Aaron Sloman: What is Life? Information, Intelligence, and the Ineffable within Science

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Aaron, your work, it spans AI,
philosophy of mind, biology,

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physics, all centered in one
powerful idea.

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And that is information.
Not just matter and energy, but

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rather that information lies at
the heart of what makes

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something alive.
So I think I thought we could

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start off this podcast by
exploring the central thesis, by

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first defining life through
information.

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Could you explain how your
conception of information, not

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in the similar set in the
Shannon sense, but in the way

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you describe it, departs from
traditional functionalist or

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computationalist slash
physicalist models?

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Yes.
Well, it's perhaps worth saying

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that the Shannon model called
Shannon worked for Bell

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Telephone Company, was based on
a technology for storing,

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transmitting and transforming
information in digital circuits.

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And therefore it's all based on
bits.

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And many people have thought
that all information has to be

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based on bits because of what
Shannon did, but they don't

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realise that that was just
because of the technology he was

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using and the purposes for which
he was using.

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The purposes for which
biological organisms use

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information are very different,
including controlling growth and

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movement and all kinds of things
that we will talk about.

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And one particular example we'll
talk about is the metamorphosis

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of an insect, which decomposes
part of the insect and then

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creates new structures and new
abilities and so amazing stuff.

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We can, we'll come back to that
later, but there's nothing like

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that in the Shannon system.
And so one should not expect

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Shannon information to be
terribly relevant.

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Many people do not understand
that.

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Shannon, I think, was not
confused, but many of you that

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admirers, I think, have been
confused by the success of what

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he did into thinking it was much
more general and much more

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widely applicable than it
actually is.

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And that's a serious mistake
that I think many people have

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made.
It when in your work you you

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sort of argue that the defining
feature of life isn't just

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metabolism or reproduction, but
the use of information.

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What?
What do you mean by that?

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Well, in I suppose information
is always about something.

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So you can't just have
information without having some

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context content, something that
is referred to something else

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about what the information is.
And that can vary in enormously

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wide range of ways in organisms.
And I think the earliest

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organisms were ones that had
only 1 cell.

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They were able to somehow
interact with the immediate

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environment using chemical and
other interactions.

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And gradually, as living forms
became more complicated than the

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number of cells increased and
the numbers of forms of

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information transfer increase
and so on.

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But all along there was the fact
that there was something that

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had to acquire information and
something that was using the

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information, sorry, something
from which the information was

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acquired.
And I, I, I believe that this is

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not widely understood and as a
role of people jumped to the

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wrong conclusions about how
animals work.

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So we could perhaps go back to
thinking about what the earliest

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organisms might have been.
Perhaps just single cells doing

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what, what would a single cell
want to do in a, in a world?

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Well, one thing might be to just
exist.

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And for that it might not have
to do anything at all, or it

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might need to exist and use up
energy in some way, or exist and

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grow or move or something.
And for each of these extra

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functions, if it need extra
competences.

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And somehow, over time,
biological evolution provided

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ways in which these simple
single celled organisms could be

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extended into more complex
structures, partly by combining

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with other single cells in
increasingly complex ways.

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Sorry, continue well.
Just going to say that.

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And that process continued not
only for a very long time, but

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in very different ways,
different parts of the planet.

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Who knows what happened on other
planets if if it did, and

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there's eventually a huge
variety of consequences of this

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or follow-ups to this very early
life.

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It's kind of life form.
But I think one of the things

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that is generally misunderstood
is the belief that somehow the

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synapses in brains of animals
are helping the neurons to do

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the real work of, of taking
information and deciding what to

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do and so on.
And the synapses enable the the

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neurons to connect with one
another because the way they

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join up with the synapses, and
I'm saying it's the other way

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around.
If the synapses are doing all

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the important reasoning,
decision making and so on.

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And the neurons enable them to
communicate with other parts of

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the body and get information and
transfer information.

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And so the belief that most
people have is back to front in

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you could say, and I have found,
I have not yet found anyone else

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who's exactly formulated that
idea, although various people

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have come close.
At the moment I can't remember

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them but come back later.
When you say that this, let's

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take it front to back.
If you think about this, the

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information being carried along
these synapses in what?

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How should someone who does not,
who let's say he's not a

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biologist, how should they sort
of imagine this type of

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information being carried?
Where is it?

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What is it?
What type of space is this

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existing in and how is it being
transmitted?

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Well, the synapse is a cell
which has molecules, and when

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you have lots of molecules, they
can form different structures,

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different forms of combinations
of structures which are forming

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or changing, and they can in
that sense differ quite a lot,

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even though they're all a single
cell with a lot of molecules.

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So what goes on in those cells
may vary from 1 cell to another,

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even though they may be close
together in the same Organism.

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So I'm now saying that somehow
the formation of these

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collections of molecules and the
ways in which they behave and

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interact encodes information
about all sorts of different

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things, including information
about the animal's history.

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Also information about the
current environment, which is

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coming in through various
channels, information about

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goals and so on, and those forms
of information that need to be

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combined in various ways.
I'm suggesting all make use of

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chemical processes, biochemical
processes deep down in synapses,

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and that people who think it's
all done by neural networks are

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just getting it badly wrong.
OK, let's break this up into

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living systems and then non
living systems because you, you

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contrast things like non living
systems like tornadoes or rivers

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to, to that of, of, of things
like life.

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And why, in your view, have our
scientific models been so

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inadequate when it comes to
capturing informational

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dimensions of life?
And, and I think while we're at

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it, how would you define life?
How would I define life?

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Well, I don't think there's any
simple definition.

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It's what we have many examples
of with a huge variety of forms

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in which the various instances
of this life are acquiring

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information and using it both to
transform themselves in various

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ways by growing structures in
themselves and whatever, and

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also by linking up with other
such organisms.

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But also they transform the
environment to meet their needs.

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Now tornado can transform the
environment, but it doesn't look

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at the environment and find out
what's there and work out how it

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needs to be changed in order to
enable a tornado to achieve

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something that it's trying to
achieve.

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Tornadoes cannot represent
possible futures for themselves

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and use that in order to make
choices.

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They are very complex
interactions of processes going

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on, but not with that kind of
use of information that we find

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in life.
And the same thing about

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volcanic structures and
continental drift, where you

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have very large structures in
the earth moving around in

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various ways.
They don't have any goals.

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They're not trying to achieve
anything.

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They're just doing what happens
because of the physical forces

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and the configurations they're
in.

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Whereas organisms have goals,
they have needs, they have

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preferences, and they're
acquiring and using information

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in order to achieve goals,
preferences and also just to

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stay alive.
Do do you think that we perhaps

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need a philosophical
reorientation?

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So almost like do you see the
emphasis on biological

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meaningful information as as a
flawed ontology?

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So what I'm trying to ask is, is
do you think that we should

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consider information as more
fundamental where it's it's

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fundamental throughout
space-time matter.

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This is what we should be
looking at when we're talking

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about anything.
Well, I'm not sure quite sure

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what the weight of the word
fundamental is, but it's

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certainly all pervasive in life.
You could not have life without

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information.
But the information is of many

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different kinds.
It serves many different

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purposes.
It's used in different

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mechanisms and the various ways
of combining information or

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different for different parts of
the same Organism and for within

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different organisms and also
between organisms and non

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organisms.
Organisms can manipulate matter

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that does not use information or
want to do anything, but the

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organisms can use the matter to
do something that the Organism

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wants, and it manipulates matter
for that purpose.

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What one of the questions I had
for you was the challenges your

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work has on physics.
For example, when you make the

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claim that, Oh well, when you
discuss the evidence behind

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insect metamorphoses, where
organisms disassemble and then

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reassemble itself with minimal
energy in spaces, how does this

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pose a challenge for physics and
how does it sort of portray all

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the gaps within physics?
Well, I don't know about all the

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gaps, but some gaps.
The So what?

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What happens during
metamorphosis is that an

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Organism that has a lot of
structures that have been

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developed, possibly in an animal
that has been crawling around

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and feeding on matter that's
around it, eating stuff,

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digesting in, building
structures and so on.

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And then after a while something
triggers a process that begins a

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very complex change of
structures.

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So this Organism that that had
all sorts of parts starts

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dissolving some of those parts
and reusing some of the

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molecules to build new parts
that were not there before.

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For instance, in the case of an
animal that previously was

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calling, it might build wings
which it did not have

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previously, and it might build
new feeding structures.

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For example, animals that sort
of crawling in and essentially

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chewing food in their needed
environment may develop an

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ability to fly to a flower where
it feeds by putting a long

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proboscis down into the nectar.
And in the process it also helps

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the flowers.
It doesn't know it's helping the

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flowers, but it picks up pollen
and so on.

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And when it goes to the next
plant, it can transfer some of

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that pollen.
And in that process where it's

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helping to, to helping the plant
to reproduce and, and share

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genes and so on, it doesn't know
it's doing it.

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The, the insect doesn't have any
goals of that sort, but it

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happens to have evolved in such
a way that achieves that.

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So there's a lot of cooperative
Co evolution going on in this

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this mindless world, almost as
if there were intelligence

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controlling it.
I'm not saying there is any

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intelligence controlling it.
I'm saying there are amazing

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mechanisms that act as if there
are intelligence controlling it.

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And those are things that we
don't yet understand.

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And it may well be that the
forms of control cannot yet be

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accounted for by current
theories in fundamental physics.

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For instance, the forms of
control needed to decompose the

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parts of a of a cocoon of an of
an Organism in the Cancun.

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How?
What is there in physics that

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says you can tell bits of this
structure to start decomposing

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themselves and to move around to
form new structures?

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And I suspect that there isn't
anything at present that gives a

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complete explanation of that.
I have a colleague whom I may

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have mentioned to you in e-mail
messages, who is a scientist

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with whom I became friendly when
we were students originally, who

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has had similar ideas.
But he also does not know what

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those mixons might be.
Tony Liggett, Anthony Liggett

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he, we met his students at that
point, he was more a philosopher

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and doing history of, of
philosophy and so on.

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But he later switched to physics
and he eventually ended up with

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a Nobel Prize for his work on
on, on in physics.

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But we kept in touch and every
now and again we would meet up

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and talk about these things and
to some extent degree and

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sometimes perhaps disagree or at
least we we might feel that

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there are things that can't be
explained and agreed that can't

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be explained, but not have
ideas, similar ideas about how

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to move towards explanations.
And I don't think he had ever

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thought about metamorphosis
until I started challenging him

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to provide explanation for the
which he I don't think he or

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anyone else at the moment can
do.

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It's incredible how the people
you meet as a student can can

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fundamentally shape the way you
are and it reminds me of the

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story you once told about when
you were a student.

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00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,160
This was before you went into
philosophy and how much you used

238
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,000
to go into the religious
lectures and just sort of try

239
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,280
and counter argue until one day
one of the your philosophy

240
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,120
friends told you to read a book
by Russell and you were like,

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00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:54,560
OK, this is a pretty fascinating
journey.

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00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,200
What is that like to to, to to
finally read a philosophy book

243
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,440
that really takes you and grips
you, not necessarily changing

244
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,720
your view into some sort of a
religious dogma, but showing you

245
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,880
that actually philosophical
arguments play a very huge role

246
00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:15,520
within science?
Well, he, I think he let me the

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Bertrand Russell's history of
science.

248
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History of science, Yeah.
And when I read it, at first I

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thought Russell must be the
greatest scientist who'd ever

250
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,000
lived.
But gradually I started finding

251
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things that didn't quite satisfy
me, and I started wondering what

252
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,160
else there might be and learning
about other things that Russell

253
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,720
didn't mention.
And one of the things came

254
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through Immanuel Kant and David
Hume.

255
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I'm not sure I can remember the
precise details, but David Hume

256
00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:04,520
was examining what theologians
and other people had claimed and

257
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,800
had written.
And he came up with a kind of

258
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:15,840
slogan that your theories should
either be things that can be

259
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:21,800
based on observation, where you
go around and see what is there

260
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,760
in the world or whatever.
Or alternatively, you can

261
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:33,680
collect lots of observations and
then combine them using forms of

262
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:40,720
logic and, and using logical
induction and so on.

263
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:46,600
And he had a slogan.
Unfortunately I can't now

264
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:54,680
remember exactly what it was,
but he he did that to challenge

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these people.
And Immanuel Kant came across

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what Hume had done and he said
this work came from his dogmatic

267
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,920
slumbers because he realised
that not all the forms of

268
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,080
knowledge that we have and that
he can't was interested in.

269
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,720
Could be handled by the
mechanisms that David Hume said

270
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:21,760
were OK.
In particular can't thought of

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00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,560
forms of reasoning that could
not be based on collecting

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00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:32,640
statistical data and then
finding patterns in the

273
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statistics.
Examples were, for instance,

274
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:41,400
discovering that if you have a
glove that fits onto a right

275
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:47,920
hand, you cannot make it fit
onto a left hand, go from a

276
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,000
right hand to a left hand
without first turning it inside

277
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:57,480
out, and then it will work.
And, and what kind of thing is

278
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:03,640
that impossibility?
And he, he said he, he thought

279
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,800
that this was very hard to
explain.

280
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,160
And I think he used a phrase
like concealed in the depths of

281
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,320
the human soul.
We would never be able to

282
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:14,880
understand what's going on
there.

283
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,880
And what I've been trying to do
is to kind of bring it out from

284
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:24,080
the depths, but inspired by Kant
and using many of his examples

285
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,520
and transforming them, but
trying to combine those ideas

286
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,080
with ideas that I'm getting from
other people, including

287
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,720
physicists and and some of my
own hunches and so on.

288
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,800
You've been you've been at it
for so many years and and your

289
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,160
work has been incredible.
You've done so much within these

290
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:47,600
fields of biology, physics,
philosophy of mind, AI, how your

291
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,880
work at the moment when you go
onto your website and you see

292
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,680
that you you've been posting
actively as a work in progress

293
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,960
in your later years now and now
going through what you're going

294
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,800
through currently.
How's the journey been when you

295
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,000
see that, the incredible amount
the body of knowledge you have

296
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,760
and how your ideas are changing
and shaping as you currently

297
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:14,440
produce content right now?
Well, one of the problems is

298
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:20,000
that as my brain brain slides
downhill, it gets harder and I

299
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,640
have to make more use of
computational aids of various

300
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:28,040
sorts.
And that is a problem.

301
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:36,240
But another, another factor is
that I've come to the feeling

302
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,480
that there's something deep
going on that we haven't

303
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,920
understood and that nobody so
far has understood.

304
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,600
And I'm not claiming that I've
understood, but I'm, I'm groping

305
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:51,960
towards something that perhaps
someone cleverer, younger with

306
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,520
ideas that I haven't had will be
able to come up with, with some

307
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,760
new, new, new answers to some of
these questions.

308
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:05,720
But these are questions about
the the process we've been

309
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,400
talking about and how they're
controlled and what it is in the

310
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,680
physical world.
What is it in the nature of

311
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,840
fundamental physics that makes
it possible for them to work?

312
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,800
And I leave open the possibility
that there may be have to be

313
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,800
changes in fundamental physics
that I can't anticipate.

314
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,320
I can't myself claim to be a
physicist, and I can't say he

315
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,280
has a bit of physics that we may
need to change.

316
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:36,000
But perhaps someone looking at
this work who has a deeper

317
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,680
knowledge of physics will be
able to look at it and say, yes,

318
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,720
this is now what we need to
change in current physics.

319
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,760
To show how the processes of
metamorphosis can be controlled

320
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,680
in that amazing way that goes on
inside, the decomposition of an

321
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,880
insect inside, and then the
reconstitution of the new forms.

322
00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:01,040
Maybe someone will come up with
something, but I can't offer you

323
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,600
a suggestion as to what it might
be.

324
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,400
And if I could, I would be that
great new genius, but I'm not.

325
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,320
How do you think some people
like Professor Josh Bongard,

326
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,920
Michael Levin, their work has
been sort of has it been adding

327
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,320
to your ideas in any way or or
changing them?

328
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:33,360
I think by and large, they
produce examples where I find

329
00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:39,480
there's something missing.
And so that gives me a new kind

330
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:44,440
of application or a new
challenge to say what exactly

331
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,280
have they not got right?
What is missing in what they're

332
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,200
saying, and what form could the
answer take?

333
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,720
And I may not be able to answer
that, but by so posing the

334
00:24:54,720 --> 00:25:00,520
challenge, I'm hoping I might be
able to provoke cleverer younger

335
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,120
brains to come up with ideas.
And I may be able to understand,

336
00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:08,040
or may not.
But maybe through that kind of

337
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:15,600
interaction with the community,
through things like what you're

338
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:23,480
just organising, may come
entirely new ideas and that in

339
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,880
1020 or 100 years from now we'll
be able to trace it back to some

340
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,560
of these things.
But they will be very different

341
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,040
from anything we can imagine.
Well in details.

342
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,480
Some of the details may be very
different from anything we can

343
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,120
imagine now.
One of the concepts you talk

344
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:42,760
about, and I think you might
have mentioned it briefly, was

345
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,720
information with outputs.
You know, in part of the

346
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,440
critical idea behind your work.
Could you give us an example of

347
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,720
of what this might look like?
How would information without

348
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:58,240
bits exist and operate in
systems without any symbolic

349
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:06,280
encoding?
Without bits, well, I don't

350
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:12,160
think that the earliest
organisms, these single celled

351
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:17,080
things, had bits in anything
like what we have in our

352
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,200
electronic systems, but they did
have molecular structures of

353
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:27,160
various sorts.
And those molecular structures

354
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:33,080
were based on aspects of
fundamental physics about which

355
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:40,560
I perhaps don't know enough, but
it may be that fundamental

356
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:45,000
physics needs to be enlarged and
nobody yet knows exactly what it

357
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:50,120
is that it may enable those
fundamental particles in the

358
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,680
very earliest organisms to
actually they do.

359
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,560
But whatever it was, it's clear
that in the very earliest

360
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,800
organisms, there were kinds of
interactions going on that

361
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:07,240
enabled things to come together,
to work together, to do things

362
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:12,920
together, and to interact with
their environment in a

363
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:19,360
cooperative way, which was able,
which enabled them to form new

364
00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:23,040
structures and to do things that
they couldn't previously do.

365
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:30,320
So if someone can go back and
say something new about the

366
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:39,560
prehistory of science, the the
very earliest forms of of not

367
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,400
life, but precursors of life or
proto life of what you want to

368
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:48,120
call it on the planet, that
might come up with entirely new

369
00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:51,880
ideas that nobody else, and
certainly not I, have so far

370
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,160
been able to articulate.
But I can't at this stage say

371
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,160
what that would look like.
If I could, I might get a prize

372
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,280
from some sort from that.
You and Jackie Chappell propose

373
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,920
a theory of metaconfigured
genomes, which is a framework

374
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,200
for understanding and how
development and learning are

375
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,160
intertwined.
Could you walk us through what

376
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,760
what this what this theory is
and how it advances our

377
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,960
understanding of both evolution
and intelligence?

378
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,760
How does a metaconfigured genome
do that?

379
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,520
Or can it do that?
Yeah.

380
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:43,040
Well, meta configured means that
it has abilities that depend on

381
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:51,160
something more than just what's
there in the genome as normally

382
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,680
understood.
And what that something more is,

383
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,840
is basically what I'm saying.
We need to find out.

384
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:05,680
And I'm not yet able to say what
it is, but it's, it will involve

385
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:12,480
abilities to interact in complex
ways, in ways that allow things

386
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,880
to combine to achieve things
that they could not achieve on

387
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:21,720
their own using mechanisms that
have yet perhaps to be

388
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:28,000
discovered.
And maybe next year you'll have

389
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,680
an idea of what that might be.
And you can thank me for putting

390
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,840
you into, but I don't know,
maybe someone else will, who

391
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,000
knows?
Well, that then that brings me

392
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,240
to sort of the topic of
cognition before language, when,

393
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,040
when you talk about cognition
arising, well the ability to

394
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:53,200
share information and use it
long before language as part of

395
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,680
an evolutionary process.
How does that then affect the

396
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:01,120
way we perceive other mammals,
animals in general and the way

397
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,760
we consider them in terms of do
we, do we attribute

398
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,000
consciousness to this being
cognition, intelligence?

399
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,640
How do we define and
differentiate between these when

400
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,200
looking at ourselves and maybe
other animals as well?

401
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,600
Well, it's clear that there are
very many intelligent animals,

402
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,560
but with different sources of
intelligence.

403
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:31,360
And so the intelligence of a of
a horse is very different from

404
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,040
the intelligence of a
chimpanzee.

405
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,960
Horses cannot climb through
trees.

406
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:43,760
On the other hand, when a new
horse is born, that horse can

407
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:51,320
very quickly go get up and stand
and go and suck its mother.

408
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,800
And this is really quite
important because animals like

409
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:01,920
horses and deer and so on may be
chased by predators and the

410
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:08,120
young need to be able to run.
And the mothers cannot pick them

411
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:13,120
up and carry them the way that
in many other species the the

412
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,560
parents can pick up and carry
the young.

413
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,280
A horse cannot carry a baby
horse.

414
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:24,560
So from a very early stage, the
horse, even just after birth,

415
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,440
has to be able to get up and go
and suck.

416
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:37,120
And that's is part of an amazing
process of biological evolution

417
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:42,080
that I don't expect anybody
currently understands in detail.

418
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:48,800
But it it makes possible this
ability of the horses to, to the

419
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:55,120
newborn horses to run to the
herd, but they still may need to

420
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,960
be protected.
I mean, when, when a collection

421
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:04,920
of, of deer or whatever is being
chased by other animals, they

422
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,760
may stand around their young and
help to protect them.

423
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,160
I think elephants can do some of
that as well, but they can't

424
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,080
pick them up and carry them and
so on.

425
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,640
So they have to be able to help
them in that way.

426
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:23,920
But I don't think I'm saying yet
anything very specific.

427
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,680
I'm just saying there's a lot of
research to be done to work out

428
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:33,880
the details of how all of that
works, and maybe that will

429
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,040
change some of some aspects of
Current Biology in ways that

430
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,480
nobody can currently understand
or anticipate.

431
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,320
Or maybe it'll just be a small
changes that that will not make

432
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,640
a huge difference.
I suspect there may be some deep

433
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,480
changes required, but I can't
say what they are.

434
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,560
When you look at intelligence
systems, at what point do you

435
00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:01,000
start to sort of differentiate,
not to say that you do consider

436
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,880
this a binary distinction, but
at what point do you look at an

437
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,640
intelligence system and think,
OK, this system is possibly

438
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,200
conscious or has some sort of a
what is it like to be

439
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,760
experienced versus something
that doesn't?

440
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,080
I don't like the phrase What it
is like to be.

441
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,360
I don't remember where they came
from.

442
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,480
Thomas Nagle.
Yes, a long time ago.

443
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,160
Well, is it like anything to be
an earthworm?

444
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:38,640
I don't know what that means.
But the, the, the thing that we

445
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,440
can ask is what kinds of
information can such a thing, an

446
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:48,560
earthworm or whatever acquire
and use and, and how does it use

447
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:54,720
it and what does it use it for?
So what's the information, how

448
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,400
is it acquired, how is it
transformed and what is all that

449
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,600
used for?
What does it achieve?

450
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,520
And that'll differ enormously
across different species.

451
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,920
And so there's no simple answer.
There'll be lots of a wide

452
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,960
variety of species, species
specific answers and there may

453
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,400
be some patterns which we can
find if we start sending them

454
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,440
and saying there's a, there's a
group of organisms that share

455
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:27,040
this kind of way of acquiring
and using information.

456
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:28,639
And there are others that don't
do that.

457
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:34,719
They do something very different
and as a result their life forms

458
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,360
can be different.
They can live in different

459
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,639
environments, for example,
living in trees as opposed to

460
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:48,480
living in the ground and so on.
So there's a huge amount of

461
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,199
filling in of depths in our
current knowledge that might

462
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:57,040
come from further work of the
sort that I'm trying to do.

463
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,160
But I've only I think that I've
only started and I'm hoping

464
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:08,240
other cleverer younger people
will will be able to extend long

465
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:13,360
after I'm not able to.
Well, you mentioned trees and a

466
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:18,360
part of your work you highlight
the astonishing feats that birds

467
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,600
or insects, I mean the things
they can do, navigating dense

468
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,280
forests, flying through moving
branches and doing all these

469
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,000
amazing things with these tiny
little brains.

470
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,640
What do you think we're missing
in terms of neuroscience or even

471
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:36,160
AI for?
For example, can machines ever

472
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,000
match biological complexity?
Do you think that we'll ever

473
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,200
reach a point where a machine
can do something similar to a

474
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,880
metamorphizing?
Is that even a word?

475
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:52,080
A metamorphosising insect.
Well, if by a machine you mean

476
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,960
something made in a factory out
of plastic and wire and metal

477
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:03,080
and so on, I doubt that we'll be
able to do something of that

478
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,680
sort that can do most of the
things that animals can do.

479
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:13,840
They may do small subsets, but
there's one thing to be able to

480
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,320
make such things and another
thing to be able to explain how

481
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:22,360
the existing ones work.
And I'm perhaps more focused on

482
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:27,480
trying to explain how the
existing things work rather than

483
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,840
claiming we could make new ones
like that.

484
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,240
Although it may be possible in
future laboratories, that was

485
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:38,160
thought that I can't right now
imagine that they will be able

486
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:45,280
to somehow or other start
assembling from collections of

487
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,000
chemicals of some sort or
whatever.

488
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,320
Assembling organisms.
I suspect not.

489
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,440
I think again, they'll always
have to start from what nature

490
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:58,040
has produced and perhaps combine
those in new ways to produce new

491
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,040
things.
But I'm not, I don't know.

492
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,040
I mean, you can never know what
future scientists will think up.

493
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,240
There was something there that I
think I was supposed to go into

494
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:15,760
and I didn't follow up.
Is there a gap you're aware of

495
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,920
in what I was saying?
Well, the the thing about trees

496
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,960
came when I was I just happened
to be looking out of a window

497
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:32,160
and noticing some butterflies or
other things that that they seem

498
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,120
to be moving through the trees
while the trees were swaying a

499
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:42,520
lot.
And I wondered, are they able to

500
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,360
keep out of the way of these
moving things or do they they

501
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:50,840
just get pushed around and it
doesn't matter because they're

502
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:56,480
soft enough and they don't get
damaged and they survive?

503
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,880
And I couldn't really tell.
So I was left with an open

504
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:05,120
question there about whether
there have clever ways of using

505
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,640
some sort of insect intelligence
to react to all this motion in

506
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:15,160
order to protect themselves or
whether they are just built in

507
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,720
such a way that they don't get
damaged because they are soft

508
00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:22,640
and flexible and so on.
And they don't need to be using,

509
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,320
they don't need to use any
special kind of intelligence.

510
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,120
There may be people who already
know the answer to that, but at

511
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:30,800
the moment for me, it's just a
question.

512
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,160
I don't know of anybody else
who's they've asked that

513
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:34,120
question.
Let's see.

514
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,800
When you think about them flying
through these trees and doing

515
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,960
what they're doing, a part of me
was thinking about you.

516
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,080
You speak about how organisms
can store and manipulate

517
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,680
information externally.
Does does this sort of align

518
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:58,160
with the 4E cocci idea of
extended or embodied cognition?

519
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,360
Do you do you feel like this
informational perspective can be

520
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,880
called some sort of an extended
or embodied information?

521
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:14,480
Well, it's very clear that for
many organisms, they do create

522
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:22,040
information outside of
themselves, either for use by

523
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:27,960
other members of the same
species, by using signals of

524
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:40,920
various kinds, and so on, or by.
Sharing in some ways with other

525
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,800
species that they interact with.
Where I've given the example I

526
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,520
gave previously was flowers and
and insects.

527
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:55,680
In the they they not only the
the insects cannot only get the

528
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,480
nectar from the flowers, they
also get some information from

529
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,360
them.
Because of they, the flowers

530
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:04,920
have developed ways of
attracting.

531
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,600
The insects, so in some sense
the flowers are saying are

532
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,520
providing information saying
come to this place if you're an

533
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,080
insect, a flying insect of of
the sort.

534
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,960
And then you'll be able to get
your, your, your, your juice or

535
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:27,080
whatever you're looking for
nectar and they don't say.

536
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,560
And therefore you'll also get
some of my pollen.

537
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,240
That's a side effect.
The insect isn't particularly

538
00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:38,280
incident getting pollen or doing
anything with it, but the, the,

539
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,840
the flower needs it, the insect
to collect the pollen and

540
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,280
transfer it when it goes to the
next flower and so on.

541
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:49,080
So I think I'm answering your
question, but with a bit of hand

542
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,920
waving going on.
While reading a lot of your

543
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,680
work, a question that came onto
my mind was, are you trying to

544
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,240
move toward a unified theory of
life and mind?

545
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,800
Is this sort of an overarching
goal that you have right now is

546
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,840
to build a sort of unified
theory that integrates biology,

547
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,480
information theory, AI, and
physics, almost like a theory of

548
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:14,640
everything?
What are your thoughts on that?

549
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:23,360
Well, it would be nice to be
able to claim that I'm at least

550
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:30,800
contributing to that.
I don't know whether I have a

551
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,440
right to say that, but if I I
suspect that if there ever is

552
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:40,120
such an complete theory, I was
some of the a lot of the things

553
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,160
that I've been talking to you
about and been writing about.

554
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:48,600
So will be important fragments
of such a theory, but they might

555
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:54,680
have to be revised and improved
and extended in order to play a

556
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,760
full role in the whatever final
theory, if there ever ever is a

557
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,840
final theory, comes out and that
would be a.

558
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,280
It would be nice to think that
one could contribute to

559
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:12,120
something like that, but at the
moment I don't.

560
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,720
I just don't know.
And you may have a view about it

561
00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:18,080
perhaps, but we we can wait and
see.

562
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:23,480
When you I'll put a link to your
what is life and and all the

563
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,640
papers that you originally try
and put as much as possible.

564
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,840
But as you write this, when you
when someone else clicks the

565
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,280
link has a look at it as a read.
What would you like them to take

566
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,400
away most from the work you've
done so far?

567
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:42,760
Well, I'm hoping that some of
them will discover gaps that I

568
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,240
haven't noticed and then ask
questions that I haven't asked

569
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:52,440
about how to fill the gaps.
Also, some of them may have been

570
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:57,240
seen the question that I've
asked and see that the answers I

571
00:42:57,240 --> 00:43:03,160
have tentatively proposed are
not deep enough or have gaps or

572
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:07,200
have flaws of some sort, and
they may then be able to come up

573
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,960
with suggestions for improving
the answers.

574
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:18,360
So I see this is a possible
collaborative perhaps long term

575
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:24,120
process over time.
And what I hope is that our

576
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,200
educational systems and
political systems and other

577
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:34,040
systems do not interfere too
much with the ability of humans

578
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:38,360
to collaborate in in that sort
of way, in in extending human

579
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:44,520
knowledge for good, interesting,
worthwhile purposes, as opposed

580
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,920
to what are all, all the many
other nasty purposes that human

581
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:49,520
knowledge is being used for at
the moment.

582
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,640
I think it's, it's pretty
admirable when, when, when

583
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,600
you're, when you ask someone, I
mean, what they take away from

584
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,800
your work and they, and they
main answer is just to point out

585
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,000
your flaws.
It's a, it's a good way to be a

586
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,120
scientist.
It's a, it's a great answer.

587
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:11,520
I just thought I'd mention it
when you, when you think about

588
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,960
the missteps, because I'm
talking about you being a great

589
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:16,560
scientist.
And that's a great way to think.

590
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,720
There's obviously missteps in
science and.

591
00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:21,800
Sorry, I missed that.
This is obviously what.

592
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:26,800
Sorry, Aaron, there's obviously
in science there are missteps

593
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,680
and backs and so moving
backwards, let's say.

594
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:31,400
Mistakes.
Yeah, right.

595
00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:34,040
Yeah.
And when you think about our

596
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:40,960
current assumptions, when you've
once said to be careful of what

597
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:47,080
people claim is obviously true.
And I think that's something

598
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,080
that we should always be careful
and look out for because if

599
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,600
someone claims something that's
obviously true, we should always

600
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,560
be sceptical.
What do you believe are some of

601
00:44:55,560 --> 00:45:00,400
those assumptions within AI,
biology or cognitive science

602
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:05,320
where it is just a fundamental
truth that people work on their

603
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:10,040
dissertations, their PhDs,
etcetera, but is a is an error

604
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,680
in thinking that needs revising
urgently?

605
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:19,640
Well, the one that I have really
heavily emphasised in some of

606
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:24,760
the stuff we've been talking
about is what seems to be an

607
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,240
obvious truth to many people,
and namely that neurons do most

608
00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:33,720
of the reasoning and the
synapses just help the neurons

609
00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:38,680
to communicate and collaborate.
And I'm saying it's the other

610
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:43,760
way around and they've got it
completely wrong or almost

611
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,840
completely wrong in some way
there.

612
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,560
There are probably others that
if I sat and thought for a while

613
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:59,960
I could come up with.
But I think at the moment, the,

614
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:08,680
the, the, there may be no people
who are asking questions of a

615
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,960
sort that might relate to the
things that we've been talking

616
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:18,400
about and the things that relate
to what's going on in these

617
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:23,440
complex biophysical and
biochemical systems and what

618
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,880
might be happening in other
parts of the universe.

619
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:32,160
And how that what might differ
and how that difference might

620
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,200
relate to some of what we've
been talking about.

621
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,680
And I have no idea.
I can't.

622
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:41,440
I'm just raving my hands.
I can't say.

623
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,560
This is how things might be
different in another part of the

624
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,080
universe from what I've now been
talking about.

625
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:55,280
Instead of the biochemical
constituents of organisms and so

626
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,200
on that we now have, there might
be something different going on

627
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,760
in other parts of the universe.
I have no idea if that makes any

628
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:04,560
sense at all or whether it might
come out.

629
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:10,680
But perhaps one day someone
might be able to, to provide an

630
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,120
answer that somehow, either by
doing thought experiments or by

631
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,160
collecting evidence from, you
know, things that get sent out

632
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,920
to other parts of the universe
and send back messages.

633
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:25,400
And and somehow these messages
might include clues that sort of

634
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:30,720
things happening of a type that
nobody has ever thought of in

635
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:32,960
this part of the universe.
But I don't know.

636
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,640
Yeah, it, it reminds me of Carl
Sagan and when they sent out

637
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:42,640
Voyager into space with our our
golden record just to try and

638
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,720
carry out some information if
ever a species got spotted and

639
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,720
interpret what we wrote.
But it begs the question, I

640
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:52,240
mean, are we going to be
speaking the same language?

641
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,200
How, how important is that going
to be when when it comes to

642
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:57,560
encountering something like
that?

643
00:47:59,120 --> 00:47:59,760
Yes.
How?

644
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,240
How do you start communicating
with something, with a language

645
00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:06,360
that's so different, very
different from anything you've

646
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:11,720
ever met before?
And there may be techniques that

647
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,600
that I haven't thought of or
that some people have thought of

648
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:22,960
that.
But there may already be things

649
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:27,120
around us that we don't notice,
we're not aware of that are

650
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,920
using forms of language that we
don't understand and we can't

651
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,520
communicate with them.
Although I don't have seen any

652
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:37,640
specific reason to believe that.
But it's, it seems theoretically

653
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:42,240
possible in some way.
But right now all I can say is

654
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,240
here are here's a collection of
ideas.

655
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:51,800
Here are ways I can suggest for
extending those ideas by doing

656
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:58,200
new thought experiments, by
trying out new combinations of

657
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:03,320
the ideas and so on.
And perhaps if enough people do

658
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,200
that in flexible and cooperative
ways and challenge one another

659
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,280
and talk to one another, maybe
some entirely new things will

660
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,800
come out of the results.
And maybe you will be a part of

661
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,560
the process that makes that
happen.

662
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,400
Well, hopefully we'll see.
We can see what happens.

663
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:26,000
Aaron, what would you call this?
This informational process, this

664
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,880
idea of the synapses controlling
all the information rather than

665
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:34,520
the the the neurons themselves,
How What would you call this in

666
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,040
terms of a theory or a proposal?
When you introduce this idea to

667
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:43,240
people, how do you define it?
Well, I don't think I've given

668
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:46,720
it a name, a label, if that's
what you mean.

669
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:53,480
Maybe tomorrow or next week I
might think of a label, but the

670
00:49:55,600 --> 00:50:00,920
phrases I've been using are the
closest I can get to that.

671
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:07,160
Phrases like form the forms of
communication that I've been

672
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:13,840
talking about that that involve
collaboration across different

673
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:18,720
kinds of mechanisms.
But I'm just bumbling away

674
00:50:18,720 --> 00:50:21,000
without really coming up with an
answer to your question, I

675
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,360
think.
No, I will look hopefully, but

676
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,320
at some point you won't come up
with a nice catchy name.

677
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,480
It always has to have some sort
of a catchy name and then people

678
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:33,800
sort of grip, get a grip of it a
bit more, but something else.

679
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:36,320
Have a nightmare tonight?
I'll come up with a name and

680
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,000
I'll e-mail it to.
You send me that e-mail and I'll

681
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,520
try and make it the the, the
thumbnail of the the video.

682
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:46,200
OK, When you think about the
mind body problem as a

683
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:51,240
philosopher, as a scientist, how
do you conceptualize this

684
00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:53,400
problem?
Do you think it is a problem?

685
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,240
Do you think there is a mind
body problem?

686
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,840
And don't worry, I know the
podcast is called Mind Body

687
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,160
Solution.
I will not take offence even if

688
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,720
you think there is no problem
but but what are your thoughts

689
00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:07,040
on the on this concept of the
mind body problem?

690
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:13,280
Well, it's clear that animals
have bodies of various sorts.

691
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:17,840
It's clear that at least some
animals have minds.

692
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:24,440
But if having a mind is having
the ability to acquire you

693
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:29,960
transform and process
information, then maybe in some

694
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:36,600
sense all animals have minds of
a sort insofar as they do those

695
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,640
things.
And so there will be not one

696
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,920
problem, but many problems of
about explaining how those

697
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,960
different sorts of minds work.
Explaining what the different

698
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,520
sorts of information or that
they have access to, explaining

699
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,720
the different ways they can be
used, explaining the different

700
00:51:53,720 --> 00:51:57,200
ways in which they can
collaborate and compete,

701
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:01,280
explaining the different ways in
which they can evolve into new

702
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:05,640
forms, which you can do things
in in different ways and so on.

703
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:12,080
And these are all, there's a
kind of recursive structure

704
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:16,320
there that I can't express very
simply, but it's somehow

705
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,520
interacting, generating and
producing more, which will

706
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:23,400
interact and then and generate
more and more stuff.

707
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,320
And I don't know how much longer
that will continue, but I

708
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:31,720
suspect it can continue for a
great deal, much more than it

709
00:52:31,720 --> 00:52:36,080
has been happening so far.
And exactly what it looks like I

710
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:41,080
can't obviously can't predict,
but it I expect some of the

711
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,880
things I've been talking about
will appear as important

712
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:50,920
fragments of what comes out.
But exactly what else is there

713
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:52,560
as well?
I can't say.

714
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,120
Earlier you mentioned how much
you in in order to remember

715
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,160
things you sort of using, you're
extending your cognition by

716
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,560
using these tools to assist you
these.

717
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:08,240
How do you see this as an
augmentation to the human race

718
00:53:08,240 --> 00:53:11,440
in the future when the more
augmented we become with with

719
00:53:11,720 --> 00:53:14,840
with our technological
environment as an extension of

720
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,080
our minds?
Do you think AI will play a

721
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,720
fundamental role in that?
How do you foresee the future of

722
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:25,000
AI and its impact it'll have on
on humankind and just

723
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:29,680
speculative?
Well, I think I've more or less

724
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:31,200
said everything I have to say
about that.

725
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:33,680
I'm sure AI will go on being
extended.

726
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:40,520
I'm sure there will be lots of
forms of shallow AI which are

727
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,480
used in perhaps in factories, in
controlling production ponds or

728
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:49,720
whatever.
Lots of use of stuff by Shannon,

729
00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:54,480
for example, and other things as
well.

730
00:53:55,400 --> 00:54:02,280
Maybe more use of biochemical
mechanisms in various kinds of

731
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:04,120
production.
I'm sure there's a lot already

732
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:09,040
going on that that I only know
vaguely about, and maybe if I

733
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:10,960
sat down and thought a bit I
could come up with some

734
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:18,200
examples.
But I see this all as an ongoing

735
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:23,320
process.
It's it's by no means seems to

736
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:28,040
me to have come to its end.
I don't have the impression that

737
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:34,960
everything has been done that
can be done by humans or humans

738
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:38,640
and their tools and so on.
I think of it as something that

739
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:44,000
will continue to expand and and
diversify and I'm sure that will

740
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:48,040
continue for many years.
When it comes to telos or

741
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:50,840
teleology, do you do you sort of
see something like that

742
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:52,680
occurring where it's it goes
beyond us.

743
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,440
This has nothing to do with us
and we're just like a stepping

744
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:58,240
stone that's going to take
that's going to take this.

745
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,120
I don't know this this
experience forward into some

746
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:08,600
sort of a different realm.
By that, I think you're hinting

747
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:12,960
at the idea of something else
having purposes, and the things

748
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,760
we do help to serve the purposes
of that something else.

749
00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:20,080
At the moment I have no reason
to believe there is any such

750
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:25,440
thing that could have such
purposes that could use us in

751
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,080
the way that we're being used at
the moment.

752
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:33,000
I don't say that I can prove
there isn't any such thing, or

753
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:36,840
that there cannot be any such
thing, just that right now I

754
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:40,040
have no reason to believe there
is such a thing.

755
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:46,560
But if there is, it's helping to
make a mess of the world at the

756
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:51,320
same time as generating a lot of
amazing new technology which is

757
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:54,320
being used in all sorts of
different ways, including

758
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,000
enabling things like this
interaction to happen.

759
00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,200
And so on.
Yeah, it's like a it's sort of a

760
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,640
give and take.
So if we do see that way, if we

761
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:04,680
do see it that way, we're
obviously going to have to take

762
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:08,400
the bed with it and then and
sort of justify why this why

763
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,880
this has happened along the way.
Yeah, it could be very

764
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:12,520
unnecessary, but I guess it it
it.

765
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,760
With that being said, Aaron,
when you look back at all the

766
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,240
work you've done, the work
you're currently doing, what

767
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:24,920
what do you think people should
know about your work that we

768
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,720
might have not touched on in
this conversation so far because

769
00:56:27,720 --> 00:56:30,280
there's so much to cover.
And I tried to focus this on a

770
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,320
specific on this on the paper
you sent me, but there's so much

771
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,480
you did send me prior to that
that I wish we could touch on.

772
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,160
But it's obviously so much work
over so many years that we can

773
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:43,480
touch on different podcasts.
But if we're to towards the the

774
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:45,320
last end of this conversation,
at what?

775
00:56:45,720 --> 00:56:48,000
What part of your work would you
think is most important to

776
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:53,920
highlight and bring up now?
Well, as you're saying, there is

777
00:56:53,920 --> 00:57:00,800
a lot.
I think I would like to know

778
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:06,120
that in the near future, some
really clever people will be

779
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:10,240
looking at the stuff I've most
recently been thinking and

780
00:57:10,240 --> 00:57:18,320
writing about in connection with
the the forms of transformation

781
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,120
that can go on and the way in
which the forms of

782
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:23,680
transformation can be themselves
transformed and so on.

783
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:28,760
And some of the limitations of
what's going on in there, and

784
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:33,400
also whether that challenges
current fundamental theories in

785
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:38,240
physics.
So I'm hoping that perhaps

786
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:42,240
somebody will come up with
answers to those questions.

787
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:46,720
We'll be able to say, yes, this
bit of current quantum physics

788
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,760
is wrong.
We didn't realize that this bit

789
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:52,400
needs to be changed or
something.

790
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:56,080
I can't give any example because
I don't know enough about

791
00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:03,640
current quantum mechanics.
But there are a few people who

792
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:06,640
have been claiming that current
quantum physics is mistaken and

793
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:13,320
needs to be altered in some way.
Anthony Leggett, whom I

794
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:15,400
mentioned, the old friend is, is
one of them.

795
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:21,160
And there's another one who is
often in the news, I've

796
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:26,480
temporarily forgotten his name.
You may be able to remember whom

797
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,920
I'm thinking of.
He, he has this view that the

798
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:35,720
universe has perhaps a
succession of cycles.

799
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,880
And there's a there's a
succession of big bangs.

800
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,280
And each time the universe
evolves in some way and goes

801
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:48,360
through a whole lot of things.
And then you know what I'm

802
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:50,400
thinking of.
I think I do, I'm just trying to

803
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:54,960
get a statement to my head.
Yeah, well, we can maybe later

804
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:58,240
look up the name and we'll come
share it online and you can add

805
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:00,320
it somewhere somehow to.
Try and put a link.

806
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:05,320
There, Yeah, yeah, but he and
he's been doing this for quite a

807
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:09,000
long time.
But at the moment my impression

808
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:14,280
is that there's quite a little
hand waving there without enough

809
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:18,880
substance.
And he has a collaborator who's

810
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:22,960
a neuroscientist who talks about
stuff going on in particular

811
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,280
bits of, of, of the nervous
system.

812
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:29,560
But I'm not convinced that they
can do what he thinks they can

813
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:37,760
do.
And so it's, it's possible that

814
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:42,640
some of that work will, will,
will be improved on in some ways

815
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:44,840
as a result of the, some of the
things that you and I are

816
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:47,400
talking about and Tony Leggett
perhaps and others.

817
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:50,200
But at this stage I can't say
how.

818
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:57,480
Do you feel that certain fields,
or let's take quantum mechanics

819
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:00,040
for example, do you think that
theories they're trying to

820
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:05,080
incorporate quantum mechanics
into trying to understand is

821
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:08,200
something like information?
They sort of reduce it to

822
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:10,200
something they just don't
understand, and you find it a

823
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:14,720
little bit annoying that people
try and explain everything using

824
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:17,240
quantum mechanics because we
really just don't understand it.

825
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,520
Well, quantum mechanics is
obviously very important and

826
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:29,640
there are various aspects of it.
There's a book called What is

827
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:32,880
Life written by a a famous
physicist.

828
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:35,080
I've temporarily forgotten his
name now.

829
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:37,240
Owen Schrodinger.
That's right.

830
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:41,360
Thank you.
And he talks about aspects of

831
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:45,640
biology that he thinks might
require extensions to

832
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:53,000
fundamental physics, including
the use of catalysts in

833
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:54,800
processes of reproduction and so
on.

834
01:00:55,800 --> 01:01:00,240
And then he later modified and
extended his ideas and so on.

835
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:09,680
Now I was inspired by his work,
but that took me in different

836
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:13,640
directions because I ended up
postulating that there were

837
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:17,520
things that he hadn't lost and
hadn't answered, and the things

838
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:20,320
that I was talking about
addressed some of those things

839
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:24,400
that he hadn't.
But I wondered what he would say

840
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:28,960
if I told him about these.
And, and I don't know, really.

841
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:34,440
He might say, Oh yes, now that
adds, but you have left out

842
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,320
something.
And this bit of stuff that you

843
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:40,680
don't know about in physics will
be relevant to that part of your

844
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:43,600
problem that's not yet answered.
I don't know.

845
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:46,920
There might be more
interdisciplinary collaboration

846
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:51,400
that would help to extend what
I've been doing in important

847
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:56,400
ways that I could not possibly
do on my own and maybe nobody on

848
01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:01,480
the planet at the moment can do.
But some bright person reading

849
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:04,160
all the stuff and thinking about
the other people will come up

850
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:09,640
with ideas and and then come up
with a a way of of extending

851
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:13,760
things that makes a big
difference to the answer to the

852
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:16,240
questions.
Well, I think it's pretty.

853
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:19,040
I think it's pretty cool.
It's almost beautiful when you

854
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,400
think about it.
I mean, having Schrodinger when

855
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,400
he writes what is life?
You, you look at this and try

856
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,640
and and answer it and then think
of so many new questions to ask

857
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:29,520
and answers to some of the
questions.

858
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:32,280
And then you're also writing
about what is life at this point

859
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,640
in your life and asking for the
same thing from the next

860
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:38,320
generation moving forward.
There's always going to be

861
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:39,760
someone who's going to add to
that.

862
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,200
Ask what is life?
Answer your question, ask a few

863
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:44,600
more questions.
And that might, I'm not saying

864
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:47,960
there is a telos, but that could
be a weird way of, of having

865
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:50,760
some sort of a purpose within
informational systems, just

866
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:54,200
trying to consistently generate
answers to these fundamental

867
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:56,760
questions.
And I think it's pretty cool.

868
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:59,560
And even though I'm, I'm not
calling it a teleological thing,

869
01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:02,640
but it is the beautiful process
that's happening at the moment.

870
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:07,000
And if it can go on forever
getting more complex, that's

871
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:09,880
would be nice.
But it may be that there reaches

872
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:12,880
a point where there's nothing
more to add because you go

873
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:15,040
around in circles.
If you if you add anything,

874
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:17,960
you'll find someone somewhere
has already thought of that.

875
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:21,720
And this is what it does, but it
doesn't do enough.

876
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:27,120
Yeah, the Aaron, it's, it's been
an incredible conversation.

877
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:29,960
I mean, only today for some
reason I've I realised that you

878
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,720
studied in South Africa, which
is pretty crazy.

879
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:34,600
Do you ever, do you ever miss it
back down here?

880
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:38,680
Not really.
So do do I ever look what sorry?

881
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:42,280
I said only today did I realize
that you actually studied in

882
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:45,080
South Africa.
Oh, at Cape Town University,

883
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:48,160
yes, that's where I had my first
degree.

884
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:54,000
And some of this all started
because I was an atheist and I

885
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:57,200
used to go to meetings of the
student Christian society.

886
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:02,600
And I thought that the people
who were telling these students

887
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:07,320
things that they believed, I
thought were, were, were making

888
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:11,400
unjustified claims.
And I started asking questions

889
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:13,880
and challenging them and saying,
how can you know that sort of

890
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:16,680
thing?
And one of the other students

891
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:23,360
who was there who was also
Christian, but he was, he's very

892
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:26,880
intelligent.
He said, you're asking these

893
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:32,480
questions, but you might be able
to formulate better questions if

894
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:36,040
you read this book.
And he lent me Bertrand

895
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:38,160
Russell's book, The History of
Western Philosophy.

896
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:42,240
So I took that away and started
reading it.

897
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:46,720
And the more I read I came, the
more I believe Bertrand Russell

898
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:49,560
is the greatest philosopher,
whoever lived.

899
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:56,280
And that went on for a while
until I started having new

900
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:59,040
thoughts and thinking, no,
Russell hasn't answered this

901
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:00,800
question.
He hadn't answered that question

902
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:04,040
and that triggered new thoughts
and so on.

903
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:08,440
So there, there's there's been a
lot of books and people and

904
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:11,880
things inspiring me and then
triggering new things that

905
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:14,800
challenge the things that had
previously inspired me, which

906
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:17,520
then challenged me to do more
things that and then me to

907
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:19,080
challenge more things that
challenged me.

908
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:24,960
And so there's been a lot of
feedback in the system making it

909
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:27,120
more and more complex as time
went on.

910
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:31,960
And I suspect that across
collections of minds, that

911
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:35,400
process could continue.
I think it's, it's, it's

912
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:38,480
wonderful in the sense that many
people when you ask them when is

913
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:41,640
the last time you changed your
mind, they tend to not really

914
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:43,000
know.
But in your case, you've

915
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:45,040
actively done this for so many
years.

916
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,760
It's a mock of a great scientist
and a true philosopher in that

917
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:52,200
you're able to change your view,
change your perspective, adapt

918
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:55,240
and move forward without taking
it personally.

919
01:05:56,040 --> 01:06:01,160
Yeah, we're thinking about
metamorphosis in in insects

920
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:04,080
happened only a few weeks ago
for the first time in the

921
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:09,720
precise way that I did it and.
And that caused me to realise

922
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:12,280
that there's something going on
there that I had never asked

923
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:14,480
about and I didn't know anybody
else had ever asked about.

924
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:19,160
And I haven't found anybody
who's that, that I've, you know,

925
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:23,960
in what I've been looking at
that can explain how the process

926
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:27,960
of metamorphosis decomposes the
structures that are already

927
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:32,480
there and then reorganises them
to form these entirely new

928
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:35,400
structures.
But maybe there is something

929
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:37,840
that I don't know about.
So far I haven't found it.

930
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:40,600
Well, if anyone's watching or
listening finds anything and

931
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:43,000
send, send us the links.
Send me the links and I'll, I'll

932
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,160
definitely forward it to you.
Aaron, thank you for joining me.

933
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:48,400
It's been such a pleasure.
It's been a privilege.

934
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:50,040
Any final words from your side,
Aaron?

935
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:52,520
Anything you you want to say
before we close up?

936
01:06:53,720 --> 01:07:00,000
Well, I need to thank you
because it's, it's very nice for

937
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:03,400
me to know that someone is
taking these ideas and helping

938
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:09,280
to helping me to communicate
them using the technology that

939
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:11,520
you've got that I can't operate
and so on.

940
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:18,160
And maybe that will help to
extend the ideas through other

941
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:19,680
people taking it on and
following it up.

942
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:22,440
And perhaps they will do it
through you by saying, can we

943
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:24,560
have a meeting?
Because we like, I'd like to

944
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:27,200
talk to you about some of the
things that you did then and you

945
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:29,920
could take them further and
maybe you invite me along later

946
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:32,200
to comment.
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly the

947
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:34,200
purpose of this channel.
And that's why I started.

948
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:38,160
It was primarily to initially
was because it was a great

949
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:40,480
opportunity to pick the brains
of some of my favorite

950
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:42,880
scientists.
But then also to realize that it

951
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:46,120
would be a great way to get
their work out there to maybe

952
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:50,000
people who either would never
have appreciated it or now

953
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:53,080
finally get to hear more about
it in a different way.

954
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:55,640
And this is precisely the
purpose.

955
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:58,520
And I hope someone watching this
comes up with some sort of a

956
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:00,640
brilliant idea and they can
share it with me.

957
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:03,000
And if I can share it with you
and have you back on the show

958
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:05,800
and discuss it, it would be it
would be exactly what this

959
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:08,120
podcast is for.
Right, I don't know how much

960
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:11,280
longer I'll be able to function,
but while I can, I'm willing to

961
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:13,040
try.
Try my best to try and make it

962
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:16,479
happen as soon as we can.
OK Thanks once again.

963
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:19,000
Really appreciate your time and.
Thank you.