The man was very clear because,

1093
01:06:47,740 --> 01:06:50,900
and you can know that for sure,
because Schopenhauer repeats

1094
01:06:50,900 --> 01:06:55,620
himself over and over and over
again in different words.

1095
01:06:56,350 --> 01:06:58,830
He's saying the same thing in
the beginning, the middle, and

1096
01:06:58,830 --> 01:07:00,590
the end of his book in different
words.

1097
01:07:00,590 --> 01:07:05,190
You can see the efforts, the
lengths he went to to try to be

1098
01:07:05,190 --> 01:07:07,710
unambiguous and avoid
misinterpretation.

1099
01:07:07,710 --> 01:07:11,310
And yet scholars who make a
living out of misinterpreting

1100
01:07:11,310 --> 01:07:15,270
actual philosophers
misinterpreted him left and

1101
01:07:15,270 --> 01:07:17,510
right.
But to me, the world as will and

1102
01:07:17,510 --> 01:07:21,670
representation was a revelation.
I mean, it's also amazing that

1103
01:07:21,670 --> 01:07:24,750
Sharpener throughout his years
managed to maintain his

1104
01:07:24,750 --> 01:07:28,130
philosophy.
Because a lot of people tend to

1105
01:07:28,570 --> 01:07:31,450
to sort of flip flop on the
ideas along the way.

1106
01:07:31,450 --> 01:07:32,530
Actually, today.
Yeah.

1107
01:07:33,770 --> 01:07:36,090
Take Philip Gough.
Sorry.

1108
01:07:36,450 --> 01:07:38,090
So I didn't resist that little
job.

1109
01:07:38,930 --> 01:07:40,650
Sorry.
Philip, I like you very much.

1110
01:07:40,650 --> 01:07:42,890
I love you, man.
But you do change your mind

1111
01:07:43,130 --> 01:07:45,970
rather often.
Schopenhauer.

1112
01:07:46,890 --> 01:07:49,850
He wrote the 1st edition of The
World as we When representation

1113
01:07:49,850 --> 01:07:53,930
is from 1818, the third is from
1853.

1114
01:07:54,350 --> 01:07:58,790
Jeez, he didn't change a word.
He added another volume.

1115
01:07:58,830 --> 01:08:02,390
He doubled the work, but he did
not.

1116
01:08:02,670 --> 01:08:05,510
The ideas are all the same.
He just added more

1117
01:08:05,510 --> 01:08:10,430
substantiation to them.
Whatever he saw very, very early

1118
01:08:10,430 --> 01:08:14,670
on when he was still working
with with the gutter on color

1119
01:08:14,670 --> 01:08:17,990
theory, which, by the way, was
the biggest blunder of Gutter's

1120
01:08:17,990 --> 01:08:20,710
life and Schopenhauer's life.
But that's set.

1121
01:08:20,710 --> 01:08:25,460
That's sad.
Chapter of Western scholarship

1122
01:08:25,500 --> 01:08:31,100
aside for a moment he saw
something very early on that was

1123
01:08:31,700 --> 01:08:35,979
so crystal clear to him.
It wasn't purely conceptual.

1124
01:08:36,819 --> 01:08:39,420
It's not like you're moving the
dominoes in your head and then

1125
01:08:39,420 --> 01:08:42,899
two years on you think, oh, I
can put the dominoes together in

1126
01:08:42,899 --> 01:08:46,140
a better way.
The hallmark of philosophy is a

1127
01:08:46,140 --> 01:08:49,939
purely conceptual exercise, and
that's why analytic philosophers

1128
01:08:49,939 --> 01:08:52,069
today change their mind so
often.

1129
01:08:52,069 --> 01:08:56,069
It's not embodied philosophy,
it's philosophy done by one

1130
01:08:56,069 --> 01:09:00,910
particular mental faculty,
conceptual reasoning and and and

1131
01:09:00,910 --> 01:09:03,870
not based on all the other
mental faculties.

1132
01:09:03,870 --> 01:09:07,710
We have to make up what we call
intelligence, or dare I say,

1133
01:09:07,710 --> 01:09:10,430
wisdom, which is completely
lacking today.

1134
01:09:11,470 --> 01:09:15,510
He he came to the world as will
and representation with the

1135
01:09:15,510 --> 01:09:20,069
wholeness of his mind.
All his faculties were committed

1136
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:23,040
to that, and he embodied that
philosophy.

1137
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:28,880
You can see that in anecdotes he
he had a poodle called Atman,

1138
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:32,279
right?
The problem is that Atman seems

1139
01:09:32,279 --> 01:09:37,000
to have lived for 30 years.
How is that possible that Atman

1140
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:40,080
the poodle lived for 30 years?
Well, it's because it was not

1141
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:42,000
one poodle, it was several
poodles.

1142
01:09:42,399 --> 01:09:47,319
But Schopenhauer's view was that
every poodle was the same

1143
01:09:47,319 --> 01:09:51,300
poodle.
It was the same mind, the same

1144
01:09:52,660 --> 01:09:58,700
primordial form underlying the
appearance of multiple poodles.

1145
01:09:59,260 --> 01:10:02,140
The different poodles were just
differences in appearance in

1146
01:10:02,140 --> 01:10:05,380
appearance.
But the will is unified is

1147
01:10:05,380 --> 01:10:10,060
unitary because it's outside
space-time, and space-time is

1148
01:10:10,060 --> 01:10:12,940
the principal individual.
Cion is, as he called it, the

1149
01:10:12,940 --> 01:10:16,740
principle of individuation,
which in medieval scholasticism

1150
01:10:17,110 --> 01:10:21,510
means the means by which things
can be towed apart or separate

1151
01:10:21,510 --> 01:10:22,910
from each other.
That's space-time.

1152
01:10:23,230 --> 01:10:26,070
If there is no space-time, there
cannot be individualization.

1153
01:10:26,310 --> 01:10:28,510
Therefore every poodle is the
same poodle.

1154
01:10:28,510 --> 01:10:31,590
It's the same wheel.
The thing in itself is the same,

1155
01:10:31,590 --> 01:10:34,110
even though the representation
may be different.

1156
01:10:34,430 --> 01:10:36,670
So every poodle he had was
called Atman.

1157
01:10:37,350 --> 01:10:40,870
That's Schopenhauer living in an
embodied form, his philosophy.

1158
01:10:44,260 --> 01:10:49,660
I think it's it's so amazing to
see how these ideas evolve over

1159
01:10:49,660 --> 01:10:51,940
time.
I mean when when we look back,

1160
01:10:51,940 --> 01:10:54,380
we always realized we were
living in sort of design cast of

1161
01:10:54,380 --> 01:10:56,940
the time.
I mean at some point we look, we

1162
01:10:56,940 --> 01:10:59,980
viewed consciousness in the
brain working as pumps and

1163
01:10:59,980 --> 01:11:04,020
valves at some point then it was
kind of OK now we're looking at

1164
01:11:04,020 --> 01:11:06,740
as computerized sort of programs
and information.

1165
01:11:07,460 --> 01:11:11,060
We tend to always adjust our
theories according to this

1166
01:11:11,060 --> 01:11:13,610
current.
Perception of the world.

1167
01:11:13,890 --> 01:11:17,890
What I do want to know, Bernardo
from your side is this podcast.

1168
01:11:17,890 --> 01:11:21,730
I mean was to show just how
difficult theoretically and

1169
01:11:21,730 --> 01:11:23,570
practically the mind body
problem is.

1170
01:11:24,890 --> 01:11:27,690
And and the practicality comes
from me being a doctor trying to

1171
01:11:27,690 --> 01:11:30,250
figure out how.
How do I treat psychiatric

1172
01:11:30,250 --> 01:11:35,090
patients when I know that we
don't know what consciousness

1173
01:11:35,090 --> 01:11:37,270
is?
Fundamentally, we're all

1174
01:11:37,270 --> 01:11:40,230
struggling and baffling with
this issue and we're looking at

1175
01:11:40,230 --> 01:11:42,430
neuro correlates of
consciousness and assuming we

1176
01:11:42,430 --> 01:11:46,030
can treat certain brain issues
when clearly it doesn't work for

1177
01:11:46,030 --> 01:11:48,990
many people.
I mean there's there's there's

1178
01:11:48,990 --> 01:11:51,830
clearly a problem here, how do
we move past it?

1179
01:11:52,070 --> 01:11:55,110
How do you think that your
objective idealism or analytic

1180
01:11:55,110 --> 01:12:00,710
idealism helps this scenario and
can assist us as practitioners

1181
01:12:00,990 --> 01:12:05,840
to to treat patients?
And let me start by saying what

1182
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:09,600
does not change because I have
learned over the years that it's

1183
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:12,200
important to preamble what I'm
about to say.

1184
01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:17,280
This way we should keep on
looking at the brain Physiology

1185
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:20,000
and the neuro correlates of meta
consciousness.

1186
01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:22,440
We don't have the neuro
correlates of consciousness

1187
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:27,760
because most of the studies have
been done based on direct

1188
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:31,080
reports not the words.
The subject has to report having

1189
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:34,640
an experience, and then you go
and based that experience next

1190
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:37,680
to the corresponding patterns of
brain activity measured at the

1191
01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:39,880
same time.
The problem is that to report an

1192
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:43,840
experience, you not only have to
have the experience, you have to

1193
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:46,920
know that you have the
experience, and that's already

1194
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:48,920
meta consciousness.
It's not consciousness.

1195
01:12:49,240 --> 01:12:51,480
My cat doesn't know he's tasting
the food.

1196
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:56,200
He's tasting the food, but
doesn't doesn't know that he's

1197
01:12:56,280 --> 01:13:00,280
tasting the food because he
doesn't have that split between

1198
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:03,740
object and subject that we have.
So that's meta cognition, meta

1199
01:13:03,740 --> 01:13:06,540
consciousness.
Have you made the disclaimer?

1200
01:13:06,540 --> 01:13:08,140
We should continue to look at
that.

1201
01:13:08,500 --> 01:13:12,300
We should continue to take drugs
seriously.

1202
01:13:12,740 --> 01:13:16,260
I take an antidepressant.
It's enough label used for

1203
01:13:16,380 --> 01:13:19,820
extreme tinnitus.
I take amitriptyline, which is a

1204
01:13:20,100 --> 01:13:26,860
tricyclic, culinarygic.
Yeah, antidepressive.

1205
01:13:28,340 --> 01:13:31,100
It helps my tinnitus.
It does reduce my tinnitus.

1206
01:13:31,620 --> 01:13:34,500
It also helps deal with with my
anxiety.

1207
01:13:35,220 --> 01:13:39,500
So I am not going to stand here
and tell you that drugs are

1208
01:13:39,500 --> 01:13:42,340
farce.
Some drugs are farce.

1209
01:13:43,020 --> 01:13:47,340
You can question whether SSR
I's, given the data we now have,

1210
01:13:47,500 --> 01:13:50,140
should have been released given
that the improvement of a

1211
01:13:50,140 --> 01:13:55,900
placebo is so incredibly small.
I don't think that holds for

1212
01:13:55,900 --> 01:13:59,140
tricyclic antidepressants.
I know that from first person

1213
01:13:59,140 --> 01:14:04,190
experience, and the way I regard
it is, it's simple.

1214
01:14:04,190 --> 01:14:06,710
For an idealist, there is only
mind.

1215
01:14:07,390 --> 01:14:10,990
So that little pill, I thought
every evening.

1216
01:14:11,430 --> 01:14:14,870
That pill is what a
transpersonal process, mental

1217
01:14:14,870 --> 01:14:17,870
process in nature looks like
when represented on my

1218
01:14:17,870 --> 01:14:21,110
dashboard.
When I ingest that mental

1219
01:14:21,110 --> 01:14:25,510
process that was out there and I
put it inside me, that mental

1220
01:14:25,510 --> 01:14:29,110
process interferes with the
mental processes that were

1221
01:14:29,110 --> 01:14:31,990
already in me, namely my
anxiety.

1222
01:14:32,830 --> 01:14:36,470
And that one mental process has
a cause effect on the other is

1223
01:14:36,470 --> 01:14:38,630
trivial.
Your thoughts modulate your

1224
01:14:38,630 --> 01:14:40,870
emotions.
Your emotions modulate your

1225
01:14:40,870 --> 01:14:43,630
thoughts.
A pill of amitriptyline

1226
01:14:43,630 --> 01:14:48,110
modulates my anxiety because
that pill is a representation.

1227
01:14:48,110 --> 01:14:52,070
The thing in itself is an
originally transpersonal mental

1228
01:14:52,070 --> 01:14:55,710
process that was out there, and
by ingesting it I brought it

1229
01:14:55,790 --> 01:14:59,670
into the boundaries of my
individual mind, my dissociated

1230
01:14:59,670 --> 01:15:02,890
self.
I take drugs seriously.

1231
01:15:02,970 --> 01:15:09,970
I think psychiatric drugs are
they can be lifesavers and and

1232
01:15:09,970 --> 01:15:16,090
they have been lifesavers.
I think brain surgery works.

1233
01:15:16,090 --> 01:15:19,010
We know that empirically.
And if somebody comes up with

1234
01:15:19,010 --> 01:15:22,210
the metaphysics that has as an
implication that no brain

1235
01:15:22,210 --> 01:15:24,770
surgery should work, then that
metaphysics is false.

1236
01:15:25,410 --> 01:15:29,700
My metaphysics doesn't do that
because the surgeon's scalpel is

1237
01:15:29,700 --> 01:15:32,620
what a mental process looks like
that you're bringing to

1238
01:15:32,620 --> 01:15:34,580
interfere with your own mental
processes.

1239
01:15:34,940 --> 01:15:38,020
And your own your own mental
processes look like your brain.

1240
01:15:38,900 --> 01:15:42,060
So this is all the dashboard
representation of a dance of

1241
01:15:42,060 --> 01:15:45,180
mental processes that can be
very helpful to the individual.

1242
01:15:46,060 --> 01:15:50,980
Now, having said all this, the
difference the difference is the

1243
01:15:50,980 --> 01:15:55,140
following.
If your brain actually is not

1244
01:15:55,140 --> 01:15:59,090
the generator of your mind, but
what your mind looks like when

1245
01:15:59,090 --> 01:16:06,090
represented on a dashboard.
Now psychological therapy is the

1246
01:16:06,730 --> 01:16:11,090
is the third axis of treatment.
Yes, it's not only popping a

1247
01:16:11,090 --> 01:16:14,250
pill, it's not only a scalpel
cutting into your brain.

1248
01:16:14,770 --> 01:16:19,730
Talk therapy should not be
considered a placebo only thing,

1249
01:16:21,130 --> 01:16:25,570
because if through talking you
are modulating your inner mental

1250
01:16:25,570 --> 01:16:29,820
processes, then you're doing the
same thing as a pill or a

1251
01:16:29,820 --> 01:16:31,700
scalpel, just in a different
way.

1252
01:16:32,020 --> 01:16:34,820
You see what I mean?
And we there are.

1253
01:16:36,260 --> 01:16:40,580
There is literature showing, for
instance, that there is one very

1254
01:16:40,580 --> 01:16:45,340
well documented case of
hypnosis, curing widespread

1255
01:16:45,420 --> 01:16:49,860
warts, you know, warts caused by
a virus on the surface of the

1256
01:16:49,860 --> 01:16:53,380
skin.
And some people have a very weak

1257
01:16:53,380 --> 01:16:57,060
immune response to that virus
and they are covered in warts.

1258
01:16:57,420 --> 01:17:00,020
There was a guy in in in
Southeast Asia that was called

1259
01:17:00,020 --> 01:17:03,780
the tree man because his skin
looked like looked like bark.

1260
01:17:05,300 --> 01:17:08,900
And there is at least one very
well documented case in which

1261
01:17:08,900 --> 01:17:13,660
hip noses got rid of warts, hip
noses got rid of the results of

1262
01:17:13,660 --> 01:17:17,820
a virus infection.
There are very well documented

1263
01:17:17,820 --> 01:17:22,420
cases very recently of placebo
knee surgery getting rid of knee

1264
01:17:22,420 --> 01:17:26,400
pain, Yeah, which is the
archetypical instance of a very

1265
01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:29,320
physical problem.
I think another great example is

1266
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:31,480
cognitive behavioral therapy for
insomnia.

1267
01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:36,960
When you look at the rates of
zolpidem use or benzodiazepines

1268
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:41,080
to try and get people to sleep,
the longterm rates of just

1269
01:17:41,080 --> 01:17:45,000
cognitive behavioral therapy and
talk therapy, the the rates of

1270
01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:47,600
decreasing insomnia is much
better.

1271
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:50,120
I mean you do, it's a much
better longterm solution.

1272
01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:53,430
So that's another way.
In which psychotherapy actually

1273
01:17:53,430 --> 01:17:55,710
is a lot more beneficial.
Exactly.

1274
01:17:55,990 --> 01:17:59,030
So if you ask me where this is
going, where analytic idealists

1275
01:17:59,030 --> 01:18:03,310
would bring this, to summarize
it in a very clear way, it will

1276
01:18:03,310 --> 01:18:06,910
bring down the wall between
psychological therapy and

1277
01:18:06,910 --> 01:18:09,950
psychiatry.
This division is merely

1278
01:18:09,950 --> 01:18:12,790
epstemic.
It has no ontological grounding

1279
01:18:12,790 --> 01:18:15,990
whatsoever.
Talk therapy is a form of taking

1280
01:18:15,990 --> 01:18:18,270
a pill.
It is a form of cutting into a

1281
01:18:18,270 --> 01:18:21,310
brain, and we have all kinds of
clues about this.

1282
01:18:21,310 --> 01:18:26,550
We call it neuroplasticity.
So that's one case in your

1283
01:18:26,550 --> 01:18:29,390
profession in which I think
things would change.

1284
01:18:29,390 --> 01:18:32,310
We would stop regarding the body
as a mechanism and doctors as

1285
01:18:32,430 --> 01:18:36,430
car mechanics, because that's
too confining A paradigm.

1286
01:18:36,430 --> 01:18:40,150
We are leaving too many tools
off the table the moment we have

1287
01:18:40,150 --> 01:18:42,990
this prejudice and we act
according to this prejudice.

1288
01:18:44,430 --> 01:18:48,520
Health.
We regard health as there is

1289
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:50,640
psychological health and there
is physical health.

1290
01:18:51,120 --> 01:18:55,120
Idealism says they are one and
the same thing, and therefore

1291
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:57,960
both approaches from both sides
make sense.

1292
01:18:58,280 --> 01:19:02,840
How far can you can we bring
wellbeing if we didn't make that

1293
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:05,880
distinction anymore?
If we allowed for the synergies

1294
01:19:06,280 --> 01:19:11,300
to be researched, studied and
applied without prejudice, I

1295
01:19:11,300 --> 01:19:13,860
would go as far as to say.
And there there there was a

1296
01:19:13,860 --> 01:19:17,540
group of doctors who tried to
propose it 10 or 15 years ago,

1297
01:19:17,540 --> 01:19:20,940
and I think they got shut down
for very easy to understand

1298
01:19:20,940 --> 01:19:23,860
reasons.
But we have to leverage the

1299
01:19:23,860 --> 01:19:26,660
placebo effect.
Even if physicalism is

1300
01:19:26,660 --> 01:19:29,620
discombobulated by it doesn't
know how it can happen.

1301
01:19:29,780 --> 01:19:32,820
It doesn't matter that we don't
know how we know it happens.

1302
01:19:32,900 --> 01:19:35,940
All right, So even if you're a
physicalist and you think it

1303
01:19:35,940 --> 01:19:37,740
shouldn't happen, well, you
know, it happens.

1304
01:19:37,740 --> 01:19:41,060
So let's use it.
Let's leverage it.

1305
01:19:41,060 --> 01:19:43,620
The problem is that it would
entail doctors lying to

1306
01:19:43,620 --> 01:19:47,060
patients.
But you see, before 20th century

1307
01:19:47,060 --> 01:19:49,420
medicine, that's all doctors
had.

1308
01:19:51,460 --> 01:19:54,580
No, the The best doctors were
the doctors with good, bad

1309
01:19:54,580 --> 01:19:56,420
manners.
As bedside manners, as they

1310
01:19:56,420 --> 01:19:59,500
would they would call, they
would say doctors with a lot of

1311
01:19:59,580 --> 01:20:04,500
personal presence would come to
the patient and say, I studied

1312
01:20:04,500 --> 01:20:08,620
you, I heard you and you will be
fine.

1313
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:10,840
Yes.
Now they had no clue what they

1314
01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:13,920
were talking about.
No, they would order no blood

1315
01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:17,800
screening, no urine screening,
no Xrays, nothing.

1316
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:21,080
They didn't have a clue.
But lo and behold, 2 days later

1317
01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:22,800
the patient would stand up.
I may.

1318
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:24,920
Be fine.
We see this today, but not, I

1319
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:27,800
mean, you get a bunch of doctors
together.

1320
01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:32,680
They set up these Ivy bars, Ivy
drips, and they put you in a

1321
01:20:32,680 --> 01:20:35,840
nice lounge culture.
They put up just a saline drip.

1322
01:20:36,290 --> 01:20:38,810
Tell you this is going to help
your joints, your body, you're

1323
01:20:38,810 --> 01:20:41,610
going to feel revitalized.
And when you leave, you feel

1324
01:20:41,610 --> 01:20:44,650
revitalized.
It's yeah, it's just the way it

1325
01:20:44,650 --> 01:20:46,930
is.
The placebo effect works and we

1326
01:20:46,930 --> 01:20:50,170
just did a lot of useless, so we
should use it.

1327
01:20:50,450 --> 01:20:53,210
But we cannot use it like this
group of doctors was putting

1328
01:20:53,210 --> 01:20:56,170
forward a while ago because
there is research saying that

1329
01:20:56,450 --> 01:20:59,250
the placebo effect works even if
you know it's placebo.

1330
01:20:59,490 --> 01:21:02,290
Yeah, but the the, the
efficiency is reduced.

1331
01:21:02,870 --> 01:21:06,510
I would go out on a limb and say
let's leverage it fully.

1332
01:21:07,150 --> 01:21:10,190
Let's have doctors lie to the
patient.

1333
01:21:10,190 --> 01:21:14,190
It's part of the professional
skill of the Doctor Who to know

1334
01:21:14,190 --> 01:21:17,030
when it's safe to lie to the
patient.

1335
01:21:17,510 --> 01:21:20,430
So learn.
So not just blindly go about it

1336
01:21:20,710 --> 01:21:24,150
unethically, but to actually
apply some reason you know.

1337
01:21:24,150 --> 01:21:30,350
It would even go further and say
part of the reasons why cancer

1338
01:21:30,350 --> 01:21:35,440
is so deadly, it's because when
you get the diagnosis you know

1339
01:21:35,480 --> 01:21:39,440
you are going to die and then it
lo and behold, it kills you.

1340
01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:42,840
Because research shows that if
you do an autopsy in people who

1341
01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:46,480
died of car accidents, the most
unbiased sampling of the

1342
01:21:46,480 --> 01:21:50,440
population you can have, because
everybody gets into a car, half

1343
01:21:50,440 --> 01:21:54,400
the people have mini tumors.
Cancer is mini tumors, which is

1344
01:21:54,400 --> 01:21:57,120
much higher than the statistics
would suggest.

1345
01:21:58,480 --> 01:22:02,850
And the conclusion is most of
those mini tumors go nowhere.

1346
01:22:03,010 --> 01:22:07,530
They resolve by themselves, but
you know you will be a very

1347
01:22:07,530 --> 01:22:11,610
unlucky person if you happen to
go for a full body screen and

1348
01:22:11,610 --> 01:22:14,210
they catch one of the mini
tumors and they tell you you

1349
01:22:14,210 --> 01:22:17,490
have cancer, that one is not
going to resolve itself.

1350
01:22:18,050 --> 01:22:19,850
That one is going to kill you.
Imminent.

1351
01:22:22,090 --> 01:22:25,490
Yeah.
So you know, this would change

1352
01:22:25,610 --> 01:22:30,010
if idealism is is embodied, not
only accepted, but invited.

1353
01:22:30,290 --> 01:22:31,930
And I'm talking only about
medicine.

1354
01:22:32,250 --> 01:22:34,690
Many other things would change
the outlook on life, our

1355
01:22:34,690 --> 01:22:37,290
understanding of the meaning of
life, the way we relate to

1356
01:22:37,330 --> 01:22:40,010
others, to animals, to nature at
large.

1357
01:22:40,250 --> 01:22:42,210
I want to I want you to touch on
that because ideally this

1358
01:22:42,210 --> 01:22:45,890
podcast is also about how does
this theoretical and practical

1359
01:22:45,890 --> 01:22:49,490
difficulty of the mind body
problem impact spirituality,

1360
01:22:49,490 --> 01:22:54,530
morality, mortality.
How would the your view now

1361
01:22:54,530 --> 01:23:01,190
impact these aspects of I think
what we call life, metabolism,

1362
01:23:01,310 --> 01:23:05,750
Biology is the dashboard
representation of a dissociative

1363
01:23:05,750 --> 01:23:10,270
process in the mind of nature.
That field of subjectivity that

1364
01:23:10,270 --> 01:23:12,870
I think underlies on nature.
We know people undergo

1365
01:23:12,870 --> 01:23:17,670
dissociation, dissociative
identity disorder in the DSM5.

1366
01:23:18,350 --> 01:23:21,110
We know that dissociation looks
like something that's the work

1367
01:23:21,110 --> 01:23:23,430
of Yolanda Schlemph in 2014 in
the Netherlands.

1368
01:23:23,790 --> 01:23:27,720
You know, FM RI scans of people
with the ID and actors

1369
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:30,920
pretending to be dissociated.
You can discern the two very

1370
01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:34,720
easily blind without knowing the
actual patient.

1371
01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:40,960
So I think it's a very similar
phenomenon that happens in that

1372
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:44,160
field of subjectivity underlying
on nature at form of

1373
01:23:44,160 --> 01:23:47,080
dissociation.
And that also looks like

1374
01:23:47,080 --> 01:23:51,040
something just like the
dissociative processes in the

1375
01:23:51,040 --> 01:23:54,200
brain of a patient with the ID.
They look like something on

1376
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:57,370
their brain scan.
A higher level of dissociation

1377
01:23:57,370 --> 01:24:00,650
in nature looks like something
what metabolism.

1378
01:24:01,090 --> 01:24:02,970
Life.
I think that's what life is.

1379
01:24:02,970 --> 01:24:05,610
Life is what the dissociative
process in the mind of nature

1380
01:24:05,610 --> 01:24:08,170
looks like.
Death is the end of life.

1381
01:24:08,410 --> 01:24:10,050
So it's the end of the
dissociation.

1382
01:24:10,090 --> 01:24:13,970
It's the reintegration of your
cognitive inner space into a

1383
01:24:13,970 --> 01:24:19,170
broader cognitive context.
And if you understand that this

1384
01:24:19,170 --> 01:24:24,690
way, then two things happen.
One, your personal self ends

1385
01:24:24,690 --> 01:24:27,210
because your personal self is
the dissociation.

1386
01:24:29,330 --> 01:24:33,410
But it ends in the same way that
your dream avatar ends.

1387
01:24:33,450 --> 01:24:37,050
When you wake up, your dream
avatar is a dissociative process

1388
01:24:37,050 --> 01:24:39,810
within your own mind.
You think you're your dream

1389
01:24:39,810 --> 01:24:43,210
avatar and you think you are not
doing the rest of the dream, the

1390
01:24:43,210 --> 01:24:45,450
world of the dream.
You think we inhabit it.

1391
01:24:46,090 --> 01:24:48,890
When you wake up, your dream
avatar is dead and you realize,

1392
01:24:48,890 --> 01:24:52,600
oh, I was doing the whole thing.
I was never the dream avatar.

1393
01:24:52,600 --> 01:24:56,840
The dream avatar was me.
And you don't go and mourn the

1394
01:24:56,840 --> 01:25:01,080
death of your dream avatar.
So yes, I think our personal

1395
01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:03,240
self ends.
Hooray to that.

1396
01:25:03,360 --> 01:25:07,640
This is a state of consciousness
supremely vulnerable to

1397
01:25:07,640 --> 01:25:12,280
suffering.
So maybe that's a prejudice of

1398
01:25:12,280 --> 01:25:14,160
mine.
I I like this idea.

1399
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:16,360
I believe it for objective
reasons.

1400
01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:19,440
But in addition to believing it,
I like this idea very much.

1401
01:25:20,220 --> 01:25:24,460
But your eyeness, what
Schopenhauer described as the

1402
01:25:24,460 --> 01:25:28,060
one eye of the world that looks
out from every creature, and

1403
01:25:28,060 --> 01:25:31,940
this is a precise quote of the
of the one of the translations

1404
01:25:32,380 --> 01:25:38,260
of Schopenhauer's work, Then the
real you doesn't end for the

1405
01:25:38,260 --> 01:25:40,580
same reason that the real you
survives.

1406
01:25:40,580 --> 01:25:45,060
You're waking up in the morning.
Nothing is lost, Just your state

1407
01:25:45,060 --> 01:25:48,180
of consciousness changes.
I think that's death, but it's

1408
01:25:48,340 --> 01:25:51,830
it's changes life, this
understanding of death because

1409
01:25:52,030 --> 01:25:57,150
because now unlike the
physicalist notion that, for

1410
01:25:57,150 --> 01:26:01,070
instance, our emotions are just
side effects of brain Physiology

1411
01:26:01,070 --> 01:26:04,430
that had an evolutionary
advantage, even things like

1412
01:26:04,430 --> 01:26:06,790
empathy.
If you look at the work of

1413
01:26:06,790 --> 01:26:09,510
Antonio Damascure, even empathy
is supposed to have an

1414
01:26:09,510 --> 01:26:13,710
evolutionary advantage because
it gives you social cachet to

1415
01:26:13,710 --> 01:26:17,470
help another member of the
tribe, so you stand a better

1416
01:26:17,470 --> 01:26:20,700
chance to survive because the
rest of the tribe, we want to

1417
01:26:20,700 --> 01:26:25,820
help you, since you helped them.
But the feeling of empathy, the

1418
01:26:25,820 --> 01:26:31,020
feeling of suffering along like
I suffer along with Ukrainians,

1419
01:26:31,900 --> 01:26:35,340
at least I did for the first
three weeks after the war to

1420
01:26:35,340 --> 01:26:37,940
point to the type of
dysfunctional that's suffering a

1421
01:26:37,940 --> 01:26:42,140
longest is the byproduct.
It it's for no reason, It's

1422
01:26:42,140 --> 01:26:44,940
useless.
So why will you make an effort

1423
01:26:45,260 --> 01:26:49,590
to face and integrate your
traumas, your demons, the

1424
01:26:49,590 --> 01:26:53,270
skeletons in your closet?
Why will you even try to mature?

1425
01:26:53,910 --> 01:26:56,510
There's nothing to be gained.
Because once you're dead, all of

1426
01:26:56,510 --> 01:26:58,350
your experiential states are
gone.

1427
01:26:59,110 --> 01:27:02,230
All of your insights accumulated
through a lifetime of suffering.

1428
01:27:02,390 --> 01:27:06,350
They are for nothing.
They end because you know they

1429
01:27:06,350 --> 01:27:08,150
are.
They are side effects of brain

1430
01:27:08,150 --> 01:27:10,270
structure.
And if the brain is not there

1431
01:27:10,270 --> 01:27:12,670
anymore, it decomposes itself.
Then you're gone.

1432
01:27:12,950 --> 01:27:15,030
Then it's lost.
It's for nothing.

1433
01:27:15,380 --> 01:27:19,300
Suffering is for nothing.
Much maturing is for nothing.

1434
01:27:19,980 --> 01:27:23,060
The best thing you can do if you
want to accumulate something in

1435
01:27:23,060 --> 01:27:25,980
life, you're better off
accumulating pairs of shoes,

1436
01:27:26,500 --> 01:27:28,180
because they will survive your
death.

1437
01:27:28,820 --> 01:27:30,580
The only thing that exists is
matter.

1438
01:27:30,820 --> 01:27:33,780
So the only conceivable meaning
of life is to accumulate matter

1439
01:27:33,780 --> 01:27:38,300
for as long as you have right?
And as As for all the difficult

1440
01:27:38,300 --> 01:27:41,420
parts of things you're
suffering, well, try to distract

1441
01:27:41,420 --> 01:27:45,980
yourself away from them, SSRI.
That's the evil side of

1442
01:27:46,100 --> 01:27:47,740
psychiatry.
So don't.

1443
01:27:48,460 --> 01:27:51,820
So the great philosopher Madonna
was was right when she said, if

1444
01:27:51,820 --> 01:27:54,540
we're living in a material
world, Material Girl.

1445
01:27:54,940 --> 01:28:00,220
Yeah, I mean this.
This is not sad in that many

1446
01:28:00,220 --> 01:28:02,940
words, but you breathe it in our
culture.

1447
01:28:03,740 --> 01:28:09,180
We are in a culture in which in
which patterns of addiction have

1448
01:28:09,180 --> 01:28:13,250
become the way of life.
And when I say addiction, I

1449
01:28:13,250 --> 01:28:15,730
don't mean only alcohol
addiction or drug addiction.

1450
01:28:15,730 --> 01:28:19,850
I mean all the other addictions,
sugar, meat, television, sex,

1451
01:28:20,090 --> 01:28:26,370
porn and all the other
distraction, ego, ego, ego

1452
01:28:26,370 --> 01:28:27,970
massages.
People are many people are

1453
01:28:27,970 --> 01:28:31,850
addicted to that many, many as
CEO are addicted to that.

1454
01:28:33,650 --> 01:28:35,810
And it's because there is
nothing else.

1455
01:28:35,810 --> 01:28:40,170
Everything else become immature,
psychologically mature,

1456
01:28:40,210 --> 01:28:46,500
learning, accumulating wisdom,
insight, deriving or squeezing

1457
01:28:46,500 --> 01:28:50,220
water from the rock of
suffering, the chemical

1458
01:28:50,220 --> 01:28:55,060
transmutation of shit to gold,
which Young correctly said is a

1459
01:28:55,060 --> 01:28:57,980
psychological process.
It's a metaphor for the

1460
01:28:57,980 --> 01:29:02,940
psychological process of turning
suffering into wisdom, into

1461
01:29:02,940 --> 01:29:06,550
understanding, into becoming a
mature human being, All of that

1462
01:29:06,550 --> 01:29:11,390
which is off the table under the
premises of physicalism as a

1463
01:29:11,390 --> 01:29:13,790
metaphysics or materialism,
whatever you want to call it.

1464
01:29:14,470 --> 01:29:19,590
Now they are back on the table
in a way that gives us a totally

1465
01:29:19,590 --> 01:29:23,150
different perspective into life.
Because now, if we are

1466
01:29:23,150 --> 01:29:26,750
dissociative processes, why are
life?

1467
01:29:26,750 --> 01:29:28,870
Because that's what life is and
is an image of that

1468
01:29:28,870 --> 01:29:35,140
dissociation, the insight you
accumulate through a life of

1469
01:29:35,140 --> 01:29:39,500
suffering when you die.
Death being the end of the

1470
01:29:39,500 --> 01:29:42,500
dissociation, they are now
seeded into a broader cognitive

1471
01:29:42,500 --> 01:29:44,420
context.
It's a contribution to nature.

1472
01:29:44,780 --> 01:29:48,780
Which makes you wonder.
You know when when our ancestors

1473
01:29:48,780 --> 01:29:55,820
depicted Death or the Reaper as
a faceless figure carrying a

1474
01:29:55,820 --> 01:30:02,820
harvesting instrument, were they
not seeing something there?

1475
01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:07,720
Because that may be that may be
the closest metaphor.

1476
01:30:08,120 --> 01:30:11,920
You know I'm not for human
sacrifice because we are all

1477
01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:14,560
going to die anyway.
There is no reason to speed it

1478
01:30:14,560 --> 01:30:16,480
up, right?
So I'm.

1479
01:30:16,480 --> 01:30:20,160
I'm not for human sacrifice, or
for any sacrifice, or for

1480
01:30:20,160 --> 01:30:23,040
suicide.
I think it's our moral

1481
01:30:23,600 --> 01:30:28,480
obligation to make the best you
we can of the state.

1482
01:30:28,480 --> 01:30:34,300
That nature took 13.8 billion.
Well, 9.8 billion years to bring

1483
01:30:34,300 --> 01:30:38,340
about on this planet, so we
should we should milk it to the

1484
01:30:38,340 --> 01:30:41,180
end.
That said, I can understand the

1485
01:30:41,180 --> 01:30:44,900
intuition behind preliterate,
preliterate societies that

1486
01:30:44,900 --> 01:30:50,420
practiced sacrifice.
Because if you consider mind at

1487
01:30:50,420 --> 01:30:53,260
large the transpersonal mental
processes of nature, you call it

1488
01:30:53,260 --> 01:30:57,140
God for the sake of argument,
and you consider death the end

1489
01:30:57,140 --> 01:31:01,090
of a dissociative process in the
mind of the divinity, then

1490
01:31:01,090 --> 01:31:04,010
that's the way you make the
insight of a lifetime available

1491
01:31:04,010 --> 01:31:08,130
to God.
That's the sense in which

1492
01:31:08,650 --> 01:31:13,010
sacrifice is not a completely
arbitrary intuition.

1493
01:31:13,570 --> 01:31:19,450
It's definitely an immoral,
wrong, short sighted, despicable

1494
01:31:20,530 --> 01:31:22,810
implication derived from that
intuition.

1495
01:31:23,010 --> 01:31:28,340
But the intuition itself may
have a root in nature, and if

1496
01:31:28,340 --> 01:31:31,340
you embody this understanding,
you no longer collect shoes,

1497
01:31:31,340 --> 01:31:34,820
man.
What you collect is insight and

1498
01:31:34,820 --> 01:31:38,580
you no longer make your life
about you, which is the greatest

1499
01:31:38,580 --> 01:31:43,100
insanity of the Western mind.
And by the Western mind, I don't

1500
01:31:43,100 --> 01:31:45,540
mean only the European mind.
South Africa is a western

1501
01:31:45,540 --> 01:31:47,900
country.
Brazil is a western country.

1502
01:31:48,700 --> 01:31:51,260
I mean, South Africa is a
Western country for sure.

1503
01:31:51,900 --> 01:31:54,220
Yeah.
The greatest insanity of the

1504
01:31:54,220 --> 01:32:00,020
Western mind is to think that my
life is about me, that your life

1505
01:32:00,020 --> 01:32:02,580
is about you and his life is
about him.

1506
01:32:03,340 --> 01:32:06,940
Because we are part of nature,
our lives are not about us.

1507
01:32:07,260 --> 01:32:09,940
And one of the understandings
you get is not only that, you

1508
01:32:09,940 --> 01:32:13,180
want to collect insights and
become mature, because that's

1509
01:32:13,180 --> 01:32:15,460
your contribution to the
divinity.

1510
01:32:15,460 --> 01:32:18,620
If you want to use that word,
that's the sense of your life.

1511
01:32:18,860 --> 01:32:23,060
But not only that your life is
not about you, it's about that

1512
01:32:23,060 --> 01:32:26,500
contribution.
Your life is about what nature

1513
01:32:26,500 --> 01:32:30,820
wants to do through you.
And the moment you embody this,

1514
01:32:30,820 --> 01:32:34,860
the moment it sinks into the
body, is the moment when you

1515
01:32:34,860 --> 01:32:38,140
will no longer suffer from the
anxiety of knowing that you're

1516
01:32:38,140 --> 01:32:41,340
not happy yet.
And you have to be happy because

1517
01:32:41,340 --> 01:32:42,940
the other guys are happy on
social media.

1518
01:32:42,940 --> 01:32:44,340
Look at the photos they
published.

1519
01:32:44,700 --> 01:32:46,060
But you don't manage to be
happy.

1520
01:32:46,060 --> 01:32:49,500
So something is wrong with you.
Something is terribly wrong with

1521
01:32:49,500 --> 01:32:51,380
you.
So you pile suffering.

1522
01:32:51,940 --> 01:32:54,140
You pile meta suffering on top
of suffering.

1523
01:32:54,500 --> 01:32:58,700
Now if you understand what
probably actually is going on,

1524
01:32:59,620 --> 01:33:04,900
that stops that spiral of mass
suffering stops because you

1525
01:33:04,900 --> 01:33:06,460
understand one it's not about
you.

1526
01:33:06,460 --> 01:33:08,580
Has never been in or we will
ever be.

1527
01:33:08,860 --> 01:33:13,180
And every moment of suffering is
nature trying to get somewhere

1528
01:33:13,540 --> 01:33:18,260
through you.
And the the only thing that is

1529
01:33:18,260 --> 01:33:21,060
expected from you is to pay
attention.

1530
01:33:22,660 --> 01:33:25,020
That's the sum total of a life
well lived.

1531
01:33:25,580 --> 01:33:28,260
Pay attention.
That's it.

1532
01:33:28,660 --> 01:33:36,020
If you grasp that, what would
happen to you is you stop

1533
01:33:36,100 --> 01:33:42,020
watching broadcast television
because it's just distraction.

1534
01:33:42,460 --> 01:33:44,900
It's nonsensical.
Like it's Socrates.

1535
01:33:44,900 --> 01:33:47,460
I mean an unexamined life is a
life not worth living?

1536
01:33:48,220 --> 01:33:52,500
Yes, yes.
Socrates was had his eyes on the

1537
01:33:52,500 --> 01:33:55,740
ball, for many of these had his
eyes on the ball.

1538
01:33:56,630 --> 01:34:01,670
Western culture was born with
its eyes on the ball, and then

1539
01:34:01,670 --> 01:34:05,230
from Aristotle on it's a
downhill disaster.

1540
01:34:06,270 --> 01:34:09,830
But every now and then somebody
bumps against the what's

1541
01:34:09,830 --> 01:34:13,190
actually going on again and they
tend to write books about it.

1542
01:34:13,510 --> 01:34:16,710
Cunt bumps against against it.
Shoben Hauer bumps against it.

1543
01:34:18,950 --> 01:34:21,670
Jones coaches are agenda in the
9th century.

1544
01:34:21,790 --> 01:34:26,950
Bumped against it.
I want to give you some books.

1545
01:34:26,990 --> 01:34:32,670
Your names.
Nicholas von Ques German

1546
01:34:32,670 --> 01:34:34,590
philosopher from the 15th
century.

1547
01:34:34,590 --> 01:34:38,150
He was also a cardinal of the
Catholic Church.

1548
01:34:38,950 --> 01:34:41,790
He had his iron.
He bumped against it as well.

1549
01:34:42,270 --> 01:34:43,990
Lots of people bumped against
it.

1550
01:34:44,150 --> 01:34:49,230
Young bumped against it.
So we we are not totally lost.

1551
01:34:49,930 --> 01:34:52,450
Because when we are about to
sink into the darkest, the best,

1552
01:34:52,450 --> 01:34:55,850
somebody bumps against it again
and brings hope again.

1553
01:34:57,410 --> 01:35:00,530
You see the lighthouse far in
the horizon?

1554
01:35:00,530 --> 01:35:02,530
It's a beacon.
You're not there.

1555
01:35:02,570 --> 01:35:03,810
You're in the middle of the
storm.

1556
01:35:03,810 --> 01:35:07,130
You're about to drown, but you
see the lighthouse.

1557
01:35:07,450 --> 01:35:09,610
You see it's not completely
hopeless yet.

1558
01:35:10,450 --> 01:35:12,130
So yeah, let's see how this one
fold.

1559
01:35:12,490 --> 01:35:16,370
But not a while.
You bump against it as well with

1560
01:35:16,370 --> 01:35:18,810
the standing on the shoulders of
those giants.

1561
01:35:19,740 --> 01:35:23,060
What do you think?
And who do you think I've

1562
01:35:23,060 --> 01:35:26,540
provided with you, have provided
you, sorry, with some of the

1563
01:35:26,540 --> 01:35:29,860
most coherent logical counter
arguments to your view of

1564
01:35:29,860 --> 01:35:33,540
consciousness.
The best argument.

1565
01:35:33,860 --> 01:35:37,060
It doesn't mean that it's a good
argument, it's it's the last bad

1566
01:35:37,100 --> 01:35:39,860
argument.
The least bad argument is a

1567
01:35:39,860 --> 01:35:42,260
common one.
If I have to attribute it to one

1568
01:35:42,260 --> 01:35:47,090
person, I attribute it to
Heather Hassle, Mock philosopher

1569
01:35:47,090 --> 01:35:52,050
from Norway who is at University
of New York now, I think.

1570
01:35:54,370 --> 01:35:57,610
And she said that while we are
going down the staircase of a

1571
01:35:57,610 --> 01:36:01,490
building Shanghai, you're both
going to a dinner.

1572
01:36:01,890 --> 01:36:07,650
And then she said, well, the
reason to not by fully into your

1573
01:36:07,650 --> 01:36:13,410
idealism is that obviously we
are compound entities.

1574
01:36:14,110 --> 01:36:18,790
Our brain is made of cells, is
made of neurons, so we are not

1575
01:36:18,790 --> 01:36:21,150
unitary entities.
So consciousness cannot be

1576
01:36:21,150 --> 01:36:22,990
unitary.
She's a pancyclist.

1577
01:36:23,150 --> 01:36:24,870
So you can see where this is
coming from.

1578
01:36:25,950 --> 01:36:30,630
So consciousness has to be built
from smaller parts because the

1579
01:36:30,630 --> 01:36:35,030
subject is built out of smaller
parts because the brain is built

1580
01:36:35,030 --> 01:36:37,150
of neurons.
You see the line of reasoning?

1581
01:36:37,390 --> 01:36:41,350
The brain is made of neurons,
therefore the subject is made of

1582
01:36:41,350 --> 01:36:44,620
part, therefore consciousness is
made of parts.

1583
01:36:45,020 --> 01:36:49,700
That's the line of reasoning.
It seems to be a very good

1584
01:36:49,700 --> 01:36:54,620
argument against a non pen
psychist or non physicalist

1585
01:36:54,860 --> 01:36:58,540
interpretation of the facts.
The problem is the very first

1586
01:36:58,540 --> 01:37:04,900
step is wrong.
The brain is not made of

1587
01:37:04,900 --> 01:37:09,540
neurons.
This keyboard is made of keys.

1588
01:37:09,540 --> 01:37:13,660
Somebody put the keys in there.
This keyboard was assembled.

1589
01:37:13,980 --> 01:37:20,540
Its structure was defined from
the outside in and and and and

1590
01:37:20,540 --> 01:37:23,420
determined by the way the proper
parts of the keyboard were

1591
01:37:23,420 --> 01:37:25,500
brought together from the
outside.

1592
01:37:26,660 --> 01:37:30,140
A brain was not assembled.
A brain has grown.

1593
01:37:31,660 --> 01:37:36,340
The neurons are a nominal
carving out of the brain

1594
01:37:37,270 --> 01:37:40,270
apparent parts.
But nobody has ever brought the

1595
01:37:40,270 --> 01:37:42,590
neurons together to assemble a
brain.

1596
01:37:42,870 --> 01:37:46,190
So how did the brain come about?
Well, it started as a zygote.

1597
01:37:46,950 --> 01:37:49,630
Now, a zygote is not a compound
object in the sense that it's

1598
01:37:49,630 --> 01:37:54,590
not made of cells.
It is one cell that that's who

1599
01:37:54,590 --> 01:38:00,310
we were the day we were the the
egg from your mother was

1600
01:38:00,310 --> 01:38:03,590
fertilized by one sperm, sperm,
muscles, like from from your

1601
01:38:03,590 --> 01:38:05,630
father.
That's what we were.

1602
01:38:05,630 --> 01:38:09,250
We were a zygote and this
argument I just mentioned

1603
01:38:09,250 --> 01:38:12,090
doesn't apply to the zygote.
Obviously the zygotes not made

1604
01:38:12,090 --> 01:38:16,090
of cells, right?
So why is the brain made of

1605
01:38:16,090 --> 01:38:16,850
neurons?
How?

1606
01:38:16,850 --> 01:38:21,290
How did that happen?
What happened is that the zygote

1607
01:38:21,850 --> 01:38:28,650
developed fractal inner
structure through mitosis

1608
01:38:28,810 --> 01:38:31,010
through cell division.
Why do I say fractal?

1609
01:38:31,130 --> 01:38:34,690
Because mitosis is a way to
create internal structure in a

1610
01:38:34,690 --> 01:38:38,300
self similar way.
When a cell divides, the

1611
01:38:38,300 --> 01:38:42,820
resulting parts look like the
original cell and that's self

1612
01:38:42,820 --> 01:38:45,420
similar.
And one way to to say that it's

1613
01:38:45,420 --> 01:38:47,300
self similar is to say that it's
fractal.

1614
01:38:47,740 --> 01:38:54,060
So we still are the zygote, you
are the zygote, you are that

1615
01:38:54,060 --> 01:38:57,340
entity.
I am the zygote that was in the

1616
01:38:57,340 --> 01:39:03,540
womb of of my mother.
The difference is our zygotes

1617
01:39:04,210 --> 01:39:06,690
have developed fractal in their
structure.

1618
01:39:08,570 --> 01:39:12,130
They were not assembled, they
were not put together as parts,

1619
01:39:12,450 --> 01:39:15,010
They just complexified
internally.

1620
01:39:16,130 --> 01:39:18,410
So the brain is not made of
neurons.

1621
01:39:18,410 --> 01:39:21,890
That's a purely nominal
epistemic way to regard the

1622
01:39:21,890 --> 01:39:24,050
brain.
So we can talk about the part,

1623
01:39:24,050 --> 01:39:27,930
the seeming parts of the brain.
We have always been unitary

1624
01:39:28,290 --> 01:39:31,890
because we are still desired.
You see what I mean?

1625
01:39:32,390 --> 01:39:34,310
And you know you were a doctor,
right?

1626
01:39:34,390 --> 01:39:38,030
You had training in this.
But there are videos available.

1627
01:39:38,070 --> 01:39:41,510
There is a fantastic video from
National Geographic about the

1628
01:39:41,510 --> 01:39:46,070
growth of salamander from the
moment of recommendation to the

1629
01:39:46,070 --> 01:39:49,710
salamander swimming around.
And it shows the inner

1630
01:39:49,710 --> 01:39:53,830
differentiation of the zygote.
And if you follow that, you see

1631
01:39:53,950 --> 01:39:58,110
it's clearly a process of inner
differentiation, that there is

1632
01:39:58,150 --> 01:40:01,150
only one part to that thing and
it's the whole thing.

1633
01:40:02,310 --> 01:40:05,670
It's that one part that
complexifies itself internally.

1634
01:40:05,830 --> 01:40:10,110
I mean, a three day old human
embryo has eight cells, but it

1635
01:40:10,110 --> 01:40:13,990
has the same size as the
original zygote, exactly the

1636
01:40:13,990 --> 01:40:16,270
same size.
And it's useful to look at those

1637
01:40:16,270 --> 01:40:21,590
two images at that interval of
time because differences in size

1638
01:40:21,590 --> 01:40:25,270
don't come into play yet.
And they are the ones that

1639
01:40:25,270 --> 01:40:28,110
distract us and lead us down.
This Ave. of thinking that we

1640
01:40:28,110 --> 01:40:30,950
are made of parts.
A three day old embryo has

1641
01:40:30,950 --> 01:40:33,150
exactly the same size as the
original zygote.

1642
01:40:33,150 --> 01:40:37,350
If you put them side by side,
there is no way in hell you

1643
01:40:37,350 --> 01:40:40,550
would think that the three day
old embryo is made of parts.

1644
01:40:41,070 --> 01:40:44,190
It's playing obvious that it is
the original zygote that

1645
01:40:44,190 --> 01:40:47,550
developed internal membranes,
internal division, internal

1646
01:40:47,550 --> 01:40:49,990
differentiation in their
structure.

1647
01:40:50,310 --> 01:40:52,670
These are not parts that are
coming out of nowhere.

1648
01:40:53,030 --> 01:40:55,990
The only part is the zygote.
The only part is the whole thing

1649
01:40:56,470 --> 01:40:59,980
up until now.
That's the way to counter that.

1650
01:40:59,980 --> 01:41:03,900
There's another way to counter
that, which is the pen cycist.

1651
01:41:04,380 --> 01:41:08,340
Like head Head is a pen cycist.
The pen cycist makes the

1652
01:41:08,340 --> 01:41:10,900
following mistake.
It takes this.

1653
01:41:11,100 --> 01:41:17,460
He or she takes the structure of
the contents of perception to be

1654
01:41:17,460 --> 01:41:23,380
the structure of the perceiver,
and that leads to category

1655
01:41:23,380 --> 01:41:29,090
errors.
That the contents of perception,

1656
01:41:29,090 --> 01:41:33,290
matter in the colloquial sense
is made of particles doesn't

1657
01:41:33,290 --> 01:41:37,370
mean that the perceiver as a
subject is made of particles.

1658
01:41:38,370 --> 01:41:43,210
It only means that when the
perceiver is itself represented

1659
01:41:43,570 --> 01:41:47,650
as a content of perception, then
the representation is made of

1660
01:41:47,650 --> 01:41:51,610
particles.
A metaphor to understand this is

1661
01:41:51,610 --> 01:41:53,090
the following.
You're talking to me via

1662
01:41:53,090 --> 01:41:59,000
computer your.
You probably have a good enough

1663
01:41:59,000 --> 01:42:01,080
display that you don't see any
pixelation.

1664
01:42:01,080 --> 01:42:05,160
But if you were using a display
from 20 years ago, if you looked

1665
01:42:05,160 --> 01:42:08,560
closely, you would see that my
face in your screen is made of

1666
01:42:08,560 --> 01:42:12,480
little rectangles, each
rectangle with a single color.

1667
01:42:12,760 --> 01:42:19,000
Yes, so my representation on the
screen is made of parts, but

1668
01:42:19,000 --> 01:42:23,920
that doesn't mean that I the
thing represented as the part

1669
01:42:24,510 --> 01:42:29,830
myself made of little
rectangles, not the the.

1670
01:42:30,190 --> 01:42:33,870
The pixelation is an artifact of
the representation, not of the

1671
01:42:33,870 --> 01:42:36,710
thing represented.
For exactly the same reason that

1672
01:42:36,710 --> 01:42:39,670
the body is made of particles
doesn't mean that the subject

1673
01:42:39,670 --> 01:42:44,310
represented as the body is made
of parts, you see.

1674
01:42:44,790 --> 01:42:49,840
But why is this the least bad
argument against idealism?

1675
01:42:50,120 --> 01:42:52,960
Because it's the only one that
requires me to talk about about

1676
01:42:52,960 --> 01:42:54,960
it for 5 minutes instead of 30
seconds.

1677
01:42:54,960 --> 01:42:59,040
But.
But not of this.

1678
01:42:59,240 --> 01:43:02,480
There's so many things I want to
ask you, but obviously I want

1679
01:43:03,280 --> 01:43:04,880
this podcast.
I mean, it's a journey.

1680
01:43:04,880 --> 01:43:07,520
It's, it's, it's similar.
I mean, Kurt and I spoke about

1681
01:43:07,520 --> 01:43:08,760
this.
I know you've been a Curt's

1682
01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:12,960
podcast many times and it is
pretty much a project for me as

1683
01:43:12,960 --> 01:43:15,970
well.
For me, mine is the primary

1684
01:43:15,970 --> 01:43:17,770
focus is obviously the mind body
problem.

1685
01:43:17,770 --> 01:43:20,570
It's called mind body solution.
This is the goal.

1686
01:43:20,570 --> 01:43:23,690
So I would love to have you on
the podcast more often so that

1687
01:43:23,690 --> 01:43:25,490
we can discuss this in more
detail.

1688
01:43:26,010 --> 01:43:29,530
But before we conclude, the last
question I'd love to ask you is

1689
01:43:30,410 --> 01:43:32,610
in order for us to get to this
solution.

1690
01:43:33,570 --> 01:43:35,610
I mean, defining a problem you
once said.

1691
01:43:35,610 --> 01:43:37,610
I mean, I'm I'm paraphrasing you
now.

1692
01:43:38,250 --> 01:43:40,930
You said David Chalmers.
Obviously when he sprays this

1693
01:43:40,930 --> 01:43:43,690
problem, the hard problem of
consciousness, it was one step

1694
01:43:43,690 --> 01:43:49,050
closer to the solution.
So what do you think we can do?

1695
01:43:49,450 --> 01:43:53,410
Myself, young philosophers,
young scientists, anyone

1696
01:43:53,730 --> 01:43:57,050
entering this realm, this niche
of consciousness, what can we do

1697
01:43:57,050 --> 01:44:00,690
to get one step closer to the
mind body solution but keep

1698
01:44:00,690 --> 01:44:04,290
talking about it, keep
discussing, keep talking about

1699
01:44:04,290 --> 01:44:11,210
it, and recognizing that certain
declarations of final

1700
01:44:11,210 --> 01:44:15,610
conclusions that have been
issued 20 years ago are just

1701
01:44:15,610 --> 01:44:18,810
nonsensical.
These are old people, committed

1702
01:44:18,810 --> 01:44:21,930
to a certain view because of the
public, their public persona.

1703
01:44:22,290 --> 01:44:24,730
They don't, they do not know
what they're talking about.

1704
01:44:25,010 --> 01:44:30,090
The problem?
The questions are wide open and

1705
01:44:30,410 --> 01:44:35,090
I don't think even analytic
idealism is the ultimate answer,

1706
01:44:35,410 --> 01:44:38,990
and I don't sell it that way.
I put it forward as the most

1707
01:44:38,990 --> 01:44:42,190
tenable option on the table
today, many other options being

1708
01:44:42,230 --> 01:44:44,350
options being completely
untenable.

1709
01:44:44,350 --> 01:44:47,710
I think materialism and
constitutive fan psychism are

1710
01:44:47,710 --> 01:44:50,950
completely untenable and and
demonstrably so.

1711
01:44:52,990 --> 01:45:00,110
If we talk about it, we will get
used to people who have looked

1712
01:45:00,110 --> 01:45:04,870
into this exploring the
questions as opposed to the big

1713
01:45:04,870 --> 01:45:11,340
mouthed, big mouth, self
appointed representative of

1714
01:45:11,340 --> 01:45:16,220
scientism on television telling
you that no, we know this stuff,

1715
01:45:16,340 --> 01:45:22,460
no, no we don't and he doesn't.
When I started, I remember I I

1716
01:45:22,460 --> 01:45:28,460
mean, I came into this very much
a physicalist prior to my view.

1717
01:45:28,700 --> 01:45:30,780
I came into it with a very
emergentism.

1718
01:45:31,320 --> 01:45:33,000
View.
I thought at some point we go up

1719
01:45:33,000 --> 01:45:34,360
layers.
Then I went to sort of an

1720
01:45:34,360 --> 01:45:36,560
illusionist view.
I thought, OK, maybe perhaps

1721
01:45:36,560 --> 01:45:40,360
Dennett, Graziano, etc, Right.
I even wrote in my dissertation

1722
01:45:40,880 --> 01:45:44,920
an Essien consciousness based on
Illusionism and defended it

1723
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:47,880
actually.
But since starting this podcast

1724
01:45:47,880 --> 01:45:51,680
and chatting, reading more books
and understanding this more, I

1725
01:45:51,680 --> 01:45:53,400
can honestly say I'm agnostic.
At this point.

1726
01:45:53,400 --> 01:45:57,910
I have absolutely no idea.
What consciousness is, how to

1727
01:45:57,910 --> 01:45:59,670
how we're going to solve this
mind body problem?

1728
01:45:59,670 --> 01:46:02,670
All I know is that I'm
completely obsessed with this

1729
01:46:02,670 --> 01:46:06,590
quest and and I thank you so
much for being one of those

1730
01:46:06,590 --> 01:46:09,150
people who are contributing to
this field the way you do.

1731
01:46:09,710 --> 01:46:13,390
Is there anything you'd like to
say before we can do?

1732
01:46:13,390 --> 01:46:15,070
No you.
I mean, you already invited me

1733
01:46:15,070 --> 01:46:18,910
to come back.
If I if I return, I'll be very

1734
01:46:18,910 --> 01:46:20,870
honest with you.
One of the things that

1735
01:46:22,430 --> 01:46:26,380
contributes the most to not
having the most productive

1736
01:46:26,380 --> 01:46:31,420
conversation we could have is
the interviewers who respect for

1737
01:46:31,420 --> 01:46:34,500
me in the sense that the
interviewer doesn't want to

1738
01:46:34,500 --> 01:46:39,660
offend me, doesn't want to
overtly criticize me, or put

1739
01:46:39,660 --> 01:46:43,860
forward the harder questions, or
confess to his skepticism, or to

1740
01:46:43,860 --> 01:46:47,340
tell me I'm full of shit.
This is what hampers the

1741
01:46:47,340 --> 01:46:51,540
conversations the most because
it leaves the real questions

1742
01:46:51,830 --> 01:46:53,790
neatly under the carpet, if you
know what I mean.

1743
01:46:54,030 --> 01:46:57,150
And you were obviously, I mean I
don't know whether you know this

1744
01:46:57,150 --> 01:46:59,110
about the Dutch.
You're from South South Africa

1745
01:46:59,110 --> 01:47:03,870
so you you have some historical
routes with with the Dutch.

1746
01:47:04,910 --> 01:47:11,150
But for the Dutch criticism is,
is the wheel is the engine of of

1747
01:47:11,150 --> 01:47:14,310
progress.
Now we don't progress unless we

1748
01:47:14,310 --> 01:47:17,190
sort of overtly criticize.
We don't take this as an

1749
01:47:17,190 --> 01:47:20,690
offense.
In fact, if if somebody gives

1750
01:47:20,690 --> 01:47:24,690
you gives a presentation, spent
two hours of his life making

1751
01:47:24,690 --> 01:47:26,290
efforts to give you a
presentation.

1752
01:47:26,450 --> 01:47:29,490
If at the end you don't
criticize him, you are a jerk.

1753
01:47:29,570 --> 01:47:32,370
It's rude because yeah, you
wasted his time.

1754
01:47:33,130 --> 01:47:35,530
You see, if at the end you just
applause and say it's all great,

1755
01:47:35,530 --> 01:47:38,930
you know you are the presenter.
You go like, what, idiots.

1756
01:47:38,930 --> 01:47:42,090
I mean, they think they wasted
my time.

1757
01:47:42,210 --> 01:47:44,170
Basically it's rude to not
criticize.

1758
01:47:44,530 --> 01:47:47,630
So if you do this again, I
sensed throughout our

1759
01:47:47,630 --> 01:47:51,430
conversation today that there
were things you're holding back

1760
01:47:51,430 --> 01:47:52,830
on.
And now I understand it better.

1761
01:47:52,830 --> 01:47:55,390
You have a past, so why don't
you do it now?

1762
01:47:56,350 --> 01:48:00,990
Go all out, You go all out.
I think, I promise you, I'm not

1763
01:48:00,990 --> 01:48:03,510
going to be offended with you.
I think that's the best thing.

1764
01:48:03,510 --> 01:48:06,510
I think the cultural dynamic, I
mean, coming from South Africa,

1765
01:48:06,510 --> 01:48:08,830
when I'm interviewing a lot of
guests, they're all from

1766
01:48:08,830 --> 01:48:11,630
different various backgrounds,
different countries, different

1767
01:48:11,630 --> 01:48:13,630
cultures, and I think for me
it's the same.

1768
01:48:13,630 --> 01:48:16,670
I prefer us having an open
discussion.

1769
01:48:17,700 --> 01:48:19,380
It doesn't have to feel like a
debate.

1770
01:48:19,380 --> 01:48:20,900
It doesn't have to feel like
conflict.

1771
01:48:21,300 --> 01:48:25,340
All we have to do is just sort
of bounce off ideas that do not

1772
01:48:25,340 --> 01:48:29,140
correspond with each other and
see who sort of wins this this

1773
01:48:29,140 --> 01:48:32,940
game of tennis.
For me, it's not necessarily

1774
01:48:32,940 --> 01:48:35,980
that I'm going to come at you
with my own views, but I think

1775
01:48:35,980 --> 01:48:37,900
if we do do this again, I
definitely agree with what

1776
01:48:37,900 --> 01:48:40,620
you're saying is that I'm going
to come with more specific

1777
01:48:41,180 --> 01:48:46,800
counter arguments to to help you
actually solidify your points.

1778
01:48:47,320 --> 01:48:51,560
It gives me much more chance to
say what what I have to say.

1779
01:48:51,840 --> 01:48:52,840
Yeah, you.
Know what I mean?

1780
01:48:52,840 --> 01:48:56,240
I completely agree and I think
as an as an opener because I'm

1781
01:48:56,240 --> 01:48:57,640
obviously it's still the
beginning.

1782
01:48:57,640 --> 01:49:00,360
This is a long journey.
It's a project as as I was

1783
01:49:00,360 --> 01:49:04,160
saying, I mean I would love to
actually do exactly what you

1784
01:49:04,160 --> 01:49:07,520
said, and the fact that you've
given me that permission gives

1785
01:49:07,520 --> 01:49:12,720
me a lot of excitement for
around If you have to err, err

1786
01:49:12,760 --> 01:49:16,940
on the side of being rude as
opposed to not asking the real

1787
01:49:16,940 --> 01:49:19,260
question or not making the real
criticism, I can.

1788
01:49:19,540 --> 01:49:22,700
Successfully do that for you.
If that's exactly what you want.

1789
01:49:25,340 --> 01:49:26,820
You will not.
You're not going to offend me.

1790
01:49:26,820 --> 01:49:29,500
I mean, we've been talking for,
what, 2?

1791
01:49:29,500 --> 01:49:32,940
Hours 2 hours now.
So it's enough to have a reading

1792
01:49:32,940 --> 01:49:35,460
of you.
You are not the type of person

1793
01:49:35,940 --> 01:49:38,100
who will offend me.
There are people who can offend

1794
01:49:38,100 --> 01:49:40,380
me because I know they are
coming from agendas.

1795
01:49:40,860 --> 01:49:43,720
They are not here.
Honestly, they're not asking

1796
01:49:43,720 --> 01:49:47,560
honest questions.
You know, it's a game for them.

1797
01:49:47,880 --> 01:49:50,040
And I can be offended when
people are gaming me.

1798
01:49:50,040 --> 01:49:54,520
I was very offended with Zabina
Hossenfelder when she lied to my

1799
01:49:54,520 --> 01:49:58,320
face during a debate because I
thought, no, you don't expect

1800
01:49:58,640 --> 01:50:01,040
the person you're debating to to
lie.

1801
01:50:01,400 --> 01:50:06,640
You expect the person to debate
robustly, but not to lie on your

1802
01:50:06,640 --> 01:50:11,240
face, just to make it, to make
you look like an idiot and and

1803
01:50:11,240 --> 01:50:13,840
save her face.
So that offends me.

1804
01:50:13,840 --> 01:50:15,800
But I have a reading of you
already.

1805
01:50:15,800 --> 01:50:17,400
You're not going to do that.
No.

1806
01:50:17,400 --> 01:50:18,440
No.
So we can go all out.

1807
01:50:18,560 --> 01:50:20,480
My goal?
My goal with this podcast is

1808
01:50:20,480 --> 01:50:24,040
obviously to allow you to defend
your views as much as possible,

1809
01:50:24,040 --> 01:50:28,200
but that obviously requires me
to ask you well researched.

1810
01:50:28,780 --> 01:50:32,220
Questions that are direct but
also to play devil's advocate.

1811
01:50:32,220 --> 01:50:36,020
So if you want the devil within
me to come out and and yes,

1812
01:50:36,500 --> 01:50:38,220
that's it.
And advocate for him.

1813
01:50:38,220 --> 01:50:40,300
I'm definitely going to do that
in round two, yeah, that's

1814
01:50:40,380 --> 01:50:42,780
that's the way to make it
useful, to do it again.

1815
01:50:43,180 --> 01:50:46,180
Otherwise we would Just Dance
the same dance we just danced

1816
01:50:46,180 --> 01:50:48,940
right now and it has its value,
but we don't need to repeat.

1817
01:50:49,140 --> 01:50:52,420
It now I completely agree 100%
and there's so many questions I

1818
01:50:52,420 --> 01:50:55,540
actually do want to ask you.
But because we had to schedule

1819
01:50:55,540 --> 01:50:58,540
this meeting around my South
African, the problems with.

1820
01:50:58,780 --> 01:51:01,900
Politics down here and and the
fact that it's what's the time

1821
01:51:01,900 --> 01:51:06,420
it's 11:00 PM it handed me a
little bit with regards to what

1822
01:51:06,420 --> 01:51:08,140
I really wanted to delve deep
in.

1823
01:51:08,460 --> 01:51:11,060
And and I think that when it
comes around to I'm going to

1824
01:51:11,060 --> 01:51:13,780
come with a set group of
questions that I've thought

1825
01:51:13,780 --> 01:51:15,980
about myself.
I'm going to get the online

1826
01:51:15,980 --> 01:51:18,140
community to tell me what
they've really been wanting to

1827
01:51:18,140 --> 01:51:20,900
know.
And and I'm also going to look

1828
01:51:20,900 --> 01:51:23,340
at it every other counter
argument I could possibly find

1829
01:51:23,340 --> 01:51:26,740
online and and bring it at you
and I think that's what you.

1830
01:51:27,350 --> 01:51:28,870
And that's what you want.
Let's do that.

1831
01:51:28,870 --> 01:51:31,270
Yes, let's do that.
Then I'll come back.

1832
01:51:31,510 --> 01:51:34,310
Thank you so much, Bernardo.
Any final words?

1833
01:51:34,310 --> 01:51:37,190
Anything from your side you
wanna say regarding the mind

1834
01:51:37,190 --> 01:51:41,030
body problem before we leave?
No, I think we we covered what

1835
01:51:41,030 --> 01:51:43,390
we could cover today.
Thank you so much.

1836
01:51:43,390 --> 01:51:44,670
It was an absolute pleasure,
Bernardo.

1837
01:51:44,670 --> 01:51:47,830
I can't wait for Anne to, I'm
not pleasure excited them

1838
01:51:47,830 --> 01:51:50,870
before.
I'm looking forward to that too.

1839
01:51:51,890 --> 01:51:52,850
Cheers, Banana.
Thank you.

1840
01:51:52,850 --> 01:51:56,450
All right, Evan.
Have a great night and round two

1841
01:51:56,450 --> 01:51:57,770
is coming soon.
Yeah.

1842
01:51:58,170 --> 01:51:59,170
All right.
Thanks a lot.

1843
01:51:59,450 --> 01:52:00,850
Take care, man.
Cheers Banana.

1844
01:52:01,330 --> 01:52:01,650
Bye now.