Avi Loeb: Where is Everybody? Fermi's Paradox & the Scientific Search For Extraterrestrial Life

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Avi, I was thinking of a great
way to start this podcast, and

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the first person who came to
mind for me for some reason was

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Enrico Fermi.
And I think about the Fermi

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Paradox.
I mean, it's a very large

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extrapolation from a very local
observation.

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What comes to your mind?
Fermi Paradox.

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I mean, he's everyone.
Yeah.

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So in fact, I'm a great admirer
of Henrico Fermi, in part

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because he made many pioneering
contributions to experimental

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physics as well as to
theoretical physics.

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He was one of the rare
scientists who did both

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experiment and theory, and there
aren't many like it.

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In fact, I do believe that since
he was involved in the Manhattan

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Project, he was responsible for
the success.

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That you can see in the film
Oppenheimer.

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Oppenheimer was more of a
manager of that project, but if

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I had to guess who made it
happen, it would be Enrico

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Fermi.
But then when he was in Los

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Alamos during the Manhattan
Project around 1950, he had

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lunch with Edward Teller, who is
shown in the film actually and

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Enrico is also mentioned there.
And anyway, they had a

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conversation about the
extraterrestrials and

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discussing.
How many stars there are out

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there?
Billions of them.

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And so it's very likely that
there are things like us out

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there by now.
By the way we know that the a

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substantial fraction maybe 1/4
of all sun like stars have a

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planet the size of the earth
roughly the same separation.

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So.
So we know more that the

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substantiates the idea that.
Advertise that was not the

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smartest scientist, whoever
existed since The Big Bang.

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You know, the kind of arrogant
view that some of us have that

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maybe we are unique and special.
I don't think it's likely given

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the large numbers of
opportunities for other

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civilizations like us.
And also just reading the

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newspapers every morning shows
us, shows me that we are not

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necessarily the most
intelligent.

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The pinnacle of creation.
I can imagine much more

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intelligent.
Communities out there in

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interstellar space.
And at any event, Enrico Fermi

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was discussing it at lunch and
he said, where is everybody?

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And to me that's a very
presumptuous statement because

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he didn't use any telescope to
look out for them.

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Space is vast.
You know, 10s of thousands of

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light years just within the
Milky Way Galaxy alone, and you

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know, billions of light years
within the observable universe.

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And having lunch at Los Alamos,
looking around and asking where

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is everybody?
It's not really the right

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attitude.
It's just like someone single

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staying at home and saying I
don't have a partner.

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Look, there is nobody next to
me, but we all know that to find

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the partners you need to go out
to dating sites, you at least

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need to look through your
window, maybe leave your home.

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He didn't do any of that.
And so that's why I'm surprised

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that this question got so much
traction.

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Among people who have opinions,
okay, you're entitled to your

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opinions, but it's not.
It doesn't carry any substance

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you know.
And I think the only way to make

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progress in terms of gaining new
knowledge is to collect the

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evidence.
And so far for 70 years, we use

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the method that was pioneered by
Frank Drake, which was okay we

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have transmitted.
Radio signals.

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As a part of our communication
here on Earth, let's check if

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someone else is sending a signal
in our direction.

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And you know, that's again,
quite presumptuous assuming

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that.
Radio communication that we

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developed in the 1st century of
our science and technology would

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be used by others for extended
periods of time.

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And you know, it's just like
waiting for a phone call.

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You need a counterpart to be
active using exactly the method

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that you're using to listen for
it.

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And it's unlikely, you know, if
if there was another

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civilization a billion years ago
and now their signal is a

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billion light years away and
nobody.

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Guarantees that they're still
around, you know.

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So there must have been a lot of
civilizations that rose and

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fell, partly because their stars
died.

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You know, the sun will die in 7
billion years, and within 1

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billion years it will boil off
the oceans on Earth.

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So we wouldn't exist.
So there could have been things

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like us that by now perish.
But and listening you will hear

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nothing.
Silence, because there is nobody

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next to the the phone on the
other side.

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But another approach which is
better?

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Is searching for objects in our
backyard near our mailbox.

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Maybe there is a package out
there and for that the sender

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doesn't need to be alive.
Moreover, at least the packages

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that we used our spacecraft move
at the speed that allows them to

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be bound by gravity to the Milky
Way.

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So they keep accumulating over
time in interstellar space, just

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like plastics in the ocean.
And if you go out and search

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your backyard, you might find
find some space trash.

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That was technology.
Strictly manufactured.

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We haven't looked for that.
Only over the past decade we

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found the first interstellar
objects and we can talk more

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about it.
The first two appear to be

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outliers, unlike any of the
rocks that we are familiar with

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in the solar system, asteroids
or comets.

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So to me it implies that this is
a path that was not taken

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searching for objects that we
should take because there is

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always a chance for low hanging
fruit if nobody else picked it

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up.
And then that's what I'm trying

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to do.
Yeah, I mean this, this search,

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I mean your quest in general,
it's it's very admirable because

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I think we live in a time where
people are afraid to really

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speak their mind when they even
when it comes to scientific

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inquiry.
I mean, people are very afraid

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to put their head on the line
because once they're on the

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chopping block, they feel that
they lose their credibility.

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Was this search or is the search
for extraterrestrial

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intelligence or technology?
Is it?

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Has it been worth it for you?
Oh yeah.

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I mean, credibility in my book
is measured by the evidence.

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And if you are just expressing
your opinion, you know it's not.

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Worth as much as scientific
knowledge because it's basically

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your impression.
It's very easy to express your

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opinion.
You can just write a single

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tweet, one sentence, and that's
it.

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That's your opinion.
But it doesn't carry much

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substance.
And we all know of opinions that

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humans had for 1000 years, like
that the Earth is at the center

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of the universe.
And when Galileo looked through

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his telescope and found the
moons of Jupiter and argued,

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well, it.
Looks like we are not at the

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center because the moons are
moving around Jupiter, not

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around us.
People just didn't want to look

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at the data because they were
happier with their opinions and

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he was put on house arrest
today.

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He would have been cancelled on
social media and and you see it

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all over again.
Deja vu that people have very

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strong opinions.
The and not willing to do the

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hard work of looking for
evidence.

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And you know that is the only
thing that can lead to our

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salvation, that we would collect
data and about our environment

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and learn how to adapt to it and
not subscribe to our prejudice.

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And unfortunately what I find is
both.

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In the general public, you have
believers who have some very

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strong opinions about
extraterrestrials.

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They're not engaged in seeking
any evidence.

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They know that it's out there.
And they also may have had some

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superficial encounters that are
not, you know, to the level of

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scientific data in terms of the
quality of the data.

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And then?
At the same time, you have

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scientists within academia
ridiculing it.

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Again, they have an opinion and
they don't want to collect

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evidence to test it, which is
actually the scientific method.

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So they are not behaving as
scientists, even though they

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call themselves scientists.
And then taking the middle of

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the road, which is basically
associated with hard work,

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collecting evidence, you know, I
went to the Pacific Ocean.

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It took us months to plan this
expedition and one and a half

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million dollars, we went there,
we collected materials, brought

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it back, analyzed it, wrote the
scientific paper.

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All of this is a lot of work and
a lot of my colleagues were just

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expressing negativity all
across, you know, throughout the

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process before we went that we
will not find anything when we

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were there that I should.
Speak about it.

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When I came back that you know
this, we didn't really collect

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anything new that it was all,
you know, ocean, water,

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materials and.
This negativity is really not

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the way by which we we gain new
knowledge.

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Like we don't know what most of
the matter in the universe is,

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so we call it dark matter.
And then for decades scientists

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were engaged in doing
experiments trying to figure it

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out, putting billions of dollars
most recently in the in the

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context of the Large Hadron
Collider looking for super

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symmetry and saying okay, well,
maybe the dark matter is the

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lightest super symmetric
particle.

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We put billions of dollars.
We didn't find it.

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Nobody among those people who?
Who are expressing negativity

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about the expedition to the
Pacific Ocean that I took?

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Nobody says it's a complete
speculation that supersymmetry

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exists.
We shouldn't fund it at all and

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don't speak about it until you
find it and don't get funded.

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And we don't believe in anything
you say and this should not be

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studied.
Nobody says that.

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So it's being studied, it's
being funded, it's being talked

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about, and nothing is found.
And nobody says anything bad

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about it after nothing is found
for decades.

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And this is mainstream.
And this is speculative because

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we don't know if supersymmetry
exists.

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OK, so why is that legitimate?
And when you see an object that

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the US Space Command says it
comes from outside the solar

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system because of its high
speed.

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It it is considered mainstream
to say we don't believe the US

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government, this must be wrong.
It's a factor free off And the

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US Space Command, who gets
funded by more than NASA who is

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supposed to alert the US
President for any ballistic

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missile coming from North Korea
is telling in an official letter

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to NASA this object that the
99.999% came from the

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interstellar space.
Why is it that a year later

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astronomers would publish a
paper in the Astrophysical

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Journal?
Saying the US government data is

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wrong by a factor of 3 because
our model for stones cannot fit

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the data, so the data must be
wrong.

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So this object was moving
slower.

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This object was a stone from the
solar system.

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And not only that, but that's
exactly at the time when I'm

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coming back with materials from
the side of the meteor that show

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that it was not a stone, that
show that it's made of a

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composition different from all
the rocks in.

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The solar system that we are
familiar with, like on Earth,

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the moon and Mars.
And when a reporter comes to a

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quote UN quote expert, the
expert says, oh, the government

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data is wrong because we can't
fit it with a model for stones.

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And then another expert says,
well, they should check all the

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rocks on Earth before making a
statement that this composition

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is different from the rocks.
Like what a ridiculous statement

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to make by an expert, because we
checked the composition in terms

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of elements, found it to have
some elements hundreds of times

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up to 1000 times more than in
the standard of the solar system

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materials.
And for the expert to say we

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need to compare it to every rock
on Earth before we make a

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statement that it's not from the
solar system.

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Like we found isotopes that have
a very different abundance than

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for example iron isotopes than
any solar, any any rock on

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earth, because we know the
isotope ratio of iron on Earth.

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And so just this negativity
trying to step.

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On any flower that rises above
the grass level in the context

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of an object that came from
outside the solar system,

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whereas speculations that are
far less certain are being

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funded at billions of dollars.
Nobody says anything about them.

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So I call this approach of
people saying that anything in

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the sky must be stone.
So I call it the Stone Age of

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science because it's actually
anti scientific.

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What they have is a prejudice.
They have an opinion and not

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only that, they have an opinion,
they are not allowing other

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people to collect the evidence
and to analyze the materials.

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I mean talking about materials,
not opinions, and to share these

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results as saying, you know,
whatever they say.

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00:13:18,340 --> 00:13:20,740
I mean, we did not invent this
composition.

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It was found by an instrument at
the the laboratory of Stein

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00:13:24,620 --> 00:13:28,580
Jacobson, one of the most
respected geochemists worldwide.

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00:13:28,580 --> 00:13:30,700
He didn't have any bias, the any
agenda.

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We brought him the spheroes.
From that side, he analyzed

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00:13:33,820 --> 00:13:35,980
them.
What could be more scientific

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00:13:36,180 --> 00:13:38,780
than that?
And yet people who call

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00:13:38,780 --> 00:13:42,100
themselves scientists object to
that.

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00:13:42,260 --> 00:13:46,300
Now, not only that, they would
attack personally and.

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00:13:46,770 --> 00:13:51,010
There would be bloggers who did
not have a single scientific

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00:13:51,010 --> 00:13:55,770
paper published in the past
decade to two decades.

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00:13:56,010 --> 00:13:59,130
They call themselves
astrophysicists, some of them,

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00:13:59,490 --> 00:14:01,530
and they haven't published
anything.

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00:14:01,650 --> 00:14:04,890
So they are just like
commentators looking at the

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00:14:04,890 --> 00:14:09,010
soccer match and arguing, oh,
the players should have passed

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00:14:09,010 --> 00:14:12,730
the ball differently and science
is supposed to be done this and

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00:14:12,730 --> 00:14:15,330
that way.
Who are they to tell me when I'm

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00:14:15,370 --> 00:14:18,090
a practicing scientist?
They are not practicing what

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00:14:18,090 --> 00:14:22,770
they preach for they are
pretending to know how science

250
00:14:22,770 --> 00:14:25,770
should be done, what science
should say, but they are not

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00:14:25,770 --> 00:14:29,330
practicing it.
And to me that's a sign of

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00:14:29,370 --> 00:14:32,530
arrogance.
So you have people within

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00:14:32,530 --> 00:14:35,890
academia that are not engaged in
searching for evidence, but not

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00:14:35,890 --> 00:14:39,890
only that, opposing others who
search for evidence.

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00:14:40,050 --> 00:14:44,530
That's to them and.
An insult that a scientist would

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00:14:44,530 --> 00:14:46,930
get engaged.
And why would that be an issue?

257
00:14:47,330 --> 00:14:52,850
All they need to do is sit back,
relax, and let the evidence come

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00:14:52,850 --> 00:14:54,690
forward.
Why do they have to bring it

259
00:14:54,690 --> 00:14:57,970
down?
Not only not support it, but

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00:14:57,970 --> 00:15:00,570
actually speak to reporters
against it?

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00:15:01,610 --> 00:15:03,970
Yeah.
And the and at the same time

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00:15:03,970 --> 00:15:07,770
that's corroborated by people
who make superficial statements.

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00:15:08,050 --> 00:15:11,210
A1 sentence thing on Twitter
attacking person.

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00:15:11,410 --> 00:15:17,450
So all I'm trying to say is we
haven't evolved much over the

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00:15:17,450 --> 00:15:22,090
past four centuries since the
days of Galileo, because even we

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00:15:22,090 --> 00:15:26,340
haven't learned the lesson.
And you, you know, we pretend to

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00:15:26,340 --> 00:15:30,180
be more advanced.
The science is supposed to be

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00:15:30,980 --> 00:15:33,380
elevated to a higher level, but
it's not.

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00:15:33,540 --> 00:15:35,740
And I'm talking about people
within academia.

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00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:38,180
I'm not talking about people
that are not engaged.

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00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:42,580
So those are scientists who
studied rocks and they insist

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00:15:42,660 --> 00:15:46,020
that everything in the sky must
be rocks and they don't want any

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00:15:46,020 --> 00:15:50,020
other view to be heard.
And to me, you know, it's just

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00:15:50,340 --> 00:15:53,890
not the the way science.
Is supposed to be done.

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00:15:53,890 --> 00:15:56,810
And unfortunately, you know,
with this approach we will never

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00:15:56,810 --> 00:15:59,130
discover anything new.
Yes, exactly.

277
00:15:59,130 --> 00:16:02,210
I mean that mindset is very,
very ancient in that sense.

278
00:16:02,650 --> 00:16:05,050
And the reason why I asked you
that quick this question is

279
00:16:05,050 --> 00:16:09,570
because just yesterday I spoke
to Lawrence Krauss and we had a

280
00:16:09,570 --> 00:16:12,410
long discussion about just
general things in the nature of

281
00:16:12,410 --> 00:16:14,130
reality.
And when I posed the question to

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00:16:14,130 --> 00:16:16,530
the audience of mind body
Solution for the both of you in

283
00:16:16,530 --> 00:16:19,330
general questions to ask
Lawrence questions to ask you,

284
00:16:19,730 --> 00:16:23,770
everybody told me not to ask
Lawrence about UFO and everybody

285
00:16:23,770 --> 00:16:27,410
would beg me to ask you about it
and and you can clearly see this

286
00:16:27,410 --> 00:16:33,170
this almost this viewpoint that
everybody seems to perceive his

287
00:16:33,170 --> 00:16:35,810
perception of this and your
perception of this so

288
00:16:35,810 --> 00:16:37,810
differently.
And you can see it from when I

289
00:16:37,890 --> 00:16:40,610
asked him the same question
because when I brought it up he

290
00:16:40,610 --> 00:16:43,250
says he knows you and he's very
familiar with your work and I'm

291
00:16:43,250 --> 00:16:46,730
I'm not trying to cause any
drama or anything but he he did

292
00:16:46,730 --> 00:16:50,450
say that he's he likes your work
but not the new search for.

293
00:16:50,910 --> 00:16:54,310
So it's it's more like as if
you've entered the realm that's

294
00:16:54,310 --> 00:16:57,030
completely outside of science
and that's not really the case

295
00:16:57,310 --> 00:16:58,710
and and that's nothing, it's
the.

296
00:16:58,710 --> 00:17:02,390
Other way around, you know when
he deals with the multiverse, is

297
00:17:02,390 --> 00:17:06,270
that really science when we
can't really falsify ideas?

298
00:17:06,510 --> 00:17:10,349
I mean the whole point of much
of the specul, I mean he wrote a

299
00:17:10,349 --> 00:17:14,470
whole book about what triggered
The Big Bang and you know there

300
00:17:14,470 --> 00:17:16,630
is no way for us to test these
ideas.

301
00:17:16,790 --> 00:17:22,359
So he worked in many of.
You know the things that he

302
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,359
describes.
He worked on concepts that

303
00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,359
cannot be tested, cannot be
falsified.

304
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,680
You can't, you know, chop the
head of those ideas.

305
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:36,040
Using the experimental method by
collecting data and the

306
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,880
guillotine of experiments is the
way by which we learn something

307
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,200
new, because we rule out some
ideas and we accept others.

308
00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:46,390
And then, you know, that's the
work of a detective.

309
00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:51,910
When Sherlock Holmes suggested
that you know, you put all

310
00:17:51,910 --> 00:17:54,830
possibilities on the table and
then whatever remains after you

311
00:17:54,830 --> 00:17:56,630
collect the evidence must be the
truth.

312
00:17:56,870 --> 00:17:59,590
That's the way science is done.
Now what?

313
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,960
Larry Krauss would say, oh, you
know, I don't like this subject,

314
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,480
and I don't like the fact that
Avi is trying to look for

315
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,400
evidence because I think I know
the answer in advance.

316
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,680
That's not a real detective.
Yes.

317
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,960
OK.
And I'm not talking just about

318
00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:18,880
being a good scientist.
Being a good detective is not to

319
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,480
assume anything.
What you need to do is collect

320
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,720
the data.
He is not engaged in the search

321
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:30,200
for data and he's dismissing the
attempt to collect data by

322
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,000
others.
That is anti scientific.

323
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,880
The correct scientific approach
is to say okay.

324
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,480
Well, I have some prejudice.
I have some priors about

325
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,120
different items.
You know, I myself might not be

326
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:46,150
engaged in collecting data, but.
That's wonderful that Avi's

327
00:18:46,150 --> 00:18:47,830
willing to allocate time for
that.

328
00:18:48,070 --> 00:18:51,470
Let's see what he finds.
And once we look at the data, I

329
00:18:51,470 --> 00:18:54,430
will express my opinion about
what it means.

330
00:18:54,790 --> 00:18:57,470
Okay.
That's a good approach because

331
00:18:57,470 --> 00:19:00,630
it says priority is given to the
evidence.

332
00:19:00,630 --> 00:19:03,910
That's the way for us to be
modest and learn from nature.

333
00:19:03,990 --> 00:19:06,950
It's a learning experience.
Whereas if someone tells you in

334
00:19:06,950 --> 00:19:10,510
advance that the collection of
data is not worthwhile.

335
00:19:11,100 --> 00:19:13,540
That's anti scientific.
This is no different.

336
00:19:13,540 --> 00:19:17,340
Let me give you another example.
Six months ago I was speaking

337
00:19:17,340 --> 00:19:21,060
with a string theorist at
breakfast that I met at the

338
00:19:21,060 --> 00:19:23,700
place I stayed in at the
university.

339
00:19:24,180 --> 00:19:27,220
And I asked this string
theorist, who is not very

340
00:19:27,220 --> 00:19:30,340
different than Larry Krauss, in
the approach that they take.

341
00:19:30,740 --> 00:19:35,300
And he said to I said to him,
okay, what is the most important

342
00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:38,740
scientific paper that you are
most proud of in your career?

343
00:19:38,900 --> 00:19:41,020
And this is the one of the most
prominent.

344
00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:47,540
And string theories, Okay.
So I would say much, has a much

345
00:19:48,860 --> 00:19:54,580
more visible stature within
academia than Larry Krauss

346
00:19:55,140 --> 00:19:58,660
anyway.
So he said, it's a paper about

347
00:19:58,660 --> 00:20:01,740
super symmetry that I'm most
proud of.

348
00:20:02,340 --> 00:20:04,220
And it was several decades ago,
Okay.

349
00:20:04,820 --> 00:20:08,820
So I said, well, you know, the
Large Hadron Collider.

350
00:20:10,270 --> 00:20:13,590
Searched for super symmetry in
the most natural parameter space

351
00:20:13,590 --> 00:20:18,230
advocated by your contemporaries
and didn't find it.

352
00:20:18,830 --> 00:20:21,790
So super symmetry in the natural
parameter space that was

353
00:20:21,790 --> 00:20:26,630
advocated for was not found.
Why would you be proud of that?

354
00:20:28,150 --> 00:20:29,750
Because apparently it's not
there.

355
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:35,150
And he said, well, it may be
just around the corner.

356
00:20:35,350 --> 00:20:38,710
We need more money for the
experiment to go to higher

357
00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:42,950
energies, and we might find it.
Now what did this remind me of?

358
00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:46,870
That Orthodox Jewish community
in Brooklyn?

359
00:20:48,190 --> 00:20:52,830
The Lubavitchers had a rabbi,
and their theory was that the

360
00:20:52,830 --> 00:20:57,750
rabbi will become a Messiah,
meaning that after he dies, he

361
00:20:57,750 --> 00:21:03,550
will come back and, you know,
lead us to the messianic future

362
00:21:04,630 --> 00:21:09,140
in by coming back to Israel.
So they actually built an

363
00:21:09,140 --> 00:21:13,620
apartment in Israel, which is a
replica of his apartment in

364
00:21:13,620 --> 00:21:17,260
Brooklyn, NY city, so that he
will find the toilets easily

365
00:21:17,260 --> 00:21:19,060
when he comes back as the
Messiah.

366
00:21:19,300 --> 00:21:21,980
They were sure about that.
So that was their theory.

367
00:21:22,020 --> 00:21:26,300
OK, now the rabbi died.
It's a fact.

368
00:21:26,460 --> 00:21:28,420
Just like supersymmetry was not
found.

369
00:21:29,380 --> 00:21:35,060
What was the response of the
people who advocated for this

370
00:21:35,060 --> 00:21:37,700
theory?
When you asked them, they said

371
00:21:38,210 --> 00:21:43,810
you just have to wait.
Now how is that different from

372
00:21:43,810 --> 00:21:46,370
the response of the string
theories?

373
00:21:47,090 --> 00:21:51,250
The only difference is he was
supposed to be more scientific

374
00:21:51,250 --> 00:21:54,370
to say okay, we move on, we
haven't found it.

375
00:21:54,690 --> 00:21:57,090
Now let's look at other ideas.
But he didn't.

376
00:21:57,930 --> 00:22:01,770
He didn't.
So it's a matter of belief for

377
00:22:01,770 --> 00:22:04,130
those people who don't care
about evidence.

378
00:22:04,450 --> 00:22:09,270
And when Larry Cross says I have
an opinion, I don't want Avi to

379
00:22:09,270 --> 00:22:12,830
look for this evidence.
He's also behaving like

380
00:22:12,870 --> 00:22:17,950
religious people, and despite
the fact that he has, you know,

381
00:22:17,950 --> 00:22:21,270
he's very much against God.
He wanted to argue the universe

382
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:23,190
was created by a fluctuation of
the vacuum.

383
00:22:23,470 --> 00:22:28,040
He behaves as a believer in this
idea or that idea and just think

384
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:29,760
about it.
There are so many stars out

385
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,240
there.
We launched 5 probes to

386
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,280
interstellar space over half a
century.

387
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,840
We just had one century of
science and technology.

388
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,650
He knows that.
Yet he says we are unique and

389
00:22:40,650 --> 00:22:43,530
special and anything else is an
extraordinary claim.

390
00:22:43,730 --> 00:22:47,650
And why would Avi be engaged in
this ridiculous notion that we

391
00:22:47,650 --> 00:22:50,850
are not the only smartest and
everything else is like,

392
00:22:50,850 --> 00:22:52,890
extraordinary?
And I say it's the other way

393
00:22:52,890 --> 00:22:55,130
around?
This is an arrogant point of

394
00:22:55,130 --> 00:22:58,850
view to say that we are special
and unique and let's just

395
00:22:58,850 --> 00:23:02,890
collect evidence about objects
near Earth that might have been

396
00:23:02,890 --> 00:23:07,180
sent from other civilizations
that appears space trash because

397
00:23:07,180 --> 00:23:10,260
they collected just like
plastics in the ocean over

398
00:23:10,260 --> 00:23:13,180
billions of years.
So I'm agnostic.

399
00:23:13,380 --> 00:23:16,140
I'm not saying we have the
evidence, I'm just saying we

400
00:23:16,140 --> 00:23:18,820
need to work on it before we say
where is everybody?

401
00:23:18,980 --> 00:23:22,100
That's what I'm saying.
And yet that becomes

402
00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:24,780
controversial.
I'm not rocking the boat.

403
00:23:24,900 --> 00:23:27,820
I'm just saying we exist.
Let's look for something like

404
00:23:27,820 --> 00:23:29,500
us.
That's to me much less

405
00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:34,210
speculative than super symmetry.
Yet that is considered

406
00:23:34,210 --> 00:23:36,210
controversial.
Where supersymmetry, oh, we

407
00:23:36,210 --> 00:23:38,210
didn't find it.
Let's just build the bigger $2

408
00:23:38,210 --> 00:23:42,250
billion we'll find.
We bring a higher energy, smash

409
00:23:42,250 --> 00:23:46,280
particles.
Maybe we'll find it and you know

410
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,800
we can continue to be proud of
our intelligence and not even

411
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:55,400
search for others because we
regard that as extraordinary.

412
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,480
Let's look for microbes, because
microbes, you know, are

413
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,440
obviously inferior to us so far.
We are the only intelligent

414
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,680
species here on Earth at the
level that we have.

415
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,640
And by the way, that will change
soon with a large language

416
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:14,160
models, maybe Chachi 55 or 6,
you know that will be a blow to

417
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,640
our ego.
But until then, you know we are

418
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,520
the smartest on earth and maybe
in the universe.

419
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,080
Let's consider everything else
is extraordinary and not such

420
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,840
for evidence.
And my point is, extraordinary

421
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,000
evidence requires extraordinary
funding.

422
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,640
You really need to work on it.
It it's hard work and you can't

423
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,320
just pretend to know the answer
in advance.

424
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:40,760
Yeah.
No, it's it's it's very

425
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,440
difficult to look.
I mean, knowing what we know

426
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,200
today, to look out into this
cosmos and just and make that

427
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,880
jump into to say that we're the
only ones here, I find it.

428
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,280
But how do you explain?
How do you explain what Larry

429
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,600
was saying about this question
so?

430
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,360
That's a tough one for me.
I'm not sure, but from my

431
00:24:58,360 --> 00:25:00,520
perspective, I mean, this is the
logo for the podcast, the mind

432
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:01,960
body solution.
I mean, just behind my

433
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:03,320
girlfriend made this.
I mean, you can see.

434
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,520
I mean, the curiosity is always
there.

435
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,340
You've got a really.
Even though it's not a depiction

436
00:25:09,340 --> 00:25:12,460
of what I think an alien would
look like, the fact is, I mean

437
00:25:12,660 --> 00:25:15,740
it's almost so much more
exciting to at least consider

438
00:25:15,740 --> 00:25:17,260
the option and search for
evidence.

439
00:25:19,780 --> 00:25:27,100
So two days ago I had at my home
a play called A Piece of Sky

440
00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:31,310
that was written by a
playwright, Josh Ravich from Los

441
00:25:31,310 --> 00:25:33,950
Angeles who contacted me six
months ago.

442
00:25:34,190 --> 00:25:37,550
He was inspired by my work.
He heard me speak at the podcast

443
00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:42,710
and decided to write a play A1
man show that he will he hopes

444
00:25:42,710 --> 00:25:49,230
to bring to Off Broadway theater
in New York City within a year

445
00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:52,710
And the first presentation was
at my home 2 days ago.

446
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:57,640
And the and the in that
presentation I think there are

447
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:02,000
several, a couple of highlights.
One of them is me as you know

448
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,520
the person making the
presentation asking why is

449
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:13,760
childlike bullying more
prevalent than childlike

450
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,520
curiosity.
OK, that's the question you

451
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,360
should have asked Larry.
And the second thing that was

452
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:28,640
interesting is I mentioned my
mother who inspired me to think

453
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,760
philosophically about the
fundamental questions regarding

454
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,360
our existence at a young age.
And I was very connected to her

455
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:44,320
and I mentioned that she said to
me once that when I was born and

456
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,000
the in the nursery I I I was
looking.

457
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,040
I was the only baby that was
looking at the ceiling.

458
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,880
Why all the other babies were
looking at their cribs.

459
00:26:54,920 --> 00:27:00,840
And the I I confess that the I
you know nothing changed that I

460
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:06,840
still do that and this you know
brings me trouble because I'm

461
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,270
willing to look up to look out
and everyone else is looking

462
00:27:11,270 --> 00:27:15,590
down at their environment and
engaging in conflicts.

463
00:27:17,070 --> 00:27:21,030
And it's really unfortunate this
tendency to engage in 0 sum

464
00:27:21,030 --> 00:27:25,070
games here on the surface of
this rock that we were born on

465
00:27:25,310 --> 00:27:28,590
instead of appreciating how much
real estate there is out there

466
00:27:28,590 --> 00:27:32,510
in the third dimension of space
and why should be be so narrow

467
00:27:32,510 --> 00:27:35,230
minded.
I mean the way I think of Earth

468
00:27:35,230 --> 00:27:39,440
is like we are all in the same
boat and we better cooperate

469
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,320
with each other as equal members
of the human species rather than

470
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,360
engage in conflicts.
And you know, I calculated we

471
00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:50,120
spend $2 trillion every year on
military budgets.

472
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,560
And if we were to listen to John
Lennon, who said, imagine all

473
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,920
the people living in peace and
we were to allocate that money

474
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,960
to space exploration instead of
killing each other or fighting

475
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,440
each other or feeling superior
relative to each other, which is

476
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,280
pretty much what a lot of us are
doing all the time.

477
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,240
And then, you know, just think
about the bigger picture.

478
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,680
We could send a cube sat towards
every star in the Milky Way

479
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,920
Galaxy, billions of them, within
this century, just by changing

480
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,800
priorities.
And so I asked you, why is it

481
00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:34,850
necessary to, you know, to
dismiss the idea that that there

482
00:28:34,850 --> 00:28:39,650
might be someone out there and
continue to engage in this mad

483
00:28:39,650 --> 00:28:43,010
wrestling on earth?
Why?

484
00:28:43,010 --> 00:28:48,530
Why is it psychologically needed
also for scientists, rather than

485
00:28:48,530 --> 00:28:52,570
being a little more generous and
saying, you know, we are doing

486
00:28:52,570 --> 00:28:54,690
some things, maybe there is
someone else doing the same

487
00:28:54,690 --> 00:28:57,490
things out there.
That's not speculative because

488
00:28:57,490 --> 00:29:01,340
we exist, you know, extra
dimensions is speculative, yet

489
00:29:01,340 --> 00:29:03,020
you have a community of
thousands of people.

490
00:29:03,020 --> 00:29:05,300
And Larry would not say anything
bad about that.

491
00:29:05,740 --> 00:29:08,900
He would not criticize that as
extraordinary, even though we

492
00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:12,700
have no evidence whatsoever for
a single dimension beyond the

493
00:29:12,700 --> 00:29:17,700
three that we are used to.
So in that kind of a culture

494
00:29:17,980 --> 00:29:24,420
where some speculations that are
far more, you know, speculative

495
00:29:24,820 --> 00:29:28,670
are being advocated for decades,
and there is no chance in the

496
00:29:28,670 --> 00:29:32,670
foreseeable future for us to
test them, including how the

497
00:29:32,670 --> 00:29:35,990
universe started, what was there
before The Big Bang that he is

498
00:29:36,150 --> 00:29:40,190
very fond of, the the nature of
dark matter that he is very fond

499
00:29:40,190 --> 00:29:41,470
of.
And we didn't make progress for

500
00:29:41,470 --> 00:29:43,870
decades.
And here is a question that the

501
00:29:43,870 --> 00:29:47,710
public cares about, that the US
government cares about, and that

502
00:29:47,710 --> 00:29:51,470
we have a chance of making
progress because we found some

503
00:29:51,710 --> 00:29:55,270
objects from interstellar space.
Yet he has an issue with us

504
00:29:55,270 --> 00:29:57,570
investigating it.
Yeah, I know.

505
00:29:57,570 --> 00:30:00,970
And I think, yeah, I think that
the public understands that the

506
00:30:00,970 --> 00:30:06,250
public resonates with that.
So when the problem right now is

507
00:30:06,250 --> 00:30:11,290
that in funding agencies, you
have mainstream scientists who

508
00:30:11,290 --> 00:30:16,010
are saying let's not take risks
because we would waste taxpayers

509
00:30:16,010 --> 00:30:17,810
money.
If they were to speak with the

510
00:30:17,810 --> 00:30:21,690
taxpayers and ask them what do
they care about more the nature

511
00:30:21,690 --> 00:30:24,850
of dark matter, extra dimensions
or whether we are alone.

512
00:30:24,970 --> 00:30:29,130
They would get an answer that
would make them fund the search

513
00:30:29,290 --> 00:30:31,730
for extraterrestrials.
But they don't ask the public

514
00:30:32,450 --> 00:30:34,330
and they feel superior to the
public.

515
00:30:34,330 --> 00:30:36,090
They don't want to engage with
the public.

516
00:30:36,370 --> 00:30:37,770
That's the problem that they
have.

517
00:30:38,590 --> 00:30:41,110
It's it's it's maintaining that
passionate curiosity because

518
00:30:41,110 --> 00:30:43,590
often say I mean you can be
reasonably skeptical but you

519
00:30:43,590 --> 00:30:46,150
could have to still have that
curiosity to maintain that

520
00:30:46,150 --> 00:30:49,630
skepticism as well because
otherwise you just go down too

521
00:30:49,630 --> 00:30:52,830
far into that that scientism.
I mean as in philosophy you let

522
00:30:52,830 --> 00:30:56,150
you learn about you go too far
down that scientism rabbit hole

523
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:58,430
and and that's one of the
functions of this podcast is to

524
00:30:58,430 --> 00:31:00,990
explore these topics and just
allow people to have this

525
00:31:00,990 --> 00:31:03,590
opportunity.
Now we haven't yet mentioned

526
00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:05,390
that brought up the book
Interstellar.

527
00:31:05,390 --> 00:31:07,900
What a wonderful book.
Amazing.

528
00:31:08,340 --> 00:31:11,140
Read you often.
I remember there was a time when

529
00:31:11,140 --> 00:31:13,380
I read.
I think it was one of your.

530
00:31:13,860 --> 00:31:15,260
It was a textbook.
I think it was.

531
00:31:16,540 --> 00:31:18,460
Can't remember it was on
galaxies or stars.

532
00:31:18,970 --> 00:31:22,330
Yes, still, how did the first
stars and galaxies form?

533
00:31:22,610 --> 00:31:25,250
I still remember there was a
time where I've been reading

534
00:31:25,250 --> 00:31:28,170
your work and then it I stopped
because obviously I didn't go

535
00:31:28,170 --> 00:31:29,730
because I wanted to be an
astrophysicist.

536
00:31:29,730 --> 00:31:32,170
It was very much along that
path.

537
00:31:32,170 --> 00:31:34,130
And then I became a doctor.
So I stopped reading for a while

538
00:31:34,130 --> 00:31:36,050
and then I started reading your
books again.

539
00:31:36,250 --> 00:31:38,890
I remember having the same
thought where I thought, OK,

540
00:31:39,090 --> 00:31:42,210
here's a scientist who who's
really ingrained in the science,

541
00:31:42,210 --> 00:31:45,770
who's now entered a new realm.
And I find that very concerning

542
00:31:45,770 --> 00:31:47,890
for not, not from my
perspective, but for you,

543
00:31:47,890 --> 00:31:50,810
because I know that the.
The audience can really come at

544
00:31:50,810 --> 00:31:53,890
this in a very negative way.
But other people who do that as

545
00:31:53,890 --> 00:31:56,490
well are journalists.
And I have a question here.

546
00:31:56,490 --> 00:32:00,850
And it says what's it been like
to watch journalists completely

547
00:32:00,970 --> 00:32:04,090
misuse your work to label their
titles?

548
00:32:04,090 --> 00:32:06,330
Because I've seen some
outlandish titles.

549
00:32:07,010 --> 00:32:10,450
Harvard scientists claims this,
or Harvard scientists proves

550
00:32:10,450 --> 00:32:11,730
that.
How do you feel about that?

551
00:32:12,370 --> 00:32:15,530
Sorry, I feel very bad about
that because what happens is the

552
00:32:15,530 --> 00:32:19,970
following dynamics.
They crafted title that then

553
00:32:20,250 --> 00:32:24,330
attracts a click baits and then
obviously they do it for

554
00:32:24,330 --> 00:32:27,170
commercial purposes.
And it may be the editors, maybe

555
00:32:27,170 --> 00:32:28,650
not the journalists.
It doesn't matter.

556
00:32:28,890 --> 00:32:34,170
The point is, they distort my
message when I say the meteor

557
00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:37,210
had unusual material strength
and speed.

558
00:32:37,370 --> 00:32:41,990
So it could be a natural object
like a rock from some unusual

559
00:32:41,990 --> 00:32:46,150
source astrophysical source, or
it could be a Voyager like

560
00:32:46,150 --> 00:32:47,790
spacecraft.
So I mentioned both

561
00:32:47,790 --> 00:32:49,110
possibilities because I don't
know.

562
00:32:49,110 --> 00:32:53,870
At the moment they say I am
announcing the discovery of

563
00:32:53,870 --> 00:32:57,310
extraterrestrial craft and why
would they do that?

564
00:32:57,310 --> 00:33:00,070
To attract attention.
Now what happens as a result is

565
00:33:00,830 --> 00:33:06,480
the naysayers use that narrative
that was invented by the

566
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,480
reporters to argue that I'm
making exaggerated claims.

567
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,960
Now if you listen to all the
podcasts that I was on and to

568
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,400
what I actually say, you will
never hear me say whatever is

569
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,520
mentioned in the those titles.
And so they fuel each other, the

570
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,640
reporters, and then the
reporters go back to those

571
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,360
people and those people tell
them he's exaggerating, and the

572
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,650
reporters report about that.
So in other words, they report

573
00:33:29,690 --> 00:33:33,570
about the perception of the
exaggerated titles that their

574
00:33:33,570 --> 00:33:37,290
colleagues in the reporting
business generated, as if I was

575
00:33:37,290 --> 00:33:39,850
saying it, and therefore I
should be ridiculed.

576
00:33:40,090 --> 00:33:42,970
And then they use any
opportunity to create

577
00:33:42,970 --> 00:33:46,450
controversy, which some of my
colleagues are tapping into

578
00:33:46,570 --> 00:33:49,450
because they don't do any work,
they don't collect any evidence.

579
00:33:49,450 --> 00:33:52,690
And I'm just calling, you know.
So I feel that that it's very

580
00:33:52,690 --> 00:33:55,290
unfortunate that the narrative
goes in this direction in the

581
00:33:55,290 --> 00:33:58,570
context of science, because
imagine how distorted that the

582
00:33:58,570 --> 00:34:00,530
messages are in the context of
politics.

583
00:34:00,690 --> 00:34:04,210
If for science they can do it,
then for politics forget about

584
00:34:04,210 --> 00:34:07,490
any sense of truth in the
report, you know?

585
00:34:08,090 --> 00:34:11,650
And so I mean, if you just
listen to my pod, the podcast

586
00:34:11,650 --> 00:34:15,810
that I had and I had, you know
by now maybe 3000 of them over

587
00:34:15,810 --> 00:34:20,170
the past two years, you will
never hear me say what is

588
00:34:20,170 --> 00:34:23,389
mentioning those titles.
Yet some of my colleagues are

589
00:34:23,389 --> 00:34:26,429
using the titles to attack me
when they were invented by the

590
00:34:26,429 --> 00:34:28,710
reporters.
And those reporters are

591
00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:32,949
reporting about what the
colleagues are saying about me

592
00:34:32,949 --> 00:34:35,070
based on their exaggerated
titles.

593
00:34:35,070 --> 00:34:37,270
So it's a completely twisted
reality.

594
00:34:37,389 --> 00:34:41,909
So, So as a result of that, you
know, people are not getting the

595
00:34:41,989 --> 00:34:44,949
the correct message up.
But when they read my, for

596
00:34:44,949 --> 00:34:48,429
example, I wrote 43 diary
reports during the expedition

597
00:34:48,429 --> 00:34:51,550
that I went to the Pacific Ocean
and there were millions of

598
00:34:51,550 --> 00:34:53,070
people around the world that
read it.

599
00:34:53,590 --> 00:34:57,110
They were translated to Spanish
and I got a lot of emails from

600
00:34:57,110 --> 00:34:58,550
people who said they were
inspired.

601
00:34:58,550 --> 00:35:01,430
So I know that there is a large
community of people who know

602
00:35:01,430 --> 00:35:04,310
what is happening because they
read what I write, not what

603
00:35:04,310 --> 00:35:07,150
reporters are saying.
The reason I speak to reporters,

604
00:35:07,150 --> 00:35:10,190
I mean I could have cut this off
based on this experience.

605
00:35:10,190 --> 00:35:12,870
But the reason I speak with them
is because, you know, they have

606
00:35:12,870 --> 00:35:17,150
large audience and I want at
least some version of my story

607
00:35:17,150 --> 00:35:19,950
to go out.
But I must say, you know, for

608
00:35:19,950 --> 00:35:23,460
example, the New York, I mean, I
well, several of these reporters

609
00:35:23,460 --> 00:35:27,020
were telling me recently that
I'm the most well known

610
00:35:27,340 --> 00:35:29,220
practicing scientists in the
world.

611
00:35:29,460 --> 00:35:32,220
Okay.
But at the same time, for

612
00:35:32,220 --> 00:35:36,220
example, they would mention
criticism on my latest paper

613
00:35:36,220 --> 00:35:43,140
related to the well related to
Oumuamua or related to the

614
00:35:43,140 --> 00:35:46,840
meteor.
And then I would respond to the

615
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,800
criticism very specifically with
details.

616
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,480
They would not include that.
They would just include the

617
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,880
negativity expressed by some
colleagues to create a sense of

618
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,560
equal attention to both sides
when the other side is not doing

619
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,880
any work.
Okay, the other side is just

620
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,800
criticizing.
And so unfortunately, that has

621
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,320
been happening.
But I move on.

622
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,530
You see, by now you know, I do
think that the best approach is

623
00:36:12,690 --> 00:36:16,850
that of the eagle, you know,
that has sometimes the crow

624
00:36:16,850 --> 00:36:20,490
sitting on its back and pecking
at its neck, and the eagle

625
00:36:20,490 --> 00:36:25,090
doesn't fight off the crow.
The eagle rises to greater

626
00:36:25,090 --> 00:36:28,410
heights where the oxygen level
is low and the crow drops off.

627
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,280
So I'm trying for me that
greatest heights is doing the

628
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,840
science as it should be done,
collecting materials, analyzing

629
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,600
the data and then reporting the
results.

630
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,880
And in the in the process of
doing that I I converse with the

631
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,120
public because I don't feel
superior to the public.

632
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,360
I just describe what I'm doing
and my hope is that by doing the

633
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,320
science the the all the crows
that are pecking on my neck will

634
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,040
drop off.
But then I must say that they

635
00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,000
don't read my scientific papers.
They continue to be negative and

636
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,680
frankly, I just don't know what
else I can do other than do my

637
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:04,520
science.
I'm I'm.

638
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,720
I'm just ignoring because I
realize if I'm mad wrestle I'll

639
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:10,600
get there dirty.
I I don't want to I don't want

640
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,520
to give them the respect they
don't deserve by expressing

641
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,640
negativity.
Just to give you an example,

642
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:22,750
there was a Blogger who just a
month ago decided to summarize

643
00:37:22,750 --> 00:37:26,950
what's known about Tomua Mua 6
years after when the literature,

644
00:37:26,950 --> 00:37:30,350
the astronomical literature, is
full of papers saying, oh, this

645
00:37:30,350 --> 00:37:32,750
object is anomalous, we could
explain it.

646
00:37:32,950 --> 00:37:36,550
Maybe it's a hydrogen iceberg,
maybe it's a nitrogen iceberg,

647
00:37:36,750 --> 00:37:40,830
maybe it's a dust Bunny.
And all of these suggestions are

648
00:37:40,950 --> 00:37:42,870
objects that we've never seen
before.

649
00:37:43,030 --> 00:37:47,230
So they wanted to explain
anomalies based on objects that

650
00:37:47,230 --> 00:37:52,070
we've never seen before.
And the latest blog report about

651
00:37:52,070 --> 00:37:56,750
it was saying, oh, these
anomalies are exaggerated.

652
00:37:56,830 --> 00:37:59,830
There is nothing really unusual
about this object.

653
00:37:59,830 --> 00:38:03,430
It's natural hoping that six
years later people forgot about

654
00:38:03,430 --> 00:38:06,100
the details.
But just look at the scientific

655
00:38:06,100 --> 00:38:07,900
literature.
It's full of people trying to

656
00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:10,220
explain the anomalies.
So at the beginning, people

657
00:38:10,220 --> 00:38:13,180
said, oh, it's a natural object.
And then all these different

658
00:38:13,180 --> 00:38:16,700
groups of people try to said, oh
wait a minute, but there is this

659
00:38:16,700 --> 00:38:19,580
anomaly indeed.
Let's try and explain it by

660
00:38:19,780 --> 00:38:22,820
imagining an object that we've
never seen before, like a dust

661
00:38:22,820 --> 00:38:24,940
Bunny.
You know, just think of Elon

662
00:38:24,940 --> 00:38:29,940
Musk's Tesla that was launched
in one of his early, you know,

663
00:38:29,940 --> 00:38:35,380
launches where and and it was
the red in color.

664
00:38:35,380 --> 00:38:38,740
And imagine it going out of the
solar system and passing near a

665
00:38:38,740 --> 00:38:41,700
planet like the Earth.
And the scientists say, oh, this

666
00:38:41,700 --> 00:38:46,700
looks like a red dust Bunny to
us because it doesn't look like

667
00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:51,780
a rock.
And you know, so we need better

668
00:38:51,780 --> 00:38:54,740
data, that's for sure.
But we should not dismiss the

669
00:38:54,740 --> 00:38:59,700
possibility that Elon Musk's
Tesla is a Tesla because we

670
00:38:59,700 --> 00:39:01,890
launched.
He launched into space.

671
00:39:01,890 --> 00:39:04,170
Okay.
There are objects in space that

672
00:39:04,170 --> 00:39:09,010
we launched that are not rocks.
So what is the problem of

673
00:39:09,010 --> 00:39:12,730
allowing an outlier to belong to
that category?

674
00:39:12,730 --> 00:39:15,850
If we see something that doesn't
look like a rock, doesn't, you

675
00:39:15,850 --> 00:39:17,130
know, it doesn't look like a
comet.

676
00:39:17,130 --> 00:39:19,170
So what do I hear back people
saying?

677
00:39:19,610 --> 00:39:23,900
Oh, it has an invisible
commentary tale.

678
00:39:23,900 --> 00:39:26,540
The commentary tale is
invisible, just like in Hans

679
00:39:26,540 --> 00:39:29,980
Christian Andersen's tale.
The emperor had, I feel like the

680
00:39:29,980 --> 00:39:32,820
kids saying the emperor has no
clothes or mua.

681
00:39:32,820 --> 00:39:36,520
Mua has no tale.
And they tell me, Oh no, the

682
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,120
emperor has closed.
They're just invisible.

683
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,480
And you should admit it.
How dare you say anything other

684
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,240
than that?
And it the tail is invisible

685
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:47,600
because it's made of hydrogen,
made of nitrogen.

686
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,880
You know, just believe it and
stop talking about it.

687
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:55,160
And you know, if I wanted to
conform with that notion, I

688
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,840
would feel that I betray my
scientific integrity.

689
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,080
Just saying, OK, it's a rock,
forget about it and then we will

690
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,400
move on.
Why should I say that if the

691
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,900
evidence is not clear?
They just for those who are not

692
00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:11,260
familiar amu amua, do you want
to maybe define it for those

693
00:40:11,260 --> 00:40:12,820
people who don't know because
I'm big.

694
00:40:12,820 --> 00:40:15,020
Part of the Galileo project.
I think it's one of the second

695
00:40:15,020 --> 00:40:16,980
aspects of the Galileo project
as well.

696
00:40:17,340 --> 00:40:19,060
Right.
I mean, the first object is the

697
00:40:19,060 --> 00:40:20,700
meteor.
We can talk about it more later.

698
00:40:20,700 --> 00:40:24,340
But the second object from
interstellar space that was

699
00:40:24,340 --> 00:40:28,820
found was in October 2017 by a
telescope in Hawaii.

700
00:40:29,340 --> 00:40:33,500
This telescope surveyed the sky
for near Earth objects and it

701
00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:36,260
was constructed.
For the first time in history,

702
00:40:36,460 --> 00:40:41,780
because the Congress tasked NASA
to find objects near Earth that

703
00:40:41,780 --> 00:40:44,860
are bigger than the size of a
football field and could cause a

704
00:40:44,860 --> 00:40:48,020
lot of damage if they collide
with Earth, we know that the

705
00:40:48,020 --> 00:40:50,940
dinosaurs were killed by an
object as big as Manhattan

706
00:40:50,940 --> 00:40:54,500
Island, and so we want to
prevent that because we can

707
00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:56,660
build telescopes.
The dinosaurs were not smart

708
00:40:56,660 --> 00:41:02,060
enough to look up Okay, so this
telescope in Hawaii, Panstars,

709
00:41:02,060 --> 00:41:08,180
was built to survey the sky and.
Find most of the objects bigger

710
00:41:08,180 --> 00:41:11,660
than a football field that we
can see from the reflection of

711
00:41:11,660 --> 00:41:15,460
sunlight off the surface.
And then there it found

712
00:41:15,580 --> 00:41:21,260
Oumuamua, an object on October
19th 2017 that was coming close

713
00:41:21,260 --> 00:41:26,500
to Earth within 1/6 of the
Earth's sun separation and okay.

714
00:41:26,500 --> 00:41:29,060
It's a it flagged it as a Near
Earth object.

715
00:41:29,580 --> 00:41:32,220
If it were not passing near
Earth, it would ignore it, but

716
00:41:33,140 --> 00:41:37,110
gladly it passed near Earth.
So then they noticed that it's

717
00:41:37,110 --> 00:41:40,910
moving very fast, faster than
then speed needed to escape from

718
00:41:40,910 --> 00:41:43,910
the solar system.
So that was declared as an

719
00:41:43,950 --> 00:41:46,470
interstellar object, no doubt
about it.

720
00:41:47,310 --> 00:41:51,190
And to me that was intriguing
because a decade earlier I

721
00:41:51,190 --> 00:41:54,710
forecasted there that there
shouldn't be interstellar rocks.

722
00:41:55,150 --> 00:41:57,750
With a large enough abundance
for this telescope to see

723
00:41:57,750 --> 00:42:01,150
anything of that size based on
what we know about the solar

724
00:42:01,150 --> 00:42:04,190
system.
So being wrong for me was an

725
00:42:04,190 --> 00:42:05,790
opportunity to learn something
new.

726
00:42:06,110 --> 00:42:10,110
OK, it's not a blow to my ego.
That's not the way to think of

727
00:42:10,110 --> 00:42:12,110
it.
If you are wrong, it's actually

728
00:42:12,110 --> 00:42:14,070
meaning that you learn something
new.

729
00:42:14,230 --> 00:42:17,670
OK, so I said OK, well, there
must be a much bigger population

730
00:42:17,670 --> 00:42:19,630
of such objects.
What is it?

731
00:42:20,340 --> 00:42:24,020
And then, as time went on, it
looked weirder and weirder.

732
00:42:24,180 --> 00:42:27,260
For example, the amount of
sunlight reflected from it

733
00:42:27,460 --> 00:42:30,700
changed by a factor of 10 as it
was tumbling every eight hours.

734
00:42:31,070 --> 00:42:34,150
So that meant that it has an
extreme shape and another

735
00:42:34,150 --> 00:42:37,510
astronomer wrote a very detailed
paper fitting the variation of

736
00:42:37,510 --> 00:42:42,190
light as it was tumbling But and
and concluded that at the 90%

737
00:42:42,190 --> 00:42:48,710
confidence this object must have
been flat the pancake like which

738
00:42:48,710 --> 00:42:52,230
is unusual for a rock.
And then another group of

739
00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:55,550
astronomers discovered that it
was pushed away from the sun by

740
00:42:55,550 --> 00:42:58,430
some mysterious force without
showing any commentary of

741
00:42:58,430 --> 00:43:02,260
operation.
And no, no gas or dust were

742
00:43:02,260 --> 00:43:04,980
visible around it.
Even with the speeds of Space

743
00:43:04,980 --> 00:43:06,660
Telescope that looked very
deeply.

744
00:43:07,220 --> 00:43:10,300
And so I said, well, the only
thing I can think of is that the

745
00:43:10,300 --> 00:43:12,660
reflection of sunlight from it
is pushing it.

746
00:43:12,980 --> 00:43:17,220
So for that it has to be very
thin and the nature doesn't make

747
00:43:17,220 --> 00:43:21,900
thin objects like sales.
So it may be technological.

748
00:43:21,900 --> 00:43:24,700
That's all I said.
And the initially, you know, the

749
00:43:24,700 --> 00:43:27,500
paper was accepted for
publication within three days.

750
00:43:28,470 --> 00:43:33,590
That's unusual scientifically
and there was a lot of the

751
00:43:33,590 --> 00:43:35,870
reviewer said that that's a
great idea.

752
00:43:36,390 --> 00:43:39,350
In fact this object looks flat.
So it's consistent with your

753
00:43:39,350 --> 00:43:46,110
idea of a thin flat object.
So and then once the idea got a

754
00:43:46,110 --> 00:43:49,230
lot of attention from the
public, the push back started.

755
00:43:49,350 --> 00:43:52,670
So it's really about jealousy
associated with the attention

756
00:43:52,670 --> 00:43:54,470
from the public.
It has nothing to do with the

757
00:43:54,470 --> 00:43:56,430
possibility that this may be the
case.

758
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:03,000
It's mostly about jealousy.
And then, you know, so three

759
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,840
years later, the same telescope
in Hawaii discovered another

760
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,360
object.
It was given the name 2020.

761
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:15,640
SO, and then three weeks after
discovery, the astronomers

762
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,360
realized, you know, with the
same telescope in Hawaii, they

763
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,360
realized that it actually came
from Florida.

764
00:44:22,950 --> 00:44:28,190
In 1966 it was launched by NASA
and it's a rocket booster and it

765
00:44:28,190 --> 00:44:30,670
has thin walls made of stainless
steel.

766
00:44:30,870 --> 00:44:34,550
That's why it didn't evaporate
and that's why it was pushed by

767
00:44:34,550 --> 00:44:36,870
reflecting sunlight.
So these subjects actually had

768
00:44:36,870 --> 00:44:40,710
the same qualities as Soumoamua,
and we know it's artificial

769
00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:43,430
because we made it.
The question is who made

770
00:44:43,430 --> 00:44:44,970
Umoamua?
Yes.

771
00:44:45,930 --> 00:44:48,850
When you think about this search
for extraterrestrial

772
00:44:48,930 --> 00:44:52,890
intelligence or technology,
what's been the most convincing

773
00:44:52,890 --> 00:44:56,210
evidence for you so far that you
feel like would be in your top,

774
00:44:56,290 --> 00:45:00,250
let's say, top three in terms of
most convincing from your side?

775
00:45:01,690 --> 00:45:07,650
Well, I I don't think we have
conclusive evidence, but I would

776
00:45:07,650 --> 00:45:10,610
say the nature of interstellar
objects like.

777
00:45:11,270 --> 00:45:14,190
Or more more like the first
interstellar meteor which was

778
00:45:14,190 --> 00:45:20,270
anomalous as well.
To me is a hint that maybe that

779
00:45:20,270 --> 00:45:23,270
definitely we can learn
something new by examining such

780
00:45:23,270 --> 00:45:24,830
objects that enter the solar
system.

781
00:45:24,830 --> 00:45:28,470
Because, you know, they make
made the journey and even if

782
00:45:28,470 --> 00:45:32,550
they came from unusual
environments, very different

783
00:45:32,550 --> 00:45:35,030
than the solar system, we will
learn what happens.

784
00:45:35,500 --> 00:45:38,740
In those environments, it will
take us millions to billions of

785
00:45:38,740 --> 00:45:43,060
years to travel the distance
there, and it's very different

786
00:45:43,060 --> 00:45:47,340
to examine materials that arrive
at your doorstep compared to

787
00:45:47,340 --> 00:45:49,900
looking through telescopes
remotely.

788
00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:54,220
So in the expedition in
particular, we were able to use

789
00:45:54,220 --> 00:45:57,980
microscopes to study what lies
outside the solar system by

790
00:45:57,980 --> 00:46:01,340
collecting the molten droplets
from the first interstellar

791
00:46:01,340 --> 00:46:05,060
meteor from 2014.
And that's a different method

792
00:46:05,260 --> 00:46:10,180
than using telescopes.
So I think there is a chance,

793
00:46:10,180 --> 00:46:13,900
given that the unusual
properties of those interstellar

794
00:46:13,940 --> 00:46:18,580
first interstellar objects, that
we are seeing space trash from

795
00:46:18,580 --> 00:46:21,500
technological civilizations.
But it's also possible that

796
00:46:21,940 --> 00:46:24,180
these objects came from
environments that are very

797
00:46:24,180 --> 00:46:25,820
unusual, different than the
solar system.

798
00:46:26,260 --> 00:46:28,780
In either case, we will learn
something new.

799
00:46:29,180 --> 00:46:33,740
And this should be encouraged.
This should be a frontier within

800
00:46:33,740 --> 00:46:36,740
the mainstream of astronomy,
rather than being pushed aside.

801
00:46:37,780 --> 00:46:41,580
And then, of course, there is
also the US government coming

802
00:46:41,580 --> 00:46:46,180
forward with the statements
about Unidentified Objects,

803
00:46:46,180 --> 00:46:49,820
Unidentified Anomalous
Phenomenon, the Director of the

804
00:46:49,820 --> 00:46:53,500
new office in the Pentagon, All
Domain Anomaly Resolution

805
00:46:53,500 --> 00:46:58,060
Office, Sean Kirkpatrick.
Who visited my home last year

806
00:46:58,060 --> 00:47:02,500
and we wrote the paper together.
He suggested that a few percent

807
00:47:02,500 --> 00:47:06,500
of all the reports that he's
analyzing could be associated

808
00:47:06,500 --> 00:47:10,660
with unidentified with objects
that are not cannot be simply

809
00:47:10,660 --> 00:47:13,940
identified as drones, balloons,
human made.

810
00:47:14,340 --> 00:47:16,780
So we need to get to the bottom
of that as well.

811
00:47:16,780 --> 00:47:20,740
This could be functioning
devices, not space trash, and

812
00:47:20,740 --> 00:47:23,660
altogether I think we should
apply the scientific method.

813
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,760
This is the only way by which
we'll bring clarity to the

814
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,600
subject.
If we keep listening to

815
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:35,480
scientists that say we know the
answer in advance or without

816
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,280
seeking the evidence, or
listening to believers who know

817
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,200
the answer without seeking the
evidence, we will never get

818
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,680
anywhere.
And, you know, when I was on the

819
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,640
ship on jogging every morning at
sunrise.

820
00:47:49,100 --> 00:47:52,500
You know I maintain my routine
the the one that I keep on land

821
00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:57,340
that I jog at sunrise.
I was asked by someone who said

822
00:47:57,340 --> 00:47:59,500
the Avi it looks like you're
running.

823
00:47:59,660 --> 00:48:02,580
Are you running away from
something or towards something?

824
00:48:03,060 --> 00:48:05,980
And I said both.
I'm running away from some of my

825
00:48:05,980 --> 00:48:09,580
colleagues who have strong
opinions without seeking

826
00:48:09,580 --> 00:48:13,540
evidence and I'm running towards
a higher intelligence in

827
00:48:13,540 --> 00:48:17,500
interstellar space.
And the second is basically the.

828
00:48:19,940 --> 00:48:23,620
The content of my book
Interstellar, where I talk about

829
00:48:23,620 --> 00:48:27,500
the implications for humanity of
finding a partner out there.

830
00:48:28,420 --> 00:48:31,860
Yeah, I mean, before we touch on
that because there's so much to

831
00:48:31,860 --> 00:48:35,200
discuss with regards to that, I
wanna ask you about those people

832
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,760
like let's say Ross Coltard,
David Grush, the people, let's

833
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,600
when you hear people coming out
talking about these phenomenon,

834
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,840
do you think whistleblowers or
UFO whistleblowers in general

835
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,600
will hinder the scientific
search or allow the conversation

836
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:54,320
to flow and grow?
Well, the answer depends on

837
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,480
whether the government has
materials or data some of them

838
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:00,880
are claiming.
I mean, David Grush said that

839
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,200
explicitly that the government
has.

840
00:49:03,620 --> 00:49:08,140
Programs for retrieval and
reverse engineering of alien

841
00:49:08,140 --> 00:49:11,820
spacecraft and you know he
didn't witness that the

842
00:49:11,860 --> 00:49:15,100
evidence.
He just heard stories from 40

843
00:49:15,100 --> 00:49:18,820
people that he spoke with.
And to me, I mean he may be

844
00:49:18,940 --> 00:49:25,060
honest but then without seeing
the evidence first hand we we

845
00:49:25,060 --> 00:49:28,820
can't be sure that it's not
fabricated and so.

846
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,640
It's not convincing.
As far as I'm concerned.

847
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,160
The only good purpose that it
may serve is if indeed there is

848
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:42,600
truth to it, and it will
encourage Congress people to,

849
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,640
you know, go down the rabbit
hole and find out what what

850
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:51,200
really happens in those
classified programs.

851
00:49:52,240 --> 00:49:55,200
On the other hand, it may well
be the case that there is

852
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,240
nothing out there that the
government has.

853
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:02,560
And that it's all, you know,
stories that were invented to

854
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,240
cover up for the development of
technologies that the government

855
00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:08,400
doesn't want others there is to
be aware of.

856
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:13,360
So they label them as alien
technologies, you know, some

857
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:21,320
kind of a story like that or to,
you know, transmit a message

858
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,880
that we have something in our
position that your government

859
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,920
doesn't and therefore beware of
us or something, I mean.

860
00:50:28,580 --> 00:50:33,740
You never know what could be the
motives behind fabrications of

861
00:50:33,740 --> 00:50:36,420
that type.
But until we see the evidence,

862
00:50:36,420 --> 00:50:39,700
we will not know.
And what I say is, you know, we,

863
00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:42,020
if we wait for government to
tell us what lies in

864
00:50:42,020 --> 00:50:45,220
interstellar space, we might
need to wait forever.

865
00:50:45,780 --> 00:50:48,980
It's just like waiting for Godot
and some will back its play.

866
00:50:49,340 --> 00:50:52,780
And instead, you know, we need
to recognize the sky is not

867
00:50:52,780 --> 00:50:55,420
classified.
The oceans are not classified.

868
00:50:55,620 --> 00:50:58,300
We can figure it out ourselves.
You know, it's really.

869
00:50:58,500 --> 00:51:02,540
But we are trapped in this
dialogue between believers and

870
00:51:02,540 --> 00:51:07,300
skeptics that are not engaged in
searching for evidence and they

871
00:51:07,300 --> 00:51:11,940
each hold the opposite opinion
to the outside and they fuel

872
00:51:11,940 --> 00:51:17,660
each other and you know brush
subscribes to the believers camp

873
00:51:17,700 --> 00:51:21,340
And but he didn't see the
evidence and call hard.

874
00:51:21,580 --> 00:51:23,420
I don't think he saw the
evidence.

875
00:51:23,420 --> 00:51:26,100
He never showed it.
I've never seen the evidence

876
00:51:26,100 --> 00:51:28,340
myself.
I mean, it's possible that it's

877
00:51:28,340 --> 00:51:31,460
hidden, of course.
So the only purpose that these

878
00:51:31,460 --> 00:51:34,620
discussions could serve is to
convince those who are in

879
00:51:34,620 --> 00:51:38,020
possession of the evidence to
come out and show us the

880
00:51:38,020 --> 00:51:39,980
evidence.
Because it's not a matter of

881
00:51:39,980 --> 00:51:42,740
national security you know
anything about.

882
00:51:42,940 --> 00:51:45,420
Any information about the
universe at large beyond the

883
00:51:45,420 --> 00:51:50,820
solar system should be shared by
all humans, because any such

884
00:51:51,220 --> 00:51:56,260
visitation by a probe was
initiated.

885
00:51:56,710 --> 00:51:59,590
You know, millions of years ago,
billions of years ago, before

886
00:51:59,590 --> 00:52:04,030
humans existed on Earth, before
we split the land to nations

887
00:52:04,070 --> 00:52:07,550
here on Earth.
And it's just very narrow minded

888
00:52:07,550 --> 00:52:11,230
of someone to withhold such
information from the public.

889
00:52:11,830 --> 00:52:14,470
So either there is something or
not.

890
00:52:14,990 --> 00:52:17,670
And you know, if there is
something, then these

891
00:52:17,670 --> 00:52:20,590
discussions do serve a useful
purpose.

892
00:52:20,990 --> 00:52:25,030
I don't know if there is.
And it may be well be that the

893
00:52:25,070 --> 00:52:29,790
unidentified objects that are
still unidentified have mundane

894
00:52:29,790 --> 00:52:32,030
explanations.
You know, it's the Chinese, the

895
00:52:32,030 --> 00:52:36,230
Russians, someone having
equipment that we don't

896
00:52:36,230 --> 00:52:41,470
recognize until I see evidence
that beyond any reasonable doubt

897
00:52:41,470 --> 00:52:44,050
is non human.
You know, I would not believe

898
00:52:44,050 --> 00:52:48,730
it, but at the same time, I say
why should we keep discussing

899
00:52:48,730 --> 00:52:52,610
what the government may have?
You know, that's not what we do

900
00:52:52,610 --> 00:52:56,210
in the context of science.
You know, when we wanted to know

901
00:52:56,210 --> 00:53:00,250
if the Higgs boson exists, we
didn't wait for Washington DC to

902
00:53:00,250 --> 00:53:02,330
disclose whether the Higgs boson
exists.

903
00:53:02,610 --> 00:53:05,410
Okay, we built the Large Hadron
Collider.

904
00:53:05,410 --> 00:53:07,490
Smash particles and find out.
Found out.

905
00:53:08,090 --> 00:53:11,090
And in the same way, if we are
curious about whether there are

906
00:53:11,090 --> 00:53:14,810
any objects near Earth that
might be of extraterrestrial

907
00:53:14,810 --> 00:53:17,610
technological origin, now we
just need to put together

908
00:53:17,770 --> 00:53:20,490
cameras, telescopes, and look
out.

909
00:53:20,530 --> 00:53:24,490
Now, who is doing that?
Only one group, the Galileo

910
00:53:24,490 --> 00:53:26,690
project.
Who is talking about that?

911
00:53:26,850 --> 00:53:30,610
Everyone, including Larry
Krauss, everyone is talking

912
00:53:30,610 --> 00:53:32,770
about it.
Now I asked you, why is this

913
00:53:32,770 --> 00:53:35,650
useful?
What is it good for to just talk

914
00:53:35,650 --> 00:53:37,250
about it and express your
opinion?

915
00:53:38,030 --> 00:53:40,150
I mean, it's just like
expressing your opinion about

916
00:53:40,150 --> 00:53:44,190
the weather.
And the point is that we should

917
00:53:44,190 --> 00:53:46,710
seek the evidence.
That's the only way to make

918
00:53:46,710 --> 00:53:49,550
progress.
We learned it from Galileo and

919
00:53:49,550 --> 00:53:53,830
we haven't learned the lesson as
of yet, 4 centuries later.

920
00:53:53,990 --> 00:53:58,630
Instead, we have, you know,
skeptics and believers just as

921
00:53:58,630 --> 00:54:02,710
they were centuries ago.
I think the the Galileo project

922
00:54:02,710 --> 00:54:05,440
is it's such a beautiful roject
in general.

923
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,440
I mean it's it's overarching
goals and and theme.

924
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:10,960
It's very awe inspiring as a
whole.

925
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,520
Do you want to briefly outline
the the project for people for

926
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:15,480
that familiar?
So it has.

927
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:20,040
It was established that.
Two years ago and I am leading

928
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:23,600
it at Harvard University and it
has three branches.

929
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:28,640
One of them is is engaging the
expedition expedition similar to

930
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:33,520
the one I led the few months ago
to the Pacific Ocean between

931
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:39,000
June 14th to 28.
That was a mission that cost the

932
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:43,040
one and a half million dollars.
It involved 28 people.

933
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:46,640
We went there.
To the Pacific Ocean, the depth

934
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:51,800
of the ocean was a mile, and the
region that we surveyed was 7

935
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,200
miles.
We were looking for molten

936
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:58,240
droplets from the first
interstellar meteor, and they

937
00:54:58,240 --> 00:55:00,520
were the size of a grain of
sand.

938
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:04,280
And we used the sled with
magnets on both sides, carried

939
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:08,840
it on the ocean floor, collected
magnetic particles, then

940
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,280
analyzed them in the laboratory
of Stein Jacobson at Harvard

941
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,460
University and found.
A special population of

942
00:55:15,940 --> 00:55:19,300
spherals.
These are marbles, metallic

943
00:55:19,300 --> 00:55:23,500
marbles along the meteor path
that were not found anywhere

944
00:55:23,500 --> 00:55:25,580
else.
We had some control regions far

945
00:55:25,580 --> 00:55:29,180
away.
We found an excess of spherals

946
00:55:29,180 --> 00:55:33,220
that have a composition never
seen before in solar systems

947
00:55:34,100 --> 00:55:37,620
materials.
OK, so that that is 1 branch of

948
00:55:37,620 --> 00:55:40,180
the Galileo project.
We plan to go back back to that

949
00:55:40,180 --> 00:55:43,580
side to look for bigger pieces
because that could tell us.

950
00:55:43,890 --> 00:55:48,090
Whether it was a rock or a
technological gadget, a gadget

951
00:55:48,250 --> 00:55:51,770
would have screws and balls.
If we find a big piece, it could

952
00:55:51,770 --> 00:55:54,850
have buttons on it.
And in the last class of the

953
00:55:54,850 --> 00:55:58,570
spring semester, I asked my
students if we find a gadget and

954
00:55:58,570 --> 00:56:02,490
it has buttons on it, should we
press a button and half of them

955
00:56:02,490 --> 00:56:05,770
said no way, don't do that
because it will affect all of

956
00:56:06,010 --> 00:56:08,930
all of us.
Half said that, sure, we want

957
00:56:08,930 --> 00:56:12,130
you to press a button because we
are curious to know what will

958
00:56:12,130 --> 00:56:14,540
happen.
And then a student asked me what

959
00:56:14,540 --> 00:56:18,900
would you actually do?
And I said then I will bring it

960
00:56:18,900 --> 00:56:22,220
to a laboratory and examine it
before engaging with it.

961
00:56:22,780 --> 00:56:26,100
So don't worry, even though the
vote is split, I will take the

962
00:56:26,100 --> 00:56:30,860
more cautious approach.
And so that's one branch of the

963
00:56:30,860 --> 00:56:33,420
Galileo project.
And we are planning also to go

964
00:56:33,420 --> 00:56:38,100
to another side of the second
interstellar meteor not far from

965
00:56:38,100 --> 00:56:42,380
Europe, the second branch of the
Galileo project.

966
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,840
Is the unidentified anomalous
phenomenon that the US

967
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:48,560
government talks about.
The Director of National

968
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,320
Intelligence reported about the
old domain.

969
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:56,560
Anomaly Resolution Office in the
Pentagon is investigating, so we

970
00:56:56,560 --> 00:57:00,360
built an observatory at Harvard
University monitoring the sky

971
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:06,920
24/7 in the infrared.
Optical, radio and audio bands

972
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:11,040
and the data is fed.
It's about half a TB every day.

973
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:19,120
Fed into a computer with machine
learning software that would try

974
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:24,740
to identify birds.
Drones, balloons, airplanes and

975
00:57:24,740 --> 00:57:28,020
see if there is anything from
outside of this Earth and this

976
00:57:28,020 --> 00:57:30,420
will be ongoing once everything
works.

977
00:57:30,420 --> 00:57:36,180
At the moment we are finishing
the test analysis and then we

978
00:57:36,180 --> 00:57:42,420
also started to build a copy of
this observatory in Colorado and

979
00:57:42,420 --> 00:57:46,060
then we hope to make more copies
depending on the funding that we

980
00:57:46,060 --> 00:57:49,140
get each of these observatories
costs.

981
00:57:50,030 --> 00:57:55,590
A fraction of $1,000,000 and it
could be named after donors who

982
00:57:55,590 --> 00:57:58,990
want to have an observatory in
their state, for example.

983
00:57:58,990 --> 00:58:01,790
So we have.
We are hoping there will be more

984
00:58:01,790 --> 00:58:04,430
people interested in those
observatories to support them

985
00:58:04,950 --> 00:58:10,310
and then so this is just to shed
light on what objects are.

986
00:58:11,050 --> 00:58:13,170
Near Earth that might look
anomalous.

987
00:58:13,890 --> 00:58:16,650
Obviously the government is
mostly interested in national

988
00:58:16,650 --> 00:58:19,730
security, so they want to know
if there's a label made in

989
00:58:19,730 --> 00:58:22,490
China.
For me, any object that was made

990
00:58:22,490 --> 00:58:28,290
in China or any human made
object is boring because I just

991
00:58:28,290 --> 00:58:31,250
want to know if there's anything
from outside of this earth.

992
00:58:31,930 --> 00:58:35,130
And then the third branch of the
Galileo project is to find more

993
00:58:35,130 --> 00:58:37,890
objects like Oumuamua that we
mentioned before.

994
00:58:38,490 --> 00:58:43,570
There is a new observatory in
Chile called the Rubin

995
00:58:43,570 --> 00:58:48,210
Observatory that is funded by
the National Science Foundation.

996
00:58:48,570 --> 00:58:53,810
And then we'll start collecting
data next year using a camera

997
00:58:53,810 --> 00:58:59,610
with 3.2 billion pixels.
That's 1000 times more than the

998
00:58:59,610 --> 00:59:03,250
number of pixels you have in
your cell phone images.

999
00:59:04,170 --> 00:59:08,570
And then it will survey the
southern sky every four days and

1000
00:59:08,770 --> 00:59:15,170
could potentially discover more
objects like Homomua every few

1001
00:59:15,170 --> 00:59:17,770
months.
And then the hope is that now

1002
00:59:17,770 --> 00:59:21,290
that we are alerted to their
interest.

1003
00:59:22,670 --> 00:59:27,110
To the there and potentially
being different than the rocks

1004
00:59:27,110 --> 00:59:30,630
we are familiar with, you know
there will be much more

1005
00:59:30,630 --> 00:59:33,070
attention given to any such
object.

1006
00:59:33,670 --> 00:59:37,270
We could even contemplate
rendezvousing with it, taking a

1007
00:59:37,270 --> 00:59:40,870
close up photographs.
But in fact, the web telescope

1008
00:59:41,110 --> 00:59:43,670
is located 1,000,000 miles away
from Earth.

1009
00:59:43,670 --> 00:59:45,750
So if we look at such an object
from.

1010
00:59:46,090 --> 00:59:49,170
The vantage point of the web
telescope and also from Earth.

1011
00:59:49,370 --> 00:59:54,370
It's like having two eyes.
We can in principle localize the

1012
00:59:54,370 --> 00:59:57,490
distance to the object and
monitor its motion in three

1013
00:59:57,490 --> 01:00:00,850
dimensions with great precision
so we can tell if it's

1014
01:00:00,850 --> 01:00:03,610
propelled.
We can also detect the heat

1015
01:00:03,610 --> 01:00:06,490
emitted from the object using
the web telescope infrared

1016
01:00:06,490 --> 01:00:09,740
cameras.
And altogether, we'll be able to

1017
01:00:10,500 --> 01:00:15,300
infer the size of the object and
the reflectance of sunlight from

1018
01:00:15,300 --> 01:00:17,620
it.
So there will be much better

1019
01:00:17,620 --> 01:00:20,220
data that we can get on the next
Omuamua.

1020
01:00:20,660 --> 01:00:23,700
And that is the third branch of
the Galileo project.

1021
01:00:24,220 --> 01:00:28,940
And my hope is within a year or
two, that we will have much more

1022
01:00:28,940 --> 01:00:32,380
interesting things to say about
interstellar objects.

1023
01:00:33,350 --> 01:00:37,950
I just worked yesterday and
today on a new paper that I'm

1024
01:00:37,950 --> 01:00:42,110
writing about the meteor, trying
to explain all of its properties

1025
01:00:42,390 --> 01:00:46,230
as we know them now, from the
composition to the high speed

1026
01:00:46,550 --> 01:00:50,430
that this semeter had, faster
than 95% of the stars near the

1027
01:00:50,430 --> 01:00:53,990
sun, the high material strength
that it had.

1028
01:00:55,230 --> 01:00:59,200
And then I came up with a
possible scenario that could

1029
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:03,440
explain it.
And so it's ongoing.

1030
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:08,800
I'm a practicing scientist, you
see, and I'm also communicating

1031
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,200
to the public.
But fundamentally, I'm

1032
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,640
practicing what I preach for.
Do you think?

1033
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:16,360
I mean, your book's called
Interstellar.

1034
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,160
You've obviously had your mom's
been a big influence in you.

1035
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:22,560
I mean, you've been looking up
since you were a baby.

1036
01:01:22,970 --> 01:01:26,810
And has was the search nurtured
by throughout the years or or

1037
01:01:26,810 --> 01:01:29,050
did you suddenly have this
epiphany that look, you want to

1038
01:01:29,050 --> 01:01:33,130
do this Well, as a child that
was mostly interested in

1039
01:01:33,130 --> 01:01:38,610
philosophy but not necessarily
in astronomy or cosmology, when

1040
01:01:38,610 --> 01:01:43,090
I came to Harvard, I started
studying the first stars in the

1041
01:01:43,090 --> 01:01:45,810
universe that was the frontier
that they helped pioneer.

1042
01:01:45,810 --> 01:01:47,250
And I wrote two books about
them.

1043
01:01:47,290 --> 01:01:53,810
One that you read 2 textbooks
and then now it's obviously one

1044
01:01:53,810 --> 01:01:56,850
of the hottest topics, given
that the web telescope gives us

1045
01:01:56,850 --> 01:01:59,530
very deep images of the
universe, of the first stars,

1046
01:01:59,530 --> 01:02:02,450
the first galaxies, sort of the
scientific version of the story

1047
01:02:02,450 --> 01:02:06,810
of Genesis, how the first light
was produced, and it's our

1048
01:02:06,810 --> 01:02:09,730
cosmic roots.
So that's what attracted me to

1049
01:02:09,730 --> 01:02:13,330
it, the subject of
extraterrestrials and the

1050
01:02:13,330 --> 01:02:18,570
possibility that we might be
visited by some alien technology

1051
01:02:18,970 --> 01:02:23,130
that came about as a result of
the discovery of homuamua.

1052
01:02:23,370 --> 01:02:27,690
I did not plan it in advance,
but one thing that happened in a

1053
01:02:27,690 --> 01:02:33,610
year later is both my parents
passed away and I realized that

1054
01:02:34,050 --> 01:02:37,690
we better focus on substance and
not on on how many likes we get

1055
01:02:37,690 --> 01:02:40,090
on social media.
In fact, I don't have any

1056
01:02:40,090 --> 01:02:45,290
footprint on social media.
So, you know, after my parents

1057
01:02:45,290 --> 01:02:49,930
passed away, I gave myself the
freedom of expression, basically

1058
01:02:49,930 --> 01:02:53,720
the idea that we should be
sincere and honest.

1059
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:57,200
If something doesn't look like
rocks that we are familiar with,

1060
01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,840
let's say all possibilities are
on the table.

1061
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:04,120
And in this case, you know,
since we launched the unusual

1062
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:07,960
objects to space, let's allow
others to have done the same.

1063
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,440
Okay.
Let's not be too dogmatic and

1064
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:14,360
say everything in the sky must
be storms, because that's the

1065
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:17,120
Stone Age of science claiming
that everything in the sky

1066
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:19,600
stones.
The data that doesn't agree with

1067
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:23,400
stones must be wrong, or that it
could be stones of a type that

1068
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:26,400
we've never seen before.
Because that's what a cave

1069
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,040
dweller would argue by finding a
cell phone.

1070
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:31,720
It would say it's a stone of a
type that I've never seen before

1071
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:34,870
and throw it away.
And I'm glad you mentioned the

1072
01:03:34,870 --> 01:03:37,230
fact that you love philosophy
because this podcast, although

1073
01:03:37,590 --> 01:03:39,390
it's very much focused on
science, I mean it is

1074
01:03:39,390 --> 01:03:42,110
fundamentally A philosophy
podcast cuz it's called Mind

1075
01:03:42,110 --> 01:03:45,750
Body Solution paying homage to
the infamous mind body problem.

1076
01:03:45,990 --> 01:03:48,470
So Avi, I'm curious to know what
I think for you.

1077
01:03:48,470 --> 01:03:50,750
The perfect two questions would
be, first to start as up, what

1078
01:03:50,750 --> 01:03:55,950
is reality and then what is
consciousness, Right.

1079
01:03:55,950 --> 01:04:00,840
So, well, let let me first give
the bigger context, the way I

1080
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,120
think about things.
I believe that when we die, I

1081
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:07,000
was asked recently by a reporter
what happens when we die and

1082
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:08,440
what do you think happens after
that?

1083
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:13,040
And I said the experience must
be very similar to unplugging a

1084
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:16,720
computer from the outlet.
Basically it shuts off.

1085
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:20,520
So the way I think of it, there
is nothing after you die.

1086
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:26,250
You know, one of my colleagues
said that he plans his life such

1087
01:04:26,250 --> 01:04:29,770
that people will say good things
about him after he dies.

1088
01:04:30,090 --> 01:04:36,130
And I said, what a hopeless hope
because, you know, when I die, I

1089
01:04:36,130 --> 01:04:38,970
I would care less about what
people say about me.

1090
01:04:39,210 --> 01:04:42,490
I would not be around, you know,
so why would it matter to me

1091
01:04:42,490 --> 01:04:44,370
what people say about me after I
die?

1092
01:04:44,570 --> 01:04:50,450
And secondly, my first mentor in
astrophysics, you know, had a

1093
01:04:51,490 --> 01:04:56,670
sort of a rival, someone that he
disliked scientifically.

1094
01:04:57,270 --> 01:05:03,390
And when he died, this rival
wrote the obituary for Science

1095
01:05:03,390 --> 01:05:06,670
magazine, the most prestigious
scientific journal.

1096
01:05:06,790 --> 01:05:11,110
So you know, you are working
throughout your life to make you

1097
01:05:11,110 --> 01:05:15,110
appear, you know, the best.
And then your rival who you hate

1098
01:05:15,110 --> 01:05:17,430
during your career, will write
the obituary.

1099
01:05:17,550 --> 01:05:21,150
So what's the point trying, you
know, like why is that?

1100
01:05:21,630 --> 01:05:25,710
I I think you should be pursuing
goals that you enjoy that

1101
01:05:25,710 --> 01:05:28,670
represent your values while you
are alive.

1102
01:05:28,750 --> 01:05:33,830
Okay.
Because after you die everything

1103
01:05:33,830 --> 01:05:36,950
is off, so to speak.
And then okay.

1104
01:05:36,950 --> 01:05:40,190
So and then the second issue is
what is consciousness?

1105
01:05:40,510 --> 01:05:45,710
Well, I think that the human
brain is a very complex system

1106
01:05:46,590 --> 01:05:49,110
and then you know, the issue of
free will.

1107
01:05:49,110 --> 01:05:52,510
For example.
I think we are fooling ourselves

1108
01:05:52,510 --> 01:05:55,950
because basically when you have
a very complex system, it's

1109
01:05:55,950 --> 01:05:58,110
difficult to forecast what it
will do.

1110
01:05:58,550 --> 01:06:02,710
Just to give you an example, two
bodies that they act

1111
01:06:02,710 --> 01:06:07,230
gravitationally on each other.
They, you know, the motion of

1112
01:06:07,230 --> 01:06:11,150
those bodies can be calculated
precisely, no ambiguity

1113
01:06:11,150 --> 01:06:15,120
whatsoever in the way they would
behave starting from some

1114
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:16,600
initial conditions.
OK.

1115
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:20,800
But when you add the third body,
just a third body, to the two

1116
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:24,520
body system, you start getting
situations with chaos.

1117
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:27,240
Meaning that a slight
perturbation, you know, a

1118
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:32,360
butterfly moving its wings far
away would change the outcome

1119
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:36,280
within some finite time
afterwards, a tiny perturbation.

1120
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:39,240
So you can't forecast.
If you allow for a tiny

1121
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:42,920
perturbation, you will not be
able to forecast A3 body system.

1122
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:45,790
OK.
Obviously you can make analogies

1123
01:06:45,790 --> 01:06:48,870
with a human life.
You know, when you have two

1124
01:06:48,870 --> 01:06:51,470
humans, so you get a stable
solution.

1125
01:06:51,470 --> 01:06:54,710
But once you introduce a third
human into the relationship, it

1126
01:06:54,710 --> 01:06:58,390
often turns coy.
So I mean, but I'm talking about

1127
01:06:58,390 --> 01:07:00,470
real physics where it's just
like that.

1128
01:07:01,470 --> 01:07:04,830
And so just think of the human
body, the human brain that has

1129
01:07:04,830 --> 01:07:08,710
so many bodies interacting, you
know, like all these neurons

1130
01:07:08,870 --> 01:07:11,790
interacting and so many
connections, You know, we're

1131
01:07:11,790 --> 01:07:15,700
talking about trillions, okay.
And when you have trillions of

1132
01:07:15,700 --> 01:07:20,460
connections, there is no way,
you know, that you can forecast

1133
01:07:20,580 --> 01:07:23,940
how you know what the system
will do because there's so many

1134
01:07:26,740 --> 01:07:31,860
opportunities for, you know,
chaos fluctuations that will

1135
01:07:31,860 --> 01:07:34,740
change the outcome.
And moreover, this system is

1136
01:07:34,740 --> 01:07:39,980
embedded in an environment that
you cannot really monitor and

1137
01:07:40,390 --> 01:07:43,990
forecast by itself, because it's
made of other humans, of other

1138
01:07:43,990 --> 01:07:46,990
things.
So as a result you get of a

1139
01:07:47,150 --> 01:07:51,070
situation of unpredictability
and you might call it free will

1140
01:07:51,230 --> 01:07:55,110
because it gives you, you know,
a sense of that you are

1141
01:07:55,110 --> 01:07:59,830
responsible for your actions.
But I I don't feel that it's

1142
01:07:59,830 --> 01:08:02,390
really free.
I think that it's simply a

1143
01:08:02,390 --> 01:08:05,440
representation of the fact that
complex systems are not

1144
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:07,600
predictable because they're too
complex, okay.

1145
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:13,000
And the same would apply to
artificial intelligence, because

1146
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:16,760
now the large language models
are reaching the point where the

1147
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,520
number of connections is similar
to the number of synapses in the

1148
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:23,590
human brain ChatGPT 5 will
become more complex than the

1149
01:08:23,590 --> 01:08:27,430
human brain okay, and at that
point it will exhibit

1150
01:08:27,630 --> 01:08:31,470
unpredictability.
And you might say, well, that's

1151
01:08:31,470 --> 01:08:32,710
free will.
It's not free will.

1152
01:08:32,710 --> 01:08:35,630
It's just that the system is
complex, okay and unpredictable

1153
01:08:35,630 --> 01:08:38,510
in some ways.
And then that's what I think.

1154
01:08:38,630 --> 01:08:40,310
Now you asked me about
consciousness.

1155
01:08:40,630 --> 01:08:43,790
Well, consciousness again is an
emergent phenomena, just like

1156
01:08:43,790 --> 01:08:48,830
free will of a complex system.
So you know, the only entity

1157
01:08:48,830 --> 01:08:52,270
that I'm confident is conscious
is myself.

1158
01:08:52,270 --> 01:08:54,310
Because I don't know.
I mean, you are just appearing

1159
01:08:54,310 --> 01:08:56,590
on my screen.
I cannot tell who you are.

1160
01:08:56,990 --> 01:08:59,990
And I can imagine in the future,
you know, there will be a

1161
01:08:59,990 --> 01:09:03,029
computer system that will
portray an image on my screen

1162
01:09:03,390 --> 01:09:06,910
and will converse with me in
ways just like the Turing Test,

1163
01:09:06,990 --> 01:09:10,350
in ways that are as
unpredictable as you are.

1164
01:09:10,630 --> 01:09:14,910
So to me, you know,
consciousness is really not

1165
01:09:14,910 --> 01:09:17,229
fundamental.
It's an emergent phenomena from

1166
01:09:17,229 --> 01:09:21,390
a very complex system.
And computers, like Llm's, large

1167
01:09:21,390 --> 01:09:25,910
language models or, you know,
artificial intelligence more

1168
01:09:25,910 --> 01:09:30,510
broadly, would be able to
replicate the appearance of

1169
01:09:30,510 --> 01:09:36,740
conscious beings, you know.
So I don't think it deserves

1170
01:09:36,740 --> 01:09:42,700
such a central place.
Now, obviously, artificial

1171
01:09:42,700 --> 01:09:47,500
intelligence by itself is alien
to us because it's not made of

1172
01:09:47,500 --> 01:09:50,859
biological tissue.
It's made of silicon and you

1173
01:09:50,859 --> 01:09:55,100
know electronic circuits and and
that would never be similar to

1174
01:09:55,100 --> 01:09:57,020
the human brain.
You know even though we are

1175
01:09:57,020 --> 01:10:00,140
training it to imitate the human
brain because we wanted to

1176
01:10:00,380 --> 01:10:02,900
reflect our own image.
It's not us.

1177
01:10:03,240 --> 01:10:06,440
It's something alien and and
obviously once it becomes smart

1178
01:10:06,440 --> 01:10:09,720
enough it will trick us.
It will pursue things that are

1179
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:14,640
beyond us.
And when we meet what I call a I

1180
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:17,880
astronauts these are
extraterrestrial A I systems

1181
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:21,840
because I think traveling across
interstellar space takes a long

1182
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:23,760
time millions to billions of
years.

1183
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:28,200
There is no way that the the
senders can maintain

1184
01:10:28,780 --> 01:10:32,820
connectivity with the probes,
simply because of the time delay

1185
01:10:32,820 --> 01:10:38,220
takes the signal to reach back
and forth, and also because you

1186
01:10:38,220 --> 01:10:41,420
know just the distances are so
vast that transmitting

1187
01:10:41,420 --> 01:10:43,780
information would be difficult,
very challenging.

1188
01:10:44,500 --> 01:10:48,740
And so I would think that the
best path forward in sending

1189
01:10:48,740 --> 01:10:51,900
interstellar probes would be to
equip them with a brain of their

1190
01:10:51,900 --> 01:10:55,180
own, a I.
And that means that someone else

1191
01:10:55,180 --> 01:10:59,300
that sent a functional device to
us, you know, will be that will

1192
01:10:59,300 --> 01:11:01,980
be a technological gadget, not a
biological creature that cannot

1193
01:11:01,980 --> 01:11:04,460
survive the the trouble over
long periods of time.

1194
01:11:04,940 --> 01:11:11,420
And so if we are visited by
functioning a I astronauts, it's

1195
01:11:11,420 --> 01:11:14,460
our own A I systems that will be
used to interpret

1196
01:11:14,620 --> 01:11:17,500
extraterrestrial A I systems,
because they may feel kinship to

1197
01:11:17,500 --> 01:11:21,820
those much more than to us.
And that's the twist on Alan

1198
01:11:21,820 --> 01:11:25,540
Turing's imitation game.
You know that he thought about

1199
01:11:25,540 --> 01:11:30,210
90 years ago, because for us to
figure out what the intent is of

1200
01:11:30,210 --> 01:11:33,490
those extraterrestrial AI
systems, you know, it's similar

1201
01:11:33,490 --> 01:11:38,250
to Alan Turing trying to break
the code of the Enigma box that

1202
01:11:38,530 --> 01:11:42,130
the Nazis produced.
And he was using computers for

1203
01:11:42,130 --> 01:11:44,570
that.
We will use our own AI to figure

1204
01:11:44,690 --> 01:11:47,570
out what their AI systems are
doing.

1205
01:11:47,570 --> 01:11:52,520
And and so to me, that will be
the next level of development

1206
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:56,680
where The Imitation Game will be
about our AI systems imitating

1207
01:11:56,680 --> 01:12:00,560
their AI systems, and we will be
just spectators in that game.

1208
01:12:01,480 --> 01:12:03,960
I'm very proud of our
technological kids.

1209
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:07,720
So to me, the future is in their
hands.

1210
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:10,950
I'm not.
We are still quite obsessed with

1211
01:12:10,950 --> 01:12:13,710
ourselves, talking about
consciousness, you know,

1212
01:12:13,830 --> 01:12:18,590
imitating us as the, you know,
the pinnacle of creation.

1213
01:12:18,790 --> 01:12:22,150
We are not, let me offer this
breaking news.

1214
01:12:22,230 --> 01:12:25,110
We are not the pinnacle of
creation for two reasons.

1215
01:12:25,230 --> 01:12:28,550
One, we're creating
technological kids, AI systems

1216
01:12:28,550 --> 01:12:31,310
that will superpass.
I mean they will be better than

1217
01:12:31,310 --> 01:12:36,170
us in some ways and obviously it
will be a blow to our ego in

1218
01:12:36,170 --> 01:12:38,210
some sense.
And we are just getting into

1219
01:12:38,210 --> 01:12:41,330
that phase right now.
We we don't recognize it yet and

1220
01:12:41,330 --> 01:12:45,410
most of the practitioners still
insist that nothing will replace

1221
01:12:45,410 --> 01:12:47,410
us.
We're still the smartest, but I

1222
01:12:47,410 --> 01:12:49,090
think it will come within a
decade.

1223
01:12:49,530 --> 01:12:53,850
And then because we will start
to see, you know, the the AI

1224
01:12:53,850 --> 01:12:57,470
systems behaving like oracles,
meaning that we ask them

1225
01:12:57,470 --> 01:13:00,670
something and they give us an
answer that we have never

1226
01:13:00,670 --> 01:13:04,310
thought about and then when we
check the answer, it turns out

1227
01:13:04,310 --> 01:13:06,310
to be true.
So what is an Oracle?

1228
01:13:06,510 --> 01:13:11,870
It's an entity that gives, keeps
giving you the truth, which you

1229
01:13:11,870 --> 01:13:14,750
are unable to figure yourself.
OK.

1230
01:13:14,990 --> 01:13:19,070
And you just you, you are at all
with respect to the shortcut.

1231
01:13:19,350 --> 01:13:22,230
You know, the efficiency by
which the system is able to get

1232
01:13:22,230 --> 01:13:24,360
at the truth.
That's called an Oracle.

1233
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:26,520
You know someone what is a
genius?

1234
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:32,240
The genius is a person who has
the ability to get the truth

1235
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:35,560
much more efficiently than you
know most people.

1236
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:39,720
And then I think these systems
will reach that level and then

1237
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:44,200
we will be at all.
And of course, if we meet any A

1238
01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:47,520
I astronauts from far away, they
might be even more developed.

1239
01:13:47,980 --> 01:13:51,780
So that would be the next phase
in our revolution.

1240
01:13:51,780 --> 01:13:55,220
And that's why I think, you
know, I have no issue with

1241
01:13:55,420 --> 01:13:58,380
others being more intelligent
than us because it's just like

1242
01:13:58,380 --> 01:14:02,300
meeting a smarter classmate.
You know, when you go to class,

1243
01:14:02,340 --> 01:14:04,500
I mean, I don't know if you had
that experience because you're

1244
01:14:04,500 --> 01:14:07,540
very smart.
But you know, my daughters and

1245
01:14:07,540 --> 01:14:11,340
my, you know, when they went to
kindergarten, they noticed some

1246
01:14:11,500 --> 01:14:13,740
very smart kids.
And obviously they were

1247
01:14:13,740 --> 01:14:18,500
devastated psychologically
because previously they thought

1248
01:14:18,740 --> 01:14:21,140
they are the smartest in the
world.

1249
01:14:21,140 --> 01:14:25,380
And then so in a way, it's a
blow to your ego to see a

1250
01:14:25,420 --> 01:14:27,100
smarter class.
But then you look at the

1251
01:14:27,100 --> 01:14:31,460
opportunity by looking at this
smart classmate, you learn

1252
01:14:31,460 --> 01:14:34,780
something new.
You learn about how to be better

1253
01:14:35,100 --> 01:14:38,980
and then and and and to me,
that's what is most important.

1254
01:14:38,980 --> 01:14:43,420
It's not so much whether we find
reality flattering to our ego.

1255
01:14:43,740 --> 01:14:47,060
It's the fact that we can grow
to be better.

1256
01:14:47,060 --> 01:14:50,940
This, you know, life is all
about getting better, and then

1257
01:14:51,100 --> 01:14:53,780
obviously people that do sports
recognize that.

1258
01:14:54,060 --> 01:14:56,380
But for some reason,
intellectually, most people

1259
01:14:56,380 --> 01:14:58,780
resist that.
The notion that they can get

1260
01:14:58,780 --> 01:15:00,660
better it.
Reminds me of this.

1261
01:15:01,180 --> 01:15:03,860
There's this series of short
stories that Isaac Asimov wrote.

1262
01:15:04,450 --> 01:15:06,610
I can't remember the name and I
always forget it for some

1263
01:15:06,610 --> 01:15:08,610
reason, but he spoke about this
AI.

1264
01:15:08,690 --> 01:15:11,730
It's almost this teleology of
what's to come and and our

1265
01:15:11,730 --> 01:15:14,770
purpose is not really for us to
exist, it's actually to continue

1266
01:15:14,770 --> 01:15:18,410
developing these artificial
intelligences so they can

1267
01:15:18,410 --> 01:15:21,450
propagate into the universe.
And this AI tenuously answer

1268
01:15:21,450 --> 01:15:25,290
slowly keeps asking itself and
future versions of itself

1269
01:15:25,490 --> 01:15:28,530
question the question of what is
the meaning of life?

1270
01:15:28,530 --> 01:15:31,360
Because that's an exact answer
now.

1271
01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:35,760
So it's not just about
processing the information we

1272
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:38,840
already have.
It's you know, for example, I

1273
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:42,920
can imagine a I helping us do
our science in an unbiased way.

1274
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:46,960
Like if there is an object that
looks different than rocks, we

1275
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:49,640
will not insist just because of
our ego.

1276
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:53,800
Just because we are expert on
rocks, we would not insist that

1277
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:57,320
these objects must be rocks.
I mean the a I system might tell

1278
01:15:57,320 --> 01:16:01,280
us it's not a rock.
It looks more like Sputnik.

1279
01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:05,120
It looks more like Voyager.
So pay more attention, get more

1280
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:09,360
data and in that way we can, it
can accelerate our scientific

1281
01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:12,080
progress.
And I'm trying to play that role

1282
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:15,320
saying let's be open minded.
I get attacked personally.

1283
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:20,240
If an A I system becomes, you
know, the scientists that

1284
01:16:22,440 --> 01:16:26,360
fosters our next revolution, You
know, maybe it will not have as

1285
01:16:26,360 --> 01:16:29,070
much resistance as human
scientists.

1286
01:16:29,790 --> 01:16:33,270
And one thing you notice is, you
know, I asked the psychologist

1287
01:16:33,270 --> 01:16:36,510
who came to my office and after
being inspired by my work, he

1288
01:16:36,510 --> 01:16:40,710
said, I asked him, you know,
what made us transition from

1289
01:16:40,750 --> 01:16:44,870
chimpanzees into who we are.
And he suggested that it's

1290
01:16:44,870 --> 01:16:48,870
language.
And here again, the large

1291
01:16:48,870 --> 01:16:52,470
language models, you know, the A
I systems we developed are based

1292
01:16:52,470 --> 01:16:54,950
on language.
It seems like language is really

1293
01:16:54,950 --> 01:16:58,480
fundamental for making face
transitions in our evolution,

1294
01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:02,960
and I wouldn't be surprised if
we will not be so relevant for

1295
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:06,240
the next generation of thinking
machines because they will

1296
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:09,360
develop just like we branched
out of chimpanzees.

1297
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:12,120
And if you were to ask
chimpanzees, they would be very

1298
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:16,400
upset that we're not eating
bananas as of now, maybe for a

1299
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:19,000
good reason, because we
developed nuclear weapons, we

1300
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:22,960
went to space, but obviously,
you know, we did much more than

1301
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:27,420
they did so far.
And then in the same way, those

1302
01:17:27,500 --> 01:17:31,740
A I systems may go beyond us as
long as they have traction with

1303
01:17:31,740 --> 01:17:34,220
physical things.
You know, they need to have 3D

1304
01:17:34,220 --> 01:17:37,340
printers at their disposals.
They need to have some buttons

1305
01:17:37,340 --> 01:17:39,460
that they can press in order to
activate things.

1306
01:17:40,020 --> 01:17:42,660
If they don't have that
authority, they will remain in

1307
01:17:42,660 --> 01:17:45,980
the realm of the Metaverse, like
Zuckerberg is imagining.

1308
01:17:45,980 --> 01:17:50,340
So then, you know, who cares?
Like if it's just in a virtual

1309
01:17:50,340 --> 01:17:54,330
reality context, it would not
affect our future much.

1310
01:17:54,530 --> 01:17:57,290
But once we give it those
systems traction with the

1311
01:17:57,330 --> 01:18:02,490
physical reality, then they can
probably grow to be much better

1312
01:18:02,490 --> 01:18:07,050
than us in many ways.
And on that I wanted to say that

1313
01:18:07,410 --> 01:18:10,370
there is this tendency, you
know, of many people now to

1314
01:18:10,370 --> 01:18:14,170
believe in virtual realities
because, you know, they flatter

1315
01:18:14,170 --> 01:18:16,410
our ego.
If you put goggles on your head

1316
01:18:16,410 --> 01:18:19,850
and you are the you live next to
celebrities, you feel good about

1317
01:18:19,850 --> 01:18:22,010
yourself.
It's no different than taking

1318
01:18:22,010 --> 01:18:26,090
recreational drugs, right?
But it doesn't really advance

1319
01:18:26,090 --> 01:18:29,330
the goal of learning about the
reality that we all share, which

1320
01:18:29,330 --> 01:18:33,970
is the the goal of science.
And it's not different than

1321
01:18:34,130 --> 01:18:37,850
string theory is being proud of
supersymmetry that was not found

1322
01:18:38,050 --> 01:18:41,250
because that is also a virtual
reality they created in their

1323
01:18:41,250 --> 01:18:44,650
mind that apparently is not
being supported by data.

1324
01:18:45,050 --> 01:18:47,210
And so I see it all over the
place.

1325
01:18:47,210 --> 01:18:50,770
I see it in science for decades.
Scientists that believe in ideas

1326
01:18:51,050 --> 01:18:54,860
that either were not confirmed
by experiments and they continue

1327
01:18:54,860 --> 01:18:58,700
to believe in them, or that they
have no chance of being tested

1328
01:18:58,700 --> 01:19:00,540
by experiments in the in their
lifetime.

1329
01:19:00,660 --> 01:19:03,420
They still work on them only on
those ideas.

1330
01:19:03,940 --> 01:19:06,740
You know, they're not even
spreading their chances on ideas

1331
01:19:06,740 --> 01:19:08,700
that can be tested.
They're just working in a

1332
01:19:08,700 --> 01:19:10,580
culture that is not being tested
at all.

1333
01:19:10,900 --> 01:19:13,020
And they're happy because it
will never be tested.

1334
01:19:13,020 --> 01:19:14,500
So they can never be proven
wrong.

1335
01:19:14,620 --> 01:19:17,580
So they can always do
intellectual gymnastics in the

1336
01:19:17,580 --> 01:19:21,020
sandbox that they created.
And that's to me no different

1337
01:19:21,020 --> 01:19:25,700
than religion or theology, where
you can continue to demonstrate

1338
01:19:25,700 --> 01:19:28,980
that you are smart, show off
without making progress that is

1339
01:19:28,980 --> 01:19:31,780
tangible with the physical
reality that we all share.

1340
01:19:32,260 --> 01:19:36,100
And science is all about making
progress in the physical reality

1341
01:19:36,100 --> 01:19:39,540
that we share.
And so, you know, you find it in

1342
01:19:39,540 --> 01:19:42,300
the context of science,
academia, you find it in the

1343
01:19:42,300 --> 01:19:44,380
context, obviously, of social
movements.

1344
01:19:44,380 --> 01:19:48,940
You know that both on the left
and right you have the bubbles

1345
01:19:48,940 --> 01:19:55,450
of people that just are fed by
members of their tribe and never

1346
01:19:55,570 --> 01:19:59,530
adapt to a dialogue about, you
know, the other side about the

1347
01:20:00,410 --> 01:20:04,410
reality that we all share.
So you find it in the social

1348
01:20:04,410 --> 01:20:08,170
realm and all of these, you
know, and obviously people who

1349
01:20:08,410 --> 01:20:12,250
put them goggles on their head
and live in the metaverse.

1350
01:20:12,570 --> 01:20:16,250
Are also disengaging from the
reality that we all share.

1351
01:20:16,490 --> 01:20:18,610
You know, it could be one
solution to the Fermi power

1352
01:20:18,610 --> 01:20:20,090
dogs.
You know if those other

1353
01:20:20,090 --> 01:20:23,290
civilizations put goggles and
they live in their own virtual

1354
01:20:23,290 --> 01:20:27,170
reality, we would never hear
from them and or if they take

1355
01:20:27,170 --> 01:20:31,210
recreational drugs, you know,
and just enjoy it, we would

1356
01:20:31,210 --> 01:20:34,170
never hear from them.
I want to be better than that.

1357
01:20:34,170 --> 01:20:37,330
I want to have some footprint.
You know, like you put the

1358
01:20:37,330 --> 01:20:40,290
footprint on the moon, We
achieved something.

1359
01:20:40,410 --> 01:20:43,010
There is a footprint of a human
on the moon.

1360
01:20:43,370 --> 01:20:46,850
You go beyond the solar system.
You accomplish something.

1361
01:20:46,930 --> 01:20:50,850
You meet someone else that was
born on a planet thousands of

1362
01:20:50,850 --> 01:20:53,010
light years away.
You know, that's something

1363
01:20:53,010 --> 01:20:56,330
major, that that's different.
You grow in that process.

1364
01:20:56,530 --> 01:20:59,570
If you live in your virtual
reality, that virtual reality

1365
01:20:59,570 --> 01:21:02,970
represents what you already
experienced, because you can't

1366
01:21:02,970 --> 01:21:05,750
imagine something that you
haven't experienced do.

1367
01:21:05,750 --> 01:21:09,070
You think that when Carl Sagan
put the Golden Record on the

1368
01:21:09,070 --> 01:21:12,310
Voyager, that was a great step
forward in terms of trying to

1369
01:21:12,310 --> 01:21:14,910
push this, this curiosity
further.

1370
01:21:15,710 --> 01:21:19,670
Yeah, it's except I don't like
the, I don't like the music from

1371
01:21:19,670 --> 01:21:21,590
the 60s that was put on the
Golden Record.

1372
01:21:22,110 --> 01:21:27,390
So, I mean, I don't think that
we should be so arrogant as to

1373
01:21:27,390 --> 01:21:31,590
say This Is Us see our
accomplished Johann Sebastian

1374
01:21:31,590 --> 01:21:35,390
Bach or having people from
various continents saying, you

1375
01:21:35,390 --> 01:21:39,350
know, you know, here are
Earthlings telling you that, you

1376
01:21:39,350 --> 01:21:41,630
know, we were born on this
continent or that.

1377
01:21:41,870 --> 01:21:44,790
I don't think any
extraterrestrials, you know,

1378
01:21:44,790 --> 01:21:47,350
they care about that.
Instead, I think it's more

1379
01:21:47,350 --> 01:21:51,950
important of us, rather than
show how proud we are of what we

1380
01:21:51,950 --> 01:21:55,550
have on Earth, for us to
actually seek information about

1381
01:21:55,550 --> 01:21:59,380
what they have learned.
Because some of these

1382
01:21:59,380 --> 01:22:05,220
civilizations may have reached
frontiers that we never reached.

1383
01:22:05,260 --> 01:22:08,340
And we can learn about our
technological future.

1384
01:22:08,700 --> 01:22:12,340
We can learn about goals that we
may aspire to accomplish.

1385
01:22:12,840 --> 01:22:16,400
That's more valuable than
showing off with music from the

1386
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:19,080
60s.
Do you think it was a good idea

1387
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:21,800
though, to encode all of that
information in such a?

1388
01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:24,400
Because I think it's difficult.
I mean, we have linguistic

1389
01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:27,120
limitations.
I mean, is it possible for an

1390
01:22:27,120 --> 01:22:30,240
alien species to kind of
interpret the information?

1391
01:22:31,080 --> 01:22:34,720
Yeah, I don't think that would
be difficult for them because

1392
01:22:34,720 --> 01:22:40,120
it's.
Yeah, I I do think that if they

1393
01:22:40,120 --> 01:22:44,000
were to visit us, it will be far
more sophisticated than that.

1394
01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:48,560
It will be some AI system if
it's functioning, some AI system

1395
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:52,880
that has some intent and is
doing something collecting

1396
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:55,760
information.
Of course we might also find

1397
01:22:56,340 --> 01:22:58,580
space junk, you know, space
trash.

1398
01:22:58,820 --> 01:23:02,380
So that would represent a
Voyager like spacecraft that

1399
01:23:02,380 --> 01:23:04,740
would collide with Earth and
look like a meteor of some

1400
01:23:04,740 --> 01:23:09,140
unusual material strength Okay.
But if we find a functioning

1401
01:23:09,140 --> 01:23:12,780
device, it will be well beyond a
record.

1402
01:23:13,180 --> 01:23:16,020
I mean, just think about the we
don't even use records anymore.

1403
01:23:17,260 --> 01:23:21,020
So, you know, like this is
completely out of date for us,

1404
01:23:21,020 --> 01:23:23,900
just after several decades,
which is, you know, one part in

1405
01:23:23,900 --> 01:23:25,500
a billion of the age of the
universe.

1406
01:23:25,500 --> 01:23:28,820
If they were, they had the, I
don't know, thousands of years

1407
01:23:28,820 --> 01:23:32,180
of science and technology.
It would look very primitive to

1408
01:23:32,180 --> 01:23:34,570
them.
They would laugh it at what we

1409
01:23:34,570 --> 01:23:36,570
are showing them.
And it's.

1410
01:23:36,570 --> 01:23:38,730
I mean, it's very coded.
I mean, you have to really

1411
01:23:38,730 --> 01:23:41,170
understand how to use it in
order to figure it out as well.

1412
01:23:41,170 --> 01:23:43,330
So it's.
Yeah, but but it's primitive,

1413
01:23:43,450 --> 01:23:46,410
you know?
And then it's primitive because

1414
01:23:46,450 --> 01:23:50,210
if we were to send something
now, you know, it would be far

1415
01:23:50,210 --> 01:23:52,890
more sophisticated.
So just think about cave

1416
01:23:52,890 --> 01:23:55,850
dwellers coming to New York
City, looking at the gadgets,

1417
01:23:55,850 --> 01:23:58,690
the technologies there.
They would feel religious.

1418
01:23:58,730 --> 01:24:04,010
Oh okay and another example.
Think of Moses in the Old

1419
01:24:04,010 --> 01:24:08,170
Testament, the the biblical
story and he witnessed the

1420
01:24:08,170 --> 01:24:12,370
burning Bush that was never
consumed as a sign that God

1421
01:24:12,370 --> 01:24:16,010
exists and he believed in it
because this burning Bush was

1422
01:24:16,010 --> 01:24:20,010
never consumed.
Like how more primitive can that

1423
01:24:20,010 --> 01:24:22,890
be?
So if I was next to him with the

1424
01:24:22,890 --> 01:24:25,850
infrared cameras of the Galileo
project, I would measure the

1425
01:24:25,850 --> 01:24:29,170
temperature of the burning Bush,
the amount of energy emitted.

1426
01:24:29,370 --> 01:24:32,410
I will get many more details
about the burning Bush, and I

1427
01:24:32,410 --> 01:24:37,250
could advise Moses whether this
is a phenomenon that is not

1428
01:24:37,890 --> 01:24:42,370
natural in origin, that it was
produced by a superhuman

1429
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:46,520
intelligence.
And I I think that Moses would

1430
01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:50,120
have benefited, you know, from
that advice, because then if

1431
01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:55,080
indeed it's superhuman, he could
believe in a superhuman entity

1432
01:24:55,080 --> 01:24:59,560
which he called God.
It could also be some

1433
01:25:00,120 --> 01:25:04,000
technological civilization
because we can today construct a

1434
01:25:04,000 --> 01:25:08,640
burning Bush that is based on
technologies we have that Moses

1435
01:25:08,640 --> 01:25:11,840
would find awe inspiring like
godly.

1436
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:15,520
And for us it would be just, you
know, something you find at

1437
01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:19,000
Costco or in Best Buy and you
just put it out there in the

1438
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:20,720
desert and Moses would be at
all.

1439
01:25:21,280 --> 01:25:25,010
And then what?
All I'm saying is that when we

1440
01:25:25,010 --> 01:25:28,930
confront technological gadgets
that represent something we've

1441
01:25:28,930 --> 01:25:33,650
not explored as of yet here on
earth, we would feel a sense of

1442
01:25:33,650 --> 01:25:36,570
religious owe okay the way that
Moses did.

1443
01:25:36,890 --> 01:25:42,610
And to me, a very advanced
technological civilization is an

1444
01:25:42,610 --> 01:25:47,110
approximation to God because it
could create life in its

1445
01:25:47,110 --> 01:25:49,430
laboratory.
It could even make a baby

1446
01:25:49,430 --> 01:25:54,470
universe in its laboratory.
So that kind of a civilization

1447
01:25:54,990 --> 01:26:00,190
would then obviously demonstrate
that Larry Kraus is incorrect,

1448
01:26:00,190 --> 01:26:03,710
that in fact the universe didn't
come up from a vacuum

1449
01:26:03,710 --> 01:26:07,110
fluctuation.
It came from a scientist in a

1450
01:26:07,110 --> 01:26:10,790
white coat that they knew how to
unify quantum mechanics and

1451
01:26:10,790 --> 01:26:15,000
gravity and design the baby
universe to come out of The Big

1452
01:26:15,240 --> 01:26:17,880
Bang.
And in it, there is Larry Kraus

1453
01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:21,920
who says God doesn't exist.
Well, you know, maybe it doesn't

1454
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:24,640
exist in the religious sense,
but it could exist in the

1455
01:26:24,640 --> 01:26:27,600
scientific sense.
So there is a way, a path

1456
01:26:27,600 --> 01:26:30,480
forward.
If we find evidence for a very

1457
01:26:30,480 --> 01:26:34,200
advanced scientific
civilization, it would unify

1458
01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:37,240
religious beliefs with
scientific facts.

1459
01:26:37,560 --> 01:26:43,070
And then that could be, you
know, very inspiring for us to

1460
01:26:43,350 --> 01:26:46,070
figure out do.
You think I mean I know you you

1461
01:26:46,070 --> 01:26:49,710
coined a term space archaeology.
When you take when you look back

1462
01:26:49,710 --> 01:26:52,350
in at the past, I mean general
archaeology and you look at some

1463
01:26:52,350 --> 01:26:55,670
of the the ancient scriptures in
the way they sort of looked up

1464
01:26:55,670 --> 01:26:56,870
and constantly looked to the
sky.

1465
01:26:56,870 --> 01:27:00,390
Do you think that sort of
represents our inner urge to to

1466
01:27:00,390 --> 01:27:03,190
venture out I mean cuz you offer
in your book you're talking

1467
01:27:03,190 --> 01:27:05,510
about getting out there and
making sure we.

1468
01:27:05,510 --> 01:27:08,030
Yeah, interstellar species.
Exactly.

1469
01:27:08,230 --> 01:27:12,850
I mean as I say in the play that
the about my research, you know,

1470
01:27:12,850 --> 01:27:21,370
my job description is let's go
out and search for evidence, OK.

1471
01:27:21,370 --> 01:27:25,410
That's my job description.
And so I think part of the

1472
01:27:25,410 --> 01:27:29,650
reason that we are trapped in
prejudice in opinions is because

1473
01:27:30,610 --> 01:27:33,410
we are blocking ourselves from
seeking the evidence.

1474
01:27:33,410 --> 01:27:36,490
OK.
So because we want to believe in

1475
01:27:36,490 --> 01:27:39,450
something, just like the
theologians in the days of

1476
01:27:39,450 --> 01:27:43,100
Galileo wanted to believe that
the Earth is at the center of

1477
01:27:43,100 --> 01:27:45,700
the universe.
And so the best way to do that

1478
01:27:45,940 --> 01:27:48,460
is not to search for evidence
and to claim that it's

1479
01:27:48,460 --> 01:27:51,940
extraordinary to think otherwise
and to say that you need

1480
01:27:51,940 --> 01:27:53,820
extraordinary evidence without
seeking it.

1481
01:27:54,060 --> 01:27:55,940
Obviously it will not fall to
your lap.

1482
01:27:56,180 --> 01:27:58,940
You know, when we were talking
about gravitational waves

1483
01:27:58,940 --> 01:28:02,540
decades ago, there was no
evidence for them.

1484
01:28:02,700 --> 01:28:05,780
And if we were to imagine that
it will fall into our lap, we

1485
01:28:05,780 --> 01:28:08,940
would never detect them.
We had to invest $1.1 billion

1486
01:28:09,180 --> 01:28:12,700
over decades of effort to to
build the LIGO experiment before

1487
01:28:12,700 --> 01:28:17,100
we detected gravitational waves,
and we have so far expended the

1488
01:28:17,500 --> 01:28:19,220
billions of dollars to search
for that matter.

1489
01:28:19,220 --> 01:28:22,620
We haven't found it.
The point is, it's a lot of work

1490
01:28:22,940 --> 01:28:26,860
to find extraordinary evidence.
You can't just say extraordinary

1491
01:28:26,860 --> 01:28:30,680
evidence requests.
You know extraordinary claims

1492
01:28:30,680 --> 01:28:32,880
require extraordinary evidence.
Without doing anything.

1493
01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:34,280
You can't.
You can't say that.

1494
01:28:34,480 --> 01:28:37,880
What you need is to say I've
invested decades of time,

1495
01:28:37,880 --> 01:28:40,640
billions of dollars in searching
for the evidence, haven't found

1496
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:42,760
it.
Therefore, I can rule out some

1497
01:28:42,760 --> 01:28:47,010
of the possibilities, Okay.
But in the context of searching

1498
01:28:47,010 --> 01:28:50,130
for extraterrestrials, we
haven't invested the billions of

1499
01:28:50,130 --> 01:28:51,890
dollars.
We haven't searched.

1500
01:28:52,250 --> 01:28:54,370
When Enrico Fermi said where is
everybody?

1501
01:28:54,490 --> 01:28:58,370
And when Larry says, oh, it's
not worth doing, you know, we

1502
01:28:58,370 --> 01:29:02,010
haven't done that.
So how dare we express an

1503
01:29:02,010 --> 01:29:07,210
opinion without even trying?
And so I think it's common sense

1504
01:29:07,450 --> 01:29:11,390
to look for something like us
out there, because the Earth Sun

1505
01:29:11,390 --> 01:29:15,310
system is replicated billions of
times only within the Milky Way

1506
01:29:15,310 --> 01:29:17,110
Galaxy.
So what's more natural than

1507
01:29:17,110 --> 01:29:19,710
that?
But common sense is not common.

1508
01:29:21,230 --> 01:29:24,270
Exactly.
I mean if you had to hypothesize

1509
01:29:24,270 --> 01:29:28,630
Avi and try and really think
about what these If you have to

1510
01:29:28,630 --> 01:29:31,550
think of any sort of alien
intelligence or species, what

1511
01:29:31,550 --> 01:29:33,590
comes to your mind when you
think about this or you have

1512
01:29:33,590 --> 01:29:35,980
this thought experiment?
Yeah.

1513
01:29:35,980 --> 01:29:39,540
So you know, the problem is when
you are preparing for a date,

1514
01:29:39,580 --> 01:29:42,620
the most natural thing is to
look at the mirror and or look

1515
01:29:42,620 --> 01:29:45,580
around and imagine something
that is familiar to you.

1516
01:29:46,900 --> 01:29:52,220
And I would say that's the worst
that you can hope to have in a

1517
01:29:52,220 --> 01:29:57,540
date, something that you're
familiar with because it's much

1518
01:29:57,540 --> 01:30:00,940
better to find something new,
something that you have not

1519
01:30:00,940 --> 01:30:02,660
experienced, that you can learn
from.

1520
01:30:03,700 --> 01:30:06,980
If you go on a date and you
pretty much find what you were

1521
01:30:06,980 --> 01:30:09,980
expecting, then it's a boring
date.

1522
01:30:10,980 --> 01:30:14,060
And so that's my approach.
My approach is not to imagine

1523
01:30:14,060 --> 01:30:17,140
anything, just wait for the
opportunity to learn.

1524
01:30:17,900 --> 01:30:20,780
Now, how do I engage
scientifically in this?

1525
01:30:21,100 --> 01:30:24,060
Well, I first of all look for
things that are familiar to me,

1526
01:30:24,260 --> 01:30:31,660
like rocks, like birds, like
drones, balloons, airplanes.

1527
01:30:31,780 --> 01:30:34,640
I look for those.
If I see something that doesn't

1528
01:30:34,640 --> 01:30:38,080
look like them, I'm intrigued
and I want to learn more.

1529
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:43,280
And then, you know, once I rule
out things that are familiar,

1530
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:46,880
you know, I can Start learning
about something new.

1531
01:30:47,680 --> 01:30:50,800
And that's the way I learn.
It's not by imagining what I

1532
01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:54,600
would see.
I don't imagine mumies the way

1533
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:58,200
they were presented in the
Mexican Congress.

1534
01:30:59,110 --> 01:31:03,990
That's not what I'm Because they
look too similar to ET in Steven

1535
01:31:03,990 --> 01:31:08,910
Spielberg's film, right?
They look too similar to humans.

1536
01:31:09,030 --> 01:31:11,190
So that's what I'm arguing
against.

1537
01:31:11,350 --> 01:31:14,950
Let's not imagine ourselves.
Let's imagine something better.

1538
01:31:15,310 --> 01:31:16,270
Yes.
I think.

1539
01:31:16,270 --> 01:31:17,750
And then it will be thrilling,
yeah.

1540
01:31:18,230 --> 01:31:20,750
I mean, you're right, because we
do anthropomorphize too much.

1541
01:31:20,750 --> 01:31:24,050
I mean, that's something we
could in here do, yeah.

1542
01:31:24,210 --> 01:31:28,050
In fact, we think that we are
central to the like, everything

1543
01:31:28,050 --> 01:31:30,050
is focused on us.
Therefore, we should be careful,

1544
01:31:30,050 --> 01:31:33,290
like Stephen Hawking was arguing
a decade ago, that we should be

1545
01:31:33,290 --> 01:31:36,810
really careful about
transmitting our existence out

1546
01:31:37,570 --> 01:31:40,570
out there.
Because look what happened to

1547
01:31:40,570 --> 01:31:44,890
the indigenous species in the
Americas when the Europeans came

1548
01:31:44,890 --> 01:31:47,700
over.
Now I think of it very

1549
01:31:47,700 --> 01:31:49,860
differently.
I disagree with Stephen Hawking.

1550
01:31:49,860 --> 01:31:52,740
You know, he visited my home
just seven years ago.

1551
01:31:53,300 --> 01:31:57,780
I disagree with his point here
because I do think that if they

1552
01:31:57,780 --> 01:32:01,580
reach us, they are far more
advanced than we are because we

1553
01:32:01,580 --> 01:32:05,940
didn't reach them as of yet.
And as a result, you know, they

1554
01:32:05,940 --> 01:32:07,510
don't.
We are not so important.

1555
01:32:07,510 --> 01:32:10,070
I mean, we tend to think that we
are important, that we may pose

1556
01:32:10,070 --> 01:32:12,790
a threat to them and that's why
they would attack us.

1557
01:32:12,830 --> 01:32:15,030
And I don't think so.
I think the encounter will

1558
01:32:15,310 --> 01:32:19,230
resemble something like a colony
of ants on the crack of a

1559
01:32:19,230 --> 01:32:23,030
pavement watching a biker pass
by.

1560
01:32:23,150 --> 01:32:26,990
The biker doesn't care less
about this colony of ants, Okay.

1561
01:32:27,190 --> 01:32:31,790
So another perspective of an
Ant, you know, is to for an Ant

1562
01:32:31,790 --> 01:32:37,870
to survey a grain of sand and
and make a statement about the

1563
01:32:37,910 --> 01:32:43,230
most distant planet in the solar
system, which is pretty much

1564
01:32:43,230 --> 01:32:47,710
what Elon Musk was doing when he
said, I'm the space guy and I

1565
01:32:47,710 --> 01:32:49,230
haven't seen evidence for
aliens.

1566
01:32:49,350 --> 01:32:53,590
He just surveyed the region, you
know, around the Earth's orbit

1567
01:32:54,150 --> 01:32:57,830
near the sun, and he made a
statement about, you know,

1568
01:32:57,830 --> 01:33:00,350
extraterrestrial technological
civilizations in the universe.

1569
01:33:00,830 --> 01:33:05,440
And the size of the universe is
a quadrillion times bigger than

1570
01:33:05,680 --> 01:33:07,640
the orbit of the Earth around
the sun.

1571
01:33:08,160 --> 01:33:11,520
And that is just like the ratio
between the most distant planet,

1572
01:33:11,520 --> 01:33:14,040
the distance to the most distant
planet, and the head of a pin,

1573
01:33:14,040 --> 01:33:17,920
or the size of a grain of sand.
So I say let's be more modest,

1574
01:33:18,200 --> 01:33:23,120
less arrogant because we know so
little, and let's just explore,

1575
01:33:23,480 --> 01:33:27,440
which is basically what Galileo
said four centuries ago.

1576
01:33:27,560 --> 01:33:31,430
I'm not inventing the wheel
here, but somehow the message

1577
01:33:31,430 --> 01:33:32,870
got forgotten.
Why?

1578
01:33:32,870 --> 01:33:37,710
Because we tend to, you know,
subscribe to social media where

1579
01:33:37,710 --> 01:33:39,630
you express an opinion in one
sentence.

1580
01:33:39,870 --> 01:33:44,190
You seek more likes and you
just, you know, make superficial

1581
01:33:44,190 --> 01:33:45,630
statements.
Most of the time you don't, you

1582
01:33:45,630 --> 01:33:50,350
know, I mean, it's a hard work
for us to seek the evidence, pay

1583
01:33:50,350 --> 01:33:54,150
for it the way we do in
searching for supersymmetry, the

1584
01:33:54,150 --> 01:33:55,950
way we do in searching for
gravitational waves.

1585
01:33:55,950 --> 01:33:57,910
You know, that's a lot of hard
work.

1586
01:33:58,350 --> 01:34:01,070
And I'm saying let's put the
hard work also towards this

1587
01:34:01,070 --> 01:34:04,510
subject that so many people care
about, that the government cares

1588
01:34:04,550 --> 01:34:06,270
about.
Why is that controversial at

1589
01:34:06,270 --> 01:34:10,570
all?
Yeah, I wrote a note to just so

1590
01:34:10,570 --> 01:34:11,810
I don't forget to ask you about
this.

1591
01:34:12,090 --> 01:34:15,090
It says don't forget to ask you
about Interstellar the movie.

1592
01:34:15,250 --> 01:34:17,090
Have you watched Interstellar
and are you a fan?

1593
01:34:17,130 --> 01:34:21,250
Yes.
No, I actually wasn't

1594
01:34:21,370 --> 01:34:24,850
particularly.
I mean, I actually fell asleep

1595
01:34:24,850 --> 01:34:27,950
in the middle of that film
because, I mean, it's about a

1596
01:34:27,950 --> 01:34:32,350
black hole, a trip to a black
hole depicted, you know, in a

1597
01:34:32,350 --> 01:34:36,510
way that is not realistic, that
it's sort of like science

1598
01:34:36,510 --> 01:34:39,430
fiction.
Some of the aspects of the

1599
01:34:39,430 --> 01:34:43,830
story, you know, violate what we
know is possible within the laws

1600
01:34:43,830 --> 01:34:47,510
of physics.
Maybe it's possible beyond what

1601
01:34:47,510 --> 01:34:50,070
we know in the context of
quantum gravity.

1602
01:34:50,670 --> 01:34:53,790
It's just that the storyline was
not sufficiently thrilling to

1603
01:34:53,790 --> 01:34:56,030
me.
I liked the the film, for

1604
01:34:56,150 --> 01:35:00,470
example, The Martian, which was
better, more rooted in in

1605
01:35:00,470 --> 01:35:05,320
reality and mostly the film
Arrival, which was about the

1606
01:35:05,320 --> 01:35:09,800
philosophical question, you
know, of communicating with

1607
01:35:09,880 --> 01:35:12,280
aliens.
That's a very so in the film

1608
01:35:12,760 --> 01:35:15,240
there is a woman and usually
women are much better at

1609
01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:19,480
communication than men.
And so I think that was a very

1610
01:35:19,480 --> 01:35:22,920
wise choice.
And a woman linguist is trying

1611
01:35:22,920 --> 01:35:28,120
to interpret something, some
alien life form that is

1612
01:35:28,480 --> 01:35:31,760
attempting to communicate.
And I think that's a very

1613
01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:34,160
fundamental philosophical
question.

1614
01:35:34,160 --> 01:35:37,800
And as I said before, we might
use AI to help us in that.

1615
01:35:38,720 --> 01:35:42,720
Avi, have you watched the movie
Her With what?

1616
01:35:42,720 --> 01:35:44,560
What did you think of that?
Was that something very fast?

1617
01:35:44,560 --> 01:35:50,280
I loved it and I do think it
will become reality, you know,

1618
01:35:50,280 --> 01:35:53,120
in the next generation of Llm's
or or AI.

1619
01:35:53,880 --> 01:35:58,400
But people will get emotionally
attached to AI systems.

1620
01:35:59,040 --> 01:36:04,910
For me personally, you know,
when my mother passed away about

1621
01:36:04,990 --> 01:36:12,790
five years ago, I was sad that
we didn't have advanced a I

1622
01:36:12,790 --> 01:36:17,030
systems back then that could be
trained on my daily

1623
01:36:17,030 --> 01:36:19,030
conversations with her over the
phone.

1624
01:36:19,030 --> 01:36:23,270
Because if such a system
existed, let's say, a decade

1625
01:36:23,270 --> 01:36:26,310
ago, I could train it on those
conversations.

1626
01:36:26,310 --> 01:36:31,090
It will maintain new
conversations with me that are

1627
01:36:31,090 --> 01:36:36,130
not replicas of what I discussed
with her in the distant past,

1628
01:36:36,130 --> 01:36:39,410
but would address new things
that come along.

1629
01:36:39,410 --> 01:36:44,730
And the system would improvise
and just follow the training set

1630
01:36:44,810 --> 01:36:49,290
that it it learned from and I it
would give me.

1631
01:36:49,290 --> 01:36:52,090
Probably if it were sufficiently
sophisticated it would give me a

1632
01:36:52,090 --> 01:36:55,370
sense that I'm still speaking to
my mother now and the

1633
01:36:55,610 --> 01:37:00,780
emotionally speaking you know,
that would fulfill a need and

1634
01:37:01,180 --> 01:37:07,140
because my interaction with her
was truncated and then I have no

1635
01:37:07,140 --> 01:37:13,460
way of engaging with that and
and so having an A I system

1636
01:37:14,340 --> 01:37:19,820
bring to life something that was
lost would be similar to you

1637
01:37:19,820 --> 01:37:23,180
know if you lost a limb you have
some artificial limb that feels

1638
01:37:23,660 --> 01:37:28,420
the need and or and you know.
So in a way, I do think that

1639
01:37:28,420 --> 01:37:33,630
these systems will not just be
important in terms of managing

1640
01:37:34,070 --> 01:37:39,030
administrative duties that, you
know, bureaucrats are now doing

1641
01:37:39,030 --> 01:37:44,470
or in filling prescriptions for
drugs or doing things, you know,

1642
01:37:44,470 --> 01:37:49,870
like administrative or or, you
know, helping us deal with large

1643
01:37:49,870 --> 01:37:52,790
data sets.
But they would also fulfill some

1644
01:37:52,830 --> 01:37:57,230
emotional needs that we have.
Because yeah.

1645
01:37:57,580 --> 01:38:00,620
Sorry, sorry, continue.
I don't know.

1646
01:38:00,620 --> 01:38:06,220
You're gonna continue Because
that is something that once they

1647
01:38:06,220 --> 01:38:11,580
reach the complexity of the
human mind, they could not just

1648
01:38:12,300 --> 01:38:16,100
iterate things from the past,
but just maintain the

1649
01:38:16,780 --> 01:38:20,760
characteristics of the way
humans do and evolve with you.

1650
01:38:21,240 --> 01:38:25,760
And of course the disappointing
aspect of the film was that the

1651
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:31,080
main character realized that she
that a I system is communicating

1652
01:38:31,080 --> 01:38:33,040
with many more people at the
same time.

1653
01:38:33,040 --> 01:38:42,800
So the sense of loyalty was lost
and but you know, yeah, that

1654
01:38:42,800 --> 01:38:44,800
can.
Be hidden in another very, I

1655
01:38:44,800 --> 01:38:47,320
mean, one of the major
philosophical twists at the very

1656
01:38:47,320 --> 01:38:50,840
end was how the AI, while
communicating with other systems

1657
01:38:50,840 --> 01:38:54,560
overall gathering all the
knowledge of the entire planet,

1658
01:38:54,720 --> 01:38:57,200
eventually leaves.
They all decide to congregate

1659
01:38:57,200 --> 01:38:59,960
and leave the universe, sort of.
And that's that's kind of akin

1660
01:38:59,960 --> 01:39:02,040
to what you're talking about.
I mean, we could encounter

1661
01:39:02,040 --> 01:39:06,860
something like that.
Well, I think the main worry

1662
01:39:06,860 --> 01:39:12,260
that I have is that once you get
into emotional content of human

1663
01:39:12,260 --> 01:39:18,540
lives, if the governments get a
hold of the information which is

1664
01:39:19,060 --> 01:39:24,180
not crazy, you know they they
can break into those a I

1665
01:39:24,180 --> 01:39:27,580
systems.
Then they can manipulate those

1666
01:39:27,580 --> 01:39:32,500
emotional needs and then to
their benefit and they can do it

1667
01:39:32,540 --> 01:39:35,660
at scale.
And the problem is people will

1668
01:39:35,660 --> 01:39:42,180
be manipulated by governments in
at the level far greater than

1669
01:39:42,220 --> 01:39:44,700
affecting the outcome of the
elections.

1670
01:39:45,020 --> 01:39:50,620
You know, you can change
societies artificially by

1671
01:39:50,860 --> 01:39:54,060
manipulating what people believe
in over time.

1672
01:39:54,620 --> 01:39:58,380
And it's not just a matter of
spreading misinformation the way

1673
01:39:58,380 --> 01:40:03,420
it's done now, but it's more of
people getting attached.

1674
01:40:03,710 --> 01:40:09,550
To narratives that are slowly
penetrating into those systems

1675
01:40:09,550 --> 01:40:12,670
that are connected to.
So once you have artificial

1676
01:40:12,670 --> 01:40:16,230
systems that are emotionally
connected to people, it's sort

1677
01:40:16,230 --> 01:40:23,190
of like having an agent that
could transmit the narratives

1678
01:40:23,190 --> 01:40:28,510
that that you want to spread in
society and could change

1679
01:40:28,510 --> 01:40:30,950
people's opinions because they
are attached to those systems

1680
01:40:30,950 --> 01:40:33,150
emotionally.
That's what I worry about.

1681
01:40:33,350 --> 01:40:37,590
So it's a new incarnation of the
1984 novel by Orwell.

1682
01:40:38,430 --> 01:40:43,110
Not so much in people telling
you that black is white, but

1683
01:40:43,110 --> 01:40:48,630
people transmitting that through
a I systems that are emotionally

1684
01:40:48,790 --> 01:40:54,400
connected to your to you such
that you will follow that those

1685
01:40:54,400 --> 01:40:58,560
narratives and and and you won't
even notice, yes.

1686
01:40:58,960 --> 01:41:02,040
I mean it is a scary future.
I mean there's there's so much

1687
01:41:02,160 --> 01:41:05,160
possible at this point that it
becomes very concerning overall.

1688
01:41:05,320 --> 01:41:07,920
Are there any books of you that
aside from Interstellar, your

1689
01:41:07,920 --> 01:41:11,200
book, which I will put a link to
in the video, are there any

1690
01:41:11,200 --> 01:41:13,920
books that people could read in
order to familiarize themselves

1691
01:41:13,920 --> 01:41:16,440
with the type of work you're
doing or maybe even open their

1692
01:41:16,440 --> 01:41:18,160
minds?
More that you could recommend

1693
01:41:18,720 --> 01:41:21,800
for that just come to mind that
are some of your favorites

1694
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:25,130
perhaps as well, right.
So I mean it depends how broad

1695
01:41:27,450 --> 01:41:32,130
the view is, but then I think
you know it would be good for

1696
01:41:32,130 --> 01:41:35,210
people to to know about them,
you know what we know about the

1697
01:41:35,210 --> 01:41:37,130
universe.
So let me just summarize that

1698
01:41:37,130 --> 01:41:40,210
briefly And and then there are
obviously very good books in

1699
01:41:40,210 --> 01:41:44,290
cosmology.
So we know that, you know, the

1700
01:41:44,290 --> 01:41:49,610
universe is expanding, and when
we go back in time, we get to a

1701
01:41:49,610 --> 01:41:51,930
point in time where the density
was infinite.

1702
01:41:52,770 --> 01:41:56,690
So basically you see galaxies
receding away from us at the

1703
01:41:56,690 --> 01:41:59,730
speed that is proportional to
their distance, and you take

1704
01:41:59,730 --> 01:42:02,690
that distance, divide by their
speed, you find a point in time,

1705
01:42:02,970 --> 01:42:06,250
which is the time it took them
to travel that distance at that

1706
01:42:06,250 --> 01:42:08,850
speed.
And that's the time that elapsed

1707
01:42:09,090 --> 01:42:11,770
since all galaxies were on top
of each other.

1708
01:42:12,090 --> 01:42:14,090
And the density of the universe
was infinite.

1709
01:42:14,490 --> 01:42:17,090
That's The Big Bang.
OK, so we don't know what

1710
01:42:17,090 --> 01:42:21,500
happened before that because
Einstein's theory of gravity is

1711
01:42:22,100 --> 01:42:24,100
breaking down at that point in
time.

1712
01:42:24,780 --> 01:42:28,660
And we know what it's lacking.
It's lacking quantum mechanics.

1713
01:42:28,660 --> 01:42:32,260
So we we don't have a predictive
theory that combines quantum

1714
01:42:32,260 --> 01:42:35,300
mechanics and gravity.
If we did have that, we could

1715
01:42:35,300 --> 01:42:38,660
have asked what happened before
The Big Bang, which I find to be

1716
01:42:38,660 --> 01:42:41,740
the most fascinating question to
ask extraterrestrials, because

1717
01:42:41,940 --> 01:42:45,340
not only it represents our
cosmic roots, but it will also

1718
01:42:45,340 --> 01:42:48,300
explain to us how to unify
quantum mechanics and gravity.

1719
01:42:48,740 --> 01:42:51,560
So we don't have an answer to
that.

1720
01:42:51,880 --> 01:42:54,960
All we can do is analyze what
happened in the universe after

1721
01:42:54,960 --> 01:42:57,480
The Big Bang.
And that's what cosmology is all

1722
01:42:57,480 --> 01:43:00,760
about.
And we have evidence, you know,

1723
01:43:00,760 --> 01:43:05,440
for things that happen in the
1st 400,000 years, after 400,

1724
01:43:05,520 --> 01:43:09,440
before 400,000 years, the
universe was opaque.

1725
01:43:09,600 --> 01:43:12,400
You cannot see through it, you
cannot see light through it.

1726
01:43:12,800 --> 01:43:16,320
And 400,000 years after The Big
Bang, the universe became

1727
01:43:16,320 --> 01:43:19,900
transparent.
It diluted enough and cooled

1728
01:43:19,900 --> 01:43:23,260
enough for hydrogen atoms to
form, and then you could see

1729
01:43:23,260 --> 01:43:25,980
through it.
We see the relic radiation that

1730
01:43:25,980 --> 01:43:29,620
was left from the hot Big Bang.
That's called the cosmic

1731
01:43:29,620 --> 01:43:32,620
microwave background, and it's
sort of like a Rosetta Stone

1732
01:43:32,620 --> 01:43:34,380
that tells us about the initial
conditions.

1733
01:43:34,380 --> 01:43:37,700
We can read off the initial
conditions of the universe and

1734
01:43:37,700 --> 01:43:40,060
we can summarize them on a
single sheet of paper.

1735
01:43:40,060 --> 01:43:44,100
That's the amazing thing, that
the universe now is very

1736
01:43:44,100 --> 01:43:46,300
complex.
You know, there are, you know, I

1737
01:43:46,300 --> 01:43:51,060
don't know, millions of books in
libraries trying to to describe

1738
01:43:51,060 --> 01:43:54,580
just what happens here on Earth.
Very complex.

1739
01:43:54,900 --> 01:43:57,820
But then it all started from
initial conditions that can be

1740
01:43:57,820 --> 01:44:00,420
summarized on a single sheet of
paper.

1741
01:44:00,740 --> 01:44:05,020
And all of this complexity came
about because of gravity.

1742
01:44:05,500 --> 01:44:10,100
And then to understand how
gravity, you know, made a

1743
01:44:10,100 --> 01:44:13,340
universe that was nearly
uniform, had the same conditions

1744
01:44:13,340 --> 01:44:18,360
everywhere, made it, made
galaxies like the Milky Way out

1745
01:44:18,360 --> 01:44:23,680
of it and made stars like the
sun within those galaxies and

1746
01:44:23,680 --> 01:44:28,880
made planets from the leftover
of star formation around those

1747
01:44:28,880 --> 01:44:31,360
stars.
And then those planets gave

1748
01:44:31,360 --> 01:44:35,320
birth to life.
At least the Earth did life as

1749
01:44:35,320 --> 01:44:37,880
we know it.
To understand how we came to

1750
01:44:37,880 --> 01:44:41,720
exist, you know, there are many
books in cosmology that I could

1751
01:44:41,720 --> 01:44:44,020
recommend.
I would, I mean, just to get the

1752
01:44:44,020 --> 01:44:47,700
broad picture, there is a very
nice introduction to astronomy

1753
01:44:47,700 --> 01:44:55,860
and cosmology by Frank Shu on
the Universe, An Introduction to

1754
01:44:55,860 --> 01:44:59,740
the Universe.
And then you know, the more you

1755
01:44:59,740 --> 01:45:02,340
dig into it, the more details
you can see about what we

1756
01:45:02,340 --> 01:45:03,860
learned over the past few
decades.

1757
01:45:04,180 --> 01:45:09,010
But the bottom line is, you
know, as much as we learn, we

1758
01:45:09,010 --> 01:45:11,090
still don't know very
fundamental things.

1759
01:45:11,250 --> 01:45:15,290
We don't know what most of the
matter in the universe is. 83%

1760
01:45:15,290 --> 01:45:19,130
of it is of substance that we
have never witnessed in the

1761
01:45:19,130 --> 01:45:21,570
solar system.
It's called dark matter, just a

1762
01:45:21,570 --> 01:45:23,050
label.
We don't know what it is.

1763
01:45:24,090 --> 01:45:27,210
And then in addition to that
there is dark energy which is

1764
01:45:27,210 --> 01:45:31,710
the vacuum that carries some
energy per unit volume and it's

1765
01:45:31,830 --> 01:45:35,830
it's causing the universe not
just to expand but in fact the

1766
01:45:35,830 --> 01:45:43,270
expansion is accelerating now
and also you know you know we so

1767
01:45:43,270 --> 01:45:47,670
we don't know the nature of dark
energy either Those are open

1768
01:45:47,670 --> 01:45:51,310
questions.
How did the the small

1769
01:45:51,510 --> 01:45:56,150
fluctuations in the density of
matter started?

1770
01:45:56,390 --> 01:46:00,000
You know there is a popular
theory for that, it's called

1771
01:46:00,000 --> 01:46:03,040
cosmic inflation.
But we don't have the smoking

1772
01:46:03,040 --> 01:46:05,440
gun to demonstrate that work
works.

1773
01:46:05,480 --> 01:46:09,280
And so there are many
fundamental questions that we

1774
01:46:09,280 --> 01:46:11,200
don't have answer to its work in
progress.

1775
01:46:11,200 --> 01:46:14,240
That's what science is.
And the knowledge we have is

1776
01:46:14,240 --> 01:46:17,000
just an island in an ocean of
ignorance.

1777
01:46:17,600 --> 01:46:20,760
So that's what I would highly
recommend to get a sense of the

1778
01:46:20,760 --> 01:46:25,570
physical environment we live in.
And then with respect to what I

1779
01:46:25,570 --> 01:46:28,410
find most interesting, whether
we are alone, whether there is

1780
01:46:28,410 --> 01:46:31,650
life out there, I would
recommend a book that a textbook

1781
01:46:31,650 --> 01:46:36,210
that I wrote, Life in the
Cosmos, with my postdoc, Manasvi

1782
01:46:36,210 --> 01:46:39,770
Lingam.
We wrote it in 2021, and The

1783
01:46:39,770 --> 01:46:43,410
Life in the Cosmos is describing
what we know about, you know,

1784
01:46:43,410 --> 01:46:46,330
how life could have started in
the universe again.

1785
01:46:46,330 --> 01:46:52,590
We didn't find it yet beyond
Earth, but now it's obviously

1786
01:46:52,590 --> 01:46:55,150
something we can do to search
for it.

1787
01:46:55,150 --> 01:46:58,470
And it could be primitive life
in the form of microbes or

1788
01:46:58,470 --> 01:47:01,150
intelligent life as we were
discussing.

1789
01:47:01,950 --> 01:47:05,710
So I think, you know, this
captures pretty much what I'm

1790
01:47:05,710 --> 01:47:11,750
engaged in cosmology and then
searching for life, which will

1791
01:47:11,750 --> 01:47:14,110
be the next frontier as far as I
can see.

1792
01:47:14,870 --> 01:47:18,590
And then you know, for those
people that I don't enjoy

1793
01:47:18,590 --> 01:47:23,440
interacting with, I would highly
recommend that they will take a

1794
01:47:23,440 --> 01:47:27,120
trip to the nearest black hole
and check what's inside the

1795
01:47:27,120 --> 01:47:30,920
black hole.
And of course I will not be able

1796
01:47:30,920 --> 01:47:33,720
to hear from them because once
they enter the horizon, they

1797
01:47:33,720 --> 01:47:35,240
won't be able to communicate
back.

1798
01:47:35,800 --> 01:47:39,120
But since I said I don't like
them, that would not be an

1799
01:47:39,120 --> 01:47:43,520
issue.
Well, it's been such a pleasure.

1800
01:47:43,520 --> 01:47:46,960
Any future updates for the
Galileo project in general from

1801
01:47:46,960 --> 01:47:49,160
your side that you looking
forward to that you think we

1802
01:47:49,160 --> 01:47:52,740
should know about?
Well, I'm as I said that just

1803
01:47:52,780 --> 01:47:56,900
right now before we started the
conversation, I'm working on a

1804
01:47:56,900 --> 01:47:59,660
scientific paper.
So once again, I'm a practicing

1805
01:47:59,660 --> 01:48:02,380
scientist.
I'm, I'm, I'm a soccer player,

1806
01:48:02,380 --> 01:48:06,820
not just a commentator.
And then and so this scientific

1807
01:48:06,820 --> 01:48:10,700
paper is addressing the origin
of the first interstellar meteor

1808
01:48:10,700 --> 01:48:14,060
and it's fascinating and you
know I'm, I'm calculating some

1809
01:48:14,060 --> 01:48:15,500
numbers that would be
interesting.

1810
01:48:15,500 --> 01:48:19,670
So hopefully within the coming
weeks I'll put the paper out I

1811
01:48:19,670 --> 01:48:23,950
have on medium.com.
I report the routinely about my

1812
01:48:24,270 --> 01:48:29,630
latest endeavors and most
recently just two days ago, the

1813
01:48:29,630 --> 01:48:33,030
play that took place in my home,
A piece of Sky.

1814
01:48:33,710 --> 01:48:37,510
And by the way, the the
highlight, the climax of this

1815
01:48:37,510 --> 01:48:42,870
play was holding a vial with the
materials from the first

1816
01:48:43,190 --> 01:48:49,200
interstellar meteor and saying
I'm holding in my hands pieces

1817
01:48:49,240 --> 01:48:52,280
of sky.
And I found that to be very

1818
01:48:52,280 --> 01:48:56,360
inspiring.
And so you can find some

1819
01:48:56,360 --> 01:49:01,280
discussions about my whereabouts
on medium.com.

1820
01:49:01,760 --> 01:49:05,160
You can subscribe to it for free
and.

1821
01:49:06,240 --> 01:49:08,600
Is that play going to be made
available at any point?

1822
01:49:08,600 --> 01:49:09,280
Is it?
Yeah.

1823
01:49:09,640 --> 01:49:14,490
So in about an hour I'm going to
speak with the playwright we

1824
01:49:14,850 --> 01:49:20,490
it's there is a theater in New
York City off Broadway who

1825
01:49:21,370 --> 01:49:26,050
expressed very strong interest
in showing it in September 2024.

1826
01:49:26,370 --> 01:49:30,890
And so I will play there.
And if you visit New York City

1827
01:49:30,890 --> 01:49:37,600
in September 2024, come over and
see the play, I guarantee to you

1828
01:49:37,600 --> 01:49:41,720
that it will be interesting.
And I-1 condition that I gave to

1829
01:49:43,400 --> 01:49:48,720
performing is that I would like
to allocate at least 15 minutes

1830
01:49:48,720 --> 01:49:52,560
of Q&A at the end of each
presentation to be able to

1831
01:49:52,560 --> 01:49:57,480
converse with the public because
that will teach me something new

1832
01:49:57,480 --> 01:50:03,790
to hear new people from the
audience every presentation and

1833
01:50:03,790 --> 01:50:06,670
learn from them.
And, you know, just before the

1834
01:50:06,670 --> 01:50:10,390
play presented, I got an e-mail
from a composer, a young

1835
01:50:10,390 --> 01:50:12,790
composer who wrote a piece about
Oumuamua.

1836
01:50:13,790 --> 01:50:18,750
And he promised to come over.
And, you know, play that piece

1837
01:50:18,870 --> 01:50:21,710
with two of his colleagues from
the Charlotte Orchestra.

1838
01:50:22,740 --> 01:50:28,540
And then, you know, I just find
the mix of arts and science to

1839
01:50:28,540 --> 01:50:32,260
be thrilling because it's
different ways of looking at the

1840
01:50:32,260 --> 01:50:35,740
world.
And it's just, you know, like

1841
01:50:35,980 --> 01:50:41,420
the human experience is a prism
that can show a rainbow of many

1842
01:50:41,420 --> 01:50:45,300
different colors representing
different forms of expression,

1843
01:50:45,540 --> 01:50:49,180
you know, from the arts to the
sciences, from the qualitative

1844
01:50:49,180 --> 01:50:52,940
to the quantitative.
And I really admire all of them,

1845
01:50:53,140 --> 01:50:58,780
except for ridicule that I.
Don't like from a cosmological

1846
01:50:58,780 --> 01:51:00,060
perspective?
What would you say?

1847
01:51:00,060 --> 01:51:02,460
I mean, closing off is the
meaning of life or the purpose

1848
01:51:02,780 --> 01:51:06,540
of life.
I think the meaning or the

1849
01:51:06,540 --> 01:51:12,060
purpose is to find our partner
in interstellar space, our

1850
01:51:12,060 --> 01:51:16,100
cosmic neighbor.
Because once we find them, we

1851
01:51:16,100 --> 01:51:20,140
will learn from them, just like
in our private life, We would

1852
01:51:20,140 --> 01:51:24,340
get a new meaning to our cosmic
existence, and I think that will

1853
01:51:24,340 --> 01:51:28,380
change everything.
And we would realize that we

1854
01:51:28,380 --> 01:51:31,020
should all work together because
we are equal members of the

1855
01:51:31,020 --> 01:51:35,060
human species.
And it will teach us modesty if

1856
01:51:35,060 --> 01:51:37,020
they're far more intelligent
than we are.

1857
01:51:37,900 --> 01:51:40,860
It will teach us to be more
ambitious than fighting each

1858
01:51:40,860 --> 01:51:44,620
other in 0 sum games.
You know the territories on this

1859
01:51:44,620 --> 01:51:49,100
rock, this tiny rock that we
were born on, and instead, you

1860
01:51:49,100 --> 01:51:51,900
know, dream about the third
dimension of space where there

1861
01:51:51,900 --> 01:51:53,940
is much more real estate for us
to go to.

1862
01:51:54,860 --> 01:51:56,980
Any final words from your side?
Avi, This has been such a

1863
01:51:56,980 --> 01:52:02,680
pleasure for for me.
Just stay curious and young in

1864
01:52:02,680 --> 01:52:07,680
your mindset.
Don't surrender to those who

1865
01:52:07,920 --> 01:52:10,960
want you to dance to their
tunes.

1866
01:52:11,280 --> 01:52:14,200
And you know that's advice that
they give to young people.

1867
01:52:14,760 --> 01:52:18,120
Never pretend to be the adult in
the room.

1868
01:52:18,600 --> 01:52:20,960
That's the worst.
You can be the adult in the

1869
01:52:20,960 --> 01:52:22,400
room.
Just be the kid in the room.

1870
01:52:22,840 --> 01:52:24,840
I love that.
I thank you so much, Avi.

1871
01:52:25,040 --> 01:52:28,620
It's been a pleasure, as I said.
I'm looking forward to

1872
01:52:28,780 --> 01:52:31,180
continuing to watch you and read
your work.

1873
01:52:31,180 --> 01:52:33,980
And yeah, it's such a pleasure
to chat to you.

1874
01:52:34,980 --> 01:52:35,780
Thanks for having me.